October 3, 2025 • 46 mins
Part Two of my conversation with Dr. Alia Bojilova as we delve into the intricacies of resilience, offering valuable insights into the psychological and physiological aspects that contribute to personal and collective growth in challenging times. Our discussion covers a range of topics including belonging, curiosity, purpose, and drive as critical components of resilience. Through this engaging dialogue, we explore the dynamic interplay between self-awareness, community, and purpose, providing practical strategies to harness resilience effectively.
What You'll Learn:
- Understanding Resilience: Dr. Bojilova and Dr. Taylor discuss how resilience is fuelled by a sense of belonging and purpose. They highlight the importance of being part of something bigger, with clear positive intent and shared values that sustain and enhance our capacity for life.
- Belonging and Identity: The conversation explores the profound impact of belonging not just to groups, but also to oneself. They emphasize the magic of defining personal values and purpose, which serve as a foundation for resilience.
- The Role of Curiosity: Curiosity is spotlighted as a vital component of resilience, offering a pathway to see seemingly insurmountable challenges as opportunities for exploration and growth.
- Purpose and Drive: Their dialogue underscores the significance of clear purpose as a precursor to drive, with motivation naturally following purposeful action towards meaningful goals.
- Physiological Resilience: Dr. Taylor stresses the importance of physical recovery and self-care as foundational elements of resilience, cautioning against the misconception of relaxation as genuine recuperation.
Key Takeaways:
- Stay Purpose-Driven: Purpose precedes drive, making it crucial to align your actions and goals with your core values and sense of meaning.
- Integrate Curiosity: Cultivate curiosity about yourself, others, and the world to keep your mind open and adaptable.
- Prioritise Recovery: Ensure that rest and rejuvenation are integral parts of your routine to sustain long-term resilience.
- Embrace Belonging: Develop a deep sense of belonging within yourself and your community to foster a supportive environment for personal growth.
Resources
- For more on resilience and to purchase Dr. Bojilova's book, "The Resilience Toolkit," check your favourite local bookstore.
- Connect with Dr. Alia Bojilova on LinkedIn for updates and potential speaking engagements.
- Corporate inquiries can be directed to Between Two Beers, a speaking bureau in New Zealand.
Support the Podcast
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Share this episode with friends or colleagues who might benefit from understanding resilience and its transformative impact on life and work.
For more resources and discussions on resilience, stay connected with us and never miss an episode of this invaluable series on personal and professional growth.
00:32 The Psychology of Tribalism and Community
02:04 Tools for Deepening Belonging
03:13 The Role of Awareness in Resilience
06:12 Curiosity as a Key to Resilience
10:29 The Power of Awe and Gratitude
13:52 Effort and Procrastination in Achieving Goals
20:11 Labels and Responsibility in Mental Health
22:24 The Problem with Labels in Psychology
23:27 Understanding Drive vs. Motivation
23:59 Purpose Precedes Drive
27:23 Discovering Your Purpose and Values
34:53 Resilience in Different Contexts
39:23 The Importance of Recovery
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
There's this huge difference in terms of the extent to
which this fuels or deplets your resilience and capacity for life.
And it's not just what is this thing how, not
just the sheer perimeters of that thing, but what is
(00:22):
this thing supposed to be doing? And so when you
find yourself belonging to something that is bigger, that is purposeful,
that has a positive intent, that has rules written or
otherwise that are supposed to help serve one another, that's
the good stuff.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Yeah, absolutely, And you can see how powerful this stuff is,
you know, when you when you go to environments, particularly
when there is a lack of hope. There's a lot
being talked about over here in Australia about gangs, right
about young gangs, and I know New Zealand has similar problems.
But you look at the psychology of that. It's generally
(01:01):
a bunch of young men with lack of hope who
then kind of get pulled together with this tribalism. There's
this this sort of shared being a valued member of
some sort of a community. And now it's just changed
the morals and the behaviors. Uh. And you have all
sorts of different tribes and communities but we we want
(01:25):
to feel like we're a member of a tribe. I
think that's an innate thing because the human brain is
fundamentally a social organ You'll know as a psychologist how
much of our brain is dedicated to social interactions, to language,
to emotion processing, to understanding intent of others and all
(01:46):
of this stuff. It's just I think it's so fundamental,
that whole belonging, but the way that you talk about
it as well, not just belonging to a group, but
that the whole idea of wet self as well. Can
you just expand a little bit on belonging and are
there any tools in your toolkit resilience tools structure around
(02:10):
belonging that people can use.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
Yeah, I mean, I think so the starting point for
belonging for resilience is effectively understanding the perimeters of just
how much you could do if you knew yourself.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
Right.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
So, the reason why I'm mentioning this is oftentimes when
we're thinking about belonging, we're thinking about something we have inherited.
You describe yourself as a recovering Catholic, right, and oftentimes
what'll be fine is letting go of something we have
been born with or have inherited over time is one
of the hardest things, while resilience. When I'm speaking about
(02:46):
belonging to something that is bigger than you and better
than you, as well as belonging that starts from within,
defining the values, the purpose, the sense of identity that
you have. This is the stuff of magic, right, I
think to build the broader scope. By the way, I
got startled a little bit because there is a bunch
of loud individuals next door, and clearly they're starting there,
(03:10):
They're starting the daylight. So apologies, that's all good. So
the tools around deepening your own sense of belonging and
broadening it. Strangely enough, it starts with awareness. Again, That's
why these things are in sequenced awareness, belonging, curiosity, drive, right,
but really pausing long enough to understand what fuels and
(03:32):
drives you, what sustains you, what are the values and
principles that you uphold, and how many of these are
the echoes of yesterday rather than the thing that matters
most for the future.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
Oh I like that.
Speaker 1 (03:44):
Don't you. Let's can we stay on that for a
hot second?
Speaker 2 (03:47):
Yes? Yeah, because you know.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
When if we are thinking about we're not we are
speaking of belonging for resilience. It's not a different beast,
but it hasn't added little something something than the usual
belonging that makes you you'll soft and cozy on the couch, right,
that's not what we're here for. And so if you're
thinking about the kind of belonging that galvanizeres that focuses you,
(04:11):
that allows you to fortify your attention so that you
can see your way out and thrive, then that is
the stuff that is very again intentional and deliberate. So
many of us define our sense of belonging, our sense
of identity based on heuristic rules of thumb, principles and
values that have been inherited, some kind of trickle down effect.
(04:35):
Seldom do we pose to actually work out where that
stuff comes from. We're taking us. So the echo of
yesterday is only as interesting as it helps inform our future.
That's not about rejecting everything you've come with, but about
being quite clear and quite open about just how much
more you can grow and just how much more you
(04:56):
can give.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
And those echoes of yesterday, some of them will be useful.
Some of them will have been useful at some stage
in your life. But are no longer serving you well,
nigh right, And so it's a bit of an ongoing process.
This thing isn't it?
Speaker 1 (05:16):
Yes, it is, and but I've got it on a
I think it can confidently say it is a It
is a good challenge because you see a kind of
a liken it to traveling with a backpack full of
howf open cans of beans? You don't need, you know
what I mean? You don't need that burden past a
certain point. And I think the ability to boss get
(05:36):
your lessons learned, then continue is essential for anyone who
considers themselves wanting to be resilient and to be driving
in life.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
Right, Yeah, I.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
Love what you said. So you know the piece about
what has served you, what no longer does? And how
do you have to enrich your repertu our for life?
You understanding of it in order to be purposeful, to
be good, to be meaning, to grow. It does require
pausing for a hot second, checking yourself, and then continuing.
(06:07):
So many of the people and teams that I work
with are obstracted by that white noise of unchecked stuff.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
Right, the white noise, the white noise can be all consuming.
And let's talk about curiosity. Curiosity killed the cat. Satisfaction
brought it back, right have you heard of that term?
Curiosity killed the cat? That satisfaction brought it back. But curiosity,
see if your life absolutely taught us through.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
That my favorite thing. Curiosity is absolutely my favorite thing,
and if you can please have more room for it,
then we will be all very happy. So, yes, curiosity
did save our life because it allowed us to look
at what appeared to be a fixed situation from different angles,
including the intention of our tours. And I what hazard
(07:02):
A guess that if you can find space for curiosity
in the acute and it has served us right, then
you should make truckloads of room for it anyway you look.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
Right.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
So, in the context of resilience, I was surprised to
see that when I started researching it, resilience, curiosity didn't
seem to feature with it. That's some years ago. Now
now we know it's an absolute treasure, right, But effectively,
curiosity is one of those things that you can't be
(07:32):
curious and freaked out at the same time, right, interesting, Yeah, Yeah,
It's one of those things that you know, if you
allow yourself the scope for it, the space for it, it
doesn't take much to practice that muscle. It's a micro movement, right,
We're wired for it. What it does is that it
allows you to see what you previously thought was unsurmountable
or overwhelming. It's just a curious space to explore. And
(07:54):
when you get yourself look around the corner just long enough,
you get to see many different ways in which you
can respond rather than react. Right, it's a beauty. All
it takes is asking yourself a hot question here in
the air, a little bit more than you have previously done.
Curiosity is start with this thing that you mentioned earlier,
right from conduct, have to capture one one thousand, two,
(08:16):
one thousand and three, one thousand, taking a breath before
you get yourself in the reaction mode, allowing more of
the inputs of your context to influence you read of
a situation, to choose whether you want to engage with
it or not, and to actually begin to experiment with
different ways of taking your predicament and with curiosity.
Speaker 2 (08:40):
Is it important to be curious about yourself and your
own behaviors and your emotions? Is that helpful from a
resilience perspective?
Speaker 1 (08:50):
I think so, I think so, and I'm saying it
with caution because there is a risk of us becoming
indulgent looking to find the answer within, whereas the answer
is in interaction.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
I find a paralysis by analysis, right. And this is
where talk, some talk therapist drive me mad, where people
just go and talk about their issues and there's no
action associated with it.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
Yeah, it's it's not. It's not a very healthy thing,
is it.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
Now? God Jesus that you can just you can go
down so many rabbit holes in your own head. Uh.
And I think think some talk therapist can actually make
it worse, particularly if there's no action that's aligned with
purpose and values. Right, all the stuff that you talk about.
Speaker 1 (09:37):
That's it. That's it. There is no testing it, there's
no feedback loop.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (09:42):
So, but an element of being curious about yourself is essential.
And I think let's tempt ourselves into this place because
if we are not what we assuming is that I emotion,
the one we get locked into reaction, the read or
the label we picked up about a situation is all
the ris So occasionally going hey, wait hot a second,
(10:04):
what is this thing? What is this? What is this
story I'm telling myself? I think it's really really helpful
because if we get ourselves in the state of actually
recognizing that conclusions, the conclusions we often draw about things
are just the habitual reaction rather than a deliberate response.
This place is better, right, So, yes, wondering where your
(10:27):
responses come from, what purpose they serve, and whether they
serve you is essential. Getting stuck in it not so much.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
Yes, yeah, absolutely. And there's another thing about curiosity that
I think is really important because for me, being curious
not just about yourself in real the whole resilience contacts.
But if we broaden it a little bit, just being
curious about the world I think is hugely important because
(10:57):
I think curiosity is a prerequisite for AWE. And there's
so much really cold shit involved in AWE. Then the
experience of awe, and how then that can flow on
to gratitude. So I like to talk about those three
(11:17):
things as close cousins. Curiosity about the word, about yourself,
about other people, and that then triggers AWE. Right, if
you're not curious about life, then you wouldn't be so
blown away by it. Right. I start off every day
by going to myself one in four hundred trillion, get
(11:39):
the fuck up. And do stuff, right, That's what scientists reckon,
are our odds of having been born. But if you're
not curious about that in the first place, and it's
hard to be awe inspired just with everyday life, the
stuff that's going on. And then if you have real awe,
it is so friggin hard not to be genuinely grateful
(12:02):
about stuff. And I think that's a perspective shifter that
a lot of people miss out when they are just
passive consumers of life being entertained on friggin's screens. Right,
what's your thoughts on all of that?
Speaker 1 (12:18):
I just I absolutely love all of that. You're speaking
of awe, and you know what instantly makes me. It
makes me concerned that so many of us are accustomed
to looking for it elsewhere, you know, like it's a coombastic,
super colorful version of life. But it is abundant and
available virtually every way you look down the hill from
(12:41):
my farm. I was there yesterday with my son and
one of his besties, and they were in awe. A
small little you know, a leaf that hangs off a
spider web over a little river that only forms when
we have abundant rain out here, right, the bottom of
the very small little thing, and you could see them
mesmerized for the longest of time, studying this process of
(13:02):
how have things occurred here? Wondering whether they're still in
a stage of wondering whether you know elves and little
creatures are real? Right? Yes, yes, stories about that stuff?
Now here's your scare folding of curiosity right, not is
something that astonishes you in that moment, begin to appreciate
how the subtleties of it, all the subcomponents of it
that have to travel together to form in this thing
(13:23):
that you are observing and witnessing at the moment exists. Yes,
that is astonishing, right, Whereas you know the alternative of
that is just racing to the mall with you muddy boots,
not having noticed any of that stuff at all, looking
for some kind of gratification loop.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
That's put your head and your freaking phone on the way.
Speaker 1 (13:43):
Yeah, yeah, it's absurd, right, It's just insane. And when
you like these sorts of moments, give you space, give
you time, Suddenly time stretches. You know, thirty minutes walk
down a hill becomes an hour of exploration and ideas remarkable.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
Thing absolutely that you mention in your books often that
I read that I absolutely love things that matter take effort.
What do you mean by that?
Speaker 1 (14:11):
This is part of the wider, unapologetic script for life, right,
And so all of the things that we should be
waking up for that galvanize us, that center us, that
ground us, that give us a sense of momentum, are
the sorts of things we have chosen, right, or the
sorts of things that we feel committed to. And so
(14:32):
I think things that matter take effort is a little
heuristic I have for myself to allow myself never to
take the sorts of things that matter for granted, right,
to invest what I've got in pursuing those goals and
to grow them bigger, louder, more meaningful. You know it.
Also it also challenges us to pause when we catch
(14:54):
ourselves in this gratification cycle of life. That's not what
the good stuff is about, right, because that's the longer
journey and experiencing yourself being able to be your best
version as you traversed some of the gnarliest turns of life.
Speaker 2 (15:09):
Yeah, it's about being in the contest. Yeah, that's it. Yeah,
And you also talk about and this one got me
a procrastination story. So what is a procrastination story? How
do people do it? Why is it useful to do
this little exercise?
Speaker 1 (15:26):
Tell me, tell me, tell me more. I forgotten that,
forgotten that? But why does that excite you?
Speaker 2 (15:30):
Well, no, no, that didn't excite me.
Speaker 3 (15:32):
It needled me because because I I can be guilty
of procrastination and I've I've worked out why, right, And well,
actually it was my wife who worked out why.
Speaker 2 (15:45):
And I think it is because of my time in
the military. I did helicopter search and rescue, I did
anti submony warfare, and it was always better, right it was.
It was full on and and I think I became
an adrenaline junkie out of it. So I tend to
wait until there's a fucking looming disaster before I get
(16:09):
interested in doing stuff, and then I get excited and
completely dialed in. So it was just interesting for me
that procrastination story and what's behind it because I unpacked
and it was actually it was it was a mete
of mine who was my general manager at the time,
a guy called Maya big Maori dude, And we're going
to talk about Maris at the end. And he was
(16:32):
my general manager. I remember him saying to me, Paul,
it's clear to me that every time there's a crisis,
you get excited and that's when you get switched on.
But others don't just remember that, and he's true, It
was absolutely true, And so I will actually procrastinate so
(16:54):
that I create enough of a crisis to get interested
to do the work.
Speaker 1 (17:02):
So thank you so much for sharing this. And I'm
sure a bunch of your audience would absolutely see themselves
in that this is an epic example of awareness, right,
whether you were conditioned like that through your military service
or whether you were innateve like that.
Speaker 2 (17:17):
And yeah, I think it's probably a bit of both, right,
because that's why I got drawn into what I did,
and then it accentuated it.
Speaker 1 (17:25):
I don't want to give any exits out of responsibility
or self but like, think about this is a this
is an epic evolutionary setting, right, Like why waste energy
for something that is non critical? Like who's going to die?
You know? Be it that I'm about to go hunt
and eat? Like what what am I wasting my resources for?
Speaker 2 (17:47):
Right?
Speaker 1 (17:48):
But we don't let ourselves off the hook, even if
we are wire that way, And so the job to
be done then is to discover what it is that
galvanizes you. You don't have to be in a state
of constant burno the whole time. Obviously we don't want
to do any of that stuff. But I'm concerned about
the scripts for life that many of us choose will
have to apply to all of us, disregarding how different
(18:09):
we all are. Right, and so, for example, for some
of us, that procrastination story is procrastinating on the bigger
challenge that we should be focusing our attention on, and
instead seeing ourselves spilling our attention and energy over all
sorts of small stuff that nobody cares about, including ourselves. Yes,
I won't know what version of procrastination is scarier, and
(18:32):
there are plenty of numbers between zero and one, but
I just want to double click on that. Correct me
if I've gone all crazy on it. But one version
of procrastination in life is the one that kind of
waits until things have become totally disaster like to galvanize
and include us. There you are walking in saving us all.
The second one is procrastinating on the big important stuff
(18:54):
by distracting ourselves with a whole heap of small stuff.
Speaker 2 (18:58):
Yes, yeah, absolutely, So in.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
Between all of these things exist an opportunity for us
to pause and appreciate that we have plenty of choice
in some instances, perhaps too much of it. But in
that space we have to become a little bit more intentional. Right, So,
finding your medicine, understanding how your system operates, you know,
what is it that it requires. Does it require peace
(19:24):
and calm in order to be methodical, or does it
require a little bit more of a strain in order
to be galvanized and focused. We're all unique and different.
Some of these things might take us to a bit
of a nasty spike. We have to work on. It's
just a gremlin. We have conversation with it, we sel
for it, and we continue. But I, yeah, I find
that really interesting, those those domains of procrastination and what
(19:47):
it actually might look like in terms of outcomes.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
I love that you said and that something along the
lines of you're not going to absolve you of the
responsibility yourself off because it's interesting. Right, So I have
worked out why I procrastinate, and I could go, oh,
well that's just me and accept how I am, which
is not the right answer, right, It's to understand it
(20:15):
for the purpose of moving forward and actually betterment. And
I actually think if we again come to broader psychology,
I think a lot of mental health labels are absolving
people of responsibility for taking action, right, And I'm not
here incorporating people who have severe mental illness. I'm talking
(20:38):
about the people that have the mild anxiety or mild
depression that they kind of hook on to that label
and it's my anxiety or it's my depression, and it
becomes an excuse not to move forwards, are not to
do the work. And so I love that you said
(20:59):
about not letting absorbing yourself with responsibility, because I think
that's dangerous. Right if we just become curious and go, oh,
this is just me, this is how I am. This
is why I think self acceptance is risky. Right. It's
a continuum, isn't it.
Speaker 1 (21:18):
Did you thank you for doing this for me? Did
you see me biting my tongue trying not to tach labels?
I don't like them because I think they're wildly limiting
unless we do something with them, right, I'm sure that
better understand ourselves and then build up a way forward
that is far more meaningful and agile than we could
have contemplated in the absence of them. But I fully agree,
(21:41):
I see it. Those labels. They're almost a caging device.
Speaker 2 (21:45):
Do you know, love a caging device.
Speaker 1 (21:49):
I just constantly bite my tongue. I catch myself constantly
looking those that just it's a little bit, it's a
little bit disconcerting. Don't know whether we found ourselves in
a place where we understand what might take away from us,
but have been slow to offer us. So then what
do you know what I mean? So I am extremely
(22:10):
keen for us to starting to to start to unleash
ourselves from some of these assumptions, those ways out of life,
because I don't know whether they serve us in any way,
you know, anyway in treapments. Labels can be intrepments unless yes, yeah,
(22:32):
I really love that. So I think let's go ahead
and start putting commas after labels so that we can
start exploring I love commas.
Speaker 2 (22:42):
That's that's really important because and and this is I
think where psychology has gone wrong, And it's that that
there is a risk that the whole psychology industry is
actually minting, just like a central bank mints money, and
(23:04):
and and it's it's well intentioned, right, but I think
we've just gone to a crazy level where there's a
label for this and a label for that and a
label for the other thing. And as you say, there's
no comma or the comma is antake this medication, which
is just is a part like that's another rabbit hole
(23:26):
that we probably shouldn't go down. But I love your
idea of those labels need a comma after them, and
and that brings us nicely into your fourth one. And
and I hope our listeners can see the sequential nature
of this because from the curiosity, going back to belonging,
going back to awareness, then let's all about drive because
(23:49):
for me, this is this is the biggie. Right. So
firstly I would question I have for you is what's
the difference between drive and motivation?
Speaker 1 (24:01):
Ah? Right? So okay, can I start with my favorite heuristic,
which is purpose precedes drive?
Speaker 2 (24:12):
So I love that and your it's very cool.
Speaker 1 (24:15):
Yeah, I absolutely love it. Right, And so again in
that is the answer of the motivation versus drive. I
just don't want to make it simple a simple answer, right,
because it's a biggie. The vast majority of us run
around trying to find a reason of trying to find
ourselves in a state of energized neuroticism so we can
(24:36):
achieve the things we don't want to achieve, Which is
why I'm I'm hesitant to speak about this motivation versus
drive thing, right, because we are putting the card before
the horse or whatever the saying is that basically suggests
we're putting things in the wrong order over and over
and over again. So purpose precedes drive is the easiest
(24:58):
and most impactful heuristic I've come upon. And I attribute
this to my dear, dear friend Sam, who was a
mentor in THEESS and an extraordinary, extraordinary wise man. So anyway,
the point of this is, unless we know and are
assigned to our sense of purpose, the probability of us
(25:20):
being a saying human that is also driven is zilch
to none. And I think we oftentimes become wildly indulgent
expecting that we are going to feel a sense of
motivation and drive towards something that we don't understand, don't
align with, or don't inspire us. Doesn't inspire us, right,
So that's the starting point and the easiest conclusion. There
(25:40):
is bit clear on where it is that you are heading.
Know who you are, not this person standing there holding
the ground beneath your feet, but more importantly, bit clear
on what it is that this journey is about for you.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
Right.
Speaker 1 (25:52):
So, I think so many of us just are in
the state of reactivity or the daily grind, to the
point where we haven't caught ourselves in any way aligned
with what it is that we do. Right, So, purpose
procease drive is incredibly important. Motivation seems to follow when
we have discovered that, Right, It's a no brainer. It's
(26:13):
a no brainer when you get there. It's it's it's
not a thing to find first before you realize what
you do with it. It goes the other way.
Speaker 2 (26:21):
Yeah, I have a similar ish heuristic. Motivation follows action,
not the other way around. Right, And but the action
bit is linked to your purpose and values. And there's
so many people who are out there waiting for the
motivation fairy to come along and give them a dollop
(26:43):
of motivation to be motivated around their health or their
their life, or or their work or whatever it may be.
And and and this is the thing you want, the
you want the motivation ferry, start freaking acting towards a
meaningful goal that's aligned with your purpose and values. Yes,
there's where the motivation ferry lives under that rock.
Speaker 1 (27:03):
Why did no one read that book? Now? That was
not written at the start of humanity? Do you know
what I mean? That thing about it just it has
to follow You're absolutely right. It follows action.
Speaker 2 (27:15):
And there's now a whole host of neuroscience experiments that
shows that when you're bringing perceives that you're in forwards
motion towards a valued gold, that's when it releases dopamine. Beautiful,
and that's what propels you to do further stuff. So
tell us for people who are listening, going okay, so
(27:38):
they're talking a lot about purpose and values. This this
continually comes up. Are there any tools that you have
or little exercises that people can do if they're unclear
about this? Because often in workshops, you know, I'll ask
an audience, you know, when we're talking about purpose, So
(27:59):
who here would have a clear sense of meaning and
purpose in their life? Typically I'll get five to ten
percent hands going up, and then there'll be a chunk
of people. I'll ask, well, who has thought about this
and has wrestled with it? And you get the majority
of the audience and then I'm like, who else is going,
what the fuck are you talking about? Dude? Right? And
(28:20):
a few hands go up laughingly. So some people are
completely rudderless in life. Some people the rudder is kind
of weaving but not fixed. So how do you help
people to discover what their purpose and values are?
Speaker 1 (28:42):
So? Interestingly, I mean, I really want you to at
some point come back to the point that you made
earlier about dopament, because I think it's an incredibly important
line that we have to underline for absolutely everyone that listens. Right, Yeah,
the whole thing about how is your how is our
system designed? And why is our system designed in such
a way that the good stuff follows action, it doesn't
(29:04):
proceed it. You really have to, I think, make a
small little chunk of this conversation with you on that alone.
Speaker 2 (29:10):
If you don't, let's stay on that and then we'll
move to it. Yes.
Speaker 1 (29:14):
Yeah, So the first thing that I wanted to suggest this,
when we are looking for purpose and values, we oftentimes
are deceiving ourselves that it's some sort of cerebel exercise, right,
that it's something we need to intellectualize. There is an
element of that. But it doesn't happen within and it
doesn't happen in spite of the world outside of us.
(29:35):
I've come to realize, and I'm sure it exists widely
in the literature, that it happens in living. And so
what I mean by that, we've got simple formulas, right,
There are tools in my book, There are tools everywhere around.
How would you define your purpose? The simple reference we've
all seen is that three circle, you know, kind of
model right where you overlay your ability with your passion
(29:57):
and opportunity. And in that little perfect overlad is purpose.
But what it does is that this is just the
starting point to it, right. The job to be done
is to step into it, to test it and to
see how you can grow it. I whan you cat
yourself on that wave feeling fulfilled, feeling satisfied, feeling equally
challenged and supported by your ability bio context as well
(30:20):
as the opportunities ahead of you, there is your purpose.
So the short of it is, when you're talking about purpose,
which is the sort of label you're going to be
going by with life ahead of you, the easiest thing
to do is to start considering what's your passion first
and foremost, what inspires what fuels you? Equally, what keeps
you up at night? Right? That is your really clear
(30:41):
sense of what are the sorts of things that resonate.
We keep thinking that purpose, that same purpose we were
born with, is going to stay with us for life.
In some instances, maybe live life well, hopefully at the
very least expense. It deepens, it broadens even better, It
might becomes something else, It might become multiple different things.
(31:03):
Right faces the stages of life challenges to show up
a little differently. I feel the time when we have
lost our sense of purpose is when we have caught
ourselves in an unhealthy inertia. Right, we just jumped on
that wheel and we didn't realize the turning point had
missed us. So shorthand passion, What fuels, what drives, what
(31:25):
sustains you? Be aware these are indulgent exercises. The biggest
part of the world doesn't appear to have the time
or the opportunity to discuss these sorts of things. Yeah,
it finds you when you walk out the door when
you wake up in the morning.
Speaker 2 (31:37):
Right, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely absolutely. I think one other
question I like to get people to think about as
well as the passion stuff, which I think is critical
is what if it was taken away from you, would
create a massive hole or vacuum in your life. I
think that can also help to guide people. And I
(31:59):
like to get people to do a little exercise what
I call a tombstone statement, which is what would you
like to be written on your tombstone? That would and
I put some guardrails on this, that would sum up
your life, how you want to be remembered and your
contribution to society. All right, So mine and I often
(32:20):
talk about this in workshops, is military man turned educator
to help others be better versions of themselves. But I
said to people that this is just about how you
can make a little difference in your little corner of
the universe. Right, It's not about having a multimillion dollar
(32:40):
startup and an orphanage in Nepal. I think Seneca talked
about is everybody's responsibility to be of value to humanity. Beautiful,
and that kind of I think is helpful for people
to think not just about me, but how I fit
into the world and how I can be a useful
(33:03):
member of a tribe. I keep coming back to that
word usefulness, because to be a functioning member of a tribe,
you've got to be useful to others, not just to yourself,
but to others.
Speaker 1 (33:18):
This means the world, you know, talking about tombstones, right
and purpose one of the some time back we were
hopefully it doesn't sound too that, but we were reflecting
on how many of the tombstones, if you cast your
eye over, it would read much the same, you know,
loving father, loving parent, whatever, and all that kind of stuff.
(33:38):
And that's fine, that's fantastic. Right, you have followed some
version of a script. You have done well sticking to it.
If we are helping support individuals so that they are
better contributors, more worthy humans, then maybe the job to
be done is to be more explicit around how do
you arrive at that place? Do you know what I mean?
And if you were to be you know, a good human,
(34:01):
to be someone who is serving those beyond yourself better,
what is the unique way in which you go about
doing that? Do you know what I mean?
Speaker 2 (34:10):
Yes? And which are if I'm if I'm following you correctly,
they are behaviorally based values. Right, how do you how
do you actually get there? Right? It's that whole then
in the art of motorcycle maintenance. I don't if you've
ever read that book by Robert Persing the line in
(34:31):
that book that's stuck in my head as a nineteen
year old. He was talking about everybody traveling up the
mountain and wanting to get to the peak, and he
said that sometimes it's better to travel than to get there, right,
And that whole part about being fully engaged in the process. Right,
That's a that's a critical part of heartiness, the close
(34:55):
cousin to resilience that I talked about, but also very
important in your concept of resilience. So tell me this,
h what commonality So you've worked with the sas you're
also an org psyche and you work with organizations a lot.
(35:16):
What do you notice similarities and differences when it comes
to the topic of resilience between the essays and in
the bordroom marine corporations.
Speaker 1 (35:29):
Do you know, as much as these environments appear to
feel very different on the kind of outset, they're much
the same when it comes to driving and pig performance
and capacity for contribution. And I love nothing more. I
get to see these things globally and cross contextually. So
you know, from corporate space, yesdessays and extreme military context,
but also athletes and not for profits in between. And
(35:53):
when I get to see that same model so opariety,
that same kind of principle emerging action is when individuals
in this collective are very clear on who it is
that is standing there, holding the ground beneath the feat
and not precisely how they're going to use those capabilities
to serve their mission, which in and of itself actually
affords for awareness, belonging, curiosity, and drive. What I mean
(36:18):
by that is the best context that I've operated in,
and the best pivots we have made have been because
we are working under a sheared understanding of what matters most.
We understand who it is that we are, and we
go after that goal, finding thousand workabouts along the way
to achieve it. That's the beauty of it. And so
(36:39):
the parallels are much the same when you look at
it from this perspective, right being, redients are exactly the same.
You have really clear compelling mission, You have an understanding
of everyone who is standing there unapologetically. The way in
which they assume this position isn't to follow a script,
but to do some version of service with their capability
(37:00):
to that cheered purpose and the capacity for curiosity, which
allows us to then look beyond the obvious break silos
and think about how we could do things even better.
That unrelenting pursuit of excellence that happens because they understand
who they are, they know those around them in the context.
They have profound sense of purpose within that is evolving
(37:22):
as they engage with the challenge, and then the result emerges.
And I love nothing more than seeing these parallels over
and over and over again. I don't show up with
an ABCD script, you know. I wait to see what
the context needs, and in retrospect it always fits that
cadence for life, you know.
Speaker 2 (37:43):
And I think a little bit that you said about
finding the worker rends in life, I would add to
that being fully engaged in the context of finding the
worker rends in life, because that's where the beauty lies
for me, is he's actually getting fully immersed and engaged
(38:06):
in the ship as well as the lovely stuff and
finding that that meaning in suffering and drive, I think
is just so critical with all of this.
Speaker 1 (38:19):
I couldn't agree with you more. I couldn't agree with
you more. It's in the contrasts.
Speaker 2 (38:23):
Right, do you know the one thing that I have noticed,
and this will this will will go to my last
question is because I've worked with military, done some of
my studies with him with my pH d, I've also
worked a lot with corporates and I've worked with elite athletes,
I find that there's one distinction. And I'm generalizing here,
(38:49):
but if you look at I'll take military and athletes
on one side and corporations on the other. The difference
when it comes to resilience is around focus on the
bodily stuff that in the essays the old thing. If
you're not eating, if you're not on watch or are engaged,
(39:09):
you should be eating or sleeping. Right. Athletes talk about recovery,
whereas for for me, a lot of corporates, their recovery
is coming home with Friday night, exhausted with putting a
feed up and a bottle of wine and watching Netflix.
And I say to them, that's not recovery, that's relaxation.
They are. It's very different gravy. And so my last
(39:33):
question then is how important is the focus on the physiology.
I like to talk about psychophysiological resilience or hardiness. Where
does a physiology come into this, and and and how
do you stop drive turning into burnout?
Speaker 1 (39:53):
Mm hmm, thank you for taking usdiah And and do
you know what uh? Earlier on when I was reflecting
on similarities, I'm only speaking of pig performing individuals and
teams here, right, I think great handling stuff, pushing yourself
to just a hard beat before you are in a
state of burnout is wildly responsible thing if we are
(40:16):
after good outcomes, right, that stuff you just highlighted, the
baseline recovery is a non negotiable stuff. So many of
us are kidding ourselves that we can trick the system.
It doesn't work like that. So do you know the
really confronting thing I'm trying to I'm trying to not
waste a minute trying to convince individuals who already know
(40:40):
how important this stuff is, of its importance, because no,
there is no sign on the wall or anyway in
our environment that doesn't tell us recovery is absolutely critical.
Netflix and a bottle of wine. I don't even know
if it amounts to relaxation. It's probably some version of avoidance.
If we are there, perhaps we should sneak in a
run beforehand. Or some sort of weightlifting exercise or something dynamic,
(41:04):
at least to get the system moving, because we won't
be reaching a state of relaxation when we are in
a state of avoidance. Right, too many words to say.
We know that it's not negotiable. There are no shortcuts
in the game of life. Those things need to be
a part of the composition in order for us to
(41:24):
be able to think effectively. I cannot tell you right
so because I work in venture. Right so, some of
the most exceptional and challenging individuals and teams I worked
with are in venture. They're not in the essays, and
the reason for it is that their mission stays on
for eighteen months. We might think it's not life and death,
but for them it feels like it is. Right, it's
(41:45):
a hugely challenging thing. It concerns the identity and a
lifetime of work. So if you are in a state
of law and you are kind of trekking along and
you're about to have your most brilliant idea, these moments
are precious. They need to be contained. We need to
allow ourselves to be there. We can't be in some
version of rigidity that tells us, oh, look, it's eight o'clock.
(42:05):
Stop thinking right now, right, But it's not designed for
us to be in that state forul prolonged periods of time.
I'm concerned that so many of us are deceiving ourselves
to think that maybe tomorrow will be a better day
when we can integrate those basics. Maybe tomorrow never comes,
you know, right now, it's today. I want us to
(42:28):
tempt ourselves in these things, even if it takes ten
minutes here and there. We all know that the only
way to prove the difference that it makes is by
experiencing it. So anyway, recovery critical and actually even before
we get there, building a really strong baseline so that
(42:48):
recovery is something that happens in life as opposed to
an exception to it.
Speaker 2 (42:54):
Yes. Yeah, and if you think that you're going to
your health when you retire, you are completely and utterly bonkers,
because there are there are so many corporates that I
know that that is their mindset that I'm just going
to work, work, work, work, and then when I retire,
(43:16):
I'll switch over and start looking after my body. The
horse is going to have bolted by then. But so look,
they we do unfortunately need to wind this up. This
has been an absolute tour of force on resilience. There's
so there's so many bits that I've written down as
little markers that that that could be a great little
(43:40):
grab for social media, but that the I love the
structure that you've put behind it through not just academic research,
but practical living and observation of others. Where can people
go to find out more about you, to buy your book,
to book you for corporate talks and what other services
(44:02):
do you offer for people who've been listening to this
and go on, I need my little dose of Alia Bodyeleva. Sorry,
do you know what's interesting?
Speaker 1 (44:13):
I've never promoted myself. I don't have a website, and
yet people find me, which is so gay.
Speaker 2 (44:18):
You don't have a website.
Speaker 1 (44:20):
I don't know. I don't have a website. I haven't
promoted myself. Good news though I kind of. I am
on LinkedIn, and I do have colleagues of mind that
monitor that, and I'm genuinely quite keen to help a
worthy mission. So the kinds of environments are work in
a bit of a figure rate. So some of them
were individuals, some of them are teams, some of who
(44:41):
have a lot, some of them not so much. Some
of the environments are working I pay to be a
part of and so it's an interesting piece that. Yeah.
But anyway, I am on LinkedIn. I can be fined
found there. I do have an amazing agent. It's part
of Between two Beers b to be Speakers.
Speaker 2 (45:00):
Yes, we can find you in book you as a
speaker between two Beers. Did you say, oh they are
speaking bureau over in New Zealand they are. Yes, I've
heard of these guys. Okay, So there's no websites. There's
(45:20):
no website. However, you can go to the Resilience Toolkit
on any good bookstore. But also people presumably can just
connect with you. Well actually that's where I found you,
was on LinkedIn and through a connection with a young
Northern irishman across the water, young Games, who we both
(45:43):
know and so look, this has been awesome. So people
can for corporations if they want to book you, just
go to Between two Beers and then they'll be able
to book you to come in and talk to their organization,
because God, people need you and their organizations. But also
they can reach out to you separately on LinkedIn.
Speaker 1 (46:06):
Beautiful yes please and of.
Speaker 2 (46:07):
Course, if you're watching this and this is the book
that you're after. If you're not watching, it's called The
Resilience Toolkit, A proven four step process to unlock your
true potential by doctor Alia Jaalova.
Speaker 1 (46:23):
Nice correct, nicely, don Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (46:27):
Thank you. This has been absolutely awesome. Keep doing what
you're doing, as I'm sure you will.
Speaker 1 (46:32):
Thank you so so much,
There's this huge difference in terms of the extent to
which this fuels or deplets your resilience and capacity for life.
And it's not just what is this thing how, not
just the sheer perimeters of that thing, but what is
(00:22):
this thing supposed to be doing? And so when you
find yourself belonging to something that is bigger, that is purposeful,
that has a positive intent, that has rules written or
otherwise that are supposed to help serve one another, that's
the good stuff.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Yeah, absolutely, And you can see how powerful this stuff is,
you know, when you when you go to environments, particularly
when there is a lack of hope. There's a lot
being talked about over here in Australia about gangs, right
about young gangs, and I know New Zealand has similar problems.
But you look at the psychology of that. It's generally
(01:01):
a bunch of young men with lack of hope who
then kind of get pulled together with this tribalism. There's
this this sort of shared being a valued member of
some sort of a community. And now it's just changed
the morals and the behaviors. Uh. And you have all
sorts of different tribes and communities but we we want
(01:25):
to feel like we're a member of a tribe. I
think that's an innate thing because the human brain is
fundamentally a social organ You'll know as a psychologist how
much of our brain is dedicated to social interactions, to language,
to emotion processing, to understanding intent of others and all
(01:46):
of this stuff. It's just I think it's so fundamental,
that whole belonging, but the way that you talk about
it as well, not just belonging to a group, but
that the whole idea of wet self as well. Can
you just expand a little bit on belonging and are
there any tools in your toolkit resilience tools structure around
(02:10):
belonging that people can use.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
Yeah, I mean, I think so the starting point for
belonging for resilience is effectively understanding the perimeters of just
how much you could do if you knew yourself.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
Right.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
So, the reason why I'm mentioning this is oftentimes when
we're thinking about belonging, we're thinking about something we have inherited.
You describe yourself as a recovering Catholic, right, and oftentimes
what'll be fine is letting go of something we have
been born with or have inherited over time is one
of the hardest things, while resilience. When I'm speaking about
(02:46):
belonging to something that is bigger than you and better
than you, as well as belonging that starts from within,
defining the values, the purpose, the sense of identity that
you have. This is the stuff of magic, right, I
think to build the broader scope. By the way, I
got startled a little bit because there is a bunch
of loud individuals next door, and clearly they're starting there,
(03:10):
They're starting the daylight. So apologies, that's all good. So
the tools around deepening your own sense of belonging and
broadening it. Strangely enough, it starts with awareness. Again, That's
why these things are in sequenced awareness, belonging, curiosity, drive, right,
but really pausing long enough to understand what fuels and
(03:32):
drives you, what sustains you, what are the values and
principles that you uphold, and how many of these are
the echoes of yesterday rather than the thing that matters
most for the future.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
Oh I like that.
Speaker 1 (03:44):
Don't you. Let's can we stay on that for a
hot second?
Speaker 2 (03:47):
Yes? Yeah, because you know.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
When if we are thinking about we're not we are
speaking of belonging for resilience. It's not a different beast,
but it hasn't added little something something than the usual
belonging that makes you you'll soft and cozy on the couch, right,
that's not what we're here for. And so if you're
thinking about the kind of belonging that galvanizeres that focuses you,
(04:11):
that allows you to fortify your attention so that you
can see your way out and thrive, then that is
the stuff that is very again intentional and deliberate. So
many of us define our sense of belonging, our sense
of identity based on heuristic rules of thumb, principles and
values that have been inherited, some kind of trickle down effect.
(04:35):
Seldom do we pose to actually work out where that
stuff comes from. We're taking us. So the echo of
yesterday is only as interesting as it helps inform our future.
That's not about rejecting everything you've come with, but about
being quite clear and quite open about just how much
more you can grow and just how much more you
(04:56):
can give.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
And those echoes of yesterday, some of them will be useful.
Some of them will have been useful at some stage
in your life. But are no longer serving you well,
nigh right, And so it's a bit of an ongoing process.
This thing isn't it?
Speaker 1 (05:16):
Yes, it is, and but I've got it on a
I think it can confidently say it is a It
is a good challenge because you see a kind of
a liken it to traveling with a backpack full of
howf open cans of beans? You don't need, you know
what I mean? You don't need that burden past a
certain point. And I think the ability to boss get
(05:36):
your lessons learned, then continue is essential for anyone who
considers themselves wanting to be resilient and to be driving
in life.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
Right, Yeah, I.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
Love what you said. So you know the piece about
what has served you, what no longer does? And how
do you have to enrich your repertu our for life?
You understanding of it in order to be purposeful, to
be good, to be meaning, to grow. It does require
pausing for a hot second, checking yourself, and then continuing.
(06:07):
So many of the people and teams that I work
with are obstracted by that white noise of unchecked stuff.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
Right, the white noise, the white noise can be all consuming.
And let's talk about curiosity. Curiosity killed the cat. Satisfaction
brought it back, right have you heard of that term?
Curiosity killed the cat? That satisfaction brought it back. But curiosity,
see if your life absolutely taught us through.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
That my favorite thing. Curiosity is absolutely my favorite thing,
and if you can please have more room for it,
then we will be all very happy. So, yes, curiosity
did save our life because it allowed us to look
at what appeared to be a fixed situation from different angles,
including the intention of our tours. And I what hazard
(07:02):
A guess that if you can find space for curiosity
in the acute and it has served us right, then
you should make truckloads of room for it anyway you look.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
Right.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
So, in the context of resilience, I was surprised to
see that when I started researching it, resilience, curiosity didn't
seem to feature with it. That's some years ago. Now
now we know it's an absolute treasure, right, But effectively,
curiosity is one of those things that you can't be
(07:32):
curious and freaked out at the same time, right, interesting, Yeah, Yeah,
It's one of those things that you know, if you
allow yourself the scope for it, the space for it, it
doesn't take much to practice that muscle. It's a micro movement, right,
We're wired for it. What it does is that it
allows you to see what you previously thought was unsurmountable
or overwhelming. It's just a curious space to explore. And
(07:54):
when you get yourself look around the corner just long enough,
you get to see many different ways in which you
can respond rather than react. Right, it's a beauty. All
it takes is asking yourself a hot question here in
the air, a little bit more than you have previously done.
Curiosity is start with this thing that you mentioned earlier,
right from conduct, have to capture one one thousand, two,
(08:16):
one thousand and three, one thousand, taking a breath before
you get yourself in the reaction mode, allowing more of
the inputs of your context to influence you read of
a situation, to choose whether you want to engage with
it or not, and to actually begin to experiment with
different ways of taking your predicament and with curiosity.
Speaker 2 (08:40):
Is it important to be curious about yourself and your
own behaviors and your emotions? Is that helpful from a
resilience perspective?
Speaker 1 (08:50):
I think so, I think so, and I'm saying it
with caution because there is a risk of us becoming
indulgent looking to find the answer within, whereas the answer
is in interaction.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
I find a paralysis by analysis, right. And this is
where talk, some talk therapist drive me mad, where people
just go and talk about their issues and there's no
action associated with it.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
Yeah, it's it's not. It's not a very healthy thing,
is it.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
Now? God Jesus that you can just you can go
down so many rabbit holes in your own head. Uh.
And I think think some talk therapist can actually make
it worse, particularly if there's no action that's aligned with
purpose and values. Right, all the stuff that you talk about.
Speaker 1 (09:37):
That's it. That's it. There is no testing it, there's
no feedback loop.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (09:42):
So, but an element of being curious about yourself is essential.
And I think let's tempt ourselves into this place because
if we are not what we assuming is that I emotion,
the one we get locked into reaction, the read or
the label we picked up about a situation is all
the ris So occasionally going hey, wait hot a second,
(10:04):
what is this thing? What is this? What is this
story I'm telling myself? I think it's really really helpful
because if we get ourselves in the state of actually
recognizing that conclusions, the conclusions we often draw about things
are just the habitual reaction rather than a deliberate response.
This place is better, right, So, yes, wondering where your
(10:27):
responses come from, what purpose they serve, and whether they
serve you is essential. Getting stuck in it not so much.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
Yes, yeah, absolutely. And there's another thing about curiosity that
I think is really important because for me, being curious
not just about yourself in real the whole resilience contacts.
But if we broaden it a little bit, just being
curious about the world I think is hugely important because
(10:57):
I think curiosity is a prerequisite for AWE. And there's
so much really cold shit involved in AWE. Then the
experience of awe, and how then that can flow on
to gratitude. So I like to talk about those three
(11:17):
things as close cousins. Curiosity about the word, about yourself,
about other people, and that then triggers AWE. Right, if
you're not curious about life, then you wouldn't be so
blown away by it. Right. I start off every day
by going to myself one in four hundred trillion, get
(11:39):
the fuck up. And do stuff, right, That's what scientists reckon,
are our odds of having been born. But if you're
not curious about that in the first place, and it's
hard to be awe inspired just with everyday life, the
stuff that's going on. And then if you have real awe,
it is so friggin hard not to be genuinely grateful
(12:02):
about stuff. And I think that's a perspective shifter that
a lot of people miss out when they are just
passive consumers of life being entertained on friggin's screens. Right,
what's your thoughts on all of that?
Speaker 1 (12:18):
I just I absolutely love all of that. You're speaking
of awe, and you know what instantly makes me. It
makes me concerned that so many of us are accustomed
to looking for it elsewhere, you know, like it's a coombastic,
super colorful version of life. But it is abundant and
available virtually every way you look down the hill from
(12:41):
my farm. I was there yesterday with my son and
one of his besties, and they were in awe. A
small little you know, a leaf that hangs off a
spider web over a little river that only forms when
we have abundant rain out here, right, the bottom of
the very small little thing, and you could see them
mesmerized for the longest of time, studying this process of
(13:02):
how have things occurred here? Wondering whether they're still in
a stage of wondering whether you know elves and little
creatures are real? Right? Yes, yes, stories about that stuff?
Now here's your scare folding of curiosity right, not is
something that astonishes you in that moment, begin to appreciate
how the subtleties of it, all the subcomponents of it
that have to travel together to form in this thing
(13:23):
that you are observing and witnessing at the moment exists. Yes,
that is astonishing, right, Whereas you know the alternative of
that is just racing to the mall with you muddy boots,
not having noticed any of that stuff at all, looking
for some kind of gratification loop.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
That's put your head and your freaking phone on the way.
Speaker 1 (13:43):
Yeah, yeah, it's absurd, right, It's just insane. And when
you like these sorts of moments, give you space, give
you time, Suddenly time stretches. You know, thirty minutes walk
down a hill becomes an hour of exploration and ideas remarkable.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
Thing absolutely that you mention in your books often that
I read that I absolutely love things that matter take effort.
What do you mean by that?
Speaker 1 (14:11):
This is part of the wider, unapologetic script for life, right,
And so all of the things that we should be
waking up for that galvanize us, that center us, that
ground us, that give us a sense of momentum, are
the sorts of things we have chosen, right, or the
sorts of things that we feel committed to. And so
(14:32):
I think things that matter take effort is a little
heuristic I have for myself to allow myself never to
take the sorts of things that matter for granted, right,
to invest what I've got in pursuing those goals and
to grow them bigger, louder, more meaningful. You know it.
Also it also challenges us to pause when we catch
(14:54):
ourselves in this gratification cycle of life. That's not what
the good stuff is about, right, because that's the longer
journey and experiencing yourself being able to be your best
version as you traversed some of the gnarliest turns of life.
Speaker 2 (15:09):
Yeah, it's about being in the contest. Yeah, that's it. Yeah,
And you also talk about and this one got me
a procrastination story. So what is a procrastination story? How
do people do it? Why is it useful to do
this little exercise?
Speaker 1 (15:26):
Tell me, tell me, tell me more. I forgotten that,
forgotten that? But why does that excite you?
Speaker 2 (15:30):
Well, no, no, that didn't excite me.
Speaker 3 (15:32):
It needled me because because I I can be guilty
of procrastination and I've I've worked out why, right, And well,
actually it was my wife who worked out why.
Speaker 2 (15:45):
And I think it is because of my time in
the military. I did helicopter search and rescue, I did
anti submony warfare, and it was always better, right it was.
It was full on and and I think I became
an adrenaline junkie out of it. So I tend to
wait until there's a fucking looming disaster before I get
(16:09):
interested in doing stuff, and then I get excited and
completely dialed in. So it was just interesting for me
that procrastination story and what's behind it because I unpacked
and it was actually it was it was a mete
of mine who was my general manager at the time,
a guy called Maya big Maori dude, And we're going
to talk about Maris at the end. And he was
(16:32):
my general manager. I remember him saying to me, Paul,
it's clear to me that every time there's a crisis,
you get excited and that's when you get switched on.
But others don't just remember that, and he's true, It
was absolutely true, And so I will actually procrastinate so
(16:54):
that I create enough of a crisis to get interested
to do the work.
Speaker 1 (17:02):
So thank you so much for sharing this. And I'm
sure a bunch of your audience would absolutely see themselves
in that this is an epic example of awareness, right,
whether you were conditioned like that through your military service
or whether you were innateve like that.
Speaker 2 (17:17):
And yeah, I think it's probably a bit of both, right,
because that's why I got drawn into what I did,
and then it accentuated it.
Speaker 1 (17:25):
I don't want to give any exits out of responsibility
or self but like, think about this is a this
is an epic evolutionary setting, right, Like why waste energy
for something that is non critical? Like who's going to die?
You know? Be it that I'm about to go hunt
and eat? Like what what am I wasting my resources for?
Speaker 2 (17:47):
Right?
Speaker 1 (17:48):
But we don't let ourselves off the hook, even if
we are wire that way, And so the job to
be done then is to discover what it is that
galvanizes you. You don't have to be in a state
of constant burno the whole time. Obviously we don't want
to do any of that stuff. But I'm concerned about
the scripts for life that many of us choose will
have to apply to all of us, disregarding how different
(18:09):
we all are. Right, and so, for example, for some
of us, that procrastination story is procrastinating on the bigger
challenge that we should be focusing our attention on, and
instead seeing ourselves spilling our attention and energy over all
sorts of small stuff that nobody cares about, including ourselves. Yes,
I won't know what version of procrastination is scarier, and
(18:32):
there are plenty of numbers between zero and one, but
I just want to double click on that. Correct me
if I've gone all crazy on it. But one version
of procrastination in life is the one that kind of
waits until things have become totally disaster like to galvanize
and include us. There you are walking in saving us all.
The second one is procrastinating on the big important stuff
(18:54):
by distracting ourselves with a whole heap of small stuff.
Speaker 2 (18:58):
Yes, yeah, absolutely, So in.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
Between all of these things exist an opportunity for us
to pause and appreciate that we have plenty of choice
in some instances, perhaps too much of it. But in
that space we have to become a little bit more intentional. Right, So,
finding your medicine, understanding how your system operates, you know,
what is it that it requires. Does it require peace
(19:24):
and calm in order to be methodical, or does it
require a little bit more of a strain in order
to be galvanized and focused. We're all unique and different.
Some of these things might take us to a bit
of a nasty spike. We have to work on. It's
just a gremlin. We have conversation with it, we sel
for it, and we continue. But I, yeah, I find
that really interesting, those those domains of procrastination and what
(19:47):
it actually might look like in terms of outcomes.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
I love that you said and that something along the
lines of you're not going to absolve you of the
responsibility yourself off because it's interesting. Right, So I have
worked out why I procrastinate, and I could go, oh,
well that's just me and accept how I am, which
is not the right answer, right, It's to understand it
(20:15):
for the purpose of moving forward and actually betterment. And
I actually think if we again come to broader psychology,
I think a lot of mental health labels are absolving
people of responsibility for taking action, right, And I'm not
here incorporating people who have severe mental illness. I'm talking
(20:38):
about the people that have the mild anxiety or mild
depression that they kind of hook on to that label
and it's my anxiety or it's my depression, and it
becomes an excuse not to move forwards, are not to
do the work. And so I love that you said
(20:59):
about not letting absorbing yourself with responsibility, because I think
that's dangerous. Right if we just become curious and go, oh,
this is just me, this is how I am. This
is why I think self acceptance is risky. Right. It's
a continuum, isn't it.
Speaker 1 (21:18):
Did you thank you for doing this for me? Did
you see me biting my tongue trying not to tach labels?
I don't like them because I think they're wildly limiting
unless we do something with them, right, I'm sure that
better understand ourselves and then build up a way forward
that is far more meaningful and agile than we could
have contemplated in the absence of them. But I fully agree,
(21:41):
I see it. Those labels. They're almost a caging device.
Speaker 2 (21:45):
Do you know, love a caging device.
Speaker 1 (21:49):
I just constantly bite my tongue. I catch myself constantly
looking those that just it's a little bit, it's a
little bit disconcerting. Don't know whether we found ourselves in
a place where we understand what might take away from us,
but have been slow to offer us. So then what
do you know what I mean? So I am extremely
(22:10):
keen for us to starting to to start to unleash
ourselves from some of these assumptions, those ways out of life,
because I don't know whether they serve us in any way,
you know, anyway in treapments. Labels can be intrepments unless yes, yeah,
(22:32):
I really love that. So I think let's go ahead
and start putting commas after labels so that we can
start exploring I love commas.
Speaker 2 (22:42):
That's that's really important because and and this is I
think where psychology has gone wrong, And it's that that
there is a risk that the whole psychology industry is
actually minting, just like a central bank mints money, and
(23:04):
and and it's it's well intentioned, right, but I think
we've just gone to a crazy level where there's a
label for this and a label for that and a
label for the other thing. And as you say, there's
no comma or the comma is antake this medication, which
is just is a part like that's another rabbit hole
(23:26):
that we probably shouldn't go down. But I love your
idea of those labels need a comma after them, and
and that brings us nicely into your fourth one. And
and I hope our listeners can see the sequential nature
of this because from the curiosity, going back to belonging,
going back to awareness, then let's all about drive because
(23:49):
for me, this is this is the biggie. Right. So
firstly I would question I have for you is what's
the difference between drive and motivation?
Speaker 1 (24:01):
Ah? Right? So okay, can I start with my favorite heuristic,
which is purpose precedes drive?
Speaker 2 (24:12):
So I love that and your it's very cool.
Speaker 1 (24:15):
Yeah, I absolutely love it. Right, And so again in
that is the answer of the motivation versus drive. I
just don't want to make it simple a simple answer, right,
because it's a biggie. The vast majority of us run
around trying to find a reason of trying to find
ourselves in a state of energized neuroticism so we can
(24:36):
achieve the things we don't want to achieve, Which is
why I'm I'm hesitant to speak about this motivation versus
drive thing, right, because we are putting the card before
the horse or whatever the saying is that basically suggests
we're putting things in the wrong order over and over
and over again. So purpose precedes drive is the easiest
(24:58):
and most impactful heuristic I've come upon. And I attribute
this to my dear, dear friend Sam, who was a
mentor in THEESS and an extraordinary, extraordinary wise man. So anyway,
the point of this is, unless we know and are
assigned to our sense of purpose, the probability of us
(25:20):
being a saying human that is also driven is zilch
to none. And I think we oftentimes become wildly indulgent
expecting that we are going to feel a sense of
motivation and drive towards something that we don't understand, don't
align with, or don't inspire us. Doesn't inspire us, right,
So that's the starting point and the easiest conclusion. There
(25:40):
is bit clear on where it is that you are heading.
Know who you are, not this person standing there holding
the ground beneath your feet, but more importantly, bit clear
on what it is that this journey is about for you.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
Right.
Speaker 1 (25:52):
So, I think so many of us just are in
the state of reactivity or the daily grind, to the
point where we haven't caught ourselves in any way aligned
with what it is that we do. Right, So, purpose
procease drive is incredibly important. Motivation seems to follow when
we have discovered that, Right, It's a no brainer. It's
(26:13):
a no brainer when you get there. It's it's it's
not a thing to find first before you realize what
you do with it. It goes the other way.
Speaker 2 (26:21):
Yeah, I have a similar ish heuristic. Motivation follows action,
not the other way around. Right, And but the action
bit is linked to your purpose and values. And there's
so many people who are out there waiting for the
motivation fairy to come along and give them a dollop
(26:43):
of motivation to be motivated around their health or their
their life, or or their work or whatever it may be.
And and and this is the thing you want, the
you want the motivation ferry, start freaking acting towards a
meaningful goal that's aligned with your purpose and values. Yes,
there's where the motivation ferry lives under that rock.
Speaker 1 (27:03):
Why did no one read that book? Now? That was
not written at the start of humanity? Do you know
what I mean? That thing about it just it has
to follow You're absolutely right. It follows action.
Speaker 2 (27:15):
And there's now a whole host of neuroscience experiments that
shows that when you're bringing perceives that you're in forwards
motion towards a valued gold, that's when it releases dopamine. Beautiful,
and that's what propels you to do further stuff. So
tell us for people who are listening, going okay, so
(27:38):
they're talking a lot about purpose and values. This this
continually comes up. Are there any tools that you have
or little exercises that people can do if they're unclear
about this? Because often in workshops, you know, I'll ask
an audience, you know, when we're talking about purpose, So
(27:59):
who here would have a clear sense of meaning and
purpose in their life? Typically I'll get five to ten
percent hands going up, and then there'll be a chunk
of people. I'll ask, well, who has thought about this
and has wrestled with it? And you get the majority
of the audience and then I'm like, who else is going,
what the fuck are you talking about? Dude? Right? And
(28:20):
a few hands go up laughingly. So some people are
completely rudderless in life. Some people the rudder is kind
of weaving but not fixed. So how do you help
people to discover what their purpose and values are?
Speaker 1 (28:42):
So? Interestingly, I mean, I really want you to at
some point come back to the point that you made
earlier about dopament, because I think it's an incredibly important
line that we have to underline for absolutely everyone that listens. Right, Yeah,
the whole thing about how is your how is our
system designed? And why is our system designed in such
a way that the good stuff follows action, it doesn't
(29:04):
proceed it. You really have to, I think, make a
small little chunk of this conversation with you on that alone.
Speaker 2 (29:10):
If you don't, let's stay on that and then we'll
move to it. Yes.
Speaker 1 (29:14):
Yeah, So the first thing that I wanted to suggest this,
when we are looking for purpose and values, we oftentimes
are deceiving ourselves that it's some sort of cerebel exercise, right,
that it's something we need to intellectualize. There is an
element of that. But it doesn't happen within and it
doesn't happen in spite of the world outside of us.
(29:35):
I've come to realize, and I'm sure it exists widely
in the literature, that it happens in living. And so
what I mean by that, we've got simple formulas, right,
There are tools in my book, There are tools everywhere around.
How would you define your purpose? The simple reference we've
all seen is that three circle, you know, kind of
model right where you overlay your ability with your passion
(29:57):
and opportunity. And in that little perfect overlad is purpose.
But what it does is that this is just the
starting point to it, right. The job to be done
is to step into it, to test it and to
see how you can grow it. I whan you cat
yourself on that wave feeling fulfilled, feeling satisfied, feeling equally
challenged and supported by your ability bio context as well
(30:20):
as the opportunities ahead of you, there is your purpose.
So the short of it is, when you're talking about purpose,
which is the sort of label you're going to be
going by with life ahead of you, the easiest thing
to do is to start considering what's your passion first
and foremost, what inspires what fuels you? Equally, what keeps
you up at night? Right? That is your really clear
(30:41):
sense of what are the sorts of things that resonate.
We keep thinking that purpose, that same purpose we were
born with, is going to stay with us for life.
In some instances, maybe live life well, hopefully at the
very least expense. It deepens, it broadens even better, It
might becomes something else, It might become multiple different things.
(31:03):
Right faces the stages of life challenges to show up
a little differently. I feel the time when we have
lost our sense of purpose is when we have caught
ourselves in an unhealthy inertia. Right, we just jumped on
that wheel and we didn't realize the turning point had
missed us. So shorthand passion, What fuels, what drives, what
(31:25):
sustains you? Be aware these are indulgent exercises. The biggest
part of the world doesn't appear to have the time
or the opportunity to discuss these sorts of things. Yeah,
it finds you when you walk out the door when
you wake up in the morning.
Speaker 2 (31:37):
Right, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely absolutely. I think one other
question I like to get people to think about as
well as the passion stuff, which I think is critical
is what if it was taken away from you, would
create a massive hole or vacuum in your life. I
think that can also help to guide people. And I
(31:59):
like to get people to do a little exercise what
I call a tombstone statement, which is what would you
like to be written on your tombstone? That would and
I put some guardrails on this, that would sum up
your life, how you want to be remembered and your
contribution to society. All right, So mine and I often
(32:20):
talk about this in workshops, is military man turned educator
to help others be better versions of themselves. But I
said to people that this is just about how you
can make a little difference in your little corner of
the universe. Right, It's not about having a multimillion dollar
(32:40):
startup and an orphanage in Nepal. I think Seneca talked
about is everybody's responsibility to be of value to humanity. Beautiful,
and that kind of I think is helpful for people
to think not just about me, but how I fit
into the world and how I can be a useful
(33:03):
member of a tribe. I keep coming back to that
word usefulness, because to be a functioning member of a tribe,
you've got to be useful to others, not just to yourself,
but to others.
Speaker 1 (33:18):
This means the world, you know, talking about tombstones, right
and purpose one of the some time back we were
hopefully it doesn't sound too that, but we were reflecting
on how many of the tombstones, if you cast your
eye over, it would read much the same, you know,
loving father, loving parent, whatever, and all that kind of stuff.
(33:38):
And that's fine, that's fantastic. Right, you have followed some
version of a script. You have done well sticking to it.
If we are helping support individuals so that they are
better contributors, more worthy humans, then maybe the job to
be done is to be more explicit around how do
you arrive at that place? Do you know what I mean?
And if you were to be you know, a good human,
(34:01):
to be someone who is serving those beyond yourself better,
what is the unique way in which you go about
doing that? Do you know what I mean?
Speaker 2 (34:10):
Yes? And which are if I'm if I'm following you correctly,
they are behaviorally based values. Right, how do you how
do you actually get there? Right? It's that whole then
in the art of motorcycle maintenance. I don't if you've
ever read that book by Robert Persing the line in
(34:31):
that book that's stuck in my head as a nineteen
year old. He was talking about everybody traveling up the
mountain and wanting to get to the peak, and he
said that sometimes it's better to travel than to get there, right,
And that whole part about being fully engaged in the process. Right,
That's a that's a critical part of heartiness, the close
(34:55):
cousin to resilience that I talked about, but also very
important in your concept of resilience. So tell me this,
h what commonality So you've worked with the sas you're
also an org psyche and you work with organizations a lot.
(35:16):
What do you notice similarities and differences when it comes
to the topic of resilience between the essays and in
the bordroom marine corporations.
Speaker 1 (35:29):
Do you know, as much as these environments appear to
feel very different on the kind of outset, they're much
the same when it comes to driving and pig performance
and capacity for contribution. And I love nothing more. I
get to see these things globally and cross contextually. So
you know, from corporate space, yesdessays and extreme military context,
but also athletes and not for profits in between. And
(35:53):
when I get to see that same model so opariety,
that same kind of principle emerging action is when individuals
in this collective are very clear on who it is
that is standing there, holding the ground beneath the feat
and not precisely how they're going to use those capabilities
to serve their mission, which in and of itself actually
affords for awareness, belonging, curiosity, and drive. What I mean
(36:18):
by that is the best context that I've operated in,
and the best pivots we have made have been because
we are working under a sheared understanding of what matters most.
We understand who it is that we are, and we
go after that goal, finding thousand workabouts along the way
to achieve it. That's the beauty of it. And so
(36:39):
the parallels are much the same when you look at
it from this perspective, right being, redients are exactly the same.
You have really clear compelling mission, You have an understanding
of everyone who is standing there unapologetically. The way in
which they assume this position isn't to follow a script,
but to do some version of service with their capability
(37:00):
to that cheered purpose and the capacity for curiosity, which
allows us to then look beyond the obvious break silos
and think about how we could do things even better.
That unrelenting pursuit of excellence that happens because they understand
who they are, they know those around them in the context.
They have profound sense of purpose within that is evolving
(37:22):
as they engage with the challenge, and then the result emerges.
And I love nothing more than seeing these parallels over
and over and over again. I don't show up with
an ABCD script, you know. I wait to see what
the context needs, and in retrospect it always fits that
cadence for life, you know.
Speaker 2 (37:43):
And I think a little bit that you said about
finding the worker rends in life, I would add to
that being fully engaged in the context of finding the
worker rends in life, because that's where the beauty lies
for me, is he's actually getting fully immersed and engaged
(38:06):
in the ship as well as the lovely stuff and
finding that that meaning in suffering and drive, I think
is just so critical with all of this.
Speaker 1 (38:19):
I couldn't agree with you more. I couldn't agree with
you more. It's in the contrasts.
Speaker 2 (38:23):
Right, do you know the one thing that I have noticed,
and this will this will will go to my last
question is because I've worked with military, done some of
my studies with him with my pH d, I've also
worked a lot with corporates and I've worked with elite athletes,
I find that there's one distinction. And I'm generalizing here,
(38:49):
but if you look at I'll take military and athletes
on one side and corporations on the other. The difference
when it comes to resilience is around focus on the
bodily stuff that in the essays the old thing. If
you're not eating, if you're not on watch or are engaged,
(39:09):
you should be eating or sleeping. Right. Athletes talk about recovery,
whereas for for me, a lot of corporates, their recovery
is coming home with Friday night, exhausted with putting a
feed up and a bottle of wine and watching Netflix.
And I say to them, that's not recovery, that's relaxation.
They are. It's very different gravy. And so my last
(39:33):
question then is how important is the focus on the physiology.
I like to talk about psychophysiological resilience or hardiness. Where
does a physiology come into this, and and and how
do you stop drive turning into burnout?
Speaker 1 (39:53):
Mm hmm, thank you for taking usdiah And and do
you know what uh? Earlier on when I was reflecting
on similarities, I'm only speaking of pig performing individuals and
teams here, right, I think great handling stuff, pushing yourself
to just a hard beat before you are in a
state of burnout is wildly responsible thing if we are
(40:16):
after good outcomes, right, that stuff you just highlighted, the
baseline recovery is a non negotiable stuff. So many of
us are kidding ourselves that we can trick the system.
It doesn't work like that. So do you know the
really confronting thing I'm trying to I'm trying to not
waste a minute trying to convince individuals who already know
(40:40):
how important this stuff is, of its importance, because no,
there is no sign on the wall or anyway in
our environment that doesn't tell us recovery is absolutely critical.
Netflix and a bottle of wine. I don't even know
if it amounts to relaxation. It's probably some version of avoidance.
If we are there, perhaps we should sneak in a
run beforehand. Or some sort of weightlifting exercise or something dynamic,
(41:04):
at least to get the system moving, because we won't
be reaching a state of relaxation when we are in
a state of avoidance. Right, too many words to say.
We know that it's not negotiable. There are no shortcuts
in the game of life. Those things need to be
a part of the composition in order for us to
(41:24):
be able to think effectively. I cannot tell you right
so because I work in venture. Right so, some of
the most exceptional and challenging individuals and teams I worked
with are in venture. They're not in the essays, and
the reason for it is that their mission stays on
for eighteen months. We might think it's not life and death,
but for them it feels like it is. Right, it's
(41:45):
a hugely challenging thing. It concerns the identity and a
lifetime of work. So if you are in a state
of law and you are kind of trekking along and
you're about to have your most brilliant idea, these moments
are precious. They need to be contained. We need to
allow ourselves to be there. We can't be in some
version of rigidity that tells us, oh, look, it's eight o'clock.
(42:05):
Stop thinking right now, right, But it's not designed for
us to be in that state forul prolonged periods of time.
I'm concerned that so many of us are deceiving ourselves
to think that maybe tomorrow will be a better day
when we can integrate those basics. Maybe tomorrow never comes,
you know, right now, it's today. I want us to
(42:28):
tempt ourselves in these things, even if it takes ten
minutes here and there. We all know that the only
way to prove the difference that it makes is by
experiencing it. So anyway, recovery critical and actually even before
we get there, building a really strong baseline so that
(42:48):
recovery is something that happens in life as opposed to
an exception to it.
Speaker 2 (42:54):
Yes. Yeah, and if you think that you're going to
your health when you retire, you are completely and utterly bonkers,
because there are there are so many corporates that I
know that that is their mindset that I'm just going
to work, work, work, work, and then when I retire,
(43:16):
I'll switch over and start looking after my body. The
horse is going to have bolted by then. But so look,
they we do unfortunately need to wind this up. This
has been an absolute tour of force on resilience. There's
so there's so many bits that I've written down as
little markers that that that could be a great little
(43:40):
grab for social media, but that the I love the
structure that you've put behind it through not just academic research,
but practical living and observation of others. Where can people
go to find out more about you, to buy your book,
to book you for corporate talks and what other services
(44:02):
do you offer for people who've been listening to this
and go on, I need my little dose of Alia Bodyeleva. Sorry,
do you know what's interesting?
Speaker 1 (44:13):
I've never promoted myself. I don't have a website, and
yet people find me, which is so gay.
Speaker 2 (44:18):
You don't have a website.
Speaker 1 (44:20):
I don't know. I don't have a website. I haven't
promoted myself. Good news though I kind of. I am
on LinkedIn, and I do have colleagues of mind that
monitor that, and I'm genuinely quite keen to help a
worthy mission. So the kinds of environments are work in
a bit of a figure rate. So some of them
were individuals, some of them are teams, some of who
(44:41):
have a lot, some of them not so much. Some
of the environments are working I pay to be a
part of and so it's an interesting piece that. Yeah.
But anyway, I am on LinkedIn. I can be fined
found there. I do have an amazing agent. It's part
of Between two Beers b to be Speakers.
Speaker 2 (45:00):
Yes, we can find you in book you as a
speaker between two Beers. Did you say, oh they are
speaking bureau over in New Zealand they are. Yes, I've
heard of these guys. Okay, So there's no websites. There's
(45:20):
no website. However, you can go to the Resilience Toolkit
on any good bookstore. But also people presumably can just
connect with you. Well actually that's where I found you,
was on LinkedIn and through a connection with a young
Northern irishman across the water, young Games, who we both
(45:43):
know and so look, this has been awesome. So people
can for corporations if they want to book you, just
go to Between two Beers and then they'll be able
to book you to come in and talk to their organization,
because God, people need you and their organizations. But also
they can reach out to you separately on LinkedIn.
Speaker 1 (46:06):
Beautiful yes please and of.
Speaker 2 (46:07):
Course, if you're watching this and this is the book
that you're after. If you're not watching, it's called The
Resilience Toolkit, A proven four step process to unlock your
true potential by doctor Alia Jaalova.
Speaker 1 (46:23):
Nice correct, nicely, don Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (46:27):
Thank you. This has been absolutely awesome. Keep doing what
you're doing, as I'm sure you will.
Speaker 1 (46:32):
Thank you so so much,
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