September 15, 2024 • 23 mins
Are you feeling overwhelmed by the pressures of HR? Join us on the latest episode of the People Leaders Playbook as we welcome Julie, a top HR influencer and Senior Partner at UKG, to discuss the pressing issue of HR burnout. Julie sheds light on how burnout can silently creep into our lives, manifesting as extreme fatigue, overwhelming workloads, and the relentless quest to prove our worth. With alarming statistics showing over 40% of HR professionals feel that burnout isn't adequately addressed, Julie's insights are more critical than ever. She emphasizes the importance of recognizing burnout triggers and shares self-care strategies to maintain a healthy work-life balance.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey y'all and welcome back to an episode of the
People Leaders Playbook.
I'm so excited to have you backwith me, and today I'm extra
excited because I have a guestexpert with me and I have
listened to her speak and she isphenomenal on all things HR.
So, julie, thanks so much forbeing here today.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Thank you, misty.
I'm super excited to be here inthe chat with you and let's go,
let's do it.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
So Julie is Senior Partner HCM Advisory and Human
Insights at UKG.
She's a leader in the HRlandscape and was honored as a
Top 100 HR Influencer in 2023.
She addresses diverse audienceglobally, delivering keynotes
and sessions spanning HR,payroll, talent management, and
she is the co-host of the PeoplePurpose Podcast.
(00:43):
With over two decades of HRexperience, she's dedicated to
harmonizing humanity andtechnology, fostering employee
relations and nurturing talentdevelopment.
She champions improved HRexperiences and organizational
relationships, and she's anadjunct professor in HR and
human services.
And what I'm super excitedabout is the topic we're talking
about today, which is HRburnout, and I have experienced
(01:04):
this personally, and you, beingin the world of HR and actually
working in HR yourself, I'm surehave experienced it at some
level or another.
So let's just dump right in.
And for those who may notunderstand what we're talking
about when we say HR burnout,can we start by just giving it a
broad definition.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
Yeah, yeah, wow, and I think that's a, that's a
keyword broad, because I thinkthat this can really manifest
itself in many different ways,which we'll get to.
But if I could, if I could,just quickly level set and let
let the listener, let yourlisteners, know how this came
about in my head.
(01:42):
To to focus on HR burnout.
It was truly from the HRpractitioners.
Now, when I say that, you know,my job affords me the
opportunity to speak to ourcustomers and prospects, you
know, every week and also youknow HR people, business people,
finance people all over thecountry into Canada, and they,
(02:06):
they I'm able to pull myaudiences on for several of the
conferences where I speak, atSHRM and whatnot.
And I asked the question.
I said what is something thatwe don't talk about enough in HR
?
And I asked this question overthe past couple of years and
I've gotten over 500 responsesand over 40% of the responses
(02:26):
said we don't talk enough aboutHR burnout.
And I was like wow.
And then I thought to myselfwhy I was surprised at the
number of people that said theexact same thing, because these
are open-ended questions.
This was not multiple choice.
This was literally peoplewriting mental health, hr
burnout or something to thateffect.
And I counted how many peoplewrote was literally people
(02:48):
writing mental health, hrburnout or something to that
effect.
And I counted how many peoplewrote and that's where I got
that over 40% number and Ithought to myself you know, this
is really interesting because Iwas surprised at how many folks
.
But why was I surprised?
And why I was surprised isbecause when I was a
practitioner, it's not somethingyou think about, it's not
something you talk about, sothat wouldn't have been top of
mind for me.
I thought for sure they weregoing to say, oh, we need better
(03:10):
HR software or we need better,you know, onboarding or whatever
.
But most people said this.
So that's where this topic camefrom.
And to me, the definition of HRburnout, again, it can be really
really widely varied.
And I think burnout itself,that definition is varied,
because we often think ofburnout as not being able to get
(03:32):
out of bed or not being able to, you know, go to work or
calling out sick or just, youknow, being generally unwell.
But burnout also manifestsitself as working too much.
You know, burnout can manifestitself as taking on too many
projects, you know, taking onmore than we can handle.
And then we get to that pointbecause a lot of people feel
like they need to prove theirworth, especially in HR, and
(03:56):
that's a whole otherconversation.
So so, yeah, so I think youknow what is burnout.
You know you get to a certainpoint and you know something's
not right.
Maybe you can't even define itfor yourself, but that could
also be part of it.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
Which 40% is wow.
I mean, that's crazy in itself,but honestly, I'm not surprised
just because I think we spendso much time at least me, and if
you know anything aboutEnneagram and all that, I'm an
Enneagram too, so I'm a naturallike helper.
But I think for me it came in.
I lost sense of taking care ofeverybody else, forgetting that,
(04:34):
like, I still need to take careof me too, and so I think
that's where I allowed it formyself and, I'm sure, other
people.
There's probably a hundredstories of how people get to
that point, but I love that youmentioned that it's not just
needing the mental health day orcalling out sick or needing the
time off.
It's also overworking yourself,thinking that you're doing
(04:54):
what's good for the company andwhat's good for the people that
you're serving, and notrealizing that that too can lead
you down that road of just andfor.
I don't even think it's a pointof not caring, I think it's
just a point of just.
I need to take a breath.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
Yeah, take a breath.
And also, as I've gotten older,brain fog is a real thing too.
Oh, yeah, for sure, whereyou're.
You know we, as humans, weweren't designed to take in the
amount of data that we aretaking in on a day-to-day basis,
and that overwhelms us.
And that overwhelms us beforework, it overwhelms us before
(05:36):
all the other stressors that wehave in our daily lives, and you
know just the amount ofinformation that's out there in
the world.
It makes us tired in a way.
It affects our decision-making.
It affects, you know, oureffectiveness, and I, you know
that's a whole otherconsideration, because that's
not something that's always topof mind.
(05:57):
And you know, I think the otherthing too, is a lot of us,
especially those of us who'vebeen in the human resources
field for a long time, you know,we, we, we've, we've sort of
been conditioned to you just putyour head down and do it,
because this is what this is howwe were raised and this is the
generation that we come from.
You know, or maybe you know,our parents taught us this way,
(06:19):
whatever.
And I think I was like I, I, I,I have some of that in me as
well Like, okay, yeah, you haveto.
It might suck, but you have to.
It might suck, but you have todo it.
Speaker 1 (06:28):
Yeah for sure.
So we talked about the brainfog and even just taking a
breath.
What do you feel like are someother triggers that you can look
for as an HR professional orjust a people leader in general?
It doesn't necessarily have tobe, you don't have to have an HR
title to experience this, butwhat do you?
What other triggers do youthink are part of that kind of
noticing that coming on, thatburnout coming on?
Speaker 2 (06:56):
If you feel like you're socially isolating
yourself at work, if you'reworking too much in a silo, I
think, if you, if you feelguilty about saying no to, to,
to asks, or, you know I and, bythe way, this is easier said
than done, right, I mean I, I, Ithink I, you know I would be.
The way this is easier saidthan done, right, I mean I, I, I
think I, you know I would be, Iwould be inauthentic if I
(07:16):
didn't say that I, you know I've, I've experienced this several
times in my career.
Right, and, and I think thisalso takes a level of
self-awareness, and reallylooking at ourselves and saying
and be giving ourselves grace,but letting us, letting
ourselves know, hey, it's okayto feel this way, right, but but
really, looking at your, yourday to day, are you dreading
(07:36):
getting up and going to work?
Yeah, there are days that wedread, okay, but is this
something that is happening on acontinuous basis?
Right, Because at that point,you know, you have to make sure
that you are reevaluating, orlooking at your, you know,
looking at your priorities, andyour priority does need to be
yourself, because and youmentioned HR, you know, yes, hr
(07:59):
does get a bad rap.
I believe that HR is fightingagainst a stereotype each and
every day.
Our entire profession fights astereotype, fights a stereotype.
You know we don't get a goodrap in the media.
You know, if you look at Tobyfrom the Office or you look at
Cat Burt, the evil director ofHR, or you know I mean and and
yeah, I mean it's sort of likenobody goes to HR just to say
(08:22):
thank you.
I mean maybe, but not often.
I say the same thing aboutpayroll, though.
Right, people go to payroll andthey have a problem.
They don't recognize the amountof work.
It's just pushing a button, no,right, yeah, yeah.
So I think that's another thing, but you know, recognizing when
you feel off and if thatfeeling off is something that
(08:43):
becomes sustained, it'ssomething to look into and also
making sure that theorganization that you work for
shares your values.
I think that's another reallyimportant thing to combat
burnout.
Speaker 1 (08:56):
Yeah, I think that's a great example, and I have
noticed too, on social media, hrgroups that are popping up.
That kind of give you an outlet.
It's a safe space outlet, safespace in quotes, because
everything on social media isout there once you put it out
there.
But it does give you connectionto other professionals to kind
(09:19):
of have some of theseconversations and not feel like
you're so isolated.
So I like that that has poppedup, and I know some
organizations do that as well.
So when we talk about thatself-awareness piece, I want to
sit in that for just a second,because I think that's something
that some people are scared of,because I think, in a way,
they're scared of what they'regoing to find when they have to
(09:39):
start looking at themselves.
It's easy to give grace toother people and help other
people with their problems andbe a resource to them, but when
it comes to looking within,sometimes we get a little, yeah,
I don't want to do that verymuch, you know.
So how?
How have you seen people kindof reach that self-awareness
(10:00):
point to be like, okay, I seethe problem, I need to fix it,
and then here's how I'm going togo?
Do that.
Speaker 2 (10:07):
Yeah, so when you to get to that point?
You know, I think it's a verypersonal thing.
However, one of the one of theways that you can do it is, you
know, there's so many resourcesat our fingertips now that are
totally free, where you can readarticles and you can take
self-assessments.
And you, you know, I think youknow, reading books, listening
(10:28):
to podcasts you have to bewilling to look inward in order
to see it, because if you'reunwilling, you're going to block
yourself from seeing if thereare any issues, and I think that
that's that's very easy for usto do, because we just shrug it
off.
But you know what?
(10:49):
What I've personally done, youknow, is one.
It comes with time and, andtruthfully, age and being a part
of the working world longer,like.
I know that sounds reallycliche, but it's something that,
as I've grown, as I've grown,I've I've come to really learn,
and I remember my dad telling mesomething to that effect that
I'm like, yeah, whatever.
(11:09):
And then here we are Right.
Maybe he was right, but yeah, Idon't know.
I mean, there's so manyself-help books, and I think the
other thing that we don't talkenough about and how do we
combat this right is by usingour voice internally.
Now, what do I mean by that?
I mean asking for what we needto get our job done.
(11:33):
If I look at hindsight, when Iwas an HR VP, there were so many
points in my career where Icould have asked for what I
needed, whether that's morepeople, whether that's better
software, whether that's adifferent office, whether it's a
new computer.
I mean, you name it right.
We've been told no so manytimes in our careers so many of
(11:57):
us in HR because we're seen as acost center and not a strategic
partner that we've been.
You know.
We've been told no.
So it's like, okay, well, I'mjust not going to ask because I
know the answer is going to beno right.
So I would encourage, if you areat that point where you're
feeling burnout or whatever thatterm is to you, because you
know that burnout we can call itmany different things If you're
(12:20):
at that point, I would suggestyou know really asking yourself
do you have the tools you needto get your job done?
Have you asked?
And if so, when's the last timeyou asked that you need to get
your job done?
Have you asked?
And if so, when's the last timeyou asked.
That's the other thing.
Right Things change, so I thinkthat's something to consider.
Speaker 1 (12:35):
Now, I love what you just said about.
A lot of times HR looks topeople like a call center and
not a strategic partner.
I have been in that positionand it does suck.
I mean it sucks that you feellike you either can't ask, or
you do ask and you getoverlooked, or you don't get a
response or whatever that maylook like.
What is a good way?
(12:58):
You know one of the episodes Idid recently I talked about
leading up.
Sometimes in a leadership role,you're used to leading the
people that follow you all thetime, but a lot of times we
forget that you can also lead upto the people above you who
maybe lack in certain areas, ormaybe they don't necessarily
lack.
They just need that informationand that representation.
(13:21):
But I feel like this is anotherone of those good leading up
opportunities in that is, how doyou make?
How do you I don't want to usethe word convince, because it's
not that you're trying toconvince them, because there
shouldn't be convincing, but howdo you make your upper partners
, your VPs, your C-suites, yourmanagers, change that to where I
(13:45):
am your strategic partner, notjust the call center, even to
those who are listening thatmaybe they're not at a VP level,
or even they're just maybe at adirector level or a manager
level.
How do you start to change that?
Speaker 2 (13:58):
conversation.
Yeah well, one of the ways isby arming yourself with
awareness as to what thestrategic business plan is.
So, instead of being told, soasking questions If you're not
involved in meetings that youfeel like you should be, ask to
be involved in them.
If the answer is no, ask if youcan see notes from those
meetings.
Ask if you can be.
(14:19):
You know you have to use yourvoice in this world of you know.
It's so condensed and there'sso many decisions being made and
so many people you knowinvolved in those decisions.
You have to use your voice toask for what you need, and I
know I said that before, butit's the truth.
The other thing is to when youunderstand and when you know
(14:41):
those business objectives andthose business decisions and how
your people processes can fitinto them.
The only way that we can knowthat is by utilizing data and
looking at the data, but youhave to have data that you can
trust.
I think that's important toknow too right, we can't just be
using spreadsheets and whatnot.
So whatever it is that you'reutilizing, making sure that
(15:02):
you're able to provide data tostakeholders outside of HR that
will help them achieve theirstrategic goals and help the
business achieve its strategicgoal.
So that helps HR be positionedas more of a strategic partner
rather than just a cost centeror just somebody who does the
(15:24):
onboarding and is a paper pusher.
Because really it's crazy thatwe're still having this
conversation today and I feelsometimes that the folks who
have made those leaps and boundsto get to that point they don't
understand that it is still athing for so many thousands and
thousands of HR professionalsthat I know, misty, you and I
(15:46):
talk to all the time.
Right, so it is still a thingand if you've had it figured out
, help someone else.
You know, I think that'ssomething else too.
You know networking with eachother.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
So we've talked about acknowledging the burnout and
the triggers for burnout.
Give us like three really goodpractical action, taking steps
to move past it or get throughit, and what that might look
like and I know it'll be alittle different for everybody
but like two or three, justgeneral ideas that maybe you can
(16:20):
, somebody could tweak to fittheir own situation.
Speaker 2 (16:24):
Yeah, you know this is going to sound cliche, but
you need to physically take careof yourself, even if it's
starting very small.
If you're not someone who'sinto crazy exercise, you know
that's fine, but there are.
There are, uh, there arebenefits to doing things just
(16:45):
simply like walking and gettingoutside and getting you know
that vitamin D right.
Um, it sounds cliche, but inthis world where we're sitting
in front of a screen all day, alot of us are doing that.
You know we forget just howimportant it is to do things
like a practical step.
Don't eat lunch at your desk,you know whether you're home or
(17:06):
if you're in an office, doesn'tmatter.
Getting out of your physicalenvironment to work where you
typically work is also reallyhelpful for a lot of people.
For me, I enjoy going to, youknow coffee shops and you know
all sorts of different placeslike that, just to have a change
of scenery.
Typically the Wi-Fi is prettygood and you know, just looking
(17:29):
at, looking at at something likethat is another sort of
practical step, actionable thingthat you can do.
Again, doesn't have to be ahuge, these monumental changes.
The other thing practicallythat you can do is to understand
where your priorities arecurrently.
So all of us have things thatare sort of hanging over our
(17:52):
head that we have to do.
Now, I'll say work, but hey,life too right.
There's a tool called theEisenhower Matrix, and if
anybody isn't familiar with that, just go ahead and Google it.
It's all over the place.
The Eisenhower just like thepresident, because he created it
.
It's a four box matrix thathelps with prioritizing, and in
the upper quadrant of theleft-hand side of the box it's
(18:14):
things that are urgent and youhave to do right now and then
sort of as you go around the boxit goes to you get to a point
where it's like not urgent andyou can delete and that's what
you really want to find.
But you can also I think wealso take on too many tasks
alone.
So delegating to people who areunder you and recognizing too
(18:35):
that if they are asking you asHR to plan the party, that's
definitely not always in the jobdescription, unless you really
like planning parties, that'syou know, that's.
I think that's anotherconsideration, you know.
Find it, find what it is thatyou love and lean into that.
Speaker 1 (18:51):
Well, and I also use another resource, the Full Focus
Planner, where it's kind of youplan your top three priorities
for the day and then the rest ofyour to-do list is there.
But you know you have to getthose three things done and I
have used that for probably ayear now and it does give you
kind of at the end of the day,when you can kind of review back
over it, that sense ofaccomplishment OK, I did the
(19:15):
three big things and nowtomorrow I can move three more
things up and it just kind ofweeds away at that.
I do love the with theEisenhower though, the delete
box, because I think there's alot of things like you said.
You say yes to them, yes, okay,just to please, you all do it,
but you really have no interestwhatsoever, and so it's kind of
one of those what I call fuelsuckers of you're having to
(19:36):
invest time in something youdon't really care about, you
don't want to do.
So yeah, delete it, delegate it.
And even, as I know, severalpeople that listen are kind of
HR or team of one people.
Speaker 2 (19:48):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:50):
Even if you don't have like an HR team to delegate
to, there may be other peoplewithin your organization who you
know loves doing party planningand you know that and you're
like, hey, do you want to takeon this?
And so there are ways.
Even if you're just one person,still do some of that.
And I love something you saidearlier in the episode no is a
complete sentence.
(20:10):
It took me many, many years tofigure that out.
I think it's still hardsometimes to use it as a
complete sentence and certainthings, but it goes back to just
.
It gives you an option to nothave to say yes to everything
just because you feel likeyou're in a position that you
need to yeah, I've been there.
Speaker 2 (20:29):
I've been there.
I'm still working through thatfrom being transparent, right.
You know, I in my role, humbly,I get asked to do a lot of
things and I'm starting torealize just how important it is
to not say yes to everything.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
So absolutely, absolutely Well, julie.
Thank you so so much forbringing this topic to light for
us and spending some time withus today to talk about it.
I'm super excited.
For those of you listening,Julie is going to be doing one
of our breakout sessions at theMississippi State HR Conference
in September.
So if you want to see her inperson, you can come September
(21:03):
9th through the 11th to the IPMBiloxi.
She will be there talking aboutchanging conversation, new
conversations in HR.
Speaker 2 (21:10):
So I'm really excited yeah, we'll be talking about
some of this and, I have to say,really looking forward to
coming back to Mississippi,having just been there for the
first time a few weeks ago,falling in love, so looking
forward to it Awesome.
Speaker 1 (21:23):
Well, Julie, if you will, as we wrap up, just tell
everybody how they can reach out, follow you and keep up with
all the things you have going on.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
Yeah, feel free to reach out to me juliedevlin
D-E-V-E-L-I-N at ukgcom, or Iwould love for you to follow me
on LinkedIn.
You could just search my nameand I will be there.
I'm very active on LinkedIn.
I really find that to be afantastic networking tool.
I know so many of us do, but,as social media goes, I think
there's less noise there thananywhere else.
Um, so really, uh, really thinkthat's a great platform.
Would love to connect witheveryone.
Hey y'all and welcome back to an episode of the
People Leaders Playbook.
I'm so excited to have you backwith me, and today I'm extra
excited because I have a guestexpert with me and I have
listened to her speak and she isphenomenal on all things HR.
So, julie, thanks so much forbeing here today.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Thank you, misty.
I'm super excited to be here inthe chat with you and let's go,
let's do it.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
So Julie is Senior Partner HCM Advisory and Human
Insights at UKG.
She's a leader in the HRlandscape and was honored as a
Top 100 HR Influencer in 2023.
She addresses diverse audienceglobally, delivering keynotes
and sessions spanning HR,payroll, talent management, and
she is the co-host of the PeoplePurpose Podcast.
(00:43):
With over two decades of HRexperience, she's dedicated to
harmonizing humanity andtechnology, fostering employee
relations and nurturing talentdevelopment.
She champions improved HRexperiences and organizational
relationships, and she's anadjunct professor in HR and
human services.
And what I'm super excitedabout is the topic we're talking
about today, which is HRburnout, and I have experienced
(01:04):
this personally, and you, beingin the world of HR and actually
working in HR yourself, I'm surehave experienced it at some
level or another.
So let's just dump right in.
And for those who may notunderstand what we're talking
about when we say HR burnout,can we start by just giving it a
broad definition.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
Yeah, yeah, wow, and I think that's a, that's a
keyword broad, because I thinkthat this can really manifest
itself in many different ways,which we'll get to.
But if I could, if I could,just quickly level set and let
let the listener, let yourlisteners, know how this came
about in my head.
(01:42):
To to focus on HR burnout.
It was truly from the HRpractitioners.
Now, when I say that, you know,my job affords me the
opportunity to speak to ourcustomers and prospects, you
know, every week and also youknow HR people, business people,
finance people all over thecountry into Canada, and they,
(02:06):
they I'm able to pull myaudiences on for several of the
conferences where I speak, atSHRM and whatnot.
And I asked the question.
I said what is something thatwe don't talk about enough in HR
?
And I asked this question overthe past couple of years and
I've gotten over 500 responsesand over 40% of the responses
(02:26):
said we don't talk enough aboutHR burnout.
And I was like wow.
And then I thought to myselfwhy I was surprised at the
number of people that said theexact same thing, because these
are open-ended questions.
This was not multiple choice.
This was literally peoplewriting mental health, hr
burnout or something to thateffect.
And I counted how many peoplewrote was literally people
(02:48):
writing mental health, hrburnout or something to that
effect.
And I counted how many peoplewrote and that's where I got
that over 40% number and Ithought to myself you know, this
is really interesting because Iwas surprised at how many folks
.
But why was I surprised?
And why I was surprised isbecause when I was a
practitioner, it's not somethingyou think about, it's not
something you talk about, sothat wouldn't have been top of
mind for me.
I thought for sure they weregoing to say, oh, we need better
(03:10):
HR software or we need better,you know, onboarding or whatever
.
But most people said this.
So that's where this topic camefrom.
And to me, the definition of HRburnout, again, it can be really
really widely varied.
And I think burnout itself,that definition is varied,
because we often think ofburnout as not being able to get
(03:32):
out of bed or not being able to, you know, go to work or
calling out sick or just, youknow, being generally unwell.
But burnout also manifestsitself as working too much.
You know, burnout can manifestitself as taking on too many
projects, you know, taking onmore than we can handle.
And then we get to that pointbecause a lot of people feel
like they need to prove theirworth, especially in HR, and
(03:56):
that's a whole otherconversation.
So so, yeah, so I think youknow what is burnout.
You know you get to a certainpoint and you know something's
not right.
Maybe you can't even define itfor yourself, but that could
also be part of it.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
Which 40% is wow.
I mean, that's crazy in itself,but honestly, I'm not surprised
just because I think we spendso much time at least me, and if
you know anything aboutEnneagram and all that, I'm an
Enneagram too, so I'm a naturallike helper.
But I think for me it came in.
I lost sense of taking care ofeverybody else, forgetting that,
(04:34):
like, I still need to take careof me too, and so I think
that's where I allowed it formyself and, I'm sure, other
people.
There's probably a hundredstories of how people get to
that point, but I love that youmentioned that it's not just
needing the mental health day orcalling out sick or needing the
time off.
It's also overworking yourself,thinking that you're doing
(04:54):
what's good for the company andwhat's good for the people that
you're serving, and notrealizing that that too can lead
you down that road of just andfor.
I don't even think it's a pointof not caring, I think it's
just a point of just.
I need to take a breath.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
Yeah, take a breath.
And also, as I've gotten older,brain fog is a real thing too.
Oh, yeah, for sure, whereyou're.
You know we, as humans, weweren't designed to take in the
amount of data that we aretaking in on a day-to-day basis,
and that overwhelms us.
And that overwhelms us beforework, it overwhelms us before
(05:36):
all the other stressors that wehave in our daily lives, and you
know just the amount ofinformation that's out there in
the world.
It makes us tired in a way.
It affects our decision-making.
It affects, you know, oureffectiveness, and I, you know
that's a whole otherconsideration, because that's
not something that's always topof mind.
(05:57):
And you know, I think the otherthing too, is a lot of us,
especially those of us who'vebeen in the human resources
field for a long time, you know,we, we, we've, we've sort of
been conditioned to you just putyour head down and do it,
because this is what this is howwe were raised and this is the
generation that we come from.
You know, or maybe you know,our parents taught us this way,
(06:19):
whatever.
And I think I was like I, I, I,I have some of that in me as
well Like, okay, yeah, you haveto.
It might suck, but you have to.
It might suck, but you have todo it.
Speaker 1 (06:28):
Yeah for sure.
So we talked about the brainfog and even just taking a
breath.
What do you feel like are someother triggers that you can look
for as an HR professional orjust a people leader in general?
It doesn't necessarily have tobe, you don't have to have an HR
title to experience this, butwhat do you?
What other triggers do youthink are part of that kind of
noticing that coming on, thatburnout coming on?
Speaker 2 (06:56):
If you feel like you're socially isolating
yourself at work, if you'reworking too much in a silo, I
think, if you, if you feelguilty about saying no to, to,
to asks, or, you know I and, bythe way, this is easier said
than done, right, I mean I, I, Ithink I, you know I would be.
The way this is easier saidthan done, right, I mean I, I, I
think I, you know I would be, Iwould be inauthentic if I
(07:16):
didn't say that I, you know I've, I've experienced this several
times in my career.
Right, and, and I think thisalso takes a level of
self-awareness, and reallylooking at ourselves and saying
and be giving ourselves grace,but letting us, letting
ourselves know, hey, it's okayto feel this way, right, but but
really, looking at your, yourday to day, are you dreading
(07:36):
getting up and going to work?
Yeah, there are days that wedread, okay, but is this
something that is happening on acontinuous basis?
Right, Because at that point,you know, you have to make sure
that you are reevaluating, orlooking at your, you know,
looking at your priorities, andyour priority does need to be
yourself, because and youmentioned HR, you know, yes, hr
(07:59):
does get a bad rap.
I believe that HR is fightingagainst a stereotype each and
every day.
Our entire profession fights astereotype, fights a stereotype.
You know we don't get a goodrap in the media.
You know, if you look at Tobyfrom the Office or you look at
Cat Burt, the evil director ofHR, or you know I mean and and
yeah, I mean it's sort of likenobody goes to HR just to say
(08:22):
thank you.
I mean maybe, but not often.
I say the same thing aboutpayroll, though.
Right, people go to payroll andthey have a problem.
They don't recognize the amountof work.
It's just pushing a button, no,right, yeah, yeah.
So I think that's another thing, but you know, recognizing when
you feel off and if thatfeeling off is something that
(08:43):
becomes sustained, it'ssomething to look into and also
making sure that theorganization that you work for
shares your values.
I think that's another reallyimportant thing to combat
burnout.
Speaker 1 (08:56):
Yeah, I think that's a great example, and I have
noticed too, on social media, hrgroups that are popping up.
That kind of give you an outlet.
It's a safe space outlet, safespace in quotes, because
everything on social media isout there once you put it out
there.
But it does give you connectionto other professionals to kind
(09:19):
of have some of theseconversations and not feel like
you're so isolated.
So I like that that has poppedup, and I know some
organizations do that as well.
So when we talk about thatself-awareness piece, I want to
sit in that for just a second,because I think that's something
that some people are scared of,because I think, in a way,
they're scared of what they'regoing to find when they have to
(09:39):
start looking at themselves.
It's easy to give grace toother people and help other
people with their problems andbe a resource to them, but when
it comes to looking within,sometimes we get a little, yeah,
I don't want to do that verymuch, you know.
So how?
How have you seen people kindof reach that self-awareness
(10:00):
point to be like, okay, I seethe problem, I need to fix it,
and then here's how I'm going togo?
Do that.
Speaker 2 (10:07):
Yeah, so when you to get to that point?
You know, I think it's a verypersonal thing.
However, one of the one of theways that you can do it is, you
know, there's so many resourcesat our fingertips now that are
totally free, where you can readarticles and you can take
self-assessments.
And you, you know, I think youknow, reading books, listening
(10:28):
to podcasts you have to bewilling to look inward in order
to see it, because if you'reunwilling, you're going to block
yourself from seeing if thereare any issues, and I think that
that's that's very easy for usto do, because we just shrug it
off.
But you know what?
(10:49):
What I've personally done, youknow, is one.
It comes with time and, andtruthfully, age and being a part
of the working world longer,like.
I know that sounds reallycliche, but it's something that,
as I've grown, as I've grown,I've I've come to really learn,
and I remember my dad telling mesomething to that effect that
I'm like, yeah, whatever.
(11:09):
And then here we are Right.
Maybe he was right, but yeah, Idon't know.
I mean, there's so manyself-help books, and I think the
other thing that we don't talkenough about and how do we
combat this right is by usingour voice internally.
Now, what do I mean by that?
I mean asking for what we needto get our job done.
(11:33):
If I look at hindsight, when Iwas an HR VP, there were so many
points in my career where Icould have asked for what I
needed, whether that's morepeople, whether that's better
software, whether that's adifferent office, whether it's a
new computer.
I mean, you name it right.
We've been told no so manytimes in our careers so many of
(11:57):
us in HR because we're seen as acost center and not a strategic
partner that we've been.
You know.
We've been told no.
So it's like, okay, well, I'mjust not going to ask because I
know the answer is going to beno right.
So I would encourage, if you areat that point where you're
feeling burnout or whatever thatterm is to you, because you
know that burnout we can call itmany different things If you're
(12:20):
at that point, I would suggestyou know really asking yourself
do you have the tools you needto get your job done?
Have you asked?
And if so, when's the last timeyou asked that you need to get
your job done?
Have you asked?
And if so, when's the last timeyou asked.
That's the other thing.
Right Things change, so I thinkthat's something to consider.
Speaker 1 (12:35):
Now, I love what you just said about.
A lot of times HR looks topeople like a call center and
not a strategic partner.
I have been in that positionand it does suck.
I mean it sucks that you feellike you either can't ask, or
you do ask and you getoverlooked, or you don't get a
response or whatever that maylook like.
What is a good way?
(12:58):
You know one of the episodes Idid recently I talked about
leading up.
Sometimes in a leadership role,you're used to leading the
people that follow you all thetime, but a lot of times we
forget that you can also lead upto the people above you who
maybe lack in certain areas, ormaybe they don't necessarily
lack.
They just need that informationand that representation.
(13:21):
But I feel like this is anotherone of those good leading up
opportunities in that is, how doyou make?
How do you I don't want to usethe word convince, because it's
not that you're trying toconvince them, because there
shouldn't be convincing, but howdo you make your upper partners
, your VPs, your C-suites, yourmanagers, change that to where I
(13:45):
am your strategic partner, notjust the call center, even to
those who are listening thatmaybe they're not at a VP level,
or even they're just maybe at adirector level or a manager
level.
How do you start to change that?
Speaker 2 (13:58):
conversation.
Yeah well, one of the ways isby arming yourself with
awareness as to what thestrategic business plan is.
So, instead of being told, soasking questions If you're not
involved in meetings that youfeel like you should be, ask to
be involved in them.
If the answer is no, ask if youcan see notes from those
meetings.
Ask if you can be.
(14:19):
You know you have to use yourvoice in this world of you know.
It's so condensed and there'sso many decisions being made and
so many people you knowinvolved in those decisions.
You have to use your voice toask for what you need, and I
know I said that before, butit's the truth.
The other thing is to when youunderstand and when you know
(14:41):
those business objectives andthose business decisions and how
your people processes can fitinto them.
The only way that we can knowthat is by utilizing data and
looking at the data, but youhave to have data that you can
trust.
I think that's important toknow too right, we can't just be
using spreadsheets and whatnot.
So whatever it is that you'reutilizing, making sure that
(15:02):
you're able to provide data tostakeholders outside of HR that
will help them achieve theirstrategic goals and help the
business achieve its strategicgoal.
So that helps HR be positionedas more of a strategic partner
rather than just a cost centeror just somebody who does the
(15:24):
onboarding and is a paper pusher.
Because really it's crazy thatwe're still having this
conversation today and I feelsometimes that the folks who
have made those leaps and boundsto get to that point they don't
understand that it is still athing for so many thousands and
thousands of HR professionalsthat I know, misty, you and I
(15:46):
talk to all the time.
Right, so it is still a thingand if you've had it figured out
, help someone else.
You know, I think that'ssomething else too.
You know networking with eachother.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
So we've talked about acknowledging the burnout and
the triggers for burnout.
Give us like three really goodpractical action, taking steps
to move past it or get throughit, and what that might look
like and I know it'll be alittle different for everybody
but like two or three, justgeneral ideas that maybe you can
(16:20):
, somebody could tweak to fittheir own situation.
Speaker 2 (16:24):
Yeah, you know this is going to sound cliche, but
you need to physically take careof yourself, even if it's
starting very small.
If you're not someone who'sinto crazy exercise, you know
that's fine, but there are.
There are, uh, there arebenefits to doing things just
(16:45):
simply like walking and gettingoutside and getting you know
that vitamin D right.
Um, it sounds cliche, but inthis world where we're sitting
in front of a screen all day, alot of us are doing that.
You know we forget just howimportant it is to do things
like a practical step.
Don't eat lunch at your desk,you know whether you're home or
(17:06):
if you're in an office, doesn'tmatter.
Getting out of your physicalenvironment to work where you
typically work is also reallyhelpful for a lot of people.
For me, I enjoy going to, youknow coffee shops and you know
all sorts of different placeslike that, just to have a change
of scenery.
Typically the Wi-Fi is prettygood and you know, just looking
(17:29):
at, looking at at something likethat is another sort of
practical step, actionable thingthat you can do.
Again, doesn't have to be ahuge, these monumental changes.
The other thing practicallythat you can do is to understand
where your priorities arecurrently.
So all of us have things thatare sort of hanging over our
(17:52):
head that we have to do.
Now, I'll say work, but hey,life too right.
There's a tool called theEisenhower Matrix, and if
anybody isn't familiar with that, just go ahead and Google it.
It's all over the place.
The Eisenhower just like thepresident, because he created it
.
It's a four box matrix thathelps with prioritizing, and in
the upper quadrant of theleft-hand side of the box it's
(18:14):
things that are urgent and youhave to do right now and then
sort of as you go around the boxit goes to you get to a point
where it's like not urgent andyou can delete and that's what
you really want to find.
But you can also I think wealso take on too many tasks
alone.
So delegating to people who areunder you and recognizing too
(18:35):
that if they are asking you asHR to plan the party, that's
definitely not always in the jobdescription, unless you really
like planning parties, that'syou know, that's.
I think that's anotherconsideration, you know.
Find it, find what it is thatyou love and lean into that.
Speaker 1 (18:51):
Well, and I also use another resource, the Full Focus
Planner, where it's kind of youplan your top three priorities
for the day and then the rest ofyour to-do list is there.
But you know you have to getthose three things done and I
have used that for probably ayear now and it does give you
kind of at the end of the day,when you can kind of review back
over it, that sense ofaccomplishment OK, I did the
(19:15):
three big things and nowtomorrow I can move three more
things up and it just kind ofweeds away at that.
I do love the with theEisenhower though, the delete
box, because I think there's alot of things like you said.
You say yes to them, yes, okay,just to please, you all do it,
but you really have no interestwhatsoever, and so it's kind of
one of those what I call fuelsuckers of you're having to
(19:36):
invest time in something youdon't really care about, you
don't want to do.
So yeah, delete it, delegate it.
And even, as I know, severalpeople that listen are kind of
HR or team of one people.
Speaker 2 (19:48):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:50):
Even if you don't have like an HR team to delegate
to, there may be other peoplewithin your organization who you
know loves doing party planningand you know that and you're
like, hey, do you want to takeon this?
And so there are ways.
Even if you're just one person,still do some of that.
And I love something you saidearlier in the episode no is a
complete sentence.
(20:10):
It took me many, many years tofigure that out.
I think it's still hardsometimes to use it as a
complete sentence and certainthings, but it goes back to just
.
It gives you an option to nothave to say yes to everything
just because you feel likeyou're in a position that you
need to yeah, I've been there.
Speaker 2 (20:29):
I've been there.
I'm still working through thatfrom being transparent, right.
You know, I in my role, humbly,I get asked to do a lot of
things and I'm starting torealize just how important it is
to not say yes to everything.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
So absolutely, absolutely Well, julie.
Thank you so so much forbringing this topic to light for
us and spending some time withus today to talk about it.
I'm super excited.
For those of you listening,Julie is going to be doing one
of our breakout sessions at theMississippi State HR Conference
in September.
So if you want to see her inperson, you can come September
(21:03):
9th through the 11th to the IPMBiloxi.
She will be there talking aboutchanging conversation, new
conversations in HR.
Speaker 2 (21:10):
So I'm really excited yeah, we'll be talking about
some of this and, I have to say,really looking forward to
coming back to Mississippi,having just been there for the
first time a few weeks ago,falling in love, so looking
forward to it Awesome.
Speaker 1 (21:23):
Well, Julie, if you will, as we wrap up, just tell
everybody how they can reach out, follow you and keep up with
all the things you have going on.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
Yeah, feel free to reach out to me juliedevlin
D-E-V-E-L-I-N at ukgcom, or Iwould love for you to follow me
on LinkedIn.
You could just search my nameand I will be there.
I'm very active on LinkedIn.
I really find that to be afantastic networking tool.
I know so many of us do, but,as social media goes, I think
there's less noise there thananywhere else.
Um, so really, uh, really thinkthat's a great platform.
Would love to connect witheveryone.
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