What does it take to pass selection for one of Canada’s most elite aviation units — 427 Special Operations Aviation Squadron? How do you earn the coveted role of SOF Aircraft Commander? And what happens when you trade a military cockpit for a mission control console at NASA?
In this episode, we sit down with Captain Erin Edwards, a trailblazing Canadian Armed Forces pilot who transitioned from flying special operations missions to becoming a CAPCOM — the voice between astronauts and Earth — at NASA’s Johnson Space Center.
We explore the grit, mindset, and milestones that defined her journey, from the demanding world of tactical aviation to collaborating with the Canadian Space Agency and NASA in Houston.
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Intro/Outro (00:30):
Fuel and ignition switches. On. RPM switches. Set.
PD switches.
Normal. Doors and hatches.Closed. Lay down. Stroblade.
On. Research check-in. Completewith your left. Engineer. Start
number two.
Starting to. Wing three one zeroten, pilot project podcast.
(00:50):
Clear takeoff runway 31 left.
Bryan (00:58):
Alright. We're ready for departure here at the pilot
project podcast, the best sourcefor stories and advice from RCAF
and mission aviation pilotsbrought to you by Sky's
Magazine. I'm your host, BrianMorrison. With me today is
captain Aaron Edwards, an RCAFpilot who is a Canadian capsule
communicator or CAPCOM currentlyworking with NASA. Erin, welcome
back to the show, and thanksonce again for being here.
Erin (01:18):
Thank you. Happy to be here.
Bryan (01:20):
Listeners can check out part one to hear about Erin's
early career and training. Fortoday, we'll be focusing on her
operational career and her timeat four two seven as well as the
beginning of her journey ofworking with the Canadian Space
Agency and NASA. So gettingslotted for four two seven
Squadron is only half thebattle. To really get there,
you've got to pass a rigorousselection course for CANsoftcom
(01:42):
at four two seven. You are oneof a handful of women to pass
this course and eventuallyqualify as a special operations
aircraft commander.
What can you tell us if anythingabout selection and what did you
learn about yourself bycompleting it?
Erin (01:54):
Yeah, it was probably one of the best courses that I think
I've been on. It was about fourand a half months long. Wow. And
you learn, yeah, you learneverything from a green phase
where you're off in the woods,learning all those types of
skills. It's like doing aircrewsurvival, but plussed up a lot.
(02:15):
You do a big shooting package aswell. They want you to be
competent with your weapons to apretty high standard given what
happens if a helicopter has togo down and you are able to
extricate yourself, you mightnot be the mission at that
point. So you'll have to be selfsufficient. So weapons
proficiency is very important.As is learning the differences
(02:36):
between sort of conventionalplanning and planning in a
special operations environmentin that kind of multiple
different units working togetherto do things in a very short
amount of time.
So the course is pretty long.There's a lot of different
things that happen on it. Andthe point is to try and stress
(02:58):
you out a fair bit and make surethat you're working as a team.
And I think the most importantthing for me on that selection
course is that it didn't matterwhat your rank was. Everyone
there had some kind of skillsetthat was required.
So you're doing a course withpilots, with flight engineers
and with your door gunners aswell. And so solving some of the
problems that they give you, itdoesn't matter whether you're
(03:20):
the officer or not, they want tosee the team come up with a
cohesive plan. And maybe thebest plan comes from the master
bombardier who has anastrophysics degree. The crazy
diversity of the people on thatcourse was wild. None of us had
the same background and all ofus had some random life
experience, which I think wasprobably part of the purpose.
(03:41):
So you're able to come up withsome really interesting
solutions to very difficultabstract problems because
everyone there has had crazyexperiences in their life. I'd
say the thing I learned the mostwas to trust my team. As much as
I talked about teamwork in thepast, that's a long time to be
with a group of people under afair amount of stress and you
(04:03):
get to know them in and out. Wespent a little while sleeping on
the side of the airfield in atent together. And then we spent
some time learning more thingsabout ourselves under a little
bit of duress in our contactafter capture phase.
But it was an interesting coursein that it exposed everybody's
vulnerabilities at one point oranother. And the team just
(04:26):
adapted. Everyone had to learnsomething about themselves kind
of in a group that maybewouldn't normally share, but you
get to know those people reallywell. And it spools you up and
gets you ready for essentiallyhitting your operational flight
and being able to deploy. Sothere's also a long flying phase
where we learned how to do allof the precision inserts with
(04:49):
folks rappelling or fast ropingout of your helicopter, which as
a brand new pilot was superchallenging because of the,
well, the Griffin is a fantasticaircraft, but it's a difficult
aircraft to fly the way that wefly it at four twenty seven.
And the tolerance is requiredwhen you're inserting humans to
either a tower or a spot on theground. So you combine that with
(05:12):
also having to do your CCA, yourclose combat attack course as
well mixed in there. It's a lotof flying, it's a lot of
learning, but you learn to relyon yourself and learn on your
lean on your team. So I thoughtit was an interesting course for
sure.
Bryan (05:25):
It sounds like the kind of thing that when you walk
away, you're a member of like awell, you are a member of a
select group and that'ssomething that kind of stays
with you for life.
Erin (05:34):
Yeah. I mean, it's different obviously than the
other communities. We're we'reaviation specialists. We're not
operators and we're notassaulters.
Bryan (05:40):
Mhmm.
Erin (05:40):
But we do have to be able to seamlessly sort of insert
ourselves into that constructand to make sure that the other
units trust us to be able to doour jobs to a super high level
of precision because it's theirlives on the line. If I miss my
target and they're not wherethey expect to be, I may have
cost them that mission. So wereally harp on our new students
(06:03):
and folks that pass selectionand are learning how to do these
jobs that the responsibility youhave is pretty massive at a
young phase in your career.
Bryan (06:13):
For sure.
Erin (06:13):
And that's one thing I noticed too, is post selection
immediately you're responsiblefor stuff. It's like, you might
be brand new to this unit, butif you're past our selection and
you've been put into anoperational flight, we have
confidence in you, maybe even asa junior captain to go talk on
behalf of four twenty seven in ajoint planning atmosphere. Over
to you, don't mess it up, doyour best kind of thing. You're
(06:36):
like, Oh, this is a bigresponsibility all of a sudden.
But yeah, the course prepared usreally well and a couple of
people were gone within a fewmonths to go do some stuff
overseas.
So it set us up pretty, prettywell.
Bryan (06:49):
Wow. Over time, you upgraded to special operations
aircraft commander. Did you findthat process difficult and what
was your greatest challenge?
Erin (06:59):
Yeah, that takes a couple years. Much like in any
community, you have to kind ofprogress through different
phases to get to aircraftcommander and a special
operations aircraft commanderhas a certain standard as well.
And essentially what that is, Imean, the qualifications have
changed somewhat, butessentially the responsibility
you are given with thatcertification is that CANSOFCOM
(07:23):
via forty seven CO feels asthough you've reached a level of
competence that they can giveyou an aircraft with our most
expensive operators andassaulters to train in the back
of an aircraft and insert themor do any of our mission sets
unsupervised as an aircraftcommander, you're responsible
for that crew. You're not aflight commander, so you are
managing your machine integratedinto part of a flight, make
(07:47):
multiple aircraft, but it's abig responsibility. I think
anyone becoming an aircraftcommander, whether it's in
special forces or not, you arenow responsible for a
multimillion dollar machine andlives of your crew and
potentially the execution ofyour mission as well.
It's just, I think it doesn'thappen easily in any community.
(08:07):
And I found at four twenty seventhat they definitely take their
time upgrading people because ofthe level of responsibility that
you're given as a SOA commander.So it took me, I wanna say three
years to upgrade, which is aboutaverage. Yeah, getting that
stamp in your logbook where thecommander of four twenty seven
(08:30):
is like, Yep, I'm more thancompetent and happy with your
skillset and your test. Here'sthe keys to be an aircraft
commander.
You are now allowed to go dolive inserts with troops
dangling below your helicopteror go do live fires as required
or that kind of thing. So it wasa big responsibility and kind of
like a big achievement for mebecause of how difficult each of
(08:52):
these courses had been over timeto be given that kind of
responsibility. And I take itseriously, much like everyone
else does. Like these are realpeople in your aircraft and it's
a real mission that you might beperforming on behalf of Canada.
And we hand out thosequalifications easily.
Bryan (09:11):
No. That's a big day to get that stamp in your logbook
for sure. What was your firstflight like as a SOA commander?
Erin (09:19):
It was very slow. I did not let the FO do a lot. That's
for sure. So the other personflying the aircraft is someone
that we get along really well. Iquite like both of them.
Actually, we switched the FOshalfway through the flight. And
I think I probably told them toslow down each like four
different times. I think it'sbecause the first time you sent
out an aircraft yourself, you'relike, oh my gosh, this is my
(09:42):
responsibility right now.
Bryan (09:44):
A 100.
Erin (09:45):
Yeah. So it was more slow paced than normal, but it
doesn't take too much. Itdoesn't take too long for you to
get a little bit more confidentin your aircraft commander
qualities. Like I wouldn't havebeen given that qualification if
I wasn't able to salvage theaircraft from a bad approach,
but my two FOs put up with mefor that flight. And I think at
the end, one of them definitelywent a little faster than I was
(10:06):
expecting on one of ourmaneuvers, but we made it work.
So it was a fun flight. It'sstill in my logbook with a lot
of exclamation marks next to itfor sure. And those two guys,
they definitely put up with mebeing a little bit more nervous
than normal.
Bryan (10:19):
I think that's pretty common when you're doing your
first couple sign outs. I thinkthat the crews typically they
know they're probably gonna dealwith a little bit more
micromanagement and that that'llwear off over time as you gain
confidence and trust. Right?
Erin (10:34):
Yeah. Absolutely. It was it was pretty funny, but a
little bit more confident now,which is good.
Bryan (10:39):
Yeah. So you deployed to Iraq in 2020 and 2021 flying the
CH one forty six Griffin andamassing over 300 combat hours
and earning the general campaignstar expedition medal with bar.
Did you want to deploy, and didthe experience change you at all
as a person?
Erin (10:57):
Yeah. I definitely wanted to deploy. That was a a big goal
of mine. So I was very eager, togo do those two deployments. It
was a great way to consolidateeverything we've been learning
and to see how all of theseskills since you joined the
military could be brought tobear and put to use in an
operational environment.
That's not to say that folksthat don't deploy or have
(11:18):
domestic operational jobs aren'tequally as competent, they
absolutely are. It's just adifferent environment. And for
our mandate in SOF, that's partof what we do is go other
places. And I felt like how itchanged me was give me a very
good perspective on just howquickly we can carry out our
(11:39):
planning and get out the door asa team and do some pretty
complicated stuff as well. So Ithought it was a great way to
consolidate all of your skills.
And I think the most importantthing I got out of that, aside
from learning a lot was comingback much more confident as a
pilot as well. So I hadn'tupgraded before I left on those
two tours. I upgraded after. Butwhat was nice is that you can be
(12:03):
very I don't wanna saycomfortable is the wrong word
because you're always kindakeeping an eye on things
happening overseas. But you getto know the machine really well,
the process, the flow, and whatyou don't have is a whole bunch
of secondary duties.
So you can go do your flying, doyour debriefs, get ready for the
next thing, go to the gym,whatever you need to do. In my
case, I thought it was a geniusidea to also be in school, so I
(12:23):
was writing a thesis. But youdidn't have to worry about all
of the stuff you normally worryabout when you're at home at the
unit. So you're able to reallyconcentrate on just becoming a
really good pilot in that typeof environment.
Bryan (12:36):
Yeah. I totally agree. I think nothing consolidates your
skills, grows your confidence,grows your comfort with the
aircraft, like deploying andflying every day, every other
day, getting, you know, hundredsof hours in a time period that
maybe normally it would take youlike a year to get that kind of
time and you get it within, youknow, half a year or something.
(12:56):
It's really, really good for youas a pilot.
Erin (12:58):
Yeah. And to see as well, like you get to you get very
used to the area around yourhome base. Right? I mean, I
would probably still not begreat at finding my way around
the ranges in Petawawa. I stillneed the still need a map for
that.
But I think what's what's greatis seeing different
environments, differentgeography, all that different
stuff gives you an appreciationfor what the machine can do in a
(13:21):
different environment as well.I'd never been somewhere where
it's that hot before. Mhmm. I'dnever had to deal with actual,
you know, dust storms andsandstorms and that kind of
thing and having to make sort ofweather calls sort of on the fly
to make sure things could work.And there was this huge
consolidation of skills when itcomes to dealing with different
weather, different topography,and dealing with mountains as
(13:43):
well in the Griffin, which whenit's hot is always an
interesting experience.
So yeah, I think it's important.And if anyone ever gives you the
opportunity to deploy,especially as a pilot, just take
it. Like, you will you'll youprobably won't regret it. It's
some of the best best learningyou can do, I think.
Bryan (14:03):
100%. It's it shapes your career.
Erin (14:06):
100%.
Bryan (14:08):
So you have a call sign sparkles. What's the story
behind that?
Erin (14:12):
Oh my gosh. Normally, have to buy someone a beer if you
want them to tell you, butthat's okay. So it wasn't
officially assigned, but it ithappened at in Fort Drum. I was
doing my close combat attackcourse where you learn how to
coordinate fires, peopleshooting out of your helicopter,
(14:35):
which is complicated because howwe used to do it was essentially
on paper. So we didn't have aniPad.
They wanted you to do your sortof figure out where you are,
where you're going, what yourfires pattern is gonna look
like, and all that coordinationon paper at night in the middle
of the winter in Fort Drum, NewYork. So I was already kind of
miserable and I'd been havingsome trouble with the geometry
(14:56):
and I had a 50 cal, I think onthe right. So one of our door
gunners, they're crew serveweapons. So they were on the
right hand side and then aregular light machine gun on the
left. And we were in a formationand we were given a fire mission
to go blow up some fake enemy orsomething like that by a bunch
of trainee JTACs from The USforces.
(15:17):
There was probably about 10people on the ground that were
learning how to call in fires.And so we were X number of
minutes away. We get the call, Itake the fire mission, come up
with my plan. I'm doing thisgeometry in my head. I'm like,
Oh man, it's actually working.
This is great. I brief my planon the radio. It's fantastic. We
kind of tip in to go towards ourtarget. When you are en route to
(15:38):
your target, you're nice andlow.
You want to maximize yoursurprise. And then at a given
distance, you'll kind of pop upboth helicopters spread out a
little bit and then put yourfires on target once you've
identified it. The JTACs, thefolks on the ground, were also a
distance away from the target,but you can do something called
sparkle or sparkling, andthey'll put a laser on the
(16:01):
target so it's easier for you toidentify it. So we were bumped
up and I looked at my 01:00 forlike 500 meters and I actually
saw the target, which had been aproblem all night. And I got so
excited that rather than saywhat I was supposed to say,
which was to this call sign,know, such and such a flight,
(16:21):
sparkle on.
That's all I had to say. And hewould have sparkled the target
and I would have told my doorgunner to shoot it. I squeaked
over the radio that everybodywas listening to, including the
CO at that time, because he'dcome down to visit this whole
giant exercise. And rather thansay all cool, calm, and
collected what I was supposed tosay on the radio, I literally
yelled, Sparkles, please. Andall of a sudden there is 10
(16:44):
lasers on this target.
And my door gunner, I think shejust was like, oh, there's 10
lasers. Was gonna start shootingstuff. And I'm like, oh my gosh,
I didn't actually give you thecommand to fire, cease fire. And
then my instructor kind oflooked over. This is nighttime,
so I can just see his eyes andhis mustache and the glow of the
NBGs.
And he's just sort of shakinghis head. And I'm like, Oh, I
(17:05):
think I just failed my flight.And we get back and these giant
super muscular JTACs kind ofstarted chanting sparkles, which
was entertaining as I'm tryingto eat my dinner. So for a while
I was known as Sparkles and Irelayed this story to folks at
NASA because no one called methat really back home. And
(17:25):
they're like, That is amazing.
We're going to call youSparkles. That's the most
ridiculous thing we've everheard. And these are all, like,
marine astronauts or whatever,so they know what fires are
supposed to sound like on theradio, and it's not sparkles,
please. So that's where thatthat's where that came from is
another one of my gaffes, butthat's okay.
Bryan (17:43):
Oh, man. No. That's awesome. That's a great story.
Erin (17:46):
Yeah.
Bryan (17:48):
Alright. So while you were upgrading, you served as a
flight safety officer, standardsand training flight operations
officer, and created the spaceliaison officer position at four
two seven squadron whilecompleting a master's in space
science. How did you jugglethese diverse responsibilities,
and what did you learn aboutyourself?
Erin (18:06):
I don't know. Man, I think I've blacked out that entire
period of my life. So the flightoffice flight safety officer job
was super interesting. I endedup doing that overseas on my
last tour because weunfortunately couldn't send one
of our pilots who were supposedto, and we found out we were
going to have this gap. So Iquickly did that course and
ended up really enjoying it.
(18:28):
So being a flight safety officeroverseas is a secondary duty. It
ends up being relatively busy.There's usually little things
going on, so you learn a lotdoing that and integrating into
the larger task force as well.And then I came home and I would
on occasion cover off the flightunit flight safety officer, but
he went away. Or I act as aflight safety officer on the
(18:49):
road for my flight when we weredoing training elsewhere.
So it's a secondary duty, butsometimes if something happens,
it ends up being quite busy. ButI enjoy the investigation part
and trying to figure out whathappened and making sure that
you are doing your part andmaking sure that your teammates
are able to work in a safeenvironment. Like, I'm really
bought into the flight safetymantra, which is it's as it's
(19:13):
not about punishing people. It'sabout finding the solution to
make sure we don't do it again.So I'm I'm really into that
because it helps keep your teamsafe, and everyone can learn
from those mistakes, right?
Bryan (19:22):
A 100%.
Erin (19:23):
And you talk to, yeah, you talk to any pilot, we've all
made a mistake. It's just amatter of time.
Bryan (19:28):
Oh yeah.
Erin (19:28):
And so the best thing we can do is capture that and be
totally upfront about it andjust report it so everyone else
can learn too. So I've had myown couple of flight safeties
here and there. I think everyonehas, there are just things that
happen. Yeah, and then thestandards and training
operations officer job, that's aspecific flight at 04:27 that's
(19:51):
responsible not only for ourselection course, the special
operations tactical aviatorscourse, but also all of these
standards across the squadron aswell. So as the operations
officer, you're managing all ofthat along with your schedule
and helping get SOTAC ready andall of the internal training we
have to do at 04:27 as well.
So whether it's more CCA orgoing out to work with boats or
(20:13):
doing an exercise that involvesour standards pilots and flight
engineers. It was incrediblybusy. And I wasn't expecting to
get this job after my last tour,but I was very fortunate that I
had some good mentors, some goodoperations officers I was able
to learn from. And I had afantastic group of people to
work with. My flight commander,she was amazing as were all of
(20:37):
the senior pilots that work instandards and training.
So I had very good support andmy ops warrant as well. My ops
warrant probably could have donethis job on his own. I don't
know if he actually needed me,but he was a fantastic mentor.
So we worked really welltogether to pull off some very
complex, but very necessarytraining. And I think in a
normal environment, given thelevel and complexity of
(21:00):
operations that we supported inorder to train, not just our own
staff, but mixed in with therest of the command, we probably
should have had a cell of aboutsix people, but it was normally
just me and my ops weren't.
So it was definitely busy.Again, not sure why I chose to
try and do a master's degree atthe same time, write a thesis.
(21:20):
But my roommate at the time wasalso super supportive. If he saw
me kind of freaking out at somethesis or course that wasn't
working, he'd quietly leave andlike come back with Starbucks
and chips. So I had fantasticsupport throughout those years,
but I was also given I wasn'ttold to not do my master's
(21:42):
degree.
They were very supportive ofthat as well. I didn't take any
time off for it, but
Bryan (21:45):
there
Erin (21:46):
was definitely times when my deputy officer commanding or
my flight commander were like,We're gonna write a leave pass
for you, so you go take a breakbecause you're working a lot. So
it was a good team. And I thinkthat's honestly how I was able
to manage all of those differentthings at once, that and an
excessive amount of caffeine.But again, it was about relying
(22:09):
on the team and also the missionwas really important to me too,
making sure that the people thatwere training had relevant
training in the right amount oftime to make sure that they were
ready for their next careerstep. So I think being
passionate about the missionmade that job easier, as busy as
it was with the other thingsthat I was doing.
Bryan (22:29):
Yeah, for sure. It's always easier to kind of bury
yourself into your work if it'ssomething you're passionate
about.
Erin (22:34):
Yep.
Bryan (22:37):
So we've been talking a lot about mentorship. If you're
going to pay it forward andprovide some mentorship to young
women who may be listening, whatadvice would you give them if
they are looking at pursuingdifficult or male dominated
careers like you have done?
Erin (22:51):
I would say just to just to go for it. And in fact, I
think that advice is applicableto to men and women.
Bryan (22:59):
For sure.
Erin (23:00):
There's a lot of pressure in society to do certain things
a certain way and to maybe notalways push yourself to a point
of failure. A lot of people liketo know everything before they
try stuff. But honestly, just tobe open and to try, even though
you might not be successful,there's no harm in trying. Just
(23:22):
don't have any regrets. And youmight meet people along the way
that are gonna tell you you'renot capable or you shouldn't
try, or that's really weird,whatever.
If you are interested, justtrust yourself that you probably
have the skills or you'll learnthe skills to make it through.
Just honestly, just give it ashot and ask questions along the
way and be open to what happens.If it doesn't always go right,
(23:46):
it doesn't mean that it's thewrong decision for you. You just
might have to rejig about howyou're going to approach that
problem. But these jobs are foreverybody, not just one type of
person.
In fact, I think to besuccessful and to win the wars
of the future, we're going tohave to have people that can
think around abstract problemsand we're going to need people
(24:07):
that are not exactly the same.We have to have people with
different backgrounds in orderto combat those abstract
threats. So everyone hassomething to offer, and I'd love
to see more people doing thesetrades and giving these hard
things a try. You learn a lotabout yourself and you get to do
some rad stuff along the waywhile serving your country. I
(24:28):
think it's fantastic.
Bryan (24:29):
That's awesome. And I I totally agree. That advice is
really good for anybody who'slistening, whether they are a
man or a woman or I think thatthat applies to everybody. So,
Erin, as we mentioned, yourfirst experience working in the
space field was when you createdthe space liaison officer
position at four two sevensquadron. How did it come about
that you created this positionand what exactly did it entail?
Erin (24:52):
Yeah. I was actually partly through my selection
course at four two seven, and wewere just learning about
planning and that kind of stuff.And I obviously before that had
done TAFOS, the tactical firstofficers course down at, or over
I should suppose, at four zerothree Squadron Engage Town. And
I'd noticed in that course thatwe weren't involving a lot of
(25:15):
chitchat about potential denialsituations when it came to GPS.
And I think just given myinterest in all of things to do
with space, that I was curiousif that information existed or
was consolidated somewhere.
So I poked around and asked somefolks. At the time in the Air
Force, DG Space was responsiblefor that type of information,
(25:40):
but very much at the stratlevel. So honestly just fired a
couple emails, probablyshouldn't have, but directly to
lieutenant colonels that wereworking at CANSPAC. And one of
them, he's probably a colonelnow, but Colonel Lacass emailed
me back. He's like, I like youridea of bringing this
information down to the tacticallevel.
We've been trying to find waysto kind of get ourselves into
(26:02):
these various planning rooms,but it is difficult. We all know
that the military is a littlebit siloed. If you don't, you
don't know what you don't know.And I'd been one of those nerds
that was like, I'm gonna take abunch of online courses too,
like the basic space operationscourse and the advanced space
operations course because I haveso much time. And so kind of
combining that and just noticinggaps here and there, I'm like, I
(26:25):
think we can address some ofthis.
So started having someinteresting conversations with
the folks over at space and theywere standing up their own
division at the time. And so itwas a really fortuitous timing,
I think, with the RCF kind ofreleasing their white paper and
deciding that, you know what,we're really gonna focus on
space. This is obviously our newoperating environment, and we
(26:46):
can't do our jobs across theCAF, whether you're a pilot or
driving boats or you're on a gunline. Everyone requires the
safe, not safe necessarily, butaccess to space at the very
least to do our jobs or at leastto do our jobs more easily. So I
wrote a briefing note and one ofthe things I learned at four
(27:08):
twenty seven, even though I wasincredibly junior there, still
in my course, under evaluationas to whether or not they'd keep
me.
I think I wrote that briefingnote in a tent actually after
hours. And I submitted it viachain that I had. And the CEO's
like, I think this is a goodidea. He's like, Don't embarrass
(27:30):
me, but I want you to continuewith this idea. I think this has
some legs.
So started working with our intcell as well, and it kind of
grew from there. And to behonest, I think a lot of places
were doing that at the sametime. I'm sure The US forces
were trying to figure out waysto implement more space
mindedness in their tacticallevel planning. And that's
(27:52):
really all it was, was justtrying to collapse that
information that kind of getsstuck at a high level sometimes
and just bring it down to thewarfighter level. And so it was
difficult just because noteveryone's busy and we have a
certain way of doing things.
So when you suddenly say like,Hey, we're gonna introduce a new
planning paradigm here. Therewasn't resistance necessarily. I
(28:13):
think it was more or less justunderstanding why it was so
relevant. And obviously I couldgo on about it all day and
there's more to it than justGPS, but critical, it is
absolutely critical to allwarfighters across any element,
especially these days that wehave that access to space and we
understand the implications ofnot having it and being prepared
to fight a battle when thataccess to various tools is
(28:37):
either denied or degraded. Andhow can we do that to a
potential enemy as well?
So it's just a different way ofthinking. It's another tool. I
hate this term, but it's anothertool in the toolbox for people.
And I think someone eventuallywould have done that anyway.
It's just I happened to be thatnerd that had no life apparently
and thought that writing abriefing note was a good idea.
(28:58):
But I also appreciate that. It'sone thing I noticed at four
twenty seven is we are quitelateral. And if you have an idea
and you can substantiate it,they'll probably let you run
with it. And so it's been goingfor a while. Someone else took
over for me when I was postedout of there and they've grown
it into something even biggerand they have involved more EW
stuff and it's fantastic.
Bryan (29:18):
Mhmm.
Erin (29:19):
But it's an important capacity and capability I think
that every tactical unit has tostart doing. We all have to be
more space literate because weit's a lot more difficult to do
our jobs when you don't haveaccess to
Bryan (29:30):
it. Yeah. Absolutely. And you mentioned EW there, that's
electronic warfare. And it'sinteresting.
I so one of my old COs who isnow retired was Mike Adamson,
who was the first commander ofthree Canadian Space Division.
And he's an amazing guy, one ofthe best mentors I ever had. And
at one point we had talked andand I may still do this with
(29:52):
eventually with whichever personis in command of the Canadian
Space Division at the time. Butwe had talked about doing an
interview. It didn't end uplining up.
But as part of that preinterview, we spoke and he was
telling me a little bit aboutbasically just how dependent
everyday life is. Like forgetabout even combat. Everyday life
is dependent on space access andsafe access to space. You you
(30:16):
then add a layer of of combat tothat, and it's it's just
absolutely critical like youwere saying.
Erin (30:22):
Yeah. Mister Adamson was also my first division commander
as well.
Intro/Outro (30:27):
He was the one who was in
Erin (30:28):
place when he posted me down here to NASA. Fantastic
person to work for. Mhmm. Andit's brigadier general Chris
Horner now. But he's similarlyas focused on ensuring that
Canadians just by and large haveaccess to space.
It's like commerce shuts down,your ability to navigate your
aircraft in the civilian contextshuts down if we don't have
access to these tools. They'vebecome completely integrated
(30:50):
into our lives, like you said.So that division essentially
exists to make sure that anythreats that exist to Canada in
the space domain are identifiedbecause it is absolutely
essential for our society andour economy that we are able to
maintain that access to space.I'm sure the space div will be
so happy to have such a plugabout this, but that division,
(31:13):
seven wing space, and the twosquadrons that comprise that
wing are very busyoperationalizing themselves to
make sure we're closing anygaps. And they're always looking
for people too.
So if people are interested inspace, there's always a
crossover with piloting,absolutely, but it's an option
for people too. And it's been areally big pleasure learning how
(31:33):
they've integrated themselvesand and what it is they're doing
to operationalize to make surethat we're meeting those new
threats.
Bryan (31:39):
Mhmm. There's been a bit of a theme of interest in space.
We've talked about this beforewith you taking on geology. Was
the position with NASA somethingyou had long had in mind, or was
it more of an opportunity thatcame up?
Erin (31:52):
So that is an interesting question. The position actually
didn't exist until a coupleyears ago. At NASA, there's
always been sorry, I should sayvery specifically at the Johnson
Space Center where I work downhere in Houston. For a long time
within the astronaut office,there's been a military liaison
office. And they've brought invarious US service members over
(32:15):
the years to learn how to beCAPCOMs and do other work around
the office that matches theirskill sets.
There's a lot of engineering andtest flying and that kind of
stuff, report writing and thatkind of thing that the
astronauts need help with. So ifyou have a background in
engineering or space sciences,it's a pretty awesome place to
end up for a few years. But ourtwo RCF colonels that are
(32:38):
astronauts as well, Josh Kutrickand Jeremy Hansen, were kind of
like, Hey, there's a lot of workin this office, like technical
engineering work that we couldprobably use some expertise on
or just an extra body that mightbe able to work on some of this
stuff. Maybe we should approachthe CSA, the Canadian Space
Agency, and our home division,3DIV, to see if we wanna see if
(33:00):
there's a way to bring down aCanadian. So they sat down and
created the position, sort ofworking with the Canadian Space
Agency as well.
And they put out a coursesolicitation. It's not a course
solicitation, but a solicitationmessage for the position. And I
remember seeing it and 15different people emailed me
about it. And I'm like, I'm notgonna get that position. I don't
even think I'm gonna botherapplying.
(33:21):
They're gonna give it to sometest pilot or whatever. And I
was super busy doing an out ofcountry training exercise with
my flight and just dealing withall the regular things that OpsO
deals with when you're away fromyour home unit. And again, that
same mentor, she was like, Erin,I really want you to apply for
this job. I think you willregret it if you don't try and
(33:43):
apply for this job. I'm like, Idon't have time, ma'am.
Like, I'm busy trying to runyour unit right now and get all
your candidates through thiscourse. And she's like, listen,
I'll fix the schedule. Like, Iwill manage a portion of your
ops duties. Like, just go gosubmit your application for
this. And so I did and didn'tthink I'd get it.
And a little while later heardback that they wanted to bring
(34:06):
me in for an interview. And thatinterview ended up being with
some representatives from thedivision with Jeremy Hansen
himself, a person who ended upbeing my current boss, so a
branch chief from the crewoffice, James Kelly, who's a
retired astronaut, and a fewother folks, I think from HQ and
Carling. And again, I did theinterview. It went really well.
(34:28):
I did my best to prepare againby overreacting to how much
stuff I should probably learnabout reading white papers and
learning all about what the CSAis up to these days and what
Capcoms do.
And again, I'm like, I'm notgonna get it. I'm sure they're
gonna hire a test pilot. And Igot a call later to my ops
office. I was back in Canada andmy warrant kinda looked at me.
(34:49):
He's like, is that an astronauton the phone?
And Jeremy had called the officeand said, hey, you did really
well in an interview. We thinkyou've got the best personality
that's gonna fit down here forthis job that's got like so many
different things going on. Yourbackground is perfect for the
kinds of things we want you todo down here. Would you like to
come work with me at NASA? AndI'm pretty sure I swore at him
(35:10):
in the phone.
Like, I didn't say heck yes. Isaid something else, but I'm
like, absolutely. When do youwant me to show up? And like
within three months, I was downin Houston. So it's not
something that I thought I'dever be able to do.
I've always been interested inspace, but until I started
getting involved a little bitmore in the military side, I
didn't really know that therewas a way to get down to NASA
other than being an astronaut.And this job has definitely
(35:32):
provided that experience for me.So I get to do a lot of the same
training that they've done and Imanage their schedules and their
training as an operationsofficer. So I get to do a lot of
the same stuff except go tospace. But yeah, it just
happened to be a position thatshowed up at exactly the right
time.
I had the right education, theright experience, the right
(35:55):
operational background, and itall kind of just came together.
And every single thing I've donethroughout my life from geology
to diving to flying tooperations, like maybe the
exception of the art gallery,all of it has come together in
this job. So it's been prettycool.
Bryan (36:09):
That seems to be another recurring theme that we've
talked we we kind of mentionedin the first episode that
anything is possible. Anotherrecurring theme within your
career just seems to be that allthese things just come together.
All these experiences contributeto the whole, and you seem to be
able to put them to use in otherenvironments.
Erin (36:26):
And, yeah, NASA well, I found that CanSoftcom was also
very good at this. If you have aparticular skill set or a
competency, they'll find a wayto leverage it. And then NASA's
very much the same way. I wassupposed to go down there, very
do my CAPCOM training, whichtakes about a year. It's very
engineering heavy.
You take a bunch of classes andyou sit console and work as a
(36:48):
CAPCOM once you've finished yourqualification about once a week.
And then the rest of the time, Ithink the plan was to offer a
little bit of administrativeassistance here and there to the
Canadian Astronaut Corps. Andthen that got blown up into, Oh
my gosh, Erin used to be anoperations officer, and she's a
helicopter pilot, and she's gota background in geology. We have
(37:09):
a hole in the operations office.We need an OPSO.
Johnny Kim is probably gonna getassigned. He's the medical
doctor, Navy SEAL astronaut guy.Yeah. Yeah. No big deal.
I'll just take over his job,guys. What?
Bryan (37:21):
Yeah. He's pretty famous.
Erin (37:23):
He's he's he's an amazing guy. We didn't have much of a
handover, but we're alsostarting to use helicopters a
lot more in astronaut trainingas well. And they said, Listen,
you're the only currentqualified helicopter pilot that
we have available. How do youfeel about helping us with this
acquisition program anddesigning us a training plan
that matches the skills that theastronauts will need to kind of
(37:45):
get repetitions with when theyland on the moon. It's not a
perfect analog, but some of thatthinking in the vertical domain
and dealing with visualillusions and that kind of
stuff.
I'm like, yeah, sure, guys. Ican do that. And same with the
geology is learning about lunargeology and how it applies to
the ops that we're trying to dodown there and make sure that
the training that we're givingour astronauts makes sense. So
(38:06):
all of these things have cometogether in this job. And
despite, you know, I don't havea background, like a
professional background indesigning training syllabuses
and managing astronaut training,but all of the stuff I've done
in the CAF has inadvertentlyvery much prepared me for this
job.
And it's also very extremelyrare that I think that NASA,
(38:28):
after only knowing you for alittle while, would say, yes,
let's give you a deputy branchchief job normally held by a
colonel astronaut because you'vebeen vetted and vouched for by
two Canadians that we reallyrespect. And we're confident
that if they've assessed yourbackground as appropriate for
this, we trust that the trainingthey've had from the air force
as well has prepared them to beastronauts. We think you can do
(38:50):
this operations job and be adeputy branch chief. So it's a
huge responsibility. It's veryhumbling, I'll say that much.
And it's also a lot of work, butit is absolutely amazing to be
leveraged to the extent of yourcapacity with all of the skills
that you have. It's kind of aneat position to be in. You get
to use everything you've everlearned.
Bryan (39:11):
Yeah. No kidding.
Erin (39:13):
Mhmm.
Bryan (39:14):
So you mentioned that you had about three months from that
phone call with Jeremy Hansen toyour posting starting in
Houston, which must have beenhectic. What were the first few
months like after moving there,and what were there any initial
challenges?
Erin (39:26):
You know what? I think the biggest challenge was they told
me about the weather, but no onetold me about the flying
cockroaches. Right? That was athing that no one told me was a
thing here. Like giant tunafish.
The what? Flying cockroaches,man. Oh, no. It's insane. I'm
joking.
And alligators. No. The biggestchallenge probably was just like
(39:47):
the little administrative stuffwhile you're trying to get going
in a new country. The move wentreally well, no complaints
there. I handed over all myduties.
That was a bit of a stressor.Managed to get my last I did my
instrument rating exam andanother APC just so I was
current when I arrived. Wedidn't know necessarily what
kind of qualifications I neededto keep.
Bryan (40:07):
And for the listeners, an APC is an annual proficiency
check. It's basically youryearly flight test.
Erin (40:13):
But it's just a little stuff like getting a driver's
license and trying to figure outhow the Internet works down here
with all the different peopleand what rate I should choose
for power billing and that kindof thing. But the Canadians that
are already down here were superhelpful. They had a bunch of
tips and tricks about how tomake that work. And Josh,
Jeremy, and Jenny, Jenny Gibbonsis our civilian Canadian
(40:37):
astronaut who's also down herefull time. And we have a bunch
of full time CSA, Canadian SpaceAgency liaison engineers.
They were all very excited tohave another Canadian. So they
were also super helpful. So Iwasn't in need of a lot of like,
extra assistance because theywere all down here ready to
help. So Mhmm. I think honestly,the worst thing was getting used
to the humidity down here in theAugust.
(40:59):
That was something else.
Bryan (41:00):
Oh, I can only imagine. We were chatting about the
weather just before theinterview today. And what you
described for me was alreadylike, it's the middle of winter
and that's like pretty hot, theweather you guys have right now.
Like, that's about the limit ofmy comfort zone.
Erin (41:16):
I can't imagine in summer. August is wild. It was like 40 I
at one point, it was 46 degrees,and I'm like, I can't do this.
Bryan (41:24):
Wow. That's like reminds me of being in Kuwait, except
there's also humidity.
Erin (41:29):
Yeah. It's the humidity that's a killer for sure.
Bryan (41:31):
Yeah. So what was your first impression of NASA when
you got there?
Erin (41:38):
In a lot of ways, it actually reminded me a little
bit of SOF in that everyone whois there from your maintenance
engineers that take care of thebuildings for you to the
astronauts and everybody inbetween wants to be working
there. So it's just everyone'sexcited about it and everyone's
also a 100% bought into theirmission as well. Regardless of
(42:00):
what portion of the missionthey're working on, you have
people who are working on theInternational Space Station
mission, or you've got peopleworking on exploration. So going
back to the moon, working onthat mission, people are
dedicated and they're veryexcited about going to work
every day. And it's incrediblebecause it's such a big facility
down here that so many people,thousands of people are excited
(42:23):
to be here every day to makesure that we're getting folks
back and forth to station andcompleting science and then
getting people ready to go tothe moon and getting all of that
technology ready.
So I think that was the firstthing that struck me was was
just how cool it was, but alsohow humble and down to earth
everybody is. That was kindacool.
Bryan (42:42):
Yeah. Which is interesting that you mentioned
the parallels between there andthe soft world because that
that's something that alwaysseems to be a common factor when
you meet someone who's worked insoft or a Sartech, for example.
They just seem to be these,like, humble, quiet
professionals.
Erin (43:00):
Yeah. Absolutely. And similarly with the astronauts,
like, you bump into them hereand there. Like, oh, hey. How
are you doing?
I'm like, I'm talking to someonewho's been to space three times.
This is pretty cool, but we'retalking about how humid it is
outside. So it's a really neatplace to work for that. And
what's nice is you areimmediately accepted as a peer
(43:20):
and as an equal. And it's beenassessed that you have something
to offer and we're happy to haveyou here, so let's get to work.
And that was kind of noticed onSomething I noticed on day one
of something that we callSpaceflight Academy. Everyone
who's brought in to potentiallywork in mission control ends up
doing about two and a half orthree months of Spaceflight
(43:44):
Academy, which is like welcometo NASA in an onboarding of how
this place works, how the flightoperations directorate works,
which is responsible for all ofthe engineering disciplines that
keep station running. And it'ssort of how we train everybody
to work in those disciplines.And pretty much day one, the
other thing I noticed too, asidefrom people being super humble,
(44:05):
is how much they emphasize thatyou have to be ready to ask
questions if you don'tunderstand because mistakes here
can potentially cost lives. Andone of the first things we
talked about were the errorsthat led to the accidents that
we've had that were serious andwe lost lives.
So they put that on, they weartheir heart in a sleeve and they
understand that you are here todo a job, you're gonna be
(44:27):
responsible for a system.Potentially you will be making
calls in the mission controlroom that are life or death
sometimes. So let's get ready todo that kind of work and be
super professional. And it'sinteresting seeing these like
20, 21 year old engineers justlike totally take that
environment and they're learninghow to be operational for the
first time. So it's interestinghow they can kind of get you
(44:49):
into that mode within aboutthree months with how they do
their initial training here.
Bryan (44:54):
Man, that sounds amazing.
Erin (44:56):
So
Bryan (44:58):
you had talked a little bit about what the job at NASA
initially consisted of, but itquickly exploded into something
way more complex, impactful, andinvolved than you initially
expected. At this point, youhave three official job titles.
NASA astronaut office deputybranch chief for crew
operations, Canadian astronautcoordination officer, and
International Space Stationcapsule communicator or ISS
(45:21):
CAPCOM. Let's talk about yourrole as Canadian astronaut
coordination officer first. Youwere the first ever Canadian
astronaut coordination officer.
What does this role entail?
Erin (45:30):
Yeah. So that was the working title for the first go
at that job that we had. And theastronauts don't really need a
lot of administrative support.So that jobs more or less become
having an extra Canadian officerdown here and finding ways to
help the CSA and the astronautskind of link back to Canada in
(45:51):
different ways and maybe pick upsome of the projects we've been
working on that we just didn'thave the astronauts may not have
had enough time to really focuson. Probably the best example of
trying to work those linkagesbetween someone here, human
spaceflight and the RCAF is thework we've been doing in the SAR
community on the East Coast tomake sure that our SAR techs get
(46:12):
the same training that the USAir Force DET three human
spaceflight support people get.
And that's what happens in theevent of an abort and how you
get those astronauts out of acapsule. So now because there
was someone here who had time, alittle bit of time to kind of
reach back and knew some folksat JRCC, the Joint Rescue
Coordination Center, to try andget those relationships reforged
(46:34):
and find opportunities. Sothat's been a big thing is like,
if there is a gap, if I can seeit, I'll try and get it closed.
And that's just by way of thefact you have I mean, I've been
in for fifteen years. I guessyou have a a senior salty
captain that can kinda reachback into the air force and say,
hey.
I think there's some there's amutual benefit here. How can we
exploit that? The astronauts andthe Canadians are no different.
(46:57):
They're super busy and theydon't necessarily have time to
try and find those gaps or closethem. And they've also been out
of regular air force stuff forquite some time too.
And I had just come out of anoperational unit. So helping
GRCC get more information thathelps them make better
operational calls for theirstaff, that was really important
to me because it helps us buydown risk, not just for the
(47:19):
astronauts, but for the CERTXtoo. Getting people out of a
capsule or helping them getthemselves out of a capsule is
complicated. So I want them tohave the tools and the training
that they need to do thatsafely. So getting that bridge
built was really important.
And that was something that hadbeen languishing for a little
bit simply because of time andturnover. But having someone
here that can pick it up ishelpful. And similarly, just
(47:41):
because of gaps, unintentional,but gaps in international
agreements, there's some coursesthat international astronauts
can't participate in. So one ofthose courses is the helicopter
course that we do for most ofour NASA astronauts. So Jenny
Gibbons, she's a doctor in Ithink physics, but she is also a
commercial pilot, but she's nota military pilot.
(48:04):
So I was really interested intrying to get her the same type
of military helicopter trainingthat our NASA astronauts do. But
I thought one of the best wayswe can do that is probably going
to Portage. Like our bestinstructors, well, lots of our
really good instructors work atthree CFFTS. So I approached
honestly the fifteen wingcommander and said, Is this
something you think you can do?Here's the reasons why can we
(48:27):
build a similar course for Jennyin Portage because that is a
center of excellence forhelicopter training, for primary
helicopter training.
And it would be a perfectsolution and allow her to
continue with more advancedtraining that we do out here
that is available tointernational partner
astronauts. So that CACOposition has kind of just become
another ops job with a biggerfocus on how we can find
(48:51):
linkages back to the RCF. Andyou guys, I guess I'm part of
you guys as well. The RCF isreally well respected down here
for, you know, for what Jeremyand Josh have received in terms
of their training and leadershiptraining. So it's not unusual
that NASA would be more thancomfortable to have Canada more
deeply involved in some of thattraining.
(49:12):
So the job went fromadministration to essentially a
more Canadian focused ops job.And that's kind of how I see it
is just a way to build bridgesbecause there are a lot of
things that Canada brings to thetable. It's just a matter of
having a person, like a body,able to devote time to to make
that known. That makes sense.
Bryan (49:30):
Yeah. Wow. So that job has really changed from kind of
what it was initially supposedto be to what it has evolved
into.
Erin (49:37):
Yeah. That's also my problem too because I I just
can't leave things alone. So itdefinitely it definitely
probably took on more than wasrequired, but it's hard for me
to see a gap in capability thatI know could be filled with a
little bit of effort. And peoplein Canada have been very
receptive as well. Like I'msuper appreciative of how much
effort GRCC with their alreadyincredibly busy mandate on the
(50:02):
East Coast and the West Coastshortly too, have been devoting
just a little bit of extra timeto the space file here.
And I think it's good extrasituational awareness for them
so that everyone's a little bitsafer. I don't anticipate an
abort. They're super rare. It'snot a thing that happens very
often, but there is always thatpotential. And you wanna arm
(50:25):
people with as much informationas possible if that were to
happen.
I don't want them if there's away to close that gap, I'm gonna
close it. And that's kind ofwhat this job has become.
Bryan (50:33):
Yeah, for sure. Okay, Aaron, that's gonna wrap up part
two of our chat for today. Ireally, really enjoyed hearing
about your time in four twoseven Squadron as well as the
beginning of your time down inHouston. And I'm really looking
forward to finishing up our chatnext time and hearing about all
the work you're doing with theCanadian Space Agency and NASA.
So thank you very much.
Erin (50:52):
Thank you.
Bryan (50:53):
Alright. That wraps up part two of our chat with
captain Erin Edwards, thecurrent jack of all trades
working for the Canadian SpaceAgency down in Houston. For our
next episode, we'll bereconnecting with Erin for the
final part of our discussion andtalking all about her work with
the Canadian Space Agency andNASA. Do you have any questions
or comments about anythingyou've heard in this show? Would
you or someone you know make agreat guest, or do you have a
(51:15):
great idea for a show?
You can reach out to us at thepilotprojectpodcast@Gmail.com or
on all social media at at podpilot project. And be sure to
check out that social media forlots of great videos of our RCAF
aircraft. As always, we'd liketo thank you for tuning in and
ask for your help with the bigthree. That's like and follow us
on social media, share with yourfriends, and follow and rate us
(51:36):
five stars wherever you get yourpodcasts. That's all for now.
Thanks for listening. Keep theblue side up. See you.
Intro/Outro (51:45):
Engineer, shut down all four. Shutting down all four
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Intro/Outro (00:30):
Fuel and ignition switches. On. RPM switches. Set.
PD switches.
Normal. Doors and hatches.Closed. Lay down. Stroblade.
On. Research check-in. Completewith your left. Engineer. Start
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Starting to. Wing three one zeroten, pilot project podcast.
(00:50):
Clear takeoff runway 31 left.
Bryan (00:58):
Alright. We're ready for departure here at the pilot
project podcast, the best sourcefor stories and advice from RCAF
and mission aviation pilotsbrought to you by Sky's
Magazine. I'm your host, BrianMorrison. With me today is
captain Aaron Edwards, an RCAFpilot who is a Canadian capsule
communicator or CAPCOM currentlyworking with NASA. Erin, welcome
back to the show, and thanksonce again for being here.
Erin (01:18):
Thank you. Happy to be here.
Bryan (01:20):
Listeners can check out part one to hear about Erin's
early career and training. Fortoday, we'll be focusing on her
operational career and her timeat four two seven as well as the
beginning of her journey ofworking with the Canadian Space
Agency and NASA. So gettingslotted for four two seven
Squadron is only half thebattle. To really get there,
you've got to pass a rigorousselection course for CANsoftcom
(01:42):
at four two seven. You are oneof a handful of women to pass
this course and eventuallyqualify as a special operations
aircraft commander.
What can you tell us if anythingabout selection and what did you
learn about yourself bycompleting it?
Erin (01:54):
Yeah, it was probably one of the best courses that I think
I've been on. It was about fourand a half months long. Wow. And
you learn, yeah, you learneverything from a green phase
where you're off in the woods,learning all those types of
skills. It's like doing aircrewsurvival, but plussed up a lot.
(02:15):
You do a big shooting package aswell. They want you to be
competent with your weapons to apretty high standard given what
happens if a helicopter has togo down and you are able to
extricate yourself, you mightnot be the mission at that
point. So you'll have to be selfsufficient. So weapons
proficiency is very important.As is learning the differences
(02:36):
between sort of conventionalplanning and planning in a
special operations environmentin that kind of multiple
different units working togetherto do things in a very short
amount of time.
So the course is pretty long.There's a lot of different
things that happen on it. Andthe point is to try and stress
(02:58):
you out a fair bit and make surethat you're working as a team.
And I think the most importantthing for me on that selection
course is that it didn't matterwhat your rank was. Everyone
there had some kind of skillsetthat was required.
So you're doing a course withpilots, with flight engineers
and with your door gunners aswell. And so solving some of the
problems that they give you, itdoesn't matter whether you're
(03:20):
the officer or not, they want tosee the team come up with a
cohesive plan. And maybe thebest plan comes from the master
bombardier who has anastrophysics degree. The crazy
diversity of the people on thatcourse was wild. None of us had
the same background and all ofus had some random life
experience, which I think wasprobably part of the purpose.
(03:41):
So you're able to come up withsome really interesting
solutions to very difficultabstract problems because
everyone there has had crazyexperiences in their life. I'd
say the thing I learned the mostwas to trust my team. As much as
I talked about teamwork in thepast, that's a long time to be
with a group of people under afair amount of stress and you
(04:03):
get to know them in and out. Wespent a little while sleeping on
the side of the airfield in atent together. And then we spent
some time learning more thingsabout ourselves under a little
bit of duress in our contactafter capture phase.
But it was an interesting coursein that it exposed everybody's
vulnerabilities at one point oranother. And the team just
(04:26):
adapted. Everyone had to learnsomething about themselves kind
of in a group that maybewouldn't normally share, but you
get to know those people reallywell. And it spools you up and
gets you ready for essentiallyhitting your operational flight
and being able to deploy. Sothere's also a long flying phase
where we learned how to do allof the precision inserts with
(04:49):
folks rappelling or fast ropingout of your helicopter, which as
a brand new pilot was superchallenging because of the,
well, the Griffin is a fantasticaircraft, but it's a difficult
aircraft to fly the way that wefly it at four twenty seven.
And the tolerance is requiredwhen you're inserting humans to
either a tower or a spot on theground. So you combine that with
(05:12):
also having to do your CCA, yourclose combat attack course as
well mixed in there. It's a lotof flying, it's a lot of
learning, but you learn to relyon yourself and learn on your
lean on your team. So I thoughtit was an interesting course for
sure.
Bryan (05:25):
It sounds like the kind of thing that when you walk
away, you're a member of like awell, you are a member of a
select group and that'ssomething that kind of stays
with you for life.
Erin (05:34):
Yeah. I mean, it's different obviously than the
other communities. We're we'reaviation specialists. We're not
operators and we're notassaulters.
Bryan (05:40):
Mhmm.
Erin (05:40):
But we do have to be able to seamlessly sort of insert
ourselves into that constructand to make sure that the other
units trust us to be able to doour jobs to a super high level
of precision because it's theirlives on the line. If I miss my
target and they're not wherethey expect to be, I may have
cost them that mission. So wereally harp on our new students
(06:03):
and folks that pass selectionand are learning how to do these
jobs that the responsibility youhave is pretty massive at a
young phase in your career.
Bryan (06:13):
For sure.
Erin (06:13):
And that's one thing I noticed too, is post selection
immediately you're responsiblefor stuff. It's like, you might
be brand new to this unit, butif you're past our selection and
you've been put into anoperational flight, we have
confidence in you, maybe even asa junior captain to go talk on
behalf of four twenty seven in ajoint planning atmosphere. Over
to you, don't mess it up, doyour best kind of thing. You're
(06:36):
like, Oh, this is a bigresponsibility all of a sudden.
But yeah, the course prepared usreally well and a couple of
people were gone within a fewmonths to go do some stuff
overseas.
So it set us up pretty, prettywell.
Bryan (06:49):
Wow. Over time, you upgraded to special operations
aircraft commander. Did you findthat process difficult and what
was your greatest challenge?
Erin (06:59):
Yeah, that takes a couple years. Much like in any
community, you have to kind ofprogress through different
phases to get to aircraftcommander and a special
operations aircraft commanderhas a certain standard as well.
And essentially what that is, Imean, the qualifications have
changed somewhat, butessentially the responsibility
you are given with thatcertification is that CANSOFCOM
(07:23):
via forty seven CO feels asthough you've reached a level of
competence that they can giveyou an aircraft with our most
expensive operators andassaulters to train in the back
of an aircraft and insert themor do any of our mission sets
unsupervised as an aircraftcommander, you're responsible
for that crew. You're not aflight commander, so you are
managing your machine integratedinto part of a flight, make
(07:47):
multiple aircraft, but it's abig responsibility. I think
anyone becoming an aircraftcommander, whether it's in
special forces or not, you arenow responsible for a
multimillion dollar machine andlives of your crew and
potentially the execution ofyour mission as well.
It's just, I think it doesn'thappen easily in any community.
(08:07):
And I found at four twenty seventhat they definitely take their
time upgrading people because ofthe level of responsibility that
you're given as a SOA commander.So it took me, I wanna say three
years to upgrade, which is aboutaverage. Yeah, getting that
stamp in your logbook where thecommander of four twenty seven
(08:30):
is like, Yep, I'm more thancompetent and happy with your
skillset and your test. Here'sthe keys to be an aircraft
commander.
You are now allowed to go dolive inserts with troops
dangling below your helicopteror go do live fires as required
or that kind of thing. So it wasa big responsibility and kind of
like a big achievement for mebecause of how difficult each of
(08:52):
these courses had been over timeto be given that kind of
responsibility. And I take itseriously, much like everyone
else does. Like these are realpeople in your aircraft and it's
a real mission that you might beperforming on behalf of Canada.
And we hand out thosequalifications easily.
Bryan (09:11):
No. That's a big day to get that stamp in your logbook
for sure. What was your firstflight like as a SOA commander?
Erin (09:19):
It was very slow. I did not let the FO do a lot. That's
for sure. So the other personflying the aircraft is someone
that we get along really well. Iquite like both of them.
Actually, we switched the FOshalfway through the flight. And
I think I probably told them toslow down each like four
different times. I think it'sbecause the first time you sent
out an aircraft yourself, you'relike, oh my gosh, this is my
(09:42):
responsibility right now.
Bryan (09:44):
A 100.
Erin (09:45):
Yeah. So it was more slow paced than normal, but it
doesn't take too much. Itdoesn't take too long for you to
get a little bit more confidentin your aircraft commander
qualities. Like I wouldn't havebeen given that qualification if
I wasn't able to salvage theaircraft from a bad approach,
but my two FOs put up with mefor that flight. And I think at
the end, one of them definitelywent a little faster than I was
(10:06):
expecting on one of ourmaneuvers, but we made it work.
So it was a fun flight. It'sstill in my logbook with a lot
of exclamation marks next to itfor sure. And those two guys,
they definitely put up with mebeing a little bit more nervous
than normal.
Bryan (10:19):
I think that's pretty common when you're doing your
first couple sign outs. I thinkthat the crews typically they
know they're probably gonna dealwith a little bit more
micromanagement and that that'llwear off over time as you gain
confidence and trust. Right?
Erin (10:34):
Yeah. Absolutely. It was it was pretty funny, but a
little bit more confident now,which is good.
Bryan (10:39):
Yeah. So you deployed to Iraq in 2020 and 2021 flying the
CH one forty six Griffin andamassing over 300 combat hours
and earning the general campaignstar expedition medal with bar.
Did you want to deploy, and didthe experience change you at all
as a person?
Erin (10:57):
Yeah. I definitely wanted to deploy. That was a a big goal
of mine. So I was very eager, togo do those two deployments. It
was a great way to consolidateeverything we've been learning
and to see how all of theseskills since you joined the
military could be brought tobear and put to use in an
operational environment.
That's not to say that folksthat don't deploy or have
(11:18):
domestic operational jobs aren'tequally as competent, they
absolutely are. It's just adifferent environment. And for
our mandate in SOF, that's partof what we do is go other
places. And I felt like how itchanged me was give me a very
good perspective on just howquickly we can carry out our
(11:39):
planning and get out the door asa team and do some pretty
complicated stuff as well. So Ithought it was a great way to
consolidate all of your skills.
And I think the most importantthing I got out of that, aside
from learning a lot was comingback much more confident as a
pilot as well. So I hadn'tupgraded before I left on those
two tours. I upgraded after. Butwhat was nice is that you can be
(12:03):
very I don't wanna saycomfortable is the wrong word
because you're always kindakeeping an eye on things
happening overseas. But you getto know the machine really well,
the process, the flow, and whatyou don't have is a whole bunch
of secondary duties.
So you can go do your flying, doyour debriefs, get ready for the
next thing, go to the gym,whatever you need to do. In my
case, I thought it was a geniusidea to also be in school, so I
(12:23):
was writing a thesis. But youdidn't have to worry about all
of the stuff you normally worryabout when you're at home at the
unit. So you're able to reallyconcentrate on just becoming a
really good pilot in that typeof environment.
Bryan (12:36):
Yeah. I totally agree. I think nothing consolidates your
skills, grows your confidence,grows your comfort with the
aircraft, like deploying andflying every day, every other
day, getting, you know, hundredsof hours in a time period that
maybe normally it would take youlike a year to get that kind of
time and you get it within, youknow, half a year or something.
(12:56):
It's really, really good for youas a pilot.
Erin (12:58):
Yeah. And to see as well, like you get to you get very
used to the area around yourhome base. Right? I mean, I
would probably still not begreat at finding my way around
the ranges in Petawawa. I stillneed the still need a map for
that.
But I think what's what's greatis seeing different
environments, differentgeography, all that different
stuff gives you an appreciationfor what the machine can do in a
(13:21):
different environment as well.I'd never been somewhere where
it's that hot before. Mhmm. I'dnever had to deal with actual,
you know, dust storms andsandstorms and that kind of
thing and having to make sort ofweather calls sort of on the fly
to make sure things could work.And there was this huge
consolidation of skills when itcomes to dealing with different
weather, different topography,and dealing with mountains as
(13:43):
well in the Griffin, which whenit's hot is always an
interesting experience.
So yeah, I think it's important.And if anyone ever gives you the
opportunity to deploy,especially as a pilot, just take
it. Like, you will you'll youprobably won't regret it. It's
some of the best best learningyou can do, I think.
Bryan (14:03):
100%. It's it shapes your career.
Erin (14:06):
100%.
Bryan (14:08):
So you have a call sign sparkles. What's the story
behind that?
Erin (14:12):
Oh my gosh. Normally, have to buy someone a beer if you
want them to tell you, butthat's okay. So it wasn't
officially assigned, but it ithappened at in Fort Drum. I was
doing my close combat attackcourse where you learn how to
coordinate fires, peopleshooting out of your helicopter,
(14:35):
which is complicated because howwe used to do it was essentially
on paper. So we didn't have aniPad.
They wanted you to do your sortof figure out where you are,
where you're going, what yourfires pattern is gonna look
like, and all that coordinationon paper at night in the middle
of the winter in Fort Drum, NewYork. So I was already kind of
miserable and I'd been havingsome trouble with the geometry
(14:56):
and I had a 50 cal, I think onthe right. So one of our door
gunners, they're crew serveweapons. So they were on the
right hand side and then aregular light machine gun on the
left. And we were in a formationand we were given a fire mission
to go blow up some fake enemy orsomething like that by a bunch
of trainee JTACs from The USforces.
(15:17):
There was probably about 10people on the ground that were
learning how to call in fires.And so we were X number of
minutes away. We get the call, Itake the fire mission, come up
with my plan. I'm doing thisgeometry in my head. I'm like,
Oh man, it's actually working.
This is great. I brief my planon the radio. It's fantastic. We
kind of tip in to go towards ourtarget. When you are en route to
(15:38):
your target, you're nice andlow.
You want to maximize yoursurprise. And then at a given
distance, you'll kind of pop upboth helicopters spread out a
little bit and then put yourfires on target once you've
identified it. The JTACs, thefolks on the ground, were also a
distance away from the target,but you can do something called
sparkle or sparkling, andthey'll put a laser on the
(16:01):
target so it's easier for you toidentify it. So we were bumped
up and I looked at my 01:00 forlike 500 meters and I actually
saw the target, which had been aproblem all night. And I got so
excited that rather than saywhat I was supposed to say,
which was to this call sign,know, such and such a flight,
(16:21):
sparkle on.
That's all I had to say. And hewould have sparkled the target
and I would have told my doorgunner to shoot it. I squeaked
over the radio that everybodywas listening to, including the
CO at that time, because he'dcome down to visit this whole
giant exercise. And rather thansay all cool, calm, and
collected what I was supposed tosay on the radio, I literally
yelled, Sparkles, please. Andall of a sudden there is 10
(16:44):
lasers on this target.
And my door gunner, I think shejust was like, oh, there's 10
lasers. Was gonna start shootingstuff. And I'm like, oh my gosh,
I didn't actually give you thecommand to fire, cease fire. And
then my instructor kind oflooked over. This is nighttime,
so I can just see his eyes andhis mustache and the glow of the
NBGs.
And he's just sort of shakinghis head. And I'm like, Oh, I
(17:05):
think I just failed my flight.And we get back and these giant
super muscular JTACs kind ofstarted chanting sparkles, which
was entertaining as I'm tryingto eat my dinner. So for a while
I was known as Sparkles and Irelayed this story to folks at
NASA because no one called methat really back home. And
(17:25):
they're like, That is amazing.
We're going to call youSparkles. That's the most
ridiculous thing we've everheard. And these are all, like,
marine astronauts or whatever,so they know what fires are
supposed to sound like on theradio, and it's not sparkles,
please. So that's where thatthat's where that came from is
another one of my gaffes, butthat's okay.
Bryan (17:43):
Oh, man. No. That's awesome. That's a great story.
Erin (17:46):
Yeah.
Bryan (17:48):
Alright. So while you were upgrading, you served as a
flight safety officer, standardsand training flight operations
officer, and created the spaceliaison officer position at four
two seven squadron whilecompleting a master's in space
science. How did you jugglethese diverse responsibilities,
and what did you learn aboutyourself?
Erin (18:06):
I don't know. Man, I think I've blacked out that entire
period of my life. So the flightoffice flight safety officer job
was super interesting. I endedup doing that overseas on my
last tour because weunfortunately couldn't send one
of our pilots who were supposedto, and we found out we were
going to have this gap. So Iquickly did that course and
ended up really enjoying it.
(18:28):
So being a flight safety officeroverseas is a secondary duty. It
ends up being relatively busy.There's usually little things
going on, so you learn a lotdoing that and integrating into
the larger task force as well.And then I came home and I would
on occasion cover off the flightunit flight safety officer, but
he went away. Or I act as aflight safety officer on the
(18:49):
road for my flight when we weredoing training elsewhere.
So it's a secondary duty, butsometimes if something happens,
it ends up being quite busy. ButI enjoy the investigation part
and trying to figure out whathappened and making sure that
you are doing your part andmaking sure that your teammates
are able to work in a safeenvironment. Like, I'm really
bought into the flight safetymantra, which is it's as it's
(19:13):
not about punishing people. It'sabout finding the solution to
make sure we don't do it again.So I'm I'm really into that
because it helps keep your teamsafe, and everyone can learn
from those mistakes, right?
Bryan (19:22):
A 100%.
Erin (19:23):
And you talk to, yeah, you talk to any pilot, we've all
made a mistake. It's just amatter of time.
Bryan (19:28):
Oh yeah.
Erin (19:28):
And so the best thing we can do is capture that and be
totally upfront about it andjust report it so everyone else
can learn too. So I've had myown couple of flight safeties
here and there. I think everyonehas, there are just things that
happen. Yeah, and then thestandards and training
operations officer job, that's aspecific flight at 04:27 that's
(19:51):
responsible not only for ourselection course, the special
operations tactical aviatorscourse, but also all of these
standards across the squadron aswell. So as the operations
officer, you're managing all ofthat along with your schedule
and helping get SOTAC ready andall of the internal training we
have to do at 04:27 as well.
So whether it's more CCA orgoing out to work with boats or
(20:13):
doing an exercise that involvesour standards pilots and flight
engineers. It was incrediblybusy. And I wasn't expecting to
get this job after my last tour,but I was very fortunate that I
had some good mentors, some goodoperations officers I was able
to learn from. And I had afantastic group of people to
work with. My flight commander,she was amazing as were all of
(20:37):
the senior pilots that work instandards and training.
So I had very good support andmy ops warrant as well. My ops
warrant probably could have donethis job on his own. I don't
know if he actually needed me,but he was a fantastic mentor.
So we worked really welltogether to pull off some very
complex, but very necessarytraining. And I think in a
normal environment, given thelevel and complexity of
(21:00):
operations that we supported inorder to train, not just our own
staff, but mixed in with therest of the command, we probably
should have had a cell of aboutsix people, but it was normally
just me and my ops weren't.
So it was definitely busy.Again, not sure why I chose to
try and do a master's degree atthe same time, write a thesis.
(21:20):
But my roommate at the time wasalso super supportive. If he saw
me kind of freaking out at somethesis or course that wasn't
working, he'd quietly leave andlike come back with Starbucks
and chips. So I had fantasticsupport throughout those years,
but I was also given I wasn'ttold to not do my master's
(21:42):
degree.
They were very supportive ofthat as well. I didn't take any
time off for it, but
Bryan (21:45):
there
Erin (21:46):
was definitely times when my deputy officer commanding or
my flight commander were like,We're gonna write a leave pass
for you, so you go take a breakbecause you're working a lot. So
it was a good team. And I thinkthat's honestly how I was able
to manage all of those differentthings at once, that and an
excessive amount of caffeine.But again, it was about relying
(22:09):
on the team and also the missionwas really important to me too,
making sure that the people thatwere training had relevant
training in the right amount oftime to make sure that they were
ready for their next careerstep. So I think being
passionate about the missionmade that job easier, as busy as
it was with the other thingsthat I was doing.
Bryan (22:29):
Yeah, for sure. It's always easier to kind of bury
yourself into your work if it'ssomething you're passionate
about.
Erin (22:34):
Yep.
Bryan (22:37):
So we've been talking a lot about mentorship. If you're
going to pay it forward andprovide some mentorship to young
women who may be listening, whatadvice would you give them if
they are looking at pursuingdifficult or male dominated
careers like you have done?
Erin (22:51):
I would say just to just to go for it. And in fact, I
think that advice is applicableto to men and women.
Bryan (22:59):
For sure.
Erin (23:00):
There's a lot of pressure in society to do certain things
a certain way and to maybe notalways push yourself to a point
of failure. A lot of people liketo know everything before they
try stuff. But honestly, just tobe open and to try, even though
you might not be successful,there's no harm in trying. Just
(23:22):
don't have any regrets. And youmight meet people along the way
that are gonna tell you you'renot capable or you shouldn't
try, or that's really weird,whatever.
If you are interested, justtrust yourself that you probably
have the skills or you'll learnthe skills to make it through.
Just honestly, just give it ashot and ask questions along the
way and be open to what happens.If it doesn't always go right,
(23:46):
it doesn't mean that it's thewrong decision for you. You just
might have to rejig about howyou're going to approach that
problem. But these jobs are foreverybody, not just one type of
person.
In fact, I think to besuccessful and to win the wars
of the future, we're going tohave to have people that can
think around abstract problemsand we're going to need people
(24:07):
that are not exactly the same.We have to have people with
different backgrounds in orderto combat those abstract
threats. So everyone hassomething to offer, and I'd love
to see more people doing thesetrades and giving these hard
things a try. You learn a lotabout yourself and you get to do
some rad stuff along the waywhile serving your country. I
(24:28):
think it's fantastic.
Bryan (24:29):
That's awesome. And I I totally agree. That advice is
really good for anybody who'slistening, whether they are a
man or a woman or I think thatthat applies to everybody. So,
Erin, as we mentioned, yourfirst experience working in the
space field was when you createdthe space liaison officer
position at four two sevensquadron. How did it come about
that you created this positionand what exactly did it entail?
Erin (24:52):
Yeah. I was actually partly through my selection
course at four two seven, and wewere just learning about
planning and that kind of stuff.And I obviously before that had
done TAFOS, the tactical firstofficers course down at, or over
I should suppose, at four zerothree Squadron Engage Town. And
I'd noticed in that course thatwe weren't involving a lot of
(25:15):
chitchat about potential denialsituations when it came to GPS.
And I think just given myinterest in all of things to do
with space, that I was curiousif that information existed or
was consolidated somewhere.
So I poked around and asked somefolks. At the time in the Air
Force, DG Space was responsiblefor that type of information,
(25:40):
but very much at the stratlevel. So honestly just fired a
couple emails, probablyshouldn't have, but directly to
lieutenant colonels that wereworking at CANSPAC. And one of
them, he's probably a colonelnow, but Colonel Lacass emailed
me back. He's like, I like youridea of bringing this
information down to the tacticallevel.
We've been trying to find waysto kind of get ourselves into
(26:02):
these various planning rooms,but it is difficult. We all know
that the military is a littlebit siloed. If you don't, you
don't know what you don't know.And I'd been one of those nerds
that was like, I'm gonna take abunch of online courses too,
like the basic space operationscourse and the advanced space
operations course because I haveso much time. And so kind of
combining that and just noticinggaps here and there, I'm like, I
(26:25):
think we can address some ofthis.
So started having someinteresting conversations with
the folks over at space and theywere standing up their own
division at the time. And so itwas a really fortuitous timing,
I think, with the RCF kind ofreleasing their white paper and
deciding that, you know what,we're really gonna focus on
space. This is obviously our newoperating environment, and we
(26:46):
can't do our jobs across theCAF, whether you're a pilot or
driving boats or you're on a gunline. Everyone requires the
safe, not safe necessarily, butaccess to space at the very
least to do our jobs or at leastto do our jobs more easily. So I
wrote a briefing note and one ofthe things I learned at four
(27:08):
twenty seven, even though I wasincredibly junior there, still
in my course, under evaluationas to whether or not they'd keep
me.
I think I wrote that briefingnote in a tent actually after
hours. And I submitted it viachain that I had. And the CEO's
like, I think this is a goodidea. He's like, Don't embarrass
(27:30):
me, but I want you to continuewith this idea. I think this has
some legs.
So started working with our intcell as well, and it kind of
grew from there. And to behonest, I think a lot of places
were doing that at the sametime. I'm sure The US forces
were trying to figure out waysto implement more space
mindedness in their tacticallevel planning. And that's
(27:52):
really all it was, was justtrying to collapse that
information that kind of getsstuck at a high level sometimes
and just bring it down to thewarfighter level. And so it was
difficult just because noteveryone's busy and we have a
certain way of doing things.
So when you suddenly say like,Hey, we're gonna introduce a new
planning paradigm here. Therewasn't resistance necessarily. I
(28:13):
think it was more or less justunderstanding why it was so
relevant. And obviously I couldgo on about it all day and
there's more to it than justGPS, but critical, it is
absolutely critical to allwarfighters across any element,
especially these days that wehave that access to space and we
understand the implications ofnot having it and being prepared
to fight a battle when thataccess to various tools is
(28:37):
either denied or degraded. Andhow can we do that to a
potential enemy as well?
So it's just a different way ofthinking. It's another tool. I
hate this term, but it's anothertool in the toolbox for people.
And I think someone eventuallywould have done that anyway.
It's just I happened to be thatnerd that had no life apparently
and thought that writing abriefing note was a good idea.
(28:58):
But I also appreciate that. It'sone thing I noticed at four
twenty seven is we are quitelateral. And if you have an idea
and you can substantiate it,they'll probably let you run
with it. And so it's been goingfor a while. Someone else took
over for me when I was postedout of there and they've grown
it into something even biggerand they have involved more EW
stuff and it's fantastic.
Bryan (29:18):
Mhmm.
Erin (29:19):
But it's an important capacity and capability I think
that every tactical unit has tostart doing. We all have to be
more space literate because weit's a lot more difficult to do
our jobs when you don't haveaccess to
Bryan (29:30):
it. Yeah. Absolutely. And you mentioned EW there, that's
electronic warfare. And it'sinteresting.
I so one of my old COs who isnow retired was Mike Adamson,
who was the first commander ofthree Canadian Space Division.
And he's an amazing guy, one ofthe best mentors I ever had. And
at one point we had talked andand I may still do this with
(29:52):
eventually with whichever personis in command of the Canadian
Space Division at the time. Butwe had talked about doing an
interview. It didn't end uplining up.
But as part of that preinterview, we spoke and he was
telling me a little bit aboutbasically just how dependent
everyday life is. Like forgetabout even combat. Everyday life
is dependent on space access andsafe access to space. You you
(30:16):
then add a layer of of combat tothat, and it's it's just
absolutely critical like youwere saying.
Erin (30:22):
Yeah. Mister Adamson was also my first division commander
as well.
Intro/Outro (30:27):
He was the one who was in
Erin (30:28):
place when he posted me down here to NASA. Fantastic
person to work for. Mhmm. Andit's brigadier general Chris
Horner now. But he's similarlyas focused on ensuring that
Canadians just by and large haveaccess to space.
It's like commerce shuts down,your ability to navigate your
aircraft in the civilian contextshuts down if we don't have
access to these tools. They'vebecome completely integrated
(30:50):
into our lives, like you said.So that division essentially
exists to make sure that anythreats that exist to Canada in
the space domain are identifiedbecause it is absolutely
essential for our society andour economy that we are able to
maintain that access to space.I'm sure the space div will be
so happy to have such a plugabout this, but that division,
(31:13):
seven wing space, and the twosquadrons that comprise that
wing are very busyoperationalizing themselves to
make sure we're closing anygaps. And they're always looking
for people too.
So if people are interested inspace, there's always a
crossover with piloting,absolutely, but it's an option
for people too. And it's been areally big pleasure learning how
(31:33):
they've integrated themselvesand and what it is they're doing
to operationalize to make surethat we're meeting those new
threats.
Bryan (31:39):
Mhmm. There's been a bit of a theme of interest in space.
We've talked about this beforewith you taking on geology. Was
the position with NASA somethingyou had long had in mind, or was
it more of an opportunity thatcame up?
Erin (31:52):
So that is an interesting question. The position actually
didn't exist until a coupleyears ago. At NASA, there's
always been sorry, I should sayvery specifically at the Johnson
Space Center where I work downhere in Houston. For a long time
within the astronaut office,there's been a military liaison
office. And they've brought invarious US service members over
(32:15):
the years to learn how to beCAPCOMs and do other work around
the office that matches theirskill sets.
There's a lot of engineering andtest flying and that kind of
stuff, report writing and thatkind of thing that the
astronauts need help with. So ifyou have a background in
engineering or space sciences,it's a pretty awesome place to
end up for a few years. But ourtwo RCF colonels that are
(32:38):
astronauts as well, Josh Kutrickand Jeremy Hansen, were kind of
like, Hey, there's a lot of workin this office, like technical
engineering work that we couldprobably use some expertise on
or just an extra body that mightbe able to work on some of this
stuff. Maybe we should approachthe CSA, the Canadian Space
Agency, and our home division,3DIV, to see if we wanna see if
(33:00):
there's a way to bring down aCanadian. So they sat down and
created the position, sort ofworking with the Canadian Space
Agency as well.
And they put out a coursesolicitation. It's not a course
solicitation, but a solicitationmessage for the position. And I
remember seeing it and 15different people emailed me
about it. And I'm like, I'm notgonna get that position. I don't
even think I'm gonna botherapplying.
(33:21):
They're gonna give it to sometest pilot or whatever. And I
was super busy doing an out ofcountry training exercise with
my flight and just dealing withall the regular things that OpsO
deals with when you're away fromyour home unit. And again, that
same mentor, she was like, Erin,I really want you to apply for
this job. I think you willregret it if you don't try and
(33:43):
apply for this job. I'm like, Idon't have time, ma'am.
Like, I'm busy trying to runyour unit right now and get all
your candidates through thiscourse. And she's like, listen,
I'll fix the schedule. Like, Iwill manage a portion of your
ops duties. Like, just go gosubmit your application for
this. And so I did and didn'tthink I'd get it.
And a little while later heardback that they wanted to bring
(34:06):
me in for an interview. And thatinterview ended up being with
some representatives from thedivision with Jeremy Hansen
himself, a person who ended upbeing my current boss, so a
branch chief from the crewoffice, James Kelly, who's a
retired astronaut, and a fewother folks, I think from HQ and
Carling. And again, I did theinterview. It went really well.
(34:28):
I did my best to prepare againby overreacting to how much
stuff I should probably learnabout reading white papers and
learning all about what the CSAis up to these days and what
Capcoms do.
And again, I'm like, I'm notgonna get it. I'm sure they're
gonna hire a test pilot. And Igot a call later to my ops
office. I was back in Canada andmy warrant kinda looked at me.
(34:49):
He's like, is that an astronauton the phone?
And Jeremy had called the officeand said, hey, you did really
well in an interview. We thinkyou've got the best personality
that's gonna fit down here forthis job that's got like so many
different things going on. Yourbackground is perfect for the
kinds of things we want you todo down here. Would you like to
come work with me at NASA? AndI'm pretty sure I swore at him
(35:10):
in the phone.
Like, I didn't say heck yes. Isaid something else, but I'm
like, absolutely. When do youwant me to show up? And like
within three months, I was downin Houston. So it's not
something that I thought I'dever be able to do.
I've always been interested inspace, but until I started
getting involved a little bitmore in the military side, I
didn't really know that therewas a way to get down to NASA
other than being an astronaut.And this job has definitely
(35:32):
provided that experience for me.So I get to do a lot of the same
training that they've done and Imanage their schedules and their
training as an operationsofficer. So I get to do a lot of
the same stuff except go tospace. But yeah, it just
happened to be a position thatshowed up at exactly the right
time.
I had the right education, theright experience, the right
(35:55):
operational background, and itall kind of just came together.
And every single thing I've donethroughout my life from geology
to diving to flying tooperations, like maybe the
exception of the art gallery,all of it has come together in
this job. So it's been prettycool.
Bryan (36:09):
That seems to be another recurring theme that we've
talked we we kind of mentionedin the first episode that
anything is possible. Anotherrecurring theme within your
career just seems to be that allthese things just come together.
All these experiences contributeto the whole, and you seem to be
able to put them to use in otherenvironments.
Erin (36:26):
And, yeah, NASA well, I found that CanSoftcom was also
very good at this. If you have aparticular skill set or a
competency, they'll find a wayto leverage it. And then NASA's
very much the same way. I wassupposed to go down there, very
do my CAPCOM training, whichtakes about a year. It's very
engineering heavy.
You take a bunch of classes andyou sit console and work as a
(36:48):
CAPCOM once you've finished yourqualification about once a week.
And then the rest of the time, Ithink the plan was to offer a
little bit of administrativeassistance here and there to the
Canadian Astronaut Corps. Andthen that got blown up into, Oh
my gosh, Erin used to be anoperations officer, and she's a
helicopter pilot, and she's gota background in geology. We have
(37:09):
a hole in the operations office.We need an OPSO.
Johnny Kim is probably gonna getassigned. He's the medical
doctor, Navy SEAL astronaut guy.Yeah. Yeah. No big deal.
I'll just take over his job,guys. What?
Bryan (37:21):
Yeah. He's pretty famous.
Erin (37:23):
He's he's he's an amazing guy. We didn't have much of a
handover, but we're alsostarting to use helicopters a
lot more in astronaut trainingas well. And they said, Listen,
you're the only currentqualified helicopter pilot that
we have available. How do youfeel about helping us with this
acquisition program anddesigning us a training plan
that matches the skills that theastronauts will need to kind of
(37:45):
get repetitions with when theyland on the moon. It's not a
perfect analog, but some of thatthinking in the vertical domain
and dealing with visualillusions and that kind of
stuff.
I'm like, yeah, sure, guys. Ican do that. And same with the
geology is learning about lunargeology and how it applies to
the ops that we're trying to dodown there and make sure that
the training that we're givingour astronauts makes sense. So
(38:06):
all of these things have cometogether in this job. And
despite, you know, I don't havea background, like a
professional background indesigning training syllabuses
and managing astronaut training,but all of the stuff I've done
in the CAF has inadvertentlyvery much prepared me for this
job.
And it's also very extremelyrare that I think that NASA,
(38:28):
after only knowing you for alittle while, would say, yes,
let's give you a deputy branchchief job normally held by a
colonel astronaut because you'vebeen vetted and vouched for by
two Canadians that we reallyrespect. And we're confident
that if they've assessed yourbackground as appropriate for
this, we trust that the trainingthey've had from the air force
as well has prepared them to beastronauts. We think you can do
(38:50):
this operations job and be adeputy branch chief. So it's a
huge responsibility. It's veryhumbling, I'll say that much.
And it's also a lot of work, butit is absolutely amazing to be
leveraged to the extent of yourcapacity with all of the skills
that you have. It's kind of aneat position to be in. You get
to use everything you've everlearned.
Bryan (39:11):
Yeah. No kidding.
Erin (39:13):
Mhmm.
Bryan (39:14):
So you mentioned that you had about three months from that
phone call with Jeremy Hansen toyour posting starting in
Houston, which must have beenhectic. What were the first few
months like after moving there,and what were there any initial
challenges?
Erin (39:26):
You know what? I think the biggest challenge was they told
me about the weather, but no onetold me about the flying
cockroaches. Right? That was athing that no one told me was a
thing here. Like giant tunafish.
The what? Flying cockroaches,man. Oh, no. It's insane. I'm
joking.
And alligators. No. The biggestchallenge probably was just like
(39:47):
the little administrative stuffwhile you're trying to get going
in a new country. The move wentreally well, no complaints
there. I handed over all myduties.
That was a bit of a stressor.Managed to get my last I did my
instrument rating exam andanother APC just so I was
current when I arrived. Wedidn't know necessarily what
kind of qualifications I neededto keep.
Bryan (40:07):
And for the listeners, an APC is an annual proficiency
check. It's basically youryearly flight test.
Erin (40:13):
But it's just a little stuff like getting a driver's
license and trying to figure outhow the Internet works down here
with all the different peopleand what rate I should choose
for power billing and that kindof thing. But the Canadians that
are already down here were superhelpful. They had a bunch of
tips and tricks about how tomake that work. And Josh,
Jeremy, and Jenny, Jenny Gibbonsis our civilian Canadian
(40:37):
astronaut who's also down herefull time. And we have a bunch
of full time CSA, Canadian SpaceAgency liaison engineers.
They were all very excited tohave another Canadian. So they
were also super helpful. So Iwasn't in need of a lot of like,
extra assistance because theywere all down here ready to
help. So Mhmm. I think honestly,the worst thing was getting used
to the humidity down here in theAugust.
(40:59):
That was something else.
Bryan (41:00):
Oh, I can only imagine. We were chatting about the
weather just before theinterview today. And what you
described for me was alreadylike, it's the middle of winter
and that's like pretty hot, theweather you guys have right now.
Like, that's about the limit ofmy comfort zone.
Erin (41:16):
I can't imagine in summer. August is wild. It was like 40 I
at one point, it was 46 degrees,and I'm like, I can't do this.
Bryan (41:24):
Wow. That's like reminds me of being in Kuwait, except
there's also humidity.
Erin (41:29):
Yeah. It's the humidity that's a killer for sure.
Bryan (41:31):
Yeah. So what was your first impression of NASA when
you got there?
Erin (41:38):
In a lot of ways, it actually reminded me a little
bit of SOF in that everyone whois there from your maintenance
engineers that take care of thebuildings for you to the
astronauts and everybody inbetween wants to be working
there. So it's just everyone'sexcited about it and everyone's
also a 100% bought into theirmission as well. Regardless of
(42:00):
what portion of the missionthey're working on, you have
people who are working on theInternational Space Station
mission, or you've got peopleworking on exploration. So going
back to the moon, working onthat mission, people are
dedicated and they're veryexcited about going to work
every day. And it's incrediblebecause it's such a big facility
down here that so many people,thousands of people are excited
(42:23):
to be here every day to makesure that we're getting folks
back and forth to station andcompleting science and then
getting people ready to go tothe moon and getting all of that
technology ready.
So I think that was the firstthing that struck me was was
just how cool it was, but alsohow humble and down to earth
everybody is. That was kindacool.
Bryan (42:42):
Yeah. Which is interesting that you mentioned
the parallels between there andthe soft world because that
that's something that alwaysseems to be a common factor when
you meet someone who's worked insoft or a Sartech, for example.
They just seem to be these,like, humble, quiet
professionals.
Erin (43:00):
Yeah. Absolutely. And similarly with the astronauts,
like, you bump into them hereand there. Like, oh, hey. How
are you doing?
I'm like, I'm talking to someonewho's been to space three times.
This is pretty cool, but we'retalking about how humid it is
outside. So it's a really neatplace to work for that. And
what's nice is you areimmediately accepted as a peer
(43:20):
and as an equal. And it's beenassessed that you have something
to offer and we're happy to haveyou here, so let's get to work.
And that was kind of noticed onSomething I noticed on day one
of something that we callSpaceflight Academy. Everyone
who's brought in to potentiallywork in mission control ends up
doing about two and a half orthree months of Spaceflight
(43:44):
Academy, which is like welcometo NASA in an onboarding of how
this place works, how the flightoperations directorate works,
which is responsible for all ofthe engineering disciplines that
keep station running. And it'ssort of how we train everybody
to work in those disciplines.And pretty much day one, the
other thing I noticed too, asidefrom people being super humble,
(44:05):
is how much they emphasize thatyou have to be ready to ask
questions if you don'tunderstand because mistakes here
can potentially cost lives. Andone of the first things we
talked about were the errorsthat led to the accidents that
we've had that were serious andwe lost lives.
So they put that on, they weartheir heart in a sleeve and they
understand that you are here todo a job, you're gonna be
(44:27):
responsible for a system.Potentially you will be making
calls in the mission controlroom that are life or death
sometimes. So let's get ready todo that kind of work and be
super professional. And it'sinteresting seeing these like
20, 21 year old engineers justlike totally take that
environment and they're learninghow to be operational for the
first time. So it's interestinghow they can kind of get you
(44:49):
into that mode within aboutthree months with how they do
their initial training here.
Bryan (44:54):
Man, that sounds amazing.
Erin (44:56):
So
Bryan (44:58):
you had talked a little bit about what the job at NASA
initially consisted of, but itquickly exploded into something
way more complex, impactful, andinvolved than you initially
expected. At this point, youhave three official job titles.
NASA astronaut office deputybranch chief for crew
operations, Canadian astronautcoordination officer, and
International Space Stationcapsule communicator or ISS
(45:21):
CAPCOM. Let's talk about yourrole as Canadian astronaut
coordination officer first. Youwere the first ever Canadian
astronaut coordination officer.
What does this role entail?
Erin (45:30):
Yeah. So that was the working title for the first go
at that job that we had. And theastronauts don't really need a
lot of administrative support.So that jobs more or less become
having an extra Canadian officerdown here and finding ways to
help the CSA and the astronautskind of link back to Canada in
(45:51):
different ways and maybe pick upsome of the projects we've been
working on that we just didn'thave the astronauts may not have
had enough time to really focuson. Probably the best example of
trying to work those linkagesbetween someone here, human
spaceflight and the RCAF is thework we've been doing in the SAR
community on the East Coast tomake sure that our SAR techs get
(46:12):
the same training that the USAir Force DET three human
spaceflight support people get.
And that's what happens in theevent of an abort and how you
get those astronauts out of acapsule. So now because there
was someone here who had time, alittle bit of time to kind of
reach back and knew some folksat JRCC, the Joint Rescue
Coordination Center, to try andget those relationships reforged
(46:34):
and find opportunities. Sothat's been a big thing is like,
if there is a gap, if I can seeit, I'll try and get it closed.
And that's just by way of thefact you have I mean, I've been
in for fifteen years. I guessyou have a a senior salty
captain that can kinda reachback into the air force and say,
hey.
I think there's some there's amutual benefit here. How can we
exploit that? The astronauts andthe Canadians are no different.
(46:57):
They're super busy and theydon't necessarily have time to
try and find those gaps or closethem. And they've also been out
of regular air force stuff forquite some time too.
And I had just come out of anoperational unit. So helping
GRCC get more information thathelps them make better
operational calls for theirstaff, that was really important
to me because it helps us buydown risk, not just for the
(47:19):
astronauts, but for the CERTXtoo. Getting people out of a
capsule or helping them getthemselves out of a capsule is
complicated. So I want them tohave the tools and the training
that they need to do thatsafely. So getting that bridge
built was really important.
And that was something that hadbeen languishing for a little
bit simply because of time andturnover. But having someone
here that can pick it up ishelpful. And similarly, just
(47:41):
because of gaps, unintentional,but gaps in international
agreements, there's some coursesthat international astronauts
can't participate in. So one ofthose courses is the helicopter
course that we do for most ofour NASA astronauts. So Jenny
Gibbons, she's a doctor in Ithink physics, but she is also a
commercial pilot, but she's nota military pilot.
(48:04):
So I was really interested intrying to get her the same type
of military helicopter trainingthat our NASA astronauts do. But
I thought one of the best wayswe can do that is probably going
to Portage. Like our bestinstructors, well, lots of our
really good instructors work atthree CFFTS. So I approached
honestly the fifteen wingcommander and said, Is this
something you think you can do?Here's the reasons why can we
(48:27):
build a similar course for Jennyin Portage because that is a
center of excellence forhelicopter training, for primary
helicopter training.
And it would be a perfectsolution and allow her to
continue with more advancedtraining that we do out here
that is available tointernational partner
astronauts. So that CACOposition has kind of just become
another ops job with a biggerfocus on how we can find
(48:51):
linkages back to the RCF. Andyou guys, I guess I'm part of
you guys as well. The RCF isreally well respected down here
for, you know, for what Jeremyand Josh have received in terms
of their training and leadershiptraining. So it's not unusual
that NASA would be more thancomfortable to have Canada more
deeply involved in some of thattraining.
(49:12):
So the job went fromadministration to essentially a
more Canadian focused ops job.And that's kind of how I see it
is just a way to build bridgesbecause there are a lot of
things that Canada brings to thetable. It's just a matter of
having a person, like a body,able to devote time to to make
that known. That makes sense.
Bryan (49:30):
Yeah. Wow. So that job has really changed from kind of
what it was initially supposedto be to what it has evolved
into.
Erin (49:37):
Yeah. That's also my problem too because I I just
can't leave things alone. So itdefinitely it definitely
probably took on more than wasrequired, but it's hard for me
to see a gap in capability thatI know could be filled with a
little bit of effort. And peoplein Canada have been very
receptive as well. Like I'msuper appreciative of how much
effort GRCC with their alreadyincredibly busy mandate on the
(50:02):
East Coast and the West Coastshortly too, have been devoting
just a little bit of extra timeto the space file here.
And I think it's good extrasituational awareness for them
so that everyone's a little bitsafer. I don't anticipate an
abort. They're super rare. It'snot a thing that happens very
often, but there is always thatpotential. And you wanna arm
(50:25):
people with as much informationas possible if that were to
happen.
I don't want them if there's away to close that gap, I'm gonna
close it. And that's kind ofwhat this job has become.
Bryan (50:33):
Yeah, for sure. Okay, Aaron, that's gonna wrap up part
two of our chat for today. Ireally, really enjoyed hearing
about your time in four twoseven Squadron as well as the
beginning of your time down inHouston. And I'm really looking
forward to finishing up our chatnext time and hearing about all
the work you're doing with theCanadian Space Agency and NASA.
So thank you very much.
Erin (50:52):
Thank you.
Bryan (50:53):
Alright. That wraps up part two of our chat with
captain Erin Edwards, thecurrent jack of all trades
working for the Canadian SpaceAgency down in Houston. For our
next episode, we'll bereconnecting with Erin for the
final part of our discussion andtalking all about her work with
the Canadian Space Agency andNASA. Do you have any questions
or comments about anythingyou've heard in this show? Would
you or someone you know make agreat guest, or do you have a
(51:15):
great idea for a show?
You can reach out to us at thepilotprojectpodcast@Gmail.com or
on all social media at at podpilot project. And be sure to
check out that social media forlots of great videos of our RCAF
aircraft. As always, we'd liketo thank you for tuning in and
ask for your help with the bigthree. That's like and follow us
on social media, share with yourfriends, and follow and rate us
(51:36):
five stars wherever you get yourpodcasts. That's all for now.
Thanks for listening. Keep theblue side up. See you.
Intro/Outro (51:45):
Engineer, shut down all four. Shutting down all four
engines.
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