Mastering Your Mind, with Dr Adam Fraser

In this riveting episode of my chat with Dr. Adam Fraser, we delve into the intricacies of performance, resilience, and the human condition. Adam is a researcher and fellow corporate speaker (and one of the best) and a bloody good, down-to-earth bloke. Through humour and profound insights, we cover a multitude of topics, including the  coping mechanisms for stress, the intersection of physiology and psychology, and the challenges faced by modern-day educators.

What You'll Learn:

The Power of Reflection and Reset

Dr. Fraser introduces the concept of the "third space," a transitional gap that is crucial for shifting mindsets between different aspects of life. This framework—reflect, rest, reset—helps individuals leave behind previous stressors and prepare mentally for what's next.

Understanding Mental Challenges

Explore the metaphor of "Kevin," a character that encapsulates negative inner dialogue. This concept, derived from ACT therapy principles, helps in recognising and rationalising self-doubts and unhelpful thought patterns.

The Importance of Consistency

Discover the consistent habits of elite performers, such as those in special forces and top athletes, and how these disciplines can be translated into everyday life for sustained success.

Navigating Work and Home Life

The conversation touches upon the impact of increased remote work on personal boundaries, emphasising practical strategies to create clear separations between professional and personal spaces.

Key Takeaways:

• Reflection, Rest, Reset: Implementing a structured approach to transitioning between activities can enhance emotional well-being and productivity.
• Managing Inner Dialogue: Understanding and accepting negative thoughts without allowing them to dictate actions can lead to more constructive behaviours.
• Consistency Is Key: Continuous small efforts in the right direction are more impactful than sporadic grand gestures.
• Creating Boundaries in Remote Work: Being intentional about starting and stopping work can help maintain a work-life balance, crucial in current times.

Resources:

• Book on "Kevin": Dr. Fraser is working on a book detailing the "Kevin" concept, which promises to offer practical insights into managing inner dialogue.
• Secondary Trauma in Educators: New research by Dr. Fraser highlights the growing phenomenon of secondary trauma experienced by educators, offering solutions to mitigate its effects.

Dr. Adam Fraser's resources and books are an enriching source of knowledge for anyone looking to enhance their personal and professional life. For more insights, you can visit Dr. Adam Fraser's website.

Support and Share:

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Share this episode with someone who can benefit from a renewed perspective on health, parenting, or emotional resilience. Join the conversation and help spread awareness about the importance of resilience in facing life's uncertainties.

01:56 Professional Backgrounds and Achievements

03:40 Insights on PhD Research

06:53 The Importance of Physiology and Psychology

10:15 The Third Space Concept

14:10 Impact of COVID on Work-Life Balance

22:19 Managing the Inner Critic: Kevin

31:07 Practical Steps for Psychological Flexibility

35:04 A Hopeful Future with My Daughter

35:56 The Intelligence of Girls

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:08):
Doctor Adam Freezer. Welcome to the podcast.

Speaker 2 (00:11):
It's very good to be here, mister Taylor. Actually, the
last time I heard your name, I was in the
Melbourne Conis Club and this announcement comes over and says,
if Paul Taylor is in the lounge, could he please
proceed to his flight. It's fully boarded and awaiting his arrival.
And I stood up, going where is he? And I

(00:34):
watch you just casually stroll out of the lounge, not
a care in the world. I would have been sprinting that.

Speaker 1 (00:45):
You were like, yeah, man, you know you kind of
wait till they call you name.

Speaker 3 (00:52):
Bro, I'll tell you.

Speaker 1 (00:54):
I'll tell you another story actually on that there was
a mere to mine who was over from the UK
for a while here, and we were driving to the
airport and I was last minute dot com as you show, right,
and we're still five minutes away from Melbourne Airport and
it's half an hour before the flight, and Jesus is like,

(01:17):
what are you doing to we just we just need
to turn and go home, and I'm like, we're bye.

Speaker 3 (01:22):
So I pulled in. Luckily enough, I went into the
valley parking, right.

Speaker 4 (01:26):
Straight up the stairs, straight through security.

Speaker 1 (01:30):
And just walked onto the flight before they actually called
Arnim that time.

Speaker 4 (01:33):
He couldn't believe it because in the UK, yeah, exactly,
tis you an R to get through security in the UK?

Speaker 1 (01:41):
Right, it's horrendous, But my listeners will not be surprised
by that story. Thanks for throwing me under the bus,
your bastard, So ma for the listeners. And you are
you're a fellow speaker actually, so you have your PhD.

(02:04):
I'm about to get my PhD, so I'm just about
to submit it.

Speaker 4 (02:11):
But you've been you know, we're.

Speaker 1 (02:13):
Both professional speakers. You met on the speaking circuit. You've
been doing it a bit longer than me. I've got
one best selling book, you've got four best selling books.
I've done a little bit of TV. You've done a
lot of TV, right, So you're kind of a little
bit like my big brother in the speaking circuit.

Speaker 4 (02:30):
But and actually one of those people.

Speaker 1 (02:34):
Who helps other speakers out right and talks to them about, hey,
is there anything that I can do to help? And
you know, we chat about content and those sorts of
things rather than the speakers who are you know very
much like hold on to all their own stuff for
steal your stuff for those sorts of people pride and

(02:54):
one thing.

Speaker 2 (02:55):
Where I win saw you at the Happiness in Its
Causes conference a while ago, and you only had like
twenty minutes and you came out and slayed like you
were the best session of the day. And we have
very very different styles. But at one point you were
talking about like a lot of similar stuff to what
I talk about in terms of, you know, the content

(03:18):
and the focus, but it was just it was so different,
like the average person wouldn't have picked it up, but
it was just like there are some rule we have
some really good parallels in some of the work that
we do, and very similar beliefs, you know, and certainly
our attitude towards research and science is very aligned.

Speaker 3 (03:39):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (03:39):
Absolutely, Look, tell us I tell the listeners about your PhD, right,
because it's in a pretty interesting area that then has
sort of spawned what you talk about to Yeah.

Speaker 2 (03:51):
Yeah, So I my undergraduate was biomedical science, which is
a blend of psychology and physiology. And one thing I
was trying to work out I was going to do
and I was going to go down the psychology path,
and then they told me how many hours of counseling
I had to do. And I was like, oh, screw that.
I'm not sitting in a room listening to people's problems

(04:12):
for that long. So I went down the sort of
research arm and my PhD looked at and this is
far out. Oh god, I kin't of remember. This is
early two thousands, how our lifestyle factors affected a group
of unhealthy middle aged men. But we measured from quality

(04:33):
of life, happiness, cellular function, insolent sensitivity, you know, like strength,
all this stuff. So what we were looking at is
just if we change someone's lifestyle, what gets better? So
that was and the whole thing is we were looking
at both resistance training and aerobic training, as well as nutrition.

(04:58):
But yeah, the HD was kind of ahead of its time,
like not through any design but just through luck and
if and what we showed is a dramatic increase in
happiness through exercise. But it was like the first study
to show that. And if I had a had that,
if I had had the foresight, like I'd be world
famous today if because other people sort of picked that

(05:22):
up and ran with it, but I just I didn't.
I didn't recognize it at the time. But yeah, it
was a good PhD. I'm in it put me in
therapy and I kind of had a breakdown after it,
but other than that, it was fine. Yeah, have you
scheduled yours?

Speaker 4 (05:35):
You got kids, you.

Speaker 2 (05:36):
Don't have time for that.

Speaker 1 (05:38):
No, No, exactly, that's right, that's right. I'm hopefully going
to submit at the end of the week.

Speaker 2 (05:43):
Actually, that's a massive achievement, Like, congratulations, the fact that
you rundlessness, you're doing all that, you're raising kids, you're
swearing at people on stage like you're amazing.

Speaker 3 (05:58):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (05:58):
Man, there's one thing submitted and there's another one getting
it actually approved by the external examiner.

Speaker 3 (06:04):
So let's just watched this.

Speaker 1 (06:06):
But actually, interestingly, it's in a very similar area to yours.
It's it's a psychophysiological approach to cognitive fitness, which is
kind of performance on depression.

Speaker 2 (06:17):
Right, Yes, I mean I want to talk to you
about your PhD, but you just supposed to ask the
questions the other way.

Speaker 1 (06:28):
But yeah, look, I'm sure we I'm sure we will
back and forth. And word is really I mean, obviously
your PhD spawneded, but were there any other moments along
the way, just from you being a speaker that that
really brought home that strong interaction between physiology and psychology, right.

(06:53):
I think we're both big believers in this two way
interaction between physiology and psychology.

Speaker 2 (07:00):
Yeah, and probably people listening to this won't realize how
separate those two worlds were up till recently. And you know,
podcasts like yours and researchers like you really understand that.
But for many years, particularly when I went through my undergraduate,
we treated those two things as totally separate and they
never really affected each other. But I mean, it is

(07:23):
so critical and and so much of the just the
basic physiology around sleep around you know, fatigue management, recovery,
all those things, you just can't get away from them
because they're just the absolute bedrock that everything else is
built on. Like you talk about ability to handle pressure,
capacity to think about leaders My gosh, that's a tough job.

(07:48):
And just having that really strong base of physiology that
allows you to respond in a constructive, healthy way is
so critical. And I look at you know, one of
the pieces of work that we both do that's very
similar is the stuff around act or psychological flexibility, and
that requires huge levels of self awareness and cognition, and

(08:13):
you just can't do that if you're not in a
good physical space. So yeah, those two worlds I see
are just so so linked.

Speaker 1 (08:22):
Yeah, absolutely, I mean we talk, we currently talk about
the fundamentals, like if you want to be a sustainable
peak performer, and I think that's the key word, right,
because there's a lot of business.

Speaker 3 (08:36):
Leaders out there who are.

Speaker 1 (08:38):
Peak performers, but they're headed towards Bonotte pretty quickly. And
you have seen them and I've seen them. But if
you want to be sustainable, you've got to get your
foundations right of exercise, of sleep, of good nutrition, hydration,
you're all.

Speaker 4 (08:55):
That recovery stuff.

Speaker 1 (08:56):
Because if you don't have that basis, how can can
you expect your brilland to work well in a sustainable
manner without it's just imploding.

Speaker 2 (09:05):
Yeah, And like I mean, you asked me before as
a speaker, do you see things? I was in Broken
Hill doing some work out there, and there was a
leader like stuff had really hit the fan, and there
was a leader who had to take on so much
and she was just out of a mind. Even trying
to have a conversation with her. She was just all
over the place. And I never kind of pull people

(09:27):
aside and go, oh, I want to give you some advice,
like you don't want to be that guy. But I
said to her, Hey, after this session, I need to
have a serious talk to you. And I just went, hey,
I'm really worried about you because I just don't think
you can keep this up. And here's what I'm seeing.
And she was kind of like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I
know what you're saying, but I just got to get
through this period. And then you know what I found

(09:49):
is she had a complete breakdown and end up in hospital,
like she just imploded one day, and yeah, it was
you could see it coming them all away. So that
basic stuff around recovery and all those habits that we
know we should have are just truly foundational.

Speaker 4 (10:11):
So let's talk about practical stuff, right.

Speaker 1 (10:16):
So before we even get to that recovery and all
those foundations, it's really about when someone goes home from
work that's shifting over.

Speaker 4 (10:29):
And you've written a brilliant, award winning.

Speaker 1 (10:31):
Book called the Third Space, so it's a concept that's
resonated with pretty much everybody who's read it. Explain to
us what the third space is, and you know how
you came up with it and why you think it's
critical for sustainable peak performance. And just and actually for

(10:52):
most people just to be surviving in today's world.

Speaker 2 (10:54):
Yeah, and really it kind of as most of the
stuff I come up with, I came up with a
by accident. So we were doing a lot of work
with the military. When I was at university, we had
only one of a few climate chambers, so we could
do some stuff with the military where it's forty degrees,
it's one hundred percent humidity, they've got to run on
a treadmill like. So the military loved us, and I

(11:17):
was just hanging out with these people and chatting. And
I had a couple of mates that were in the ESAs,
and one thing I would ask them is what's the
hardest part about being a soldier or you know, in
special forces? And all of them said coming home is
the hardest part. And just what they talked about is how,

(11:38):
you know, for the first two weeks they'd just fight
with their family before they were kind of acclimatized. And
it just really made me think about that transition. And then,
you know, I had an interaction with a CEO who
talked about how he literally built a new entrance into
his home so he would go into his room, shower,
get changed and then go down and see the family.

(12:00):
And then I spoke to an expert in high performance
tennis players and he talked about the transition between points
being the most important. So what just kept coming up
is how we move from one thing to the next
is vitally important, like the physiology we bring, the mindset
we bring, and I just kept seeing it everywhere. So

(12:23):
for people listening to this kind of the first space
is what you're doing now, second space what you're about
to do, and the third space is that transitional gap.
And what we just look at is, well, is that
gap critical? And what we found with high performers is
it's vital. So what we do in that gap to
leave what we've just done behind, but most importantly get

(12:45):
our mindset right for what we're about to go into.
So whether it's one meeting to the next or you know,
I'm sure you do it. Like before I walk on stage,
I need that third space to get my head in
the game and to get really focused. So I have
a process that I go through. But even like I'm
talking to you now, which is awesome and fun, and

(13:06):
I don't get to see you very often, so it's
really good. But in a minute. I've got to go
home to two teenage tortoise. Man. That is not fun
and not enjoyable, and I'm in the trenches man. Oh
so I've got to go home and I've got to
be empathetic and I've got to be caring and they're
probably going to be giving me a bit of attitude.

(13:26):
So it's almost like I've got to prepare myself for
that next environment. So that's what this concept of the
third space is about. And whether it's the most popular application,
is that transition from work to home, whether we're working
at our desk, spare room, commuting, just how do we

(13:47):
shift gears between the work mentality and the home mentality
and too often we bring the day home with this
and it's been a bad day and we take it
out on the people that we live with. So yeah,
that's what that concept looks at. Whether it's a transition
between a meeting or you know, it's a big transition
like a different environment. That's that's what the concepts are.

Speaker 1 (14:10):
And then I has COVID shifted that right and that
increase working from home because you can see how there
would be there would be one number one a clear
stimulus when you're coming home. That's kind of like, okay,
this is a reminder. Now I'm shifting in and you're

(14:32):
going from one environment to the other, Like how is
that different from walking out from the home office into
the living room, And often the home office is a
corner of the living room.

Speaker 2 (14:43):
I got more emails about this concept during COVID than
I ever have, and what people just sent me emails going, man,
I've had to apply this concept because when I mean,
we did a lot of research during COVID, and the
thing we is people said I missed my commute. Like
no one said I missed the physicality of it, like

(15:05):
I miss sitting in traffic, or I don't miss being
pressed up against a sweaty guy in a train. But
what I miss is was like a punctuation mark. It
was a symbol of you know, I'm moving between two
different worlds. But now that so many people work in
the home, what we found is when we work from home,
we work longer, longer, It is far far harder to

(15:28):
turn off. And what happens is we tend to work
into our personal time, either physically or mentally, like we're
still in that mode. So what people said, like, even
one guy just went oh, during COVID, I would get
I would get dressed for work. I would get in
the car, I'd go to a coffee shop, get the coffee,

(15:51):
drive back home, and when I walked in the house,
I went, right, I'm at work. At the end of
the day, I would leave, like I put on gym
gear and I'd go to a local park and walk
around the park. And then when I came home, it's like, right,
I'm a mom, I'm a dad, I'm a partner parent, whatever.
And even one guy, an executive I know from a bank,

(16:12):
he rang me and said, oh, man, you wouldn't believe it.
We tried that, you know, homeschooling, and he said that
was some sort of cruel and unusual punishment. It was
just chaos. We're yelling at the kids, they're yelling at us.
And he said, I reminded me of that concept, and
he said the next week, I literally got dressed for work,

(16:32):
made the kids put their school uniforms on, and we
walked around the block, came in the house and it's like, kids,
you're at school, do your lessons? Where at work? And
then at the end of the day, they would get
dressed out of their clothes and just go for a
little walk, then come back in and we're a family.
And he just talked about even just drawing those marks

(16:52):
in the day did so much to help our behavior
in our mindset. So yeah, COVID really that's led to
a resurgence of this.

Speaker 1 (17:03):
Yeah, I like to at the end of the working day,
if I'm working from home, or if I've been out
and I come back in, the first thing I do
is I get changed into my exercise gear because for.

Speaker 4 (17:15):
Me two reasons.

Speaker 1 (17:16):
Number one, it's a it's a shift from work to
home environment, but it also is a subconscious trigger to
move more. Right, because lots of people come home and
they get into their bloody pajamas and full line. Yeah,
the prime the priming is sit on your arse and
grab a bottle of wine. Right, So, what are one

(17:38):
or two things that that people can do to make
that transition better. I mean, you you've talked about a
few things that some people might go, Fuck, I'm not
gonna go out and go round the block.

Speaker 4 (17:49):
But whatever.

Speaker 1 (17:50):
But what are a couple of simple techniques that people
can actually use to harness this third space so that
they're not bringing work into their person.

Speaker 2 (18:00):
Yeah, I mean, look what we found is a good
transition from work to home. Have three elements to it,
so reflect, rest, reset. So the reflect piece is just
shut the day down, so just reflect on it. But
also if you can reflect on the good parts of
the day. So how I do it is as I

(18:21):
start to walk to my car to drive home, I'll
think about the day, had a couple of great meetings.
You know, I'm going to reflect on the conversation with you.
What could I have done better? What was good about it?
So just kind of shut the day down, but in
a constructive not oh that was shit and screwed that up.
So then the next phase is rest, which is just
do anything that focuses your mind on one thing. So

(18:45):
you could do deep breathing, you could do listen to
a podcast, like I'm gonna I've only got a short drive,
so I'll just crank some music and you know, just
enjoy the music as I drive home. So that's rest,
and then re set is literally you're going to almost
visualize like you're an athlete. So when I walked through
that door, what kind of husband do I want to be?

(19:08):
What kind of dad do I want to be. So
if I'm met with attitude from my daughters, how do
I be compassionate? Or how do I be playful and
sort of diffuse it with humor. It's thinking about well,
what do I want to achieve in that environment? So
that reflectress reset is the perfect transition. But the whole

(19:29):
thing about this concept is super portable. Like we were
working with paramedics. Man, have you ever done any work
with them?

Speaker 4 (19:36):
I am yeah.

Speaker 1 (19:38):
I actually did some basic paramedic training when I was
doing helicopter search and rescue, so we had to be
and in my role, we were semi triann paramedic and
we had the span.

Speaker 3 (19:49):
We did four weeks training.

Speaker 1 (19:51):
And part of that was being in the guys with
the ambulance drivers, a tough kid.

Speaker 2 (20:00):
What we did is we taught them this strategy, but
we weren't arrogant enough to go and here's how you're
going to implement it. We just taught them the principles
and then we said, all right, in a couple of months,
we're going to come back to you, and what we
need is how have you used at what worked, what
didn't work? And there's a rural group who got together
after the presentation. And one thing they talked about is

(20:25):
they will go home after a shift. They're still in
their clothes and they might be running late and they've
got to take a kid to footy training. And they're
standing on the sideline at footy training in their paramedics
outfit and people come up and go, oh, what happened
with that accident the other day or what's going on
and they're still talking about work. And they came up
with a campaign called get out of the Green. Now

(20:47):
their uniform's green. And they said there's two steps. It's
kind of like what you do. You leave your boots
at the door, like the boots don't come in, and
the first thing you do is go to your room
and you peel that day off, like you take off
the identity. And they said it's a symbolistic thing, but
it's also a mindset shift. So you can really do

(21:10):
you can really do anything that works for you. I mean,
people listening to this take it, play around with it.
Like one things my wife and I will do is
go for a walk and then when we come back,
that's like parenting time, you know, time with the kids.
But even like as I go to home, one of
the things I focus on and it might sound negative,

(21:32):
but it works really well is when I walk in
the door, I just think how many more years have
I got with my girls, like teen and twelve, and
it has flowing and I just go, Man, don't be
a douchebag, like just enjoy it for even the crappy parts.
Still just get into it, be present, really try and

(21:55):
make the most of it because it's going to go
within a blink of an eye. So really you can
just use any think that fits into that that gets
a better outcome.

Speaker 3 (22:04):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (22:04):
But I love the idea of reflect, rest, and reset
and people can can play within those things and that
you know, you then talked about transitioning and visualizing who
you want to be.

Speaker 4 (22:19):
So let's talk about Kevin.

Speaker 2 (22:21):
Oh, Kevin. Yeah. So I mean where this came from
is both you and I are fans of ACT therapy
or some people refer to it as psychological flexibility, But basically,
I mean Steve Hayes, a researcher from the US, kind
of came up with this different view of how we

(22:42):
manage our thoughts and emotions, and away from that, I
have to attack and get rid of my negative thoughts
and emotions too. Well, they're just information that comes into me. Like,
they're not me. I don't have to follow them, they're
not commands. They're just how I perceive the world. And
rather than I have to stop them or get rid

(23:02):
of them, how do I accept them? But you know,
do the action that's going to improve my life or
live a line to my values or achieve this goal
that I'm after. So what I found, and I'll get
your opinion on this too, is trying to explain act
to people when there's six components to act and one

(23:25):
of them is self as concept and you say that
to someone, they go, what the hell does that mean?
So what I've really struggled with is how do I
teach people this new science. And I was doing a
piece of research looking at courage and we interviewed a
circus troop who performed without safety gear. And first question

(23:51):
I asked them is do you have negative thoughts when
you walk out on stage? And all of them said,
of course, we do, Like there is never a performance
where you're complete confident. You're always worried about something going wrong.
And I said, well, how do you manage those negative thoughts?
And the head of the troop Catherine, she goes, do
you mean Kevin? And I'm like, I don't know who
Kevin is, but like, how do you manage your negative thoughts?

(24:13):
And she said, yeah, that's Kevin. I'm like, who the
hell's Kevin? And what they had done is created a
character in their head called Kevin. Because what they worked
out without any psychology, just with experience and common sense,
is they said, man, we've been trying to get rid
of that voice our whole life and it's just not
going away. So how do we manage that voice? How

(24:35):
do we kind of make peace with that voice? And
what they picture is that we have a part of
our brain that tries to put us off for tries
to bring us undone, and that's Kevin, and that Kevin's
like a radio in the background. We don't really pay
him a lot of attention. He's there, but he doesn't
get to run the show. And so what they had

(24:56):
and what they would do is they'd have a little
huddle before they went out and they'd say to each
other house keV and you might go, Kevin's under control,
got him on a tight leash, but I might go
far out in how we put that new catch in.
All day, Kevin's just been saying I'm going to drop
someone tonight. So they go, all right, let's manage Kevin.
And I walked away from it going that is such

(25:19):
a beautiful way to represent. And you call it the gremlin,
but we h's part of our brain that goes, you're
not good enough, you suck, you're a terrible parent. You know,
why would everyone book you as a speaker? You don't
know what you're doing. And rather than going oh, I
shouldn't say that to myself, it's like, well, that's Kevin.

(25:41):
Kevin's a bit of a douche. But I don't let
Kevin run the show. And it's almost like a blazinus
or an indifference of yeah, yeah, that's Kevin. And you know,
I have taught this to a few people, and I
taught it to some senior partners in a professional services
firm and they came back for the second workshop and

(26:01):
they're like, oh, we bloody love Kevin. And I'm like,
what do you mean? And they said, man, we've been
talking about door month. Like before a big pitch, we
will say to each other, what's your Kevin saying? And
they'll go, oh, far out Kevin's saying that if the
client asked this question, I'm going to screw it up.
And what they were talking about is just you know,

(26:23):
they made a lot of jokes, but they said, it's
actually made us vulnerable, and it's made vulnerability okay, because
it's a character. It's not us.

Speaker 3 (26:30):
Yeah, that's the cool.

Speaker 2 (26:32):
Thing, isn't it. And I mean you had some pretty
big egos in that room and them starting to be
vulnerable where they just they would say to each other
far out, man, Kevin's kicking my ass right now, and
they would talk about it. So, yeah, that's what Kevin's about.
How do we manage that voice?

Speaker 1 (26:52):
And it's interesting, isn't it, Because when you get a
bit little bit deeper into the psychology that Kevin, you know,
the genesis of Kevin is from your early years and
that those life experiences and sometimes the stuff that Kevin
says served.

Speaker 4 (27:13):
You well in the past but is no longer serving
you well. Right.

Speaker 1 (27:18):
That's the key thing is to work out when when
did Kevin stop being helpful for me or what specific
situation would Kevin be helpful for me?

Speaker 2 (27:30):
And that's the key is not go, oh, Kevin's a douchebag,
just go, well, what's Kevin trying to tell me here?
Or you know what I found with people that really
use that, they get to the point where they go, yeah,
when I screw up, Kevin says this, like there's a
patterner of behavior to Kevin. Kevin hates uncertainty, Kevin hates

(27:51):
when you know, I'm vulnerable, I'm putting myself out there.
So it's almost like they recognize these patterns and they go,
I know what Kevin's going to say before even says it.
So it's just kind of this this but you don't
want to seem as a bad thing because sometimes what
Kevin says to us is because someone's mean to us

(28:11):
when we're five, or because our dad freaking yelled at
us and scared the hell out of us. Like he
comes from all different like there's all different things that
cause him and he's not a he's not a bad
part of us, but he tends to lead us astray
or into dysfunctional behaviors.

Speaker 1 (28:33):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, And I think the key is not
to get in a bloody argument with Kevin, right, and
I think this is no that's right, and this is
a bit of a difference I find between CBT and ACT.
And you know, with CBT and the abcdes the active
eating event, the belief system, the consequences and end.

Speaker 4 (28:54):
The d is the disputation right right, war.

Speaker 3 (28:57):
Is the evidence for this? Well, often Kevin will go.

Speaker 4 (29:00):
Well, fuck it, hell, I'll give you evidence.

Speaker 1 (29:02):
You're ship because of this, this, this, and this right
and look at you, you're facts right.

Speaker 4 (29:08):
So for me, it's it's not it's not is Kevin
raider as he wrot?

Speaker 1 (29:13):
Is Kevin helpful right now in this situation with the
outcome that I'm after?

Speaker 2 (29:18):
And and that's the key thing is people say to me,
are Kevin's bad or Kevin's that negative voice? And I'm like,
not necessarily because it could be a positive voice. So
I've I've lost two good mates to suicide throughout my
life and it is just one of the shittiest, Like

(29:40):
it is so fricking horrible. There is just nothing good
that anyway. So, and each of those friends had had
stuff that had happened to them and they never talked
about it and they kept it inside and it basically
just blew up and literally killed them. And you know,

(30:03):
Kevin can be in those situations particularly if men, if
they're struggling with their mental health, Kevin will come in
and go Now you'll be all right. You just push through,
you know, and you're tough, you can handle this. So
it's actually a positive voice, but it's leading you to dysfunction.
So it's not whether the voice is positive or negative.

(30:23):
It's does the voice improve your situation, like you just said,
or does it make it worse? And that's the piece
about Kevin is he tries to lead you away from
what's important to you or what would be a good move.

Speaker 3 (30:37):
Yeah, yeah, very cool. I like that.

Speaker 1 (30:40):
And look, the first step in this whole psychological flexibility game,
because that's what we're talking about, it is kind of
that self awareness, right and being a war of the
voice in your head. Now, then when you recognize Kevin,
you realize Kevin's not helpful. Give us one or two
things that people can then do so that they can

(31:03):
get in a better frame of mind and achieve a
better outcome.

Speaker 2 (31:07):
You will what we I mean when I teach this,
I talk about a four step process. So whenever we
come up against challenge. So this doesn't mean you have
to monitor Kevin twenty four to seven all the time,
like you go insane, But it's when you come up
against challenge can you be self aware? And the self

(31:28):
awareness is what is Kevin saying to me, Like what's
a story he's telling me? And what are the emotions
that come with that? So that's the first piece and
I'll give you I'll give you an example at the end.
The second part is the acceptance, and it's exactly what
you said of I'm not getting into an argument with Kevin.

(31:49):
I just accept that's what Kevin says in that situation,
and it could be due to ten thousand things, and
I'm not going to sit with a therapist to try
and work it out. I don't know what drives it,
but I just accept that in this situation, this is
what Kevin says, and that acceptance moves you out of

(32:10):
I'll have an internal fight in my head, and it
moves you towards well what action can I take? And
then the third step is about focus on the development
that will come out of it. So if I stand
up to this challenge, if I take this on, how

(32:30):
will I grow and evolve? How will my life be better?
How will this help me be aligned to my values?
And then the last step is can I engage in
towards behaviors? So we call it the safe model self awareness, acceptance,
focus on evolution, and the last part is engage in

(32:51):
towards behaviors. And towards behaviors are just those behaviors that
are going to get a better outcome, that are constructive,
that will improve. So if I think about my fifteen
year old at the moment, oh my gosh, she's given
me so much attitude. And I grew up in a
house like my dad was a Scottish motor mechanic. He

(33:11):
was he barely talked. We were terrified of him, right,
so we had we had respect for our parents and
we would never ever dream of talking back to our parents. Right,
That's how I grew up. So my fifteen year old,
she's given me heaps of attitude, so that when she's
mean to me, my self awareness is the story I

(33:34):
come up with, or Kevin comes up with, she shouldn't
talk to you like that. That's a disgrace. You do
so much for her. She doesn't appreciate you, appreciate you.
What a horrible child she is, right, that's what Kevin say.
And the acceptance piece is I don't know why, but
that's my reaction, and it's a fairly reasonable reaction. So
I don't get into, oh, I'm a terrible pair and

(33:55):
I shouldn't say that about my kid now, Like, yeah,
she was rude to me. Of course I'm going to
have all these reactions. The focus on development is I
can either go into battle with her or I could
be mean to her. But you know, my value is
I want to stay really connected to my kids and
I want to be the person they come back to
and that they can rely on. And in that moment,

(34:18):
I go, what is what's the most constructive behavior I
can do? And literally the other day she was having
a meltdown, and when she was having a meltdown, she
was being mean to me, and I could tell she
was struggling. Kevin's telling me all this stuff and all ideas.
Just walked up and gave her a hug.

Speaker 4 (34:34):
Yeah, I gave her a hug.

Speaker 2 (34:35):
And you know when someone like literally falls into you,
like she was just so stressed and overwhelmed. She just
needed that. And so it was almost like I don't
even when it comes to my parenting in particular, I
don't even pay attention to Kevin, I'm like, I know
the behaviors that will get an outcome, so you know,

(34:55):
I use that model to engage with her. Yeah, there's
there's an example in a full step process.

Speaker 3 (35:04):
Yeah, Matte that that is very cool, and I.

Speaker 2 (35:07):
Will I will give you a.

Speaker 3 (35:09):
Little bit of hope for the future.

Speaker 1 (35:12):
My daughter, who has been long been a master of
the art of pushing my buttons, has has not gone
to university and has come home the last couple of
weekends and it's been just blissed, absolute cares. Not eighteen,

(35:32):
just about to turn nineteen, and she's at UNI, and
she went traveling for eight weeks throughout Asia and that
had a big impact on her, but also just the
fact that she's not UNI and it's different. And then
she came home and all that was for the weekend
was just laughter and conversation and asking our advice and
all of those sorts of things.

Speaker 4 (35:53):
So there's there's hope.

Speaker 3 (35:55):
There's hope, man.

Speaker 2 (35:56):
And the problem is what I've worked out is girls
are so much my of than boys. So my mates
have boys and they come over. They're just dumb animals
that walk around the house. Right, They've got no idea
what's going on in the world. The girls just run
rings around them. They're so smart. Yeah, that doesn't change much.

Speaker 3 (36:16):
No, no, exactly.

Speaker 4 (36:18):
So let's let's talk about You've worked with a wide.

Speaker 1 (36:22):
Range of people from special forces guys to elite athletes,
to business people and just normal humans with with your
the workshops that you do.

Speaker 3 (36:36):
That's a good question.

Speaker 4 (36:37):
Who are the boost interesting?

Speaker 1 (36:38):
And now after that question, what have you learnt from
your interactions with elite levels of the military and elite
levels of athletes that we can all use that normal
people can use to improve their own lives.

Speaker 2 (36:58):
Okay, so when I which question first.

Speaker 4 (37:03):
It's more centristing.

Speaker 2 (37:05):
I just I look at single parents and I go,
how the hell do you do that?

Speaker 3 (37:13):
Do you do that?

Speaker 2 (37:14):
Seriously? I My wife kind of got hit by like
a chronic fatigue thing. She got COVID and then she
got influenzer A and she had this long viral thing
just and she's wiped out, like she's in bed. So
I'm doing it.

Speaker 1 (37:30):
That's hard, that's hard, ship, Yeah, real proper sick.

Speaker 2 (37:35):
But that means I'm doing everything. I'm traveling like I
do all the food and the planning and the cooking
like you know we have sort of separate jobs, but
I was doing everything, running the kids around, and after
a week, I just went, first of all, we're never
getting divorced because I'm not doing this crap on my
own right. And number two, I just went, I thought
of some of my friends who were single mums, and

(37:58):
I just go, that's freaking Brazil, Like that's And I
think one of the problems we do is is we
look at these elite people, and you know, elite athletes
are amazing, but they're weird in that they're just so disciplined,
like I don't know if it's it's it's I don't

(38:20):
know if you can relate to them. And I don't
know about you, but some of those Special Forces, I mean,
you were in Special Forces, weren't.

Speaker 4 (38:27):
You, Like, no, no, no, I was.

Speaker 1 (38:30):
I did combat tourvival, resistance to interrogation training, but and
interactive with special Forces, but I was military could yeah right,
Well I.

Speaker 2 (38:39):
Had a mate in the SAS and those guys are
just like they exist on a whole other level. You know,
Olympians are fascinating, but they're just a big step above
I think in terms of overall impressiveness that those soldiers

(39:00):
are just freaks. But it's kind of like the average
person that just blows me away. You know, the dad
that works freaking three jobs and you know, puts his
family first, or as we're talking about before, the single
mom who's you know, doing everything. Those people are just extraordinary.

(39:24):
I just think those people that you know, do the
grind day in and day out are quite amazing.

Speaker 4 (39:30):
So he just reminded me of a little story.

Speaker 1 (39:34):
Quite quite recently, I went back to Ireland and actually
caught up with a bunch of friends and caught up
with a me to mine who I had been at
school with, and I knew you had kids. We'd sort
of kept captain touch on Facebook and caught up with
each other and I was asking about his kids and
he said he has two non veribal artistic children and

(39:58):
I'm l dude, gee, And then he was telling me
about just the dearly issues that are going on and
I'm just like, my.

Speaker 4 (40:13):
God, how do you too, How do you and.

Speaker 1 (40:16):
Your wife actually just get through a day, a single
day rather than like this is every day?

Speaker 4 (40:24):
And yeah, so I agree with.

Speaker 2 (40:27):
You with like one thing that really struck me when
I was twenty one, I kind of realized I'd grown
up in the Partridge family, and I thought, oh man,
I've got to experience the world a little bit more.
And I one of the things I decided to do
was volunteer as a companion for Camp Quality. Right, so
Camp Qualities kids who have cancer. You take them away

(40:48):
for a week long camp twice a year, and as
a companion, you get a camper to look after and
you stay with that camper. And over those years I
lost two boys, both ate when they one from a
brain tumor and one from actually not from cancer, but
just from an infection you got in hospital, and man,
you sit with those parents and you know, it's like

(41:13):
talking God, I'm the freaking happy guest Todayana, I'm talking
about suicide. I'm talking about this. But you sit with
that parent and like one of them said, I will
never smile again, Like I'm just I'm crush And I
was like, right on, sister, I freaking I believe you,
and I can understand why you feel that way. But

(41:33):
then you see me a year later and they're they're
laughing and they're they've moved, Like you never get over that, obviously,
But I think what I've learned, what the average person
shows me is I don't think we lack resilience like
everyone talks about we lack resilience. I think we're amazing.
Like your mate with the two kids that aren't verbal,

(41:54):
Like that guy's a freaking hero. You know, the parents
that lose children and one if they stay together, that's
a bloody miracle and to you know, go on to
raise fantastic children who become great adults. So yeah, I
kind of you know, we we love the sexy high performers,

(42:15):
but I just think, you know, some of these people
that just have really hard situations are quite extraordinary. Maybe
we don't pay them enough cudos or study them nearly enough.

Speaker 1 (42:26):
Yeah, I think I think you're absolutely right. Actually, one thing,
just talking about losing kids.

Speaker 4 (42:33):
And when I am.

Speaker 1 (42:36):
Just before my open heart surgery, you know what that
does is it brings into sharp focus and your your
own mortality, right, And I use the Stoic principle of
you know, meditating on your own death.

Speaker 4 (42:52):
And I've always been a big fan of I'm not
always but for the.

Speaker 1 (42:55):
Last number of years that stoic concept of memento maury
and member that you are mortal, but just having something
like open heart surgery where you know there's a significant
risk really makes you think about it. And in the end,
I started doing the stoic and meditating on your desk,
not from a point of being morose, but just to

(43:18):
reflect on your life and particularly all the good stuff
in your in your life. And and Nyn actually thought,
you know what if this does go to ratchet, the
big silver lining and you know, the stuff that will
help me to die with a little smile on my
face is that if I go early, I will have

(43:40):
achieved my major ambition in life, which is not to
bury one of my children, because I've seen a couple
of friends who've lost kids and just what it's done
and to think about that and the impact.

Speaker 4 (43:55):
So I think you're right.

Speaker 1 (43:56):
The people who can get on with life after that
sort of stuff and have those everyday big challenges like
the single momb like the single dad, like the people
with autistic children, and you know, to an extreme non
verbal like like, there is incredible human resilience and resolve.

(44:17):
I think when we have to, when there's no other way,
And I think there's so many people who do not
realize their capacity because they've never been there. And if
they were forced to be there and to sit in
that shiitthole at discomfort, they would find incredible resilience.

Speaker 2 (44:42):
Yeah, and I think I think our problem is we
often are wait, like we wait till we are forced
into it, like where we yes, we're correct resilience, but
what we suck at is that proactive action that we
should take before the pain hits. So yeah, I think
where the average person lacks is that sort of discipline

(45:07):
or fortitude to to you know, get in front of
the bad event and start to change their lives for
the better without some sort of push into it.

Speaker 1 (45:21):
Yeah, ad Met, I love that for you, is get
in front of the bad event. And so you know,
we're I was thinking about the elite athletes, the special
forces guys. For me, the one thing that we could
all tick from them is their incredible consistency. And you know,
it's a bit fucking dull, right, discipline consistency, But I mean,

(45:46):
because how many people listening have gone on a diet
for a while or a fitness drive for a while
and felt frigging amazing and then for some reason they stop.

Speaker 4 (46:03):
So let's let's talk about.

Speaker 1 (46:05):
Behavior change in general, and what are some things that
you think that people can do to get in front
of that bad event. And as you I'm just throwing
this question at you, so as you're thinking about the answer,
for me and this is this is probably I think
part of the answer you're going to give. But for me,

(46:27):
tapping into one of my core values is authenticity. And
authenticity is that is the thing that stops me drinking
the way that I want to drink, being an irishman
and ex military, right, And I realized that there's no
way that I would be being authentic if I'd be

(46:49):
coming home at night and going fucking hell, it's a
hard day and drinking half a bottler a bottle of wine.
And it's that authenticity that makes me get up early
and do the workouts because I know I have to
stand up in front of people and talk about stuff
and I don't want to be in authentic, right, Yeah, you.

Speaker 2 (47:05):
Don't want to be the so with the leaky taps.

Speaker 1 (47:08):
Yeah, and yeah, exactly, that's the thing I don't want
to be.

Speaker 3 (47:12):
Somebody. Man.

Speaker 4 (47:13):
I see so many.

Speaker 1 (47:14):
Freaking doctors who are just in horrendous ship and I said,
you know, it just pops into my head. Physician he
likes hels right because they're not they're not authentic. So
for me, it's linking to that that value that resonates,
which I think a little bit of way of conversation.
But what are the some of the things that you
think having talked to so many people about behavior change,

(47:39):
what can they do or think.

Speaker 4 (47:41):
About to get in front of the bata van?

Speaker 2 (47:43):
So what I when it comes to behavior change? I
use Jonathan Hyatt's elephant model. So what he talks about
is he's a professor from the US and he says,
when you think about change, think about a writer on
top of an elephant and they're looking along the path.
So the rider represents what's the exact behavior you have

(48:06):
to do? So does the rider know where they're going?
And I and one of the I mean, this sounds
so dumb, but one of the biggest breakthroughs in behavior
change is articulate what are the behaviors you have to do?
Because when most people set goals, they'll go, oh, my
goal is to lose five kilos. Well, the problem with that,

(48:27):
that's an outcome, that's great, but what are the behaviors
to get you there? We talk about, oh, let's drive
innovation through our organizations. Okay, innovation is not a behavior
like that's that's a big concept. What are the behaviors
that will get you to innovation? So one of the
problems is we're too vague and we go, oh, I

(48:47):
should you know, handle my stress, or I should meditate
or I should you know. We don't go all right,
here's what's going to happen, you know, five days week,
I'm going to meditate at this time in this location,
and here's the app I have on my phone to
do it. Right, we don't get specific enough, and particularly

(49:10):
working with leaders, they say things like, oh, yeah, I'll
just I've got to empower my team. I'm like, awesome,
what does that actually mean? Like empower them? How with what?
Oh we're going to collaborate? Great? What the behaviors? And
people don't go deep enough into the behavior. So Number one,
you've got to make it really clear for the rider

(49:32):
where is it going now? The elephant represents the emotional
response to the change, and what you're trying to do
is get the elephant on sides because if you look
at that model, the elephant's the most powerful part. The
rider can pull as hard as he wants. If the
elephant doesn't want to go. It ain't going. And this
is where I try and get emotion on board with me.

(49:56):
So emotion drives behavior. What we're trying to do is
get emotion on board and make it appealing to do
the behavior. So if it is, you know, some form
of exercise, you know, exercising with a friend makes it
more enjoyable. Like I like to walk, but I'll listen

(50:16):
to podcasts while I walk, and I love like I
love the walk because I'm learning at the same time,
So that the elephant is just how do I get
emotion on board? And then the last part is the path.
And the path represents the context, the environment in which
I'm trying to change, and does the environment make it
easy to do that behavior or does it make it hard?

(50:39):
And this is the one people forget the most, and
just setting up the environment. Like you talk about drinking.
I love alcohol, like I can't drink a lot, Like
if I have four drinks, like I'm just destroyed. But
I really like it. And I gave up for a
while and I got in the habit of where I

(51:01):
was just having maybe one glass every day, and I
was like, oh man, I've got to cut that out.
And what I've been trying to do is not have alcohol.
But what I realized the only way is if there's
none in the house.

Speaker 4 (51:15):
Now, no none in the hot because if it's it's.

Speaker 2 (51:18):
In the cupboard, I will Rah Kevin will say you
deserve a glass of wine. You've worked very ex.

Speaker 1 (51:24):
And or you open the cupboard looking for something else
and you see the alcohol and it hijacks your brain exactly.

Speaker 2 (51:32):
It's like, I know what I need, and so what
I've realized is I just can't have it in the house.
So one of the things I did is just set
up my environment was really hard to get alcohol. So
they're the three things, the rider, the elephant, and the path,
and I just make sure I'm trying to tick off
as many of those as possible to obtain that behavior change.

Speaker 1 (51:58):
Yeah, I love it, and and yeah, I've got a
little saying that process beats goals.

Speaker 4 (52:05):
Every day of the week, totally right.

Speaker 1 (52:08):
So many people are just thinking about their goals and
how great it will feel, but don't put enough emphasis
on the process and behaviors. I mean, you'll have seen it, right,
I see it all the time. You go into corporates
and they have this vision statement or mission statement, and
then they have all their values and I'm like, if

(52:31):
those values aren't behaviorally based, what do they really mean?
Like how can you hold yourself to account and hold
other people to account if they're not translated into concrete behaviors?

Speaker 2 (52:44):
And also how many times behavior? How many times have
you spoken to and when? What are your values? And
they don't know.

Speaker 1 (52:53):
I do that ac conferences all the time. Right, stand up?
Who can tell me the purpose of this organization?

Speaker 4 (52:59):
Right?

Speaker 3 (52:59):
And stand up? You can tell me the values?

Speaker 1 (53:01):
And it's like it's just people doing this exercise and
they slap themselves on the back and think that that
that's it. It's done, and the purpose and values very
will come.

Speaker 4 (53:12):
Along and take us there.

Speaker 2 (53:14):
Comment earlier though, the consistency is everything? Mmm? Like everything?

Speaker 3 (53:22):
Yeah?

Speaker 4 (53:23):
Yeah, it is. For me.

Speaker 1 (53:25):
The biggest word that people should be focusing on is
that consistency.

Speaker 4 (53:30):
And they find out that when they're consistent, shit actually
changes over time.

Speaker 1 (53:35):
Right, So let's talk about what you do, right, Because
you're as busy as get out, and you know, you're
running a business, You've got a team, you're doing research,
you're doing lots of talks, you're writing books, you're raising kids,
You're all over the frigging place.

Speaker 4 (53:51):
What is this stuff that you do to enable you
to be a sustainable peak performer? Like, what are.

Speaker 1 (53:59):
Your non negotiables around those kind of fundamentals that we
talked about earlier on.

Speaker 4 (54:04):
Well physically and psychological Yeah.

Speaker 2 (54:06):
I mean physically, well, actually both physically and psychologically, because
if I don't do it, I'm a psychological mess. They
exercise is non negotiable. So I do the gym six
times a week, and I will swim three times a week,
like two in the pool, one in the ocean. For me,

(54:27):
being in nature is a really big important thing. I mean,
and we could go into the research about the impact
of nature on the brain, but you know, getting in
the ocean, being at the beach, that really helps me. Nutrition.
You know, I've always been really solid on nothing, just
heaps of fiber, you know the stuff you talk about,

(54:48):
heaps of protein, heaps of fiber. Try and live as
clean as I can. Meditation is a big piece for
me that daily just being able to calm my nervous
them calmed down is a critical component for me, so
they're kind and my sleep stuff, you know, make sure

(55:11):
I'm in bed by ten, you know, no screens an
hour before, you know, those simple kind of things. But
it's the nutrition, sleep and exercise of the big things
for me nature as well. But something I've I've introduced
over the last maybe five years is hobbies. So being

(55:32):
as busy as we are, I found I had family
because I was really committed to them. Fitness and health
and work, like I only had three things. And what
I started to do was introduce hobbies. So I used
to sing years ago in a band when I was

(55:52):
in my twenties to meet girls. That was the only reason,
and I just went screw, I'm going back to singing.
So I've got a singing teacher and every day I
practice singing, and it's it's just good for my soul.
The other thing is I'm really into cars, Like I

(56:13):
bloody love cars. And I bought a car that you
can take to the racetrack. So once a month I
go to the racetrack. I go to Easton Creek and
just drive around there as fast as humanly possible, and
I hang out with a bunch of guys and we
talk about tie pressure and suspension and yeah, because I

(56:34):
live with three women, like even my dog's a girl, right,
And so my whole life is Taylor Swift hair products,
face products and pulling ridiculous amounts of hair out of drains,
like I have pulled the frickin' animal out of there,
I swear to God. So once a month, I'm just

(56:54):
with a bunch of dudes. We're just talking about cars,
and yeah, it's just the best thing. And what I
found is those hobbies have given back to me so much,
so it's almost like to not burn out, I had
to do additional things rather than take things away. But yeah,
that's kind of what I do. And you know, I

(57:14):
have a really wonderful wife. She's just the best. So
that side of my life's really cool. But yeah, that's
me and just you know, hang out with friends and
try to be social.

Speaker 1 (57:27):
Yeah awesome, And and I love the hobbies. But that
what the Japanese referred to as that ikey guy. You
just so, ekey guy is completely misrepresented in the West. Right,
So when we get off this podcast, google Echi guy
and click on images and you will see this thing,

(57:48):
this van diagram come up and what you love, what
the world needs, right right, I'm.

Speaker 2 (57:56):
Talking about that the other day, no, no, and.

Speaker 4 (57:59):
And everybody thinks that's what ikey guy is.

Speaker 1 (58:02):
But my wife has studied Japanese psychology and she's going,
that's bullshit. This was just some guy and he's written
a blog post right where that original velin diagram was
about your purpose in life, and he had read something
on Nicky Guy and he just took a guy and substituted.

Speaker 3 (58:21):
It, and it just his blog went all over the place.

Speaker 1 (58:25):
And I everybody talks about that vein diagram when it
comes to inky Guy. But I had Professor Ken Mogi
on my podcast, who's obviously a Japanese professor and has
written a book on Nicky Guy, and he said that
it's nothing to do with that. Ikey Guy is this
concept about It's basically a hobby that you are really

(58:50):
passionate about where time just kind of disappears and you
do it for the love of doing it, not for
a particular outcome.

Speaker 4 (58:58):
Right.

Speaker 1 (58:59):
So Kate Ken's said he's got lots of vicky guys.
In one of his is getting up in the morning.
I can't remember whether it's a tea or coffe and
he makes it. You know, we're fully present, like the
Japanese do. And then he sits down with a piece
of chocolate and he drinks his tea or his coffee
and he just saavers the moments.

Speaker 2 (59:16):
Right, and.

Speaker 1 (59:19):
It's such a cool cut. But lots of them, it's
like growing their own vegetables. Is a nicky guy, and
they have lots of different ikey guys. And and really
interesting you were talking about hobbies, because I've always had
hobbies that were.

Speaker 4 (59:32):
Generally a bit active. You know.

Speaker 1 (59:33):
I had boxing, but yeah, getting punched into the field.

Speaker 2 (59:38):
Uh.

Speaker 4 (59:39):
And then you know, I played soccer for many years.

Speaker 1 (59:41):
And it was actually when when we moved here, Carl
he said you need to go back and play soccer
because she realized that I needed that outlet and I
needed that that hobby. And and then not now that
I'm a bit too old for soccer, I was playing
a bit of golf but don't have the time for it.

Speaker 4 (59:55):
And and no, I'm just one of my little iky guys.
Is tea.

Speaker 1 (01:00:00):
Get my dogs out for a walk in the morning
in nature, and I love to go out just before sunrise,
so it's.

Speaker 4 (01:00:08):
Dark when we're out and.

Speaker 1 (01:00:11):
Hit yeah, and just hearing the birds and for me,
you know, one of my biggest sticky guys cooker burrs.

Speaker 4 (01:00:19):
When I hear cooker burrs, I.

Speaker 1 (01:00:21):
Just stop and I just have this big shit eating
grin on my face. And often when we go out
for the walk, and in fact I did it this
morning and there was the cooker burrs going, and it's
just that little walk in nature and seeing my dogs,
you know, being so happy off the lead, really with
their tails wagging, and it's that little moment to joy.

(01:00:42):
Because I started doing it, I was putting my headphones
in and then I thought, hold on a minute, I
shouldn't be listening to a podcast or listening to this
because I'm not being completely present.

Speaker 3 (01:00:52):
And then when I when I took that out.

Speaker 1 (01:00:54):
And then was just listening and looking, I found that
that really grounds me in the morning, makes the dogs happy,
it makes me happy.

Speaker 2 (01:01:02):
That's beautiful. It's such good advice, isn't it, Because there's
something everyone can do.

Speaker 1 (01:01:08):
Yeah, and it's just that's the thing It does doesn't
have to be time consuming. It's just some little thing
that you just love for actually doing. It can be
doing bloody sudoku, it can be singing, it can be whatever.
But I think it's so important because there's so many
people will.

Speaker 4 (01:01:28):
Just resonate with you.

Speaker 1 (01:01:29):
Right, I have work, I have my fitness, and I
have my family.

Speaker 4 (01:01:34):
But that's it, right, and we.

Speaker 1 (01:01:36):
All need that little achy guy which actually recharges us
rather than recovery. When you talk about recovery, a lot
of people think it's sitting with your feet up with
a bottle.

Speaker 3 (01:01:46):
Of wine watching Netflix.

Speaker 1 (01:01:48):
It's not real, real recovery, right, that's relaxation, which is very,
very different.

Speaker 3 (01:01:52):
So we do need to wrap up here.

Speaker 1 (01:01:55):
I just want to talk about what are you excited
about in the future. What are you working on from
a research perspective that's interesting, new book or whatever. What's
floating your bault at dominic?

Speaker 2 (01:02:09):
Yeah, we just did. We did one of the world's
biggest studies on secondary trauma and its impact on educators.
Far out the cheering, this just keeps coming, doesn't it.
I'm just delivering. But like on a serious note, what
we're seeing is more and more children are presenting trauma
at school and educators having to deal with that, and

(01:02:32):
we have less and less services. So they've basically got
a kid that's gone through trauma and they're having to
manage them and teach them and support them, and there's
very little research done on that worldwide. So we just
did one of the biggest studies in the world on that,
and oh my gosh, the results are just staggering about

(01:02:53):
how prevalent it is, the impact on them, and most importantly,
we're looking at, well, what are the solution to that problem?
So that's a really big something that's really juicing me
at the moment. I feel very passionate about it, and
I think, you know, you talk about meeting and purpose.
It doesn't get much bigger than that. Writing the Kevin book. Yeah,

(01:03:20):
that's kind of That's where we're at at the moment.
That's my main focus right now.

Speaker 3 (01:03:26):
Very cool, Very cool.

Speaker 4 (01:03:27):
So where can where can people.

Speaker 3 (01:03:30):
Go to find your books?

Speaker 4 (01:03:33):
You got four of them.

Speaker 1 (01:03:35):
So work working, I go to buy every single one
of them. Where can people follow you to find out more?

Speaker 4 (01:03:41):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (01:03:41):
Well, just my website, which is doctor Adam Fraser dot com.
Is in dr Adam Fraser dot com. Yeah, I mean
I'm on all the socials and do all those things.
So yeah, just probably the website's the best place to go.

Speaker 3 (01:03:57):
M brilliant.

Speaker 1 (01:03:58):
Okay, we will send people there and get onto it.
People because Adam is an absolute wealth of knowledge and
a true p academic in the sense of the word,
someone who takes all that academic research and turns it
into actionable, understandable things.

Speaker 4 (01:04:16):
I think that's your superpower and my developing superpower. So
thank you for your time.