Mill Springs Battlefield National Monument (Episode 35)

Mill Springs Battlefield National Monument shares the story of one of the few winter battles held during the Civil War and how Kentucky's commitment to neutrality eventually shifted to have them fighting for the Union.

Episode Transcript

(00:01):
This battlefield helps to tellthe story of Kentucky's role in
the Civil War.
The Commonwealth's commitment toneutrality eventually faded and
led to one of the few winterbattles.
Join me as we explore MillSprings Battlefield National
Monument.
I'm your host, Missy Rentz, andthis is the Parks podcast.

Missy (00:23):
In today's episode, I am joined by Andrew Miller, who is
the chief of Interpretation atMill Springs Battlefield
National Monument.
Andrew, welcome to the Parkspodcast.

Andrew (00:34):
Thanks, Missy.

Missy (00:35):
So let's start with some park stats and introduce people
to a relatively new part of theNational Park Service.
Mill Springs Battlefield islocated in Nancy, Kentucky.
It was created on September22nd, 2020 during Donald Trump's
first term as president.
The park is 647 acres, and in2024 there were 8,579 visitors

(01:00):
to the monument.
Some interesting facts.
This battle taking place January19th, 1862 was one of the rare
winter battles in the Civil War.
It was the first major victoryof the West.
Soldiers from eight states tookplace in these battles.
And several areas in themonument area are on the

(01:21):
National Registry of HistoricPlaces, including the
Confederate Mass Grave Monumentin Somerset, Kentucky General,
Felix k Zla Coffer Monument, theWest Met Metcalf House and Mill
Springs National Cemetery.
Andrew, this is such, a uniquepark and it was probably my
first experience visiting such ayoung park.

Andrew (01:45):
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's, most people when they goto national park sites expect,
certain type of signage, acertain approach, a certain
feel.
When you get there, you'relooking for the arrowhead
everywhere, and you're lookingfor this large presence and
everything that comes with aNational Park site, whether it's
urban or rural, or one of thepremier sites or even smaller

(02:06):
ones, you're expecting to seeall of this stuff, and a new
site doesn't have all that.

Missy (02:10):
No.
And it was really cool thevisitor center is amazing.
That feels, very new.
It's spectacular.
But throughout the rest of thepark, there isn't, I guess I'm
gonna, I'm gonna call it thepolish, but I don't wanna say
that in a way that detracts fromit.
'cause it's really cool and thehistory is still told.
But you really do understandthat a park, there's not like a

(02:31):
ribbon cutting and it's allopen.
It's an evolution.

Andrew (02:35):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
And I think that's important, toremember that every single
national park from the originalone in Yellowstone all the way
to today, everyone has beenbuilt up from the ground up.
And, that includes, othernational military sites or other
battlefields or other places ofhistoric or natural
significance.
Every single one of them hastheir story of what happened

(02:57):
there and what makes themnationally significant and why
there was some sort of enablinglegislation to create and
preserve it.
But.
You have that aspect of it.
And then you have, Hey, where dowe put bathrooms?
How do we get the people here?
Or how do you put signage onhighways?
How do you develop a unique gridbrochure that self guides people
through it?
All of these tiny little facets,which we sort of take for

(03:20):
granted because they're justsupposed to be there.
They're supposed to, you createdthe Congress, created a park and
they plop everything down, andit's like Legos.
Like you build it up fast andthere it is.
And it's like, no, that'sdefinitely not how it happens.
For any listeners out there thathave gone to some of the newer
places especially parks thathave been created within the
past five years, they've seensome with amazing infrastructure

(03:42):
that exists, like Mill SpringsBattlefield, which we were very
fortunate to accept to othernews sites, which are.
Just a lone wayside in a fieldthat is commemorating the story
as they develop the park and asthey come up with maybe a
general management plan or, orthey just go through the hiring
process of building out theirstaff.

(04:03):
There's a lot that goes into it.

Missy (04:05):
And, you're very dependent on the work that was
done prior to it becoming apark.
And we talk about some of theseparks and how there's friends of
organizations and there's allthese groups that were really
advocating for the park anddoing maybe sometimes the work
of the park long before Congressactually said, now this is part

(04:26):
of the National Park Service.

Andrew (04:28):
Yeah, I think that a lot of these places, start with
grassroots act, you know,activity or just generally local
people who have a passion forpreserving these places.
And I would harken back to ourforebearers, the veterans
themselves.
This is specific for,battlefields and specifically,
so American Civil WarBattlefields, is that the

(04:48):
veterans were the ones that cametogether, and reconciled their
differences in the 1880s and1890s through a variety of
veterans organizations, etcetera.
But when it came time tounderstanding the impact of the
American Civil War on ournation's history, they
recognized that there weresignificant places where blood
was shed and people lost theirlives, and that they had to come

(05:10):
together to.
Develop a plan for commemoratingthem.
And that's that grassrootsthing.
It starts with individuals andlike anything else, we go from
enthusiastic 18 year olds, 20year olds, people who are
passionate.
Those are the soldiers tograying old men that are now
congressmen and senators,governors, lawyers, people of

(05:33):
influence in the United Statesthat use, that influence to sway
the public into, helpingacknowledge and then preserve
these places of nationalsignificance.
Talking in a broader scheme ofnational parks in general, and
then boiling down to Civil Warbattlefields.
And it's that type of grassrootseffort that initiates the first

(05:54):
five national military parks,chickamauga, Chattanooga Shiloh,
Gettysburg, and Vicksburg.
And then throughout the 20thcentury, incorporating a dozen
or so more battlefields, right?
So there's that legacy that wascarried through the centennial
of the 1960s into peoplerecognizing that as the nation

(06:18):
continued to grow, that therewas significant, encroachment on
civil war battlefields andRevolutionary War battlefields.
Creek war Battlefields, war of18, 12 battlefields, all of
these things were in danger ofbeing lost.
And, people need places to live.
They need housing, they needinfrastructure.

(06:38):
They need amenities.
The communities need to grow.
But that encroachment, thatgrowth was impacting very
significant hallowed ground.
And so a list came out in thelate 1980s, of the 10 most
endangered civil warbattlefields.
And this area.
Near Nancy Kentucky referred toas Mill Springs.
Battlefield was one of the top10 most endangered battlefields.

(07:02):
Local citizens in this area tookit upon themselves to put
together an association, theMill Springs Battlefield
Association.
And it's through their effort ofnot only, recognizing the need,
putting it all together,organizing themselves through a
grassroots effort, and chasingafter, grants through the
National Park Service, theAmerican Battlefield Protection

(07:23):
Program specifically, but avariety of other national, state
and local, fund sources to buildthis battlefield up, acquire the
land, and officially preserveit.
And that's significant becausethis, these people before the
National Park Service got hereare the ones that did it.

(07:44):
They literally did it.
The National Park Service didnot come in and preserve this
land.
We are now the torch carriers.
We are the people that arefortunate enough to be able to
take the legacy of the veteransfirst, who fought here, and the
people that came after them thatpreserved this, place of
significance.
And now we get to develop iteven further.

(08:07):
Organize it in a multifacetedway as a national park should
be, promote the heck out of it.
So people come here and then,watch as it grows and blossoms
into, what we think the veteranswould've wanted it to be, which
is what it probably looked likeat the time period of the war.

Missy (08:24):
It is interesting'cause when you're doing the driving
tour, at more established parks,it's all battlefield.
And here you're driving pastpeople's homes and as I was
doing it, certainly soaking upthe history, but then I was
thinking, what must it be liketo live on?
A former battlefield

Andrew (08:41):
right, exactly.
And, that's would be another,case in point.
I don't think, that's unique tothis battlefield either.
I know you've probably seen manybattlefields on your travels and
obviously things like thiswhere, you could go to
Fredericksburg and see that themajority of that battlefield is
totally taken up with urbansprawl.
Another classic case would be,Murfreesboro in Tennessee where

(09:02):
Stones River.
The battle that happened there,I think, encompassed 6,000 acres
of fighting.
And they're reduced.
I don't even know, to a thousandmaybe.
I don't even know if they'rethat big.
So it gives you an idea of whatwas lost if preservation doesn't
happen, they created that park,I believe, in the 1920s.
The place was still rural.
I think the local mentalitythere was obviously that, we're

(09:25):
never gonna grow, right?
But obviously Nashville grew andMurphysboro is now considered a
satellite, suburb of that.
And everybody went there, andthen Middle Tennessee State
University blew up and all thatother stuff.
Kennesaw Mountain would beanother battlefield.
It's the largest green space, inAtlanta.
And so now I think they get 1.1or 1.2 million visitors a year

(09:46):
just to recreate.
And all of the land around thepreserved part of that
battlefield, is just completelybuilt up with many mansions and
things like that.
So, to your point, tons ofpeople there live on hallowed
ground and live on places wherethe battle was being fought
there.
So I think it's unique.
I think the difference would bethat, this area of Kentucky is

(10:08):
so rural, it's been, it's both,a blessing in that we are able
to preserve and conserve thisplace.
But at the same time, you kindof feel a little out in the, the
middle of nowhere,

Missy (10:18):
Yeah.

Andrew (10:18):
Somewhat, which is again, there's pros and cons to

Missy (10:21):
I did feel like I was within an hour and a half of
really great things in thatarea.
Okay.
So I wanna, I wanna talk aboutthe battle.

Andrew (10:28):
Yeah.

Missy (10:29):
tell me about the battle and what role it played in the
Civil War.

Andrew (10:33):
I think that's a great question.
For your listeners.
Most people when they think ofthe Civil War, think of
Gettysburg.
That is another National Parksite.
Or they may think of Vicksburgin Mississippi.
But the Civil War battles not ina vacuum.
There not one single event.
We like to pretend, but not onesingle event impacts the whole
war.
We look for simplicity and howwe teach history so that we can

(10:57):
easily say this happened andthis happened, and then this
happened.
Cause and effect.
But this battle that transpiresin present day, Nancy Kentucky,
it probably shouldn't have neverhappened, but through the course
of the events during the CivilWar does, and it has such a
massive impact on how the CivilWar was going to progress west

(11:20):
of the Appalachian Mountainrange, that I don't think people
on both sides were reallyprepared for its outcome.
Plans were set in place, armiescollided here, but at the end of
the day, the impact it has,truly could be considered a
watershed moment.
And that everything changesafter this battle.

(11:43):
And, that in a nutshell is whyit's nationally significant
enough to become a National Parksite.
That would be the one question,why is that a park, right?
Because of its significance andimpact on our nation's history.
The two respective states,Kentucky and Tennessee are
considered sister states.
When the Civil War erupts, thefirst state to secede is South

(12:04):
Carolina, is followed by severalother states, most of which are
very deep southern states.
The cotton belt as we would callit.
But, as those states seceded andare preparing themselves to self
govern, both in individually asa state and then considering a
confederacy to link thesestates, there are four other
northern upper southern statesthat, are debating secession

(12:28):
debating on leaving the nation.
There's a lot of reasons forthat.
Many of the people in thesestates are constitutionalists
and they believe in this nationand they don't necessarily wanna
give up on it.
And they've already seen theseother states go and they're
being wooed and coerced intotrying to leave with them.
You're with us, you're southernstates, you should be with us.
But many of the people thatlived there didn't believe in

(12:50):
that.
And with the firing of FortSumter on April 12th, 1861, that
is where the hostilities trulykick off.
There had been minor eventsbefore that that you could
consider, but when theinsurgents in Charleston fire
upon a United States militaryinstallation Fort Sumter, the

(13:11):
war is officially begun.
And it's at that moment wheremany of these upper southern
states do a 180.
I mean, again, there are peoplein the state like we need to go.
Most of the other ones weresaying, no, no, no.
We need to hold, hold strong tothe constitution.
When the firing starts, theychange their tune.

(13:32):
And the final state to secede inthe southwest Tennessee on, June
8th, 1861.
So it gives you an idea ofcontext June 8th.
So the firing had happened inApril.
It's now June.
And the secession delegates hadcome to Kentucky to also woo and
sway this commonwealth intoseceding.
The governor himself, boffin,was a pro secessionist governor,

(13:56):
but the vast majority of thepeople that lived in Kentucky
were not, they remainedsteadfast to the union, the
government, and theconstitution.
So.
Abraham Lincoln said that whileI hope to have God on my side, I
must have Kentucky because it isa truly buffer between the, what

(14:18):
we call the Midwest, but whatthey refer to as the Old
Northwest, the states of Ohio,Indiana, Illinois, Wisconsin,
Michigan, Minnesota, Iowa.
These states, which were unionstates, were above the Ohio
River and Kentucky would nowserve as this buffer between

(14:38):
Tennessee, which has seceded inthese pro-union states.
And so it was very important tohold on to Kentucky and really
politically try to bend and movewith them depending on which way
the wind blew.
And obviously, Abraham Lincolnis very adept at this as a
lawyer, as a politician.
He understands that whileKentucky may be very pro-union.

(15:01):
It's also a slave state.
And so he is got this verytenuous, situation that he's
gotta work on.
All that to be said that theConfederates will eventually be
concerned about Union enlistmentthat's happening in their state.
They know that arms or weaponsare being brought into the state
to arm these pro-union factions.

(15:22):
And so Confederate authoritiesin Tennessee will march men into
the western power of the stateto fortify Columbus, Kentucky.
And that nullifies the officialstance of Kentucky, which had
been neutral this entire time.
We don't wanna do anything, wedon't want anything to do with
this f recital Civil war.

(15:43):
I always say this for thoselisteners old enough to remember
Yosemite Sam, with his twopistols facing both directions.
That's Kentucky.
I mean, if you remove thepistols and you put, Colonel
Sanders with two pistols.
Maybe that's it.
But realistically, they had twopistols pointing at both sides.
Leave us alone.
And when the confederates marchthat force into the western part

(16:03):
of the state, the statelegislature, in Frankfurt
decides that they are now, thiswhole neutrality thing is done.
We've been invaded.
We are now aligning ourselveswith the Constitution and the
Lincoln administration, and weare officially declaring
ourselves for the government.
However, there is no, while theydo that, this state still

(16:25):
remains in limbo.
In September as the state, thegeneral, assembly in Frankfurt
has decided to go with aligningthemselves with the north, a
Confederate general named FelixKoli Coffer, who had been tasked
with controlling the prounionist of Eastern Tennessee.

(16:47):
And had been sent there todeclare a martial law and really
suppress pro unionism in theeastern part of the state has
assembled a large force on theborder near the Cumberland Gap,
another National Park site bythe way.
When he hears obviously that thestate assembly, the general
assembly in Frankfurt hasdecided to go with the Lincoln

(17:07):
administration.
He marches his force and invadesthe Commonwealth in that
direction.
And Zali Coffer is this uniqueindividual that, has no
professional militarybackground, but he has the kind
of influence that you see manyofficers have in the beginning
of the Civil War.

(17:28):
So whereas both the Union andConfederate governments are
looking for those individualsthat, they are.
Looking for professionallymilitary trained individuals to
lead their armies.
There's just not that many ofthem at least qualified, so they
start looking for importantinfluential figures.
And Felix Ley Coffer is one ofthem.

(17:49):
He had been a US politicianbefore the Civil War.
He was a newspaper editor.
And, this guy, had a lot ofinfluence on the people of
Tennessee, by the way.
He was a wig.
He was not a Democrat and he wasnot a Republican.
He was a wig before theRepublican Party really became,
a viable political entity.

(18:11):
He was very much when all thesecession talk was going on in
the state of Tennessee wassaying, no, we must remain loyal
to the Constitution of theUnited States.
And when the shooting startedand Lincoln calls for volunteers
to suppress the rebellion in thesouthern states, Zali Kaufer is
one of those people in Tennesseethat does that 180 flips on his

(18:31):
head and says, no, we mustprepare to defend ourselves.
And he becomes one of thosepeople.

Missy (18:37):
And did I read this correctly that like Lincoln was
very savvy.
He, he publicly really, talkedabout and respected the
neutrality and yet provided armsso Kentucky could protect
itself.

Andrew (18:51):
Yep.
Secretly, yes.

Missy (18:52):
Yeah.
But then in the end, it wasreally a fantastic strategic
move because, he was gettingKentucky on his side.

Andrew (19:00):
Right.

Missy (19:01):
That a right interpretation of what I've
read?

Andrew (19:03):
I think it's very fair.
Lincoln, understood that theUnited States government
couldn't really officiallyinterfere with that neutrality
because again, he needsKentucky.
He's also Kentucky by birth.
Whether that played any impactor not, who's to say really, but
his wife, was a Kentuckian.
And of course her family livedin Lexington.

(19:23):
And he understood theindividuals and who they really
were in, the state.
And he understood that whilethey may be pro-union, they are
also slave holders and the eliteare.
He understands that, racialequality may not necessarily be
on top of everybody's list inKentucky, nor was it anywhere in
the United States at the timeperiod.
So that doesn't, it just is whatit is.

(19:45):
But there, I think what heunderstood was that there were
people that were willing tofight for the union, a lot of
them.
And so how does he utilize thatwithout tripping over this
neutrality thing?
And he sent a couple of navallieutenants, one an Eastern
Tennessean.
He sent that to that man toEastern Tennessee.

(20:05):
And he sent a Kentuckian, to,his home, to start to influence
and enlist.
Men for the union cause and thatindividual's name was William
Bull Nelson.
And Nelson was, a 300 pound,about as Navy as it gets.
And people knew that.
And yet they, he was a naturalleader and whether he may not,

(20:27):
he was a little coarse in how hesaid things and expected things
outta people.
That was just his rigid militarybackground as a, lieutenant in
the United States Navy.
And he was commissioned ageneral in the army, so unusual
right there, leaving his, hisnaval background to become a, an
army officer.
Nelson really sets up the firstmajor training facility for

(20:50):
Union soldiers, which is nearCamp Nelson, another national
park site that was gonna keephitting these national park

Missy (20:56):
It's a great story up there too.

Andrew (20:58):
So that, that was called Camp Dick Robinson, and it was
really the first officialtraining facility for Union
soldiers.
And many of the individuals thatfight at the Battle of Mill
Springs that were from Kentucky,that's where they go because
that was a place of safe haven,not only for Pro-Union
Kentuckians, which is obvious,Hey, just go up the road to Camp
Dick Robinson.
And, you're gonna be trained andorganized and uniformed and

(21:22):
you'll be in the army.
But for those EasternTennesseans, the men that were
placed under martial law,through threats of violence, up
to including loss of property,arrest, and maybe even death,
these people in the beginning ofthe Civil War are so fearful for
their lives that they becomerefugees.

(21:42):
From their homes.
They leave their wives, theyleave their sisters, they leave
their mothers and fathers, andthey flee through the Cumberland
Gap or any other egress throughthe mountain range to come to
the safety of Kentucky andreally to the folds of the US
Army at Camp Dick Robinson.
So we were talking about amassive refugee of trying to
bring their families here.

(22:02):
And these individuals will beorganized, trained, and will
eventually end up on thebattlefield here at Mill
Springs, fighting Tennessean.

Missy (22:10):
What role did winter play, we mentioned it in the
facts.
What, how'd that impact thisbattle?

Andrew (22:16):
absolutely.
Weather.
There's some great books, outthere on just weather and the
American Civil War.
But armies didn't campaign inthe wintertime.
If you harken back to Napoleongoing to Russia in the middle of
winter and losing his entirearmy, it's just not a smart
decision.
And so generally it was justconsidered that armies hunkered
in and they built, theirencampments, their winter

(22:38):
quarters, and they would justtrain and subsist or eat and
wait until the spring thaw.
Just like all of us, if anybodythat doesn't live in Miami, or
maybe Vicksburg, Mississippi,new Orleans, y'all think cold's
cold when it turns 40, 50degrees.
Anybody that lives in Minnesota,Michigan, Maine, and Canada,

(23:02):
it's cold.
It gets cold in the wintertime.
We all hunker in.
If you're from the north and youdread winter.
Everybody does the same thing.
They do two things.
They probably drink whiskey andthey just sit in their side and
look out the window for fivemonths.
That's about all that you can dowhen you live up north.
But that's what the soldierswere gonna do.
It just didn't make any sense.
The roads would either be frozensolid with, all these ruts and

(23:25):
things which weren't good for,humans walking on it.
It definitely wasn't good forany animals walking on it for
long periods of time.
They would break the axles andwheels of wagons, artillery, et
cetera.
It just doesn't make sense.
So winter battles are rare?

Missy (23:42):
Why did it happen then?
Why did they do it then ratherthan, waiting.

Andrew (23:47):
Yeah.
Soly coffer entered the state.
He was marauding arounddisrupting all these union
camps.
He fights a battle near London,Kentucky called the Battle of
Wildcat.
Mountain or Camp Wildcat, heloses the battle and he's forced
to retreat back into his homestate of Tennessee.
He looks for a place, as thewinner's coming.
It's November, right?

(24:07):
Oh, the ominous winner inKentucky is upon us, and he must
look for a good, viable place tohave a winner encampment for his
men.
He finds on the bend of theCumberland River, a small locale
called Mill Springs.
Mill Springs sat on the, bend ofthe Cumberland River on the
south side.
It had good fertile farmland,flattened level with, with

(24:29):
multitudes of streams that fedto, a really good mill for
producing corn and flour meal.
And, just about anything an armywould need to subsist off,
during the wintertime.
And so when he arrives, thethird week of November, he's
establishing his men and they'restarting to organize and build
their winter encampment.
And he immediately decides tosend the majority of his force

(24:52):
across the Cumberland River, toa place called Beach Grove.
And Beach Grove is part of the,park here.
And he is thinking that if hehas both of his men on both
sides of the river, he canspread his camps out, improve
the health, but really controlthe river itself.
And when we think of civil warbattles, we try to simplify.

(25:14):
The Army's marched there andthey fought, you need to think
about logistics.
How do things get to places backthen, and the railroad was not
what it would become.
In fact, in the early parts ofthe Civil War, especially in the
Southern states, many of thegauge system or the width of

(25:34):
rails differed.
So you needed different enginesand different train cars on some
of these places because thatenabled private railroad
industries to, to kind of keepit privatized, Hey, you can't
get on my rail line'cause it'sdifferent than his rail line and
he can't get on yours and yougotta come under mine if you
want to go to this place.
So anyway, the point I'm makingis that, river traffic still

(25:58):
dominates the logistics of theCivil War and the Cumberland
River, which is just a tributaryof the Mississippi, right?
All these large rivers, theOhio, the Cumberland, the
Tennessee, the Missouri, theArkansas, the white, the red,
all of these big large riversare tributaries, right?
Coming into the MississippiRiver.
So the Cumberland River is goingto be a means of not only

(26:23):
conveying large amounts of foodand ammunition and forage for
horses, but it's also a directcommunication line to Nashville
those that come here to thisarea.
And they're familiar with thispart of Kentucky.
They're very familiar with LakeCumberland.
We go to Lake Cumberland all thetime for house boating and fun

(26:44):
and, jet skiing and fishing.
But it wasn't always LakeCumberland, it was just part of
the Cumberland River.
That once they, they damned it,that changed sort of this whole
area and what it looks like.
But this river will float allthe way to Nashville.
And so Z Coffer is thinking, Ihave a direct communication
line.
I can get all the stuff I need,my army's spread out.

(27:05):
Yay.
And the unit Army, theauthorities in Louisville
recognize that soy coffer ishunkered down, but.
He's not that important to them.
Their purview is, yeah, yeah,yeah.
We'll get to East Tennesseemaybe.
But it's just not that area ofKentucky and Tennessee is not
good for military operations.
There's not enough food for anarmy.

(27:26):
There's not enough space.
The roads are bad.

Missy (27:29):
I would think the terrain, they're so mountainous,
it'd be hard to get to it.

Andrew (27:33):
yes.
It's terrible.
And so they were like, no, no.
We wanna go to Bowling Green,where it's nice and flat and
fertile.
And then we get to Bowling Greenand we take Bowling Green and we
push the Confederates out ofthere.
We're gonna go to Nashville.
and.
So, the unit authorities aren'treally worried about Sy coffer
until they start getting thesevery alarming messages.
A union officer had been sent toSomerset, Kentucky with his men

(27:54):
Alban Shaw.
And Schoff is like, whoa,there's a lot of guys here and
I'm gonna get cut off and I'mgonna get captured.
We gotta do something.
And it really puts the bug inthe, in the authorities in
Louisville, and they decide tosend, George Thomas, the Union
General and his large divisionof Union soldiers, and they're
going to begin a march fromLebanon, Kentucky to Columbia,

(28:17):
Kentucky, and then fromColumbia, Kentucky.
They're gonna move east toSomerset.
And so that begins on January1st, 1862 and for 17 grueling
days, that weather you talkedabout the wintertime, has a
massive impact on those guys,the union soldiers.
The Confederates have hunkeredin.
They're, they've pretty muchcompleted their winter quarters.

(28:37):
They're imbibing, they'rehunting, they're gathering food.
They're just surviving there intheir little fortification north
of the river.
The unit army is marching day byday by day, and it really should
have taken them about a week toget to Somerset.
It takes'em 17 days.
So the roads are muddy.
They're bad, they're terrible.

(28:58):
The men are dragging the wagons,dragging the canons through the
mud, the mire.
They get to a stream that theyshould be able to walk across,
and it's just a flooded freshit.
They're washing bridges out,it's terrible.
And they're having to re bridgethose things and keep crossing.
And when they arrive at Logan'scrossroads, which is Nancy

(29:18):
today, they do exactly what theConfederates were doing.
They're going to spread outtheir camp, and it's pouring,
been pouring rain on them fordays.
So they're soaked and they justwant to be warm.
And they just want to exist andthey just want to sleep.
And all the things that we cantruly appreciate, know, if
anybody's ever camped and it'sbeen, sopping wet from rain and

(29:40):
they start a fire and they justwanna be warm, that's what those
guys were going through.
They're like, this, this armything stink.
This is not for me.
Maybe this isn't for me.
I don't know.
I'm just muddy all the time andwet all the time, and hungry all
the time.
So these guys are justpostulating.
They're, They're figuring eachother out.
The union, Thomas in command islike, okay, I guess we're

(30:03):
probably gonna have to marchdown this road and just attack
the Confederates and we're gonnalose a lot of men.
But I think we can do it.
And why the battle happens isthis, the Confederates, that
were down in their encampment.
On the north side of, theCumberland River, Zali Coffer is
superseded, so he actually getsa boss, and his boss's name is

(30:23):
George Crittendon.
Crittendon is a very famousKentucky name.
Crittenden's father had been oneof the influential politicians
in Washington City trying tokeep the war from actually
happening.
His one son joins the unit Armyas a general.
His other son, George, alignshimself with the Confederacy.
And so George Criden arrives inJanuary.

(30:43):
He sees the situation.
He's very concerned that theConfederates are on both sides
of the river.
It's a recipe for disaster.
And now he knows that the unitArmy's on their way.
And when they start to arrive onJanuary 17th, the unit Army
arrives at Logan's Crossroads.
Corin is so concerned that hecalls a Council of war on the

(31:04):
18th and says, we gotta dosomething before they get all
their men here.
And it's almost unanimous thatthese guys are going to get all
of their men together.
They're gonna march up the roadand they're gonna surprise the
Union Army on January 19th.
It's out of fear.
It's out of the dire situationthat Zoll Coffer has really put

(31:25):
them in.
They're also starting to run outof food.
There's a lot of circumstancesof why this battle happens and
for the Union Army, I just don'tthink that they, I think they
really figured the Confe juststay, stay put.
That is the logical thing to do,but that's not what happens.

Missy (31:42):
And they would have all winter to prepare.
That's fascinating.
Let's talk a little bit aboutplanning a trip to, mill
Springs.
How do you recommend somebodystart in planning to come to
Mill Springs?

Andrew (31:54):
Yeah, the best thing to do, you can do one of two
things.
One is to go on the Parkswebsite.
So the parks website is www dotnps, so National Park Service,
www.nps.gov/mi sp p.
So that will take you to ourParks website.

(32:15):
You can also go to Google andtype in Mill Springs
Battlefield.
You can go through the websiteand plan your visit there.
It'll give you the list of theactivities.
It will give you, very basicgeneric information, how to plan
your visit.
That would include youroperating hours, current
conditions, weather.

(32:36):
FAQs.
There's directions on how to gethere, there's things to do.
Our calendar, if you're lookingfor a specific type of
programmer on there, safety,accessibility.
And then there's justinformation on the, if you're
like, okay, I wanna go.
And you can also do that on thewebsite as well.

Missy (32:52):
It does link a lot to like the people.
So you get a sense of it.
And so I think you candefinitely do that.
But I also wanna say this is oneof those parks where if you see
the brown sign on the highwayand you just wanna get off, this
is a great park to do that.
I got there, I, I went into thevisitor center, talk to you and
your colleagues, and then mademy way through the museum area

(33:13):
and the visitor center and feltso informed.
There are a lot of parks where Iencouraged do your pre-planning,
but this is one of those whereyou would have just as great of
a time if you saw the brown signand decided I'm ready for a pit
stop.
And they, came over.

Andrew (33:29):
I agree too.
I do think that that's a goodthing about this park here is,
one, you're gonna see me, butyou're gonna see the rangers.
They're accessible and they areso willing to give you, a little
information or a lot, whateveryou're looking for that fits
your specific need.
That's what we're here for.
And we have that ability becausewe are new and small and we're
passionate and excited and allthat good stuff.

Missy (33:50):
Yeah.
And I will say I got there rightwhen you opened, and so I feel
like I had you all to myself fora while.
I got so much information andgreat storytelling.
And then, you know, an hourlater there was competition for
me and there were more things,but, but great demonstrations
and, great conversation.
I think that is wonderful.
What are people gonna see whenthey visit?

Andrew (34:11):
Yeah, when you come here, we're fortunate to have
that infrastructure from theformer association.
There is a comprehensive museum,with, really amazing exhibits
and displays, a lot of artifactspertaining to the Civil War.
Many of them pertainingspecifically to, the battle
itself.
There's archeology that was donehere.
So there's artifacts from thebattlefield in the museum.

(34:32):
Our park film, we have a 20minute orientation film for
visitors to watch so that theycan get really the nuts and
bolts of why this place isimportant.
The park itself is discontinuousin that it's not, all
encompassing.
You go to the visitor center andthen you, can utilize a variety
of different interpretive media.
The National Park Services appcan take you around the

(34:52):
battlefield.
You would go to the corebattlefield.
There's hiking trails on thebattlefield.
There's wayside exhibits to readon the battlefield.
There's, several monuments onthe battlefield, from the early
20th century.
And then you would drive downthe road to go to the
confederate winter encampmentsite, which is about nine miles
down the road.
So you're going from downtownNancy area where the battle was

(35:13):
fought, and then you follow theroot of March.
Or when I say the pursuit, whenthe confederates were lost, the
battle and they were routed and,running away, getting, getting
back to their fortification, theUnion Army pursued'em down the
road that you drive down.
I mean, you're following in thefootsteps of union soldiers as
they're pursuing the, thefleeing confederates.

(35:33):
And then you get to thefortification site and there's
trails down there.
You can see where in the ground,literally where the Confederates
had dug the really shallow, andI won't call'em a basement, but
these little shallow floorswhere they had built their log
huts they were living in.
You can see the evidence isstill there.
You can go and look at where theriver, was and the lake is

(35:55):
today.
Fortunately for us, we were verylucky over the past six months
to officially accept, a historichome, one of two that we, were
hoping to receive.
The home we received was theBrown Lanier home.
Which served as C'S headquartersjust prior to the battle.
The soldiers weren't campedaround it.
And it's just a really neatexample of this part of Kentucky

(36:18):
and the evolution of how peoplewere building and adding onto
their homes as they wereacquiring wealth, which is
really neat.
So there's the historic homesand we offer tours every
Saturday from May throughSeptember, so people can go on a
house tour of the Brown Lanierhome.
That home was the Miller's homefor the Historic Mill, which is
an operating mill that's managedby the Army Corps of Engineers.

(36:40):
So they are our neighbors andthey manage the entire Lake
Cumberland, but the historicmill is operating and you can go
to their site and see the milloperate, and you can come to the
house where the Millers actuallylived,

Missy (36:53):
And that I think that's interesting'cause that area.
Like we discussed it beingremote, but you have Lake
Cumberland, you have MammothCave is, I'm gonna say down the
street, it's like an hour and ahalf away.
There are several incredibleKentucky state parks.
And so

Andrew (37:08):
Yep.
Absolutely.

Missy (37:09):
definitely a spot where you could put together a really
incredible vacation,

Andrew (37:13):
you definitely,

Missy (37:14):
history, everything.

Andrew (37:15):
There's something for everybody.
There's Big South for 40 minutesSouth here, which divides the
Kentucky and Tennessee border.
Camp Nelson is an hour north ofhere if you're looking to
understand, logistics in theCivil War, and then, African
American enlistment and, theirpowerful story up there.
and then you have about an hourto the west of here, you have
Abraham Lincoln's birthplace,and then about an hour and 20

(37:38):
minutes you have Mammoth Cave

Missy (37:39):
You just gave my tour that I took.

Andrew (37:42):
Yeah.
And, really is this wonderfullocation where if whatever
direction you wanna go in,you're gonna be able to see and
do a lot of really

Missy (37:49):
You really are.

Andrew (37:50):
It's amazing.

Missy (37:51):
Can you bring a dog?

Andrew (37:53):
Yeah.
Oh, for sure.
Absolutely.
The only place in the entirepark that a dog is not, other
than a service animal is themuseum.
But the dogs can come into thevisitor center.
We have, a bark, a really activebark Ranger pro program, that
anybody can come in and do.
And then, we have, a poopreceptacle in the park.
We have one at the visitorcenter, one at Zo Crawford Park.

(38:14):
And one down at the Brown Lanierhome.
So you can walk your dogs,obviously the Bark Ranger ethos
of, you know, bringing, leashes,keeping them on leashes and
cleaning up after them and allthat stuff.
And we are, um, dog bowls outfor water, so they have a water
receptacle.
so we love dogs.
We wanna see'em.
And the incentive is bring yourdog, get your park ranger badge

(38:38):
here.

Missy (38:39):
Absolutely.
Okay, so this is a new park,only five years old, and parks
evolve.
what can we expect to see in thecoming years?

Andrew (38:46):
yeah.
So, one of the most interestingthings when you walk into the
visitor center, one of thethings you're gonna see on the
wall is you're gonna see what wewould assume is the most
historically accurate map.
It was done just after thebattle.
It shows you not only what Nancylooked like at the time period
of the Civil War, through theeyes of an engineer that did
this map, but where every singlefence was and every single,

(39:09):
location of a home.
And that's gonna be one of themost important guiding documents
for, for a cultural landscapereport that really will enable
the National Park Service,hopefully the next 25 years.
to transcend this back into whatthe battlefield looked like in
1862.
And so what you're gonna startseeing over the next couple
years is we are actually.
replacing the original fencingand putting that in the

(39:31):
locations, so that you have avery good context of at least
where the battle was fought andwhere the property lines were.
you'll also see a lot of newsignage there, so we will have a
lot of NPS Arrowhead Signagetour stop signage that's being,
installed.
you're gonna see more rangerprograms, a larger presence of
the public as we try to getmore, larger groups, and rv

(39:56):
tours to come Here we aredeveloping a staff ride, so we
are very aware that there's alarge active duty military
presence in this region.
for a battlefield, a staff ridebrings, active duty military
members of all branches and,gives them a good educational
opportunity to apply what theydo today.
And.

(40:17):
What happened here in thebattlefield, and it's a good
educational opportunity forthem, to branch the path with
the present.
And so we're putting our staffride together to enable that as
well.
So there, there's just a tonmore stuff that's gonna go.
our trail systems are gonnaexpand.
and then we are hoping that overthe next couple years that we'll
be able to get, a National Parkservice film completed here.

(40:39):
and she'll start looking at a,rehabilitation of the museum to
get more accessible exhibits, etcetera.
I think that visitors, when youcome to Mill Springs
Battlefield.
And you see it as it is, it'ssort of a blip and to where it'd
be like, oh, that was reallycool.
But it is evolving to the pointwhere if you come back, it's not
gonna be like it was the firsttime you're gonna be, unless you

(41:00):
really loved it the first time.
You're like, oh man.
But that's not gonna happen.
You're gonna be like, whoa, thenew film is amazing.
Whoa, the museum's awesome.
Oh my God, the trails are sodeveloped and they got all this
great information and all thiswonderful stuff.
I think it's just super excitingto be a part of, I know staff
here feels the exact same way,so it,

Missy (41:17):
I was there like a month ago and you've already told me
things that

Andrew (41:20):
Yeah, exactly.

Missy (41:21):
pretty significant changes, which Andrew, so we
finish each episode with a speedround of questions.
Just answer with what firstcomes to mind.

Andrew (41:29):
Okay.

Missy (41:30):
What is your earliest park memory?

Andrew (41:33):
Probably my parents bringing me to the FDR home in
Hyde Park, New York.
We had lived across the river inHighland, New York, and I just
have a very vivid, my mom wentto the culinary, she took a
couple courses there, and I havea very vivid memory, very young.
This is late eighties, and,going to the FDR home and then
late years later finding out, ohyeah, by the way, that's a
national Park society.
Like, oh.
But that would be the first parkthat I very vividly remembered

(41:55):
in my mind.
Yeah.

Missy (41:56):
What made you love the parks?

Andrew (41:59):
I, I think just, a passion for preservation.
I'm a history geek.
I think that when, when it camedown to it, I think I fell into
the whole Cannonball Rangerthing, but the more parks you
work in and the broader themission, you really understand
that mission holistically.
And, I've really bought intothat.
Within the first year, I was avolunteer, so for those
listeners, yes, I am a managerin the National Park Service

(42:22):
now, but I started out as avolunteer and you can too.
So that passion really developedthrough volunteerism and
contributing and being like,whoa, this is awesome.
I didn't even know this was athing.
And then learning more anddeveloping and recognizing that
this was a viable career optionand then going for it.
That's where it was like, itjust clicked and, never looked

(42:42):
back.
Right.
Here we are.

Missy (42:44):
What is your favorite thing about Mill Springs
Battlefield National Monument.

Andrew (42:49):
My favorite thing.
You know what?
We have some staff here that,grew up in the park and I find
it really fascinating that,exactly what I just said.
I was a volunteer and Ideveloped, they had probably no
idea that this was ever in therealm of possibility.
And they saw the associationpreserve this place from the
ground up.

(43:10):
They truly are the torchcarriers.
Their parents were helped inthat.
Their parents donated theireffort, their blood, their
sweat, their tears.
They've donated money to theassociation and here they are
now contributing as NationalPark Service employees.
And they're going to continuethat legacy far beyond my
career.
I mean, they're younger than Iam, far younger than I am.
And they're going to now be ableto carry that legacy and truly

(43:33):
build this place into what it'ssupposed to be.
And watching them develop andgrow as rangers, and just as
people in general has been,really the honor of my life is
to be able to lead them, butreally just watch them lead me.
I'm the one they're dragging mearound, to me that's the best
thing bar done is to watch thepark grow and watch them grow

(43:55):
with it.

Missy (43:56):
What's your favorite thing to do at Mill Springs
Battlefield National Monument?

Andrew (44:00):
Any single opportunity to talk to the visitors when
they walk in, you're selfincluded.
I know I caught you and we talkfor a long time, but going out
into the resource and walkingaround and, wrapping my mind
around what happened on thebattlefield, but meeting
visitors, making those visitorcontacts and them asking you
these really great and, thoughtand, and insightful questions

(44:21):
and being able to get them tohave that aha moment, you know,
and it doesn't even have to becivil war.
This is what national parks arefor, is for people to come
together and have these amazingopportunities to connect with
one another.
That's what it's all about.

Missy (44:36):
What park have you yet to visit, but it's on your bucket
list and why?

Andrew (44:40):
I haven't been west of the Mississippi to the Seaboard
battlefields that is a bucketlist thing.
I haven't done Wilson's Creekand, I've like to at least check
off the Civil War bucket list.
I've never been to Rocky, so,I'd like to go see Rocky and,
and do a full on National Parktour, making my way there.
That would be really cool.
Mount Rainier is another one Ihaven't seen that I would love

(45:01):
to see.
So, it's just a matter of time.

Missy (45:04):
What are three must-haves you pack for a park visit?

Andrew (45:08):
So if I'm going out in the park, my, I have a little
first aid kit.
If I'm going out there, waterwould be the second thing.
And I bring a map of thebattlefield.
So if I'm doing thisbattlefield, that's what I bring
for context.
I think if I'm going hiking, thefirst two things and then
probably, take repellent orsomething like that.
'cause, unlike many parkee that,that are gonna, get a permit and

(45:30):
camp, I'm probably gonna walk inand be like, God, this is
beautiful.
And walk right back out, get inmy car, put on the AC and cruise
down the road and be like, thatwas awesome.
I got my park sign picture.
We're happy, we're good.
Let's go back to the hotel.
And I'm not even, I'm not evenupset about it.

Missy (45:48):
What is your favorite campfire activity?

Andrew (45:51):
We're a pretty musical family, so I would say playing
the guitar and singing would befun.
Yeah.
Just sitting around and justkind of noodling on, on having
everybody sing would be it.

Missy (46:00):
Are you in a tent, camper, or cabin?

Andrew (46:03):
I like all of them.
I would do all of them.
I'm probably gonna go with thecabin.
Yeah.
I mean, it seems to fit my thingwhere I like to be out in nature
until I don't, so I'm cool withit.

Missy (46:12):
And are you hiking with or without trekking poles?

Andrew (46:14):
So interestingly enough, I'm one of those, oh, poles are
dumb.
They're really stupid.
And I went down, to the GrandCanyon and, had the fear struck
into me.
We got a permit.
We went to Phantom Ranch, andthey're all like, where are your
polls?
Because I have my pack.
And I'm like, I don't need that.
Like, dude, yes you do.
And I was like, ah, right,whatever.

(46:36):
And, I just wanna preface that Iwas working at the Statue of
Liberty and I'd worked in a lotof urban national parks.
And so for me to try tounderstand that I was below the
Statue of Liberty at that pointin the Grand Canyon kind of blew
my mind.
Or maybe not, I don't know.
But anyway, they gave me pollsand thank God they did because
it.
It changed my perspective and Idon't know if I would ever hike
without Poles anymore.
It just, you go from being akid, I can do this stuff.

(46:58):
And like, dude, you're nothiking in the Grand Canyon
without Poles.
they were right.
you know, never too old to learnsomething.
Right.

Missy (47:04):
What's your favorite trail snack?

Andrew (47:07):
Probably just, something salty.
Like a pb and j sandwich wouldbe totally fine.
Pull out of the bag, just kindof munching that, walking
around.

Missy (47:13):
What's your favorite animal sighting?

Andrew (47:16):
You know what I saw, when I was a kid, we were in
Canada.
My grandmother still lives inCanada, near Ottawa, and we saw
a Lynx one time, and I thoughtthat was the coolest thing.
I went and bought an Ottawa Lynxhat.
I remember this was like 1992,and I had this Ottawa Lynx hat
because I thought that was thecoolest thing I ever saw.

Missy (47:33):
What's your favorite sound in the park?

Andrew (47:36):
I love, I love to hear, uh, like owls out in the park,
but I really just like, tolisten to different bird noises
I've, started to download andlisten to some different bird
calls and things just so thatwhen I'm out in the park, people
will ask you tons of stuff likethat so I've been and, and, and
trying to identify differentspecies of birds on when I'm on
the battlefield.

Missy (47:54):
And finally, what is the greatest gift that parks give to
us?

Andrew (47:58):
A place of reflection.
I've heard great stories about,survival and life and hardship
and people that, that foundthemselves at their lowest point
and that they just needed aplace to go to be able to
reflect and unwind or just havesome semblance of peace.

(48:24):
and A national park is going togive you whatever you want it
because they're diverse and theyoffer so many different
opportunities for anyone, to cutloose.
And the good part is they'reours.
That's the thing that I like themost, is that, they're for the
people.
There, There are spaces that arepreserved and conserved for

(48:44):
people so that we have a placeto go to when we need that
opportunity.

Missy (48:49):
Andrew, thank you so much for spending time with us, for
sharing your passion for thispark and teaching us about Mill
Springs Battlefield.

Andrew (48:57):
Yeah, absolutely.
We're here for you, so, anybodythat wants to come out, we're
looking forward to chatting withyou.
Thanks for the opportunity.

Missy (49:05):
Absolutely.
That's it for today's episode.
Until next time, we'll see youin the parks.
Thanks for listening.
If you enjoyed today's episode,please be sure to like and share
on your favorite podcastplatform.
Music for the parks podcast isperformed and produced by Porter
Hardy.
For more information, pleasefollow us on Instagram at the

(49:26):
parks podcast.
Or visit [e-mail].