October 21, 2024 • 43 mins
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Denise Klein, co-owner and executive director of Milestones Ranch in Malibu, CA reveals her transformative career switch and her personal recovery from codependency. With over 35 years of social work experience, Denise passionately discusses the importance of addressing family systems and underlying dynamics to foster lasting recovery. Her unique approach involves a systemic, holistic focus on family-centered solutions, offering a refreshing perspective on tackling addiction and mental health challenges.
Discover the innovative methodologies at Milestones Ranch, where Denise and her team prioritize individual and family therapy to heal relationships affected by addiction. Understand why learning to love differently, setting boundaries, and processing regrets are crucial elements in recovery. Denise shares insights into the impact of the pandemic on treatment services and emphasizes the necessity of trauma-informed care. By maintaining a limited number of patients, Milestones ensures high-quality, personalized care, highlighting the immense dedication and teamwork essential for successful recovery journeys.
Navigate the complexities of selecting the right addiction treatment program with expert guidance from Denise and her co-authors. Gain valuable tips on evaluating recovery centers, understanding the significance of visiting facilities, and verifying their credentials to avoid overpromised solutions. Emphasize the importance of persistence in recovery, debunking the myth of a quick fix, and learn about the critical role of aftercare plans. This episode empowers families to recognize addiction, choose effective treatment options, and align efforts with first responders for a supportive, unified approach to recovery.
For more information regarding Milestones Ranch or to order "The Truth About Treatment" please visit: Milestones Ranch or call 1-866-874-9774
Join us Every Sunday at 8:00 PM PST and Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday Night at 8:00 PM EST/5:00PST for a FREE family support group. Register at the following link to get the zoom information sent to you: Family Support Meeting
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Intervention on Call is on online platform that allows families and support systems to get immediate coaching and direction from a professional interventionist. While a professional intervention can be a powerful experience for change, not every family needs a professionally led intervention. For families who either don't need or can't afford a professional intervention, we can help. Hour sessions are $150.
Therapy is a very important way to take care of your mental health. This can happen from the comfort of your own home or office. If you need therapy and want to get a discount on your first month of services please try Better Help.
If you want to know more about the host's private practice please visit:
Matt Brown: Freedom Interventions
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If you have a question that we can answer on the show, please email us at matt@partywreckers.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to the Party Wreckers podcast, hosted by
professional interventionistsMatt Brown and Sam Davis.
This is a podcast for familiesor individuals with loved ones
who are struggling withaddiction or alcoholism and are
reluctant to get the help thatthey need.
We hope to educate andentertain you while removing the
(00:25):
fear from the conversation.
Stay with us and we'll get youthrough it.
Please welcome the partywreckers, matt Brown and Sam
Davis.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Welcome back everybody.
My name is Matt Brown and I amwriting without Sam today.
Sam at least for theforeseeable future is taking a
little bit of a break to focuson some other things, and so, at
least for the time being, ifyou were tuning in to listen to
Sam, you're going to be sorelydisappointed, and I apologize
for that opportunity to hearabout a wonderful guest that
(01:06):
I've lined up for us today.
Her name is Denise Klein, andDenise is the co-owner and the
executive director of MilestonesRanch in Malibu, california.
Denise has just written a bookthat we'll get into here and
talk a little bit about thetreatment industry.
But, denise, welcome, thank youfor being here today.
Speaker 3 (01:22):
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
Tell us a little bit about you.
Let's start out with just alittle bit of your background
and how you ended up working inthis field.
You're a woman in recovery,right?
Speaker 3 (01:34):
Actually I am in recovery for codependency.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
Okay, so that's even you know.
Most of the time when you hearabout people who own treatment
programs, many of us get intothis field simply because you
know we're in recovery ourselves.
But talk to me about a littlebit of a different path that led
you into this field.
How did you get started?
Speaker 3 (01:52):
Well, it's kind of a long story.
It wasn't by intent.
I actually was started out injournalism and broadcasting
before I became a social workerand I was a single mom and I had
a boyfriend my daughter'sfather who was in active
(02:13):
addiction the whole time.
I knew him and gratefully nowhe's been sober for a few years,
so it's wonderful.
But I started out in journalismand I decided that wasn't the
path for me.
So I took a social work classand just fell in love with
social work, because you know,we focus so much on the
solutions and getting out of thestory getting the story but
(02:37):
moving to a different place withthe story so I have never
looked back.
I've been a social worker for35 years and I absolutely love
it.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
So what is the difference between an LCSW, a
licensed clinical social worker,and a licensed professional
counselor?
Speaker 3 (02:52):
Well, with social work we look more at systems.
We go into communities and welook at what's not working and
how we can fill those holes.
So whether it's prevention withchildren and families, or going
into a hospital and workingwith the elderly, or you name it
, I mean social worker coversevery aspect of the community.
(03:16):
So we're always looking forthose little holes so that we
can fix them.
If you are a counselor, by andlarge you're trained just to do
therapy, which is wonderful.
We need therapists.
But social workers thinksystemically and they do therapy
and they're looking at themicro, meso and macro community.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
Okay, so you took a social work class.
Speaker 3 (03:42):
Correct.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
And what happened from?
There.
Speaker 3 (03:45):
It was wonderful.
I took it and I fell in lovewith the curriculum.
I was a single mom and I grewup in North Dakota, so there's a
lot of codependency in NorthDakota.
I say there's about 600,000people there and probably
595,000 are codependent.
It's just in our DNA and sobasically the training was
(04:08):
family systemic and we went intohomes and so back in North
Dakota and later in Colorado,when I lived there, I would work
with families for up to twoyears to prevent out of home
placements of children.
So we'd go into the system andwe'd work with the family and
you might have a father who's acloset alcoholic.
(04:30):
And I remember a mom who wasdiagnosed with bipolar and
emphysema and her medicationswere contraindicated.
So we had to fix that.
And in this particular homethere were three kids who were
in wilderness programs and webrought them all back into the
house and worked with them fortwo years and they never had to
(04:53):
leave again.
I actually was called inbecause they were throwing
matches and gasoline on eachother and they thought the kids
were the problem, but really itwas.
It was, um, because of thefamily systems.
The parents needed to do somework on themselves and so I felt
like there was situations likethat where it was so complex you
(05:18):
think there's no solution, butreally what it is is slowing
down, looking at the familysystem doing really great work
and doing it over time.
And that's what led me to wantto write the book, because when
I later moved to Malibu like 20years later I was just shocked
(05:38):
that people were only given onemonth, two months in treatment
and we're supposed to fixeverything, because all of my
training was long-term treatmentand we saw fantastic results.
So I think that's part of theproblem is that America hasn't
been properly educated in regardto addiction and mental health
(06:03):
and that it is a process.
It's not a 30-day deluxe wash.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
Well, and this is how you know that somebody's meant
to do this work.
They look at a family wheredad's a closet alcoholic, mom's
bipolar, the kids are throwingmatches at each other while
they're soaked in gasoline andsomebody like you or I looks at
that and says you know whatthat's?
That looks like something Iwant to do.
Um, for most people, it's likethis is crazy.
(06:30):
I want nothing to do with this.
I'd rather work in a cubicle.
Um, but people that are wiredwith a certain amount of crazy,
like we are we we look at asituation like that and go yeah,
(06:56):
okay, that feels normal to me.
Speaker 3 (06:57):
It'd be a little bit of a lot of a detective.
You know you have to want toget all the information and a
lot of times especially now inthe year we're hitting 2025,
that people are stretching theirbandwidth so much and trying to
see so many people isn't whatit could be if we slowed down
and we really practice what wepreach and just treat a few
families at a time and not makeit so much about you know the
money and that's not always thecase but because sometimes you
work somewhere and you justdon't have any choice.
(07:17):
They just keep piling clientson you.
But it's up to you to show upand advocate for your patients,
your families and yourself thatthis is my bandwidth and I want
to do it right.
And I say at Milestones we'readdicted to people getting well.
We're not addicted to anythingbut watching people get well and
being part of that process.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
Well, what led you to Milestones from North Dakota?
You said about 20 years ago youmoved to Malibu, but did you
move out there with the intentof going to work at Milestones?
Speaker 3 (07:47):
No, actually I was going to run another wraparound
program for the county.
I wanted to run a smallbusiness.
My daughter had graduated fromhigh school and she went away to
get her social work degree inDenver, and so I was dating
someone in California and Ididn't think I'd want to stay.
(08:08):
But so I wrote myself a littlenote and said I'll stay for a
year and see how it pans out.
And after a year I just fell inlove with it and I actually
took the job at Milestones,because at that point in time I
thought my house was going tosell in Colorado and it didn't,
and so I had to go to work forsomeone else instead of being an
(08:31):
entrepreneur.
But, as we know, everythinghappens for a reason, and so it
turned out absolutely perfectly.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
Wonderful.
Well, tell us a little bitabout your journey through
Milestones, from first going towork there.
Now you're a co-owner and theexecutive director, so obviously
you've come up through theranks.
What did that look like for you, and what was it that drew you
to Milestones?
What has changed since you'vetaken part ownership in it?
(09:01):
I'd love to hear a little bitmore about that part of the
journey for you.
Speaker 3 (09:05):
Well, because of my social work and family systemic
training, of course, right away,you know, I wanted to add more
family services.
So as soon as a patient arrivesat Milestones, we're on the
phone with them.
We're gathering collateralinformation because we're a very
family systemic model.
We don't bring everyone intothe room together like all the
(09:27):
families, like some centers do.
I do appreciate and respectthat way of doing it.
We do private sessions.
So if you say you and yourfamily were involved in
milestones, we would look atwhat's going on in regard to
your treatment issues and then,based on what you share in the
room, we would determine do youneed a little space from your
(09:48):
family right now to individuate,to emancipate a little bit, or
do we need to get in and startdoing the heavy lifting right
away?
And so we do a lot ofindividual sessions, couple
sessions.
Our doctors are available.
I can call them even 22 yearslater after being at Milestones
for this long.
I can call the doctors and say,hey, can you clear your
(10:10):
schedule for an hour tomorrow towork with our family Because
they need some education onneurodivergent disorders?
Or we have a client who's gotsubstance use disorders and has
had a traumatic brain injury.
They will clear their schedules, they will be available and we
do good old fashionedmultidisciplinary work like you
would do in a hospital or in asocial service setting, and so
(10:33):
that's kind of unheard of thatlevel of care and I think we
need to get back to that.
And I'm kind of on my bullypulpit about that because I want
families to receive more care.
It is a family systems disease.
Everybody needs atrauma-informed plan, and so
that's how it evolved.
I started out as a primary caretherapist because I didn't want
(10:56):
to be a manager until I knewmore about how a drug and
alcohol rehab works, because Ihad always worked outpatient.
I'd ran a family program inColorado, but it's very
different working with kids andfamilies and doing a lot of
prevention than it is with alate-stage alcoholic who's been
(11:18):
drinking for 50 years, who's gotcognitive decline, and so I
took the first two years againputting on the detective hat,
studying like a mad woman andlearning exactly what I was
getting into, and I fell in lovewith it again.
It was just like it found me.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
Getting back to that family work, I have seen a
decline across the board,especially since the pandemic.
I think the pandemic it made itvery difficult for families to
do, or for treatment centers todo, family work, particularly,
of course, in person.
But I think across the board wesaw a real decline in the
(11:59):
services that families receivedwhen their loved ones went to
treatment, the services thatfamilies received when their
loved ones went to treatment,and I'm so glad to hear that you
say that that that's somethingthat you guys really focus on,
because it's those of us thatare in recovery from addiction.
You know we don't arrive atthis point in a vacuum.
You know there's certainlygenetic components to it, but
(12:22):
you know, by and largeinformed,when you talk about
multidisciplinary, you know somuch of that has to do with the
input that we received as youngpeople in those formative years
(12:43):
and you know largely the familycontributes to that, the
adaptations that happen thereand how we take care of
ourselves, how we try to get ourneeds met, and just to hear
that you are continuing to putan emphasis on that is so
refreshing and I just wish thatmore treatment programs would
(13:04):
get back to doing that.
Family work, like many werepre-pandemic.
Speaker 3 (13:08):
Yeah, Thank you for saying that.
What we say at Milestones iswe're going to teach you to
learn to love differently.
It's not like you need to goout and hit bottom we don't do
that with any other illness andwe teach them fair fighting
boundaries, how to processregrets, resentments and the
miracle question right, which is, if a miracle happened today
(13:31):
and your family system wasbetter and you, you were happier
and everyone was healthier,what would that look like?
And so you get that littlemicrocosm of what each of them
are looking to change.
And then you start working, youknow, not on huge, lofty goals,
but small, little.
Okay.
Well, we're going to turn ourphones off at dinnertime.
You know we're going to, youknow, have a date night.
(13:53):
We're going to talk differentlyto one another.
So it's really building afoundation that has crumbled
over years and years because bythe time people get to
milestones, this has been goingon for decades and I always
think of addiction in my mind,kind of like an octopus with all
the tentacles, and it affectsyour mental health, it affects
(14:16):
your basement level, belief inyourself, and it affects
sometimes there's legal problems, work problems, you name it I
mean just process addiction,spiritual deprivation, and so
that's a lot to untangle andthose tentacles they're hanging
on and we have to go in, like asurgeon, a therapist does, and
(14:40):
diagnose and look at the x-rayand say, hey, what's going on
here and start creating atreatment plan.
And that's just one person, youknow, when you add the family
system.
So I think sometimes peoplereally don't understand in how
could they how much work has tobe done in a recovery center and
how brave these people are forcoming in and doing this work,
(15:03):
because now they have to feeltheir feelings and they have to,
you know, pull up those oldmemories of things that they
might not be so proud of andshare that and and forgive
themselves and move forward andask for forgiveness.
And so it's a lot of work, butthat's why we only work with no
more than 12 patients at a timeand we have 45 staff at
(15:23):
Milestones.
That's why we've never grown isbecause we're really aware of
our bandwidth.
Everybody works very, very hardand in order to go to a larger
model, the way we do our work,it just wouldn't be possible
without having another centerwith 45 more staff and a license
(15:44):
for 12, if that makes sense.
Speaker 2 (15:47):
It does.
And looking at where you guysare, the restricted number of
clients that you work with, withthe kind of staff that you have
, you know most people elsewherein the country or around the
world that might be hearing thisthey think, oh, malibu,
california.
You know that's one of thosehoity-toity celebrity treatment
programs and that's really notwhat you guys are.
(16:10):
You know this.
You are located in a beautifullocation, but what sets you
apart?
How, other than just the wayyou've described?
How can you help families wraptheir heads around the fact that
just because of where you'relocated doesn't mean that
treatment dollars are gettingspent on real estate?
(16:31):
Because I think that's a reallyimportant distinction to make
with you guys.
Speaker 3 (16:34):
Yeah, thank you.
That is an importantdistinction.
We call ourselves clinicallyluxurious because our experts
have 10 to 20 years in the fieldour doctors, our clinicians.
Do you want to go to thedentist who's pulled a tooth
once or a thousand times?
Right, we want the experts, sowe pay for that's where their
(16:56):
money is going.
We have to, and this is real.
We have to pay them what theywould make in their private
practice setting or we couldn'tkeep those experts.
So that's why that's a chapterin the book.
In the truth about rehab is whyis healthcare so expensive?
Because if you're doing itright, it's very labor intensive
and you have to have experts.
(17:17):
For us it's not the real estate.
It is beautiful.
We are on a ranch, our housesare beautiful, but they're not
mansions, they're just beautifulranch style houses on an acre
of land.
We have some critters, we havegardens, lots of gardens.
We have a wellness center, agym, a pool, et cetera,
(17:41):
pickleball courts which is greatbecause they're doing 18 groups
a week and seven to eightindividual sessions and going to
AA.
They need to have balance.
So the balance comes in withthe wellness activities sober
exposure, therapy, going to theAA meetings, having a little
time to relax, journal, read abook, play board games.
(18:04):
It's really called a balancedlife and that's what we're
trying to help them, becausestress is what's going to take
people out.
What's going to take people out.
Speaker 2 (18:14):
Yeah Well, and it's those three sides to the
recovery triangle You've gotmind, body and spirit, and
whenever one of those sides getsout of balance, the other two
are in jeopardy.
And so it really does take awell-balanced lifestyle.
And I know, early on in myrecovery I mean I knew I wanted
to stay sober, but I did notknow what self-care looked like.
(18:36):
I did not know, you know, howto take care of my emotional
wellbeing, my mental wellbeing.
The only thing I knew is, if Ikeep doing this, then I, you
know, I'll stop drinking andI'll stop using drugs.
Obviously, as time went on and Idid deal with process
addictions, I did have a realissue around food and exercise
(18:56):
and, and you know, I got verycompulsive about all of that,
got really heavy for a while andthen lost a bunch of weight in
very unhealthy ways.
And, um, you know, just reallytrying to figure out those,
those balances, and and tryingnot to, you know I had two
speeds at the time.
Basically it was either fulltilt or a dead stop and there
(19:16):
was really no middle groundthere.
And so a lot of that is justfiguring that out.
Is is how to put focus on theimportant things and keep things
in priority, but at the sametime, let that little boy inside
of me have some fun every oncein a while as well.
You'd mentioned your book and Icertainly want to get into that.
(19:37):
What was the genesis of thisbook?
What motivated you to write it?
Speaker 3 (19:43):
What motivated me to write the book with Kurt Garby
and with Dr Seth Kadish.
So I have some co -authorswho've been in the field for
over 20 years, both of them Oneis Dr Seth, that was a forensic
psychologist and was ourclinical director.
Kurt Garby has a counselingdegree and is a national
(20:03):
outreach worker for PCH andVisions both wonderful programs
and I went to them and I saidI'd like to write a book and I'd
like you to co-author it withme.
It's for admission workers andit's for families and clients
looking for treatment.
To co-author it with me.
It's for admission workers andit's for families and clients
looking for treatment who havenever been through the process,
and people spend a lot of moneyon treatment.
(20:24):
Treatment is not inexpensiveand so I felt it was our duty to
create a book that could answerpretty much all the questions
about how to choose a goodrecovery center and how to vet
programs.
Speaker 2 (20:40):
So, in your mind, what sets a good, good program
apart from those that aren't?
Speaker 3 (20:47):
not over promising and under delivering.
So you can go to websites whichlook fantastic, go to websites
which look fantastic, um, butit's really much better to go in
person and tour the facility.
This is a you know, this is abig decision.
Addiction recovery is life anddeath, and so go, meet the
(21:08):
people, vet the backgrounds.
If you're in a smaller, it'seasier, because you can go to a
hospital chaplain, you could goto a social worker, you could go
to a nurse, you could go to apolice officer and ask five
people the same question what'sthe best treatment center?
Who's doing good work?
And you're going to hear thesame name, especially in small
(21:30):
communities.
In larger communities like LA,it's a little trickier because
there's I just read on theInternet there's like 17,000
programs in the country and mostof them are in California.
So that's a little different,you know, and people like to
come here because the weather'sso great and you can be outdoors
and there really is an activefellowship here, unlike any
(21:53):
other area in the country.
Not that I've traveledeverywhere, but the places I've
lived, they haven't had theservices like LA has, and so
that's why we wrote the book isto help people through the
process.
Speaker 2 (22:07):
It reminds me of an experience that Sam and I had
together.
We were brought in to do sometraining with a treatment center
in the Midwest, brought in todo some training with a
treatment center in the Midwest,and we asked the staff we did
different training sessions,with medical, with clinical,
with some of the frontline techstaff, with admissions, and we
asked them all what is yourdefinition of addiction?
(22:31):
And depending on what departmentthey worked in, depending on a
lot of different factors, we gota myriad of different answers
and most of them actuallyweren't even close to what it
should have been.
And these were the people thatwere providing treatment on the
front lines and, and you know,even from a medical standpoint.
And so you know, that was areal eye-opener for me to be
(22:54):
like, wait a minute, you guysare treating this disease and
you're struggling to define whatit even is.
So I think, yeah to, really forme, at least in that moment, it
really kind of shined a lighton like, do they even understand
the condition that they'retreating here, you know, let
alone the fact that this is lifeand death and families are
(23:15):
entrusting their loved ones tocome and be treated at different
facilities around the country?
Do they know what they'retreating?
Speaker 3 (23:21):
If you recall, you know, back in the nineties and
early two thousands there was alot of information out there
that there was a cure.
And we know there's no cure.
We wish there was a cure.
It is one day at a time andpeople don't really want to.
It's hard for people becausethey don't want to take away
people's hope, because once youhear there's no cure then you
have to roll your sleeves up andrecognize that it's hard work
(23:43):
but it does get easier.
After the neural pathways, youknow, change over the first year
and and you have new habits asyou transform your life it gets
easier and what you would knowbetter than me after like five
years you know, success rates goup even more when you've got
five years of recovery.
And so we educate to elevate atMilestones.
(24:05):
We're constantly educating,hence going back to the book.
So if a family calls me like Iwas on the phone for three hours
already this morning before Igot on this podcast with
families I can say, oh, go readthis chapter and then call me
back tonight and we'll talk somemore.
So every admission worker,before a patient arrives in the
treatment center, sometimesyou're on the phone for a year
(24:28):
before they decide to make thedecision.
Sometimes it's immediate, butthat's rare, and most of the
time you're spending 20, 30hours on the phone and we will
continue to do that.
We want to follow through withour duties.
But the book will be helpfulbecause they can read the
chapters.
And then if you have anadmission worker who isn't as
(24:49):
not admission worker, saysomeone a first responder who
isn't as educated in thecommunity, we can give them the
book too and then they can read.
And then we're all singing thesame tune to the family.
That get them in, stabilizethem.
Look at the underlying issues.
See what's driving theaddiction, what's underneath.
(25:11):
It's like a tip of the icebergsubstance abuse on top.
Is there trauma?
Is there basement levelself-esteem?
Is there a personality disorder?
Are there sleep deprivationissues?
It goes on and on.
That's our job to figure thatout with the doctors and the
clinicians.
And then we can educate thefamily and hopefully secure good
(25:33):
results if they follow theiraftercare plans, because that's
the next piece, of course.
Speaker 2 (25:39):
Well, you talk about the timeline and you know I
can't tell you how many timesI've talked with a family and
they just weren't ready forwhatever reason.
And then a year later, a yearand a half later, I'll get a
call and say, hey, I don't knowif you remember me, but you know
we talked about a year ago andI think we're ready.
Why do you think sometimes ittakes families that kind of
(26:00):
length of time before they'reready to take some action?
Or or even the individuals thatyou work with?
I typically talk with familiesfirst, because I'm working with
those that aren't necessarilymotivated to get help, and so
I'm usually interacting withfamilies first.
I'm sure sometimes you'retalking with the clients
themselves, but why do you feellike families or individuals
(26:21):
wait so long?
Speaker 3 (26:22):
It's a great question I've never been asked that
before and it's a good questionbecause it does happen more
frequently than you would thinkthat it does take a good long
time to get people to finallyget into an action stage, and I
think it's because the illnesswears people down.
(26:42):
Everybody's exhausted, theywant to be hopeful, but a lot of
times they've lost hope becausethey actually waited too long
to make the first call, and sowhen they call and you give them
this information, then theyhave to figure out how they're
going to get to an action stage,and if they don't think that
(27:04):
their loved one's going to gointo treatment, they really
don't have the bandwidth to domuch back and forth, and so I
think sometimes they back offfor that reason.
They're just plain old,exhausted.
Speaker 2 (27:18):
Yeah, the thing that I run into the most is, you know
and this, I think, is one ofthose myths that tends to get
perpetuated without a whole lotof foundation to it, and that is
, you know, we have to wait forsomebody to hit bottom.
And you know, the family's like,okay, well, maybe this is the
bottom and the bottom hasn'tcome yet, and so they wait a
(27:39):
little longer.
And well, maybe this is thebottom and they're waiting for
that event to happen, for thebottom to finally happen.
I think sometimes families willwait unnecessarily, in a very
painful state, for that lovedone to find this.
Okay, I'm ready for some help.
(28:01):
So often I think that there arethings that we can be doing,
whether it's in the capacitythat you're in or the capacity
that I am, to really helpfamilies recognize it's time for
someone else besides theaddicted individual to take that
first step.
And so what kind of signs doyou think families should be
looking for if they have anaddicted loved one?
What should they be looking forin terms of when is it time to
(28:22):
give someone some space, andwhen is it the time to actually
take that first step and startmaking phone calls to programs
like yours, or to really startmoving the ball a little bit
faster themselves.
Speaker 3 (28:35):
Well, the first thing is to educate yourself as much
as you can on the disease ofaddiction and get as much
knowledge as you can, and thengo to someone like yourself and
let them guide you, becauseyou've been doing it so long and
each situation is so differentand timing is important.
(28:57):
I always say the sooner thebetter, you don't let any
disease get worse.
And I also am probably one ofthe biggest cheerleaders ever
for interventions, because I'veworked in the field 35 years and
I've never heard a client say,oh, I wish they went to done an
intervention, even if they camein kicking and screaming.
I always say you'd rather havethem mad than have to be going
(29:19):
to a funeral.
So that's where codependencycomes in.
Be okay with their.
You know, if they they're upset, know you're doing the right
thing.
Get an expert.
I love interventions.
There's a lot of great casemanagement teams out there that
can guide you as well and do itsooner than later, because it is
(29:39):
a progressive disease and thelonger you wait, the person I
mean, especially with fentanylnow I mean oh, it's just like
you, don't have time to wait.
I just heard a story last week.
It wasn't one of our clients,but a client came in, said her
friend had been sober for a year, relapsed on cocaine.
It was laced with fentanyl.
They died one slip.
So, yeah, there's no luxury ofwaiting.
(30:03):
And so, educate, get asophisticated expert and get in
there and let them guide you,because every situation is
different and sometimes, youknow, it might take a couple
weeks of prep to get all thefamily members on board, because
you might have an outlier ofsomeone who's, you know, has
some different feelings aboutall of it.
So, work through that, get in,do the surgery and, like I said,
(30:25):
in 35 years all I've heard isI'm so glad they did the
intervention and they go backand thank their loved ones.
And what they will say thepatients will say is I didn't
have the wherewithal, I was sodepressed I couldn't get out of
bed.
Even though it's not like, oh,I'm going to call milestones
today and go in, this is the day.
That's not like, oh, I'm goingto call Milestones today and go
(30:46):
in, this is the day.
That's not how it works withaddiction.
They're beaten.
Speaker 2 (30:49):
But so many families are waiting for that moment to
happen.
Speaker 3 (30:52):
Yeah, good luck with that.
I mean it will happen, but itdoesn't happen as much as you
think, because you really haveto be practical about this.
This disease affects yourmental health, so they're
depressed, they're anxious, theymight have a diagnosis of
bipolar.
Now there's a more severemental illness.
You just don't know, andthere's a lot of.
(31:15):
It takes a lot of vulnerabilityto reach out for help and the
courage.
So we have to help them.
I went through it.
Speaker 2 (31:40):
I went through it with my daughter's father you
know and, um you know, now he's67, he's got seven years of
sobriety.
We honestly didn't think hewould like that is probably not
fair, but many families are soconcerned about how their loved
one is going to feel, whetherit's hey, we're going to do a
family intervention and we'regoing to ask them to go get
(32:01):
treatment at a place likeMilestones, or just even having
that conversation to begin with,do you think you have a problem
?
Do you think you need someprofessional help?
And what I try to help familiesunderstand is that how someone
feels is the most flexible partof that entire equation.
How they feel today is going tobe very different from how they
(32:22):
felt yesterday.
It's going to be very differentfrom how they feel tomorrow or
a week from now, but their needsare going to remain fairly
constant, and so what I reallywant families to hear is that
stop worrying about how they'regoing to feel.
Let's get their level ofwillingness to rise to that
level that meets their needs andlet the feelings change as that
(32:44):
process happens.
And yes, there's going to beanger.
We fight for control at everyturn while we're in active
addiction Because internally weare so out of control we cannot
control or regulate what's goingon internally with us.
So we have to try to controleverything that's going on
around us.
And when it devolves into apower struggle and we start
(33:06):
trying to play that game ofmental chess of, well, if I say
this, then they're going to feelthis way and they're going to
do that, and so I have to dothis, and then they're going to
do that, and so this betterhappen.
And all of a sudden we're tryingto think 10 moves ahead and
we've overcomplicated it when,if we can just boil it down to
its most simple form and saywhat do they need and how do I
get them willing to meet thatneed?
(33:26):
Now we're talking a muchsimpler process.
It's not always easy, but it'scertainly not as complicated as
I think sometimes we'll make it.
Now, as families get to thispoint where they're willing to
have that conversation, they'restarting to look at different
treatment options.
When they call a place likeMilestones, if a family's done
(33:48):
that education process that youjust talked about, they've taken
the time, they've educatedthemselves, what kinds of
questions should families beasking when they call treatment
centers to really make sure thatthis is a good fit for their
loved one?
Speaker 3 (34:01):
Before I answer that question I'd like to go back to
what you said the feelings, theprocess of the feelings changing
is is so important.
And there's a ted talk calledwasted, and this young gal comes
in and her brother had been inactive addiction through like 18
treatment centers, somethinglike that maybe not quite that
(34:22):
many, but quite a a few and shedid this wonderful Ted talk and
she said addiction is likeyou're out in the desert for 40
days and you come back from thedesert and you walk into a room
and your family's on the leftside and there's a glass of
water on the right side and allyou can think of is that water
(34:45):
and families need to understandthat it feels so personal.
It's not, they'rephysiologically just thinking
about that water.
And then the feelings willchange as they get into
treatment and they feel betterphysically, mentally,
emotionally, spiritually, andthen you won't see as much of
that anger or that frustrationor that blaming like you took me
(35:08):
away from my water right it'slike there's gratitude that
surfaces.
So I I really always, you know,try my best to help families
understand that you need to beokay with the anger for now.
We got power through this.
We just got to get them thehelp.
You wouldn't let any otherillness get worse.
So let's, let's, let's, getthis fixed.
(35:28):
And so when they come in, theyneed to ask how many groups, how
many sessions, how, how manyyears have um the practitioners
been doing this kind of work?
And the biggest thing is umwalk the property, meet people.
Your intuition isn't going toguide you wrong, you know.
Go, feel the place out.
(35:49):
Secondly, um ask how longpeople stay in treatment and ask
for real testimonials.
Like, it's great to readsomething online, Um, but in
this day and age, people can dowhatever they want on the
internet.
Speaker 2 (36:06):
So many of those are AI generated.
These days, yeah.
Speaker 3 (36:08):
Yeah.
So it's really important to sayI want to talk with, I want to
have if you've been in business22 years, you know how many can
I talk with someone who's myhusband's demographic or my
child's demographic and talk toat least half a dozen people and
and get on the phone with them.
And if they won't do that, thenit's not the right place,
(36:29):
because everybody should be ableto have hundreds of
testimonials, live testimonials,that they can send you to.
That's what I would do, youknow, if I was sending my child
to treatment.
I would say I need to talk tosome people who've gone through
the program you know privately.
And I need to talk to somepeople who've gone through the
program you know privately and Iwant to hear, because it's such
(36:51):
a big decision.
It doesn't even mean thatthey're doing anything bad or
you know that they're scofflawsor anything like that.
It just means that you reallywant to see what the experience
is for the person who's wentthrough the treatment center and
were they in attunement withtheir patients Attunement is a
big word to me Are they reallyfocused and are they really
(37:11):
listening and are they reallyreading all the collateral
information, because you've gotyears of information you're
giving them and that makes a bigdifference in the treatment
plan.
It takes longer on the frontend to get all.
That makes a big difference inthe treatment plan.
It takes longer on the frontend to get all that but it saves
(37:32):
lives on the back end becauseyou're looking at developmental
issues what were they likebefore they got into drugs?
So you can kind of startweaning out those diagnoses and
those personality disorderedissues, et cetera.
Speaker 2 (37:41):
And when families start asking those questions one
of the things that I hearpretty regularly as I'm
recommending treatment programsto families you know we start
talking about groups andindividual sessions and so many
times I hear, oh, they're nevergoing to, they don't want to do
group, they don't like grouptherapy, and so we need to
really focus on the individualtherapy.
Why do you feel like groupshave so much importance and have
(38:06):
such a prominent place in thetreatment process?
Speaker 3 (38:10):
Groups are fabulous because the disease wants you
alone and wants you to thinkyou're terminally unique.
And so when you get into agroup setting, you find out that
, like 99% of the time,everybody wants the same things.
Everyone wants love, connection, purpose and meaning, etc.
(38:30):
And so groups bring that outand it's it's good to hear from
your peers um their experience,because sometimes if, especially
if you're dealing with youngadults that might be still
suffering from small positionaldefiance and they can project
the parental figure onto thetherapist, it's better to hear
(38:51):
it from people their own age.
And that is one thing we do atMilestones too is we make sure
that the demographic is verymixed up.
So we always save at leastthree beds for sliding fee
scales.
So we have all demographicsbecause we don't want it to be
homogenous, we want it to bedifferent, we want them to see
(39:13):
that they can relate withanybody.
And that's the magic of being intreatment center that sometimes
I wish everybody could go awayfor 30 days.
And if you sit in the room,especially with the way of the
world, now we all kind of wantthe same things.
There's just a lot of noise onnow.
We all kind of want the samethings.
You know, there's just a lot ofnoise on the outside and you
get into the room and that'swhen the magic occurs.
And another thing that's kindof trending that I'm kind of
(39:34):
concerned about is when they saycustomize the treatment plan,
that means the clinicianscustomize it, not the person
coming in like I want threeyogas, two, two meditations, one
Tai Chi, no, no no, no, no, no.
Speaker 2 (39:51):
We have structure for a reason you know of experience
.
Yeah, you're not ordering avalue meal at Burger King.
Speaker 3 (39:53):
And some treatment centers are letting the clients
call the shots.
If they could call the shotsthey wouldn't be at your
treatment center, you know.
And so you have to be reallybrave to run a treatment center
and just say this is thestructure.
We believe you need relapseprevention, we believe you need
psychoeducation, we believe youneed this experiential group and
(40:16):
and make it mandatory.
Like we're, we also have ourclients unplug.
They get, you know, a half hourin the morning, an hour at
night of time to connect andSkype with their kids, which is
super important.
They need a little bit more.
We're not militant, you know,it's all.
You know common sense.
(40:37):
But no, they're unplugged allday long, and so that's the
other thing is, you know, I justthat my bully pulpit is
unplugged.
I, you know, I went to aspiritual retreat once and my
dad was in the hospital.
I was on my phone because hewas in the hospital and of
course I wouldn't do it anydifferently, but I missed the
whole spiritual retreat.
I didn't get hardly anythingout of it.
(40:58):
You can't do two things at once.
Speaker 2 (41:01):
Do you find that people have an actual withdrawal
process when they disconnectfrom technology?
Speaker 3 (41:07):
I actually think that they would.
We always believe they're goingto have more, but it is so
limited.
Once in a while, if you havesomeone coming in who has a
really true, serious technologyaddiction, you're going to see
more pushback, but it's rareYou're going to see more
pushback, but it's rare Likeit's rare.
After a day or two they likefeel so good.
(41:29):
Their anxiety is down.
Speaker 2 (41:37):
It makes such a difference.
Well, denise, I want to thankyou for for being here today and
talking a little bit aboutyourself and about milestones.
How can people find your book?
Speaker 3 (41:44):
Well, it's coming out the first of the year, so we
will have it on our website atwwwmilestonesranchcom.
And if you ever have anyquestions or need any feedback
about which you know you'regoing through and this is for
the audience it's just call818-667-9537 or 818-879-9110.
(42:11):
We have only three people whocarry the phones for 22 years.
You're not going to get a callcenter, you're going to get a
real person and we will help you.
Help you, you know, until thebook comes out.
And thank you, matt, for allyou do.
I just um.
I know we haven't known eachother real long, but I just love
your vibe and and I love yourparty records.
Speaker 2 (42:33):
Thank you.
Thank you so much.
And for those families thatwant those phone numbers again,
I will put them in the shownotes.
So please feel free to look atthe notes.
The numbers and the contactinformation will be there.
The milestones website will bethere.
Speaker 3 (42:46):
The Milestones website will be there, yay.
Speaker 1 (42:52):
Thanks again for listening to the Party Wreckers.
If you liked what you heard,please leave us a rating and a
review.
This helps us get the word outto more people, to learn more or
to ask us a question we cananswer in a future episode.
Please visit us atPartyWreckerscom and remember
(43:14):
don't enable addiction ever.
On behalf of the Party Wreckers, matt Brown and Sam Davis.
Let's talk again soon.
Welcome to the Party Wreckers podcast, hosted by
professional interventionistsMatt Brown and Sam Davis.
This is a podcast for familiesor individuals with loved ones
who are struggling withaddiction or alcoholism and are
reluctant to get the help thatthey need.
We hope to educate andentertain you while removing the
(00:25):
fear from the conversation.
Stay with us and we'll get youthrough it.
Please welcome the partywreckers, matt Brown and Sam
Davis.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Welcome back everybody.
My name is Matt Brown and I amwriting without Sam today.
Sam at least for theforeseeable future is taking a
little bit of a break to focuson some other things, and so, at
least for the time being, ifyou were tuning in to listen to
Sam, you're going to be sorelydisappointed, and I apologize
for that opportunity to hearabout a wonderful guest that
(01:06):
I've lined up for us today.
Her name is Denise Klein, andDenise is the co-owner and the
executive director of MilestonesRanch in Malibu, california.
Denise has just written a bookthat we'll get into here and
talk a little bit about thetreatment industry.
But, denise, welcome, thank youfor being here today.
Speaker 3 (01:22):
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
Tell us a little bit about you.
Let's start out with just alittle bit of your background
and how you ended up working inthis field.
You're a woman in recovery,right?
Speaker 3 (01:34):
Actually I am in recovery for codependency.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
Okay, so that's even you know.
Most of the time when you hearabout people who own treatment
programs, many of us get intothis field simply because you
know we're in recovery ourselves.
But talk to me about a littlebit of a different path that led
you into this field.
How did you get started?
Speaker 3 (01:52):
Well, it's kind of a long story.
It wasn't by intent.
I actually was started out injournalism and broadcasting
before I became a social workerand I was a single mom and I had
a boyfriend my daughter'sfather who was in active
(02:13):
addiction the whole time.
I knew him and gratefully nowhe's been sober for a few years,
so it's wonderful.
But I started out in journalismand I decided that wasn't the
path for me.
So I took a social work classand just fell in love with
social work, because you know,we focus so much on the
solutions and getting out of thestory getting the story but
(02:37):
moving to a different place withthe story so I have never
looked back.
I've been a social worker for35 years and I absolutely love
it.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
So what is the difference between an LCSW, a
licensed clinical social worker,and a licensed professional
counselor?
Speaker 3 (02:52):
Well, with social work we look more at systems.
We go into communities and welook at what's not working and
how we can fill those holes.
So whether it's prevention withchildren and families, or going
into a hospital and workingwith the elderly, or you name it
, I mean social worker coversevery aspect of the community.
(03:16):
So we're always looking forthose little holes so that we
can fix them.
If you are a counselor, by andlarge you're trained just to do
therapy, which is wonderful.
We need therapists.
But social workers thinksystemically and they do therapy
and they're looking at themicro, meso and macro community.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
Okay, so you took a social work class.
Speaker 3 (03:42):
Correct.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
And what happened from?
There.
Speaker 3 (03:45):
It was wonderful.
I took it and I fell in lovewith the curriculum.
I was a single mom and I grewup in North Dakota, so there's a
lot of codependency in NorthDakota.
I say there's about 600,000people there and probably
595,000 are codependent.
It's just in our DNA and sobasically the training was
(04:08):
family systemic and we went intohomes and so back in North
Dakota and later in Colorado,when I lived there, I would work
with families for up to twoyears to prevent out of home
placements of children.
So we'd go into the system andwe'd work with the family and
you might have a father who's acloset alcoholic.
(04:30):
And I remember a mom who wasdiagnosed with bipolar and
emphysema and her medicationswere contraindicated.
So we had to fix that.
And in this particular homethere were three kids who were
in wilderness programs and webrought them all back into the
house and worked with them fortwo years and they never had to
(04:53):
leave again.
I actually was called inbecause they were throwing
matches and gasoline on eachother and they thought the kids
were the problem, but really itwas.
It was, um, because of thefamily systems.
The parents needed to do somework on themselves and so I felt
like there was situations likethat where it was so complex you
(05:18):
think there's no solution, butreally what it is is slowing
down, looking at the familysystem doing really great work
and doing it over time.
And that's what led me to wantto write the book, because when
I later moved to Malibu like 20years later I was just shocked
(05:38):
that people were only given onemonth, two months in treatment
and we're supposed to fixeverything, because all of my
training was long-term treatmentand we saw fantastic results.
So I think that's part of theproblem is that America hasn't
been properly educated in regardto addiction and mental health
(06:03):
and that it is a process.
It's not a 30-day deluxe wash.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
Well, and this is how you know that somebody's meant
to do this work.
They look at a family wheredad's a closet alcoholic, mom's
bipolar, the kids are throwingmatches at each other while
they're soaked in gasoline andsomebody like you or I looks at
that and says you know whatthat's?
That looks like something Iwant to do.
Um, for most people, it's likethis is crazy.
(06:30):
I want nothing to do with this.
I'd rather work in a cubicle.
Um, but people that are wiredwith a certain amount of crazy,
like we are we we look at asituation like that and go yeah,
(06:56):
okay, that feels normal to me.
Speaker 3 (06:57):
It'd be a little bit of a lot of a detective.
You know you have to want toget all the information and a
lot of times especially now inthe year we're hitting 2025,
that people are stretching theirbandwidth so much and trying to
see so many people isn't whatit could be if we slowed down
and we really practice what wepreach and just treat a few
families at a time and not makeit so much about you know the
money and that's not always thecase but because sometimes you
work somewhere and you justdon't have any choice.
(07:17):
They just keep piling clientson you.
But it's up to you to show upand advocate for your patients,
your families and yourself thatthis is my bandwidth and I want
to do it right.
And I say at Milestones we'readdicted to people getting well.
We're not addicted to anythingbut watching people get well and
being part of that process.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
Well, what led you to Milestones from North Dakota?
You said about 20 years ago youmoved to Malibu, but did you
move out there with the intentof going to work at Milestones?
Speaker 3 (07:47):
No, actually I was going to run another wraparound
program for the county.
I wanted to run a smallbusiness.
My daughter had graduated fromhigh school and she went away to
get her social work degree inDenver, and so I was dating
someone in California and Ididn't think I'd want to stay.
(08:08):
But so I wrote myself a littlenote and said I'll stay for a
year and see how it pans out.
And after a year I just fell inlove with it and I actually
took the job at Milestones,because at that point in time I
thought my house was going tosell in Colorado and it didn't,
and so I had to go to work forsomeone else instead of being an
(08:31):
entrepreneur.
But, as we know, everythinghappens for a reason, and so it
turned out absolutely perfectly.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
Wonderful.
Well, tell us a little bitabout your journey through
Milestones, from first going towork there.
Now you're a co-owner and theexecutive director, so obviously
you've come up through theranks.
What did that look like for you, and what was it that drew you
to Milestones?
What has changed since you'vetaken part ownership in it?
(09:01):
I'd love to hear a little bitmore about that part of the
journey for you.
Speaker 3 (09:05):
Well, because of my social work and family systemic
training, of course, right away,you know, I wanted to add more
family services.
So as soon as a patient arrivesat Milestones, we're on the
phone with them.
We're gathering collateralinformation because we're a very
family systemic model.
We don't bring everyone intothe room together like all the
(09:27):
families, like some centers do.
I do appreciate and respectthat way of doing it.
We do private sessions.
So if you say you and yourfamily were involved in
milestones, we would look atwhat's going on in regard to
your treatment issues and then,based on what you share in the
room, we would determine do youneed a little space from your
(09:48):
family right now to individuate,to emancipate a little bit, or
do we need to get in and startdoing the heavy lifting right
away?
And so we do a lot ofindividual sessions, couple
sessions.
Our doctors are available.
I can call them even 22 yearslater after being at Milestones
for this long.
I can call the doctors and say,hey, can you clear your
(10:10):
schedule for an hour tomorrow towork with our family Because
they need some education onneurodivergent disorders?
Or we have a client who's gotsubstance use disorders and has
had a traumatic brain injury.
They will clear their schedules, they will be available and we
do good old fashionedmultidisciplinary work like you
would do in a hospital or in asocial service setting, and so
(10:33):
that's kind of unheard of thatlevel of care and I think we
need to get back to that.
And I'm kind of on my bullypulpit about that because I want
families to receive more care.
It is a family systems disease.
Everybody needs atrauma-informed plan, and so
that's how it evolved.
I started out as a primary caretherapist because I didn't want
(10:56):
to be a manager until I knewmore about how a drug and
alcohol rehab works, because Ihad always worked outpatient.
I'd ran a family program inColorado, but it's very
different working with kids andfamilies and doing a lot of
prevention than it is with alate-stage alcoholic who's been
(11:18):
drinking for 50 years, who's gotcognitive decline, and so I
took the first two years againputting on the detective hat,
studying like a mad woman andlearning exactly what I was
getting into, and I fell in lovewith it again.
It was just like it found me.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
Getting back to that family work, I have seen a
decline across the board,especially since the pandemic.
I think the pandemic it made itvery difficult for families to
do, or for treatment centers todo, family work, particularly,
of course, in person.
But I think across the board wesaw a real decline in the
(11:59):
services that families receivedwhen their loved ones went to
treatment, the services thatfamilies received when their
loved ones went to treatment,and I'm so glad to hear that you
say that that that's somethingthat you guys really focus on,
because it's those of us thatare in recovery from addiction.
You know we don't arrive atthis point in a vacuum.
You know there's certainlygenetic components to it, but
(12:22):
you know, by and largeinformed,when you talk about
multidisciplinary, you know somuch of that has to do with the
input that we received as youngpeople in those formative years
(12:43):
and you know largely the familycontributes to that, the
adaptations that happen thereand how we take care of
ourselves, how we try to get ourneeds met, and just to hear
that you are continuing to putan emphasis on that is so
refreshing and I just wish thatmore treatment programs would
(13:04):
get back to doing that.
Family work, like many werepre-pandemic.
Speaker 3 (13:08):
Yeah, Thank you for saying that.
What we say at Milestones iswe're going to teach you to
learn to love differently.
It's not like you need to goout and hit bottom we don't do
that with any other illness andwe teach them fair fighting
boundaries, how to processregrets, resentments and the
miracle question right, which is, if a miracle happened today
(13:31):
and your family system wasbetter and you, you were happier
and everyone was healthier,what would that look like?
And so you get that littlemicrocosm of what each of them
are looking to change.
And then you start working, youknow, not on huge, lofty goals,
but small, little.
Okay.
Well, we're going to turn ourphones off at dinnertime.
You know we're going to, youknow, have a date night.
(13:53):
We're going to talk differentlyto one another.
So it's really building afoundation that has crumbled
over years and years because bythe time people get to
milestones, this has been goingon for decades and I always
think of addiction in my mind,kind of like an octopus with all
the tentacles, and it affectsyour mental health, it affects
(14:16):
your basement level, belief inyourself, and it affects
sometimes there's legal problems, work problems, you name it I
mean just process addiction,spiritual deprivation, and so
that's a lot to untangle andthose tentacles they're hanging
on and we have to go in, like asurgeon, a therapist does, and
(14:40):
diagnose and look at the x-rayand say, hey, what's going on
here and start creating atreatment plan.
And that's just one person, youknow, when you add the family
system.
So I think sometimes peoplereally don't understand in how
could they how much work has tobe done in a recovery center and
how brave these people are forcoming in and doing this work,
(15:03):
because now they have to feeltheir feelings and they have to,
you know, pull up those oldmemories of things that they
might not be so proud of andshare that and and forgive
themselves and move forward andask for forgiveness.
And so it's a lot of work, butthat's why we only work with no
more than 12 patients at a timeand we have 45 staff at
(15:23):
Milestones.
That's why we've never grown isbecause we're really aware of
our bandwidth.
Everybody works very, very hardand in order to go to a larger
model, the way we do our work,it just wouldn't be possible
without having another centerwith 45 more staff and a license
(15:44):
for 12, if that makes sense.
Speaker 2 (15:47):
It does.
And looking at where you guysare, the restricted number of
clients that you work with, withthe kind of staff that you have
, you know most people elsewherein the country or around the
world that might be hearing thisthey think, oh, malibu,
california.
You know that's one of thosehoity-toity celebrity treatment
programs and that's really notwhat you guys are.
(16:10):
You know this.
You are located in a beautifullocation, but what sets you
apart?
How, other than just the wayyou've described?
How can you help families wraptheir heads around the fact that
just because of where you'relocated doesn't mean that
treatment dollars are gettingspent on real estate?
(16:31):
Because I think that's a reallyimportant distinction to make
with you guys.
Speaker 3 (16:34):
Yeah, thank you.
That is an importantdistinction.
We call ourselves clinicallyluxurious because our experts
have 10 to 20 years in the fieldour doctors, our clinicians.
Do you want to go to thedentist who's pulled a tooth
once or a thousand times?
Right, we want the experts, sowe pay for that's where their
(16:56):
money is going.
We have to, and this is real.
We have to pay them what theywould make in their private
practice setting or we couldn'tkeep those experts.
So that's why that's a chapterin the book.
In the truth about rehab is whyis healthcare so expensive?
Because if you're doing itright, it's very labor intensive
and you have to have experts.
(17:17):
For us it's not the real estate.
It is beautiful.
We are on a ranch, our housesare beautiful, but they're not
mansions, they're just beautifulranch style houses on an acre
of land.
We have some critters, we havegardens, lots of gardens.
We have a wellness center, agym, a pool, et cetera,
(17:41):
pickleball courts which is greatbecause they're doing 18 groups
a week and seven to eightindividual sessions and going to
AA.
They need to have balance.
So the balance comes in withthe wellness activities sober
exposure, therapy, going to theAA meetings, having a little
time to relax, journal, read abook, play board games.
(18:04):
It's really called a balancedlife and that's what we're
trying to help them, becausestress is what's going to take
people out.
What's going to take people out.
Speaker 2 (18:14):
Yeah Well, and it's those three sides to the
recovery triangle You've gotmind, body and spirit, and
whenever one of those sides getsout of balance, the other two
are in jeopardy.
And so it really does take awell-balanced lifestyle.
And I know, early on in myrecovery I mean I knew I wanted
to stay sober, but I did notknow what self-care looked like.
(18:36):
I did not know, you know, howto take care of my emotional
wellbeing, my mental wellbeing.
The only thing I knew is, if Ikeep doing this, then I, you
know, I'll stop drinking andI'll stop using drugs.
Obviously, as time went on and Idid deal with process
addictions, I did have a realissue around food and exercise
(18:56):
and, and you know, I got verycompulsive about all of that,
got really heavy for a while andthen lost a bunch of weight in
very unhealthy ways.
And, um, you know, just reallytrying to figure out those,
those balances, and and tryingnot to, you know I had two
speeds at the time.
Basically it was either fulltilt or a dead stop and there
(19:16):
was really no middle groundthere.
And so a lot of that is justfiguring that out.
Is is how to put focus on theimportant things and keep things
in priority, but at the sametime, let that little boy inside
of me have some fun every oncein a while as well.
You'd mentioned your book and Icertainly want to get into that.
(19:37):
What was the genesis of thisbook?
What motivated you to write it?
Speaker 3 (19:43):
What motivated me to write the book with Kurt Garby
and with Dr Seth Kadish.
So I have some co -authorswho've been in the field for
over 20 years, both of them Oneis Dr Seth, that was a forensic
psychologist and was ourclinical director.
Kurt Garby has a counselingdegree and is a national
(20:03):
outreach worker for PCH andVisions both wonderful programs
and I went to them and I saidI'd like to write a book and I'd
like you to co-author it withme.
It's for admission workers andit's for families and clients
looking for treatment.
To co-author it with me.
It's for admission workers andit's for families and clients
looking for treatment who havenever been through the process,
and people spend a lot of moneyon treatment.
(20:24):
Treatment is not inexpensiveand so I felt it was our duty to
create a book that could answerpretty much all the questions
about how to choose a goodrecovery center and how to vet
programs.
Speaker 2 (20:40):
So, in your mind, what sets a good, good program
apart from those that aren't?
Speaker 3 (20:47):
not over promising and under delivering.
So you can go to websites whichlook fantastic, go to websites
which look fantastic, um, butit's really much better to go in
person and tour the facility.
This is a you know, this is abig decision.
Addiction recovery is life anddeath, and so go, meet the
(21:08):
people, vet the backgrounds.
If you're in a smaller, it'seasier, because you can go to a
hospital chaplain, you could goto a social worker, you could go
to a nurse, you could go to apolice officer and ask five
people the same question what'sthe best treatment center?
Who's doing good work?
And you're going to hear thesame name, especially in small
(21:30):
communities.
In larger communities like LA,it's a little trickier because
there's I just read on theInternet there's like 17,000
programs in the country and mostof them are in California.
So that's a little different,you know, and people like to
come here because the weather'sso great and you can be outdoors
and there really is an activefellowship here, unlike any
(21:53):
other area in the country.
Not that I've traveledeverywhere, but the places I've
lived, they haven't had theservices like LA has, and so
that's why we wrote the book isto help people through the
process.
Speaker 2 (22:07):
It reminds me of an experience that Sam and I had
together.
We were brought in to do sometraining with a treatment center
in the Midwest, brought in todo some training with a
treatment center in the Midwest,and we asked the staff we did
different training sessions,with medical, with clinical,
with some of the frontline techstaff, with admissions, and we
asked them all what is yourdefinition of addiction?
(22:31):
And depending on what departmentthey worked in, depending on a
lot of different factors, we gota myriad of different answers
and most of them actuallyweren't even close to what it
should have been.
And these were the people thatwere providing treatment on the
front lines and, and you know,even from a medical standpoint.
And so you know, that was areal eye-opener for me to be
(22:54):
like, wait a minute, you guysare treating this disease and
you're struggling to define whatit even is.
So I think, yeah to, really forme, at least in that moment, it
really kind of shined a lighton like, do they even understand
the condition that they'retreating here, you know, let
alone the fact that this is lifeand death and families are
(23:15):
entrusting their loved ones tocome and be treated at different
facilities around the country?
Do they know what they'retreating?
Speaker 3 (23:21):
If you recall, you know, back in the nineties and
early two thousands there was alot of information out there
that there was a cure.
And we know there's no cure.
We wish there was a cure.
It is one day at a time andpeople don't really want to.
It's hard for people becausethey don't want to take away
people's hope, because once youhear there's no cure then you
have to roll your sleeves up andrecognize that it's hard work
(23:43):
but it does get easier.
After the neural pathways, youknow, change over the first year
and and you have new habits asyou transform your life it gets
easier and what you would knowbetter than me after like five
years you know, success rates goup even more when you've got
five years of recovery.
And so we educate to elevate atMilestones.
(24:05):
We're constantly educating,hence going back to the book.
So if a family calls me like Iwas on the phone for three hours
already this morning before Igot on this podcast with
families I can say, oh, go readthis chapter and then call me
back tonight and we'll talk somemore.
So every admission worker,before a patient arrives in the
treatment center, sometimesyou're on the phone for a year
(24:28):
before they decide to make thedecision.
Sometimes it's immediate, butthat's rare, and most of the
time you're spending 20, 30hours on the phone and we will
continue to do that.
We want to follow through withour duties.
But the book will be helpfulbecause they can read the
chapters.
And then if you have anadmission worker who isn't as
(24:49):
not admission worker, saysomeone a first responder who
isn't as educated in thecommunity, we can give them the
book too and then they can read.
And then we're all singing thesame tune to the family.
That get them in, stabilizethem.
Look at the underlying issues.
See what's driving theaddiction, what's underneath.
(25:11):
It's like a tip of the icebergsubstance abuse on top.
Is there trauma?
Is there basement levelself-esteem?
Is there a personality disorder?
Are there sleep deprivationissues?
It goes on and on.
That's our job to figure thatout with the doctors and the
clinicians.
And then we can educate thefamily and hopefully secure good
(25:33):
results if they follow theiraftercare plans, because that's
the next piece, of course.
Speaker 2 (25:39):
Well, you talk about the timeline and you know I
can't tell you how many timesI've talked with a family and
they just weren't ready forwhatever reason.
And then a year later, a yearand a half later, I'll get a
call and say, hey, I don't knowif you remember me, but you know
we talked about a year ago andI think we're ready.
Why do you think sometimes ittakes families that kind of
(26:00):
length of time before they'reready to take some action?
Or or even the individuals thatyou work with?
I typically talk with familiesfirst, because I'm working with
those that aren't necessarilymotivated to get help, and so
I'm usually interacting withfamilies first.
I'm sure sometimes you'retalking with the clients
themselves, but why do you feellike families or individuals
(26:21):
wait so long?
Speaker 3 (26:22):
It's a great question I've never been asked that
before and it's a good questionbecause it does happen more
frequently than you would thinkthat it does take a good long
time to get people to finallyget into an action stage, and I
think it's because the illnesswears people down.
(26:42):
Everybody's exhausted, theywant to be hopeful, but a lot of
times they've lost hope becausethey actually waited too long
to make the first call, and sowhen they call and you give them
this information, then theyhave to figure out how they're
going to get to an action stage,and if they don't think that
(27:04):
their loved one's going to gointo treatment, they really
don't have the bandwidth to domuch back and forth, and so I
think sometimes they back offfor that reason.
They're just plain old,exhausted.
Speaker 2 (27:18):
Yeah, the thing that I run into the most is, you know
and this, I think, is one ofthose myths that tends to get
perpetuated without a whole lotof foundation to it, and that is
, you know, we have to wait forsomebody to hit bottom.
And you know, the family's like,okay, well, maybe this is the
bottom and the bottom hasn'tcome yet, and so they wait a
(27:39):
little longer.
And well, maybe this is thebottom and they're waiting for
that event to happen, for thebottom to finally happen.
I think sometimes families willwait unnecessarily, in a very
painful state, for that lovedone to find this.
Okay, I'm ready for some help.
(28:01):
So often I think that there arethings that we can be doing,
whether it's in the capacitythat you're in or the capacity
that I am, to really helpfamilies recognize it's time for
someone else besides theaddicted individual to take that
first step.
And so what kind of signs doyou think families should be
looking for if they have anaddicted loved one?
What should they be looking forin terms of when is it time to
(28:22):
give someone some space, andwhen is it the time to actually
take that first step and startmaking phone calls to programs
like yours, or to really startmoving the ball a little bit
faster themselves.
Speaker 3 (28:35):
Well, the first thing is to educate yourself as much
as you can on the disease ofaddiction and get as much
knowledge as you can, and thengo to someone like yourself and
let them guide you, becauseyou've been doing it so long and
each situation is so differentand timing is important.
(28:57):
I always say the sooner thebetter, you don't let any
disease get worse.
And I also am probably one ofthe biggest cheerleaders ever
for interventions, because I'veworked in the field 35 years and
I've never heard a client say,oh, I wish they went to done an
intervention, even if they camein kicking and screaming.
I always say you'd rather havethem mad than have to be going
(29:19):
to a funeral.
So that's where codependencycomes in.
Be okay with their.
You know, if they they're upset, know you're doing the right
thing.
Get an expert.
I love interventions.
There's a lot of great casemanagement teams out there that
can guide you as well and do itsooner than later, because it is
(29:39):
a progressive disease and thelonger you wait, the person I
mean, especially with fentanylnow I mean oh, it's just like
you, don't have time to wait.
I just heard a story last week.
It wasn't one of our clients,but a client came in, said her
friend had been sober for a year, relapsed on cocaine.
It was laced with fentanyl.
They died one slip.
So, yeah, there's no luxury ofwaiting.
(30:03):
And so, educate, get asophisticated expert and get in
there and let them guide you,because every situation is
different and sometimes, youknow, it might take a couple
weeks of prep to get all thefamily members on board, because
you might have an outlier ofsomeone who's, you know, has
some different feelings aboutall of it.
So, work through that, get in,do the surgery and, like I said,
(30:25):
in 35 years all I've heard isI'm so glad they did the
intervention and they go backand thank their loved ones.
And what they will say thepatients will say is I didn't
have the wherewithal, I was sodepressed I couldn't get out of
bed.
Even though it's not like, oh,I'm going to call milestones
today and go in, this is the day.
That's not like, oh, I'm goingto call Milestones today and go
(30:46):
in, this is the day.
That's not how it works withaddiction.
They're beaten.
Speaker 2 (30:49):
But so many families are waiting for that moment to
happen.
Speaker 3 (30:52):
Yeah, good luck with that.
I mean it will happen, but itdoesn't happen as much as you
think, because you really haveto be practical about this.
This disease affects yourmental health, so they're
depressed, they're anxious, theymight have a diagnosis of
bipolar.
Now there's a more severemental illness.
You just don't know, andthere's a lot of.
(31:15):
It takes a lot of vulnerabilityto reach out for help and the
courage.
So we have to help them.
I went through it.
Speaker 2 (31:40):
I went through it with my daughter's father you
know and, um you know, now he's67, he's got seven years of
sobriety.
We honestly didn't think hewould like that is probably not
fair, but many families are soconcerned about how their loved
one is going to feel, whetherit's hey, we're going to do a
family intervention and we'regoing to ask them to go get
(32:01):
treatment at a place likeMilestones, or just even having
that conversation to begin with,do you think you have a problem
?
Do you think you need someprofessional help?
And what I try to help familiesunderstand is that how someone
feels is the most flexible partof that entire equation.
How they feel today is going tobe very different from how they
(32:22):
felt yesterday.
It's going to be very differentfrom how they feel tomorrow or
a week from now, but their needsare going to remain fairly
constant, and so what I reallywant families to hear is that
stop worrying about how they'regoing to feel.
Let's get their level ofwillingness to rise to that
level that meets their needs andlet the feelings change as that
(32:44):
process happens.
And yes, there's going to beanger.
We fight for control at everyturn while we're in active
addiction Because internally weare so out of control we cannot
control or regulate what's goingon internally with us.
So we have to try to controleverything that's going on
around us.
And when it devolves into apower struggle and we start
(33:06):
trying to play that game ofmental chess of, well, if I say
this, then they're going to feelthis way and they're going to
do that, and so I have to dothis, and then they're going to
do that, and so this betterhappen.
And all of a sudden we're tryingto think 10 moves ahead and
we've overcomplicated it when,if we can just boil it down to
its most simple form and saywhat do they need and how do I
get them willing to meet thatneed?
(33:26):
Now we're talking a muchsimpler process.
It's not always easy, but it'scertainly not as complicated as
I think sometimes we'll make it.
Now, as families get to thispoint where they're willing to
have that conversation, they'restarting to look at different
treatment options.
When they call a place likeMilestones, if a family's done
(33:48):
that education process that youjust talked about, they've taken
the time, they've educatedthemselves, what kinds of
questions should families beasking when they call treatment
centers to really make sure thatthis is a good fit for their
loved one?
Speaker 3 (34:01):
Before I answer that question I'd like to go back to
what you said the feelings, theprocess of the feelings changing
is is so important.
And there's a ted talk calledwasted, and this young gal comes
in and her brother had been inactive addiction through like 18
treatment centers, somethinglike that maybe not quite that
(34:22):
many, but quite a a few and shedid this wonderful Ted talk and
she said addiction is likeyou're out in the desert for 40
days and you come back from thedesert and you walk into a room
and your family's on the leftside and there's a glass of
water on the right side and allyou can think of is that water
(34:45):
and families need to understandthat it feels so personal.
It's not, they'rephysiologically just thinking
about that water.
And then the feelings willchange as they get into
treatment and they feel betterphysically, mentally,
emotionally, spiritually, andthen you won't see as much of
that anger or that frustrationor that blaming like you took me
(35:08):
away from my water right it'slike there's gratitude that
surfaces.
So I I really always, you know,try my best to help families
understand that you need to beokay with the anger for now.
We got power through this.
We just got to get them thehelp.
You wouldn't let any otherillness get worse.
So let's, let's, let's, getthis fixed.
(35:28):
And so when they come in, theyneed to ask how many groups, how
many sessions, how, how manyyears have um the practitioners
been doing this kind of work?
And the biggest thing is umwalk the property, meet people.
Your intuition isn't going toguide you wrong, you know.
Go, feel the place out.
(35:49):
Secondly, um ask how longpeople stay in treatment and ask
for real testimonials.
Like, it's great to readsomething online, Um, but in
this day and age, people can dowhatever they want on the
internet.
Speaker 2 (36:06):
So many of those are AI generated.
These days, yeah.
Speaker 3 (36:08):
Yeah.
So it's really important to sayI want to talk with, I want to
have if you've been in business22 years, you know how many can
I talk with someone who's myhusband's demographic or my
child's demographic and talk toat least half a dozen people and
and get on the phone with them.
And if they won't do that, thenit's not the right place,
(36:29):
because everybody should be ableto have hundreds of
testimonials, live testimonials,that they can send you to.
That's what I would do, youknow, if I was sending my child
to treatment.
I would say I need to talk tosome people who've gone through
the program you know privately.
And I need to talk to somepeople who've gone through the
program you know privately and Iwant to hear, because it's such
(36:51):
a big decision.
It doesn't even mean thatthey're doing anything bad or
you know that they're scofflawsor anything like that.
It just means that you reallywant to see what the experience
is for the person who's wentthrough the treatment center and
were they in attunement withtheir patients Attunement is a
big word to me Are they reallyfocused and are they really
(37:11):
listening and are they reallyreading all the collateral
information, because you've gotyears of information you're
giving them and that makes a bigdifference in the treatment
plan.
It takes longer on the frontend to get all.
That makes a big difference inthe treatment plan.
It takes longer on the frontend to get all that but it saves
(37:32):
lives on the back end becauseyou're looking at developmental
issues what were they likebefore they got into drugs?
So you can kind of startweaning out those diagnoses and
those personality disorderedissues, et cetera.
Speaker 2 (37:41):
And when families start asking those questions one
of the things that I hearpretty regularly as I'm
recommending treatment programsto families you know we start
talking about groups andindividual sessions and so many
times I hear, oh, they're nevergoing to, they don't want to do
group, they don't like grouptherapy, and so we need to
really focus on the individualtherapy.
Why do you feel like groupshave so much importance and have
(38:06):
such a prominent place in thetreatment process?
Speaker 3 (38:10):
Groups are fabulous because the disease wants you
alone and wants you to thinkyou're terminally unique.
And so when you get into agroup setting, you find out that
, like 99% of the time,everybody wants the same things.
Everyone wants love, connection, purpose and meaning, etc.
(38:30):
And so groups bring that outand it's it's good to hear from
your peers um their experience,because sometimes if, especially
if you're dealing with youngadults that might be still
suffering from small positionaldefiance and they can project
the parental figure onto thetherapist, it's better to hear
(38:51):
it from people their own age.
And that is one thing we do atMilestones too is we make sure
that the demographic is verymixed up.
So we always save at leastthree beds for sliding fee
scales.
So we have all demographicsbecause we don't want it to be
homogenous, we want it to bedifferent, we want them to see
(39:13):
that they can relate withanybody.
And that's the magic of being intreatment center that sometimes
I wish everybody could go awayfor 30 days.
And if you sit in the room,especially with the way of the
world, now we all kind of wantthe same things.
There's just a lot of noise onnow.
We all kind of want the samethings.
You know, there's just a lot ofnoise on the outside and you
get into the room and that'swhen the magic occurs.
And another thing that's kindof trending that I'm kind of
(39:34):
concerned about is when they saycustomize the treatment plan,
that means the clinicianscustomize it, not the person
coming in like I want threeyogas, two, two meditations, one
Tai Chi, no, no no, no, no, no.
Speaker 2 (39:51):
We have structure for a reason you know of experience
.
Yeah, you're not ordering avalue meal at Burger King.
Speaker 3 (39:53):
And some treatment centers are letting the clients
call the shots.
If they could call the shotsthey wouldn't be at your
treatment center, you know.
And so you have to be reallybrave to run a treatment center
and just say this is thestructure.
We believe you need relapseprevention, we believe you need
psychoeducation, we believe youneed this experiential group and
(40:16):
and make it mandatory.
Like we're, we also have ourclients unplug.
They get, you know, a half hourin the morning, an hour at
night of time to connect andSkype with their kids, which is
super important.
They need a little bit more.
We're not militant, you know,it's all.
You know common sense.
(40:37):
But no, they're unplugged allday long, and so that's the
other thing is, you know, I justthat my bully pulpit is
unplugged.
I, you know, I went to aspiritual retreat once and my
dad was in the hospital.
I was on my phone because hewas in the hospital and of
course I wouldn't do it anydifferently, but I missed the
whole spiritual retreat.
I didn't get hardly anythingout of it.
(40:58):
You can't do two things at once.
Speaker 2 (41:01):
Do you find that people have an actual withdrawal
process when they disconnectfrom technology?
Speaker 3 (41:07):
I actually think that they would.
We always believe they're goingto have more, but it is so
limited.
Once in a while, if you havesomeone coming in who has a
really true, serious technologyaddiction, you're going to see
more pushback, but it's rareYou're going to see more
pushback, but it's rare Likeit's rare.
After a day or two they likefeel so good.
(41:29):
Their anxiety is down.
Speaker 2 (41:37):
It makes such a difference.
Well, denise, I want to thankyou for for being here today and
talking a little bit aboutyourself and about milestones.
How can people find your book?
Speaker 3 (41:44):
Well, it's coming out the first of the year, so we
will have it on our website atwwwmilestonesranchcom.
And if you ever have anyquestions or need any feedback
about which you know you'regoing through and this is for
the audience it's just call818-667-9537 or 818-879-9110.
(42:11):
We have only three people whocarry the phones for 22 years.
You're not going to get a callcenter, you're going to get a
real person and we will help you.
Help you, you know, until thebook comes out.
And thank you, matt, for allyou do.
I just um.
I know we haven't known eachother real long, but I just love
your vibe and and I love yourparty records.
Speaker 2 (42:33):
Thank you.
Thank you so much.
And for those families thatwant those phone numbers again,
I will put them in the shownotes.
So please feel free to look atthe notes.
The numbers and the contactinformation will be there.
The milestones website will bethere.
Speaker 3 (42:46):
The Milestones website will be there, yay.
Speaker 1 (42:52):
Thanks again for listening to the Party Wreckers.
If you liked what you heard,please leave us a rating and a
review.
This helps us get the word outto more people, to learn more or
to ask us a question we cananswer in a future episode.
Please visit us atPartyWreckerscom and remember
(43:14):
don't enable addiction ever.
On behalf of the Party Wreckers, matt Brown and Sam Davis.
Let's talk again soon.
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