What does it feel like to deploy as the Commander of Task Force Jerusalem in support of OP PROTEUS in the West Bank? What does it take to take over various commands in the Tactical Helicopter force? What goes into developing a defence policy update like "Our North Strong and Free" (ONSAF)? Today we sit down for part 2 of our chat with Major-General Jeannot Boucher, an experienced helicopter pilot with over 3000 flight hours and the current Chief of Staff Chief Professional Conduct and Culture (COS CPCC). We'll talk about his early command roles and his work with OP PROTEUS as well as his work on ONSAF.
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Bryan (00:28):
Hey, everybody. It's your host, Brian Morrison here with
our standard RCAF senior officerpre episode commentary. We live
in a twenty four hour newscycle, and comments can be very
quickly overtaken by events. Soto put things in perspective,
this interview was recorded inearly January.
Intro/Outro (00:46):
Fuel and ignition switches on RPM switches. Set TV
switches. Normal doors andhatches.
Jeannot (00:52):
Closed lay
Intro/Outro (00:53):
down. Strobe light On. Research check-in. Complete
clear left. Engineer.
Start number two. Turning two.Wing three one zero ten. Pilot
project broadcast. Cleartakeoff.
Runway three one left.
Bryan (01:14):
Alright. We're ready for departure here at the pilot
project podcast, the best sourcefor stories and advice from RCAF
and Mission Aviation Pilotsbrought to you by Sky's
Magazine. Today, we're back forpart two of our chat with
Janneau Boucher, current chiefof staff, chief professional
conduct and culture. Janneau,welcome back, and thanks for
being here today.
Jeannot (01:32):
Hey. Thanks, Brian. I'm happy to be back.
Bryan (01:34):
Listeners can check out part one to hear about Geno's
early days as well as his timein Afghanistan. Today, we'll be
talking about some of his earlycommand roles, his time as
commander of task forceJerusalem in support of Op
Proteus in the West Bank, aswell as his work developing our
North strong and free. So we'regonna move into talking now
about some of your commandappointments in international
(01:56):
roles. How did your flighttraining and operational
experiences prepare you forcommand in the RCAF?
Jeannot (02:02):
I talked about it earlier a bit. I think
discipline, like the five p's,the the importance of
preparation, the like,discipline and how you approach.
That was was huge. Myunderstanding of teamwork and
the importance of trust andmaking sure everybody has an
important role in the team,probably the importance of
balancing theory withexperience. Like Afghanistan,
(02:24):
you can be in Ottawa and I'm inOttawa now and think you
understand, but the people thatare actually living it are the
ones that really understand andwe need to just find that sweet
spot.
It's in the middle but it'sprobably leaning on the side of
experience more than theory andI would say humility. Like my
flight training, failure duringflight training, mistakes on
(02:46):
operations, all these thingsmade me, I like to think humble
and appreciate the challenge andthe responsibility of command.
And I learned that leadershipwas not about being the smartest
person at the unit. It was aboutmaking everybody around me
better and surrounding myselfwith with smart people.
Bryan (03:06):
Yeah. I like that. I also like what you said about kind of
finding that balance between theboots on the ground perspective
and the Ottawa perspectivebecause they're both definitely
important. Like, if it was allthe theory, we all know that
theory is great until it meetsreal world. Right?
Like that whole that whole thingabout no plan survives first
contact with the enemy. But atthe same time, if all you're
(03:28):
going with is the boots on theground perspective, you lose the
big picture and you might missout on some of the kind of
greater significant stuffthat'll kind of pass you right
by. So I like that.
Jeannot (03:39):
Yeah. And I'll tell you my time in Afghanistan working
with Ottawa as we were figuringit out, it was so many lessons
learned there on the concept ofrisk. Because when you're flying
in Canada and you're training,you know, it's normal. There's a
certain level of risk, but youhave to balance that
airworthiness risk withoperational risk. So when you're
(04:01):
landing in a landing zone inAfghanistan where you can't stay
on the ground for more than oneminute and you have to take off
with 40 troops in the back of aChinook, you can't wait for them
to have all their seat belts.
So the idea of having a seatbelt is a safety concern, but
you have to balance that withthe real life operational risks.
And though that's a really keylesson I learned there.
Bryan (04:22):
Well, you're basically balancing the risk of a seat
belt versus an RPG or small armsor something like that, right?
Jeannot (04:29):
But to people in Ottawa that have not flown there yet,
them they see, you know, theyhear a story that people are
taking off without seat belts,which is not inaccurate. But
again, we just need, I wouldjust tell people again, whatever
you decide in life or in a staffjob, just try to make sure
you're you're always going thatextra mile and making sure
(04:51):
you're talking to people thatare actually doing the job and
understand their perspective.
Bryan (04:56):
So you were the commanding officer or a CO of
four thirty tactical helicoptersquadron from 02/2013 to
02/2015. How did it feel to betaking command of an operational
tac health squadron, and did youfeel prepared?
Jeannot (05:08):
Well, was amazing. I think commanding officer or that
level is like the best job ofyour career. I think you apply
everything you learn to datewith a team of about, you know,
in the air force two or 300 abit bitter on the army, but it's
the size of a team you can getto to know everybody. So I was I
was a bit nervous, but I waskind of excited. And and
honestly, I yeah.
(05:29):
I feel I I feel I was prepared,but there's always a steep
learning curve every time youmove up in rank or every time
you take command at a differentlevel.
Bryan (05:39):
What was the greatest challenge you faced while in
command of four thirty Squadron?
Jeannot (05:43):
It was one of experience and a focus on
rebuilding. I didn't expectthat. When I deployed in
02/2009, we had an extremelyexperienced unit. I went back to
be the CO four years later. Thelevel of experience was quite
low and we were rebuilding.
So I learned that every commandhas its own unique challenges.
(06:03):
You kind of need to listen, youneed to care, you need to try to
understand and you need to kindof focus on the challenge you
have, which was to me rebuildingthe unit, rebuilding the
experience. And at that time wewere also shifting from
Afghanistan to a return toconventional operations, we
haven't hadn't done or trainedin several years.
Bryan (06:24):
So what led to that situation that there was a need
to rebuild? Have there just beena bunch of people who had
retired or people had beenpromoted out or what had led to
that?
Jeannot (06:34):
Several things, but there was a point where there's
a certain age group where we hadless pilots in the CAF combined
with the fact there's a lot ofpeople when they came back from
Afghanistan, like it was hardfor them to get motivated after
you've gone through that levelof training, that experience,
that flying. There's quite a fewpeople that released at the
time. Several of them came backafter but I was in a period of
(06:57):
time where the numbers werelower, the experience level was
lower. You had a lot of veryjunior people, you still had a
lot of experience at the majorlieutenant colonel level but
kinda your senior captains werewere were few.
Bryan (07:11):
Okay. That makes sense. What was the biggest lesson you
learned from your time as a CO?
Jeannot (07:17):
I think as a CO, it's again the importance of kind of
the diversity of perspectivesbecause then you're at the stage
where you're actually makingdecisions. You have pilots, you
understand the pilot stuff quitewell, but logistics,
maintenance, the whole adminpiece. I had like 75 reservists
there. So yeah, I kind oflearned the importance of that.
(07:42):
The second one I learned waslike, I think the importance of
setting conditions because whenyou get to that level of being
commanding officer, it's aboutsetting conditions.
Sometimes the impact of yourleadership or what you're doing
will only be felt in the nexttwo or three years. So we are at
a level right now where you'renot always going to get kind of
(08:02):
an instant reward or return forwhat you're doing. You kind of
live with what the previous CEOput in place and you set the
conditions for your successor,if that makes sense.
Bryan (08:11):
Yeah. So you're saying that basically you're sort of
setting things up to be yourvision of where the squadron
needs to go, but it's going totake some time for those
conditions to actually bearfruit and for that to actually
happen with the squadron.
Jeannot (08:25):
Yeah. In our case, we're moving back to
conventional warfare. So again,different, different flying,
different type of operations.And then you're rebuilding your
young air crew with thatmindset. And you know, as a
pilot, takes a year or twobefore then you become an
aircraft commander and a sectionlead.
So it takes a few years to seeif you've done the right thing
(08:47):
and if things will pay off.
Bryan (08:49):
How difficult was that coming back and basically having
trained for asymmetric warfarein Afghanistan to face more of
an insurgency type threat andthen pivoting to train for
conventional warfare? Thatsounds like a huge change.
Jeannot (09:05):
It was. And I had to lean a lot on on my reservists
because four thirty were quiteprivileged, I had about 200
Regforce people, but 75reservists, a lot of them very
experienced. So I had to lean onthem to understand how they used
to do things in the 80s and 90sand then kind of distill those
(09:25):
key lessons and instill thoseobviously with the new mindset,
with the new technology and thenew way we do things. That's how
we got there. But again, peopleare amazing.
You get out the old doctrine,you kind of challenge your
junior leaders with it, you letthem go and what they come up
with is amazing. So when we didthose maple resolve out in
(09:46):
Wainwright or Rafael Blanche inQuebec City there in 2015, I was
just amazed by people. We weretalking about combat arms people
earlier. Those combat armspeople had those basic skills,
that strong foundation that wecould use in order to kind of
protect our forward armrefueling point or protect our
camp when we're deployed in thefield with our helicopters.
Bryan (10:08):
It still sounds like a massive challenge, but it sounds
like you had some really goodresources to work with.
Jeannot (10:14):
You never have enough resources, but it's about making
no, but you don't. But it'salways about making the most of
what you have. And that'sanother lesson as well. Like,
you will never have enoughresources. You'll never have
everything you need, but liketrue leaders make the most of
what they have.
It doesn't mean you don't informor be very vocal about what you
(10:34):
need but there's a differencebetween being vocal and not
doing anything and being vocalabout what you need but really
maximizing the impact you havewith the resources you have.
Bryan (10:44):
Oh, for sure. And if there's one thing I learned in
my time in the military, you'llnever have the ideal setup.
You'll never have exactly theideal equipment, exactly the
ideal amount of people. It'sjust the nature of the business.
We're trying to do a lot ofthings and you have what you
have and then you go and make itwork.
Jeannot (11:03):
You know, we deployed to Afghanistan with the Griffin
and and and we came up with theconcept of door gunners. But in
an insurgency warfare, havingdoor guns M134s on both sides
with experienced army guys asdoor gunners and flight
engineers, we were hugelyeffective in the role we did
there. You know, some leaderswould have said we can't deploy,
(11:25):
we don't have the right aircraftas Canadians, we decided to
deploy and we really, really hadan impact I'm quite proud of for
the period of time we werethere.
Bryan (11:35):
Yeah, that's honestly the Griffon in Afghanistan is the
perfect example of what I wassaying. Like, it's an aircraft
that many people would say,well, it was gonna face
significant challenges justgiven the altitude that
Afghanistan is at and thetemperatures and just the the
limits of what the Griffin cando. But from what I've heard,
the Griffin was extremelycapable in the way that we
(11:56):
employed it and was, again, fromwhat I've heard, quite feared by
the Taliban.
Jeannot (12:03):
Yes. I I I think it was. And and again, we tend to
focus on platforms a lot a lotand don't focus as much on the
quality of our pilots. When wegot there, it was only other
country special forces that flewin what they call black illum
when it was too dark. We showedup as Canadians.
We're used to flying low. We'reused to flying when it's really
(12:24):
dark. We started operating at aperiod of time where some other
conventional forces were not. Sotherefore we were highly in
demand. I mean, the competencewe talked about of our NCOs, of
our maintainers were such, Ithink we had 100% serviceability
the whole time.
So again, if we focus ondeveloping amazing people, then
(12:45):
they'll do amazing things withtechnology we have. Once again,
we need to get the right things,and we'll probably talk about
that later.
Bryan (12:51):
Oh, for sure. Your time as a wing commander was spent in
command of one wing from 02/2016to 02/2018, putting you at the
head of tactical helicopteraviation. How did you feel your
time in Afghanistan and as theCEO of four thirty Squadron had
prepared you for this position?
Jeannot (13:07):
I think it I think it well, the time in Afghanistan in
04/30 definitely helped. Like, Iunderstood the wing and then
that was obviously that wasobviously quite good. But I took
over on very short notice onJune notice because of very kind
of challenging circumstances andI was only 40 at the time so I
was quite young. And I rememberlike the day I took over, the
(13:30):
commander of the division wasthere to oversee the parade and
asked me if he could have myoffice because commander of the
air force wanted to talk to him.Then we were supposed to talk to
our commanding officers in theafternoon.
And when he came out of there,he says, he brought me in the
office and told me the commanderof the air force just asked him
to make sure we were looking andgoing to be ready to deploy to
Mali. At the time we werealready taken over for four
(13:54):
twenty seven Squadron in Erbil,Iraq. And then I was asked how
we could even support Mali atthe same time. So that afternoon
meeting kind of became myinitial commander's intent and
my family was moving our houseat the time. And I remember
being in a hotel room right inmy DNG to my COs so we could
(14:15):
start planning how we were goingto do that.
Bryan (14:17):
Sorry, what's a DNG?
Jeannot (14:18):
Direction and guidance and intent. So basically me
sitting there and talking to mywing leadership to say, for this
to work, we're going to go intoherbal Iraq and do it this way.
And we're going to prepare to goto Mali this way. But then, you
know, then once again, justtrust our amazing people to
figure out the how.
Bryan (14:38):
And as we're talking about this, we're talking a lot
about tac aviation. We'retalking about one wing. Can you
just quickly explain what onewing is and kind of what the
role is?
Jeannot (14:47):
Yeah. One Wing, we call it tactical aviation, but it's
basically what a lot of othercountries call army aviation.
But instead of being part of thearmy, we're part of the air
force. And our key roles arerecce, mobility, and firepower.
And that's what we bring, Iguess, to the army and to
everything we do.
In Canada, we're part of the airforce, also quite agile. So we
(15:10):
obviously play a utility rolewithin the country or outside
the country for disasterassistance, non combatant
evacuation, floods, fires, andthings like that. But the
primary role of tacticalaviation is recce mobility and
firepower in support of thearmy.
Bryan (15:27):
Right. And then one wing being the the head of tactical
aviation.
Jeannot (15:32):
Yeah. So the commander one wing is the senior tactical
aviator and and and sits at armycouncil with the the Canadian
army as the aviation adviser tothe commander of the army.
Bryan (15:43):
And while speaking of that, as you've said, part of
your role as one wing commanderwas sitting in the Canadian Army
Council with the commander ofthe army and all the divisional
commanders. Can you explain yourrole on this council and how it
felt to be a representative ofthe air force in an army
setting?
Jeannot (15:59):
Yeah. So army council is basically chaired by the
commander of the army. He's gotall his division commanders and
senior army leadership, and theydiscuss and decide on the future
of the army. It's quite a trueprivilege to sit on that
council. I got to sit on it forfour years, two years as a wing
commander, two years ascommander of first Candive
headquarters.
So you meet about four or fivetimes a year. It's just an
(16:23):
amazing learning experiencebecause the, you know, the the
army treats you like one oftheirs and they give you full
access. So it's
Intro/Outro (16:31):
tremendous
Jeannot (16:32):
learning experience, but also build relationships
that served me for the remainderof my career.
Bryan (16:38):
What would you say was the biggest area you experienced
growth in as a result of thatposition?
Jeannot (16:42):
The risk is sounding a bit repetitive, but together
we're stronger like we are. Andthen, you know, we had lived
through the Afghanistan days,but it's, you know, we talked
earlier about cross pollination.So bringing an Air Force
perspective to the Army, butalso understanding the Army and
really respecting the challengethey have. So to me, like
(17:03):
diversity of thought andperspective is just hugely
powerful and necessary in theworld we live in. I think again,
all parts of the CAF are amazingand sometimes we don't know the
other parts and I don't think weappreciate them enough.
The more we can work jointly orcollectively and get to know
each other, the more that trustand respect builds. And I guess
(17:24):
the more effective we are as aas a CAF where whatever job we
do.
Bryan (17:30):
You mentioned they're getting to know the different
parts of the CAF. What was thebiggest thing that you came
appreciate when working with thearmy? Like, what did you really
appreciate about them?
Jeannot (17:40):
I I just think it's it's their reality and and their
challenges. Right? Like, I mean,the army is the army is really
about people. I think we're allabout people, but the army is
the army is really about people.At the time, I think it was well
led, well trained, well equippedwas the model they were using.
But again, it's just reallyabout leadership. When we talk
(18:02):
about unlimited liability, Imean, you can do any operation
you want, but at one point, ifyou're going to control an area
of operations or whatever, youneed boots on the ground. So
again, I think I already had avery high level of respect
because of the time inAfghanistan, but that just
helped me understand some of thegreater details.
Bryan (18:22):
You mentioned unlimited liability. Can you explain that?
Jeannot (18:25):
Well, basically, a CAF member, you can be put in harm's
way to the point, I guess, oflosing your life in order to
achieve the mission. And I thinkagain, it's already been fifteen
years, so I assume some youngpeople were not part of that,
but we definitely went throughthat in Afghanistan. Then when
(18:46):
we're moving back toconventional operations, it
raises that thinking to a wholenew level because the types of
operations you're talking about,we wouldn't be losing just a
couple people any given day orany given week. You're talking
about casualties at a muchhigher level.
Bryan (19:01):
In a conventional war, you mean? Yeah. Yeah.
Absolutely. That's something forsure, like watching the fighting
in Ukraine and thinking aboutthe casualty levels that are
being suffered there.
I mean, it's in the hundreds ofthousands at this point. You put
that into perspective for sureof the kinds of casualties that
Canada or one of our allieswould suffer in a conventional
(19:22):
war. It's it's hard to picture.
Jeannot (19:24):
We talk about ethics and values. Right? We have three
principles and five values butour three principles are respect
the dignity of all people andrespecting the dignity of all
people is obviously all our CAFmembers but I would say up to
the enemy. I mean like fightinga war is not a cool thing,
right? Like cool is not the wordthat comes to mind.
The second one is obey lawfulauthority. So again, you can be
(19:47):
told to do something. When wetalk about unlimited liability,
I mean, you can be put in theface of harm. And the third one
is like serve your countrybefore self. And and I think as
CAF members, those thoseprinciples really ring true to
me.
Bryan (20:03):
Mhmm. For sure. So your next position was chief of staff
of First Canadian division. Sowhen I first heard this, you
actually had to clarify with mebecause I thought it was the
First Canadian Air division,which is here in Winnipeg. But,
no, this is a joint division,and I think you were potentially
the first air force member to bein command of it.
(20:25):
So what special challenges didyou face as an air force officer
commanding first Canadiandivision?
Jeannot (20:30):
Yeah. First Canadian division's a yeah. Joint
division commanded by a twostar, and there's the the the
chief of staff operations as anair force colonel, and then the
chief of of staff support is anarmy colonel. When I arrived
there is when NATO Mission Iraqstarted, so the commander got
sent there. Then at the time,Commander CJOG General Hulo
(20:51):
appointed me as the interimcommander, which ended up being
for a period of eighteen ortwenty months.
I think the biggest challenge, Iwas one of several division
commanders under the AlliedRapid Reaction Corps. So we
train with that NATO Corps ledby a three star. So me going on
(21:14):
exercises or even some of thetrips with basically all army
two stars, Italy, Poland, UK,Americans and just being an air
force colonel there was quiteintimidating. And that's where I
learned or reinforced a veryimportant lesson of surrounding
yourself with very smart people.Jim Davis, Colonel Jim Davis was
(21:38):
an Army Reserve colonel withextensive experience and he kind
of became, I would say, one ofmy key advisors to kind of help
me bridge my knowledge gap.
Bryan (21:48):
So you mentioned sorry. A rapid reaction force. Is that
the term?
Jeannot (21:54):
Rapid reaction core.
Bryan (21:55):
Okay.
Jeannot (21:56):
NATO has the allied rapid reaction core and that's
in The UK and it's commanded byUK Three star there. We train.
So there's a UK division,there's an American division and
there's a UK, American AndCanadian Division. And then
there's other people, but it'sbasically a function of training
and getting ready in the eventNATO would have to deploy at
(22:19):
that level. But a core isobviously like a very big
formation.
Bryan (22:23):
How many people are in a core?
Jeannot (22:25):
Upwards of a hundred thousand.
Bryan (22:27):
Oh, wow. That's crazy. Yeah. That must have been kind
of intimidating to be working onthat level.
Jeannot (22:34):
It was, but again, it it's kind of a learning
experience. People are Peopleare patient if you work hard and
you learn, I guess you learnevery step of the way and you
ask lots of questions. I thinkpeople react well if you're
genuine and authentic. Workingreally hard, reading, asking
(22:55):
questions to understand, andbeing prepared. Right?
Like, at least in an exercise,you can always be prepared. So I
I worked through it and it was ahugely rewarding experience.
Bryan (23:06):
Back to the first Canadian division, did you find
that your time in Afghanistangave you some buy in from army
folks?
Jeannot (23:14):
Yeah. For sure. I mean, the basic trust was there, as
you said, from the Afghanistandays as well as sitting at army
councils. So, yeah, I had thattrust going into the division
obviously as a new member there.Obviously army guys look at you
because culturally we'redifferent, The way we lead is
(23:35):
different.
I had comments of people tellingme, You know, at first we
thought that was kind of weird,but we got to understand your
style and we really like it. Soagain, it was a fascinating
experience for me to kind ofgain that trust from army
officers that look at you alittle bit like the Not the
outsider, but obviously somebodythat comes in with a different
(23:57):
style and a differentperspective.
Bryan (23:59):
Well, I mean, it is a big change, right? Like I said,
potentially, obviously we'd haveto look and double check, but
potentially the first air forcemember to be in command of the
division. A big change for thepeople who work for that
division to have an air forcemember in charge.
Jeannot (24:15):
Yeah. Well, for them, I mean, it's it's a you know, they
wanna be ready for operations.They wanna be led effectively. I
remember my whole old hockeycoach teaching in his school of
life that people don't care howmuch you know until they know
how much you care. And to me,I've always tried to use that
approach, which is reallygenuinely care about people and
(24:37):
again, a relationship with themand kind of be vulnerable.
So if you're making mistakes,you're admitting them but you're
getting up and you keep fightingright away. Like you don't get
to complain, you just get up andthen you learn and you show them
that you're learning every stepof the way. I think when you do
that, you kind of gain respect.And then obviously after a few
(24:58):
months, I mean, we're allprofessional officers so we get
to understand the job. We allhave blind spots.
We all have strengths andweaknesses. But again, if you
surround yourself with the rightpeople, you trust and enable the
right people, it's the team thatdelivers, right? I mean, the
leader is there to give intentand D and G but it's actually
the people that deliver.
Bryan (25:16):
For sure. And that's a lesson that goes all the way
down to even junior leaders.When you think about an aircraft
commander, for example, I'll usemy world as an example because
that's what I know. But on theAurora, you're surrounding
yourself with systems experts.You're surrounding yourself with
people who are operating thesensors and trusting all the
inputs that they're giving youand you use all that information
(25:38):
to form a picture and makedecisions and without them,
you're lost.
Jeannot (25:41):
The air force has evolved a lot in decades. Right?
It involve evolved from a timewhere you probably had about a
crash a week to to a time wherewe probably have sometimes not
even one a year. Why? Because,you know, the the concept of
flight safety and just culture,that concept of balancing safety
and accountability in a nonpunitive fashion, we've created
(26:05):
this culture where when we seesomething that's not right, we
speak up but we also have aculture where we're receptive
and we're looking to learnbecause we know we need to learn
as a team because once again,the consequences of certain
mistakes can be significant andI think that's something quite
special the Air Force has that'sbeen guiding some of the current
(26:27):
work I'm doing in the culturespace.
Bryan (26:29):
So did you find you needed to adapt your leadership
style when working with mostlyarmy personnel versus the air
force?
Jeannot (26:37):
Yes, I did. But but I think you adapt your leadership
style. I I have adapted myleadership style between 04:30,
between one wing with first kindof headquarters without proteus
like you. I still am in CPCC. Soto me, again, it's really trying
to get a sense of what theculture is, where you're at, and
(26:58):
then fitting into that culture,understanding it.
But then you can start nudgingit in the direction you want.
There's probably aspects youfeel should be done a different
way. But I think the first stepis understanding and respecting
what's going on because there'sa reason and then you can try to
shape it from there. So that'sthe approach I took to that
division. And again, I think itwas mutually beneficial.
(27:21):
I think the division is probablyslightly different, hopefully in
a good sense after I left, butI'm also slightly different and
hope and convinced a betterleader after after spending two
years there.
Bryan (27:33):
Mhmm. That makes sense. And so almost less to do with
the fact that it was an armyunit versus an air force unit,
more to do with the fact thatwith any group of people, you're
gonna need to adjust how you'releading and sort of adjust
yourself to their needs.
Jeannot (27:46):
It's a joint division, but a lot of people on the
outside said, yeah, it's Jarmy,right? It's joint, but it's
army, which is not untrue. Butat the same time, I mean, is
there anything nowadays that isnot joint or that should not be
joint combined, right? LikeMhmm. With the world is so
complex now and interconnectedthat I think, it's not even a
(28:09):
choice anymore.
I think we need to be joint fromthe start.
Bryan (28:12):
Right. And and just for our listeners, we're using the
term joint a lot. That justmeans joint means you're working
with different elements. Sowhether that's army, navy, air
force, some combination of thosetogether.
Jeannot (28:24):
Yeah. Joint and combined means we're working
with other countries. So again,in the world we live in now,
think, yeah, join combined. Ithink we need to be able to work
with all other pieces of our CAFdefense team and even I would
say later on industry and therest of Canada. And then
obviously, to keep developingour ability to work with our
(28:47):
allies and our partners acrossthe world.
Bryan (28:49):
Yeah, absolutely. So we're gonna talk about a really
interesting position you held,which is commander of task force
Jerusalem as part of Op Proteus.So broadly speaking, what is the
mission of Op Proteus?
Jeannot (29:02):
So Op Proteus is part of The United States security
coordination mission, which iswhich is basically coordinating
security between the PalestinianAuthority and the West Bank and
the Israeli Defense Forces. It'scommanded by a three star US
General that reports directly tothe Secretary of State and
there's a one star British and aone star Canadian general
(29:26):
underneath that. And we workwith a lot of different partners
as well in the area. The mainfocus is to provide training
advice to the PalestinianAuthority security forces. So we
go out there, we help developtheir operations center, how to
run operations.
(29:47):
Basically, we go there and wetrain them. We help them develop
better systems for theirlogistics because they provide
mainly food but they provide inuniforms but they do that across
all of the West Bank and we workto professionalize their
security sector minister ofinterior. So it's a fascinating
mission that's reallymultifaceted and and quite
(30:10):
complex.
Bryan (30:11):
And just to be clear, when you say Palestinian
security forces, we're nottalking about Israeli defense
forces. We're talking aboutthese are Palestinians?
Jeannot (30:19):
Yeah. The Palestinian authority has some control over
specific areas in the West Bank,mainly Area A. And then there's
Area B, which is kind of ashared area, if you want, Area C
that belongs to Israel. Butwhich I don't want to get to, I
might have gotten backwardsthere. The Palestinian
(30:41):
Authority, which is securityforces, they provide kind of
that policing, that customs,that logistics for the areas
where they have authority andfreedom of movement to do that.
Bryan (30:53):
Okay. That makes sense. So what was the Canadian role
and why was the Canadianpresence there important?
Jeannot (31:00):
We've been there for quite a few quite a few years.
And I think our the key role wehave there as Canadians, we have
unique access. So access totheir prime minister, to their
governors, to their securitychiefs, and even refugee camp
leaders in the population. So wego around and as the commander
(31:20):
there, I get the chance to talkto all those people to kind of
understand their needs so we canhelp them, I guess, develop
those security forces. We'realso there to kind of encourage
the dialogue and the securitycoordination between them and
the Israeli Defense Forces.
So I would meet the Israeli areacommanders as well. So again,
(31:41):
just making sure again thatcommunication which is not easy
is happening and the populationis safe. The big piece in the
end is to maintain stability asobviously the two sides
negotiate an eventual agreement.
Bryan (31:57):
Okay. So almost sounds to me and you can correct me if I'm
wrong, but it almost sounds tome like it's an extension of
Canada's tradition ofpeacekeeping and that not not
that we're doing actualpeacekeeping in that mission,
but you're kind of the gobetween to help maintain a
peaceful situation.
Jeannot (32:15):
Yeah. That that's that's kind of what role is. We
show up there quite a diverseteam. There was a small team,
about 26 of us, quite a few RegForce people, so Army, Navy, Air
Force, but we also had our CMP.I think now they have some
customs and border servicespersonnel there as well.
(32:38):
And we also had like locallyengaged staff, so Palestinians,
drivers, translators, culturaladvisors. And again, it's really
about talking to the PalestinianAuthority, talking to Israelis
and making sure the needs aremutually understood and that
again, the kinds of equipmentthey would need, I guess, to
(33:03):
provide security services areavailable. And as I said, as
well as train them on the how toconduct the police role, the
customs role or just generalsecurity and refugee camps and
in more complex areas.
Bryan (33:18):
That sounds like a really complicated task.
Jeannot (33:22):
It's a real complex environment. I mean, the task
itself, you just need to realizeyou're not gonna you can't go in
there with a mindset that you'regoing to fix it. So again, what
they want is basically feelheard, feel respected and know
that you're kind of making theirneeds be heard. But yeah, I
(33:44):
spent a lot of time with a thinktank called the PASIA and and an
older past Palestinian gentlemanwho basically said that was the
major league. It doesn't getmore complex than that area of
the world for multiple reasons.
Bryan (33:59):
Mhmm. Yeah. I believe that. What was your overall
experience during thisdeployment?
Jeannot (34:05):
Like, I qualified as amazing and humbling. Left there
though hoping I could do more.I'm very much a people person.
So I think going there again,what's always amazing to me is
is the people. As I alluded toearlier, it's kind of probably
the most complex place in theworld.
You can't fix everything. But Iwas there with them for thirteen
(34:29):
months, six or seven days aweek, got to spend time with
their families, picking olivesin Hebron with elders. Just
really understanding theirsituation and trying to help in
any way we can to make them havenormal of a life as possible
(34:50):
once again while this verycomplex situation gets
eventually hopefully getsresolved.
Bryan (34:56):
It sounds like a very humbling experience.
Jeannot (34:59):
Yeah it is. I've used the term I think I felt
inadequate every day because yougo in, you listen, you
understand, you kind of knowwhat you can do, but you can't.
So you kind of feel inadequateand they are so generous because
simply being heard, beingunderstood for them means the
world. So they thank you somuch. You kinda you feel you
(35:21):
feel inadequate, but at the sametime, it it it makes you
respect, you know, just thosenormal people that are just
trying to have a normal life allthat much more.
Bryan (35:30):
Yeah. For sure. You received a chief of defense
staff commendation as part ofthis deployment. What
specifically do you think earnedyou that commendation and how
did it feel to receive it?
Jeannot (35:42):
To me, like, when I get awards like that, to me, I'm
just proud of the team. I justfeel I'm representing the team
because, again, we were like Iwas there, but I mean, the whole
team, like 20 some people werethere continuously for seven
months trying to make adifference. Call that commanders
contingency fund like fundingsmall projects, vehicles,
(36:04):
operations center material fortheir kitchens so they can
actually feed their soldiers. Socollectively, we just we made a
difference for them. And I thinkthat that accommodation was a
reflection of the exceptionalwork of the team.
Bryan (36:20):
Were you able to hand out any of your own accommodations
to your team?
Jeannot (36:25):
I did. And honestly, when you're deployed that long
with people like thirteen monthsduring COVID, so we were very
limited in our movement. Well,we were able to go in the West
Bank every day anyways, but whenwe were back in Jerusalem, our
movement was limited. So mypoint, I think, is I would have
liked to give accommodation orone to every member of the team,
(36:46):
but quite a few people got it. Ayoung logistician captain or
lieutenant navy got a CDScommendation because of all the
commanders contingency fund.
But what we did do is also havePalestinian security forces,
their national security forcesand their logistics give awards
to our Canadian members. So ourLieutenant Colonel or Majors
(37:08):
that will be with them sevendays a week helping them
develop, they got awards fromthe Palestinians. So we tried to
use that mechanism as well andand and put a special touch on
their incredible efforts.
Bryan (37:20):
Oh, that's really cool. I think it's so important to
recognize people for their work.And I think sometimes it's
something that we struggle to doadequately. I I think partly
just because people are so busydoing their job that it can be
hard to step back and be like,hey, let's recognize this. Let's
recognize that.
Jeannot (37:39):
I agree. You know, it's it's always it's it's always a
matter of balance in life. Soagain, if we if we give
commendations or formalrecognition to everybody, it's
gonna dilute it at the same timeif we're not giving enough
people don't feel recognized.But there's many ways to
recognize people. And I think,again, there's those formal
mechanisms for biggeraccomplishments, but we should
(38:02):
not shy away from recognizing invarious ways timely when we can.
But that being said, you'reright. Like if we're serious
about taking care of people,need to take the time and those
people up and make sure they arerecognized.
Bryan (38:21):
What do you think was the most rewarding experience you
had during your time on the WestBank?
Jeannot (38:27):
The most rewarding moment I think came when the
tensions rose between Gaza andIsrael during that period. I had
special access, as I said, to alot of the refugee camps and the
Palestinians. And at that time,was able to report with my team,
report up to the coordinator. Sotherefore up to probably the
Secretary of State and a lot ofsenior leaders, British,
(38:50):
Canadian and others. They werereally reading and using, I
guess, what we were providingthem, which was kind of the
unfiltered thoughts orinformation that was transmitted
to me and my team because of thespecial access we had.
Bryan (39:06):
Okay. That sounds pretty cool. The next role you served
in was director generalcapability and structure
integration within the chief offorce development. Can you tell
us what this role involved?Because it is a bit of a
mouthful.
Jeannot (39:19):
It is and probably the role is as well, but in very
short and hopefully simpleterms, it's to evolve from
replacing what we have with thesame thing. For instance, we
have a helicopter, replace witha helicopter, we have a tank, we
replace to a tank. To looking atthe future and trying to
understand what capabilitieswill be required and which ones
(39:43):
will bring most values toCanadian allies and develop the
best advice possible for theChief of Defence staff to inform
the minister and government onwhat our needs are gonna be in
the future.
Bryan (39:56):
So basically looking at sort of either capability gaps
or future needs, whether that'sequipment that's becoming too
aged or places that we needcertain equipment that we don't
have and then advising the chiefdefense staff on the best course
forward and either acquiringthat or what the best options
(40:16):
are for that?
Jeannot (40:17):
Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. I mean, in in in more technical
terms, we talk about the futureoperating environment and its
implications. So what's thefuture going to look like?
And obviously it's Five Eyesexperts that think hard at that
and say, what are theimplications? And from there you
deduct, we call them conceptrequired capabilities, but what
are the capabilities or the highvalue war fighting roles we're
(40:38):
going to play? And we war gamethat with our allies. So again,
we try to look in the future, wewar game it. And then from there
we say these are the thingswe're going to need.
And then between allies we talkand that kind of informs what we
should be buying or procuringfor the future.
Bryan (40:56):
Okay, that makes sense. And you mentioned Five Eyes. Can
you just quickly explain whatFive Eyes is?
Jeannot (41:00):
Yeah, Five Eyes is a small community. So obviously
probably our closest ally areThe United States as people
know. But when you talk aboutFive Eyes, that's United States,
UK, Australia, New Zealand andCanada.
Bryan (41:14):
Awesome. So during this time, you helped develop Our
North Strong and Free, a defensepolicy update, which was
published in April 2024. Whatrole did you play in developing
this?
Jeannot (41:26):
Well, at the time, ended up be I was the acting
chief of force development. So Iended up being kind of the key
representative, if you want, ofthe vice chief of defense staff
and the chief of defense staffon the capabilities that we need
to be included in that defensepolicy update. My partner Raquel
Garbers, I work very closelywith ADM policy, so Assistant
(41:50):
Deputy Minister Policy wasdependent on that and there were
a few other team membersinvolved in that. So that small
team was probably leading thatwork over several months to try
to once again kind of clearlydefine the geopolitical
environment and therefore ensurewe include in the policy the key
(42:13):
capabilities we need, we know weneed. And then the language
explorer is used in there whichmeans there's other areas where
we think we need that, we justneed to explore and confirm
exactly what we need.
Obviously, there was a lot ofpeople involved in there,
treasury board, finance, our owncosters internally that played a
(42:34):
heavy role in getting us to thefinal product.
Bryan (42:38):
Was that a difficult task? It sounds pretty
intricate. There's a lot ofmoving pieces. Like how hard of
a task was this?
Jeannot (42:45):
I think it was a it was a very challenging task because
you're trying to to toharmonize, synchronize,
coordinate, I guess, the needsof an entire institution. While
we want to buy new capabilities,new platforms, shiny stuff, we
have to think about theinfrastructure, the ammo, just
(43:09):
all the other pieces that comewith it. And obviously, you need
to make choices becauseresources are limited. So it
leads to very difficultconversations and that explains
why these while we can produce adraft in a few months, it takes
several months after just tomake sure it's socialized with
ministers, with cabinet, witheverybody and to get to the
(43:32):
point where a government iscomfortable publishing it.
Bryan (43:36):
What are a couple key points in the defense policy
update that you worked on?
Jeannot (43:41):
Like, my my main piece in it, I I I think, was
obviously on the capabilities.But when I read it and I see the
words ready, relevant andresilient, I think, you know, we
went through a lot of iterationsof placemats to kind of look at
what capabilities we needed inwhat order. And I think coming
(44:02):
up with those words to helppeople visualize, we need to be
ready. The key thing is we needto be ready as a CAF to serve
Canada when the call comes.Obviously, need to be relevant
with allies.
We talked about Five Eyes andour partners. We need to be
relevant. If we go somewhere, weneed to be relevant. And the
whole resiliency piece, whichpeople are hearing about. I
mean, the world is unstable inmany areas and how can we be
(44:25):
more resilient as a CAF, but asa nation.
Bryan (44:29):
So you mentioned relevancy when it comes to our
allies and operating with ourallies. Can you give me some
examples of what that lookslike?
Jeannot (44:37):
So relevance has to do with all the pieces. So we need
the right pieces of equipment.But if you're talking like
communicating between ourselvesand with allies, so we need the
right equipment to communicateat the right security level. We
need the right logistics supportto move our assets where it
needs to be. We need to have theammo for our own assets.
(44:58):
So I would say probably selfsustaining. We're moving into a
world where where you move backto conventional operations where
I think as a Canadian ArmedForces, need to be able to self
sustain. To be relevant,sometimes we talk about
contribution warfare. We cansend some pieces, but if we want
to be relevant in this world, weneed to be able to be self
(45:20):
sustaining in the sense that webring the right capabilities,
but we can also do the logisticsand all the support piece that
comes behind it.
Bryan (45:29):
Okay. And would that also have to do with, for example,
you know, bringing an f 35 tothe fight versus bringing an f
18 and those types of things interms of relevancy, like the the
generation of fighters we'rebringing, the the capabilities
those have in terms ofcommunications?
Jeannot (45:45):
Yeah. Well, I mean, things are things are quickly
evolving. And I would say thebattlefield as we're seeing in
Ukraine is increasingly lethal.So, you know, we need to be able
to to bring capabilitiesforward, but make sure that
those capabilities are effectiveand are safe. So again,
obviously, if you're talkingabout F-thirty five and fifth
(46:08):
generation fighter, well, Imean, the fighter is a piece of
it, but there's a whole piece interms of communications,
intelligence, infrastructure,and everything else that comes
with it.
And that is that is therelevance piece, but that also
speaks to the resilience piece.
Bryan (46:27):
Can you tell me about some new capabilities that may
come to be as a result of thedefense policy update?
Jeannot (46:33):
Yeah. Well, I would like, I encourage, like, people
to go and and have a quick lookat, you know, our north strong
and free the up the the policyand quickly go through it. It'll
give you a good sense. But,obviously, there's pieces there
for families, for housing, thosekinds of things. In terms of
pure capabilities, there's afocus on how we're going to be
able to sustain our equipment,on ammunition, on space
(46:57):
capabilities to include SATCOM,tactical helicopters, cyber
submarines, airborne earlywarning, which should be
exciting to a lot of air forcepeople.
Bryan (47:06):
For sure.
Jeannot (47:06):
Long range land missiles and there's also, as I
spoke earlier, like exploringintegrated air and missile
defense, ground based airdefense, modern artillery or
main battle tanks and drones.It's worth having a look because
I think the policy reflectsquite well the work I talked
earlier about, about trying tolook into the future and
(47:29):
identify the kinds ofcapabilities we need.
Bryan (47:32):
Yeah, as that whole director general capability
instructor integration, likethat whole role of looking into
the future and trying toidentify what it is we're going
to need.
Jeannot (47:40):
And the people as well, right? Like when you read the
policy or if you're followingright now, there's a talk. We
need to obviously fill ourcurrent ranks. But, you know,
there's a there's anacknowledgment we're going to
need to grow. If we bring in allthese capabilities, we need new
people and we need, you know,different people, like the right
kind of people to to be able tooperate those those new
(48:03):
capabilities.
Bryan (48:04):
For sure. And I noticed you mentioned ground based air
defense. I know that must make alot of the army types out there
excited because I know there wasa lot of people who didn't like
it when we got rid of thatcapability. So that would be
huge.
Jeannot (48:17):
No. Absolutely. As we move back yeah. Sometimes we
divest the capabilities. Butagain, as as as the environment
evolves, there's a clear needfor some of these things.
So you're right. Those arecritical critical capabilities.
Bryan (48:31):
Well, for sure. And we got rid of that during
Afghanistan where there was noair threat. And now we're
looking at, as you said,conventional warfare where there
would be an air threat. Andthere's threats from not just
conventional aircraft, butdrones. So it'd be very
interesting to see how thatdevelops.
Jeannot (48:45):
Absolutely.
Bryan (48:46):
Okay, Janelle. That's gonna wrap up our chat for
today. I just wanna thank you somuch for your time. I know
you're a very busy guy. Thankyou so much for being on the
show, and we will talk to youfor the next one.
Jeannot (48:55):
Thanks, Brian.
Bryan (48:57):
Okay. That wraps up part two of our chat with Geno
Boucher, current chief of staff,chief professional conduct and
culture. For our next episode,we'll be sitting down for our
final part with Geno, where weget into the topic of his
current position as well as alarger discussion on culture
change within the Canadian ArmedForces. Do you have any
questions or comments aboutanything you've heard
Intro/Outro (49:16):
in this show? Would you or someone you know make a
great guest, or do you have a
Bryan (49:20):
great idea for a show?
Intro/Outro (49:21):
You can reach out to us at the
pilotprojectpodcast@Gmail.com oron all social media at at pod
pilot project. And be sure
Bryan (49:28):
to check out that social media for lots of great videos
of our RCAF aircraft. As always,we'd like to thank you for
tuning in and ask for your helpwith
Intro/Outro (49:36):
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your friends, and follow and rate us five stars wherever
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Intro/Outro (49:49):
Engineer, shut down all four. Shutting down all four
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Bryan (00:28):
Hey, everybody. It's your host, Brian Morrison here with
our standard RCAF senior officerpre episode commentary. We live
in a twenty four hour newscycle, and comments can be very
quickly overtaken by events. Soto put things in perspective,
this interview was recorded inearly January.
Intro/Outro (00:46):
Fuel and ignition switches on RPM switches. Set TV
switches. Normal doors andhatches.
Jeannot (00:52):
Closed lay
Intro/Outro (00:53):
down. Strobe light On. Research check-in. Complete
clear left. Engineer.
Start number two. Turning two.Wing three one zero ten. Pilot
project broadcast. Cleartakeoff.
Runway three one left.
Bryan (01:14):
Alright. We're ready for departure here at the pilot
project podcast, the best sourcefor stories and advice from RCAF
and Mission Aviation Pilotsbrought to you by Sky's
Magazine. Today, we're back forpart two of our chat with
Janneau Boucher, current chiefof staff, chief professional
conduct and culture. Janneau,welcome back, and thanks for
being here today.
Jeannot (01:32):
Hey. Thanks, Brian. I'm happy to be back.
Bryan (01:34):
Listeners can check out part one to hear about Geno's
early days as well as his timein Afghanistan. Today, we'll be
talking about some of his earlycommand roles, his time as
commander of task forceJerusalem in support of Op
Proteus in the West Bank, aswell as his work developing our
North strong and free. So we'regonna move into talking now
about some of your commandappointments in international
(01:56):
roles. How did your flighttraining and operational
experiences prepare you forcommand in the RCAF?
Jeannot (02:02):
I talked about it earlier a bit. I think
discipline, like the five p's,the the importance of
preparation, the like,discipline and how you approach.
That was was huge. Myunderstanding of teamwork and
the importance of trust andmaking sure everybody has an
important role in the team,probably the importance of
balancing theory withexperience. Like Afghanistan,
(02:24):
you can be in Ottawa and I'm inOttawa now and think you
understand, but the people thatare actually living it are the
ones that really understand andwe need to just find that sweet
spot.
It's in the middle but it'sprobably leaning on the side of
experience more than theory andI would say humility. Like my
flight training, failure duringflight training, mistakes on
(02:46):
operations, all these thingsmade me, I like to think humble
and appreciate the challenge andthe responsibility of command.
And I learned that leadershipwas not about being the smartest
person at the unit. It was aboutmaking everybody around me
better and surrounding myselfwith with smart people.
Bryan (03:06):
Yeah. I like that. I also like what you said about kind of
finding that balance between theboots on the ground perspective
and the Ottawa perspectivebecause they're both definitely
important. Like, if it was allthe theory, we all know that
theory is great until it meetsreal world. Right?
Like that whole that whole thingabout no plan survives first
contact with the enemy. But atthe same time, if all you're
(03:28):
going with is the boots on theground perspective, you lose the
big picture and you might missout on some of the kind of
greater significant stuffthat'll kind of pass you right
by. So I like that.
Jeannot (03:39):
Yeah. And I'll tell you my time in Afghanistan working
with Ottawa as we were figuringit out, it was so many lessons
learned there on the concept ofrisk. Because when you're flying
in Canada and you're training,you know, it's normal. There's a
certain level of risk, but youhave to balance that
airworthiness risk withoperational risk. So when you're
(04:01):
landing in a landing zone inAfghanistan where you can't stay
on the ground for more than oneminute and you have to take off
with 40 troops in the back of aChinook, you can't wait for them
to have all their seat belts.
So the idea of having a seatbelt is a safety concern, but
you have to balance that withthe real life operational risks.
And though that's a really keylesson I learned there.
Bryan (04:22):
Well, you're basically balancing the risk of a seat
belt versus an RPG or small armsor something like that, right?
Jeannot (04:29):
But to people in Ottawa that have not flown there yet,
them they see, you know, theyhear a story that people are
taking off without seat belts,which is not inaccurate. But
again, we just need, I wouldjust tell people again, whatever
you decide in life or in a staffjob, just try to make sure
you're you're always going thatextra mile and making sure
(04:51):
you're talking to people thatare actually doing the job and
understand their perspective.
Bryan (04:56):
So you were the commanding officer or a CO of
four thirty tactical helicoptersquadron from 02/2013 to
02/2015. How did it feel to betaking command of an operational
tac health squadron, and did youfeel prepared?
Jeannot (05:08):
Well, was amazing. I think commanding officer or that
level is like the best job ofyour career. I think you apply
everything you learn to datewith a team of about, you know,
in the air force two or 300 abit bitter on the army, but it's
the size of a team you can getto to know everybody. So I was I
was a bit nervous, but I waskind of excited. And and
honestly, I yeah.
(05:29):
I feel I I feel I was prepared,but there's always a steep
learning curve every time youmove up in rank or every time
you take command at a differentlevel.
Bryan (05:39):
What was the greatest challenge you faced while in
command of four thirty Squadron?
Jeannot (05:43):
It was one of experience and a focus on
rebuilding. I didn't expectthat. When I deployed in
02/2009, we had an extremelyexperienced unit. I went back to
be the CO four years later. Thelevel of experience was quite
low and we were rebuilding.
So I learned that every commandhas its own unique challenges.
(06:03):
You kind of need to listen, youneed to care, you need to try to
understand and you need to kindof focus on the challenge you
have, which was to me rebuildingthe unit, rebuilding the
experience. And at that time wewere also shifting from
Afghanistan to a return toconventional operations, we
haven't hadn't done or trainedin several years.
Bryan (06:24):
So what led to that situation that there was a need
to rebuild? Have there just beena bunch of people who had
retired or people had beenpromoted out or what had led to
that?
Jeannot (06:34):
Several things, but there was a point where there's
a certain age group where we hadless pilots in the CAF combined
with the fact there's a lot ofpeople when they came back from
Afghanistan, like it was hardfor them to get motivated after
you've gone through that levelof training, that experience,
that flying. There's quite a fewpeople that released at the
time. Several of them came backafter but I was in a period of
(06:57):
time where the numbers werelower, the experience level was
lower. You had a lot of veryjunior people, you still had a
lot of experience at the majorlieutenant colonel level but
kinda your senior captains werewere were few.
Bryan (07:11):
Okay. That makes sense. What was the biggest lesson you
learned from your time as a CO?
Jeannot (07:17):
I think as a CO, it's again the importance of kind of
the diversity of perspectivesbecause then you're at the stage
where you're actually makingdecisions. You have pilots, you
understand the pilot stuff quitewell, but logistics,
maintenance, the whole adminpiece. I had like 75 reservists
there. So yeah, I kind oflearned the importance of that.
(07:42):
The second one I learned waslike, I think the importance of
setting conditions because whenyou get to that level of being
commanding officer, it's aboutsetting conditions.
Sometimes the impact of yourleadership or what you're doing
will only be felt in the nexttwo or three years. So we are at
a level right now where you'renot always going to get kind of
(08:02):
an instant reward or return forwhat you're doing. You kind of
live with what the previous CEOput in place and you set the
conditions for your successor,if that makes sense.
Bryan (08:11):
Yeah. So you're saying that basically you're sort of
setting things up to be yourvision of where the squadron
needs to go, but it's going totake some time for those
conditions to actually bearfruit and for that to actually
happen with the squadron.
Jeannot (08:25):
Yeah. In our case, we're moving back to
conventional warfare. So again,different, different flying,
different type of operations.And then you're rebuilding your
young air crew with thatmindset. And you know, as a
pilot, takes a year or twobefore then you become an
aircraft commander and a sectionlead.
So it takes a few years to seeif you've done the right thing
(08:47):
and if things will pay off.
Bryan (08:49):
How difficult was that coming back and basically having
trained for asymmetric warfarein Afghanistan to face more of
an insurgency type threat andthen pivoting to train for
conventional warfare? Thatsounds like a huge change.
Jeannot (09:05):
It was. And I had to lean a lot on on my reservists
because four thirty were quiteprivileged, I had about 200
Regforce people, but 75reservists, a lot of them very
experienced. So I had to lean onthem to understand how they used
to do things in the 80s and 90sand then kind of distill those
(09:25):
key lessons and instill thoseobviously with the new mindset,
with the new technology and thenew way we do things. That's how
we got there. But again, peopleare amazing.
You get out the old doctrine,you kind of challenge your
junior leaders with it, you letthem go and what they come up
with is amazing. So when we didthose maple resolve out in
(09:46):
Wainwright or Rafael Blanche inQuebec City there in 2015, I was
just amazed by people. We weretalking about combat arms people
earlier. Those combat armspeople had those basic skills,
that strong foundation that wecould use in order to kind of
protect our forward armrefueling point or protect our
camp when we're deployed in thefield with our helicopters.
Bryan (10:08):
It still sounds like a massive challenge, but it sounds
like you had some really goodresources to work with.
Jeannot (10:14):
You never have enough resources, but it's about making
no, but you don't. But it'salways about making the most of
what you have. And that'sanother lesson as well. Like,
you will never have enoughresources. You'll never have
everything you need, but liketrue leaders make the most of
what they have.
It doesn't mean you don't informor be very vocal about what you
(10:34):
need but there's a differencebetween being vocal and not
doing anything and being vocalabout what you need but really
maximizing the impact you havewith the resources you have.
Bryan (10:44):
Oh, for sure. And if there's one thing I learned in
my time in the military, you'llnever have the ideal setup.
You'll never have exactly theideal equipment, exactly the
ideal amount of people. It'sjust the nature of the business.
We're trying to do a lot ofthings and you have what you
have and then you go and make itwork.
Jeannot (11:03):
You know, we deployed to Afghanistan with the Griffin
and and and we came up with theconcept of door gunners. But in
an insurgency warfare, havingdoor guns M134s on both sides
with experienced army guys asdoor gunners and flight
engineers, we were hugelyeffective in the role we did
there. You know, some leaderswould have said we can't deploy,
(11:25):
we don't have the right aircraftas Canadians, we decided to
deploy and we really, really hadan impact I'm quite proud of for
the period of time we werethere.
Bryan (11:35):
Yeah, that's honestly the Griffon in Afghanistan is the
perfect example of what I wassaying. Like, it's an aircraft
that many people would say,well, it was gonna face
significant challenges justgiven the altitude that
Afghanistan is at and thetemperatures and just the the
limits of what the Griffin cando. But from what I've heard,
the Griffin was extremelycapable in the way that we
(11:56):
employed it and was, again, fromwhat I've heard, quite feared by
the Taliban.
Jeannot (12:03):
Yes. I I I think it was. And and again, we tend to
focus on platforms a lot a lotand don't focus as much on the
quality of our pilots. When wegot there, it was only other
country special forces that flewin what they call black illum
when it was too dark. We showedup as Canadians.
We're used to flying low. We'reused to flying when it's really
(12:24):
dark. We started operating at aperiod of time where some other
conventional forces were not. Sotherefore we were highly in
demand. I mean, the competencewe talked about of our NCOs, of
our maintainers were such, Ithink we had 100% serviceability
the whole time.
So again, if we focus ondeveloping amazing people, then
(12:45):
they'll do amazing things withtechnology we have. Once again,
we need to get the right things,and we'll probably talk about
that later.
Bryan (12:51):
Oh, for sure. Your time as a wing commander was spent in
command of one wing from 02/2016to 02/2018, putting you at the
head of tactical helicopteraviation. How did you feel your
time in Afghanistan and as theCEO of four thirty Squadron had
prepared you for this position?
Jeannot (13:07):
I think it I think it well, the time in Afghanistan in
04/30 definitely helped. Like, Iunderstood the wing and then
that was obviously that wasobviously quite good. But I took
over on very short notice onJune notice because of very kind
of challenging circumstances andI was only 40 at the time so I
was quite young. And I rememberlike the day I took over, the
(13:30):
commander of the division wasthere to oversee the parade and
asked me if he could have myoffice because commander of the
air force wanted to talk to him.Then we were supposed to talk to
our commanding officers in theafternoon.
And when he came out of there,he says, he brought me in the
office and told me the commanderof the air force just asked him
to make sure we were looking andgoing to be ready to deploy to
Mali. At the time we werealready taken over for four
(13:54):
twenty seven Squadron in Erbil,Iraq. And then I was asked how
we could even support Mali atthe same time. So that afternoon
meeting kind of became myinitial commander's intent and
my family was moving our houseat the time. And I remember
being in a hotel room right inmy DNG to my COs so we could
(14:15):
start planning how we were goingto do that.
Bryan (14:17):
Sorry, what's a DNG?
Jeannot (14:18):
Direction and guidance and intent. So basically me
sitting there and talking to mywing leadership to say, for this
to work, we're going to go intoherbal Iraq and do it this way.
And we're going to prepare to goto Mali this way. But then, you
know, then once again, justtrust our amazing people to
figure out the how.
Bryan (14:38):
And as we're talking about this, we're talking a lot
about tac aviation. We'retalking about one wing. Can you
just quickly explain what onewing is and kind of what the
role is?
Jeannot (14:47):
Yeah. One Wing, we call it tactical aviation, but it's
basically what a lot of othercountries call army aviation.
But instead of being part of thearmy, we're part of the air
force. And our key roles arerecce, mobility, and firepower.
And that's what we bring, Iguess, to the army and to
everything we do.
In Canada, we're part of the airforce, also quite agile. So we
(15:10):
obviously play a utility rolewithin the country or outside
the country for disasterassistance, non combatant
evacuation, floods, fires, andthings like that. But the
primary role of tacticalaviation is recce mobility and
firepower in support of thearmy.
Bryan (15:27):
Right. And then one wing being the the head of tactical
aviation.
Jeannot (15:32):
Yeah. So the commander one wing is the senior tactical
aviator and and and sits at armycouncil with the the Canadian
army as the aviation adviser tothe commander of the army.
Bryan (15:43):
And while speaking of that, as you've said, part of
your role as one wing commanderwas sitting in the Canadian Army
Council with the commander ofthe army and all the divisional
commanders. Can you explain yourrole on this council and how it
felt to be a representative ofthe air force in an army
setting?
Jeannot (15:59):
Yeah. So army council is basically chaired by the
commander of the army. He's gotall his division commanders and
senior army leadership, and theydiscuss and decide on the future
of the army. It's quite a trueprivilege to sit on that
council. I got to sit on it forfour years, two years as a wing
commander, two years ascommander of first Candive
headquarters.
So you meet about four or fivetimes a year. It's just an
(16:23):
amazing learning experiencebecause the, you know, the the
army treats you like one oftheirs and they give you full
access. So it's
Intro/Outro (16:31):
tremendous
Jeannot (16:32):
learning experience, but also build relationships
that served me for the remainderof my career.
Bryan (16:38):
What would you say was the biggest area you experienced
growth in as a result of thatposition?
Jeannot (16:42):
The risk is sounding a bit repetitive, but together
we're stronger like we are. Andthen, you know, we had lived
through the Afghanistan days,but it's, you know, we talked
earlier about cross pollination.So bringing an Air Force
perspective to the Army, butalso understanding the Army and
really respecting the challengethey have. So to me, like
(17:03):
diversity of thought andperspective is just hugely
powerful and necessary in theworld we live in. I think again,
all parts of the CAF are amazingand sometimes we don't know the
other parts and I don't think weappreciate them enough.
The more we can work jointly orcollectively and get to know
each other, the more that trustand respect builds. And I guess
(17:24):
the more effective we are as aas a CAF where whatever job we
do.
Bryan (17:30):
You mentioned they're getting to know the different
parts of the CAF. What was thebiggest thing that you came
appreciate when working with thearmy? Like, what did you really
appreciate about them?
Jeannot (17:40):
I I just think it's it's their reality and and their
challenges. Right? Like, I mean,the army is the army is really
about people. I think we're allabout people, but the army is
the army is really about people.At the time, I think it was well
led, well trained, well equippedwas the model they were using.
But again, it's just reallyabout leadership. When we talk
(18:02):
about unlimited liability, Imean, you can do any operation
you want, but at one point, ifyou're going to control an area
of operations or whatever, youneed boots on the ground. So
again, I think I already had avery high level of respect
because of the time inAfghanistan, but that just
helped me understand some of thegreater details.
Bryan (18:22):
You mentioned unlimited liability. Can you explain that?
Jeannot (18:25):
Well, basically, a CAF member, you can be put in harm's
way to the point, I guess, oflosing your life in order to
achieve the mission. And I thinkagain, it's already been fifteen
years, so I assume some youngpeople were not part of that,
but we definitely went throughthat in Afghanistan. Then when
(18:46):
we're moving back toconventional operations, it
raises that thinking to a wholenew level because the types of
operations you're talking about,we wouldn't be losing just a
couple people any given day orany given week. You're talking
about casualties at a muchhigher level.
Bryan (19:01):
In a conventional war, you mean? Yeah. Yeah.
Absolutely. That's something forsure, like watching the fighting
in Ukraine and thinking aboutthe casualty levels that are
being suffered there.
I mean, it's in the hundreds ofthousands at this point. You put
that into perspective for sureof the kinds of casualties that
Canada or one of our allieswould suffer in a conventional
(19:22):
war. It's it's hard to picture.
Jeannot (19:24):
We talk about ethics and values. Right? We have three
principles and five values butour three principles are respect
the dignity of all people andrespecting the dignity of all
people is obviously all our CAFmembers but I would say up to
the enemy. I mean like fightinga war is not a cool thing,
right? Like cool is not the wordthat comes to mind.
The second one is obey lawfulauthority. So again, you can be
(19:47):
told to do something. When wetalk about unlimited liability,
I mean, you can be put in theface of harm. And the third one
is like serve your countrybefore self. And and I think as
CAF members, those thoseprinciples really ring true to
me.
Bryan (20:03):
Mhmm. For sure. So your next position was chief of staff
of First Canadian division. Sowhen I first heard this, you
actually had to clarify with mebecause I thought it was the
First Canadian Air division,which is here in Winnipeg. But,
no, this is a joint division,and I think you were potentially
the first air force member to bein command of it.
(20:25):
So what special challenges didyou face as an air force officer
commanding first Canadiandivision?
Jeannot (20:30):
Yeah. First Canadian division's a yeah. Joint
division commanded by a twostar, and there's the the the
chief of staff operations as anair force colonel, and then the
chief of of staff support is anarmy colonel. When I arrived
there is when NATO Mission Iraqstarted, so the commander got
sent there. Then at the time,Commander CJOG General Hulo
(20:51):
appointed me as the interimcommander, which ended up being
for a period of eighteen ortwenty months.
I think the biggest challenge, Iwas one of several division
commanders under the AlliedRapid Reaction Corps. So we
train with that NATO Corps ledby a three star. So me going on
(21:14):
exercises or even some of thetrips with basically all army
two stars, Italy, Poland, UK,Americans and just being an air
force colonel there was quiteintimidating. And that's where I
learned or reinforced a veryimportant lesson of surrounding
yourself with very smart people.Jim Davis, Colonel Jim Davis was
(21:38):
an Army Reserve colonel withextensive experience and he kind
of became, I would say, one ofmy key advisors to kind of help
me bridge my knowledge gap.
Bryan (21:48):
So you mentioned sorry. A rapid reaction force. Is that
the term?
Jeannot (21:54):
Rapid reaction core.
Bryan (21:55):
Okay.
Jeannot (21:56):
NATO has the allied rapid reaction core and that's
in The UK and it's commanded byUK Three star there. We train.
So there's a UK division,there's an American division and
there's a UK, American AndCanadian Division. And then
there's other people, but it'sbasically a function of training
and getting ready in the eventNATO would have to deploy at
(22:19):
that level. But a core isobviously like a very big
formation.
Bryan (22:23):
How many people are in a core?
Jeannot (22:25):
Upwards of a hundred thousand.
Bryan (22:27):
Oh, wow. That's crazy. Yeah. That must have been kind
of intimidating to be working onthat level.
Jeannot (22:34):
It was, but again, it it's kind of a learning
experience. People are Peopleare patient if you work hard and
you learn, I guess you learnevery step of the way and you
ask lots of questions. I thinkpeople react well if you're
genuine and authentic. Workingreally hard, reading, asking
(22:55):
questions to understand, andbeing prepared. Right?
Like, at least in an exercise,you can always be prepared. So I
I worked through it and it was ahugely rewarding experience.
Bryan (23:06):
Back to the first Canadian division, did you find
that your time in Afghanistangave you some buy in from army
folks?
Jeannot (23:14):
Yeah. For sure. I mean, the basic trust was there, as
you said, from the Afghanistandays as well as sitting at army
councils. So, yeah, I had thattrust going into the division
obviously as a new member there.Obviously army guys look at you
because culturally we'redifferent, The way we lead is
(23:35):
different.
I had comments of people tellingme, You know, at first we
thought that was kind of weird,but we got to understand your
style and we really like it. Soagain, it was a fascinating
experience for me to kind ofgain that trust from army
officers that look at you alittle bit like the Not the
outsider, but obviously somebodythat comes in with a different
(23:57):
style and a differentperspective.
Bryan (23:59):
Well, I mean, it is a big change, right? Like I said,
potentially, obviously we'd haveto look and double check, but
potentially the first air forcemember to be in command of the
division. A big change for thepeople who work for that
division to have an air forcemember in charge.
Jeannot (24:15):
Yeah. Well, for them, I mean, it's it's a you know, they
wanna be ready for operations.They wanna be led effectively. I
remember my whole old hockeycoach teaching in his school of
life that people don't care howmuch you know until they know
how much you care. And to me,I've always tried to use that
approach, which is reallygenuinely care about people and
(24:37):
again, a relationship with themand kind of be vulnerable.
So if you're making mistakes,you're admitting them but you're
getting up and you keep fightingright away. Like you don't get
to complain, you just get up andthen you learn and you show them
that you're learning every stepof the way. I think when you do
that, you kind of gain respect.And then obviously after a few
(24:58):
months, I mean, we're allprofessional officers so we get
to understand the job. We allhave blind spots.
We all have strengths andweaknesses. But again, if you
surround yourself with the rightpeople, you trust and enable the
right people, it's the team thatdelivers, right? I mean, the
leader is there to give intentand D and G but it's actually
the people that deliver.
Bryan (25:16):
For sure. And that's a lesson that goes all the way
down to even junior leaders.When you think about an aircraft
commander, for example, I'll usemy world as an example because
that's what I know. But on theAurora, you're surrounding
yourself with systems experts.You're surrounding yourself with
people who are operating thesensors and trusting all the
inputs that they're giving youand you use all that information
(25:38):
to form a picture and makedecisions and without them,
you're lost.
Jeannot (25:41):
The air force has evolved a lot in decades. Right?
It involve evolved from a timewhere you probably had about a
crash a week to to a time wherewe probably have sometimes not
even one a year. Why? Because,you know, the the concept of
flight safety and just culture,that concept of balancing safety
and accountability in a nonpunitive fashion, we've created
(26:05):
this culture where when we seesomething that's not right, we
speak up but we also have aculture where we're receptive
and we're looking to learnbecause we know we need to learn
as a team because once again,the consequences of certain
mistakes can be significant andI think that's something quite
special the Air Force has that'sbeen guiding some of the current
(26:27):
work I'm doing in the culturespace.
Bryan (26:29):
So did you find you needed to adapt your leadership
style when working with mostlyarmy personnel versus the air
force?
Jeannot (26:37):
Yes, I did. But but I think you adapt your leadership
style. I I have adapted myleadership style between 04:30,
between one wing with first kindof headquarters without proteus
like you. I still am in CPCC. Soto me, again, it's really trying
to get a sense of what theculture is, where you're at, and
(26:58):
then fitting into that culture,understanding it.
But then you can start nudgingit in the direction you want.
There's probably aspects youfeel should be done a different
way. But I think the first stepis understanding and respecting
what's going on because there'sa reason and then you can try to
shape it from there. So that'sthe approach I took to that
division. And again, I think itwas mutually beneficial.
(27:21):
I think the division is probablyslightly different, hopefully in
a good sense after I left, butI'm also slightly different and
hope and convinced a betterleader after after spending two
years there.
Bryan (27:33):
Mhmm. That makes sense. And so almost less to do with
the fact that it was an armyunit versus an air force unit,
more to do with the fact thatwith any group of people, you're
gonna need to adjust how you'releading and sort of adjust
yourself to their needs.
Jeannot (27:46):
It's a joint division, but a lot of people on the
outside said, yeah, it's Jarmy,right? It's joint, but it's
army, which is not untrue. Butat the same time, I mean, is
there anything nowadays that isnot joint or that should not be
joint combined, right? LikeMhmm. With the world is so
complex now and interconnectedthat I think, it's not even a
(28:09):
choice anymore.
I think we need to be joint fromthe start.
Bryan (28:12):
Right. And and just for our listeners, we're using the
term joint a lot. That justmeans joint means you're working
with different elements. Sowhether that's army, navy, air
force, some combination of thosetogether.
Jeannot (28:24):
Yeah. Joint and combined means we're working
with other countries. So again,in the world we live in now,
think, yeah, join combined. Ithink we need to be able to work
with all other pieces of our CAFdefense team and even I would
say later on industry and therest of Canada. And then
obviously, to keep developingour ability to work with our
(28:47):
allies and our partners acrossthe world.
Bryan (28:49):
Yeah, absolutely. So we're gonna talk about a really
interesting position you held,which is commander of task force
Jerusalem as part of Op Proteus.So broadly speaking, what is the
mission of Op Proteus?
Jeannot (29:02):
So Op Proteus is part of The United States security
coordination mission, which iswhich is basically coordinating
security between the PalestinianAuthority and the West Bank and
the Israeli Defense Forces. It'scommanded by a three star US
General that reports directly tothe Secretary of State and
there's a one star British and aone star Canadian general
(29:26):
underneath that. And we workwith a lot of different partners
as well in the area. The mainfocus is to provide training
advice to the PalestinianAuthority security forces. So we
go out there, we help developtheir operations center, how to
run operations.
(29:47):
Basically, we go there and wetrain them. We help them develop
better systems for theirlogistics because they provide
mainly food but they provide inuniforms but they do that across
all of the West Bank and we workto professionalize their
security sector minister ofinterior. So it's a fascinating
mission that's reallymultifaceted and and quite
(30:10):
complex.
Bryan (30:11):
And just to be clear, when you say Palestinian
security forces, we're nottalking about Israeli defense
forces. We're talking aboutthese are Palestinians?
Jeannot (30:19):
Yeah. The Palestinian authority has some control over
specific areas in the West Bank,mainly Area A. And then there's
Area B, which is kind of ashared area, if you want, Area C
that belongs to Israel. Butwhich I don't want to get to, I
might have gotten backwardsthere. The Palestinian
(30:41):
Authority, which is securityforces, they provide kind of
that policing, that customs,that logistics for the areas
where they have authority andfreedom of movement to do that.
Bryan (30:53):
Okay. That makes sense. So what was the Canadian role
and why was the Canadianpresence there important?
Jeannot (31:00):
We've been there for quite a few quite a few years.
And I think our the key role wehave there as Canadians, we have
unique access. So access totheir prime minister, to their
governors, to their securitychiefs, and even refugee camp
leaders in the population. So wego around and as the commander
(31:20):
there, I get the chance to talkto all those people to kind of
understand their needs so we canhelp them, I guess, develop
those security forces. We'realso there to kind of encourage
the dialogue and the securitycoordination between them and
the Israeli Defense Forces.
So I would meet the Israeli areacommanders as well. So again,
(31:41):
just making sure again thatcommunication which is not easy
is happening and the populationis safe. The big piece in the
end is to maintain stability asobviously the two sides
negotiate an eventual agreement.
Bryan (31:57):
Okay. So almost sounds to me and you can correct me if I'm
wrong, but it almost sounds tome like it's an extension of
Canada's tradition ofpeacekeeping and that not not
that we're doing actualpeacekeeping in that mission,
but you're kind of the gobetween to help maintain a
peaceful situation.
Jeannot (32:15):
Yeah. That that's that's kind of what role is. We
show up there quite a diverseteam. There was a small team,
about 26 of us, quite a few RegForce people, so Army, Navy, Air
Force, but we also had our CMP.I think now they have some
customs and border servicespersonnel there as well.
(32:38):
And we also had like locallyengaged staff, so Palestinians,
drivers, translators, culturaladvisors. And again, it's really
about talking to the PalestinianAuthority, talking to Israelis
and making sure the needs aremutually understood and that
again, the kinds of equipmentthey would need, I guess, to
(33:03):
provide security services areavailable. And as I said, as
well as train them on the how toconduct the police role, the
customs role or just generalsecurity and refugee camps and
in more complex areas.
Bryan (33:18):
That sounds like a really complicated task.
Jeannot (33:22):
It's a real complex environment. I mean, the task
itself, you just need to realizeyou're not gonna you can't go in
there with a mindset that you'regoing to fix it. So again, what
they want is basically feelheard, feel respected and know
that you're kind of making theirneeds be heard. But yeah, I
(33:44):
spent a lot of time with a thinktank called the PASIA and and an
older past Palestinian gentlemanwho basically said that was the
major league. It doesn't getmore complex than that area of
the world for multiple reasons.
Bryan (33:59):
Mhmm. Yeah. I believe that. What was your overall
experience during thisdeployment?
Jeannot (34:05):
Like, I qualified as amazing and humbling. Left there
though hoping I could do more.I'm very much a people person.
So I think going there again,what's always amazing to me is
is the people. As I alluded toearlier, it's kind of probably
the most complex place in theworld.
You can't fix everything. But Iwas there with them for thirteen
(34:29):
months, six or seven days aweek, got to spend time with
their families, picking olivesin Hebron with elders. Just
really understanding theirsituation and trying to help in
any way we can to make them havenormal of a life as possible
(34:50):
once again while this verycomplex situation gets
eventually hopefully getsresolved.
Bryan (34:56):
It sounds like a very humbling experience.
Jeannot (34:59):
Yeah it is. I've used the term I think I felt
inadequate every day because yougo in, you listen, you
understand, you kind of knowwhat you can do, but you can't.
So you kind of feel inadequateand they are so generous because
simply being heard, beingunderstood for them means the
world. So they thank you somuch. You kinda you feel you
(35:21):
feel inadequate, but at the sametime, it it it makes you
respect, you know, just thosenormal people that are just
trying to have a normal life allthat much more.
Bryan (35:30):
Yeah. For sure. You received a chief of defense
staff commendation as part ofthis deployment. What
specifically do you think earnedyou that commendation and how
did it feel to receive it?
Jeannot (35:42):
To me, like, when I get awards like that, to me, I'm
just proud of the team. I justfeel I'm representing the team
because, again, we were like Iwas there, but I mean, the whole
team, like 20 some people werethere continuously for seven
months trying to make adifference. Call that commanders
contingency fund like fundingsmall projects, vehicles,
(36:04):
operations center material fortheir kitchens so they can
actually feed their soldiers. Socollectively, we just we made a
difference for them. And I thinkthat that accommodation was a
reflection of the exceptionalwork of the team.
Bryan (36:20):
Were you able to hand out any of your own accommodations
to your team?
Jeannot (36:25):
I did. And honestly, when you're deployed that long
with people like thirteen monthsduring COVID, so we were very
limited in our movement. Well,we were able to go in the West
Bank every day anyways, but whenwe were back in Jerusalem, our
movement was limited. So mypoint, I think, is I would have
liked to give accommodation orone to every member of the team,
(36:46):
but quite a few people got it. Ayoung logistician captain or
lieutenant navy got a CDScommendation because of all the
commanders contingency fund.
But what we did do is also havePalestinian security forces,
their national security forcesand their logistics give awards
to our Canadian members. So ourLieutenant Colonel or Majors
(37:08):
that will be with them sevendays a week helping them
develop, they got awards fromthe Palestinians. So we tried to
use that mechanism as well andand and put a special touch on
their incredible efforts.
Bryan (37:20):
Oh, that's really cool. I think it's so important to
recognize people for their work.And I think sometimes it's
something that we struggle to doadequately. I I think partly
just because people are so busydoing their job that it can be
hard to step back and be like,hey, let's recognize this. Let's
recognize that.
Jeannot (37:39):
I agree. You know, it's it's always it's it's always a
matter of balance in life. Soagain, if we if we give
commendations or formalrecognition to everybody, it's
gonna dilute it at the same timeif we're not giving enough
people don't feel recognized.But there's many ways to
recognize people. And I think,again, there's those formal
mechanisms for biggeraccomplishments, but we should
(38:02):
not shy away from recognizing invarious ways timely when we can.
But that being said, you'reright. Like if we're serious
about taking care of people,need to take the time and those
people up and make sure they arerecognized.
Bryan (38:21):
What do you think was the most rewarding experience you
had during your time on the WestBank?
Jeannot (38:27):
The most rewarding moment I think came when the
tensions rose between Gaza andIsrael during that period. I had
special access, as I said, to alot of the refugee camps and the
Palestinians. And at that time,was able to report with my team,
report up to the coordinator. Sotherefore up to probably the
Secretary of State and a lot ofsenior leaders, British,
(38:50):
Canadian and others. They werereally reading and using, I
guess, what we were providingthem, which was kind of the
unfiltered thoughts orinformation that was transmitted
to me and my team because of thespecial access we had.
Bryan (39:06):
Okay. That sounds pretty cool. The next role you served
in was director generalcapability and structure
integration within the chief offorce development. Can you tell
us what this role involved?Because it is a bit of a
mouthful.
Jeannot (39:19):
It is and probably the role is as well, but in very
short and hopefully simpleterms, it's to evolve from
replacing what we have with thesame thing. For instance, we
have a helicopter, replace witha helicopter, we have a tank, we
replace to a tank. To looking atthe future and trying to
understand what capabilitieswill be required and which ones
(39:43):
will bring most values toCanadian allies and develop the
best advice possible for theChief of Defence staff to inform
the minister and government onwhat our needs are gonna be in
the future.
Bryan (39:56):
So basically looking at sort of either capability gaps
or future needs, whether that'sequipment that's becoming too
aged or places that we needcertain equipment that we don't
have and then advising the chiefdefense staff on the best course
forward and either acquiringthat or what the best options
(40:16):
are for that?
Jeannot (40:17):
Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. I mean, in in in more technical
terms, we talk about the futureoperating environment and its
implications. So what's thefuture going to look like?
And obviously it's Five Eyesexperts that think hard at that
and say, what are theimplications? And from there you
deduct, we call them conceptrequired capabilities, but what
are the capabilities or the highvalue war fighting roles we're
(40:38):
going to play? And we war gamethat with our allies. So again,
we try to look in the future, wewar game it. And then from there
we say these are the thingswe're going to need.
And then between allies we talkand that kind of informs what we
should be buying or procuringfor the future.
Bryan (40:56):
Okay, that makes sense. And you mentioned Five Eyes. Can
you just quickly explain whatFive Eyes is?
Jeannot (41:00):
Yeah, Five Eyes is a small community. So obviously
probably our closest ally areThe United States as people
know. But when you talk aboutFive Eyes, that's United States,
UK, Australia, New Zealand andCanada.
Bryan (41:14):
Awesome. So during this time, you helped develop Our
North Strong and Free, a defensepolicy update, which was
published in April 2024. Whatrole did you play in developing
this?
Jeannot (41:26):
Well, at the time, ended up be I was the acting
chief of force development. So Iended up being kind of the key
representative, if you want, ofthe vice chief of defense staff
and the chief of defense staffon the capabilities that we need
to be included in that defensepolicy update. My partner Raquel
Garbers, I work very closelywith ADM policy, so Assistant
(41:50):
Deputy Minister Policy wasdependent on that and there were
a few other team membersinvolved in that. So that small
team was probably leading thatwork over several months to try
to once again kind of clearlydefine the geopolitical
environment and therefore ensurewe include in the policy the key
(42:13):
capabilities we need, we know weneed. And then the language
explorer is used in there whichmeans there's other areas where
we think we need that, we justneed to explore and confirm
exactly what we need.
Obviously, there was a lot ofpeople involved in there,
treasury board, finance, our owncosters internally that played a
(42:34):
heavy role in getting us to thefinal product.
Bryan (42:38):
Was that a difficult task? It sounds pretty
intricate. There's a lot ofmoving pieces. Like how hard of
a task was this?
Jeannot (42:45):
I think it was a it was a very challenging task because
you're trying to to toharmonize, synchronize,
coordinate, I guess, the needsof an entire institution. While
we want to buy new capabilities,new platforms, shiny stuff, we
have to think about theinfrastructure, the ammo, just
(43:09):
all the other pieces that comewith it. And obviously, you need
to make choices becauseresources are limited. So it
leads to very difficultconversations and that explains
why these while we can produce adraft in a few months, it takes
several months after just tomake sure it's socialized with
ministers, with cabinet, witheverybody and to get to the
(43:32):
point where a government iscomfortable publishing it.
Bryan (43:36):
What are a couple key points in the defense policy
update that you worked on?
Jeannot (43:41):
Like, my my main piece in it, I I I think, was
obviously on the capabilities.But when I read it and I see the
words ready, relevant andresilient, I think, you know, we
went through a lot of iterationsof placemats to kind of look at
what capabilities we needed inwhat order. And I think coming
(44:02):
up with those words to helppeople visualize, we need to be
ready. The key thing is we needto be ready as a CAF to serve
Canada when the call comes.Obviously, need to be relevant
with allies.
We talked about Five Eyes andour partners. We need to be
relevant. If we go somewhere, weneed to be relevant. And the
whole resiliency piece, whichpeople are hearing about. I
mean, the world is unstable inmany areas and how can we be
(44:25):
more resilient as a CAF, but asa nation.
Bryan (44:29):
So you mentioned relevancy when it comes to our
allies and operating with ourallies. Can you give me some
examples of what that lookslike?
Jeannot (44:37):
So relevance has to do with all the pieces. So we need
the right pieces of equipment.But if you're talking like
communicating between ourselvesand with allies, so we need the
right equipment to communicateat the right security level. We
need the right logistics supportto move our assets where it
needs to be. We need to have theammo for our own assets.
(44:58):
So I would say probably selfsustaining. We're moving into a
world where where you move backto conventional operations where
I think as a Canadian ArmedForces, need to be able to self
sustain. To be relevant,sometimes we talk about
contribution warfare. We cansend some pieces, but if we want
to be relevant in this world, weneed to be able to be self
(45:20):
sustaining in the sense that webring the right capabilities,
but we can also do the logisticsand all the support piece that
comes behind it.
Bryan (45:29):
Okay. And would that also have to do with, for example,
you know, bringing an f 35 tothe fight versus bringing an f
18 and those types of things interms of relevancy, like the the
generation of fighters we'rebringing, the the capabilities
those have in terms ofcommunications?
Jeannot (45:45):
Yeah. Well, I mean, things are things are quickly
evolving. And I would say thebattlefield as we're seeing in
Ukraine is increasingly lethal.So, you know, we need to be able
to to bring capabilitiesforward, but make sure that
those capabilities are effectiveand are safe. So again,
obviously, if you're talkingabout F-thirty five and fifth
(46:08):
generation fighter, well, Imean, the fighter is a piece of
it, but there's a whole piece interms of communications,
intelligence, infrastructure,and everything else that comes
with it.
And that is that is therelevance piece, but that also
speaks to the resilience piece.
Bryan (46:27):
Can you tell me about some new capabilities that may
come to be as a result of thedefense policy update?
Jeannot (46:33):
Yeah. Well, I would like, I encourage, like, people
to go and and have a quick lookat, you know, our north strong
and free the up the the policyand quickly go through it. It'll
give you a good sense. But,obviously, there's pieces there
for families, for housing, thosekinds of things. In terms of
pure capabilities, there's afocus on how we're going to be
able to sustain our equipment,on ammunition, on space
(46:57):
capabilities to include SATCOM,tactical helicopters, cyber
submarines, airborne earlywarning, which should be
exciting to a lot of air forcepeople.
Bryan (47:06):
For sure.
Jeannot (47:06):
Long range land missiles and there's also, as I
spoke earlier, like exploringintegrated air and missile
defense, ground based airdefense, modern artillery or
main battle tanks and drones.It's worth having a look because
I think the policy reflectsquite well the work I talked
earlier about, about trying tolook into the future and
(47:29):
identify the kinds ofcapabilities we need.
Bryan (47:32):
Yeah, as that whole director general capability
instructor integration, likethat whole role of looking into
the future and trying toidentify what it is we're going
to need.
Jeannot (47:40):
And the people as well, right? Like when you read the
policy or if you're followingright now, there's a talk. We
need to obviously fill ourcurrent ranks. But, you know,
there's a there's anacknowledgment we're going to
need to grow. If we bring in allthese capabilities, we need new
people and we need, you know,different people, like the right
kind of people to to be able tooperate those those new
(48:03):
capabilities.
Bryan (48:04):
For sure. And I noticed you mentioned ground based air
defense. I know that must make alot of the army types out there
excited because I know there wasa lot of people who didn't like
it when we got rid of thatcapability. So that would be
huge.
Jeannot (48:17):
No. Absolutely. As we move back yeah. Sometimes we
divest the capabilities. Butagain, as as as the environment
evolves, there's a clear needfor some of these things.
So you're right. Those arecritical critical capabilities.
Bryan (48:31):
Well, for sure. And we got rid of that during
Afghanistan where there was noair threat. And now we're
looking at, as you said,conventional warfare where there
would be an air threat. Andthere's threats from not just
conventional aircraft, butdrones. So it'd be very
interesting to see how thatdevelops.
Jeannot (48:45):
Absolutely.
Bryan (48:46):
Okay, Janelle. That's gonna wrap up our chat for
today. I just wanna thank you somuch for your time. I know
you're a very busy guy. Thankyou so much for being on the
show, and we will talk to youfor the next one.
Jeannot (48:55):
Thanks, Brian.
Bryan (48:57):
Okay. That wraps up part two of our chat with Geno
Boucher, current chief of staff,chief professional conduct and
culture. For our next episode,we'll be sitting down for our
final part with Geno, where weget into the topic of his
current position as well as alarger discussion on culture
change within the Canadian ArmedForces. Do you have any
questions or comments aboutanything you've heard
Intro/Outro (49:16):
in this show? Would you or someone you know make a
great guest, or do you have a
Bryan (49:20):
great idea for a show?
Intro/Outro (49:21):
You can reach out to us at the
pilotprojectpodcast@Gmail.com oron all social media at at pod
pilot project. And be sure
Bryan (49:28):
to check out that social media for lots of great videos
of our RCAF aircraft. As always,we'd like to thank you for
tuning in and ask for your helpwith
Intro/Outro (49:36):
the big three. That's like and follow us on
social media, share with
Bryan (49:39):
your friends, and follow and rate us five stars wherever
you get your podcasts. That'sall for now. Thanks for
listening. Keep the blue sideup. See
Intro/Outro (49:49):
Engineer, shut down all four. Shutting down all four
engines.
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