What does it take to take on the responsibility of being the Chief of Staff Chief Professional Conduct and Culture (COS CPCC) in the wake of the larger culture change effort that the Canadian Armed Forces has pursued over the last 10 or more years? Why is culture change necessary, and what does it even mean within the context of the military? Major-General Jeannot Boucher is a helicopter pilot with over 3000 flight hours. He has the experience at the tactical and command level to understand what it means to operate, but also has dedicated himself to learning about our culture and what it means to change and evolve. Today we will discuss his current position as COS CPCC as well as a larger discussion on culture change within the Canadian Armed Forces, and finally we will end with some questions from the audience.
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Bryan (00:28):
Hey, everybody. It's your host, Brian Morrison here with
our standard RCAF senior officerpre episode commentary. We live
in a twenty four hour newscycle, and comments can be very
quickly overtaken by events. Soto put things in perspective,
this interview was recorded inearly January.
Intro (00:46):
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switches. Normal doors andhatches.
Jeannot (00:52):
Closed lay
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clear left. Engineer, startnumber two.
Turning two. Wing three one zeroten. Pilot project broadcast.
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Bryan (01:14):
Alright. We're ready for departure here at the pilot
project podcast, the best sourcefor stories and advice from RCAF
and Mission Aviation Pilotsbrought to you by Skies
Magazine. Today, we are back forpart three of our chat with Geno
Boucher, current chief of staff,chief professional conduct and
culture. Geno, welcome back, andthanks for being here today.
Jeannot (01:32):
Hey. Thanks, Brian. I'm happy to be back.
Bryan (01:34):
Listeners can check out part one for a discussion on his
early career as well as hisdeployment to Afghanistan. They
can check out part two for atalk about his early command
roles as well as his timecommanding task force Jerusalem
in support of Op Proteus in theWest Bank as well as his
involvement with the developmentof Our North Strong and Free.
For today's discussion, we'll begetting into the topic of
(01:56):
culture change as well as hiscurrent position as chief of
staff, chief professionalconduct and culture. Okay. So
we're gonna move into reallykind of the meat of this
discussion, which is talkingabout diversity and culture
change within the Canadian ArmedForces.
But before we dive into some ofthe work you've done in this
area, let's clear the air alittle. We've discussed this
before with colonel Coots, butsome people get really upset
(02:18):
when the topic of culture changecomes up. What would you say to
them to get them on board?
Jeannot (02:22):
Well, to me, say if we wanna build strong teams and
win, we need everybody to be atits best on the team. That that
in essence is what it is. Right?Like, I mean, we have a certain
number of people, they need tobe at their best. And I talked
about this, I think on theprevious podcast, but maybe in
bureaucracy, good is goodenough, but in war, like good is
not good enough.
(02:43):
We need great teams and that canonly happen through cohesion and
cohesion, what I've learned inthis work is you know you need
both psychological safety andaccountability. So it's not
about reducing standards andreducing accountability, it's
making people psychologicallysafe to speak up to bring their
best selves to work, butobviously holding them to
(03:05):
account to very high standards.That's how we're going to
achieve the the level we need inorder to be effective in
operations.
Bryan (03:13):
Can you explain what you mean when you talk about
psychological safety?
Jeannot (03:17):
Psychological safety in essence is just that trust, that
feeling of belonging that thatmakes you feel like you can
speak up and that you'll beheard, you'll be considered in
the decisions that happen. Sowhen somebody feels
psychologically safe and flightsafety is the best example. I
mean, if you're flying in a crewand you see something that you
(03:39):
think is potentially wrong ordangerous and you don't speak
up, obviously you're not helpingthe team. When we talk about
psychological safety in our workenvironment every day, if we see
something that we think isinappropriate or that we should
improve, we should speak up. Andif we create the right
environment where people feelpsychologically safe, they will
speak up.
Bryan (03:58):
And so essentially, I really like that you tied that
back into flight safety program.The flight safety program works
to make an environment wherepeople feel psychologically safe
in terms of speaking up aboutseeing something wrong or
preventing something fromhappening.
Jeannot (04:14):
Yeah. And flight safety is meant to be preventive, not
punitive in nature. So ifsomething wrong happens, we take
for assumption that nobody meantto do anything wrong. Right? So
what do we do?
We investigate with a view oflearning and making our
operations more effective, saferfor everybody. So what we're
trying to do in the culturespace is very much similar. It's
(04:38):
a bit it's different and it'sharder, right? It's more closer
to people's mind, but like atthe root of it, we're trying to
do the same thing in the culturespace.
Bryan (04:47):
So another thing I think is important as we move forward
here is to define a few terms.Can you define diversity, equity
and inclusion for us broadlyspeaking?
Jeannot (04:57):
I'll make a quick caveat as we go through this
whole next hour. But again,these are complex questions.
I'll answer my best but I willmake mistakes. I probably will.
So again, but I'll do my best.
So diversity to me is again likediversity to me is more than the
visible diversity, the ethnicdifferences or the color
(05:18):
differences. Diversity ofthought, diversity of
perspectives. To me, when youtalk about diversity, we all
have different experiences. Weneed to bring those experiences
in for the good of the team.When we talk about equity, it's
about eliminating barriers orcreating equal opportunity.
(05:38):
I mean, there's a lot of ways todo that, but one maybe simple
example I heard talking to afriend is a few years ago and I
think somebody coming from oneof the territories to have to
write an aptitudes test and theaptitude test has to do with
traffic lights and elevators. Sowhen you bring somebody that's
never actually been exposed totraffic lights and elevators and
(06:02):
you're judging his merit or hisopportunities based on that,
it's not equitable. So there'smany examples there, but it's
just about really understandingpeople and making sure we're not
losing out on amazing talent andamazing people because of
barriers we've put in place thatwe don't even we're not even
(06:24):
aware of. And inclusion is aboutdiversity. Even if you bring a
bunch of different people in aroom, it doesn't mean you're
being inclusive.
Being inclusive means they feelthey belong, they feel they can
speak up and they feel againthat their perspective is
valued. So maybe a trick butevery time you're running a
(06:44):
meeting people tend to likewe'll introduce people at table,
there's people back benchingaround and they're not
presented. So when you start ameeting, have people present
themselves so everybody feelsthat they're part of the meeting
and they can speak up and theyfeel so they feel included. So
hopefully that helps butdiversity, equity and inclusion
(07:07):
in very simple terms.
Bryan (07:09):
And it sounds to me like that last term inclusion is
really closely tied to thatconcept of psychological safety.
Jeannot (07:15):
Yeah, absolutely. I think it's both, right?
Psychological safety and thatsense of belonging when you talk
at culture again, how do we geteverybody to kind of have a
sense of belonging? Because onceyou feel you belong, you care.
And again, if you feelpsychologically safe, then
obviously you're gonna speak upand then the team will be
better, more effective becausewe're gonna have that that that
(07:39):
different input that that addedvalue.
Bryan (07:42):
%. So obviously, as we've said, we're gonna talk a lot
about diversity, inclusion,equity, and even eliminating
racism in the CAF, all of whichare projects you've worked on.
Again, these are terms that somepeople get quite sensitive
about. Why are they important ina war fighting organization and
why should they be a toppriority?
Jeannot (08:02):
To me, because wherever we're gonna compete or fight,
like, I wanna win. We need towin. The best we can do is make
sure everybody brings their bestselves and can make, you know,
the greatest contribution theycan to the team. So like, who
wouldn't want that? Like, whowant people who wouldn't want
people to get up in the morningand say, I wanna go to work.
(08:23):
I wanna work hard. I wanna bepart of this team and I wanna
make sure we win. That's what wewanna do. And consciously or
unconsciously, at times, we'rebehaving in ways or we're saying
things in ways that are kind ofimpeding that.
Bryan (08:36):
What would you say to people who think that the modern
military is being made soft bythese efforts?
Jeannot (08:43):
I believe deep down in what we're doing and anyone
that's played hockey with me orbeen with me in operations, I
think would not qualify me assoft. So I think everybody
feeling respected and that theythey belong is a good thing and
again, will work us towards agreat team. I talked about this
(09:06):
later but again, in sports, youlose the game. It's not such a
bad thing. On militaryoperations, we talked on the
previous one about Afghanistan.
I mean, the consequences or theliability is unlimited. So we
owe it to ourselves to to to tobring our the most the most the
strongest and the most effectiveteam together.
Bryan (09:27):
Yeah. I totally agree with that. I'm a big believer
that the more diverse our team,the more different opinions,
different experiences that wecan bring in and build, I feel
like it helps us to cover morecontingencies. People have will
think of different things.They'll they'll have different
ways of doing things, and itjust builds overall a stronger a
(09:48):
stronger team.
Jeannot (09:49):
When I when I when I deployed to Afghanistan and I
got told to put together the opscenter because we didn't have
one, you know, we were limitedon pilots. We needed all the
pilots, attack aviators to flyand be qualified. So I got told
you're going to put together anops center and brought in some
navigate some seekingnavigators, some air traffic
controllers, some med techs,basically a wide range of
(10:11):
background to work in operationsin an army in an operation
center that would be workingwith the army. I won't lie when
that happened, I was like, myGod, what are you asking me? But
when I look back, that's thebest thing that ever happened.
Air traffic controllers are usedto working with on emergencies.
They're used to running controlcenters. Navigators on Sea Kings
(10:31):
that live on ships, they canprovide you advice on how to run
24 shifts because they worktwenty four hour shifts all the
time. So all that to say thatall these people came with a
baggage and once they bought in,we train them. I mean, the team
in the end was probably well,was not probably was better than
if we put 10 tack aviators inthere.
Bryan (10:50):
Yeah. That makes sense to me for sure.
Jeannot (10:52):
And that's counterintuitive. Some of the
stuff we're doing now might becounterintuitive, but when you
think it through and you look atit closer, it becomes quite
obvious.
Bryan (11:01):
Yeah. I mean, like I said, to me, it's just something
that you think about it and it'spretty obvious that the more
differing experiences we bringin, the stronger team we'll
build. Yep. So you were directorgeneral culture change within
the chief professional conductand culture or CPCC from January
(11:21):
2023 to August 2024. As part ofthis, you led the development of
the Department of DefenseCulture Evolution Strategy.
What were the goals and keyelements of this strategy?
Jeannot (11:32):
I'm gonna try to keep keep this interesting. I won't
say simple, but I like notboring in the sense of but but
in essence, I think we are andwe had started dealing with
incidents. So if seriousincidents are happening, we're
reacting, we're dealing withthem. We are updating policies.
But we came to the conclusion wecan deal and be reactive and we
(11:53):
can update policies.
But the real change needs tohappen is in the mindset. So the
intent of the strategy is how dowe evolve the mindset? And then
there's a lot of information inthere, but there's an area where
we get to the big five, we callthem and you can have a look.
But in essence, talk about adiagnostic. We've asked all the
L1s, all like Army, Navy, AirForce, all our leaders to think
(12:19):
hard at their organization,their culture, to kind of do a
diagnostic and then to developtheir philosophy and a culture
plan.
How will they evolve theirculture? How will they close the
gap between our espoused valuesand the behaviors we're seeing?
And one really key aspect, wecall it vignettes or scenario
based, was just to ensure we'rehaving conversations because
(12:41):
people need to get comfortablebeing uncomfortable. A lot of
these subjects at times are veryuncomfortable but it's because
we don't understand, we're notinformed. So that's kind of in a
nutshell the intent of thestrategy, which has been in
implementation right now forover a year.
(13:02):
The other part was to bring astructure. So right now, L1s,
they have culture evolutioncoordinators, Think flight
safety officers. So again, theconcept is similar, right? You
have flight safety officers atthe unit at the wing level.
We're not all the way down tothe unit level for culture, but
the idea again is just toacknowledge that this is
important and to make sure we'reregularly talking about it, to
(13:25):
make sure we're we're not makingunnecessary mistakes and in this
case, misconducts.
Bryan (13:32):
You've used the term l one a couple of times. Can you
just let us know what that whatthat is?
Jeannot (13:36):
Yeah. So l ones is probably an Ottawa term, but
commander of the army, the airforce, the navy, CAN SOFCOM, but
then there's all the assistantdeputy ministers, material,
finance. There's over 20 L1s inOttawa. So we want to make sure
obviously the culture evolutionwe're trying to achieve this for
(13:57):
the entire institution. Sotherefore, we've worked with all
the L1s to make sure they allhave their their philosophy,
their plans that are guided oraligned with the overall defense
team strategy.
Bryan (14:12):
Okay. You mentioned that some of the vignettes that you
worked on involved topics thatsome people would find
uncomfortable, like just becausewe're maybe they're not
comfortable, they're not used todiscussing them and things. Can
you give me some examples of ofwhat those might be?
Jeannot (14:27):
There's a 50 of them and and they're available for
everybody to have thoseconversations, but they they
talk about racism, they talkabout transgender, they talk
about 2SLGBTQ, they talk aboutethics, they talk about toxic
leadership, they talk aboutalcohol, they talk about any
subject you can think. The ideais just to have a conversation.
(14:49):
The analogy I use is rules ofengagement. So right now, you
know, of engagement for thosethat have deployed, you read
them the first time, but theyonly really become true to you
when you really talk about themin a group and you actually live
them. So those vignettes arethere for that.
We can talk about a lot ofsubjects but once you're in a
(15:10):
small group and you discuss themaround a scenario, when you
argue it out and you heardifferent perspectives, it kind
of helps probably increase yourunderstanding of exactly what
we're talking about. And thenmaybe when something real
happens in your environment,you're going to see it. And
again, kind of that thatlearning process.
Bryan (15:29):
It's interesting that you mentioned alcohol simply because
we're gonna talk later and dosome questions from the
audience. Some of the questionsthat I didn't end up using did
have to do with alcohol use. AndI just wasn't aware that this
was that broad, that this wasalso called addressing things in
our culture like alcohol. Sothat's that's interesting. That
was something that was included.
Jeannot (15:49):
Well, think it's no surprise that, you know, when
you look at some of the causesof misconduct, you know,
oftentimes it's related toalcohol. So again, how do we
Intro (16:00):
For sure.
Jeannot (16:02):
If we educate and we help people on the safe or the
smart use of alcohol, then bydefault, we're in the prevention
space and we're reducing ideallyreducing the number of incidents
I guess we're seeing.
Bryan (16:14):
For sure. I think listeners will be really happy
to hear that because there was asurprising amount of questions
that were about that thatbasically said that that same
thing. Like, hey, alcohol leadsto a lot of these incidents.
Alcohol leads to a lot ofproblems within the CAF right
now. So what are we doing toestablish like a more
responsible culture around that?
So that's that's really cool tohear. So we're still talking
(16:38):
about the Department of DefenseCulture Evolution Strategy. What
were the biggest obstaclesencountered when developing and
implementing this strategy?
Jeannot (16:47):
I I would just say, I think we moved as an institution
from denial like a few decadesago to individual consciousness
to collective consciousness. AndI say that because I think the
biggest obstacles were kind offear of the unknown and lack of
understanding, not seeing it.People don't see it. And I'll
admit, I was the same. I didn'tsee it because I don't think I
(17:11):
was I didn't know how to see it.
But when you take a step back,it becomes obvious there's areas
of concern that we need to bebetter at and we need to enable
our people to be better at. Theanalogy you can use is an
elephant, right? Like, if youwant to look at an elephant and
you're by your own, like youstep back, you're just going to
(17:34):
see one side of the elephant. Weneed collectively, when we talk
about culture, to be four orfive people around that elephant
talking. And only by taking astep back and looking at all
sides of it Mhmm.
Can we really see it for what itis and then take the appropriate
actions.
Bryan (17:50):
Yeah. It's interesting that you talked about being one
of those people who didn't seeit. I think that a lot of us are
guilty not guilty of that, butare in that situation. And and
part of that, I think, is justthat, you know, like, looking at
you and I, for example, we'reboth white males. We're not
gonna get exposed to a lot ofthe downsides of issues with
(18:13):
culture, issues with diversity,inclusivity, all that stuff
because the system historicallywas designed around us.
So we have to be you have toconsciously make an effort to
take this on.
Jeannot (18:27):
Absolutely. When I was asked to ask selected, I guess,
to go to CPCC, I that's thequestion I asked myself. Why me?
Why me a straight white male?But the idea is to connect to
the operational community.
So me coming in as an operator,I need to understand, I need to
(18:48):
appreciate it. And then I needto be an ally, right? Because we
need to evolve from people thatwith lived experience will
communicate, but then we need toevolve to where people like me,
allies, make sure that themajority understand how
important it is and work to tryto see it. And once you see it,
(19:09):
I mean, most human beings aregood people and want to do the
right thing. I trust that ifpeople really see it and we
educate them well on what rightlooks like, that people will do
the right thing.
Bryan (19:20):
Yeah. I completely agree. So you mentioned that you as a
straight white male wereselected to kind of, I guess
I'll use the word lead to leadthis effort. Does the team have
a decent amount of diversitywithin it?
Jeannot (19:33):
Yeah, the team's extremely diverse. So team's
extremely diverse. So if youlook at all equity seeking
groups from racialized people to2SLGBTQI plus to people with
disability, women, the team isthe team is very, very diverse.
Bryan (19:50):
That's awesome to hear. And I I just think I think
that's important for thelisteners to hear that because I
think there's been how do I putthis? Like, there's been a few
photos, for example, of like,hey. This is our new diversity
team, and it was like all middleaged white guys. I think it's
good for people to hear like,hey.
(20:11):
This is a diverse team. This ispeople with lots perspectives.
Like, this isn't just our takeon it. This is a lived
experience that we're workingfrom.
Jeannot (20:18):
You know, I'll candidly say probably myself, probably
more of a minority in in in theteam, which is good. Like, I've
learned so much from I've rarelyin my life been a minority. I
talked a little bit when I wasfirst kind of headquarters in
the sense of a colonel with thearmy, but a minority kind of in
the culture space to realize theimpact of your words. And again,
(20:44):
like realizing how we can beloud in a room because we feel
very comfortable but when you'rea minority in a group, how it's
it's important for the otherpeople to make you feel included
and belonging so you can alsocontribute. So I kinda it's been
a tremendous learningexperience.
Bryan (21:02):
Yeah. That's really interesting. The whole concept
of like when you're themajority, it's easy to feel
comfortable to be loud in theroom. I just sort of pictured
myself, like, what would it feellike to be not in the majority,
which is generally somethingthat hasn't happened for me. And
I could see that you wouldquickly if if efforts weren't
being made, you could quickly befeel like a bit of an outsider
(21:24):
and maybe, like, you're youshouldn't be voicing your
opinions.
Jeannot (21:28):
Yeah. If you're a minority and you're by nature a
calm and introverted person,yes, you're you likely your
perspective will not be part ofthe solution, which is very
unfortunate. Right?
Bryan (21:40):
For sure. So for the Department of Defense Culture
Evolution strategy, what doesimplementing this strategy look
like? And is there a timeline tothe efforts?
Jeannot (21:50):
I mean, there's no timeline in the sense it's a
never ending it's a never endingendeavor. Right? But to me, the
best analogy for that is whatwe've called like the gym
analogy. Right. As human beings,we all want to be healthy.
We all want to see the doctorand get told we're healthy.
Bryan (22:05):
For sure.
Jeannot (22:06):
So what do we need to do to get healthy? You need to
exercise, you need to eat well,you need to hydrate, you need to
sleep. So when we put out thestrategy, we're kind of trying
to tell people develop yourplans to make sure again, you're
exercising, you're healthy,you're hydrating, you're
sleeping. And we trust that ifyou do that, when you do your
health card, it's gonna when youget your health card, you're
(22:26):
going to be healthy, right?Other analogy is obviously
what's the timeline?
Well, the first step wasprobably to put together the
building for the gym. Then thesecond step is to get machines
and weights in there. And thenit's to tell people or teach
people how to use it. Right. Andthen you get to the point where
if people understand it enough,they go to the gym because they
(22:47):
know it's good for them.
They know how to use themachines to exercise and then
they hydrate, they sleep andthey eat well and they're
healthy. Can you ever stop doingthat? Well, if you stop doing
it, you're going to regress,right?
Bryan (22:59):
For sure.
Jeannot (23:00):
So again, I think we put more resources into this
because we needed to kind ofraise the awareness, raise the
understanding and get throughthe inertia. And and and then
we'll figure out, and I thinkwe're eventually getting there
how to right size to make surewe just sustain and we don't
regress back.
Bryan (23:19):
So in that analogy of the gym, the the building, the
equipment, using the equipment,Where do you think we are with
this effort?
Jeannot (23:26):
I think we're at the point where the gym is there. I
think the equipment is in thegym, and I think our membership
is increasing.
Bryan (23:33):
Okay.
Jeannot (23:34):
Their membership is increasing, but the number of
people that are reallyknowledgeable about how to use
it all and are actually able totell others how to develop their
their programs is not quitewhere it needs to be. But I
think another year or two, and Ithink we'll I think we'll be
good.
Bryan (23:50):
For sure. And that's and these are like, culture change
takes time. Right? Culturechange doesn't happen overnight.
It's I I would imagine it'squite complex to develop and
change an organization'sculture, especially one that
relies on tradition for a lot ofits sense of belonging.
So I imagine there's ainteresting line to walk between
(24:14):
respecting our traditions andchanging our culture.
Jeannot (24:17):
Yeah, I think you're right. It takes a certain amount
of time. I mean, need to youcan't force it. So for people
with lived experience that havebeen harmed and that kind of
know what right looks like, wecan never move fast enough for
people that are digesting andassimilating and learning.
Sometimes it feels like too muchand we need to kind of navigate
(24:38):
that but understand again, likeculture evolution takes time.
We're about like, you know,evolving professional conduct
and ethics, and that's somethingwe've always done. Now we've
gone through a bit of a periodwhere we said, hey, we need to
pay more attention to this.
Bryan (24:53):
For sure. And and like you said, there are those two
groups. There's those livedexperiences and those people who
are trying to learn. And youhave to balance the needs
because you don't wanna alienateeither group. Absolutely.
So what was the biggest positivechange you witnessed during your
time leading these efforts?
Jeannot (25:09):
I think I kinda just alluded to it to be honest. It's
that kind of that thatcollective consciousness and
understanding. People arestarting to see it. There's more
and more people that see it.There was resistance at first.
Yeah. I think we've gone fromwhy to how. People were like,
why are we doing this? We're notgetting a lot of that anymore.
Bryan (25:27):
Okay.
Jeannot (25:28):
We go around, we consult, we talk to commanders,
we talk to chiefs, we talk toeverybody. And I think the why
now is not being questionedanymore. It's more on the how.
So they're like, okay, we getit. We understand it's
important.
How do we do this?
Bryan (25:39):
Yeah, for sure.
Jeannot (25:40):
And and that's been really positive. Now we have a
lot of tools. Now we need tofigure out how again, we need to
figure out how we use that gymequipment. We optimize it to
make sure we get the biggestbiggest benefit.
Bryan (25:52):
Yeah. That makes sense. You've got the buy in. It's just
about now educating people onhow to do it. Yeah.
So you're also responsible forinitiatives such as the CAF
employment equity program, humanrights policies, accessibility
plans, and programs for twoSLGBTQI plus members. How do
these initiatives aim to createa more inclusive environment
(26:12):
within the Canadian ArmedForces?
Jeannot (26:15):
Like, I think all those programs, policies, and plans
are there to, like, help usunderstand the why and help us.
I alluded to it, how do we thesimplest way to say it is how do
we remove as many barriers as wecan and how do we create equal
opportunity for everybody? Andthat's what all those policies
(26:37):
are aimed for. But a fewexamples may be that they kind
of help people visualize. One isour Canadian Forces Leadership
and Recruit School, forinstance, now where we're
selecting instructors, right?
So we're select instructors onspecific criteria on character
and the discussion on values andethics has evolved from
PowerPoint to discussions usingour scenarios, right? So there
(26:59):
are specific things like thatwe're doing. We're spending a
lot of time at the OSEDInstitute where people know that
this is where we train, educate,develop our NCOs and senior
NCOs. So they're spending a lotof time talking about this. And
I would say we've seen a greatevolution in command teams.
Obviously, General Carignanstarted this almost four years
ago now, but meeting commandteams now, we're really seeing
(27:23):
command teams, commanders andtheir senior chiefs really
understanding and focused on howto improve our environment.
Bryan (27:36):
Now you mentioned something there, I think it was
OCD Institution, is that right?
Jeannot (27:40):
Yeah, the OCD Institution is at the College
Mitar Royale de Saint Jean andthis is where all our I think it
starts at warrant but evensergeants, warrants, master
warrant officers and chiefs gothere and it's led by chiefs or
retired chiefs and that's wherewe kind of do the professional
development for those people.
Bryan (28:00):
Okay. So this is a big one. One of your goals in this
position was to approach thechallenge of eradicating
systemic racism within thedefense team. Can you explain
what systemic racism is?
Jeannot (28:13):
That's a that's a real, real tough one. But obviously,
when you're talking aboutracism, there's individual
racism, there's institutionalracism, there's structural
racism. So our policies andpractices, all that together
forms the system. So so how todefine that in simple terms? I
think most of what we do isbased on supporting the norm and
(28:38):
the norm is based on ourcolonial history.
It's just based on our history.Unfortunately, of our policies,
our practices have not evolved.So they benefit some groups over
others. Again, maybe one exampleis medical needs where right now
our calf medical needs aretailored to the norm. Therefore
(28:59):
to me and you, White straightmales mainly.
It's not tailored to indigenous,black and Asian people where we
have more of those people thatjust have unique needs. They
have unique illnesses. They'renot better, they're not worse.
They're just different andunique. And we need to again to
update our policies, ourpractices, the services we offer
to make sure again that we'retreating all of our people the
(29:23):
same way.
Bryan (29:24):
Mhmm.
Jeannot (29:25):
Not the same way, but equitably, I guess.
Bryan (29:27):
Yeah. For sure. What strategies were implemented and
what progress was made?
Jeannot (29:31):
There there's tons of things in place. There's there's
there's an anti racism resourcehub, but there's a culture
evolution resource center. Wewe've developed spectrums so
people understand what hatefulconduct is. There are tools for
commanding officers. There's anincident decision management
tool so people know how tonavigate and how to deal with an
incident and deal it at thelowest level.
(29:53):
Coaching program. We talkedabout vignettes and we're
working actively on a complaintstransformation and grievance
transformation. So how do wemake it easy for people to
report an incident or misconductand then we can send it to the
right people and deal with it atthe lowest level in a timely
fashion. It doesn't get worseover many years. We also have
(30:17):
the CCMSs, which I'll need tofind the acronym, but they're on
the 16 bases, which is pointwhere each of our members can go
there and they can communicatesome of the challenges they face
and they'll be guided to theright tools and services.
Bryan (30:32):
Okay. I think also something that's important for
people to understand with we wetalked about that concept of
systemic racism is that youmentioned it's built of, like,
different types of racism. Andsome of those, like, on a
personal level, someone, like,who's being racist, that one's
obvious. Right? Like, peoplegenerally now recognize that's,
(30:53):
hey, that's racist behavior.
But some of the other stuff is,like, less easy to recognize,
like, stuff that's baked intothe system that we don't like
you said, it's based on ourpast. It's based on kind of what
has worked for us so far. It'snot so obvious to people, and
it's not necessarily evenintentional. It's just this is
the way we've done it. But hey,these are the effects it's
having and we have to fix that.
Jeannot (31:14):
I would say like what comes to mind when you talk
about that is just unconsciousbias. Again, for me coming into
CPCC, like I underestimated howmany unconscious biases I had.
So even if I was trying to benice or polite, because I think
I always do, I was doingmicroaggressions and some people
will say, like, you know, likelike we're overstating that. But
(31:37):
no, the answer is no. When youget smart on that, like it's,
it's, you're being harmful orhurtful sometimes without doing
it on purpose.
And I think that's where, again,if people, if there's anything,
there's many things we can do.We talked about vignettes and
conversations, but unconsciousbias training, understanding
that you have biases. And again,once you're aware, you're going
(31:58):
to you're going to catchyourself doing it. I do now a
lot and then I can react, but Icouldn't at first because I just
wasn't aware.
Bryan (32:05):
Oh, it sounds like a a hugely steep learning curve,
especially for somebody who isin that position that that
you're in right now. Like, it'sa challenging position affecting
change, affecting culturalchange, and there's just sounds
like there's a lot to learn.
Jeannot (32:22):
You know, Gerard Carignan talks about anticipate,
learn and adapt. In this worldright now, we need to learn how
to anticipate, learn and adapt.And that comes from asking
questions, being vulnerable,reading. I'm an avid reader like
Reid, Reid. My old hockey coachagain and I get back to him
because he had a pretty goodimpact on my life.
(32:43):
He says, The day you stop tryingto get better is the day you
stop being good. So every day Ilearn there's one thing I fear.
Won't live long enough to knoweverything I'd like to know. So
get out there, ask questions andlearn. The people in this
culture space, like they want totalk to you.
They want to explain to you.They just want to feel like you
want to learn or you want tolisten. So if you're sincere and
(33:05):
you want to learn and listen,you know, they're going to
explain it to you and they'regoing to be very patient and
you're going to feel goodbecause you're going to know
something you didn't knowbefore.
Bryan (33:12):
For sure. You mentioned another term there and this is
like another one that people whoaren't aren't on board, aren't
totally sold on these conceptstend to react to, which is
microaggressions. Can youexplain what that is?
Jeannot (33:27):
I'm not the best to explain that, to be honest. But
to me, again, you might besaying a joke or you might be
talking about people and again,even trying to be kind. But
without knowing it's amicroaggression on them, it's
it's it's it makes them feellesser because of the comment
you made.
Bryan (33:46):
So it sounds like though essentially it's like it's
almost like small unintentionalways that you might make someone
feel uncomfortable or hurt.
Jeannot (33:55):
Exactly. Over time, imagine you're the only
racialized person or person fromthe 2SLGBTQI plus community on a
team and a team of 15 and theother 14 don't understand your
reality at all. So they might bejoking all day or saying things
and microaggressions, well,mean, just add up, right? So,
(34:17):
you know, one comment wouldn'tbe so bad, but if you're getting
10 a week over fifty weeks,well, that's 500 times in a
year. And again, that's what alot of these equity seeking
groups feel.
People with disability, 2SLGBTQIplus community, racialized
people, That's their reality.
Bryan (34:35):
So what would you say to someone who says, why should
those 14 people change theirways for one person?
Jeannot (34:43):
Because if in there in the calf, they're all about
being operationally effectiveand they're all about having a
strong team that will go outthere and deliver on the
mission. And right now, it'd bevery naive to think that you can
do that without that person. Tome, again, I I spoke earlier
about my hockey analogy on aprevious podcast about four
(35:03):
lines. Like if you want to,yeah, you can win one day
without that person. But ifyou're going to survive like a
thirteen month deploymentworking seven days a week, you
need every member to bring theirfull selves.
And that's not even talkingabout the fact that that person
might be your smartest cyberperson, your smartest IT person.
And right now, by not includinghim and not making him or her
(35:26):
feel they belong, you're losingout on maybe something that's
gonna be critical to themission.
Bryan (35:30):
For sure. Not to mention the fact that these people are
brothers and sisters in arms,right? Like, we're comrades.
Jeannot (35:36):
Like, we're we're a family, right? Like, I mean, to
me, people say, what'sleadership? Like, when we say
we're a family, you know, weneed to walk the talk. So if
we're a family, then that meansas a leader, every member of
your team is like one of yourchildren. And and I have a hard
time thinking how one would nottreat them, every one of them,
with the same with the samerespect and dignity.
Bryan (35:58):
Mhmm. So what would you say are the ongoing challenges
related to diversity, equity,and inclusion within the
Canadian Armed Forces?
Jeannot (36:06):
The the one thing I'd say to that right now, like
anywhere, like any organization,like any society, there's a lot
of great people and there's afew bad people. We need to get
to the point like flight safety,where when something is
inappropriate, we talk about it.And if it's minor, we adapt and
(36:27):
learn. But if it's major andit's a character flaw or
somebody that does not reflecttheir values and ethics,
unfortunately, we say you're notmade to be part of this
institution. Those challengeswill never go away.
We get 200 new recruits probablyevery week from various
backgrounds. We need to makesure again, we have people with
(36:48):
the right character. You'veprobably heard character
commitment and competent. Weneed competent people for sure.
We need committed people forsure but we need people with the
right character.
We need people that arerespectful, hardworking, good
leaders and you know, everybodycan make mistakes. We're not
about not making mistakes. We'reabout learning from our
mistakes. And again, if ifyou're unable to treat everybody
(37:10):
around you with respect anddignity, then unfortunately, I
don't think you're you're in aninstitution where you're
welcome.
Bryan (37:18):
You led the institutionalization of gender
based analysis plus or GBA plusenterprise approach across the
defense team. What role does GBAplus play in creating a more
equitable and inclusive militaryand why is it important?
Jeannot (37:31):
So assuming most of the people listening to this are Air
Force people, but I'm gonna talkabout intelligence preparation
of the environment. So if youunderstand it, that's awesome.
If not, as an Air Force person,you need to understand that. But
basically we wouldn't deployanywhere without understanding
the environment we're gettingin. How that works is you define
the environment, the effects,the threats, you come up with
(37:53):
Koa's, right?
Bryan (37:54):
Can you explain what a Koa is?
Jeannot (37:55):
Courses of action. Basically, how I'm going to do
this. And you look at geography,you look at terrain, you look at
the population, you look at allthese things. GBA plus or
intersectional analysis is kindof the relationship between a
bunch of identity factors. Soage, ethnic background, family
status, socioeconomic factors.
(38:16):
And there's a, you know, andthere's there you can be
advantaged or disadvantageddepending on how you look at it.
So to me, before you deploysomewhere, it's understanding
your team is doing kind of yourcultural preparation of the
environment. Who are my teammembers and what are the
effects? What are the threats?And what is the best way to
(38:37):
What's the best system?
What's the best way to employthis team to have maximum effect
on the battlefield? We're allabout, I think the easiest way
to understand how to go aboutoperations is understand,
decide, act. Well, GBA plus orintersectional analysis is key
to the understand piece. It'skey to understanding your team
(38:58):
and then you can go out, decide,and act in whatever environment
or mission you're sent to.
Bryan (39:03):
I really like that you related that back to the battle
space. I think that GBA plus isa you know, everyone had to do
their GBA plus training. It's aterm that gets thrown around a
lot and I think sometimesderisively. So it's good to
understand, like, why is thisimportant? How does this relate
back to the battle space?
And how does this relate to ourbusiness as warfighters?
Jeannot (39:24):
Yeah. It's it's it's all about this. The and the team
that works this knows that. Theywork with CJOC. They work with
with with people deployingbecause in the end, people
deploying need to under usunderstand their environment so
that they can define theirmission and their goals.
But they also need to understandtheir team to be aware about,
you know, the makeup of theirteam, to maximize that team, to
(39:46):
maximize the effect and tobenefit from all the diversity,
you know, of thought andexperience that's within their
team. If you're not doing that,you're definitely not putting
out the most effective or thestrongest team you can.
Bryan (39:58):
For sure. So finally, let's discuss your current role,
which is chief of staff CPCC. Itsounds similar. So how is this
role different from your role asdirector general?
Jeannot (40:09):
Yeah. It's it's basically I cored all the CPCC
activities. So we have the chiefof professional conduct and
culture, the assistant, thechief, like any organization as
the chief of staff. I just coredall the activities. There's five
DGs.
Bryan (40:23):
Which are director generals.
Jeannot (40:24):
That that's in essence my role. So hopefully, I've
learned from my time as directorgeneral culture and then I'm
trying to to enable the entireteam to implement what we're
trying to do.
Bryan (40:35):
So you're more setting the overall goals and
coordination and then lettingyour team make it happen?
Jeannot (40:41):
Well, I'm the chief of staff again. So my boss is is
lieutenant general Prevot, chiefprofessional conduct and
culture. So I co ord. I provideoptions. And then based on his
decisions and direction andguidance, yes, the director
generals, they go out and theyexecute.
Bryan (40:57):
Okay. What are your current priorities as chief of
staff?
Jeannot (41:00):
I'll just make a quick snap. Like, we talked a lot
about the flight safety mindset.So I want us to get to that. But
I would say the priorities arecomplaints transformation and
grievance transformation. Weneed to create the mechanism to
make it easy for people toreport and for us to kind of
send that to the right people sowe can address those in a timely
(41:22):
fashion.
And then we can learn from thatand become kind of as an
institution become self awareand preventive. That's really
what the focus is at this pointfor CPCC.
Bryan (41:32):
Okay. So you've mentioned before that you have a son in
the calf. How does that motivateyou when it comes to your work
with CPCC?
Jeannot (41:41):
Well, I think it just makes it extra more important
that you get to a certain rankin the institution when it's
about giving back. Right now I'mtrying to give back and make
sure I leave the institutionbetter than it was so people can
have the same amazing career Ihave. Obviously, the fact that I
have a son that's a lieutenantjust makes that even more real
(42:05):
to me. Plus all his friends,right? I've gotten to know all
his friends intimately.
So there's a lot of young peoplethat I've encouraged, I've
mentored, and I feel responsibleto try to to make this place as
as exciting and as good as itcan be.
Bryan (42:20):
Do you find that having that connection with your son
who's a lieutenant and hisbuddies, does that help kind of
connect you with what areyounger people thinking about
culture and and that sort ofthing right now?
Jeannot (42:32):
Yeah, I think it does. And and it it does a lot of
things. One is obviously we'redealing with important issues,
but but to young people down,like, just want to be able to do
their job. We need to get themthe resources. We need to get
them a mission and we need toget them out there doing their
jobs.
They should they should listenand obviously make sure we're
creating the right environmentand the right culture. But they
should be focused on that andcreating effective teams and
(42:55):
doing their jobs and having fun.Yeah, they'll have their chance
in a few years to kind of comedeal with these problems. That's
what I'm reminded of as well. Ithink back when I had their age
and life was easier andhopefully our young people keep
it simple.
Obviously, they treat everybodyaround them the way they should,
but they just focus on on havingfun and doing their job.
Bryan (43:18):
Mhmm. Where do you see the Canadian Armed Forces going
in the future in terms of itsculture?
Jeannot (43:24):
I think culture evolves with the environment. So again,
the world is increasinglycomplex and interconnected. Our
population is increasinglydiverse. So like where we go is
we need to evolve ourprofessional conduct and ethics
(43:45):
to to reflect that reality. SoI.
Like, that's the way I look atit. I want a calf. I want a
defense team where everybodytreats everybody with respect
and dignity and where everybodyhas the moral courage to speak
up when something inappropriatehappens. So we fix it at the
(44:05):
lowest level for the team to bestronger. That's first.
But if it's serious, then wedeal with it appropriately.
Those are the two things. Treateverybody with respect and
dignity and have the moralcourage. Like if you see
something inappropriate and youdon't talk, then you're failing
the team, right? Like you'refailing that person.
That person's going be harmedand that's awful. But people are
saying why this culture thingbecause we're about operations.
(44:27):
Well, you're failing the team.Therefore, you're putting your
team at risk on operations by byby letting that go.
Bryan (44:36):
What's the thing you're most proud of implementing
within the CAF?
Jeannot (44:40):
It seems simple, but that's a really hard question
for me to answer. Like, to me isleaving a profit. Like, every
step of the way, I've just triedto make things a little bit
better. I've tried to enablepeople to achieve their goals.
So the things I'm most proud of,I think the thing I'm most proud
of is I have a lot of peoplecalling me from all ranks and
(45:03):
asking me for advice, asking mefor support.
And then I feel I have theirtrust to help them achieve their
goals. So I think that's that'swhat I'm most proud of.
Bryan (45:12):
Yeah, I like that.
Jeannot (45:13):
That's what I'm I'm going to retire someday. That's
what I'm going to miss the mostis that that that connection
with people and that ability tojust like at this rank, but
throughout my career. But now ifthere's like, if there's one
reason I like rank is is itenables me to hopefully make a
difference, a positivedifference in the life of
people.
Bryan (45:31):
Gives you a chance to step into that space as a
mentor.
Jeannot (45:34):
Yeah.
Bryan (45:36):
So you mentioned retirement. What do you see as
your endpoint in the CAF andwhat comes next for you?
Jeannot (45:41):
I think I talked about it earlier. I think I'm all
about doing the best I can. I'mI'm awful at predicting the
future. So you got my four zerothree story about me never
wanting to be close to the armyand never in my mind would have
thought I'd be in the cultureand the people space. So I'm
awful at predicting the future.
I'm still passionate aboutlearning. I'm passionate about
(46:03):
reading. I'm passionate aboutcoaching. So I'm going to do the
best I can and continue playingmy role within the CAF as long
as I'm in uniform. But evenafter that, I want to keep
serving this country and I'llfind a way to hopefully help
guide young people like it wasdone for me when I was young and
that enabled me to achieve mygoals.
Bryan (46:25):
Alright. So next we're gonna do some questions from the
audience. I always try to dothis when I I feel like we have
on this show privileged accessto sometimes people of senior
ranks, and I like to try toenable some people to to kinda
talk with you guys. So the firstone we got is a bit spicy. Why
does conduct and professionalculture need a major general in
(46:48):
charge of it?
What does the office provideother than a reminder that
racism, sexism, assault,etcetera are bad?
Jeannot (46:54):
Listen, we resource what's important to us. And I
think right now we've beentalking for a couple hours over
the last two podcasts, and Ithink we all want to be
effective and we wanna win oncewe're faced, you know, with
battle. And I think for that, weneed everybody and we need
everybody to be their best. Sowe have the resources we have
(47:17):
because it's that important.
Bryan (47:20):
So this is another tough one. A 2022 study on sexual
misconduct in the forces notedthat sixty one percent of
members considered sexualmisconduct to be a problem in
the CAF. However, ninety sixpercent of members strongly or
somewhat agreed that it isunderstood by their unit that
sexual misconduct has no placein the calf. So broadly
(47:41):
speaking, what we have is thatindividuals largely report a
positive environment in theirimmediate units yet still
perceive this as a calf widesystemic issue. So why do you
think that is?
Jeannot (47:52):
I think we all agree on our espoused values. I think we
all agree on those. So when wetalk, we all agree. But I think
if we look really hard, we seethat there's a gap between those
values and the behaviors we seeacross the institution. The
statistics show it.
How do we close that gap? So tome, that's what this means and
(48:13):
that's what we're trying totackle. And how do you tackle
that? You increase awareness,you increase understanding, you
enable conversations and youprovide the tools. You raise
those issues to the surface andeventually you're able to deal
with them and hopefully youclose that gap.
The statistics become 90% ofpeople know what's important and
(48:35):
85% of people feel we'rebehaving in a way that's
consistent with that.
Bryan (48:40):
Mhmm. I wonder also that 96% who essentially think things
are good in their immediatearea. We talked a little bit
about how like the majority ofus tend not to be the people who
are affected by it. So it couldalso be that they just don't
notice some of the stuff that'sa problem.
Jeannot (48:57):
You just don't see it. Like, I think I was part of
that, right? Like, I was totallypart of that. Didn't see it. I
like I'm like, well, I'm hearingall this and I'm not seeing it.
But you have to take a step backand you have to realize again
what your unconscious biasesare. You have biases, therefore
you're just not seeing it. Andif you take a step back, you
(49:18):
start seeing it. And when youstart seeing it, you start
realizing, my God, we're we'reharming our own people in a way
that is preventable and in a waywhere we're losing talent and
and and we can't afford it rightnow. We wanna recruit.
We wanna retain. We can't affordto lose the talent we have.
Bryan (49:36):
For sure. For sure. And and speaking of retention, we
know that's a hot topic in theCAF currently. What initiatives
is CPCC working on to establisha culture of retention?
Jeannot (49:46):
So we talked about our our our policy, and the key
piece in our policy isreadiness. So right now our
focus is how can we be ready inthe event of a global conflict?
Like we need to be ready. Andthe four parts of readiness are
people, equipment, training andsustainment. The people piece
has two aspects.
(50:07):
It's got recruitment and it'sgot retention. So what's the
CPCC role? It's everything wetalked about. It's creating the
environment that we can bring inall the talent and we can retain
all the talent. That's whatwe're actively working on.
We're trying to make the CAF orthe defense team an awesome
place to work where you feel youbelong, you feel valued and you
(50:28):
feel you come in every day andyou contribute. That's our part
in CPCC. Then Chief of MilitaryPersonnel, CMP, they're focused
with Associate Deputy Ministerof Human Resources on how do we
recruit talent and how do weretain talent. Because we were
talking about microaggressionsearlier And when you have
microaggressions, what we'reseeing is we can bring in
(50:50):
diversity, we can bring intalent. We lose these people
after seven or eight years.
Why? I think it's theaccumulation of those
microaggressions and and thefact again that we're not as
inclusive as we think we are.
Bryan (51:05):
Okay. How does the CPCC find a way to connect with and
listen to the future of the CAF?In other words, the privates,
corporals, officer cadets,second lieutenants, and other
junior members?
Jeannot (51:17):
Everywhere, every way you can imagine. We consulted
about 19,000 people or GeneralCarignan CPCC. We have defense
advisory groups running townhalls, social media, emails,
junior member advisory councils,every way we can. And if there's
suggestions, let us know. Likewe want to connect with CAF
(51:38):
members.
We want to understand. We wantto make the changes. I'm old. I
have a 24 year old son, so Iunderstand through him. But I'm
aware that I need to understandthe realities of everybody
across the institution if wewanna make changes that will
make a difference.
Bryan (51:54):
So it sounds like there's lots of efforts going on with
that.
Jeannot (51:57):
Yes.
Bryan (51:59):
How does the CPCC view Madame Arber's report on sexual
misconduct in leadership? TheCAF agreed with all
recommendations. What concreteorders have been given to take
action on these recommendations?
Jeannot (52:10):
So again, the actions speak louder than words. So we
have a comprehensiveimplementation plan. So there's
those recommendations plusothers, two zero six of them
that we're activelyimplementing. And there's an
external monitor and people readthe latest report. You know,
findings that that weregenuinely invested in making in
(52:33):
implementing the recommendationsand making a difference.
So I think we have a plan signedby the minister. We're reporting
on it, and we're trying toimplement all those
recommendations in the spiritwithin which they were written.
So I don't think we can be moreserious than we are about this.
Bryan (52:51):
So essentially, not only are we implementing them, but
there's also external externalmonitors happening to make sure
that we're implementing them.
Jeannot (52:59):
Yes. And we continue to engage with academics, with
people with lived experience,people from those communities.
So is it perfect? No, right.Don't take my comments as saying
we got this.
It's all perfect. But we'retrying really hard. And if we're
not meeting the mark, thenpeople, you know, getting back
to your previous question, weneed people to tell us, hey, we
get what you're trying. You'renot hitting the mark. You're not
(53:20):
understanding the real issue.
So it's a it's a yeah, it's adialogue that needs to continue.
That's never ending.
Bryan (53:29):
So this is a tough one. Can you give an example of when
you made a mistake or causedharm as a leader and what
personal changes you made as aresult?
Jeannot (53:38):
You know what? Like, the story that comes to mind are
my two first weeks in CPCC. Iwent in there thinking if
there's one thing I'm good at, Ithink is connecting with people
and and building trust withpeople. After two weeks,
remember having dinner with mywife and saying, I don't know if
(53:58):
I'm going to succeed becausejust because of all my
unconscious biases and thelanguage I was using, I think I
was I was yeah, I was I I wasdoing microaggressions, I think
on people not on purpose. Sowhat did I do?
I started asking questions. Istarted telling people, help me.
(54:19):
I educated myself. I've beenreading on it just again to kind
of be more aware, to be moreconscious, more mindful of my
environment. Right now I'm muchbetter for it and I'm trying to
help the rest of the people doit.
So we focus a lot on bigmistakes or big misconducts,
which are totally unacceptablewe need to deal with. But I
(54:41):
think the real value, the realmoney is on dealing with those
small incidents and misconductsat the lowest level in a tiny
fashion to make sure we make theteam better at the lowest level.
Bryan (54:55):
Yeah. And just to make people feel safe on a everyday
basis.
Jeannot (54:58):
Absolutely. Yep. Like, I mean, we're we're a big team
made of small teams. Right? Itstarts with section.
So, I mean, I I dream of goingback to having my section or
eight or 10 people, knowing themall personally and just making
that team the most agile, themost effective, the most honest
and transparent team out there.Right? And then so so again, we
(55:20):
can put in policies. We can dostuff in Ottawa, but like all
people probably listening tothis podcast, they're all
leading teams at their levels.And even if they're part of the
team, right?
Because it's not only theleaders or the bosses job to to
create the environment. It'severybody's job to lead in the
culture space.
Bryan (55:38):
What are we doing to establish a better culture of
integration with reservists andto ensure they are treated
equally with full time members?
Jeannot (55:45):
That's an ongoing effort as well. Obviously, we
work with the chief of thereserves and we're trying to
make reserves fully integratedin what in everything we do. My
mind space on this brings meback to when I was CO four
thirty squadron and I had like200 Regforce people, but 75
reservists. And my logisticsflight was made of 11 Regforce
(56:07):
and 18 reservists. Mymaintainers, I had a lot of
reservists because I had peoplethat were sergeants or warrants
that would retire in the areabut stay in as reservists.
So I believe in the value ofreservists and anybody that
would have visited the squadronwould not have been able to tell
the difference between a regforce and a reservist. So I just
think we need that total forcemindset and that applies to
(56:30):
contractors, to other partners,to industry as we move forward.
I mean, once again, warfare isincreasingly complex,
multifaceted, and it requiresall part of society. So we to we
need to definitely integratereserves, but I think we need to
even go further.
Bryan (56:50):
So finally, for the last question from the audience, did
you choose to be chief of staffCPCC? And what is your end goal
before you leave the position?
Jeannot (57:02):
I didn't choose to be chief of staff CPCC, but I think
it was a logical evolution forcontinuity. General Carignan was
obviously the the person thatstood up. CPCC was moving on.
The the associate CPCC had movedon. So basically, lot of people
had moved on.
So for continuity, I stayed onas chief of staff. Rear Admiral
(57:22):
Jacques Olivier stayed on asdirector general culture because
he was the DG of professionalconduct and he'd been there
since the start. So it was tobuild in build in continuity.
Bryan (57:31):
Okay. That makes sense. And do you have a goal before
you leave the position?
Jeannot (57:35):
I think I've said it is instill a flight safety mindset
into culture. Have people trustthat they can report and that
things will be dealt with andthat the teams will be stronger
and will be a more effectivemilitary.
Bryan (57:48):
Right on. Alright. So we're down to our classic last
three questions. You have held alot of impressive positions over
the course of your career anddone a variety of mission sets
both in the cockpit and behind adesk. What is the one thing you
do to stay ready for your job?
Jeannot (58:04):
I think I'm gonna give you more than one, but the top
one that comes to mind is askquestions and read.
Bryan (58:10):
Okay.
Jeannot (58:10):
I just ask questions. I'm curious and I read. I read
everything people tell me toread. But that second one I'd
say is focus on what I controland let things take me where
they need. Right?
So not focus on the end stateall the time. It's focus on what
I control and setting the rightconditions. That's the two
things I think I I stay true to.
Bryan (58:30):
Yeah. I like that. Especially the reading bit is
such a challenge these days. Ithink we're so used to consuming
media in a lot of differentforms. And it's so it's
important to still stay in thebooks and whatever that means
for you at at the thing you'reworking on.
Right? Like, whether that's fornew pilots to stay in the books
for their systems or tactics orwhen you're at a more of a a
(58:55):
level that you're at reading thevarious books that you've been
reading to to learn aboutculture change and all those
things. It's important.
Jeannot (59:02):
Yeah. I think you picked on something really
important. So as a captain,you're right. Reading but become
the best pilot or air crew orwhatever trade. So master the
fundamentals.
And I would say I really startedreading academically in my
masters, I think at 28 or 29. Sothe first few years are become
the best at your craft. That'sthe role of a junior or NCM or
(59:22):
junior officer. But theneventually you need to want
learn about everything else. Ilike to understand the essence
of things so I'm probably oldschool but I try to read books
and really understand theessence of things and kinda make
up my own mind on what rightlooks like based on that level
of reading but that's me.
(59:45):
You've worked with a lot
Bryan (59:46):
of pilots throughout your career and have over three
thousand flying hours in yourlogbook. What qualities do you
think make an excellent pilot?
Jeannot (59:53):
There's a lot, but I think if I distill it down to
three or four like disciplined,humble, humble. Like to me as a
pilot, I learned to fail like,you know, through high school,
everything was easy but as apilot, I learned to be humble. I
learned you can fail and thenyou got to get back up and just
keep going. Then I learned thatin various other jobs, be
(01:00:15):
decisive. Like it's one thing tothink and to talk, at one point
someone needs to decide.
And the last one is know yourrole. And that's at all levels.
Like, know your role within thecrew, know your role within the
unit, know your role within theformation. And based on that
role, where should you be today?And then be there and do the
right thing.
Bryan (01:00:36):
Mhmm. I like that. So finally, you've come a long way
in your career, but likeeveryone at some point, you
started as a brand new pilot.What advice would you give to
today's pilot still on the line,either those who are new or
maybe even on their second tour?
Jeannot (01:00:51):
Like, I think the future is super exciting, very
honestly, especially in the airforce, and you can have a fun
and really rewarding career. Iwould say the mines like a
parachute, so it works a lotbetter when it's open. So keep
an open mind throughout yourwhole career and make the most
of every opportunity. Theopportunities are going to pop
up all over. You got to jump onall of them.
(01:01:13):
I talked about it earlier, butthe day you stop trying to get
better is the day you're goingto stop being good. You got to
keep learning. You got to bekeep improving and you need to
be aware and mindful of yourenvironment and take care of the
people around you. I thinkthat's critical. Yeah.
(01:01:33):
The future of the air force isamazingly bright and you're
going to have your own uniqueset of challenges and
opportunities. If I could, Ithink I'd do it all over again.
Even if I didn't join, I guess,to be a pilot reflecting back, I
joined again and I do it allover again.
Bryan (01:01:50):
Yeah, for sure. I know that's like the old cliche,
right? It's an exciting time tobe in the air force, but man,
with the new capabilities thatare coming online, it's gonna be
really cool.
Jeannot (01:01:59):
Listen, at my level, I think, and that's what I'm there
for. Like, we wanna make theenvironment as best as it can
be. We need to get morecapability. We need more ammo.
We need more money.
And that's, you know, that'skind of my job. But again, if
you're just joining right nowand you're on unit on our new
aircraft and deployed to Latvia,deployed to wherever you're at,
(01:02:20):
like, just get out there andlearn your job and and have fun.
Bryan (01:02:26):
Well, Janong, this has been a lot of fun. I really
appreciate you taking the timeout of your very busy schedule
to be here. We've put a lot ofprep in behind the scenes for
this and I just appreciate youinvesting that time and making
this a great interview. So thankyou so much for being here
today.
Jeannot (01:02:42):
Thanks, Brian. I had a lot of fun. Thanks for the
opportunity. This was aprivilege to be able to share
that. And as always, I'm alwaysopen to critiques and to
questions from people listeningbecause in the end, we are
sincere and genuine about,wanting to understand and
wanting to make things better.
Thanks, Brian.
Bryan (01:02:59):
Yeah. It was my pleasure. Alright. That wraps up our three
part series with major generalGeno Boucher, chief of staff,
chief professional conduct andculture on his career as well as
culture change within theCanadian Armed Forces. For our
next episode, we'll be sittingdown with a repeat guest.
Listeners may remember major DanConway from episode five where
(01:03:22):
we discussed his role as aninstructor on the phase three
multiengine course. Dan is goingto return to the show. We're
going to discuss his career, hisearly days in training, as well
as his operational days. Andfinally, we'll finish with a
discussion on the future offixed wing search and rescue,
including the CC two nine fiveKingfisher. Do you have any
questions or comments aboutanything you've heard in this
(01:03:43):
show?
Would you or someone you knowmake a great guest, or do you
have a great idea for a show?You can reach out to us at the
pilot project podcast at Gmaildot com or on all social media
at at pod pilot project. And besure to check out that social
media for lots of great videosof our RCAF aircraft. As always,
we'd like to thank you fortuning in and ask for your help
with the big three. That's likeand follow us on social media,
(01:04:05):
share with your friends, andfollow and rate us five stars
wherever you get your podcasts.
That's all for now. Thanks forlistening. Keep the blue side
up. See you.
Intro (01:04:16):
Engineer, shut down all four. Shutting down all four
engines.
This podcast is presented by Skies Magazine. If
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(00:21):
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Bryan (00:28):
Hey, everybody. It's your host, Brian Morrison here with
our standard RCAF senior officerpre episode commentary. We live
in a twenty four hour newscycle, and comments can be very
quickly overtaken by events. Soto put things in perspective,
this interview was recorded inearly January.
Intro (00:46):
Fuel and ignition switches on RPM switches. Set TV
switches. Normal doors andhatches.
Jeannot (00:52):
Closed lay
Intro (00:53):
down. Strobe lights On. Pre start checking. Complete
clear left. Engineer, startnumber two.
Turning two. Wing three one zeroten. Pilot project broadcast.
Clear takeoff. Runway three oneleft.
Bryan (01:14):
Alright. We're ready for departure here at the pilot
project podcast, the best sourcefor stories and advice from RCAF
and Mission Aviation Pilotsbrought to you by Skies
Magazine. Today, we are back forpart three of our chat with Geno
Boucher, current chief of staff,chief professional conduct and
culture. Geno, welcome back, andthanks for being here today.
Jeannot (01:32):
Hey. Thanks, Brian. I'm happy to be back.
Bryan (01:34):
Listeners can check out part one for a discussion on his
early career as well as hisdeployment to Afghanistan. They
can check out part two for atalk about his early command
roles as well as his timecommanding task force Jerusalem
in support of Op Proteus in theWest Bank as well as his
involvement with the developmentof Our North Strong and Free.
For today's discussion, we'll begetting into the topic of
(01:56):
culture change as well as hiscurrent position as chief of
staff, chief professionalconduct and culture. Okay. So
we're gonna move into reallykind of the meat of this
discussion, which is talkingabout diversity and culture
change within the Canadian ArmedForces.
But before we dive into some ofthe work you've done in this
area, let's clear the air alittle. We've discussed this
before with colonel Coots, butsome people get really upset
(02:18):
when the topic of culture changecomes up. What would you say to
them to get them on board?
Jeannot (02:22):
Well, to me, say if we wanna build strong teams and
win, we need everybody to be atits best on the team. That that
in essence is what it is. Right?Like, I mean, we have a certain
number of people, they need tobe at their best. And I talked
about this, I think on theprevious podcast, but maybe in
bureaucracy, good is goodenough, but in war, like good is
not good enough.
(02:43):
We need great teams and that canonly happen through cohesion and
cohesion, what I've learned inthis work is you know you need
both psychological safety andaccountability. So it's not
about reducing standards andreducing accountability, it's
making people psychologicallysafe to speak up to bring their
best selves to work, butobviously holding them to
(03:05):
account to very high standards.That's how we're going to
achieve the the level we need inorder to be effective in
operations.
Bryan (03:13):
Can you explain what you mean when you talk about
psychological safety?
Jeannot (03:17):
Psychological safety in essence is just that trust, that
feeling of belonging that thatmakes you feel like you can
speak up and that you'll beheard, you'll be considered in
the decisions that happen. Sowhen somebody feels
psychologically safe and flightsafety is the best example. I
mean, if you're flying in a crewand you see something that you
(03:39):
think is potentially wrong ordangerous and you don't speak
up, obviously you're not helpingthe team. When we talk about
psychological safety in our workenvironment every day, if we see
something that we think isinappropriate or that we should
improve, we should speak up. Andif we create the right
environment where people feelpsychologically safe, they will
speak up.
Bryan (03:58):
And so essentially, I really like that you tied that
back into flight safety program.The flight safety program works
to make an environment wherepeople feel psychologically safe
in terms of speaking up aboutseeing something wrong or
preventing something fromhappening.
Jeannot (04:14):
Yeah. And flight safety is meant to be preventive, not
punitive in nature. So ifsomething wrong happens, we take
for assumption that nobody meantto do anything wrong. Right? So
what do we do?
We investigate with a view oflearning and making our
operations more effective, saferfor everybody. So what we're
trying to do in the culturespace is very much similar. It's
(04:38):
a bit it's different and it'sharder, right? It's more closer
to people's mind, but like atthe root of it, we're trying to
do the same thing in the culturespace.
Bryan (04:47):
So another thing I think is important as we move forward
here is to define a few terms.Can you define diversity, equity
and inclusion for us broadlyspeaking?
Jeannot (04:57):
I'll make a quick caveat as we go through this
whole next hour. But again,these are complex questions.
I'll answer my best but I willmake mistakes. I probably will.
So again, but I'll do my best.
So diversity to me is again likediversity to me is more than the
visible diversity, the ethnicdifferences or the color
(05:18):
differences. Diversity ofthought, diversity of
perspectives. To me, when youtalk about diversity, we all
have different experiences. Weneed to bring those experiences
in for the good of the team.When we talk about equity, it's
about eliminating barriers orcreating equal opportunity.
(05:38):
I mean, there's a lot of ways todo that, but one maybe simple
example I heard talking to afriend is a few years ago and I
think somebody coming from oneof the territories to have to
write an aptitudes test and theaptitude test has to do with
traffic lights and elevators. Sowhen you bring somebody that's
never actually been exposed totraffic lights and elevators and
(06:02):
you're judging his merit or hisopportunities based on that,
it's not equitable. So there'smany examples there, but it's
just about really understandingpeople and making sure we're not
losing out on amazing talent andamazing people because of
barriers we've put in place thatwe don't even we're not even
(06:24):
aware of. And inclusion is aboutdiversity. Even if you bring a
bunch of different people in aroom, it doesn't mean you're
being inclusive.
Being inclusive means they feelthey belong, they feel they can
speak up and they feel againthat their perspective is
valued. So maybe a trick butevery time you're running a
(06:44):
meeting people tend to likewe'll introduce people at table,
there's people back benchingaround and they're not
presented. So when you start ameeting, have people present
themselves so everybody feelsthat they're part of the meeting
and they can speak up and theyfeel so they feel included. So
hopefully that helps butdiversity, equity and inclusion
(07:07):
in very simple terms.
Bryan (07:09):
And it sounds to me like that last term inclusion is
really closely tied to thatconcept of psychological safety.
Jeannot (07:15):
Yeah, absolutely. I think it's both, right?
Psychological safety and thatsense of belonging when you talk
at culture again, how do we geteverybody to kind of have a
sense of belonging? Because onceyou feel you belong, you care.
And again, if you feelpsychologically safe, then
obviously you're gonna speak upand then the team will be
better, more effective becausewe're gonna have that that that
(07:39):
different input that that addedvalue.
Bryan (07:42):
%. So obviously, as we've said, we're gonna talk a lot
about diversity, inclusion,equity, and even eliminating
racism in the CAF, all of whichare projects you've worked on.
Again, these are terms that somepeople get quite sensitive
about. Why are they important ina war fighting organization and
why should they be a toppriority?
Jeannot (08:02):
To me, because wherever we're gonna compete or fight,
like, I wanna win. We need towin. The best we can do is make
sure everybody brings their bestselves and can make, you know,
the greatest contribution theycan to the team. So like, who
wouldn't want that? Like, whowant people who wouldn't want
people to get up in the morningand say, I wanna go to work.
(08:23):
I wanna work hard. I wanna bepart of this team and I wanna
make sure we win. That's what wewanna do. And consciously or
unconsciously, at times, we'rebehaving in ways or we're saying
things in ways that are kind ofimpeding that.
Bryan (08:36):
What would you say to people who think that the modern
military is being made soft bythese efforts?
Jeannot (08:43):
I believe deep down in what we're doing and anyone
that's played hockey with me orbeen with me in operations, I
think would not qualify me assoft. So I think everybody
feeling respected and that theythey belong is a good thing and
again, will work us towards agreat team. I talked about this
(09:06):
later but again, in sports, youlose the game. It's not such a
bad thing. On militaryoperations, we talked on the
previous one about Afghanistan.
I mean, the consequences or theliability is unlimited. So we
owe it to ourselves to to to tobring our the most the most the
strongest and the most effectiveteam together.
Bryan (09:27):
Yeah. I totally agree with that. I'm a big believer
that the more diverse our team,the more different opinions,
different experiences that wecan bring in and build, I feel
like it helps us to cover morecontingencies. People have will
think of different things.They'll they'll have different
ways of doing things, and itjust builds overall a stronger a
(09:48):
stronger team.
Jeannot (09:49):
When I when I when I deployed to Afghanistan and I
got told to put together the opscenter because we didn't have
one, you know, we were limitedon pilots. We needed all the
pilots, attack aviators to flyand be qualified. So I got told
you're going to put together anops center and brought in some
navigate some seekingnavigators, some air traffic
controllers, some med techs,basically a wide range of
(10:11):
background to work in operationsin an army in an operation
center that would be workingwith the army. I won't lie when
that happened, I was like, myGod, what are you asking me? But
when I look back, that's thebest thing that ever happened.
Air traffic controllers are usedto working with on emergencies.
They're used to running controlcenters. Navigators on Sea Kings
(10:31):
that live on ships, they canprovide you advice on how to run
24 shifts because they worktwenty four hour shifts all the
time. So all that to say thatall these people came with a
baggage and once they bought in,we train them. I mean, the team
in the end was probably well,was not probably was better than
if we put 10 tack aviators inthere.
Bryan (10:50):
Yeah. That makes sense to me for sure.
Jeannot (10:52):
And that's counterintuitive. Some of the
stuff we're doing now might becounterintuitive, but when you
think it through and you look atit closer, it becomes quite
obvious.
Bryan (11:01):
Yeah. I mean, like I said, to me, it's just something
that you think about it and it'spretty obvious that the more
differing experiences we bringin, the stronger team we'll
build. Yep. So you were directorgeneral culture change within
the chief professional conductand culture or CPCC from January
(11:21):
2023 to August 2024. As part ofthis, you led the development of
the Department of DefenseCulture Evolution Strategy.
What were the goals and keyelements of this strategy?
Jeannot (11:32):
I'm gonna try to keep keep this interesting. I won't
say simple, but I like notboring in the sense of but but
in essence, I think we are andwe had started dealing with
incidents. So if seriousincidents are happening, we're
reacting, we're dealing withthem. We are updating policies.
But we came to the conclusion wecan deal and be reactive and we
(11:53):
can update policies.
But the real change needs tohappen is in the mindset. So the
intent of the strategy is how dowe evolve the mindset? And then
there's a lot of information inthere, but there's an area where
we get to the big five, we callthem and you can have a look.
But in essence, talk about adiagnostic. We've asked all the
L1s, all like Army, Navy, AirForce, all our leaders to think
(12:19):
hard at their organization,their culture, to kind of do a
diagnostic and then to developtheir philosophy and a culture
plan.
How will they evolve theirculture? How will they close the
gap between our espoused valuesand the behaviors we're seeing?
And one really key aspect, wecall it vignettes or scenario
based, was just to ensure we'rehaving conversations because
(12:41):
people need to get comfortablebeing uncomfortable. A lot of
these subjects at times are veryuncomfortable but it's because
we don't understand, we're notinformed. So that's kind of in a
nutshell the intent of thestrategy, which has been in
implementation right now forover a year.
(13:02):
The other part was to bring astructure. So right now, L1s,
they have culture evolutioncoordinators, Think flight
safety officers. So again, theconcept is similar, right? You
have flight safety officers atthe unit at the wing level.
We're not all the way down tothe unit level for culture, but
the idea again is just toacknowledge that this is
important and to make sure we'reregularly talking about it, to
(13:25):
make sure we're we're not makingunnecessary mistakes and in this
case, misconducts.
Bryan (13:32):
You've used the term l one a couple of times. Can you
just let us know what that whatthat is?
Jeannot (13:36):
Yeah. So l ones is probably an Ottawa term, but
commander of the army, the airforce, the navy, CAN SOFCOM, but
then there's all the assistantdeputy ministers, material,
finance. There's over 20 L1s inOttawa. So we want to make sure
obviously the culture evolutionwe're trying to achieve this for
(13:57):
the entire institution. Sotherefore, we've worked with all
the L1s to make sure they allhave their their philosophy,
their plans that are guided oraligned with the overall defense
team strategy.
Bryan (14:12):
Okay. You mentioned that some of the vignettes that you
worked on involved topics thatsome people would find
uncomfortable, like just becausewe're maybe they're not
comfortable, they're not used todiscussing them and things. Can
you give me some examples of ofwhat those might be?
Jeannot (14:27):
There's a 50 of them and and they're available for
everybody to have thoseconversations, but they they
talk about racism, they talkabout transgender, they talk
about 2SLGBTQ, they talk aboutethics, they talk about toxic
leadership, they talk aboutalcohol, they talk about any
subject you can think. The ideais just to have a conversation.
(14:49):
The analogy I use is rules ofengagement. So right now, you
know, of engagement for thosethat have deployed, you read
them the first time, but theyonly really become true to you
when you really talk about themin a group and you actually live
them. So those vignettes arethere for that.
We can talk about a lot ofsubjects but once you're in a
(15:10):
small group and you discuss themaround a scenario, when you
argue it out and you heardifferent perspectives, it kind
of helps probably increase yourunderstanding of exactly what
we're talking about. And thenmaybe when something real
happens in your environment,you're going to see it. And
again, kind of that thatlearning process.
Bryan (15:29):
It's interesting that you mentioned alcohol simply because
we're gonna talk later and dosome questions from the
audience. Some of the questionsthat I didn't end up using did
have to do with alcohol use. AndI just wasn't aware that this
was that broad, that this wasalso called addressing things in
our culture like alcohol. Sothat's that's interesting. That
was something that was included.
Jeannot (15:49):
Well, think it's no surprise that, you know, when
you look at some of the causesof misconduct, you know,
oftentimes it's related toalcohol. So again, how do we
Intro (16:00):
For sure.
Jeannot (16:02):
If we educate and we help people on the safe or the
smart use of alcohol, then bydefault, we're in the prevention
space and we're reducing ideallyreducing the number of incidents
I guess we're seeing.
Bryan (16:14):
For sure. I think listeners will be really happy
to hear that because there was asurprising amount of questions
that were about that thatbasically said that that same
thing. Like, hey, alcohol leadsto a lot of these incidents.
Alcohol leads to a lot ofproblems within the CAF right
now. So what are we doing toestablish like a more
responsible culture around that?
So that's that's really cool tohear. So we're still talking
(16:38):
about the Department of DefenseCulture Evolution Strategy. What
were the biggest obstaclesencountered when developing and
implementing this strategy?
Jeannot (16:47):
I I would just say, I think we moved as an institution
from denial like a few decadesago to individual consciousness
to collective consciousness. AndI say that because I think the
biggest obstacles were kind offear of the unknown and lack of
understanding, not seeing it.People don't see it. And I'll
admit, I was the same. I didn'tsee it because I don't think I
(17:11):
was I didn't know how to see it.
But when you take a step back,it becomes obvious there's areas
of concern that we need to bebetter at and we need to enable
our people to be better at. Theanalogy you can use is an
elephant, right? Like, if youwant to look at an elephant and
you're by your own, like youstep back, you're just going to
(17:34):
see one side of the elephant. Weneed collectively, when we talk
about culture, to be four orfive people around that elephant
talking. And only by taking astep back and looking at all
sides of it Mhmm.
Can we really see it for what itis and then take the appropriate
actions.
Bryan (17:50):
Yeah. It's interesting that you talked about being one
of those people who didn't seeit. I think that a lot of us are
guilty not guilty of that, butare in that situation. And and
part of that, I think, is justthat, you know, like, looking at
you and I, for example, we'reboth white males. We're not
gonna get exposed to a lot ofthe downsides of issues with
(18:13):
culture, issues with diversity,inclusivity, all that stuff
because the system historicallywas designed around us.
So we have to be you have toconsciously make an effort to
take this on.
Jeannot (18:27):
Absolutely. When I was asked to ask selected, I guess,
to go to CPCC, I that's thequestion I asked myself. Why me?
Why me a straight white male?But the idea is to connect to
the operational community.
So me coming in as an operator,I need to understand, I need to
(18:48):
appreciate it. And then I needto be an ally, right? Because we
need to evolve from people thatwith lived experience will
communicate, but then we need toevolve to where people like me,
allies, make sure that themajority understand how
important it is and work to tryto see it. And once you see it,
(19:09):
I mean, most human beings aregood people and want to do the
right thing. I trust that ifpeople really see it and we
educate them well on what rightlooks like, that people will do
the right thing.
Bryan (19:20):
Yeah. I completely agree. So you mentioned that you as a
straight white male wereselected to kind of, I guess
I'll use the word lead to leadthis effort. Does the team have
a decent amount of diversitywithin it?
Jeannot (19:33):
Yeah, the team's extremely diverse. So team's
extremely diverse. So if youlook at all equity seeking
groups from racialized people to2SLGBTQI plus to people with
disability, women, the team isthe team is very, very diverse.
Bryan (19:50):
That's awesome to hear. And I I just think I think
that's important for thelisteners to hear that because I
think there's been how do I putthis? Like, there's been a few
photos, for example, of like,hey. This is our new diversity
team, and it was like all middleaged white guys. I think it's
good for people to hear like,hey.
(20:11):
This is a diverse team. This ispeople with lots perspectives.
Like, this isn't just our takeon it. This is a lived
experience that we're workingfrom.
Jeannot (20:18):
You know, I'll candidly say probably myself, probably
more of a minority in in in theteam, which is good. Like, I've
learned so much from I've rarelyin my life been a minority. I
talked a little bit when I wasfirst kind of headquarters in
the sense of a colonel with thearmy, but a minority kind of in
the culture space to realize theimpact of your words. And again,
(20:44):
like realizing how we can beloud in a room because we feel
very comfortable but when you'rea minority in a group, how it's
it's important for the otherpeople to make you feel included
and belonging so you can alsocontribute. So I kinda it's been
a tremendous learningexperience.
Bryan (21:02):
Yeah. That's really interesting. The whole concept
of like when you're themajority, it's easy to feel
comfortable to be loud in theroom. I just sort of pictured
myself, like, what would it feellike to be not in the majority,
which is generally somethingthat hasn't happened for me. And
I could see that you wouldquickly if if efforts weren't
being made, you could quickly befeel like a bit of an outsider
(21:24):
and maybe, like, you're youshouldn't be voicing your
opinions.
Jeannot (21:28):
Yeah. If you're a minority and you're by nature a
calm and introverted person,yes, you're you likely your
perspective will not be part ofthe solution, which is very
unfortunate. Right?
Bryan (21:40):
For sure. So for the Department of Defense Culture
Evolution strategy, what doesimplementing this strategy look
like? And is there a timeline tothe efforts?
Jeannot (21:50):
I mean, there's no timeline in the sense it's a
never ending it's a never endingendeavor. Right? But to me, the
best analogy for that is whatwe've called like the gym
analogy. Right. As human beings,we all want to be healthy.
We all want to see the doctorand get told we're healthy.
Bryan (22:05):
For sure.
Jeannot (22:06):
So what do we need to do to get healthy? You need to
exercise, you need to eat well,you need to hydrate, you need to
sleep. So when we put out thestrategy, we're kind of trying
to tell people develop yourplans to make sure again, you're
exercising, you're healthy,you're hydrating, you're
sleeping. And we trust that ifyou do that, when you do your
health card, it's gonna when youget your health card, you're
(22:26):
going to be healthy, right?Other analogy is obviously
what's the timeline?
Well, the first step wasprobably to put together the
building for the gym. Then thesecond step is to get machines
and weights in there. And thenit's to tell people or teach
people how to use it. Right. Andthen you get to the point where
if people understand it enough,they go to the gym because they
(22:47):
know it's good for them.
They know how to use themachines to exercise and then
they hydrate, they sleep andthey eat well and they're
healthy. Can you ever stop doingthat? Well, if you stop doing
it, you're going to regress,right?
Bryan (22:59):
For sure.
Jeannot (23:00):
So again, I think we put more resources into this
because we needed to kind ofraise the awareness, raise the
understanding and get throughthe inertia. And and and then
we'll figure out, and I thinkwe're eventually getting there
how to right size to make surewe just sustain and we don't
regress back.
Bryan (23:19):
So in that analogy of the gym, the the building, the
equipment, using the equipment,Where do you think we are with
this effort?
Jeannot (23:26):
I think we're at the point where the gym is there. I
think the equipment is in thegym, and I think our membership
is increasing.
Bryan (23:33):
Okay.
Jeannot (23:34):
Their membership is increasing, but the number of
people that are reallyknowledgeable about how to use
it all and are actually able totell others how to develop their
their programs is not quitewhere it needs to be. But I
think another year or two, and Ithink we'll I think we'll be
good.
Bryan (23:50):
For sure. And that's and these are like, culture change
takes time. Right? Culturechange doesn't happen overnight.
It's I I would imagine it'squite complex to develop and
change an organization'sculture, especially one that
relies on tradition for a lot ofits sense of belonging.
So I imagine there's ainteresting line to walk between
(24:14):
respecting our traditions andchanging our culture.
Jeannot (24:17):
Yeah, I think you're right. It takes a certain amount
of time. I mean, need to youcan't force it. So for people
with lived experience that havebeen harmed and that kind of
know what right looks like, wecan never move fast enough for
people that are digesting andassimilating and learning.
Sometimes it feels like too muchand we need to kind of navigate
(24:38):
that but understand again, likeculture evolution takes time.
We're about like, you know,evolving professional conduct
and ethics, and that's somethingwe've always done. Now we've
gone through a bit of a periodwhere we said, hey, we need to
pay more attention to this.
Bryan (24:53):
For sure. And and like you said, there are those two
groups. There's those livedexperiences and those people who
are trying to learn. And youhave to balance the needs
because you don't wanna alienateeither group. Absolutely.
So what was the biggest positivechange you witnessed during your
time leading these efforts?
Jeannot (25:09):
I think I kinda just alluded to it to be honest. It's
that kind of that thatcollective consciousness and
understanding. People arestarting to see it. There's more
and more people that see it.There was resistance at first.
Yeah. I think we've gone fromwhy to how. People were like,
why are we doing this? We're notgetting a lot of that anymore.
Bryan (25:27):
Okay.
Jeannot (25:28):
We go around, we consult, we talk to commanders,
we talk to chiefs, we talk toeverybody. And I think the why
now is not being questionedanymore. It's more on the how.
So they're like, okay, we getit. We understand it's
important.
How do we do this?
Bryan (25:39):
Yeah, for sure.
Jeannot (25:40):
And and that's been really positive. Now we have a
lot of tools. Now we need tofigure out how again, we need to
figure out how we use that gymequipment. We optimize it to
make sure we get the biggestbiggest benefit.
Bryan (25:52):
Yeah. That makes sense. You've got the buy in. It's just
about now educating people onhow to do it. Yeah.
So you're also responsible forinitiatives such as the CAF
employment equity program, humanrights policies, accessibility
plans, and programs for twoSLGBTQI plus members. How do
these initiatives aim to createa more inclusive environment
(26:12):
within the Canadian ArmedForces?
Jeannot (26:15):
Like, I think all those programs, policies, and plans
are there to, like, help usunderstand the why and help us.
I alluded to it, how do we thesimplest way to say it is how do
we remove as many barriers as wecan and how do we create equal
opportunity for everybody? Andthat's what all those policies
(26:37):
are aimed for. But a fewexamples may be that they kind
of help people visualize. One isour Canadian Forces Leadership
and Recruit School, forinstance, now where we're
selecting instructors, right?
So we're select instructors onspecific criteria on character
and the discussion on values andethics has evolved from
PowerPoint to discussions usingour scenarios, right? So there
(26:59):
are specific things like thatwe're doing. We're spending a
lot of time at the OSEDInstitute where people know that
this is where we train, educate,develop our NCOs and senior
NCOs. So they're spending a lotof time talking about this. And
I would say we've seen a greatevolution in command teams.
Obviously, General Carignanstarted this almost four years
ago now, but meeting commandteams now, we're really seeing
(27:23):
command teams, commanders andtheir senior chiefs really
understanding and focused on howto improve our environment.
Bryan (27:36):
Now you mentioned something there, I think it was
OCD Institution, is that right?
Jeannot (27:40):
Yeah, the OCD Institution is at the College
Mitar Royale de Saint Jean andthis is where all our I think it
starts at warrant but evensergeants, warrants, master
warrant officers and chiefs gothere and it's led by chiefs or
retired chiefs and that's wherewe kind of do the professional
development for those people.
Bryan (28:00):
Okay. So this is a big one. One of your goals in this
position was to approach thechallenge of eradicating
systemic racism within thedefense team. Can you explain
what systemic racism is?
Jeannot (28:13):
That's a that's a real, real tough one. But obviously,
when you're talking aboutracism, there's individual
racism, there's institutionalracism, there's structural
racism. So our policies andpractices, all that together
forms the system. So so how todefine that in simple terms? I
think most of what we do isbased on supporting the norm and
(28:38):
the norm is based on ourcolonial history.
It's just based on our history.Unfortunately, of our policies,
our practices have not evolved.So they benefit some groups over
others. Again, maybe one exampleis medical needs where right now
our calf medical needs aretailored to the norm. Therefore
(28:59):
to me and you, White straightmales mainly.
It's not tailored to indigenous,black and Asian people where we
have more of those people thatjust have unique needs. They
have unique illnesses. They'renot better, they're not worse.
They're just different andunique. And we need to again to
update our policies, ourpractices, the services we offer
to make sure again that we'retreating all of our people the
(29:23):
same way.
Bryan (29:24):
Mhmm.
Jeannot (29:25):
Not the same way, but equitably, I guess.
Bryan (29:27):
Yeah. For sure. What strategies were implemented and
what progress was made?
Jeannot (29:31):
There there's tons of things in place. There's there's
there's an anti racism resourcehub, but there's a culture
evolution resource center. Wewe've developed spectrums so
people understand what hatefulconduct is. There are tools for
commanding officers. There's anincident decision management
tool so people know how tonavigate and how to deal with an
incident and deal it at thelowest level.
(29:53):
Coaching program. We talkedabout vignettes and we're
working actively on a complaintstransformation and grievance
transformation. So how do wemake it easy for people to
report an incident or misconductand then we can send it to the
right people and deal with it atthe lowest level in a timely
fashion. It doesn't get worseover many years. We also have
(30:17):
the CCMSs, which I'll need tofind the acronym, but they're on
the 16 bases, which is pointwhere each of our members can go
there and they can communicatesome of the challenges they face
and they'll be guided to theright tools and services.
Bryan (30:32):
Okay. I think also something that's important for
people to understand with we wetalked about that concept of
systemic racism is that youmentioned it's built of, like,
different types of racism. Andsome of those, like, on a
personal level, someone, like,who's being racist, that one's
obvious. Right? Like, peoplegenerally now recognize that's,
(30:53):
hey, that's racist behavior.
But some of the other stuff is,like, less easy to recognize,
like, stuff that's baked intothe system that we don't like
you said, it's based on ourpast. It's based on kind of what
has worked for us so far. It'snot so obvious to people, and
it's not necessarily evenintentional. It's just this is
the way we've done it. But hey,these are the effects it's
having and we have to fix that.
Jeannot (31:14):
I would say like what comes to mind when you talk
about that is just unconsciousbias. Again, for me coming into
CPCC, like I underestimated howmany unconscious biases I had.
So even if I was trying to benice or polite, because I think
I always do, I was doingmicroaggressions and some people
will say, like, you know, likelike we're overstating that. But
(31:37):
no, the answer is no. When youget smart on that, like it's,
it's, you're being harmful orhurtful sometimes without doing
it on purpose.
And I think that's where, again,if people, if there's anything,
there's many things we can do.We talked about vignettes and
conversations, but unconsciousbias training, understanding
that you have biases. And again,once you're aware, you're going
(31:58):
to you're going to catchyourself doing it. I do now a
lot and then I can react, but Icouldn't at first because I just
wasn't aware.
Bryan (32:05):
Oh, it sounds like a a hugely steep learning curve,
especially for somebody who isin that position that that
you're in right now. Like, it'sa challenging position affecting
change, affecting culturalchange, and there's just sounds
like there's a lot to learn.
Jeannot (32:22):
You know, Gerard Carignan talks about anticipate,
learn and adapt. In this worldright now, we need to learn how
to anticipate, learn and adapt.And that comes from asking
questions, being vulnerable,reading. I'm an avid reader like
Reid, Reid. My old hockey coachagain and I get back to him
because he had a pretty goodimpact on my life.
(32:43):
He says, The day you stop tryingto get better is the day you
stop being good. So every day Ilearn there's one thing I fear.
Won't live long enough to knoweverything I'd like to know. So
get out there, ask questions andlearn. The people in this
culture space, like they want totalk to you.
They want to explain to you.They just want to feel like you
want to learn or you want tolisten. So if you're sincere and
(33:05):
you want to learn and listen,you know, they're going to
explain it to you and they'regoing to be very patient and
you're going to feel goodbecause you're going to know
something you didn't knowbefore.
Bryan (33:12):
For sure. You mentioned another term there and this is
like another one that people whoaren't aren't on board, aren't
totally sold on these conceptstend to react to, which is
microaggressions. Can youexplain what that is?
Jeannot (33:27):
I'm not the best to explain that, to be honest. But
to me, again, you might besaying a joke or you might be
talking about people and again,even trying to be kind. But
without knowing it's amicroaggression on them, it's
it's it's it makes them feellesser because of the comment
you made.
Bryan (33:46):
So it sounds like though essentially it's like it's
almost like small unintentionalways that you might make someone
feel uncomfortable or hurt.
Jeannot (33:55):
Exactly. Over time, imagine you're the only
racialized person or person fromthe 2SLGBTQI plus community on a
team and a team of 15 and theother 14 don't understand your
reality at all. So they might bejoking all day or saying things
and microaggressions, well,mean, just add up, right? So,
(34:17):
you know, one comment wouldn'tbe so bad, but if you're getting
10 a week over fifty weeks,well, that's 500 times in a
year. And again, that's what alot of these equity seeking
groups feel.
People with disability, 2SLGBTQIplus community, racialized
people, That's their reality.
Bryan (34:35):
So what would you say to someone who says, why should
those 14 people change theirways for one person?
Jeannot (34:43):
Because if in there in the calf, they're all about
being operationally effectiveand they're all about having a
strong team that will go outthere and deliver on the
mission. And right now, it'd bevery naive to think that you can
do that without that person. Tome, again, I I spoke earlier
about my hockey analogy on aprevious podcast about four
(35:03):
lines. Like if you want to,yeah, you can win one day
without that person. But ifyou're going to survive like a
thirteen month deploymentworking seven days a week, you
need every member to bring theirfull selves.
And that's not even talkingabout the fact that that person
might be your smartest cyberperson, your smartest IT person.
And right now, by not includinghim and not making him or her
(35:26):
feel they belong, you're losingout on maybe something that's
gonna be critical to themission.
Bryan (35:30):
For sure. Not to mention the fact that these people are
brothers and sisters in arms,right? Like, we're comrades.
Jeannot (35:36):
Like, we're we're a family, right? Like, I mean, to
me, people say, what'sleadership? Like, when we say
we're a family, you know, weneed to walk the talk. So if
we're a family, then that meansas a leader, every member of
your team is like one of yourchildren. And and I have a hard
time thinking how one would nottreat them, every one of them,
with the same with the samerespect and dignity.
Bryan (35:58):
Mhmm. So what would you say are the ongoing challenges
related to diversity, equity,and inclusion within the
Canadian Armed Forces?
Jeannot (36:06):
The the one thing I'd say to that right now, like
anywhere, like any organization,like any society, there's a lot
of great people and there's afew bad people. We need to get
to the point like flight safety,where when something is
inappropriate, we talk about it.And if it's minor, we adapt and
(36:27):
learn. But if it's major andit's a character flaw or
somebody that does not reflecttheir values and ethics,
unfortunately, we say you're notmade to be part of this
institution. Those challengeswill never go away.
We get 200 new recruits probablyevery week from various
backgrounds. We need to makesure again, we have people with
(36:48):
the right character. You'veprobably heard character
commitment and competent. Weneed competent people for sure.
We need committed people forsure but we need people with the
right character.
We need people that arerespectful, hardworking, good
leaders and you know, everybodycan make mistakes. We're not
about not making mistakes. We'reabout learning from our
mistakes. And again, if ifyou're unable to treat everybody
(37:10):
around you with respect anddignity, then unfortunately, I
don't think you're you're in aninstitution where you're
welcome.
Bryan (37:18):
You led the institutionalization of gender
based analysis plus or GBA plusenterprise approach across the
defense team. What role does GBAplus play in creating a more
equitable and inclusive militaryand why is it important?
Jeannot (37:31):
So assuming most of the people listening to this are Air
Force people, but I'm gonna talkabout intelligence preparation
of the environment. So if youunderstand it, that's awesome.
If not, as an Air Force person,you need to understand that. But
basically we wouldn't deployanywhere without understanding
the environment we're gettingin. How that works is you define
the environment, the effects,the threats, you come up with
(37:53):
Koa's, right?
Bryan (37:54):
Can you explain what a Koa is?
Jeannot (37:55):
Courses of action. Basically, how I'm going to do
this. And you look at geography,you look at terrain, you look at
the population, you look at allthese things. GBA plus or
intersectional analysis is kindof the relationship between a
bunch of identity factors. Soage, ethnic background, family
status, socioeconomic factors.
(38:16):
And there's a, you know, andthere's there you can be
advantaged or disadvantageddepending on how you look at it.
So to me, before you deploysomewhere, it's understanding
your team is doing kind of yourcultural preparation of the
environment. Who are my teammembers and what are the
effects? What are the threats?And what is the best way to
(38:37):
What's the best system?
What's the best way to employthis team to have maximum effect
on the battlefield? We're allabout, I think the easiest way
to understand how to go aboutoperations is understand,
decide, act. Well, GBA plus orintersectional analysis is key
to the understand piece. It'skey to understanding your team
(38:58):
and then you can go out, decide,and act in whatever environment
or mission you're sent to.
Bryan (39:03):
I really like that you related that back to the battle
space. I think that GBA plus isa you know, everyone had to do
their GBA plus training. It's aterm that gets thrown around a
lot and I think sometimesderisively. So it's good to
understand, like, why is thisimportant? How does this relate
back to the battle space?
And how does this relate to ourbusiness as warfighters?
Jeannot (39:24):
Yeah. It's it's it's all about this. The and the team
that works this knows that. Theywork with CJOC. They work with
with with people deployingbecause in the end, people
deploying need to under usunderstand their environment so
that they can define theirmission and their goals.
But they also need to understandtheir team to be aware about,
you know, the makeup of theirteam, to maximize that team, to
(39:46):
maximize the effect and tobenefit from all the diversity,
you know, of thought andexperience that's within their
team. If you're not doing that,you're definitely not putting
out the most effective or thestrongest team you can.
Bryan (39:58):
For sure. So finally, let's discuss your current role,
which is chief of staff CPCC. Itsounds similar. So how is this
role different from your role asdirector general?
Jeannot (40:09):
Yeah. It's it's basically I cored all the CPCC
activities. So we have the chiefof professional conduct and
culture, the assistant, thechief, like any organization as
the chief of staff. I just coredall the activities. There's five
DGs.
Bryan (40:23):
Which are director generals.
Jeannot (40:24):
That that's in essence my role. So hopefully, I've
learned from my time as directorgeneral culture and then I'm
trying to to enable the entireteam to implement what we're
trying to do.
Bryan (40:35):
So you're more setting the overall goals and
coordination and then lettingyour team make it happen?
Jeannot (40:41):
Well, I'm the chief of staff again. So my boss is is
lieutenant general Prevot, chiefprofessional conduct and
culture. So I co ord. I provideoptions. And then based on his
decisions and direction andguidance, yes, the director
generals, they go out and theyexecute.
Bryan (40:57):
Okay. What are your current priorities as chief of
staff?
Jeannot (41:00):
I'll just make a quick snap. Like, we talked a lot
about the flight safety mindset.So I want us to get to that. But
I would say the priorities arecomplaints transformation and
grievance transformation. Weneed to create the mechanism to
make it easy for people toreport and for us to kind of
send that to the right people sowe can address those in a timely
(41:22):
fashion.
And then we can learn from thatand become kind of as an
institution become self awareand preventive. That's really
what the focus is at this pointfor CPCC.
Bryan (41:32):
Okay. So you've mentioned before that you have a son in
the calf. How does that motivateyou when it comes to your work
with CPCC?
Jeannot (41:41):
Well, I think it just makes it extra more important
that you get to a certain rankin the institution when it's
about giving back. Right now I'mtrying to give back and make
sure I leave the institutionbetter than it was so people can
have the same amazing career Ihave. Obviously, the fact that I
have a son that's a lieutenantjust makes that even more real
(42:05):
to me. Plus all his friends,right? I've gotten to know all
his friends intimately.
So there's a lot of young peoplethat I've encouraged, I've
mentored, and I feel responsibleto try to to make this place as
as exciting and as good as itcan be.
Bryan (42:20):
Do you find that having that connection with your son
who's a lieutenant and hisbuddies, does that help kind of
connect you with what areyounger people thinking about
culture and and that sort ofthing right now?
Jeannot (42:32):
Yeah, I think it does. And and it it does a lot of
things. One is obviously we'redealing with important issues,
but but to young people down,like, just want to be able to do
their job. We need to get themthe resources. We need to get
them a mission and we need toget them out there doing their
jobs.
They should they should listenand obviously make sure we're
creating the right environmentand the right culture. But they
should be focused on that andcreating effective teams and
(42:55):
doing their jobs and having fun.Yeah, they'll have their chance
in a few years to kind of comedeal with these problems. That's
what I'm reminded of as well. Ithink back when I had their age
and life was easier andhopefully our young people keep
it simple.
Obviously, they treat everybodyaround them the way they should,
but they just focus on on havingfun and doing their job.
Bryan (43:18):
Mhmm. Where do you see the Canadian Armed Forces going
in the future in terms of itsculture?
Jeannot (43:24):
I think culture evolves with the environment. So again,
the world is increasinglycomplex and interconnected. Our
population is increasinglydiverse. So like where we go is
we need to evolve ourprofessional conduct and ethics
(43:45):
to to reflect that reality. SoI.
Like, that's the way I look atit. I want a calf. I want a
defense team where everybodytreats everybody with respect
and dignity and where everybodyhas the moral courage to speak
up when something inappropriatehappens. So we fix it at the
(44:05):
lowest level for the team to bestronger. That's first.
But if it's serious, then wedeal with it appropriately.
Those are the two things. Treateverybody with respect and
dignity and have the moralcourage. Like if you see
something inappropriate and youdon't talk, then you're failing
the team, right? Like you'refailing that person.
That person's going be harmedand that's awful. But people are
saying why this culture thingbecause we're about operations.
(44:27):
Well, you're failing the team.Therefore, you're putting your
team at risk on operations by byby letting that go.
Bryan (44:36):
What's the thing you're most proud of implementing
within the CAF?
Jeannot (44:40):
It seems simple, but that's a really hard question
for me to answer. Like, to me isleaving a profit. Like, every
step of the way, I've just triedto make things a little bit
better. I've tried to enablepeople to achieve their goals.
So the things I'm most proud of,I think the thing I'm most proud
of is I have a lot of peoplecalling me from all ranks and
(45:03):
asking me for advice, asking mefor support.
And then I feel I have theirtrust to help them achieve their
goals. So I think that's that'swhat I'm most proud of.
Bryan (45:12):
Yeah, I like that.
Jeannot (45:13):
That's what I'm I'm going to retire someday. That's
what I'm going to miss the mostis that that that connection
with people and that ability tojust like at this rank, but
throughout my career. But now ifthere's like, if there's one
reason I like rank is is itenables me to hopefully make a
difference, a positivedifference in the life of
people.
Bryan (45:31):
Gives you a chance to step into that space as a
mentor.
Jeannot (45:34):
Yeah.
Bryan (45:36):
So you mentioned retirement. What do you see as
your endpoint in the CAF andwhat comes next for you?
Jeannot (45:41):
I think I talked about it earlier. I think I'm all
about doing the best I can. I'mI'm awful at predicting the
future. So you got my four zerothree story about me never
wanting to be close to the armyand never in my mind would have
thought I'd be in the cultureand the people space. So I'm
awful at predicting the future.
I'm still passionate aboutlearning. I'm passionate about
(46:03):
reading. I'm passionate aboutcoaching. So I'm going to do the
best I can and continue playingmy role within the CAF as long
as I'm in uniform. But evenafter that, I want to keep
serving this country and I'llfind a way to hopefully help
guide young people like it wasdone for me when I was young and
that enabled me to achieve mygoals.
Bryan (46:25):
Alright. So next we're gonna do some questions from the
audience. I always try to dothis when I I feel like we have
on this show privileged accessto sometimes people of senior
ranks, and I like to try toenable some people to to kinda
talk with you guys. So the firstone we got is a bit spicy. Why
does conduct and professionalculture need a major general in
(46:48):
charge of it?
What does the office provideother than a reminder that
racism, sexism, assault,etcetera are bad?
Jeannot (46:54):
Listen, we resource what's important to us. And I
think right now we've beentalking for a couple hours over
the last two podcasts, and Ithink we all want to be
effective and we wanna win oncewe're faced, you know, with
battle. And I think for that, weneed everybody and we need
everybody to be their best. Sowe have the resources we have
(47:17):
because it's that important.
Bryan (47:20):
So this is another tough one. A 2022 study on sexual
misconduct in the forces notedthat sixty one percent of
members considered sexualmisconduct to be a problem in
the CAF. However, ninety sixpercent of members strongly or
somewhat agreed that it isunderstood by their unit that
sexual misconduct has no placein the calf. So broadly
(47:41):
speaking, what we have is thatindividuals largely report a
positive environment in theirimmediate units yet still
perceive this as a calf widesystemic issue. So why do you
think that is?
Jeannot (47:52):
I think we all agree on our espoused values. I think we
all agree on those. So when wetalk, we all agree. But I think
if we look really hard, we seethat there's a gap between those
values and the behaviors we seeacross the institution. The
statistics show it.
How do we close that gap? So tome, that's what this means and
(48:13):
that's what we're trying totackle. And how do you tackle
that? You increase awareness,you increase understanding, you
enable conversations and youprovide the tools. You raise
those issues to the surface andeventually you're able to deal
with them and hopefully youclose that gap.
The statistics become 90% ofpeople know what's important and
(48:35):
85% of people feel we'rebehaving in a way that's
consistent with that.
Bryan (48:40):
Mhmm. I wonder also that 96% who essentially think things
are good in their immediatearea. We talked a little bit
about how like the majority ofus tend not to be the people who
are affected by it. So it couldalso be that they just don't
notice some of the stuff that'sa problem.
Jeannot (48:57):
You just don't see it. Like, I think I was part of
that, right? Like, I was totallypart of that. Didn't see it. I
like I'm like, well, I'm hearingall this and I'm not seeing it.
But you have to take a step backand you have to realize again
what your unconscious biasesare. You have biases, therefore
you're just not seeing it. Andif you take a step back, you
(49:18):
start seeing it. And when youstart seeing it, you start
realizing, my God, we're we'reharming our own people in a way
that is preventable and in a waywhere we're losing talent and
and and we can't afford it rightnow. We wanna recruit.
We wanna retain. We can't affordto lose the talent we have.
Bryan (49:36):
For sure. For sure. And and speaking of retention, we
know that's a hot topic in theCAF currently. What initiatives
is CPCC working on to establisha culture of retention?
Jeannot (49:46):
So we talked about our our our policy, and the key
piece in our policy isreadiness. So right now our
focus is how can we be ready inthe event of a global conflict?
Like we need to be ready. Andthe four parts of readiness are
people, equipment, training andsustainment. The people piece
has two aspects.
(50:07):
It's got recruitment and it'sgot retention. So what's the
CPCC role? It's everything wetalked about. It's creating the
environment that we can bring inall the talent and we can retain
all the talent. That's whatwe're actively working on.
We're trying to make the CAF orthe defense team an awesome
place to work where you feel youbelong, you feel valued and you
(50:28):
feel you come in every day andyou contribute. That's our part
in CPCC. Then Chief of MilitaryPersonnel, CMP, they're focused
with Associate Deputy Ministerof Human Resources on how do we
recruit talent and how do weretain talent. Because we were
talking about microaggressionsearlier And when you have
microaggressions, what we'reseeing is we can bring in
(50:50):
diversity, we can bring intalent. We lose these people
after seven or eight years.
Why? I think it's theaccumulation of those
microaggressions and and thefact again that we're not as
inclusive as we think we are.
Bryan (51:05):
Okay. How does the CPCC find a way to connect with and
listen to the future of the CAF?In other words, the privates,
corporals, officer cadets,second lieutenants, and other
junior members?
Jeannot (51:17):
Everywhere, every way you can imagine. We consulted
about 19,000 people or GeneralCarignan CPCC. We have defense
advisory groups running townhalls, social media, emails,
junior member advisory councils,every way we can. And if there's
suggestions, let us know. Likewe want to connect with CAF
(51:38):
members.
We want to understand. We wantto make the changes. I'm old. I
have a 24 year old son, so Iunderstand through him. But I'm
aware that I need to understandthe realities of everybody
across the institution if wewanna make changes that will
make a difference.
Bryan (51:54):
So it sounds like there's lots of efforts going on with
that.
Jeannot (51:57):
Yes.
Bryan (51:59):
How does the CPCC view Madame Arber's report on sexual
misconduct in leadership? TheCAF agreed with all
recommendations. What concreteorders have been given to take
action on these recommendations?
Jeannot (52:10):
So again, the actions speak louder than words. So we
have a comprehensiveimplementation plan. So there's
those recommendations plusothers, two zero six of them
that we're activelyimplementing. And there's an
external monitor and people readthe latest report. You know,
findings that that weregenuinely invested in making in
(52:33):
implementing the recommendationsand making a difference.
So I think we have a plan signedby the minister. We're reporting
on it, and we're trying toimplement all those
recommendations in the spiritwithin which they were written.
So I don't think we can be moreserious than we are about this.
Bryan (52:51):
So essentially, not only are we implementing them, but
there's also external externalmonitors happening to make sure
that we're implementing them.
Jeannot (52:59):
Yes. And we continue to engage with academics, with
people with lived experience,people from those communities.
So is it perfect? No, right.Don't take my comments as saying
we got this.
It's all perfect. But we'retrying really hard. And if we're
not meeting the mark, thenpeople, you know, getting back
to your previous question, weneed people to tell us, hey, we
get what you're trying. You'renot hitting the mark. You're not
(53:20):
understanding the real issue.
So it's a it's a yeah, it's adialogue that needs to continue.
That's never ending.
Bryan (53:29):
So this is a tough one. Can you give an example of when
you made a mistake or causedharm as a leader and what
personal changes you made as aresult?
Jeannot (53:38):
You know what? Like, the story that comes to mind are
my two first weeks in CPCC. Iwent in there thinking if
there's one thing I'm good at, Ithink is connecting with people
and and building trust withpeople. After two weeks,
remember having dinner with mywife and saying, I don't know if
(53:58):
I'm going to succeed becausejust because of all my
unconscious biases and thelanguage I was using, I think I
was I was yeah, I was I I wasdoing microaggressions, I think
on people not on purpose. Sowhat did I do?
I started asking questions. Istarted telling people, help me.
(54:19):
I educated myself. I've beenreading on it just again to kind
of be more aware, to be moreconscious, more mindful of my
environment. Right now I'm muchbetter for it and I'm trying to
help the rest of the people doit.
So we focus a lot on bigmistakes or big misconducts,
which are totally unacceptablewe need to deal with. But I
(54:41):
think the real value, the realmoney is on dealing with those
small incidents and misconductsat the lowest level in a tiny
fashion to make sure we make theteam better at the lowest level.
Bryan (54:55):
Yeah. And just to make people feel safe on a everyday
basis.
Jeannot (54:58):
Absolutely. Yep. Like, I mean, we're we're a big team
made of small teams. Right? Itstarts with section.
So, I mean, I I dream of goingback to having my section or
eight or 10 people, knowing themall personally and just making
that team the most agile, themost effective, the most honest
and transparent team out there.Right? And then so so again, we
(55:20):
can put in policies. We can dostuff in Ottawa, but like all
people probably listening tothis podcast, they're all
leading teams at their levels.And even if they're part of the
team, right?
Because it's not only theleaders or the bosses job to to
create the environment. It'severybody's job to lead in the
culture space.
Bryan (55:38):
What are we doing to establish a better culture of
integration with reservists andto ensure they are treated
equally with full time members?
Jeannot (55:45):
That's an ongoing effort as well. Obviously, we
work with the chief of thereserves and we're trying to
make reserves fully integratedin what in everything we do. My
mind space on this brings meback to when I was CO four
thirty squadron and I had like200 Regforce people, but 75
reservists. And my logisticsflight was made of 11 Regforce
(56:07):
and 18 reservists. Mymaintainers, I had a lot of
reservists because I had peoplethat were sergeants or warrants
that would retire in the areabut stay in as reservists.
So I believe in the value ofreservists and anybody that
would have visited the squadronwould not have been able to tell
the difference between a regforce and a reservist. So I just
think we need that total forcemindset and that applies to
(56:30):
contractors, to other partners,to industry as we move forward.
I mean, once again, warfare isincreasingly complex,
multifaceted, and it requiresall part of society. So we to we
need to definitely integratereserves, but I think we need to
even go further.
Bryan (56:50):
So finally, for the last question from the audience, did
you choose to be chief of staffCPCC? And what is your end goal
before you leave the position?
Jeannot (57:02):
I didn't choose to be chief of staff CPCC, but I think
it was a logical evolution forcontinuity. General Carignan was
obviously the the person thatstood up. CPCC was moving on.
The the associate CPCC had movedon. So basically, lot of people
had moved on.
So for continuity, I stayed onas chief of staff. Rear Admiral
(57:22):
Jacques Olivier stayed on asdirector general culture because
he was the DG of professionalconduct and he'd been there
since the start. So it was tobuild in build in continuity.
Bryan (57:31):
Okay. That makes sense. And do you have a goal before
you leave the position?
Jeannot (57:35):
I think I've said it is instill a flight safety mindset
into culture. Have people trustthat they can report and that
things will be dealt with andthat the teams will be stronger
and will be a more effectivemilitary.
Bryan (57:48):
Right on. Alright. So we're down to our classic last
three questions. You have held alot of impressive positions over
the course of your career anddone a variety of mission sets
both in the cockpit and behind adesk. What is the one thing you
do to stay ready for your job?
Jeannot (58:04):
I think I'm gonna give you more than one, but the top
one that comes to mind is askquestions and read.
Bryan (58:10):
Okay.
Jeannot (58:10):
I just ask questions. I'm curious and I read. I read
everything people tell me toread. But that second one I'd
say is focus on what I controland let things take me where
they need. Right?
So not focus on the end stateall the time. It's focus on what
I control and setting the rightconditions. That's the two
things I think I I stay true to.
Bryan (58:30):
Yeah. I like that. Especially the reading bit is
such a challenge these days. Ithink we're so used to consuming
media in a lot of differentforms. And it's so it's
important to still stay in thebooks and whatever that means
for you at at the thing you'reworking on.
Right? Like, whether that's fornew pilots to stay in the books
for their systems or tactics orwhen you're at a more of a a
(58:55):
level that you're at reading thevarious books that you've been
reading to to learn aboutculture change and all those
things. It's important.
Jeannot (59:02):
Yeah. I think you picked on something really
important. So as a captain,you're right. Reading but become
the best pilot or air crew orwhatever trade. So master the
fundamentals.
And I would say I really startedreading academically in my
masters, I think at 28 or 29. Sothe first few years are become
the best at your craft. That'sthe role of a junior or NCM or
(59:22):
junior officer. But theneventually you need to want
learn about everything else. Ilike to understand the essence
of things so I'm probably oldschool but I try to read books
and really understand theessence of things and kinda make
up my own mind on what rightlooks like based on that level
of reading but that's me.
(59:45):
You've worked with a lot
Bryan (59:46):
of pilots throughout your career and have over three
thousand flying hours in yourlogbook. What qualities do you
think make an excellent pilot?
Jeannot (59:53):
There's a lot, but I think if I distill it down to
three or four like disciplined,humble, humble. Like to me as a
pilot, I learned to fail like,you know, through high school,
everything was easy but as apilot, I learned to be humble. I
learned you can fail and thenyou got to get back up and just
keep going. Then I learned thatin various other jobs, be
(01:00:15):
decisive. Like it's one thing tothink and to talk, at one point
someone needs to decide.
And the last one is know yourrole. And that's at all levels.
Like, know your role within thecrew, know your role within the
unit, know your role within theformation. And based on that
role, where should you be today?And then be there and do the
right thing.
Bryan (01:00:36):
Mhmm. I like that. So finally, you've come a long way
in your career, but likeeveryone at some point, you
started as a brand new pilot.What advice would you give to
today's pilot still on the line,either those who are new or
maybe even on their second tour?
Jeannot (01:00:51):
Like, I think the future is super exciting, very
honestly, especially in the airforce, and you can have a fun
and really rewarding career. Iwould say the mines like a
parachute, so it works a lotbetter when it's open. So keep
an open mind throughout yourwhole career and make the most
of every opportunity. Theopportunities are going to pop
up all over. You got to jump onall of them.
(01:01:13):
I talked about it earlier, butthe day you stop trying to get
better is the day you're goingto stop being good. You got to
keep learning. You got to bekeep improving and you need to
be aware and mindful of yourenvironment and take care of the
people around you. I thinkthat's critical. Yeah.
(01:01:33):
The future of the air force isamazingly bright and you're
going to have your own uniqueset of challenges and
opportunities. If I could, Ithink I'd do it all over again.
Even if I didn't join, I guess,to be a pilot reflecting back, I
joined again and I do it allover again.
Bryan (01:01:50):
Yeah, for sure. I know that's like the old cliche,
right? It's an exciting time tobe in the air force, but man,
with the new capabilities thatare coming online, it's gonna be
really cool.
Jeannot (01:01:59):
Listen, at my level, I think, and that's what I'm there
for. Like, we wanna make theenvironment as best as it can
be. We need to get morecapability. We need more ammo.
We need more money.
And that's, you know, that'skind of my job. But again, if
you're just joining right nowand you're on unit on our new
aircraft and deployed to Latvia,deployed to wherever you're at,
(01:02:20):
like, just get out there andlearn your job and and have fun.
Bryan (01:02:26):
Well, Janong, this has been a lot of fun. I really
appreciate you taking the timeout of your very busy schedule
to be here. We've put a lot ofprep in behind the scenes for
this and I just appreciate youinvesting that time and making
this a great interview. So thankyou so much for being here
today.
Jeannot (01:02:42):
Thanks, Brian. I had a lot of fun. Thanks for the
opportunity. This was aprivilege to be able to share
that. And as always, I'm alwaysopen to critiques and to
questions from people listeningbecause in the end, we are
sincere and genuine about,wanting to understand and
wanting to make things better.
Thanks, Brian.
Bryan (01:02:59):
Yeah. It was my pleasure. Alright. That wraps up our three
part series with major generalGeno Boucher, chief of staff,
chief professional conduct andculture on his career as well as
culture change within theCanadian Armed Forces. For our
next episode, we'll be sittingdown with a repeat guest.
Listeners may remember major DanConway from episode five where
(01:03:22):
we discussed his role as aninstructor on the phase three
multiengine course. Dan is goingto return to the show. We're
going to discuss his career, hisearly days in training, as well
as his operational days. Andfinally, we'll finish with a
discussion on the future offixed wing search and rescue,
including the CC two nine fiveKingfisher. Do you have any
questions or comments aboutanything you've heard in this
(01:03:43):
show?
Would you or someone you knowmake a great guest, or do you
have a great idea for a show?You can reach out to us at the
pilot project podcast at Gmaildot com or on all social media
at at pod pilot project. And besure to check out that social
media for lots of great videosof our RCAF aircraft. As always,
we'd like to thank you fortuning in and ask for your help
with the big three. That's likeand follow us on social media,
(01:04:05):
share with your friends, andfollow and rate us five stars
wherever you get your podcasts.
That's all for now. Thanks forlistening. Keep the blue side
up. See you.
Intro (01:04:16):
Engineer, shut down all four. Shutting down all four
engines.
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