RCAF to Counter-Drug and Search & Rescue Missions in the Caribbean
What is it like to fly long-range patrol missions in the Royal Canadian Air Force (RCAF), face close calls in high-stakes operations, and then transition to counter-drug and Search and Rescue (SAR) missions in the Caribbean? How do Canadian military pilots prepare for this demanding work, and what challenges do they face operating in one of the busiest regions for international aviation operations?
In this episode, retired RCAF Lieutenant-Colonel Trevor Juby, now Chief Pilot with PAL Aerospace / Provincial Airlines in Curaçao, and retired RCAF Master Warrant Officer Pat Lalande, now a tactical coordinator and mission commander with PAL Aerospace, share their experiences. They discuss RCAF patrol missions, the skills and training needed for counter-narcotics aviation, and the realities of flying SAR operations in the Caribbean.
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Bryan (00:58):
Alright. We're ready for departure here at the pilot
project podcast, the best sourcefor stories and advice from RCAF
and mission aviation pilotsbrought to you by Sky's
Magazine. I'm your host, BrianMorrison. With me today is
Trevor Juby, a retired RCAFlieutenant colonel and current
base chief pilot with PowellAerospace in Curacao, and Pat
Lalonde, a retired RCAF masterwarrant officer and current
(01:20):
tactical coordinator and missioncommander with Powell Aerospace
in Curacao. Guys, welcome backto the show, and I'm really
looking forward to this.
Listeners can check out part oneto hear about Trevor and Pat's
early career and what led themto their early flying
experiences. Now for part two,we're going to focus on some of
their operational experiencesand start discussing their role
down with PAL Aerospace and theDutch Caribbean Coast Guard. So
(01:44):
we're gonna shift back to Patand talk about some of his
operational experiences in theRCAF. So Pat, we've said you
were unexpectedly switched to aposting at 407 Maritime Maritime
Patrol Squadron in Comox BC.What was life like on an
operational squadron for a newASOP and how did it compare to
your previous life in the army?
Pat (02:04):
You know, even looking back this far out, it was probably
the best time that I had was asa brand new guy arriving on
squadron. I made the move, Iarrived, I unpacked and there
was only two of us that were newsensor operators on the
squadron. So everything thathappened was literally take the
new guy with you, take the newguy with you. I only had three
(02:28):
flights on the squadron and thenit was like, yep, there's a crew
going to San Diego for a month.Pack your bags, you're going
with them.
Bryan (02:34):
Nice.
Pat (02:35):
Yeah, that was my first month on the squadron. I just
looked at my logbook and it wasin. I flew three times and then
it's like go to California for amonth and was spent a month
chasing submarines and flyingaround warships and and you
know, doing that that navalwarfare thing, it was great. And
when you got back from that, I'mstill the only new there's still
(02:56):
only two new guys. Yeah.
Okay. Crew five is going on thisexercise. So, yep, take the new
guy with you. They're like, oh,I'm going again. It's like it it
it would I spent a lot of timeaway from home, but it was
always new training opportunity,a new a new training opportunity
one after the other.
So that I I look back on it andthat time as a brand new, brand
new guy on the squadron wasgreat because everybody wanted
(03:18):
to take the new guy to learnstuff. So it was always one trip
after another, one trainingexercise after another. I'd say
even looking at it back now thatit was the best of time.
Bryan (03:31):
Four zero seven Squadron is known for getting to go to a
lot of amazing places forexercises. What was your
favorite destination and whatwas the biggest thing you
learned in those years with allthose great training
opportunities?
Pat (03:42):
So in those years when I was a brand new guy, we went a
lot of places. So my familydoesn't feel bad for me that I
went to Hawaii at least five orsix times a year, sometimes for
a month or two. So it'sdifficult to explain to family
(04:03):
members that, Oh, I don't wantto go to work. I have to go to
Hawaii one more time. So youdon't get a lot of sympathy, but
Hawaii was a regular place forfour or seven Squadron for
either things like Rimpak inJuly, or we went for two weeks
at a time sometimes for a U.
Submarine commander scores topractice ASW. But I also almost
(04:27):
went once a month to California,to San Diego. And out of all the
years that I spent in Comox, SanDiego was my favorite place to
go. It's probably my favoritecity in North America, but the
training there was always reallygood. There was a great base to
(04:47):
fly from.
There was always submarines totrain on. There was always
aircraft carriers and warshipsand complex exercises. You just
crammed so much into two weeksand it was always, you learned
new tactics. You learned how towork in broader air campaigns
and naval campaigns. It wasalways something new and new
(05:11):
place to experience.
And as I went back multipletimes, I knew where to go. I got
used to where to go, where toeat, where to stay. I absolutely
can't say anything bad aboutoperating out of anywhere in San
Diego as an Aurora guy.
Bryan (05:27):
Yeah, I did my checkride in San Diego and what an amazing
city. It's just like the weatheris great, the scenery is great,
flying out of North Island wasreally cool. Yeah. I I agree. I
don't have anything bad to sayabout San Diego.
Pat (05:41):
Yeah. It's it's the perfect place to to to be deployed to.
And the the training thathappens out of that base is just
second to none.
Bryan (05:52):
So you also took part in the effort to oust Gaddafi in OP
Mobile. Can you tell us aboutyour experiences there and what
was the mission of the Aurora?
Pat (06:00):
Yeah. So that was, that was in 2011 and I knew that two
things were coming to an end atthe time was my time on the high
readiness crew was within amonth or so to end. And I knew
that from talking to the careermanager that I was posted that
year as well. So my brain wason, okay, the time at the
(06:25):
squadron is winding down. Andthen all of sudden one day on a
Saturday morning, the phonerang.
I was the lead sensor operatorstill on the high readiness
crew. And the flight commandersaid, I need you to pack your
bags for probably fifty sixdays. You might be leaving
today. We don't know yet. If youdon't hear anything, come in
(06:49):
with your bags on Mondaymorning, call your guys.
Yeah. Okay. So I went throughthe evolution of calling the
other sensor operators on thecrew and explained to them that,
A, yes, I know it's early onSaturday. No, this is not a
joke. Pack your bags.
And nothing through the weekend.And then on Monday morning, did
(07:09):
us, we were told showed up withmy bags. And then it was the
massive effort of gettingthrough the DAG process and
before lunch because we wereplanning to take off and head
for Greenwood in the afternoon.
Trevor (07:24):
Wow. Was like,
Pat (07:25):
woah, this is fast.
Bryan (07:26):
You were supposed to DAG. What does DAG stand for again?
Can you remember?
Pat (07:30):
Departure Assistance Group, I think it was.
Bryan (07:33):
Basically for the listeners, it is a huge
checklist that you need to getsigned off from all the various
places on base. Basicallysaying, yes, this person is
ready to deploy.
Pat (07:43):
Yeah. So we went through that process, loaded the
airplane with everyone,everybody's luggage, all the
mission equipment that we weregonna take with us. And, we left
for Greenwood and, arrived thatnight. And then the next morning
it was like, the deploymentmight be canceled. Don't get
your hopes up.
(08:06):
An election was called. So wethought the government's not
gonna do anything now and wentto went to bed. And then, the
next morning knocking on my dooris our tech nav, Kurt Luneberg
knocking on the door says, Pat,I know you're Let me know if
you're awake enough to have aconversation. So I said, yeah,
(08:27):
it goes, we're leaving likeright now.
Bryan (08:29):
Okay.
Pat (08:31):
So, we went through the evolution of reloading the
airplane and getting going and,no destination in mind. We were
told take off, head to the Eastand we'll call you to tell you
what base or what country youneed to land in.
Bryan (08:48):
That's crazy. Man, that must have been fairly stressful
for the crew commander.
Pat (08:55):
Oh, yeah. Yeah. You can't can't really plan for anything.
And then of course we had we hadnothing at the other end. Derek
Hock was the was major and hewas detachment commander at the
time came with came with ourcrew.
And eventually it was decided wewere going to Sigonella in
Sicily, which is great becauseit's a familiar base to the
(09:19):
Aurora fleet. We went onexercise there a couple of times
a year. So we ended up there andthe typical, you know, RotoZero
things. We landed and it waslike, a place to stay, find some
cars, everything from scratch.So that's what I love about
(09:39):
RotoZero is the lines haven'tbeen drawn for you yet.
So you gotta figure it out. Youget to set it all up. So it was
a really exciting time to set upa brand new operation from
scratch. And then of course,start operational flying almost
immediately. So doing setup lifeand fly your missions at the
(10:01):
same time.
It was an exciting time and itwas very challenging for
everybody involved.
Bryan (10:06):
And what was the mission at that time for the Aurora?
Pat (10:09):
So for us at the beginning, it was embargo enforcement on
weapons coming in. So our firstfew missions were sort of parked
in a box over to Mediterranean,looking for suspicious vessels,
bringing in weapons into Libya.But that did not last very long.
(10:29):
I think we only did two of thosemissions before the focus became
entirely on the war on land. Sowe would hang out just off the
shore with sensors andessentially look for activity to
report back with intelligence onwhat was happening on the ground
(10:51):
in Libya.
And that also quickly morphedinto now we were cooperating
with allied assets, looking fortargets for the fighters to
strike. It was very dynamic.Thankfully at the time we had
already been practicing andtraining the overland mission
(11:13):
during exercises for the lasttwo, three years. But it was a
lot of developing procedures onthe fly because we hadn't
practiced all of these things.The situation on the ground was
sometimes very confusing.
So again, it was very excitingbecause we had to basically
invent new procedures and newways of doing things as we were
(11:36):
doing them and responding to asituation on the ground that
wasn't always clear. So it wasabout as challenging as it could
get at the time for for flyingin the LRP fleet.
Bryan (11:46):
Yeah. I I sort of had a similar experience doing
Rotozero in Kuwait over Iraq.It's exciting and you're kind
of, like you said, you're notyou're not making it up as you
go, but, like, there is acertain amount of of figuring
things out as you as you goalong and it is an exciting
time. Did you witness or takepart in anything exciting or was
(12:06):
it a lot of long quiet patrols?
Pat (12:09):
It's the LRP fleet, so there's always 90% boredom, and
interrupted by 10% of of sheerterror.
Bryan (12:17):
Yeah.
Pat (12:18):
So the the 10% were always fun. You know, I I remember
being tasked on a mission and wewere looking for mobile Scud
launchers. And as a teenager, Igrew up glued to watching CNN
during the Gulf War. And I'mlike, all of a sudden, I'm
looking for what Scud missiles?I'm sorry, like what year is
(12:38):
this?
And following tanks andcoordinating strikes by Canadian
F-18s was something that wasnew. We had never really trained
for that, but it was exciting towatch, not just watch, but be in
(12:59):
the middle of an actual air warand court it, know, having to
pay attention all of sudden tothings like the air tasking
orders and what AWACS are weworking with today.
Bryan (13:12):
And for the listeners, AWACS is airborne warning and
control system. It's basicallythe airplane you see with a
giant radar sitting on its back,and it essentially works as an
airborne air traffic controlleras well as threat detection and
a number of other functions.
Pat (13:27):
What ships are available in in the area, it's it was an
actual full spectrum operationand professionally it was like,
oh, this is what it's supposedto be like. It it was really,
really good.
Bryan (13:39):
That's awesome. So you were whisked away to Ottawa for
a ground job, but as pertradition in your career, you
were quickly posted back to fourzero seven Squadron as ASOP
training officer, ASOP standardsofficer, and senior ASOP where
you reached the rank of masterwarrant officer. During this
tour, you deployed to OpImpactfor nine months and flew 31
missions while holding a fulltime ground job. For a lot of us
(14:02):
in the Aurora community, thistime period was very
challenging. How was it for you?
Pat (14:08):
About as challenging as it would have been for everyone
because everything of course wasat the last minute. I had just
come off, as you mentioned, ashort posting in Ottawa, which
was another, as soon as Iunpacked, the career manager
tells me turn around and goback. Took job back at four zero
(14:30):
seven Squadron and train newpeople. And then all of a
sudden, one day the stuff wasstarting to boil over in Iraq
with ISIS. And I remember beingin the ops lounge watching TV
when the government announced,okay, we're sending jets, we're
sending refuelers and we're alsosending long range patrol
(14:53):
aircraft.
And I looked at my boss and hesaid, go to clothing stores, get
some tan colored gear and packyour bags. And I'm like, when?
Oh, like now. Go to clothingstores immediately. A mouse
panic service challengingbecause I a single parent at the
time.
So I had to figure that out.Essentially, this was on a
(15:17):
Wednesday, I deployed on theweekends and so I had to quickly
make family arrangements anddeploy to something we didn't
know. Like before the crewsarrived, such as yourself to the
base in Kuwait. When we gotthere, I got off the C-seventeen
(15:41):
and all we had was an ATCOtrailer that had previously been
on fire.
Bryan (15:46):
Oh my gosh.
Pat (15:46):
And yeah, exactly. And if you knew where to look, you
could see the remnants of thefire that had been in there. And
it was just me, Alex Yignac andRay Townsend and it was like,
okay, you need to set up a fullyfunctional long range patrol
detachment here with this andthe airplanes arriving in a few
(16:07):
days.
Bryan (16:08):
That's crazy.
Pat (16:09):
Yeah, so we had to tactically acquire a lot of
things from vehicles formaintenance to haul parts to
beds for the crews to sleep in.And there was a lot of
competition for real estatebecause you also had a Hercules
detachment showing up. You hadthe refueling jets, the air
(16:30):
buses that were coming, all thesupport for the entire air task
force and the joint task force,everybody was arriving at the
same time. So it was a lot of,we worked a lot of twenty hour
days to create a flying unit outof nothing.
Bryan (16:48):
That's crazy. And just from the perspective of the
people who showed up with thingsbeing set up by you guys, you
guys did a great job because wehad great accommodations. We had
little, you know, we were fourto a room at first, which was a
little tight with the gear andeverything, but that quickly
improved. And and honestly, anyanyone who's ever been in the
army is laughing at me right nowfor complaining about that. We
(17:11):
had, you know, a hard sidedshelter with air conditioning
and blackout.
Like the windows were boardedover so it was blackout and you
could sleep at any time duringthe day. Like you guys did a
great job.
Pat (17:22):
Thanks. It was a lot of work and a lot of negotiation
with people to make it happen,which is great because I ran
into so many people that I knewthat I didn't even know were
deployed. I'd be walking down tosome random office like
transport. Hey, we used to worktogether and blah, blah, blah.
And name whatever base or unit.
(17:46):
And it'd be like, hey, what doyou need? I really need a pickup
truck for my maintenance guys.Oh, sure. Just by the sheer
weight of relationships that youhad built over the years, it was
really, it helped a lot to makeit happen and it wasn't always
perfect. And there wassituations where it was a lot of
times I had to explain to thecrews coming in and like, trust
(18:07):
me, sign here.
I know it sounds bad, but it'sgonna be it. The fix is in. Just
trust me.
Bryan (18:13):
I remember that.
Pat (18:14):
Take a leap of faith. Yeah. I wouldn't be surprised because
I had that you'd remember that.I had to tell people, trust me,
it'll be fixed. Just sign apaper.
Bryan (18:23):
Yeah. What was the biggest thing you learned during
this tour in Kuwait and flyingover Iraq?
Pat (18:31):
Training works. Trust everything that you've been,
trained to do because even whenyou're in a situation that is
outside of what you're trained,your training will guide you to
the answer. As the operationsguy, it always worked for me. I
(18:51):
was always able to figure outwhat to do simply because of the
training that I had. So trainingworks.
It does what it's supposed todo. And as long as you're
willing to put in the work andthe effort. And I learned that
everybody wants to do the rightthing. It's just sometimes they
(19:11):
don't know how. So if you Team,teamwork makes the dream work,
they say.
And, it was never more obvious,than when I went to Kuwait.
Bryan (19:21):
Yeah, for sure. So, Trevor, let's take some time to
talk about your operationalexperiences in the RCAF. Can you
describe some highlights fromyour early years flying
operationally on the Aurora?
Trevor (19:33):
Yeah. Okay. So the Aurora, four zero seven
Squadron, great squadron. I didfive years there until about,
04/00/2008. Reached maritimepatrol crew commander, unit ICP,
PSTO roles as pilot standardstraining officer.
(19:54):
We had, of course, all the WestCoast deployments, which I know
some of the guys at Greenwood attimes were jealous of.
Bryan (20:00):
For
Trevor (20:01):
sure. I've been to Hawaii more times than I can
count, five, six times. It kindabecame a joke. It was like, oh,
we're going to Hawaii again. SanDiego, obviously, quite a lot,
down there on exercise.
Also got a chance to go over toKinloss, Scotland, which was a
(20:21):
great time. Stayed at the AltonBeran Hotel. I had a pub in the
basement. Some really goodmemories there. Shamia for Druff
Net Patrols, and then, westarted obviously into the
overland role.
So we a lot of stuff inWainwright, a lot of stuff in
Palm Springs, a lot of northerndeployments as well. Actually,
(20:42):
one of the highlights I canremember, was getting a chance
to return to Whitehorse with theAurora for the, Sourdough Air
Show. Many of the militarymembers listening will know the
Sourdough Air Show.
Bryan (20:54):
That must have felt like a pretty cool full circle
moment.
Trevor (20:58):
Yeah. That was that was really that was really cool.
And, you know, I I had a chanceto bring the the air cadets out,
give them a tour of the,aircraft. And, that was really
cool. Full circle, you know,circle of life type of thing.
Of course, it's it brings backmemories to the Sunday party at
(21:18):
Jack Kings Coats place. He justpassed away, actually recently.
That was a that was such apopular air show that I remember
during the summertime, my dadand I had to go over to Jack's
place and help reinforce hisback deck because so many people
would come outside and stand onit that, it started to collapse.
(21:40):
So I went over it and reinforcedit, during the summer. Cold air
show, static air show.
I mean, I remember my, APU onthe Aurora froze. We had to get
a, Perman Nelson, cold hot airon it to start it up. But, yeah,
good memories of flying theAurora and, you know, really the
(22:00):
first, the first big aircraftthat I flew that I realized you
can reach out and touch anywherein the world. Yeah. Global
deployable capability, which,which kinda, you know, it it's
something I've remembered for mywhole career.
Bryan (22:16):
Yeah. It's it really is an awesome, super capable, super
flexible aircraft and it's onits way out. The p eight will be
replacing it in the next five toten years. We've already got
crews training on them, but,it'll be sad to see the P3s kind
of fade into the mist.
Trevor (22:33):
Yeah. Beautiful aircraft. Loved it.
Bryan (22:35):
So something that was new at the time, which now the
Aurora does extensively, isoverland intelligence
surveillance reconnaissance orISR work, which we talked a
little bit about with Pat. Youwere around when the MX 20
camera first came on board. Howdid this tool take the Aurora
from a sub hunter into overlandtactics?
Trevor (22:54):
Yeah. Suddenly, weren't over water anymore. We weren't
due regard. We were, we wereoverland in different airspace,
you know, usually high level toensure covert status. And we
were learning how to use that MX20.
You know, I can remember thegrowing pains with the ASOPs,
and you remember this path, youknow, how you had to how you had
(23:16):
to input the elevation, of thetarget you were looking at
because, obviously, the earth isnot one level, and depending on
the elevation, you could belooking in the wrong spot. All
those growing pains happened, aswe've learned. And Wainwright
became a location we'd frequentquite a lot for exercises
(23:38):
because it was close enough thatwe could do it in a hop off in a
mocks. We'd also deploy thereand do exercises. Of course, we
did a lot in The U S.
Yeah. I deployed to Cold Lake,staying in the motel there
beside the Cold Lake, theinfamous bar. I don't know what
it's named now. Flying over landmissions brings back some good
(23:59):
memories.
Bryan (24:01):
A really cool opportunity came your way, and you ended up
flying the NATO AWACS e three aBoeing seven zero seven. Can you
tell us how that came about andwhat your experiences were like
on that aircraft?
Trevor (24:12):
Yeah. So that's a that's a good story, actually. Right
place, right time in themilitary is a lot of the reasons
you go places. Right? Pat's gotexamples.
I've got so many examplesthrough my career, just right
place, right time. So, it's02/2008. I'm doing well at four
(24:33):
zero seven squadron, lovingComox, loving the job. Crew
commander in the pilot poolsystem, that was back when we
went to the pool system. We wentaway from the crews for a while,
because we're we're short.
We're losing guys to airlines.So there was a pilot pool, a
flight engineer pool, an Aesoppool. You just pick from the
pool to to fly. So I'm in thepilot pool, the pilot pit as we
(24:56):
called it on a Friday. It's anoffice day and, really, I'm just
sitting there waiting for themess to open in Comox.
And I'm waiting to go over tothe snake pit. And, Comox is one
of those places on a Fridayafternoon if the weather is
nice, there's not a lot ofpeople around squatter. Yeah.
It's just nothing to do. So ifyou can believe it, you know,
(25:17):
this is before I'm dating myselfhere.
This before really cell phoneswere big where you could sit
there and surf the nets andthere's no magazines laying
around, no flight safetymagazines to read. So I
literally had my AOIs open in mylap because I was looking at
something that I had thoughtabout.
Bryan (25:32):
And for the listeners, AOIs are aircraft operating
instructions that basicallydescribes all the systems and
how to operate the aircraft.
Trevor (25:39):
And the seal walked in. Talk about timing, right? Mike
Hogan. And, I was the only guyin there and and he's like,
Joobie, what are you doing inhere on a Friday afternoon? You
know?
And I'm like, I'm doing a littlestudying, sir. And so that
started the conversation andhe's like, well, I got a
problem. I need a pilot to go toGermany on the AWACS. It's four
(26:04):
zero seven squadron's turn, andI don't want someone that will
embarrass the family. So hesaid, are you interested?
And, you know, at the time I wasapproaching posting season, one
of my instructors in Boucher hadmoved to snowbirds and during
spring training, as you know,snowbirds do spring training in
(26:24):
Comox. And the year passed, hehad come out and give me a
chance to go with a practiceshow with him. Man, I love I
love formation flying for MooseJaw. Love the snowbirds and
possibility to be a Canadiansymbol would have been an
amazing experience. So I had akind of expressed interest in
snowbirds or considered throwingmy hat in the ring for a tryout.
(26:47):
It's a couple of ex snowbirds on04/2007. They'd start giving me
some advice. And then bothPSDOs, the status of training
officers in Greenwood, put theirreleases in, and they went to
WestJet. And so, you know, youstart to hear these posting
whispers about Greenwood, and itwas looking more and more likely
(27:07):
for him. And now I get thisFriday conversation with the
CEO.
Hey. Do you wanna go out can? Doyou wanna go to GK? So suffice
to say, had a quick conversationthat weekend with my, my wife,
and, we were posted over we wentto Germany. What what an amazing
(27:27):
opportunity.
Bryan (27:28):
You mentioned GK, that's Geile Kirschen in Germany.
Right?
Trevor (27:32):
Everyone's calls it GK because it's such a mouthful,
but Geilekirchen, Germany wherethe NATO, bases where they have
the, NATO AWACS squadron space.Just what that was one of the
highlights of my career, youknow, it's going over there, the
posting, because everyone thatgoes over there, they get posted
in a certain slots. So I knewthat I was going over, for two
(27:54):
years in the operationalsquadron, and then I'd be two
years in the training squad. Andthat was also really exciting to
eventually get a chance to be aninstructor there. And the first
two years, was, it was, youknow, as you hear these places
around the world, a flying club,it was training were deployed
(28:15):
all around Europe.
I reached aircraft captainstatus, instructor, and
eventually evaluator status onthe jet. Had forward operating
bases. So so NATO has forwardoperating bases in, Trapani,
Italy, in Orland, Norway, inKonya, Turkey, Pravesa, Greece.
(28:41):
And all over the place, we flew.I mean, Berlin air show, the
Slovakia air show, which I neverthought I'd go to Slovakia for
an air show, but we were one ofthe most popular chests to
arrive.
And then, of course, after twoyears, we started to get into
the wartime environment. SoLibya kicked off, and I deployed
(29:05):
to Libya three times. We were,job in in Libya was to enforce
the no fly zone, and we were oneof the first high value assets
to move overland, which wasalways something that was made
you pay attention because youwere assuming that all the,
(29:26):
surface to air threats wereeliminated. One really cool
actually story, I'll keep itsomewhat unclass, was that,
nearing the end of the conflict,it was our weapons controllers
in the back that werecontrolling the f sixteens that
bombed Gaddafi's compound as hewas trying to escape the city,
(29:49):
which eventually led to this,number three.
Bryan (29:52):
Crazy.
Trevor (29:52):
So it was was cool to see that, come to an end and for
us to be part of it.
Bryan (29:59):
Yeah. That's wild. That's a that's a piece of history for
sure.
Trevor (30:03):
Yeah.
Bryan (30:05):
So Canada is looking at acquiring airborne early warning
aircraft, potentially the eseven a Wedgetail among a few
options. Regardless of whichaircraft is chosen, what will it
take to stand up thiscapability, and why do you think
it's important?
Trevor (30:18):
Yeah. Okay. So we've seen the we talked about it a
little bit earlier. We've seenthe prime minister's latest
pledge to hit the 5%, spendingby 2035. So 3.5 on defense and
point five on infrastructure.
So what will it take to set itup? We have the subject matter
knowledge in the RCF right nowto stand this capability up.
(30:40):
Some of the smartest people Iknow are Royal Canadian Air
Force weapons controllers. Arethey are next level. I think
their trade actually has moreoutcan positions than any other
trades combined.
I joke about because when I talkwith the, guys and gals that do
that, they're they seem likethey're always, outcan. Yeah.
(31:02):
And the pilot knowledge will bethere. This is a jet. You know,
seven thirty seven is somethingthat we will be familiar with.
There's many of us that haveserved that are have Boeing
experience. But, you know, as wemove to the p eight, you'll see
that, the experience will bethere, especially with the air
(31:23):
to air refueling knowledge thatwill only increase with the p
eight, which is from my timewith the AWACS is some of the
most challenging but rewardingflying I've ever done is taking
gas from another large aircraftin a in a tanker truck. And that
guys and gals will just getbetter at that as we go. And and
(31:45):
why? You know, why do we why dowe think it's important?
Well, an airborne early warningaircraft, it's only gonna
augment what the RCAF leadershiphas already put in motion. And
this is gonna be another pieceof this integrated multilayer
ISR sensor approach to toCanada's coastlines, Northeast
and west. And I think it's asuper exciting capability that's
(32:09):
coming down the pipe and what agreat time to be in the RCAF.
Bryan (32:13):
Yeah. We've got a lot of new capabilities that are gonna
be stood up. I think while it'sgonna be challenging from a
personnel perspective in termsof just personnel levels, the
staffing levels, I think there'sso many exciting opportunities
coming up with these newaircraft that honestly, I think
I'm a little jealous of anyonewho's joining, you know, in the
(32:35):
next like, now and in the nextfive years
Trevor (32:38):
Yeah. Totally.
Bryan (32:38):
With all the stuff that's coming online. It's gonna be
it's gonna be crazy.
Trevor (32:42):
Yeah. Agree.
Bryan (32:45):
So you finished your time in the RCAF as a lieutenant
colonel, and your billet as a COwas at seventeen Wing Operations
Support Squadron or OSS. Duringthis time, you were also able to
augment four zero two squadronas a dash eight pilot, which was
a huge opportunity. What was thebiggest challenge you faced at
that time, particularly withbalancing your CO duties while
maintaining a flying category?
Trevor (33:07):
Okay. So the CO CO of OSS, it's a busy, job. Any of
the OSS COs across any of thewings will understand when I say
this. And this was this was kindof the first time that they were
combining wing ops, you know,wing tests versus wing
readiness, military police, youknow, FOL, for the hornet
(33:30):
commissioners. And and really,he just became an overall
problem solver.
So the the wing commander at thetime was Andy Cook, and he is a
pilot's pilot. And he wasactually flying time to time
with the Herc Squadron inWinnipeg. And he very much
believed to keep him flying as apilot in higher ranks was
important. You know, it allowedyou not only to get the much
(33:53):
needed morale boost foryourself, you know, working,
what is predominantly a groundjob. It gives you that little
bit of mental health to goflying, But it also gave a
chance to see the wing at theoperational level.
And seeing the wing in itsoperating areas is different if
you're in wing ops on the groundversus actually in the aircraft.
(34:16):
Four zero four zero two, theyhave some amazing experience
with that squadron, some really,really experienced pilots. And I
was fortunate to get a chance tofly and learn from them and
augment them. And, yeah, I was Iwas able to successfully balance
the CO duties with the with theflying cat. You know, careful
selection of flights thatbecame, very good friends with
(34:37):
the scheduler.
And, you know, in the nine busydays, and you could pick them
pick them out as you knew, yourschedule. And, usually, you're
pretty safe on a on a Tuesday ora Wednesday, but you knew that,
usually Mondays and Fridays wereyour busy days as you assess
duties. And then I had a veryconfident, chief, and I had a
(35:01):
very, very confident DCO. Andthey were able to take some of
the load when I'd be up flying.
Bryan (35:08):
It's great to hear that you were able to keep that
flying going as a CO. It's notsomething everybody gets to do,
although it does seem to bebecoming more common again from
like the interviews I've donerecently. But that's great that
you were able to do that. Andobviously, like you said, you
gave credit to your chief andthat's a huge piece of the
puzzle, right, is the supportfrom your NCMs and your senior
(35:29):
NCOs and the military runs onthem, right?
Trevor (35:33):
Exactly. And there's very much a, I guess, angle to
this that's, street credit,right? You you need to
understand the operation fromits most basic tactical level if
you're gonna command at thetactical and operational levels.
Yeah. So Yeah.
(35:53):
I think it's important that youget your hand in it and you
understand what your what yourtroops are are doing from
grassroots level.
Bryan (36:02):
For sure.
Trevor (36:02):
And it it is fun. I mean, pilots pilots wanna fly.
Right?
Bryan (36:05):
Yeah, absolutely. This is a story for both of you guys.
Apparently you shared theexperience of having a near
miss. Can you both tell us aboutthat?
Trevor (36:16):
Yeah, for sure. How about I just lay out the,
groundwork and you can add inAbsolutely. Behind it. Yeah. So
I I definitely used up one ofmy, nine lives that day for
sure.
We're in Palm Springs. We'redoing, overland training, with
the Marines headed to Iraq.We're in the, the range acting
(36:39):
as covert aircraft. It's dusk.So, it's on the way to darkness,
but just not there.
And we have a thunderstormthat's building behind us,
masking us, pushing us closerand closer to the edge of the
range, but we're still insidethe range. Two US Hornets edge
(36:59):
of the range, not on comms, notchecking into range control, and
came as close as I want to seeanother aircraft that I'm not in
formation. Wow. Over to you,Pat.
Pat (37:12):
Yeah. So we're just on the edge of the day where where
we're gonna turn around. And, ofcourse, the the the the
confusion about what happenedand where did these guys come
from and discussions internallyto the crew and externally with
range control of these peopleare. And it ended up being a bit
(37:34):
of a butting heads conflict inbetween the aircraft captain and
the tactical coordinator in theback and sort of me in the
middle because I had just goneto the cockpit to figure out
what happened. And I've seen oneof the pilots was like, looked
like he'd seen a ghost.
Wasn't wasn't Trevor. It's seena ghost. Taknav in the back is
(37:58):
mad because now there's thisdifference of opinion. I'm just
conflict is never good. So wedid the right thing.
We went home. Well, I say homebut we went back to Palm Springs
to talk about what happenedbecause it's the old saying,
(38:18):
it's better to be on the groundwishing you were flying than
being flying wishing you were onthe ground. But it was my first
real exposure to that level ofdisagreement between two layers
of command.
Trevor (38:29):
In the end, it's a, you know, it still uses it Aurora
CRM example of how things can,the Swiss cheese can line up?
Bryan (38:39):
This requires a little explanation for the listeners.
CRM is crew resource managementand is basically the
interactions amongst the crewand how well they're working
together. The Swiss cheesecomment is basically if you
imagine layers of Swiss cheesewith holes in it, each layer
represents a layer between youand risk and the risk getting
through and becoming anincident. And we kind of say the
(39:00):
Swiss cheese is lining up whenall the holes start to feel like
they're lining up and there's anincreased level of risk of
something bad happening.
Trevor (39:07):
And we we definitely got lucky that night. And Pat and I
still finally talk talk aboutthe conversation with the taco
at the back.
Bryan (39:17):
How close would you say you guys were to the the f
eighteens?
Trevor (39:21):
I saw them as they approached, but I wasn't flying.
My first officer was flying in aleft hand bank, I saw them
pushed pushed the control yokeforward. I had no time to say
anything other than brace. Andwe did miss them, but I don't
know. I think back to that dayand I, I think it it would have
(39:43):
been different if I hadn't havetaken some action for sure.
Bryan (39:46):
Close close enough that you said brace. That's crazy.
Trevor (39:49):
Yeah. We were so close that we could, you know, you
could literally see the, thepilots in their cockpits.
Bryan (39:56):
That's crazy. That's wild. So let's talk about how
you guys started working withPowell. So for both of you, what
road led to work with Powell andparticularly to take on the
mission of counter narcotics?
Pat (40:09):
Okay, so for me, like I was familiar with Powell and that
the company existed because theyhad an operation in Comox
working a contract for theCanadian Department of Fisheries
and Oceans. So I had heard ofthem and I knew people that
worked there, but I wasn't readyfor leaving the military or
anything like that and Icertainly wasn't eligible for
(40:32):
pension. So they're sort of apension prisoner kind of thing.
But I was working the projectoffice in Ottawa for the fixed
wing search and rescue programthat led to the Kingfisher and
sort of working a desk kitchento go back flying. But as a
(40:54):
master warrant officer in theair force, it wasn't really
gonna be a reality.
And then one day I got a messagefrom a former colleague and
friend of mine who had justtaken a job in Curacao as a
sensor operator. And the messagewas short. It just said, you
need to send your resume to myboss right now. So, okay. Leap
(41:22):
with both feet before lookingand I did that.
And in the span of a weekendthat led to informal talks, to a
formal interview, to a job offerinside of forty eight hours.
That's how I ended up making theswitch from a ground job in the
air force to a flying job withPowell down here in The
(41:44):
Caribbean.
Bryan (41:45):
Wow, that moved fast,
Pat (41:47):
Very, very fast. All of a sudden it's like, yep, okay,
we're making you an offer, buthere's the deal, we need an
answer by Monday morning firstthing. Wow. The need was
immediate and me and my wifedidn't have a whole lot of time
to think about it, but we had tosit through the weekend and
anxious it out. Do we want tomove to a whole other country
(42:09):
and do it inside the next month?
It was a whirlwind, it had to bedecided fast but that's exactly
what we did. The last five yearsare history now, did it.
Bryan (42:25):
Awesome. How about you Trevor?
Trevor (42:28):
Yeah. So my first exposure to Powell was in
Colomox where they have theirAMSD operation.
Bryan (42:36):
What's AMSD?
Trevor (42:37):
About maritime surveillance division. So at the
time, they were flying King Airsout of Comox, actually, of our
hangar where they shared aportion of the hangar. So I I
knew the, operation. And mywife, who at the time was my
girlfriend, was flying as a,aerial surveillance officer for,
(42:58):
Department of Fisheries andOceans.
Bryan (42:59):
Okay.
Pat (43:00):
So I knew Powell.
Trevor (43:04):
And then, flash forward to you know, I'm in Winnipeg as
the CEO there. And and at thatrank, I realized I was getting
further and further away from mycockpit. And and when I was
flying in Winnipeg, I in mycommand tour and handling all
these problems that Iencountered during my two years
there, I realized that the thingI'm looked forward to the most
(43:25):
was my time flying with fourzero two and flying the dash
eight. So when I heard there wasa position down here where I'd
been before actually with theAurora many, many years ago.
Jeez.
Do I wish I bought real estate?I, I took a chance. I threw my,
name in the hat, and they wereactually quite far down the road
in the application process. Andsimilar to Pat, actually, I had
(43:46):
about a weekend to decide if ifwe wanted to do this. And, the
the idea of returning tooperational flying, living in
The Caribbean, was really, youknow, in the end, an adventure
that my family and I couldn'tturn down.
So we said yes.
Bryan (44:04):
Right on. What is PAL's mission overall in The Caribbean
and why are you based inCuracao?
Trevor (44:11):
So overall mission in The Caribbean is to provide
power to the Dutch Caribbeancoast guard. Our primary role is
actually search and rescue. Wealso support, disaster relief,
police and fisheries, customs,counter narcotics, anything that
the, our client would like theaircraft to do. We're based in
(44:37):
Curacao because it is centralreally to the Caribbean region,
and it also has the, navy, Dutchnavy headquarters here, which
makes it just an easy fusion of,all the information. Rescue
coordination center is alsohere.
Anything you wanna add to that,Pat?
Pat (44:53):
We're based here when they when they created the Dutch
Caribbean Coast Guard. The thefacility already existed from
the from the Dutch navy. So thatthat's why it's based here, the
facilities, the hangars,everything was already here. So
that that probably drove the thechoice of, of base location.
Bryan (45:13):
Okay. Right on. Pat, you had conducted several
deployments to do similar workin the Aurora with the RCAF. How
did this help prepare you forthis line of work?
Trevor (45:24):
Well,
Pat (45:26):
doing op care in the Air Force, I had been here in
Curacao before for onedeployment. I had done a
deployment in Martinique, ElSalvador, Key West, Florida. So
I was already familiar with thecounter drug aspect and the
organization of JAD of South. SoI was familiar with that. So I
(45:47):
knew sort of what that part ofthe mission was about.
I had seen go fasts before. Iwas familiar with the
operational concept. So that washelpful when I arrived here and
started flying and get throughthe training. So that was not
(46:08):
foreign to me. But being amilitary guy, I was less
familiar with the lawenforcement aspects of what we
do here.
Being an Aurora guide, had bitof an introduction to to to SAR,
but it's not something that Ihad done in this region, before.
So these things were all new,but the counter drug mission,
(46:30):
was not a not a new thing forme.
Bryan (46:33):
Okay. You mentioned go fast. Can you just quickly
explain what that is?
Pat (46:37):
It's the colloquial term for the vessels that are used to
transport drugs. They tend tomove at high speed so they've
been called go fasts.
Bryan (46:49):
Right on. Did either of you carry out any special flight
training for counter narcoticswith PAL or have to learn any
special tactics and procedures?
Pat (46:58):
For me, it wasn't necessarily like a special
training. It's just when I gothere, the client has a training
program for their mission. So ofcourse counter narcotics is
included in that trainingprogram. So there was nothing
really, from the PAL side, itwas more the client and their
(47:21):
mission and their requirementsthat they provided the training.
Bryan (47:24):
Okay, makes sense. How about for you Trevor?
Trevor (47:27):
Yeah. The the training, specifically for the front end,
we have a fairly robust trainingprogram for our guys where we
move from the right seat to theleft seat. Because it's not, you
might find a dash eight pilotwho has flown airlines and comes
down, but it's nowhere close tothe same thing.
Bryan (47:50):
Yeah.
Trevor (47:50):
So really what you're looking for is someone who has
the maritime patrol backgroundthat can fly to Ashiades. And,
of course, you can imagine thatthe low level flying piece is
something that requires somesome training, a robust amount
of training for someone who'snever been close to the water. I
find that it's fairly, easy formilitary or ex military guys to
(48:14):
pick that up. But, a lot of thecivilian guys who come here
straight off the street, that wedo very rarely hire, usually, we
hire internally to the companybecause the company actually has
a huge amount of experience inlow level flying and maritime
patrol operations.
Bryan (48:33):
For sure.
Trevor (48:34):
Most of those guys and gals that we, we bring down
already have that piece in theirtoolbox. But, you know, one of
the big things is the low levelflying.
Bryan (48:45):
Yeah. I can imagine for an airline pilot, that would be
really, really uncomfortable ifthey had never done that before.
Now, like, maybe they did lowlevel a little bit of low level
flying, say, when they wereflying in a Cessna or something
like but to bring what theywould think of as an airliner
down low over the ocean would bepretty weird.
Trevor (49:04):
Yeah. We're authorized day VMC down to a 100 feet. So
that, you know, if you rememberyour time in the Aurora, that
gives you the speed rush. Guyswho've never been down there
before, it takes a little whilefor them to get used to it.
Bryan (49:19):
Yeah. For sure. Do you rotate in and out of The
Caribbean or do you live therefull time for this job?
Trevor (49:26):
We live here full time. Some of our maintenance
personnel are rotational, but,any of the, the pilots, taco,
sensor operators living, youknow, as expats would in The
Caribbean. Company provides anallowance for housing, but we do
(49:46):
live on the economy
Bryan (49:47):
Okay.
Trevor (49:48):
As you've heard. I guess it's a classic military term,
but it just means you, you rentthe house within a certain
distance of the, of theairfield. And, you know, your
kids go to school here. Youryour spouses have the ability to
work if they if they want. We'reresidents of Curacao, which is
also really cool because you'reexperiencing this the culture of
(50:11):
this island while you're doingoperation.
Bryan (50:14):
Yeah. That's awesome. Let's
Trevor (50:17):
get
Bryan (50:17):
an overall picture of operations. Trevor, what islands
do you patrol and what is youroperations area?
Trevor (50:23):
Okay. So the the operations area is the Caribbean
Sea, really, and everything inbetween. Normal islands, though,
that we patrol, and you'll hearthis, the ABC, which is Aruba,
Bonaire, Curacao.
Bryan (50:38):
Okay.
Trevor (50:39):
And then the S S S, which is Seva Station, Saint
Martin. And those areeffectively the Dutch islands or
at least the islands that, havepatrols executed by the Dutch
Caribbean coast guard. Now wecan also be tasked for
operations search and rescue inthe whole Caribbean Sea all the
(51:02):
way out to Jamaica to to SaintCroix and Puerto Rico, and then
as far to the east into the halfmoon chain of Barbados
Bryan (51:12):
Okay.
Trevor (51:12):
And anywhere in between. And that also goes for, you
know, any narcotics operations.It's, it's quite a vast area
that we, can control.
Bryan (51:23):
Yeah. Was gonna say that's, that's quite a wide
area. That's, that's a lot ofocean.
Trevor (51:28):
Exactly.
Bryan (51:29):
Do you deploy to any other locations?
Trevor (51:32):
Yeah. We do. So I've personally deployed to Aruba,
Bonaire, Saint Martin, Stacia,Martinique, French Island at
Martinique. Really good French,fresh French loaf bread.
Pat (51:47):
Yeah. And I I've recently done a deployment to Aruba and
last year did a deployment toMartinique for a certain length
of time. So we do get tend toget around the region.
Trevor (52:00):
Yeah, for sure.
Bryan (52:02):
That's awesome. That's nice to get a little variety in.
Trevor (52:04):
Yeah, it's good for guys too. Living deployed ops is
different than, than being athome. So it gives guys great
experience, especially becausewe have some cycling of, TACoS,
our client in and out of here.So it gives them an opportunity
to see, deployed operations.
Bryan (52:25):
Okay, guys. That's gonna wrap up part two of our chat for
today. It was super interestingto hear about your careers in
the RCAF as well as thebeginnings of what you guys do
down in The Caribbean with Pal.And I'm really looking forward
to hearing about the work you'redoing down in Curacao. Thank you
again for being here today.
Pat (52:40):
It was my pleasure, Brian.
Trevor (52:42):
Yeah. Thanks, Brian. I've actually, wanted to be,
chat with you on this show for awhile so it's it's a pleasure to
have this conversation.
Bryan (52:49):
Right on. Alright. That wraps up part two of our chat
with Trevor and Pat where wediscussed their operational
careers in the RCAF as well asthe beginnings of what led them
down to The Caribbean andworking with PAL. For our next
episode, tune in as we dive deepinto their work with PAL in the
Dutch Caribbean coast guard. Doyou have any questions or
comments about anything you'veheard in this show?
(53:10):
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(53:32):
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Bryan (00:58):
Alright. We're ready for departure here at the pilot
project podcast, the best sourcefor stories and advice from RCAF
and mission aviation pilotsbrought to you by Sky's
Magazine. I'm your host, BrianMorrison. With me today is
Trevor Juby, a retired RCAFlieutenant colonel and current
base chief pilot with PowellAerospace in Curacao, and Pat
Lalonde, a retired RCAF masterwarrant officer and current
(01:20):
tactical coordinator and missioncommander with Powell Aerospace
in Curacao. Guys, welcome backto the show, and I'm really
looking forward to this.
Listeners can check out part oneto hear about Trevor and Pat's
early career and what led themto their early flying
experiences. Now for part two,we're going to focus on some of
their operational experiencesand start discussing their role
down with PAL Aerospace and theDutch Caribbean Coast Guard. So
(01:44):
we're gonna shift back to Patand talk about some of his
operational experiences in theRCAF. So Pat, we've said you
were unexpectedly switched to aposting at 407 Maritime Maritime
Patrol Squadron in Comox BC.What was life like on an
operational squadron for a newASOP and how did it compare to
your previous life in the army?
Pat (02:04):
You know, even looking back this far out, it was probably
the best time that I had was asa brand new guy arriving on
squadron. I made the move, Iarrived, I unpacked and there
was only two of us that were newsensor operators on the
squadron. So everything thathappened was literally take the
new guy with you, take the newguy with you. I only had three
(02:28):
flights on the squadron and thenit was like, yep, there's a crew
going to San Diego for a month.Pack your bags, you're going
with them.
Bryan (02:34):
Nice.
Pat (02:35):
Yeah, that was my first month on the squadron. I just
looked at my logbook and it wasin. I flew three times and then
it's like go to California for amonth and was spent a month
chasing submarines and flyingaround warships and and you
know, doing that that navalwarfare thing, it was great. And
when you got back from that, I'mstill the only new there's still
(02:56):
only two new guys. Yeah.
Okay. Crew five is going on thisexercise. So, yep, take the new
guy with you. They're like, oh,I'm going again. It's like it it
it would I spent a lot of timeaway from home, but it was
always new training opportunity,a new a new training opportunity
one after the other.
So that I I look back on it andthat time as a brand new, brand
new guy on the squadron wasgreat because everybody wanted
(03:18):
to take the new guy to learnstuff. So it was always one trip
after another, one trainingexercise after another. I'd say
even looking at it back now thatit was the best of time.
Bryan (03:31):
Four zero seven Squadron is known for getting to go to a
lot of amazing places forexercises. What was your
favorite destination and whatwas the biggest thing you
learned in those years with allthose great training
opportunities?
Pat (03:42):
So in those years when I was a brand new guy, we went a
lot of places. So my familydoesn't feel bad for me that I
went to Hawaii at least five orsix times a year, sometimes for
a month or two. So it'sdifficult to explain to family
(04:03):
members that, Oh, I don't wantto go to work. I have to go to
Hawaii one more time. So youdon't get a lot of sympathy, but
Hawaii was a regular place forfour or seven Squadron for
either things like Rimpak inJuly, or we went for two weeks
at a time sometimes for a U.
Submarine commander scores topractice ASW. But I also almost
(04:27):
went once a month to California,to San Diego. And out of all the
years that I spent in Comox, SanDiego was my favorite place to
go. It's probably my favoritecity in North America, but the
training there was always reallygood. There was a great base to
(04:47):
fly from.
There was always submarines totrain on. There was always
aircraft carriers and warshipsand complex exercises. You just
crammed so much into two weeksand it was always, you learned
new tactics. You learned how towork in broader air campaigns
and naval campaigns. It wasalways something new and new
(05:11):
place to experience.
And as I went back multipletimes, I knew where to go. I got
used to where to go, where toeat, where to stay. I absolutely
can't say anything bad aboutoperating out of anywhere in San
Diego as an Aurora guy.
Bryan (05:27):
Yeah, I did my checkride in San Diego and what an amazing
city. It's just like the weatheris great, the scenery is great,
flying out of North Island wasreally cool. Yeah. I I agree. I
don't have anything bad to sayabout San Diego.
Pat (05:41):
Yeah. It's it's the perfect place to to to be deployed to.
And the the training thathappens out of that base is just
second to none.
Bryan (05:52):
So you also took part in the effort to oust Gaddafi in OP
Mobile. Can you tell us aboutyour experiences there and what
was the mission of the Aurora?
Pat (06:00):
Yeah. So that was, that was in 2011 and I knew that two
things were coming to an end atthe time was my time on the high
readiness crew was within amonth or so to end. And I knew
that from talking to the careermanager that I was posted that
year as well. So my brain wason, okay, the time at the
(06:25):
squadron is winding down. Andthen all of sudden one day on a
Saturday morning, the phonerang.
I was the lead sensor operatorstill on the high readiness
crew. And the flight commandersaid, I need you to pack your
bags for probably fifty sixdays. You might be leaving
today. We don't know yet. If youdon't hear anything, come in
(06:49):
with your bags on Mondaymorning, call your guys.
Yeah. Okay. So I went throughthe evolution of calling the
other sensor operators on thecrew and explained to them that,
A, yes, I know it's early onSaturday. No, this is not a
joke. Pack your bags.
And nothing through the weekend.And then on Monday morning, did
(07:09):
us, we were told showed up withmy bags. And then it was the
massive effort of gettingthrough the DAG process and
before lunch because we wereplanning to take off and head
for Greenwood in the afternoon.
Trevor (07:24):
Wow. Was like,
Pat (07:25):
woah, this is fast.
Bryan (07:26):
You were supposed to DAG. What does DAG stand for again?
Can you remember?
Pat (07:30):
Departure Assistance Group, I think it was.
Bryan (07:33):
Basically for the listeners, it is a huge
checklist that you need to getsigned off from all the various
places on base. Basicallysaying, yes, this person is
ready to deploy.
Pat (07:43):
Yeah. So we went through that process, loaded the
airplane with everyone,everybody's luggage, all the
mission equipment that we weregonna take with us. And, we left
for Greenwood and, arrived thatnight. And then the next morning
it was like, the deploymentmight be canceled. Don't get
your hopes up.
(08:06):
An election was called. So wethought the government's not
gonna do anything now and wentto went to bed. And then, the
next morning knocking on my dooris our tech nav, Kurt Luneberg
knocking on the door says, Pat,I know you're Let me know if
you're awake enough to have aconversation. So I said, yeah,
(08:27):
it goes, we're leaving likeright now.
Bryan (08:29):
Okay.
Pat (08:31):
So, we went through the evolution of reloading the
airplane and getting going and,no destination in mind. We were
told take off, head to the Eastand we'll call you to tell you
what base or what country youneed to land in.
Bryan (08:48):
That's crazy. Man, that must have been fairly stressful
for the crew commander.
Pat (08:55):
Oh, yeah. Yeah. You can't can't really plan for anything.
And then of course we had we hadnothing at the other end. Derek
Hock was the was major and hewas detachment commander at the
time came with came with ourcrew.
And eventually it was decided wewere going to Sigonella in
Sicily, which is great becauseit's a familiar base to the
(09:19):
Aurora fleet. We went onexercise there a couple of times
a year. So we ended up there andthe typical, you know, RotoZero
things. We landed and it waslike, a place to stay, find some
cars, everything from scratch.So that's what I love about
(09:39):
RotoZero is the lines haven'tbeen drawn for you yet.
So you gotta figure it out. Youget to set it all up. So it was
a really exciting time to set upa brand new operation from
scratch. And then of course,start operational flying almost
immediately. So doing setup lifeand fly your missions at the
(10:01):
same time.
It was an exciting time and itwas very challenging for
everybody involved.
Bryan (10:06):
And what was the mission at that time for the Aurora?
Pat (10:09):
So for us at the beginning, it was embargo enforcement on
weapons coming in. So our firstfew missions were sort of parked
in a box over to Mediterranean,looking for suspicious vessels,
bringing in weapons into Libya.But that did not last very long.
(10:29):
I think we only did two of thosemissions before the focus became
entirely on the war on land. Sowe would hang out just off the
shore with sensors andessentially look for activity to
report back with intelligence onwhat was happening on the ground
(10:51):
in Libya.
And that also quickly morphedinto now we were cooperating
with allied assets, looking fortargets for the fighters to
strike. It was very dynamic.Thankfully at the time we had
already been practicing andtraining the overland mission
(11:13):
during exercises for the lasttwo, three years. But it was a
lot of developing procedures onthe fly because we hadn't
practiced all of these things.The situation on the ground was
sometimes very confusing.
So again, it was very excitingbecause we had to basically
invent new procedures and newways of doing things as we were
(11:36):
doing them and responding to asituation on the ground that
wasn't always clear. So it wasabout as challenging as it could
get at the time for for flyingin the LRP fleet.
Bryan (11:46):
Yeah. I I sort of had a similar experience doing
Rotozero in Kuwait over Iraq.It's exciting and you're kind
of, like you said, you're notyou're not making it up as you
go, but, like, there is acertain amount of of figuring
things out as you as you goalong and it is an exciting
time. Did you witness or takepart in anything exciting or was
(12:06):
it a lot of long quiet patrols?
Pat (12:09):
It's the LRP fleet, so there's always 90% boredom, and
interrupted by 10% of of sheerterror.
Bryan (12:17):
Yeah.
Pat (12:18):
So the the 10% were always fun. You know, I I remember
being tasked on a mission and wewere looking for mobile Scud
launchers. And as a teenager, Igrew up glued to watching CNN
during the Gulf War. And I'mlike, all of a sudden, I'm
looking for what Scud missiles?I'm sorry, like what year is
(12:38):
this?
And following tanks andcoordinating strikes by Canadian
F-18s was something that wasnew. We had never really trained
for that, but it was exciting towatch, not just watch, but be in
(12:59):
the middle of an actual air warand court it, know, having to
pay attention all of sudden tothings like the air tasking
orders and what AWACS are weworking with today.
Bryan (13:12):
And for the listeners, AWACS is airborne warning and
control system. It's basicallythe airplane you see with a
giant radar sitting on its back,and it essentially works as an
airborne air traffic controlleras well as threat detection and
a number of other functions.
Pat (13:27):
What ships are available in in the area, it's it was an
actual full spectrum operationand professionally it was like,
oh, this is what it's supposedto be like. It it was really,
really good.
Bryan (13:39):
That's awesome. So you were whisked away to Ottawa for
a ground job, but as pertradition in your career, you
were quickly posted back to fourzero seven Squadron as ASOP
training officer, ASOP standardsofficer, and senior ASOP where
you reached the rank of masterwarrant officer. During this
tour, you deployed to OpImpactfor nine months and flew 31
missions while holding a fulltime ground job. For a lot of us
(14:02):
in the Aurora community, thistime period was very
challenging. How was it for you?
Pat (14:08):
About as challenging as it would have been for everyone
because everything of course wasat the last minute. I had just
come off, as you mentioned, ashort posting in Ottawa, which
was another, as soon as Iunpacked, the career manager
tells me turn around and goback. Took job back at four zero
(14:30):
seven Squadron and train newpeople. And then all of a
sudden, one day the stuff wasstarting to boil over in Iraq
with ISIS. And I remember beingin the ops lounge watching TV
when the government announced,okay, we're sending jets, we're
sending refuelers and we're alsosending long range patrol
(14:53):
aircraft.
And I looked at my boss and hesaid, go to clothing stores, get
some tan colored gear and packyour bags. And I'm like, when?
Oh, like now. Go to clothingstores immediately. A mouse
panic service challengingbecause I a single parent at the
time.
So I had to figure that out.Essentially, this was on a
(15:17):
Wednesday, I deployed on theweekends and so I had to quickly
make family arrangements anddeploy to something we didn't
know. Like before the crewsarrived, such as yourself to the
base in Kuwait. When we gotthere, I got off the C-seventeen
(15:41):
and all we had was an ATCOtrailer that had previously been
on fire.
Bryan (15:46):
Oh my gosh.
Pat (15:46):
And yeah, exactly. And if you knew where to look, you
could see the remnants of thefire that had been in there. And
it was just me, Alex Yignac andRay Townsend and it was like,
okay, you need to set up a fullyfunctional long range patrol
detachment here with this andthe airplanes arriving in a few
(16:07):
days.
Bryan (16:08):
That's crazy.
Pat (16:09):
Yeah, so we had to tactically acquire a lot of
things from vehicles formaintenance to haul parts to
beds for the crews to sleep in.And there was a lot of
competition for real estatebecause you also had a Hercules
detachment showing up. You hadthe refueling jets, the air
(16:30):
buses that were coming, all thesupport for the entire air task
force and the joint task force,everybody was arriving at the
same time. So it was a lot of,we worked a lot of twenty hour
days to create a flying unit outof nothing.
Bryan (16:48):
That's crazy. And just from the perspective of the
people who showed up with thingsbeing set up by you guys, you
guys did a great job because wehad great accommodations. We had
little, you know, we were fourto a room at first, which was a
little tight with the gear andeverything, but that quickly
improved. And and honestly, anyanyone who's ever been in the
army is laughing at me right nowfor complaining about that. We
(17:11):
had, you know, a hard sidedshelter with air conditioning
and blackout.
Like the windows were boardedover so it was blackout and you
could sleep at any time duringthe day. Like you guys did a
great job.
Pat (17:22):
Thanks. It was a lot of work and a lot of negotiation
with people to make it happen,which is great because I ran
into so many people that I knewthat I didn't even know were
deployed. I'd be walking down tosome random office like
transport. Hey, we used to worktogether and blah, blah, blah.
And name whatever base or unit.
(17:46):
And it'd be like, hey, what doyou need? I really need a pickup
truck for my maintenance guys.Oh, sure. Just by the sheer
weight of relationships that youhad built over the years, it was
really, it helped a lot to makeit happen and it wasn't always
perfect. And there wassituations where it was a lot of
times I had to explain to thecrews coming in and like, trust
(18:07):
me, sign here.
I know it sounds bad, but it'sgonna be it. The fix is in. Just
trust me.
Bryan (18:13):
I remember that.
Pat (18:14):
Take a leap of faith. Yeah. I wouldn't be surprised because
I had that you'd remember that.I had to tell people, trust me,
it'll be fixed. Just sign apaper.
Bryan (18:23):
Yeah. What was the biggest thing you learned during
this tour in Kuwait and flyingover Iraq?
Pat (18:31):
Training works. Trust everything that you've been,
trained to do because even whenyou're in a situation that is
outside of what you're trained,your training will guide you to
the answer. As the operationsguy, it always worked for me. I
(18:51):
was always able to figure outwhat to do simply because of the
training that I had. So trainingworks.
It does what it's supposed todo. And as long as you're
willing to put in the work andthe effort. And I learned that
everybody wants to do the rightthing. It's just sometimes they
(19:11):
don't know how. So if you Team,teamwork makes the dream work,
they say.
And, it was never more obvious,than when I went to Kuwait.
Bryan (19:21):
Yeah, for sure. So, Trevor, let's take some time to
talk about your operationalexperiences in the RCAF. Can you
describe some highlights fromyour early years flying
operationally on the Aurora?
Trevor (19:33):
Yeah. Okay. So the Aurora, four zero seven
Squadron, great squadron. I didfive years there until about,
04/00/2008. Reached maritimepatrol crew commander, unit ICP,
PSTO roles as pilot standardstraining officer.
(19:54):
We had, of course, all the WestCoast deployments, which I know
some of the guys at Greenwood attimes were jealous of.
Bryan (20:00):
For
Trevor (20:01):
sure. I've been to Hawaii more times than I can
count, five, six times. It kindabecame a joke. It was like, oh,
we're going to Hawaii again. SanDiego, obviously, quite a lot,
down there on exercise.
Also got a chance to go over toKinloss, Scotland, which was a
(20:21):
great time. Stayed at the AltonBeran Hotel. I had a pub in the
basement. Some really goodmemories there. Shamia for Druff
Net Patrols, and then, westarted obviously into the
overland role.
So we a lot of stuff inWainwright, a lot of stuff in
Palm Springs, a lot of northerndeployments as well. Actually,
(20:42):
one of the highlights I canremember, was getting a chance
to return to Whitehorse with theAurora for the, Sourdough Air
Show. Many of the militarymembers listening will know the
Sourdough Air Show.
Bryan (20:54):
That must have felt like a pretty cool full circle
moment.
Trevor (20:58):
Yeah. That was that was really that was really cool.
And, you know, I I had a chanceto bring the the air cadets out,
give them a tour of the,aircraft. And, that was really
cool. Full circle, you know,circle of life type of thing.
Of course, it's it brings backmemories to the Sunday party at
(21:18):
Jack Kings Coats place. He justpassed away, actually recently.
That was a that was such apopular air show that I remember
during the summertime, my dadand I had to go over to Jack's
place and help reinforce hisback deck because so many people
would come outside and stand onit that, it started to collapse.
(21:40):
So I went over it and reinforcedit, during the summer. Cold air
show, static air show.
I mean, I remember my, APU onthe Aurora froze. We had to get
a, Perman Nelson, cold hot airon it to start it up. But, yeah,
good memories of flying theAurora and, you know, really the
(22:00):
first, the first big aircraftthat I flew that I realized you
can reach out and touch anywherein the world. Yeah. Global
deployable capability, which,which kinda, you know, it it's
something I've remembered for mywhole career.
Bryan (22:16):
Yeah. It's it really is an awesome, super capable, super
flexible aircraft and it's onits way out. The p eight will be
replacing it in the next five toten years. We've already got
crews training on them, but,it'll be sad to see the P3s kind
of fade into the mist.
Trevor (22:33):
Yeah. Beautiful aircraft. Loved it.
Bryan (22:35):
So something that was new at the time, which now the
Aurora does extensively, isoverland intelligence
surveillance reconnaissance orISR work, which we talked a
little bit about with Pat. Youwere around when the MX 20
camera first came on board. Howdid this tool take the Aurora
from a sub hunter into overlandtactics?
Trevor (22:54):
Yeah. Suddenly, weren't over water anymore. We weren't
due regard. We were, we wereoverland in different airspace,
you know, usually high level toensure covert status. And we
were learning how to use that MX20.
You know, I can remember thegrowing pains with the ASOPs,
and you remember this path, youknow, how you had to how you had
(23:16):
to input the elevation, of thetarget you were looking at
because, obviously, the earth isnot one level, and depending on
the elevation, you could belooking in the wrong spot. All
those growing pains happened, aswe've learned. And Wainwright
became a location we'd frequentquite a lot for exercises
(23:38):
because it was close enough thatwe could do it in a hop off in a
mocks. We'd also deploy thereand do exercises. Of course, we
did a lot in The U S.
Yeah. I deployed to Cold Lake,staying in the motel there
beside the Cold Lake, theinfamous bar. I don't know what
it's named now. Flying over landmissions brings back some good
(23:59):
memories.
Bryan (24:01):
A really cool opportunity came your way, and you ended up
flying the NATO AWACS e three aBoeing seven zero seven. Can you
tell us how that came about andwhat your experiences were like
on that aircraft?
Trevor (24:12):
Yeah. So that's a that's a good story, actually. Right
place, right time in themilitary is a lot of the reasons
you go places. Right? Pat's gotexamples.
I've got so many examplesthrough my career, just right
place, right time. So, it's02/2008. I'm doing well at four
(24:33):
zero seven squadron, lovingComox, loving the job. Crew
commander in the pilot poolsystem, that was back when we
went to the pool system. We wentaway from the crews for a while,
because we're we're short.
We're losing guys to airlines.So there was a pilot pool, a
flight engineer pool, an Aesoppool. You just pick from the
pool to to fly. So I'm in thepilot pool, the pilot pit as we
(24:56):
called it on a Friday. It's anoffice day and, really, I'm just
sitting there waiting for themess to open in Comox.
And I'm waiting to go over tothe snake pit. And, Comox is one
of those places on a Fridayafternoon if the weather is
nice, there's not a lot ofpeople around squatter. Yeah.
It's just nothing to do. So ifyou can believe it, you know,
(25:17):
this is before I'm dating myselfhere.
This before really cell phoneswere big where you could sit
there and surf the nets andthere's no magazines laying
around, no flight safetymagazines to read. So I
literally had my AOIs open in mylap because I was looking at
something that I had thoughtabout.
Bryan (25:32):
And for the listeners, AOIs are aircraft operating
instructions that basicallydescribes all the systems and
how to operate the aircraft.
Trevor (25:39):
And the seal walked in. Talk about timing, right? Mike
Hogan. And, I was the only guyin there and and he's like,
Joobie, what are you doing inhere on a Friday afternoon? You
know?
And I'm like, I'm doing a littlestudying, sir. And so that
started the conversation andhe's like, well, I got a
problem. I need a pilot to go toGermany on the AWACS. It's four
(26:04):
zero seven squadron's turn, andI don't want someone that will
embarrass the family. So hesaid, are you interested?
And, you know, at the time I wasapproaching posting season, one
of my instructors in Boucher hadmoved to snowbirds and during
spring training, as you know,snowbirds do spring training in
(26:24):
Comox. And the year passed, hehad come out and give me a
chance to go with a practiceshow with him. Man, I love I
love formation flying for MooseJaw. Love the snowbirds and
possibility to be a Canadiansymbol would have been an
amazing experience. So I had akind of expressed interest in
snowbirds or considered throwingmy hat in the ring for a tryout.
(26:47):
It's a couple of ex snowbirds on04/2007. They'd start giving me
some advice. And then bothPSDOs, the status of training
officers in Greenwood, put theirreleases in, and they went to
WestJet. And so, you know, youstart to hear these posting
whispers about Greenwood, and itwas looking more and more likely
(27:07):
for him. And now I get thisFriday conversation with the
CEO.
Hey. Do you wanna go out can? Doyou wanna go to GK? So suffice
to say, had a quick conversationthat weekend with my, my wife,
and, we were posted over we wentto Germany. What what an amazing
(27:27):
opportunity.
Bryan (27:28):
You mentioned GK, that's Geile Kirschen in Germany.
Right?
Trevor (27:32):
Everyone's calls it GK because it's such a mouthful,
but Geilekirchen, Germany wherethe NATO, bases where they have
the, NATO AWACS squadron space.Just what that was one of the
highlights of my career, youknow, it's going over there, the
posting, because everyone thatgoes over there, they get posted
in a certain slots. So I knewthat I was going over, for two
(27:54):
years in the operationalsquadron, and then I'd be two
years in the training squad. Andthat was also really exciting to
eventually get a chance to be aninstructor there. And the first
two years, was, it was, youknow, as you hear these places
around the world, a flying club,it was training were deployed
(28:15):
all around Europe.
I reached aircraft captainstatus, instructor, and
eventually evaluator status onthe jet. Had forward operating
bases. So so NATO has forwardoperating bases in, Trapani,
Italy, in Orland, Norway, inKonya, Turkey, Pravesa, Greece.
(28:41):
And all over the place, we flew.I mean, Berlin air show, the
Slovakia air show, which I neverthought I'd go to Slovakia for
an air show, but we were one ofthe most popular chests to
arrive.
And then, of course, after twoyears, we started to get into
the wartime environment. SoLibya kicked off, and I deployed
(29:05):
to Libya three times. We were,job in in Libya was to enforce
the no fly zone, and we were oneof the first high value assets
to move overland, which wasalways something that was made
you pay attention because youwere assuming that all the,
(29:26):
surface to air threats wereeliminated. One really cool
actually story, I'll keep itsomewhat unclass, was that,
nearing the end of the conflict,it was our weapons controllers
in the back that werecontrolling the f sixteens that
bombed Gaddafi's compound as hewas trying to escape the city,
(29:49):
which eventually led to this,number three.
Bryan (29:52):
Crazy.
Trevor (29:52):
So it was was cool to see that, come to an end and for
us to be part of it.
Bryan (29:59):
Yeah. That's wild. That's a that's a piece of history for
sure.
Trevor (30:03):
Yeah.
Bryan (30:05):
So Canada is looking at acquiring airborne early warning
aircraft, potentially the eseven a Wedgetail among a few
options. Regardless of whichaircraft is chosen, what will it
take to stand up thiscapability, and why do you think
it's important?
Trevor (30:18):
Yeah. Okay. So we've seen the we talked about it a
little bit earlier. We've seenthe prime minister's latest
pledge to hit the 5%, spendingby 2035. So 3.5 on defense and
point five on infrastructure.
So what will it take to set itup? We have the subject matter
knowledge in the RCF right nowto stand this capability up.
(30:40):
Some of the smartest people Iknow are Royal Canadian Air
Force weapons controllers. Arethey are next level. I think
their trade actually has moreoutcan positions than any other
trades combined.
I joke about because when I talkwith the, guys and gals that do
that, they're they seem likethey're always, outcan. Yeah.
(31:02):
And the pilot knowledge will bethere. This is a jet. You know,
seven thirty seven is somethingthat we will be familiar with.
There's many of us that haveserved that are have Boeing
experience. But, you know, as wemove to the p eight, you'll see
that, the experience will bethere, especially with the air
(31:23):
to air refueling knowledge thatwill only increase with the p
eight, which is from my timewith the AWACS is some of the
most challenging but rewardingflying I've ever done is taking
gas from another large aircraftin a in a tanker truck. And that
guys and gals will just getbetter at that as we go. And and
(31:45):
why? You know, why do we why dowe think it's important?
Well, an airborne early warningaircraft, it's only gonna
augment what the RCAF leadershiphas already put in motion. And
this is gonna be another pieceof this integrated multilayer
ISR sensor approach to toCanada's coastlines, Northeast
and west. And I think it's asuper exciting capability that's
(32:09):
coming down the pipe and what agreat time to be in the RCAF.
Bryan (32:13):
Yeah. We've got a lot of new capabilities that are gonna
be stood up. I think while it'sgonna be challenging from a
personnel perspective in termsof just personnel levels, the
staffing levels, I think there'sso many exciting opportunities
coming up with these newaircraft that honestly, I think
I'm a little jealous of anyonewho's joining, you know, in the
(32:35):
next like, now and in the nextfive years
Trevor (32:38):
Yeah. Totally.
Bryan (32:38):
With all the stuff that's coming online. It's gonna be
it's gonna be crazy.
Trevor (32:42):
Yeah. Agree.
Bryan (32:45):
So you finished your time in the RCAF as a lieutenant
colonel, and your billet as a COwas at seventeen Wing Operations
Support Squadron or OSS. Duringthis time, you were also able to
augment four zero two squadronas a dash eight pilot, which was
a huge opportunity. What was thebiggest challenge you faced at
that time, particularly withbalancing your CO duties while
maintaining a flying category?
Trevor (33:07):
Okay. So the CO CO of OSS, it's a busy, job. Any of
the OSS COs across any of thewings will understand when I say
this. And this was this was kindof the first time that they were
combining wing ops, you know,wing tests versus wing
readiness, military police, youknow, FOL, for the hornet
(33:30):
commissioners. And and really,he just became an overall
problem solver.
So the the wing commander at thetime was Andy Cook, and he is a
pilot's pilot. And he wasactually flying time to time
with the Herc Squadron inWinnipeg. And he very much
believed to keep him flying as apilot in higher ranks was
important. You know, it allowedyou not only to get the much
(33:53):
needed morale boost foryourself, you know, working,
what is predominantly a groundjob. It gives you that little
bit of mental health to goflying, But it also gave a
chance to see the wing at theoperational level.
And seeing the wing in itsoperating areas is different if
you're in wing ops on the groundversus actually in the aircraft.
(34:16):
Four zero four zero two, theyhave some amazing experience
with that squadron, some really,really experienced pilots. And I
was fortunate to get a chance tofly and learn from them and
augment them. And, yeah, I was Iwas able to successfully balance
the CO duties with the with theflying cat. You know, careful
selection of flights thatbecame, very good friends with
(34:37):
the scheduler.
And, you know, in the nine busydays, and you could pick them
pick them out as you knew, yourschedule. And, usually, you're
pretty safe on a on a Tuesday ora Wednesday, but you knew that,
usually Mondays and Fridays wereyour busy days as you assess
duties. And then I had a veryconfident, chief, and I had a
(35:01):
very, very confident DCO. Andthey were able to take some of
the load when I'd be up flying.
Bryan (35:08):
It's great to hear that you were able to keep that
flying going as a CO. It's notsomething everybody gets to do,
although it does seem to bebecoming more common again from
like the interviews I've donerecently. But that's great that
you were able to do that. Andobviously, like you said, you
gave credit to your chief andthat's a huge piece of the
puzzle, right, is the supportfrom your NCMs and your senior
(35:29):
NCOs and the military runs onthem, right?
Trevor (35:33):
Exactly. And there's very much a, I guess, angle to
this that's, street credit,right? You you need to
understand the operation fromits most basic tactical level if
you're gonna command at thetactical and operational levels.
Yeah. So Yeah.
(35:53):
I think it's important that youget your hand in it and you
understand what your what yourtroops are are doing from
grassroots level.
Bryan (36:02):
For sure.
Trevor (36:02):
And it it is fun. I mean, pilots pilots wanna fly.
Right?
Bryan (36:05):
Yeah, absolutely. This is a story for both of you guys.
Apparently you shared theexperience of having a near
miss. Can you both tell us aboutthat?
Trevor (36:16):
Yeah, for sure. How about I just lay out the,
groundwork and you can add inAbsolutely. Behind it. Yeah. So
I I definitely used up one ofmy, nine lives that day for
sure.
We're in Palm Springs. We'redoing, overland training, with
the Marines headed to Iraq.We're in the, the range acting
(36:39):
as covert aircraft. It's dusk.So, it's on the way to darkness,
but just not there.
And we have a thunderstormthat's building behind us,
masking us, pushing us closerand closer to the edge of the
range, but we're still insidethe range. Two US Hornets edge
(36:59):
of the range, not on comms, notchecking into range control, and
came as close as I want to seeanother aircraft that I'm not in
formation. Wow. Over to you,Pat.
Pat (37:12):
Yeah. So we're just on the edge of the day where where
we're gonna turn around. And, ofcourse, the the the the
confusion about what happenedand where did these guys come
from and discussions internallyto the crew and externally with
range control of these peopleare. And it ended up being a bit
(37:34):
of a butting heads conflict inbetween the aircraft captain and
the tactical coordinator in theback and sort of me in the
middle because I had just goneto the cockpit to figure out
what happened. And I've seen oneof the pilots was like, looked
like he'd seen a ghost.
Wasn't wasn't Trevor. It's seena ghost. Taknav in the back is
(37:58):
mad because now there's thisdifference of opinion. I'm just
conflict is never good. So wedid the right thing.
We went home. Well, I say homebut we went back to Palm Springs
to talk about what happenedbecause it's the old saying,
(38:18):
it's better to be on the groundwishing you were flying than
being flying wishing you were onthe ground. But it was my first
real exposure to that level ofdisagreement between two layers
of command.
Trevor (38:29):
In the end, it's a, you know, it still uses it Aurora
CRM example of how things can,the Swiss cheese can line up?
Bryan (38:39):
This requires a little explanation for the listeners.
CRM is crew resource managementand is basically the
interactions amongst the crewand how well they're working
together. The Swiss cheesecomment is basically if you
imagine layers of Swiss cheesewith holes in it, each layer
represents a layer between youand risk and the risk getting
through and becoming anincident. And we kind of say the
(39:00):
Swiss cheese is lining up whenall the holes start to feel like
they're lining up and there's anincreased level of risk of
something bad happening.
Trevor (39:07):
And we we definitely got lucky that night. And Pat and I
still finally talk talk aboutthe conversation with the taco
at the back.
Bryan (39:17):
How close would you say you guys were to the the f
eighteens?
Trevor (39:21):
I saw them as they approached, but I wasn't flying.
My first officer was flying in aleft hand bank, I saw them
pushed pushed the control yokeforward. I had no time to say
anything other than brace. Andwe did miss them, but I don't
know. I think back to that dayand I, I think it it would have
(39:43):
been different if I hadn't havetaken some action for sure.
Bryan (39:46):
Close close enough that you said brace. That's crazy.
Trevor (39:49):
Yeah. We were so close that we could, you know, you
could literally see the, thepilots in their cockpits.
Bryan (39:56):
That's crazy. That's wild. So let's talk about how
you guys started working withPowell. So for both of you, what
road led to work with Powell andparticularly to take on the
mission of counter narcotics?
Pat (40:09):
Okay, so for me, like I was familiar with Powell and that
the company existed because theyhad an operation in Comox
working a contract for theCanadian Department of Fisheries
and Oceans. So I had heard ofthem and I knew people that
worked there, but I wasn't readyfor leaving the military or
anything like that and Icertainly wasn't eligible for
(40:32):
pension. So they're sort of apension prisoner kind of thing.
But I was working the projectoffice in Ottawa for the fixed
wing search and rescue programthat led to the Kingfisher and
sort of working a desk kitchento go back flying. But as a
(40:54):
master warrant officer in theair force, it wasn't really
gonna be a reality.
And then one day I got a messagefrom a former colleague and
friend of mine who had justtaken a job in Curacao as a
sensor operator. And the messagewas short. It just said, you
need to send your resume to myboss right now. So, okay. Leap
(41:22):
with both feet before lookingand I did that.
And in the span of a weekendthat led to informal talks, to a
formal interview, to a job offerinside of forty eight hours.
That's how I ended up making theswitch from a ground job in the
air force to a flying job withPowell down here in The
(41:44):
Caribbean.
Bryan (41:45):
Wow, that moved fast,
Pat (41:47):
Very, very fast. All of a sudden it's like, yep, okay,
we're making you an offer, buthere's the deal, we need an
answer by Monday morning firstthing. Wow. The need was
immediate and me and my wifedidn't have a whole lot of time
to think about it, but we had tosit through the weekend and
anxious it out. Do we want tomove to a whole other country
(42:09):
and do it inside the next month?
It was a whirlwind, it had to bedecided fast but that's exactly
what we did. The last five yearsare history now, did it.
Bryan (42:25):
Awesome. How about you Trevor?
Trevor (42:28):
Yeah. So my first exposure to Powell was in
Colomox where they have theirAMSD operation.
Bryan (42:36):
What's AMSD?
Trevor (42:37):
About maritime surveillance division. So at the
time, they were flying King Airsout of Comox, actually, of our
hangar where they shared aportion of the hangar. So I I
knew the, operation. And mywife, who at the time was my
girlfriend, was flying as a,aerial surveillance officer for,
(42:58):
Department of Fisheries andOceans.
Bryan (42:59):
Okay.
Pat (43:00):
So I knew Powell.
Trevor (43:04):
And then, flash forward to you know, I'm in Winnipeg as
the CEO there. And and at thatrank, I realized I was getting
further and further away from mycockpit. And and when I was
flying in Winnipeg, I in mycommand tour and handling all
these problems that Iencountered during my two years
there, I realized that the thingI'm looked forward to the most
(43:25):
was my time flying with fourzero two and flying the dash
eight. So when I heard there wasa position down here where I'd
been before actually with theAurora many, many years ago.
Jeez.
Do I wish I bought real estate?I, I took a chance. I threw my,
name in the hat, and they wereactually quite far down the road
in the application process. Andsimilar to Pat, actually, I had
(43:46):
about a weekend to decide if ifwe wanted to do this. And, the
the idea of returning tooperational flying, living in
The Caribbean, was really, youknow, in the end, an adventure
that my family and I couldn'tturn down.
So we said yes.
Bryan (44:04):
Right on. What is PAL's mission overall in The Caribbean
and why are you based inCuracao?
Trevor (44:11):
So overall mission in The Caribbean is to provide
power to the Dutch Caribbeancoast guard. Our primary role is
actually search and rescue. Wealso support, disaster relief,
police and fisheries, customs,counter narcotics, anything that
the, our client would like theaircraft to do. We're based in
(44:37):
Curacao because it is centralreally to the Caribbean region,
and it also has the, navy, Dutchnavy headquarters here, which
makes it just an easy fusion of,all the information. Rescue
coordination center is alsohere.
Anything you wanna add to that,Pat?
Pat (44:53):
We're based here when they when they created the Dutch
Caribbean Coast Guard. The thefacility already existed from
the from the Dutch navy. So thatthat's why it's based here, the
facilities, the hangars,everything was already here. So
that that probably drove the thechoice of, of base location.
Bryan (45:13):
Okay. Right on. Pat, you had conducted several
deployments to do similar workin the Aurora with the RCAF. How
did this help prepare you forthis line of work?
Trevor (45:24):
Well,
Pat (45:26):
doing op care in the Air Force, I had been here in
Curacao before for onedeployment. I had done a
deployment in Martinique, ElSalvador, Key West, Florida. So
I was already familiar with thecounter drug aspect and the
organization of JAD of South. SoI was familiar with that. So I
(45:47):
knew sort of what that part ofthe mission was about.
I had seen go fasts before. Iwas familiar with the
operational concept. So that washelpful when I arrived here and
started flying and get throughthe training. So that was not
(46:08):
foreign to me. But being amilitary guy, I was less
familiar with the lawenforcement aspects of what we
do here.
Being an Aurora guide, had bitof an introduction to to to SAR,
but it's not something that Ihad done in this region, before.
So these things were all new,but the counter drug mission,
(46:30):
was not a not a new thing forme.
Bryan (46:33):
Okay. You mentioned go fast. Can you just quickly
explain what that is?
Pat (46:37):
It's the colloquial term for the vessels that are used to
transport drugs. They tend tomove at high speed so they've
been called go fasts.
Bryan (46:49):
Right on. Did either of you carry out any special flight
training for counter narcoticswith PAL or have to learn any
special tactics and procedures?
Pat (46:58):
For me, it wasn't necessarily like a special
training. It's just when I gothere, the client has a training
program for their mission. So ofcourse counter narcotics is
included in that trainingprogram. So there was nothing
really, from the PAL side, itwas more the client and their
(47:21):
mission and their requirementsthat they provided the training.
Bryan (47:24):
Okay, makes sense. How about for you Trevor?
Trevor (47:27):
Yeah. The the training, specifically for the front end,
we have a fairly robust trainingprogram for our guys where we
move from the right seat to theleft seat. Because it's not, you
might find a dash eight pilotwho has flown airlines and comes
down, but it's nowhere close tothe same thing.
Bryan (47:50):
Yeah.
Trevor (47:50):
So really what you're looking for is someone who has
the maritime patrol backgroundthat can fly to Ashiades. And,
of course, you can imagine thatthe low level flying piece is
something that requires somesome training, a robust amount
of training for someone who'snever been close to the water. I
find that it's fairly, easy formilitary or ex military guys to
(48:14):
pick that up. But, a lot of thecivilian guys who come here
straight off the street, that wedo very rarely hire, usually, we
hire internally to the companybecause the company actually has
a huge amount of experience inlow level flying and maritime
patrol operations.
Bryan (48:33):
For sure.
Trevor (48:34):
Most of those guys and gals that we, we bring down
already have that piece in theirtoolbox. But, you know, one of
the big things is the low levelflying.
Bryan (48:45):
Yeah. I can imagine for an airline pilot, that would be
really, really uncomfortable ifthey had never done that before.
Now, like, maybe they did lowlevel a little bit of low level
flying, say, when they wereflying in a Cessna or something
like but to bring what theywould think of as an airliner
down low over the ocean would bepretty weird.
Trevor (49:04):
Yeah. We're authorized day VMC down to a 100 feet. So
that, you know, if you rememberyour time in the Aurora, that
gives you the speed rush. Guyswho've never been down there
before, it takes a little whilefor them to get used to it.
Bryan (49:19):
Yeah. For sure. Do you rotate in and out of The
Caribbean or do you live therefull time for this job?
Trevor (49:26):
We live here full time. Some of our maintenance
personnel are rotational, but,any of the, the pilots, taco,
sensor operators living, youknow, as expats would in The
Caribbean. Company provides anallowance for housing, but we do
(49:46):
live on the economy
Bryan (49:47):
Okay.
Trevor (49:48):
As you've heard. I guess it's a classic military term,
but it just means you, you rentthe house within a certain
distance of the, of theairfield. And, you know, your
kids go to school here. Youryour spouses have the ability to
work if they if they want. We'reresidents of Curacao, which is
also really cool because you'reexperiencing this the culture of
(50:11):
this island while you're doingoperation.
Bryan (50:14):
Yeah. That's awesome. Let's
Trevor (50:17):
get
Bryan (50:17):
an overall picture of operations. Trevor, what islands
do you patrol and what is youroperations area?
Trevor (50:23):
Okay. So the the operations area is the Caribbean
Sea, really, and everything inbetween. Normal islands, though,
that we patrol, and you'll hearthis, the ABC, which is Aruba,
Bonaire, Curacao.
Bryan (50:38):
Okay.
Trevor (50:39):
And then the S S S, which is Seva Station, Saint
Martin. And those areeffectively the Dutch islands or
at least the islands that, havepatrols executed by the Dutch
Caribbean coast guard. Now wecan also be tasked for
operations search and rescue inthe whole Caribbean Sea all the
(51:02):
way out to Jamaica to to SaintCroix and Puerto Rico, and then
as far to the east into the halfmoon chain of Barbados
Bryan (51:12):
Okay.
Trevor (51:12):
And anywhere in between. And that also goes for, you
know, any narcotics operations.It's, it's quite a vast area
that we, can control.
Bryan (51:23):
Yeah. Was gonna say that's, that's quite a wide
area. That's, that's a lot ofocean.
Trevor (51:28):
Exactly.
Bryan (51:29):
Do you deploy to any other locations?
Trevor (51:32):
Yeah. We do. So I've personally deployed to Aruba,
Bonaire, Saint Martin, Stacia,Martinique, French Island at
Martinique. Really good French,fresh French loaf bread.
Pat (51:47):
Yeah. And I I've recently done a deployment to Aruba and
last year did a deployment toMartinique for a certain length
of time. So we do get tend toget around the region.
Trevor (52:00):
Yeah, for sure.
Bryan (52:02):
That's awesome. That's nice to get a little variety in.
Trevor (52:04):
Yeah, it's good for guys too. Living deployed ops is
different than, than being athome. So it gives guys great
experience, especially becausewe have some cycling of, TACoS,
our client in and out of here.So it gives them an opportunity
to see, deployed operations.
Bryan (52:25):
Okay, guys. That's gonna wrap up part two of our chat for
today. It was super interestingto hear about your careers in
the RCAF as well as thebeginnings of what you guys do
down in The Caribbean with Pal.And I'm really looking forward
to hearing about the work you'redoing down in Curacao. Thank you
again for being here today.
Pat (52:40):
It was my pleasure, Brian.
Trevor (52:42):
Yeah. Thanks, Brian. I've actually, wanted to be,
chat with you on this show for awhile so it's it's a pleasure to
have this conversation.
Bryan (52:49):
Right on. Alright. That wraps up part two of our chat
with Trevor and Pat where wediscussed their operational
careers in the RCAF as well asthe beginnings of what led them
down to The Caribbean andworking with PAL. For our next
episode, tune in as we dive deepinto their work with PAL in the
Dutch Caribbean coast guard. Doyou have any questions or
comments about anything you'veheard in this show?
(53:10):
Would you or someone you knowmake a great guest, or do you
have a great idea for a show?You can reach out to us at the
pilotprojectpodcast@Gmail.com oron all social media at at pod
pilot project. And be sure tocheck out that social media for
lots of great videos of our RCAFand mission aviation aircraft.
As always, we'd like to thankyou for tuning in and ask for
your help with the big three.That's like and follow us on
(53:32):
social media, share with yourfriends, and follow and rate us
five stars wherever you get yourpodcasts.
That's all for now. Thanks forlistening. Keep the blue side
up. See you. Engineer, shut downall four.
Shutting down all four engines.
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