June 16, 2025 • 33 mins
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The guilt of setting boundaries. The manipulation tactics. The late-night jail calls begging for bail money. When you love someone struggling with addiction, these painful scenarios become all too familiar – and navigating them without a roadmap feels impossible.
Matt Brown, seasoned interventionist and recovering addict, pulls back the curtain on the sophisticated manipulation techniques used by those resistant to treatment. "This is a way for your son or daughter to introduce fear and doubt," Matt explains when addressing the common claim that treatment is exposing them to "more drug dealers." Instead of second-guessing your decisions, Matt provides powerful language to hold your loved one accountable while maintaining compassion.
For families wrestling with guilt over establishing boundaries, Matt offers a profound insight: that uncomfortable feeling is actually part of your healing process. Just as those in active addiction use substances to avoid difficult emotions, codependent family members enable to avoid their own feelings. When we change these patterns, suppressed emotions emerge – creating the opportunity for genuine healing and growth. If you want more substantial help for codependency, please consider one of the following workshops:
1. Terra Vista (Boise, Idaho)
2. The Bridge to Recovery (Bowling Green, KY)
3. Onsite Workshops (Nashville, TN)
Perhaps most valuable is Matt's guidance on supporting without controlling. By shifting from "you need to" statements to conversations centered on mutual goals, families can break the adversarial dynamic that fuels resistance. "When my boundaries are strong, I don't have to control anybody," Matt shares, distinguishing between unconditional love and unconditional support – which aren't mutually inclusive.
Whether you're struggling with a loved one manipulating their way out of treatment, feeling guilty about setting necessary boundaries, or facing that dreaded late-night call from jail, this episode delivers practical strategies to navigate these challenging scenarios with
Join us Every Sunday at 8:00 PM PST and Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday Night at 8:00 PM EST/5:00PST for a FREE family support group. Register at the following link to get the zoom information sent to you: Family Support Meeting
About our sponsor(s):
Intervention on Call is on online platform that allows families and support systems to get immediate coaching and direction from a professional interventionist. While a professional intervention can be a powerful experience for change, not every family needs a professionally led intervention. For families who either don't need or can't afford a professional intervention, we can help. Hour sessions are $150.
Therapy is a very important way to take care of your mental health. This can happen from the comfort of your own home or office. If you need therapy and want to get a discount on your first month of services please try Better Help.
If you want to know more about the host's private practice please visit:
Matt Brown: Freedom Interventions
Follow the host on TikTok
Matt: @mattbrowninterventionist
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the Party Wreckers podcast, hosted by
seasoned addictioninterventionist, matt Brown.
This is a podcast for familiesor individuals with loved ones
who are struggling withaddiction or alcoholism.
(00:22):
Perhaps they are reluctant toget the help that they need.
We are here to educate andentertain you while removing the
fear from the conversation.
Stick with us and we will getyou through it.
Welcome the original partywrecker, matt Brown.
(00:42):
Original Party Wrecker.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
Matt Brown.
Thank you and welcome back toanother episode of the Party
Wreckers podcast.
I am your host, matt Brown.
I am a drug and alcoholinterventionist.
I've been working with familieswho have loved ones that are
resistant to getting the helpthat they need for over 20 years
now.
I do this podcast as a way togive families some additional
(01:08):
tools to help them learn how tohave conversations in a
different way with theiraddicted loved ones and learn
how to make those conversationsas productive and hopeful as
possible.
I didn't say comfortable, but Ido want to move families
towards having really helpful,hopeful conversations.
Now, every once in a while, I'llget a list of questions
(01:31):
together that have been emailedto me or asked to me, as I've
been on in different phone callswith families through my
private practice, and I'll bringthose here and I'll answer them
with you guys here on anepisode.
And I've got four questionshere this month that I felt like
were these are common questionsand some of them very thought
provoking for me in particular,and so I thought, well, I'll
(01:51):
share them with you guys andmaybe you guys will find some
common ground here and find thatthese are some things that
you've wrestled with as well.
I was talking with a mom andshe said what do I say if my
loved one tells me that whilethey're in treatment, they're
just meeting more drug dealersand learning about doing harder
drugs?
Now I want you to, first andforemost, hear that this is a
(02:12):
very sophisticated way tomanipulate a parent, because
what it does is it introducesfear and it introduces doubt,
and it's done in a way thatcreates that fear and doubt in
the choices that you've made,because chances are, your loved
one didn't go and find their owntreatment center.
You guys were out there, youfound the treatment center, even
if they were willing to go totreatment initially.
(02:34):
Now that they're there, they'restarting to plant these seeds
of this probably isn't the rightplace for me, or I probably
need to.
You know to think about cominghome, and you should let me do
that, and one of the ways thatthey'll do that is by saying I'm
meeting so many differentpeople here who just not in
recovery.
There there's drug dealers,here there's people that are
talking about using harder drugsand I'm learning more about
(02:57):
fentanyl and methamphetaminesthan I ever wanted to know.
And and frankly, mom and dad, Ifeel like I, like I'm coming
out of here worse off than Iwent in, and if you guys have
spent any time listening to thispodcast, or even if this is
your first time in your firstepisode listening in, I want you
to know that you're talkingwith a drug dealer right now.
(03:17):
I was a guy who used to selldrugs.
I was a guy who used to dodrugs.
I would wager that none of youright now are overcome with a
strong desire to go out and gethigh right now.
If you are, give me a call, wecan talk about that.
But this is a way for your sonor your daughter to introduce
this idea that maybe mom and dadhave picked the wrong program,
(03:37):
maybe they didn't do as muchresearch in the program as they
needed to, and it's a way forthem to get you to second guess
the choices you've made, becausenow they're talking about the
environment that they're in andhow detrimental it is to their
recovery.
Here's what I suggest that yousay you know son, you know
daughter.
I want you to know that I loveyou, and it sounds to me like
(03:59):
the conversations that you'rehaving right now are really not
helpful for your sobriety.
Now I want you to know that Isee that you have some
responsibility in thoseconversations.
You know, in my life I get tochoose who I talk to and who I
don't, and what I talk about andwhat I won't talk about.
And it sounds to me like you'reat a crossroads right now in
your life where you have tostart making some of those
choices.
Now, if you are in recovery andyou want to stay in recovery, I
(04:22):
suggest you change the peoplethat you're having conversations
with.
You know, there are people inthat center that you're at right
now who want to be sober,whether they were former drug
dealers or not.
There's people there that wantto be sober.
Find the winners and go hangout with them.
If you find yourselfgravitating towards the losers
and I say that with all the lovethat I can, but if you have
(04:42):
someone that's in a treatmentcenter that doesn't want to be
sober, they're wasting theirtime.
And if they're dragging yourloved one into that conversation
, they're wasting their time too.
And what I would say is son,stop wasting your time.
If you want to be sober, besober and be around the people
there that want to be sober.
If you don't want to be sober,leave today.
You should go ahead and checkyourself out of there and figure
(05:03):
out what you want to do.
Now.
Coming home is not an option.
Addiction doesn't live in ourhome anymore, and so if you
don't complete treatment,there's really nothing more for
us to talk about until you do.
But it's up to you whether ornot you want to complete
treatment.
I love you and I really hopeyou'll choose to stay there and
I hope you'll choose to changethe kinds of conversations that
you're having there.
But I want you to know that Ihold you responsible for how you
(05:23):
spend your time.
I hold you responsible for thetypes of conversations that
you're getting engaged in, andjust because you don't like the
kind of people that are there,or you want me to not like the
kind of people that are there,doesn't mean that you don't have
an opportunity to get sober andstay sober, and I want you to
know that.
I strongly encourage you tofind a way to do that and really
allow them the opportunity tobe responsible for how they're
(05:46):
spending their time, who they'respending their time with, what
they're talking about, in theway that they spend their time.
Don't take responsibility forsomething that you have
absolutely no control over.
I have no doubt whether I wasinvolved in helping you or not.
If you chose a treatment program, there's a really good chance
that you did some research onthat.
There's a really good chancethat you looked into this.
You called a few places and youfound the one that you thought
(06:08):
your loved one was going to dobest in.
Trust that decision.
If, for whatever reason, youfind that separate from
conversations that you're havingwith your loved one, that
there's some concerns, okay,that's different.
But if your loved one is theone that's planting those seeds
of doubt, take that with a grainof salt.
Talk to the treatment center,find out what's really going on
there and don't just look at itthrough the lens that your loved
(06:30):
one is holding up to your eyes,if that makes sense.
Because as we start to getuncomfortable and as we start to
be required to look at thingsabout ourselves that we don't
want to look at, we will runfrom that experience if we can,
and we'll run in a number ofdifferent ways.
(06:51):
We're professional runners.
That's what addiction is, andso if we don't have the
chemicals to run away from andrelieve us of those feelings,
we'll find other ways todistract ourselves, and
sometimes it's getting otherpeople to co-sign behaviors and
beliefs that we don't reallywant to let go of yet, and
instead of challenging us tochange and become better.
And so that's what I wouldencourage you guys, as parents,
to really do.
And if I'm talking to a spousewho has a loved one in treatment
(07:14):
, if your husband or your wifeis in treatment right now and
they're saying the same thing, Iwould issue the same challenge
to you.
Confront them on how they'respending their time.
And when I say confront, Idon't mean in a combative way, I
really mean don't take it atface value.
Confront that and say hey, youhave some responsibility in how
this is going.
What are you going to change?
And really allow them theopportunity to see that you're
(07:37):
not going to get manipulated andyou're not going to let fear
take over how you make decisions.
Now it may be that you need toget somebody else involved in
helping you choose a treatmentprogram.
There are a number ofprofessionals, of course.
I'm going to plug IOC right nowIntervention on Call.
There's a number ofprofessionals on our platform
that can certainly help you findthe right treatment program.
Whether or not we need to helpyou do an intervention or not,
(08:00):
part of what we do is we helpfamilies find the right
treatment centers for them.
But there's outside of thatnetwork, there's a ton of people
in this industry that helpfamilies find the right
treatment placements, whetherit's an educational consultant,
whether it's a treatmentplacement consultant.
Excuse me, I've got somethingin my throat today.
You can get the help that youneed finding the right treatment
placement.
(08:20):
You know, be careful about justlooking at a website and saying,
oh, this looks good and theytake our insurance.
You know, you probably want todig a little bit deeper than
that and I the last question andanswer episode that I did.
There was a question thatsomebody had submitted about
choosing the right treatmentcenter.
If you haven't listened to thatone yet and want more
information on how to choose theright treatment center, go back
and listen to that episode.
But that's what I would sayabout that question.
(08:41):
Don't let your loved oneintroduce fear and doubt into
the equation because they'regetting uncomfortable.
All right, next question on thelist why do I feel guilty
setting boundaries?
You know this is a toughquestion because it hits so
close to the core of the problem.
Codependency and addictionreally have the same core issue
(09:03):
and that is.
I don't want to feel what I'mgoing to feel if I don't use
drugs.
I don't want to feel what I'mgoing to feel if I don't enable
this person.
I'm going to feel guilty, I'mgoing to feel ashamed.
I'm going to feel like I'm abad dad or a bad partner.
I don't want to feel like I'mnot showing up for them the way
that I know that I can, and weconvince ourselves that we're
doing this out of love and Ithink for the most part we are
(09:26):
but when we really get rightdown to it, the guilt that this
person was asking about isreally stemming from that place
of I have the ability to do thisthing for this person.
If I set this boundary, whatI'm telling them is that I'm no
longer going to do something forthem that I've been doing.
I'm no longer going to toleratea behavior that I've been
tolerating and I'm going to feelguilty that I'm changing my
(09:50):
behavior and making themuncomfortable because of the
changes that I'm making.
And I really want you to hearthat that guilt that you're
feeling is part of the healingprocess.
Just like those of us thatstruggle in active addiction,
we're going to feel a lot as webegin to change our behavior and
stop putting substances in ourbody that prevent us from
(10:13):
feeling all of these things thatwe've been trying not to feel.
And so when we change thatbehavior, a lot of those
feelings come up.
And the way that we've beendealing with these feelings is
drugs or alcohol.
And for those of us that arecodependent, we engage in
enabling behavior and that helpsquiet those feelings, it helps
distract us from those feelings.
It's not, it doesn't mean thatit's healthy, but it's a way to
(10:35):
change how we feel.
And so as we challenge thosebeliefs and as we challenge
those behaviors and start tomake those changes, those
feelings that we've beensuppressing are going to come up
.
And that's where we really canbegin the healing process.
And that's why in earlyrecovery we're often told hey,
this person needs to go totreatment, not to learn how to
not use drugs or alcohol anymore.
It's to learn how to deal withthose feelings that they've been
(10:59):
avoiding for so long.
As we begin to set boundaries.
Sometimes we need help doingthat.
Sometimes we need help andencouragement and support as we
begin to change behaviors.
Does it mean that the personwho's struggling with enabling
needs to go to treatment?
Maybe there's some really goodtreatment centers out there that
specifically deal with.
Codependency has nothing to dowith substance abuse.
(11:20):
They're not substance abusetreatment centers.
They're not licensed tosubstance abuse treatment
centers.
They are primary mental healthfacilities that deal with.
Frankly, the ones that do agood job deserve the recognition
, and so the first one that I'llthrow out there is called the
(11:46):
Bridge to Recovery and it's inBowling Green, kentucky.
They do a fantastic job.
You go there for two-weekincrements.
You can stay for up to sixweeks concurrently, but there's
modules that happen every twoweeks and this program is
phenomenal at helping somebodydeal with that.
The underlying reasons for whythe codependency is there and
(12:08):
why it takes control of thedecision making process, the way
that it does.
Another really good one that'sout there is called Onsite
Workshops.
They are in Cumberland, furnace, tennessee, just outside of
Nashville.
They do one week workshops, andthe one that I recommend for
most people is called LivingCentered, and it's a way for us
to really kind of take a look athow our decision making has
(12:30):
adapted the way that it does,how our self view, how the way
we look at ourselves and ouridentity that we give ourselves
looks the way that it does whyour relationships look the way
that they do and it has.
The purpose of it is to reallyhelp us come back to that
centered place and live fromthat centered place in our lives
, so that exterior circumstancesor external circumstances don't
(12:53):
have the same sway over us thatthey have up to this point, in
the same way that the exteriorcircumstances or the external
circumstances of addiction orcodependency have had sway over
our decision making.
The last one that I'll plug andI love this woman so much.
I've worked with her personallybut Tara Holbrook in Boise,
(13:13):
idaho, has a place called TerraVista and she also does one week
workshops and they do afantastic job.
So those are the three that Iwould say.
If you're struggling withcodependency and actually want
to unplug for a week or two andactually go do some personal
work, please look into thosethree.
I will put website addresses inthe show notes so that you can
reference these afterwards.
(13:33):
But that's why we feel theguilt that we do when we're
struggling with things like this.
Next question how do I supportmy addicted loved one without
them feeling like I'm trying tocontrol them?
Now, again, I'm going to readinto this a little bit.
This is not.
I don't have all theinformation that I would
normally have as I'm trying toanswer this question, so I'm
(13:54):
going to put my own spin on thisand hopefully this answers the
question of the person thatsubmitted this in a way that
they were hoping for.
But when we try to haveconversations with somebody,
oftentimes we're saying you needto do this or you should do
this, and when we frame thingsthat way, it does feel
controlling at times, especiallyto somebody like me who wants
to fight for control left andright, because that's the only
(14:16):
thing that I feel like I can tryto fight for.
My internal condition feels soout of control that I've got to
try to control everything aroundme, which is what led me to do
drugs and alcohol in the firstplace.
And so as you try to approachyour loved one and say, hey, I
think you need some help, I needyou to go to treatment, or you
need to go to treatment, or youshould go to treatment, the
minute we frame things that way,we are trying to impose what we
(14:38):
want on them, instead oftalking about it from a place of
.
I see that you have some needsthat aren't being met right now
and there's a way to go aboutdoing this that's very different
, and so, as we're coachingfamilies on doing their own
interventions, instead of sayingyou need to go to treatment and
make it like a very genericstatement, what I'm always
encouraging families to do isfind the solution first.
(14:59):
Find what your loved one needs,not what they're willing to do.
Hey, they're only going to bewilling to go to therapy,
they're only going to be willingto do an outpatient program,
they're not going to go toinpatient.
I don't even want to talk tothem about that, because they're
going to reject that outright.
Don't worry about that part ofthe conversation.
Look at this through the lensof what do they need?
What do they need to get thehelp that is really going to
solve this problem?
(15:19):
And if the answer to thatquestion is they need to go to
inpatient for 30 days, they needto go to inpatient for 90 days
and then into sober living andthen do outpatient.
Look at it through that lens,because what they are willing to
do is the most flexible part ofthe equation.
It's always the most flexiblepart of the equation.
How I feel, especially when I'min active addiction, changes
(15:39):
minute to minute, hour to hour,day to day.
My feelings are so completelyout of control that in the
morning I might feel like I'm ontop of the world and I've got
the world by the tail, and bymid-afternoon I'm desperate.
I have no idea how I got towhere I am and I'm miserable and
I'm scared.
And if somebody said, hey, I'dlove to offer you some help, I
(16:01):
am gonna jump at that.
And then later that night I'llbe loaded again and be back on
top of the world and thatfeeling of desperation that I
had in the middle of theafternoon is gone.
And I'm sure that some of thefamily members that I'm talking
to right now understand thatrollercoaster of just
uncontrollable ups and downs andemotion.
Then you add a mental healthcondition on top of that motion.
Then you add a mental healthcondition on top of that.
(16:22):
Whether that's anxiety ordepression or bipolar disorder
or whatever it is, the rollercoaster gets a little bit more
bumpy.
Even so, stop worrying aboutwhat they're willing to do and
look at what they need.
Now, once you've addressed that, and say, okay, well, they need
outpatient.
All right, let's find a goodoutpatient program.
They need inpatient, let's finda good inpatient program.
I would say, 99% of the time, ifsomebody's not coming to you
(16:43):
and asking for help, saying, hey, I really feel like I need to
get some help here.
I can't do this on my ownanymore.
Outpatient is generally not thebest first step Now.
Sometimes it's the only firststep.
Sometimes you've got somebodywho's the primary breadwinner of
the family.
They can't afford to take amonth off of work and go and
check themselves into atreatment center, and so
sometimes you have to look atthis from a more pragmatic
(17:05):
standpoint.
But when we're looking at thispurely from the standpoint of
what's going to give us the bestresults, I would say 99% of the
time, going to an inpatientprogram is really what you want
to start with.
If somebody's coming to you andsaying, hey, I really feel like
things are out of control hereand I really feel like I'm in a
place where I need somethingthat I'm not getting right now,
that's different.
There's already some sense ofinternal motivation there, and
(17:26):
that's when an outpatientprogram might be a little bit
more effective.
Because they're coming to thiswith some humility, they're
coming to this with somewillingness already, and that
attitude lends itself to highersuccess rates in outpatient than
when they're coming from havingthat motivation happening from
an external place, whether it'san intervention, whether it's a
(17:46):
job saying, hey, you either needto go and get some help or
you're fired, or a relationshipsaying, hey, unless you go into
treatment, we're going to haveto get divorced.
You know, there's always theseexternal circumstances.
What I say to families all thetime is everyone gets an
intervention.
Whether it's a guy wearing abadge and a gun, whether it's
somebody in a hospital thatcomes up in an emergency room
wearing a white lab coat and astethoscope around their neck,
(18:08):
whether it's a family puttingtogether an intervention in a
more formal, organized way,everybody gets an intervention.
How they respond to thatintervention can largely be
uncontrollable.
In some cases, when it becomesa legal issue, the outcome of
that is beyond most people'scontrol.
There are oftentimes legalconsequences that people no
longer can control.
(18:30):
If it's a medical intervention,sometimes there's medical
issues that are no longer goingto be controllable.
But when a family decides, hey,it's time for us to do
something, you guys are havingsome control over the outcome
that otherwise you might nothave.
If you wait for one of theseother interventions to happen
Now, you might be in a situationwhere somebody's already had a
legal intervention or trying tosupport and they're feeling like
(18:52):
you're controlling them.
Sometimes that's manipulative.
Sometimes it's just a way togaslight you into backing off
and saying, hey, all you try todo is get me into treatment.
(19:12):
This feels really controlling.
I don't want to have thisconversation.
Don't necessarily accept thatat face value.
What you do want to go into thisconversation with is saying,
hey, I'm worried about you and Ilove you, and I can see that
you're not happy.
Would you agree with me on that?
Or do you feel happy right now?
Well, no, I don't.
As a matter of fact, I'mmiserable.
I lost my job, I lost mygirlfriend.
(19:33):
My life sucks, you know, I haveno more friends, I'm broke.
I had to come back and livewith mom and dad.
You know, whatever thecircumstances are like, there's
this consistent decline, youknow, and so, most of the time,
people who are willing to behonest will say something to the
effect of no, of course I'm nothappy.
Effective no, of course I'm nothappy.
Now.
If somebody says to you well,yeah, I'm happy, life is great
(19:57):
right now, I wish you had thelife that I had Sometimes, I'll
challenge that with anotherquestion.
Tell me what you're grateful for, because happiness and
gratitude are inseparable.
So when you have somebodythat's trying to convince you
that they're happy and then youask them to give you some
insight into what they have tobe grateful for in their lives,
if that list is very superficial, then they're probably.
That's probably the depth oftheir happiness.
But if they can really say youknow what, I'm really grateful
(20:17):
for my health, I'm grateful formy family, I'm grateful for my
job, I'm grateful for all theclose friends that I have Okay,
maybe there is some gratitudethere.
Now, if they're saying thatthey're grateful for family, but
treating family like garbage,that's different.
That's very, very different.
So don't be afraid to challengethat notion, but to really
approach the conversation fromthe standpoint of I really want
to see you happy again and Iwant to see you healthy and I
(20:40):
want to see you stop struggling.
I can only imagine that youfeel the same way.
Well, yeah, mom and dad, ofcourse I do.
Okay, well, we've got an ideaand we want to talk to you about
it, and you may not like thisidea, but I need you to
understand that we feel reallystrongly about not staying
silent about this anymore.
We feel like it's time for someprofessional help to be added
into the equation here.
(21:01):
We have been doing our best as afamily to try to solve this
problem in a very amateur typeway, you know.
We've been trying to love youback into health and wellness
again.
We've been trying to love youback into being happy again, and
it just doesn't seem to beworking.
It seems like there's somethingdeeper here that we just don't
have the ability to help youwith as much as we love you and
as much as we want to help you,we just don't have the ability.
(21:22):
And so we want to put you intouch with a team of people that
are professionally trained toreally help give you the tools
that you need to get your lifeback on track, and we want you
to do this today and to reallyhelp that person understand that
number one, there's help, andnumber two, going back to the
way things have been isn't anoption anymore, and to really
understand we are now beginninga path forward.
(21:44):
You don't have to do what we'reasking you to do, but we don't
have to continue to engage inour relationship with you the
way that we have either.
In fact, we're choosing not to,and so should you choose not to
get help.
Today, we may have to look athow our relationship with you is
going to change so that we'renot enabling this anymore, so
that we're not being harmed bythis anymore.
This has caused some financialharm to us.
This has caused some emotionalharm to us.
(22:06):
We're losing sleep over this.
I'm not able to perform at workthe way that I do because of
the stress that I feel all thetime worrying about you.
A lot of responsibilities thatI have are getting neglected
because of my worry for you, andI'm not saying this to make you
feel guilty.
I'm saying this because I needyou to understand how important
you are to me, and it's becauseyou're important that I have to
concede that I don't have whatyou need right now, but I want
(22:27):
to get it for you and to reallyhave that kind of conversation.
It's not about you need to dothis.
You have to do this, you shoulddo this.
Those kinds of phrases aregoing to put you on opposite
sides of the rope, pullingagainst each other, but when you
can find a way to pull in thesame direction, I can really see
that you're struggling and Ican only imagine how hard that
is for you right now.
(22:47):
Would you like some help?
Can I help you find somehappiness and some hope in your
life, and I think I've got aplan that I want you to listen
to today.
That's very different.
That's a much less controllingkind of conversation, but you're
also setting some firmboundaries in terms of what you
are willing to do and whatyou're not willing to do anymore
, and that's not controlling.
(23:08):
Boundaries have zero to do withtrying to control another person
.
In fact, when my boundaries arestrong, I don't have to control
anybody.
When I find that I'm trying tocontrol people and that I'm
engaging in more controllingbehavior, what I'm really
learning is that my boundariessuck and that I really need to
work on my boundaries, because,instead of having healthy
(23:30):
boundaries, now I'm trying tocontrol people, and that means
that I have zero boundaries.
So when you set a boundary withsomeone, what you're telling
them is this is what I'm willingto do and this is what I'm not
willing to do.
Can you agree to that?
And once the agreement's madeand the expectations are set, I
don't have to do anything morethan let you live in the way
that you and I have agreed tolive together.
And so having healthyboundaries means that I'm not
(23:59):
going to try to control you andthat I'm not going to let you
try to control me either, or tryto let your addiction control
me, and so it's a very healthyway to set expectations in a
relationship.
So if you find that you'reconstantly trying to control
somebody, whether it's hey,we've got to get this person to
this appointment, or we've gotto get this person here or I've
got to make this phone call,I've got to make sure that you
know I get this taken care ofand that taken care of, because
they're not going to be able todo it for themselves.
All of those are actually verycontrolling behaviors.
(24:21):
It's really hard to see itsometimes because our motives
for doing it is to minimize thepain and the frustration and the
hit to the self-esteem thathappens when people fail.
But what I want to tell you isthat when we try to control
someone in that way, when we tryto rob them of the experience
that they have, even if they'regoing to fail at it, when we rob
(24:41):
them of that experience, we'rerobbing them of growth.
And so approach theseconversations with love and with
kindness, but at the same time,be very clear about what it is
you're willing to do and what itis you're not willing to do in
terms of how you're going tosupport this person going
forward, because you can lovesomebody unconditionally, but it
does not mean that you have tosupport them unconditionally.
(25:01):
Love and support are notmutually inclusive.
And with that we'll move on tothe last question here.
My son was arrested last nightand has been calling nonstop for
me to bail him out.
What do I do?
So this comes up with a fairamount of regularity.
You know, those of us thatengage in drug use in particular
, we end up in jail sometimes.
(25:21):
You know, if you end updrinking and driving, we end up
in jail sometimes and there'sconsequences.
And as soon as thoseconsequences hit, we go to that
support system to try to find away to not have to experience
those consequences.
And sometimes, when familiesstep in too soon just like I was
talking about with thisprevious question if we step in
too soon, it's not aboutteaching somebody a lesson, it's
(25:43):
not about you.
You well, I'm going to teachyou a lesson.
I'm going to leave you sittingin jail.
It's about letting them knowI'm not the janitor anymore.
My job isn't to clean up yourmess.
I'm your mom, I'm your dad, I'myour husband, I'm your wife.
Whatever the relationship is,I'm not the janitor.
In every intervention that I do,there's two people that we have
to fire, and that's the bankerand the janitor.
The banker is usually the onethat's either actually
(26:05):
financially or emotionallyfunding the messes that are
getting made, and then thejanitor is the person coming
behind and cleaning it up whilethe banker's busy funding or
financing the next mess.
Now, sometimes it's the sameperson filling both roles, but
if you find yourself in eitherof those roles whether you're a
financial banker or an emotionalbanker, or whether you're the
janitor really ask yourself okay, is this working?
(26:27):
Is this producing the resultsthat I want it to produce?
And if it's not, if your lovedone ends up in jail, you have a
perfect opportunity to be ableto say to them and this is what
I told this mom jail has a wayof softening us up to some
things that we ordinarilywouldn't be open to.
I can't tell you how many timesI've gone to a jail to pick
somebody up and take themdirectly from jail to treatment,
(26:50):
or showed up at a jail and hadthe intervention through that,
that to the glass, theplexiglass that's there in the
jail.
You know, over that, thathandheld phone, the you know the
old, you know payphone typetype hand receiver that they
have at the jails where you'retalking to each other, it
happens from time to time wherethat's where the intervention
takes, takes place, and themessage is hey, we don't want to
(27:10):
see you sit here longer thanyou need to.
So what we're willing to do ispost bail under the condition
that you go straight from hereto a treatment center and that
you're going to complete thattreatment center.
If you leave treatment early,we're going to revoke your bail
and have you sent back to jailBecause at least in here you're
safe.
You're safe from yourself,you're safe from another
overdose, you're safe from otherthings that happen in active
(27:31):
addiction.
That can't happen when you'rein a 10 by 10 sale.
So to really be able to usethat as some leverage to be able
to say I'd love to see you goto treatment and I'm willing to
post your bond if you'reagreeable to go straight from
here to jail or to treatmentrather, and complete treatment
successfully.
No-transcript jail free card,we are delaying prosecution or
(28:24):
we're working with theprosecutor to either reduce
charges or delay prosecutionpending your successful
treatment, completion oftreatment If you complete
treatment successfully, lookslike the prosecutor might be
willing to drop charges orreduce charges or at least
entertain the idea as you showback up in court after 90 days
in treatment or 30 days intreatment and say hey, your
honor, I want to takeresponsibility for what I did.
(28:46):
I had a drug and alcoholproblem.
I'm continuing to get treatmentfor that.
This is what I've done so far.
This is what I plan to continueto do and this is my plan to
stay sober going forward.
And when you have somebody thatcan show up in front of a judge
with that kind of a message,judges aren't used to that.
Judges are used to peopleshowing up trying to get out of
consequences.
Judges are used to showing upsaying, oh well, there's been a
(29:08):
mistake.
I didn't do what they said thatI do, or the cop messed up, or
I didn't do what they said thatI do, or the cop messed up, or
it's somebody else's fault.
But when somebody can say youknow what, I probably deserve to
be here.
And this is why, and this iswhat I've done to try to correct
the problem, and this is whatI'm going to do, to continue to
correct the problem, and I wouldlove some leniency.
And if you need to send me tojail, I will accept the
consequences of my actions.
(29:29):
I can't tell you how many timesa judge has heard that and said
you know what?
You've changed.
Something's different here.
There's been a positive changehere that I certainly want to
respect, and there's power inthat accountability.
And so if you have a loved one,whether you know, like this mom,
(29:49):
her son was arrested the nightbefore she sent me that email or
if you have a history ofworrying about whether or not
your loved one is going to endup in jail, consider this as the
option.
Should they end up in jail,don't be so quick to get them
out.
There's nothing catastrophicthat's going to happen in jail.
They're actually safer in jailthan they would be elsewhere out
(30:10):
doing what they were doingbefore they got arrested.
At least you know where theyare and, with a relative amount
of safety, you know like nothingbad is going to happen.
They're in jail.
They're not in there with somereally great people.
They're in there with somereally unsavory characters, but
they're, at the very least,they're safe from themselves and
their own poor decisions.
(30:30):
So consider that and really usethat as an opportunity to say,
hey, I'd love to help you out.
But here's what I need you toagree to.
And if you feel like there'ssome pushback, or if you feel
like, hey, they're going to geta little slippery and on the way
to treatment they're going totry to scoot sideways and not
actually go, you may say, hey,I'm going to talk to the
prosecutor or I'm going to haveyour court appointed attorney
talk to the prosecutor and seeif we can't work out a deal here
(30:52):
where the judge orders you tocomplete treatment at this
particular treatment program andif they're willing to do that,
then I can post your bond.
But until then, I want you toknow that I'm sorry that you've
ended up where you're at.
I hope you'll take some time toreflect on what got you there
and what you can do to changethis, and I want you to know
that I want to see you happy andsafe again.
But in the meantime I'm notgoing to be bailing you out and
(31:14):
if you're willing to get somehelp and you're willing to go
door to door, I'm not bringingyou home to pack a bag.
I'm not bringing you home tosay goodbye to your dog.
You are going straight from jailto the treatment center and it
may be a day or two before thetreatment center has a spot for
you.
I need you to understand thatI'm going to leave you sitting
in jail until that spot opens up.
Let them know that you are notafraid of them being where
they're at Because again, justlike that first question that
(31:36):
got asked.
You know I'm here in treatmentand I'm learning.
You know I'm meeting more drugdealers and I'm talking to
people that are using harderdrugs that will come up while
they're in jail.
I'm in here with a bunch ofcriminals.
I don't know what I'm going tolearn while I'm in here.
I don't know what I'm going to.
You know what's going to happento me.
They're going to plant thoseseeds of fear while they're
there.
Don't react to that.
Allow them to be uncomfortable,because that discomfort is a
(32:01):
really good catalyst for change.
And if they know that you'rewilling to let them be
uncomfortable and if they knowthat you're willing to let
yourself be uncomfortable,change can happen.
Change can happen, guys.
Thank you.
I appreciate you listening tothis episode.
I want to remind you that now,four times a week, intervention
On Call has free family Zoommeetings Every Sunday night at 8
(32:23):
pm Pacific.
We have now a dedicated WestCoast meeting at 8 pm Pacific
every Sunday.
Every Monday, wednesday andThursday at 8 pm Eastern time.
We have family support meetings.
Wednesday nights we have aspecial speaker meeting.
For the last month we've hadJason Shane talking about trauma
.
I believe he's going tocontinue that dialogue for
(32:43):
another few weeks and then we'llbring in another speaker, but
every Monday and Thursday andSunday now we have Q&A with
families where we're giving themdirect solutions and
suggestions and strategies onhow to help their addicted loved
ones.
So please join us for that.
Until then, I hope your lovedone will get sober and stay
sober.
Love you guys.
Speaker 1 (33:06):
Thanks again for listening to the Party Wreckers.
If you liked what you heard,please leave us a rating and a
review.
This helps us get the word outto more people, to learn more or
to ask us a question we cananswer in a future episode.
Please visit us atPartyWreckerscom and remember
(33:28):
don't enable addiction ever.
Welcome to the Party Wreckers podcast, hosted by
seasoned addictioninterventionist, matt Brown.
This is a podcast for familiesor individuals with loved ones
who are struggling withaddiction or alcoholism.
(00:22):
Perhaps they are reluctant toget the help that they need.
We are here to educate andentertain you while removing the
fear from the conversation.
Stick with us and we will getyou through it.
Welcome the original partywrecker, matt Brown.
(00:42):
Original Party Wrecker.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
Matt Brown.
Thank you and welcome back toanother episode of the Party
Wreckers podcast.
I am your host, matt Brown.
I am a drug and alcoholinterventionist.
I've been working with familieswho have loved ones that are
resistant to getting the helpthat they need for over 20 years
now.
I do this podcast as a way togive families some additional
(01:08):
tools to help them learn how tohave conversations in a
different way with theiraddicted loved ones and learn
how to make those conversationsas productive and hopeful as
possible.
I didn't say comfortable, but Ido want to move families
towards having really helpful,hopeful conversations.
Now, every once in a while, I'llget a list of questions
(01:31):
together that have been emailedto me or asked to me, as I've
been on in different phone callswith families through my
private practice, and I'll bringthose here and I'll answer them
with you guys here on anepisode.
And I've got four questionshere this month that I felt like
were these are common questionsand some of them very thought
provoking for me in particular,and so I thought, well, I'll
(01:51):
share them with you guys andmaybe you guys will find some
common ground here and find thatthese are some things that
you've wrestled with as well.
I was talking with a mom andshe said what do I say if my
loved one tells me that whilethey're in treatment, they're
just meeting more drug dealersand learning about doing harder
drugs?
Now I want you to, first andforemost, hear that this is a
(02:12):
very sophisticated way tomanipulate a parent, because
what it does is it introducesfear and it introduces doubt,
and it's done in a way thatcreates that fear and doubt in
the choices that you've made,because chances are, your loved
one didn't go and find their owntreatment center.
You guys were out there, youfound the treatment center, even
if they were willing to go totreatment initially.
(02:34):
Now that they're there, they'restarting to plant these seeds
of this probably isn't the rightplace for me, or I probably
need to.
You know to think about cominghome, and you should let me do
that, and one of the ways thatthey'll do that is by saying I'm
meeting so many differentpeople here who just not in
recovery.
There there's drug dealers,here there's people that are
talking about using harder drugsand I'm learning more about
(02:57):
fentanyl and methamphetaminesthan I ever wanted to know.
And and frankly, mom and dad, Ifeel like I, like I'm coming
out of here worse off than Iwent in, and if you guys have
spent any time listening to thispodcast, or even if this is
your first time in your firstepisode listening in, I want you
to know that you're talkingwith a drug dealer right now.
(03:17):
I was a guy who used to selldrugs.
I was a guy who used to dodrugs.
I would wager that none of youright now are overcome with a
strong desire to go out and gethigh right now.
If you are, give me a call, wecan talk about that.
But this is a way for your sonor your daughter to introduce
this idea that maybe mom and dadhave picked the wrong program,
(03:37):
maybe they didn't do as muchresearch in the program as they
needed to, and it's a way forthem to get you to second guess
the choices you've made, becausenow they're talking about the
environment that they're in andhow detrimental it is to their
recovery.
Here's what I suggest that yousay you know son, you know
daughter.
I want you to know that I loveyou, and it sounds to me like
(03:59):
the conversations that you'rehaving right now are really not
helpful for your sobriety.
Now I want you to know that Isee that you have some
responsibility in thoseconversations.
You know, in my life I get tochoose who I talk to and who I
don't, and what I talk about andwhat I won't talk about.
And it sounds to me like you'reat a crossroads right now in
your life where you have tostart making some of those
choices.
Now, if you are in recovery andyou want to stay in recovery, I
(04:22):
suggest you change the peoplethat you're having conversations
with.
You know, there are people inthat center that you're at right
now who want to be sober,whether they were former drug
dealers or not.
There's people there that wantto be sober.
Find the winners and go hangout with them.
If you find yourselfgravitating towards the losers
and I say that with all the lovethat I can, but if you have
(04:42):
someone that's in a treatmentcenter that doesn't want to be
sober, they're wasting theirtime.
And if they're dragging yourloved one into that conversation
, they're wasting their time too.
And what I would say is son,stop wasting your time.
If you want to be sober, besober and be around the people
there that want to be sober.
If you don't want to be sober,leave today.
You should go ahead and checkyourself out of there and figure
(05:03):
out what you want to do.
Now.
Coming home is not an option.
Addiction doesn't live in ourhome anymore, and so if you
don't complete treatment,there's really nothing more for
us to talk about until you do.
But it's up to you whether ornot you want to complete
treatment.
I love you and I really hopeyou'll choose to stay there and
I hope you'll choose to changethe kinds of conversations that
you're having there.
But I want you to know that Ihold you responsible for how you
(05:23):
spend your time.
I hold you responsible for thetypes of conversations that
you're getting engaged in, andjust because you don't like the
kind of people that are there,or you want me to not like the
kind of people that are there,doesn't mean that you don't have
an opportunity to get sober andstay sober, and I want you to
know that.
I strongly encourage you tofind a way to do that and really
allow them the opportunity tobe responsible for how they're
(05:46):
spending their time, who they'respending their time with, what
they're talking about, in theway that they spend their time.
Don't take responsibility forsomething that you have
absolutely no control over.
I have no doubt whether I wasinvolved in helping you or not.
If you chose a treatment program, there's a really good chance
that you did some research onthat.
There's a really good chancethat you looked into this.
You called a few places and youfound the one that you thought
(06:08):
your loved one was going to dobest in.
Trust that decision.
If, for whatever reason, youfind that separate from
conversations that you're havingwith your loved one, that
there's some concerns, okay,that's different.
But if your loved one is theone that's planting those seeds
of doubt, take that with a grainof salt.
Talk to the treatment center,find out what's really going on
there and don't just look at itthrough the lens that your loved
(06:30):
one is holding up to your eyes,if that makes sense.
Because as we start to getuncomfortable and as we start to
be required to look at thingsabout ourselves that we don't
want to look at, we will runfrom that experience if we can,
and we'll run in a number ofdifferent ways.
(06:51):
We're professional runners.
That's what addiction is, andso if we don't have the
chemicals to run away from andrelieve us of those feelings,
we'll find other ways todistract ourselves, and
sometimes it's getting otherpeople to co-sign behaviors and
beliefs that we don't reallywant to let go of yet, and
instead of challenging us tochange and become better.
And so that's what I wouldencourage you guys, as parents,
to really do.
And if I'm talking to a spousewho has a loved one in treatment
(07:14):
, if your husband or your wifeis in treatment right now and
they're saying the same thing, Iwould issue the same challenge
to you.
Confront them on how they'respending their time.
And when I say confront, Idon't mean in a combative way, I
really mean don't take it atface value.
Confront that and say hey, youhave some responsibility in how
this is going.
What are you going to change?
And really allow them theopportunity to see that you're
(07:37):
not going to get manipulated andyou're not going to let fear
take over how you make decisions.
Now it may be that you need toget somebody else involved in
helping you choose a treatmentprogram.
There are a number ofprofessionals, of course.
I'm going to plug IOC right nowIntervention on Call.
There's a number ofprofessionals on our platform
that can certainly help you findthe right treatment program.
Whether or not we need to helpyou do an intervention or not,
(08:00):
part of what we do is we helpfamilies find the right
treatment centers for them.
But there's outside of thatnetwork, there's a ton of people
in this industry that helpfamilies find the right
treatment placements, whetherit's an educational consultant,
whether it's a treatmentplacement consultant.
Excuse me, I've got somethingin my throat today.
You can get the help that youneed finding the right treatment
placement.
(08:20):
You know, be careful about justlooking at a website and saying,
oh, this looks good and theytake our insurance.
You know, you probably want todig a little bit deeper than
that and I the last question andanswer episode that I did.
There was a question thatsomebody had submitted about
choosing the right treatmentcenter.
If you haven't listened to thatone yet and want more
information on how to choose theright treatment center, go back
and listen to that episode.
But that's what I would sayabout that question.
(08:41):
Don't let your loved oneintroduce fear and doubt into
the equation because they'regetting uncomfortable.
All right, next question on thelist why do I feel guilty
setting boundaries?
You know this is a toughquestion because it hits so
close to the core of the problem.
Codependency and addictionreally have the same core issue
(09:03):
and that is.
I don't want to feel what I'mgoing to feel if I don't use
drugs.
I don't want to feel what I'mgoing to feel if I don't enable
this person.
I'm going to feel guilty, I'mgoing to feel ashamed.
I'm going to feel like I'm abad dad or a bad partner.
I don't want to feel like I'mnot showing up for them the way
that I know that I can, and weconvince ourselves that we're
doing this out of love and Ithink for the most part we are
(09:26):
but when we really get rightdown to it, the guilt that this
person was asking about isreally stemming from that place
of I have the ability to do thisthing for this person.
If I set this boundary, whatI'm telling them is that I'm no
longer going to do something forthem that I've been doing.
I'm no longer going to toleratea behavior that I've been
tolerating and I'm going to feelguilty that I'm changing my
(09:50):
behavior and making themuncomfortable because of the
changes that I'm making.
And I really want you to hearthat that guilt that you're
feeling is part of the healingprocess.
Just like those of us thatstruggle in active addiction,
we're going to feel a lot as webegin to change our behavior and
stop putting substances in ourbody that prevent us from
(10:13):
feeling all of these things thatwe've been trying not to feel.
And so when we change thatbehavior, a lot of those
feelings come up.
And the way that we've beendealing with these feelings is
drugs or alcohol.
And for those of us that arecodependent, we engage in
enabling behavior and that helpsquiet those feelings, it helps
distract us from those feelings.
It's not, it doesn't mean thatit's healthy, but it's a way to
(10:35):
change how we feel.
And so as we challenge thosebeliefs and as we challenge
those behaviors and start tomake those changes, those
feelings that we've beensuppressing are going to come up
.
And that's where we really canbegin the healing process.
And that's why in earlyrecovery we're often told hey,
this person needs to go totreatment, not to learn how to
not use drugs or alcohol anymore.
It's to learn how to deal withthose feelings that they've been
(10:59):
avoiding for so long.
As we begin to set boundaries.
Sometimes we need help doingthat.
Sometimes we need help andencouragement and support as we
begin to change behaviors.
Does it mean that the personwho's struggling with enabling
needs to go to treatment?
Maybe there's some really goodtreatment centers out there that
specifically deal with.
Codependency has nothing to dowith substance abuse.
(11:20):
They're not substance abusetreatment centers.
They're not licensed tosubstance abuse treatment
centers.
They are primary mental healthfacilities that deal with.
Frankly, the ones that do agood job deserve the recognition
, and so the first one that I'llthrow out there is called the
(11:46):
Bridge to Recovery and it's inBowling Green, kentucky.
They do a fantastic job.
You go there for two-weekincrements.
You can stay for up to sixweeks concurrently, but there's
modules that happen every twoweeks and this program is
phenomenal at helping somebodydeal with that.
The underlying reasons for whythe codependency is there and
(12:08):
why it takes control of thedecision making process, the way
that it does.
Another really good one that'sout there is called Onsite
Workshops.
They are in Cumberland, furnace, tennessee, just outside of
Nashville.
They do one week workshops, andthe one that I recommend for
most people is called LivingCentered, and it's a way for us
to really kind of take a look athow our decision making has
(12:30):
adapted the way that it does,how our self view, how the way
we look at ourselves and ouridentity that we give ourselves
looks the way that it does whyour relationships look the way
that they do and it has.
The purpose of it is to reallyhelp us come back to that
centered place and live fromthat centered place in our lives
, so that exterior circumstancesor external circumstances don't
(12:53):
have the same sway over us thatthey have up to this point, in
the same way that the exteriorcircumstances or the external
circumstances of addiction orcodependency have had sway over
our decision making.
The last one that I'll plug andI love this woman so much.
I've worked with her personallybut Tara Holbrook in Boise,
(13:13):
idaho, has a place called TerraVista and she also does one week
workshops and they do afantastic job.
So those are the three that Iwould say.
If you're struggling withcodependency and actually want
to unplug for a week or two andactually go do some personal
work, please look into thosethree.
I will put website addresses inthe show notes so that you can
reference these afterwards.
(13:33):
But that's why we feel theguilt that we do when we're
struggling with things like this.
Next question how do I supportmy addicted loved one without
them feeling like I'm trying tocontrol them?
Now, again, I'm going to readinto this a little bit.
This is not.
I don't have all theinformation that I would
normally have as I'm trying toanswer this question, so I'm
(13:54):
going to put my own spin on thisand hopefully this answers the
question of the person thatsubmitted this in a way that
they were hoping for.
But when we try to haveconversations with somebody,
oftentimes we're saying you needto do this or you should do
this, and when we frame thingsthat way, it does feel
controlling at times, especiallyto somebody like me who wants
to fight for control left andright, because that's the only
(14:16):
thing that I feel like I can tryto fight for.
My internal condition feels soout of control that I've got to
try to control everything aroundme, which is what led me to do
drugs and alcohol in the firstplace.
And so as you try to approachyour loved one and say, hey, I
think you need some help, I needyou to go to treatment, or you
need to go to treatment, or youshould go to treatment, the
minute we frame things that way,we are trying to impose what we
(14:38):
want on them, instead oftalking about it from a place of
.
I see that you have some needsthat aren't being met right now
and there's a way to go aboutdoing this that's very different
, and so, as we're coachingfamilies on doing their own
interventions, instead of sayingyou need to go to treatment and
make it like a very genericstatement, what I'm always
encouraging families to do isfind the solution first.
(14:59):
Find what your loved one needs,not what they're willing to do.
Hey, they're only going to bewilling to go to therapy,
they're only going to be willingto do an outpatient program,
they're not going to go toinpatient.
I don't even want to talk tothem about that, because they're
going to reject that outright.
Don't worry about that part ofthe conversation.
Look at this through the lensof what do they need?
What do they need to get thehelp that is really going to
solve this problem?
(15:19):
And if the answer to thatquestion is they need to go to
inpatient for 30 days, they needto go to inpatient for 90 days
and then into sober living andthen do outpatient.
Look at it through that lens,because what they are willing to
do is the most flexible part ofthe equation.
It's always the most flexiblepart of the equation.
How I feel, especially when I'min active addiction, changes
(15:39):
minute to minute, hour to hour,day to day.
My feelings are so completelyout of control that in the
morning I might feel like I'm ontop of the world and I've got
the world by the tail, and bymid-afternoon I'm desperate.
I have no idea how I got towhere I am and I'm miserable and
I'm scared.
And if somebody said, hey, I'dlove to offer you some help, I
(16:01):
am gonna jump at that.
And then later that night I'llbe loaded again and be back on
top of the world and thatfeeling of desperation that I
had in the middle of theafternoon is gone.
And I'm sure that some of thefamily members that I'm talking
to right now understand thatrollercoaster of just
uncontrollable ups and downs andemotion.
Then you add a mental healthcondition on top of that motion.
Then you add a mental healthcondition on top of that.
(16:22):
Whether that's anxiety ordepression or bipolar disorder
or whatever it is, the rollercoaster gets a little bit more
bumpy.
Even so, stop worrying aboutwhat they're willing to do and
look at what they need.
Now, once you've addressed that, and say, okay, well, they need
outpatient.
All right, let's find a goodoutpatient program.
They need inpatient, let's finda good inpatient program.
I would say, 99% of the time, ifsomebody's not coming to you
(16:43):
and asking for help, saying, hey, I really feel like I need to
get some help here.
I can't do this on my ownanymore.
Outpatient is generally not thebest first step Now.
Sometimes it's the only firststep.
Sometimes you've got somebodywho's the primary breadwinner of
the family.
They can't afford to take amonth off of work and go and
check themselves into atreatment center, and so
sometimes you have to look atthis from a more pragmatic
(17:05):
standpoint.
But when we're looking at thispurely from the standpoint of
what's going to give us the bestresults, I would say 99% of the
time, going to an inpatientprogram is really what you want
to start with.
If somebody's coming to you andsaying, hey, I really feel like
things are out of control hereand I really feel like I'm in a
place where I need somethingthat I'm not getting right now,
that's different.
There's already some sense ofinternal motivation there, and
(17:26):
that's when an outpatientprogram might be a little bit
more effective.
Because they're coming to thiswith some humility, they're
coming to this with somewillingness already, and that
attitude lends itself to highersuccess rates in outpatient than
when they're coming from havingthat motivation happening from
an external place, whether it'san intervention, whether it's a
(17:46):
job saying, hey, you either needto go and get some help or
you're fired, or a relationshipsaying, hey, unless you go into
treatment, we're going to haveto get divorced.
You know, there's always theseexternal circumstances.
What I say to families all thetime is everyone gets an
intervention.
Whether it's a guy wearing abadge and a gun, whether it's
somebody in a hospital thatcomes up in an emergency room
wearing a white lab coat and astethoscope around their neck,
(18:08):
whether it's a family puttingtogether an intervention in a
more formal, organized way,everybody gets an intervention.
How they respond to thatintervention can largely be
uncontrollable.
In some cases, when it becomesa legal issue, the outcome of
that is beyond most people'scontrol.
There are oftentimes legalconsequences that people no
longer can control.
(18:30):
If it's a medical intervention,sometimes there's medical
issues that are no longer goingto be controllable.
But when a family decides, hey,it's time for us to do
something, you guys are havingsome control over the outcome
that otherwise you might nothave.
If you wait for one of theseother interventions to happen
Now, you might be in a situationwhere somebody's already had a
legal intervention or trying tosupport and they're feeling like
(18:52):
you're controlling them.
Sometimes that's manipulative.
Sometimes it's just a way togaslight you into backing off
and saying, hey, all you try todo is get me into treatment.
(19:12):
This feels really controlling.
I don't want to have thisconversation.
Don't necessarily accept thatat face value.
What you do want to go into thisconversation with is saying,
hey, I'm worried about you and Ilove you, and I can see that
you're not happy.
Would you agree with me on that?
Or do you feel happy right now?
Well, no, I don't.
As a matter of fact, I'mmiserable.
I lost my job, I lost mygirlfriend.
(19:33):
My life sucks, you know, I haveno more friends, I'm broke.
I had to come back and livewith mom and dad.
You know, whatever thecircumstances are like, there's
this consistent decline, youknow, and so, most of the time,
people who are willing to behonest will say something to the
effect of no, of course I'm nothappy.
Effective no, of course I'm nothappy.
Now.
If somebody says to you well,yeah, I'm happy, life is great
(19:57):
right now, I wish you had thelife that I had Sometimes, I'll
challenge that with anotherquestion.
Tell me what you're grateful for, because happiness and
gratitude are inseparable.
So when you have somebodythat's trying to convince you
that they're happy and then youask them to give you some
insight into what they have tobe grateful for in their lives,
if that list is very superficial, then they're probably.
That's probably the depth oftheir happiness.
But if they can really say youknow what, I'm really grateful
(20:17):
for my health, I'm grateful formy family, I'm grateful for my
job, I'm grateful for all theclose friends that I have Okay,
maybe there is some gratitudethere.
Now, if they're saying thatthey're grateful for family, but
treating family like garbage,that's different.
That's very, very different.
So don't be afraid to challengethat notion, but to really
approach the conversation fromthe standpoint of I really want
to see you happy again and Iwant to see you healthy and I
(20:40):
want to see you stop struggling.
I can only imagine that youfeel the same way.
Well, yeah, mom and dad, ofcourse I do.
Okay, well, we've got an ideaand we want to talk to you about
it, and you may not like thisidea, but I need you to
understand that we feel reallystrongly about not staying
silent about this anymore.
We feel like it's time for someprofessional help to be added
into the equation here.
(21:01):
We have been doing our best as afamily to try to solve this
problem in a very amateur typeway, you know.
We've been trying to love youback into health and wellness
again.
We've been trying to love youback into being happy again, and
it just doesn't seem to beworking.
It seems like there's somethingdeeper here that we just don't
have the ability to help youwith as much as we love you and
as much as we want to help you,we just don't have the ability.
(21:22):
And so we want to put you intouch with a team of people that
are professionally trained toreally help give you the tools
that you need to get your lifeback on track, and we want you
to do this today and to reallyhelp that person understand that
number one, there's help, andnumber two, going back to the
way things have been isn't anoption anymore, and to really
understand we are now beginninga path forward.
(21:44):
You don't have to do what we'reasking you to do, but we don't
have to continue to engage inour relationship with you the
way that we have either.
In fact, we're choosing not to,and so should you choose not to
get help.
Today, we may have to look athow our relationship with you is
going to change so that we'renot enabling this anymore, so
that we're not being harmed bythis anymore.
This has caused some financialharm to us.
This has caused some emotionalharm to us.
(22:06):
We're losing sleep over this.
I'm not able to perform at workthe way that I do because of
the stress that I feel all thetime worrying about you.
A lot of responsibilities thatI have are getting neglected
because of my worry for you, andI'm not saying this to make you
feel guilty.
I'm saying this because I needyou to understand how important
you are to me, and it's becauseyou're important that I have to
concede that I don't have whatyou need right now, but I want
(22:27):
to get it for you and to reallyhave that kind of conversation.
It's not about you need to dothis.
You have to do this, you shoulddo this.
Those kinds of phrases aregoing to put you on opposite
sides of the rope, pullingagainst each other, but when you
can find a way to pull in thesame direction, I can really see
that you're struggling and Ican only imagine how hard that
is for you right now.
(22:47):
Would you like some help?
Can I help you find somehappiness and some hope in your
life, and I think I've got aplan that I want you to listen
to today.
That's very different.
That's a much less controllingkind of conversation, but you're
also setting some firmboundaries in terms of what you
are willing to do and whatyou're not willing to do anymore
, and that's not controlling.
(23:08):
Boundaries have zero to do withtrying to control another person
.
In fact, when my boundaries arestrong, I don't have to control
anybody.
When I find that I'm trying tocontrol people and that I'm
engaging in more controllingbehavior, what I'm really
learning is that my boundariessuck and that I really need to
work on my boundaries, because,instead of having healthy
(23:30):
boundaries, now I'm trying tocontrol people, and that means
that I have zero boundaries.
So when you set a boundary withsomeone, what you're telling
them is this is what I'm willingto do and this is what I'm not
willing to do.
Can you agree to that?
And once the agreement's madeand the expectations are set, I
don't have to do anything morethan let you live in the way
that you and I have agreed tolive together.
And so having healthyboundaries means that I'm not
(23:59):
going to try to control you andthat I'm not going to let you
try to control me either, or tryto let your addiction control
me, and so it's a very healthyway to set expectations in a
relationship.
So if you find that you'reconstantly trying to control
somebody, whether it's hey,we've got to get this person to
this appointment, or we've gotto get this person here or I've
got to make this phone call,I've got to make sure that you
know I get this taken care ofand that taken care of, because
they're not going to be able todo it for themselves.
All of those are actually verycontrolling behaviors.
(24:21):
It's really hard to see itsometimes because our motives
for doing it is to minimize thepain and the frustration and the
hit to the self-esteem thathappens when people fail.
But what I want to tell you isthat when we try to control
someone in that way, when we tryto rob them of the experience
that they have, even if they'regoing to fail at it, when we rob
(24:41):
them of that experience, we'rerobbing them of growth.
And so approach theseconversations with love and with
kindness, but at the same time,be very clear about what it is
you're willing to do and what itis you're not willing to do in
terms of how you're going tosupport this person going
forward, because you can lovesomebody unconditionally, but it
does not mean that you have tosupport them unconditionally.
(25:01):
Love and support are notmutually inclusive.
And with that we'll move on tothe last question here.
My son was arrested last nightand has been calling nonstop for
me to bail him out.
What do I do?
So this comes up with a fairamount of regularity.
You know, those of us thatengage in drug use in particular
, we end up in jail sometimes.
(25:21):
You know, if you end updrinking and driving, we end up
in jail sometimes and there'sconsequences.
And as soon as thoseconsequences hit, we go to that
support system to try to find away to not have to experience
those consequences.
And sometimes, when familiesstep in too soon just like I was
talking about with thisprevious question if we step in
too soon, it's not aboutteaching somebody a lesson, it's
(25:43):
not about you.
You well, I'm going to teachyou a lesson.
I'm going to leave you sittingin jail.
It's about letting them knowI'm not the janitor anymore.
My job isn't to clean up yourmess.
I'm your mom, I'm your dad, I'myour husband, I'm your wife.
Whatever the relationship is,I'm not the janitor.
In every intervention that I do,there's two people that we have
to fire, and that's the bankerand the janitor.
The banker is usually the onethat's either actually
(26:05):
financially or emotionallyfunding the messes that are
getting made, and then thejanitor is the person coming
behind and cleaning it up whilethe banker's busy funding or
financing the next mess.
Now, sometimes it's the sameperson filling both roles, but
if you find yourself in eitherof those roles whether you're a
financial banker or an emotionalbanker, or whether you're the
janitor really ask yourself okay, is this working?
(26:27):
Is this producing the resultsthat I want it to produce?
And if it's not, if your lovedone ends up in jail, you have a
perfect opportunity to be ableto say to them and this is what
I told this mom jail has a wayof softening us up to some
things that we ordinarilywouldn't be open to.
I can't tell you how many timesI've gone to a jail to pick
somebody up and take themdirectly from jail to treatment,
(26:50):
or showed up at a jail and hadthe intervention through that,
that to the glass, theplexiglass that's there in the
jail.
You know, over that, thathandheld phone, the you know the
old, you know payphone typetype hand receiver that they
have at the jails where you'retalking to each other, it
happens from time to time wherethat's where the intervention
takes, takes place, and themessage is hey, we don't want to
(27:10):
see you sit here longer thanyou need to.
So what we're willing to do ispost bail under the condition
that you go straight from hereto a treatment center and that
you're going to complete thattreatment center.
If you leave treatment early,we're going to revoke your bail
and have you sent back to jailBecause at least in here you're
safe.
You're safe from yourself,you're safe from another
overdose, you're safe from otherthings that happen in active
(27:31):
addiction.
That can't happen when you'rein a 10 by 10 sale.
So to really be able to usethat as some leverage to be able
to say I'd love to see you goto treatment and I'm willing to
post your bond if you'reagreeable to go straight from
here to jail or to treatmentrather, and complete treatment
successfully.
No-transcript jail free card,we are delaying prosecution or
(28:24):
we're working with theprosecutor to either reduce
charges or delay prosecutionpending your successful
treatment, completion oftreatment If you complete
treatment successfully, lookslike the prosecutor might be
willing to drop charges orreduce charges or at least
entertain the idea as you showback up in court after 90 days
in treatment or 30 days intreatment and say hey, your
honor, I want to takeresponsibility for what I did.
(28:46):
I had a drug and alcoholproblem.
I'm continuing to get treatmentfor that.
This is what I've done so far.
This is what I plan to continueto do and this is my plan to
stay sober going forward.
And when you have somebody thatcan show up in front of a judge
with that kind of a message,judges aren't used to that.
Judges are used to peopleshowing up trying to get out of
consequences.
Judges are used to showing upsaying, oh well, there's been a
(29:08):
mistake.
I didn't do what they said thatI do, or the cop messed up, or
I didn't do what they said thatI do, or the cop messed up, or
it's somebody else's fault.
But when somebody can say youknow what, I probably deserve to
be here.
And this is why, and this iswhat I've done to try to correct
the problem, and this is whatI'm going to do, to continue to
correct the problem, and I wouldlove some leniency.
And if you need to send me tojail, I will accept the
consequences of my actions.
(29:29):
I can't tell you how many timesa judge has heard that and said
you know what?
You've changed.
Something's different here.
There's been a positive changehere that I certainly want to
respect, and there's power inthat accountability.
And so if you have a loved one,whether you know, like this mom,
(29:49):
her son was arrested the nightbefore she sent me that email or
if you have a history ofworrying about whether or not
your loved one is going to endup in jail, consider this as the
option.
Should they end up in jail,don't be so quick to get them
out.
There's nothing catastrophicthat's going to happen in jail.
They're actually safer in jailthan they would be elsewhere out
(30:10):
doing what they were doingbefore they got arrested.
At least you know where theyare and, with a relative amount
of safety, you know like nothingbad is going to happen.
They're in jail.
They're not in there with somereally great people.
They're in there with somereally unsavory characters, but
they're, at the very least,they're safe from themselves and
their own poor decisions.
(30:30):
So consider that and really usethat as an opportunity to say,
hey, I'd love to help you out.
But here's what I need you toagree to.
And if you feel like there'ssome pushback, or if you feel
like, hey, they're going to geta little slippery and on the way
to treatment they're going totry to scoot sideways and not
actually go, you may say, hey,I'm going to talk to the
prosecutor or I'm going to haveyour court appointed attorney
talk to the prosecutor and seeif we can't work out a deal here
(30:52):
where the judge orders you tocomplete treatment at this
particular treatment program andif they're willing to do that,
then I can post your bond.
But until then, I want you toknow that I'm sorry that you've
ended up where you're at.
I hope you'll take some time toreflect on what got you there
and what you can do to changethis, and I want you to know
that I want to see you happy andsafe again.
But in the meantime I'm notgoing to be bailing you out and
(31:14):
if you're willing to get somehelp and you're willing to go
door to door, I'm not bringingyou home to pack a bag.
I'm not bringing you home tosay goodbye to your dog.
You are going straight from jailto the treatment center and it
may be a day or two before thetreatment center has a spot for
you.
I need you to understand thatI'm going to leave you sitting
in jail until that spot opens up.
Let them know that you are notafraid of them being where
they're at Because again, justlike that first question that
(31:36):
got asked.
You know I'm here in treatmentand I'm learning.
You know I'm meeting more drugdealers and I'm talking to
people that are using harderdrugs that will come up while
they're in jail.
I'm in here with a bunch ofcriminals.
I don't know what I'm going tolearn while I'm in here.
I don't know what I'm going to.
You know what's going to happento me.
They're going to plant thoseseeds of fear while they're
there.
Don't react to that.
Allow them to be uncomfortable,because that discomfort is a
(32:01):
really good catalyst for change.
And if they know that you'rewilling to let them be
uncomfortable and if they knowthat you're willing to let
yourself be uncomfortable,change can happen.
Change can happen, guys.
Thank you.
I appreciate you listening tothis episode.
I want to remind you that now,four times a week, intervention
On Call has free family Zoommeetings Every Sunday night at 8
(32:23):
pm Pacific.
We have now a dedicated WestCoast meeting at 8 pm Pacific
every Sunday.
Every Monday, wednesday andThursday at 8 pm Eastern time.
We have family support meetings.
Wednesday nights we have aspecial speaker meeting.
For the last month we've hadJason Shane talking about trauma
.
I believe he's going tocontinue that dialogue for
(32:43):
another few weeks and then we'llbring in another speaker, but
every Monday and Thursday andSunday now we have Q&A with
families where we're giving themdirect solutions and
suggestions and strategies onhow to help their addicted loved
ones.
So please join us for that.
Until then, I hope your lovedone will get sober and stay
sober.
Love you guys.
Speaker 1 (33:06):
Thanks again for listening to the Party Wreckers.
If you liked what you heard,please leave us a rating and a
review.
This helps us get the word outto more people, to learn more or
to ask us a question we cananswer in a future episode.
Please visit us atPartyWreckerscom and remember
(33:28):
don't enable addiction ever.
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