What’s it like to go from flying helicopters in the Royal Canadian Air Force to becoming the voice in the headset for astronauts aboard the International Space Station? How do you transition from military aviation to serving as Deputy Branch Chief Operations Officer and CAPCOM at NASA?
In this episode, we sit down with Captain Erin Edwards — a Special Operations Aircraft Commander, Elsie MacGill Award recipient, and current CAPCOM working with NASA and the Canadian Space Agency.
She shares her journey from commanding aircraft in Canada’s elite 427 Squadron to her first unforgettable call to the ISS. If you've ever wondered what it takes to lead under pressure — whether in the cockpit or mission control — this episode is for you.
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Intro/Outro (00:30):
Fuel and ignition switches. On. RPM switches. Set.
PD switches.
Normal. Doors and hatches.Closed. Lay down. Stroblade.
On. Research check-in. Completewith your left. Engineer. Start
number two.
Starting to. Wing three one zeroten, pilot project podcast.
(00:50):
Clear takeoff Runway 31 left.
Bryan (00:58):
Alright. We're ready for departure here at the pilot
project podcast, the best sourcefor stories and advice from RCAF
and mission aviation pilotsbrought to you by Skies
Magazine. I'm your host, BrianMorrison. With me today is
captain Aaron Edwards, an RCAFpilot who is a Canadian capsule
communicator or CAPCOM currentlyworking with NASA. Erin, welcome
back to the show and thanks onceagain for being here.
Erin (01:18):
Thank you. Happy to be here.
Bryan (01:20):
Listeners can check out part one to hear all about
Erin's experiences within theflight training program of the
RCAF. And part two focuses onher time in four two seven
special operations aviationsquadron, as well as the
beginning of her time workingwith the Canadian Space Agency
and NASA. Now for the final partof our chat, we will be talking
all about her time down inHouston. So you are now also the
(01:42):
astronaut office deputy branchchief for crew operations or
operations officer, and it's thefirst time a non astronaut has
held this position. Can youdescribe the various aspects of
this job?
Erin (01:52):
Yeah. So if you think of your busiest, squadron level
opso, that's essentially what myjob is. So every unassigned
astronaut belongs to the crewops office. At a certain point,
we'll hand them over to adifferent cell that plans their
mission trainings, missionspecific training. But when
(02:14):
they're back here just in theirregular flow waiting to be
assigned again, or they're brandnew astronauts that need to go
through training, they allbelong to the ops office.
And you'd think for 50 some oddpeople plus new astronauts like
we're getting this year, whichwill be maybe twelve, fourteen,
16, I'm actually not sure yet.Wow. You'd think we'd have a lot
of staff. We don't have a lot ofstaff. It's me, my branch chief,
(02:40):
and two and a half schedulers,one of our folks is part time.
And between us, we manage a lotof different things, but it
kinda feels like you are in awing ops kind of scenario. Like
my boss is the wing commander,you might kind of call him,
deals with all of the up andout, the strat level stuff, the
funding, the budgets, a littlebit of timing of our larger
(03:00):
training objectives, and theneverything else he kind of
pushes down to me. So I'llmanage the bigger pieces of that
planning. So when we're going todo it, the readiness reviews,
who's going to go on thetraining, whether or not that
training makes sense. Are therechanges I can make to it to make
sure it's more relevant?
And then from there, it goesdown to my schedulers to make
sure that I have bodies thatmatch the requirement to go to
(03:23):
that course. So those are kindof like the big things that we
manage, the variousexpeditionary courses that we
send astronauts on, but there'salso all the day to day planning
that we have to manage as wellbecause astronauts, whether
you're a pilot or you're rearseat qualified in the T-thirty
eight Talon, I think it's aNovember model here, there's
flying requirements we have todo. So we schedule them for
(03:44):
that. They have to go do theirspacesuit diving essentially in
the Neutral Buoyancy Lab, one ofthe biggest pools in the world
where they have a mock up of theexterior station. They have to
maintain their qualification ordo a qualification in that as
well.
And there's just hundreds ofother discrete tasks that
they're required to dothroughout the year and maintain
currencies and qualificationson. So it's managing a giant
(04:05):
puzzle throughout most of theyear. And then there's always
the odd curve ball that comes upas well. It wouldn't be ops
without fires to put out. Andpart of my responsibility too is
part of that CAPCOM job, thecapsule communicator job is
there's a whole branch ofengineer CAPCOMs.
We're not they're not allastronauts, and they're not all
just officers like me. We have alot of people that are dual
(04:28):
trained flight controllers thatcome from engineering trades
that are also then cross trainedas CAPCOMs and managing that
roster of people and theirqualifications as well. So it's
a big job, but it honestly justfeels like like a wing ops job
or a squadron ops job. It itdoesn't feel too too dissimilar
to what I used to do before.It's just the fires are a
(04:48):
different flavor.
It's like a space flavored fireas opposed to a a regular
airplane kinda ops kindasituation.
Bryan (04:55):
So your time at four two seven definitely kind of
prepared you to handle thepressure of this job?
Erin (05:00):
Oh, yeah. I think so. I don't think I would have been
successful without the the timepressure experience I had as an
operations officer and a pilotat four twenty seven, just
because a lot of things here arealso very much under time
pressure as well when you getthe random curve balls and just
managing all of the differentaspects. It's very similar to
(05:21):
standards and training where youhave a series of qualifications
but only so many resources andpeople that have to maintain
certain qualifications ortraining and planning training.
So yeah, it feels very similar.
Also dealing with a lot ofexternal agencies as well and
representing NASA in thoseconversations is is very similar
(05:42):
to soft where you sometimes haveto deal with external agencies,
and you are the onlyrepresentation of the command
they've ever spoken to.
Bryan (05:48):
Right.
Erin (05:49):
So definitely good training. I didn't know it was
good training at the time. Ididn't think I'd work at NASA,
but it ended up being superhelpful.
Bryan (05:55):
Yeah. Probably for me, one of the most exciting of your
job titles at NASA is ISScapsule communicator or CAPCOM.
You're the first Canadian nonastronaut to hold this
qualification. What does thisjob involve?
Erin (06:09):
Yeah. So a CAPCOM or capsule communicator is a flight
controller position in missioncontrol. And in mission control,
there's various engineeringdisciplines that are represented
by flight controllers. And theperson that is in the front room
in the actual mission controlroom that is representing
essentially an engineeringsystem is an expert in that
(06:29):
system. And they are responsiblefor maintaining its health and
then also managing any issuesthat come up.
And all of that is reported tothe flight director, which
essentially is a ship's captain.They own the mission, they own
the space station, they run theflight control room. So it's
super interesting. And then thecapsule communicator sits right
(06:49):
next to the flight director andyou back them up. And my system
is not a hugely technicalsystem, although I did a lot of
engineering type technicalcourses over a year to get
qualified.
And you kind of have a good ideaof how a station works. It's the
most complicated thing I've everhad to learn about. But your job
essentially is managing thesystem that is the astronauts on
(07:10):
board. You're their advocate.You essentially are their
representative on the ground.
So a lot of the time it used tobe an astronaut that would do
that job because they felt thatthey would have the best ability
to represent an astronaut'sinterests. And then over time we
realized with station, it's 20,that thing's been in space for
almost twenty six years, if notlonger at this point, we don't
(07:31):
have enough astronauts to sit atthat console position. So we
started training other peopleand we started training
engineers and then militarymembers. And then eventually we
got to the point where we'relike, Hey, if we bring a foreign
national, maybe a Canadian here,maybe she could do this job. And
so it was a bit of an experimentbecause we'd not done it before.
And it's also a huge privilegebecause it's not a position
(07:54):
normally held by people thathaven't been at NASA for a very
long time. So most of the peoplethat are cross trained as
CAPCOMs that aren't astronautshave been engineers here for a
very long time. So it wasdefinitely a huge privilege, but
also a massive responsibility.And it was a lot to get to know.
But the capsule communicator jobaside from advocating for the
astronauts, they have a verytight timeline that they're
(08:17):
working with on station as well.
Lots of tiny little items ontheir schedule every day. And
it's up to you to kind of makesure that they're almost always
on time, if not early, they aremachines up there working on
these experiments and thevarious maintenance tasks that
they have. But you wanna makesure that, Hey, I know that this
person's been working at thispretty hard. I'm gonna recommend
to flight that we maybe givethem part of the afternoon off
(08:40):
and move that task to a nextday. We've been kind of
overworking them or working thempretty hard.
So you make those types ofsuggestions to flight and you
work through a lot of theprocedures with them as well. If
we're going through amaintenance procedure or fixing
something, or what have you,you'll open the procedure on
your screen. And if they haveany questions or they're you're
following along, there might bean internal discussion between
(09:02):
whoever owns that procedure, theflight director and you, and it
could be extremely engineeringand technically heavy, but the
astronauts are operators. Right?They're not system specialists.
So it's up to you to take inthat information, translate it,
and make it relevant to theastronaut and then help them
through the rest of thatprocedure. They're super smart.
They don't They could probablyfigure it out, but it's always
(09:23):
more time efficient to gostraight to the expert,
especially if they're sitting inthe flight control room.
Bryan (09:27):
For sure.
Erin (09:28):
So there's a lot of that back and forth. And if something
happens, especially in oursimulations, before you end up
in the actual flight controlroom, you'll probably do about
eight simulations. So it's abouteight, ten hour days worth of
simulations where they breakeverything on station. There's a
mock control room that you're inwith fake telemetry and there's
(09:50):
people controlling thesimulation and they will just
make it your worst day. And it'sup to you to make sure that you
guys can work through thoseemergencies.
And once you pass yoursimulations, they're comfortable
that, you know what, on theworst day this person can
perform their job, but it'spretty interesting how many
teams of teams of teams areinvolved in managing station. So
(10:11):
the CAPCOM job is probably theleast technical, but one of the
most impactful in that you kindof set the tone for the day
because you're talking to theastronauts all day. You're with
them in the morning when theywake up and you do your morning
planning conference and yourtone makes a difference. Your
ability to connect with themwhen they're 400 kilometers away
from you ripping around at17,000 miles an hour, they have
(10:34):
a hard job up there and yourtone and how you banter with
them a little bit can reallymake a difference. So it's an
interesting job that way.
But being a member of the flightcontrol team is a huge honor,
especially as someone who's anoutsider because the level of
competency from these engineers,some of whom are very young, is
(10:55):
extremely impressive. And it's alot to take in, but it's also
really cool to watch them workthrough problems.
Bryan (11:01):
Wow. And so it sounds like there's gonna be more and
more opportunities for nonastronauts to hold positions
like CAPCOM and operationsofficer?
Erin (11:09):
Yeah. We're definitely hoping so. We think this job is
a fantastic fantastic way to getspace minded folks the reps that
they need to bring that back toCanada and help us in our
journey at the division and atSpace Wing to operationalize
certain aspects of our mandatethere. So we think it's an
excellent training ground. Andas much as I'd love to stay
(11:30):
forever, I think it's importantthat I head home in about a year
and a half and make sure thatthe next person gets the same
kind of training opportunitiesthat I've had.
Is all of it a 100% relatable toa flying job that I might have
later if I go back to flying?I'm not sure. But either way,
there's things that I've learnedhere in terms of how to be a
(11:52):
better leader and in work inteams and manage some of these
really difficult complexprojects and problem sets. I
think all of that type of thingis gonna be directly applicable
to a next job. And I think someof the technical information can
come back with us to a certainextent as well.
So I'd love to see moreCanadians down here. And I know
that my boss right now, my NASAboss, and he's happy to
(12:13):
potentially have anotherCanadian officer come down here
to fill that ops seat. And Ithink working as a CAPCOM is a
fantastic way to push yourselfin terms of capacity wherever
your background happens to be,whether it's a pilot or an
engineering officer or whatever.It's a great way to learn
(12:33):
exactly what you're capable ofin a moment. Because listening
to 15 different people talk inthe radio and then try and
figure out exactly what it isI'm supposed to be look
listening to and come up with acoherent message, that's a
pretty unique skill.
And I'm happy that I had alittle bit of that from flying
before. But, yeah, I'd love tosee more Canadians down here in
any capacity that we can getthem. It's such an amazing
opportunity to work with ourAmerican partners and do some
(12:56):
really cool work and getCanadians, not just to the ISS,
but maybe over to the moon atsome point too.
Bryan (13:02):
Yeah, that'd be amazing. So we've talked about all this
intense training you do to getqualified as a CAPCOM. You go
through all that. You're finallyqualified as an ISS CAPCOM. What
is your first real call to theISS like?
Erin (13:19):
It's interesting. So when you hit the the button, there's
something called a quindar. It'sthat beep that you hear. And I
was so excited to send my firsttransmission to space. I forgot
to wait.
You're supposed to give yourselflike a two, three pause. You hit
the button, you wait for thequindar. There's this weird
beep. And it's like all of thesevarious ground stations are
(13:39):
doing switching and then firingthings off to a satellite. So
you have to wait before youstart talking.
I didn't wait before I startedtalking. I was so excited. So
that first call was an absolutetrash fire, but I quickly
recovered. That's okay. I thinkit was Matt Dominic I was
speaking to.
He's back now. And, yeah, thatwas just remember being like, oh
my god. It's like the first timeI spoke on the radio as like a
(14:01):
baby pilot. I think I did thesame thing. I just blurted
everything out.
I'm starting to see a patternhere. I told you about my call
sign as well where I got reallyexcited on the radio. So maybe I
should have been better atanticipating this would have
been a problem. But it's reallycool to know that when you do
hit that button and you hear thebeep and you're speaking to the
astronauts, it's not just youand them that are listening.
(14:22):
It's everyone in the frontcontrol room.
It's all the subsystemspecialists that are working in
the back control rooms as well.We have other control centers
that are also key in maintainingeverything that we do on
station. So folks over in Japanat the Japanese Space
Exploration Agency, folks in theCSA at our control room will
also listen, Moscow, Munich. Andit's also public, I realized as
(14:47):
well. It's a little differentthan speaking on a tower
frequency or or terminalfrequency.
You have to know the frequencyand actually want to listen.
Bryan (14:55):
But Yeah. No kidding.
Erin (14:56):
It's a little different when, yeah, hundreds, maybe
thousands of people arelistening to you and you're very
apparently obvious Canadianaccent talking to astronauts on
a station. So it's something Ithink about every time I have
the opportunity to sit consoleand work that you are
representing everybody at NASAand all of our international
(15:18):
partners across the planet andworking with our representatives
up in space. It's pretty cool.It's a neat kinda thing to think
about if you kinda sit back.It's not just chatting on the
radio about a procedure.
It's very symbolic in a way, andit's it's neat to be a part of
it.
Bryan (15:33):
It's also just straight up amazing that you're sitting
there talking to somebody inspace. Like, how cool is that?
Erin (15:40):
Yeah. It's pretty cool. And there isn't as much of a
delay as you think there wouldbe. It's it's pretty good. Yeah.
It's it's super cool if you sitback and think about it. You're
like, my voice is beingtransmitted through gosh knows
how many thousands of kilometersof cable and then up to a
satellite back down and thenreverse the process and it comes
back to me. So it's, it's superneat. And that whole process of
(16:04):
managing comms, and theequipment, belongs to a flight
control position as well. Theground control person manages a
lot of
Bryan (16:11):
that Wow.
Erin (16:12):
To make sure that, you know, voice works and data
works. So it's pretty cool.
Bryan (16:15):
Yeah. That's awesome. Mhmm. So you've mentioned that
the astronauts are yourresponsibility as Capcom. What
does this mean for you in termsof your duties?
Erin (16:25):
Yeah. So kinda like I mentioned, you wanna make sure
that the schedule that you seein front of you makes sense,
that we're not seeing anyconflicts. One of the big things
we advocate for, and it's notthat everyone's trying to just
ram their schedule full and hasno consideration of the
astronauts. They certainly do.Everyone is very conscious of
their time and the amount ofeffort that it takes to do a lot
(16:45):
of that work.
But sometimes you'll seesomething just amiss in a
schedule. And usually that erroris corrected with several plan
reviews that happen before theactual plan of the day is
executed. People are planningstation activities, like, a year
in advance, and then it'sundergoing several reviews.
Bryan (17:01):
Okay.
Erin (17:01):
By the time I'm sitting on console, I usually look out six
days and then work backwardsfrom there as part of your job.
One of your console duties is tomake sure that schedule makes
sense. Like, if we have threedifferent people of the crew are
working on separate experiments,that's gonna be very busy on one
frequency. So maybe I'll do alittle comm plan and make sure
that if there's a payloadactivity that they're gonna work
(17:21):
with Huntsville on a differentfrequency so we can free up the
main frequency for other stuff.So you're doing that.
And then one of the big thingsyou're also keeping an eye on is
their exercise time. Soobviously being in zero G, as
your listeners may already beaware, is very hard on your
body. And one of the best waysto counteract the effects of
being in zero gravity is to makesure you're doing load bearing
(17:44):
exercise every day. And sothere's about two and a little
bit hours every day that theastronauts do some kind of
exercise. There's differenttypes of equipment on board.
There's a weighted treadmillkind of thing where you're like
bungee down to the tread,obviously, so you don't bounce
away. And then it's kind of likea stationary bicycle type
situation with extra resistancethat you strap yourself down to.
(18:04):
And as well, there's a machinethat can kinda do it's got like
a barbell kinda situation onpistons that can give you up to
600 pounds of resistance. Idon't know who's doing deadlifts
like that up there, but probablysomeone. But protecting that
time is really important forthem because they work on such
an insane schedule.
You wanna make sure you'reprotecting that time and not
(18:24):
eating into it. So if you noticethat an activity ahead of their
exercise is taking a little bitlonger, you might start talking
to the person who owns thatactivity and say, Hey, where's a
good place to stop? Because Iwant to give them a break. I
don't want them to run intotheir exercise time, no pun
intended. We have to give themthat section of time.
It's super important, not justfor their health, their physical
(18:45):
health, but their mental healthtoo. It's just a really good
break for them. So little thingslike that. And then sometimes
they'll have to send upprocedures that the astronauts
haven't seen before if somethingbreaks or it's a different
experiment or what have you. Andyou'll go through the procedure
with an astronaut brain and say,does this procedure make sense?
Because sometimes what theengineers think and what the
(19:05):
astronauts think is a little bitdifferent. And so you might make
some comments on the procedurelike, Hey, I don't know if I
were looking at it this way, Idon't know if that would make
sense to me. Is there anotherway you can word that? And you
send that back to the engineer.So there's a lot of things like
that.
And essentially, you're asked tothink like an astronaut when
you're at that console. So youare advocating for them as best
as you can and makingrecommendations sometimes to the
(19:28):
flight director. And sometimesthe flight director will ask you
like, hey, You know thisperson's preferences. Are they
gonna be okay with x, y, and ztoday? And you'll give them an
appropriate answer.
Bryan (19:37):
Okay. Yeah. So there's a lot to take on.
Erin (19:40):
Yeah.
Bryan (19:44):
Recently, you picked up NG 22 or the Northrop Grumman
twenty two ISS resupply leadCapcom assignment. Can you tell
us about this mission and whyyou were assigned to it?
Erin (19:54):
Yeah. I'm pretty sure I was assigned to this mission
because I happen to be Canadianand I am an absolute fan girl
when it comes to Canadian SpaceAgency's robotics. So everyone's
probably heard of the Canadarm.We have a bunch of other
robotics on station as well, butCanadians essentially pioneered
that type of technology onstation. And we have some folks
that are here permanently and anentire section of people that
(20:17):
fly down from the CSA to dorobotics missions.
We will use the arm and theother robotics on station, not
just to do extra vehicularactivities by putting an
astronaut on the end of the armand moving them to where they
need to go. But the arm can alsosort of inchworm its way across
station, which is pretty cool tohelp us do other types of
maintenance. It can move thingsaround for us, including Dexter,
(20:39):
which is kinda he looks likeDexter is a robot that has drive
arms and that kind of thing andcan do small, more dexterous
tasks that the arm can't to helpus do maintenance outside the
station without astronauts. Sothe arm, in a lot of ways helped
build station. It's anincredible technology that
Canadians I wish more Canadiansknew about how impressive this
(21:00):
technology was.
And one of the things the armdoes that is super important is
it helps us capture certaintypes of vehicles when they
approach station. So an uncrewedvehicle like the Northrop
Grumman resupply vehicle willtake a few thousand pounds of
supplies and science up tostation sometime this spring,
and it will stop at a certainpoint close to station, and then
(21:21):
the arm will capture it andbirth it to one of our airlocks.
Bryan (21:24):
Oh, wow.
Erin (21:24):
So we're talking about incredible tolerances,
essentially formation flying at17,000 miles an hour. And the
arm, you know, it's a prettylong device. We'll reach out,
capture the free flyer, bring itin and birth it, and allows us
to dock these vessels, or birththese vessels. It's pretty cool.
So because it involves a fairbit of robotics and I got to do
(21:46):
an amazing course in Montreal atthe CSA headquarters that taught
me how to manually capturevehicles and that kind of thing,
mostly so I know what theastronaut perspective is when
they're capturing a vehicle.
When they're up in the cupolalooking at if they can see it
and doing all of the capturingmanually, it's good to know what
(22:07):
the astronauts have gonethrough. A lot of our training
as a CAPCOM is essentially theground school version of
astronaut training so we knowwhat their perspectives are
like. And I was super keen onthis robotics course and a total
robotics fangirl that my boss islike, This Capcom mission should
probably go to the Canadian whowon't shut up about robotics. So
I'm pretty sure that's why theyhad me do that. So I'll go
(22:29):
through a couple simulationswith the NG team, the visiting
vehicle people, and the rest ofour control room, just to go
through any emergency scenariosthat might happen with a
visiting vehicle.
If we miss a capture orsomething happens with the
vehicle, we like to practicethat before it actually launches
and approaches station. SoCAPCOMs are involved in that
because you're very muchreporting back and forth to the
(22:52):
folks on station before theystart their robotics procedure
about the status of that vehicleand where it is. So that's part
of the job as a CAPCOM during abirthing scenario.
Bryan (23:02):
That's awesome. Is that like the first mission that
you've been assigned?
Erin (23:07):
Yeah. So most of the time as a Capcom, you will be
assigned some kind of mission, Isuppose. You'll be a lead. It's
just a way to spread out all ofthe the work we have to do. So
the guy that I did mySpaceflight Academy with,
another military officer fromthe Space Force, he's going to
be doing the Axiom four crewedmission.
So that's his CAPCOM lead job.So each of us got assigned
(23:29):
something relatively quickly,which is pretty cool. But I'm
just happy that I get to to workwith the Canadian robotics
folks. Well, I mean, there'sAmericans too. Don't get me
wrong.
It's just we developed thetechnology and I'm super excited
about it. So, yeah, I'm hopingI'll get one more probably have
time for one more Capcomassignment after NG twenty two.
Bryan (23:46):
Awesome. So can you share what a typical day might be like
when you are on the console asCapcom? How do you manage
communications and relay whatthe engineers are saying into
astronaut speak?
Erin (23:58):
It's a good question. So it depends on what shift you're
on. Generally, CAPCOMs willeither work the ship that's
aligned with the crew waking upuntil they're midday, that's
called orbit one, and then we'llhand over to the orbit two
CAPCOM, which is kind of middayuntil they're done their
workday. We don't normally staffa CAPCOM overnight when the
astronauts are sleeping becausewe're not talking to them. So
(24:20):
the flight director, ifsomething happens, would
probably call one of us in andthen manage the comms until we
get there.
So orbit one, orbit two, kind ofdepends. For some reason, I'm
not sure if it's because of04/27 and how often we worked at
night, but I tend to like Orbitone. So I'm showing up to the
control center at about 11:45 atnight, sometimes around
(24:42):
midnight. Setting up myconsoles, we have about five
screens that show us the healthof station and the health of all
of our comms equipment as well.And what frequencies are dialed
up where on station and a fewother things that we like to
keep track of.
So we essentially have similarto what you have in an aircraft,
the caution and warningannunciator. We have like a big
(25:03):
one for station. So I like tohave that one right in front of
my face in case somethinghappens. Kind of like a pilot,
you always wanna have a goodview of your caution and warning
panel. So I had that.
And then essentially you gothrough the plan for the day.
You make sure that everyone'sgoing to have enough calm assets
for what they're doing. Ifthere's a complicated procedure
I've not seen before, I'llprobably pull that up and see
(25:23):
how many times they might becalling down and what I need to
expect. If I'm going to needpermission for the astronauts to
continue, that I might have toprearrange that with the person
whose console is responsible forthat procedure. So to make sure
that they're aware too, Hey,when they're in step 15, that
step 18, they're going to calldown for permission to continue.
So I need to make sure that wehave, I don't know, the power
(25:47):
turned off to whatever it isthey're working on and safing is
in place and that kind of stuff.So you're going through your
day. And then just before theastronauts call down for their
morning planning conference, theflight director will pull
everybody in the room, all theflight controllers, and ask if
they have any points. So ifthere's any deltas from the
night before when they had theirreport to what they're reading
(26:07):
this morning, we like to addressthose because the commander
usually to know the health ofstation. And if anything's
changed overnight, they kind ofwant to know.
They're kind of like their ownversion of a ship's captain up
there. They want to know thehealth of their ship. So you'll
take note of that. Each consolewill kind of give you
information about what theirplan is for the day and what
might impact other consolepositions and how that might
(26:28):
impact the astronauts. I onlyreally I listen for the context,
but unless there's an impact tocrew, I'm not usually writing
down like turbo detail about it.
So if I hear that, Oh, hey,there's gonna be an interruption
on this calm frequency orwhatever, that's gonna interrupt
my plan for the day. So I mighttell the crew like, Hey, you
don't have access to thisfrequency. That's gonna kind of
(26:50):
change things a little bit. Soyou gather all that information
so the astronauts have reallygood context and then you just
kind of proceed with theschedule. So translating things
into astronaut speak isessentially they want to know
what they need to do as anoperator.
Some astronauts everyone'sdifferent. Some people want the
(27:10):
nitty gritty detail as to whyspecifically this very specific
thing didn't act the way that wewere expecting. And then some
astronauts are like, Okay, cool.What do I do with it? So it's
kind of getting to know whateach astronaut wants as well and
sometimes what the commanderwants.
So the flight director needs allof that extreme engineering
(27:30):
detail so that they can make anappropriate decision. But the
astronauts don't need all ofthat background stuff. They need
the high level context and theimpacts to them. So it's up to
me to kind of translate what I'mhearing happening in the flight
control room and give theastronauts enough context that
they're comfortable that theyknow what's happening, but not
so much detail that I'm takingup their day explaining things
(27:53):
that aren't really superapplicable to them in the moment
because they can't do anythingabout it. It's probably a ground
action that has to happen.
So that comes with time andcertain consoles are a little
easier to understand thanothers. There's a couple
consoles that are superelectrical engineering heavy,
and I find those ones a littlebit more difficult. I have to
spend a lot of extra timereading about that console or
(28:14):
contact that flight controlleron their own personal loop and
say, You just said this, what isthe follow on impact if you have
to do the thing that you'retalking about? Like talk to me
like I'm five because I don'tunderstand exactly what you're
saying. Other consoles a littlebit more, I'm a little bit more
comfortable with them.
So the biomedical engineeringgroup and the Oso flight
(28:38):
controllers that manage thingsthat get broken, they're more
like mechanical engineers. So Itend to have a little bit, I'm a
little bit more comfortable withthose types of conversations
when they get super technical.My weak spot, and I think a lot
of people's weak spot is withpower generation and the very
sophisticated comms equipment.When those engineers start
talking back and forth, I get alittle lost. So I have to very
(29:01):
much keep track of what's goingon and ask for extra context if
I need it.
And it's my job to make surethat I'm getting enough context
that the astronauts know what'sgoing on. So that's the
difficult part about this job isthose engineers are like ten
years or six years or five yearsto get to that position. They've
gone through the backroomsubspecialties to get there.
(29:23):
They're very well versed. AndI've been doing this for a year
And I have to know a little bitabout each of their stations so
I can give the astronauts goodcontext.
So it's a little bit difficult,but it does remind me of that
relationship sometimes you havewith your maintenance folks back
from a window squadron where Ican describe to you kinda high
level what I think is wrong, butyou're the expert. I just need
(29:44):
to know what to do with it rightnow. So it kind of reminds me of
that relationship a little bit.
Bryan (29:48):
Yeah. That's a great comparison. Like basically, as
an operator, you've got like awider but less deep breadth of
knowledge. Whereas, like, yoursubject matter experts, your
SMEs, have typically like a verymuch more narrow but extremely
deep breadth of knowledge ontopics.
Erin (30:07):
That's a really good way to describe it. And I'd I'd
probably say that's prettyaccurate. So it also comes with
time. Like I need to remindmyself that I've been here since
August of twenty twenty three.I'm not gonna be a station
expert, but I do study at hometo make sure that I can at least
maintain that shallower depth ofknowledge.
But it's enough that if I knowwhere my weaknesses are and I
(30:30):
can always reach out to theother flight directors. But you
have to be very precise withwhat you're transmitting up,
even though you're giving themcontext. Miss speaking on the
loops is very much not great.Precision is very important
because of what it is we'retrying to describe. And I often
can't see them and they can'tsee me.
So as much as I talk with myhands all the time and could be
(30:51):
pointing to a point on theirprocedure, that's not going to
help them. So you have to getvery good at explaining what you
mean and using correctterminology. So it's been a bit
of a learning curve, but that'swhat those simulations are for,
is to shake all of that out andto get you used to having to do
that quick translation and thenjumping in. If you don't
understand or something doesn'tmake sense that you're getting
(31:12):
that information right awaybecause the astronauts might be
waiting on critical context orinstructions during an emergency
in those simulations. So youwanna make sure that you have
that confidence to say, I didn'tcatch your last.
Say again, less complicated thistime.
Bryan (31:25):
Yeah. That makes sense. So that's kind of an in-depth
look at your shift as a Capcom.You do have three official job
titles. Can you give us just abroad look at what your week
looks like in Houston?
Erin (31:38):
Yeah. So Monday morning meetings, it's essentially an
all hands. So the astronauts arethere, all of our support staff
in the office, and it kinda setsa tone for the week. But my job
varies a little bit depending onwhat it is I need to be doing.
So I keep an eye on what myschedulers do, but they've been
there longer than me.
They're experts with that stuff.I just keep an eye on currencies
(31:58):
and qualifications. And ifanyone's coming up to a red line
with something like that, butmost of my week is in and out of
training meetings to make surethat we're lining up training
that makes sense for folks. Anda lot of, sometimes just fires
to put things out. But a lot ofmy week, the past little while
has been taken up withadditional training.
So just because I'm an opso andI deal with readiness reviews
(32:20):
and essentially writing con opsand stuff like that, I still do
a lot of training to make surethat my perspective on what the
astronauts are dealing with,especially in terms of their
training makes sense. So I'vebeen observing some of their
training to make sure that it'sfitting with our mandate to get
folks ready for the moon. Soactually on Monday, I head out
(32:41):
to do a field medical trainingcourse with the astronauts where
we do a five day rotation at ahospital up in Houston. And
that's essentially to give themhands on training and practical
skills with suturing and stuffand how we can use that to get
people ready for the moon wherethey might have to do more
complex medical proceduresbecause they're going to be days
(33:02):
away from assistance. They'regoing to have to be able to rely
on themselves.
It's a little easier. It's stillcomplicated, but it's a little
faster to evacuate someone fromstation if we had to. But from
the Moon, they're going to haveto be self sufficient. So how
does that field medical trainingfit into our bigger picture? I'm
heading over to Florida to talkto the folks about the
helicopters we're getting to seeand make sure that the training
that I'm developing for thatmakes sense for our larger
(33:24):
picture when it comes topotential manual control if we
need it landing on the moon.
So there's all those little tinythings that are kind of
impactful that all kind of addup throughout a week and you
attack them as best you canamongst your other stuff. And on
occasion, I'll hop intotraining. Like last week I was
on a lunar geology course tomake sure that I understood the
(33:45):
type of content our astronautswere getting and then it made
sense. And it was a superfantastic course. But a lot of
that feeds back into the othertraining we're doing too.
So are they getting enough fieldgeology time? Is there a way we
can add that into the astronautcandidate class this year that
makes more sense in terms of theflow and the extra information
that they're gonna have to know?So it all kind of It's like a
(34:06):
typical ops job in that there'sa million things happening all
the time, but all of them are inthe same vein and that we're
trying to make sure the trainingmakes the most sense for our
folks as we pivot back to theMoon. So I wish I could give you
an actual answer. It's differentevery week.
The only thing that's consistentis that I'm very busy. Yeah.
It's nice sometimes to take abreak and go sit on console or
(34:29):
go hang out with a bunch ofastronauts giving people
sutures. Like, that's gonna beinteresting too watching them do
that. But it's all in service tothe same thing as making sure
that our training makes sensefor the hard jobs that they have
to do and that we're buying downrisk by making sure that they
have appropriate training.
Yeah.
Bryan (34:45):
Yeah. Sounds super busy, but sounds awesome.
Erin (34:49):
Yeah.
Bryan (34:50):
You mentioned this a couple times. NASA is pivoting
back to the moon with theArtemis program. How will this
round of lunar explorationdiffer from previous missions?
Erin (35:00):
This one, we're using different technology. Right?
We've pretty much redesignedeverything from the capsule to
the spacesuits to the traversesthat they're doing on the
surface to the type ofinformation we're trying to
collect. And when we go back tothe moon and we land on it this
time, we're going to land in theSouth Pole. It's a place we
haven't been before.
It's different geology. Theterrain is more rugged. So we're
(35:23):
gonna be looking for differentanswers out of the geology
there. So the problem with theSouth Pole or one of the issues
they're gonna have to manage isillumination. So the South Pole
is a little bit more difficultto get solar power.
They're gonna have to move itaround. It's just the way the
things work in terms of shadowand that kind of stuff. And
because of the terrain they'reworking on, the suits are
(35:44):
different and astronauts arebeing trained right now in
different types of tools andthat kind of stuff. So the
mission is the same in that wewanna go to the moon and learn
as much as we can because thegeology of the moon is important
in telling us a story about theearth's formation, believe it or
not. So it's important to do,figure out if we can find some
(36:04):
water there.
So the mission's the same, likeI said, but how we're
approaching it's going to bedifferent just because of the
technology and we're doing itfifty years later. But how I fit
into this is just to make surethat the astronauts, because we
haven't done this in a while,there's lots of really smart
folks that have been here a lotlonger that are involved in
(36:24):
larger pieces of the specificplanning that they're doing. But
is there anything that I can doas the operations officer to
help manage that pivot and makesure that the training that
we're doing both helps them getready for the ISS as well as be
useful for our return to themoon as well? So it's finding
those efficiencies where I can.And some of those things
(36:46):
crossover, like learning how tofly helicopters as an astronaut,
we get a lot of questions aboutthat.
But the side by side nature ofbeing in a helicopter is very
much like being in a crewcapsule. The cognitive loading
is actually a little bitdifferent in terms of when
you're getting close to theground and you're landing visual
illusions, degraded visualenvironments with dust balls and
that kind of stuff. Yourphysical communication between
(37:09):
each other when you become tasksaturated with someone who
hasn't flown helicopters before,sometimes they just stop talking
to you because they don't hearanything anymore. They're so
task saturated. So finding waysto use these devices that we
have to get people ready forsome of the hardest things we've
ever done as a human race island people on another celestial
body.
(37:30):
How can we use the tools that wehave now to help not only for
the ISS mission, but for themoon as well? So we're
incorporating some things thatwere different than last time we
did this, and it's cool to be atiny, tiny, tiny part of it. I'm
not designing, like, all of thetraining plans. It's just the
stuff within my ops office forunassigned astronauts. We're
trying to make sure that itmakes sense for the next pivot,
(37:50):
and that's kind of my job.
Bryan (37:51):
That's awesome. Yeah. And do I have it right that this
time they're looking toactually, like, establish a base
on the moon?
Erin (37:58):
I think the the moon to Mars program, that's one of the
goals, I believe. I don'tremember, like, where on the
list of objectives that is, butwe'd like to prove that
technology on the moon becauseit's difficult to live somewhere
other than on this planet. Thestation, we know we can do it on
station, but setting up apermanent facility on the moon
is gonna be very challenging,but will help us build the base
(38:20):
of knowledge that we need inorder to do this on Mars. So I
think that's part of the overallkind of spectrum of things we're
doing there on the Moon to makesure we have the skills figured
out solid before we go millionsof kilometers away Yeah. To to
Mars.
Bryan (38:37):
The fifteenth anniversary Northern Lights Award Gala for
Canadian Women in Aviation washeld in Toronto on 10/05/2024,
and you were presented with theElsie McGill award in the
government category. Why do youthink you were presented with
this and what did it mean toyou?
Erin (38:51):
I was super surprised to have been nominated for that
award. When I was called by theorganizer that I was invited to
come up and receive the award, Iwas like, That's very nice. I
wonder who nominated me. And itturned out it was two different
groups of people, Josh Kutrickand some folks, and then an old
coworker of mine in one of myflights at 04:27 and some folks
(39:16):
that he knew. And it was nice tobe recognized, although I'm kind
of a more of a humble person.
I like to try and stay in thebackground a little bit. But I
think it was because of thisexplosion of duties and things
that I've taken on. And I dotake the responsibility and the
opportunity to represent Canadain a very unique way, both as a
(39:38):
CAPCOM and as a branch chief,deputy branch chief for
operations. I get to representCanada and use some of the best
training that I've ever receivedto help kind of inform some of
the training that we're doingdown here to send people back to
the moon, which is pretty cool.So I think it was just a
recognition of that.
All of this stuff is new forCanada and I'm hoping that we
(40:02):
can continue this work, but Ithink it was a great way to
maybe highlight that honestly,someone like me, as many
difficulties as I've hadthroughout my career and had to
kind of rejig and find new plansand all that kind of stuff that
you can still You still have alot to offer, even though you
might not be perfect the firsttime you try something that you
(40:25):
can rally all of your skills anddo some really cool stuff. So it
was nice to be recognized. Hugehonor. It makes me a little
teary, to be honest, to berecognized in a national forum
like that. But I hope it servesto prove to anyone that you can
really honestly reach for whatyou want to do if you put your
(40:47):
head head down and just justwork at stuff.
Bryan (40:50):
Yeah. What are some of the most important lessons you
have learned so far at NASA?
Erin (40:56):
Interesting question. Most important lessons. I think it's
to ask questions and just beconfident to apply your
knowledge. I think my mostimportant lesson, because it
still strikes me as odd that I'min this position that as a not
just as a CAPCOM, but also asthe deputy branch chief for crew
(41:20):
ops after not being at NASA verylong, is that if NASA thinks I
have the capacity to do thisjob, I should probably think
that I have the capacity to dothis job. So from a personal
sense, I think the mostimportant thing I've learned is
that it may have taken forever,like I'm 40 years old, but it
might finally becoming a littlebit more confident in myself.
(41:41):
And I've had the ultimate sortof external validation that NASA
thinks I'm competent to do someof the stuff that I'm doing, so
maybe I should as well. And Ithink that's probably my most
important personal lesson. Andthen in terms of a professional
lesson, even though I'm acaptain and I come from a
special forces background, avery small community, I've never
(42:03):
really worked in theconventional air force before,
People are excited to want tohelp when it comes to space
stuff. GRCC was excited. ThreeCFFTS was excited.
The CSA actually has beenexcited to get a little bit more
involved as well in areas thatthey haven't been involved in
because they have some randomcaptain that's willing to invite
them down to do stuff. So it'slike, you don't have to
(42:26):
necessarily stay in your littlebox if you're polite and you
have a good reason. You canreach outside of that and get
some really cool stuff done. Soit's to think, continue to think
outside the box, but also reachpast some of those traditional
barriers we sometimes just putin front of ourselves by talking
ourselves out of stuff to beginwith. And that probably applies
(42:47):
to my ops job here as well.
I've had a few ideas that Ithought, you know what?
Someone's just gonna say no tothis. I don't even think I
should bring it up. And then youbring it up and your boss is
like, you should run with that.And you're like, oh, okay.
So learning to trust yourselfthat you're there for a reason
and that you might actually haveideas that can benefit an
organization even like NASA as anew outsider. Those have been
(43:09):
some pretty cool lessons tolearn here.
Bryan (43:12):
I like what you said about the kind of the validation
of, hey, NASA thinks I can dothis. I should also think I can
do this. I think that'ssomething that pilots can't
well, and many people of manywalks of life can use I think
back to the the pilot world,let's say the first time you get
sent solo or upgrading toaircraft commander and you get
(43:35):
that stamp in your logbook, youknow, there's a whole group of
people. There's a whole bunchof, like, a whole system that is
saying, hey. You are qualifiedto do this.
Like, go forth and do this. Andreally, we should be believing
in ourselves as well once whenyou have that validation.
Erin (43:52):
Yeah. I agree. I just there's probably been enough
points across if we look at thearc of Aaron Edwards here from
getting my private pilot'slicense and the ship's team
diving qual and passing Marstraining and getting selected
for soft and blah blah blah blahblah. It's taken me a long time.
And usually I have to look backat those things to be like, Oh
yeah, I did that.
(44:14):
So the external validation thingis obviously we should all be
internally validated with whatwe do, but sometimes it takes
looking back over a history ofthe things that you've done to
to put it all together and say,no. You know what? Actually, at
this point in my life, I amcapable of some pretty cool
stuff. I should just probably gowith that. So it's an
(44:34):
interesting interesting thing todo when you look back at that
sometimes.
Bryan (44:38):
For sure. So what are your future plans after your
current posting at NASA iscomplete?
Erin (44:43):
That's a really good question. Honestly, I think my
my career so far has been metrying to do things that seemed
really interesting andchallenging. I haven't actually
had a career plan before. Sothis whole concept of trying to
figure out exactly where Ishould end up is kind of new for
me. I've just always just triedstuff and kinda wanted to see
(45:06):
where it would end up.
So I think it makes sense thatgiven the opportunity that I've
had, that this training and theinformation and what I've
learned here, we should find away to kind of plug it back into
Canadian military space. So myguess is I'll probably end up
somewhere within seven wingspace, that would make sense, or
back at four twenty seven flyingand also maybe working to
(45:30):
advance the space liaisonportfolio that we have out there
too. So I think that's probablythe best two places I could end
up again. I still fly now.Actually, go back every quarter,
very fortunate to stay current.
I think that's because the planhad been when I left, when I
left a little earlier than wenormally have our aircraft
commanders leave, that I wouldcome back and do another flying
(45:51):
tour. So I maintain a utilitycategory right now and it has
turned out to be very useful forthe work I'm doing down here.
But I think it would one ofthose two places makes the most
sense of trying to find a way tocombine those two things, but
there's a lot of stuff I'velearned down here I think could
be beneficial back in the airforce. And you know what? Think
(46:13):
I might still have one moreflying tour in me, we'll see.
But honestly, I'm happy to gowhere I'm gonna be best suited
for helping. I'm not too fussedabout where I get posted so long
as I'm able to to be usedeffectively in advancing our
missions.
Bryan (46:31):
Yeah. I mean, again, you know, that's the perfect
attitude. Right? Like, those arethe people who end up happy
wherever they end up.
Erin (46:38):
Absolutely. I think, like, Ottawa area would be nice, but
I'm honestly happy just to to becontributing how best I can. So
Mhmm. My guess is probably backto '47 or somewhere in the in
the space space world in Ottawa.
Bryan (46:52):
Okay. Why specifically should pilots consider a career
in aerospace and spaceexploration?
Erin (47:00):
I think it's a natural progression. Like, at some
point, those skills are gonna beneeded for more consistent
flights to low Earth orbit.Space is, I mean, aside from
being super cool, I think it isour next leap. We might not see
people fly into space regularlyin the military or anything like
that for decades, but it's adomain that literally touches
(47:22):
the aerospace domain. Space isabove the air.
They are one in the same. So Ithink it's important that maybe
we don't pursue careers in themnecessarily, but as a pilot, I
think you need to have a goodunderstanding how space affects
you. Whether you're military orcivilian, doesn't really matter.
But space, especially now, wementioned it a little bit
(47:44):
before, super important toeverything that we do. So if
you're a pilot, it's definitelyan area you should be aware of
at the very least.
It's important to your job.
Bryan (47:56):
Okay. So we're into our final set of questions. We
always try to ask thesequestions. What is something you
do to stay ready to do your manycomplex jobs?
Erin (48:06):
You know what? For me, it's usually been sports. I
think you need to have a breakfrom all of the insane stuff
you're doing, Whether you'relike me and you take on too many
jobs at NASA or you're a pilotor some other aerospace trade,
it's really easy when there's somuch work to do to get to dive
(48:26):
right in and wanna attackeverything all the time, but you
become less effective over timeif you're not physically ready
for that challenge. So prettymuch everywhere I've ever been
posted, I end up joining somekind of team. So for me, sports
as a break and sports as a meansto stay fit are kinda how I'm
able to maintain my output.
If I didn't play rugby and Iwasn't sort of dedicated to
(48:50):
running and lifting, I knowwhere I'd be. Probably
completely burnt out is myguess. But even back in
Petawawa, I was very consistentabout the climbing club. I
climbed a lot, I ran a lot, andthat was sort of a forced break.
And also for me, back at fourtwenty seven, I'm a relatively
small individual, maintaining areally high level of fitness was
(49:13):
important to me because of thenature of my job.
I had to work at a pretty highpercentage of my body weight
when I had all my stuff on and Iwanted to make sure I was still
effective. So, I mean, for me,every day is leg day. That
happened at 47. So I try andmaintain that as best I can
here. So that's, I think how I'mbest able to maintain my
(49:35):
effectiveness and being forcedby my friends and family
sometimes to take actual leave,not that kind of fake working
leave.
I think that's important too.You can't be effective over a
long period of time if you'rejust tired and burnt out.
Bryan (49:50):
Yeah. No. No matter how much you love the job, no matter
how much you enjoy what you'redoing, you gotta take a break.
Erin (49:55):
Yeah. For sure.
Bryan (49:58):
What are some essential skills and traits that make a
great Capcom?
Erin (50:02):
Good question. I'd say probably the ultimate listening
skills. You're listening to theastronauts. You're listening for
their tone, not just the words.You're listening to everything
that's happening, whether it'son their frequencies or over the
air, like flight director toflight director over the
console, or you're listening tomultiple different conversations
(50:22):
happening at one time.
I think that's important. Andalso a concept of understanding
that the job you have isextremely important. You might
be the person telling thestation that there is an
emergency and you have to beable to jump on that and
moderate your tone to indicateto them that there's something
going on that they really needto pay attention to. So I think
(50:43):
it's actually probably more thanthe technical skills that
everyone can learn a little bitmore easily. There's a lot of
soft skills involved ininterpersonal stuff.
So I think being humble,understanding that you are just
one person in a very importantteam, but you are an individual
that is important, but you arepart of a team and you have to
(51:05):
understand that. So betweenlistening skills and
interpersonal skills, I thinkthose are probably the most
important ones.
Bryan (51:11):
Okay. What advice would you give to young people who are
interested in careers inaerospace and space exploration?
Erin (51:19):
Just just do it. Find something within those sectors,
whether it's geology or testpiloting or engineering. Find
something that you really enjoythat you can get really good at.
And usually, you'll find fromthat, there is some direct line
into space. So I think thatwould probably be my best advice
(51:39):
is you want to be passionateabout the thing that you're
studying and hope that it cankind of get you into space
because space requires a lot ofpassion, but also a lot of
patience.
So the thing that you're doingor the sector that you've
involved yourself in within thatwhole space architecture, you
want to make sure that you enjoywhat you're doing. So be
passionate about what you'restudying.
Bryan (52:01):
So finally, I've got to ask a phrase you use often in
social media posts is ad Astranerds. What's the story behind
this?
Erin (52:11):
I'm surprised you caught that, and I probably have to
take it out of my signatureblock now. But, yeah, I like the
motto. I've always enjoyed thateven when I was a kid and in
grade eight when we had to learnLatin. I'm like, yeah, pathway
to the stars. And then obviouslythe or through adversity to the
stars and the RCF motto issimilar.
And I feel like in a lot ofways, I've been a kid that has
(52:35):
always wanted to go to space orbe involved in space and have
had my own adversities along theway. But if there's one thing
that stayed consistent throughthat entire time is the fact
that I am a giant nerd. Youcan't see all the Lego behind
me, but it's all space related.And I think just reminding
yourself of where you've comefrom and who you are is kind of
encapsulated in that littleslogan there at Astroneerds.
(53:01):
Yeah.
Because I think it's just becomemy byline at this point.
Bryan (53:04):
Yeah. I love it. That's awesome. And for what it's
worth, I totally connect as wellwith Perardo at Astra. The idea
of through adversity has alwaysreally spoken to me.
It's especially spoken to mesince I ended up with a mental
health injury and going throughmedical release and all that
kind of stuff. I just keep thatthat phrase in mind and it it
(53:26):
really speaks to me. So I loveit.
Erin (53:28):
Yeah. I totally agree.
Bryan (53:31):
Okay. Erin, this has been such an interesting
conversation. I really wannathank you for your time, but and
your insights, but also for yourhard work. Canadians are known
as hardworking and dependable atNASA, and you are obviously
keeping up with that tradition.So thank you so much, and thank
you for being here.
Erin (53:47):
Alright. Well, I appreciate the time. And you
know what I'm gonna say next.Right?
Bryan (53:51):
Yeah. Go for it.
Erin (53:53):
At Astra Nerds.
Bryan (53:56):
Okay. That wraps up our chat with captain Aaron Edwards
down in Houston working with theCanadian Space Agency and NASA.
For next week, we'll be taking abreak. There will be no episode
next week as we are on vacation.For the following week, we'll be
sitting down with lieutenantcolonel Francois Pasquale,
lieutenant colonel Luke Coates,and major Dan Fox for a special
(54:19):
on location interview we did inComox, BC for an in-depth
discussion on the c two ninetyfive Kingfisher.
Do you have any questions orcomments about anything you've
heard in this show? Would you orsomeone you know make a great
guest, or do you have a greatidea for a show? You can reach
out to us at thepilotprojectpodcast@Gmail.com or
on all social media at at podpilot project. And be sure to
(54:41):
check out that social media forlots of great videos of our RCAF
aircraft. As always, we'd liketo thank you for tuning in and
ask for your help with the bigthree.
That's like and follow us onsocial media, share with your
friends, and follow and rate usfive stars wherever you get your
podcasts. That's all for now.Thanks for listening. Keep the
blue side up. See you.
Intro/Outro (55:02):
Engineer, shut down all four. Shutting down all four
engines.
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Intro/Outro (00:30):
Fuel and ignition switches. On. RPM switches. Set.
PD switches.
Normal. Doors and hatches.Closed. Lay down. Stroblade.
On. Research check-in. Completewith your left. Engineer. Start
number two.
Starting to. Wing three one zeroten, pilot project podcast.
(00:50):
Clear takeoff Runway 31 left.
Bryan (00:58):
Alright. We're ready for departure here at the pilot
project podcast, the best sourcefor stories and advice from RCAF
and mission aviation pilotsbrought to you by Skies
Magazine. I'm your host, BrianMorrison. With me today is
captain Aaron Edwards, an RCAFpilot who is a Canadian capsule
communicator or CAPCOM currentlyworking with NASA. Erin, welcome
back to the show and thanks onceagain for being here.
Erin (01:18):
Thank you. Happy to be here.
Bryan (01:20):
Listeners can check out part one to hear all about
Erin's experiences within theflight training program of the
RCAF. And part two focuses onher time in four two seven
special operations aviationsquadron, as well as the
beginning of her time workingwith the Canadian Space Agency
and NASA. Now for the final partof our chat, we will be talking
all about her time down inHouston. So you are now also the
(01:42):
astronaut office deputy branchchief for crew operations or
operations officer, and it's thefirst time a non astronaut has
held this position. Can youdescribe the various aspects of
this job?
Erin (01:52):
Yeah. So if you think of your busiest, squadron level
opso, that's essentially what myjob is. So every unassigned
astronaut belongs to the crewops office. At a certain point,
we'll hand them over to adifferent cell that plans their
mission trainings, missionspecific training. But when
(02:14):
they're back here just in theirregular flow waiting to be
assigned again, or they're brandnew astronauts that need to go
through training, they allbelong to the ops office.
And you'd think for 50 some oddpeople plus new astronauts like
we're getting this year, whichwill be maybe twelve, fourteen,
16, I'm actually not sure yet.Wow. You'd think we'd have a lot
of staff. We don't have a lot ofstaff. It's me, my branch chief,
(02:40):
and two and a half schedulers,one of our folks is part time.
And between us, we manage a lotof different things, but it
kinda feels like you are in awing ops kind of scenario. Like
my boss is the wing commander,you might kind of call him,
deals with all of the up andout, the strat level stuff, the
funding, the budgets, a littlebit of timing of our larger
(03:00):
training objectives, and theneverything else he kind of
pushes down to me. So I'llmanage the bigger pieces of that
planning. So when we're going todo it, the readiness reviews,
who's going to go on thetraining, whether or not that
training makes sense. Are therechanges I can make to it to make
sure it's more relevant?
And then from there, it goesdown to my schedulers to make
sure that I have bodies thatmatch the requirement to go to
(03:23):
that course. So those are kindof like the big things that we
manage, the variousexpeditionary courses that we
send astronauts on, but there'salso all the day to day planning
that we have to manage as wellbecause astronauts, whether
you're a pilot or you're rearseat qualified in the T-thirty
eight Talon, I think it's aNovember model here, there's
flying requirements we have todo. So we schedule them for
(03:44):
that. They have to go do theirspacesuit diving essentially in
the Neutral Buoyancy Lab, one ofthe biggest pools in the world
where they have a mock up of theexterior station. They have to
maintain their qualification ordo a qualification in that as
well.
And there's just hundreds ofother discrete tasks that
they're required to dothroughout the year and maintain
currencies and qualificationson. So it's managing a giant
(04:05):
puzzle throughout most of theyear. And then there's always
the odd curve ball that comes upas well. It wouldn't be ops
without fires to put out. Andpart of my responsibility too is
part of that CAPCOM job, thecapsule communicator job is
there's a whole branch ofengineer CAPCOMs.
We're not they're not allastronauts, and they're not all
just officers like me. We have alot of people that are dual
(04:28):
trained flight controllers thatcome from engineering trades
that are also then cross trainedas CAPCOMs and managing that
roster of people and theirqualifications as well. So it's
a big job, but it honestly justfeels like like a wing ops job
or a squadron ops job. It itdoesn't feel too too dissimilar
to what I used to do before.It's just the fires are a
(04:48):
different flavor.
It's like a space flavored fireas opposed to a a regular
airplane kinda ops kindasituation.
Bryan (04:55):
So your time at four two seven definitely kind of
prepared you to handle thepressure of this job?
Erin (05:00):
Oh, yeah. I think so. I don't think I would have been
successful without the the timepressure experience I had as an
operations officer and a pilotat four twenty seven, just
because a lot of things here arealso very much under time
pressure as well when you getthe random curve balls and just
managing all of the differentaspects. It's very similar to
(05:21):
standards and training where youhave a series of qualifications
but only so many resources andpeople that have to maintain
certain qualifications ortraining and planning training.
So yeah, it feels very similar.
Also dealing with a lot ofexternal agencies as well and
representing NASA in thoseconversations is is very similar
(05:42):
to soft where you sometimes haveto deal with external agencies,
and you are the onlyrepresentation of the command
they've ever spoken to.
Bryan (05:48):
Right.
Erin (05:49):
So definitely good training. I didn't know it was
good training at the time. Ididn't think I'd work at NASA,
but it ended up being superhelpful.
Bryan (05:55):
Yeah. Probably for me, one of the most exciting of your
job titles at NASA is ISScapsule communicator or CAPCOM.
You're the first Canadian nonastronaut to hold this
qualification. What does thisjob involve?
Erin (06:09):
Yeah. So a CAPCOM or capsule communicator is a flight
controller position in missioncontrol. And in mission control,
there's various engineeringdisciplines that are represented
by flight controllers. And theperson that is in the front room
in the actual mission controlroom that is representing
essentially an engineeringsystem is an expert in that
(06:29):
system. And they are responsiblefor maintaining its health and
then also managing any issuesthat come up.
And all of that is reported tothe flight director, which
essentially is a ship's captain.They own the mission, they own
the space station, they run theflight control room. So it's
super interesting. And then thecapsule communicator sits right
(06:49):
next to the flight director andyou back them up. And my system
is not a hugely technicalsystem, although I did a lot of
engineering type technicalcourses over a year to get
qualified.
And you kind of have a good ideaof how a station works. It's the
most complicated thing I've everhad to learn about. But your job
essentially is managing thesystem that is the astronauts on
(07:10):
board. You're their advocate.You essentially are their
representative on the ground.
So a lot of the time it used tobe an astronaut that would do
that job because they felt thatthey would have the best ability
to represent an astronaut'sinterests. And then over time we
realized with station, it's 20,that thing's been in space for
almost twenty six years, if notlonger at this point, we don't
(07:31):
have enough astronauts to sit atthat console position. So we
started training other peopleand we started training
engineers and then militarymembers. And then eventually we
got to the point where we'relike, Hey, if we bring a foreign
national, maybe a Canadian here,maybe she could do this job. And
so it was a bit of an experimentbecause we'd not done it before.
And it's also a huge privilegebecause it's not a position
(07:54):
normally held by people thathaven't been at NASA for a very
long time. So most of the peoplethat are cross trained as
CAPCOMs that aren't astronautshave been engineers here for a
very long time. So it wasdefinitely a huge privilege, but
also a massive responsibility.And it was a lot to get to know.
But the capsule communicator jobaside from advocating for the
astronauts, they have a verytight timeline that they're
(08:17):
working with on station as well.
Lots of tiny little items ontheir schedule every day. And
it's up to you to kind of makesure that they're almost always
on time, if not early, they aremachines up there working on
these experiments and thevarious maintenance tasks that
they have. But you wanna makesure that, Hey, I know that this
person's been working at thispretty hard. I'm gonna recommend
to flight that we maybe givethem part of the afternoon off
(08:40):
and move that task to a nextday. We've been kind of
overworking them or working thempretty hard.
So you make those types ofsuggestions to flight and you
work through a lot of theprocedures with them as well. If
we're going through amaintenance procedure or fixing
something, or what have you,you'll open the procedure on
your screen. And if they haveany questions or they're you're
following along, there might bean internal discussion between
(09:02):
whoever owns that procedure, theflight director and you, and it
could be extremely engineeringand technically heavy, but the
astronauts are operators. Right?They're not system specialists.
So it's up to you to take inthat information, translate it,
and make it relevant to theastronaut and then help them
through the rest of thatprocedure. They're super smart.
They don't They could probablyfigure it out, but it's always
(09:23):
more time efficient to gostraight to the expert,
especially if they're sitting inthe flight control room.
Bryan (09:27):
For sure.
Erin (09:28):
So there's a lot of that back and forth. And if something
happens, especially in oursimulations, before you end up
in the actual flight controlroom, you'll probably do about
eight simulations. So it's abouteight, ten hour days worth of
simulations where they breakeverything on station. There's a
mock control room that you're inwith fake telemetry and there's
(09:50):
people controlling thesimulation and they will just
make it your worst day. And it'sup to you to make sure that you
guys can work through thoseemergencies.
And once you pass yoursimulations, they're comfortable
that, you know what, on theworst day this person can
perform their job, but it'spretty interesting how many
teams of teams of teams areinvolved in managing station. So
(10:11):
the CAPCOM job is probably theleast technical, but one of the
most impactful in that you kindof set the tone for the day
because you're talking to theastronauts all day. You're with
them in the morning when theywake up and you do your morning
planning conference and yourtone makes a difference. Your
ability to connect with themwhen they're 400 kilometers away
from you ripping around at17,000 miles an hour, they have
(10:34):
a hard job up there and yourtone and how you banter with
them a little bit can reallymake a difference. So it's an
interesting job that way.
But being a member of the flightcontrol team is a huge honor,
especially as someone who's anoutsider because the level of
competency from these engineers,some of whom are very young, is
(10:55):
extremely impressive. And it's alot to take in, but it's also
really cool to watch them workthrough problems.
Bryan (11:01):
Wow. And so it sounds like there's gonna be more and
more opportunities for nonastronauts to hold positions
like CAPCOM and operationsofficer?
Erin (11:09):
Yeah. We're definitely hoping so. We think this job is
a fantastic fantastic way to getspace minded folks the reps that
they need to bring that back toCanada and help us in our
journey at the division and atSpace Wing to operationalize
certain aspects of our mandatethere. So we think it's an
excellent training ground. Andas much as I'd love to stay
(11:30):
forever, I think it's importantthat I head home in about a year
and a half and make sure thatthe next person gets the same
kind of training opportunitiesthat I've had.
Is all of it a 100% relatable toa flying job that I might have
later if I go back to flying?I'm not sure. But either way,
there's things that I've learnedhere in terms of how to be a
(11:52):
better leader and in work inteams and manage some of these
really difficult complexprojects and problem sets. I
think all of that type of thingis gonna be directly applicable
to a next job. And I think someof the technical information can
come back with us to a certainextent as well.
So I'd love to see moreCanadians down here. And I know
that my boss right now, my NASAboss, and he's happy to
(12:13):
potentially have anotherCanadian officer come down here
to fill that ops seat. And Ithink working as a CAPCOM is a
fantastic way to push yourselfin terms of capacity wherever
your background happens to be,whether it's a pilot or an
engineering officer or whatever.It's a great way to learn
(12:33):
exactly what you're capable ofin a moment. Because listening
to 15 different people talk inthe radio and then try and
figure out exactly what it isI'm supposed to be look
listening to and come up with acoherent message, that's a
pretty unique skill.
And I'm happy that I had alittle bit of that from flying
before. But, yeah, I'd love tosee more Canadians down here in
any capacity that we can getthem. It's such an amazing
opportunity to work with ourAmerican partners and do some
(12:56):
really cool work and getCanadians, not just to the ISS,
but maybe over to the moon atsome point too.
Bryan (13:02):
Yeah, that'd be amazing. So we've talked about all this
intense training you do to getqualified as a CAPCOM. You go
through all that. You're finallyqualified as an ISS CAPCOM. What
is your first real call to theISS like?
Erin (13:19):
It's interesting. So when you hit the the button, there's
something called a quindar. It'sthat beep that you hear. And I
was so excited to send my firsttransmission to space. I forgot
to wait.
You're supposed to give yourselflike a two, three pause. You hit
the button, you wait for thequindar. There's this weird
beep. And it's like all of thesevarious ground stations are
(13:39):
doing switching and then firingthings off to a satellite. So
you have to wait before youstart talking.
I didn't wait before I startedtalking. I was so excited. So
that first call was an absolutetrash fire, but I quickly
recovered. That's okay. I thinkit was Matt Dominic I was
speaking to.
He's back now. And, yeah, thatwas just remember being like, oh
my god. It's like the first timeI spoke on the radio as like a
(14:01):
baby pilot. I think I did thesame thing. I just blurted
everything out.
I'm starting to see a patternhere. I told you about my call
sign as well where I got reallyexcited on the radio. So maybe I
should have been better atanticipating this would have
been a problem. But it's reallycool to know that when you do
hit that button and you hear thebeep and you're speaking to the
astronauts, it's not just youand them that are listening.
(14:22):
It's everyone in the frontcontrol room.
It's all the subsystemspecialists that are working in
the back control rooms as well.We have other control centers
that are also key in maintainingeverything that we do on
station. So folks over in Japanat the Japanese Space
Exploration Agency, folks in theCSA at our control room will
also listen, Moscow, Munich. Andit's also public, I realized as
(14:47):
well. It's a little differentthan speaking on a tower
frequency or or terminalfrequency.
You have to know the frequencyand actually want to listen.
Bryan (14:55):
But Yeah. No kidding.
Erin (14:56):
It's a little different when, yeah, hundreds, maybe
thousands of people arelistening to you and you're very
apparently obvious Canadianaccent talking to astronauts on
a station. So it's something Ithink about every time I have
the opportunity to sit consoleand work that you are
representing everybody at NASAand all of our international
(15:18):
partners across the planet andworking with our representatives
up in space. It's pretty cool.It's a neat kinda thing to think
about if you kinda sit back.It's not just chatting on the
radio about a procedure.
It's very symbolic in a way, andit's it's neat to be a part of
it.
Bryan (15:33):
It's also just straight up amazing that you're sitting
there talking to somebody inspace. Like, how cool is that?
Erin (15:40):
Yeah. It's pretty cool. And there isn't as much of a
delay as you think there wouldbe. It's it's pretty good. Yeah.
It's it's super cool if you sitback and think about it. You're
like, my voice is beingtransmitted through gosh knows
how many thousands of kilometersof cable and then up to a
satellite back down and thenreverse the process and it comes
back to me. So it's, it's superneat. And that whole process of
(16:04):
managing comms, and theequipment, belongs to a flight
control position as well. Theground control person manages a
lot of
Bryan (16:11):
that Wow.
Erin (16:12):
To make sure that, you know, voice works and data
works. So it's pretty cool.
Bryan (16:15):
Yeah. That's awesome. Mhmm. So you've mentioned that
the astronauts are yourresponsibility as Capcom. What
does this mean for you in termsof your duties?
Erin (16:25):
Yeah. So kinda like I mentioned, you wanna make sure
that the schedule that you seein front of you makes sense,
that we're not seeing anyconflicts. One of the big things
we advocate for, and it's notthat everyone's trying to just
ram their schedule full and hasno consideration of the
astronauts. They certainly do.Everyone is very conscious of
their time and the amount ofeffort that it takes to do a lot
(16:45):
of that work.
But sometimes you'll seesomething just amiss in a
schedule. And usually that erroris corrected with several plan
reviews that happen before theactual plan of the day is
executed. People are planningstation activities, like, a year
in advance, and then it'sundergoing several reviews.
Bryan (17:01):
Okay.
Erin (17:01):
By the time I'm sitting on console, I usually look out six
days and then work backwardsfrom there as part of your job.
One of your console duties is tomake sure that schedule makes
sense. Like, if we have threedifferent people of the crew are
working on separate experiments,that's gonna be very busy on one
frequency. So maybe I'll do alittle comm plan and make sure
that if there's a payloadactivity that they're gonna work
(17:21):
with Huntsville on a differentfrequency so we can free up the
main frequency for other stuff.So you're doing that.
And then one of the big thingsyou're also keeping an eye on is
their exercise time. Soobviously being in zero G, as
your listeners may already beaware, is very hard on your
body. And one of the best waysto counteract the effects of
being in zero gravity is to makesure you're doing load bearing
(17:44):
exercise every day. And sothere's about two and a little
bit hours every day that theastronauts do some kind of
exercise. There's differenttypes of equipment on board.
There's a weighted treadmillkind of thing where you're like
bungee down to the tread,obviously, so you don't bounce
away. And then it's kind of likea stationary bicycle type
situation with extra resistancethat you strap yourself down to.
(18:04):
And as well, there's a machinethat can kinda do it's got like
a barbell kinda situation onpistons that can give you up to
600 pounds of resistance. Idon't know who's doing deadlifts
like that up there, but probablysomeone. But protecting that
time is really important forthem because they work on such
an insane schedule.
You wanna make sure you'reprotecting that time and not
(18:24):
eating into it. So if you noticethat an activity ahead of their
exercise is taking a little bitlonger, you might start talking
to the person who owns thatactivity and say, Hey, where's a
good place to stop? Because Iwant to give them a break. I
don't want them to run intotheir exercise time, no pun
intended. We have to give themthat section of time.
It's super important, not justfor their health, their physical
(18:45):
health, but their mental healthtoo. It's just a really good
break for them. So little thingslike that. And then sometimes
they'll have to send upprocedures that the astronauts
haven't seen before if somethingbreaks or it's a different
experiment or what have you. Andyou'll go through the procedure
with an astronaut brain and say,does this procedure make sense?
Because sometimes what theengineers think and what the
(19:05):
astronauts think is a little bitdifferent. And so you might make
some comments on the procedurelike, Hey, I don't know if I
were looking at it this way, Idon't know if that would make
sense to me. Is there anotherway you can word that? And you
send that back to the engineer.So there's a lot of things like
that.
And essentially, you're asked tothink like an astronaut when
you're at that console. So youare advocating for them as best
as you can and makingrecommendations sometimes to the
(19:28):
flight director. And sometimesthe flight director will ask you
like, hey, You know thisperson's preferences. Are they
gonna be okay with x, y, and ztoday? And you'll give them an
appropriate answer.
Bryan (19:37):
Okay. Yeah. So there's a lot to take on.
Erin (19:40):
Yeah.
Bryan (19:44):
Recently, you picked up NG 22 or the Northrop Grumman
twenty two ISS resupply leadCapcom assignment. Can you tell
us about this mission and whyyou were assigned to it?
Erin (19:54):
Yeah. I'm pretty sure I was assigned to this mission
because I happen to be Canadianand I am an absolute fan girl
when it comes to Canadian SpaceAgency's robotics. So everyone's
probably heard of the Canadarm.We have a bunch of other
robotics on station as well, butCanadians essentially pioneered
that type of technology onstation. And we have some folks
that are here permanently and anentire section of people that
(20:17):
fly down from the CSA to dorobotics missions.
We will use the arm and theother robotics on station, not
just to do extra vehicularactivities by putting an
astronaut on the end of the armand moving them to where they
need to go. But the arm can alsosort of inchworm its way across
station, which is pretty cool tohelp us do other types of
maintenance. It can move thingsaround for us, including Dexter,
(20:39):
which is kinda he looks likeDexter is a robot that has drive
arms and that kind of thing andcan do small, more dexterous
tasks that the arm can't to helpus do maintenance outside the
station without astronauts. Sothe arm, in a lot of ways helped
build station. It's anincredible technology that
Canadians I wish more Canadiansknew about how impressive this
(21:00):
technology was.
And one of the things the armdoes that is super important is
it helps us capture certaintypes of vehicles when they
approach station. So an uncrewedvehicle like the Northrop
Grumman resupply vehicle willtake a few thousand pounds of
supplies and science up tostation sometime this spring,
and it will stop at a certainpoint close to station, and then
(21:21):
the arm will capture it andbirth it to one of our airlocks.
Bryan (21:24):
Oh, wow.
Erin (21:24):
So we're talking about incredible tolerances,
essentially formation flying at17,000 miles an hour. And the
arm, you know, it's a prettylong device. We'll reach out,
capture the free flyer, bring itin and birth it, and allows us
to dock these vessels, or birththese vessels. It's pretty cool.
So because it involves a fairbit of robotics and I got to do
(21:46):
an amazing course in Montreal atthe CSA headquarters that taught
me how to manually capturevehicles and that kind of thing,
mostly so I know what theastronaut perspective is when
they're capturing a vehicle.
When they're up in the cupolalooking at if they can see it
and doing all of the capturingmanually, it's good to know what
(22:07):
the astronauts have gonethrough. A lot of our training
as a CAPCOM is essentially theground school version of
astronaut training so we knowwhat their perspectives are
like. And I was super keen onthis robotics course and a total
robotics fangirl that my boss islike, This Capcom mission should
probably go to the Canadian whowon't shut up about robotics. So
I'm pretty sure that's why theyhad me do that. So I'll go
(22:29):
through a couple simulationswith the NG team, the visiting
vehicle people, and the rest ofour control room, just to go
through any emergency scenariosthat might happen with a
visiting vehicle.
If we miss a capture orsomething happens with the
vehicle, we like to practicethat before it actually launches
and approaches station. SoCAPCOMs are involved in that
because you're very muchreporting back and forth to the
(22:52):
folks on station before theystart their robotics procedure
about the status of that vehicleand where it is. So that's part
of the job as a CAPCOM during abirthing scenario.
Bryan (23:02):
That's awesome. Is that like the first mission that
you've been assigned?
Erin (23:07):
Yeah. So most of the time as a Capcom, you will be
assigned some kind of mission, Isuppose. You'll be a lead. It's
just a way to spread out all ofthe the work we have to do. So
the guy that I did mySpaceflight Academy with,
another military officer fromthe Space Force, he's going to
be doing the Axiom four crewedmission.
So that's his CAPCOM lead job.So each of us got assigned
(23:29):
something relatively quickly,which is pretty cool. But I'm
just happy that I get to to workwith the Canadian robotics
folks. Well, I mean, there'sAmericans too. Don't get me
wrong.
It's just we developed thetechnology and I'm super excited
about it. So, yeah, I'm hopingI'll get one more probably have
time for one more Capcomassignment after NG twenty two.
Bryan (23:46):
Awesome. So can you share what a typical day might be like
when you are on the console asCapcom? How do you manage
communications and relay whatthe engineers are saying into
astronaut speak?
Erin (23:58):
It's a good question. So it depends on what shift you're
on. Generally, CAPCOMs willeither work the ship that's
aligned with the crew waking upuntil they're midday, that's
called orbit one, and then we'llhand over to the orbit two
CAPCOM, which is kind of middayuntil they're done their
workday. We don't normally staffa CAPCOM overnight when the
astronauts are sleeping becausewe're not talking to them. So
(24:20):
the flight director, ifsomething happens, would
probably call one of us in andthen manage the comms until we
get there.
So orbit one, orbit two, kind ofdepends. For some reason, I'm
not sure if it's because of04/27 and how often we worked at
night, but I tend to like Orbitone. So I'm showing up to the
control center at about 11:45 atnight, sometimes around
(24:42):
midnight. Setting up myconsoles, we have about five
screens that show us the healthof station and the health of all
of our comms equipment as well.And what frequencies are dialed
up where on station and a fewother things that we like to
keep track of.
So we essentially have similarto what you have in an aircraft,
the caution and warningannunciator. We have like a big
(25:03):
one for station. So I like tohave that one right in front of
my face in case somethinghappens. Kind of like a pilot,
you always wanna have a goodview of your caution and warning
panel. So I had that.
And then essentially you gothrough the plan for the day.
You make sure that everyone'sgoing to have enough calm assets
for what they're doing. Ifthere's a complicated procedure
I've not seen before, I'llprobably pull that up and see
(25:23):
how many times they might becalling down and what I need to
expect. If I'm going to needpermission for the astronauts to
continue, that I might have toprearrange that with the person
whose console is responsible forthat procedure. So to make sure
that they're aware too, Hey,when they're in step 15, that
step 18, they're going to calldown for permission to continue.
So I need to make sure that wehave, I don't know, the power
(25:47):
turned off to whatever it isthey're working on and safing is
in place and that kind of stuff.So you're going through your
day. And then just before theastronauts call down for their
morning planning conference, theflight director will pull
everybody in the room, all theflight controllers, and ask if
they have any points. So ifthere's any deltas from the
night before when they had theirreport to what they're reading
(26:07):
this morning, we like to addressthose because the commander
usually to know the health ofstation. And if anything's
changed overnight, they kind ofwant to know.
They're kind of like their ownversion of a ship's captain up
there. They want to know thehealth of their ship. So you'll
take note of that. Each consolewill kind of give you
information about what theirplan is for the day and what
might impact other consolepositions and how that might
(26:28):
impact the astronauts. I onlyreally I listen for the context,
but unless there's an impact tocrew, I'm not usually writing
down like turbo detail about it.
So if I hear that, Oh, hey,there's gonna be an interruption
on this calm frequency orwhatever, that's gonna interrupt
my plan for the day. So I mighttell the crew like, Hey, you
don't have access to thisfrequency. That's gonna kind of
(26:50):
change things a little bit. Soyou gather all that information
so the astronauts have reallygood context and then you just
kind of proceed with theschedule. So translating things
into astronaut speak isessentially they want to know
what they need to do as anoperator.
Some astronauts everyone'sdifferent. Some people want the
(27:10):
nitty gritty detail as to whyspecifically this very specific
thing didn't act the way that wewere expecting. And then some
astronauts are like, Okay, cool.What do I do with it? So it's
kind of getting to know whateach astronaut wants as well and
sometimes what the commanderwants.
So the flight director needs allof that extreme engineering
(27:30):
detail so that they can make anappropriate decision. But the
astronauts don't need all ofthat background stuff. They need
the high level context and theimpacts to them. So it's up to
me to kind of translate what I'mhearing happening in the flight
control room and give theastronauts enough context that
they're comfortable that theyknow what's happening, but not
so much detail that I'm takingup their day explaining things
(27:53):
that aren't really superapplicable to them in the moment
because they can't do anythingabout it. It's probably a ground
action that has to happen.
So that comes with time andcertain consoles are a little
easier to understand thanothers. There's a couple
consoles that are superelectrical engineering heavy,
and I find those ones a littlebit more difficult. I have to
spend a lot of extra timereading about that console or
(28:14):
contact that flight controlleron their own personal loop and
say, You just said this, what isthe follow on impact if you have
to do the thing that you'retalking about? Like talk to me
like I'm five because I don'tunderstand exactly what you're
saying. Other consoles a littlebit more, I'm a little bit more
comfortable with them.
So the biomedical engineeringgroup and the Oso flight
(28:38):
controllers that manage thingsthat get broken, they're more
like mechanical engineers. So Itend to have a little bit, I'm a
little bit more comfortable withthose types of conversations
when they get super technical.My weak spot, and I think a lot
of people's weak spot is withpower generation and the very
sophisticated comms equipment.When those engineers start
talking back and forth, I get alittle lost. So I have to very
(29:01):
much keep track of what's goingon and ask for extra context if
I need it.
And it's my job to make surethat I'm getting enough context
that the astronauts know what'sgoing on. So that's the
difficult part about this job isthose engineers are like ten
years or six years or five yearsto get to that position. They've
gone through the backroomsubspecialties to get there.
(29:23):
They're very well versed. AndI've been doing this for a year
And I have to know a little bitabout each of their stations so
I can give the astronauts goodcontext.
So it's a little bit difficult,but it does remind me of that
relationship sometimes you havewith your maintenance folks back
from a window squadron where Ican describe to you kinda high
level what I think is wrong, butyou're the expert. I just need
(29:44):
to know what to do with it rightnow. So it kind of reminds me of
that relationship a little bit.
Bryan (29:48):
Yeah. That's a great comparison. Like basically, as
an operator, you've got like awider but less deep breadth of
knowledge. Whereas, like, yoursubject matter experts, your
SMEs, have typically like a verymuch more narrow but extremely
deep breadth of knowledge ontopics.
Erin (30:07):
That's a really good way to describe it. And I'd I'd
probably say that's prettyaccurate. So it also comes with
time. Like I need to remindmyself that I've been here since
August of twenty twenty three.I'm not gonna be a station
expert, but I do study at hometo make sure that I can at least
maintain that shallower depth ofknowledge.
But it's enough that if I knowwhere my weaknesses are and I
(30:30):
can always reach out to theother flight directors. But you
have to be very precise withwhat you're transmitting up,
even though you're giving themcontext. Miss speaking on the
loops is very much not great.Precision is very important
because of what it is we'retrying to describe. And I often
can't see them and they can'tsee me.
So as much as I talk with myhands all the time and could be
(30:51):
pointing to a point on theirprocedure, that's not going to
help them. So you have to getvery good at explaining what you
mean and using correctterminology. So it's been a bit
of a learning curve, but that'swhat those simulations are for,
is to shake all of that out andto get you used to having to do
that quick translation and thenjumping in. If you don't
understand or something doesn'tmake sense that you're getting
(31:12):
that information right awaybecause the astronauts might be
waiting on critical context orinstructions during an emergency
in those simulations. So youwanna make sure that you have
that confidence to say, I didn'tcatch your last.
Say again, less complicated thistime.
Bryan (31:25):
Yeah. That makes sense. So that's kind of an in-depth
look at your shift as a Capcom.You do have three official job
titles. Can you give us just abroad look at what your week
looks like in Houston?
Erin (31:38):
Yeah. So Monday morning meetings, it's essentially an
all hands. So the astronauts arethere, all of our support staff
in the office, and it kinda setsa tone for the week. But my job
varies a little bit depending onwhat it is I need to be doing.
So I keep an eye on what myschedulers do, but they've been
there longer than me.
They're experts with that stuff.I just keep an eye on currencies
(31:58):
and qualifications. And ifanyone's coming up to a red line
with something like that, butmost of my week is in and out of
training meetings to make surethat we're lining up training
that makes sense for folks. Anda lot of, sometimes just fires
to put things out. But a lot ofmy week, the past little while
has been taken up withadditional training.
So just because I'm an opso andI deal with readiness reviews
(32:20):
and essentially writing con opsand stuff like that, I still do
a lot of training to make surethat my perspective on what the
astronauts are dealing with,especially in terms of their
training makes sense. So I'vebeen observing some of their
training to make sure that it'sfitting with our mandate to get
folks ready for the moon. Soactually on Monday, I head out
(32:41):
to do a field medical trainingcourse with the astronauts where
we do a five day rotation at ahospital up in Houston. And
that's essentially to give themhands on training and practical
skills with suturing and stuffand how we can use that to get
people ready for the moon wherethey might have to do more
complex medical proceduresbecause they're going to be days
(33:02):
away from assistance. They'regoing to have to be able to rely
on themselves.
It's a little easier. It's stillcomplicated, but it's a little
faster to evacuate someone fromstation if we had to. But from
the Moon, they're going to haveto be self sufficient. So how
does that field medical trainingfit into our bigger picture? I'm
heading over to Florida to talkto the folks about the
helicopters we're getting to seeand make sure that the training
that I'm developing for thatmakes sense for our larger
(33:24):
picture when it comes topotential manual control if we
need it landing on the moon.
So there's all those little tinythings that are kind of
impactful that all kind of addup throughout a week and you
attack them as best you canamongst your other stuff. And on
occasion, I'll hop intotraining. Like last week I was
on a lunar geology course tomake sure that I understood the
(33:45):
type of content our astronautswere getting and then it made
sense. And it was a superfantastic course. But a lot of
that feeds back into the othertraining we're doing too.
So are they getting enough fieldgeology time? Is there a way we
can add that into the astronautcandidate class this year that
makes more sense in terms of theflow and the extra information
that they're gonna have to know?So it all kind of It's like a
(34:06):
typical ops job in that there'sa million things happening all
the time, but all of them are inthe same vein and that we're
trying to make sure the trainingmakes the most sense for our
folks as we pivot back to theMoon. So I wish I could give you
an actual answer. It's differentevery week.
The only thing that's consistentis that I'm very busy. Yeah.
It's nice sometimes to take abreak and go sit on console or
(34:29):
go hang out with a bunch ofastronauts giving people
sutures. Like, that's gonna beinteresting too watching them do
that. But it's all in service tothe same thing as making sure
that our training makes sensefor the hard jobs that they have
to do and that we're buying downrisk by making sure that they
have appropriate training.
Yeah.
Bryan (34:45):
Yeah. Sounds super busy, but sounds awesome.
Erin (34:49):
Yeah.
Bryan (34:50):
You mentioned this a couple times. NASA is pivoting
back to the moon with theArtemis program. How will this
round of lunar explorationdiffer from previous missions?
Erin (35:00):
This one, we're using different technology. Right?
We've pretty much redesignedeverything from the capsule to
the spacesuits to the traversesthat they're doing on the
surface to the type ofinformation we're trying to
collect. And when we go back tothe moon and we land on it this
time, we're going to land in theSouth Pole. It's a place we
haven't been before.
It's different geology. Theterrain is more rugged. So we're
(35:23):
gonna be looking for differentanswers out of the geology
there. So the problem with theSouth Pole or one of the issues
they're gonna have to manage isillumination. So the South Pole
is a little bit more difficultto get solar power.
They're gonna have to move itaround. It's just the way the
things work in terms of shadowand that kind of stuff. And
because of the terrain they'reworking on, the suits are
(35:44):
different and astronauts arebeing trained right now in
different types of tools andthat kind of stuff. So the
mission is the same in that wewanna go to the moon and learn
as much as we can because thegeology of the moon is important
in telling us a story about theearth's formation, believe it or
not. So it's important to do,figure out if we can find some
(36:04):
water there.
So the mission's the same, likeI said, but how we're
approaching it's going to bedifferent just because of the
technology and we're doing itfifty years later. But how I fit
into this is just to make surethat the astronauts, because we
haven't done this in a while,there's lots of really smart
folks that have been here a lotlonger that are involved in
(36:24):
larger pieces of the specificplanning that they're doing. But
is there anything that I can doas the operations officer to
help manage that pivot and makesure that the training that
we're doing both helps them getready for the ISS as well as be
useful for our return to themoon as well? So it's finding
those efficiencies where I can.And some of those things
(36:46):
crossover, like learning how tofly helicopters as an astronaut,
we get a lot of questions aboutthat.
But the side by side nature ofbeing in a helicopter is very
much like being in a crewcapsule. The cognitive loading
is actually a little bitdifferent in terms of when
you're getting close to theground and you're landing visual
illusions, degraded visualenvironments with dust balls and
that kind of stuff. Yourphysical communication between
(37:09):
each other when you become tasksaturated with someone who
hasn't flown helicopters before,sometimes they just stop talking
to you because they don't hearanything anymore. They're so
task saturated. So finding waysto use these devices that we
have to get people ready forsome of the hardest things we've
ever done as a human race island people on another celestial
body.
(37:30):
How can we use the tools that wehave now to help not only for
the ISS mission, but for themoon as well? So we're
incorporating some things thatwere different than last time we
did this, and it's cool to be atiny, tiny, tiny part of it. I'm
not designing, like, all of thetraining plans. It's just the
stuff within my ops office forunassigned astronauts. We're
trying to make sure that itmakes sense for the next pivot,
(37:50):
and that's kind of my job.
Bryan (37:51):
That's awesome. Yeah. And do I have it right that this
time they're looking toactually, like, establish a base
on the moon?
Erin (37:58):
I think the the moon to Mars program, that's one of the
goals, I believe. I don'tremember, like, where on the
list of objectives that is, butwe'd like to prove that
technology on the moon becauseit's difficult to live somewhere
other than on this planet. Thestation, we know we can do it on
station, but setting up apermanent facility on the moon
is gonna be very challenging,but will help us build the base
(38:20):
of knowledge that we need inorder to do this on Mars. So I
think that's part of the overallkind of spectrum of things we're
doing there on the Moon to makesure we have the skills figured
out solid before we go millionsof kilometers away Yeah. To to
Mars.
Bryan (38:37):
The fifteenth anniversary Northern Lights Award Gala for
Canadian Women in Aviation washeld in Toronto on 10/05/2024,
and you were presented with theElsie McGill award in the
government category. Why do youthink you were presented with
this and what did it mean toyou?
Erin (38:51):
I was super surprised to have been nominated for that
award. When I was called by theorganizer that I was invited to
come up and receive the award, Iwas like, That's very nice. I
wonder who nominated me. And itturned out it was two different
groups of people, Josh Kutrickand some folks, and then an old
coworker of mine in one of myflights at 04:27 and some folks
(39:16):
that he knew. And it was nice tobe recognized, although I'm kind
of a more of a humble person.
I like to try and stay in thebackground a little bit. But I
think it was because of thisexplosion of duties and things
that I've taken on. And I dotake the responsibility and the
opportunity to represent Canadain a very unique way, both as a
(39:38):
CAPCOM and as a branch chief,deputy branch chief for
operations. I get to representCanada and use some of the best
training that I've ever receivedto help kind of inform some of
the training that we're doingdown here to send people back to
the moon, which is pretty cool.So I think it was just a
recognition of that.
All of this stuff is new forCanada and I'm hoping that we
(40:02):
can continue this work, but Ithink it was a great way to
maybe highlight that honestly,someone like me, as many
difficulties as I've hadthroughout my career and had to
kind of rejig and find new plansand all that kind of stuff that
you can still You still have alot to offer, even though you
might not be perfect the firsttime you try something that you
(40:25):
can rally all of your skills anddo some really cool stuff. So it
was nice to be recognized. Hugehonor. It makes me a little
teary, to be honest, to berecognized in a national forum
like that. But I hope it servesto prove to anyone that you can
really honestly reach for whatyou want to do if you put your
(40:47):
head head down and just justwork at stuff.
Bryan (40:50):
Yeah. What are some of the most important lessons you
have learned so far at NASA?
Erin (40:56):
Interesting question. Most important lessons. I think it's
to ask questions and just beconfident to apply your
knowledge. I think my mostimportant lesson, because it
still strikes me as odd that I'min this position that as a not
just as a CAPCOM, but also asthe deputy branch chief for crew
(41:20):
ops after not being at NASA verylong, is that if NASA thinks I
have the capacity to do thisjob, I should probably think
that I have the capacity to dothis job. So from a personal
sense, I think the mostimportant thing I've learned is
that it may have taken forever,like I'm 40 years old, but it
might finally becoming a littlebit more confident in myself.
(41:41):
And I've had the ultimate sortof external validation that NASA
thinks I'm competent to do someof the stuff that I'm doing, so
maybe I should as well. And Ithink that's probably my most
important personal lesson. Andthen in terms of a professional
lesson, even though I'm acaptain and I come from a
special forces background, avery small community, I've never
(42:03):
really worked in theconventional air force before,
People are excited to want tohelp when it comes to space
stuff. GRCC was excited. ThreeCFFTS was excited.
The CSA actually has beenexcited to get a little bit more
involved as well in areas thatthey haven't been involved in
because they have some randomcaptain that's willing to invite
them down to do stuff. So it'slike, you don't have to
(42:26):
necessarily stay in your littlebox if you're polite and you
have a good reason. You canreach outside of that and get
some really cool stuff done. Soit's to think, continue to think
outside the box, but also reachpast some of those traditional
barriers we sometimes just putin front of ourselves by talking
ourselves out of stuff to beginwith. And that probably applies
(42:47):
to my ops job here as well.
I've had a few ideas that Ithought, you know what?
Someone's just gonna say no tothis. I don't even think I
should bring it up. And then youbring it up and your boss is
like, you should run with that.And you're like, oh, okay.
So learning to trust yourselfthat you're there for a reason
and that you might actually haveideas that can benefit an
organization even like NASA as anew outsider. Those have been
(43:09):
some pretty cool lessons tolearn here.
Bryan (43:12):
I like what you said about the kind of the validation
of, hey, NASA thinks I can dothis. I should also think I can
do this. I think that'ssomething that pilots can't
well, and many people of manywalks of life can use I think
back to the the pilot world,let's say the first time you get
sent solo or upgrading toaircraft commander and you get
(43:35):
that stamp in your logbook, youknow, there's a whole group of
people. There's a whole bunchof, like, a whole system that is
saying, hey. You are qualifiedto do this.
Like, go forth and do this. Andreally, we should be believing
in ourselves as well once whenyou have that validation.
Erin (43:52):
Yeah. I agree. I just there's probably been enough
points across if we look at thearc of Aaron Edwards here from
getting my private pilot'slicense and the ship's team
diving qual and passing Marstraining and getting selected
for soft and blah blah blah blahblah. It's taken me a long time.
And usually I have to look backat those things to be like, Oh
yeah, I did that.
(44:14):
So the external validation thingis obviously we should all be
internally validated with whatwe do, but sometimes it takes
looking back over a history ofthe things that you've done to
to put it all together and say,no. You know what? Actually, at
this point in my life, I amcapable of some pretty cool
stuff. I should just probably gowith that. So it's an
(44:34):
interesting interesting thing todo when you look back at that
sometimes.
Bryan (44:38):
For sure. So what are your future plans after your
current posting at NASA iscomplete?
Erin (44:43):
That's a really good question. Honestly, I think my
my career so far has been metrying to do things that seemed
really interesting andchallenging. I haven't actually
had a career plan before. Sothis whole concept of trying to
figure out exactly where Ishould end up is kind of new for
me. I've just always just triedstuff and kinda wanted to see
(45:06):
where it would end up.
So I think it makes sense thatgiven the opportunity that I've
had, that this training and theinformation and what I've
learned here, we should find away to kind of plug it back into
Canadian military space. So myguess is I'll probably end up
somewhere within seven wingspace, that would make sense, or
back at four twenty seven flyingand also maybe working to
(45:30):
advance the space liaisonportfolio that we have out there
too. So I think that's probablythe best two places I could end
up again. I still fly now.Actually, go back every quarter,
very fortunate to stay current.
I think that's because the planhad been when I left, when I
left a little earlier than wenormally have our aircraft
commanders leave, that I wouldcome back and do another flying
(45:51):
tour. So I maintain a utilitycategory right now and it has
turned out to be very useful forthe work I'm doing down here.
But I think it would one ofthose two places makes the most
sense of trying to find a way tocombine those two things, but
there's a lot of stuff I'velearned down here I think could
be beneficial back in the airforce. And you know what? Think
(46:13):
I might still have one moreflying tour in me, we'll see.
But honestly, I'm happy to gowhere I'm gonna be best suited
for helping. I'm not too fussedabout where I get posted so long
as I'm able to to be usedeffectively in advancing our
missions.
Bryan (46:31):
Yeah. I mean, again, you know, that's the perfect
attitude. Right? Like, those arethe people who end up happy
wherever they end up.
Erin (46:38):
Absolutely. I think, like, Ottawa area would be nice, but
I'm honestly happy just to to becontributing how best I can. So
Mhmm. My guess is probably backto '47 or somewhere in the in
the space space world in Ottawa.
Bryan (46:52):
Okay. Why specifically should pilots consider a career
in aerospace and spaceexploration?
Erin (47:00):
I think it's a natural progression. Like, at some
point, those skills are gonna beneeded for more consistent
flights to low Earth orbit.Space is, I mean, aside from
being super cool, I think it isour next leap. We might not see
people fly into space regularlyin the military or anything like
that for decades, but it's adomain that literally touches
(47:22):
the aerospace domain. Space isabove the air.
They are one in the same. So Ithink it's important that maybe
we don't pursue careers in themnecessarily, but as a pilot, I
think you need to have a goodunderstanding how space affects
you. Whether you're military orcivilian, doesn't really matter.
But space, especially now, wementioned it a little bit
(47:44):
before, super important toeverything that we do. So if
you're a pilot, it's definitelyan area you should be aware of
at the very least.
It's important to your job.
Bryan (47:56):
Okay. So we're into our final set of questions. We
always try to ask thesequestions. What is something you
do to stay ready to do your manycomplex jobs?
Erin (48:06):
You know what? For me, it's usually been sports. I
think you need to have a breakfrom all of the insane stuff
you're doing, Whether you'relike me and you take on too many
jobs at NASA or you're a pilotor some other aerospace trade,
it's really easy when there's somuch work to do to get to dive
(48:26):
right in and wanna attackeverything all the time, but you
become less effective over timeif you're not physically ready
for that challenge. So prettymuch everywhere I've ever been
posted, I end up joining somekind of team. So for me, sports
as a break and sports as a meansto stay fit are kinda how I'm
able to maintain my output.
If I didn't play rugby and Iwasn't sort of dedicated to
(48:50):
running and lifting, I knowwhere I'd be. Probably
completely burnt out is myguess. But even back in
Petawawa, I was very consistentabout the climbing club. I
climbed a lot, I ran a lot, andthat was sort of a forced break.
And also for me, back at fourtwenty seven, I'm a relatively
small individual, maintaining areally high level of fitness was
(49:13):
important to me because of thenature of my job.
I had to work at a pretty highpercentage of my body weight
when I had all my stuff on and Iwanted to make sure I was still
effective. So, I mean, for me,every day is leg day. That
happened at 47. So I try andmaintain that as best I can
here. So that's, I think how I'mbest able to maintain my
(49:35):
effectiveness and being forcedby my friends and family
sometimes to take actual leave,not that kind of fake working
leave.
I think that's important too.You can't be effective over a
long period of time if you'rejust tired and burnt out.
Bryan (49:50):
Yeah. No. No matter how much you love the job, no matter
how much you enjoy what you'redoing, you gotta take a break.
Erin (49:55):
Yeah. For sure.
Bryan (49:58):
What are some essential skills and traits that make a
great Capcom?
Erin (50:02):
Good question. I'd say probably the ultimate listening
skills. You're listening to theastronauts. You're listening for
their tone, not just the words.You're listening to everything
that's happening, whether it'son their frequencies or over the
air, like flight director toflight director over the
console, or you're listening tomultiple different conversations
(50:22):
happening at one time.
I think that's important. Andalso a concept of understanding
that the job you have isextremely important. You might
be the person telling thestation that there is an
emergency and you have to beable to jump on that and
moderate your tone to indicateto them that there's something
going on that they really needto pay attention to. So I think
(50:43):
it's actually probably more thanthe technical skills that
everyone can learn a little bitmore easily. There's a lot of
soft skills involved ininterpersonal stuff.
So I think being humble,understanding that you are just
one person in a very importantteam, but you are an individual
that is important, but you arepart of a team and you have to
(51:05):
understand that. So betweenlistening skills and
interpersonal skills, I thinkthose are probably the most
important ones.
Bryan (51:11):
Okay. What advice would you give to young people who are
interested in careers inaerospace and space exploration?
Erin (51:19):
Just just do it. Find something within those sectors,
whether it's geology or testpiloting or engineering. Find
something that you really enjoythat you can get really good at.
And usually, you'll find fromthat, there is some direct line
into space. So I think thatwould probably be my best advice
(51:39):
is you want to be passionateabout the thing that you're
studying and hope that it cankind of get you into space
because space requires a lot ofpassion, but also a lot of
patience.
So the thing that you're doingor the sector that you've
involved yourself in within thatwhole space architecture, you
want to make sure that you enjoywhat you're doing. So be
passionate about what you'restudying.
Bryan (52:01):
So finally, I've got to ask a phrase you use often in
social media posts is ad Astranerds. What's the story behind
this?
Erin (52:11):
I'm surprised you caught that, and I probably have to
take it out of my signatureblock now. But, yeah, I like the
motto. I've always enjoyed thateven when I was a kid and in
grade eight when we had to learnLatin. I'm like, yeah, pathway
to the stars. And then obviouslythe or through adversity to the
stars and the RCF motto issimilar.
And I feel like in a lot ofways, I've been a kid that has
(52:35):
always wanted to go to space orbe involved in space and have
had my own adversities along theway. But if there's one thing
that stayed consistent throughthat entire time is the fact
that I am a giant nerd. Youcan't see all the Lego behind
me, but it's all space related.And I think just reminding
yourself of where you've comefrom and who you are is kind of
encapsulated in that littleslogan there at Astroneerds.
(53:01):
Yeah.
Because I think it's just becomemy byline at this point.
Bryan (53:04):
Yeah. I love it. That's awesome. And for what it's
worth, I totally connect as wellwith Perardo at Astra. The idea
of through adversity has alwaysreally spoken to me.
It's especially spoken to mesince I ended up with a mental
health injury and going throughmedical release and all that
kind of stuff. I just keep thatthat phrase in mind and it it
(53:26):
really speaks to me. So I loveit.
Erin (53:28):
Yeah. I totally agree.
Bryan (53:31):
Okay. Erin, this has been such an interesting
conversation. I really wannathank you for your time, but and
your insights, but also for yourhard work. Canadians are known
as hardworking and dependable atNASA, and you are obviously
keeping up with that tradition.So thank you so much, and thank
you for being here.
Erin (53:47):
Alright. Well, I appreciate the time. And you
know what I'm gonna say next.Right?
Bryan (53:51):
Yeah. Go for it.
Erin (53:53):
At Astra Nerds.
Bryan (53:56):
Okay. That wraps up our chat with captain Aaron Edwards
down in Houston working with theCanadian Space Agency and NASA.
For next week, we'll be taking abreak. There will be no episode
next week as we are on vacation.For the following week, we'll be
sitting down with lieutenantcolonel Francois Pasquale,
lieutenant colonel Luke Coates,and major Dan Fox for a special
(54:19):
on location interview we did inComox, BC for an in-depth
discussion on the c two ninetyfive Kingfisher.
Do you have any questions orcomments about anything you've
heard in this show? Would you orsomeone you know make a great
guest, or do you have a greatidea for a show? You can reach
out to us at thepilotprojectpodcast@Gmail.com or
on all social media at at podpilot project. And be sure to
(54:41):
check out that social media forlots of great videos of our RCAF
aircraft. As always, we'd liketo thank you for tuning in and
ask for your help with the bigthree.
That's like and follow us onsocial media, share with your
friends, and follow and rate usfive stars wherever you get your
podcasts. That's all for now.Thanks for listening. Keep the
blue side up. See you.
Intro/Outro (55:02):
Engineer, shut down all four. Shutting down all four
engines.
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