November 11, 2025 • 51 mins
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The hardest truth for families to hear often becomes the most freeing: you can’t fix your loved one’s addiction—and you don’t have to. We sat down with clinical leader Dr. Brian Samford and admissions director Zack Plyler from The Arbor, alongside interventionist Brian Schultz, to map out a path that replaces control with connection and panic with a plan. If you’ve been acting as the banker and the janitor—funding chaos and cleaning up every mess—this conversation shows how to step back into your real role: parent, partner, sibling.
We unpack why codependency mirrors addiction, how enabling is really feelings‑avoidance, and why surrender is as essential for families as it is for those who use. You’ll hear what healthy boundaries look like in practice, how to shift phone calls from progress‑policing to simple human connection, and why long‑term care matters more than a quick 30‑day stay. We also demystify the mental health vs. addiction debate, explaining how substance use disorder itself is a mental illness and why medicating symptoms without changing systems keeps everyone stuck.
Looking for a real way to evaluate treatment? We share what to look for beyond glossy websites: staff presence versus office huddles, alumni working on campus, peers greeting newcomers by name, and support at 2 a.m. when it counts. Most of all, we return to the heart of lasting change: therapeutic alliance, community, and the kind of spiritual growth that shifts identity from shame to belonging. There is hope, and there is a path—Al‑Anon, ACA, CoDA for families; meetings, mentorship, and service for those seeking sobriety. Everyone has a part, and when each person does theirs, recovery becomes possible and sustainable.
If this resonates, follow the show, share it with someone who needs it, and leave a review to help more families find practical hope. Your next right step might be closer than you think.
Join us Every Sunday at 8:00 PM PST and Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday Night at 8:00 PM EST/5:00PST for a FREE family support group. Register at the following link to get the zoom information sent to you: Family Support Meeting
About our sponsor(s):
SoberHelpline.com If you or someone you love is struggling with addiction, you do not have to navigate it alone. Sober Helpline offers confidential, family-focused support designed to help you understand what is happening, reduce chaos, and take clear, healthy next steps—without pressure or judgment. From practical guidance and education to real-world tools for setting boundaries and finding ethical help, Sober Helpline exists to support families as much as the person struggling. Learn more and access support at SoberHelpline.com.
Intervention on Call is on online platform that allows families and support systems to get immediate coaching and direction from a professional interventionist. While a professional intervention can be a powerful experience for change, not every family needs a professionally led intervention. For families who either don't need or can't afford a professional intervention, we can help. Hour sessions are $150.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_06 (00:00):
Welcome to the Party Records Podcast, hosted by
seasoned addictioninterventionist Matt Brown.
This is a podcast for familiesor individuals with loved ones
who are struggling withaddiction or alcoholism.
(00:22):
Perhaps they are reluctant toget the help that they need.
We are here to educate andentertain you while removing the
fear from the conversation.
Stick with us, and we will getyou through it.
Welcome, the original partyrecord, Matt Brown.
SPEAKER_04 (00:48):
Hey guys, welcome to another episode of the Party
Wreckers Podcast.
My name is Matt Brown.
I am a drug and alcoholinterventionist.
For those of you who are tuningin for the first time, um, I've
got a a little bit of adifferent episode today.
Uh, I'm actually on location ata treatment program in Texas uh
with one of my fellow providerson intervention on call, Brian
(01:08):
Schultz.
He's here with me.
And then uh two of theexecutives from the treatment
program here, and I'll introducethem here in just a moment.
Before I jump into this, I wantto just remind everybody that
five nights a week, if you're afamily that has a loved one
that's in active addiction todrugs, alcohol, or other
behaviors, five nights a week,Sunday through Thursday, we do a
(01:32):
free family Zoom call.
Uh you can register for that atinterventiononcall.com.
Uh, there's going to be one ormore of eight interventionists
from around the country that areon these calls every night to
give you guys opportunities toask questions, really dive into
getting some really specificdirection on how to handle um
(01:54):
the situation in your home withyour addicted loved one.
And they're free.
We'd love to have you, we'd loveto be able to help you and and
hopefully take away a little bitof the mystery and and the fear
around that scary word of ofintervention.
Um I want to introduce a coupleof people and I'll I'll you know
(02:14):
I'll talk about you guys forhere for just a second, but I I
would really love for you guysto introduce yourselves and and
give a little bit of background.
Um, to my left here, I've gotBrian Schultz.
And Brian is from Philadelphia,he's one of our providers on
Intervention on Call.
If you've been on one of thenightly Zoom calls, you'll have
met him.
Um Brian, good to have you here.
(02:35):
Why don't you tell us a littlebit about yourself?
SPEAKER_02 (02:37):
Sure.
Thanks for having me.
Um, I was just thinking likewhen was the last time we
actually sat next to each otheras opposed to screen to screen,
but yeah, it's been a while.
Um I am excited forconversations like these because
as we were sort of talking aboutbefore we got started, we have
found a way to speak directly tofamilies without any filter.
(02:58):
And I think that whether you'retalking about interventions or
recovery coaching or whateverthe case may be, a lot of times
I'll get the question of likewho's who's the real client?
Is it the person struggling withaddiction or is it the family?
And I think that, you know, if Ihad to pick one over the other,
I would say that it's thefamily.
Because let's keep in mind thatlike the person who's struggling
is also a part of that familysystem, right?
(03:20):
And so the fact that we havelike unique opportunities like
this to talk to everybodyinvolved and help everyone
understand their role in it.
Um I get really pumped for stufflike this.
So thanks for having me.
SPEAKER_04 (03:33):
Yeah, you bet.
Uh sitting across from me, uhthe table here is Dr.
Brian Sanford.
Brian is the is it the CEO orexecutive chief clinical
officer?
Chief Clinical Officer for theArbor here in Texas, in
Georgetown, Texas.
Brian, would you tell us alittle bit about yourself?
SPEAKER_00 (03:48):
Uh I'm a Capricorn.
I love walks on the beach.
Uh uh, I am a marriage andfamily therapist and licensed
chemical dependency counselor.
And I have been working withfamilies and individuals
suffering from addiction forabout 35 years.
And I absolutely love it.
(04:08):
And the thing that I love themost is working with families.
And I love working with familiesin group settings.
Uh, my favorite thing to do isgo sit down with a family in
their kitchen and drink coffeeand try to be helpful and try to
help them break out of thosedysfunctional patterns that
support that addictive behavior.
SPEAKER_04 (04:30):
So by the end of this, if any families want to
have you come to their house andsit and drink coffee with them,
how do they get into it?
I'm kidding.
I love it.
I absolutely love it.
Thank you.
Thank you for being, you know,and and certainly I've known of
you by reputation for a long,long time.
I've been, you know, workingwith different clients
throughout the years with theArbor.
(04:50):
Um, but this, this, these lastcouple of days have been my
first time to actually get faceto face with you.
And it's it's a pleasure to haveyou.
SPEAKER_00 (04:57):
Yeah, it's so it's so interesting because I've
heard of you this whole time,and uh to finally spend some
time with you is prettyincredible.
SPEAKER_04 (05:05):
Well, thank you.
And our other guest, we actuallyhave three on the podcast today,
is Zach Plyler.
Zach is the uh is what is yourrole here?
SPEAKER_03 (05:12):
Director of business development and over the
admissions team as well.
SPEAKER_04 (05:16):
Well, Zach and I have known each other for years,
and it's it's you know, I feellike we're old friends, and it's
just nice to have a differentkind of conversation with you
here and and uh get your take onjust you know the state of the
industry, working with families.
Um, one of the things we wantedto dive into today, actually,
Zach, why don't we before I dothat, I missed the opportunity.
(05:36):
Why don't you all back up andhave you talk a little bit about
yourself?
SPEAKER_03 (05:40):
So uh like Brian, I do enjoy long walks on the beach
as well.
Um, but you know, kind of theway I got into this is uh I got
I got sober myself like many ofus in my mid-20s, and that was
about 14 years ago or coming upon 14 years.
And uh, you know, it's commonthat we love working with
(06:01):
families.
You know, for me, it's morearound I like being able to
offer perspective and solutionto somebody that maybe has never
had it, right?
Where you feel like you're theonly person going through what
you're going through, and youhear somebody like, oh no, like
that's that's what I wentthrough.
That's what my family wentthrough.
And so um, you know, that that'smy favorite thing.
I I love admissions.
(06:22):
I absolutely love it.
I love whenever I'm on the phonewith somebody and you hear the
tension in their voice and youhear like the fear, and then you
say something and you hear itall release.
And so, you know, I would Iwould do this every day.
I do it for free.
You know, I feel I feel superblessed for for the role that I
have within the organization.
SPEAKER_04 (06:39):
Well, I'll talk to the owners and let them know
they're paying you too muchmoney because I'm willing to do
it for free.
Yeah.
If I won the lottery, I just sitthere and and take it take calls
and help people all day.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, and and the interestingthing is, and I'm sure a lot of
the families listening have havehad this experience.
You know, there's a hugedifference in talking with
somebody when you call atreatment program, talking with
(07:00):
somebody who's there to checkthe boxes.
Like, what kind of insurance doyou have?
You know, and and and and reallyjust kind of go through this
script that they have versustalking to somebody who who
actually is invested in helpingtheir family.
And I'm not saying that thepeople that that check the boxes
don't have a heart to help, butthere's a big difference.
(07:20):
And and there's there's aninvestment every time you get on
a phone call with a family.
I know for us, for for me andBrian, I'm sure it's the same
way for you.
Like when we get on a phone callwith a family or when we get on
one of these Zoom calls for me,I I get excited, like you were
talking about.
Sitting in somebody's livingroom, having a cup of coffee
(07:41):
with them, and you know, let'ssolve a problem here today.
And um I think that there's, youknow, there's these call centers
around the country where, youknow, they're getting 30,000
phone calls a month.
And it's like, how can you takecare of families that way?
Because yeah, you might be ableto get their loved one into
treatment, but are you takingcare of the people that are
(08:02):
hurting along the way?
And, you know, we're gonna divea little bit into that today in
terms of family work and and howwe see families show up, how we
we help families.
And I hope that if you're afamily member of an addicted
loved one that's listeningtoday, that you really listen in
for what we see as peopleworking on the front lines with
(08:25):
families.
Hopefully, some of this willresonate with you.
Hopefully, we're not stepping onyour toes too hard today,
because I I, at least, you know,from my point of view, I think
there's some things thatfamilies need to hear in terms
of how they can better supportthe process.
Not only will it create a morestable environment for their
loved one to recover in, butalso for them to find some peace
(08:48):
and some freedom in this processas well.
SPEAKER_02 (08:52):
Um I'm interested in what you just touched on.
I'm interested in hearing Briansort of do the thing where he
lovingly challenges families.
Because so Brian recently showedup to an intervention on call
Family Sports Zoom.
And and Zach, you highlightedthis too.
One thing that he does reallywell is I can see why you may
think that, but let me tell youhow it really is, which is like
(09:14):
not a not an easy line to walk.
Because the thing is, is like Iactually it's interesting this
is coming up now because I I'mprepping for an intervention
this weekend, and the mom of theclient was like, you know, I
just feel bad for you.
Like my son's gonna be the mostdifficult case that you've ever
heard of.
I hear that all the time.
Right.
And I was like, first off, whenwe have some more downtime and
things aren't so heavy, likeI'll tell you some funny stories
that will probably change thatperception in your mind.
(09:36):
But the reality is like, it'snot the addicted individual
that's the challenge.
Like, I know when I walk into anintervention, there are some
things that might happen that Imight not exactly know how
they're gonna go down, but Iknow how that person's gonna
present.
He's gonna be in a ton of pain,he's gonna throw it around with
everybody in the room, he'sgonna be irrational, might be
manic, you know, and andvolatile, but like I know what
(09:58):
that looks like, how to preparefor it, control the
controllables, and let otherprofessionals step in where they
need to.
The challenging part is tryingto get the family to get out of
the mindset that they've been infor the past several years.
And it's like a it's a realtalent of lovingly walking back
some of the things that they areso sure of, right?
(10:20):
Right and getting them to makechanges.
SPEAKER_03 (10:22):
Yeah, there's a lot of uh there's a lot of
conditioning, right?
Like um I think about my ownstory, and there would be times
whenever I would call my momjust just to like check in or
say something, and she wouldanswer the phone, she'd be like,
What happened?
SPEAKER_05 (10:37):
Hello?
SPEAKER_04 (10:39):
Did you hear that when you would say?
SPEAKER_03 (10:42):
And uh, and you know, you get so caught in that
system of feeling like somebodyhas to, like they have to save
you, right?
And and I look at it now, it'slike I didn't do anything for
myself.
I mean, my mom once drove allthe way from Austin to Denton
because I hadn't answered myphone in like 18 hours, right?
She climbed through my window, Iwas passed out, and she climbed
through the window of myapartment.
(11:02):
And, you know, the darkness ofthat is that, you know, she was
uh convinced that I was gonnadie, you know, and and she says
that she'd already like given meup to God.
And uh, but she was convincedthat the reason I wasn't
answering was because I wasdead.
And and she drove four hours andclimbed through a window at you
know, 60 years old.
Um, and I just had her in thatcycle.
I think about too.
(11:23):
Uh, one time I went to treatmentand I get in there, and I'm I'm
normally a pretty pleasant guy,you know, to most people, uh,
but I had like, you know, thismean streak to me.
But the people, whenever I wasgetting done with intake, they
were like, your mom was soworried about like whatever you
were gonna do here.
And I'm like, I'm not apsychopath, you know?
Um, but it's just because that'sthat's what I do is if I if I
wanted something from them andthey wouldn't give it, I would
(11:46):
just get super mean, right?
And I would get super angry orrational.
Um, and so that's how they wouldtry and prep people about me is
like just somebody that'stotally unpredictable.
SPEAKER_02 (11:55):
So much of when we're talking about the proper
way to interact with somebodywho's an active addiction, and
maybe this is just, you know,because I'm a male, right?
And you're a male, right?
But I see that it oftentimeswill come from mom.
It's like when we're talkingabout the approach, the feedback
that I always get from mom islike, yeah, but if we do it like
that, this is how he's going torespond.
(12:16):
And it's like, okay, well, weneed to get you out of the
mindset that the appropriatething to do is based on how your
loved one is going to react toit, right?
SPEAKER_04 (12:26):
We have a specific playbook that we work from.
We don't realize we're doing it,but the playbook is pretty much
universal for everybody inaddiction.
And it's just that the familyhasn't picked up on the playbook
yet.
And and I tell families this allthe time, but you know, anytime
you're doing an intervention,whenever somebody's come into
treatment, there's two peoplethat have to get fired.
(12:47):
And that's the banker and thejanitor.
SPEAKER_05 (12:49):
That's right.
SPEAKER_04 (12:49):
Like, we gotta get those people off the board.
The minute you step out of thoseroles and step back into your
natural role as a wife, ahusband, a mom, a dad, this will
get a lot easier.
Um, what what are some of themost oh yeah, go ahead.
SPEAKER_00 (13:04):
You know, when I I I used to do interventions, and
and I'll always say this is thewhen you go in to do an
intervention, you're actuallydoing an intervention with the
family.
The clients, we we know how towork with individuals that have
addiction issues.
The challenge is to get thefamily on board with what it's
gonna take.
And really, the big picture tooversimplify what it's gonna
(13:28):
take is for the family to getout of the way and let the
individual start to takeresponsibility for their life.
That's the hard part.
And when I do family program,the thing that I emphasize with
families is stop neglectingyourselves and stop neglecting
other family members.
Your loved one that has theaddiction issue has people, and
(13:50):
those people will help yourloved one.
You don't need to do it anymore.
And so it's really difficult forfamilies to back out.
SPEAKER_04 (14:03):
The way uh the way I've seen it and the way I I
will sometimes explain it tofamilies is that you know,
codependency and addiction arejust two sides of the same coin.
And the person who's in activeaddiction uses substances to try
to avoid their feelings.
And the codependent does exactlythe same thing for exactly the
same reason.
(14:23):
If I don't enable this person,I'm gonna feel something that I
don't want to feel, whether it'sguilt, whether it's, you know, I
I don't want to be a bad spouseor a bad dad or a bad mom.
I'm I'm enabling to avoid thefeelings that I'm I'm gonna feel
if I don't do this.
And the genesis of a lot ofthose feelings comes from the
same place.
(14:44):
I'm not good enough.
You know, I'm I'm I'm a peoplepleaser, I'm a perfectionist on
a lot of those early childhoodprogrammings that that we get.
Um, what for you as as aclinical a clinician, and you
know, I don't think I'm not aclinician, I don't I don't think
either of you are, but as aclinician, as you work with
families, what is the biggestand or most common thread that
(15:07):
runs through families that youfeel like?
I mean, you talked about youknow them taking care of
themselves, but from abehavioral standpoint, something
that families listening canreally identify maybe in their
own behavior, what are youseeing that can be the biggest
impediment of them maybe gettingin their own way or getting in
the way of the recovery of theirloved one?
SPEAKER_00 (15:27):
It is the the greatest challenge is it's
really surrender.
It's just like for the addict,they have to surrender to this
idea that they're powerless.
And it's the same concept forthe family, is they're power,
they're truly powerless overthis addiction.
They've tried everything thatthey can imagine to control it,
and nothing has worked.
(15:49):
And so for families to begin thejourney of healing within
themselves, they have to do thesame thing that the addict has
to do.
They have to surrender to thisidea that I can't control this.
What I can do is I can starttaking better care of myself and
start setting better emotional,physical, financial boundaries
(16:10):
and stop neglecting.
So that's it's it's the same forthe addict as for the family.
It's the concept of surrender.
And families, it's you know,some families get there quicker
than others.
Some families will do this cycleindefinitely, they'll never
surrender.
(16:31):
And ultimately what happens isthe primary objective of the
addiction, the addiction outsideof the individual and outside of
the family, the ultimate goal ofthe addiction is to kill the
host and everybody in closeproximity.
And when families andindividuals don't get in
recovery, that's exactly whathappens, is it destroys
(16:52):
families.
SPEAKER_04 (16:53):
You know, I've never heard anybody describe it that
way in terms of it being almostparasitic.
SPEAKER_00 (16:58):
Right.
SPEAKER_04 (16:59):
Where the the intention is to kill the host.
That's right.
SPEAKER_02 (17:03):
Right and great metaphor.
Before the surrender happens,the families who are stuck and
can't seem to surrender, likewhat does how what type of
behavior does that manifestinto?
Like loved one comes totreatment, family is struggling
with surrendering to theprocess.
What does that look like?
SPEAKER_00 (17:17):
Oh, it's it's so entertaining.
Because they'll call every day.
Yeah.
Text, call, what are they doing?
Hey, listen, I have this idea,you should try this.
And you know, where are theygonna go?
Yeah, I can't stop.
Uh, I don't want to stop thetracking on the phone because
what if something happens?
(17:38):
Is they can't disengage.
And that is expressed in avariety of ways.
I have a family right now thatI'm working with, and what I've
convinced them to do is to callme before they try to engage
back into the recovery processwith their loved one.
Because I can block that andsay, why don't you go for a
(18:00):
walk?
Your individual has people thatare supporting his or her
recovery.
Your your loved one doesn't needyou for this.
They need you to take care ofyourself, be a parent.
When you have a phone call, talkabout the the current movie that
you saw, or talk about theweather.
(18:22):
Get out of the recovery businesswith your loved one.
SPEAKER_02 (18:25):
That was the best part of the correspondence that
I had with my family when I wasin treatment, was when we would
have our you know, it startedoff as weekly phone calls.
And specifically, probablybecause I was somebody who went
to treatment throughintervention, I was so slow to
my own process of surrender thatlike when we would get on those
(18:48):
calls, I would be so full ofanxiety about expecting them to
check in on me and my progress,and like, hey, have you called
yourself an addict yet in ameeting?
Like, hey, have you are youworking the steps?
Do you have a sponsor?
And uh and I wasn't there for areally long time.
Really, like the internalmotivation for me didn't even
begin to flip on until thesecond month of treatment.
(19:10):
And because they were engaged ina solid family program, our
conversations weren't going thatway.
It was Brian's doing his thing,hey, here's what your sister's
up to this week.
Right, you know, like dad's gonewith my boyfriend.
I have normal conversations,which then made it safe to
eventually re-engage at my ownwhen I felt comfortable.
Then it's like, hey, I had thiskind of profound sort of day
(19:34):
yesterday, or I gained someinsight into myself in a way
that because they weren'twaiting with pins and needles on
baited breath, like, did you getit yet?
Did you get it yet?
Did you get it yet?
SPEAKER_03 (19:44):
You know, I had an experience early on.
Uh I was probably like six orseven months sober.
And um, my my parents never dida lot of like what what meetings
are you going to or anythinglike that.
But uh um anybody in recovery iswill know, like, especially in
those early days, sometimesthere's just this day where the
thought of alcohol is in yourmind, right?
It's not like you're sittingthere being like, Oh, I'm gonna
(20:06):
drink today.
I really want to drink.
And uh, I was over at my mom'shouse and I'm sitting there and
I just said, you know, I've hada few thoughts in drinking
today.
Uh, and I just saw like it pourover her face.
And it just kind of hit me onlike to me, that was like
normal, right?
Like I knew I wasn't gonnadrink.
I was just like, I'm having oneof these days.
I talked to my sponsor about it,but to her, it was like
(20:29):
terrifying.
And so that's like that was oneexperience that I had where I
was just like, okay, likethere's certain things that I
talk to some to people inrecovery about, and there's
certain things, you know, that Ijust let go uh with my with my
family.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (20:45):
And with my and with my dad, um I didn't really talk
about, he had really goodboundaries.
And uh, we did not talk about myrecovery until I was about 20
years sober.
unknown (20:58):
Wow.
SPEAKER_00 (20:58):
And uh we would talk about normal things, sports,
movies, how other familiesmembers are doing.
And when I was about 20 yearssober, I started sharing some of
the details with him about myrecovery.
And and it really uh wasshocking to him and surprising
(21:18):
some of the things that I toldhim.
And I really needed the time andI needed to work through those
things so I could share thosethings from a perspective of
experience, strength, and hope.
Because if you know, uh a lot ofpeople will just go and dump
with their families, and that'snot fair, that's exactly what
you're talking about becausethey don't know what to do with
(21:40):
it.
And a lot of times there's anulterior motive when we're doing
that.
Yeah, we've got some angle.
Yeah, and if you give me$20,never happen again.
SPEAKER_04 (21:49):
I remember a conversation I had with my dad
where you know I had been soberfor 90 days.
I had been incommunicado withthem for a couple of years at
this point.
It was post-intervention for me.
I was angry, I didn't speak tothem, I hadn't gotten sober yet,
and I ended up living in my car.
And I ended up, you know, as aresult of the pain that life
(22:13):
naturally brought my way, Iended up getting motivated to
get sober or started going tomeetings, met a woman who owned
a treatment center.
She gave me a job at 30 DaysSober.
I didn't tell my family any ofthis until I had 90 days sober
because I didn't want to gettheir hopes up.
And I was also really ashamed.
Like I didn't want to give themthe satisfaction of saying, you
know, you guys were right.
(22:33):
I needed help.
But by the time I had 90 dayssober, I'm sitting with my dad,
and I said, you know, I justwant you to know that I've I've
been going to AA and I'm sobernow.
And he's like, wait a minute.
You're an alcoholic?
And it was almost like I told mydad I was a serial killer.
Right.
You know, like there was athere's a stigma.
SPEAKER_02 (22:53):
I don't understand what you're saying.
SPEAKER_04 (22:54):
Like, do you remember when I was living in
your home and you told me thateither I had to go to treatment
or I had to to leave?
He's like, Yeah, I rememberthat.
I didn't think you were analcoholic, though.
And and and it and I think somany times w and I think that
there's still it's it's not thestigma's not as strong as it
used to be.
But I think there's thistendency with families, and I
don't know if you guys areseeing it on your end, but when
(23:17):
I'm on the phone with a family,a lot of them are wanting to
make it about a mental healthproblem.
SPEAKER_03 (23:21):
Yes.
SPEAKER_04 (23:21):
Well, he's got ADHD, or they've got bipolar, or
they're depressed, or they'reanxious.
And if we could just treat that,yeah, this this this addiction
thing, this this this, you know,the meth use or the you know,
the marijuana smoking orwhatever, it'll it'll take care
of itself.
Yeah.
And I've always, you know, anduntil recently, I wonder like
why why is that?
Why is do they want to make it amental health issue?
(23:44):
And I think number one is is thestigma that surrounds addiction.
But I also think that if it's amental health issue, a doctor's
gonna take care of it and Idon't have to change as a family
member.
SPEAKER_05 (23:54):
Right.
SPEAKER_04 (23:55):
But if it's addiction, I might be a part of
this and I don't want to have tohave any any skin in the game
here.
SPEAKER_00 (24:01):
That's right.
And it, you know, if it's amental health problem, there's a
pill, you just give them a pilland everything's okay.
SPEAKER_05 (24:06):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (24:07):
And I I talk a lot about this in family program, is
you know, maybe it's a mentalillness problem.
And I tell families they're allmentally ill.
Yeah.
There's nobody here in treatmentthat's not mentally ill.
And the substance use disorderin and of itself is a mental
illness.
And so you're exactly right.
And there's a lot of effortthat's gonna have to be put in
(24:29):
place for recovery to happen onbehalf of the family and the
individual.
And a pill's not gonna fix it.
SPEAKER_03 (24:35):
Well, you know, the truth is that um addiction is
baffling, right?
Like you look at it from anoutside perspective, and it's
somebody that you know themsince they were since they were
little, or you know, you knowthem on a very real level.
And I think that it is you seethem straying so far away from
like what you know them to be orwhat they know themselves to be,
(24:58):
that my observation has alwaysbeen like people want to figure
out a reason.
Like, there's no way that youknow, Brian would be this way,
or Zach would be this way.
It has to be that this is goingon, and you know, to the point
where like sometimes peoplethink their their children are
like, you know, schizophrenic orstuff like that.
And it's like almost like theywould prefer if we would confirm
(25:19):
that for them.
And I'm like, hey, like ifsomebody's like an addict, like
there's a solution and they canget over that and have a really
good life, you know.
Some of these other thingsyou're talking about are very
chronic and problematic issues,you know?
And it's just like there's thestigma, stigma of it, but then
there's also like you just wanta reason.
Like, why, why is he or why isshe the way that they are?
(25:41):
Yeah, and uh yeah, I mean, wethink we were talking about last
night at dinner.
That's one of the common mostcommon things we see on the
phones is like it has to bethis.
Do you treat this?
And you know, you hear andyou're like, that's just there's
somebody with substancedisorder, you know?
SPEAKER_00 (25:56):
And in referring back to what you said earlier,
is you were talking about thecase where there was this sense
of uniqueness.
And I get a lot of families,well, you don't you don't know
my son or you don't know mydaughter.
And uh, and sometimes I saythis, I I try to be sensitive to
who I'm talking to, butsometimes I say this is I've
(26:16):
seen a thousand of your sons.
SPEAKER_01 (26:18):
I use that line too.
Which is you gotta be carefulabout it.
SPEAKER_02 (26:25):
Right.
I don't usually follow it upwith like, look, yes, your son
is a unique person, and yes, hedid he is an individual.
And I don't mean to say thathe's just some like sort of
statistic, but the experiencethat you're having with him and
what's going on with himinternally is exactly like every
other person that I ever speakto in this capacity.
And I think that like certainlyall the things that we touched
(26:48):
on around like why it's sodifficult to move them away from
oh, this is a baseline mentalhealth issue, all of that's
true.
And I think the other thing isthat there's a fundamental lack
of understanding about howaddiction affects someone in the
moments when they're notcurrently under the influence of
drugs, right?
(27:08):
Like I was developing myself tothe point where I only utilized
cocaine, amphetamines,marijuana, alcohol as solutions
to regulate my, you know,behaviors, thoughts, feelings.
And so every time I wasn't onthat, I presented as crazy.
You know what I mean?
And they're like, well, he'she's nuts, right?
(27:30):
Well, yeah, but that doesn'tmean that this isn't a direct
result of my addiction simplybecause I'm not currently high
right now, right?
SPEAKER_00 (27:40):
They're doing all sorts of things.
And the the bottom line is isthat the uh compulsive use of
substances is justself-medication.
You're medicating emotionaldysregulation, you're medicating
dysfunctional thinking.
It's it's all the substance useis a just a form of medicating.
(28:02):
And you have to address theissues that are driving that.
I mean, that's and that's whatwe all have to do as part of our
recovery journey is to addressthat those thoughts that I have
that I'm a terrible person, I'mnever gonna amount to anything,
that depression, that guilt,that shame.
Yeah, those are the commonthings that most of us
experience, and you know, thatwe're not unique.
(28:26):
There's many, many people thathave the same experiences, and
there is a solution.
And the solution's not easy, butthere is a solution.
SPEAKER_04 (28:36):
So many families want to get caught up in the
story.
They want to get caught up inthe details, and that's why it's
different for my kid or myhusband or my wife, because the
details are so specific and sounique.
And and when we can get past thedetails, the four of us sitting
here, the details of of thestories that led to our
addictions are probably very,very different from one another.
(28:57):
But all of us know what it'slike to feel sad and lonely and
scared and angry and justdesperate.
Yeah.
And and in in those moments, thedetails don't matter.
SPEAKER_05 (29:11):
Right.
SPEAKER_04 (29:12):
Because you know how I feel.
And that's what matters.
And so when you get a loved oneinto a treatment program and you
want to dive deep into thestory, and you want to talk to
the, you know, a guy like Zachwhen or or a guy like Brian when
you're, you know, talking aboutgetting somebody into treatment
or or doing an intervention, wewant to hear the story because
it will help us better connectwith your loved one to be able
(29:33):
to help them understand, hey,but I know how you feel.
And and and that's the criticalthing because I remember in that
first meeting that I ever wentto, the amount of shame that I
felt and and that, you know,when I, for the very first time
in my life, I said, My name'sMatt, and I'm an alcoholic.
And I just started to cry forfor what I could see was no
(29:54):
reason.
Like, why am I crying right now?
And and to to think that when IPicked my head up and I looked
around, you know, the the room.
I thought I was just gonna seedisgusted looks on everybody's
face.
And that's not what I saw.
I saw people who understood me.
And and they they were there wascompassion and there was
(30:15):
understanding and there was justthis sense of of empathy.
And and that's what I needed inthat moment.
I didn't need somebody to tellme, okay, but here's how you fix
this.
When they put their arms aroundme and they said, Hey man, I'm
glad you're here.
SPEAKER_00 (30:30):
Yeah, it's gonna be okay.
SPEAKER_04 (30:31):
I hope you'll come back tomorrow.
unknown (30:32):
Right.
SPEAKER_04 (30:33):
Like that for me, I don't remember anything that
anybody said in that meeting,but I remember they gave me a
hug, they told me I was gladthey were that I they were glad
I was there, and they asked meto come back.
And and that's all I needed inthat moment.
And I think for so many of us,we just need to feel like we
belong somewhere where we're notburning it down.
(30:53):
And I'm oversimplifying this,and I'd love to hear your guys'
feedback on this, but I think agood treatment center really has
two jobs to create anenvironment where somebody can
have a spiritual experience andto create a member of a
lifetime, a lifelong recoveryprocess, whether it's a you know
(31:14):
AA, NA, you know, whateverfellowship you're gonna belong
to.
But if you can accomplish thosetwo things while somebody's in
your care, you're setting themup for success down the line.
Now, spiritual experience, in myestimation, is not a religious
experience, it's an experiencethat changes the way I see
myself and the way that I fitinto the world.
SPEAKER_00 (31:32):
And that you see the world and you see other people
in it.
Yeah.
Right.
SPEAKER_04 (31:36):
What are your thoughts on like as you guys
bring people into your program,if you could just boil it down
to just its barest essence, whatare you hoping will happen for
that person?
SPEAKER_00 (31:48):
Well, there I do this whole group, it's the
circle of pain.
It's what's going on with thisindividual is they have
accumulated so much pain intheir life that they're
desperately trying to cover itup with something.
And a big part of treatment isto start identifying what those
sources of pain are.
(32:09):
Because if you don't identifythose and start working to
relieve some of that, theindividual will not stay sober
because they're in too muchpain.
And so treatment that's a bigpart, is is to start digging
into that and and start thejourney.
Because for most people, it's along journey to really address
all that internal pain thatwe're carrying.
(32:31):
And the to reference thespirituality piece is, you know,
they may or may not have aspiritual experience while
they're in treatment, but to setthe stage for that to happen,
because I ultimately believethat, and and I can apply this
to my own recovery, is you know,I did a lot of therapy and I did
(32:53):
a lot of counseling, and all ofthose things helped.
But the thing that helped me themost was my connection with a
higher power, the spiritualityaspect.
That's what really helped moveme into a whole different realm
in life.
Now, I had that when I was 15years sober.
(33:14):
So some people have it week twoin treatment.
It happens when it happens.
And what we try to do here is toset the stage for that.
And the other big component iswhat you referenced also, is to
get them to begin to assimilateinto a recovery lifestyle,
recovery process.
Because for me personally, I'mstill in that.
(33:38):
And people that, if you talk topeople that have long-term
sobriety, is that's what they'lltell you is they're consistent
with their recovery program.
And we're trying to helpindividuals start to create
their recovery program thatthey're gonna participate in the
rest of their lives that addsignificant meaning to their
life.
You know, a lot of people whenthey start out, they think, oh
(34:00):
my God, am I to have am I gonnahave to go to those meetings for
the rest of my life?
Am I gonna have to do all this?
But at some point it turns intoI love going to meetings.
I get to go to those meetings, Ilove working with people that
are trying to get sober.
I absolutely love it.
And it enriches my life, andhopefully I'm able to help other
(34:20):
people.
SPEAKER_02 (34:21):
Which is why when we talk about the need for
long-term care, I think thatmight help families better
conceptualize why that is.
Is how am I supposed to knowthat it ends up like that until
I've done it long enough to seethe fruits of my labor?
You know what I mean?
Because for a very long time itwas I have to go to a meeting, I
(34:42):
have to call my sponsor, I haveto.
And it wasn't until I actuallyexperienced the real profound
relief from doing that over andover and over again, and began
to heal the inner parts of methat I didn't even know were
broken until going through thatprocess process, and that never
stops, right?
Exactly.
And then, so like if you'retrying to you always say this,
(35:05):
it's like, how do you explainsalt to somebody who's never
tasted salt?
And I think that's like that,that to me, I see as the biggest
challenge for you guys is toconvey how that happens to
somebody who has neverexperienced that.
SPEAKER_00 (35:19):
Well, you know, a lot of people in parents,
families, clients, they comehere and you hear this, I want
to do 30 days.
And what that statement says tome is you don't understand what
this is at all.
Right.
SPEAKER_04 (35:32):
I want to stay in control, right?
Is really what they're saying.
SPEAKER_00 (35:35):
It's it's because if you truly, this is a chronic,
it's it's taking a person alifetime to develop it.
And it's gonna take a longperiod of time to just stabilize
the person.
And then they're gonna have tocontinue in some support
mechanism probably the rest oftheir life.
SPEAKER_02 (35:53):
And they don't if that statement alone is
recognizing that the motivationof going to treatment is to get
to a place where I can abstainfrom using drugs, right?
I think that if I do a bareminimum of 30 days, I'll be in a
place where I can abstain fromusing drugs, but it ignores the
idea of actually if you really,really dig in and engage in this
(36:15):
process, you can end up a wayhappier, healthier,
well-adjusted person than youwere before you needed the drugs
to solve that problem for you.
SPEAKER_03 (36:26):
Right.
Yeah, your brain can't evenreally comprehend talk therapy
in the first 30 days, right?
With everything that is goingthrough, especially for an
alcoholic.
And, you know, the thing that Iam uh that I'm biggest on is
about connection, you know, andand Brian is very educated, but
one thing that I've always likedabout a style is it's very
common sense andsolution-oriented, right?
(36:47):
And and on the admissions side,sometimes you'll get people and
they are just very focused onthe different acronyms of
therapy that can be provided,right?
Like the education of everybody.
And I read something uh a coupleyears ago.
And in the do you guys know whatthe number one factor in a
successful like therapyrelationship is between a
(37:08):
clinician and a client?
Yeah, trust and employee,therapeutic alliance,
therapeutic alliance, right?
More than more than any othertype of therapy or anything like
that.
If you just have somebody thatyou connect with, you're it's
gonna be way more successfulthan any than anything else.
That's the number one barometerof success with a therapist.
And and you know, we're veryintentional here around just the
(37:31):
way that we build community, youknow, and and I've always liked
that um people we get the callsall the time, like, how much is
it for me to buy my own room?
And it's just like, hey, thereis no cost for that.
Like, we don't do that, youknow, and and part of that is
because of isolation, right?
Like uh a couple of years agowhen they said went to treatment
and he bought like an entirefloor, right?
(37:53):
And you know, I rememberthinking, I'm like, man, like
that's that's not gonna help himget well, you know, because very
much uh addiction wants toisolate you, wants to separate
you.
And you know, we don't letpeople buy entitlement.
And the things that we do forfor grown for grown adults,
right, to to just do thingstogether outside, right?
(38:13):
Play basketball, go down to theriver, play disc golf, just have
a conversation.
Um, that builds some really deeprelationships.
And, you know, anybody who's inlong-term recovery knows that uh
you have to have your your yourpeople, right?
Like if you have a therapistthat's just gonna knock on their
door and they they put you backtogether and then you leave and
(38:34):
you fall apart again.
That's not that's never gonnawork.
And so, you know, like yes, likewe we treat our clients and we
do everything, but we also uhtry and get them back to each
other a lot, too, because thereis a time whenever this runs out
and you have to have that systemif it's going to be long term.
SPEAKER_00 (38:51):
Well, and I I want to comment on something Zach
said.
It's it's you know, we talk alot about uh what is the
opposite end of the continuumfrom addiction?
It's connection.
People that can connect in ahealthy way don't have to use
alcohol and drugs to navigatelife.
And don't want to.
And don't want to.
Yeah.
Because they they they'refulfilled with the connection.
(39:14):
And Matt, you talked about inthe beginning of this that you
didn't remember anything thatwas said in treatment.
I don't either.
I don't remember anything, Idon't remember any counseling
groups, nothing.
What I do remember is thatcounselor that I had, I couldn't
get over the fact that this guyhe didn't know me, but he cared
about me.
And that's what meant the worldto me.
(39:35):
Yeah.
And it came from a place thatwas non-judgmental.
He just wanted to help me.
And that's the reason I decidedto do what I do now, is because
of that guy.
And it's so it's about theconnection, it's about loving
the person that's in front ofyou.
unknown (39:51):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (39:52):
Whenever I'm touring a treatment program, and and I
hope the families listening, youknow, if you ever get a chance
to go and see the treatmentcenter that you're looking at
before your loved one goesthere, the one thing that I look
for is not, you know, how many,you know, diplomas the the
clinical staff have on the wallor you know, when when we walk
by the tech office, are therepeople in there?
(40:13):
Is it full of people or are theyout with clients?
And and those are the peoplethat your clients are gonna
interact with more than anyother person on that staff.
And so if the the tech office,the recovery tech office, the
support staff office is full ofpeople, they're not out there
with the clients.
And and you know, I'm alwayslooking for things like that.
(40:36):
And so those are the people thatyour loved ones are gonna
connect with more than anybodyelse at that treatment program.
And if they're all hanging outwith each other in the tech
office, they're not connectingwith the clients.
And, you know, when they drivethem to meetings, when they're
having meals, like when they'redoing just the the disc golf and
they're out there doing things,you know, playing basketball.
(40:57):
Are these people involved withthem?
Are they connecting with them,or are they just waiting until
they got to put them in the vanand take them to a meeting?
You know, it's there there arelittle things like that along
the way that can really make orbreak, I think, a client's
treatment.
Because at two o'clock in themorning when all the clinical
staff has gone home and somebodywants to walk out of treatment
because they're they're thirsty,who's gonna be there to talk to
(41:19):
them?
SPEAKER_02 (41:19):
Yeah, that's a really it's not gonna be a
clinician.
That's a really interesting areaof exploration is like, what are
the things that you would onlyknow to look for in a treatment
center having only after you'vegone through an experience?
That's a really good one.
I always look for uh I take alook at the text and I want to
(41:40):
know how many of them are uh howmany alumni are working in the
program because now have haveprogressed to the fact where
they wanted to stick aroundbecause they had the experience
of, you know what, I canrecognize like the people here
were operating in a meaningfulway where they were generally
invested in my wellness and theywanted to stick around and get a
job.
Like if you got a program, yougot a bunch of alumni who are
(42:02):
you know stable and sober andlong term and working for your
program.
That's one of the things thatlike you don't see that listed
on a website, you know what Imean.
You can't list that liketrauma-informed care or
individualized care, but there'scertain things that you pick up
on only having after having hadthe experience of the city.
SPEAKER_03 (42:18):
Well, then do you see the the clients doing as
well, right?
Like um I can always tell likeif we have like a younger group
or a more senior group in thecommunity by whenever I'm
touring a family, how manypeople like want to come up and
introduce themselves, right?
Because like the newer people,they're still kind of trapped in
their self and they're like, youknow, not not really thinking
(42:40):
about that.
But the people who have who havelike had an experience, they're
coming up and they're like, hey,what's your name?
Are you gonna get anything aboutcoming here?
And uh about a year ago, we hadsomebody that decided to come
here, and and the feedback onthe decision was he's like, you
know, I toured a couple otherplaces, and this was like the
first place where everybodywasn't in their own world.
Like people came up and actuallywanted to know my name.
(43:00):
And you know, whenever he wasleaving, they're like, All
right, we'll see you Monday.
Uh you know, and it's so youknow, it's not always like that,
right?
Um, people are in their ownprocess, but you know, I uh I
tell people every time I'mtalking to them on the phone or
my team, we always tell them,like, hey, no matter what you
choose, if you're in this area,like go look at every place.
Everybody has a good website,everybody's website says all the
(43:22):
things that it needs to say, butget an actual feel for the
people that work there becauseyou know the staff is is what is
what makes it essentially.
SPEAKER_04 (43:31):
I was touring a treatment program down in Utah
one time, and I was there andthey they'd asked me to to share
my story at the the eveningmeeting.
And so I thought, oh yeah, I'dlove to.
So before I go in there, the theevening tech comes up to me, she
pulls me aside and she says,Hey, I just need to talk to you
for a minute.
I said, Sure, what's going on?
She's like, when you get upthere, I need you to understand
(43:54):
something.
We don't tell war stories here.
Like, this is this is how I Ineed you to do this.
And and you know, we don't warstory, we don't tell, we don't,
we don't, you know, umembellish, you know, we don't we
don't want to make addictionsound attractive here.
So I want you to to explain tothem what it was like for you,
but I really need for you tomake sure you're talking about
how it got better for you andwhat you're doing now to
(44:15):
maintain your recovery.
And I was just Cheyenne, ifyou're if you ever hear this, I
just want you to know I rememberyour name, I remember that
conversation.
Like she lined me out and shewas protecting those clients.
Yeah.
And and I just had so muchrespect for her when she did
that because of just theresponsibility that she felt for
(44:36):
making sure that they left thatmeeting in a better place than
when they walked in.
And and she was just fearless inthe way, like she didn't know
me, she didn't know who I wasand didn't care.
Like, those are my people.
I'm I'm taking care of mypeople.
SPEAKER_01 (44:49):
Yeah, that's cool.
SPEAKER_04 (44:50):
Yeah.
That's really cool.
Well, as we're wrapping up heretoday, guys, like if there's one
message that you feel like youhaven't gotten across to
families today, what what do youwant families to take away from
the conversation they've been apart of listening to us have
today?
SPEAKER_00 (45:06):
The the the thing that and this is what I start
out with when I do familyprogram is I tell there is
people get sober and stay soberall the time.
There is a solution to this.
And so I want to just relay thathope that in families heal,
(45:29):
clients heal, and you can andthey have a completely different
life.
And so there is a lot of hope inthis.
You know, the early part's gonnabe rough, and it's gonna require
a lot of effort and a lot ofwork and tears and etc.
But it does get a lot better ifeverybody involved will do their
part.
(45:49):
And and I also tell clients thisis uh, you know, a lot of times
clients hear statistics.
There'll be a counselor,somebody comes in the room and
says, only a certain percentageof y'all are gonna stay sober,
which I absolutely hate whenpeople do that.
And what I do is I walk into aroom full of clients and I say,
everybody in this room can staysober if they're willing to do
(46:14):
the work that's required.
It's not rocket science, thereis a solution.
SPEAKER_03 (46:19):
So Brian, Zach, any last words?
Um I love what I love what Briansaid, you know.
Um the only thing that that Iwould say is that uh, like, yes,
we believe very much thataddiction is a disease, right?
And uh a trap is believing thatsomebody always has to be sick
(46:40):
and treating them like they'realways gonna be sick, because if
you do that, then they can nevertruly get well.
And so um, you know, that'sthat's a big part.
Even with my friends that havestruggled with addiction,
whenever they try and get likethe pity of like, oh, I'm an
addict, I'm sick.
I'm like, hey, bud, like there'sa solution to this, and you're
making a decision here, youknow.
(47:01):
And so that's the only thing Isee come up with families is
like they just feel like theyhave to they that so and so's
sick, and therefore, like theyhave to help them and always
help them, and it's like letthem find their way.
I'm gonna I'm gonna take that.
SPEAKER_02 (47:15):
Um, I would say that um if you're a family member who
has a loved one who struggleswith addiction, the bad news is
you can't fix them, and the goodnews is you can't fix them,
meaning that yeah, you don'thave to.
It's not your job, right?
And your role is to allow themto be face to face with the
(47:37):
appropriate resources toutilize, not interrupt the
process and allow them to havethe experience that they they
need to have.
And if you really boil it, likethat's freeing.
This is not your job to handle.
And if you try to insertyourself in the process more
than is appropriate, the onlything that you can do is
(47:58):
sabotage it.
The only thing that you can dois to halt their progress.
So, good news, you don't have todo that anymore.
You get to go work on yourselfand um be mom and dad, be
sister, be brother, you know.
You don't have to be the janitorand the counselor, the probation
officer.
God, what a fruit there's somuch freedom in that.
(48:20):
Once you realize that, like,it's not only are you not
supposed to, you can't.
So stop trying.
SPEAKER_04 (48:27):
And if you're a family member listening to this
and you're wondering, like,okay, so how do I do that?
I agree with everything thatthat guy just said.
Well, what how do I do it?
The best way to support yourloved one in recovery is to get
into recovery yourself.
Get into Al-Anon, get intoDakota, adult adult children of
alcoholics and dysfunctionalfamilies.
Uh there's a number of differentrecovery groups, specifically
(48:50):
for loved ones of alcoholics andaddicts, or if you grew up in a
dysfunctional home, or if yougrew up the child of an
alcoholic, I I'm a big part ofACA myself, and I I can't
endorse it enough.
I not that they need myendorsement, but I think it it's
it's one of the lesser-knownrecovery groups that are out
there that I just have found somuch freedom in for myself.
(49:13):
Um, if you're struggling withyour own recovery, if if maybe
you know you're looking at yourchild and go, you know, well, I
drink too.
Like, how am I gonna ask them todo something if I'm not willing
to do it?
Be fearless.
Like the water is great.
Jump on in.
Whether you're a family memberof an alcoholic, whether you're
struggling yourself, like thesooner you jump into the pool
(49:36):
with us, the better things aregonna be.
Um, and and the quicker you'llfind your own solution and your
own freedom, regardless ofwhether your loved one gets
sober or not.
Thank you guys for listeningtoday.
If you want to get in touch withsome folks at The Arbor, uh, the
website is thearbor.com.
And uh just for clarification,you know, they're not paying us
anything to say that.
(49:57):
I just I I believe in the workthat they're doing, and I wanted
to make sure that the that theyhad an opportunity to to have
some input on this podcast todaywhile we're out here.
Um Brian Schultz, who's sittingnext to me here, is one of the
most talented interventionistsin the country, I believe, and I
and I mean that sincerely.
Um if if you need aninterventionist, I would not
(50:19):
hesitate to pick up the phoneand and call Brian.
If you want to get a little bitmore exposure to different
interventionists from around thecountry, again, you can join us
five nights a week atIntervention on Call for a free
Zoom meeting where we can giveyou some support and you can get
to understand you know which ofus may be the better fit for you
and your family.
Um but thank you for listening,and we hope to hear hope you'll
hear us on a future episode.
SPEAKER_06 (50:42):
Thanks again for listening to the Party Records.
If you liked what you heard,please leave us a rating and a
review.
This helps us get the word outto more people.
To learn more or to ask us aquestion we can answer in a
future episode, please visit usat partyrecords.com.
(51:02):
And remember, don't enableaddiction ever.
Welcome to the Party Records Podcast, hosted by
seasoned addictioninterventionist Matt Brown.
This is a podcast for familiesor individuals with loved ones
who are struggling withaddiction or alcoholism.
(00:22):
Perhaps they are reluctant toget the help that they need.
We are here to educate andentertain you while removing the
fear from the conversation.
Stick with us, and we will getyou through it.
Welcome, the original partyrecord, Matt Brown.
SPEAKER_04 (00:48):
Hey guys, welcome to another episode of the Party
Wreckers Podcast.
My name is Matt Brown.
I am a drug and alcoholinterventionist.
For those of you who are tuningin for the first time, um, I've
got a a little bit of adifferent episode today.
Uh, I'm actually on location ata treatment program in Texas uh
with one of my fellow providerson intervention on call, Brian
(01:08):
Schultz.
He's here with me.
And then uh two of theexecutives from the treatment
program here, and I'll introducethem here in just a moment.
Before I jump into this, I wantto just remind everybody that
five nights a week, if you're afamily that has a loved one
that's in active addiction todrugs, alcohol, or other
behaviors, five nights a week,Sunday through Thursday, we do a
(01:32):
free family Zoom call.
Uh you can register for that atinterventiononcall.com.
Uh, there's going to be one ormore of eight interventionists
from around the country that areon these calls every night to
give you guys opportunities toask questions, really dive into
getting some really specificdirection on how to handle um
(01:54):
the situation in your home withyour addicted loved one.
And they're free.
We'd love to have you, we'd loveto be able to help you and and
hopefully take away a little bitof the mystery and and the fear
around that scary word of ofintervention.
Um I want to introduce a coupleof people and I'll I'll you know
(02:14):
I'll talk about you guys forhere for just a second, but I I
would really love for you guysto introduce yourselves and and
give a little bit of background.
Um, to my left here, I've gotBrian Schultz.
And Brian is from Philadelphia,he's one of our providers on
Intervention on Call.
If you've been on one of thenightly Zoom calls, you'll have
met him.
Um Brian, good to have you here.
(02:35):
Why don't you tell us a littlebit about yourself?
SPEAKER_02 (02:37):
Sure.
Thanks for having me.
Um, I was just thinking likewhen was the last time we
actually sat next to each otheras opposed to screen to screen,
but yeah, it's been a while.
Um I am excited forconversations like these because
as we were sort of talking aboutbefore we got started, we have
found a way to speak directly tofamilies without any filter.
(02:58):
And I think that whether you'retalking about interventions or
recovery coaching or whateverthe case may be, a lot of times
I'll get the question of likewho's who's the real client?
Is it the person struggling withaddiction or is it the family?
And I think that, you know, if Ihad to pick one over the other,
I would say that it's thefamily.
Because let's keep in mind thatlike the person who's struggling
is also a part of that familysystem, right?
(03:20):
And so the fact that we havelike unique opportunities like
this to talk to everybodyinvolved and help everyone
understand their role in it.
Um I get really pumped for stufflike this.
So thanks for having me.
SPEAKER_04 (03:33):
Yeah, you bet.
Uh sitting across from me, uhthe table here is Dr.
Brian Sanford.
Brian is the is it the CEO orexecutive chief clinical
officer?
Chief Clinical Officer for theArbor here in Texas, in
Georgetown, Texas.
Brian, would you tell us alittle bit about yourself?
SPEAKER_00 (03:48):
Uh I'm a Capricorn.
I love walks on the beach.
Uh uh, I am a marriage andfamily therapist and licensed
chemical dependency counselor.
And I have been working withfamilies and individuals
suffering from addiction forabout 35 years.
And I absolutely love it.
(04:08):
And the thing that I love themost is working with families.
And I love working with familiesin group settings.
Uh, my favorite thing to do isgo sit down with a family in
their kitchen and drink coffeeand try to be helpful and try to
help them break out of thosedysfunctional patterns that
support that addictive behavior.
SPEAKER_04 (04:30):
So by the end of this, if any families want to
have you come to their house andsit and drink coffee with them,
how do they get into it?
I'm kidding.
I love it.
I absolutely love it.
Thank you.
Thank you for being, you know,and and certainly I've known of
you by reputation for a long,long time.
I've been, you know, workingwith different clients
throughout the years with theArbor.
(04:50):
Um, but this, this, these lastcouple of days have been my
first time to actually get faceto face with you.
And it's it's a pleasure to haveyou.
SPEAKER_00 (04:57):
Yeah, it's so it's so interesting because I've
heard of you this whole time,and uh to finally spend some
time with you is prettyincredible.
SPEAKER_04 (05:05):
Well, thank you.
And our other guest, we actuallyhave three on the podcast today,
is Zach Plyler.
Zach is the uh is what is yourrole here?
SPEAKER_03 (05:12):
Director of business development and over the
admissions team as well.
SPEAKER_04 (05:16):
Well, Zach and I have known each other for years,
and it's it's you know, I feellike we're old friends, and it's
just nice to have a differentkind of conversation with you
here and and uh get your take onjust you know the state of the
industry, working with families.
Um, one of the things we wantedto dive into today, actually,
Zach, why don't we before I dothat, I missed the opportunity.
(05:36):
Why don't you all back up andhave you talk a little bit about
yourself?
SPEAKER_03 (05:40):
So uh like Brian, I do enjoy long walks on the beach
as well.
Um, but you know, kind of theway I got into this is uh I got
I got sober myself like many ofus in my mid-20s, and that was
about 14 years ago or coming upon 14 years.
And uh, you know, it's commonthat we love working with
(06:01):
families.
You know, for me, it's morearound I like being able to
offer perspective and solutionto somebody that maybe has never
had it, right?
Where you feel like you're theonly person going through what
you're going through, and youhear somebody like, oh no, like
that's that's what I wentthrough.
That's what my family wentthrough.
And so um, you know, that that'smy favorite thing.
I I love admissions.
(06:22):
I absolutely love it.
I love whenever I'm on the phonewith somebody and you hear the
tension in their voice and youhear like the fear, and then you
say something and you hear itall release.
And so, you know, I would Iwould do this every day.
I do it for free.
You know, I feel I feel superblessed for for the role that I
have within the organization.
SPEAKER_04 (06:39):
Well, I'll talk to the owners and let them know
they're paying you too muchmoney because I'm willing to do
it for free.
Yeah.
If I won the lottery, I just sitthere and and take it take calls
and help people all day.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, and and the interestingthing is, and I'm sure a lot of
the families listening have havehad this experience.
You know, there's a hugedifference in talking with
somebody when you call atreatment program, talking with
(07:00):
somebody who's there to checkthe boxes.
Like, what kind of insurance doyou have?
You know, and and and and reallyjust kind of go through this
script that they have versustalking to somebody who who
actually is invested in helpingtheir family.
And I'm not saying that thepeople that that check the boxes
don't have a heart to help, butthere's a big difference.
(07:20):
And and there's there's aninvestment every time you get on
a phone call with a family.
I know for us, for for me andBrian, I'm sure it's the same
way for you.
Like when we get on a phone callwith a family or when we get on
one of these Zoom calls for me,I I get excited, like you were
talking about.
Sitting in somebody's livingroom, having a cup of coffee
(07:41):
with them, and you know, let'ssolve a problem here today.
And um I think that there's, youknow, there's these call centers
around the country where, youknow, they're getting 30,000
phone calls a month.
And it's like, how can you takecare of families that way?
Because yeah, you might be ableto get their loved one into
treatment, but are you takingcare of the people that are
(08:02):
hurting along the way?
And, you know, we're gonna divea little bit into that today in
terms of family work and and howwe see families show up, how we
we help families.
And I hope that if you're afamily member of an addicted
loved one that's listeningtoday, that you really listen in
for what we see as peopleworking on the front lines with
(08:25):
families.
Hopefully, some of this willresonate with you.
Hopefully, we're not stepping onyour toes too hard today,
because I I, at least, you know,from my point of view, I think
there's some things thatfamilies need to hear in terms
of how they can better supportthe process.
Not only will it create a morestable environment for their
loved one to recover in, butalso for them to find some peace
(08:48):
and some freedom in this processas well.
SPEAKER_02 (08:52):
Um I'm interested in what you just touched on.
I'm interested in hearing Briansort of do the thing where he
lovingly challenges families.
Because so Brian recently showedup to an intervention on call
Family Sports Zoom.
And and Zach, you highlightedthis too.
One thing that he does reallywell is I can see why you may
think that, but let me tell youhow it really is, which is like
(09:14):
not a not an easy line to walk.
Because the thing is, is like Iactually it's interesting this
is coming up now because I I'mprepping for an intervention
this weekend, and the mom of theclient was like, you know, I
just feel bad for you.
Like my son's gonna be the mostdifficult case that you've ever
heard of.
I hear that all the time.
Right.
And I was like, first off, whenwe have some more downtime and
things aren't so heavy, likeI'll tell you some funny stories
that will probably change thatperception in your mind.
(09:36):
But the reality is like, it'snot the addicted individual
that's the challenge.
Like, I know when I walk into anintervention, there are some
things that might happen that Imight not exactly know how
they're gonna go down, but Iknow how that person's gonna
present.
He's gonna be in a ton of pain,he's gonna throw it around with
everybody in the room, he'sgonna be irrational, might be
manic, you know, and andvolatile, but like I know what
(09:58):
that looks like, how to preparefor it, control the
controllables, and let otherprofessionals step in where they
need to.
The challenging part is tryingto get the family to get out of
the mindset that they've been infor the past several years.
And it's like a it's a realtalent of lovingly walking back
some of the things that they areso sure of, right?
(10:20):
Right and getting them to makechanges.
SPEAKER_03 (10:22):
Yeah, there's a lot of uh there's a lot of
conditioning, right?
Like um I think about my ownstory, and there would be times
whenever I would call my momjust just to like check in or
say something, and she wouldanswer the phone, she'd be like,
What happened?
SPEAKER_05 (10:37):
Hello?
SPEAKER_04 (10:39):
Did you hear that when you would say?
SPEAKER_03 (10:42):
And uh, and you know, you get so caught in that
system of feeling like somebodyhas to, like they have to save
you, right?
And and I look at it now, it'slike I didn't do anything for
myself.
I mean, my mom once drove allthe way from Austin to Denton
because I hadn't answered myphone in like 18 hours, right?
She climbed through my window, Iwas passed out, and she climbed
through the window of myapartment.
(11:02):
And, you know, the darkness ofthat is that, you know, she was
uh convinced that I was gonnadie, you know, and and she says
that she'd already like given meup to God.
And uh, but she was convincedthat the reason I wasn't
answering was because I wasdead.
And and she drove four hours andclimbed through a window at you
know, 60 years old.
Um, and I just had her in thatcycle.
I think about too.
(11:23):
Uh, one time I went to treatmentand I get in there, and I'm I'm
normally a pretty pleasant guy,you know, to most people, uh,
but I had like, you know, thismean streak to me.
But the people, whenever I wasgetting done with intake, they
were like, your mom was soworried about like whatever you
were gonna do here.
And I'm like, I'm not apsychopath, you know?
Um, but it's just because that'sthat's what I do is if I if I
wanted something from them andthey wouldn't give it, I would
(11:46):
just get super mean, right?
And I would get super angry orrational.
Um, and so that's how they wouldtry and prep people about me is
like just somebody that'stotally unpredictable.
SPEAKER_02 (11:55):
So much of when we're talking about the proper
way to interact with somebodywho's an active addiction, and
maybe this is just, you know,because I'm a male, right?
And you're a male, right?
But I see that it oftentimeswill come from mom.
It's like when we're talkingabout the approach, the feedback
that I always get from mom islike, yeah, but if we do it like
that, this is how he's going torespond.
(12:16):
And it's like, okay, well, weneed to get you out of the
mindset that the appropriatething to do is based on how your
loved one is going to react toit, right?
SPEAKER_04 (12:26):
We have a specific playbook that we work from.
We don't realize we're doing it,but the playbook is pretty much
universal for everybody inaddiction.
And it's just that the familyhasn't picked up on the playbook
yet.
And and I tell families this allthe time, but you know, anytime
you're doing an intervention,whenever somebody's come into
treatment, there's two peoplethat have to get fired.
(12:47):
And that's the banker and thejanitor.
SPEAKER_05 (12:49):
That's right.
SPEAKER_04 (12:49):
Like, we gotta get those people off the board.
The minute you step out of thoseroles and step back into your
natural role as a wife, ahusband, a mom, a dad, this will
get a lot easier.
Um, what what are some of themost oh yeah, go ahead.
SPEAKER_00 (13:04):
You know, when I I I used to do interventions, and
and I'll always say this is thewhen you go in to do an
intervention, you're actuallydoing an intervention with the
family.
The clients, we we know how towork with individuals that have
addiction issues.
The challenge is to get thefamily on board with what it's
gonna take.
And really, the big picture tooversimplify what it's gonna
(13:28):
take is for the family to getout of the way and let the
individual start to takeresponsibility for their life.
That's the hard part.
And when I do family program,the thing that I emphasize with
families is stop neglectingyourselves and stop neglecting
other family members.
Your loved one that has theaddiction issue has people, and
(13:50):
those people will help yourloved one.
You don't need to do it anymore.
And so it's really difficult forfamilies to back out.
SPEAKER_04 (14:03):
The way uh the way I've seen it and the way I I
will sometimes explain it tofamilies is that you know,
codependency and addiction arejust two sides of the same coin.
And the person who's in activeaddiction uses substances to try
to avoid their feelings.
And the codependent does exactlythe same thing for exactly the
same reason.
(14:23):
If I don't enable this person,I'm gonna feel something that I
don't want to feel, whether it'sguilt, whether it's, you know, I
I don't want to be a bad spouseor a bad dad or a bad mom.
I'm I'm enabling to avoid thefeelings that I'm I'm gonna feel
if I don't do this.
And the genesis of a lot ofthose feelings comes from the
same place.
(14:44):
I'm not good enough.
You know, I'm I'm I'm a peoplepleaser, I'm a perfectionist on
a lot of those early childhoodprogrammings that that we get.
Um, what for you as as aclinical a clinician, and you
know, I don't think I'm not aclinician, I don't I don't think
either of you are, but as aclinician, as you work with
families, what is the biggestand or most common thread that
(15:07):
runs through families that youfeel like?
I mean, you talked about youknow them taking care of
themselves, but from abehavioral standpoint, something
that families listening canreally identify maybe in their
own behavior, what are youseeing that can be the biggest
impediment of them maybe gettingin their own way or getting in
the way of the recovery of theirloved one?
SPEAKER_00 (15:27):
It is the the greatest challenge is it's
really surrender.
It's just like for the addict,they have to surrender to this
idea that they're powerless.
And it's the same concept forthe family, is they're power,
they're truly powerless overthis addiction.
They've tried everything thatthey can imagine to control it,
and nothing has worked.
(15:49):
And so for families to begin thejourney of healing within
themselves, they have to do thesame thing that the addict has
to do.
They have to surrender to thisidea that I can't control this.
What I can do is I can starttaking better care of myself and
start setting better emotional,physical, financial boundaries
(16:10):
and stop neglecting.
So that's it's it's the same forthe addict as for the family.
It's the concept of surrender.
And families, it's you know,some families get there quicker
than others.
Some families will do this cycleindefinitely, they'll never
surrender.
(16:31):
And ultimately what happens isthe primary objective of the
addiction, the addiction outsideof the individual and outside of
the family, the ultimate goal ofthe addiction is to kill the
host and everybody in closeproximity.
And when families andindividuals don't get in
recovery, that's exactly whathappens, is it destroys
(16:52):
families.
SPEAKER_04 (16:53):
You know, I've never heard anybody describe it that
way in terms of it being almostparasitic.
SPEAKER_00 (16:58):
Right.
SPEAKER_04 (16:59):
Where the the intention is to kill the host.
That's right.
SPEAKER_02 (17:03):
Right and great metaphor.
Before the surrender happens,the families who are stuck and
can't seem to surrender, likewhat does how what type of
behavior does that manifestinto?
Like loved one comes totreatment, family is struggling
with surrendering to theprocess.
What does that look like?
SPEAKER_00 (17:17):
Oh, it's it's so entertaining.
Because they'll call every day.
Yeah.
Text, call, what are they doing?
Hey, listen, I have this idea,you should try this.
And you know, where are theygonna go?
Yeah, I can't stop.
Uh, I don't want to stop thetracking on the phone because
what if something happens?
(17:38):
Is they can't disengage.
And that is expressed in avariety of ways.
I have a family right now thatI'm working with, and what I've
convinced them to do is to callme before they try to engage
back into the recovery processwith their loved one.
Because I can block that andsay, why don't you go for a
(18:00):
walk?
Your individual has people thatare supporting his or her
recovery.
Your your loved one doesn't needyou for this.
They need you to take care ofyourself, be a parent.
When you have a phone call, talkabout the the current movie that
you saw, or talk about theweather.
(18:22):
Get out of the recovery businesswith your loved one.
SPEAKER_02 (18:25):
That was the best part of the correspondence that
I had with my family when I wasin treatment, was when we would
have our you know, it startedoff as weekly phone calls.
And specifically, probablybecause I was somebody who went
to treatment throughintervention, I was so slow to
my own process of surrender thatlike when we would get on those
(18:48):
calls, I would be so full ofanxiety about expecting them to
check in on me and my progress,and like, hey, have you called
yourself an addict yet in ameeting?
Like, hey, have you are youworking the steps?
Do you have a sponsor?
And uh and I wasn't there for areally long time.
Really, like the internalmotivation for me didn't even
begin to flip on until thesecond month of treatment.
(19:10):
And because they were engaged ina solid family program, our
conversations weren't going thatway.
It was Brian's doing his thing,hey, here's what your sister's
up to this week.
Right, you know, like dad's gonewith my boyfriend.
I have normal conversations,which then made it safe to
eventually re-engage at my ownwhen I felt comfortable.
Then it's like, hey, I had thiskind of profound sort of day
(19:34):
yesterday, or I gained someinsight into myself in a way
that because they weren'twaiting with pins and needles on
baited breath, like, did you getit yet?
Did you get it yet?
Did you get it yet?
SPEAKER_03 (19:44):
You know, I had an experience early on.
Uh I was probably like six orseven months sober.
And um, my my parents never dida lot of like what what meetings
are you going to or anythinglike that.
But uh um anybody in recovery iswill know, like, especially in
those early days, sometimesthere's just this day where the
thought of alcohol is in yourmind, right?
It's not like you're sittingthere being like, Oh, I'm gonna
(20:06):
drink today.
I really want to drink.
And uh, I was over at my mom'shouse and I'm sitting there and
I just said, you know, I've hada few thoughts in drinking
today.
Uh, and I just saw like it pourover her face.
And it just kind of hit me onlike to me, that was like
normal, right?
Like I knew I wasn't gonnadrink.
I was just like, I'm having oneof these days.
I talked to my sponsor about it,but to her, it was like
(20:29):
terrifying.
And so that's like that was oneexperience that I had where I
was just like, okay, likethere's certain things that I
talk to some to people inrecovery about, and there's
certain things, you know, that Ijust let go uh with my with my
family.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (20:45):
And with my and with my dad, um I didn't really talk
about, he had really goodboundaries.
And uh, we did not talk about myrecovery until I was about 20
years sober.
unknown (20:58):
Wow.
SPEAKER_00 (20:58):
And uh we would talk about normal things, sports,
movies, how other familiesmembers are doing.
And when I was about 20 yearssober, I started sharing some of
the details with him about myrecovery.
And and it really uh wasshocking to him and surprising
(21:18):
some of the things that I toldhim.
And I really needed the time andI needed to work through those
things so I could share thosethings from a perspective of
experience, strength, and hope.
Because if you know, uh a lot ofpeople will just go and dump
with their families, and that'snot fair, that's exactly what
you're talking about becausethey don't know what to do with
(21:40):
it.
And a lot of times there's anulterior motive when we're doing
that.
Yeah, we've got some angle.
Yeah, and if you give me$20,never happen again.
SPEAKER_04 (21:49):
I remember a conversation I had with my dad
where you know I had been soberfor 90 days.
I had been incommunicado withthem for a couple of years at
this point.
It was post-intervention for me.
I was angry, I didn't speak tothem, I hadn't gotten sober yet,
and I ended up living in my car.
And I ended up, you know, as aresult of the pain that life
(22:13):
naturally brought my way, Iended up getting motivated to
get sober or started going tomeetings, met a woman who owned
a treatment center.
She gave me a job at 30 DaysSober.
I didn't tell my family any ofthis until I had 90 days sober
because I didn't want to gettheir hopes up.
And I was also really ashamed.
Like I didn't want to give themthe satisfaction of saying, you
know, you guys were right.
(22:33):
I needed help.
But by the time I had 90 dayssober, I'm sitting with my dad,
and I said, you know, I justwant you to know that I've I've
been going to AA and I'm sobernow.
And he's like, wait a minute.
You're an alcoholic?
And it was almost like I told mydad I was a serial killer.
Right.
You know, like there was athere's a stigma.
SPEAKER_02 (22:53):
I don't understand what you're saying.
SPEAKER_04 (22:54):
Like, do you remember when I was living in
your home and you told me thateither I had to go to treatment
or I had to to leave?
He's like, Yeah, I rememberthat.
I didn't think you were analcoholic, though.
And and and it and I think somany times w and I think that
there's still it's it's not thestigma's not as strong as it
used to be.
But I think there's thistendency with families, and I
don't know if you guys areseeing it on your end, but when
(23:17):
I'm on the phone with a family,a lot of them are wanting to
make it about a mental healthproblem.
SPEAKER_03 (23:21):
Yes.
SPEAKER_04 (23:21):
Well, he's got ADHD, or they've got bipolar, or
they're depressed, or they'reanxious.
And if we could just treat that,yeah, this this this addiction
thing, this this this, you know,the meth use or the you know,
the marijuana smoking orwhatever, it'll it'll take care
of itself.
Yeah.
And I've always, you know, anduntil recently, I wonder like
why why is that?
Why is do they want to make it amental health issue?
(23:44):
And I think number one is is thestigma that surrounds addiction.
But I also think that if it's amental health issue, a doctor's
gonna take care of it and Idon't have to change as a family
member.
SPEAKER_05 (23:54):
Right.
SPEAKER_04 (23:55):
But if it's addiction, I might be a part of
this and I don't want to have tohave any any skin in the game
here.
SPEAKER_00 (24:01):
That's right.
And it, you know, if it's amental health problem, there's a
pill, you just give them a pilland everything's okay.
SPEAKER_05 (24:06):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (24:07):
And I I talk a lot about this in family program, is
you know, maybe it's a mentalillness problem.
And I tell families they're allmentally ill.
Yeah.
There's nobody here in treatmentthat's not mentally ill.
And the substance use disorderin and of itself is a mental
illness.
And so you're exactly right.
And there's a lot of effortthat's gonna have to be put in
(24:29):
place for recovery to happen onbehalf of the family and the
individual.
And a pill's not gonna fix it.
SPEAKER_03 (24:35):
Well, you know, the truth is that um addiction is
baffling, right?
Like you look at it from anoutside perspective, and it's
somebody that you know themsince they were since they were
little, or you know, you knowthem on a very real level.
And I think that it is you seethem straying so far away from
like what you know them to be orwhat they know themselves to be,
(24:58):
that my observation has alwaysbeen like people want to figure
out a reason.
Like, there's no way that youknow, Brian would be this way,
or Zach would be this way.
It has to be that this is goingon, and you know, to the point
where like sometimes peoplethink their their children are
like, you know, schizophrenic orstuff like that.
And it's like almost like theywould prefer if we would confirm
(25:19):
that for them.
And I'm like, hey, like ifsomebody's like an addict, like
there's a solution and they canget over that and have a really
good life, you know.
Some of these other thingsyou're talking about are very
chronic and problematic issues,you know?
And it's just like there's thestigma, stigma of it, but then
there's also like you just wanta reason.
Like, why, why is he or why isshe the way that they are?
(25:41):
Yeah, and uh yeah, I mean, wethink we were talking about last
night at dinner.
That's one of the common mostcommon things we see on the
phones is like it has to bethis.
Do you treat this?
And you know, you hear andyou're like, that's just there's
somebody with substancedisorder, you know?
SPEAKER_00 (25:56):
And in referring back to what you said earlier,
is you were talking about thecase where there was this sense
of uniqueness.
And I get a lot of families,well, you don't you don't know
my son or you don't know mydaughter.
And uh, and sometimes I saythis, I I try to be sensitive to
who I'm talking to, butsometimes I say this is I've
(26:16):
seen a thousand of your sons.
SPEAKER_01 (26:18):
I use that line too.
Which is you gotta be carefulabout it.
SPEAKER_02 (26:25):
Right.
I don't usually follow it upwith like, look, yes, your son
is a unique person, and yes, hedid he is an individual.
And I don't mean to say thathe's just some like sort of
statistic, but the experiencethat you're having with him and
what's going on with himinternally is exactly like every
other person that I ever speakto in this capacity.
And I think that like certainlyall the things that we touched
(26:48):
on around like why it's sodifficult to move them away from
oh, this is a baseline mentalhealth issue, all of that's
true.
And I think the other thing isthat there's a fundamental lack
of understanding about howaddiction affects someone in the
moments when they're notcurrently under the influence of
drugs, right?
(27:08):
Like I was developing myself tothe point where I only utilized
cocaine, amphetamines,marijuana, alcohol as solutions
to regulate my, you know,behaviors, thoughts, feelings.
And so every time I wasn't onthat, I presented as crazy.
You know what I mean?
And they're like, well, he'she's nuts, right?
(27:30):
Well, yeah, but that doesn'tmean that this isn't a direct
result of my addiction simplybecause I'm not currently high
right now, right?
SPEAKER_00 (27:40):
They're doing all sorts of things.
And the the bottom line is isthat the uh compulsive use of
substances is justself-medication.
You're medicating emotionaldysregulation, you're medicating
dysfunctional thinking.
It's it's all the substance useis a just a form of medicating.
(28:02):
And you have to address theissues that are driving that.
I mean, that's and that's whatwe all have to do as part of our
recovery journey is to addressthat those thoughts that I have
that I'm a terrible person, I'mnever gonna amount to anything,
that depression, that guilt,that shame.
Yeah, those are the commonthings that most of us
experience, and you know, thatwe're not unique.
(28:26):
There's many, many people thathave the same experiences, and
there is a solution.
And the solution's not easy, butthere is a solution.
SPEAKER_04 (28:36):
So many families want to get caught up in the
story.
They want to get caught up inthe details, and that's why it's
different for my kid or myhusband or my wife, because the
details are so specific and sounique.
And and when we can get past thedetails, the four of us sitting
here, the details of of thestories that led to our
addictions are probably very,very different from one another.
(28:57):
But all of us know what it'slike to feel sad and lonely and
scared and angry and justdesperate.
Yeah.
And and in in those moments, thedetails don't matter.
SPEAKER_05 (29:11):
Right.
SPEAKER_04 (29:12):
Because you know how I feel.
And that's what matters.
And so when you get a loved oneinto a treatment program and you
want to dive deep into thestory, and you want to talk to
the, you know, a guy like Zachwhen or or a guy like Brian when
you're, you know, talking aboutgetting somebody into treatment
or or doing an intervention, wewant to hear the story because
it will help us better connectwith your loved one to be able
(29:33):
to help them understand, hey,but I know how you feel.
And and and that's the criticalthing because I remember in that
first meeting that I ever wentto, the amount of shame that I
felt and and that, you know,when I, for the very first time
in my life, I said, My name'sMatt, and I'm an alcoholic.
And I just started to cry forfor what I could see was no
(29:54):
reason.
Like, why am I crying right now?
And and to to think that when IPicked my head up and I looked
around, you know, the the room.
I thought I was just gonna seedisgusted looks on everybody's
face.
And that's not what I saw.
I saw people who understood me.
And and they they were there wascompassion and there was
(30:15):
understanding and there was justthis sense of of empathy.
And and that's what I needed inthat moment.
I didn't need somebody to tellme, okay, but here's how you fix
this.
When they put their arms aroundme and they said, Hey man, I'm
glad you're here.
SPEAKER_00 (30:30):
Yeah, it's gonna be okay.
SPEAKER_04 (30:31):
I hope you'll come back tomorrow.
unknown (30:32):
Right.
SPEAKER_04 (30:33):
Like that for me, I don't remember anything that
anybody said in that meeting,but I remember they gave me a
hug, they told me I was gladthey were that I they were glad
I was there, and they asked meto come back.
And and that's all I needed inthat moment.
And I think for so many of us,we just need to feel like we
belong somewhere where we're notburning it down.
(30:53):
And I'm oversimplifying this,and I'd love to hear your guys'
feedback on this, but I think agood treatment center really has
two jobs to create anenvironment where somebody can
have a spiritual experience andto create a member of a
lifetime, a lifelong recoveryprocess, whether it's a you know
(31:14):
AA, NA, you know, whateverfellowship you're gonna belong
to.
But if you can accomplish thosetwo things while somebody's in
your care, you're setting themup for success down the line.
Now, spiritual experience, in myestimation, is not a religious
experience, it's an experiencethat changes the way I see
myself and the way that I fitinto the world.
SPEAKER_00 (31:32):
And that you see the world and you see other people
in it.
Yeah.
Right.
SPEAKER_04 (31:36):
What are your thoughts on like as you guys
bring people into your program,if you could just boil it down
to just its barest essence, whatare you hoping will happen for
that person?
SPEAKER_00 (31:48):
Well, there I do this whole group, it's the
circle of pain.
It's what's going on with thisindividual is they have
accumulated so much pain intheir life that they're
desperately trying to cover itup with something.
And a big part of treatment isto start identifying what those
sources of pain are.
(32:09):
Because if you don't identifythose and start working to
relieve some of that, theindividual will not stay sober
because they're in too muchpain.
And so treatment that's a bigpart, is is to start digging
into that and and start thejourney.
Because for most people, it's along journey to really address
all that internal pain thatwe're carrying.
(32:31):
And the to reference thespirituality piece is, you know,
they may or may not have aspiritual experience while
they're in treatment, but to setthe stage for that to happen,
because I ultimately believethat, and and I can apply this
to my own recovery, is you know,I did a lot of therapy and I did
(32:53):
a lot of counseling, and all ofthose things helped.
But the thing that helped me themost was my connection with a
higher power, the spiritualityaspect.
That's what really helped moveme into a whole different realm
in life.
Now, I had that when I was 15years sober.
(33:14):
So some people have it week twoin treatment.
It happens when it happens.
And what we try to do here is toset the stage for that.
And the other big component iswhat you referenced also, is to
get them to begin to assimilateinto a recovery lifestyle,
recovery process.
Because for me personally, I'mstill in that.
(33:38):
And people that, if you talk topeople that have long-term
sobriety, is that's what they'lltell you is they're consistent
with their recovery program.
And we're trying to helpindividuals start to create
their recovery program thatthey're gonna participate in the
rest of their lives that addsignificant meaning to their
life.
You know, a lot of people whenthey start out, they think, oh
(34:00):
my God, am I to have am I gonnahave to go to those meetings for
the rest of my life?
Am I gonna have to do all this?
But at some point it turns intoI love going to meetings.
I get to go to those meetings, Ilove working with people that
are trying to get sober.
I absolutely love it.
And it enriches my life, andhopefully I'm able to help other
(34:20):
people.
SPEAKER_02 (34:21):
Which is why when we talk about the need for
long-term care, I think thatmight help families better
conceptualize why that is.
Is how am I supposed to knowthat it ends up like that until
I've done it long enough to seethe fruits of my labor?
You know what I mean?
Because for a very long time itwas I have to go to a meeting, I
(34:42):
have to call my sponsor, I haveto.
And it wasn't until I actuallyexperienced the real profound
relief from doing that over andover and over again, and began
to heal the inner parts of methat I didn't even know were
broken until going through thatprocess process, and that never
stops, right?
Exactly.
And then, so like if you'retrying to you always say this,
(35:05):
it's like, how do you explainsalt to somebody who's never
tasted salt?
And I think that's like that,that to me, I see as the biggest
challenge for you guys is toconvey how that happens to
somebody who has neverexperienced that.
SPEAKER_00 (35:19):
Well, you know, a lot of people in parents,
families, clients, they comehere and you hear this, I want
to do 30 days.
And what that statement says tome is you don't understand what
this is at all.
Right.
SPEAKER_04 (35:32):
I want to stay in control, right?
Is really what they're saying.
SPEAKER_00 (35:35):
It's it's because if you truly, this is a chronic,
it's it's taking a person alifetime to develop it.
And it's gonna take a longperiod of time to just stabilize
the person.
And then they're gonna have tocontinue in some support
mechanism probably the rest oftheir life.
SPEAKER_02 (35:53):
And they don't if that statement alone is
recognizing that the motivationof going to treatment is to get
to a place where I can abstainfrom using drugs, right?
I think that if I do a bareminimum of 30 days, I'll be in a
place where I can abstain fromusing drugs, but it ignores the
idea of actually if you really,really dig in and engage in this
(36:15):
process, you can end up a wayhappier, healthier,
well-adjusted person than youwere before you needed the drugs
to solve that problem for you.
SPEAKER_03 (36:26):
Right.
Yeah, your brain can't evenreally comprehend talk therapy
in the first 30 days, right?
With everything that is goingthrough, especially for an
alcoholic.
And, you know, the thing that Iam uh that I'm biggest on is
about connection, you know, andand Brian is very educated, but
one thing that I've always likedabout a style is it's very
common sense andsolution-oriented, right?
(36:47):
And and on the admissions side,sometimes you'll get people and
they are just very focused onthe different acronyms of
therapy that can be provided,right?
Like the education of everybody.
And I read something uh a coupleyears ago.
And in the do you guys know whatthe number one factor in a
successful like therapyrelationship is between a
(37:08):
clinician and a client?
Yeah, trust and employee,therapeutic alliance,
therapeutic alliance, right?
More than more than any othertype of therapy or anything like
that.
If you just have somebody thatyou connect with, you're it's
gonna be way more successfulthan any than anything else.
That's the number one barometerof success with a therapist.
And and you know, we're veryintentional here around just the
(37:31):
way that we build community, youknow, and and I've always liked
that um people we get the callsall the time, like, how much is
it for me to buy my own room?
And it's just like, hey, thereis no cost for that.
Like, we don't do that, youknow, and and part of that is
because of isolation, right?
Like uh a couple of years agowhen they said went to treatment
and he bought like an entirefloor, right?
(37:53):
And you know, I rememberthinking, I'm like, man, like
that's that's not gonna help himget well, you know, because very
much uh addiction wants toisolate you, wants to separate
you.
And you know, we don't letpeople buy entitlement.
And the things that we do forfor grown for grown adults,
right, to to just do thingstogether outside, right?
(38:13):
Play basketball, go down to theriver, play disc golf, just have
a conversation.
Um, that builds some really deeprelationships.
And, you know, anybody who's inlong-term recovery knows that uh
you have to have your your yourpeople, right?
Like if you have a therapistthat's just gonna knock on their
door and they they put you backtogether and then you leave and
(38:34):
you fall apart again.
That's not that's never gonnawork.
And so, you know, like yes, likewe we treat our clients and we
do everything, but we also uhtry and get them back to each
other a lot, too, because thereis a time whenever this runs out
and you have to have that systemif it's going to be long term.
SPEAKER_00 (38:51):
Well, and I I want to comment on something Zach
said.
It's it's you know, we talk alot about uh what is the
opposite end of the continuumfrom addiction?
It's connection.
People that can connect in ahealthy way don't have to use
alcohol and drugs to navigatelife.
And don't want to.
And don't want to.
Yeah.
Because they they they'refulfilled with the connection.
(39:14):
And Matt, you talked about inthe beginning of this that you
didn't remember anything thatwas said in treatment.
I don't either.
I don't remember anything, Idon't remember any counseling
groups, nothing.
What I do remember is thatcounselor that I had, I couldn't
get over the fact that this guyhe didn't know me, but he cared
about me.
And that's what meant the worldto me.
(39:35):
Yeah.
And it came from a place thatwas non-judgmental.
He just wanted to help me.
And that's the reason I decidedto do what I do now, is because
of that guy.
And it's so it's about theconnection, it's about loving
the person that's in front ofyou.
unknown (39:51):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (39:52):
Whenever I'm touring a treatment program, and and I
hope the families listening, youknow, if you ever get a chance
to go and see the treatmentcenter that you're looking at
before your loved one goesthere, the one thing that I look
for is not, you know, how many,you know, diplomas the the
clinical staff have on the wallor you know, when when we walk
by the tech office, are therepeople in there?
(40:13):
Is it full of people or are theyout with clients?
And and those are the peoplethat your clients are gonna
interact with more than anyother person on that staff.
And so if the the tech office,the recovery tech office, the
support staff office is full ofpeople, they're not out there
with the clients.
And and you know, I'm alwayslooking for things like that.
(40:36):
And so those are the people thatyour loved ones are gonna
connect with more than anybodyelse at that treatment program.
And if they're all hanging outwith each other in the tech
office, they're not connectingwith the clients.
And, you know, when they drivethem to meetings, when they're
having meals, like when they'redoing just the the disc golf and
they're out there doing things,you know, playing basketball.
(40:57):
Are these people involved withthem?
Are they connecting with them,or are they just waiting until
they got to put them in the vanand take them to a meeting?
You know, it's there there arelittle things like that along
the way that can really make orbreak, I think, a client's
treatment.
Because at two o'clock in themorning when all the clinical
staff has gone home and somebodywants to walk out of treatment
because they're they're thirsty,who's gonna be there to talk to
(41:19):
them?
SPEAKER_02 (41:19):
Yeah, that's a really it's not gonna be a
clinician.
That's a really interesting areaof exploration is like, what are
the things that you would onlyknow to look for in a treatment
center having only after you'vegone through an experience?
That's a really good one.
I always look for uh I take alook at the text and I want to
(41:40):
know how many of them are uh howmany alumni are working in the
program because now have haveprogressed to the fact where
they wanted to stick aroundbecause they had the experience
of, you know what, I canrecognize like the people here
were operating in a meaningfulway where they were generally
invested in my wellness and theywanted to stick around and get a
job.
Like if you got a program, yougot a bunch of alumni who are
(42:02):
you know stable and sober andlong term and working for your
program.
That's one of the things thatlike you don't see that listed
on a website, you know what Imean.
You can't list that liketrauma-informed care or
individualized care, but there'scertain things that you pick up
on only having after having hadthe experience of the city.
SPEAKER_03 (42:18):
Well, then do you see the the clients doing as
well, right?
Like um I can always tell likeif we have like a younger group
or a more senior group in thecommunity by whenever I'm
touring a family, how manypeople like want to come up and
introduce themselves, right?
Because like the newer people,they're still kind of trapped in
their self and they're like, youknow, not not really thinking
(42:40):
about that.
But the people who have who havelike had an experience, they're
coming up and they're like, hey,what's your name?
Are you gonna get anything aboutcoming here?
And uh about a year ago, we hadsomebody that decided to come
here, and and the feedback onthe decision was he's like, you
know, I toured a couple otherplaces, and this was like the
first place where everybodywasn't in their own world.
Like people came up and actuallywanted to know my name.
(43:00):
And you know, whenever he wasleaving, they're like, All
right, we'll see you Monday.
Uh you know, and it's so youknow, it's not always like that,
right?
Um, people are in their ownprocess, but you know, I uh I
tell people every time I'mtalking to them on the phone or
my team, we always tell them,like, hey, no matter what you
choose, if you're in this area,like go look at every place.
Everybody has a good website,everybody's website says all the
(43:22):
things that it needs to say, butget an actual feel for the
people that work there becauseyou know the staff is is what is
what makes it essentially.
SPEAKER_04 (43:31):
I was touring a treatment program down in Utah
one time, and I was there andthey they'd asked me to to share
my story at the the eveningmeeting.
And so I thought, oh yeah, I'dlove to.
So before I go in there, the theevening tech comes up to me, she
pulls me aside and she says,Hey, I just need to talk to you
for a minute.
I said, Sure, what's going on?
She's like, when you get upthere, I need you to understand
(43:54):
something.
We don't tell war stories here.
Like, this is this is how I Ineed you to do this.
And and you know, we don't warstory, we don't tell, we don't,
we don't, you know, umembellish, you know, we don't we
don't want to make addictionsound attractive here.
So I want you to to explain tothem what it was like for you,
but I really need for you tomake sure you're talking about
how it got better for you andwhat you're doing now to
(44:15):
maintain your recovery.
And I was just Cheyenne, ifyou're if you ever hear this, I
just want you to know I rememberyour name, I remember that
conversation.
Like she lined me out and shewas protecting those clients.
Yeah.
And and I just had so muchrespect for her when she did
that because of just theresponsibility that she felt for
(44:36):
making sure that they left thatmeeting in a better place than
when they walked in.
And and she was just fearless inthe way, like she didn't know
me, she didn't know who I wasand didn't care.
Like, those are my people.
I'm I'm taking care of mypeople.
SPEAKER_01 (44:49):
Yeah, that's cool.
SPEAKER_04 (44:50):
Yeah.
That's really cool.
Well, as we're wrapping up heretoday, guys, like if there's one
message that you feel like youhaven't gotten across to
families today, what what do youwant families to take away from
the conversation they've been apart of listening to us have
today?
SPEAKER_00 (45:06):
The the the thing that and this is what I start
out with when I do familyprogram is I tell there is
people get sober and stay soberall the time.
There is a solution to this.
And so I want to just relay thathope that in families heal,
(45:29):
clients heal, and you can andthey have a completely different
life.
And so there is a lot of hope inthis.
You know, the early part's gonnabe rough, and it's gonna require
a lot of effort and a lot ofwork and tears and etc.
But it does get a lot better ifeverybody involved will do their
part.
(45:49):
And and I also tell clients thisis uh, you know, a lot of times
clients hear statistics.
There'll be a counselor,somebody comes in the room and
says, only a certain percentageof y'all are gonna stay sober,
which I absolutely hate whenpeople do that.
And what I do is I walk into aroom full of clients and I say,
everybody in this room can staysober if they're willing to do
(46:14):
the work that's required.
It's not rocket science, thereis a solution.
SPEAKER_03 (46:19):
So Brian, Zach, any last words?
Um I love what I love what Briansaid, you know.
Um the only thing that that Iwould say is that uh, like, yes,
we believe very much thataddiction is a disease, right?
And uh a trap is believing thatsomebody always has to be sick
(46:40):
and treating them like they'realways gonna be sick, because if
you do that, then they can nevertruly get well.
And so um, you know, that'sthat's a big part.
Even with my friends that havestruggled with addiction,
whenever they try and get likethe pity of like, oh, I'm an
addict, I'm sick.
I'm like, hey, bud, like there'sa solution to this, and you're
making a decision here, youknow.
(47:01):
And so that's the only thing Isee come up with families is
like they just feel like theyhave to they that so and so's
sick, and therefore, like theyhave to help them and always
help them, and it's like letthem find their way.
I'm gonna I'm gonna take that.
SPEAKER_02 (47:15):
Um, I would say that um if you're a family member who
has a loved one who struggleswith addiction, the bad news is
you can't fix them, and the goodnews is you can't fix them,
meaning that yeah, you don'thave to.
It's not your job, right?
And your role is to allow themto be face to face with the
(47:37):
appropriate resources toutilize, not interrupt the
process and allow them to havethe experience that they they
need to have.
And if you really boil it, likethat's freeing.
This is not your job to handle.
And if you try to insertyourself in the process more
than is appropriate, the onlything that you can do is
(47:58):
sabotage it.
The only thing that you can dois to halt their progress.
So, good news, you don't have todo that anymore.
You get to go work on yourselfand um be mom and dad, be
sister, be brother, you know.
You don't have to be the janitorand the counselor, the probation
officer.
God, what a fruit there's somuch freedom in that.
(48:20):
Once you realize that, like,it's not only are you not
supposed to, you can't.
So stop trying.
SPEAKER_04 (48:27):
And if you're a family member listening to this
and you're wondering, like,okay, so how do I do that?
I agree with everything thatthat guy just said.
Well, what how do I do it?
The best way to support yourloved one in recovery is to get
into recovery yourself.
Get into Al-Anon, get intoDakota, adult adult children of
alcoholics and dysfunctionalfamilies.
Uh there's a number of differentrecovery groups, specifically
(48:50):
for loved ones of alcoholics andaddicts, or if you grew up in a
dysfunctional home, or if yougrew up the child of an
alcoholic, I I'm a big part ofACA myself, and I I can't
endorse it enough.
I not that they need myendorsement, but I think it it's
it's one of the lesser-knownrecovery groups that are out
there that I just have found somuch freedom in for myself.
(49:13):
Um, if you're struggling withyour own recovery, if if maybe
you know you're looking at yourchild and go, you know, well, I
drink too.
Like, how am I gonna ask them todo something if I'm not willing
to do it?
Be fearless.
Like the water is great.
Jump on in.
Whether you're a family memberof an alcoholic, whether you're
struggling yourself, like thesooner you jump into the pool
(49:36):
with us, the better things aregonna be.
Um, and and the quicker you'llfind your own solution and your
own freedom, regardless ofwhether your loved one gets
sober or not.
Thank you guys for listeningtoday.
If you want to get in touch withsome folks at The Arbor, uh, the
website is thearbor.com.
And uh just for clarification,you know, they're not paying us
anything to say that.
(49:57):
I just I I believe in the workthat they're doing, and I wanted
to make sure that the that theyhad an opportunity to to have
some input on this podcast todaywhile we're out here.
Um Brian Schultz, who's sittingnext to me here, is one of the
most talented interventionistsin the country, I believe, and I
and I mean that sincerely.
Um if if you need aninterventionist, I would not
(50:19):
hesitate to pick up the phoneand and call Brian.
If you want to get a little bitmore exposure to different
interventionists from around thecountry, again, you can join us
five nights a week atIntervention on Call for a free
Zoom meeting where we can giveyou some support and you can get
to understand you know which ofus may be the better fit for you
and your family.
Um but thank you for listening,and we hope to hear hope you'll
hear us on a future episode.
SPEAKER_06 (50:42):
Thanks again for listening to the Party Records.
If you liked what you heard,please leave us a rating and a
review.
This helps us get the word outto more people.
To learn more or to ask us aquestion we can answer in a
future episode, please visit usat partyrecords.com.
(51:02):
And remember, don't enableaddiction ever.
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