June 9, 2025 • 32 mins
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When it seems like everyone on social media is criticizing 12-step programs, where can you find the truth about what really works for addiction recovery? Matt Brown dives into groundbreaking Stanford University research that examined 35 studies involving 10,080 participants to answer a simple question: Does Alcoholics Anonymous actually work?
The science is startlingly clear. AA was found to be "nearly always more effective than psychotherapy in achieving abstinence," while significantly reducing healthcare costs. This research, led by Dr. Keith Humphreys (who initially dismissed AA himself), provides compelling evidence that the social connection component of 12-step programs creates powerful healing that formal therapy alone often can't match.
Matt shares his own journey from homeless, penniless alcoholic to 22 years of sobriety, addressing his initial resistance to AA's core concepts: the disease model and belief in a higher power. His story reveals how the social connection and accountability found in meetings ultimately saved his life, despite his skepticism.
Whether you're questioning the value of AA for yourself or a loved one struggling with addiction, this episode offers research-backed insights without judgment. Matt emphasizes that while multiple paths to recovery exist, discounting effective options based on misconceptions can have life-or-death consequences. For anyone concerned about addiction, this evidence-based perspective on what truly works could be the most important thing you hear today.
Email your questions or comments to Matt at matt@partywreckers.com, and don't forget to join the new Sunday night meetings starting June 15th at 8pm Pacific time.
Join us Every Sunday at 8:00 PM PST and Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday Night at 8:00 PM EST/5:00PST for a FREE family support group. Register at the following link to get the zoom information sent to you: Family Support Meeting
About our sponsor(s):
Intervention on Call is on online platform that allows families and support systems to get immediate coaching and direction from a professional interventionist. While a professional intervention can be a powerful experience for change, not every family needs a professionally led intervention. For families who either don't need or can't afford a professional intervention, we can help. Hour sessions are $150.
Therapy is a very important way to take care of your mental health. This can happen from the comfort of your own home or office. If you need therapy and want to get a discount on your first month of services please try Better Help.
If you want to know more about the host's private practice please visit:
Matt Brown: Freedom Interventions
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Matt: @mattbrowninterventionist
If you have a question that we can answer on the show, please email us at matt@partywreckers.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the Party Wreckers podcast, hosted by
seasoned addictioninterventionist, Matt Brown.
This is a podcast for familiesor individuals with loved ones
who are struggling withaddiction or alcoholism.
(00:22):
Perhaps they are reluctant toget the help that they need.
We are here to educate andentertain you while removing the
fear from the conversation.
Stick with us and we will getyou through it.
Welcome the original partywrecker, Matt Brown.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Welcome back.
Thank you guys for tuning infor another episode.
My name is Matt Brown, I'm yourhost.
I am an addictioninterventionist and have been
for the last 22 years 21 yearsnow.
I've been sober for 22 and beendoing this kind of work since I
had a year sober and love everyminute of it and I appreciate
(01:13):
you guys giving me a little bitof your time today to listen in
and I hope that you know today'stopic will be of interest to
you.
It certainly was to me.
I may fumble around a littlebit as we get into this, just
because I've got an articleprinted out in front of me here
and I'm going to want to talk alittle bit about some data.
I found this to be veryinteresting, but before I launch
(01:35):
into that, let me just announcethat starting this Sunday, june
15th, and every other Sundayafter that, intervention on Call
is now doing a Sunday nightmeeting at 8 pm Pacific time.
For those of us out here on theWest, my friend Pej, who's an
interventionist out of LosAngeles, and myself we will be
(01:58):
hosting the Sunday nightmeetings If you have a loved one
in active addiction and, forwhatever reason, have found it
difficult to make the Monday andThursday meetings because
they're at 5 pm Pacific time.
We wanted to start a West Coastmeeting that would be a little
bit easier for families out Westhere to attend and hopefully
have access to myself and Pejand other interventionists as
(02:21):
they join in to answer questionsand give you guys some guidance
.
Live on the Zoom meetings thatwe do every week, so I'd love to
see you there.
You can register atIntervention On Call.
Today's topic I want to talkabout something that I have been
seeing with a little bit morefrequency on social media.
I've been seeing a lot ofcontent creators talking about
(02:45):
the ineffectiveness and even theabuse of Alcoholics Anonymous
and other 12-step fellowships.
There's a lot of people outthere right now that are hating
on the 12-step process forwhatever reason, and we can get
into that and just kind of thefundamental premise of AA, and
(03:06):
some of them have experiencedsome abuse in treatment centers
where the 12 steps were used.
I won't get into, you know allof that.
I'm sure you can find theircontent if you look for it.
But you know, because I am a 12step guy, you know my my
initial reaction was to get alittle bit defensive and to to
(03:27):
come on here and, just you know,do what I can to try to defend
AA and to defend the 12 steps,and once I did my best to move
my ego aside, I realized that AAdoesn't necessarily need me to
defend it.
Um, it's been doing quite wellon its own without me.
But I do want to bring somethings to light here and
(03:48):
hopefully maybe provide adifferent voice out there in all
the noise that's going on.
And so, if you'll indulge me, Iwould like to be a different
kind of voice than maybe some ofthose that are out on social
media talking about AA in anegative way.
On social media talking aboutAA in a negative way.
(04:08):
Let me first and foremost saythat AA saved my life when I
decided to get sober.
I had had an intervention twoyears prior, did not want to go
to treatment, refused to gethelp, and it took me two more
years before I finally decidedthat it was time to start
looking into making a change.
At the time, I was homeless, Iwas penniless and was not going
(04:32):
to go back to my family and letthem know like, hey, I think you
were right, I think I have aproblem and I think I need some
help.
My pride was still much toothick, much too heavy, whatever
the appropriate way to say thatmight be uh, to really let to to
admit that I had been wrong.
So I went you know, privatelyto to an AA meeting and
(04:54):
discovered that there were somepeople there that were happy
that they were sober and, moreimportantly, that they they
invited me to come back andthere was a social element to it
that really attracted me, moreso even than whether or not they
were getting sober.
Fundamental flaws, just in myinitial glance at what AA had,
(05:16):
there were two fundamental flawsin what they believed, or what
I might have to believe should Iend up going there.
The first one was that thepeople who went to AA believed
(05:38):
that they had a disease, and Iabsolutely rejected the idea
that alcoholism was a disease.
I thought that was a cop-out.
I thought it was just a reallyeasy way for people to avoid
taking responsibility for all ofthe mistakes and bad decisions
that they had been making andthat alcoholism was a choice.
And while I did believe I wasan alcoholic, I did not want to
(06:00):
believe that I had a disease.
I felt like that was just areal cop-out and it was just.
You know, if I went to AA, Iwas going to listen to a bunch
of people come up with a bunchof excuses about how they had a
disease and they couldn't helpbut be alcoholics.
The second reason that I avoidedAA and 12-step rooms was
because they believed in God,and growing up the way that I
(06:23):
did, I experienced the idea ofGod as being very punitive, very
hurtful, and by the time I wasready to get sober, I was
calling myself an atheist.
I rejected the belief in God.
I rejected the idea of God andthe idea that the only way for
(06:46):
me to be sober was for me tohave some sort of a belief in
God or in a higher power.
I wanted nothing to do withthat.
I would rather have a fistfightwith you than talk to you about
God, and so that probably keptme away from the 12-step rooms
longer than I needed to be there.
But by the time life had beat meup to the point where I was
(07:08):
ready to get some help, Ithought well, you know what,
what could it hurt to go in andtake a look?
Humility was starting to set in, and when I went and
experienced my first meeting, itwas a Sunday morning gratitude
meeting and there were aboutfive or six other guys in the
room and there were all men.
(07:28):
There were no women in the roomand it wasn't a men's meeting,
but there just happened to be aroom full of men and they put
their arm around me, they mademe feel welcome, they invited me
to come back the next day andfor me that was an experience I
hadn't had for a while.
I was made to feel welcome, Iwas made to feel like I belonged
and I was invited back.
(07:49):
I had not been invited backsomewhere in a long, long time.
Once people got a little tasteof what I was all about.
I rarely got invited backanywhere at that point in my
life and so initially the hookfor me was that I went because
there was a group of people thatI felt like might understand me
(08:10):
, that might get me, and theydidn't reject me right out.
If you've listened to previousepisodes that, you've kind of
heard that.
But after hearing me share alittle bit about my story and my
experience, these men while Ithought that I was immediately
(08:32):
going to get rejected, theydidn't.
They made me feel welcome andthey asked me to come back, and
that's been my experiencethroughout my journey in the 12
steps is that part of ourresponsibility is to hold out
our hand to the newcomer and tomake that newcomer feel like
they're welcome because we dounderstand them.
The details of our stories arevery, very different.
(08:54):
In many cases there'sdifferences between the men and
the women in the programs, theold and the young in the
programs that we can always findthe differences.
But underneath it all, we allknow what it's like to feel the
way that that newcomer feelswhen they walk into the room
scared and beaten and justwhipped by the world.
(09:15):
Nobody comes to AA becausethey're sliding in on a winning
streak.
We've all had some consequencesand we all come with our tail
between our legs, hoping thatmaybe this isn't going to be as
bad as it otherwise, as we'remaking it out to be in our head.
And you know, some people comein because they they they're
taken by a treatment program.
(09:35):
Some people come in because thecourts tell them that they have
to and they've got to have somany signatures.
You know so many.
You know vouched attendance atat at different meetings
signatures you know so many, youknow vouched attendance at
different meetings.
But it's our job as people whohave gotten our recovery in the
12 steps, to hold out our handand make those people feel
(09:56):
welcome.
And so I say that just to kindof set the stage and maybe to
paint a little bit of a pictureas to why my initial reaction to
some of the hate that I see outthere is what it is Now, as
I've been talking with families,especially in the weekly Zoom
meetings that we're doing withfamilies, there was a dad the
other night that was talkingabout his son and his son had a
(10:17):
real resistance to going tomeetings and speaking in groups.
He says I don't want to go tomeetings, I don't want to be in
groups because all they talkabout is alcohol and drugs and
for me that makes me want to usemore and I don't buy that.
I think that's a cop out.
I think that that is earlyrecovery.
(10:40):
It's what happens in earlyrecovery for almost all of us.
It's it's it's what happens inearly recovery for almost all of
us.
Nobody wakes up one day andsays you know what?
I think I'm gonna get sober andand doesn't go through that,
that process where we have thatobsession.
We have those, those cravingsand and the idea that I'm gonna
go to a meeting and somehowthat's gonna trigger that
(11:01):
response in me.
That response is already there.
That response in early recovery.
I couldn't walk past a barwithout wanting to go in.
Even that stale smell of beer.
Walking past a bar is that whathit me.
As it came out the door andhearing people laugh on the
inside, there was something,just this romantic idea that,
wow, I'm really missing out.
The cravings, the obsession,all of those things my brain was
(11:26):
telling me you need to be inthere drinking with the rest of
them.
Thank goodness I didn't.
But anybody that says that theydon't go through that in early
recovery, regardless of whetherthey're talking in a meeting or
listening to other people speakin a meeting.
It's not the meetings thatcause that, it's the recovery
process.
As we get further and furtheraway from our last drink and
(11:46):
actually dive into the work,those things get easier.
So don't buy it when your lovedone is telling you I can't do
this, because every time I go toa meeting, all I want to do is
I come out wanting to drink morethan I did when I went in.
That's nonsense.
I just want everybody to hearthat.
That is utter nonsense.
Now, having said all of that, Icame across this article.
(12:09):
It's actually it was put out in2020 by the Stanford School of
Medicine, and I would say thatthat's a pretty reputable source
.
The title of the article isAlcoholics Anonymous Most
Effective Path to AlcoholAbstinence.
Article is Alcoholics AnonymousMost Effective Path to Alcohol
Abstinence.
And the reason that I really amkind of diving into this
(12:32):
particular article and you mayhave heard me talk about other
articles or other studies inprevious episodes, but the thing
that I like about studies whereI can really kind of dig into
them is when you haveresearchers or scientists or
doctors that will not just takea single sample size.
You got in this particularstudy.
(12:52):
They had 35 studies involvingthe work of 145 scientists and
the outcomes of 10,080participants, so it's not a
single study.
This is 35 different studies,and of these 35 studies sorry,
I'm flipping pages here ifyou're hearing this the
(13:13):
researchers found 57 studies onAA.
Of those, only 35 passed theirrigorous criteria for quality,
criteria for quality.
So they excluded some of thestudies that they found, just
because the criteria that theywere looking at in terms of
measurements, these otherstudies didn't meet that
criteria.
They didn't feel like the datawas solid enough to include in
(13:33):
the research they were doing atthe time.
So I appreciate that they werewilling to exclude some of the
studies, even if the data was toback up what their findings
were.
They excluded those studies andit really, at least in my mind,
helped solidify the fact thatthey went about this in an
unbiased way.
They went about this in a waythat really they wanted to show
(13:54):
whether or not AA particularly.
They did not look at NA or anyof the other anonymous
organizations.
They specifically looked at AA,but they wanted to see is this
as effective as people say it is?
Keith Humphreys, a PhD professorof psychiatry and behavioral
sciences, and his fellowinvestigators determined that AA
(14:17):
was nearly always found to bemore effective than
psychotherapy in achievingabstinence.
In addition, most studiesshowed that AA participation
lowered healthcare costs.
It's free.
You know that's the otherbenefit.
Especially when I went to AA, Ididn't have two pennies to rub
together.
I needed something that wasgoing to be absolutely free, and
(14:39):
so that was the other thingthat attracted me to.
That is that you know I can goand I could participate, and
nobody expected me to contribute.
Yeah, they passed the basketand you know we have the seventh
tradition where we'reself-supporting through our own
contributions.
But nobody looked at me inthose early days and said, hey,
buddy, where's your dollar forthe basket?
You know they understood whereI was at.
(15:00):
It's readily available.
The thing that I appreciatedabout this is that they found
that it was nearly always moreeffective than psychotherapy in
achieving abstinence.
This was put out by Dr KeithHumphreys, a PhD professor of
(15:22):
psychiatry and behavioralsciences.
So and I'll get into this alittle bit further in the
article but you have somebodywho's educationally accomplished
and is discovering that thisanonymous organization, this
organization where there's noleadership, there's no clinical
(15:42):
components, there's notherapists or doctors running
the groups, that it was almostalways more effective than
psychotherapy alone.
As we get into this a littlebit, one of the things that he
says is AA works because it'sbased on social interaction.
And you know, like I sharedfrom my own experience
(16:04):
experience I believe, thatthat's the case for me.
The hook for me was the socialcomponent.
I didn't feel alone and youknow, some of you may have heard
from your loved ones, well, Ihate being in groups, I don't
want to go to groups, I don'twant to go to meetings.
I don't want to have to listento other people, I don't want to
talk in front of other people.
I would rather just doone-on-one therapy.
(16:25):
And I've heard severaltherapists who work primarily in
behavioral health and addictionrecovery who have said and I
tend to see this this way isthat if I were designing a
treatment center or if they youknow the way they put it if they
(16:45):
were designing a treatmentcenter, there would be no
individual therapy, there wouldonly be group.
And I think there's some wisdomto that.
When you look at the socialelements and really trying to
break down those barriers ofdifferences, you know people go
into treatment all the timelooking for differences.
I'm not like them.
(17:06):
I'm not like these people overhere.
Time looking for differences.
I'm not like them.
I'm not like these people overhere.
I'm too old, I'm too young, I'ma professional, I've made too
much money or the opposite.
There's always differences thatwe can look for.
But when you get down below thesurface level stuff and you
really start to dig in, I haveeverything in common with the
(17:27):
homeless guy that's coming intohis first meeting, as they had
with me when I was the homelessguy coming into my first meeting
and even though my life looksvery different today than it did
back then, the experience withhow I felt back then is the same
experience that I continued tostruggle with both before and
(17:49):
after I got sober.
And so, you know, one of thethings that he said in this
paper was if you want to changeyour behavior, find some other
people who are trying to makethe same change.
All of a sudden, you've got acommon goal.
You're all working forsomething, even though you're
working for it individually inyour own lives.
(18:09):
Everybody's there with a commonpurpose.
Everybody there wants to besober and help others achieve
sobriety.
Everybody there wants to besober and to help others achieve
sobriety.
And, you know, even thoughthere's a lot of skeptics out
there, there's a lot of peopleout there that really want to
run AA down.
It's.
We are all there for a commonpurpose.
(18:33):
Nobody.
You know I don't get anything.
I don't gain any advantage overthe new guy coming in.
You know the people that werethere before me weren't looking
to take advantage of me orgetting anything out of me.
Are there people that I wishwouldn't say sometimes the
things that they say?
Are there people that getoffended and don't come back
because of what they hear inmeetings.
Absolutely, I've been that guy,I've been the guy that got
(18:55):
offended and I've been the guythat said something that I
shouldn't have.
You know, and, and the idea isis that we have to.
You know, we, we hear this inevery meeting.
You know that there's a reasonfor anonymity, there's a reason
for that spiritual principle,and it reminds us to place
principles before personalities,to place principles before
(19:22):
personalities.
And when I find that mypersonality is in conflict with
something that I hear in ameeting or something that I hear
from an individual, you know,when I first came to AA, my
thought was well, I have toremember that I have to practice
principles instead of payingattention to all these people's
awful personalities.
I thought it was talking aboutall the people that were going
to offend me and thepersonalities that would push me
(19:45):
away, and I have to rememberthat I'm there to follow some
principles.
And it wasn't until later thatI realized that it was talking
about my shitty personality, myawful personality.
That was the personality thatreally needed to change and that
the principles would help me dothat, the principles that
recovery would allow me to learnand practice Things like
(20:07):
forgiveness and honesty andintegrity, and all of these
things that we learn how to doas people in recovery that run
completely contrary to what ourpersonalities develop to be.
In addiction.
We become these selfish andself-centered people that are
only concerned about what wewant, when we want it, how we
want it.
And as we practice theseprinciples of recovery, we begin
(20:32):
to develop differentpersonalities.
We begin to experience whatoftentimes we refer to as a
psychic change, where we beginto develop this new identity.
And it only happens as otherpeople hold this mirror up to me
.
And while I love therapy and Ihave a therapist and I go to
therapy even now, I think thatit's important that people that
(20:56):
have no vested interest in whatmy life looks like are able to
hold a mirror up and I allowthem to hold me accountable,
because they're going home totheir families, they're not
going to spend their nightsthinking about whether or not
you know he listened to me, ishe going to do what I told him
to do, and there's no financialgain for them.
Whether I do it or not.
You know, I pay my therapistwhen I go to therapy, you know,
(21:17):
and while I don't think she's init for the money.
It's a.
It's a business just like as meas an interventionist.
This is how I make my living.
I'm an interventionist and Iwork with families who have
addicted loved ones and and Ithink that's the difference
where we have to really makethat distinction of you know, is
this service work or is thisprofessional work, especially
(21:38):
for those of us that work inthis industry?
Let me just jump to a differentpage here because there's a lot
to go over.
So, as it was getting into kindof the outcomes Of these 35
different studies that he did,you know, the 149 scientists,
(22:01):
the 10,080 participantsdifferent studies had different
results.
Of the 57 studies that wereoriginally seen, the 35 that
passed, they weren't allconsistently universal in what
their metrics were.
They weren't all consistentlyuniversal in what their metrics
were, but some of them weretesting for different criteria,
(22:22):
not just simply success ratesacross the board.
In terms of abstinence, onestudy looked at okay, what does
it save in terms of healthcarecosts?
One study found that it wasabout 60% more effective than
other recovery programs ortherapy or treatment.
None of the studies found AA tobe less effective and I found
(22:47):
that to be pretty remarkablethat, while there's a ton of
naysayers out there andeverybody's out there.
I shouldn't say everybody.
That's a sweepinggeneralization.
Everybody's out there.
I shouldn't say everybody.
That's a sweepinggeneralization.
When you have as many peoplethat are out there on a platform
(23:07):
on social media talking abouthow AA ruins lives, how it's a
cult, how people getindoctrinated and they have to
believe that they're powerlessand their lives are unmanageable
and you know, when you have somany different ways to get sober
and stay sober and I'm notsaying that AA is the only way.
Please hear that.
I am not saying that but whatthey found is that there were
(23:30):
there were no studies found itto be less effective than any
other recovery model.
One study found that AA and12-step facilitation counseling
reduced mental health costs by$10,000 per person.
You know Dr Humphreys, who wasthe original author of you know
(23:52):
the compilation of all these.
You know he, the compilation ofall these.
You know he.
I think he struggled a littlebit and I'm trying to find it
here.
Forgive me for the page turning.
He even says in this article hesays early in his career,
humphrey said he dismissed AA,thinking how dare these people
do things that I have all thesedegrees to do.
(24:15):
It was almost as though you knowfrom this lofty, you know
mountaintop.
He was saying I have gone toschool and I have all these
degrees.
Therefore, the way that Ibelieve this should happen
should carry more weight andmore validity than than these
untrained, unprofessional peoplethat are out there trying to
help everybody.
But through the course of goingthrough all these different
(24:36):
studies, the evidence wasirrefutable and I found it
pretty transparent and prettyhonest for him to say something
like that.
How dare these people do thingsthat I have all these degrees
to do?
I'm really grateful for therecovery that I have and, while
(25:01):
I certainly have a slant,because my own recovery started
in the rooms of AlcoholicsAnonymous, like I said before, I
don't think that everybody hasto go to AA to get sober or go
to NA to get sober, but I knowthat there's a lot of us out
there that are giving ourselvesreasons and excuses as to why we
(25:21):
shouldn't have to do it thatway.
And, and you know, just likewith me, I don't want to do this
because I don't want to believethat I have a disease and I
don't want to have to believethat there's a higher power.
You know, I want to believethat I'm in control and I can do
this my way in my time frame.
And we wrestle for control andI think that you know a lot of
(25:41):
these other recovery modalitieswhile they may be newer, and you
know you can call themevidence-based or best practices
or all the buzzwords thathappen that we hear in the
circles of recovery.
Right, I want to say thiswithout trying to sound
(26:01):
demeaning, because I think thateverybody out there trying to
help somebody else get sober isdoing good work.
I don't want to take anythingaway from them and if you have a
loved one that needs to getsober, if you are listening and
you're struggling with yoursobriety yourself and you want
to investigate a different typeof recovery modality, please do.
I think any effort that any ofus can make to try to stay sober
(26:24):
is a noble thing.
It's an effort that should beapplauded and encouraged and
supported.
It doesn't have to be in AA.
I know for me it worked.
I know for me it gave me thetools early on to be able to
start seeing myself and the waythat I fit into the world in a
very, very different way.
(26:44):
It helped me to break thatcycle of selfishness and
self-centeredness and it helpedme to really become more aware
of who I was and how I fit intothe world.
And yes, at one point I put downmy bias against God and while I
don't ascribe to any particularreligion or any church, I do
(27:05):
have a belief system that worksfor me.
I do believe in God and Ibelieve that there's a higher
power out there that if I, youknow, like the third step says,
if I practice turning my willand my life over to the care of
God, as I understand him, mylife has improved because of
that.
Now, that doesn't mean that I'msuccessful at doing that every
(27:26):
single day, but on the days thatI do it, I find that I'm more
at peace and I'm less likely toget into self-will and try to
run the show myself and get backinto some of those old
behaviors.
So you know, on a lot of this,guys, I'm just speaking for
(27:48):
myself.
I'm sure there are a lot ofpeople out there that have
different opinions than the onesthat I'm expressing today and
the ones that this studyexpressed.
Good, you know, I think theworld needs all these voices.
I don't think that, you know,you should even take my word for
it or take the words you know.
I think the world needs allthese voices.
I don't think that you know youshould even take my word for it
or take the words you know fromthis study.
(28:08):
I'm just.
I, like I said in the from the,from the outset, I just wanted
to provide a different voicethan the ones that you may be
hearing out on social media thatare really trying to run.
What I feel like is somethingthat saved my life into the
ground.
Really trying to run.
What I feel like is somethingthat saved my life into the
ground.
And if it's not for you or ifit's not for your loved one, hey
(28:31):
, I get it.
But if the reasons that yourloved one or you may be staying
away are superficial reasonslike the ones that I had, I
would say maybe it's worthlooking at this from a different
point of view.
Maybe it's worth challengingthose beliefs that just don't
serve you anymore, because Iknow that the beliefs that I had
, as much as I thought that Iwas right, they weren't helping
me live a better life and theresults were there for me.
(28:54):
The results weren't what Iwanted them to be.
And when you're dealing withsomething that, in a very
literal way, is can can be lifeand death, the results matter.
And so if you're struggling, oryour loved one is struggling,
with sobriety and they've goneto treatment and they've been
encouraged to go to meetings andthey don't want to because they
don't like it, it doesn't it,it triggers them to, to want to
(29:17):
drink or use more, or you know,whatever the reasons are, I
don't want to have to believethe way those people believe.
Well, I know, early on, mybrain needed a little washing.
I'm not saying that we're allbrainwashed, but given the
thoughts that I was having andthe beliefs that I had, my brain
(29:38):
can use a little bit of a goodscrubbing, if you know what I
mean.
And and you know I was able tocome into the rooms and and find
a way to not be a mindlessdrone.
Just you know, repeating 12principles or 12 steps to you
know, to help others get soberand to help myself get sober.
I found a group of people verydifferent from one another, all
(29:59):
united behind a common purposeto get sober and to help others
to achieve sobriety.
And and while there were somany differences in that room
and I could have found hundreds,I could have found hundreds of
reasons once I got in to say youknow what?
I don't belong here.
But the thing that kept mecoming back is that, of all
(30:20):
these differences and all thedifferent personalities and all
the things that were in therooms that I could have balked
at.
People wanted me there, peopleloved me when I felt like I was
unlovable.
And if for no other reason,come on in the water's.
Fine, let us love on you alittle bit.
(30:42):
Let us help Find a meeting inyour local area.
If you don't get a good feelingfrom it, try a different one.
You know there's some stinkersout there.
I'm not going to lie to you.
There's some stinkers ofmeetings out there.
You know you'll get in thereand you're just going to find
like, hey, these are not thepeople that I want to get sober
with.
Okay, go find a differentmeeting.
And and if, after reallyinvestigating it and really
(31:05):
working through the steps, youfind that, hey, this is not
something that I want to keepdoing.
Man, good for you, go trysomething else.
There are so many paths to thetop of the mountain.
You know this is one of many.
It's one that's worked for meand millions of other people,
many.
It's one that's worked for meand millions of other people and
, like I said, I just want to bea voice of maybe a positive
(31:26):
outcome and seeing the positiveoutcomes that it creates for
other people.
If you have questions, if youhave comments, if you feel like
I'm completely off base andyou've got another study that
you'd like for me to read, sendme an email.
Matt, at partyrecordscom, I'llput a link to this study in the
show notes for anybody thatwants to go and reference it.
(31:48):
But if you've got other ideasor if you find other studies
that refute what I've said, sendthem my way.
Let's start a dialogue here.
I really appreciate theinteraction that I've been
getting with you guys latelyfrom some of the emails that
I've been getting.
We'll do another Q&A show herecoming up soon, but until then,
guys, I hope your loved oneswill get sober and stay sober.
(32:09):
Thanks for tuning in.
Speaker 1 (32:14):
Thanks again for listening to the Party Wreckers.
If you liked what you heard,please leave us a rating and a
review.
This helps us get the word outto more people, to learn more or
to ask us a question we cananswer in a future episode.
Please visit us atPartyWreckerscom and remember
(32:36):
don't enable addiction ever.
Welcome to the Party Wreckers podcast, hosted by
seasoned addictioninterventionist, Matt Brown.
This is a podcast for familiesor individuals with loved ones
who are struggling withaddiction or alcoholism.
(00:22):
Perhaps they are reluctant toget the help that they need.
We are here to educate andentertain you while removing the
fear from the conversation.
Stick with us and we will getyou through it.
Welcome the original partywrecker, Matt Brown.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Welcome back.
Thank you guys for tuning infor another episode.
My name is Matt Brown, I'm yourhost.
I am an addictioninterventionist and have been
for the last 22 years 21 yearsnow.
I've been sober for 22 and beendoing this kind of work since I
had a year sober and love everyminute of it and I appreciate
(01:13):
you guys giving me a little bitof your time today to listen in
and I hope that you know today'stopic will be of interest to
you.
It certainly was to me.
I may fumble around a littlebit as we get into this, just
because I've got an articleprinted out in front of me here
and I'm going to want to talk alittle bit about some data.
I found this to be veryinteresting, but before I launch
(01:35):
into that, let me just announcethat starting this Sunday, june
15th, and every other Sundayafter that, intervention on Call
is now doing a Sunday nightmeeting at 8 pm Pacific time.
For those of us out here on theWest, my friend Pej, who's an
interventionist out of LosAngeles, and myself we will be
(01:58):
hosting the Sunday nightmeetings If you have a loved one
in active addiction and, forwhatever reason, have found it
difficult to make the Monday andThursday meetings because
they're at 5 pm Pacific time.
We wanted to start a West Coastmeeting that would be a little
bit easier for families out Westhere to attend and hopefully
have access to myself and Pejand other interventionists as
(02:21):
they join in to answer questionsand give you guys some guidance
.
Live on the Zoom meetings thatwe do every week, so I'd love to
see you there.
You can register atIntervention On Call.
Today's topic I want to talkabout something that I have been
seeing with a little bit morefrequency on social media.
I've been seeing a lot ofcontent creators talking about
(02:45):
the ineffectiveness and even theabuse of Alcoholics Anonymous
and other 12-step fellowships.
There's a lot of people outthere right now that are hating
on the 12-step process forwhatever reason, and we can get
into that and just kind of thefundamental premise of AA, and
(03:06):
some of them have experiencedsome abuse in treatment centers
where the 12 steps were used.
I won't get into, you know allof that.
I'm sure you can find theircontent if you look for it.
But you know, because I am a 12step guy, you know my my
initial reaction was to get alittle bit defensive and to to
(03:27):
come on here and, just you know,do what I can to try to defend
AA and to defend the 12 steps,and once I did my best to move
my ego aside, I realized that AAdoesn't necessarily need me to
defend it.
Um, it's been doing quite wellon its own without me.
But I do want to bring somethings to light here and
(03:48):
hopefully maybe provide adifferent voice out there in all
the noise that's going on.
And so, if you'll indulge me, Iwould like to be a different
kind of voice than maybe some ofthose that are out on social
media talking about AA in anegative way.
On social media talking aboutAA in a negative way.
(04:08):
Let me first and foremost saythat AA saved my life when I
decided to get sober.
I had had an intervention twoyears prior, did not want to go
to treatment, refused to gethelp, and it took me two more
years before I finally decidedthat it was time to start
looking into making a change.
At the time, I was homeless, Iwas penniless and was not going
(04:32):
to go back to my family and letthem know like, hey, I think you
were right, I think I have aproblem and I think I need some
help.
My pride was still much toothick, much too heavy, whatever
the appropriate way to say thatmight be uh, to really let to to
admit that I had been wrong.
So I went you know, privatelyto to an AA meeting and
(04:54):
discovered that there were somepeople there that were happy
that they were sober and, moreimportantly, that they they
invited me to come back andthere was a social element to it
that really attracted me, moreso even than whether or not they
were getting sober.
Fundamental flaws, just in myinitial glance at what AA had,
(05:16):
there were two fundamental flawsin what they believed, or what
I might have to believe should Iend up going there.
The first one was that thepeople who went to AA believed
(05:38):
that they had a disease, and Iabsolutely rejected the idea
that alcoholism was a disease.
I thought that was a cop-out.
I thought it was just a reallyeasy way for people to avoid
taking responsibility for all ofthe mistakes and bad decisions
that they had been making andthat alcoholism was a choice.
And while I did believe I wasan alcoholic, I did not want to
(06:00):
believe that I had a disease.
I felt like that was just areal cop-out and it was just.
You know, if I went to AA, Iwas going to listen to a bunch
of people come up with a bunchof excuses about how they had a
disease and they couldn't helpbut be alcoholics.
The second reason that I avoidedAA and 12-step rooms was
because they believed in God,and growing up the way that I
(06:23):
did, I experienced the idea ofGod as being very punitive, very
hurtful, and by the time I wasready to get sober, I was
calling myself an atheist.
I rejected the belief in God.
I rejected the idea of God andthe idea that the only way for
(06:46):
me to be sober was for me tohave some sort of a belief in
God or in a higher power.
I wanted nothing to do withthat.
I would rather have a fistfightwith you than talk to you about
God, and so that probably keptme away from the 12-step rooms
longer than I needed to be there.
But by the time life had beat meup to the point where I was
(07:08):
ready to get some help, Ithought well, you know what,
what could it hurt to go in andtake a look?
Humility was starting to set in, and when I went and
experienced my first meeting, itwas a Sunday morning gratitude
meeting and there were aboutfive or six other guys in the
room and there were all men.
(07:28):
There were no women in the roomand it wasn't a men's meeting,
but there just happened to be aroom full of men and they put
their arm around me, they mademe feel welcome, they invited me
to come back the next day andfor me that was an experience I
hadn't had for a while.
I was made to feel welcome, Iwas made to feel like I belonged
and I was invited back.
(07:49):
I had not been invited backsomewhere in a long, long time.
Once people got a little tasteof what I was all about.
I rarely got invited backanywhere at that point in my
life and so initially the hookfor me was that I went because
there was a group of people thatI felt like might understand me
(08:10):
, that might get me, and theydidn't reject me right out.
If you've listened to previousepisodes that, you've kind of
heard that.
But after hearing me share alittle bit about my story and my
experience, these men while Ithought that I was immediately
(08:32):
going to get rejected, theydidn't.
They made me feel welcome andthey asked me to come back, and
that's been my experiencethroughout my journey in the 12
steps is that part of ourresponsibility is to hold out
our hand to the newcomer and tomake that newcomer feel like
they're welcome because we dounderstand them.
The details of our stories arevery, very different.
(08:54):
In many cases there'sdifferences between the men and
the women in the programs, theold and the young in the
programs that we can always findthe differences.
But underneath it all, we allknow what it's like to feel the
way that that newcomer feelswhen they walk into the room
scared and beaten and justwhipped by the world.
(09:15):
Nobody comes to AA becausethey're sliding in on a winning
streak.
We've all had some consequencesand we all come with our tail
between our legs, hoping thatmaybe this isn't going to be as
bad as it otherwise, as we'remaking it out to be in our head.
And you know, some people comein because they they they're
taken by a treatment program.
(09:35):
Some people come in because thecourts tell them that they have
to and they've got to have somany signatures.
You know so many.
You know vouched attendance atat at different meetings
signatures you know so many, youknow vouched attendance at
different meetings.
But it's our job as people whohave gotten our recovery in the
12 steps, to hold out our handand make those people feel
(09:56):
welcome.
And so I say that just to kindof set the stage and maybe to
paint a little bit of a pictureas to why my initial reaction to
some of the hate that I see outthere is what it is Now, as
I've been talking with families,especially in the weekly Zoom
meetings that we're doing withfamilies, there was a dad the
other night that was talkingabout his son and his son had a
(10:17):
real resistance to going tomeetings and speaking in groups.
He says I don't want to go tomeetings, I don't want to be in
groups because all they talkabout is alcohol and drugs and
for me that makes me want to usemore and I don't buy that.
I think that's a cop out.
I think that that is earlyrecovery.
(10:40):
It's what happens in earlyrecovery for almost all of us.
It's it's it's what happens inearly recovery for almost all of
us.
Nobody wakes up one day andsays you know what?
I think I'm gonna get sober andand doesn't go through that,
that process where we have thatobsession.
We have those, those cravingsand and the idea that I'm gonna
go to a meeting and somehowthat's gonna trigger that
(11:01):
response in me.
That response is already there.
That response in early recovery.
I couldn't walk past a barwithout wanting to go in.
Even that stale smell of beer.
Walking past a bar is that whathit me.
As it came out the door andhearing people laugh on the
inside, there was something,just this romantic idea that,
wow, I'm really missing out.
The cravings, the obsession,all of those things my brain was
(11:26):
telling me you need to be inthere drinking with the rest of
them.
Thank goodness I didn't.
But anybody that says that theydon't go through that in early
recovery, regardless of whetherthey're talking in a meeting or
listening to other people speakin a meeting.
It's not the meetings thatcause that, it's the recovery
process.
As we get further and furtheraway from our last drink and
(11:46):
actually dive into the work,those things get easier.
So don't buy it when your lovedone is telling you I can't do
this, because every time I go toa meeting, all I want to do is
I come out wanting to drink morethan I did when I went in.
That's nonsense.
I just want everybody to hearthat.
That is utter nonsense.
Now, having said all of that, Icame across this article.
(12:09):
It's actually it was put out in2020 by the Stanford School of
Medicine, and I would say thatthat's a pretty reputable source
.
The title of the article isAlcoholics Anonymous Most
Effective Path to AlcoholAbstinence.
Article is Alcoholics AnonymousMost Effective Path to Alcohol
Abstinence.
And the reason that I really amkind of diving into this
(12:32):
particular article and you mayhave heard me talk about other
articles or other studies inprevious episodes, but the thing
that I like about studies whereI can really kind of dig into
them is when you haveresearchers or scientists or
doctors that will not just takea single sample size.
You got in this particularstudy.
(12:52):
They had 35 studies involvingthe work of 145 scientists and
the outcomes of 10,080participants, so it's not a
single study.
This is 35 different studies,and of these 35 studies sorry,
I'm flipping pages here ifyou're hearing this the
(13:13):
researchers found 57 studies onAA.
Of those, only 35 passed theirrigorous criteria for quality,
criteria for quality.
So they excluded some of thestudies that they found, just
because the criteria that theywere looking at in terms of
measurements, these otherstudies didn't meet that
criteria.
They didn't feel like the datawas solid enough to include in
(13:33):
the research they were doing atthe time.
So I appreciate that they werewilling to exclude some of the
studies, even if the data was toback up what their findings
were.
They excluded those studies andit really, at least in my mind,
helped solidify the fact thatthey went about this in an
unbiased way.
They went about this in a waythat really they wanted to show
(13:54):
whether or not AA particularly.
They did not look at NA or anyof the other anonymous
organizations.
They specifically looked at AA,but they wanted to see is this
as effective as people say it is?
Keith Humphreys, a PhD professorof psychiatry and behavioral
sciences, and his fellowinvestigators determined that AA
(14:17):
was nearly always found to bemore effective than
psychotherapy in achievingabstinence.
In addition, most studiesshowed that AA participation
lowered healthcare costs.
It's free.
You know that's the otherbenefit.
Especially when I went to AA, Ididn't have two pennies to rub
together.
I needed something that wasgoing to be absolutely free, and
(14:39):
so that was the other thingthat attracted me to.
That is that you know I can goand I could participate, and
nobody expected me to contribute.
Yeah, they passed the basketand you know we have the seventh
tradition where we'reself-supporting through our own
contributions.
But nobody looked at me inthose early days and said, hey,
buddy, where's your dollar forthe basket?
You know they understood whereI was at.
(15:00):
It's readily available.
The thing that I appreciatedabout this is that they found
that it was nearly always moreeffective than psychotherapy in
achieving abstinence.
This was put out by Dr KeithHumphreys, a PhD professor of
(15:22):
psychiatry and behavioralsciences.
So and I'll get into this alittle bit further in the
article but you have somebodywho's educationally accomplished
and is discovering that thisanonymous organization, this
organization where there's noleadership, there's no clinical
(15:42):
components, there's notherapists or doctors running
the groups, that it was almostalways more effective than
psychotherapy alone.
As we get into this a littlebit, one of the things that he
says is AA works because it'sbased on social interaction.
And you know, like I sharedfrom my own experience
(16:04):
experience I believe, thatthat's the case for me.
The hook for me was the socialcomponent.
I didn't feel alone and youknow, some of you may have heard
from your loved ones, well, Ihate being in groups, I don't
want to go to groups, I don'twant to go to meetings.
I don't want to have to listento other people, I don't want to
talk in front of other people.
I would rather just doone-on-one therapy.
(16:25):
And I've heard severaltherapists who work primarily in
behavioral health and addictionrecovery who have said and I
tend to see this this way isthat if I were designing a
treatment center or if they youknow the way they put it if they
(16:45):
were designing a treatmentcenter, there would be no
individual therapy, there wouldonly be group.
And I think there's some wisdomto that.
When you look at the socialelements and really trying to
break down those barriers ofdifferences, you know people go
into treatment all the timelooking for differences.
I'm not like them.
(17:06):
I'm not like these people overhere.
Time looking for differences.
I'm not like them.
I'm not like these people overhere.
I'm too old, I'm too young, I'ma professional, I've made too
much money or the opposite.
There's always differences thatwe can look for.
But when you get down below thesurface level stuff and you
really start to dig in, I haveeverything in common with the
(17:27):
homeless guy that's coming intohis first meeting, as they had
with me when I was the homelessguy coming into my first meeting
and even though my life looksvery different today than it did
back then, the experience withhow I felt back then is the same
experience that I continued tostruggle with both before and
(17:49):
after I got sober.
And so, you know, one of thethings that he said in this
paper was if you want to changeyour behavior, find some other
people who are trying to makethe same change.
All of a sudden, you've got acommon goal.
You're all working forsomething, even though you're
working for it individually inyour own lives.
(18:09):
Everybody's there with a commonpurpose.
Everybody there wants to besober and help others achieve
sobriety.
Everybody there wants to besober and to help others achieve
sobriety.
And, you know, even thoughthere's a lot of skeptics out
there, there's a lot of peopleout there that really want to
run AA down.
It's.
We are all there for a commonpurpose.
(18:33):
Nobody.
You know I don't get anything.
I don't gain any advantage overthe new guy coming in.
You know the people that werethere before me weren't looking
to take advantage of me orgetting anything out of me.
Are there people that I wishwouldn't say sometimes the
things that they say?
Are there people that getoffended and don't come back
because of what they hear inmeetings.
Absolutely, I've been that guy,I've been the guy that got
(18:55):
offended and I've been the guythat said something that I
shouldn't have.
You know, and, and the idea isis that we have to.
You know, we, we hear this inevery meeting.
You know that there's a reasonfor anonymity, there's a reason
for that spiritual principle,and it reminds us to place
principles before personalities,to place principles before
(19:22):
personalities.
And when I find that mypersonality is in conflict with
something that I hear in ameeting or something that I hear
from an individual, you know,when I first came to AA, my
thought was well, I have toremember that I have to practice
principles instead of payingattention to all these people's
awful personalities.
I thought it was talking aboutall the people that were going
to offend me and thepersonalities that would push me
(19:45):
away, and I have to rememberthat I'm there to follow some
principles.
And it wasn't until later thatI realized that it was talking
about my shitty personality, myawful personality.
That was the personality thatreally needed to change and that
the principles would help me dothat, the principles that
recovery would allow me to learnand practice Things like
(20:07):
forgiveness and honesty andintegrity, and all of these
things that we learn how to doas people in recovery that run
completely contrary to what ourpersonalities develop to be.
In addiction.
We become these selfish andself-centered people that are
only concerned about what wewant, when we want it, how we
want it.
And as we practice theseprinciples of recovery, we begin
(20:32):
to develop differentpersonalities.
We begin to experience whatoftentimes we refer to as a
psychic change, where we beginto develop this new identity.
And it only happens as otherpeople hold this mirror up to me
.
And while I love therapy and Ihave a therapist and I go to
therapy even now, I think thatit's important that people that
(20:56):
have no vested interest in whatmy life looks like are able to
hold a mirror up and I allowthem to hold me accountable,
because they're going home totheir families, they're not
going to spend their nightsthinking about whether or not
you know he listened to me, ishe going to do what I told him
to do, and there's no financialgain for them.
Whether I do it or not.
You know, I pay my therapistwhen I go to therapy, you know,
(21:17):
and while I don't think she's init for the money.
It's a.
It's a business just like as meas an interventionist.
This is how I make my living.
I'm an interventionist and Iwork with families who have
addicted loved ones and and Ithink that's the difference
where we have to really makethat distinction of you know, is
this service work or is thisprofessional work, especially
(21:38):
for those of us that work inthis industry?
Let me just jump to a differentpage here because there's a lot
to go over.
So, as it was getting into kindof the outcomes Of these 35
different studies that he did,you know, the 149 scientists,
(22:01):
the 10,080 participantsdifferent studies had different
results.
Of the 57 studies that wereoriginally seen, the 35 that
passed, they weren't allconsistently universal in what
their metrics were.
They weren't all consistentlyuniversal in what their metrics
were, but some of them weretesting for different criteria,
(22:22):
not just simply success ratesacross the board.
In terms of abstinence, onestudy looked at okay, what does
it save in terms of healthcarecosts?
One study found that it wasabout 60% more effective than
other recovery programs ortherapy or treatment.
None of the studies found AA tobe less effective and I found
(22:47):
that to be pretty remarkablethat, while there's a ton of
naysayers out there andeverybody's out there.
I shouldn't say everybody.
That's a sweepinggeneralization.
Everybody's out there.
I shouldn't say everybody.
That's a sweepinggeneralization.
When you have as many peoplethat are out there on a platform
(23:07):
on social media talking abouthow AA ruins lives, how it's a
cult, how people getindoctrinated and they have to
believe that they're powerlessand their lives are unmanageable
and you know, when you have somany different ways to get sober
and stay sober and I'm notsaying that AA is the only way.
Please hear that.
I am not saying that but whatthey found is that there were
(23:30):
there were no studies found itto be less effective than any
other recovery model.
One study found that AA and12-step facilitation counseling
reduced mental health costs by$10,000 per person.
You know Dr Humphreys, who wasthe original author of you know
(23:52):
the compilation of all these.
You know he, the compilation ofall these.
You know he.
I think he struggled a littlebit and I'm trying to find it
here.
Forgive me for the page turning.
He even says in this article hesays early in his career,
humphrey said he dismissed AA,thinking how dare these people
do things that I have all thesedegrees to do.
(24:15):
It was almost as though you knowfrom this lofty, you know
mountaintop.
He was saying I have gone toschool and I have all these
degrees.
Therefore, the way that Ibelieve this should happen
should carry more weight andmore validity than than these
untrained, unprofessional peoplethat are out there trying to
help everybody.
But through the course of goingthrough all these different
(24:36):
studies, the evidence wasirrefutable and I found it
pretty transparent and prettyhonest for him to say something
like that.
How dare these people do thingsthat I have all these degrees
to do?
I'm really grateful for therecovery that I have and, while
(25:01):
I certainly have a slant,because my own recovery started
in the rooms of AlcoholicsAnonymous, like I said before, I
don't think that everybody hasto go to AA to get sober or go
to NA to get sober, but I knowthat there's a lot of us out
there that are giving ourselvesreasons and excuses as to why we
(25:21):
shouldn't have to do it thatway.
And, and you know, just likewith me, I don't want to do this
because I don't want to believethat I have a disease and I
don't want to have to believethat there's a higher power.
You know, I want to believethat I'm in control and I can do
this my way in my time frame.
And we wrestle for control andI think that you know a lot of
(25:41):
these other recovery modalitieswhile they may be newer, and you
know you can call themevidence-based or best practices
or all the buzzwords thathappen that we hear in the
circles of recovery.
Right, I want to say thiswithout trying to sound
(26:01):
demeaning, because I think thateverybody out there trying to
help somebody else get sober isdoing good work.
I don't want to take anythingaway from them and if you have a
loved one that needs to getsober, if you are listening and
you're struggling with yoursobriety yourself and you want
to investigate a different typeof recovery modality, please do.
I think any effort that any ofus can make to try to stay sober
(26:24):
is a noble thing.
It's an effort that should beapplauded and encouraged and
supported.
It doesn't have to be in AA.
I know for me it worked.
I know for me it gave me thetools early on to be able to
start seeing myself and the waythat I fit into the world in a
very, very different way.
(26:44):
It helped me to break thatcycle of selfishness and
self-centeredness and it helpedme to really become more aware
of who I was and how I fit intothe world.
And yes, at one point I put downmy bias against God and while I
don't ascribe to any particularreligion or any church, I do
(27:05):
have a belief system that worksfor me.
I do believe in God and Ibelieve that there's a higher
power out there that if I, youknow, like the third step says,
if I practice turning my willand my life over to the care of
God, as I understand him, mylife has improved because of
that.
Now, that doesn't mean that I'msuccessful at doing that every
(27:26):
single day, but on the days thatI do it, I find that I'm more
at peace and I'm less likely toget into self-will and try to
run the show myself and get backinto some of those old
behaviors.
So you know, on a lot of this,guys, I'm just speaking for
(27:48):
myself.
I'm sure there are a lot ofpeople out there that have
different opinions than the onesthat I'm expressing today and
the ones that this studyexpressed.
Good, you know, I think theworld needs all these voices.
I don't think that, you know,you should even take my word for
it or take the words you know.
I think the world needs allthese voices.
I don't think that you know youshould even take my word for it
or take the words you know fromthis study.
(28:08):
I'm just.
I, like I said in the from the,from the outset, I just wanted
to provide a different voicethan the ones that you may be
hearing out on social media thatare really trying to run.
What I feel like is somethingthat saved my life into the
ground.
Really trying to run.
What I feel like is somethingthat saved my life into the
ground.
And if it's not for you or ifit's not for your loved one, hey
(28:31):
, I get it.
But if the reasons that yourloved one or you may be staying
away are superficial reasonslike the ones that I had, I
would say maybe it's worthlooking at this from a different
point of view.
Maybe it's worth challengingthose beliefs that just don't
serve you anymore, because Iknow that the beliefs that I had
, as much as I thought that Iwas right, they weren't helping
me live a better life and theresults were there for me.
(28:54):
The results weren't what Iwanted them to be.
And when you're dealing withsomething that, in a very
literal way, is can can be lifeand death, the results matter.
And so if you're struggling, oryour loved one is struggling,
with sobriety and they've goneto treatment and they've been
encouraged to go to meetings andthey don't want to because they
don't like it, it doesn't it,it triggers them to, to want to
(29:17):
drink or use more, or you know,whatever the reasons are, I
don't want to have to believethe way those people believe.
Well, I know, early on, mybrain needed a little washing.
I'm not saying that we're allbrainwashed, but given the
thoughts that I was having andthe beliefs that I had, my brain
(29:38):
can use a little bit of a goodscrubbing, if you know what I
mean.
And and you know I was able tocome into the rooms and and find
a way to not be a mindlessdrone.
Just you know, repeating 12principles or 12 steps to you
know, to help others get soberand to help myself get sober.
I found a group of people verydifferent from one another, all
(29:59):
united behind a common purposeto get sober and to help others
to achieve sobriety.
And and while there were somany differences in that room
and I could have found hundreds,I could have found hundreds of
reasons once I got in to say youknow what?
I don't belong here.
But the thing that kept mecoming back is that, of all
(30:20):
these differences and all thedifferent personalities and all
the things that were in therooms that I could have balked
at.
People wanted me there, peopleloved me when I felt like I was
unlovable.
And if for no other reason,come on in the water's.
Fine, let us love on you alittle bit.
(30:42):
Let us help Find a meeting inyour local area.
If you don't get a good feelingfrom it, try a different one.
You know there's some stinkersout there.
I'm not going to lie to you.
There's some stinkers ofmeetings out there.
You know you'll get in thereand you're just going to find
like, hey, these are not thepeople that I want to get sober
with.
Okay, go find a differentmeeting.
And and if, after reallyinvestigating it and really
(31:05):
working through the steps, youfind that, hey, this is not
something that I want to keepdoing.
Man, good for you, go trysomething else.
There are so many paths to thetop of the mountain.
You know this is one of many.
It's one that's worked for meand millions of other people,
many.
It's one that's worked for meand millions of other people and
, like I said, I just want to bea voice of maybe a positive
(31:26):
outcome and seeing the positiveoutcomes that it creates for
other people.
If you have questions, if youhave comments, if you feel like
I'm completely off base andyou've got another study that
you'd like for me to read, sendme an email.
Matt, at partyrecordscom, I'llput a link to this study in the
show notes for anybody thatwants to go and reference it.
(31:48):
But if you've got other ideasor if you find other studies
that refute what I've said, sendthem my way.
Let's start a dialogue here.
I really appreciate theinteraction that I've been
getting with you guys latelyfrom some of the emails that
I've been getting.
We'll do another Q&A show herecoming up soon, but until then,
guys, I hope your loved oneswill get sober and stay sober.
(32:09):
Thanks for tuning in.
Speaker 1 (32:14):
Thanks again for listening to the Party Wreckers.
If you liked what you heard,please leave us a rating and a
review.
This helps us get the word outto more people, to learn more or
to ask us a question we cananswer in a future episode.
Please visit us atPartyWreckerscom and remember
(32:36):
don't enable addiction ever.
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