August 18, 2025 • 41 mins
The journey of Lewis and Clark stopped in, what is now, Oregon for the winter. The Lewis and Clark National Historical Park holds the environmental and historical conservation so that we can all continue to learn and understand their journey.
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(00:01):
Our journey takes us to a spotthat celebrates another journey
through journals and historicalrecords.
This duo and their team helpedto chronicle the life and
resources of the West and thepark with their namesake is
keeping the historical andenvironmental conservation
alive.
Join us as we explore Lewis andClark National Historical Park.
(00:24):
I'm your host, Missy Rentz, andthis is the Parks podcast.
Missy (00:31):
In today's episode, I am joined by John Burpee.
John is the park superintendentat Lewis and Clark National
Historical Park.
John, welcome to the Parkspodcast.
Jon Burpee (00:41):
It's real pleasure to be here.
Thanks for having me, Missy.
Missy (00:44):
Absolutely.
I'm gonna jump into some parkstats.
Lewis and Clark NationalHistorical Park is located in
Astoria, Oregon.
It was dedicated on October30th, 2004, but it was really a
re-designation when multiplesites came together.
The original being Fort KlattNational Memorial, which was May
(01:06):
29th, 1958 at the time, in 2004,George W.
Bush was president of the UnitedStates.
The park is 621 acres.
In 2024, there were 267,118guests that came to visit the
park.
And some interesting facts.
(01:26):
The park commemorates thewestern most point of
Merriweather Lewis and WilliamClark's journey.
Lewis and Clark created whatthey called an extraordinary
friendship with the nativetribes that lived in what's now
Oregon and Washington, and thatstarted a beneficial trading
system there.
The park is home to 14 speciesof vertebrates, 100 birds,
(01:49):
including the endangered brownpelican, 10 amphibians, 20 fish,
three reptiles, and.
It's a very popular stop on amigratory bird journey, and I
think this is like such a, thiswas like one of my like surprise
and delight parks.
I popped in and fell in love,John.
Jon Burpee (02:08):
I, I feel that as well.
This is one of the places thatas a kid I first visited and it
drew me in and that's when itwas the tiny little fort clots
up National Memorial.
And now being back with thisexpanded park it's kind of a
Cinderella, right?
It's just it fits justperfectly.
It's got a good nature ofhistory and a really stunning
(02:29):
expanse of nature as well.
Missy (02:31):
So why is it important that Lewis and Clark.
National Historical Park is partof the National Park system.
Jon Burpee (02:38):
In many ways when you look at the, this early
Republic period, there's not amore a story that stands out
more than the Lewis and Clarkexhibition.
This is a pretty, for theperiod, this is a pretty.
Dante thing that Jefferson asksLewis and Clark to do, just want
you across the continent by landthrough a lot of areas that we
(02:59):
don't understand.
We don't know who owns.
You're going to interact with alot of indigenous people who
probably don't speak anylanguage that you can speak or
vice versa.
We want you to look for all thegood stuff that, potentially
could help us as a nation.
We want to learn scientificinformation.
Jefferson's a very scientificminded guy.
And you should be able to on$2,500 and make it back.
(03:20):
Of course they spent quite a bitmore in reality.
But it's a story of America's.
Boldness in its early days.
And I think that in its ownmakes it incredible.
But I think the significantstories of the indigenous people
that they intersect with, Ithink is a story that we
(03:40):
increasingly need to understand.
Missy (03:43):
I agree with you and I, there's so much of what you just
said that I wanna get into, soI'm just gonna tick away
Jon Burpee (03:49):
Perfect.
Missy (03:50):
Okay.
First, I wanna talk about,because we talk about it was re
designated.
What were the elements that cametogether?
Jon Burpee (03:57):
Yeah.
It's very funny.
This initial spot, this FortKatset National Memorial the
site traditionally understood tobe where Lewis and Clark and the
expedition spent their winnerwas joined together actually
about.
20 years after its founding withthe Salt Works.
So an area that essentiallyLewis and Clark sent men down to
for about seven weeks to boilsalt water 24 hours a day to
(04:20):
extract salt.
And as we were coming up to thebicentennial of the Lewis and
Clark expedition they.
There were other sites that weknew were associated with the
story.
And so the folks that were hereat the time and the local
congressional supporters decidedthat Cape Disappointment this
area that truly is when you cansay that Lewis and Clark.
(04:42):
The expedition got to the oceanon the North Shore.
It's an amazing site run by ourpartners, the Washington State
Parks.
The Middle Village or axilla orStation Camp has multiple names.
I prefer Quick Lum, which is theChinook name.
This.
Summer village site that theyspent essentially 10 days at.
And decided the fate of the restof the entire journey at that
(05:05):
moment.
And then a spot that Clarkdescribed as a named dismal
niche.
Six days, probably six of themost miserable days that they
spent there.
And those sites were broughttogether along with the far end
of.
The trail to the sea to becomethis new national historical
park.
And so it provides a lot ofopportunities, recreational and
(05:29):
educational because of all theseresources.
Missy (05:32):
And I have to be honest because when, anytime I think
about Lewis and Clark and I lookback on the stories that I've
heard, I grew up in Virginia.
So we really focused on theCivil War.
There wasn't my, there wasmention, but very little and
then, I listened to Undauntedcourage and things like that.
But what sticks in my mind arethe stories of the adventure.
(05:53):
And I almost forgot I did forgetuntil I was researching and
visiting your park is that therewas a purpose.
It the adventure might be whathooked me in the book, but there
was a purpose in.
Collecting information.
Jon Burpee (06:08):
Absolutely.
You look Jefferson you beingfrom Virginia, there's an
absolute connection of course.
Lewis being a Virginia and afamily friend of the Jeffersons
and his personal secretary inthe White House.
But, for Jefferson who saw theUnited States in grand terms he
saw this as an opportunity tobring together multiple
interests, right?
(06:28):
The interest of the UnitedStates to find a practicable way
to the west.
He was looking for a easy way tothe west.
They didn't find that but theydid find a practical way to the
west that actually did then leadto future settlement.
Future growth and exploration.
So the interest of thegovernment.
Brought together with the ininterests of the economic side
(06:51):
of the country what furs can beobtained, what are mining
opportunities where's good landfor future farms and then
brought together withJefferson's deep, intense
scientific interest.
And all those things had to cometogether really to make this
happen when Jefferson letsCongress know that we're gonna
do this.
(07:11):
He sends essentially a secretmessage.
It's not, something that he putsin a State of the union, nothing
like that.
And it's announced more as afate, a comp lead than anything
else.
We're going to do this.
It was a absolute passionproject for Jefferson but also
serve the needs of the nation aswell.
Missy (07:30):
And when you visit the park, there's some like
historical reference.
Journals and just the stuff thatyou all have.
Can you share a little bit aboutwhat people might see when
they're there
Jon Burpee (07:41):
yeah.
yeah.
The site itself, that initialFort Tup area coming up to the
hundred 50th anniversary localfolks got together and created a
replica based upon the journalsof the fort.
And still, in many ways, that'sthe thing that draws folks here.
It's that moment where you canimagine yourself in history.
The thing that I think.
(08:02):
That has developed most in themost recent years is beyond that
historical moment of standing inthe replica fort.
And like this time of year, wehave it decked out in period
goods and it, there are peoplein period clothing.
But beyond that, it's theability to experience this in
ways that Lewis and Clark andthe Expedition did.
(08:23):
But the native people'sexperienced it for, many years
many years prior to that andstill do with them.
And that's by foot and paddling.
And we get a lot of folks whoare coming here to canoe and
kayak to walk the, in the FortKlap unit, we have about 16
miles of trail.
And so again, this combinationof history and nature that I
(08:44):
find so.
Appealing to get to work here?
Missy (08:47):
And you talked a, you talked about the the natives and
the relationship that they hadwith them, because so often in
the parks that I've talked tothe relationship with with
natives what be it, nativeAmericans or just the people
that they ended up taking theland from, it's contentious and
it's.
It's sad and scary and all thosethings, but that's not the
(09:10):
relationship that they hadformed out here.
Jon Burpee (09:13):
No.
One, one of my favoriteactivities with visitors is we
stand and we imagine thegeography, right?
And this geography.
The mouth of the river whichdrains one sixth of the
continent.
It, it has an, it's a highway tomany indigenous cultures.
And we stand there and weimagine the people to the north
and the people to the south longbefore any Europeans arrive.
(09:36):
And we talk about how do thepeople to the south get things
from people to the north?
The people here, the Chinook theChinookan, speaking peoples
anybody from the interior whowants something from the ocean,
they get it through the Chinook.
So long before, Lewis and Clarkarrived long before Robert Gray,
who's the first non-nativeperson that enters the Columbia
(09:57):
River that we know of, at leastin 1792, before any of that
happens the Chinookan peoples,they're traitors.
They do really well at this.
By the time Lewis and Clark showup, there's been at least 13
years of interaction directlywith the Chinook and the Klatts
of Boku, the Kala the wheel, thepeople of this end of the river,
(10:19):
where they've been trading.
And I think there's somethinginteresting in the, when Lewis
and Clark arrive, Clark writesthat the trade goods they have
left.
What you imagine this right?
The trade goods.
They have left can fit on twohandkerchiefs, and it, these are
bigger than, aren't necessarilyhandkerchiefs that our grandpas
(10:39):
may be carried around.
They're a little larger, butstill compared to all the other
traders that were here, Lewisand Clark's arrival enclosed,
that have essentially rotted offof them.
They're replacing it withleather compared to the guys on
the ships with all those goods.
I think that, first of all, itwas, a different thing for the
(11:00):
local peoples.
But when you look at thehospitality of the lower Chinook
that I'll say extends to thisday as a culture and as a people
the hospitality that they tookwith Lewis and Clark was pretty
impressive.
Doesn't mean that Lewis andClark didn't necessarily bring
their own cultural ideas withthem and at times found things
(11:20):
that were within Chinookanculture that they didn't like.
But it led to a much differentinteraction than we often think
of when there's that interactionbetween the newcomers and the
people of the land.
Missy (11:33):
And a lot of that relationship and what the
Chinooks taught the Lewis andClark and the whole crew, like
that's in the journals.
That's, we know a lot about thatrelationship.
Jon Burpee (11:45):
Yep.
Absolutely.
And it's, I think that's one ofthe great things there.
There are a lot of expeditionsthat the United States will send
over the years to lots of placesacross the west and even around
the world.
There's a great expeditioncalled the Wilkes Expedition,
1841.
Lewis and Clark's is so vividbecause of the journals because
of how it's recorded.
(12:06):
And it's Lewis and Clark and afew of the enlisted men that we
have the journals from.
It's truly neat to be able tosee and then combine it with
what we've learned from, ourindigenous partners.
And there are so many overlapsbetween the story.
And I think that's really, as ahistorian, that's super
satisfying.
Missy (12:24):
I think one of the things I love about the way the park
service tells the story is itcomes let's see, like fairly
unbiased, like just telling thestory and sometimes the story
evolves over time because welearn things over time, but that
has to feel really good when thetwo sides of the story are
(12:47):
matching, are in sync.
Jon Burpee (12:48):
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
It, it's the understanding ofthat moment in time and those
two sources matching but thenputting it into the context of
what would become and that's theother part of this is a, a.
It's the adventure side of, it'san uplifting story.
The overall, the interactionshere are really, but it is a
harbinger of change that happensfor the clat up and the chin and
(13:12):
the peoples of this area.
And it comes with many complexstories.
And that's to me, where the.
Love of history comes from isthat history's complex and this
place is a good jumping offpoint to understand that
changing history in the PacificNorthwest.
Missy (13:32):
So they made a collective decision.
To stay there for the winter,
Jon Burpee (13:39):
Yes.
Missy (13:40):
what would that have been like?
Jon Burpee (13:42):
There's this funny moment at Axo or Middle Village
also referred to as Station Campand it's this spot on the north
shore of the river.
It's part of the park today.
And they do something.
Sometimes people refer to it asa vote, and that, that makes me.
Pull back a little bit becauseit is a military expedition,
right?
And often when I ask veterans doyou remember a lot of democracy
(14:04):
during your time of service?
They go no, not really.
But I will say, and it'ssomething that I think is still
true to this day.
Great military officers willoften listen to the enlisted
folks.
And I love this moment.
It's a moment where.
There's a solicitation, maybethat's the best, right?
They solicited opinions and theyhad three options, essentially
(14:26):
stay on the North Shore wherethey weren't seeing a lot of
game to sustain them with thesouth wind blowing.
During the winter.
The reason they were in Quilumwhat they considered in
abandoned village, it was asummer village.
The Chinook were smart enoughnot to hang out on the shore.
North Shore of the ColumbiaRiver during the they went to
their nice place during thewinter their winter homes, but
(14:47):
they s they had that moment, dowe stay there?
The clat zip tell us across theriver that there's a lot more
game, a lot more elk or do wereturn up river to a place
called the Sand River or theSandy River?
If you look on a map, you'll seethe town of Sandy, Oregon today.
And they record everybody'sopinion.
(15:07):
In Clark's Journal, you can goto that date.
You can read each and every oneof the opinions.
It's intriguing to me becauseit's not just the sergeants and
the privates or even the, someof the civilian contractors
essentially that were with them.
But they include Clark'senslaved Man York and they
include Chicago the Indianwoman, the wife of Tucson ot.
(15:30):
And they record their opinionsand sure enough, when you look
at it.
It feels like a vote because themajority of them said they
wanted to go to the South Shoreand Lewis found a spot that was
a good spot for temporaryquarters.
I think that's an extraordinarystory that at a time where, you
know, an indigenous woman anenslaved African man wouldn't
(15:51):
necessarily be asked theiropinion of much.
The it's there recorded in theCaptain's Journal.
Missy (15:57):
Yeah.
And when you, the more you learnabout the expedition, all of
those that went on it were atby, especially by the time they
got out west.
They were so knowledgeable andtheir perspectives would've been
very valuable.
Jon Burpee (16:09):
Yep.
Absolutely.
And it's, the, again I think thesign of a good leader often is
to listen more than speak.
And I think that's a good one.
The experiences many of thosepeople brought with them whether
they were in the frontiermilitary or recruited
specifically to be on that Ithink.
That's one of the geniuses ofLewis is making sure that he has
(16:30):
all the right people and thenalso the genius of making sure
he has all the right suppliesand the skill bases to, to make
this happen.
Missy (16:39):
When they were in out there how long had they been.
On their journey at that point.
Jon Burpee (16:43):
They had left essentially they had spent their
first kind of winter in thegreater St.
Louis area.
18 0 3, 18 0 4.
They spent their winter at FortMandan.
And then the winter of 18 0 5,18 0 6, they spend out here.
It's.
They've been on the journeyquite a while.
There's actually some referencein as they return back to the
(17:05):
St.
Louis area, surprise that theywere even still alive.
That, people had just figuredthat, they'd been gone so long
that they, so by the time theyget here, and that's the other
thing that I often think aboutis we talk about all this
adventure throughout thejourney.
It's a boring time here, right?
They're just marking time.
They're waiting for the snows onthe bitter roots and in the
(17:27):
Rockies to go down enough thatthey can.
So you've got, essentially fourmonths, three months in the
fort, roughly, but four monthsthat they spend here at the
mouth of the Columbia Riverwaiting their time.
And again, so many veterans I'vetalked to who have been deployed
talk about how those days,particularly when you know,
those days stretch longer andlonger for you to get home how
(17:49):
those days can be challenging.
Missy (17:51):
Yeah, I'm sure away from loved ones and just ticking'em
away and they're long, colddays,
Jon Burpee (17:57):
Absolutely.
And one of the worst things youcan have is a board en enlisted
men.
So they're doing all the tasksthey need to, to not only
sustain themselves.
They shoot over 130 elk whilethey're here.
They sew 336 pairs of moccasins.
Like I said two and a halfbushels of salt are pulled from
salt water.
They make candles.
(18:18):
They're preparing for theirjourney home.
But I think, keeping a, anenlisted men busy is probably a
good idea in thosecircumstances.
And it's cold.
You're exactly right.
Missy (18:29):
so yeah.
And when you go to the, when yougo and you see like the
reenactment area it's not, thosearen't luxurious setting grip
for them.
Jon Burpee (18:38):
no, indeed.
You know, it's, it's.
Quickly built.
It's the greatest Christmasgift.
They move in essentially theevening the Christmas Eve and
it, their indoors, whereasthey'd been sleeping largely
outdoors.
Their tents had rotted and thathad to have been this great
moment.
Their, within the journals, yousee the hardships.
(18:59):
There are.
Mosquitoes throughout.
Much of the time here, there arefleas.
One of the sergeants writes thatof the time they were here,
essentially there were 12 days.
So of the four months, there's12 days where it didn't rain and
only six days where the cloudsbroken enough.
You could see the blue sky.
Um, you know, November to Marchis a tough time to live here,
(19:21):
particularly in thosesituations.
Missy (19:23):
Oh my goodness.
We've talked a lot about thehistory and that's preserved in
the park, but you all are one ofthose parks that has historical
preservation and environmentalpreservation and conservation.
Let's talk a little bit aboutwhat you all are doing from an
environmental perspective.
Jon Burpee (19:40):
Yeah we're really fortunate in that Congress gave
us a really straightforwardmission.
Here in the park.
Our legislation we call enablinglegislation says that not only
are we to share this with.
With all these people, sharethese stories from all these
perspectives but also to restorethe landscape as to what it
looked like in 18 0 4, 18 0 6.
And that can be a little bitchallenging because some of the
(20:00):
uses in the past really havetransformed it.
But just as a superintendent,like I, I'm so incredibly proud
of.
The types of projects we'vepulled off in terms of wetlands
restoration.
A park this size with a staffthis size, probably no one would
(20:21):
expect us to pull off thesethings of and so that's a large
chunk of it, right?
Is restoring the landscapewhich.
Great, of course for the visitorexperience.
But the other thing is we're inan area where salmon
survivability is reallychallenging, particularly salmon
who are returning to the ocean,right?
Or young fry basically who arereturning to the ocean.
(20:44):
Who have very few wetlands downhere.
Much of the lower Columbia hasarmor, it's been rip wrapped or
to control flooding.
And here we get to create thosespaces of sanctuary which is.
Super important for the cultureof the Pacific Northwest,
whether it's, thousands of yearsof indigenous history.
But it's super important todayand I know many sports fishermen
(21:08):
that are really happy that theNational Park Service is doing
this type of work because it'sreturning, helping to return
salmon to their former glory,hopefully.
Missy (21:17):
Yeah, and I think that's important when people talk
about, if somebody tells me, oh,I don't use a park.
You, you do most I can't thinkof many people that wouldn't,
you know, because it's, plantingmangroves to protect the
shoreline or it's, forrecreation.
You, your recreation might notbe in the park, but you benefit
from the work that the parkdoes.
And I think that's so important.
(21:37):
The other thing that was reallysurprising to me about this area
was the different, likeecosystems.
Like I.
How many is it?
It's three or four differentecosystems there, isn't it?
Jon Burpee (21:50):
It is, and it, it's, the, just the, that little
stretch.
So we have a trail that's calledthe Fort to Sea Trail, which
surprisingly goes from the fortto the sea.
Missy (21:58):
Creative name.
Creative name, John.
Jon Burpee (22:01):
but I love it that it essentially starts down at
the Natto or the Lewis and ClarkRiver works its way up over
what's called Klaa Bridge.
And as you're going up and overand then down to the ocean
you're seeing really thelandscape of this area.
And in a.
Six and a half mile hike.
You're seeing it and you'reseeing just the impacts of kind
(22:23):
of our different uses over timeas well.
And that to me for a fairly tinypark.
I love that we have suchdiversity.
My I've got a couple favoritespots.
One is the Wetlands on the SouthSlew Trail.
It's got a really nice.
A hill that makes me work harderthan I probably should be
working.
But and then I drop down intothis beautiful little low area
(22:46):
this wetlands, skunk cabbage andjust symbolic of the Pacific
Northwest.
But I love going up to the CapeDisappointment Unit and seeing
old growth Spruce which.
You know when you sit there andyou tower over those things in
the south slew that are growingin that wetlands, and then you
get towered over by those Sitkaspruce you realize that this
(23:08):
park has something prettyspecial.
Missy (23:11):
Yeah the one of the pieces, the features that I did
not see, so you are on my listto come back, is the ethno
botanical garden.
Jon Burpee (23:20):
Yeah it's been a project that we've worked with
particularly the Confederatetribes, the KLAS Alem to
essentially bring forth some ofthe types of plants that were
important.
Sure.
We've got a, we've got signs allover the park about traditional
plants that were, recorded inthe journals of Lewis and Clark.
But there it's a chance to getthings that.
(23:42):
Growing that are really, havebeen important and continue to
be important to the nativepeoples throughout the area.
What I love is when I've beendown there with our particular,
our resources folks and they'retelling the story of these
plants how many people, don'trecognize those plants and have
that moment to realize, wow,these really are the plants that
(24:04):
define part of our culture.
And that, I think of thingslike, things that were written
about within the journal thatare right there at your
fingertips to touch, to smell,to experience, to look at.
And I love that and I thinkthat's a really great project.
Missy (24:21):
it felt, as I was reading about it, it felt really
special.
It just really spoke to meabout, gosh, to see.
Plants for the first time thatmaybe you hadn't seen anywhere
else and that you guys are doingthe work to maintain or bring
back or repopulate or whateverthe case may be.
But I think that's somethingthat it's really important to me
(24:43):
to come experience as well.
Jon Burpee (24:45):
Absolutely.
Well, and I love that the ethnobotanical garden is, I almost
look at it like a researchlibrary, right?
You get to see things that thenyou get to put in context out in
the wider world.
And I've had some wonderfulmoments where hiking with my
kids where I had pointed out aplant, but then later out on the
trails, they showed me the sameplant.
(25:06):
And I may have just absolutelywalked past that one on the
trail and not noticed, but theireyes had, focused in because of
that ethno botanical guard.
Missy (25:14):
I was, I saw like a meme or something recently where it
talked about basically that likekids and people know what a logo
goes to, like a brand logo, butthen if you show'em a different
leaf, like an oak leaf orsomething like that they can't
necessarily identify that.
And it struck me because.
I'm one of those where, youknow, my, my new-ish interest in
(25:38):
parks in the past, six to 10years and I'm re, I'm learning
things that maybe I was taughtat one point, but I certainly
didn't retain.
Going into this, my eyes arelike your kids where, oh this is
so new and oh my gosh, thesebirds and, things like that.
It's really interesting.
Jon Burpee (25:56):
I think that's one of the great things about parks,
whether they're historic parksor big natural parks or a
beautiful combination of the twolike I have here is that it puts
you in that space to learnsomething new and then to,
potentially apply it out intothe world.
And that.
That's been the beauty of parksall my life.
(26:17):
From my first visit to FortVancouver when I was eight years
old Fort Tup when I was nineyears old the Olympics.
And just grateful that I hadthat type of experience as a
kid, and that's what we'retrying to do here so that people
can see their place within alarger world.
Missy (26:33):
That's beautiful.
So let's talk about planning atrip.
The first step you recommend topeople when they're planning a
visit?
Jon Burpee (26:41):
Yeah, so I'm gonna say that the very first thing I
love I'm old school in this,that I love the nps.gov website.
It is full of amazinginformation.
Any park that you're looking atthere's always great information
there to help you.
Really figure out your trip forthis park and for many others.
I highly recommend folksdownloading the National Park
(27:03):
Service app because particularlywhen you're on site it truly
helped you, I think of a coupleyears ago at the Redwoods where
I was so happy that I had notonly the app.
But had maps that I could see,even though I couldn't get
signal.
And it was really nice havingthat app.
So I think that's a great way.
I think also with a historicstory of this magnitude taking a
(27:26):
look at like, how do you wannaexperience the Lewis and Clark
story?
I wish I had enough time to doit, like many of our visitors
who are driving the entire trailout from the St.
Louis area.
But for here, I highly recommendfolks hit one of our two visitor
centers either here at Fort Supunit.
Or up in the Cape DisappointmentUnit, which is a amazing museum
(27:48):
in its own right.
To be able to get that beforeyou'd really start to go
experience the resources,because those will ground you in
the story, in the context.
And then from there.
This park is six units or sixdifferent little areas.
Thinking a little bit aboutlogistics I think is important
too.
What can I see in the time Ihave the other thing is contact
(28:10):
us.
We'll be happy to share ideas ofhow to plan for your visit.
Missy (28:17):
Yeah, and I think like you guys have the the visitor
center by the fort is the one Iwent to, and there was a great,
there are great displays andinformation in the visitor
center, so I recommend that.
But I agree with you about thewebsite because.
You can really go down a bit ofa rabbit hole of who is this
person and who is this?
What is this place?
(28:37):
And in a kind of, in an in-depthway before you get there.
And so it would make it moremeaningful.
The first time I went was novery little research.
And now that I have preparedfor, have been and prepared for
this conversation I would have atotally different experience.
Now, ex going to the park.
Jon Burpee (28:54):
Oh, ab, absolutely.
And here you've got a, you'vegot a guide for a day by day
experience in many ways, right?
One of, one of my daily thingsthat I do is I read, those
journal entries that happenedfor those years, from 18 0 4, 18
0 5, 18 0 6 for that day, but.
That's one of the great things.
The journals are online.
University of Nebraska Lincolnhas an amazing resource in the
(29:18):
journals where you can also pullup, individual days, but you can
also pull up individual topicsand you see all the journal
entries and I think the folkswho.
Have read, whether it's ageneral book like Ted Courage or
have dug into the journals.
If they spend that time, they'regonna find a, an even bigger
(29:38):
connection to this place.
Missy (29:40):
Totally.
And it does.
The park doesn't have lodging,but you all are in a prime area.
You're close to Portland, you'reclose to, you're close to so
much.
So lodging isn't an issue whenpeople come to the area, it's
just not in the park.
Jon Burpee (29:54):
That's right.
Yeah.
Although we do have camping upin the Cape Disappointment Unit
run by the Washington StateParks and they do have yurts and
those types of things.
But we are in a, an area thatsince 1811, there have been
tourists here coming to sea FortClatsop when the first.
American settlement, a fur tradepost called Fort Astoria.
Almost immediately people arecoming out.
(30:15):
And that those towns that growup, whether it's Astoria or
Seaside or Oaco, cannon Beachthey, especially this time of
year, the summertime they arevery much got lots of hotel
rooms.
Missy (30:26):
Yeah.
Also on between you're in aregion where there's a lot of
national parks, between Olympicand Rainier and Crater Lake, and
you're on this nice tour, greatsummer vacation kind of tour
with everything pretty close,
Jon Burpee (30:43):
Yeah.
One of my, one of my favorites.
Yeah.
Yeah.
One of my favorites is I've hadquite a few folks who have their
entirety of their vacation wasto hit these national parks and
primarily in this order, which Ithink is really neat, which is
Lewis and Clark.
And you get the story of thenative peoples and the
explorers.
Fort Vancouver.
You get the story of the earlysettlement of the Pacific
(31:06):
Northwest, a fur trade story.
Seattle Klondike, one of thesmallest little sites that we
have but tells the story of theboom of Seattle and the growth
of what we think of the PacificNorthwest.
And you're in the shadow ofMount Rainier.
You're not far from northCascades when leave saddle con
dike, you walk to solo ways andyou can see the Olympics right
(31:28):
there.
And so a lot of these folks whodo this giant tour that always
makes me wanna get in the carwith them,
Missy (31:33):
I know seriously, I'm thinking how can I route myself
to do that?
That sounds great.
So when we've talked a lot aboutdifferent elements, and so some
of this might be a repeat, butwhen people come to visit, what
can they see
Jon Burpee (31:47):
Yeah.
They can first of all see thethe replica fort and all that.
See these great exhibits, bothat the Cape Disappointment
Visitor Center and here at FortTset they can get out,
particularly if they're in theright time of year, get out and
hiking and experiencing theforest, the smells of the
northwest that are, I love amisty Moisty forest.
So those are the big activities,the big things they can see with
(32:10):
throughout the park.
Missy (32:12):
And then is there a time of year that you recommend.
Jon Burpee (32:16):
So I, of course, this time of year the summertime
it is beautiful out there.
And, but if you really wannaexperience it as Lewis and Clark
did highly re recommend comingin that December.
There's a week between Christmasand New Year's where we
essentially have the Ford openwith folks in period clothing.
(32:36):
And I always joke that anybodycan visit during the summer and
it's a good visit.
If you really wanna experience,let us throw you in some
moccasins in December and seewhat it was really like for
Lewis and Clark here.
Missy (32:50):
Oh, that's a really cool idea.
I might think about that, John.
That might be something I do.
Okay.
How do people prepare for avisit based on weather and time
of year?
Because it is, it's a uniqueweather system there.
Jon Burpee (33:05):
It is, we're essentially a rainforest.
Yeah.
Again, that private that, or asergeant who wrote about all
that rain.
It's a true thing for much ofthe year.
The summers of this part of theworld are mu, beautiful and
mild.
I love when we complain thatit's 75 and has gotten too hot,
but the winters are pretty wet.
Highly recommend, folks dressingappropriately for the weather
(33:26):
because it, it can be prettytough if you get wet tennis
shoes when you're hiking ourtrails.
So having the right stuff isalways a good idea.
Missy (33:35):
John, when I was there, it was five years ago now, and
it was during the first summerwhere there was 114 degree heat
wave.
That was, I think that severalsince then, but I was like, oof,
this is hot out here.
It is not normal.
Yeah.
Jon Burpee (33:50):
that was a challenge.
I was actually on duty on anacting assignment at Pearl
Harbor.
So
Missy (33:56):
Oh, you won.
Jon Burpee (33:57):
I missed the heat gnome.
So you gotta experiencesomething at Lewis and Clark
that I didn't get to experience.
Missy (34:02):
I don't recommend it.
I would I think next time ithappens, go to Hawaii.
Jon Burpee (34:05):
yeah, absolutely.
I, my former park prior to thiswas Tole Springs fossil beds
outside of Las Vegas.
And yeah, I like the mildweather of the northwest when
it's here.
Missy (34:15):
Absolutely.
Can you bring your pets to Lewisand Clark?
Jon Burpee (34:19):
Yeah, this is a fairly pet friendly place and
there's a specific reason forthat.
The second most expensive itemthat Lewis purchased for the
trip was his dog Seaman.
And Seaman was a newfound Linda.
In fact, we just had Seaman'sDay just a few days ago where we
have a whole bunch of new feesin and their owners helping tell
the story of Louis's dog.
(34:40):
A valuable member of theexpedition.
So yeah we do typical type ofthings on a leash under your
control and all that type ofstuff.
But we get a lot of folks whobring their dogs not just
Newies, but other types of dogsas well.
Missy (34:54):
I love it.
You might be getting a goldendoodle here in a few weeks.
Jon Burpee (34:57):
Alright
Missy (34:59):
John, at the end of every episode, we do a speed round of
questions.
I'm just gonna ask'em and answerwith what comes to mind.
Okay.
What is your earliest parkmemory?
Jon Burpee (35:10):
Fort Vancouver, eight years old being fascinated
by the idea that there werepeople who were here long before
me,
Missy (35:19):
What made you love the parks?
Jon Burpee (35:22):
As a historian, the ability to be transferred and
transformed.
There's.
Lincoln said it best when he,said that essentially, these
sites like Gettysburg, that theyhave value.
We can, we could remember thesethings anywhere, but when you're
standing in the footfalls ofthose who came before us I love
that connection.
Missy (35:44):
What's your favorite thing about Lewis and Clark?
National Historical Park,
Jon Burpee (35:49):
There's so many things, but I will say this
staff is extraordinary.
I'm so lucky to get to work withthese people.
They bring this place to lifeand I'm a very lucky
superintendent.
Missy (36:01):
what's your favorite thing to do at Lewis and Clark
National Historical Park?
Jon Burpee (36:05):
So I, I love to get out on the river when I can.
But I love to hike here as well.
But probably my favorite thingis talking with visitors.
I try to, I, I'm outta my officeprobably more than I should be,
but I get out there and talk tovisitors and help share this
story and that, that's just anhonor and a privilege.
Missy (36:24):
What park have you yet to visit, but it's on your bucket
list and why?
Jon Burpee (36:29):
So I have been always intrigued by the National
Park of American Samoa.
It's, it may be on the bucketlist for a long time.
But the, just the nature of.
First of all the tropicalparadise that by all pictures it
looks like.
But the way the park serviceworks with the local population
I think is really unique.
(36:49):
But I have not met a park Ididn't like though,
Missy (36:53):
What are three must haves you pack for a park visit?
Jon Burpee (36:56):
The app my phone with that National Park Service
app good walking shoes and just.
An openness to learn learningsomething new.
Missy (37:06):
What is your favorite campfire activity?
Jon Burpee (37:11):
So I do love s'mores.
But I love some of the oldschool campfire programs that,
that still happen in quite a fewparks.
The ability to sit there part ofa group, part of a community
learn and participate.
I think it's still one of thecoolest things.
Every time I sit around acampfire, I think of some of the
best places that I've learnedfrom good people.
Missy (37:34):
And are you staying in a tent, camper, or cabin?
Jon Burpee (37:38):
So I, I am still a tent camper, although I recently
have begun to realize that thereare some beauty in things that
have wheels on them.
But still a tint tint camper.
Missy (37:48):
And are you hiking with or without trekking poles?
Jon Burpee (37:51):
The older I get the more I believe in trekking poles
for stability as well as I'vegot a nice set that I can put a
camera tripod on or I can attacha camera or my phone to, and
that makes for some really muchbetter photography for me.
Missy (38:08):
What is your favorite trail snack?
Jon Burpee (38:11):
I'm an old fashioned guy too, in Gorp.
Gorp is always good.
Increasingly though I findmyself, just en enjoying.
Here you can pick up to a pint aday of berries and things and
which is, different than in somenational park service sites.
And as we move into the berrytime of year, it's fun to, to
get to try those berries.
Missy (38:32):
Favorite animal sighting.
Jon Burpee (38:36):
Probably a sidewinder rattlesnake.
At Scotty's Castle of all placeshaving, had other experiences it
was a fun moment as a largegroup of people gathered around
that rattlesnake.
And even though I have a smallfear of rattlesnakes helping to
successfully move thatrattlesnake away from those
folks was pretty cool.
(38:58):
It's a good memory, but beyondthat, I increasingly, love the
diversity of birds around me.
Missy (39:06):
What is your favorite sound in the park?
Jon Burpee (39:10):
So there's a spot again on the South slew trail
where there's a boardwalk thatcrosses a creek.
And if I could properly everrecord the sound of that little
waterfall I think I'd play thatconstantly in my head.
Missy (39:26):
And John, what's the greatest gift that parks give to
us?
Jon Burpee (39:30):
I think it's, there's a great question.
I think it's to realize thatwe're part of something bigger
that we have a great opportunityto impact the world around us.
One of my favorite activities,is anything that, that gives me
a chance that within the park Irealize I can do outside the
(39:52):
park as well.
Whether that's studying historythat because of that visit to a
site as a manzanar not too longago and it just blew me away in
the complex stories there.
Or just realizing as I'm.
At my house trying to get rid ofall those plants that aren't
necessarily the local ones thatwe really need to worry about
here.
Missy (40:13):
John, thank you for joining me today.
Thank you for your storytellingand your knowledge and your
passion.
For Lewis and Clark, I reallyappreciate it and I'm grateful
to you.
Jon Burpee (40:23):
Truly appreciate the opportunity to share it and I
look forward to folks coming inand finding the, their magic in
their park, whether it's thisone or any of them out there.
Missy (40:32):
Absolutely.
Thanks for joining us fortoday's episode.
Until next time, we'll see youin the parks.
Thanks for listening.
If you enjoyed today's episode,please be sure to like and share
on your favorite podcastplatform.
Music for the parks podcast isperformed and produced by Porter
Hardy.
For more information, pleasefollow us at the parks podcast.
(40:55):
Or visit ourwebsite@theparkspodcast.com.
Our journey takes us to a spotthat celebrates another journey
through journals and historicalrecords.
This duo and their team helpedto chronicle the life and
resources of the West and thepark with their namesake is
keeping the historical andenvironmental conservation
alive.
Join us as we explore Lewis andClark National Historical Park.
(00:24):
I'm your host, Missy Rentz, andthis is the Parks podcast.
Missy (00:31):
In today's episode, I am joined by John Burpee.
John is the park superintendentat Lewis and Clark National
Historical Park.
John, welcome to the Parkspodcast.
Jon Burpee (00:41):
It's real pleasure to be here.
Thanks for having me, Missy.
Missy (00:44):
Absolutely.
I'm gonna jump into some parkstats.
Lewis and Clark NationalHistorical Park is located in
Astoria, Oregon.
It was dedicated on October30th, 2004, but it was really a
re-designation when multiplesites came together.
The original being Fort KlattNational Memorial, which was May
(01:06):
29th, 1958 at the time, in 2004,George W.
Bush was president of the UnitedStates.
The park is 621 acres.
In 2024, there were 267,118guests that came to visit the
park.
And some interesting facts.
(01:26):
The park commemorates thewestern most point of
Merriweather Lewis and WilliamClark's journey.
Lewis and Clark created whatthey called an extraordinary
friendship with the nativetribes that lived in what's now
Oregon and Washington, and thatstarted a beneficial trading
system there.
The park is home to 14 speciesof vertebrates, 100 birds,
(01:49):
including the endangered brownpelican, 10 amphibians, 20 fish,
three reptiles, and.
It's a very popular stop on amigratory bird journey, and I
think this is like such a, thiswas like one of my like surprise
and delight parks.
I popped in and fell in love,John.
Jon Burpee (02:08):
I, I feel that as well.
This is one of the places thatas a kid I first visited and it
drew me in and that's when itwas the tiny little fort clots
up National Memorial.
And now being back with thisexpanded park it's kind of a
Cinderella, right?
It's just it fits justperfectly.
It's got a good nature ofhistory and a really stunning
(02:29):
expanse of nature as well.
Missy (02:31):
So why is it important that Lewis and Clark.
National Historical Park is partof the National Park system.
Jon Burpee (02:38):
In many ways when you look at the, this early
Republic period, there's not amore a story that stands out
more than the Lewis and Clarkexhibition.
This is a pretty, for theperiod, this is a pretty.
Dante thing that Jefferson asksLewis and Clark to do, just want
you across the continent by landthrough a lot of areas that we
(02:59):
don't understand.
We don't know who owns.
You're going to interact with alot of indigenous people who
probably don't speak anylanguage that you can speak or
vice versa.
We want you to look for all thegood stuff that, potentially
could help us as a nation.
We want to learn scientificinformation.
Jefferson's a very scientificminded guy.
And you should be able to on$2,500 and make it back.
(03:20):
Of course they spent quite a bitmore in reality.
But it's a story of America's.
Boldness in its early days.
And I think that in its ownmakes it incredible.
But I think the significantstories of the indigenous people
that they intersect with, Ithink is a story that we
(03:40):
increasingly need to understand.
Missy (03:43):
I agree with you and I, there's so much of what you just
said that I wanna get into, soI'm just gonna tick away
Jon Burpee (03:49):
Perfect.
Missy (03:50):
Okay.
First, I wanna talk about,because we talk about it was re
designated.
What were the elements that cametogether?
Jon Burpee (03:57):
Yeah.
It's very funny.
This initial spot, this FortKatset National Memorial the
site traditionally understood tobe where Lewis and Clark and the
expedition spent their winnerwas joined together actually
about.
20 years after its founding withthe Salt Works.
So an area that essentiallyLewis and Clark sent men down to
for about seven weeks to boilsalt water 24 hours a day to
(04:20):
extract salt.
And as we were coming up to thebicentennial of the Lewis and
Clark expedition they.
There were other sites that weknew were associated with the
story.
And so the folks that were hereat the time and the local
congressional supporters decidedthat Cape Disappointment this
area that truly is when you cansay that Lewis and Clark.
(04:42):
The expedition got to the oceanon the North Shore.
It's an amazing site run by ourpartners, the Washington State
Parks.
The Middle Village or axilla orStation Camp has multiple names.
I prefer Quick Lum, which is theChinook name.
This.
Summer village site that theyspent essentially 10 days at.
And decided the fate of the restof the entire journey at that
(05:05):
moment.
And then a spot that Clarkdescribed as a named dismal
niche.
Six days, probably six of themost miserable days that they
spent there.
And those sites were broughttogether along with the far end
of.
The trail to the sea to becomethis new national historical
park.
And so it provides a lot ofopportunities, recreational and
(05:29):
educational because of all theseresources.
Missy (05:32):
And I have to be honest because when, anytime I think
about Lewis and Clark and I lookback on the stories that I've
heard, I grew up in Virginia.
So we really focused on theCivil War.
There wasn't my, there wasmention, but very little and
then, I listened to Undauntedcourage and things like that.
But what sticks in my mind arethe stories of the adventure.
(05:53):
And I almost forgot I did forgetuntil I was researching and
visiting your park is that therewas a purpose.
It the adventure might be whathooked me in the book, but there
was a purpose in.
Collecting information.
Jon Burpee (06:08):
Absolutely.
You look Jefferson you beingfrom Virginia, there's an
absolute connection of course.
Lewis being a Virginia and afamily friend of the Jeffersons
and his personal secretary inthe White House.
But, for Jefferson who saw theUnited States in grand terms he
saw this as an opportunity tobring together multiple
interests, right?
(06:28):
The interest of the UnitedStates to find a practicable way
to the west.
He was looking for a easy way tothe west.
They didn't find that but theydid find a practical way to the
west that actually did then leadto future settlement.
Future growth and exploration.
So the interest of thegovernment.
Brought together with the ininterests of the economic side
(06:51):
of the country what furs can beobtained, what are mining
opportunities where's good landfor future farms and then
brought together withJefferson's deep, intense
scientific interest.
And all those things had to cometogether really to make this
happen when Jefferson letsCongress know that we're gonna
do this.
(07:11):
He sends essentially a secretmessage.
It's not, something that he putsin a State of the union, nothing
like that.
And it's announced more as afate, a comp lead than anything
else.
We're going to do this.
It was a absolute passionproject for Jefferson but also
serve the needs of the nation aswell.
Missy (07:30):
And when you visit the park, there's some like
historical reference.
Journals and just the stuff thatyou all have.
Can you share a little bit aboutwhat people might see when
they're there
Jon Burpee (07:41):
yeah.
yeah.
The site itself, that initialFort Tup area coming up to the
hundred 50th anniversary localfolks got together and created a
replica based upon the journalsof the fort.
And still, in many ways, that'sthe thing that draws folks here.
It's that moment where you canimagine yourself in history.
The thing that I think.
(08:02):
That has developed most in themost recent years is beyond that
historical moment of standing inthe replica fort.
And like this time of year, wehave it decked out in period
goods and it, there are peoplein period clothing.
But beyond that, it's theability to experience this in
ways that Lewis and Clark andthe Expedition did.
(08:23):
But the native people'sexperienced it for, many years
many years prior to that andstill do with them.
And that's by foot and paddling.
And we get a lot of folks whoare coming here to canoe and
kayak to walk the, in the FortKlap unit, we have about 16
miles of trail.
And so again, this combinationof history and nature that I
(08:44):
find so.
Appealing to get to work here?
Missy (08:47):
And you talked a, you talked about the the natives and
the relationship that they hadwith them, because so often in
the parks that I've talked tothe relationship with with
natives what be it, nativeAmericans or just the people
that they ended up taking theland from, it's contentious and
it's.
It's sad and scary and all thosethings, but that's not the
(09:10):
relationship that they hadformed out here.
Jon Burpee (09:13):
No.
One, one of my favoriteactivities with visitors is we
stand and we imagine thegeography, right?
And this geography.
The mouth of the river whichdrains one sixth of the
continent.
It, it has an, it's a highway tomany indigenous cultures.
And we stand there and weimagine the people to the north
and the people to the south longbefore any Europeans arrive.
(09:36):
And we talk about how do thepeople to the south get things
from people to the north?
The people here, the Chinook theChinookan, speaking peoples
anybody from the interior whowants something from the ocean,
they get it through the Chinook.
So long before, Lewis and Clarkarrived long before Robert Gray,
who's the first non-nativeperson that enters the Columbia
(09:57):
River that we know of, at leastin 1792, before any of that
happens the Chinookan peoples,they're traitors.
They do really well at this.
By the time Lewis and Clark showup, there's been at least 13
years of interaction directlywith the Chinook and the Klatts
of Boku, the Kala the wheel, thepeople of this end of the river,
(10:19):
where they've been trading.
And I think there's somethinginteresting in the, when Lewis
and Clark arrive, Clark writesthat the trade goods they have
left.
What you imagine this right?
The trade goods.
They have left can fit on twohandkerchiefs, and it, these are
bigger than, aren't necessarilyhandkerchiefs that our grandpas
(10:39):
may be carried around.
They're a little larger, butstill compared to all the other
traders that were here, Lewisand Clark's arrival enclosed,
that have essentially rotted offof them.
They're replacing it withleather compared to the guys on
the ships with all those goods.
I think that, first of all, itwas, a different thing for the
(11:00):
local peoples.
But when you look at thehospitality of the lower Chinook
that I'll say extends to thisday as a culture and as a people
the hospitality that they tookwith Lewis and Clark was pretty
impressive.
Doesn't mean that Lewis andClark didn't necessarily bring
their own cultural ideas withthem and at times found things
(11:20):
that were within Chinookanculture that they didn't like.
But it led to a much differentinteraction than we often think
of when there's that interactionbetween the newcomers and the
people of the land.
Missy (11:33):
And a lot of that relationship and what the
Chinooks taught the Lewis andClark and the whole crew, like
that's in the journals.
That's, we know a lot about thatrelationship.
Jon Burpee (11:45):
Yep.
Absolutely.
And it's, I think that's one ofthe great things there.
There are a lot of expeditionsthat the United States will send
over the years to lots of placesacross the west and even around
the world.
There's a great expeditioncalled the Wilkes Expedition,
1841.
Lewis and Clark's is so vividbecause of the journals because
of how it's recorded.
(12:06):
And it's Lewis and Clark and afew of the enlisted men that we
have the journals from.
It's truly neat to be able tosee and then combine it with
what we've learned from, ourindigenous partners.
And there are so many overlapsbetween the story.
And I think that's really, as ahistorian, that's super
satisfying.
Missy (12:24):
I think one of the things I love about the way the park
service tells the story is itcomes let's see, like fairly
unbiased, like just telling thestory and sometimes the story
evolves over time because welearn things over time, but that
has to feel really good when thetwo sides of the story are
(12:47):
matching, are in sync.
Jon Burpee (12:48):
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
It, it's the understanding ofthat moment in time and those
two sources matching but thenputting it into the context of
what would become and that's theother part of this is a, a.
It's the adventure side of, it'san uplifting story.
The overall, the interactionshere are really, but it is a
harbinger of change that happensfor the clat up and the chin and
(13:12):
the peoples of this area.
And it comes with many complexstories.
And that's to me, where the.
Love of history comes from isthat history's complex and this
place is a good jumping offpoint to understand that
changing history in the PacificNorthwest.
Missy (13:32):
So they made a collective decision.
To stay there for the winter,
Jon Burpee (13:39):
Yes.
Missy (13:40):
what would that have been like?
Jon Burpee (13:42):
There's this funny moment at Axo or Middle Village
also referred to as Station Campand it's this spot on the north
shore of the river.
It's part of the park today.
And they do something.
Sometimes people refer to it asa vote, and that, that makes me.
Pull back a little bit becauseit is a military expedition,
right?
And often when I ask veterans doyou remember a lot of democracy
(14:04):
during your time of service?
They go no, not really.
But I will say, and it'ssomething that I think is still
true to this day.
Great military officers willoften listen to the enlisted
folks.
And I love this moment.
It's a moment where.
There's a solicitation, maybethat's the best, right?
They solicited opinions and theyhad three options, essentially
(14:26):
stay on the North Shore wherethey weren't seeing a lot of
game to sustain them with thesouth wind blowing.
During the winter.
The reason they were in Quilumwhat they considered in
abandoned village, it was asummer village.
The Chinook were smart enoughnot to hang out on the shore.
North Shore of the ColumbiaRiver during the they went to
their nice place during thewinter their winter homes, but
(14:47):
they s they had that moment, dowe stay there?
The clat zip tell us across theriver that there's a lot more
game, a lot more elk or do wereturn up river to a place
called the Sand River or theSandy River?
If you look on a map, you'll seethe town of Sandy, Oregon today.
And they record everybody'sopinion.
(15:07):
In Clark's Journal, you can goto that date.
You can read each and every oneof the opinions.
It's intriguing to me becauseit's not just the sergeants and
the privates or even the, someof the civilian contractors
essentially that were with them.
But they include Clark'senslaved Man York and they
include Chicago the Indianwoman, the wife of Tucson ot.
(15:30):
And they record their opinionsand sure enough, when you look
at it.
It feels like a vote because themajority of them said they
wanted to go to the South Shoreand Lewis found a spot that was
a good spot for temporaryquarters.
I think that's an extraordinarystory that at a time where, you
know, an indigenous woman anenslaved African man wouldn't
(15:51):
necessarily be asked theiropinion of much.
The it's there recorded in theCaptain's Journal.
Missy (15:57):
Yeah.
And when you, the more you learnabout the expedition, all of
those that went on it were atby, especially by the time they
got out west.
They were so knowledgeable andtheir perspectives would've been
very valuable.
Jon Burpee (16:09):
Yep.
Absolutely.
And it's, the, again I think thesign of a good leader often is
to listen more than speak.
And I think that's a good one.
The experiences many of thosepeople brought with them whether
they were in the frontiermilitary or recruited
specifically to be on that Ithink.
That's one of the geniuses ofLewis is making sure that he has
(16:30):
all the right people and thenalso the genius of making sure
he has all the right suppliesand the skill bases to, to make
this happen.
Missy (16:39):
When they were in out there how long had they been.
On their journey at that point.
Jon Burpee (16:43):
They had left essentially they had spent their
first kind of winter in thegreater St.
Louis area.
18 0 3, 18 0 4.
They spent their winter at FortMandan.
And then the winter of 18 0 5,18 0 6, they spend out here.
It's.
They've been on the journeyquite a while.
There's actually some referencein as they return back to the
(17:05):
St.
Louis area, surprise that theywere even still alive.
That, people had just figuredthat, they'd been gone so long
that they, so by the time theyget here, and that's the other
thing that I often think aboutis we talk about all this
adventure throughout thejourney.
It's a boring time here, right?
They're just marking time.
They're waiting for the snows onthe bitter roots and in the
(17:27):
Rockies to go down enough thatthey can.
So you've got, essentially fourmonths, three months in the
fort, roughly, but four monthsthat they spend here at the
mouth of the Columbia Riverwaiting their time.
And again, so many veterans I'vetalked to who have been deployed
talk about how those days,particularly when you know,
those days stretch longer andlonger for you to get home how
(17:49):
those days can be challenging.
Missy (17:51):
Yeah, I'm sure away from loved ones and just ticking'em
away and they're long, colddays,
Jon Burpee (17:57):
Absolutely.
And one of the worst things youcan have is a board en enlisted
men.
So they're doing all the tasksthey need to, to not only
sustain themselves.
They shoot over 130 elk whilethey're here.
They sew 336 pairs of moccasins.
Like I said two and a halfbushels of salt are pulled from
salt water.
They make candles.
(18:18):
They're preparing for theirjourney home.
But I think, keeping a, anenlisted men busy is probably a
good idea in thosecircumstances.
And it's cold.
You're exactly right.
Missy (18:29):
so yeah.
And when you go to the, when yougo and you see like the
reenactment area it's not, thosearen't luxurious setting grip
for them.
Jon Burpee (18:38):
no, indeed.
You know, it's, it's.
Quickly built.
It's the greatest Christmasgift.
They move in essentially theevening the Christmas Eve and
it, their indoors, whereasthey'd been sleeping largely
outdoors.
Their tents had rotted and thathad to have been this great
moment.
Their, within the journals, yousee the hardships.
(18:59):
There are.
Mosquitoes throughout.
Much of the time here, there arefleas.
One of the sergeants writes thatof the time they were here,
essentially there were 12 days.
So of the four months, there's12 days where it didn't rain and
only six days where the cloudsbroken enough.
You could see the blue sky.
Um, you know, November to Marchis a tough time to live here,
(19:21):
particularly in thosesituations.
Missy (19:23):
Oh my goodness.
We've talked a lot about thehistory and that's preserved in
the park, but you all are one ofthose parks that has historical
preservation and environmentalpreservation and conservation.
Let's talk a little bit aboutwhat you all are doing from an
environmental perspective.
Jon Burpee (19:40):
Yeah we're really fortunate in that Congress gave
us a really straightforwardmission.
Here in the park.
Our legislation we call enablinglegislation says that not only
are we to share this with.
With all these people, sharethese stories from all these
perspectives but also to restorethe landscape as to what it
looked like in 18 0 4, 18 0 6.
And that can be a little bitchallenging because some of the
(20:00):
uses in the past really havetransformed it.
But just as a superintendent,like I, I'm so incredibly proud
of.
The types of projects we'vepulled off in terms of wetlands
restoration.
A park this size with a staffthis size, probably no one would
(20:21):
expect us to pull off thesethings of and so that's a large
chunk of it, right?
Is restoring the landscapewhich.
Great, of course for the visitorexperience.
But the other thing is we're inan area where salmon
survivability is reallychallenging, particularly salmon
who are returning to the ocean,right?
Or young fry basically who arereturning to the ocean.
(20:44):
Who have very few wetlands downhere.
Much of the lower Columbia hasarmor, it's been rip wrapped or
to control flooding.
And here we get to create thosespaces of sanctuary which is.
Super important for the cultureof the Pacific Northwest,
whether it's, thousands of yearsof indigenous history.
But it's super important todayand I know many sports fishermen
(21:08):
that are really happy that theNational Park Service is doing
this type of work because it'sreturning, helping to return
salmon to their former glory,hopefully.
Missy (21:17):
Yeah, and I think that's important when people talk
about, if somebody tells me, oh,I don't use a park.
You, you do most I can't thinkof many people that wouldn't,
you know, because it's, plantingmangroves to protect the
shoreline or it's, forrecreation.
You, your recreation might notbe in the park, but you benefit
from the work that the parkdoes.
And I think that's so important.
(21:37):
The other thing that was reallysurprising to me about this area
was the different, likeecosystems.
Like I.
How many is it?
It's three or four differentecosystems there, isn't it?
Jon Burpee (21:50):
It is, and it, it's, the, just the, that little
stretch.
So we have a trail that's calledthe Fort to Sea Trail, which
surprisingly goes from the fortto the sea.
Missy (21:58):
Creative name.
Creative name, John.
Jon Burpee (22:01):
but I love it that it essentially starts down at
the Natto or the Lewis and ClarkRiver works its way up over
what's called Klaa Bridge.
And as you're going up and overand then down to the ocean
you're seeing really thelandscape of this area.
And in a.
Six and a half mile hike.
You're seeing it and you'reseeing just the impacts of kind
(22:23):
of our different uses over timeas well.
And that to me for a fairly tinypark.
I love that we have suchdiversity.
My I've got a couple favoritespots.
One is the Wetlands on the SouthSlew Trail.
It's got a really nice.
A hill that makes me work harderthan I probably should be
working.
But and then I drop down intothis beautiful little low area
(22:46):
this wetlands, skunk cabbage andjust symbolic of the Pacific
Northwest.
But I love going up to the CapeDisappointment Unit and seeing
old growth Spruce which.
You know when you sit there andyou tower over those things in
the south slew that are growingin that wetlands, and then you
get towered over by those Sitkaspruce you realize that this
(23:08):
park has something prettyspecial.
Missy (23:11):
Yeah the one of the pieces, the features that I did
not see, so you are on my listto come back, is the ethno
botanical garden.
Jon Burpee (23:20):
Yeah it's been a project that we've worked with
particularly the Confederatetribes, the KLAS Alem to
essentially bring forth some ofthe types of plants that were
important.
Sure.
We've got a, we've got signs allover the park about traditional
plants that were, recorded inthe journals of Lewis and Clark.
But there it's a chance to getthings that.
(23:42):
Growing that are really, havebeen important and continue to
be important to the nativepeoples throughout the area.
What I love is when I've beendown there with our particular,
our resources folks and they'retelling the story of these
plants how many people, don'trecognize those plants and have
that moment to realize, wow,these really are the plants that
(24:04):
define part of our culture.
And that, I think of thingslike, things that were written
about within the journal thatare right there at your
fingertips to touch, to smell,to experience, to look at.
And I love that and I thinkthat's a really great project.
Missy (24:21):
it felt, as I was reading about it, it felt really
special.
It just really spoke to meabout, gosh, to see.
Plants for the first time thatmaybe you hadn't seen anywhere
else and that you guys are doingthe work to maintain or bring
back or repopulate or whateverthe case may be.
But I think that's somethingthat it's really important to me
(24:43):
to come experience as well.
Jon Burpee (24:45):
Absolutely.
Well, and I love that the ethnobotanical garden is, I almost
look at it like a researchlibrary, right?
You get to see things that thenyou get to put in context out in
the wider world.
And I've had some wonderfulmoments where hiking with my
kids where I had pointed out aplant, but then later out on the
trails, they showed me the sameplant.
(25:06):
And I may have just absolutelywalked past that one on the
trail and not noticed, but theireyes had, focused in because of
that ethno botanical guard.
Missy (25:14):
I was, I saw like a meme or something recently where it
talked about basically that likekids and people know what a logo
goes to, like a brand logo, butthen if you show'em a different
leaf, like an oak leaf orsomething like that they can't
necessarily identify that.
And it struck me because.
I'm one of those where, youknow, my, my new-ish interest in
(25:38):
parks in the past, six to 10years and I'm re, I'm learning
things that maybe I was taughtat one point, but I certainly
didn't retain.
Going into this, my eyes arelike your kids where, oh this is
so new and oh my gosh, thesebirds and, things like that.
It's really interesting.
Jon Burpee (25:56):
I think that's one of the great things about parks,
whether they're historic parksor big natural parks or a
beautiful combination of the twolike I have here is that it puts
you in that space to learnsomething new and then to,
potentially apply it out intothe world.
And that.
That's been the beauty of parksall my life.
(26:17):
From my first visit to FortVancouver when I was eight years
old Fort Tup when I was nineyears old the Olympics.
And just grateful that I hadthat type of experience as a
kid, and that's what we'retrying to do here so that people
can see their place within alarger world.
Missy (26:33):
That's beautiful.
So let's talk about planning atrip.
The first step you recommend topeople when they're planning a
visit?
Jon Burpee (26:41):
Yeah, so I'm gonna say that the very first thing I
love I'm old school in this,that I love the nps.gov website.
It is full of amazinginformation.
Any park that you're looking atthere's always great information
there to help you.
Really figure out your trip forthis park and for many others.
I highly recommend folksdownloading the National Park
(27:03):
Service app because particularlywhen you're on site it truly
helped you, I think of a coupleyears ago at the Redwoods where
I was so happy that I had notonly the app.
But had maps that I could see,even though I couldn't get
signal.
And it was really nice havingthat app.
So I think that's a great way.
I think also with a historicstory of this magnitude taking a
(27:26):
look at like, how do you wannaexperience the Lewis and Clark
story?
I wish I had enough time to doit, like many of our visitors
who are driving the entire trailout from the St.
Louis area.
But for here, I highly recommendfolks hit one of our two visitor
centers either here at Fort Supunit.
Or up in the Cape DisappointmentUnit, which is a amazing museum
(27:48):
in its own right.
To be able to get that beforeyou'd really start to go
experience the resources,because those will ground you in
the story, in the context.
And then from there.
This park is six units or sixdifferent little areas.
Thinking a little bit aboutlogistics I think is important
too.
What can I see in the time Ihave the other thing is contact
(28:10):
us.
We'll be happy to share ideas ofhow to plan for your visit.
Missy (28:17):
Yeah, and I think like you guys have the the visitor
center by the fort is the one Iwent to, and there was a great,
there are great displays andinformation in the visitor
center, so I recommend that.
But I agree with you about thewebsite because.
You can really go down a bit ofa rabbit hole of who is this
person and who is this?
What is this place?
(28:37):
And in a kind of, in an in-depthway before you get there.
And so it would make it moremeaningful.
The first time I went was novery little research.
And now that I have preparedfor, have been and prepared for
this conversation I would have atotally different experience.
Now, ex going to the park.
Jon Burpee (28:54):
Oh, ab, absolutely.
And here you've got a, you'vegot a guide for a day by day
experience in many ways, right?
One of, one of my daily thingsthat I do is I read, those
journal entries that happenedfor those years, from 18 0 4, 18
0 5, 18 0 6 for that day, but.
That's one of the great things.
The journals are online.
University of Nebraska Lincolnhas an amazing resource in the
(29:18):
journals where you can also pullup, individual days, but you can
also pull up individual topicsand you see all the journal
entries and I think the folkswho.
Have read, whether it's ageneral book like Ted Courage or
have dug into the journals.
If they spend that time, they'regonna find a, an even bigger
(29:38):
connection to this place.
Missy (29:40):
Totally.
And it does.
The park doesn't have lodging,but you all are in a prime area.
You're close to Portland, you'reclose to, you're close to so
much.
So lodging isn't an issue whenpeople come to the area, it's
just not in the park.
Jon Burpee (29:54):
That's right.
Yeah.
Although we do have camping upin the Cape Disappointment Unit
run by the Washington StateParks and they do have yurts and
those types of things.
But we are in a, an area thatsince 1811, there have been
tourists here coming to sea FortClatsop when the first.
American settlement, a fur tradepost called Fort Astoria.
Almost immediately people arecoming out.
(30:15):
And that those towns that growup, whether it's Astoria or
Seaside or Oaco, cannon Beachthey, especially this time of
year, the summertime they arevery much got lots of hotel
rooms.
Missy (30:26):
Yeah.
Also on between you're in aregion where there's a lot of
national parks, between Olympicand Rainier and Crater Lake, and
you're on this nice tour, greatsummer vacation kind of tour
with everything pretty close,
Jon Burpee (30:43):
Yeah.
One of my, one of my favorites.
Yeah.
Yeah.
One of my favorites is I've hadquite a few folks who have their
entirety of their vacation wasto hit these national parks and
primarily in this order, which Ithink is really neat, which is
Lewis and Clark.
And you get the story of thenative peoples and the
explorers.
Fort Vancouver.
You get the story of the earlysettlement of the Pacific
(31:06):
Northwest, a fur trade story.
Seattle Klondike, one of thesmallest little sites that we
have but tells the story of theboom of Seattle and the growth
of what we think of the PacificNorthwest.
And you're in the shadow ofMount Rainier.
You're not far from northCascades when leave saddle con
dike, you walk to solo ways andyou can see the Olympics right
(31:28):
there.
And so a lot of these folks whodo this giant tour that always
makes me wanna get in the carwith them,
Missy (31:33):
I know seriously, I'm thinking how can I route myself
to do that?
That sounds great.
So when we've talked a lot aboutdifferent elements, and so some
of this might be a repeat, butwhen people come to visit, what
can they see
Jon Burpee (31:47):
Yeah.
They can first of all see thethe replica fort and all that.
See these great exhibits, bothat the Cape Disappointment
Visitor Center and here at FortTset they can get out,
particularly if they're in theright time of year, get out and
hiking and experiencing theforest, the smells of the
northwest that are, I love amisty Moisty forest.
So those are the big activities,the big things they can see with
(32:10):
throughout the park.
Missy (32:12):
And then is there a time of year that you recommend.
Jon Burpee (32:16):
So I, of course, this time of year the summertime
it is beautiful out there.
And, but if you really wannaexperience it as Lewis and Clark
did highly re recommend comingin that December.
There's a week between Christmasand New Year's where we
essentially have the Ford openwith folks in period clothing.
(32:36):
And I always joke that anybodycan visit during the summer and
it's a good visit.
If you really wanna experience,let us throw you in some
moccasins in December and seewhat it was really like for
Lewis and Clark here.
Missy (32:50):
Oh, that's a really cool idea.
I might think about that, John.
That might be something I do.
Okay.
How do people prepare for avisit based on weather and time
of year?
Because it is, it's a uniqueweather system there.
Jon Burpee (33:05):
It is, we're essentially a rainforest.
Yeah.
Again, that private that, or asergeant who wrote about all
that rain.
It's a true thing for much ofthe year.
The summers of this part of theworld are mu, beautiful and
mild.
I love when we complain thatit's 75 and has gotten too hot,
but the winters are pretty wet.
Highly recommend, folks dressingappropriately for the weather
(33:26):
because it, it can be prettytough if you get wet tennis
shoes when you're hiking ourtrails.
So having the right stuff isalways a good idea.
Missy (33:35):
John, when I was there, it was five years ago now, and
it was during the first summerwhere there was 114 degree heat
wave.
That was, I think that severalsince then, but I was like, oof,
this is hot out here.
It is not normal.
Yeah.
Jon Burpee (33:50):
that was a challenge.
I was actually on duty on anacting assignment at Pearl
Harbor.
So
Missy (33:56):
Oh, you won.
Jon Burpee (33:57):
I missed the heat gnome.
So you gotta experiencesomething at Lewis and Clark
that I didn't get to experience.
Missy (34:02):
I don't recommend it.
I would I think next time ithappens, go to Hawaii.
Jon Burpee (34:05):
yeah, absolutely.
I, my former park prior to thiswas Tole Springs fossil beds
outside of Las Vegas.
And yeah, I like the mildweather of the northwest when
it's here.
Missy (34:15):
Absolutely.
Can you bring your pets to Lewisand Clark?
Jon Burpee (34:19):
Yeah, this is a fairly pet friendly place and
there's a specific reason forthat.
The second most expensive itemthat Lewis purchased for the
trip was his dog Seaman.
And Seaman was a newfound Linda.
In fact, we just had Seaman'sDay just a few days ago where we
have a whole bunch of new feesin and their owners helping tell
the story of Louis's dog.
(34:40):
A valuable member of theexpedition.
So yeah we do typical type ofthings on a leash under your
control and all that type ofstuff.
But we get a lot of folks whobring their dogs not just
Newies, but other types of dogsas well.
Missy (34:54):
I love it.
You might be getting a goldendoodle here in a few weeks.
Jon Burpee (34:57):
Alright
Missy (34:59):
John, at the end of every episode, we do a speed round of
questions.
I'm just gonna ask'em and answerwith what comes to mind.
Okay.
What is your earliest parkmemory?
Jon Burpee (35:10):
Fort Vancouver, eight years old being fascinated
by the idea that there werepeople who were here long before
me,
Missy (35:19):
What made you love the parks?
Jon Burpee (35:22):
As a historian, the ability to be transferred and
transformed.
There's.
Lincoln said it best when he,said that essentially, these
sites like Gettysburg, that theyhave value.
We can, we could remember thesethings anywhere, but when you're
standing in the footfalls ofthose who came before us I love
that connection.
Missy (35:44):
What's your favorite thing about Lewis and Clark?
National Historical Park,
Jon Burpee (35:49):
There's so many things, but I will say this
staff is extraordinary.
I'm so lucky to get to work withthese people.
They bring this place to lifeand I'm a very lucky
superintendent.
Missy (36:01):
what's your favorite thing to do at Lewis and Clark
National Historical Park?
Jon Burpee (36:05):
So I, I love to get out on the river when I can.
But I love to hike here as well.
But probably my favorite thingis talking with visitors.
I try to, I, I'm outta my officeprobably more than I should be,
but I get out there and talk tovisitors and help share this
story and that, that's just anhonor and a privilege.
Missy (36:24):
What park have you yet to visit, but it's on your bucket
list and why?
Jon Burpee (36:29):
So I have been always intrigued by the National
Park of American Samoa.
It's, it may be on the bucketlist for a long time.
But the, just the nature of.
First of all the tropicalparadise that by all pictures it
looks like.
But the way the park serviceworks with the local population
I think is really unique.
(36:49):
But I have not met a park Ididn't like though,
Missy (36:53):
What are three must haves you pack for a park visit?
Jon Burpee (36:56):
The app my phone with that National Park Service
app good walking shoes and just.
An openness to learn learningsomething new.
Missy (37:06):
What is your favorite campfire activity?
Jon Burpee (37:11):
So I do love s'mores.
But I love some of the oldschool campfire programs that,
that still happen in quite a fewparks.
The ability to sit there part ofa group, part of a community
learn and participate.
I think it's still one of thecoolest things.
Every time I sit around acampfire, I think of some of the
best places that I've learnedfrom good people.
Missy (37:34):
And are you staying in a tent, camper, or cabin?
Jon Burpee (37:38):
So I, I am still a tent camper, although I recently
have begun to realize that thereare some beauty in things that
have wheels on them.
But still a tint tint camper.
Missy (37:48):
And are you hiking with or without trekking poles?
Jon Burpee (37:51):
The older I get the more I believe in trekking poles
for stability as well as I'vegot a nice set that I can put a
camera tripod on or I can attacha camera or my phone to, and
that makes for some really muchbetter photography for me.
Missy (38:08):
What is your favorite trail snack?
Jon Burpee (38:11):
I'm an old fashioned guy too, in Gorp.
Gorp is always good.
Increasingly though I findmyself, just en enjoying.
Here you can pick up to a pint aday of berries and things and
which is, different than in somenational park service sites.
And as we move into the berrytime of year, it's fun to, to
get to try those berries.
Missy (38:32):
Favorite animal sighting.
Jon Burpee (38:36):
Probably a sidewinder rattlesnake.
At Scotty's Castle of all placeshaving, had other experiences it
was a fun moment as a largegroup of people gathered around
that rattlesnake.
And even though I have a smallfear of rattlesnakes helping to
successfully move thatrattlesnake away from those
folks was pretty cool.
(38:58):
It's a good memory, but beyondthat, I increasingly, love the
diversity of birds around me.
Missy (39:06):
What is your favorite sound in the park?
Jon Burpee (39:10):
So there's a spot again on the South slew trail
where there's a boardwalk thatcrosses a creek.
And if I could properly everrecord the sound of that little
waterfall I think I'd play thatconstantly in my head.
Missy (39:26):
And John, what's the greatest gift that parks give to
us?
Jon Burpee (39:30):
I think it's, there's a great question.
I think it's to realize thatwe're part of something bigger
that we have a great opportunityto impact the world around us.
One of my favorite activities,is anything that, that gives me
a chance that within the park Irealize I can do outside the
(39:52):
park as well.
Whether that's studying historythat because of that visit to a
site as a manzanar not too longago and it just blew me away in
the complex stories there.
Or just realizing as I'm.
At my house trying to get rid ofall those plants that aren't
necessarily the local ones thatwe really need to worry about
here.
Missy (40:13):
John, thank you for joining me today.
Thank you for your storytellingand your knowledge and your
passion.
For Lewis and Clark, I reallyappreciate it and I'm grateful
to you.
Jon Burpee (40:23):
Truly appreciate the opportunity to share it and I
look forward to folks coming inand finding the, their magic in
their park, whether it's thisone or any of them out there.
Missy (40:32):
Absolutely.
Thanks for joining us fortoday's episode.
Until next time, we'll see youin the parks.
Thanks for listening.
If you enjoyed today's episode,please be sure to like and share
on your favorite podcastplatform.
Music for the parks podcast isperformed and produced by Porter
Hardy.
For more information, pleasefollow us at the parks podcast.
(40:55):
Or visit ourwebsite@theparkspodcast.com.
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Season Two Out Now! Law & Order: Criminal Justice System tells the real stories behind the landmark cases that have shaped how the most dangerous and influential criminals in America are prosecuted. In its second season, the series tackles the threat of terrorism in the United States. From the rise of extremist political groups in the 60s to domestic lone wolves in the modern day, we explore how organizations like the FBI and Joint Terrorism Take Force have evolved to fight back against a multitude of terrorist threats.
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