April 25, 2025 • 52 mins
My old mate Professor Grant Schofield and I delve into the fascinating concept of hormesis and its impact on human health. We discuss the newly launched Hormesis Lab and explore how controlled exposure to stressors can enhance resilience and promote longevity. From the hormonal effects of light exposure to the physiological benefits of exercise, this conversation uncovers the science behind becoming robust through strategic stress.
What You'll Learn:
Understanding Hormesis:
Hormesis is the process of exposing your body to mild stressors to increase its resilience against future stress.
Light and the Body:
Discover how different types of light, including visible and non-visible wavelengths, penetrate the body and impact health.
Learn about the role of vitamin D in glucose homeostasis and immune function, and why it’s essential for overall well-being.
Exercise as a Hermetic Stressor:
Explore how exercise functions as a stressor and boosts longevity, with a focus on VO2 max and muscle strength.
Understand the physiological mechanisms activated during exercise, like myokines and their widespread health benefits.
Effective Training Techniques:
Zone 2 and VO2 max training methods are explained for optimising cardiovascular health and enhancing endurance.
Strength and resistance training guidelines are provided to improve muscle mass and overall functionality.
Nutritional Importance:
The importance of protein intake is highlighted, particularly in maintaining muscle mass and facilitating recovery and growth.
Key Takeaways:
- Hormetic Stress: Leveraging mild stress can build resilience and improve health outcomes.
- Light Exposure: Adequate light, particularly in the infrared spectrum, can support mitochondrial health and potentially aid in neurodegenerative conditions.
- Exercise Strategy: A balanced exercise routine, incorporating both aerobic and strength training, is crucial for long-term health.
- Protein Needs: As you age, higher protein intake is necessary to compensate for the natural decline in muscle mass and synthesis.
- Role of Hormesis in Longevity: Understanding and applying hormesis can be a transformative approach to improving health and longevity.
Resources:
For more in-depth information and resources, including links to studies and equipment recommendations discussed in the podcast, be sure to check out the notes provided. Stay informed about innovative approaches to enhancing health and unlocking your potential through hormesis.
Support and Share:
If you found this episode enlightening, please consider subscribing, rating, and leaving a review on your favourite podcast platform. Your support helps us continue to bring expert insights to a wider audience. Share this episode with someone who might benefit from the discussion around hormesis and its life-enhancing potential.
01:08 Understanding Hormesis
03:13 Stoic Quotes and Hormesis
03:58 The Importance of Stress Resistance
06:31 Light and Its Effects on Health
07:12 Vitamin D and Sun Exposure
11:49 Infrared Light and Mitochondrial Health
15:19 Melanin and Brain Health
22:56 Exercise and Longevity
28:27 Understanding VO2 and Training History
29:30 The Role of Muscle Strength in Longevity
29:56 Hormetic Mechanisms and Myokines
33:16 Practical Training Guidelines
33:54 Zone 2 and High-Intensity Training
40:27 Strength Training for Longevity
45:54 The Importance of Protein Intake
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Prof Grant, Welcome back to the podcast. I think this
is four or five.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
My favorite podcast with my favorite podcast in good Night.
Speaker 3 (00:18):
So yeah, thanks having me better.
Speaker 4 (00:20):
Yeah, we are going to talk all things hormesis right now,
just for the listeners.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
And I'm very excited about this.
Speaker 4 (00:29):
I emailed you a few months back and said, I've
just been thinking about life in general, and I'm kind
of at the fears of my life that i.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
Want to be doing cool shit with people.
Speaker 4 (00:44):
That I really like and admire. And I said to you,
how about we create a lab called the hormesas Lab,
because we're both big on this and you already run
a lab, and you said, yes, so we are.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
This is the I guess the official.
Speaker 4 (01:00):
Announcement of the launch of the Hormesis Lab or We're
going to be doing a whole heap of research on
hormesis and the benefits for human health. But just for
our listeners, can you give us the kind of broad
overview of what hormesis is.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
Yeah, well, first of all, it's an exciting announcement, Paul,
you know, really driven by your energy, so thank you
for doing that. I guess homesos, you know, suffering some
biological stress and addiction to that is interesting, but I
think there's a bigger picture of that, And so homesis
(01:40):
makes you a more robust.
Speaker 3 (01:42):
Version of yourself. Whether it's.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
Light, or it's exercise, or it's some of the slightly
toxic photochemicals polyphyin ours or.
Speaker 3 (01:54):
Whatever, there's a whole batch of them.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
We'll talk about us today. Why do you want to
be robust in the first place. And the reason you
want to be robust is that living a good life
means that you're going to suffer insults, stress, and really
biologically speaking, you want to return yourself back to your
normal homeostatus. So the body's ability and when I say body,
(02:18):
I include the brain, the mind, and everything, and that
it's ability to return itself to that sort of tightly
controlled area that it thrives at is central to everything
and you can either have it return thereby I don't know,
lying in bed. But the trouble with that is that
(02:38):
you're down grade.
Speaker 3 (02:41):
The body's not.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
Going to waste resources on things news, so then you
can't do anything other than stay in bed. So if
you want to actually get out and about in the
real world, you're going to have to constantly suffer these
insults and be robust enough to do them. And of
course we were finally tuned to do that evolutionary, but
we haven't any capability to do that once you start
to air on the perials of modern life. So we
(03:04):
need to actively seek out these things now and understand
them and understand the science behind it.
Speaker 3 (03:09):
So that's really hell I think about it.
Speaker 4 (03:13):
Yeah, I actually thought it was as we were talking
about that. I think we could have a quote for
the Hermesis Lab.
Speaker 1 (03:21):
There's two stoic quotes that the obvious one, right.
Speaker 4 (03:24):
Is is that what does not kill us makes us stronger. Right,
that's the obvious one for their Mesas lab. But I
think there's a couple of quotes that sprung to my
epicthetis is we must all undergo a hard winter training
and not enter into lightly that for which we have
not prepared, right.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
And he was talking about life.
Speaker 3 (03:44):
So that, yeah, that's closer to the en.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
Of it, I think absolutely.
Speaker 4 (03:50):
And then a little subtext from Seneca unimpowered good fortune
cannot withstand.
Speaker 1 (03:55):
A single blow.
Speaker 4 (03:58):
Yeah, but it's it's all about this idea that hormesis,
so exposure to stressors or toxins that at high levels
can kill you, but at low to moderate levels, particularly intermittently,
into stress resistance. And and this is really the crux
(04:18):
of all of these hormetic pathways are hermetic activators that
we're going to talk about.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
So and then stress resistance meaning that you can get better,
better normal normal range of function in homeosizes more quickly.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
Yeah, and actually moving beyond that.
Speaker 4 (04:38):
So for me, hormetic stressors drive super compensation. You know,
if we think of Selly's model, and and and I
recently read a paper where they talked about and they
used the Latin terms and it was, you know, getting
back to normal eustasis. So they they called it when
(04:59):
stress load you overload you.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
They call that cacastasis.
Speaker 4 (05:04):
So it's basically a breakdown of of your of your equilibrium.
And then they talked about hyperstasis, which is an elevated state.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
And that's really what we're all about with the hormesis lab.
Speaker 4 (05:18):
Is not just about resilience and getting back to homeostasis,
but how can you make yourself more robust, increase your
stress resistance because of deliberate exposure to certain amount of
stressors or toxins, which at high levels can kill you
but we're after the stress resistance, right, yeah, And I.
Speaker 3 (05:41):
Think you know, we see the physical aspects of that
quite plainly. Everyone does. I think about you know, strength,
you've got a relativity stuff. Yes, in endurance, you've got to.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
Stemini, you've got to actually go out there and do network.
But in the psychological realm, I think it's equally, if
not more important, And it's a discussion that we're not
having a society at all. And I mean the sort
of clown like behavior of policymakers undergoing you know, keep
people safe and removing them from stress to help their
(06:14):
mental health is an extraordinary thing to be doing when
it is actually likely to be the very problem in
the first place.
Speaker 4 (06:23):
Absolutely, and hey, there's going to let's do a podcast
on that, actually, because I think there's an entire podcast
on that.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
But let's talk about that.
Speaker 4 (06:32):
I mean, the really obvious one is exercise. But before
we get into exercise, let's talk about late.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
Well. I think light has just the more you go
down that rabbit hole that you're more of, you're fascinated.
And I think people are well aware that light penetrates
to the body, and they might not know that depending
on the wavelength of that lightness. Because it's visible and
non visible, it penetrates some different and the most obvious,
(07:02):
well known one is the blue wavelength light that's in
that midday sun and whatnot, and so that has a
couple of effects of the festival. We're well aware of
its effect on metaltonin and you know, the sort of
sleepiness woman, and so it's not talking about that too much.
The second thing is it's hitting in that first layer
(07:24):
or two of the skin, and it's hitting cholesterol and
it's splitting that into the active form of vitamin D.
Speaker 3 (07:35):
And that's a crucial part of normal ability to.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
Get glucose homeore status because it's involved in gluco transport,
but it's also in sort of immune system function and robustness.
It's massive, and I think it's the most overlooked thing,
and I think there's a few subtleties that it's just
coming to my mind at the moment of around that.
First of all, there is an optimal point beyond which
(08:04):
you can actually deplete vitamin D. So once you start
to get some reddening of the skin, that that effect
is now counter productive. So she's now depleting, and so
that's something to think about when you're out in the sun.
Speaker 4 (08:17):
So are you saying that when you start to when
you start, your skin starts to burn and then negatively
impacts fitnamin D synthesis.
Speaker 3 (08:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
Yeah, And there's an interaction there with blood glucose as well,
So the higher glucose is.
Speaker 3 (08:28):
The more quickly you get that effect. And that's the thing.
The second is that there's a much stronger age effect
in your ability to do this from the sun than
you think. And then she wants you to start to
get our age four.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
It's going to become more and more difficult when you're
living in places like Melbourne and Auckland in the winter.
And you know, then if you're thinking about supplementation, I
actually think that is actually a reasonable thing to think about.
Speaker 3 (09:00):
Don't either that or just booking some atheists nurser or something.
Speaker 4 (09:04):
Uh uh.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
So there's that's so there's a you know, there's a
strong out effect. There's obviously skinned darkness effects. So if
you're dark skinned, you're getting old and you're living in
a philly, temperate climate, you're going to have to really
max some effort.
Speaker 3 (09:20):
And I think you know, the evidence is strong for that.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
Yeah, and and just to to double click on that ground.
Speaker 4 (09:26):
A lot of people don't realize and you know, particularly
down this neck of the words, you know, we're we're
very aware of the dangers of the sun with skin
cancer because of the ozone and but the campaigns for
that have been so successful that now in Australia New
Zealand you have vitamin D insufficiency and vitamin D deficiency
(09:48):
about the same that you see in Scotland and Northern Ireland.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
Right well, I.
Speaker 2 (09:55):
Know it is ridiculous and that's actually there's a quarter
of the people live in Queensland of vitamin D deficient,
which astonishing.
Speaker 1 (10:00):
Thing to me.
Speaker 4 (10:02):
And most people don't realize grant that if you're vitamin
D deficient it increases your risk of pretty much every
cancer other than skin cancer.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
I mean vitamin D. I did a podcast on it.
It is actually we can think of it as.
Speaker 4 (10:17):
A hormone as well as a vitamin because it actually
regulated our a hormone regulator. It regulates about a whole
heap of different hormones and biological processes. It is so essential,
activates more than three hundred genes. It's just it's I
think it's the most important nutrient.
Speaker 3 (10:36):
Yeah, I agree. And also.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
Forgetting that you're saying deficient, Well that's one thing, but
you know beyond actually just having not deficient to move
into more of an optimal ran Yes, you know that's
actually beyond a lot of the population. So you're right,
you don't want to get sundur. But my goodness made
light for that effect is good. So what come we
move on from bottom and DA because I think, yeah,
(11:00):
there's to there's two way.
Speaker 3 (11:01):
More interesting ones that are coming up, so they get
more edgy.
Speaker 4 (11:04):
And actually grant before we move on, Can I can
I just say for for people, they recognize the optimal
level of vitamin D are one hundred to one hundred
and fifteen animals per liter. Now if you live in
the States, you're going to have to convert that. But yeah,
that that's what we're looking at for an optimal So let's.
Speaker 2 (11:19):
Move on, and you're going to have to make you
have to make a fair bit of effort to get there,
especially that's ducks skin, temperate climate, getting old, and the
other respect of courses is big too fat because it's
a fat soluble vitamin, and the more fat store you have,
the more it's sequested away and it's hard to get
out again. So yeah, so yeah, high glucos insulin resistance, obesity, age,
(11:42):
darker skin, temperate climate.
Speaker 1 (11:44):
Disaster for.
Speaker 3 (11:47):
Modern life. Yeah. So as as wavelinks changing into this.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
This far red and then the infrared category, and this
like penetrates much more deftly into the body. I mean,
this is an astonishing thing to me as a non physicist.
But lay a observer of the thing that you've got
this thing light with zero charge and zero mass, and
(12:18):
just get that around in your head. Then confers energy
and can do so across billions of light years, and.
Speaker 3 (12:27):
Then in the right waves, it.
Speaker 2 (12:29):
Will penetrate into the body, into the cells, into the mitochondria,
into the electron transport change, and now it's conferring energy
in the mitochondria electron transport change by moving electrons, which
is of course how.
Speaker 3 (12:43):
We get energy from ADP to ATP.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
I mean, that's an astonishing thing, Paul, I don't it
Just I just find that an incredible thing.
Speaker 4 (12:55):
Yes, for physiologists Grant who really understand that electron transport
chain and and and the energy creation in the body
for something like just just light to be able to
affect that is frigging unbelievable, but has massive implications for
human health because our mitochondria are so critical for health
(13:19):
and and they're they're implicated in a whole host of
physical diseases and neurogenerative diseases as well.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
Right, And and I know you've been a real fan
of this, and of course you can. You can get
this a natural light, but then you can you can
add to this. And I think you've got the You've
got the infra red type sonar, I've got the steam
songs do just and have the ficture. And then I
think you've got a.
Speaker 3 (13:44):
Your own array.
Speaker 4 (13:45):
I've got Yeah, I've got a I've got a full
light bed that does near infrared and infrared light. And
it's just because I looked into the research, I'm like,
holy shit, this is if you're going to spend money
on your health, and this is a very good when
you can buy a whole heap of different panels. I'll
(14:05):
link to I'll link to the stuff that I have
in the show notes. But but let's let's go back
to you to talk about some of the mechanisms by
which this this light, whether it's red light on the
skin or whether it's near infrared light. You know, what
are some of the things that we're actually seeing coming
(14:26):
out in the in the research about this well, I
think the most.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
Interesting to me is a study of Alzheimer's patients wearing
these little infrared cats and seeing improvements in symptoms. And
I think there's a similar study with parkinstances. They'sn't hold
me exacutly.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
There is, there is absolutely studies in Parkinson's.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
Yeah, and you know, these are problems with monocultural function.
And because you know, as you'd expect the brain being
the most energytic demanding organ, if you've got problems and
metabolism in mitochondrial function, I think that's the first place
that's already going to show up. So I think that's
(15:08):
as stylising. So I think that's the frontier. There's another
there's one more mechanism which I think is even more edgy.
If I haven't sent you the paper, and we'll certainly
send a link to and put on your notes. But
there's a paper published at the end of twenty twenty
three called melanin a Unifying Theory of Brain Health, And
(15:29):
it's really the only paper published in this and it's
in a medical hypothesis June, which I always find those
interesting because somewhere on the edge, and it's a US
couple who work for a biotech company that's really doing
work in biologics in terms of solar energy and solar
energy storage, and they've got patents in this, and no
(15:50):
one's ready published much else on this, but they really
do an extraordinary job of talking about what we think
of as a pigment in the skin melanin that I've got.
I've got darker skin than you. I've probably got more melanin.
You know, it's also in your hair, which also got
more than you.
Speaker 3 (16:07):
The uh.
Speaker 2 (16:14):
But but but but you know, it's it's an interesting thing,
right because that too. It takes light and it starts
to split water into hydrogen oxygen and four electrons it
and it can store it, which is you know, the
mitochondry don't store energy, they just produce energy, so it
can store energy there and you get that sort of
increase in melanin and the branding of the skin and
(16:35):
it becomes protective and that sort of stuff and has
antioxid data effectives.
Speaker 3 (16:40):
There's all that going on.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
So that's a that's there's no debate about melanin's photosynthetic properties,
the fact that it's in the skin.
Speaker 1 (16:49):
And so on and so forth.
Speaker 2 (16:53):
What's interesting is that these guys show that actually melanin,
it's not just in the skin, it's in most cells
in the body. And they particularly concentrations on neurons, and
they show that that melanin gratulates the nucleus in virtual
in your oonal cell and does receive non visible light
(17:16):
and converts it to energy. And this is I just
find this an astonishing thing that there's this whole other
pathway that's essentially photosynthetic as well.
Speaker 3 (17:27):
We don't know exactly what it does, but it's implicated in.
Speaker 2 (17:31):
Both Parkinson's and Outsider's and other origin to disease. Big
problems in that pathway. And in fact, you can actually
upregulate this pathway.
Speaker 3 (17:40):
With nicotine. It's the only probable benefit of nicotine.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
And you know, you've seen people in the biohacking world
recently microdosing nicotine, and actually nicotine is actually a protective
factor for Pakiston's.
Speaker 3 (17:56):
And I'm not saying you get up in smoke. That's
obviously a dumbass idea, but the the.
Speaker 2 (18:03):
You know, if all this pans out to be like
they say it is, or even half of it's true,
then to me it means we fundamentally.
Speaker 3 (18:11):
Don't understand a lot of biology.
Speaker 2 (18:14):
And I've been reflecting so much on this because I
think it was sixteen twenty eight that it was discovered
that we have a circulated we have a heart and
circulating bite.
Speaker 3 (18:24):
It's not in compartments as first thought.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
Now that would have seemed self evident to me, especially
the amount of killing and stuff that was going on
and animals and chemists look at it, but that was
a first really only came to scientific attention in the
sixteen twenty eight. It's so recent in human history really,
And so now, okay, now I understanding this light and okay,
(18:50):
vitamin D yeah, okay, of red okay, yep, okay, now
melon and there's this other new cab of the rank.
Speaker 3 (18:57):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (18:59):
And you know, it's not well known, and I don't
know exactly here it's going to paint out, but it's
to me that's fascinate important.
Speaker 3 (19:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
Absolutely.
Speaker 4 (19:07):
I mean the whole light thing, which I've only really
come across in the last couple of years, it's just
freaking mind blowing isn't it so for people just to
give a bit of a primer, a practical primer.
Speaker 1 (19:21):
So red light is actually visible, So.
Speaker 4 (19:24):
Any of the devices where you're talking about light therapy,
the red stuff is visible six twenty to seven fifty
and nanometers and that's really good for our skin, right,
so anybody with acne or skin conditions. I mean, we've
got one of those red light masks that the kids use.
It's actually brilliant for skin.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
And Is said, yes, So I have these little glasses.
Speaker 4 (19:51):
That were created by a guy in London and they're
called eye Power, and I will put a link into
hit us.
Speaker 1 (19:58):
Yeah I have them.
Speaker 4 (19:59):
Oh yeah, I mean I've had them for like two
years and you just stick them on once a week
and you turn it on and it's just this really
strong red light that actually has been shown to activate
the mitochondria in your retinal sales and an equals one
but it is how I still don't use glasses and
I'm fifty three, but that stuff is great. So red
(20:22):
light great for the eyes and the skin, and in
the near infrared, which you can't see, which is actually
eight hundred to twenty five hundred nanimeters, but there seems
to be a therapeutic window of around eight hundred to
twelve hundred, maybe even thirteen hundred, or some claims that
(20:42):
thirteen hundred will penetrate deeper, and that makes sense because
we know that eight hundred penetrates deeper than six point fifty.
But there are interesting research studies. One a great one
I think you've seen on Alzheimer's patients. They did twice
a day with these helmets for eight weeks ten sixty
(21:04):
to ten eighty nanometers. They had improvements in that s
and it's a global test of memory clock drawing, which
you know is a classic test for people with Alzheimer's
improvements and cognition concentration reductions and anxiety. And as you said,
then other research coming out about Parkinson's disease and these helmets.
(21:26):
Now they are pretty expensive, but I find a guy
who shows how you can make your own, so I
will link to this.
Speaker 2 (21:33):
Yeah, but it's pretty expensive having your life around by
exactly but lost of your soul basically. So there's another thing.
Speaker 4 (21:41):
Yeah, absolutely absolutely, And look, I have a red light
bed that I got from red dot led for about
half the price that you'd buy the commercial ones, and
as you and me know, Grant Grant, they all made
in the same factories in China, right, So well, we.
Speaker 3 (21:57):
Were scoring across the el the Express and there looking
at those.
Speaker 4 (22:00):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, so I will I will put a
link to the bed that I've got. You can buy
all sorts of different panels. But red light has been
shown to help with injury recovery, like that chineering for
red with injury recovery.
Speaker 1 (22:13):
But for me, the really interesting thing is the stimulation
of the mitochondria. Uh and and particularly when we get
into brein health. I think that's a whole new frontier.
Speaker 3 (22:25):
And then yea of physiology.
Speaker 4 (22:29):
Yeah, pretty, it's just it's it's it's just so amazing
that you just pull up this rock and all this
ship comes scurrying out about stuff we we just didn't
know about. And this Melanie thing, I'm gonna have to
look into that paper because that's pretty freaking interesting. Now
we could we could go in and talk about light
ad nauseum, but I think that's probably the main thing
(22:51):
unless you have anything else that you want to add
around light.
Speaker 1 (22:55):
Okay, so let's let's go and talk now about exercise.
Speaker 4 (23:00):
So I'll take the lead on exercise and then you
jump in wherever you want to. So look, the research
shows that exercises the most important thing for your longevity.
Speaker 1 (23:14):
It's as simple as that. And what most people don't.
Speaker 4 (23:17):
Understand, Grant, is that the reason that exercise is good
for you is that it's a stressor. So it's a
classic hormetic stressor in that if you don't do any
it's really bad for you. Then you do some, it's
good for you. You do more, it's better, you do
even more it's better. But then potentially ridiculous amounts of it.
You stop to see the benefits, and I'll maybe get
(23:40):
you to talk about some of that, some of those
negative effects, particularly around endurance training and af at the
end of it. But I think the two things that
are pretty key when you look at all the interventions
or or things that extend lifespan, and you VO two
max is a clear winner, an absolute clear winner. And
(24:05):
there doesn't seem to be an upper limit of VO
two right as opposed to the amount of time, so
that there's a bit of nuance there.
Speaker 1 (24:13):
Right. But that paper in.
Speaker 4 (24:15):
Jama which we have both seen, I will quickly give
an overview of this and you can comment on a cramp.
But it was produced a paper of one hundred and
twenty two thousand people who were all in their fifties
or sixties, underwent treadmill testing because they had ACG tests
on their heart, but they also did treadmill testing, They
did their VO two max.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
They followed them for fifteen years.
Speaker 4 (24:38):
A bunch of people died, and then at the end
of it they went back and analyzed it and said,
did their VO two max their cardio respiratory fitness fifteen
years ago have an impact on how long they lived
or their risk of dying? Right, So a little bit
of a primer context for people around hazard ratios to
understand this. So what they did in the same paper,
(25:00):
which I think is really good, they compared people who
were had certain conditions and didn't. So what this paper
showed hazard ratios. So if I was a smoker and
you weren't, grant, my hazard ratio for death in the
next fifteen years would be one point four to one.
So what that means for the light people out of
(25:21):
forty one percent increased chance of death in the next
fifteen years because I'm a smoker and you're not. Everybody
gets that if I had carneriorady disease, twenty nine percent
increased risk of death. If I had diabetes forty percent
increased risk of death.
Speaker 1 (25:34):
If I had hypertension twenty one percent increased risk of death.
Right here we get to the exercise.
Speaker 3 (25:41):
What about the INSIGHT's rental disease?
Speaker 1 (25:42):
Well, oh sorry, yeah, yeah, cool n stage renal disease.
Speaker 4 (25:45):
My kidneys are packing up and my hazard ratio is
two point seventy eight, So I'm one hundred and seventy
eight percent more likely to.
Speaker 1 (25:53):
Die than you in the next fifteen years.
Speaker 3 (25:55):
Right, yeah, what's the fir your kids?
Speaker 1 (25:58):
Yeah, exactly. But here's the thing.
Speaker 4 (26:00):
If you were below average, and what they did in
this low the lowest is the lowest twenty five percent,
then below average twenty five to fifty, then above average
fifty to seventy five, and then high the top twenty
five percent, and then elite. I think they carved the
top three out of the high It was two and
a half or three.
Speaker 3 (26:19):
Right, yeah.
Speaker 4 (26:22):
So if I'm low the lowest twenty five percent and
you're below average, my risk of death compared to yours
ninety five percent increase my hazard ratios one point ninety five.
This is like having diabetes, carnery art disease, and hypertension.
Speaker 1 (26:41):
That's the risk of me being low versus you being high.
But here's the ridiculous one.
Speaker 4 (26:46):
If you're elite and I'm low, I have a four
hundred and four percent increased risk of death compared to you.
That blows end stage renal disease out of the water.
In fact, you could have end stage adrenal disease, high pretension,
corny already to these diabetes and smoker, and you wouldn't
have to see the bloody risk factor of somebody low
versus heart.
Speaker 1 (27:07):
Yeah, like that's crazy.
Speaker 2 (27:08):
Yeah, it's a massive effect, and you take notice of
those as sort of that whole you know what counts
as a big effect in these studies that gets it. Interestingly, though,
there's a paper just come out this week around the
same thing, and I think it I never quite understand
these mend Ali and randomizations. Yes they use, but they
(27:29):
make a good point around VO two for its own sake,
because it's.
Speaker 3 (27:34):
At we go I need that number of the two max.
Speaker 2 (27:36):
But you know that they argue that actually it's probably
the best and most accurate proxy of overall how active
you are, you're sort of combined on well being. It's
a sort of weighted moving average of that as well.
So the more recent stuff counts, but it does have
quite a long history. And actually, if you sort of
(27:58):
low a look, there's a media to fixes on body composition, strength, strength, endurance,
some of.
Speaker 3 (28:05):
These other measures, those are actually the causal things.
Speaker 2 (28:08):
Rather than vi to itself being the main causal factor
in the science psych it's actually just a very repeatable,
accurate measurement that proxies, you know, much of all of
hormitic medicine in many ways. So that's I think that's
I quite like thinking about it that way. The way
that I don't understand their methods fully, by the way.
Speaker 3 (28:25):
But that's that's another story.
Speaker 1 (28:27):
I think that is a really good point. I mean
your veal too.
Speaker 4 (28:32):
It's not really something that you can cram for, you know,
I was, I was a cromer at university. I'm sure
you probably were right. So it's not something that you go,
I've got my vel to you. Next week, I'm going
to I'm going to train like a mad man for
a week. It is the best proxy of your overall
training history, I think, And that and there's.
Speaker 2 (28:54):
A well been layer as well over above training history
because your ability to recover from trying to get enough
sleep well enough, it's sort of built in so then
a bit as well. Yeah, so it's sort of like
a master measurement in some ways.
Speaker 3 (29:08):
You might think about it.
Speaker 2 (29:10):
I mean just wondering about it this morning when I
was coming up here thinking about that, you know, as
VO two actually just a proxy as a sort of
home more medic maths to measurement because you've got to
to achieve there in the long term. You've got you
can't be having a sleep stuff, You've got to be
eating in a reasonable way.
Speaker 3 (29:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (29:28):
Yeah, that's that's a very good point and it probably
plays into the next one where you know, next to
your veal two, one of the biggest predictors of longevity
is muscle strength. So and we see this in different research.
Some say it's muscle mass and others said strength. I
think mass is a proxy for strength, But for me,
(29:49):
the mechanism behind both strength and veal two is really
about let's talk about the hormetic mechanisms. Because exercise is
a stressor, right. Frank Booth showed fifteen years ago that
when you exercise. As soon as you start, you get
a big spike in stress response jenes. Right, so these
(30:11):
are the drivers of hormesis, and then there's an activation
of metabolic priority genes and then mitochondrial enzyme genes.
Speaker 1 (30:19):
But for me, I think the driver of a lot
of this are miokines.
Speaker 4 (30:26):
So some people who are familiar with this podcast will
have heard of but these are molecules that are released
from exercising muscle.
Speaker 1 (30:35):
We've known for decades.
Speaker 4 (30:36):
I mean when I went to my master's in exercise science,
my accounts, we were told helped to break down glucose
and fat and give the muscle energy and then help
in the remodeling to make them bigger, faster, stronger. We
now know that maokines get out into your circulation and
they have a positive impact on every single organ and
(30:59):
every organ system in the brain. But interestingly, from a
harmetic perspective, they activate the NRAF two and AR pathways, right,
So these are involved. These are critical pathways involved in
antioxidant defense at a cellular level and protection against inflammation.
Speaker 2 (31:20):
So yeah, it's so interesting that they do all the
signaling like just all over the place and specifically for
this type of thing and a different the SIME molecules
does the same signaling but somewhere else differently.
Speaker 4 (31:32):
For another you know, it's so yeah, the fact that
grant you know, the first markin was discovered in the
nineteen sixties.
Speaker 1 (31:41):
We now have identified more than.
Speaker 4 (31:43):
Six hundred MIO kinds, so molecules produced from muscles that
have signaling effects throughout the body, and we only know
what about sixty.
Speaker 1 (31:53):
Of them do.
Speaker 4 (31:54):
But we know they improve the health of your immune system,
your gastro intestinal system, to help your pancreas create insulin,
help your liver dispose your glutcose. They remold your bone
and blood vessels throughout your life. And in the brain
they trigger the release of BDNF that helps you create
new brain sales and protects the brain sales you have
against and veg VEGF that that helps.
Speaker 1 (32:16):
To grow that vascular network.
Speaker 4 (32:18):
So and a lot of it is mediated through these
stress response pathways. So for me, classic hormesis right there, I've.
Speaker 2 (32:30):
Been having these dreams. I don't know if you have
them or just lying and being thinking about this. So
I was imagining that I was like a nanosized vision
of me that I could travel around the body because
we're talking about these things. It's all very esotiric and
we've got these mechanisms and it makes sense that it's level.
But I'm just I mentioning, you know, you know the
cellular biochemistry. There's also things going on there. But you know,
when we I measure them in diagrams, it's not, of
(32:51):
course what they look like at all.
Speaker 1 (32:53):
Yes, exactly, And.
Speaker 2 (32:54):
I'm just like, what would it be like to be
inside the pancreas, I mean, randomly thinking about these things?
Speaker 3 (33:00):
Well, that's what reason that is.
Speaker 4 (33:05):
Actually that's quite interesting because this is how all this
shit happens, right, It is happening in the biochemistry. It's
happening at its cellular level. It's all the signaling stuff
that's actually going on. But let's give people, let's give
people some guidelines because I really want this to be
pretty practical, and so recommendations are around training, right, so
(33:30):
from a cardiovascular perspective.
Speaker 1 (33:32):
This is kind of more your bag than my bag.
Speaker 4 (33:36):
And talk to people a little bit about zone two
maphatone and you know the benefits of zone two and
then maybe some VO two max stuff, what like how
do we train for those different things?
Speaker 3 (33:50):
Yeah, so that's the.
Speaker 2 (33:53):
I think it's basically the way I can see of
that type of exercise. We're talking about this too, almost
completely different physiological effects of that exercise. One This is
the same too, which is I prefer done fasted or
without adding extra glucose really.
Speaker 3 (34:14):
And the thing about that is that it's activating, it's
returning insulin to basic.
Speaker 2 (34:19):
Levels, glucose to base levels, it's starting to now act
and get all the mechanisms of utopogy. And this is
essentially a catabolic process which is highly anti inflammatory and
very good for you. So you know, the trick there
is to keep the exercise very easy, and people find
(34:39):
this hard to do because for most people that's going
to be walking, some people make running or you know,
it's just conversation or you feel it you're finishing the
workout feeling invigorated. So just think about that anytime you
go working out, actually finishing this feeling good. And a
lot of people like to use heart rate to monitor that,
including myself. Off it's just an easy way of keeping
(35:01):
because you know the various a bit day to day
and you can cope with that with duration and whatnot.
So that's Mapatome's formula is one hundred and eighty beats
for a minute minus your age is about the upper limit.
Speaker 3 (35:13):
Of what we call the aerobic threshold.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
So it's you know, you've mentioned walking up the stairs
carrying a bag of grocer's where you first start to
catch any breath at all. It's not lap take thresholder
and a threshold we really starting to puff, and it's
just that first thing. You're just trying to stay under that.
And I think you can do several hours of that
in a day if you had to. Certainly you should
(35:36):
be doing several hours in a week.
Speaker 3 (35:38):
And this.
Speaker 2 (35:41):
Even if it fears down into a zone one, which
is even less than that. You know, okay, elite runners
may not benefit from walking except for for recovery, but
for most of us that's going to be good as well.
So I think you know that as we know, and
you're very good at doing guard and projects and these
(36:02):
types of things where you're just out all day.
Speaker 3 (36:05):
Cracking on with it and working.
Speaker 2 (36:09):
I really enjoyed cycling as sort of a middle ledge
man in life for a time. Coffee, So that's that's
the thing.
Speaker 4 (36:19):
And I think just for me, I really am a
good little thing for people to know about what how
much is too much? And you know, at the upper
end of zone two you should be able to talk
but not sing, right, So.
Speaker 1 (36:37):
If you.
Speaker 4 (36:39):
Are struggling to then hold a conversation, in our likelihood,
you've gone out of zone two and into zone three.
Speaker 1 (36:47):
I think that's pretty key.
Speaker 2 (36:48):
Yeah, And that that heart rate varies both within people
day to day and also just depending on your experience.
Like I'm fifty five and that methodtime one four the
eighty minuitas isn't correct for me at all. My aerobic
threat was at about one hundred and forty bats per minute,
and so I consider in the one thirties all day fine, and.
Speaker 3 (37:11):
That sort of thing.
Speaker 2 (37:11):
That other people are going to be in a different
space than that. You know, things just are different from
person to person, but you'll figure it out. It's you know,
it's not too hard to work with that. I think
the other end, though, that high intensity, which you've been
more into than me, which is you know, it's not
just it's actually highly pro inflammatory. So this is an
(37:34):
exercise that glucose is a primary fuel, and I think
you could even take some extra with you when you're
before we're doing that.
Speaker 3 (37:41):
It's brief, it's hard, and it's going.
Speaker 2 (37:46):
To push up that sort of two mats type thing,
but there's a whole different amount of signaling. And the
thing about, of course, this is the real hormetic part
of it, that this is highly stressful. The response is
briefly inflamma tree and then with appropriate recovery you're improving.
And I think, so now it's anabolic. So one top
fix is highly beneficial for its catabolic effects on mitochondrial
(38:10):
function and everything, and the other one is highly beneficial
because it's exact opposite of the anabolic.
Speaker 3 (38:16):
Yeah, so it's such an interesting thing about exercise.
Speaker 4 (38:20):
Yeah, at both ends of the scale it has benefits.
And I think for people the way I say, if
you're going to do VEO two max training, you know,
the classic stuff is intervals of between three and eight minutes,
and that that's probably dictated by your training history. But
at the end and you're going hard, you're going like
(38:41):
the hurt right now, oh absolutely, really really psychologically uncomfortable. Right,
So the idea is that the end of the three
minutes or the eight minutes, So if you're in an
eight minute versus a three minute.
Speaker 1 (38:54):
You're in a slightly lower pierce, but you should be
busted at the end of it, like like god, this
is fucking horrible. And then you rest for.
Speaker 4 (39:02):
About the equivalent amounts if you're doing a three minute
interval three minutes hard as and it's any bit of
equipment that you can be a rower across trainer or
a bike running running outside, and then.
Speaker 1 (39:15):
You rest for about three minutes. Now, if you're doing
eight minute.
Speaker 4 (39:17):
Intervals, I don't think you need eight minutes rest, right,
you need three to five minutes rest.
Speaker 1 (39:22):
But then you repeat those and you do three to
five of those.
Speaker 4 (39:25):
Now, Interestingly, some people don't respond tremendously well to that,
but they do respond to the.
Speaker 1 (39:34):
More classic Tobata shorter.
Speaker 4 (39:36):
One thirty thirty on, yeah yeah, yeah yeah, so that
and that's that is really horrible, right, I.
Speaker 1 (39:46):
Do those sorts of things on my versa climber thirty
on thirty off.
Speaker 4 (39:50):
It is freaking evil, right, and you are you know,
you do six to ten of those, but there's a
you know, if you do five of them, that's a
that's a ten minute workout, but it's hell, it's hell
on earth. But that will really move the needle around
your VO two max and all those hormonic stressors. I
(40:11):
think the key that I've learned over the years, and
a lot of it talking to you, is don't do
all of your exercise like that, because I have traditionally
done all of my I even do my strength training
like that. And actually, now let's talk about strength. So
for the average individual, you want to be doing two
to three full body weight workouts a week. Forget about
(40:36):
bodybuilding training muscle parts. I actually like thinking about movement patterns.
Particularly you want to be functional. Now, if you're an athlete,
this doesn't count, right, this is different. This is if
you want longevity. I like thinking about push, pull, bend, squat, lunge, rotate, right,
and then you have exercise around that. And I tend
(40:57):
to when I'm programming, I'll do like push, lunch, rotate, pull,
band squat right, or you know, try to alternately.
Speaker 3 (41:08):
Sort of cycle through those, like on each of those
and then come back again or something.
Speaker 1 (41:13):
Yeah, So what I will tend to do.
Speaker 4 (41:16):
So we've got you've got six different movement patterns, and
then I add I add a rehab one at the end, right,
So I do seven, and I do thirty seconds of work.
Speaker 1 (41:27):
So time under.
Speaker 4 (41:28):
Tension I like to think about rather than reps and
really emphasizing the eccentric portion. So I'll do thirty seconds
of work, ten seconds of rest, which isn't rest, it's
moved to the next station, thirty seconds of work. So
I do seven of those, and then I do that
four times, so I do a circuit.
Speaker 1 (41:47):
So there's okay, I'm going to go.
Speaker 2 (41:50):
So where I work here in my labor I've got
an awesome gum I'm going to do. I like this
time under the tension, but I'm going to do that.
Speaker 4 (41:56):
Yeah, And so that that is about sixteen seventy in
it workout. It's less than twenty minutes. But I'm getting
twenty eight sets of resistance training in there. And I'm
also activating my cardiovascar system. Because you're breathing out your arse,
you know you're going pretty hard, particularly when you're doing
the full body movements, the bends, the and the and
the squats.
Speaker 1 (42:16):
So I think that is a bit of a guide
for people how much.
Speaker 2 (42:22):
How much you're putting on, Like when you're doing the
a weighted part of it, they have close to getting
a failure.
Speaker 4 (42:28):
I am pretty much at failure at the end of
those thirty seconds, right, So I'm just sort of judging
it a bit.
Speaker 1 (42:34):
Like that, Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 4 (42:35):
Now, I will then I will then mix this up
where I will do specific strength stuff, right, So I'm
on a bit of a strength fee. So you'll find
that that that that's thirty seconds. You know, depending on
the exercise, you're getting ten.
Speaker 1 (42:51):
To fifteen reps.
Speaker 4 (42:52):
That that's kind of in the hypertrophy fees. And as
I said, you can lengthen the eccentric and you reduce
the reps. Then if you want to train strength, it's different. Right,
it's three to six rms.
Speaker 1 (43:06):
Like you can do one and two. But I don't
recommend that normal people do that.
Speaker 4 (43:10):
That's more for athletes because the injury risk when you're
doing a one red max is pretty high. So that
you pick a way that you can do for maximum
three to six that's going.
Speaker 1 (43:21):
To do the best in terms of strength. And then
you want more rest periods.
Speaker 4 (43:26):
So I will then tend to because I don't like
sitting around a lot, I will turn it out, yes,
so I would superst even when I'm doing strength, so
I might do chest back right and I'll do three RMS,
so i might do wait to chin ups or or
rose or something like that, and then i'll do a
bench press or a standing push press, and I'll do
(43:49):
three to six RM and I'll go chest back and
then I'll have a little bit of recovery and then
i'll go back.
Speaker 1 (43:55):
You want about two minutes rest before you.
Speaker 4 (43:58):
Go again, and to be very impatient with two minutes, right,
So sometimes I'll do a try set, I'll add something
else in and then i'll have by the time I
get back to my chest, say about two minutes have elapsed.
Speaker 3 (44:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (44:12):
So for people the superseit terms when you're doing you're
doing one exercise, which doesn't really think the other exercise
exactly the bridge space or something the other way, just
carry on the other.
Speaker 4 (44:23):
And for me that's all about efficiency, right, So if
you've got unlimited time, then you can do the classic routical.
I don't have unlimited times, so when I'm doing the
strength stuff, I tend to do super sets or try sets, right,
and then there's all sorts of extra stuff that you
can add in that I think is beyond the scope
of this.
Speaker 1 (44:41):
When we're turning. This is just really the key thing.
And then if you want to be training for power
and I can't pronounce that word power pow e R.
Speaker 4 (44:51):
People think I'm talking about golf when I say muscular power.
The key thing that people don't understand is that's quite
light and it's fast movement. So it's plyometrics right, it's jumping,
but it's also when you're doing a weight, it's about
thirty percent of your rep max. So it's only about
thirty percent of the weight that you could left. So
say you're going to standard standing cable press. It's actually
(45:15):
quite light, but it's really explosive and you need a
fur bit of rest between the par stuff. Right, So
that I think is an overall not exhaustive, but I
think that gives people an overall guide around. So for cardio,
you want to do a bit of Zone two, then
you want to do the hard horrible stuff around your
VIEO two max intervals, then your strength. Two to three
(45:37):
full body circuit training sessions a week will get you
a really good level of functional strength that plays in
beautifully to longevity.
Speaker 2 (45:48):
I don't want to be driving the edge or content
of your podcast, no, but I reckon now it's a
good time to introduce something we weren't planning to talk about,
which is around protein. Oh yes, well, I just think
there's a couple of things here, and there's a couple
of core studies just come out. So first of all,
(46:08):
it's all good and while having you know, ormoned stress,
especially for muscle, but you are going to need some
of the actual building blocks for that, and you know,
the essential mental acids are a pretty important part of that.
So you know, eating protein is important. But but I reckon,
there's too this is this is there's the I think
we did talk.
Speaker 3 (46:29):
About this, the stuff that they do with the they
feed the radio label phenol analine.
Speaker 1 (46:33):
To the cows and then they know we haven't talked
about this, No go ahead.
Speaker 3 (46:38):
So these are these Dutch.
Speaker 2 (46:40):
Guys, and so this is an expensive thing, like a
million million euros for a cow, right, So you want
to figure out how and what happens to ingested protein
and you know, how does it end up in the muscle,
what's the sort of rate of turnover, and you know,
how does stress affected and all that sort of stuff.
So you can't just so you've got to do something
of radio label amino acids. You can't just seat them directly,
(47:03):
because you're not really getting them from foods. To tell
you the story, So they feed these things to a
cow and milk the cow or get them not powder.
They bchel the cow, get mints and steak and stuff,
and then you can eat the mental steak or the
milk powder, and you can do studies about them.
Speaker 3 (47:19):
Bioposite people's muscles and.
Speaker 2 (47:20):
Look at protein synthesis, which is pretty crazy for a start, right,
and so the classic fair study is just getting a
Uni student and putting a cast on one of their
legs for a week, so they've got one muscle's completely isolated.
The other it's the left leg as mobilize rightly, it
serves as it's control. End of a week, you know,
(47:42):
feed them some of that milk powder, biop see the
muscle and sort of look at the protein synthesis and
you see that it's impaired by about thirty five percent
just with the So it's interesting for a start, yes,
but then also in the active muscle you look at, well,
what's the rate of the synthesis. You know, what does
this mean for entire the entire muscle protein renewal and
(48:04):
synthesis of the muscle and they go, oh, yeah, well
sort of every three months or so, the entire muscle
is turning over.
Speaker 4 (48:09):
That that's really important for people to understand, grant, right,
is that a lot of people think your muscle is
just your muscle, and it is. Your muscle is not
the same muscle as that was three months ago. It's
a completely new muscle.
Speaker 2 (48:23):
Well, and then anyway, so just to carry that on,
they had somehow are studying there's a bunch of people
with epilepsy who are getting some brain surger, and well,
we could do the same feeding study. And then now
because we've got access, we could do a little biopsy
of brain to sure and look at and they're like, oh, yeah,
well that looks like because it's such a meniabolical actor.
But augum, the whole thing's already turning over every six weeks.
Speaker 3 (48:45):
Right, that's an incredible thing for the brain, right, find
that an interesting Yeah? Yeah, And then the same group's
done that.
Speaker 2 (48:55):
I think you probably heard this study just in the
last couple of months, is that they actually started feeding
people after exercise either twenty five grams of available protein
or one hundred grams. And you know, the eIDAS are well,
you know, really, twenty five grands is sort of the
maxim you're going to get for protein synthesism.
Speaker 3 (49:14):
More than that's not going to affect muscle proteins.
Speaker 2 (49:17):
And actually one hundred gramds not only has a bigger effect,
but keeps going for you know, twelve hours later, it's
still got an effect twelve eyes.
Speaker 1 (49:26):
Wow, that's really interesting.
Speaker 3 (49:30):
So that's why you'll wrap on that stuff. Not my research,
but so interesting, right, Yeah.
Speaker 4 (49:34):
It is interesting, And you do bring up a really
good point I must not even mention. It is that
you need more protein than you think, and as particularly
as you get older, we lose muscle protein synthesis. Now
let's bring that back to muscle mass and strength. It
is we lose muscle mass at the rear of three
(49:56):
to eight percent per decade, and it accelerates, and it
is not unusual for somebody to hit the ears of
seventy five and they've lost up to half of all
the muscle mass. What that means for people is you've
just lost fifty percent of the ability for MYO kinds
to actually do their work.
Speaker 1 (50:17):
So for me, that's really really key.
Speaker 3 (50:19):
Yeah, and so interesting, isn't it. Yeah?
Speaker 4 (50:21):
And this muscle protein synthesis. It decays as you eat,
so they now wreckon that. These recommended guidelines which used
to be you know it was the RDA was zero
point eight grams of protein per kilogram.
Speaker 1 (50:36):
Of body weight. Nowhere near enough.
Speaker 4 (50:39):
It's double it, yeah, double it at least, and especially
as you're getting older.
Speaker 1 (50:44):
You want to be up to two grams per kilogram
of body weight.
Speaker 4 (50:47):
Now the guide that I had used was and forty
grams of protein is what I was aiming for after
I do a workout, and about forty grams of protein
at each meal. But for me, you have to have
that four times a day if you want to optimize
protein synthesis. And this is what most people don't realize
Grant right, is that we have a fur chunk of
(51:10):
storage capacity for glucose in terms of liver glycogen and
muscle glycogen. We've got an almost limitless storage capacity for fat.
But you actually don't store amino acids. And amino acids
are so critical for cellular functions. So at night, and
particularly if you haven't had enough protein, and especially at
(51:30):
dinner at night, your body is breaking down your muscle
every single night to get those amino acids to give
them to the cells to keep the cells going right.
That they are essential building blocks of life. And most
people do not eat anywhere near enough protein. And also
if you are vegetarian or vegan, it is harder to
(51:53):
get the protein. Now some people are very diligent about it,
but the average person who's vegetari and or vegan will
definitely not have enough pro team.
Speaker 1 (52:00):
So they've got to really think about focusing on protein.
Speaker 3 (52:05):
You know, they hey, can you do this on Australia, Like,
we're just it here. I've got a petition who's on
a farm and that one of.
Speaker 2 (52:11):
The cows was just charging your and tripping your against
the fence. So they knocked it off and we got
a quarter of it, which was but you can buy
like and you say when they call it, you know,
we'll get half a beast the other thing in Ausie
and you can just like get a.
Speaker 4 (52:23):
Load of Yeah, there's there's there's there's a lot of
stuff now from from the farmer direct where you can
just buy a massive amount. I mean, Cardie's dad has
has caries up at his farm and occasionally he would
butcher one and we get a bucket load of meat
which was was fantastic. The vegans aren't going to like
this little bit of the conversation, but anywhere.
Speaker 1 (52:45):
This is the end of Part one.
Prof Grant, Welcome back to the podcast. I think this
is four or five.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
My favorite podcast with my favorite podcast in good Night.
Speaker 3 (00:18):
So yeah, thanks having me better.
Speaker 4 (00:20):
Yeah, we are going to talk all things hormesis right now,
just for the listeners.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
And I'm very excited about this.
Speaker 4 (00:29):
I emailed you a few months back and said, I've
just been thinking about life in general, and I'm kind
of at the fears of my life that i.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
Want to be doing cool shit with people.
Speaker 4 (00:44):
That I really like and admire. And I said to you,
how about we create a lab called the hormesas Lab,
because we're both big on this and you already run
a lab, and you said, yes, so we are.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
This is the I guess the official.
Speaker 4 (01:00):
Announcement of the launch of the Hormesis Lab or We're
going to be doing a whole heap of research on
hormesis and the benefits for human health. But just for
our listeners, can you give us the kind of broad
overview of what hormesis is.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
Yeah, well, first of all, it's an exciting announcement, Paul,
you know, really driven by your energy, so thank you
for doing that. I guess homesos, you know, suffering some
biological stress and addiction to that is interesting, but I
think there's a bigger picture of that, And so homesis
(01:40):
makes you a more robust.
Speaker 3 (01:42):
Version of yourself. Whether it's.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
Light, or it's exercise, or it's some of the slightly
toxic photochemicals polyphyin ours or.
Speaker 3 (01:54):
Whatever, there's a whole batch of them.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
We'll talk about us today. Why do you want to
be robust in the first place. And the reason you
want to be robust is that living a good life
means that you're going to suffer insults, stress, and really
biologically speaking, you want to return yourself back to your
normal homeostatus. So the body's ability and when I say body,
(02:18):
I include the brain, the mind, and everything, and that
it's ability to return itself to that sort of tightly
controlled area that it thrives at is central to everything
and you can either have it return thereby I don't know,
lying in bed. But the trouble with that is that
(02:38):
you're down grade.
Speaker 3 (02:41):
The body's not.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
Going to waste resources on things news, so then you
can't do anything other than stay in bed. So if
you want to actually get out and about in the
real world, you're going to have to constantly suffer these
insults and be robust enough to do them. And of
course we were finally tuned to do that evolutionary, but
we haven't any capability to do that once you start
to air on the perials of modern life. So we
(03:04):
need to actively seek out these things now and understand
them and understand the science behind it.
Speaker 3 (03:09):
So that's really hell I think about it.
Speaker 4 (03:13):
Yeah, I actually thought it was as we were talking
about that. I think we could have a quote for
the Hermesis Lab.
Speaker 1 (03:21):
There's two stoic quotes that the obvious one, right.
Speaker 4 (03:24):
Is is that what does not kill us makes us stronger. Right,
that's the obvious one for their Mesas lab. But I
think there's a couple of quotes that sprung to my
epicthetis is we must all undergo a hard winter training
and not enter into lightly that for which we have
not prepared, right.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
And he was talking about life.
Speaker 3 (03:44):
So that, yeah, that's closer to the en.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
Of it, I think absolutely.
Speaker 4 (03:50):
And then a little subtext from Seneca unimpowered good fortune
cannot withstand.
Speaker 1 (03:55):
A single blow.
Speaker 4 (03:58):
Yeah, but it's it's all about this idea that hormesis,
so exposure to stressors or toxins that at high levels
can kill you, but at low to moderate levels, particularly intermittently,
into stress resistance. And and this is really the crux
(04:18):
of all of these hormetic pathways are hermetic activators that
we're going to talk about.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
So and then stress resistance meaning that you can get better,
better normal normal range of function in homeosizes more quickly.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
Yeah, and actually moving beyond that.
Speaker 4 (04:38):
So for me, hormetic stressors drive super compensation. You know,
if we think of Selly's model, and and and I
recently read a paper where they talked about and they
used the Latin terms and it was, you know, getting
back to normal eustasis. So they they called it when
(04:59):
stress load you overload you.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
They call that cacastasis.
Speaker 4 (05:04):
So it's basically a breakdown of of your of your equilibrium.
And then they talked about hyperstasis, which is an elevated state.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
And that's really what we're all about with the hormesis lab.
Speaker 4 (05:18):
Is not just about resilience and getting back to homeostasis,
but how can you make yourself more robust, increase your
stress resistance because of deliberate exposure to certain amount of
stressors or toxins, which at high levels can kill you
but we're after the stress resistance, right, yeah, And I.
Speaker 3 (05:41):
Think you know, we see the physical aspects of that
quite plainly. Everyone does. I think about you know, strength,
you've got a relativity stuff. Yes, in endurance, you've got to.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
Stemini, you've got to actually go out there and do network.
But in the psychological realm, I think it's equally, if
not more important, And it's a discussion that we're not
having a society at all. And I mean the sort
of clown like behavior of policymakers undergoing you know, keep
people safe and removing them from stress to help their
(06:14):
mental health is an extraordinary thing to be doing when
it is actually likely to be the very problem in
the first place.
Speaker 4 (06:23):
Absolutely, and hey, there's going to let's do a podcast
on that, actually, because I think there's an entire podcast
on that.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
But let's talk about that.
Speaker 4 (06:32):
I mean, the really obvious one is exercise. But before
we get into exercise, let's talk about late.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
Well. I think light has just the more you go
down that rabbit hole that you're more of, you're fascinated.
And I think people are well aware that light penetrates
to the body, and they might not know that depending
on the wavelength of that lightness. Because it's visible and
non visible, it penetrates some different and the most obvious,
(07:02):
well known one is the blue wavelength light that's in
that midday sun and whatnot, and so that has a
couple of effects of the festival. We're well aware of
its effect on metaltonin and you know, the sort of
sleepiness woman, and so it's not talking about that too much.
The second thing is it's hitting in that first layer
(07:24):
or two of the skin, and it's hitting cholesterol and
it's splitting that into the active form of vitamin D.
Speaker 3 (07:35):
And that's a crucial part of normal ability to.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
Get glucose homeore status because it's involved in gluco transport,
but it's also in sort of immune system function and robustness.
It's massive, and I think it's the most overlooked thing,
and I think there's a few subtleties that it's just
coming to my mind at the moment of around that.
First of all, there is an optimal point beyond which
(08:04):
you can actually deplete vitamin D. So once you start
to get some reddening of the skin, that that effect
is now counter productive. So she's now depleting, and so
that's something to think about when you're out in the sun.
Speaker 4 (08:17):
So are you saying that when you start to when
you start, your skin starts to burn and then negatively
impacts fitnamin D synthesis.
Speaker 3 (08:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
Yeah, And there's an interaction there with blood glucose as well,
So the higher glucose is.
Speaker 3 (08:28):
The more quickly you get that effect. And that's the thing.
The second is that there's a much stronger age effect
in your ability to do this from the sun than
you think. And then she wants you to start to
get our age four.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
It's going to become more and more difficult when you're
living in places like Melbourne and Auckland in the winter.
And you know, then if you're thinking about supplementation, I
actually think that is actually a reasonable thing to think about.
Speaker 3 (09:00):
Don't either that or just booking some atheists nurser or something.
Speaker 4 (09:04):
Uh uh.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
So there's that's so there's a you know, there's a
strong out effect. There's obviously skinned darkness effects. So if
you're dark skinned, you're getting old and you're living in
a philly, temperate climate, you're going to have to really
max some effort.
Speaker 3 (09:20):
And I think you know, the evidence is strong for that.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
Yeah, and and just to to double click on that ground.
Speaker 4 (09:26):
A lot of people don't realize and you know, particularly
down this neck of the words, you know, we're we're
very aware of the dangers of the sun with skin
cancer because of the ozone and but the campaigns for
that have been so successful that now in Australia New
Zealand you have vitamin D insufficiency and vitamin D deficiency
(09:48):
about the same that you see in Scotland and Northern Ireland.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
Right well, I.
Speaker 2 (09:55):
Know it is ridiculous and that's actually there's a quarter
of the people live in Queensland of vitamin D deficient,
which astonishing.
Speaker 1 (10:00):
Thing to me.
Speaker 4 (10:02):
And most people don't realize grant that if you're vitamin
D deficient it increases your risk of pretty much every
cancer other than skin cancer.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
I mean vitamin D. I did a podcast on it.
It is actually we can think of it as.
Speaker 4 (10:17):
A hormone as well as a vitamin because it actually
regulated our a hormone regulator. It regulates about a whole
heap of different hormones and biological processes. It is so essential,
activates more than three hundred genes. It's just it's I
think it's the most important nutrient.
Speaker 3 (10:36):
Yeah, I agree. And also.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
Forgetting that you're saying deficient, Well that's one thing, but
you know beyond actually just having not deficient to move
into more of an optimal ran Yes, you know that's
actually beyond a lot of the population. So you're right,
you don't want to get sundur. But my goodness made
light for that effect is good. So what come we
move on from bottom and DA because I think, yeah,
(11:00):
there's to there's two way.
Speaker 3 (11:01):
More interesting ones that are coming up, so they get
more edgy.
Speaker 4 (11:04):
And actually grant before we move on, Can I can
I just say for for people, they recognize the optimal
level of vitamin D are one hundred to one hundred
and fifteen animals per liter. Now if you live in
the States, you're going to have to convert that. But yeah,
that that's what we're looking at for an optimal So let's.
Speaker 2 (11:19):
Move on, and you're going to have to make you
have to make a fair bit of effort to get there,
especially that's ducks skin, temperate climate, getting old, and the
other respect of courses is big too fat because it's
a fat soluble vitamin, and the more fat store you have,
the more it's sequested away and it's hard to get
out again. So yeah, so yeah, high glucos insulin resistance, obesity, age,
(11:42):
darker skin, temperate climate.
Speaker 1 (11:44):
Disaster for.
Speaker 3 (11:47):
Modern life. Yeah. So as as wavelinks changing into this.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
This far red and then the infrared category, and this
like penetrates much more deftly into the body. I mean,
this is an astonishing thing to me as a non physicist.
But lay a observer of the thing that you've got
this thing light with zero charge and zero mass, and
(12:18):
just get that around in your head. Then confers energy
and can do so across billions of light years, and.
Speaker 3 (12:27):
Then in the right waves, it.
Speaker 2 (12:29):
Will penetrate into the body, into the cells, into the mitochondria,
into the electron transport change, and now it's conferring energy
in the mitochondria electron transport change by moving electrons, which
is of course how.
Speaker 3 (12:43):
We get energy from ADP to ATP.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
I mean, that's an astonishing thing, Paul, I don't it
Just I just find that an incredible thing.
Speaker 4 (12:55):
Yes, for physiologists Grant who really understand that electron transport
chain and and and the energy creation in the body
for something like just just light to be able to
affect that is frigging unbelievable, but has massive implications for
human health because our mitochondria are so critical for health
(13:19):
and and they're they're implicated in a whole host of
physical diseases and neurogenerative diseases as well.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
Right, And and I know you've been a real fan
of this, and of course you can. You can get
this a natural light, but then you can you can
add to this. And I think you've got the You've
got the infra red type sonar, I've got the steam
songs do just and have the ficture. And then I
think you've got a.
Speaker 3 (13:44):
Your own array.
Speaker 4 (13:45):
I've got Yeah, I've got a I've got a full
light bed that does near infrared and infrared light. And
it's just because I looked into the research, I'm like,
holy shit, this is if you're going to spend money
on your health, and this is a very good when
you can buy a whole heap of different panels. I'll
(14:05):
link to I'll link to the stuff that I have
in the show notes. But but let's let's go back
to you to talk about some of the mechanisms by
which this this light, whether it's red light on the
skin or whether it's near infrared light. You know, what
are some of the things that we're actually seeing coming
(14:26):
out in the in the research about this well, I
think the most.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
Interesting to me is a study of Alzheimer's patients wearing
these little infrared cats and seeing improvements in symptoms. And
I think there's a similar study with parkinstances. They'sn't hold
me exacutly.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
There is, there is absolutely studies in Parkinson's.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
Yeah, and you know, these are problems with monocultural function.
And because you know, as you'd expect the brain being
the most energytic demanding organ, if you've got problems and
metabolism in mitochondrial function, I think that's the first place
that's already going to show up. So I think that's
(15:08):
as stylising. So I think that's the frontier. There's another
there's one more mechanism which I think is even more edgy.
If I haven't sent you the paper, and we'll certainly
send a link to and put on your notes. But
there's a paper published at the end of twenty twenty
three called melanin a Unifying Theory of Brain Health, And
(15:29):
it's really the only paper published in this and it's
in a medical hypothesis June, which I always find those
interesting because somewhere on the edge, and it's a US
couple who work for a biotech company that's really doing
work in biologics in terms of solar energy and solar
energy storage, and they've got patents in this, and no
(15:50):
one's ready published much else on this, but they really
do an extraordinary job of talking about what we think
of as a pigment in the skin melanin that I've got.
I've got darker skin than you. I've probably got more melanin.
You know, it's also in your hair, which also got
more than you.
Speaker 3 (16:07):
The uh.
Speaker 2 (16:14):
But but but but you know, it's it's an interesting thing,
right because that too. It takes light and it starts
to split water into hydrogen oxygen and four electrons it
and it can store it, which is you know, the
mitochondry don't store energy, they just produce energy, so it
can store energy there and you get that sort of
increase in melanin and the branding of the skin and
(16:35):
it becomes protective and that sort of stuff and has
antioxid data effectives.
Speaker 3 (16:40):
There's all that going on.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
So that's a that's there's no debate about melanin's photosynthetic properties,
the fact that it's in the skin.
Speaker 1 (16:49):
And so on and so forth.
Speaker 2 (16:53):
What's interesting is that these guys show that actually melanin,
it's not just in the skin, it's in most cells
in the body. And they particularly concentrations on neurons, and
they show that that melanin gratulates the nucleus in virtual
in your oonal cell and does receive non visible light
(17:16):
and converts it to energy. And this is I just
find this an astonishing thing that there's this whole other
pathway that's essentially photosynthetic as well.
Speaker 3 (17:27):
We don't know exactly what it does, but it's implicated in.
Speaker 2 (17:31):
Both Parkinson's and Outsider's and other origin to disease. Big
problems in that pathway. And in fact, you can actually
upregulate this pathway.
Speaker 3 (17:40):
With nicotine. It's the only probable benefit of nicotine.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
And you know, you've seen people in the biohacking world
recently microdosing nicotine, and actually nicotine is actually a protective
factor for Pakiston's.
Speaker 3 (17:56):
And I'm not saying you get up in smoke. That's
obviously a dumbass idea, but the the.
Speaker 2 (18:03):
You know, if all this pans out to be like
they say it is, or even half of it's true,
then to me it means we fundamentally.
Speaker 3 (18:11):
Don't understand a lot of biology.
Speaker 2 (18:14):
And I've been reflecting so much on this because I
think it was sixteen twenty eight that it was discovered
that we have a circulated we have a heart and
circulating bite.
Speaker 3 (18:24):
It's not in compartments as first thought.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
Now that would have seemed self evident to me, especially
the amount of killing and stuff that was going on
and animals and chemists look at it, but that was
a first really only came to scientific attention in the
sixteen twenty eight. It's so recent in human history really,
And so now, okay, now I understanding this light and okay,
(18:50):
vitamin D yeah, okay, of red okay, yep, okay, now
melon and there's this other new cab of the rank.
Speaker 3 (18:57):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (18:59):
And you know, it's not well known, and I don't
know exactly here it's going to paint out, but it's
to me that's fascinate important.
Speaker 3 (19:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
Absolutely.
Speaker 4 (19:07):
I mean the whole light thing, which I've only really
come across in the last couple of years, it's just
freaking mind blowing isn't it so for people just to
give a bit of a primer, a practical primer.
Speaker 1 (19:21):
So red light is actually visible, So.
Speaker 4 (19:24):
Any of the devices where you're talking about light therapy,
the red stuff is visible six twenty to seven fifty
and nanometers and that's really good for our skin, right,
so anybody with acne or skin conditions. I mean, we've
got one of those red light masks that the kids use.
It's actually brilliant for skin.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
And Is said, yes, So I have these little glasses.
Speaker 4 (19:51):
That were created by a guy in London and they're
called eye Power, and I will put a link into
hit us.
Speaker 1 (19:58):
Yeah I have them.
Speaker 4 (19:59):
Oh yeah, I mean I've had them for like two
years and you just stick them on once a week
and you turn it on and it's just this really
strong red light that actually has been shown to activate
the mitochondria in your retinal sales and an equals one
but it is how I still don't use glasses and
I'm fifty three, but that stuff is great. So red
(20:22):
light great for the eyes and the skin, and in
the near infrared, which you can't see, which is actually
eight hundred to twenty five hundred nanimeters, but there seems
to be a therapeutic window of around eight hundred to
twelve hundred, maybe even thirteen hundred, or some claims that
(20:42):
thirteen hundred will penetrate deeper, and that makes sense because
we know that eight hundred penetrates deeper than six point fifty.
But there are interesting research studies. One a great one
I think you've seen on Alzheimer's patients. They did twice
a day with these helmets for eight weeks ten sixty
(21:04):
to ten eighty nanometers. They had improvements in that s
and it's a global test of memory clock drawing, which
you know is a classic test for people with Alzheimer's
improvements and cognition concentration reductions and anxiety. And as you said,
then other research coming out about Parkinson's disease and these helmets.
(21:26):
Now they are pretty expensive, but I find a guy
who shows how you can make your own, so I
will link to this.
Speaker 2 (21:33):
Yeah, but it's pretty expensive having your life around by
exactly but lost of your soul basically. So there's another thing.
Speaker 4 (21:41):
Yeah, absolutely absolutely, And look, I have a red light
bed that I got from red dot led for about
half the price that you'd buy the commercial ones, and
as you and me know, Grant Grant, they all made
in the same factories in China, right, So well, we.
Speaker 3 (21:57):
Were scoring across the el the Express and there looking
at those.
Speaker 4 (22:00):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, so I will I will put a
link to the bed that I've got. You can buy
all sorts of different panels. But red light has been
shown to help with injury recovery, like that chineering for
red with injury recovery.
Speaker 1 (22:13):
But for me, the really interesting thing is the stimulation
of the mitochondria. Uh and and particularly when we get
into brein health. I think that's a whole new frontier.
Speaker 3 (22:25):
And then yea of physiology.
Speaker 4 (22:29):
Yeah, pretty, it's just it's it's it's just so amazing
that you just pull up this rock and all this
ship comes scurrying out about stuff we we just didn't
know about. And this Melanie thing, I'm gonna have to
look into that paper because that's pretty freaking interesting. Now
we could we could go in and talk about light
ad nauseum, but I think that's probably the main thing
(22:51):
unless you have anything else that you want to add
around light.
Speaker 1 (22:55):
Okay, so let's let's go and talk now about exercise.
Speaker 4 (23:00):
So I'll take the lead on exercise and then you
jump in wherever you want to. So look, the research
shows that exercises the most important thing for your longevity.
Speaker 1 (23:14):
It's as simple as that. And what most people don't.
Speaker 4 (23:17):
Understand, Grant, is that the reason that exercise is good
for you is that it's a stressor. So it's a
classic hormetic stressor in that if you don't do any
it's really bad for you. Then you do some, it's
good for you. You do more, it's better, you do
even more it's better. But then potentially ridiculous amounts of it.
You stop to see the benefits, and I'll maybe get
(23:40):
you to talk about some of that, some of those
negative effects, particularly around endurance training and af at the
end of it. But I think the two things that
are pretty key when you look at all the interventions
or or things that extend lifespan, and you VO two
max is a clear winner, an absolute clear winner. And
(24:05):
there doesn't seem to be an upper limit of VO
two right as opposed to the amount of time, so
that there's a bit of nuance there.
Speaker 1 (24:13):
Right. But that paper in.
Speaker 4 (24:15):
Jama which we have both seen, I will quickly give
an overview of this and you can comment on a cramp.
But it was produced a paper of one hundred and
twenty two thousand people who were all in their fifties
or sixties, underwent treadmill testing because they had ACG tests
on their heart, but they also did treadmill testing, They
did their VO two max.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
They followed them for fifteen years.
Speaker 4 (24:38):
A bunch of people died, and then at the end
of it they went back and analyzed it and said,
did their VO two max their cardio respiratory fitness fifteen
years ago have an impact on how long they lived
or their risk of dying? Right, So a little bit
of a primer context for people around hazard ratios to
understand this. So what they did in the same paper,
(25:00):
which I think is really good, they compared people who
were had certain conditions and didn't. So what this paper
showed hazard ratios. So if I was a smoker and
you weren't, grant, my hazard ratio for death in the
next fifteen years would be one point four to one.
So what that means for the light people out of
(25:21):
forty one percent increased chance of death in the next
fifteen years because I'm a smoker and you're not. Everybody
gets that if I had carneriorady disease, twenty nine percent
increased risk of death. If I had diabetes forty percent
increased risk of death.
Speaker 1 (25:34):
If I had hypertension twenty one percent increased risk of death.
Right here we get to the exercise.
Speaker 3 (25:41):
What about the INSIGHT's rental disease?
Speaker 1 (25:42):
Well, oh sorry, yeah, yeah, cool n stage renal disease.
Speaker 4 (25:45):
My kidneys are packing up and my hazard ratio is
two point seventy eight, So I'm one hundred and seventy
eight percent more likely to.
Speaker 1 (25:53):
Die than you in the next fifteen years.
Speaker 3 (25:55):
Right, yeah, what's the fir your kids?
Speaker 1 (25:58):
Yeah, exactly. But here's the thing.
Speaker 4 (26:00):
If you were below average, and what they did in
this low the lowest is the lowest twenty five percent,
then below average twenty five to fifty, then above average
fifty to seventy five, and then high the top twenty
five percent, and then elite. I think they carved the
top three out of the high It was two and
a half or three.
Speaker 3 (26:19):
Right, yeah.
Speaker 4 (26:22):
So if I'm low the lowest twenty five percent and
you're below average, my risk of death compared to yours
ninety five percent increase my hazard ratios one point ninety five.
This is like having diabetes, carnery art disease, and hypertension.
Speaker 1 (26:41):
That's the risk of me being low versus you being high.
But here's the ridiculous one.
Speaker 4 (26:46):
If you're elite and I'm low, I have a four
hundred and four percent increased risk of death compared to you.
That blows end stage renal disease out of the water.
In fact, you could have end stage adrenal disease, high pretension,
corny already to these diabetes and smoker, and you wouldn't
have to see the bloody risk factor of somebody low
versus heart.
Speaker 1 (27:07):
Yeah, like that's crazy.
Speaker 2 (27:08):
Yeah, it's a massive effect, and you take notice of
those as sort of that whole you know what counts
as a big effect in these studies that gets it. Interestingly, though,
there's a paper just come out this week around the
same thing, and I think it I never quite understand
these mend Ali and randomizations. Yes they use, but they
(27:29):
make a good point around VO two for its own sake,
because it's.
Speaker 3 (27:34):
At we go I need that number of the two max.
Speaker 2 (27:36):
But you know that they argue that actually it's probably
the best and most accurate proxy of overall how active
you are, you're sort of combined on well being. It's
a sort of weighted moving average of that as well.
So the more recent stuff counts, but it does have
quite a long history. And actually, if you sort of
(27:58):
low a look, there's a media to fixes on body composition, strength, strength, endurance,
some of.
Speaker 3 (28:05):
These other measures, those are actually the causal things.
Speaker 2 (28:08):
Rather than vi to itself being the main causal factor
in the science psych it's actually just a very repeatable,
accurate measurement that proxies, you know, much of all of
hormitic medicine in many ways. So that's I think that's
I quite like thinking about it that way. The way
that I don't understand their methods fully, by the way.
Speaker 3 (28:25):
But that's that's another story.
Speaker 1 (28:27):
I think that is a really good point. I mean
your veal too.
Speaker 4 (28:32):
It's not really something that you can cram for, you know,
I was, I was a cromer at university. I'm sure
you probably were right. So it's not something that you go,
I've got my vel to you. Next week, I'm going
to I'm going to train like a mad man for
a week. It is the best proxy of your overall
training history, I think, And that and there's.
Speaker 2 (28:54):
A well been layer as well over above training history
because your ability to recover from trying to get enough
sleep well enough, it's sort of built in so then
a bit as well. Yeah, so it's sort of like
a master measurement in some ways.
Speaker 3 (29:08):
You might think about it.
Speaker 2 (29:10):
I mean just wondering about it this morning when I
was coming up here thinking about that, you know, as
VO two actually just a proxy as a sort of
home more medic maths to measurement because you've got to
to achieve there in the long term. You've got you
can't be having a sleep stuff, You've got to be
eating in a reasonable way.
Speaker 3 (29:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (29:28):
Yeah, that's that's a very good point and it probably
plays into the next one where you know, next to
your veal two, one of the biggest predictors of longevity
is muscle strength. So and we see this in different research.
Some say it's muscle mass and others said strength. I
think mass is a proxy for strength, But for me,
(29:49):
the mechanism behind both strength and veal two is really
about let's talk about the hormetic mechanisms. Because exercise is
a stressor, right. Frank Booth showed fifteen years ago that
when you exercise. As soon as you start, you get
a big spike in stress response jenes. Right, so these
(30:11):
are the drivers of hormesis, and then there's an activation
of metabolic priority genes and then mitochondrial enzyme genes.
Speaker 1 (30:19):
But for me, I think the driver of a lot
of this are miokines.
Speaker 4 (30:26):
So some people who are familiar with this podcast will
have heard of but these are molecules that are released
from exercising muscle.
Speaker 1 (30:35):
We've known for decades.
Speaker 4 (30:36):
I mean when I went to my master's in exercise science,
my accounts, we were told helped to break down glucose
and fat and give the muscle energy and then help
in the remodeling to make them bigger, faster, stronger. We
now know that maokines get out into your circulation and
they have a positive impact on every single organ and
(30:59):
every organ system in the brain. But interestingly, from a
harmetic perspective, they activate the NRAF two and AR pathways, right,
So these are involved. These are critical pathways involved in
antioxidant defense at a cellular level and protection against inflammation.
Speaker 2 (31:20):
So yeah, it's so interesting that they do all the
signaling like just all over the place and specifically for
this type of thing and a different the SIME molecules
does the same signaling but somewhere else differently.
Speaker 4 (31:32):
For another you know, it's so yeah, the fact that
grant you know, the first markin was discovered in the
nineteen sixties.
Speaker 1 (31:41):
We now have identified more than.
Speaker 4 (31:43):
Six hundred MIO kinds, so molecules produced from muscles that
have signaling effects throughout the body, and we only know
what about sixty.
Speaker 1 (31:53):
Of them do.
Speaker 4 (31:54):
But we know they improve the health of your immune system,
your gastro intestinal system, to help your pancreas create insulin,
help your liver dispose your glutcose. They remold your bone
and blood vessels throughout your life. And in the brain
they trigger the release of BDNF that helps you create
new brain sales and protects the brain sales you have
against and veg VEGF that that helps.
Speaker 1 (32:16):
To grow that vascular network.
Speaker 4 (32:18):
So and a lot of it is mediated through these
stress response pathways. So for me, classic hormesis right there, I've.
Speaker 2 (32:30):
Been having these dreams. I don't know if you have
them or just lying and being thinking about this. So
I was imagining that I was like a nanosized vision
of me that I could travel around the body because
we're talking about these things. It's all very esotiric and
we've got these mechanisms and it makes sense that it's level.
But I'm just I mentioning, you know, you know the
cellular biochemistry. There's also things going on there. But you know,
when we I measure them in diagrams, it's not, of
(32:51):
course what they look like at all.
Speaker 1 (32:53):
Yes, exactly, And.
Speaker 2 (32:54):
I'm just like, what would it be like to be
inside the pancreas, I mean, randomly thinking about these things?
Speaker 3 (33:00):
Well, that's what reason that is.
Speaker 4 (33:05):
Actually that's quite interesting because this is how all this
shit happens, right, It is happening in the biochemistry. It's
happening at its cellular level. It's all the signaling stuff
that's actually going on. But let's give people, let's give
people some guidelines because I really want this to be
pretty practical, and so recommendations are around training, right, so
(33:30):
from a cardiovascular perspective.
Speaker 1 (33:32):
This is kind of more your bag than my bag.
Speaker 4 (33:36):
And talk to people a little bit about zone two
maphatone and you know the benefits of zone two and
then maybe some VO two max stuff, what like how
do we train for those different things?
Speaker 3 (33:50):
Yeah, so that's the.
Speaker 2 (33:53):
I think it's basically the way I can see of
that type of exercise. We're talking about this too, almost
completely different physiological effects of that exercise. One This is
the same too, which is I prefer done fasted or
without adding extra glucose really.
Speaker 3 (34:14):
And the thing about that is that it's activating, it's
returning insulin to basic.
Speaker 2 (34:19):
Levels, glucose to base levels, it's starting to now act
and get all the mechanisms of utopogy. And this is
essentially a catabolic process which is highly anti inflammatory and
very good for you. So you know, the trick there
is to keep the exercise very easy, and people find
(34:39):
this hard to do because for most people that's going
to be walking, some people make running or you know,
it's just conversation or you feel it you're finishing the
workout feeling invigorated. So just think about that anytime you
go working out, actually finishing this feeling good. And a
lot of people like to use heart rate to monitor that,
including myself. Off it's just an easy way of keeping
(35:01):
because you know the various a bit day to day
and you can cope with that with duration and whatnot.
So that's Mapatome's formula is one hundred and eighty beats
for a minute minus your age is about the upper limit.
Speaker 3 (35:13):
Of what we call the aerobic threshold.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
So it's you know, you've mentioned walking up the stairs
carrying a bag of grocer's where you first start to
catch any breath at all. It's not lap take thresholder
and a threshold we really starting to puff, and it's
just that first thing. You're just trying to stay under that.
And I think you can do several hours of that
in a day if you had to. Certainly you should
(35:36):
be doing several hours in a week.
Speaker 3 (35:38):
And this.
Speaker 2 (35:41):
Even if it fears down into a zone one, which
is even less than that. You know, okay, elite runners
may not benefit from walking except for for recovery, but
for most of us that's going to be good as well.
So I think you know that as we know, and
you're very good at doing guard and projects and these
(36:02):
types of things where you're just out all day.
Speaker 3 (36:05):
Cracking on with it and working.
Speaker 2 (36:09):
I really enjoyed cycling as sort of a middle ledge
man in life for a time. Coffee, So that's that's
the thing.
Speaker 4 (36:19):
And I think just for me, I really am a
good little thing for people to know about what how
much is too much? And you know, at the upper
end of zone two you should be able to talk
but not sing, right, So.
Speaker 1 (36:37):
If you.
Speaker 4 (36:39):
Are struggling to then hold a conversation, in our likelihood,
you've gone out of zone two and into zone three.
Speaker 1 (36:47):
I think that's pretty key.
Speaker 2 (36:48):
Yeah, And that that heart rate varies both within people
day to day and also just depending on your experience.
Like I'm fifty five and that methodtime one four the
eighty minuitas isn't correct for me at all. My aerobic
threat was at about one hundred and forty bats per minute,
and so I consider in the one thirties all day fine, and.
Speaker 3 (37:11):
That sort of thing.
Speaker 2 (37:11):
That other people are going to be in a different
space than that. You know, things just are different from
person to person, but you'll figure it out. It's you know,
it's not too hard to work with that. I think
the other end, though, that high intensity, which you've been
more into than me, which is you know, it's not
just it's actually highly pro inflammatory. So this is an
(37:34):
exercise that glucose is a primary fuel, and I think
you could even take some extra with you when you're
before we're doing that.
Speaker 3 (37:41):
It's brief, it's hard, and it's going.
Speaker 2 (37:46):
To push up that sort of two mats type thing,
but there's a whole different amount of signaling. And the
thing about, of course, this is the real hormetic part
of it, that this is highly stressful. The response is
briefly inflamma tree and then with appropriate recovery you're improving.
And I think, so now it's anabolic. So one top
fix is highly beneficial for its catabolic effects on mitochondrial
(38:10):
function and everything, and the other one is highly beneficial
because it's exact opposite of the anabolic.
Speaker 3 (38:16):
Yeah, so it's such an interesting thing about exercise.
Speaker 4 (38:20):
Yeah, at both ends of the scale it has benefits.
And I think for people the way I say, if
you're going to do VEO two max training, you know,
the classic stuff is intervals of between three and eight minutes,
and that that's probably dictated by your training history. But
at the end and you're going hard, you're going like
(38:41):
the hurt right now, oh absolutely, really really psychologically uncomfortable. Right,
So the idea is that the end of the three
minutes or the eight minutes, So if you're in an
eight minute versus a three minute.
Speaker 1 (38:54):
You're in a slightly lower pierce, but you should be
busted at the end of it, like like god, this
is fucking horrible. And then you rest for.
Speaker 4 (39:02):
About the equivalent amounts if you're doing a three minute
interval three minutes hard as and it's any bit of
equipment that you can be a rower across trainer or
a bike running running outside, and then.
Speaker 1 (39:15):
You rest for about three minutes. Now, if you're doing
eight minute.
Speaker 4 (39:17):
Intervals, I don't think you need eight minutes rest, right,
you need three to five minutes rest.
Speaker 1 (39:22):
But then you repeat those and you do three to
five of those.
Speaker 4 (39:25):
Now, Interestingly, some people don't respond tremendously well to that,
but they do respond to the.
Speaker 1 (39:34):
More classic Tobata shorter.
Speaker 4 (39:36):
One thirty thirty on, yeah yeah, yeah yeah, so that
and that's that is really horrible, right, I.
Speaker 1 (39:46):
Do those sorts of things on my versa climber thirty
on thirty off.
Speaker 4 (39:50):
It is freaking evil, right, and you are you know,
you do six to ten of those, but there's a
you know, if you do five of them, that's a
that's a ten minute workout, but it's hell, it's hell
on earth. But that will really move the needle around
your VO two max and all those hormonic stressors. I
(40:11):
think the key that I've learned over the years, and
a lot of it talking to you, is don't do
all of your exercise like that, because I have traditionally
done all of my I even do my strength training
like that. And actually, now let's talk about strength. So
for the average individual, you want to be doing two
to three full body weight workouts a week. Forget about
(40:36):
bodybuilding training muscle parts. I actually like thinking about movement patterns.
Particularly you want to be functional. Now, if you're an athlete,
this doesn't count, right, this is different. This is if
you want longevity. I like thinking about push, pull, bend, squat, lunge, rotate, right,
and then you have exercise around that. And I tend
(40:57):
to when I'm programming, I'll do like push, lunch, rotate, pull,
band squat right, or you know, try to alternately.
Speaker 3 (41:08):
Sort of cycle through those, like on each of those
and then come back again or something.
Speaker 1 (41:13):
Yeah, So what I will tend to do.
Speaker 4 (41:16):
So we've got you've got six different movement patterns, and
then I add I add a rehab one at the end, right,
So I do seven, and I do thirty seconds of work.
Speaker 1 (41:27):
So time under.
Speaker 4 (41:28):
Tension I like to think about rather than reps and
really emphasizing the eccentric portion. So I'll do thirty seconds
of work, ten seconds of rest, which isn't rest, it's
moved to the next station, thirty seconds of work. So
I do seven of those, and then I do that
four times, so I do a circuit.
Speaker 1 (41:47):
So there's okay, I'm going to go.
Speaker 2 (41:50):
So where I work here in my labor I've got
an awesome gum I'm going to do. I like this
time under the tension, but I'm going to do that.
Speaker 4 (41:56):
Yeah, And so that that is about sixteen seventy in
it workout. It's less than twenty minutes. But I'm getting
twenty eight sets of resistance training in there. And I'm
also activating my cardiovascar system. Because you're breathing out your arse,
you know you're going pretty hard, particularly when you're doing
the full body movements, the bends, the and the and
the squats.
Speaker 1 (42:16):
So I think that is a bit of a guide
for people how much.
Speaker 2 (42:22):
How much you're putting on, Like when you're doing the
a weighted part of it, they have close to getting
a failure.
Speaker 4 (42:28):
I am pretty much at failure at the end of
those thirty seconds, right, So I'm just sort of judging
it a bit.
Speaker 1 (42:34):
Like that, Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 4 (42:35):
Now, I will then I will then mix this up
where I will do specific strength stuff, right, So I'm
on a bit of a strength fee. So you'll find
that that that that's thirty seconds. You know, depending on
the exercise, you're getting ten.
Speaker 1 (42:51):
To fifteen reps.
Speaker 4 (42:52):
That that's kind of in the hypertrophy fees. And as
I said, you can lengthen the eccentric and you reduce
the reps. Then if you want to train strength, it's different. Right,
it's three to six rms.
Speaker 1 (43:06):
Like you can do one and two. But I don't
recommend that normal people do that.
Speaker 4 (43:10):
That's more for athletes because the injury risk when you're
doing a one red max is pretty high. So that
you pick a way that you can do for maximum
three to six that's going.
Speaker 1 (43:21):
To do the best in terms of strength. And then
you want more rest periods.
Speaker 4 (43:26):
So I will then tend to because I don't like
sitting around a lot, I will turn it out, yes,
so I would superst even when I'm doing strength, so
I might do chest back right and I'll do three RMS,
so i might do wait to chin ups or or
rose or something like that, and then i'll do a
bench press or a standing push press, and I'll do
(43:49):
three to six RM and I'll go chest back and
then I'll have a little bit of recovery and then
i'll go back.
Speaker 1 (43:55):
You want about two minutes rest before you.
Speaker 4 (43:58):
Go again, and to be very impatient with two minutes, right,
So sometimes I'll do a try set, I'll add something
else in and then i'll have by the time I
get back to my chest, say about two minutes have elapsed.
Speaker 3 (44:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (44:12):
So for people the superseit terms when you're doing you're
doing one exercise, which doesn't really think the other exercise
exactly the bridge space or something the other way, just
carry on the other.
Speaker 4 (44:23):
And for me that's all about efficiency, right, So if
you've got unlimited time, then you can do the classic routical.
I don't have unlimited times, so when I'm doing the
strength stuff, I tend to do super sets or try sets, right,
and then there's all sorts of extra stuff that you
can add in that I think is beyond the scope
of this.
Speaker 1 (44:41):
When we're turning. This is just really the key thing.
And then if you want to be training for power
and I can't pronounce that word power pow e R.
Speaker 4 (44:51):
People think I'm talking about golf when I say muscular power.
The key thing that people don't understand is that's quite
light and it's fast movement. So it's plyometrics right, it's jumping,
but it's also when you're doing a weight, it's about
thirty percent of your rep max. So it's only about
thirty percent of the weight that you could left. So
say you're going to standard standing cable press. It's actually
(45:15):
quite light, but it's really explosive and you need a
fur bit of rest between the par stuff. Right, So
that I think is an overall not exhaustive, but I
think that gives people an overall guide around. So for cardio,
you want to do a bit of Zone two, then
you want to do the hard horrible stuff around your
VIEO two max intervals, then your strength. Two to three
(45:37):
full body circuit training sessions a week will get you
a really good level of functional strength that plays in
beautifully to longevity.
Speaker 2 (45:48):
I don't want to be driving the edge or content
of your podcast, no, but I reckon now it's a
good time to introduce something we weren't planning to talk about,
which is around protein. Oh yes, well, I just think
there's a couple of things here, and there's a couple
of core studies just come out. So first of all,
(46:08):
it's all good and while having you know, ormoned stress,
especially for muscle, but you are going to need some
of the actual building blocks for that, and you know,
the essential mental acids are a pretty important part of that.
So you know, eating protein is important. But but I reckon,
there's too this is this is there's the I think
we did talk.
Speaker 3 (46:29):
About this, the stuff that they do with the they
feed the radio label phenol analine.
Speaker 1 (46:33):
To the cows and then they know we haven't talked
about this, No go ahead.
Speaker 3 (46:38):
So these are these Dutch.
Speaker 2 (46:40):
Guys, and so this is an expensive thing, like a
million million euros for a cow, right, So you want
to figure out how and what happens to ingested protein
and you know, how does it end up in the muscle,
what's the sort of rate of turnover, and you know,
how does stress affected and all that sort of stuff.
So you can't just so you've got to do something
of radio label amino acids. You can't just seat them directly,
(47:03):
because you're not really getting them from foods. To tell
you the story, So they feed these things to a
cow and milk the cow or get them not powder.
They bchel the cow, get mints and steak and stuff,
and then you can eat the mental steak or the
milk powder, and you can do studies about them.
Speaker 3 (47:19):
Bioposite people's muscles and.
Speaker 2 (47:20):
Look at protein synthesis, which is pretty crazy for a start, right,
and so the classic fair study is just getting a
Uni student and putting a cast on one of their
legs for a week, so they've got one muscle's completely isolated.
The other it's the left leg as mobilize rightly, it
serves as it's control. End of a week, you know,
(47:42):
feed them some of that milk powder, biop see the
muscle and sort of look at the protein synthesis and
you see that it's impaired by about thirty five percent
just with the So it's interesting for a start, yes,
but then also in the active muscle you look at, well,
what's the rate of the synthesis. You know, what does
this mean for entire the entire muscle protein renewal and
(48:04):
synthesis of the muscle and they go, oh, yeah, well
sort of every three months or so, the entire muscle
is turning over.
Speaker 4 (48:09):
That that's really important for people to understand, grant, right,
is that a lot of people think your muscle is
just your muscle, and it is. Your muscle is not
the same muscle as that was three months ago. It's
a completely new muscle.
Speaker 2 (48:23):
Well, and then anyway, so just to carry that on,
they had somehow are studying there's a bunch of people
with epilepsy who are getting some brain surger, and well,
we could do the same feeding study. And then now
because we've got access, we could do a little biopsy
of brain to sure and look at and they're like, oh, yeah,
well that looks like because it's such a meniabolical actor.
But augum, the whole thing's already turning over every six weeks.
Speaker 3 (48:45):
Right, that's an incredible thing for the brain, right, find
that an interesting Yeah? Yeah, And then the same group's
done that.
Speaker 2 (48:55):
I think you probably heard this study just in the
last couple of months, is that they actually started feeding
people after exercise either twenty five grams of available protein
or one hundred grams. And you know, the eIDAS are well,
you know, really, twenty five grands is sort of the
maxim you're going to get for protein synthesism.
Speaker 3 (49:14):
More than that's not going to affect muscle proteins.
Speaker 2 (49:17):
And actually one hundred gramds not only has a bigger effect,
but keeps going for you know, twelve hours later, it's
still got an effect twelve eyes.
Speaker 1 (49:26):
Wow, that's really interesting.
Speaker 3 (49:30):
So that's why you'll wrap on that stuff. Not my research,
but so interesting, right, Yeah.
Speaker 4 (49:34):
It is interesting, And you do bring up a really
good point I must not even mention. It is that
you need more protein than you think, and as particularly
as you get older, we lose muscle protein synthesis. Now
let's bring that back to muscle mass and strength. It
is we lose muscle mass at the rear of three
(49:56):
to eight percent per decade, and it accelerates, and it
is not unusual for somebody to hit the ears of
seventy five and they've lost up to half of all
the muscle mass. What that means for people is you've
just lost fifty percent of the ability for MYO kinds
to actually do their work.
Speaker 1 (50:17):
So for me, that's really really key.
Speaker 3 (50:19):
Yeah, and so interesting, isn't it. Yeah?
Speaker 4 (50:21):
And this muscle protein synthesis. It decays as you eat,
so they now wreckon that. These recommended guidelines which used
to be you know it was the RDA was zero
point eight grams of protein per kilogram.
Speaker 1 (50:36):
Of body weight. Nowhere near enough.
Speaker 4 (50:39):
It's double it, yeah, double it at least, and especially
as you're getting older.
Speaker 1 (50:44):
You want to be up to two grams per kilogram
of body weight.
Speaker 4 (50:47):
Now the guide that I had used was and forty
grams of protein is what I was aiming for after
I do a workout, and about forty grams of protein
at each meal. But for me, you have to have
that four times a day if you want to optimize
protein synthesis. And this is what most people don't realize
Grant right, is that we have a fur chunk of
(51:10):
storage capacity for glucose in terms of liver glycogen and
muscle glycogen. We've got an almost limitless storage capacity for fat.
But you actually don't store amino acids. And amino acids
are so critical for cellular functions. So at night, and
particularly if you haven't had enough protein, and especially at
(51:30):
dinner at night, your body is breaking down your muscle
every single night to get those amino acids to give
them to the cells to keep the cells going right.
That they are essential building blocks of life. And most
people do not eat anywhere near enough protein. And also
if you are vegetarian or vegan, it is harder to
(51:53):
get the protein. Now some people are very diligent about it,
but the average person who's vegetari and or vegan will
definitely not have enough pro team.
Speaker 1 (52:00):
So they've got to really think about focusing on protein.
Speaker 3 (52:05):
You know, they hey, can you do this on Australia, Like,
we're just it here. I've got a petition who's on
a farm and that one of.
Speaker 2 (52:11):
The cows was just charging your and tripping your against
the fence. So they knocked it off and we got
a quarter of it, which was but you can buy
like and you say when they call it, you know,
we'll get half a beast the other thing in Ausie
and you can just like get a.
Speaker 4 (52:23):
Load of Yeah, there's there's there's there's a lot of
stuff now from from the farmer direct where you can
just buy a massive amount. I mean, Cardie's dad has
has caries up at his farm and occasionally he would
butcher one and we get a bucket load of meat
which was was fantastic. The vegans aren't going to like
this little bit of the conversation, but anywhere.
Speaker 1 (52:45):
This is the end of Part one.
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Intentionally Disturbing
Join me on this podcast as I navigate the murky waters of human behavior, current events, and personal anecdotes through in-depth interviews with incredible people—all served with a generous helping of sarcasm and satire. After years as a forensic and clinical psychologist, I offer a unique interview style and a low tolerance for bullshit, quickly steering conversations toward depth and darkness. I honor the seriousness while also appreciating wit. I’m your guide through the twisted labyrinth of the human psyche, armed with dark humor and biting wit.