Season 5 Episode 12: "Blurred Boundaries: Classical Meets Jazz" feat. Ophelia Gordon, Concert Pianist & Recording Artist

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(00:00):
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CINEMA

(02:05):
Welcome back to the PianoPod, everyone.
Today I am thrilled to introduce a truly remarkable guest, Ophelia Gordon, a pianist whose artistry
bridges classical and jazz with fresh energy and insight, particularly in the music of
Nikolai Kapustin.

(02:27):
Joining us from London, Ophelia brings a unique perspective on interpreting Kapustin's electrifying
and genre-defying compositions.
Her musical journey is anything but conventional.
She began as a classical guitarist and double bassist studying at the Brit School before
earning degrees in music from Durham University and City University London.

(02:51):
Her passion for exploring different musical languages ultimately led her to the piano
and to Kapustin, whose work brilliantly fuses classical structures with the rhythmic vitality
of jazz.
Now, recognized as one of the most exciting interpreters of Kapustin's music, Ophelia
recently signed with Divine Art Recordings and is set to release her debut solo album,

(03:17):
Kapustin Between the Lines.
Through her performances and teaching and scholarship, she is introducing new audiences
to Kapustin's extraordinary music.
As a pianist and educator myself and podcast creator, I've always been fascinated by
artists who carve out their own artistic identity.

(03:39):
My own journey navigating the classical world while constantly evolving as a musician and
entrepreneur has shown me the importance of vitality, curiosity, and authenticity.
That's why I find Ophelia's story especially compelling.
Her ability to bridge classical and jazz traditions while championing Kapustin's music is a testament

(04:02):
to the power of artistic exploration.
In this episode, we'll dive into Ophelia's fascinating journey, her transition to piano,
her deep connection with Kapustin's music, and how she blends two musical traditions
that are often seen as separate.
Whether you are a pianist, a music lover, or someone passionate about artistic individuality,

(04:25):
this conversation will challenge and inspire the way you think about music.
Before we begin, I want to share something new with you.
Every Friday, I publish a blog on Substack where I go beyond the podcast, offering personal
reflections, behind the scenes insights, and thoughts on music, creativity, and the evolving

(04:46):
role of classical musicians.
If you enjoyed these conversations, I invite you to subscribe at thepianopod.substack.com
for exclusive content and deeper discussions.
Now, without further ado, let's welcome the extraordinary Ophelia Gordon to the Piano

(05:06):
Pod.
Please enjoy the show.
You are listening to the Piano Pod, where we talk to the brightest minds in the industry
about how they are bringing the piano into the future and thriving in a complex, ever-evolving
world.
Welcome to the Piano Pod, Ophelia.

(05:30):
It's such a pleasure to have you on the show.
Yay.
Thank you.
I'm so happy to be here.
Thank you for having me.
Thank you.
So today, from where you are joining us?
Yes.
So I'm joining you from South London.
A small suburb called Dulwich.
Okay.
Yeah, it's very nice.
Wow.
But literally right from the suburbs of London, so quite far away.

(05:54):
Oh, how nice.
I've never actually, I've never been to London, so I really would love to.
Oh, gosh.
Must have.
Yes, I know, right?
So, but before we dive in, I'd like to give a special shout out to Blair Boonmigura, founder
of the Artsong Preservation Society of New York for introducing Ophelia to the Piano
Pod.

(06:14):
Of course, for our listeners, Blair and the Artsong Preservation Society of New York are
no strangers.
They were our sponsor of the month back in November 2024.
So Ophelia, I hear that you were in New York a couple months ago.
Yes.
Yeah.
So I was lucky enough to have been invited to be the resident pianist for the Artsong

(06:36):
Preservation Society, which happens at the Manhattan School of Music every June.
And I became close with Blair earlier last year, and then he invited me out.
And it was a fantastic experience working with roughly about 50 different singers.
And I had to learn an incredible amount of repertoire in a very short space of time.

(07:02):
I think I probably learned up to about 60 different artsong pieces.
Oh my goodness.
Yeah, in about a month.
So that was very challenging.
If my sight really hasn't improved after that, I don't know what will.
But it was fantastic.
And it's a very, very special organization that supports the preservation of artsong.

(07:25):
So that was actually my first time to New York.
So what an amazing first time.
Wow.
Yes.
That's great.
It's made me hungry for more.
So I can't wait to get back out there.
And yeah, it was a fantastic experience.
Will you be back for this summer?

(07:47):
This summer, I'm not sure at the moment.
I've got quite a lot going on at the moment in London.
And I think that's exciting.
Yes.
I think it's taking up quite a lot of time, and I'm sure we're going to get into that
in the chat.
But hopefully there will be more opportunities.
And yeah, I'm definitely going to be coming out at some point soon.

(08:09):
So that would be good.
Yeah, you have to come back again and so that we can meet soon.
Yes.
Yeah, definitely.
Yeah.
Wow, great.
But so today I'm really, really looking forward to exploring the unique style and legacy of
groundbreaking Ukrainian composer Nikolai Kupustin, whose extensive innovative works
have been performed by renowned pianists and cherished by so many.

(08:33):
But surprised to know that his works remain relatively undiscovered until the later years
in his life, no?
Yes.
Yeah.
As seems to be the way with certain composers, it's almost as soon as they've passed, that's
when they really come out of the woodwork.

(08:55):
And that's been my experience with him anyway.
So I only recently discovered him in 2022.
Oh, really?
So I've actually never heard of him before.
And then through my research, I've obviously realized that he has kind of sort of from
the 90s is when he was becoming more popular.

(09:17):
But from 38, you know, 1938, nobody really knew of him.
And he's such an incredible composer.
I feel so lucky to be talking about him with you and exploring him.
I'm just incredibly passionate about his music.
Yeah.
And I can tell.
And then I really also want to discover why your obsession, right?

(09:40):
And then I'm sure there are so many stories and explanations and behind it.
But before we go even further, I usually start this question with most of the guests.
So the first one, the first question for our conversation is if you were to capture the
essence of your artistry, mission and passion in just a few sentences, how would you define

(10:07):
yourself as an artist today?
Yes.
So I would say that I'm an artist who doesn't tick any boxes.
I don't fit neatly into a style or an expectation.
I'm very multifaceted.

(10:30):
And my background, my education, my training and now my work really gives this multi diverse
approach.
And I think that as my artistry has been growing and changing and I've been maturing as a pianist,

(10:51):
I'm starting to realise that it's being yourself and being authentic is what makes you an artist.
And that's what gives you the strongest artistic voice.
So it's a hard question.
And I could talk forever about it really, but I think it's just about realising that

(11:13):
I'm not a one size type of artist.
And I have had so many different experiences that actually that's beginning to shape who
I am as a unique person.
And it's about embracing that voice and that authenticity.
Wow.
Well said.
I don't know if that answers the question.

(11:35):
Oh yeah, of course.
Because this season's theme is authenticity and joy on the piano pod.
And it just fits perfectly.
So you said you don't quite fit in, but actually you fit into the piano pod theme perfectly.

(11:55):
Thank you.
But authenticity brings joy and happiness, right?
I think that's it.
I think it can take a long time to figure out who you are.
And then when you start realising actually you're not meant to be another person, you're
not meant to be another type of musician.
We can admire other musicians and we can be inspired by them, but really they are not

(12:22):
us.
And we will only grow as an individual if we embrace ourselves.
And that's what I'm learning to trust more and more.
I'm still kind of at the beginning of my journey.
Although I've achieved great things, I still feel like there's so much that's coming and
I'm still figuring out more about who I am.

(12:44):
But the more I lean into that's what makes me me, the more my audience are connecting
with me.
And the more my playing is improving as well.
Just by trusting, do it your way and believe that and take all the little bits that you've

(13:06):
picked up with you along your way, put that in your music and the audience respond in
a very different way when you really are coming from that mindset.
That's what I've been experiencing recently anyway.
Wow.
Yeah, but to get there to find your own voice is not easy.

(13:28):
It's challenging.
Yeah, yeah.
And I think culturally, in Europe in particular, it can be very difficult because there are
expectations of what musicians should be like, what they should play, how they should play.
There's so much protected repertoire, some of the most amazing repertoire, Beethoven,

(13:53):
Chopin, Schubert, Bach.
It's so protected that if you ever want to try something else, you have to expect some
sort of backlash in some ways, right?
Because it's just been worshiped for such a long time.

(14:15):
But I'm beginning to notice that if you trust your own interpretations and you really have
a reason for why you're playing the music, it changes the perception of the listeners.
It's very interesting how there is this shift once you get to that point, but it takes a

(14:38):
long time to get there.
And I think it really comes from having had life experience.
If you understand what the music is about and how you can relate it to yourself, that
is when your music can really change.
And that's what I've been experiencing.
You've been saying trusting yourself, trusting one's self.

(15:04):
Sometimes it's not easy because like you mentioned, not only in Europe or in the United Kingdom,
but also in the United States too.
What makes it classical music is classical music.
And so just to break a little rule here and there, you almost feel like, am I supposed

(15:27):
to be doing this?
Can I trust my gut?
Can I trust my intuition, instinct?
And we get told so many different things.
So at some point you've almost got to play everything that you've been told and then
almost push it out the window.
So you can pick up bits in the way, but at the end of the day, you playing the music

(15:50):
and you need to connect with the reason why you're playing it.
So it's getting to that stage and just trusting that everyone is going to have a different
opinion about how you're playing, but they can never argue with why you're playing.
And if you are able to demonstrate that emotional connection that you have, then it totally
changes everything.

(16:11):
But I think it leads into another point of being vulnerable enough to do that because
that's the problem.
I think that's one of the biggest barriers is it's almost like most musicians know I
want to play it because I love it.
You know, this piece reminds me of this or, you know, I have a reason of why I'm playing

(16:32):
this music, but I struggle to be vulnerable enough to show that in my playing.
You know, so you have to be open to letting people really hear the music and where it's
coming from and why you're playing it.
And you don't have to explicitly tell people why you're playing it, but they'll be able

(16:55):
to hear.
That's my experience anyway.
That's been my recent experience.
Wow, that's amazing.
Now we can really talk more in depth.
You already explored a little bit, but yeah, later, much later.
But so I'm really sensing the reasons why you are attracted to Kapustin because he is

(17:18):
his own thing.
Absolutely, absolutely.
So I first discovered his music on BBC Radio 3, which is a very popular radio station here.
And in all fairness, I probably had heard his music as an encore before at a concert

(17:38):
or something, but you know, didn't sort of clock.
And then when I heard this piece, it was within about five seconds, I knew immediately I have
to play this music.
I was like, who is this?
What is this?
I'm going to go home as soon as I get home because I was in the car at the time.
I said, as soon as I get home, I have to find out what this is.

(18:00):
So I went on to the listing, you know, the radio listing of what was being played.
And I saw it and I was like, oh my God.
And I just listened to more and more and more and I just became completely obsessed.
So that's almost three years ago.
And then I started just by playing the first Etude.
I thought this is a good plot.

(18:21):
Where should I start?
You know, so I'd already played varying different types of Etudes, Ligeti, Chopin, you know,
different ones.
But I thought, okay, I'll start with what seems to be one of the most popular pieces
of Poussin.
And it took, I'd say like about a month to understand the language properly.

(18:43):
But then after that, Etude after Etude after Etude just became easier and easier.
And now I'm doing an album.
So it's crazy.
It's going to be about 70 minutes of Capuchin.
Wow.
It kind of just exploded really.
And now, you know, it's like, for me, it's the most comfortable repertoire that I play.

(19:09):
Completely.
Yeah.
I mean, I feel so at home with it.
And I knew that when I first heard it on the radio, I knew that I'm going to be able to
do this music.
Like it just spoke to me immediately.
But going back to what you said about how Capuchin doesn't fit into a box either.

(19:30):
And I think that must be what drew me to him.
Because it had the language, the harmony, the rhythm of jazz.
But it wasn't improvised.
I'm happy to explain a bit about my background and why it spoke to me.

(20:01):
Because I've had a very, very diverse exposure to music.
And I grew up surrounded by jazz music.
That was the sound of my home.
So my mom is also a pianist.
My granddad was a pianist.
My great granddad was a concert pianist based in Paris.

(20:22):
So there's a big lineage.
And it even goes further, further back.
Like my grandma's doing a family tree and she's discovered even more quite prominent
French musicians in the family tree.
So that's very exciting.
I hope to kind of find out a bit more about who's in the tree and how it all connects.

(20:43):
But I grew up predominantly to the sound of jazz because my mom was also a saxophonist.
Pianist and saxophonist.
Oh my goodness.
Yes.
So she had every weekend our home was basically a jazz club.
Oh wow.
And she'd have all her friends over and they'd play boogie woogie, blues.

(21:03):
She'd have all her other sax friends playing and they'd all just be improvising and jamming.
So my memories of being young are hearing that music, watching these musicians play.
And every night before I'd go to sleep, my mom would put jazz music on.
You know, there is that saying, there's that belief that if you play classical music to
a baby, you know, it makes them intelligent.

(21:26):
But I think this must have happened with jazz.
You know, I've kind of developed that taste.
However, my training was classical.
So when I was, as soon as I was old enough to be able to actually play, there isn't really
an age of when I started.
I just began playing.
I was probably about three when I was actually tinkering away and then started four more

(21:51):
lessons probably a year later or something like that.
But the training was straight away classical.
So very traditional, learning to read the music, you know, yeah, very traditional approach.
And I just went through the grades and kind of continued with that.
I started also learning the violin, the guitar, double bass, the trumpet.

(22:13):
Yeah.
And I did them all to quite a high level.
So yeah, it was, it was a very interesting musical upbringing because I was constantly
surrounded by music.
And the interesting thing is that I was listening to jazz, but playing classical music, which

(22:34):
you think, oh, why did I maybe not express to play jazz?
But I think, I think I was almost just doing what was shown to me, you know, or what my
teachers were giving me was like, you know, I have that at home, but I'm doing this at
school and, you know, and with my teachers and everything like that.
So it was amazing when I heard Kapustin because it married those two things together.

(23:01):
You know, it had the classical structure and I knew that it was written.
That was the other thing, although it sounds very spontaneous, you know, spontaneous, I
knew this is something I'm going to be able to play because of the training I've had.
Yeah.
So that was a really nice feeling, but it was the jazz spirit that I had always been

(23:23):
looking for and felt like, oh, I wish I could play traditional jazz, but I just hadn't had
the opportunity to really study it and, and was so focused on my classical repertoire
at the time.
Yeah, it's, it's been a very interesting journey.
And I spent two years at a popular school in London, the Brit school, where, yeah, where

(23:51):
some artists such as Adele, Amy Winehouse, some quite big names have come from there.
And it was at that point where I started to realize, okay, I've had a lot of classical
training at my educational places before, and then I arrived at the Brit school and
it's totally the opposite.
It's, it's, it's almost like there's no classical.

(24:14):
I've done all of this classical training and now I'm thrown in the other, other end where
I have to do transcriptions, I'm learning about music from all over the world.
I'm learning how to song write.
It's totally different, but I didn't feel like I fitted into either category.
It was very strange.
It was a very strange experience.

(24:34):
And then even after that, you know, my education, I decided to go to university and, and focus
on classical guitar.
So I was, that was my, that was my main study, my principal study.
And I was doing, so I did that for three, four years.
And then again, I felt, is this what I should be doing?

(24:55):
Do I fit in here?
It's something doesn't feel totally at home, you know?
I was kind of just doing what I felt was expected, I think.
And I think it's quite a, an honest journey of a lot of musicians is they just kind of
keep going with the path that they're shown and go, okay, this is your instrument, do

(25:21):
the grades.
If you like it, just keep going, keep going.
And it was, it's actually really been since, since discovering Kapustin or maybe a year
before where I started to feel like I need to start playing what's right for me, what
feels right for me.
So I would only choose repertoire really if it spoke to me, you know?

(25:45):
And I think, I think it's that distinction between kind of doing what's expected and
then actually playing really what connects to you and just going with that.
And as soon as I started almost like rebelling in some way and not playing the repertoire
that everyone was expecting me to play, my performing was improving because I felt this

(26:09):
is really what I should be doing.
And especially with Kapustin because it speaks to me and it speaks to my education as well.
It, it, it's made me feel very at home and I have a very strong sentiment to, to playing
his music.
It's quite, it's quite strange, but it's, I can't really describe it in any other way,

(26:32):
to be honest.
Yeah, but in a way I can really feel you.
I can really relate to you and classical music.
Well, let's just focus on classical music.
It's just like this pyramid.
You're supposed to reach this top of this, right?
Yeah.
Tip, right?

(26:53):
Yeah.
But yeah.
There's this sort of expectation.
There's this huge expectation.
And like going back to what I said about how protected the repertoire is, there's almost
no room for your own imprint in it.
You know, if you do do something that's totally personal, you have to be prepared that people

(27:17):
are going to, are going to come up, come against it.
You know, then they might not, they might not enjoy it.
But I think that actually if you find repertoire, so it doesn't even have to be contemporary.
It can be traditional repertoire, but it's, it's again, connecting to just playing it
completely authentically and trusting that, you know, it's about, it's about anyone can

(27:42):
really play the notes.
You know, we can all, you know, if you spend enough time, we can all learn to play the
right notes at the right time.
But it's really about the why and how you can, how you can demonstrate that.
And I'm hoping with Kapustin that I'm able to, you know, show my journey through the
album because I'm not playing his music purely because I like it.

(28:04):
You know, it's for a very different reason.
And I think the album has come exactly at the right time in my life.
And it's, it's an album about a journey.
And it's not a finish, you know, it's not a perfect product.
It's not, this is the pinnacle of, of my career.
This is just a point in my journey and, and how I have found total almost expressive freedom

(28:30):
in his playing.
So does that make sense?
Yeah,
It does make sense.
It does make sense.
Wow.
So the, well, we can talk more about the album later, but album comes in sometime in the
fall 2025?
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.

(28:50):
We're hoping, we're hoping.
So I've recorded the first half.
I've still got a lot more to do.
But it's, it's all set to be recorded in the spring, which is really good.
And then there's, you know, things that have to happen before it's released.
But hopefully, hopefully in the next few months, I should be thinking about proper release dates

(29:11):
and there'll be a launch party and it's all very exciting.
But yeah, this year, this year definitely should be.
So very exciting.
That is very exciting.
Now I've also, because I've known Kapustin for a while.
Like, yeah, because I think he's bigger in the United States.

(29:31):
Obviously his music was so influenced by American jazz music.
So obviously if you're living in America, United States, you hear quite a bit.
And then Yuzha Wang, she performed the, I think third, two to number three.
Yeah.
And that's famous.
I've been to her concerts twice and at Lincoln Center and then she always plays that as one

(29:53):
of the encore pieces.
Yeah.
And I think that's great because, because she's obviously this huge pioneering figure
and for even just that little glimmer, for that, for that profile, for someone of that
profile to be playing his music is fantastic.
And I think that has started more and more people going, what is this?

(30:20):
And I think it's fascinating that it's popular or maybe even more popular in America than
it is at the moment in the UK because Kapustin never went to America.
Yes.
So, so.
Wow.
And it's amazing how he's an absolute genius because he picked, the whole influence has

(30:41):
come from the radio, really, and TV.
That was everything.
There were visiting American pianists that would go to Russia and play because he spent
a lot of his time in Russia.
Although he always said he was a Ukrainian.
So let's respect that and not say that he's Russian.

(31:01):
But he, yeah, it's really special that he was able to pick up so much just from those
mediums and I bet he would have loved to have gone to America and actually seen it and absorbed
it in the flesh.
But the pure genius that he is.

(31:22):
You know, because I've tried several etudes.
I tried the first one and I think I tried the number four, etude number four, Remembrance.
Oh, so beautiful.
And then number five, Railery.
Oh, that is just insane.

(31:49):
It has the blend of what Rachmaninoff to Bill Evans to Art Tatum.
It's really incredible.
So apparently Kapustin's favorite pianist was Oscar Peterson.
And actually you can hear that in the preludes.
Mostly I feel personally, I think that that's the response I've gotten mostly from audiences

(32:13):
as well, because every time I've performed his music and actually almost for the last
six months, all of my concerts have been all Kapustin.
So if you come to watch me, be prepared to listen to just Kapustin.
But people love it.
And they just say, they almost are teaching, the audiences are teaching me even more as

(32:36):
well because they'll come back and say, that sounded exactly like Herbie Hancock.
You know, and I hadn't thought, actually, yeah, that is a bit like her.
You know, so I love hearing other people's responses to his music because then it's educating
me as well.
And I think that's really special.

(32:57):
And then I recently posted a video, you know, sadly, so many artists now have to use social
media, you know, to promote their music.
And although it can be a difficult world to navigate, I think it's quite important that
we try to reach audiences through that way.
And I posted a video, just a short clip of me playing some of the Kapustin, and it's

(33:21):
had almost 35,000 views, which is fantastic.
But it's the comments that I'm getting from it are incredible because the audiences are
saying that sounds like it's from a Japanese video game.
Like where's this from?
Or, you know, that sounds like Prokofiev.
And it's so amazing how there are all these little snippets of the music that people are

(33:44):
picking up such different ideas from, but everyone is just loving it.
I think that's the main thing is that there are more and more people now discovering his
music that instantly are like, what is this?
Almost like the way that I felt when I first heard his music.
Yeah.
Well, I felt the same way when I first heard it and it was so shocking.

(34:06):
And then, yeah, it's jazzy, but it's not quite jazz jazz because you hear all these classical
elements as a classical musician, you instantly know that's classical.
There's no way that's improvisation, but it's like, so, yes, it's so interesting.
Yeah.
So I want to know what makes his music so unique.

(34:27):
We just talked about it, but and then unique and compelling for both classical and jazz
pianists.
Yes.
So if I come from more of a jazz perspective, because what I have found very interesting
is most of the people that have connected with me online have actually been jazz musicians

(34:48):
and they are the ones that are like, what is this?
Interesting.
Are you improvising?
Have you written that?
I'm like, no, no, no, no, no.
But isn't that fascinating that actually more jazz musicians are picking up on the playing
than classical?
So it definitely speaks to them immediately, but there's hardly anyone really.

(35:09):
I mean, it's becoming more popular, but most of the jazz musicians that I have encountered
and worked with even had never heard of Kirsten either, but they're kind of like, they perk
up, you know, they go, well, who is this?
Like, I think I might need to actually find out who this person is because it really resonates

(35:33):
with their language.
And I think that's why they are now picking up more about it because of the use of the
rhythm, because of the use of the harmony.
And I'm currently doing a master's, a conservatoire for Trinity Laban in London, and I'm doing
both classical and jazz.

(35:55):
Really?
Yeah.
And amazingly-
In piano?
Yes, very in piano.
Oh my God.
Yeah, so, but what I'm loving is that I'm taking the jazz professors, the Kabustin,
they'd never heard of him, but they go, oh my God, like, what is this?
This is incredible.
And they're very honest about the fact that they say, I don't know if I'd ever play this.

(36:19):
They say, I don't know if I'd ever be able to play this.
And I don't know if necessarily I'd feel comfortable playing it.
But they actually say to them, this is jazz, which is really interesting.
So I've found myself in lots of interesting conversations about is Kabustin jazz or classical?

(36:43):
And yes, it's very, it's kind of really straight away, it is classic.
You know, okay.
If we respect the tradition of playing written music, and also a lot of the interpretation,
a lot of the composition has classical elements to it.
But when I play it to a jazz musician, they say it's jazz.

(37:05):
And then I open up the question to them, but hang on, what about improvisation?
Isn't improvisation jazz?
And there is so much jazz now that isn't improvised.
Isn't?
No, there's a lot.
So if jazz musicians, I think it takes a certain jazz musician to maybe talk about that, be

(37:26):
happy to talk about that.
And improvisation is a huge tradition in the jazz world.
That is jazz.
To me, that is jazz.
But I find it interesting that some jazz musicians are saying to me, I think Kabustin is jazz.
And I think, oh, but this opens a whole other debate of what is what then?
You know, why is jazz only improvisation?

(37:50):
And why is classical only written?
Because you also have classical improvisation.
Yes, because Bach, Bach's time of improv was a normal thing.
Absolutely.
So it opens up this whole other, you know, line of debate, really.
And I'm not in any position to kind of put anything in any box.

(38:13):
And I think that's what I am about, is that actually, I'm not going to be for or against
either viewpoint.
But I just find it fascinating how other people are responding to it and saying, no, I think
it's jazz.
And then you might take it to another musician and they say, no, I think it's classical.
And it's like, okay, well, what is it?

(38:34):
You know, and Kabustin himself was very adamant that he was a classical pianist and that this
is classical music.
But if he were alive today, I would love to say to him, but you must be improvising to
get to your composition.

(38:56):
Like you must have been skilled in that art because your compositions are so dynamic.
And the research I've done is that he obviously, it started off with an idea and then he composed
on top of it.
And that was why he said it made it so, you know, so perfect.

(39:20):
It's because the improvisation in the early stage was refined.
And so he says it can't be considered jazz because it's not improvisation, it is written.
And I think that's really important to honor that.
And I would never, I'd almost never advertise the music as jazz.
But you can't take away that there is harmony and rhythm here that is of the jazz language.

(39:47):
So it's a really unusual place.
And classical, when classical musicians approach it, they're coming, you know, if they haven't
had that kind of exposure to jazz before, they're playing in a very kind of formal way
of this is just an etude and I'm playing it just as an etude.

(40:12):
Whereas I think if you have maybe a stronger understanding of the jazz sound, you can maybe
pick up nuances that Kapustin would have maybe had appreciated in the performances.
Does that make sense?
So I think what's important, at least for my own approach, is that my understanding

(40:36):
of jazz is just constantly being developed and enriched in a very practical sense as
well so that it's constantly influencing my interpretations of the written score.
So you've got to have both really, I think in this.
I'm hearing this in and out of either side, right?

(40:58):
Yes, yeah.
That's it.
It's very, it can be a very debatable subject.
Very.
And it kind of leans back to the protectiveness of people's repertoire and the protectiveness
of genre.
And I'm just finding that as I'm developing as a musician, I really want to cross those

(41:22):
or I want to challenge those ideas.
And yeah, and very, and what's really great is that I'm, because of my studying now, I've
been kind of given this extra space to just have fun and explore, experiment with no kind
of expectation.
You know, it's like a playground.

(41:47):
So it's great.
So I'm just at the start of a Kapustin project where I'm creating lead sheets for jazz musicians
of Kapustin's etudes and I'm going to create a classical and jazz musician collaborative
performance.
So the idea is that the jazz musicians will be able to improvise with the classical musicians

(42:12):
playing Kapustin's music and it's going to be expanded.
And I think that that is something that needs to happen.
And I think Kapustin has kind of given this opportunity to explore this.
So this is what I would like to do and this is what I'd like to explore.
So that's a whole other thing.

(42:33):
I have so many questions.
Wait, wait, wait.
So based on Kapustin's current, let's say some etude number one, something like that.
Yeah.
Then you are making a lead sheet out of it.

(42:53):
Right.
And then the lead sheet is usually there's a melody, single melody line and you'll see
the chord names on top.
And then jazz has its own chord thing.
Like you see the letter, we kept the letter with like a little bit of a different codes
to follow, like a C minus C, M, A, J. I'm explaining to my listeners.

(43:20):
So that's exactly what you're doing.
And they usually jazz musicians, when they do like a big ensemble or something, they
have this lead sheet in front of them.
Then they're improvising according to the lead sheet.
So you're not supposed to go play the different chord.
Yes.
You have to follow.

(43:41):
Yes.
You have to respond to what the harmony is saying.
And once you know what the harmony is, it then opens up doors to the scales that you
can play within that harmony.
So then that helps you improvise on top of the harmony that's been written out.
So my project is really to analyze all of the harmony across the whole etude.

(44:05):
That's going to take, that's a lot of work, which is why I'm really trying to learn jazz
as much as I can and understand harmony in that way so that I can analyze that.
But what I want to be able to do is to be able to say, okay, classical musician, here's
the score, learn the score, do it as you normally would.

(44:28):
But here's the lead sheet for the jazz musicians.
And although the classical musicians, there might be a slight, there might be more space
given.
I might put sections in where it will give room to the jazz musicians to improvise.
So there will be slight arrangements.
The whole point is that on stage or in a performance setting, we will be able to play together.

(44:53):
And there won't be this, there won't be this, oh, well, you're only jazz, so you can't
play this and you're classical, so you're not allowed to play.
There's got to be a joining here.
And we aren't all, you only have to stay on that side and you have to stay on that side.
And I think Kapustin is that perfect platform to do that.

(45:13):
He's almost given you the template for that.
He said, here's the harmony in a classical structure, but why can't we improvise on top
of that?
You just, well, unlocked the question, the answer to the question, the ultimate question.
So basically jazz musicians, what makes the jazz is the lead sheet based on the sheet.

(45:39):
The freedom, yeah, the freedom of being able to say, okay, I do have a structure here.
You know, I have to follow the harmony, but really I'm free.
And I think with Kapustin's music, although it is structured and it is, you have to learn
the notes, like we were the classical musician.
You've got to play it with freedom and you've got to have that jazz feel of the spontaneity

(46:04):
of improvisation and I think that's really important in studying.
But how do you do that as a classical musician?
If I may ask, yes.
I think it comes down to trust.
And actually, yeah, and actually almost saying, this is the way I want to play this phrase
and I want it to be expressed in this way.

(46:27):
I want to voice it this way, or I'm going to accentuate it in a different way, which
in the jazz world, you know, who says you can accent whatever you want?
You know, there isn't really like a set thing.
You can do your own thing, right?
And I think that's what you have to trust with Kapustin's music in that although you're

(46:51):
playing the notes and it's written and you do want to see, okay, if Kapustin has put
an accent on one of the notes, we should respect that because he's taken time to write that
down.
But Kapustin, in some of his scores, when he's actually, when we've been lucky enough
that he's written a description about how he wants to play the piece, which you do find

(47:14):
in some of his scores, he says from his own words, play this as if it is being improvised.
That's what he says.
Yes.
He says it needs to be played, not like a Takata style cadenza.
You know, it doesn't, we don't want it to be even.

(47:34):
It actually needs to be, you know, alive.
And it's amazing to have actually read that.
And it's almost given credit to, he wants you to play it like jazz and not so much in
a classical way.
And I think that that's really fascinating to explore.

(47:56):
But going back to kind of authenticity, if you want to play it in a classical way, play
it in a classical way, you know, there's kind of no right or wrong.
And it's, I think every pianist should try and play his music because I think you learn
a lot about how you want to interpret things.

(48:18):
And it will give you, it will give you that platform to do that.
I think so.
And, you know, what makes his music so, so fascinating and attractive is that, you know,
I'm not a jazz musician and I tried, but jazz is a different language you speak, right?
The way they, so going back to Leedsheet versus the written work, so the way jazz musicians

(48:43):
think about music and the way we think about, I think about classical music is different.
So that's one thing.
So when I tried Capustin's some of the etudes, I was like, wow, I feel like I was a jazz
musician because I've always wanted to be like that, you know?
Maybe next life, in the next life.
I think that's why it's so special because it does connect, it does connect a side of

(49:11):
you that you might have always wanted or something that you've always loved, you know, an art
form that you've always loved that you've just never had access to or never had, you
know, it just hadn't happened.
And I think that written out jazz, so not even just Capustin, but any jazz that has
been notated is really, is really special for people.

(49:35):
And I think that it shouldn't automatically not be considered jazz because it's not spontaneous.
You know, I think that yes, jazz is a language and it has its total own tradition, but there
needs to be an access for people in a different way, in a different way.

(49:58):
And I think it's very interesting just because I'm coming at it from a very different place.
And I've had a very unusual upbringing musically.
But that, yeah, that is your, because of that, because of your versatility that contributes
to playing his works.

(50:19):
And also you will be the expert in his music, right?
Because you can understand both sides.
Yes.
And I think, you know, I'm just trusting my own vulnerability about it, you know, and
thinking, well, there'll be other musicians that will play Capustin in the future.

(50:43):
And there are other musicians that play his music now that might disagree with the way
that I'm playing, but that's fine because I'm trusting that I'm doing it in a way that
feels right for me.
And based on my understanding of the two different genres, that's how I'm playing it.

(51:03):
And I think that's really how it, that's all you can do as an artist is just trust that
I'm doing it this way, you know, and I'm connected to it this way.
And yeah, lean into that, I think.
And it can be said for all genres, you know, all different types of music.
It's really about if you trust, if you trust the way that you want to play it, and you

(51:28):
are able to communicate that, then it works.
You know, or I'm finding it's working.
Before continuing this inspiring conversation with our guest, let's take a moment to hear
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(51:51):
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(52:33):
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(52:58):
But you know what?
You're beaming.
Your energy is just coming through this screen right now.
Because you found your way.
Because I love talking to people who are sort of like you, like in a gray area.
It's not black and white.
I don't belong in this.

(53:18):
I don't belong in that, but you are on your own thing.
But then I understand.
So when someone like you then finding, because of that, the challenge would be really finding
your own voice or own expression.

(53:39):
I mean, whether that happens with most artists at some point, I don't know.
I don't think people talk about that really.
But I mean, before Kapustin, I was playing a lot of Rachmaninoff.
And I really loved playing his repertoire.
And I still play kind of in my spare time.

(54:02):
I still play his repertoire.
And that's another music that speaks to me as well.
And I used to have people say, you play it so honestly.
And I always wondered what they meant by that.
And it wasn't necessarily about you're playing it honestly as you're learning, you're playing
the notes honestly.

(54:22):
You're actually playing it because it's, you're playing it honestly because you're playing
it exactly how you feel you need to play.
It's the honesty from yourself, which I think is what they were referring to.
So I think all artists or any aspiring musician can feel hope in that and think, you know,

(54:45):
if it's coming from an honest place and I'm really connected to the music, it totally
transforms the playing.
And to trust that it's okay to be your own voice and that you don't have to fit into
any particular category.
And actually, as soon as you start becoming yourself, that's when people resonate with

(55:10):
you more or you connect even more.
And it's a very amazing experience when you start doing that because just even in performances,
the kind of the response I get when I'm just totally playing myself and not sort of thinking,
I must make sure I do this or, you know, that teacher's told me to do this.

(55:31):
I've got to do this.
You know, as soon as you just start trusting, I know what I want to do and I know I can
do it, the whole game changes.
So, and I think that's what's happened.
And I think that's how the album has come around because I was so, I was so in love
with Kaboostin and I just, I think at the time I'd only learned a few of the etudes

(55:51):
and the record label heard me play and they just said, we love this.
We want to sign you and just do a whole album of it.
And I was like, but I was just playing.
I wasn't even like, I was doing a recording, but it wasn't like a commercial recording

(56:12):
and they were involved in the project and I wasn't feeling particularly well in the
day and I was just like, oh, you know what?
It's fine.
I'm just going to play my best and, you know, just kind of be myself.
I can't do anything other than be myself really.
And they just absolutely loved it.
And I thought, oh my God, like I wasn't competing, you know, there wasn't any kind of formality.

(56:37):
I was just playing how I would normally play and, or I was just playing me.
Does that make sense?
Yes.
You know, it must have been a really hard work to get there, I'm sure, but at the same
time, how fortunate that being able to find, you know, your ways and it took, it must took

(57:00):
a lot of courage too sometimes.
Yeah.
And I'm still, I'm still working through that, you know, and I think there might be
a point, I think where I think as artists, you'll always have to do that because there'll
always be someone that might have something negative to say, which is very normal.
We all have to understand that.
And you know, there'll always be people that will have expectations of what you should

(57:24):
be doing or how you should be playing or what repertoire you should be playing.
And I think you've just got to lean into the feeling of, of the music that you play.
And if it feels right, if it lights you up, if it gets you out of bed, then that's what
you should be playing, you know, and, and it's okay to do that.

(57:47):
Like it's okay to follow that and trust that.
You know, do you know what I mean?
Yeah, yes.
Yeah.
Wow.
But that's amazing.
So I can't really wait for the album to come because, you know, thank you.
Yeah, that that's like the really one of you said it's not a pinnacle.

(58:08):
It's just a, you know, one of the process.
But I, yeah, but at the same time, it's like the product where you produce your producing
or something with all the hard work you've.
So I want to know what exactly you will be playing in the album for the album.
So you said, are you doing all eight concert?

(58:29):
Yes.
I'm doing all the etudes and I've recorded them now, so they're done.
Yeah.
So it took about, it's interesting actually, the recording process.
There's kind of mixed, mixed ideas about how it should be done, you know.
So some people say you should get it done in a day.

(58:50):
Try and do it in a day.
Others are saying, no, no, no, it takes a week.
You know, you've got to have a whole week.
So I thought I'll go for the middle.
I'll go for three days.
So I gave myself three days to record all of them and we got it all done and that was
amazing.
And yeah, kind of looking forward to hearing them all, you know, together and once they're

(59:10):
mastered and everything and just hearing the final product would be fantastic.
So I'm also recording seven preludes.
But yeah, from ranging kind of from number five up to 23.
So there's a mixture of a mixture of them there and I've chosen specific ones kind of

(59:34):
back to my point of which ones make me feel.
How do they make me feel when I really play them and really listen to them and which ones
am I most passionate about?
But I also felt it was important to maybe include some that if you hadn't heard Kapustin's
music before, these are good starting points.
These are really this is Kapustin, you know, kind of like the one for my own taste anyway,

(01:00:00):
because some of his music can also become quite contemporary.
There's a lot that's almost slightly atonal in style, like the tonal sense quite hard
to pinpoint.
And I thought I don't want to choose anything that's going to be too inaccessible for both
jazz and classical audiences.

(01:00:20):
So I've chosen some of I think my favorite ones.
And then I've also I'm also recording four standalone solo pieces.
I'm not really familiar with those.
Yeah, they're wonderful.
I think if you want to first start playing Kapustin, they're probably the best repertoire
to start with.
I mean, the etudes are great.
You know, if you if you have kind of if you're ready for the challenge and the kind of technical

(01:00:45):
aspect of it, great.
But if you want to learn more like songs or just nice pieces, they're really good to start.
So there's one called Big Band Sounds, which actually was written, Kapustin originally
wrote it for Big Band and Piano.
And I'm hoping to do performances of that soon.

(01:01:05):
So that yeah, that would be like literally the big band.
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So that would be fantastic.
But he then rewrote it for solo piano.
So that would be fantastic.
And then there's also a few slower, more reflective pieces, one called Contemplation, another
called Ballad, which actually doesn't have as far as I'm aware, doesn't have a commercial

(01:01:29):
recording for you.
So that's really exciting.
So that'll sort of be a premiere of that, which is really great.
I'm also doing a paraphrase on a famous Brazilian piece called Acrela do Brasil.
So totally different from his other repertoire.

(01:01:49):
It's so, so Brazilian.
It's a samba piece.
And I again wanted the audience to hear so much versatility and show everything that
he does, big band, Preludes, Etudes, Brazil, you know, samba, contemplate, you know, really
contemplative music as well.
And I'm giving I've given myself a bit of a challenge of also learning one of his two

(01:02:12):
piano pieces and I'm recording both parts myself.
And that is a paraphrase on Dizzy Gillespie's Manteca.
So yeah, that's really that's a huge challenge, actually.
I think that's probably going to be the most challenging one and also one that I'm most
curious to see how the audience respond to it, especially the jazz audience, because

(01:02:37):
it is a very famous jazz piece by one of the biggest jazz artists that's ever lived.
And it's going to be really fascinating to see what they think of that.
And I'm studying really carefully the original recordings of the Manteca, lots of different
recordings from Dizzy with different bands and yeah, loads of different recordings from

(01:03:02):
that to make my own interpretation as as I would want it.
Yeah, but that's that's quite a big challenge.
So I think in total, there's going to be about 21 tracks.
Oh, my goodness.
Yes.
I think that's everything.
I'm trying to think if there's anything I've left off.

(01:03:22):
No, I think that's about yeah, I think it will be about 21.
So it's going to be a lot of work.
And it's crazy how it's all just coming together and it's happening.
I think what I'm learning as well as a recording artist is that once you've actually recorded,
you're still going to be playing this repertoire.
But I'm also playing the repertoire in such a different way since the recording.

(01:03:46):
And it's that evolution of your playing of my playing.
Yeah.
And I think I think that's what's really fascinating to learn about this journey is that I people
will come and see my performances.
And although they're still the same pieces, my evolution, my growth as a musician will
be in a different place from when I actually recorded.

(01:04:09):
And it's almost like they'll get a very different experience from coming to watch them live.
And I think that's exciting, though.
I think that's a really nice thing to embrace that you can, you know, there's the product,
there's the album, that's the tracks, but you'll get something totally different.
So come and see me.

(01:04:29):
You know, and I'm actually just about to do a first performance of arrangements of the
etudes with drums and bass.
So forming my own trio, which is yeah, based on one of the etudes.
Yeah, yeah.
So when I first started learning the music, I obviously came across a great pianist called

(01:04:52):
Frank Dupree, who's recorded a huge amount of Capustin.
Oh, yes.
I think I just heard his piano concerto number four.
Yes.
By Capustin.
Yeah, he's just released a new album.
And he one of his first Capustin albums was his trio arrangements of Capustin.

(01:05:13):
And they're fantastic.
And I think that's that's given, again, even more evidence of that this music can be played
in such a different way.
And it's almost like a Piazzolla.
Makes me think of Piazzolla.
Right.
Right.
Yes, very much.
Yeah, very much.
And I think it's it's a really exciting feature.

(01:05:34):
And although the album isn't going to have any, you know, trio arrangements, I'm looking
forward to putting that into my performances and giving the audience is a whole nother
taste of his music.
So it's amazing how art history can develop so quickly.
And you can constantly come up with new ideas.

(01:05:56):
And already, you know, if you come come and talk to me again in three months, I'll probably
have another idea.
It would have changed again.
It's just so exciting.
Really exciting.
I mean, I mean, even just learning, you know, Kapustin's music for the first time, I'm just
like playing.
And usually when it's like a classical repertoire, I can really hear it while looking at the

(01:06:19):
score.
This is it's supposed to be.
But Kapustin, I'm I need a little bit more time.
One thing is because I don't have the jazz background, but also I don't necessarily hear
it by just looking at the score.
Does that?
Yes.
Do you experience that?
I think at first I had to work on that as well.

(01:06:43):
And I think the difficulty with it is because of the way it's drawn rhythmically.
And because because as classical musicians, we are sort of used to reading rhythm in that
in that way.
And I've had to take his music to I've taken his music to so many different jazz musicians.
And they say to me, well, this is this is a funk rhythm.

(01:07:06):
This is how you need to play it.
And you need to play it with the metronome on the off beats and play it with a drummer.
You can't play it like a classical musician on the down beats.
It's got to be syncopated.
And I think for for musicians who aren't so accustomed to to to listening to jazz or playing

(01:07:29):
any jazz, it can be quite disorientating and they can't always settle into the groove and
understand how to read that kind of groove.
Personally, there's so many notes.
It's just there's just so many.
I feel like it's more of a rhythmical thing that people need to study more or kind of

(01:07:51):
explore more, become more comfortable with.
And then the notes kind of fall into place.
So if I if I were to suggest to some to anyone how to start any Kapustin repertoire, because
it can feel daunting, start by understanding what the rhythm is and almost write the rhythm

(01:08:11):
out or clap the rhythm or write down one and two and one to, you know, all tiny digits,
figure it out, understand what the time signature is.
OK, so if if there are 16 semi-crovers, but you're not going to want to hear all the semi-crovers,
you know, we want to we want to divide that up, then that's when you get the metronome

(01:08:36):
out.
You say, OK, it's got to be on beat two and beat four and then get used to playing that.
Because as classical musicians, we would never practice really with an offbeat metronome.
It takes a lot of time to be able to feel comfortable with that.
But as soon as you get it, it kind of it it sinks in and it really helps, really helps

(01:08:57):
with your rhythm.
So that's how I would that's kind of my advice of how to approach it.
And as soon as you start understanding jazz harmony as well.
So I do think you need to study a little bit about jazz harmony and you'll start noticing
that the shapes your hands make are the voicings of what would be appropriate for the jazz

(01:09:20):
chord.
So try to play any any form of maybe slightly easier jazz repertoire.
Like I love there's a composer who is UK based called Nikki Iles.
And she she's a fantastic jazz pianist and her music is super.
It kind of ranges from sort of around grade three right up to advanced.

(01:09:46):
So it's it's really great for anyone that's not as advanced with jazz and wants to just
start playing jazz repertoire that's written.
If you want to look for something before Kapustin, that's a really good entry point.
And then you can start sort of understand once you've kind of worked on the rhythm,
you can understand, OK, where is the melody?

(01:10:07):
Is there a melody here?
And how can I how can I find that?
But I think the amazing thing about Kapustin is that you can in some pieces you can just
decide yourself where the melody is.
That's what I felt.
And yeah, that's what I've really felt.
And I think there's so much room to just interpret it as as you would like.

(01:10:31):
And that's the joy of it.
And that's what gives me the freedom is that actually, I think there's a voice here or
I think there's a voice here.
You know, like, why don't why don't we bring out the thumb in the left hand like you would
sometimes in classical repertoire?
But why can't we do it here as well?
You know, there's there's nothing to stop me from doing that.
So you can make a lot of choices yourself.

(01:10:53):
And and I haven't had anyone I've had not very many professors say, no, no, no, don't
do it like that.
So it's yes, it's it's working well.

(01:11:28):
So tell me more of yourself.
And we'll get back to Kapustin again, you know.
But it's interesting, like because you were like for college, you were playing classical
guitar and I think you were also playing double bass.
You know, yes, yes.
So that's a jazz jazz double bass or both.

(01:11:51):
Yeah.
So I was in jazz bands growing up and I was also.
I was in classical.
Yes, yes.
So although although I've had it's funny because I still don't think I've had super, super
jazz training, not as a pianist, definitely more as a bassist, for sure.

(01:12:13):
And also, I'm starting I think even just this week, I was reflecting a lot on my background
and I'm trying to become more aware of my identity, you know, of just the type of musician
I am.
And I was thinking to myself, I actually did a lot of transcription.
And that's a really big thing in the jazz training.

(01:12:35):
So so yes.
So so when I was when I was gosh, I went to a music specialist Catholic girls school when
I was 11 and the music was amazing.
And I did.
I was in every ensemble going.
I was in all the choirs.
I was in every violin orchestra, the principal orchestras.

(01:12:57):
I was in the jazz band, the guitar ensemble, everything.
I just I just couldn't not do every every ensemble they had.
And double bass came along because I'd already reached a good level on the guitar and I was
playing bass guitar.
You know, the double bass is a really endangered species.
There aren't that many double bassists.

(01:13:20):
I mean, obviously now in the industry, you meet more and more, but growing up, it's quite
rare to play the double bass.
And the school I was at the time were very encouraging of it.
And they gave me a double bass and gave me lessons.
And I just kind of, you know, picked it up straight away because of everything that I
had done before.
And I'd love playing that.

(01:13:40):
And then, yeah, when I was 16, 15, 16, my piano teacher at the time passed away.
So he yeah, so I'd reached a good level.
I think I was working on a diploma or whatever.
And then he just he passed away quite suddenly.
And I found myself being really encouraged with the guitar and the double bass and all

(01:14:04):
my solo opportunities at school were all on the guitar.
And I thought, OK, well, I think I've had enough of the classical world that I want
to I want to do something else.
You know, and the Brit school was in my town.
And I thought, OK, I'm going to go there.
But it was such a transition from where I had just been.
And it was completely the other way.

(01:14:27):
And I'd gone from this really quite strict classic, well, not mostly classical, but very
traditional educational setting to total opposite.
Everyone's smoking, you know, wearing their own clothes.
Like really?
Well, OK.
And I felt, oh, my God, I don't know if I should be here.

(01:14:50):
I don't know if I should be here.
You know, and I've obviously gained a place.
It's really hard to get in.
Like thousands of kids apply.
And I was I was really pleased to get to go.
But then when I was there, I was like, I don't know if I fit here because I've come from
such a different place.
And then I decided when I was 18, I thought, OK, I'm going to go and study classical guitar

(01:15:14):
at university, which I did, and I was still playing bass a lot.
So piano had kind of just gone to the side slightly for a bit.
I was still playing, but I wasn't having many lessons.
And then when I finished my undergrad in guitar and double bass, because of my mom's connections
with the piano, I kind of found myself with a full time job teaching piano.

(01:15:38):
You know, I've had so cheap.
There was so much work available for me as a young musician who just finished and it
was great security.
And then I realized actually I've kind of neglected the piano a little bit.
And yes, when I was about 21, I was like, OK, I'm going to go back to my own studying
of it and really focus.

(01:15:59):
And then my whole world just changed.
Really, like I kind of rekindled this love that I'd always had.
But perhaps because the passing of a teacher, you kind of feel a bit left.
You know, it's quite an unusual experience when you've just hit that point and you're
playing really advanced repertoire and then the teacher that you've trusted just goes.

(01:16:25):
And I was also navigating a different school and my identity was changing.
You know, like I don't know who I am, you know, a teenager is really difficult.
And then when I was 21, I kind of threw myself back into my own training of piano and now
we're here.

(01:16:45):
So it's just it's just been a very unusual journey to kind of come here.
What a journey.
But thank you for sharing your story because yeah, but you know, I was thinking about double
bass.
I wish I had some sort of a experience with that because what I struggle tried to play

(01:17:10):
jazzy stuff or when I was even taking a few lessons from this jazz pianist in New York,
Jim Riddle, whom I also interviewed in first season season one.
And he's an incredible jazz pianist.
And then what I struggled was the baseline.
So he would say, boom, boom, boom, boom, you know, then he do this.

(01:17:32):
I'm like, I hear it, but I can't do it.
When I saw somebody would play this humongous chorus like Rachmaninoff and I play this,
I can do it.
I can hear it.
But that bass line, I cannot improvise.
I cannot do it.
Yes, I think that I think that's interesting, actually, because obviously with Kapustin's

(01:17:54):
music, there is that bass.
Although there's chords and there's a lot of left hand voicing, so you're not always
just playing a singular note.
But because I played so much bass in different styles as well, so it wasn't just finger style,
it was also with the bow, I really resonated with the lower register.

(01:18:16):
And I was also an alto.
So I was singing always the lower register.
And it's made me very comfortable playing all the left hand really in Kapustin.
It just kind of I voice it as if it is bass, you know, so definitely having had all those
years of bass playing helps has helped significantly.

(01:18:39):
I think the only thing I really wish that I had had were drum lessons.
And although I think my rhythmical sense probably from being a bassist and playing with drummers
when I was at the BRIT, we are constantly playing with drummers.
So I think I have do have that.
But I would have loved to have done that as well.

(01:19:00):
It's not too late, though, you know, maybe I could take some.
Yeah, no delay.
Next time I maybe you come back here and say, hey, I just picked up on drums.
I did have this crazy idea of kind of like recording my own trio ensembles of Kapustin
and just teaching myself the drums.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

(01:19:21):
But you know, idea of making this piano solo into this jazz band stuff, it just blows my
mind.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Did somebody did somebody suggest you to do it or is it coming from the inspiration of
his music?
Oh, definitely his music.
So so I think what was really funny was that as soon as I started really studying Kapustin,

(01:19:45):
I knew immediately I wanted to play this music with a live drummer immediately.
So I did contact a drummer like within a week.
I was like, could you you know, do you want to collaborate?
Can we play this together?
And it sounds incredible.
And then when I was doing even more research, I then discovered Frank's album.
And I was like, oh, OK, so this is happening.

(01:20:07):
This is actually happening.
And it kind of gave me the courage to think I can do that as well.
Like, you know, if he's if Frank has done this and kind of set this set this scene of
you can do these interpretations, go for it.
Obviously, they'll be Frank's and these will be mine.
So we won't do things, you know, in the same way.

(01:20:30):
We have a very artistic difference.
And I think that's what's really nice is that you can still do arrangements and they can
be totally different.
But he was kind of that that confidence and now we've become good friends and, you know,
we talk about Kapustin a lot.
And I've said, oh, can you give me a suggestion?
You know, how could I maybe work on his interpretation?

(01:20:51):
You know, what could we do?
And spoke to his drummer and his bassist as well and kind of getting more and more advice
and and playing his I'm now playing Kapustin music with different drummers as well to get
different ideas.
You know, I've gone to a sound specialist to learn really about the rhythm of Brazil

(01:21:13):
and how to how to study that more.
And I think that's really important as an artist to just keep learning.
You know, it doesn't doesn't stop just when you when you're doing concerts, when you've
reached a point where actually doing concerts and doing now, but it doesn't mean that you
can't still learn and network with other musicians who you could still learn from.

(01:21:36):
It's just so much more.
And I can't wait to see by the end of the masters what more I've learned about different
approaches and different interpretations and all the different musicians that will have
different ideas.
So it's super exciting.
And so what made you decide to go back to school?
Yes.
Well, OK.

(01:21:57):
So so speaking very, very honestly and quite vulnerable, vulnerable.
I found myself over the last year going through a difficult separation from marriage.
And I'm sorry.
Yes.
Oh, no, it's fine.
It's fine.

(01:22:18):
And I'm in a place where I'm happy to share it.
And I hope that it can help people who are listening as well, you know, just kind of
a deepened connection, really.
And so so I kind of committed myself to just working as a professional musician and was
performing teaching, doing lots of accompanying, obviously started playing a bit of the caputin

(01:22:41):
as well.
And then, yeah, I found myself in this obviously quite difficult situation where now, you know,
nearly divorced and having to really rebuild my life a lot.
And it was during that process where I thought, I think I want a few years to just focus on
me and to and to really do what I love.

(01:23:05):
And at the same time, so in the midst of the very difficult separation, I had received
the record offer, the contract, and then it prompted me, OK, well, if I've got this opportunity,
I'd really like to be in a place where that's going to be mentored and supported.

(01:23:25):
And I hadn't had those years just for the piano in an institution.
It had been the guitar, you know, and I thought, I think I owe it to myself to really do what
I would what I want to do at this stage, you know, because my whole life had just completely
changed from what I was expecting to happen.

(01:23:46):
So that's really, you know, an honest answer.
You know, that's that's kind of how it's how it's come around.
And I never thought I would do a master's.
I kind of did the undergrad and thought, I'm just going to work.
You know, I feel like I'm going to learn a lot from working.
And I was very lucky that I've been really busy and really successful as a professional.

(01:24:12):
But I thought, you know, when when something like that happens in your life and it all
just completely changes, you start thinking, what is it that I really, really want to do
or what could I do now that I know is what I need to do for myself?
I almost have I've almost just said I need to put myself first.

(01:24:35):
I need to spend time reconnecting with my music, you know, reconnecting with myself,
you know, finding out who I am because I was in it was a very, very long relationship.
So it's interesting how music, especially Kapustin, has really been there during this

(01:24:58):
time as well.
And the album is the album is a result of this period of my life.
You know, when when when things happen and your life changes, sometimes there's only
one thing that stays.
And whatever that one thing is, that's the thing that you need to lean on.
And it was my music.

(01:25:20):
You know, it was the only thing that was giving me comfort.
It was it was helping me process.
And it's interesting that Kapustin was that music, you know, was it's almost like the
the structure of his music helped made sense during a time that was complicated.

(01:25:42):
You know, and the extreme focus that required that you need to have when you play his music
really helped kind of channel things for me.
But I think what's interesting is that I play his music very emotionally.
And it's not something that maybe you would immediately associate with Kapustin if you'd

(01:26:06):
only ever heard it for the first time.
It's not like Rachmaninoff, you know, it's not top on the sleeve music.
Well, you wouldn't think it is.
But for me, it really is.
For me, it's I'm very emotionally connected to it.
And it it's carried me through some really difficult times.
So sorry, it's quite heavy.

(01:26:29):
No, no, no.
This is a very important thing.
Yeah.
And I think it's I think it's I think it's just important to be honest and and to, you
know, accept that music is this foundation for a lot of people, you know.

(01:26:50):
And I know it's not just me.
Like I know that since kind of sharing this story with people, there's been so many people
that have reached out to me and said, I feel like I've gone through exactly the same thing.
You know, like music has been so important to me during difficult times and and it can
be really life changing.

(01:27:11):
So yeah, so the Masters was kind of a result, I feel.
You know, the the album, it's all it all kind of came so organically during such difficult
time.
So yeah, I think I think I just have to.
That's why I thought I'm just going to follow this and just see see what happens, like not

(01:27:32):
be tethered to an outcome, you know, not kind of have any huge expectation of of, oh, I
hope it does well.
It's almost like, well, I'm playing it because I needed to play it, you know, because it's
kept me going.
And that and that's it.
And I've been able to connect with myself through the music.

(01:27:55):
So to anyone that's listening, I think I think I just, you know, would would love to kind
of offer that sense of trusting that things like music or art or anything where you feel
like you can really express something in words that can't be said.

(01:28:18):
Do it, you know, just trust that that will help you, because that's how it's been for
me.
So I hope that makes sense.
Oh, totally.
Thank you so much for sharing this vulnerability, showing your vulnerability.
But that is the strength.
And yeah, beautiful.

(01:28:38):
Thank you.
So like, no wonder the music of Cuphead's team really spoke to you in some on some levels,
right?
It's not just one thing.
So yeah, yeah, yeah.
I think I think when you become deeply connected with a particular music, you kind of have

(01:29:01):
to it's helpful to understand why.
And it's helpful to understand the journey of yourself and why you why you love this
music.
And as I've said, like it helps you show that to people that are listening and that they
can hopefully connect to themselves when listening.

(01:29:22):
And that's really what it is, you know, I think, I think when you hear a performer and
you're moved by them, it's because they're doing that.
It's because they're connect they're so connected with what they're playing and it's helping
you connect with your own experience when you're listening to them.
So I think that though that's that kind of special quality when you watch performance

(01:29:46):
that you hope to experience.
And I'm hoping to keep doing that keep learning about that.
You know, so inspired when I see musicians that do the same, that do that sort of have
that quality in their playing.
And it's just trusting that that works.
I've said the word trust so much.

(01:30:07):
I know, but you're doing it.
That's that's amazing.
So the I want to know the title of the upcoming album.
Yes, yes.
So it's called Between the Lines.
Between the Lines.
Yes.
Tell me.
Between the Lines.
Okay, where does this title come from?
It's, there were a few other titles and I kind of sat on a few things for a while and

(01:30:34):
I thought I've got to be able to to say in the cover that although this music is this
cross, it is this fusion.
So there's the betweenness there.
But also let's read between the lines of what this music is about.

(01:30:55):
And also read between the lines of why I'm playing this music, you know, and it's really
not just an album about here's the notes.
It's actually about what's in between the notes.
That's the story of my life that's been happening.
And I want to show you in I want to show you in that.

(01:31:17):
So I think it was it was almost like that phrase of read between the lines.
You know, can you can you pick up what else is going on here?
And can you emotionally see other layers?
I hope that would be the outcome anyway.
You know, I think I'm just I'm you know, that's that's kind of my vision or how I would like

(01:31:40):
it.
How about how I would like it to receive.
But, you know, again, I'm not kind of tethered to any huge expectation.
I'm just enjoying the process.
But I think the album title works well.
I think it feels comfortable for me.
And it's quite a personal choice.
You know, I think there was the choice of volume, you know, volume one, because then

(01:32:02):
it could be like I could do another one, you know, volume two.
You know, and I thought I could say something like that or jazz meets classical.
I thought, OK, that's a nice one.
But also almost quite too explicit.
And I think I think I like how between the lines opens up.
OK, what does she really mean?

(01:32:24):
I'm not going to share the actual cover yet.
The cover also has that unusual quality to it.
And it's it kind of leaves you wondering.
Who is this person and what what is her story here?
And it's not your traditional classical album cover.

(01:32:48):
So I'm hoping to share it.
I don't want to share it just yet, though, because I'm waiting for it to be signed off
and, you know, kind of with the release when the release is out, then everyone will see
it.
But that's been a really exciting part, actually, of thinking, oh, my God, you know, I'm going
to have my face on a cover.
How do I what story do I want to tell it?
What do I want to say?

(01:33:08):
Because your your first album is kind of like your entry card into the industry.
And it's it's really like your business card of like, here I am.
It's it's it's introducing you, introducing you.
So you do want to you do want to think about it and think about how what do you want people

(01:33:30):
to think or how do you want to challenge people?
And I definitely wanted to come away from just something more generic.
I think I wanted to I wanted to do something that felt right for me.
And the responses I've had so far, just showing kind of friends and colleagues, they have
been like, OK, that's different.

(01:33:52):
And I'm like, well, yeah, they're like, but it's it's good.
It's you.
It feels very you.
And I'm like, well, that's it.
You know, it's it's about me as an artist.
So yeah, it's so exciting.
I can't wait to show.
I can't wait.
I can't wait to see it.
So what kind of legacy, Kapustin's legacy do you want to carry in your performance and

(01:34:17):
also in the album?
Yes.
Oh, that's a really good question.
I think the if we go back right back to when Kapustin first discovered jazz, he was in
his late teens.
Jazz was pretty prohibited in I think at that point, I think he was in Russia when he first

(01:34:41):
listened to it because he was studying.
He was studying.
So he had already moved from the Ukraine and he was at the Moscow Conservatoire.
I think it was when he was studying at the Moscow Conservatoire that him and his friends
were kind of illegally listening to an American radio station.
And they first heard jazz through the station.

(01:35:05):
And it was almost that like rebellious nature of Kapustin that I love.
And through discovering him more, learning more about him, I realized that actually when
he was young, he was quite rebellious.
And he was like a cheeky boy, you know, and he and he'd often want to go against kind
of what was told of him.

(01:35:27):
Although he was a very good student, he was a virtuous pianist, there was that spirit
inside him.
And I think I would like for that sort of freedom and that slight rebellious nature
to still be carried through.
And that's what I would love to share in the album and kind of carry that spirit across.

(01:35:50):
So yes, he is this amazing virtuoso pianist, but there is this essence to him.
And that's why his music is so fantastic because he didn't do what everyone else was doing.
He was so authentic.
He was just doing exactly the music he wanted to write, and people loved it.

(01:36:14):
And I think it's keeping that spirit alive and not putting him in any category, I think
is really important.
I don't know how he would feel himself, you know, but it's what I would like to leave
of his legacy for sure.

(01:36:35):
Yeah.
Wow, thank you.
Before we wrap up, sadly, it's toward the end of our conversation, but let's take a
moment to promote your work officially and then you know, you can maybe mention about
your upcoming concerts and obviously about the album too.
So I'm sure our listeners will be really excited to learn more about you.
So where can they find you?

(01:36:56):
Maybe website.
So yes, the floor is yours.
So take it away, please.
Yeah, sure, sure.
So at the moment, I'm mostly performing in the UK.
Hopefully when the album is launched, there will be more international performances and
more international platforms.
But at the moment, you can connect with me really on social media.

(01:37:16):
I'm mostly Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, those kind of platforms.
TikTok too, okay.
Yes, TikTok.
Yeah, Kapustin is doing really well on TikTok.
It's amazing.
Yeah.
Yeah, the following I'm getting there is better than Instagram at the moment.
It's really impressive.
So definitely if your listeners are more interested in hearing Kapustin check, see what's on TikTok.

(01:37:39):
For sure, there's some great things there.
What is your handle?
It's just Ophelia Gordon, I think on TikTok.
Instagram Ophelia?
Yes, yeah.
And then I have my website, which is just OpheliaGordon.com.
And my email again, you can all find on my website and just reach out.

(01:38:00):
And if you want to know more about Kapustin or you want to know more about me as an artist
or yeah, you know, interested in collaborating or if you have questions or anything, you
know, I'm always open to meeting new musicians, new people and just seeing kind of seeing
what can happen.

(01:38:21):
And yeah, so that's it really.
Yeah.
So the album itself as well will be released on Spotify, Amazon, iTunes, all the kind of
major streaming platforms.
And then also will be you'll be able to buy it direct from the record labels website,
which is so the label I'm recording with is called Divine Arts Recording.

(01:38:46):
And it's a subsidiary of Naxos, which is a they're kind of the distributor.
So if you kind of follow that that lead, you'll be able to find Divine Arts.
But they do specialize in lots of contemporary repertoire.
So it's really it's really exciting to be kind of one of they have a few jazz albums,

(01:39:07):
but they've obviously never recorded Kapustin before.
So really looking forward to being the first Kapustin album within their catalog.
But yeah, I hope that gives people ways to find me.
Yeah, I'm sure.
And then I will list all the links in the show notes as well.
So yeah, now I didn't tell you, but before we go, we usually have this rapid fire questions

(01:39:33):
where I ask each guest silly questions and you have to answer them each question in a
short responses as possible.
And no question and no explanation is needed.
But before we go, do you have any last thing you want to say?
Well, thank you to you, Ukiime for having me.

(01:39:54):
It's been so lovely talking and I hope that I hope that everyone has understood what I've
said, because when you just talk, sometimes you think, I hope people are understanding
what I'm saying.
Loud and clear, we understood you.
And then yeah, good.
And yeah, and I'm just so excited for what's to come.

(01:40:16):
And yeah, hope I've connected with people that have been listening and, you know, and
yeah, thank you again so much for having me.
It's been so nice talking to you.
And you know, you've been so warm and sorry, I've spoken so much.
No, this is great.
That's why I created this platform.
I want you to speak.
And thank you so much for sharing all all your stories, but also your expertise.

(01:40:40):
I learned a lot.
It was a masterclass.
So brought me to you.
So let's get into this rapid fire, right?
Yeah.
All right.
So we'll start with that.
Yeah, we'll start with easy ones and then get to some more advanced ones.
So question number one, what is your comfort food?
Spaghetti bolognese.
Yes, good.

(01:41:01):
Yes.
How do you like your coffee in the morning?
Milky.
Yeah, it's great.
Cats or dogs?
Cats.
Do you have a cat?
No, actually, I don't at the moment.
I have a dog, but I can't wait to get a cat.
Oh, you poor dog.

(01:41:22):
All right.
Sunrise or sunset?
Oh, that's hot.
Sunrise.
Summer or winter?
Summer.
Yeah.
What skill have you always wanted to learn but haven't had a chance to?
Should I say the drums?

(01:41:44):
To me, it's the jazz piano.
So yes, I agree.
What is your word or words to live by?
Just be yourself.
I think that's the bad thing.
Yeah, if I'm being very clear, yeah, just be yourself.
What is the most important quality you look for in other people?

(01:42:07):
Honesty, always.
Yeah, honesty, authenticity, honesty, for sure.
Name three people who inspire you, living or dead.
Okay, so I love a British pianist called Joanna McGregor.
She's quite known for her Piazzolla and Bach interpretations.

(01:42:30):
She's really inspiring for me.
Oh, gosh, who else?
You know, David Bowie.
David Bowie as well, for his artistry.
He's the most authentic kind of case you could think of, so hugely inspired by him.
And Rachmaninoff, I would say.

(01:42:52):
Yeah, for that vulnerability, for sure.
And kind of the way he rose and wrote the second concerto after his depression.
What an inspiration.
His story of his life is just incredible.
So I think those three people, yeah, which actually is not what I was expecting to say,

(01:43:13):
but there you go.
Yeah, there you go.
But you know, it's done with what felt right.
Somebody just named David Bowie as one of the three people.
So yeah, he's the reason again.
All right.
Name one piece in your current playlist.

(01:43:35):
Oh my goodness.
Oh, that's so hard.
That's probably the hardest question, actually.
You know, I've been re-listening again to Rachmaninoff's cello sonata.
Oh, good one.
Yeah, I love, I love, I did start working on it and I hope to play that.
Yeah.

(01:43:56):
The last movement.
The piano part is then of course the cello, but gorgeous.
Yeah.
Yeah, so beautiful.
Yeah, so that's on my list.
I've got a big list, but that's one that stood out to me today.
Yeah, great.
Yeah.
So the last question, fill in the blank.
Music is blank.
Music is life.

(01:44:16):
Good one.
Classic.
Beautiful.
Yes, it is.
But it absolutely is.
Really is.
You can't have life about music.
That's right.
Music is my life.
Wonderful.
You know, it's not just what you do, it's actually who you are.
You know, lots of people's cases, and in my case, so there you go.
There you go.

(01:44:37):
Thank you.
So that concludes this episode of the piano part.
Thank you, Ophelia, for joining us today and sharing your incredible stories and insights
and expertise.
To our wonderful audience, you can learn more about Ophelia and her work by visiting her
website at OpheliaGordon.com and follow her on Facebook, Instagram, TikTok at OpheliaGordon.

(01:44:59):
And of course, thank you to our faithful fans and listeners for tuning in.
If you enjoyed today's episode, please give it a thumbs up and subscribe to the piano
part on YouTube.
And don't forget to share and then review this episode on your social media and tag
the piano part.
It's one of the best ways to help us grow.
And we would love to hear your feedback.

(01:45:20):
For the latest piano news and updates, be sure to follow the piano part on Substack,
Facebook, Instagram, TikTok and LinkedIn.
I will see you for the next episode of the piano part.
Thank you, Ophelia.
Kiwi kiwi.
Thank you.
Bye, everyone.
Thank you.
Thank you.

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