What did it take to get the Pasisade Fires under control in LA County, California in the winter of 2025? How does aerial firefighting compare in Quebec and California? In this final part of our 2 part series on aerial firefighting, we sit down once again with aerial firefighter Pascal Duclos. Pascal has been fighting fires across Canada and the United States for many years, but this year he encountered conditions he had never previously seen. Tune in today to hear about bringing the LA County fires under control, as well as comparing firefighting in California and Quebec!
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Bryan (00:58):
Alright. We're ready for departure here at the pilot
project podcast, the best sourcefor stories and advice from RCAF
and mission aviation pilotsbrought to you by Skies
Magazine. I'm your host, BrianMorrison. With me today is
Pascal Duclaud, an aerialfirefighting pilot with Servis
Airgaines Governmental duQuebec. Pascal, welcome back to
the show.
I've been looking forward tothis. Listeners can tune into
part one of our chat to hearabout Pascal's early career, his
(01:21):
flight training, as well as howhe arrived in LA County and
began to fight the fires there.Today, for part two of our chat
with Pascal, we're going to talkabout the challenges he and his
crews faced, how the fires werefinally brought under control,
and some of the differencesbetween fighting fires in LA and
Quebec. So let's roll right intotalking about some of the
challenges you faced over there.The airspace must have been
extremely busy at times.
(01:42):
How is all that managed?
Pascal (01:43):
Yeah. It was a really busy airspace even on beginning
with the all the chopperresponding to the fire there.
It's mainly managed by the whatwe call HELCO. It's a helicopter
controller there. And when itget bigger, we get more people
involved.
Basically, there's some urgencywho's gonna take care of the
(02:06):
traffic control from the fixedwing. The HELCO gonna switch to
the lead plane or other kind offixed wing controller guys on
the airplane who gonna controlthe traffic, especially for,
let's say, one side of the thefire and get control of, let's
say, left side of the the fireand manage all the fixed wing on
the left side.
Bryan (02:27):
Okay. So they start to split up the responsibilities?
Pascal (02:29):
Yeah. Exactly. Okay.
Bryan (02:31):
How does the increased air traffic with more
helicopters than fixed wingaircraft affect the safety and
effectiveness of aerialfirefighting operations?
Pascal (02:39):
It is yeah. With all the smoke in the area, restricted
visibility and vicinity of fire,it's the main concern for all
the pilots. You when you'reheading to the fire and the
visibility going low, youcertainly wanna make sure the
the line is clear before you gointo the drop zone. So, it's a
(03:00):
big concern for every pilot inthe, for, environmental thing.
Bryan (03:05):
Does it take some time to get used to that? Like, at
first, do you find yourselfnervous when you're new to it?
Pascal (03:10):
I guess you just trust the old guys who they are used
to, but for sure, you just startthinking about that when you get
into the smoke and didn't seenothing and you heard somebody
and getting out of the smoke.
Bryan (03:23):
Yeah. For sure. It reminds me a little bit of
flying. I think I might havesaid this to you in our pre
interview call. It reminds me ofdoing anti submarine work down
low at night.
You can't see anything. You knowthere's helicopters below you
and you just have to trust thateverybody's following the rules
and procedures and that that'sgonna keep everybody safe.
Pascal (03:41):
Yeah. Yeah. That's yeah. You're just hoping everybody's
fighting the rule. But in thesedays, it's much easier with the
iPad and the ADS B trafficadvisory and TCAS and
everything.
So it's much easier to have abetter situational awareness in
the far area.
Bryan (04:02):
Yeah. I guess that new technology would be like a huge
boost to your situationalawareness. Yeah. For sure. So as
you're aware, one of the c lfour fifteens was out of service
temporarily due to a collisionwith an unauthorized drone.
How frustrating was that for youand the other pilots given how
unnecessary and dangerous thatwas?
Pascal (04:21):
It was really frustrating for us for sure
because we just get back of thefirst mission of the day that
they we hit the drone, and theplane was, of course, down for
the for a few days. Right? Yeah.So it was really disappointing
for the help we can brought tothe the fire because there was
(04:43):
planning to to go back on thepadded side fire this time when
we get back and the technicianrealized we we hit the drone
because the crew didn't know,notice any sound or
Bryan (04:57):
Oh, really?
Pascal (04:57):
Feeling of the the drone impact. Wow.
Bryan (05:00):
I would have thought they would notice that.
Pascal (05:02):
No. No. No. Nobody noticed. That was with all the
communication and the wind, thethe the, you know, turbulence
and everything.
So it's
Bryan (05:11):
Super noisy and bumpy, so you wouldn't you just wouldn't
feel it or hear it?
Pascal (05:15):
Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.
Bryan (05:17):
What was the damage to the aircraft?
Pascal (05:20):
Well, there was a pretty big hole on the left, let's say,
three quarter wings span of it.So there was a pretty big hole
there. When the technician getup, he found the the drone
inside of the the wings and withsome part of the drone, and they
found the the battery inside ofthe wing as well. Yeah.
Bryan (05:41):
Oh, wow. So what would have happened if that had hit,
say, an engine and caused anengine failure? What happens to
a CL four fifteen if you have anengine failure when you have a
belly full of water?
Pascal (05:52):
We are trained to manage that for sure. So we can manage
it. But of course, an enginefailure can be dramatic if, you
know, something went wrong or,you know, if it's in the worst
place. Let's say just after thescoop or just before the drop,
you're heading into the canyonand you have engine failure. I
(06:14):
don't know.
If if you forget something onthe sequence, it could be really
dangerous. And yeah. So we werelucky it was happening only on
the on the wings. But even onthe wings, it could be really
dramatic if you think about thebattery getting hot and explode
inside of the wing. You havefuel tank over there, fuel
(06:36):
nacelles, so it could bedramatic as well.
Even on the wind chair can gothrough.
Bryan (06:42):
Yeah. It's super lucky that that battery didn't
experience like a catastrophicfailure, overheat and explode.
That would have been crazy.Yeah. So overall, what is it
like to fly in such congestedairspace?
Pascal (06:55):
It's a little bit stressful for sure. And you are
like looking all over the placeto see the traffic, see because
you still have to look at allthe terrain hazard you can have.
So we are too in the in thecockpit and this sometimes feel
not enough to to see everybodyand all the hazards.
Bryan (07:18):
Yeah. I can imagine. Now onboard, you're listening to
four different radios duringfirefighting operations. Are
there any strategies you use tomaintain clear and effective
communications in the air?
Pascal (07:28):
Yeah. Four four seems a lot, but when you get used to,
you play with the volume on theeach radio and so you get used
to. You listen four, you'retalking on the other one. So
it's doable with everybody.
Bryan (07:44):
Yeah. Do you divide it up? Like, do you say, hey, you
listen to radios two and three,I'll listen to radios one and
four or anything like that?
Pascal (07:52):
The captain will listen all four for sure. Sometime the
copilot is he's the guy who'stalking in the in LA. So
sometime the copilot dividessome he will send it to the
captain, I will let you the FMradio.
Bryan (08:06):
Mhmm.
Pascal (08:07):
So because they have to talk if something is busy in the
FM radio, so we switch yeah. Itdeveloped for to be able to
talk.
Bryan (08:15):
I'm picturing how busy you guys must be. It's gotta be
crazy because, again, I can onlyrelate to my own experience, but
on the Aurora, we had a flightengineer. Right? So we were
busy. We were flying low.
There's lots of we're listeningto four plus radios sometimes.
And I've talked about thetraffic we would encounter. But
we had a flight engineer tomanage our systems, and if there
was an emergency or something,you know, we had a systems
(08:37):
expert sitting in between us. Soit must be really challenging
with just the two pilots onboard.
Pascal (08:42):
It is. It is challenging. Yeah. Especially in
Los Angeles area.
Bryan (08:47):
Yeah. No doubt.
Pascal (08:48):
With all the control zone and the traffic. Because
you have sometimes you havetraffic outside of the TFR, fire
zone, let's say.
Bryan (08:57):
TFR is a temporary flight restriction. Right?
Pascal (09:00):
Yeah. Yeah. It is. So because for us, we're gonna need
to go outside of the TFR toscoop. So you're gonna have to
manage all the control zone andthe civil traffic on on top of
all the rest you have to manage.
Bryan (09:18):
Wow. I never even thought of that. But yeah, you have to
transit to and from the firearea. And I guess they don't
just stand up some kind ofcorridor or anything for you.
You have to transit as if youwere any other aircraft.
But you must get priority.Right?
Pascal (09:29):
We tend to stay out of a control zone
Bryan (09:32):
Okay.
Pascal (09:33):
For most of the time. But if you have to go through
some control zone, you're gonnarequest the priority for sure.
Bryan (09:40):
Okay. So we're talking about how you transit there.
Speaking of scooping, you scoopwater from both reservoirs and
the ocean in these operations.Can you describe the techniques
and challenges of operating outof the reservoirs of California?
Pascal (09:53):
Scooping out of the reservoir is is challenging
because the reservoir has ispretty small. It's not as big as
a lake. So some are pretty big,like Castaic Reservoir, but
other are smaller, like Santa FeReservoir. So, yeah, it can be
really challenging. So you haveto manage the amount of water
(10:15):
you're gonna have enter or exitthe wind.
Yeah. It's it's really ateamwork when you go there. So
you have to talk with the othercrew to just to make sure
everybody understand what we'regonna do and what are we gonna
do.
Bryan (10:32):
What kind of challenges specifically for the reservoirs?
Like, you have a lot ofobstacles to worry about or are
they typically pretty cleararound them or
Pascal (10:39):
Normally, it's pretty clear, but there's some with the
power line at the end of eithereither on exit or entry. So,
just everybody goes through by agood briefing Yeah. Before the
scoop, and even after the scoopif something went wrong or if
somebody is not comfortable withthat. So just make sure
everybody is aware of everyhazard there or everybody needs
(11:04):
a good situational awareness forfor that.
Bryan (11:07):
It reminds me sort of of when you're doing your private
pilot license training andyou're doing a precautionary
emergency landing. Do you dosort of that same idea where you
do a flyby and look at thereservoir and observe it for
obstacles and length and windand all those things?
Pascal (11:22):
Yeah. Yeah. It's almost the same. Yeah.
Bryan (11:24):
Okay.
Pascal (11:25):
It's basically doing extend touch and go because you
you stay in the water for twelveto fifteen seconds to scoop, all
the 1,600 gallons. So, it's kindof a extend touch and go, but
you have to make sure the entryand the exit is good.
Bryan (11:41):
Okay.
Pascal (11:42):
Even if you have, like, a engine fire, engine fail, or
something like that.
Bryan (11:47):
Okay. Sounds really challenging.
Pascal (11:49):
It is. Yeah.
Bryan (11:50):
Yeah. What special challenges are involved in
scooping from the ocean?
Pascal (11:56):
From the ocean is could be really really bumpy because
the frequency of the wave aredifferent than what you're gonna
have from wind waves. So theycall it a swell. So it could be
really rough and could break theplane if you if you go wrong way
or if you go too big as well. Sowhen it goes big, you tend to
(12:21):
just scoop the top of the of theswell or the wave. So you you
need to keep the plane flying.
Let's say like that.
Bryan (12:30):
Okay. So you're basically flying along the crest of the
swell and scooping from there?Yeah. Does the salt affect the
aircraft at all or the watertanks and lines or anything like
that?
Pascal (12:43):
Yeah. Yeah. The salt affect the the plane for sure.
So every time we go in theocean, the technician need to
wash the plane inside of thetank, water tank, and hot side
after the day or few days ofscooping inside of the ocean.
And we need to do a compressorwash as well for the engine.
Oh, yeah. So you're probablyprobably gonna have to do that
(13:04):
when the army arrives since youfly just over the ocean.
Bryan (13:08):
Yep. Yeah. We have rules that basically, if you fly below
a certain altitude, have to gothrough we call it the bird
bath. It's this huge thing thatsprays the plane down. So the
technicians have to do extrastuff as well and it's a lot of
work for sure for them.
Pascal (13:23):
Yeah. It's almost the same thing but we just don't
have the big shower so they
Bryan (13:26):
need to
Pascal (13:27):
have my hose and brush.
Bryan (13:29):
Oh, that's a lot of work. Yeah, it is. So new captains
have to train to scoop from theocean. Do you do that training
during active firefightingmissions? And if not, when?
Pascal (13:39):
No. We don't do that training during fire mission. We
do that on the day which isseems calm, calm day. It's it's
gonna be an alert day for sure,but let's say, there's no active
fire in the area, so we can dotraining. And we try to find not
(14:00):
too rough day just to make surethe new captain or the candidate
can learn from the the trainingand cannot be scared, know.
Bryan (14:07):
Mhmm. Yeah. Because if the conditions are too
difficult, they're not gonnalearn anything.
Pascal (14:12):
Yeah. That's right.
Bryan (14:13):
Yeah. That's the same principles we follow in the air
force with our student training.Like, it's okay to have
conditions be challenging, butthere's a limit where any type
of learning is just not gonnahappen because they're
struggling too much with withthe conditions.
Pascal (14:26):
Exactly.
Bryan (14:28):
Do you eventually say you do it on a calm day after that?
Do you take them out on arougher day?
Pascal (14:33):
No. Because we try to don't do ocean scooping often.
So we just do that on thenecessary.
Bryan (14:41):
Right.
Pascal (14:41):
So it's gonna be one training for for captain, and
after that, it's gonna bereleased.
Bryan (14:47):
Okay.
Pascal (14:47):
And that's it. After that, he's gonna pick up his,
say, his own technique with thebase of technique you can have
in the scoop on the ocean. Soyeah. So it's a one shot deal
for the training.
Bryan (15:02):
Is that because it's hard on the plane or because it's
dangerous? Or why do you do itas little as possible?
Pascal (15:09):
Just to because it's hard on the plane for sure. And,
for maintenance guys as well,they
Bryan (15:14):
Yeah.
Pascal (15:15):
That does bring a lot of work on the after the, the
training. So one is not reallynecessary. We're not gonna go in
the ocean.
Bryan (15:23):
Yeah. For sure. So partly it's just being considerate for
your ground crew.
Pascal (15:27):
Yeah. Exactly.
Bryan (15:27):
Yeah. What performance challenges do you face when
taking off full from Santa Feconsidering the weight of fuel
and water? Because you're takingoff with full water from Santa
Fe. Right?
Pascal (15:37):
Yeah. In Los Angeles, we're taking off from Van Nuys
with 5,000 pound of fuel. We'regonna be able to scoop from
Santa Fe, I'll say almost fullof water. Depend of the wind and
the temperature, of course, and,you know, the situation, the
waiting time you're gonna gonnado before scooping. Because when
we're taking off from Van Nuys,we're taking off with water just
(16:00):
like we said before, I guess.
So we're gonna head to the firedirectly from the first takeoff.
And after that, we're gonnahold, do all the procedure to
get in the fire, and after that,getting to the Santa Fe to,
holding kind of a recon flight,just like I said, to see all the
(16:20):
hazard to make sure there's nopeople in the lake Yeah. Like on
a canoe or something like that.So and after that, we're gonna
scoop. So that's gonna burnquite a bit of fuel.
We're gonna be able to scoopalmost full full load of waters.
Bryan (16:35):
Okay. What are the performance challenges like when
you're departing when you'rethat heavy? How does the plane
perform under those conditions?It's quite hot. Right?
Pascal (16:43):
Yeah. Yeah. Far water means mainly hotter days. So,
yeah, it's, when you get offfull of water, it's not gonna
have a big performance on the onthe timeout. So but, the center
field is not that bad becauseyou have just, on one way, you
have a small dam on the at theend, which is maybe like five or
(17:06):
five feet.
So it's pretty easy to clearthat out.
Bryan (17:09):
So You've mentioned that when you're flying in
California, you're always on theedge of performance limits. Can
you give us some examples ofthat?
Pascal (17:17):
Yeah. Just like Santa Fe, if you go on the the hot
day, like, 43 degrees, no winds,that's gonna be really
challenging for the the climbout. Let's say you lose an
engine or something like that,that's gonna be more challenging
for sure. By the time you dropyour water after that's gonna
(17:38):
be, that's not bad. And lastwinter was really the wind
effect was putting us to thelimit of the airplane.
The wind we had, it was reallybumpy and was right at the edge
of the limit of the plane. Yeah.Even for the scoop on the ocean,
three or four feet of waves. Soscooping just on the only the
top with a crosswind. So it wasa left crosswind.
(18:02):
So to me, it was at the edge ofmy capacity to scoop out of the
ocean that day.
Bryan (18:07):
And that's saying something since you're one of
the more experienced pilots aswell. Right?
Pascal (18:12):
I will not say I'm one of the more experienced pilot,
but I'd say let's say that inaverage of you guys.
Bryan (18:19):
Sure. Sure. I like the humility. Just out of curiosity,
what kind of climb rates are youseeing in those conditions when
you're full? And what kind ofclimb rates would you see if you
were to lose an engine?
Pascal (18:34):
When we're full of load, let's say in a 40 degrees light
wind, you're gonna have between305 feet per minute
Bryan (18:46):
Okay.
Pascal (18:47):
Of climb. If you lose an engine, it's gonna be almost
same. I wanna say 300 more mostlikely, at 40 degrees light
wind.
Bryan (18:56):
But that's when you've dumped the water?
Pascal (18:57):
Or Yeah. Yeah. You dumped the water. So the first
action is gonna you're gonnahave to do if you lose an
engine, it's gonna dump thewater. What is challenging in
Los Angeles is if you still ifyou are able to keep the control
of the airplane even with theengine out, you're gonna try to
manage when you're gonna dropthe water because you don't
(19:18):
wanna hurt anybody in the in theground because you're not in the
middle of nowhere.
Bryan (19:22):
Yeah. Yeah. For sure. Because that water comes down
with like a lot of force. Right?
Pascal (19:26):
Yeah. Yeah. So yeah. So that's one of the challenging
parts operating in the cityarea.
Bryan (19:33):
Okay. Could you describe the difficulties posed by
updrafts and downdrafts in thehills of Los Angeles and how you
navigate these conditions? Howdifficult is the terrain itself?
Pascal (19:43):
Yeah. With the hybrid terrain, Montenegro steering,
you have to think about thewind. You have to try to
anticipate the wind directionfor the updraft and downdraft.
It's really challenging whenyou're not used to, but it's
just like going bicycle.Sometime you you get used to and
(20:06):
you don't really think about it,but you do something.
So you take one side of thevalley because you guts feeling
go there. So it just takes time.And after after a while, it just
like kinda come naturally to gonear on a good side.
Bryan (20:22):
You kind of learn to read the terrain and read the winds
and that that sort of thing?
Pascal (20:26):
Yeah. Exactly. You know, with the valley, the wind's
gonna follow the valley and cancan give you a hub draft
somewhere or a long draft. Soyou just have to be aware of
that. Again, after a bit ofwhile, you're gonna know, and
it's gonna be like a kind ofsecond nature to read that.
But it's not to really readbecause you cannot see nothing.
(20:49):
It's just you feel, anticipatewhat's what's gonna coming in
front of you.
Bryan (20:55):
Yeah. Like you said, it's a bit of a gut feeling. Yeah.
Yeah. That makes sense.
I would imagine visibility is achallenge when passing over the
fires. What is it like passingover the fires, and how do you
stay safe at low altitudes whenvisibility drops in the smoke?
Pascal (21:10):
Passing over the fire, it's almost like going inside of
the dryer. You know, can imagineyou going inside the dryer,
putting the dryer on, and put amask in front of your eyes so
you don't see nothing and you goboom, boom, boom, boom, boom. So
Wow. Because it's gonna be bigtemperature change, momentarily
(21:31):
loss of visibility, and you'regonna drop eventually. So that's
gonna go put you higher,lighter, so you're gonna climb
out.
So the most important thing isto keep the wing straight. So
you don't wanna turn because if,you know, let's say you are in
the left turn and you have a hotspot on the right wing, which is
(21:53):
already 30 degrees or 20 degreeson a turn, that can turn you
over. So you don't wanna dothat.
Bryan (22:00):
It'll push that wing further up.
Pascal (22:02):
Yeah. Yeah. So, that's the most important thing. You
keep straight and drop yourwater and go instrument flying
for, let's say, a few seconds,five, ten seconds. Wow.
It depend of the intensity ofthe fire, you know. One of the
baseline is if you don't seethrough, you don't go through.
(22:24):
This is one of the baseline, butsometime you cannot see through
with maybe black smoke orsomething like that. So in Los
Angeles, we don't go throughblack smoke because the
intensity of the fire is reallybigger than what we have in
Canada. But because of the thevegetation is different, you
know.
Mhmm. So but in Canada,sometimes you you lose
(22:47):
everything for, let's say, tenseconds.
Bryan (22:51):
Wow. And you said just during that time you're on
instruments to stay wings level,basically?
Pascal (22:56):
Yeah. That's a that's a way to get out of that. Yeah.
Sometimes you have em embergoing inside of plane as well.
So
Bryan (23:03):
When you fly directly over a fire, this might be a
silly question, but do you feela change in temperature? Like,
can you notice it?
Pascal (23:11):
Yeah. You're gonna feel the hot and you're gonna you're
gonna see the amber or the ownerheard the different temperature
hitting the plane just like acompressor stall on the engine.
So yeah. So you're gonna feel itfor sure.
Bryan (23:28):
Okay. The fires were eventually contained as of the
01/31/2025. How did it feel whenthose fires were finally under
control? Was there a sense ofrelief, a job well done feeling,
or were you just excited to gohome?
Pascal (23:42):
There was a feeling of relief. We all try our best to
make that happen as soon aspossible. But since we have a
plane brought down, we didn't beable to go there, as often as we
would like to. And we've beenassessed to new fire after that
because there was really bigtraffic over there over the
(24:05):
Patilseld Fire and the otherfires. So that was managing to
put us on the new fire response.
But it was certainly a relieffrom all the crew to feel the
the end of those day of tragedyfor sure.
Bryan (24:20):
Yeah. Yeah. I bet. As you know, the c l four fifteen has
been involved in firefighting inCalifornia for decades. What do
you think this aircraft means tothe communities it serves down
there?
Pascal (24:30):
I think the people in community over there, they they
are really glad we're goingthere. It's a means of security
for them, means another tool inthe box for the firefighting
operation over there. So that'swhat I think the the thing. And
I think I tend to think the sameway, another tool in the box,
(24:51):
and that's good.
Bryan (24:52):
Yeah. And I mean, from what you've said, it sounds like
the CL four fifteen beingpurpose built for firefighting
is putting a lot of water perhour on the fire. It's it's a
great plane to have around.
Pascal (25:02):
Yeah. To my mind, it's it's the best airplane or
aircraft or best tool you canhave for initial attack. But
again, you have to use it as itwas designed for, so which is
initial attack. And after that,of course, you have more other
tools to to help. You know, it'sit's it's a big teamwork.
(25:26):
You're gonna have to manage withthat. So and you need to have
all those tools in your box forsure to extinguish the the
fires. So Right. Without anycrew on the ground, you're not
gonna be able to do nothing. Andwithout aerial firefighting, you
the crew on the ground will bein danger.
So there's a really big teamworkfor that.
Bryan (25:49):
Right. Like, I I think we said that in the first episode
that basically the idea is theaerial firefighters are
containing the fire and keepingit under control and the people
on the ground are actuallyputting it out. Right?
Pascal (26:00):
Yep. Exactly.
Bryan (26:01):
Yep. So the right tool at the right time.
Pascal (26:04):
Yep.
Bryan (26:05):
So as we've said, it's been more than a month now since
the LA Fires were contained. Iimagine it was somewhat of an
emotional experience. You talkedabout seeing people trapped on
rooftops, things like that. Haveyou thought about it? Have you
been able to process it, or isit something you just sort of
professionally maintain yourseparation from?
Pascal (26:22):
I try to do separation from that, but for sure,
sometime I'm I'm still thinkingabout it, about the the far the
intensity of the experiencethere. I was just talking this
morning with the other pilot whowas in the plane when he hit the
drone and was like lack ofadrenaline for from his side
(26:42):
when he get back after thePalisade fire and was like, what
happening to me? So you try tokeep your feelings away from
that, but it's hard to do. Soit's we still have some I would
say maybe some stress or somefatigue from from that, And we
(27:05):
just we are about to restart ournew season. So but we have to
put put that on the back of usand looking forward to next
season, the next challenge we'regonna face off.
Bryan (27:17):
Yeah. For sure. It is challenging because when you go
through these intenseexperiences, it takes time
sometimes to process it and forit to rise to the surface. And
you can realize monthsafterwards that, hey, I'm still
carrying a bit of stress fromthis or I'm still feeling some
pretty strong feelings from whatI what I saw or things like
that. So that must be difficultsometimes.
Pascal (27:37):
Yeah. But so far, everybody everybody feels good.
Good. So I can maybe I can talkto you in a in a few months of
from from now, maybe somethinggonna show up. But so for now,
far so good.
Oh, good. I'm glad to hear it.
Bryan (27:52):
What are the key lessons you've learned about risk
management and decision makingin high pressure aerial
firefighting situations?
Pascal (27:59):
The key to me, it's even if it's on the wayward, is
slower is safer. So if you andit's gonna be faster as well. So
if you go slower, you're gonnahave time to see all the the
threats, all the everything. Sothat's gonna be safer in a way,
(28:20):
and it's gonna be moreefficient. So sometime you have
to step back and look at whatyou're gonna do and go forward
after that.
And after you have a plan, it isgonna be more efficient,
Bryan (28:33):
so faster. You know, it's funny. That reminds me of a
expression I used to hear in themilitary sometimes, especially
if I was flying with Americansand it was slow is smooth,
smooth is fast. Yeah. Sobasically, taking your time to
do it right the first time isfaster than rushing and making
big mistakes.
Pascal (28:51):
Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. When you heading to a drop, if
you're not sure to drop to theright place or not sure it's
gonna be the most efficient wayto do it, you should say it,
then you should try another wayor manage something to get the
water the right place.
Bryan (29:09):
Yeah. And it's I imagine that's a crew effort as well. If
anyone has concerns or if anyonehas doubts, that's the time to
speak up.
Pascal (29:17):
Yeah. Exactly. And even with the Elko and everything, so
just make sure the guys who isin charge of the operation know
what you're gonna do and youknow what's gonna what what you
want you to do. So there's nomistakes makes, no danger
involved for the crew on theground or, you know, it's gonna
(29:37):
be more efficient. So that's whythat's why slow is good.
Bryan (29:42):
Yeah. How dangerous is it for the crew on the ground if
they get dropped on?
Pascal (29:47):
The drop on, if it's not let's say the main part of the
drop would be not really bad,but they can feel that's that's
gonna be slippery. On LosAngeles, there's there's no
really big tree except if youare kind of valley or something
like that, so you can break atree. But in Canada, you you can
break a tree. Oh, yeah. A treeor something like that that can
(30:09):
fall on the the firefighterunderground.
So for that that reason, thefirefighter in Canada, they are
farther from our dropping zone,dropping areas. So we're not
really concerned about thatbecause we we still are we still
are concerned about that, butthey're not supposed to be in
(30:31):
the dropping area since in LosAngeles. They are closer from
our dropping zones. So, but theyare easier to see, so we can
manage that safer. So that'sthat's that's one of concern,
but it's not really, if you'renot too low, it's not really
(30:52):
dangerous.
Bryan (30:53):
Yeah. It sounds like there's ways to mitigate it both
in Los Angeles and in Quebec.
Pascal (30:57):
Yeah. Yeah.
Bryan (30:58):
Of course. What would you say was the most memorable
moment for you while you werefighting these fires?
Pascal (31:05):
The end of the first mission after the first two hour
and a half. I was I was reallysatisfied about the the first
mission at two hour and a half,and was quite a really good
working with the helico in placefrom the helico in was really
efficient for my mind. So, yeah,that was that was pretty good.
(31:26):
And I think my the other crew onthe other plane was taking the
same ways. So, yeah, I think itwould be the the end of the
first two hour and a half.
Bryan (31:37):
Yeah. Just knowing that you had a good system in place
and that you guys were gonna beable to fight the fires with the
help of the HELCO.
Pascal (31:44):
Yeah. Exactly. And, you know, the say, the most
efficient way we can we can doit on that fire. So we were
protecting an area with, youknow, people and home. So it was
Bryan (31:59):
effective. Did you have any scary moments while fighting
the fires?
Pascal (32:05):
Not really because you don't have time to think about
that, you know. So you just doyour best you can do and you
don't have time to think really.So you do your turn, you push a
pedal, and you're heading backto the ocean. You do your best
with the crosswind you have andscoop heading back to the
(32:25):
dropping zone, drop and turn 40degrees, 45 degrees, and then
back to the ocean and do itagain. So now you There's no
time.
I will not say any no. There'sno time for for that. Maybe
maybe after that, but not notduring the flight.
Bryan (32:42):
Did you find that there was some stress in between
flights at all?
Pascal (32:45):
Maybe there was stress with the when we on the second
mission, we we had to go getwater over the Castaic Lake, so
that would make us crossing toMountain Ridge. And with the
wind we have that day was reallybumpy. So after after the day
(33:06):
when we spoke together, we wewere kind of a stress with the
the turbulence we get overthere.
Bryan (33:16):
Yeah. How intense was that turbulence?
Pascal (33:19):
It was severe turbulence and, you know, we had the the
caution line coming out for theengine, know, high pressure Oh,
wow. Because the c l fourfifteen is not is not authorized
for negative g, so we can cannotdo, like, atherotic flight with
(33:40):
that. So there's no there's onlyone oil pump, so there's no
there's no way to manage thenegative g on the oil system. So
they have moved to the blank ofa master cushion for the oil
pressure, but there was likemaybe quarter or or something
like that, just enough totrigger the master cushion and
(34:02):
you are not able to see what'swhat's going on. So but it was
happening maybe one out of twotimes crossing the the ridge.
So we decided to go higher tocross the ridge to avoid that
situation. But even higher waswas really rough.
Bryan (34:21):
So it was so rough that it was giving you guys negative
g and that was tripping the oilpressure master caution?
Pascal (34:29):
Yep. Wow. Yeah. That was as rough as that.
Bryan (34:32):
That's pretty intense.
Pascal (34:34):
Yeah. Yeah. So we have a five points harness to be tied
in the seat and everythingeverything was tied to the hips
and Yeah. Try to stay in theseat.
Bryan (34:46):
Yeah. No kidding. It's not fun getting thrown around
like that.
Pascal (34:50):
No. No. No. Not really. Not really.
Bryan (34:53):
So it's likely these kinds of fires are going to
become more common. What do youthink needs to change in order
to make communities moreresilient in the face of this
kind of event?
Pascal (35:02):
Yeah. In my mind, it's gonna be maybe more often. I
hope would be not like as bad aswhat we get last winter. But
with what we saw in the season02/23 in Canada and last winter
in California, the water in theworld would be looks like going
drier and unstable. So that'sgonna bring a situation like
(35:27):
that.
So I don't know what what to dowith with that, like, just like
everybody, I think.
Bryan (35:33):
Yeah. It's a big question.
Pascal (35:34):
Yeah. Yeah. It's pretty big. It's it's probably people
should be ready to have a goaway bag or something like that,
you know, when when you are inthe area in danger of that, like
like in Los Angeles in thevicinity of a brush or wall
terrains. So that would be thebest the best way.
(35:57):
Just try to keep yourself safeand your family. And I don't
think there's nothing you can doagainst the element at the at
the end. So you can do yourbest, but the element will win.
Bryan (36:12):
Yeah. That's good advice though, to have a go bag ready
to go if you're living in anarea that's prone to forest
fires or brush fires. That's areally good thought. Yeah. So
let's talk about firefighting inQuebec.
First of all, you've mentionedthe twenty twenty two, twenty
three season being prettyintense. Can you just tell us a
little bit about that?
Pascal (36:32):
Yeah. There was in Quebec, it was the biggest
season we ever had. So and itwas my first season as a chief
pilot, so that was a reallychallenging season for me. And,
yeah, we we almost every pilotin the service enquiry martial
almost hit the the trigger ofthe the duty, hours duty,
(36:56):
monthly hours.
Bryan (36:58):
Oh, the maximum duty hours?
Pascal (36:59):
Yeah. The maximum duty hours. So it never happened
before. It happened with onegroup, but not with all the
pilots. So that was challengingto try to manage that.
And the fire was closed fromfrom the city in Quebec. So this
isn't we we are not used to inin Quebec. Normally, the fire
(37:22):
happened quite a bit far of thefrom from the city. Sometime we
have one fire from close by acity, but it's pretty rare that
we have more than one. So butAnna 2023 was every fire was
almost closed from a cityreserve.
So that was really intense. Doesthat
Bryan (37:45):
just raise the stakes for you guys, or does it also make
it more challenging?
Pascal (37:50):
It was making more challenging, you know, to to be
in the air and, you know, try todo our best. But sometimes, you
know, it's frustrating when yousee the fire there and you don't
have the ability to go becauseyour time x are for the day, you
don't have crew, so you haveplane on the ground. This is
(38:12):
more on the management side, butthere was the reality what we
are facing on the 2023. So wehave plane down from lack of
crew. So that was pretty roughto manage that and try to make a
move with the crew to put theplane back in the air, doing a
training during the morning examat, like, noon and doing the
(38:37):
fire mission in the afternoon.
Wow. So that was a really longday for the training department
and everybody was involved withall of that, the management
team. So it was a long day.
Bryan (38:49):
Yeah. That sounds like long intense days.
Pascal (38:52):
Yeah. It was.
Bryan (38:53):
Yeah. The summer firefighting season is only a
few months away. What will thatlook like for you and how are
you preparing for what's ahead?
Pascal (39:01):
Yeah. The it's it's almost there for sure. We start
the training, like, pretty soon,next Friday. So there's lots of
training to do. There's newhiring pilots.
We're still looking for pilots,by the way, if somebody is wanna
come. And yes. So it's gonna betraining, training, training for
(39:27):
the next, let's say, five, sixweek for us and check out from
for the new hiring pilots. Andafter that, it's gonna be gonna
be back in the in thepreparation for the Los Angeles
County. Yeah.
So lots of training simulator inthe in flights.
Bryan (39:50):
Yeah. And then you do it all again?
Pascal (39:52):
Yeah. And paperwork and deployment to Los Angeles again
at the in the falls. And justcross finger, this is gonna be a
slow season this year.
Bryan (40:02):
Yeah. No kidding. Because you said, what, over a hundred
days away as a aerialfirefighter every year?
Pascal (40:08):
Yeah. The the pilots normally do in Quebec, the the
what what the guy is doing isaround sixty five to seventy
five days, out on the scheduleof, fifteen days on, three days
off. And after that, on top ofthat, you have to have the, one
rotation in Los Angeles, whichis almost thirty days. So it's
(40:30):
closed by one hundred days perpilot out of the of home.
Bryan (40:35):
Do people find that's tough on their family life?
Pascal (40:39):
Yes. Yes. It certainly needs a good synergy in the with
the family and with the kids forfor body have kids and wife.
Yeah. It's it's tough.
Last winter was pretty tough forall all the pilot involved in
the situation of Los Angeles forsure. Yeah. Because the season
(41:01):
extend until the February, sothat was really very long for
them.
Bryan (41:07):
Yeah. That is a long one.
Pascal (41:09):
Yeah. I've done, I think, hundred and ten days in
Los Angeles, last winter. Sothat was that was long. That's
tough. And yeah.
And it's it is on top of that,have to put the the days in
Quebec out of out of home. So
Bryan (41:26):
So how do you manage that with your family?
Pascal (41:29):
Just try to don't have my doggy bag on the outside of
the house when I get back, youknow. So yeah. But what I doing,
it's just try to be when I amhome, I'm just trying to be with
the family and try to don't workor don't think about work, which
(41:55):
is pretty rough for me. Yeah. Sobecause I'm still in management,
so the the the phone ring allover the time.
So that's pretty tough, butthat's my goal. And just
sometime we just go out in theforest and where there where
there's no single andeverything. So there's really
(42:17):
family times.
Bryan (42:18):
Yeah. Yeah. Making sure you get that dedicated family
time in when you're not working.
Pascal (42:24):
Exactly. Exactly. Just go on a vacancy or something
some some place outside withoutany phone.
Bryan (42:34):
How do firefighting conditions differ in California
and Quebec?
Pascal (42:38):
Yeah. It is different. You know, the the way we get
water over there, it'sdifferent. The territory is
different with the mountain andthe visitation. And the purpose
of the the the way they use thethe the four fifteen in Los
Angeles and in Quebec is isdifferent.
So we're used as initial attackin Los Angeles than what we are
(43:04):
in Quebec. Even if we're stillin the initial attack in a
attack in Quebec, with thebigger terrain to to protect is
is different because sometimesyou have to do an hour, an hour
and a half to go to the theforest. So it's that's still
initial attack. But since wedon't have any enough base to
(43:26):
protect all the all the region,so it's it's hard to to get
there, let's say, like in LosAngeles in five, ten minutes,
twenty minutes. So the goal isto be there in forty five
minutes, but sometime it's notpossible.
Bryan (43:44):
Okay.
Pascal (43:44):
Because there's no there's no airport somewhere. So
gonna have to fly to go thereand that that's it. So that's
that's a different way to do it.
Bryan (43:54):
What are the challenges specific to firefighting in
Quebec?
Pascal (43:58):
One of the challenge in when you get in the, June, the
fire can go really deep in the,land. So you, you're gonna put
water and water and water, andthat's gonna affect the the fire
you're gonna see, the openflames. But you go back for fuel
(44:19):
and you and you're coming backto the incident, and you're
gonna it's gonna be relightingbecause the wind was picking up
or something like that and justhamper some somewhere some place
on the roots and getting out. Sothat's one of the challenge for
sure because with all theterrain we have to protect here,
(44:42):
there's not enough firefighterin the ground. So sometimes you
leave in every year and you say,oh, that's good.
We we get we we've done a goodjob here and there's no no more
fire here. You leave, you get atthe base, fueled up, eat, and
get a call over the same placebecause there's nobody in the
ground. So you have to go back.
Bryan (45:01):
That must be frustrating.
Pascal (45:03):
It is. It is. But this part of the the big terrain to
protect, you know.
Bryan (45:10):
Yeah, for sure.
Pascal (45:11):
Most likely is middle of nowhere. So there's no there's
no issue for the the publicsafety or something like that.
But it's still frustrating.
Bryan (45:19):
Yeah. It's just a loss of forest. Yeah. Yeah. But I mean,
like you said, Quebec is huge.
Right? So you can't expect like,there's only so many people, so
many ground crews, and Quebec isenormous. So those are the
things you're gonna run into.
Pascal (45:34):
Exactly. Just like other provinces and, you know, BC is
like that as well. You youcannot have people all over the
place ready to fight the fire,so
Bryan (45:47):
Yeah. Where is it easier to get water for firefighting
and why?
Pascal (45:52):
I would say on the lake for sure. On a big lake. So
Quebec? Quebec Quebec is prettygood because we have really lots
of lake. There's many, manylakes.
So more lakes you have, morechance you you you have to have
a good line on the one closerthe incidents. So, yeah, I would
(46:15):
say close by lots of watersource.
Bryan (46:20):
Overall, which theater is more challenging when it comes
to firefighting, Los Angeles orQuebec, and why?
Pascal (46:26):
Definitely more challenging to fight fire in the
Los Angeles because it's middleof a city. There's a camera all
over the place filming you withthe, like, a chopper over the
the TFR with a big camera zoomin zoom in on you so you have
(46:47):
more pressure to don't miss thedrop. And, yeah, so there's and
it's middle of the just like thePalestinian fire was right in
the neighborhoods, so withpeople on the ground. So it's
definitely more challenging inin California.
Bryan (47:05):
Okay. Alright. We're gonna wrap it up with a few
final questions. Firefighting isemotionally and physically
difficult. What is one thing youdo to stay ready to do your job?
Pascal (47:16):
Just try to have a good rest and, stay in shape. So,
have a walk, running, or,anything you can can do to stay
in shape. But the the main goalis have the good good rest, good
sleep, and be ready for the nextday.
Bryan (47:37):
Yeah. I'm not surprised to hear that answer, especially
with the nature of what you guysdo. It's just you're going every
day. Right? Or you're eithergoing or you're on standby.
So you pretty much have to beready all the time. So rest
would be crucial.
Pascal (47:49):
Exactly. Exactly. Good food as well.
Bryan (47:53):
Yeah. Do you have extensive experience in
firefighting and flying ingeneral? What do you think makes
a great firefighting pilot?
Pascal (48:01):
I think it's it's combination of knowledge,
experience. You need to bepretty calm even if it's really
stressful, you and you wannarush the the thing, you wanna go
fast, but you need to stay calmin that and, put the priority in
(48:24):
a a good place, you know. So Ithink you you need to manage
everything of that and, forsure, in beginning, be open
minded to, learn the good way todo it. So, yeah, I think think
about that. So knowledge andopen mind to learning the way to
(48:47):
do it.
Because even if you're a goodpilot on the something else we
had a fighter jet pilot beforecoming here, and there was,
like, oof, that's that'ssomething. So, and I'm pretty
sure I'm going on a fighter jet.I'm gonna be, oof, that's
something. So, know, it's aspecific job. So, you have even
if you have a big experience onback of on your background, you
(49:11):
have to stay open mind to, learnthe way you you can do it safer
and so yeah.
That's about it.
Bryan (49:20):
So arrive humble and ready to learn.
Pascal (49:23):
Yep.
Bryan (49:24):
Yep. If you were talking to a young pilot today who
wanted to get into aerialfirefighting, what advice would
you give to them?
Pascal (49:32):
Would give it to them. Be ready to be to leave home.
Yeah. So be be be ready to beaway from home. And that's a
better job you can have in mymind.
It's it's pretty good. It'schallenging. So you have a sense
of giving back to the communityas well. So it's one of the best
(49:55):
job in my mind, but it'scertainly tough to get there.
It's tough to get the experienceto get there, but it's worth it.
It's worth it. So Awesome.
Bryan (50:09):
Okay, Pascal. That does it for our chat today on aerial
firefighting and the fires in LACounty. It was such a pleasure
to hear your story, and thankyou for the work you do and for
being on the show.
Pascal (50:18):
My pleasure. Thank you.
Bryan (50:20):
Alright. Fly safe.
Pascal (50:21):
Thank you.
Bryan (50:23):
Alright. That wraps up our chat with Pascal Duclaud on
aerial firefighting in LA andQuebec. For our next episode, we
have a very special guestcoming. We are proud to announce
we will be interviewinglieutenant general Eric Kenny,
current commander of the RoyalCanadian Air Force. Do you have
any questions or comments aboutanything you've heard in this
show?
Would you or someone you knowmake a great guest, or do you
(50:44):
have a great idea for a show?You can reach out to us at the
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we'd like to thank you fortuning in and ask for your help
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share with your friends, andfollow and rate us five stars
(51:06):
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That's all for now. Thanks forlistening. Keep the blue side
up. See you.
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Bryan (00:58):
Alright. We're ready for departure here at the pilot
project podcast, the best sourcefor stories and advice from RCAF
and mission aviation pilotsbrought to you by Skies
Magazine. I'm your host, BrianMorrison. With me today is
Pascal Duclaud, an aerialfirefighting pilot with Servis
Airgaines Governmental duQuebec. Pascal, welcome back to
the show.
I've been looking forward tothis. Listeners can tune into
part one of our chat to hearabout Pascal's early career, his
(01:21):
flight training, as well as howhe arrived in LA County and
began to fight the fires there.Today, for part two of our chat
with Pascal, we're going to talkabout the challenges he and his
crews faced, how the fires werefinally brought under control,
and some of the differencesbetween fighting fires in LA and
Quebec. So let's roll right intotalking about some of the
challenges you faced over there.The airspace must have been
extremely busy at times.
(01:42):
How is all that managed?
Pascal (01:43):
Yeah. It was a really busy airspace even on beginning
with the all the chopperresponding to the fire there.
It's mainly managed by the whatwe call HELCO. It's a helicopter
controller there. And when itget bigger, we get more people
involved.
Basically, there's some urgencywho's gonna take care of the
(02:06):
traffic control from the fixedwing. The HELCO gonna switch to
the lead plane or other kind offixed wing controller guys on
the airplane who gonna controlthe traffic, especially for,
let's say, one side of the thefire and get control of, let's
say, left side of the the fireand manage all the fixed wing on
the left side.
Bryan (02:27):
Okay. So they start to split up the responsibilities?
Pascal (02:29):
Yeah. Exactly. Okay.
Bryan (02:31):
How does the increased air traffic with more
helicopters than fixed wingaircraft affect the safety and
effectiveness of aerialfirefighting operations?
Pascal (02:39):
It is yeah. With all the smoke in the area, restricted
visibility and vicinity of fire,it's the main concern for all
the pilots. You when you'reheading to the fire and the
visibility going low, youcertainly wanna make sure the
the line is clear before you gointo the drop zone. So, it's a
(03:00):
big concern for every pilot inthe, for, environmental thing.
Bryan (03:05):
Does it take some time to get used to that? Like, at
first, do you find yourselfnervous when you're new to it?
Pascal (03:10):
I guess you just trust the old guys who they are used
to, but for sure, you just startthinking about that when you get
into the smoke and didn't seenothing and you heard somebody
and getting out of the smoke.
Bryan (03:23):
Yeah. For sure. It reminds me a little bit of
flying. I think I might havesaid this to you in our pre
interview call. It reminds me ofdoing anti submarine work down
low at night.
You can't see anything. You knowthere's helicopters below you
and you just have to trust thateverybody's following the rules
and procedures and that that'sgonna keep everybody safe.
Pascal (03:41):
Yeah. Yeah. That's yeah. You're just hoping everybody's
fighting the rule. But in thesedays, it's much easier with the
iPad and the ADS B trafficadvisory and TCAS and
everything.
So it's much easier to have abetter situational awareness in
the far area.
Bryan (04:02):
Yeah. I guess that new technology would be like a huge
boost to your situationalawareness. Yeah. For sure. So as
you're aware, one of the c lfour fifteens was out of service
temporarily due to a collisionwith an unauthorized drone.
How frustrating was that for youand the other pilots given how
unnecessary and dangerous thatwas?
Pascal (04:21):
It was really frustrating for us for sure
because we just get back of thefirst mission of the day that
they we hit the drone, and theplane was, of course, down for
the for a few days. Right? Yeah.So it was really disappointing
for the help we can brought tothe the fire because there was
(04:43):
planning to to go back on thepadded side fire this time when
we get back and the technicianrealized we we hit the drone
because the crew didn't know,notice any sound or
Bryan (04:57):
Oh, really?
Pascal (04:57):
Feeling of the the drone impact. Wow.
Bryan (05:00):
I would have thought they would notice that.
Pascal (05:02):
No. No. No. Nobody noticed. That was with all the
communication and the wind, thethe the, you know, turbulence
and everything.
So it's
Bryan (05:11):
Super noisy and bumpy, so you wouldn't you just wouldn't
feel it or hear it?
Pascal (05:15):
Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.
Bryan (05:17):
What was the damage to the aircraft?
Pascal (05:20):
Well, there was a pretty big hole on the left, let's say,
three quarter wings span of it.So there was a pretty big hole
there. When the technician getup, he found the the drone
inside of the the wings and withsome part of the drone, and they
found the the battery inside ofthe wing as well. Yeah.
Bryan (05:41):
Oh, wow. So what would have happened if that had hit,
say, an engine and caused anengine failure? What happens to
a CL four fifteen if you have anengine failure when you have a
belly full of water?
Pascal (05:52):
We are trained to manage that for sure. So we can manage
it. But of course, an enginefailure can be dramatic if, you
know, something went wrong or,you know, if it's in the worst
place. Let's say just after thescoop or just before the drop,
you're heading into the canyonand you have engine failure. I
(06:14):
don't know.
If if you forget something onthe sequence, it could be really
dangerous. And yeah. So we werelucky it was happening only on
the on the wings. But even onthe wings, it could be really
dramatic if you think about thebattery getting hot and explode
inside of the wing. You havefuel tank over there, fuel
(06:36):
nacelles, so it could bedramatic as well.
Even on the wind chair can gothrough.
Bryan (06:42):
Yeah. It's super lucky that that battery didn't
experience like a catastrophicfailure, overheat and explode.
That would have been crazy.Yeah. So overall, what is it
like to fly in such congestedairspace?
Pascal (06:55):
It's a little bit stressful for sure. And you are
like looking all over the placeto see the traffic, see because
you still have to look at allthe terrain hazard you can have.
So we are too in the in thecockpit and this sometimes feel
not enough to to see everybodyand all the hazards.
Bryan (07:18):
Yeah. I can imagine. Now onboard, you're listening to
four different radios duringfirefighting operations. Are
there any strategies you use tomaintain clear and effective
communications in the air?
Pascal (07:28):
Yeah. Four four seems a lot, but when you get used to,
you play with the volume on theeach radio and so you get used
to. You listen four, you'retalking on the other one. So
it's doable with everybody.
Bryan (07:44):
Yeah. Do you divide it up? Like, do you say, hey, you
listen to radios two and three,I'll listen to radios one and
four or anything like that?
Pascal (07:52):
The captain will listen all four for sure. Sometime the
copilot is he's the guy who'stalking in the in LA. So
sometime the copilot dividessome he will send it to the
captain, I will let you the FMradio.
Bryan (08:06):
Mhmm.
Pascal (08:07):
So because they have to talk if something is busy in the
FM radio, so we switch yeah. Itdeveloped for to be able to
talk.
Bryan (08:15):
I'm picturing how busy you guys must be. It's gotta be
crazy because, again, I can onlyrelate to my own experience, but
on the Aurora, we had a flightengineer. Right? So we were
busy. We were flying low.
There's lots of we're listeningto four plus radios sometimes.
And I've talked about thetraffic we would encounter. But
we had a flight engineer tomanage our systems, and if there
was an emergency or something,you know, we had a systems
(08:37):
expert sitting in between us. Soit must be really challenging
with just the two pilots onboard.
Pascal (08:42):
It is. It is challenging. Yeah. Especially in
Los Angeles area.
Bryan (08:47):
Yeah. No doubt.
Pascal (08:48):
With all the control zone and the traffic. Because
you have sometimes you havetraffic outside of the TFR, fire
zone, let's say.
Bryan (08:57):
TFR is a temporary flight restriction. Right?
Pascal (09:00):
Yeah. Yeah. It is. So because for us, we're gonna need
to go outside of the TFR toscoop. So you're gonna have to
manage all the control zone andthe civil traffic on on top of
all the rest you have to manage.
Bryan (09:18):
Wow. I never even thought of that. But yeah, you have to
transit to and from the firearea. And I guess they don't
just stand up some kind ofcorridor or anything for you.
You have to transit as if youwere any other aircraft.
But you must get priority.Right?
Pascal (09:29):
We tend to stay out of a control zone
Bryan (09:32):
Okay.
Pascal (09:33):
For most of the time. But if you have to go through
some control zone, you're gonnarequest the priority for sure.
Bryan (09:40):
Okay. So we're talking about how you transit there.
Speaking of scooping, you scoopwater from both reservoirs and
the ocean in these operations.Can you describe the techniques
and challenges of operating outof the reservoirs of California?
Pascal (09:53):
Scooping out of the reservoir is is challenging
because the reservoir has ispretty small. It's not as big as
a lake. So some are pretty big,like Castaic Reservoir, but
other are smaller, like Santa FeReservoir. So, yeah, it can be
really challenging. So you haveto manage the amount of water
(10:15):
you're gonna have enter or exitthe wind.
Yeah. It's it's really ateamwork when you go there. So
you have to talk with the othercrew to just to make sure
everybody understand what we'regonna do and what are we gonna
do.
Bryan (10:32):
What kind of challenges specifically for the reservoirs?
Like, you have a lot ofobstacles to worry about or are
they typically pretty cleararound them or
Pascal (10:39):
Normally, it's pretty clear, but there's some with the
power line at the end of eithereither on exit or entry. So,
just everybody goes through by agood briefing Yeah. Before the
scoop, and even after the scoopif something went wrong or if
somebody is not comfortable withthat. So just make sure
everybody is aware of everyhazard there or everybody needs
(11:04):
a good situational awareness forfor that.
Bryan (11:07):
It reminds me sort of of when you're doing your private
pilot license training andyou're doing a precautionary
emergency landing. Do you dosort of that same idea where you
do a flyby and look at thereservoir and observe it for
obstacles and length and windand all those things?
Pascal (11:22):
Yeah. Yeah. It's almost the same. Yeah.
Bryan (11:24):
Okay.
Pascal (11:25):
It's basically doing extend touch and go because you
you stay in the water for twelveto fifteen seconds to scoop, all
the 1,600 gallons. So, it's kindof a extend touch and go, but
you have to make sure the entryand the exit is good.
Bryan (11:41):
Okay.
Pascal (11:42):
Even if you have, like, a engine fire, engine fail, or
something like that.
Bryan (11:47):
Okay. Sounds really challenging.
Pascal (11:49):
It is. Yeah.
Bryan (11:50):
Yeah. What special challenges are involved in
scooping from the ocean?
Pascal (11:56):
From the ocean is could be really really bumpy because
the frequency of the wave aredifferent than what you're gonna
have from wind waves. So theycall it a swell. So it could be
really rough and could break theplane if you if you go wrong way
or if you go too big as well. Sowhen it goes big, you tend to
(12:21):
just scoop the top of the of theswell or the wave. So you you
need to keep the plane flying.
Let's say like that.
Bryan (12:30):
Okay. So you're basically flying along the crest of the
swell and scooping from there?Yeah. Does the salt affect the
aircraft at all or the watertanks and lines or anything like
that?
Pascal (12:43):
Yeah. Yeah. The salt affect the the plane for sure.
So every time we go in theocean, the technician need to
wash the plane inside of thetank, water tank, and hot side
after the day or few days ofscooping inside of the ocean.
And we need to do a compressorwash as well for the engine.
Oh, yeah. So you're probablyprobably gonna have to do that
(13:04):
when the army arrives since youfly just over the ocean.
Bryan (13:08):
Yep. Yeah. We have rules that basically, if you fly below
a certain altitude, have to gothrough we call it the bird
bath. It's this huge thing thatsprays the plane down. So the
technicians have to do extrastuff as well and it's a lot of
work for sure for them.
Pascal (13:23):
Yeah. It's almost the same thing but we just don't
have the big shower so they
Bryan (13:26):
need to
Pascal (13:27):
have my hose and brush.
Bryan (13:29):
Oh, that's a lot of work. Yeah, it is. So new captains
have to train to scoop from theocean. Do you do that training
during active firefightingmissions? And if not, when?
Pascal (13:39):
No. We don't do that training during fire mission. We
do that on the day which isseems calm, calm day. It's it's
gonna be an alert day for sure,but let's say, there's no active
fire in the area, so we can dotraining. And we try to find not
(14:00):
too rough day just to make surethe new captain or the candidate
can learn from the the trainingand cannot be scared, know.
Bryan (14:07):
Mhmm. Yeah. Because if the conditions are too
difficult, they're not gonnalearn anything.
Pascal (14:12):
Yeah. That's right.
Bryan (14:13):
Yeah. That's the same principles we follow in the air
force with our student training.Like, it's okay to have
conditions be challenging, butthere's a limit where any type
of learning is just not gonnahappen because they're
struggling too much with withthe conditions.
Pascal (14:26):
Exactly.
Bryan (14:28):
Do you eventually say you do it on a calm day after that?
Do you take them out on arougher day?
Pascal (14:33):
No. Because we try to don't do ocean scooping often.
So we just do that on thenecessary.
Bryan (14:41):
Right.
Pascal (14:41):
So it's gonna be one training for for captain, and
after that, it's gonna bereleased.
Bryan (14:47):
Okay.
Pascal (14:47):
And that's it. After that, he's gonna pick up his,
say, his own technique with thebase of technique you can have
in the scoop on the ocean. Soyeah. So it's a one shot deal
for the training.
Bryan (15:02):
Is that because it's hard on the plane or because it's
dangerous? Or why do you do itas little as possible?
Pascal (15:09):
Just to because it's hard on the plane for sure. And,
for maintenance guys as well,they
Bryan (15:14):
Yeah.
Pascal (15:15):
That does bring a lot of work on the after the, the
training. So one is not reallynecessary. We're not gonna go in
the ocean.
Bryan (15:23):
Yeah. For sure. So partly it's just being considerate for
your ground crew.
Pascal (15:27):
Yeah. Exactly.
Bryan (15:27):
Yeah. What performance challenges do you face when
taking off full from Santa Feconsidering the weight of fuel
and water? Because you're takingoff with full water from Santa
Fe. Right?
Pascal (15:37):
Yeah. In Los Angeles, we're taking off from Van Nuys
with 5,000 pound of fuel. We'regonna be able to scoop from
Santa Fe, I'll say almost fullof water. Depend of the wind and
the temperature, of course, and,you know, the situation, the
waiting time you're gonna gonnado before scooping. Because when
we're taking off from Van Nuys,we're taking off with water just
(16:00):
like we said before, I guess.
So we're gonna head to the firedirectly from the first takeoff.
And after that, we're gonnahold, do all the procedure to
get in the fire, and after that,getting to the Santa Fe to,
holding kind of a recon flight,just like I said, to see all the
(16:20):
hazard to make sure there's nopeople in the lake Yeah. Like on
a canoe or something like that.So and after that, we're gonna
scoop. So that's gonna burnquite a bit of fuel.
We're gonna be able to scoopalmost full full load of waters.
Bryan (16:35):
Okay. What are the performance challenges like when
you're departing when you'rethat heavy? How does the plane
perform under those conditions?It's quite hot. Right?
Pascal (16:43):
Yeah. Yeah. Far water means mainly hotter days. So,
yeah, it's, when you get offfull of water, it's not gonna
have a big performance on the onthe timeout. So but, the center
field is not that bad becauseyou have just, on one way, you
have a small dam on the at theend, which is maybe like five or
(17:06):
five feet.
So it's pretty easy to clearthat out.
Bryan (17:09):
So You've mentioned that when you're flying in
California, you're always on theedge of performance limits. Can
you give us some examples ofthat?
Pascal (17:17):
Yeah. Just like Santa Fe, if you go on the the hot
day, like, 43 degrees, no winds,that's gonna be really
challenging for the the climbout. Let's say you lose an
engine or something like that,that's gonna be more challenging
for sure. By the time you dropyour water after that's gonna
(17:38):
be, that's not bad. And lastwinter was really the wind
effect was putting us to thelimit of the airplane.
The wind we had, it was reallybumpy and was right at the edge
of the limit of the plane. Yeah.Even for the scoop on the ocean,
three or four feet of waves. Soscooping just on the only the
top with a crosswind. So it wasa left crosswind.
(18:02):
So to me, it was at the edge ofmy capacity to scoop out of the
ocean that day.
Bryan (18:07):
And that's saying something since you're one of
the more experienced pilots aswell. Right?
Pascal (18:12):
I will not say I'm one of the more experienced pilot,
but I'd say let's say that inaverage of you guys.
Bryan (18:19):
Sure. Sure. I like the humility. Just out of curiosity,
what kind of climb rates are youseeing in those conditions when
you're full? And what kind ofclimb rates would you see if you
were to lose an engine?
Pascal (18:34):
When we're full of load, let's say in a 40 degrees light
wind, you're gonna have between305 feet per minute
Bryan (18:46):
Okay.
Pascal (18:47):
Of climb. If you lose an engine, it's gonna be almost
same. I wanna say 300 more mostlikely, at 40 degrees light
wind.
Bryan (18:56):
But that's when you've dumped the water?
Pascal (18:57):
Or Yeah. Yeah. You dumped the water. So the first
action is gonna you're gonnahave to do if you lose an
engine, it's gonna dump thewater. What is challenging in
Los Angeles is if you still ifyou are able to keep the control
of the airplane even with theengine out, you're gonna try to
manage when you're gonna dropthe water because you don't
(19:18):
wanna hurt anybody in the in theground because you're not in the
middle of nowhere.
Bryan (19:22):
Yeah. Yeah. For sure. Because that water comes down
with like a lot of force. Right?
Pascal (19:26):
Yeah. Yeah. So yeah. So that's one of the challenging
parts operating in the cityarea.
Bryan (19:33):
Okay. Could you describe the difficulties posed by
updrafts and downdrafts in thehills of Los Angeles and how you
navigate these conditions? Howdifficult is the terrain itself?
Pascal (19:43):
Yeah. With the hybrid terrain, Montenegro steering,
you have to think about thewind. You have to try to
anticipate the wind directionfor the updraft and downdraft.
It's really challenging whenyou're not used to, but it's
just like going bicycle.Sometime you you get used to and
(20:06):
you don't really think about it,but you do something.
So you take one side of thevalley because you guts feeling
go there. So it just takes time.And after after a while, it just
like kinda come naturally to gonear on a good side.
Bryan (20:22):
You kind of learn to read the terrain and read the winds
and that that sort of thing?
Pascal (20:26):
Yeah. Exactly. You know, with the valley, the wind's
gonna follow the valley and cancan give you a hub draft
somewhere or a long draft. Soyou just have to be aware of
that. Again, after a bit ofwhile, you're gonna know, and
it's gonna be like a kind ofsecond nature to read that.
But it's not to really readbecause you cannot see nothing.
(20:49):
It's just you feel, anticipatewhat's what's gonna coming in
front of you.
Bryan (20:55):
Yeah. Like you said, it's a bit of a gut feeling. Yeah.
Yeah. That makes sense.
I would imagine visibility is achallenge when passing over the
fires. What is it like passingover the fires, and how do you
stay safe at low altitudes whenvisibility drops in the smoke?
Pascal (21:10):
Passing over the fire, it's almost like going inside of
the dryer. You know, can imagineyou going inside the dryer,
putting the dryer on, and put amask in front of your eyes so
you don't see nothing and you goboom, boom, boom, boom, boom. So
Wow. Because it's gonna be bigtemperature change, momentarily
(21:31):
loss of visibility, and you'regonna drop eventually. So that's
gonna go put you higher,lighter, so you're gonna climb
out.
So the most important thing isto keep the wing straight. So
you don't wanna turn because if,you know, let's say you are in
the left turn and you have a hotspot on the right wing, which is
(21:53):
already 30 degrees or 20 degreeson a turn, that can turn you
over. So you don't wanna dothat.
Bryan (22:00):
It'll push that wing further up.
Pascal (22:02):
Yeah. Yeah. So, that's the most important thing. You
keep straight and drop yourwater and go instrument flying
for, let's say, a few seconds,five, ten seconds. Wow.
It depend of the intensity ofthe fire, you know. One of the
baseline is if you don't seethrough, you don't go through.
(22:24):
This is one of the baseline, butsometime you cannot see through
with maybe black smoke orsomething like that. So in Los
Angeles, we don't go throughblack smoke because the
intensity of the fire is reallybigger than what we have in
Canada. But because of the thevegetation is different, you
know.
Mhmm. So but in Canada,sometimes you you lose
(22:47):
everything for, let's say, tenseconds.
Bryan (22:51):
Wow. And you said just during that time you're on
instruments to stay wings level,basically?
Pascal (22:56):
Yeah. That's a that's a way to get out of that. Yeah.
Sometimes you have em embergoing inside of plane as well.
So
Bryan (23:03):
When you fly directly over a fire, this might be a
silly question, but do you feela change in temperature? Like,
can you notice it?
Pascal (23:11):
Yeah. You're gonna feel the hot and you're gonna you're
gonna see the amber or the ownerheard the different temperature
hitting the plane just like acompressor stall on the engine.
So yeah. So you're gonna feel itfor sure.
Bryan (23:28):
Okay. The fires were eventually contained as of the
01/31/2025. How did it feel whenthose fires were finally under
control? Was there a sense ofrelief, a job well done feeling,
or were you just excited to gohome?
Pascal (23:42):
There was a feeling of relief. We all try our best to
make that happen as soon aspossible. But since we have a
plane brought down, we didn't beable to go there, as often as we
would like to. And we've beenassessed to new fire after that
because there was really bigtraffic over there over the
(24:05):
Patilseld Fire and the otherfires. So that was managing to
put us on the new fire response.
But it was certainly a relieffrom all the crew to feel the
the end of those day of tragedyfor sure.
Bryan (24:20):
Yeah. Yeah. I bet. As you know, the c l four fifteen has
been involved in firefighting inCalifornia for decades. What do
you think this aircraft means tothe communities it serves down
there?
Pascal (24:30):
I think the people in community over there, they they
are really glad we're goingthere. It's a means of security
for them, means another tool inthe box for the firefighting
operation over there. So that'swhat I think the the thing. And
I think I tend to think the sameway, another tool in the box,
(24:51):
and that's good.
Bryan (24:52):
Yeah. And I mean, from what you've said, it sounds like
the CL four fifteen beingpurpose built for firefighting
is putting a lot of water perhour on the fire. It's it's a
great plane to have around.
Pascal (25:02):
Yeah. To my mind, it's it's the best airplane or
aircraft or best tool you canhave for initial attack. But
again, you have to use it as itwas designed for, so which is
initial attack. And after that,of course, you have more other
tools to to help. You know, it'sit's it's a big teamwork.
(25:26):
You're gonna have to manage withthat. So and you need to have
all those tools in your box forsure to extinguish the the
fires. So Right. Without anycrew on the ground, you're not
gonna be able to do nothing. Andwithout aerial firefighting, you
the crew on the ground will bein danger.
So there's a really big teamworkfor that.
Bryan (25:49):
Right. Like, I I think we said that in the first episode
that basically the idea is theaerial firefighters are
containing the fire and keepingit under control and the people
on the ground are actuallyputting it out. Right?
Pascal (26:00):
Yep. Exactly.
Bryan (26:01):
Yep. So the right tool at the right time.
Pascal (26:04):
Yep.
Bryan (26:05):
So as we've said, it's been more than a month now since
the LA Fires were contained. Iimagine it was somewhat of an
emotional experience. You talkedabout seeing people trapped on
rooftops, things like that. Haveyou thought about it? Have you
been able to process it, or isit something you just sort of
professionally maintain yourseparation from?
Pascal (26:22):
I try to do separation from that, but for sure,
sometime I'm I'm still thinkingabout it, about the the far the
intensity of the experiencethere. I was just talking this
morning with the other pilot whowas in the plane when he hit the
drone and was like lack ofadrenaline for from his side
(26:42):
when he get back after thePalisade fire and was like, what
happening to me? So you try tokeep your feelings away from
that, but it's hard to do. Soit's we still have some I would
say maybe some stress or somefatigue from from that, And we
(27:05):
just we are about to restart ournew season. So but we have to
put put that on the back of usand looking forward to next
season, the next challenge we'regonna face off.
Bryan (27:17):
Yeah. For sure. It is challenging because when you go
through these intenseexperiences, it takes time
sometimes to process it and forit to rise to the surface. And
you can realize monthsafterwards that, hey, I'm still
carrying a bit of stress fromthis or I'm still feeling some
pretty strong feelings from whatI what I saw or things like
that. So that must be difficultsometimes.
Pascal (27:37):
Yeah. But so far, everybody everybody feels good.
Good. So I can maybe I can talkto you in a in a few months of
from from now, maybe somethinggonna show up. But so for now,
far so good.
Oh, good. I'm glad to hear it.
Bryan (27:52):
What are the key lessons you've learned about risk
management and decision makingin high pressure aerial
firefighting situations?
Pascal (27:59):
The key to me, it's even if it's on the wayward, is
slower is safer. So if you andit's gonna be faster as well. So
if you go slower, you're gonnahave time to see all the the
threats, all the everything. Sothat's gonna be safer in a way,
(28:20):
and it's gonna be moreefficient. So sometime you have
to step back and look at whatyou're gonna do and go forward
after that.
And after you have a plan, it isgonna be more efficient,
Bryan (28:33):
so faster. You know, it's funny. That reminds me of a
expression I used to hear in themilitary sometimes, especially
if I was flying with Americansand it was slow is smooth,
smooth is fast. Yeah. Sobasically, taking your time to
do it right the first time isfaster than rushing and making
big mistakes.
Pascal (28:51):
Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. When you heading to a drop, if
you're not sure to drop to theright place or not sure it's
gonna be the most efficient wayto do it, you should say it,
then you should try another wayor manage something to get the
water the right place.
Bryan (29:09):
Yeah. And it's I imagine that's a crew effort as well. If
anyone has concerns or if anyonehas doubts, that's the time to
speak up.
Pascal (29:17):
Yeah. Exactly. And even with the Elko and everything, so
just make sure the guys who isin charge of the operation know
what you're gonna do and youknow what's gonna what what you
want you to do. So there's nomistakes makes, no danger
involved for the crew on theground or, you know, it's gonna
(29:37):
be more efficient. So that's whythat's why slow is good.
Bryan (29:42):
Yeah. How dangerous is it for the crew on the ground if
they get dropped on?
Pascal (29:47):
The drop on, if it's not let's say the main part of the
drop would be not really bad,but they can feel that's that's
gonna be slippery. On LosAngeles, there's there's no
really big tree except if youare kind of valley or something
like that, so you can break atree. But in Canada, you you can
break a tree. Oh, yeah. A treeor something like that that can
(30:09):
fall on the the firefighterunderground.
So for that that reason, thefirefighter in Canada, they are
farther from our dropping zone,dropping areas. So we're not
really concerned about thatbecause we we still are we still
are concerned about that, butthey're not supposed to be in
(30:31):
the dropping area since in LosAngeles. They are closer from
our dropping zones. So, but theyare easier to see, so we can
manage that safer. So that'sthat's that's one of concern,
but it's not really, if you'renot too low, it's not really
(30:52):
dangerous.
Bryan (30:53):
Yeah. It sounds like there's ways to mitigate it both
in Los Angeles and in Quebec.
Pascal (30:57):
Yeah. Yeah.
Bryan (30:58):
Of course. What would you say was the most memorable
moment for you while you werefighting these fires?
Pascal (31:05):
The end of the first mission after the first two hour
and a half. I was I was reallysatisfied about the the first
mission at two hour and a half,and was quite a really good
working with the helico in placefrom the helico in was really
efficient for my mind. So, yeah,that was that was pretty good.
(31:26):
And I think my the other crew onthe other plane was taking the
same ways. So, yeah, I think itwould be the the end of the
first two hour and a half.
Bryan (31:37):
Yeah. Just knowing that you had a good system in place
and that you guys were gonna beable to fight the fires with the
help of the HELCO.
Pascal (31:44):
Yeah. Exactly. And, you know, the say, the most
efficient way we can we can doit on that fire. So we were
protecting an area with, youknow, people and home. So it was
Bryan (31:59):
effective. Did you have any scary moments while fighting
the fires?
Pascal (32:05):
Not really because you don't have time to think about
that, you know. So you just doyour best you can do and you
don't have time to think really.So you do your turn, you push a
pedal, and you're heading backto the ocean. You do your best
with the crosswind you have andscoop heading back to the
(32:25):
dropping zone, drop and turn 40degrees, 45 degrees, and then
back to the ocean and do itagain. So now you There's no
time.
I will not say any no. There'sno time for for that. Maybe
maybe after that, but not notduring the flight.
Bryan (32:42):
Did you find that there was some stress in between
flights at all?
Pascal (32:45):
Maybe there was stress with the when we on the second
mission, we we had to go getwater over the Castaic Lake, so
that would make us crossing toMountain Ridge. And with the
wind we have that day was reallybumpy. So after after the day
(33:06):
when we spoke together, we wewere kind of a stress with the
the turbulence we get overthere.
Bryan (33:16):
Yeah. How intense was that turbulence?
Pascal (33:19):
It was severe turbulence and, you know, we had the the
caution line coming out for theengine, know, high pressure Oh,
wow. Because the c l fourfifteen is not is not authorized
for negative g, so we can cannotdo, like, atherotic flight with
(33:40):
that. So there's no there's onlyone oil pump, so there's no
there's no way to manage thenegative g on the oil system. So
they have moved to the blank ofa master cushion for the oil
pressure, but there was likemaybe quarter or or something
like that, just enough totrigger the master cushion and
(34:02):
you are not able to see what'swhat's going on. So but it was
happening maybe one out of twotimes crossing the the ridge.
So we decided to go higher tocross the ridge to avoid that
situation. But even higher waswas really rough.
Bryan (34:21):
So it was so rough that it was giving you guys negative
g and that was tripping the oilpressure master caution?
Pascal (34:29):
Yep. Wow. Yeah. That was as rough as that.
Bryan (34:32):
That's pretty intense.
Pascal (34:34):
Yeah. Yeah. So we have a five points harness to be tied
in the seat and everythingeverything was tied to the hips
and Yeah. Try to stay in theseat.
Bryan (34:46):
Yeah. No kidding. It's not fun getting thrown around
like that.
Pascal (34:50):
No. No. No. Not really. Not really.
Bryan (34:53):
So it's likely these kinds of fires are going to
become more common. What do youthink needs to change in order
to make communities moreresilient in the face of this
kind of event?
Pascal (35:02):
Yeah. In my mind, it's gonna be maybe more often. I
hope would be not like as bad aswhat we get last winter. But
with what we saw in the season02/23 in Canada and last winter
in California, the water in theworld would be looks like going
drier and unstable. So that'sgonna bring a situation like
(35:27):
that.
So I don't know what what to dowith with that, like, just like
everybody, I think.
Bryan (35:33):
Yeah. It's a big question.
Pascal (35:34):
Yeah. Yeah. It's pretty big. It's it's probably people
should be ready to have a goaway bag or something like that,
you know, when when you are inthe area in danger of that, like
like in Los Angeles in thevicinity of a brush or wall
terrains. So that would be thebest the best way.
(35:57):
Just try to keep yourself safeand your family. And I don't
think there's nothing you can doagainst the element at the at
the end. So you can do yourbest, but the element will win.
Bryan (36:12):
Yeah. That's good advice though, to have a go bag ready
to go if you're living in anarea that's prone to forest
fires or brush fires. That's areally good thought. Yeah. So
let's talk about firefighting inQuebec.
First of all, you've mentionedthe twenty twenty two, twenty
three season being prettyintense. Can you just tell us a
little bit about that?
Pascal (36:32):
Yeah. There was in Quebec, it was the biggest
season we ever had. So and itwas my first season as a chief
pilot, so that was a reallychallenging season for me. And,
yeah, we we almost every pilotin the service enquiry martial
almost hit the the trigger ofthe the duty, hours duty,
(36:56):
monthly hours.
Bryan (36:58):
Oh, the maximum duty hours?
Pascal (36:59):
Yeah. The maximum duty hours. So it never happened
before. It happened with onegroup, but not with all the
pilots. So that was challengingto try to manage that.
And the fire was closed fromfrom the city in Quebec. So this
isn't we we are not used to inin Quebec. Normally, the fire
(37:22):
happened quite a bit far of thefrom from the city. Sometime we
have one fire from close by acity, but it's pretty rare that
we have more than one. So butAnna 2023 was every fire was
almost closed from a cityreserve.
So that was really intense. Doesthat
Bryan (37:45):
just raise the stakes for you guys, or does it also make
it more challenging?
Pascal (37:50):
It was making more challenging, you know, to to be
in the air and, you know, try todo our best. But sometimes, you
know, it's frustrating when yousee the fire there and you don't
have the ability to go becauseyour time x are for the day, you
don't have crew, so you haveplane on the ground. This is
(38:12):
more on the management side, butthere was the reality what we
are facing on the 2023. So wehave plane down from lack of
crew. So that was pretty roughto manage that and try to make a
move with the crew to put theplane back in the air, doing a
training during the morning examat, like, noon and doing the
(38:37):
fire mission in the afternoon.
Wow. So that was a really longday for the training department
and everybody was involved withall of that, the management
team. So it was a long day.
Bryan (38:49):
Yeah. That sounds like long intense days.
Pascal (38:52):
Yeah. It was.
Bryan (38:53):
Yeah. The summer firefighting season is only a
few months away. What will thatlook like for you and how are
you preparing for what's ahead?
Pascal (39:01):
Yeah. The it's it's almost there for sure. We start
the training, like, pretty soon,next Friday. So there's lots of
training to do. There's newhiring pilots.
We're still looking for pilots,by the way, if somebody is wanna
come. And yes. So it's gonna betraining, training, training for
(39:27):
the next, let's say, five, sixweek for us and check out from
for the new hiring pilots. Andafter that, it's gonna be gonna
be back in the in thepreparation for the Los Angeles
County. Yeah.
So lots of training simulator inthe in flights.
Bryan (39:50):
Yeah. And then you do it all again?
Pascal (39:52):
Yeah. And paperwork and deployment to Los Angeles again
at the in the falls. And justcross finger, this is gonna be a
slow season this year.
Bryan (40:02):
Yeah. No kidding. Because you said, what, over a hundred
days away as a aerialfirefighter every year?
Pascal (40:08):
Yeah. The the pilots normally do in Quebec, the the
what what the guy is doing isaround sixty five to seventy
five days, out on the scheduleof, fifteen days on, three days
off. And after that, on top ofthat, you have to have the, one
rotation in Los Angeles, whichis almost thirty days. So it's
(40:30):
closed by one hundred days perpilot out of the of home.
Bryan (40:35):
Do people find that's tough on their family life?
Pascal (40:39):
Yes. Yes. It certainly needs a good synergy in the with
the family and with the kids forfor body have kids and wife.
Yeah. It's it's tough.
Last winter was pretty tough forall all the pilot involved in
the situation of Los Angeles forsure. Yeah. Because the season
(41:01):
extend until the February, sothat was really very long for
them.
Bryan (41:07):
Yeah. That is a long one.
Pascal (41:09):
Yeah. I've done, I think, hundred and ten days in
Los Angeles, last winter. Sothat was that was long. That's
tough. And yeah.
And it's it is on top of that,have to put the the days in
Quebec out of out of home. So
Bryan (41:26):
So how do you manage that with your family?
Pascal (41:29):
Just try to don't have my doggy bag on the outside of
the house when I get back, youknow. So yeah. But what I doing,
it's just try to be when I amhome, I'm just trying to be with
the family and try to don't workor don't think about work, which
(41:55):
is pretty rough for me. Yeah. Sobecause I'm still in management,
so the the the phone ring allover the time.
So that's pretty tough, butthat's my goal. And just
sometime we just go out in theforest and where there where
there's no single andeverything. So there's really
(42:17):
family times.
Bryan (42:18):
Yeah. Yeah. Making sure you get that dedicated family
time in when you're not working.
Pascal (42:24):
Exactly. Exactly. Just go on a vacancy or something
some some place outside withoutany phone.
Bryan (42:34):
How do firefighting conditions differ in California
and Quebec?
Pascal (42:38):
Yeah. It is different. You know, the the way we get
water over there, it'sdifferent. The territory is
different with the mountain andthe visitation. And the purpose
of the the the way they use thethe the four fifteen in Los
Angeles and in Quebec is isdifferent.
So we're used as initial attackin Los Angeles than what we are
(43:04):
in Quebec. Even if we're stillin the initial attack in a
attack in Quebec, with thebigger terrain to to protect is
is different because sometimesyou have to do an hour, an hour
and a half to go to the theforest. So it's that's still
initial attack. But since wedon't have any enough base to
(43:26):
protect all the all the region,so it's it's hard to to get
there, let's say, like in LosAngeles in five, ten minutes,
twenty minutes. So the goal isto be there in forty five
minutes, but sometime it's notpossible.
Bryan (43:44):
Okay.
Pascal (43:44):
Because there's no there's no airport somewhere. So
gonna have to fly to go thereand that that's it. So that's
that's a different way to do it.
Bryan (43:54):
What are the challenges specific to firefighting in
Quebec?
Pascal (43:58):
One of the challenge in when you get in the, June, the
fire can go really deep in the,land. So you, you're gonna put
water and water and water, andthat's gonna affect the the fire
you're gonna see, the openflames. But you go back for fuel
(44:19):
and you and you're coming backto the incident, and you're
gonna it's gonna be relightingbecause the wind was picking up
or something like that and justhamper some somewhere some place
on the roots and getting out. Sothat's one of the challenge for
sure because with all theterrain we have to protect here,
(44:42):
there's not enough firefighterin the ground. So sometimes you
leave in every year and you say,oh, that's good.
We we get we we've done a goodjob here and there's no no more
fire here. You leave, you get atthe base, fueled up, eat, and
get a call over the same placebecause there's nobody in the
ground. So you have to go back.
Bryan (45:01):
That must be frustrating.
Pascal (45:03):
It is. It is. But this part of the the big terrain to
protect, you know.
Bryan (45:10):
Yeah, for sure.
Pascal (45:11):
Most likely is middle of nowhere. So there's no there's
no issue for the the publicsafety or something like that.
But it's still frustrating.
Bryan (45:19):
Yeah. It's just a loss of forest. Yeah. Yeah. But I mean,
like you said, Quebec is huge.
Right? So you can't expect like,there's only so many people, so
many ground crews, and Quebec isenormous. So those are the
things you're gonna run into.
Pascal (45:34):
Exactly. Just like other provinces and, you know, BC is
like that as well. You youcannot have people all over the
place ready to fight the fire,so
Bryan (45:47):
Yeah. Where is it easier to get water for firefighting
and why?
Pascal (45:52):
I would say on the lake for sure. On a big lake. So
Quebec? Quebec Quebec is prettygood because we have really lots
of lake. There's many, manylakes.
So more lakes you have, morechance you you you have to have
a good line on the one closerthe incidents. So, yeah, I would
(46:15):
say close by lots of watersource.
Bryan (46:20):
Overall, which theater is more challenging when it comes
to firefighting, Los Angeles orQuebec, and why?
Pascal (46:26):
Definitely more challenging to fight fire in the
Los Angeles because it's middleof a city. There's a camera all
over the place filming you withthe, like, a chopper over the
the TFR with a big camera zoomin zoom in on you so you have
(46:47):
more pressure to don't miss thedrop. And, yeah, so there's and
it's middle of the just like thePalestinian fire was right in
the neighborhoods, so withpeople on the ground. So it's
definitely more challenging inin California.
Bryan (47:05):
Okay. Alright. We're gonna wrap it up with a few
final questions. Firefighting isemotionally and physically
difficult. What is one thing youdo to stay ready to do your job?
Pascal (47:16):
Just try to have a good rest and, stay in shape. So,
have a walk, running, or,anything you can can do to stay
in shape. But the the main goalis have the good good rest, good
sleep, and be ready for the nextday.
Bryan (47:37):
Yeah. I'm not surprised to hear that answer, especially
with the nature of what you guysdo. It's just you're going every
day. Right? Or you're eithergoing or you're on standby.
So you pretty much have to beready all the time. So rest
would be crucial.
Pascal (47:49):
Exactly. Exactly. Good food as well.
Bryan (47:53):
Yeah. Do you have extensive experience in
firefighting and flying ingeneral? What do you think makes
a great firefighting pilot?
Pascal (48:01):
I think it's it's combination of knowledge,
experience. You need to bepretty calm even if it's really
stressful, you and you wannarush the the thing, you wanna go
fast, but you need to stay calmin that and, put the priority in
(48:24):
a a good place, you know. So Ithink you you need to manage
everything of that and, forsure, in beginning, be open
minded to, learn the good way todo it. So, yeah, I think think
about that. So knowledge andopen mind to learning the way to
(48:47):
do it.
Because even if you're a goodpilot on the something else we
had a fighter jet pilot beforecoming here, and there was,
like, oof, that's that'ssomething. So, and I'm pretty
sure I'm going on a fighter jet.I'm gonna be, oof, that's
something. So, know, it's aspecific job. So, you have even
if you have a big experience onback of on your background, you
(49:11):
have to stay open mind to, learnthe way you you can do it safer
and so yeah.
That's about it.
Bryan (49:20):
So arrive humble and ready to learn.
Pascal (49:23):
Yep.
Bryan (49:24):
Yep. If you were talking to a young pilot today who
wanted to get into aerialfirefighting, what advice would
you give to them?
Pascal (49:32):
Would give it to them. Be ready to be to leave home.
Yeah. So be be be ready to beaway from home. And that's a
better job you can have in mymind.
It's it's pretty good. It'schallenging. So you have a sense
of giving back to the communityas well. So it's one of the best
(49:55):
job in my mind, but it'scertainly tough to get there.
It's tough to get the experienceto get there, but it's worth it.
It's worth it. So Awesome.
Bryan (50:09):
Okay, Pascal. That does it for our chat today on aerial
firefighting and the fires in LACounty. It was such a pleasure
to hear your story, and thankyou for the work you do and for
being on the show.
Pascal (50:18):
My pleasure. Thank you.
Bryan (50:20):
Alright. Fly safe.
Pascal (50:21):
Thank you.
Bryan (50:23):
Alright. That wraps up our chat with Pascal Duclaud on
aerial firefighting in LA andQuebec. For our next episode, we
have a very special guestcoming. We are proud to announce
we will be interviewinglieutenant general Eric Kenny,
current commander of the RoyalCanadian Air Force. Do you have
any questions or comments aboutanything you've heard in this
show?
Would you or someone you knowmake a great guest, or do you
(50:44):
have a great idea for a show?You can reach out to us at the
pilot project podcast at Gmaildot com or on all social media
at at pod pilot project. And besure to check out that social
media for lots of great videosof our RCAF aircraft. As always,
we'd like to thank you fortuning in and ask for your help
with the big three. That's likeand follow us on social media,
share with your friends, andfollow and rate us five stars
(51:06):
wherever you get your podcasts.
That's all for now. Thanks forlistening. Keep the blue side
up. See you.
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