August 31, 2025 • 14 mins
In this week's Mojo Monday, Carly Taylor delves into the intricacies of the nervous system through the lens of Polyvagal Theory, developed by Steven Porges and practically interpreted by Deb Dana. Carly explains the three distinct parts of the autonomic nervous system: the ventral vagal (calm and social engagement), sympathetic (fight or flight), and dorsal vagal (shutdown and collapse). She describes how we constantly move up and down this 'ladder' in response to various stimuli, and offers practical tips for regulating our nervous system. Carly emphasises the importance of understanding these states to better manage our responses and improve overall well-being.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
Hi, everyone, It's Carl Taylor here and welcome to this
week's Mojo Monday. So today I want to talk about
our nervous system, and I'm going to talk about it
through the work of Stephen Porges and deb Dana. So.
Porges developed what's called Polyvagel theory back in nineteen sixty nine,
and deb Dana has done a beautiful job of making
(00:31):
it really practical and something that we can all use
in our daily lives. And I happened to see her
speak at a conference a couple of weeks ago, and
I got so much value from it, and I wanted
to share some of the things that I learned from
it with you. So most of us have heard of
the autonomic nervous system, and traditionally we talk about it
(00:52):
as having two branches, the sympathetic nervous system and the
parasympathetic nervous system. And through the lens of polyv theory
it gets a little bit more nuanced. Polyvagel theory shows
us that the parasympathetic actually has two distinct pathways, and
these are the ventral Vagel system, which supports calm connection
(01:18):
and social engagement. So when the ventral vaguel systems switched on.
We're feeling good, we're feeling relaxed and joyful, and all
those beautiful happy hormones have kicked in. And then there's
the dorsal vagel system. And what that does is drives
shut down. It drives collapse and sort of immobilization. So
(01:40):
imagine if somebody is really really depressed and they're feeling
very disconnected from people and from the world, that's the
dorsal vagel system. And depth Dana gives us a beautiful
metaphor for this. So it's like a ladder. So I
orner nervous system is like a ladder. At the top
(02:03):
of the ladder is the ventral vagel, and so this
is where you feel calm and curious and connected and
really grounded. You can think clearly, you can have a laugh,
you're connecting with others, and you feel really present. So
we all know what it feels like to be at
the top of the vent of the ladder, in that
ventral vagel area. And then in the middle of the
(02:26):
ladder it's a sympathetic nervous system. And so of course
we know this as the fight or flight and Porges
talks about this being mobilizing, so our heart rate increases,
breath gets shallower, muscles are primed, We're full of energy,
and you feel like you need to move or do something.
(02:47):
So that's the sympathetic nervous system. And then at the bottom,
as I said, it's the dorsal vagel so that shut
down collapse, that sort of numbness, disconnected state, which is
what you can go to when you write down the body.
And this is when you just want to retreat and
hide in a cave or disappear. And of course.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
Sometimes we do feel like doing that.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
We might not necessarily necessarily be depressed, but sometimes we've
got you know what, I just need time out.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
I don't want to talk to anybody. I just need
to be on my own.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
So that's around that dorsal area, and we move up
and down this ladder every single day. And the thing is,
none of these states are bad. They're are body survival responses,
are millions of years old, and they've kept us alive
as a species. So it's your body's way of keeping
(03:38):
you safe. Now, I just want to pause here and
be really clear about what I mean when I use
the word safe, because most of the time we are safe.
We're not in danger of being attacked by sabertooth teiger,
which is a reflective of.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
Our nervous system.
Speaker 1 (03:55):
Because our nervous system is so ancient, ancient, it doesn't think,
think logically, irrationally. There's no consciousness in our nervous system.
It just reacts as if we are going to be
attacked by a sober tooth tiger. You know, it's scanning
constantly for cues of safety or threat, and sometimes it misfires.
So when I talk about safety in this context, I
(04:19):
don't mean being safe in your environment. I mean your
body's perception of safety. And the reason why I think
it matters to be clear on this is, and this
is just my opinion, I feel like we're throwing this
word safe and being and being in safety too casually,
(04:40):
because what it can do is we keep talking about this,
it can trick our minds into believing that actually we're
not safe. We start wiring our brains to think that
the world is a dangerous place when in reality, we
are safe most of us. Of course, there are situations
where people are not safe, but I'm just talking in general.
(05:01):
And what's happening is that our nervous system is sending
survival signals based on the wiring of millions of years.
So when I use the word safe today, it is
shorthand for your nervous system's response, not literally a reflection
of your external world. So let me give you a
(05:21):
few examples about how this shows up. So in the morning,
I sometimes will have a cup of coffee. I will
be in that ventral, that top of the ladder and
be feeling really calm and good, and then I have
a coffee and I actually feel myself climbing down the
(05:42):
ladder a little from ventral into sympathetic. You know, suddenly
my heart's racing and I'm a little bit more on edge.
So that's just a really simple example of ingesting something
and moving into a sympathetic nervous system state. Another example is, say,
walking into a workshop on your own. So I did
(06:04):
this the other week when I went into the deb
Dana workshop, and it was quite funny because she talked
about this example and it was almost like she was
just talking about my experience because I was on my own.
I walked into the room, there were people everywhere, there
were empty seats, and all of a sudden, I'm going
(06:24):
into a bit of a sympathetic nervous system state. You know,
where do I see it, who do I sit with?
How close to stage? She's just all that kind of
normal stuff that happened. So you can see I was
in ventral and then that situation, I'm just moving down
the ladder a bit because what's happening is my nervous
system is just checking and scanning for whether I am
(06:49):
safe here. And you think about this with kids who
have school refusal. You know they don't want to go
to school, or maybe they are arriving life and they
have to walk into a classroom that's already settled and started.
That can feel really overwhelming and push them down into
that sympathetic nervous system state and also go head down
(07:14):
into dorsal, sometimes dipping down there if it's all too
much for them. So you can if you've got kids
who are having school refusal, you can almost notice where
they are on that ladder. They start off the morning
in ventral, and then as soon as it starts getting
ready to go to school, they start heading down that
(07:35):
ladder into sympathetic. And then of course there's the really
big stresses when life hits hard, so work deadlines, piling
up exams at UNI or school, the death of a love,
on financial pressures. We can move quickly through that sympathetic
into dorsal and then that's the cave response, and all
(07:57):
we want to do is shut the door, just hide
under a do and just disappear. And I think it's
also worth talking about that our past experiences shape how
we move up and down that ladder. So if you've
lived through trauma or long periods of stress, your nervous
system might respond more quickly to queues of danger, and
(08:18):
it can be harder to climb back up to the
ventral once that you've dropped. And research shows that this
is often linked to what we call lower vagual tone
and reduced heart rate variability, and they are measures of
how flexibly our system can regulate itself. And in simple terms,
past challenges can leave us with a more sensitive alarm
(08:41):
system and a slower reset button. But that doesn't mean
that change isn't possible. It just means awareness and practice
are even more important, So over time, those small regulating
practices can help the nervous system become more flexible again.
Polyvagal theory has been especially helpful for people healing from trauma.
(09:04):
But it isn't just for trauma survivors. All of us
can benefit from noticing what state we're in because once
we know, then we have more choice in how we
respond to it. And I think a key point here
is that the mind can really talk the body out
of these states, Like we can't tell our body to
(09:26):
stop feeling a certain way. This is why beating ourselves
up for feeling what we feel is really unhelpful and
it doesn't work. So when the nervous system reacts, first
the mind tries to find meaning in how we're feeling.
So if your body is anxious, your mind's going to
try and find reason. It's like, you know, I can't cope,
(09:49):
I shouldn't be feeling like this, or I don't belong
or these people are talking about me, And then if
your body shuts down, the story might be well, what's
the point. So I've got some tips through a polyvagal
informed lens that may help when you are recognizing which
(10:12):
part of the ladder that you're in. And once you're
able to recognize that, then you can regulate your nervous
system through some exercises. So of course, no surprises breathing,
so inhaling for four seconds, exhaling for eight seconds, so
that long out breath is the really important one because
(10:35):
that signals safety to your nervous system. Box breathing is
another one, and it just depends. I find with my
clients some people who are in a highly heightened sort
of anxious state don't want to hold their breath, So
just experiment with this one. If it doesn't work, that's fine.
You can do the four seconds in eight seconds out.
(10:57):
But what box breathing is, if you haven't heard of it,
that it's you take a deep breath in for four seconds,
you hold your breath for four seconds, breathe out for
four seconds, and then hold for four seconds. And if
you want to try this with your kids, you can
make it really tangible by tracing that. They can trace
(11:18):
their hand, so as their finger moves up their thumb,
they breathe in, and then as it moves down they hold,
and then up the next finger, breathe in, down that finger, hold,
and then you just keep going until you've reached your
little finger. So that's a kind of a more playful
(11:40):
it's playful and regulating.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
At the same time.
Speaker 1 (11:43):
And the next one is one of my favorites, and
this is StEB Dana talked about this in the workshop,
and that is finding glimmers.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
And I used to call these moments of joy.
Speaker 1 (11:55):
So they're the opposite of the triggers. They're tiny moments
of safety and joy, things like sunlight, a smile, favorite song,
spending time with the people that you're close to. You know.
One of mine is that there's a cook borough that
sits up on a.
Speaker 2 (12:14):
Wire practically every day.
Speaker 1 (12:16):
I don't know if it's the same crooker borrough, but
I'm just going to say that it is, and it
just brings me so much joy. It's like, every time
I drive past this cooker, barro is perched there.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
So it's these little things that you can notice.
Speaker 1 (12:29):
And what they do is they bring you those kind
of like little oh sort of you know, you kind
of go, oh wow, isn't that nice? And it can
bring you back up the ladder to ventral grounding through
your senses. So look around. Name three things you can see,
three sounds you can hear, three things you can touch,
(12:51):
and that brings you back into the present and can
move you up that ladder. And gentle movements, especially if
you're in. Also, if you're in that shutdown mode, something
as simple as just a gentle stretch, a walk outside,
or even just swaying side to side, just pressing your
(13:13):
feet into the ground, it can reconnect you. So this week,
try and notice where you are on the ladder and
try not to judge yourself for there, because it's it
is so normal and natural for us to move up
and down this ladder and because their survival states, all
of them. But the more we can recognize and work
(13:36):
with them, the more time that we can spend sort
of moving towards that top rung. We're never ever going
to stay there because that's just not life, but we
can regular we're aware of where we are, then we
can use these regulating exercises and then move ourselves up
and that's where we can stay connected and curious and present.
(13:58):
So your nervous isysdom isn't something to resist or fight,
it's something to listen to and understand. And then when
your body and your mind can work together instead of
opposing each other, that's when life can really open up.
So that is your mojo Monday for this week. I
hope it's been helpful and I will see you next week,
(14:19):
see ya
Hi, everyone, It's Carl Taylor here and welcome to this
week's Mojo Monday. So today I want to talk about
our nervous system, and I'm going to talk about it
through the work of Stephen Porges and deb Dana. So.
Porges developed what's called Polyvagel theory back in nineteen sixty nine,
and deb Dana has done a beautiful job of making
(00:31):
it really practical and something that we can all use
in our daily lives. And I happened to see her
speak at a conference a couple of weeks ago, and
I got so much value from it, and I wanted
to share some of the things that I learned from
it with you. So most of us have heard of
the autonomic nervous system, and traditionally we talk about it
(00:52):
as having two branches, the sympathetic nervous system and the
parasympathetic nervous system. And through the lens of polyv theory
it gets a little bit more nuanced. Polyvagel theory shows
us that the parasympathetic actually has two distinct pathways, and
these are the ventral Vagel system, which supports calm connection
(01:18):
and social engagement. So when the ventral vaguel systems switched on.
We're feeling good, we're feeling relaxed and joyful, and all
those beautiful happy hormones have kicked in. And then there's
the dorsal vagel system. And what that does is drives
shut down. It drives collapse and sort of immobilization. So
(01:40):
imagine if somebody is really really depressed and they're feeling
very disconnected from people and from the world, that's the
dorsal vagel system. And depth Dana gives us a beautiful
metaphor for this. So it's like a ladder. So I
orner nervous system is like a ladder. At the top
(02:03):
of the ladder is the ventral vagel, and so this
is where you feel calm and curious and connected and
really grounded. You can think clearly, you can have a laugh,
you're connecting with others, and you feel really present. So
we all know what it feels like to be at
the top of the vent of the ladder, in that
ventral vagel area. And then in the middle of the
(02:26):
ladder it's a sympathetic nervous system. And so of course
we know this as the fight or flight and Porges
talks about this being mobilizing, so our heart rate increases,
breath gets shallower, muscles are primed, We're full of energy,
and you feel like you need to move or do something.
(02:47):
So that's the sympathetic nervous system. And then at the bottom,
as I said, it's the dorsal vagel so that shut
down collapse, that sort of numbness, disconnected state, which is
what you can go to when you write down the body.
And this is when you just want to retreat and
hide in a cave or disappear. And of course.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
Sometimes we do feel like doing that.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
We might not necessarily necessarily be depressed, but sometimes we've
got you know what, I just need time out.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
I don't want to talk to anybody. I just need
to be on my own.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
So that's around that dorsal area, and we move up
and down this ladder every single day. And the thing is,
none of these states are bad. They're are body survival responses,
are millions of years old, and they've kept us alive
as a species. So it's your body's way of keeping
(03:38):
you safe. Now, I just want to pause here and
be really clear about what I mean when I use
the word safe, because most of the time we are safe.
We're not in danger of being attacked by sabertooth teiger,
which is a reflective of.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
Our nervous system.
Speaker 1 (03:55):
Because our nervous system is so ancient, ancient, it doesn't think,
think logically, irrationally. There's no consciousness in our nervous system.
It just reacts as if we are going to be
attacked by a sober tooth tiger. You know, it's scanning
constantly for cues of safety or threat, and sometimes it misfires.
So when I talk about safety in this context, I
(04:19):
don't mean being safe in your environment. I mean your
body's perception of safety. And the reason why I think
it matters to be clear on this is, and this
is just my opinion, I feel like we're throwing this
word safe and being and being in safety too casually,
(04:40):
because what it can do is we keep talking about this,
it can trick our minds into believing that actually we're
not safe. We start wiring our brains to think that
the world is a dangerous place when in reality, we
are safe most of us. Of course, there are situations
where people are not safe, but I'm just talking in general.
(05:01):
And what's happening is that our nervous system is sending
survival signals based on the wiring of millions of years.
So when I use the word safe today, it is
shorthand for your nervous system's response, not literally a reflection
of your external world. So let me give you a
(05:21):
few examples about how this shows up. So in the morning,
I sometimes will have a cup of coffee. I will
be in that ventral, that top of the ladder and
be feeling really calm and good, and then I have
a coffee and I actually feel myself climbing down the
(05:42):
ladder a little from ventral into sympathetic. You know, suddenly
my heart's racing and I'm a little bit more on edge.
So that's just a really simple example of ingesting something
and moving into a sympathetic nervous system state. Another example is, say,
walking into a workshop on your own. So I did
(06:04):
this the other week when I went into the deb
Dana workshop, and it was quite funny because she talked
about this example and it was almost like she was
just talking about my experience because I was on my own.
I walked into the room, there were people everywhere, there
were empty seats, and all of a sudden, I'm going
(06:24):
into a bit of a sympathetic nervous system state. You know,
where do I see it, who do I sit with?
How close to stage? She's just all that kind of
normal stuff that happened. So you can see I was
in ventral and then that situation, I'm just moving down
the ladder a bit because what's happening is my nervous
system is just checking and scanning for whether I am
(06:49):
safe here. And you think about this with kids who
have school refusal. You know they don't want to go
to school, or maybe they are arriving life and they
have to walk into a classroom that's already settled and started.
That can feel really overwhelming and push them down into
that sympathetic nervous system state and also go head down
(07:14):
into dorsal, sometimes dipping down there if it's all too
much for them. So you can if you've got kids
who are having school refusal, you can almost notice where
they are on that ladder. They start off the morning
in ventral, and then as soon as it starts getting
ready to go to school, they start heading down that
(07:35):
ladder into sympathetic. And then of course there's the really
big stresses when life hits hard, so work deadlines, piling
up exams at UNI or school, the death of a love,
on financial pressures. We can move quickly through that sympathetic
into dorsal and then that's the cave response, and all
(07:57):
we want to do is shut the door, just hide
under a do and just disappear. And I think it's
also worth talking about that our past experiences shape how
we move up and down that ladder. So if you've
lived through trauma or long periods of stress, your nervous
system might respond more quickly to queues of danger, and
(08:18):
it can be harder to climb back up to the
ventral once that you've dropped. And research shows that this
is often linked to what we call lower vagual tone
and reduced heart rate variability, and they are measures of
how flexibly our system can regulate itself. And in simple terms,
past challenges can leave us with a more sensitive alarm
(08:41):
system and a slower reset button. But that doesn't mean
that change isn't possible. It just means awareness and practice
are even more important, So over time, those small regulating
practices can help the nervous system become more flexible again.
Polyvagal theory has been especially helpful for people healing from trauma.
(09:04):
But it isn't just for trauma survivors. All of us
can benefit from noticing what state we're in because once
we know, then we have more choice in how we
respond to it. And I think a key point here
is that the mind can really talk the body out
of these states, Like we can't tell our body to
(09:26):
stop feeling a certain way. This is why beating ourselves
up for feeling what we feel is really unhelpful and
it doesn't work. So when the nervous system reacts, first
the mind tries to find meaning in how we're feeling.
So if your body is anxious, your mind's going to
try and find reason. It's like, you know, I can't cope,
(09:49):
I shouldn't be feeling like this, or I don't belong
or these people are talking about me, And then if
your body shuts down, the story might be well, what's
the point. So I've got some tips through a polyvagal
informed lens that may help when you are recognizing which
(10:12):
part of the ladder that you're in. And once you're
able to recognize that, then you can regulate your nervous
system through some exercises. So of course, no surprises breathing,
so inhaling for four seconds, exhaling for eight seconds, so
that long out breath is the really important one because
(10:35):
that signals safety to your nervous system. Box breathing is
another one, and it just depends. I find with my
clients some people who are in a highly heightened sort
of anxious state don't want to hold their breath, So
just experiment with this one. If it doesn't work, that's fine.
You can do the four seconds in eight seconds out.
(10:57):
But what box breathing is, if you haven't heard of it,
that it's you take a deep breath in for four seconds,
you hold your breath for four seconds, breathe out for
four seconds, and then hold for four seconds. And if
you want to try this with your kids, you can
make it really tangible by tracing that. They can trace
(11:18):
their hand, so as their finger moves up their thumb,
they breathe in, and then as it moves down they hold,
and then up the next finger, breathe in, down that finger, hold,
and then you just keep going until you've reached your
little finger. So that's a kind of a more playful
(11:40):
it's playful and regulating.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
At the same time.
Speaker 1 (11:43):
And the next one is one of my favorites, and
this is StEB Dana talked about this in the workshop,
and that is finding glimmers.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
And I used to call these moments of joy.
Speaker 1 (11:55):
So they're the opposite of the triggers. They're tiny moments
of safety and joy, things like sunlight, a smile, favorite song,
spending time with the people that you're close to. You know.
One of mine is that there's a cook borough that
sits up on a.
Speaker 2 (12:14):
Wire practically every day.
Speaker 1 (12:16):
I don't know if it's the same crooker borrough, but
I'm just going to say that it is, and it
just brings me so much joy. It's like, every time
I drive past this cooker, barro is perched there.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
So it's these little things that you can notice.
Speaker 1 (12:29):
And what they do is they bring you those kind
of like little oh sort of you know, you kind
of go, oh wow, isn't that nice? And it can
bring you back up the ladder to ventral grounding through
your senses. So look around. Name three things you can see,
three sounds you can hear, three things you can touch,
(12:51):
and that brings you back into the present and can
move you up that ladder. And gentle movements, especially if
you're in. Also, if you're in that shutdown mode, something
as simple as just a gentle stretch, a walk outside,
or even just swaying side to side, just pressing your
(13:13):
feet into the ground, it can reconnect you. So this week,
try and notice where you are on the ladder and
try not to judge yourself for there, because it's it
is so normal and natural for us to move up
and down this ladder and because their survival states, all
of them. But the more we can recognize and work
(13:36):
with them, the more time that we can spend sort
of moving towards that top rung. We're never ever going
to stay there because that's just not life, but we
can regular we're aware of where we are, then we
can use these regulating exercises and then move ourselves up
and that's where we can stay connected and curious and present.
(13:58):
So your nervous isysdom isn't something to resist or fight,
it's something to listen to and understand. And then when
your body and your mind can work together instead of
opposing each other, that's when life can really open up.
So that is your mojo Monday for this week. I
hope it's been helpful and I will see you next week,
(14:19):
see ya
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