In Part 2 of our fighter pilot series, Major Brian “Humza” Kilroy returns to share his journey from CF-18 Hornet instructor to RCAF Demo Pilot and now Senior National Representative at Italy’s International Flight Training School.
We dive into the challenges of leading four-ship formations, training young fighter pilots at 410 Tactical Fighter Operational Training Squadron, and the adrenaline of flying airshow routines in the CF-18 Hornet. Brian also describes his current work instructing Canadian and international pilots on the T-346 Master in the LIFT program, preparing the next generation of fighter pilots for frontline jets.
If you’re passionate about aviation, fighter jets, and military training, this episode offers a behind-the-scenes look you won’t want to miss.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Advertisement (00:00):
This podcast is presented by Skies Magazine. If
you're interested in theCanadian aviation industry,
Skies is your go to multimediaresource for the latest news,
in-depth features, stunningphotography, and insightful
video coverage. Whether you'rean aviation professional or
enthusiast, Sky's is dedicatedto keeping you informed and
bringing your passion foraviation to life. Visit
(00:21):
skysmag.com to learn more andsubscribe to stay updated on all
things Canadian aviation.
Bryan (00:58):
Alright. We're ready for departure here at the pilot
project podcast, the best sourcefor stories and advice from RCAF
and mission aviation pilotsbrought to you by Sky's
Magazine. I'm your host, BrianMorrison. With me today is my
comrade from the phase twoHarvard course in Moose Jaw,
major Brian Humza Kilroy, a CFeighteen Hornet pilot as well as
current senior nationalrepresentative for Canada and
(01:19):
qualified instructor on the tthree forty six at the
International Flight TrainingSchool in Italy. Brian, thank
you once again for being on theshow.
It is great to catch up with youand I'm happy you're here today.
Brian (01:29):
Thanks for having me.
Bryan (01:31):
Listeners can check out part one to hear about Brian's
early flying days, his time intraining on the Hornet as well
as some of his operational andexercise experiences. And for
today, we'll be focusing on histime as an instructor as well as
the lift program in Italy. Soone of the many qualifications
you got during your time on thec f 18 Hornet was four ship
(01:53):
lead. Can you tell our listenerswhat that is and why it's
significant?
Brian (01:57):
Yeah. We've already talked about some of the other
upgrades that I had gone throughalong the way. And then After
getting complete on four ten anddoing the combat ready upgrade
on squadron, this entire time,are what we call a wingman or a
number two, a dash two in theformation. Element is a two
(02:21):
ship. That is your basicformation.
No one else goes out therealone, kind of like the army
would talk about a fire teambuddy. You operate everything
basically as a two shipthroughout. So your initial
upgrades, everything you've donein your training up to that
point is that number two role inthe formation. Once you've done
(02:41):
that, though, you've started tobuild some experience on
Squadron. You've seen a littlebit of time.
You start to understand all thecapabilities of the the Hornet.
Now you start to move over intothat lead position. That's your
two ship upgrade. And you startto operate in that bigger
formation, which is called asection. So, you know, there's
two two ships in there.
There's make up that section,and that four ship now is your
(03:04):
basic sort of fighting formationthat you would operate in any
sort of wartime environment. Soyou have your number one
position, your lead. That isreally in control of the entire
force ship. Number two iswingman position. Number three
being another lead, but they'renot in charge of the whole
(03:27):
formation.
They're just in charge of theirelement. And number four being
that other element. So as youstart to go up in complexity,
you need more experience in theaircraft, and then you can start
doing the upgrade. And again,it's the same same upgrade
essentially that you would haveseen previously. But now for the
two ship, you'll still focus onsome of those basic
(03:50):
fundamentals.
But you're operating less so inthe 1v1 environment because that
doesn't take a lead and awingman role. Now you're
starting to talk about, in thattwo v one and into the BVR where
you're having everything as atwo ship or more. And again,
that's the same with the fourship, which is what you're
(04:11):
ultimately striving for as alead role, is to be able to take
a force ship, and now you canactually break down some of your
tactics. You don't just have asingle aircraft that has, you
know, its weapons it can employ.Now you have three other
aircraft that you're gonna beessentially in control of and
communicate your intentions.
Make a plan how you're gonna dothis air to air scenario. So if
(04:34):
you have, for example, four redair and four blue air, what kind
of tactics can you do? If it isa single 1v1, then you will only
be able to point at them, firemissiles, turn around. But now,
with multiple aircraft, you canhave different stages, either
employing supporting missiles toimpact, they can be assessing,
(04:55):
trying to gain ground, orturning around to try and flow
away from the fight. So you canhave a very dynamic scenario,
which is what you are going totry and use to keep control of
your area of operation.
You are not just going to focussolely on just your aircraft.
You have to think bigger picturenow. How do I fit into this
(05:17):
whole scenario? You start to tryand think more in the bigger
tactical picture as opposed towhat your jet is doing in this
very moment. You have to thinkabout what is everyone else's
jet doing.
And then you start to look at,you know, that I mentioned later
or previously, the, missioncommander that you see at the,
(05:41):
like, maple flag or red flag.They're taking those four ship
elements and trying to cover offthe entire scenario. So, you
have to know what the biggerpicture is, what they're looking
for your ultimate goals are, andhow are you gonna execute that.
And that is really what itbreaks down to. A lot of people
that play DCS probably start toexperiment with some of those
(06:02):
tactics that, you know, we can'tget into all the details on, but
that's essentially what we'retrying to do.
Bryan (06:08):
Okay. Well, it sounds like that could get pretty
overwhelming pretty quickly.Like, did you find that was a
pretty intense upgrade to gothrough?
Brian (06:17):
Yeah. You are definitely because at that point, you are a
bit more experienced, so you area bit more comfortable with your
own jet. But now, it is tryingto do those same things, employ
the same missiles, maneuver thesame, but while keeping track of
everyone else. It definitelyquickly gets overwhelming at
(06:38):
times. It always comes back tolesson learned.
If you are against red team onthe other side there, trying and
you're trying to protect, youknow, say, Cold Lake, it's a
defensive, counter air scenario.So you have a line that you're
trying to let no strikers pastbecause that means they have got
(06:58):
bombs on target. There's air toair threats. You you start to
maybe lose track of one of thestrikers that's down low because
you you've been focused up high,and then you're trying to get
everyone's SA back on that, youknow, with help from GCI.
Bryan (07:14):
And for the listeners, GCI is ground control intercept.
Brian (07:18):
Or you don't quite have the SA, of where your formation
is and someone goes too close tothe red air before turning
around and takes a missile,simulated missile, of course. We
chalk that up to a one bluedeath in that scenario, which is
maybe a bit gruesome, but that'show you got to train. And then
(07:39):
you go back to the debrief andsay, Okay, we lost one or two
members of our formation. Howdid that happen? What can we do
better?
Someone flew without SA, withinrange of the enemy's missiles,
and why didn't they have the SAto realize they were that close
before turning around?Ultimately, is back to you as
(08:00):
the lead. You had control ofyour foreship. They should be
aware, but if you told them tocommit downrange and then they
lost SA and you didn't have thatsense that things were starting
to break down and just telleveryone to turn cold and fly
away from the threat, then maybethat is a lesson for you as
(08:21):
well. Wow.
And then, with the Force ship,it also involves some of the
basic domestics, transiting toand from the base on the way to
the area with your three othermembers on your wing. Just being
a little bit more conscientiousof how you are maneuvering the
aircraft. Now you haveessentially a much less
(08:43):
maneuverable aircraft. If you'renot predictable, then that's
going to make it very difficultor unsafe for the other members.
Bryan (08:51):
Right. So that's basically kind of planning
around formation flying and justlike the fact that as a force
ship, you're much lessmaneuverable than just you and
your own jet being able to turnas you as you wish.
Brian (09:03):
Yeah. Exactly. And you have to focus on what the
mission is of the day. Like, youknow, if our objective is to as
offensive counter air, we haveto cover some strike package
that's going in. We are doing anair to air role, for example.
So, you're very focused on that.So, you'll have to have everyone
(09:27):
on the same level and that'swhere all the training comes
from. We're not going to talkabout more than ten minutes in
the brief. We're not going totalk about all the details of
formation flying, what we'redoing today. Just expect
everyone to know.
There's weather. We're going tobriefly touch on that, but we're
not going to go into it's notgoing to be a full brief on what
(09:50):
kind of approaches we're doing,how we're getting to and from
the airspace. It's just got tobe ten, fifteen minutes at most
for those basics. Notnecessarily that it's basic, but
just for those items that youjust need to be able to get to
the area of operation so you cando the mission. It It ends up
(10:10):
being quite a bit to think aboutif there is bad weather days
with a four ship and you have anew wingman that is not combat
ready upgrades.
You are trying to balanceeverything and then still get
the entire brief for themission.
Bryan (10:25):
Yeah. It sounds like a lot to think about. You were
also a qualified electronicwarfare instructor. And in
02/2017, you were posted to fourten tactical fighter operational
training squadron in Cold Lake.There, using your combat and
operational experience, youbegan training the next
generation of CF eighteenpilots.
What was it like to shift froman operator mindset and into a
(10:46):
mentorship role for youngpilots?
Brian (10:49):
It was an interesting shift. I definitely found so On
the squadron, as you get intothe more lead role in terms of
the formations, you are elementor section lead, you are
starting to mentor to theyounger guys, teach them as they
are coming through the squadron.But it's, again, as we mentioned
before, it's a little bitdifferent of a dynamic than when
(11:12):
you get to four where it's apurely, you know, we've got
students, we've got to getthrough the training, and they
don't have any background.Whereas the guys on squadron at
least have all the background of04:10 by the time they get
there, and you're building uponthat. So it was it was quite a
different shift in mentalitywhere now you have to go teach
from the basics.
How do you take off and landwith the Hornet? It was
(11:34):
exciting. There's somethingsomething special about being to
go being able to take someonefor their very first flight in
the Hornet and watch, you know,the nerves and everything, but
also just them coming downafterwards with a bit of a like,
oh, I did terrible, but Ienjoyed it. It's like, you
didn't do terrible. It's yourfirst time.
(11:56):
And just really see that, butjust the kind of, oh, wow,
moment they get after the flightand how much they realize they
have to go. So that wasdefinitely really exciting. The
training, you go through a wholeupgrade. Everything's an upgrade
in
Bryan (12:16):
the course. But
Brian (12:17):
go through a whole upgrade to be able to teach so
you're not going in cold. You'reyou're well prepared by the time
you get instructing thestudents. But it is a different
kind of training becausepreviously to that, on Squadron,
you were always instructing fromthe other jet. They were in
control of their own jet. Youwould give tips over the radio,
and most of the learning came inthe debrief and points would be
(12:42):
in the brief.
So now it was a whole differenttype of teaching because you
couldn't Now you're in thecockpit with them, the same type
of training tandem style we hadseen throughout our piloting
career. But there were alsoother opportunities to make
mistakes as an instructor. So itwas that whole learning of the
(13:07):
right keywords at the rightmoments can really help someone.
If you step in, if you pointtheir attention to one thing,
then their focus will be thereand they might miss something
else. So you have to be verycareful about what you are
referencing, what you aretalking about, and not talking
too much.
Is the thing you are noticingsomething minor? Can it wait? If
(13:29):
so, just keep your mouth shut.If it is something big, then
maybe you have to jump in andtake over the jet. So it was
definitely And that's somethingthat is hard to also just learn
through the training becauseinstructors playing students
aren't making the same type ofmistakes that students
necessarily make, or it's alittle bit more obvious, where
(13:51):
sometimes you can have a studentsort of insidiously lose their
essay.
And you have to be aware whenthey're starting to max out that
they may not speak up, thatthey've reached that point where
they're no longer payingattention to another aircraft.
They're supposed to be visual onthe lead aircraft, but they're
(14:15):
so focused in on their radarscreen or their targeting pod
that they're now starting todrift towards the other
aircraft. So you have to be, youknow, monitoring what they're
doing as well as trying to keep,you know, an eye out for safety
overall. But it definitelyprovides a learning that I
hadn't really experienced beforewhen you're teaching. Because on
(14:39):
Squadron, it was pretty easy topoint to errors or reference the
publications on where theyshould go and try and build more
information.
But when you're trying toexplain something from scratch,
your level of knowledge needs tobe higher for that. So I think
(15:00):
that's where I started to evenjust something as simple as the
one v one BFM maneuvering, it'sone thing to go out and be able
to do it confidently. But it'sanother. You can't just tell
other student, Just don't lose.That's not a valid teaching
(15:22):
technique.
To be able to pull out, Okay,what am I actually doing at each
point in this maneuver toaccomplish that goal? So I found
it challenging at the beginning,teaching some of those basics
because I hadn't been asked toverbalize exactly what do you do
at this exact moment, at thisexact time, to quite the same
(15:44):
level that you need to withstudents that are just fresh off
of a previous phase of flying.They think can't stay ahead of
the jet, but you can see thatthey're slowly building their
bucket. If you misspeak, it'salso very noticeable because
they will do what you said evenif you said it incorrectly. And
(16:05):
then you're like, well, that wasI was too vague in that
explanation, and now they aren'texecuting properly.
I need to take that on board andtry and refine how I'm teaching.
And that was kind of aniterative process that went
through. And that's also why youhave different experience levels
of instructors, is because thenyou can get that feedback from
(16:25):
the more senior instructors onhow your instructional story for
the student was. So it'scontinually learning. It's nice
with four ten, you go through acourse at a time, there's some
overlap, But you see them gofrom that first mission where
they felt so behind the jet,they thought they did awful and
(16:48):
you're like, no, no, you'redoing good.
You're exactly where you shouldbe at this phase. By the end of
it, you know, they don't eventhink about the basics, you
know, to and from. And they'rejust focused on that, those
mission objectives on eachsortie. And then coming away
from that, seeing how far theyprogressed and then they
(17:08):
graduate and, you know, you getto send them out to the
squadrons and just see them nowout and progressing with their
career. Was a really fulfillingrole as an instructor there.
The other nice thing about beingat four ten was I was also now a
little bit later in my fightercareer. And those early on
(17:31):
experiences on squadron, beingable to go on exercise,
traveling to Romania, going toAlaska, going in the QRA for
shift work. Now, was also at apoint in my life where I was
starting to look to have afamily and a little bit more
predictability, which was alsoreally nice because you're
Monday to Friday as opposed toyou know, you have a Saturday
(17:53):
evening shift in the queue orI'm gonna be gone for two months
on an operation. Yeah. Or we'regoing we would just do
deployments with the squadron,but we knew when they were
coming and it wasn't it was alittle bit more stable of a
lifestyle as well, which wasnice as a change for the family.
Bryan (18:09):
Yeah. A lot of people there's a lot of people out
there who just wanna stayoperational and they they kind
of dread going to a school insome capacity, whether that's
Portage or Moose Jaw or fourten. But it does provide that
stability. It does provide alittle bit of predictability,
and it's a lot easier on thefamilies.
Brian (18:27):
Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And we would still, you know,
try and do some work with thesquadrons, but we were a little
bit disconnected because theyare focused more on their
mission sets upgrades. On onehand, are honing your skills by
having to teach them, But on theother hand, being away from the
(18:49):
operational squadron, you arenot necessarily on the latest
cutting edge of what everyone isdoing for tactics.
Not that it changes drasticallyon the Hornet and you are trying
to teach at 04:10 what is beingused on the squadron. But you
can't just teach the mostadvanced things at the training
(19:09):
unit. It is a little bit more ofa non basic version, but isn't
the most complicated tactics wehave. So you refine your
abilities in some ways, but italso you can get a little bit
rusty on the training squadronas well in other ways. So it's a
(19:32):
it's a trade off, but it's worthit for anyone, to have that
experience.
Yeah. Because you don't want to,you don't wanna just stay
operational your entire careerwithout having seen a little bit
of the the other side of it.
Bryan (19:46):
Yeah. Yeah. I agree. So in 02/2019, you were selected as
the c f eighteen demonstrationpilot. How does one get selected
for this role?
Brian (19:56):
So there's when it's coming up for, you know, the
previous year, they they askwho's interested. You can put
your hand up, say, I'd like totry out for this. You have to
write a letter explaining yourreasons, what you would like to
do. And then they evaluate basedon your qualifications because
(20:18):
you you want someone a littlemore senior in the jet because
it is some more advanced notadvanced, but potentially more
dangerous flying and an abilityto able to go out, put on a safe
show, but an interesting show.And then there is a whole other
piece that they want to makesure you're prepared to really
(20:41):
do the bigger part of the job,which is, you know, after your
fifteen minutes of show is nowengaging with the public.
Yeah. So that's also really thethe more time consuming part of
that role, not necessarily theharder part. I think it's, you
know, equally as interesting,just a very time consuming part
because you wanna be availablejust as there was someone when I
(21:05):
was a young kid and saw a CF 18doing a demonstration, I wanted
to be the one there inspiringthat next, next pilot along the
line that can fly some futurejet. So that's a big part of
that. So when they're cominglooking at the selection for
that, they just were making sureit was a good fit.
Bryan (21:27):
Okay. What was it like to be the Hornet demo pilot? And
can you give us some of thehighlights of that experience?
Brian (21:34):
For the actual flying, it was some of the coolest flying.
It's not operational flying.It's the opposite of operational
flying. So it's not satisfyingin the same way of executing a
good mission, but it'ssatisfying in that, you know,
the crowd enjoyed it. And it'sjust no other times do you get
(21:55):
to fly that kind of routine.
So we train to fly low level.That's one of the skill sets
that any fighter pilot shouldhave because you may find
yourself whether you had todefensively react to some
airborne threat or if there's asurface to air missile, you end
(22:16):
up in a low level environment.But once you're down there,
you're looking to, you know,egress from the situation safely
or potentially, you know,depending on the tactics, you're
you're ingressing and egressingat low level. But what you're
not doing is a loop in front ofa crowd low level and then a
three sixty in afterburner,keeping it trying to fly
(22:39):
directly over as tight aspossible to the show line, you
know, getting to fly, sneakingbehind the crowd at high speed.
Like, it's just a differentcompletely different type of
flying that can't really beequated to anything we all else
we do.
Like, just even from the get go,the start of the, the routine
(23:01):
was the dirty roll, right aftertakeoff. So you would line up
there. You would actually trimout the jet differently. You had
a completely clean aircraft, soit performed its absolute best.
So that that includes all thepylons, which normally don't get
removed because the pylons hold,you know, your external fuel
tanks, your weapons.
So usually, the stuff attachedto that is removed. Well, in
(23:22):
this case, they removeeverything. Right from the get
go, you line up. You know,you're selecting burner with a
jet that is lighter than any jetyou normally fly, and you
accelerate to just a slightlyhigher speed than normal. And
it's just full back stick ontakeoff, which is not a thing
you would ever do with a planeotherwise because just burying
(23:44):
the stick in your lap on anormal takeoff is probably a
recipe to get yourself in insome trouble in terms of
airspeed or stalling theaircraft, but you just bury it
so that it pops off the ground.
And then, with the gear stillhanging, you're trying to roll
this aircraft and then bring itinto a loop while you're
retracting the gear and rightinto the show. So it was
Bryan (24:05):
That's crazy.
Brian (24:05):
It was a thrill. It was better than any roller coaster
because that kind of flying isisn't something you get to do
normally. My favorite thing todo on that show was the high g
three sixty. So you'd come alongthe show line and rate when you
got to show center, you'd do atwo seventy degree roll, so
(24:29):
towards the crowd, so you end uppointing away. And then with the
afterburner lit, just max gsustained rate three sixty.
And then once you're lined backup at the show line, you're up
into a loop. And it it justalways it was very because you
could see the crowd, and youcould tell they're just
(24:50):
watching, and you're having fun.It was just an experience that I
hadn't had before. Yeah. But itwas also very demanding because,
I mean, that that is a high highrisk scenario now is that, you
know, maneuvering low to theground.
So I was always on the radiowith a safety pilot. He's I'm
calling out the altitudesanytime I'm doing anything up
(25:14):
over the top, like a loop, forexample, I'm calling out the
altitudes. Because if I call itout wrong or if I if I start to,
you know, sound like I I'm notcompletely in control, he can
just knock off the show. So if Ior if I misverbalize an
altitude, then he'll he'll bethere to back me up so that I've
always got that safety bufferthat we've trained for because
(25:37):
it's a repetitive process thatyou start out in training with
the previous demo pilot and yougo through the same routine over
and over again, starting from ahigher altitude and stepping it
down, stepping it down, thatuntil you can do every maneuver
essentially flawlessly. Becausethere there is a buffer between
(25:58):
you and the ground, but it's nota big buffer.
So you don't want to be bustingany sort of top altitudes or
getting slow when you're tryingto recover. It's just got to be
very precise. So the whole showonly lasted about fifteen
minutes, and that was a fulltank of internal gas right down
to pretty much bingo because theuse of afterburner just it's
(26:21):
gonna you're pretty much leavingin it leaving it in as long as
possible, which is using aninsane amount of fuel. Very
demanding on the body, but atleast it's for a short period.
And then same with any of ourflying that we do.
There's always a brief with theground. The public affairs
officer and the safety officer,because the public affairs is
(26:45):
the one doing all the announcingthroughout all the music to it.
So we we just go through theroutine every time. I'm sure
that people that watch theSnowbirds have seen, something
similar, how they talk throughthe entire performance, before
the show. Then after, we do adebrief.
Ours is a little bit quickerthan theirs. Quick, shorter
show. And then, go out andmingle with the crowd, enjoy,
(27:10):
just hanging out with people andget to see the rest of the show.
So that was a it it was veryexciting flying, and, I'm glad I
got that opportunity.
Bryan (27:20):
Yeah. That sounds like an amazing opportunity.
Brian (27:23):
One of the other highlights, on the demo is I did
not just the routine, though. Ihad the opportunity to fly with
some other aircraft. So one ofthe there was a few, like, I got
to fly with a, an originalVampire, if anyone knows what
that is. It's a very old jet.
Bryan (27:41):
Oh, wow.
Brian (27:43):
Information as and it would just be, you know, some
basic passes that, wereinformation, past the crowd a
few different directions. Therewas, yeah, actually, quite a few
warbirds I got to fly with, ButI think the the most interesting
one was, Chris Hatfield and hisSpitfire. We got to, do a flyby
(28:03):
in So Ontario with that was thatwas quite neat. Something, that
I'd never thought I'd be flyingformation with a Spitfire
before. And, it was it was veryinteresting just being able to,
you know, get a look at thatplane, fly next to it, really,
enjoy having that experience.
Experience. Yeah.
Bryan (28:24):
That's awesome. And Chris Hadfield was flying it? Yes.
Yep. That's crazy.
Brian (28:29):
Yeah. Yeah. It was it was interesting meeting him.
Bryan (28:32):
Yeah. I bet. So let's get into your current posting Flight
Training School in DecimomanoAir Base in Italy. How did the
opportunity to be posted therecome about?
Brian (28:44):
So for the opportunity for that, I had heard rumors
that a posting like that wasgonna open up. We knew there was
going to be some internationaltraining available. So, I went
to my boss at the time and said,If this does become an option,
please let me know and I wouldbe very interested. I was kind
(29:05):
of in the right place at theright time because
qualifications required forthat. They wanted someone with,
you know, some four shipexperience.
They wanted someone that wasteaching at 04:10. So the
training experience with time onthe jet. So it all kind of lined
up, I was getting to a point at04:10 where it was coming up on
another posting anyway. So itjust worked out that I had the
(29:30):
qualifications, and my bosssaid, yeah. Well, I'll go to bat
for you.
And then, I was able to getselected for this role.
Bryan (29:38):
Awesome.
Advertisement (29:39):
KF Aerospace, Canada's largest MRO and
founding partner in Skyline forthe future aircrew training
program, is proud to be theexclusive North American dealer
for the Grove 120TP. The Grove120TP is a world class training
aircraft combining turbinepower, advanced avionics, side
by side seating, and fullaerobatic capability. Already
(30:01):
trusted by the German Air Force,Canada's Future Air Crew
Training Program, and militariesworldwide, it's built to deliver
performance and reliability.With its versatility, the GROBE
120TP is the ideal platform forboth military training and
civilian programs, includingupset recovery training. Go to
kfaero.ca, that's kfaero.ca, tolearn more and get in touch with
(30:27):
us.
Bryan (30:30):
What do your duties as senior national representative
for Canada consist of?
Brian (30:35):
So it's kind of two roles. So my SNR, senior
national representative, is justthe connection liaison between
the training squadron here inItaly and back in the division.
I am not bridge for most of theoperational stuff with the
(31:00):
direct link to the squadron. Thestudents here, I'm kind of like
what you can consider, you know,a flight commander for them
because we have eight studentshere right now, and the next two
are showing up next week. So wehave quite a number of students.
So helping them initially beforethey get here, getting all the
(31:21):
administrative work done,everything that needs to be done
to get students to a programwith all the support from the
home unit because they're comingfrom Moose Jaw before they come
here. And then any feedback orif there's any issues, that's
where my sort of administrativerole as the SNR come in. And
then the other side of that isI'm an instructor on the
(31:44):
aircraft here. So and with that,I work in the their tactics and
standards division. So it'sflying with the students.
I try and fly with the Canadianstudents as much as I can, but
it's flying with all thestudents here. There's quite a
number of nationalities here. Iwanna say over a dozen. Oh, wow.
But I'd have to actually go andlook how many are here.
(32:08):
But, I mean, we have Italy beingbig one, but we also have Great
Britain. US has an instructorand some students on the way. We
have Sweden, Germany, Spain,Qatar. Who else am I missing?
There's a few others that arehere as well.
So it's quite a biginternational group here. And
(32:31):
then there's instructors from abunch of those different
countries as well. So we have Ifly with Canadians some days,
fly with students from differentcountries other days. And it's
all phase four flying. Thatequivalent of IFF that we had
talked about at NGEP.
Post wings flying. So they'recoming here as winged pilots,
(32:56):
and this is their transitionbetween, that course, which, is
the phase three Harvard andgoing on to the Hornet. So this
is that in between.
Bryan (33:07):
But they arrive with their wings now. Right?
Brian (33:09):
Yeah. Exactly. So this unlike NGEP where they have all
phases going there, this Italyhas different phases. Obviously,
same type of program. But atthis base, specifically, it's
just phase four.
So this is only winged pilots.We're not teaching the basics
here. This is straight into howto fly a jet like a fighter jet.
Bryan (33:34):
Okay. Can you tell us about the lead in fighter
training or lift course there inItaly?
Brian (33:43):
So the course, kinda like the course I described at four
ten, it actually is a very goodmirror of it. When they arrive
here, the students will gothrough ground school, as you
would expect, and then they areinto the qual phase. Doing the
basics, learning how totransition to this, take off and
(34:04):
land, basic formation flyingwith it. Because even though
they have done that before andthey have their wings, each jet
is different. So they have tolearn how to fly instrument
flight on this.
It's a lot newer than whatthey've been flying previously.
So it has some more of the niceaids for flying autopilot. It's
(34:26):
got a HUD, stuff like that. Sotransitioning to it. And it is
quite a bit more capable thanHarvard.
So there's a little bit of alearning curve when they
initially get onto it. So that'sthe qual phase. And then they'll
move into the air to air and airto ground, the more tactical
phase. And then it mirrors whatyou would see on the Hornet. So
(34:48):
starting off in the air to airphase, you're going be doing
your 1v1 BFM, 2v1 ACM, and thenonto the BVR.
And then same with air toground, same type of phases. And
where this jet really excelscompared to the t 38, which was
an excellent jet, but it's oldat this point. They've upgraded
(35:10):
it, the one being used in NGEP.But it and same with the Hawk.
I'm not trying to call out onespecific jet or not.
It's just a different generationof aircraft. So Mhmm. When I
went through training on the t38, and that's why I'm picking
on it, I remember from trainingyou wouldn't be able to simulate
(35:32):
much with it when you're talkingabout the more advanced tactics.
So, you could do 1v1, but whenyou're talking about simulating
a missile, you just point at theother guy within a visual
environment and call that yourshot. Now, with the T-three 46,
it has the ability to simulatewhat you would expect on a
(35:53):
modern fighter jet within it.
So for the air to air, it hassimulated radar. So we don't
have an actual radar becausethat you know, it's the cost
versus complexity of trainer.But all the jets are on a common
data link. So you can have yourtwo aircraft flying. You can
(36:19):
have adversary aircraft.
You can simulate taking anAMRAAM, your beyond visual range
radar guided missile. And theother aircraft is going to, on
his radar warning receiver, knowthat his aircraft is being
targeted by your radar. Eventhough you don't have an actual
radar, it's just that syntheticdata link being, communicated
(36:41):
between the two. And then he'llget a hit notification when his
jet actually has been struck bya missile. So you're seeing what
you would see on a radar in thef 18.
You're seeing that in thisaircraft. So it's a whole lot
more advanced in terms oftraining than what I got just
because the capabilities are nowthere. So the course is nine
months long. And that mirrorspretty much what the guys are
(37:04):
going to see at four ten. It'sall the same phases.
Whereas when I went through onIFF, I want to say that was
three to four months, whichgives you a good introduction to
the fighter type training. Butnow this is going beyond that
with all the ability to createdifferent threats in the air so
(37:29):
that you can actually train toall the mission sets that a real
jet would see. So we have theability when we start talking
about, you know, within visualrange, it stimulates that you're
actually using a heat seekingmissile. So it will lock on, and
you'll see in your HUD that it'sgot a lock both with the radar,
(37:50):
with the IR missile. You can seewhen then you if you maneuver
too much that it breaks thatlock.
They can simulate putting outchaff and flare that will affect
that. And then you move into thebeyond visual range. When you
start employing, you can havesomeone at a console at the
squadron. And this is somethingI do as well because everyone
takes different positions. Youhave someone at the console at
(38:12):
the squadron who's alsooperating as the ground
controller for the intercepts,calling out, you know, all of
the different threats.
But they also can control andinput red air or, like, aircraft
into the air that, obviously,you're not gonna see visually,
but it appears like on yourradar, on all your sensors, that
(38:34):
there's other aircraft outthere. So you have to start
targeting them Wow. Between thetwo of you, and you can see
that. And then when you starttalking about air to ground,
it's not just point at theground, press a button to
simulate a dumb weapon, and dumbas in, like, unguided. Now
you're talking about we have asynthetic targeting pod.
(38:56):
So I mentioned the targeting podbefore where you would, you
know, use it to zoom in and outfor either air to ground threats
or interior to air threats.Well, now this has essentially
you're looking at that same typeof display. We don't have an
actual targeting pod on board,but you have a whole image
database of the area you'reoperating in. So you can zoom in
(39:18):
on buildings. You can tell whichones are higher fidelity, so
it's not a perfectrepresentation.
But if you have someonesimulating that they're on the
ground, we work with real armyJTACs on the ground here. They
will be able to talk you on withyour sensors using that
synthetic targeting pod and thenyou can employ your weapons on
(39:43):
that. There are limitations.They can't talk you onto a car
because that is not in thedatabase. But the buildings and
you can see the coastline,everything like that as you are
maneuvering with that.
And then having all thesimulated air to ground weapons,
which if you're going to try andlaze in a weapon, it's similar
(40:05):
mechanics to the Hornet. So it'svery transferable skills. It's
going to be a big step up fromwhat they had seen previously,
but it should hopefully bridgethe gap and make a small step
when they get to the Hornet. Andit's also a lot more powerful
than previous generations oftrainers. So the thrust, the
weight of this is quite a bithigher than what I'd previously
(40:29):
experienced on trainers.
So it's a supersonic capablejet. It has, you know, not the
thrust of a Hornet, but quite abit more thrust compared to
previous training of similartype roles. They have twin
(40:49):
engine, about 6,000 pounds ofthrust each. Compared to the
Hornet, was 10,000 to 12,000pounds of thrust per engine. So
we're talking, you know, and alittle bit more an afterburner
on the Hornet.
So we're talking about, youknow, a third a third the
thrust, but that's quite a bitcloser than previous generations
(41:10):
of trainers have been. So italso feels more like the Hornet
when you do that maneuveringcompared to previous aircraft
where they they were a bit morelimited. So, like, the Hornet is
seven and a half g capable. Thisone's actually eight g capable.
So it's Wow.
It it can pull, you know, the g.It has the thrust for the
(41:31):
training. So the students aren'tgonna see a big jump in
performance. They'll see a jumpin performance going to the
Hornet, but it's not going tobe, you know, light years ahead
in performance compared to howit was potentially before.
Bryan (41:45):
So it won't be basically like as big of a jump as it was
to go from, say, the t 38 Yeah.And then up to the Hornet?
Brian (41:53):
Yeah. Exactly. Like, compare the Hawk or the t 38 to
the three forty six. The threeforty six is probably 50% more
thrust than either of those.
Bryan (42:02):
Okay.
Brian (42:03):
And higher g, tighter turn radius. And it's it also
allows you because it it's builtwith that more training fly by
wire mentality, you can selecthow much performance you want in
terms of the G and capability.So if you want to simulate a
(42:25):
less capable radar, you can dialit back, and it'll pull SG so
that the student can have a bitof an advantage. Or then you can
go full up or increase theamount of alpha it can pull. So
it's very flexible in that.
And the HOTAS, your hands onthrottle and stick, which is how
you're going to control all yoursensors, it's also very
(42:47):
analogous to the Hornet. It'sactually almost identical in the
stick. The throttles are alittle bit different, but it's
just learning where all thebuttons are. Some of the buttons
do different things. In one ofthem, chaff and flare switch
might be a weapon select,something like that, but that's
easy to transition as long asnow you have the basic idea of
(43:09):
if I'm controlling the radar,how I'm controlling it with my
HOTAS.
So it makes for a very simplenot a simple transition, but it
should be easier. Because I doremember coming from the t 38
and then trying to learn theradar, all the BVR, everything
was new. In the Hornet, all theair to ground weapons were all
(43:31):
new. So that shouldn't be thecase anymore.
Bryan (43:34):
Yeah. It sounds like this is providing, like, a really
high fidelity, very, very highquality training experience to
the students.
Brian (43:43):
Yeah. Yeah. And it also creates some flexibility too
because, we can link the simswith the flight and with that
ground control station. Say weneed to do something where you
don't necessarily need twoaircraft in flight, but it is
normally a two aircraft typemission. A good example is a QRA
(44:04):
intercept.
Here are a scenario. You mighthave the lead aircraft doing the
actual intercept and the numbertwo aircraft sitting in a shadow
position, up high and behind,being able to monitor this
scenario, ready to engage ifneeded. For the training here,
(44:24):
we don't necessarily need tohave a physical aircraft in that
shadow position that's notinteracting. So what we do is we
have the student in the sim. So,in the in the actual jet, the
red air will take off, go out tothe area, lead will take off,
over the radio, talking to thesim, and the sim sees his lead
(44:47):
on the runway and they're linedup on the runway together.
We'll call for the same takeoff,departure, all the same calls.
And in the SIM, he's flying nextto his lead, and they're talking
back and forth, making all thesame radio calls, doing all the
same stuff that you would as ifyou had two jets. Wow. The only
difference being is that thelead aircraft, the one that's
actually in flight, if he looksover his shoulder, no one's
(45:09):
there. But the guy in the simwho asked to actually stay
visual throughout the entirescenario, he sees leads aircraft
in the position in a sim as itis currently in flight.
Bryan (45:19):
That's incredible.
Brian (45:21):
Yeah. It's it's very cool to see, and it works quite well.
Bryan (45:23):
And that's a huge cost saver too when it comes to
training costs.
Brian (45:27):
Yeah. Exactly. So in that case, you save one aircraft per
sortie of that sortie typebecause only the lead aircraft
is gonna close into visual rangeof the Red Air. So you don't
need the second aircraftactually to be in flight to get
the same training opportunity.
Bryan (45:43):
Wow. From what I hear, the course can be challenging
for Canadians who've only flownthe Harvard and then make the
jump to the three four six. Doyou find that's true?
Brian (45:53):
Somewhat. It's it's hard for me to judge coming onto this
with experience. And we haven'thad anyone really struggle
significantly, but theydefinitely, you know, report
back to me after some of theirflights or when we're seeing it
together that, you know, theythey are finding they're a
little bit behind the jetinitially. But that's also true
(46:15):
of anyone coming onto thisbecause it's always a bit of a
jump up, but it can be just alittle bit more of a handful.
It's not hard to fly a handfultype, but you are just going
faster than they were before, sothey have to be thinking a
little quicker.
It can be hard to slow down,surprisingly. If you are
(46:36):
descending more than fivedegrees, it may start to want to
pick up speed on you, even atidle. So if you're at like a
six, seven degree descent andyou haven't slowed down before
you start your descent, you mayfind yourself with too much
speed as you get to that, youknow, holding point or whatever
it is. They have to they alsoare trying to do all that while
(46:57):
getting used to some of the EUrules. It's their first time
probably not setting thealtimeter at flight level one
eight zero.
The first time they have toremember to set it at 6,000. The
the radio calls, for the mostpart, it's second language for
most of the people flying aroundhere. So it's they have to be
(47:20):
really on their game, preciselistening and speaking so that
they aren't creating anyconfusion. So it's the first, I
think, month of flying is a bigstep up. Just new country, new
environment, new aircraft.
But, we send them well prepared.So it's not too not too bad of a
jump. And they've, you know,they do, all the required prep,
(47:43):
lots of study time. They've gota pretty good facility here
where, you know, when we weregoing through training, we had a
poster on a wall to do ourchecks. Now they have two rooms
with like 10 large touch screenswith a full seat and stick and
throttle that you sit and youcan finger poke everything for
all your startup checks throughto study through your entire
mission.
(48:03):
And that's their version of a,you know, paper cockpit on a
wall.
Bryan (48:08):
That's huge. Yeah. What training did you have to go
through when you arrived inorder to qualify as an
instructor?
Brian (48:15):
So the, instructor pilot upgrade here is very similar to
what the students go through. Soit takes about nine months for
the students to go through allthe phases here, which includes,
you know, everything from whatwe've talked about. They get to
drop some ordinance on the rangehere. They're learning all the
(48:37):
basics of the jet initially,everything we've talked about.
It's the same for the IPs.
The only difference is you splityour time front and back seat.
So whereas a student may do fourfront seats, just training
formation flight missions, youas the IP will now do two from
the front seat to learn it andthen two from the back seat
(48:59):
where you're having another IPin the front pretending to be
the student.
Bryan (49:03):
Okay.
Brian (49:04):
So you you have the same length of course, pretty much
all the same sorties. It's justhalf of them are front seat
where you learn it and then youdo the other half from the back
seat where you learn to teachit.
Bryan (49:19):
So you're at you're going through, like, kind of swapping
back and forth between being thestudent and being the
instructor. You're learning thecourse at the same time as also
learning to instruct?
Brian (49:31):
Yeah. Exactly. And you're going through you'll be paired
up on a course with otherstudents, not just instructor
pilots, but if they're starting,you know, 10 students that
month, there might be oneinstructor or two instructors on
that course. So you'll prep fora mission with another student.
It could be a Canadian studentgoing through straight off of
(49:53):
phase three your BFM sortie.
And you'll prep it together. Andthen one day you might be flying
in the front seat, get thefeedback on how you did fly it
again from the front seat, getthe feedback. And then, you
know, the third flight, nowyou're gonna have to give the
brief and fly it from the ormonitor it from the back seat as
(50:18):
you would a student.
Bryan (50:19):
Okay.
Brian (50:19):
And, you know, and the other aircraft might be an
actual student from your coursethat you're paired up with. So
you do pretty much the samesyllabus and you get a chance
sort of a demo do type mentalitythroughout the course.
Bryan (50:32):
Okay. As a qualified instructor on the course, where
do you typically see studentsstruggle?
Brian (50:39):
It's hard to say if there is one place. I think early on,
depending on what theirbackground is, some can struggle
a little bit with the language.Obviously, if they've done all
their instruction in their homecountry, the language of
instruction is English. But noteveryone is coming with the
(51:01):
exact same level. So that can bechallenging for some guys early
on trying to get all the rightcalm out because it's very sort
of set calm.
But when things are starting tobe a little bit more dynamic, if
they aren't as comfortable, itcan be challenging. But you see
that progress pretty quick oncethey get a feel for the jet, a
little more capacity. And thenit all depends on from there.
(51:26):
Some guys, if they have a verystrong background, then they
tend to do fairly well. But it'salso unique in that the course
is a bit modular.
You don't have to take everysingle piece of the course. So,
a country that doesn't do air toair refueling, for example,
(51:48):
would not take the air to airrefueling module. So if a
country has less has purchasedless modules, well, they might
be weaker in some areas at theend. So if we're doing they
haven't they don't do any of theair to ground range where they
have a bunch of practiceattempts at deliveries of
weapons, they may not be ascompetent in that one area at
(52:11):
the end. But, you know, it's notthe focus and you tailor the the
training to that.
Bryan (52:16):
Okay.
Brian (52:16):
So you can see a little bit different in experience. And
then different countries, eachhave their own little bit
different lead in wingstraining. So if someone's coming
through, the the Italian phasetwo and three, they're gonna
have a little bit differentbackground than a British person
that came through the phasethree there where they, you
(52:38):
know, Canadians, Brits, whoevermight have to learn not
significantly different, butslightly different to even just
basics of formation, forexample, for, you know, what
something's called. So it's it'seasy to get past some of those
hurdles, but they're not alwaysexpected by the students because
(53:00):
they, you know, they think theyhave a they think they
understand a concept. It's like,well, you actually said that the
Canadian way.
Here's what they want here. Andthat's true of anything. And but
once we get past that initialqual phase where, you know,
language training differenceskind of kind of don't matter as
(53:21):
much because now everything isnew. Now, one v one or air to
ground deliveries are new foreveryone. It doesn't matter what
their background is.
It kind of all once they getqualified on the jet, they're
they're pretty much all at thesame base level.
Bryan (53:36):
Yeah. That makes sense. When Canadian students finish
this course, what's next forthem?
Brian (53:42):
So from here, they are going direct to the Hornet.
Well, there will be a little bitof wait time in between. There
always is. But they are going tothe Hornet course. Four ten has
been looking around, seeing howthey can take advantage of the
longer and a bit more advancedtraining that they experience
here and see if they can usethat to tweak the training
(54:05):
syllabus at four ten.
So, right now, they will go tofour ten with other grads from
this program, with other gradsfrom IFTS, and then they will
have separate four ten coursesfrom all the grads coming from
NGEP. Right now, we still havestudents going to both. It will
be a course from Italy, a coursefrom Engep, course from Italy,
(54:28):
Engep, and they will bounce backand forth between the two
courses as they go through. Thatway, they can tailor their
program there based on the typeof training they got. So, it's
pretty much everyone coming outof here though is guaranteed a
spot on the Hornet.
Bryan (54:47):
That's pretty awesome. And and that makes sense that
they're separating those coursesbased just based on what you've
said. Like, not that there'sanything not that there's
anything wrong with the trainingyou get at NJET by any means,
but just that they are soundslike pretty different in terms
of the generation of jet you'reflying. And so you just have
different experiences.
Brian (55:06):
Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. That's what we had at NGEP is
the same product when I wentthrough, you know, with minor
upgrades. It's the same productof a pilot they're producing
now.
So it's just able to go thatnext step further with IFTS.
Bryan (55:25):
Okay. Okay. So we're getting close to the end of our
interview. So we're gonna do ourclassic final three questions.
With all the experience youhave, what is one thing you've
learned that you need to do inorder to stay ready to do your
job?
Brian (55:40):
Think it's not necessarily to stay ready, but
it's to stay focused becauseit's easy to get bogged down in
the you know, all the littlestuff that the military life
brings with it. And you can kindof get bummed out. Things aren't
going your way. And it's just tokeep going and not let those
(56:03):
things that are outside yourcontrol drag you down. Yes.
You know, as a student, you'llsee that kind of thing where
there's something frustratingabout the training system. You
have no control over that. Evenas, you know, an SNR in Italy,
there would be things I wouldlike to see done differently,
but it's not my program. And youjust have to accept that is how
(56:25):
it is and Yeah. You know, notlet that affect your mood.
Or if it does affect your mood,just, you know, go out on
Friday, complain about it withyour friends, and then move past
it. Because if you dwell onthose things outside of your
control, it it just will becomeoverwhelming trying to think
about everything that you haveno effect on.
Bryan (56:46):
Yeah. In your experience in both the operational and
training worlds, what makes agreat fighter pilot?
Brian (56:54):
What makes a great fighter pilot, I think, is just
really the ability to kindacommit to it. Because if if your
heart's not in it when you'reearly on, it's not gonna get
better. You you want to be surethis is something you wanna give
a shot. Because when it does gettough, when there is a lot going
(57:17):
on, when you you feel likeyou're maxed out, then you have
to be able to just kind of,yeah, be sure that you're on the
right goal. And even if you'renot sure, just be committed that
I will, know, fly my best todayand try and learn as much as I
can, and that's all I can do.
Because if if you start tosecond, you know, doubt yourself
(57:40):
at any point, then you're gonnalook at how much effort you're
putting into it, and it's justgonna spiral. So you have to
just kinda commit even if evenif you're struggling. It's it's
kind of a commitment game.
Bryan (57:52):
Okay. If you were in the Moose Jaw mess today and you ran
into someone who wanted to be afighter pilot, what would your
advice to them be?
Brian (58:00):
I mean, just go for it. I know some people are on the
fence sometimes about it. But ifyou if you wanna do it, I mean,
you just gotta you try. And ifit's not, meant to be, then it's
just not gonna work. But all youcan do is try.
And then if you get there, youget there. And if not, there's
(58:20):
always gonna be otheropportunities.
Bryan (58:22):
Right on. Okay, Brian. That's gonna wrap up our chat
for today. It was so cool tohear about your career and to
catch up. Like, you know, wehaven't seen each other since
Moose Jaw.
So to get a chance to just hearhow you're doing, hear what
you've done, to hear that weoperated in some of the same
theaters was really neat. It'sbeen great to learn about the
LIFT program in Italy. And I'mreally looking forward to
(58:45):
getting together with one ofyour students, Eli, who attended
the LIFT course as well to hearabout it from the student
perspective. So thank you somuch for being here today. I
really appreciate it.
Brian (58:54):
You're welcome.
Bryan (58:55):
Okay. That wraps up our chat with my good buddy, Brian
Kilroy, all about his time as aninstructor on the F eighteen
Hornet, as well as his currentrole as senior national
representative for the LIFTprogram in Italy. For our next
episode, we'll be closing outthis three part series by
sitting down with Eli, a recentgraduate of the LIFT program, so
that we can get a view of thecourse from the student's
(59:16):
perspective. Do you have anyquestions or comments about
anything you've heard in thisshow? Would you or someone you
know make a great guest, or doyou have a great idea for a
show?
You can reach out to us at thepilotprojectpodcast@Gmail.com or
on all social media at at podpilot project. And be sure to
check out that social media forlots of great videos of our RCAF
and Mission Aviation aircraft.As always, we'd like to thank
(59:38):
you for tuning in and ask foryour help with the big three.
That's like and follow us onsocial media, share with your
friends, and follow and rate usfive stars wherever you get your
podcasts. That's all for now.
Thanks for listening. Keep theblue side up. See you. Engineer,
shut down all four. Shuttingdown all four.
This podcast is presented by Skies Magazine. If
you're interested in theCanadian aviation industry,
Skies is your go to multimediaresource for the latest news,
in-depth features, stunningphotography, and insightful
video coverage. Whether you'rean aviation professional or
enthusiast, Sky's is dedicatedto keeping you informed and
bringing your passion foraviation to life. Visit
(00:21):
skysmag.com to learn more andsubscribe to stay updated on all
things Canadian aviation.
Bryan (00:58):
Alright. We're ready for departure here at the pilot
project podcast, the best sourcefor stories and advice from RCAF
and mission aviation pilotsbrought to you by Sky's
Magazine. I'm your host, BrianMorrison. With me today is my
comrade from the phase twoHarvard course in Moose Jaw,
major Brian Humza Kilroy, a CFeighteen Hornet pilot as well as
current senior nationalrepresentative for Canada and
(01:19):
qualified instructor on the tthree forty six at the
International Flight TrainingSchool in Italy. Brian, thank
you once again for being on theshow.
It is great to catch up with youand I'm happy you're here today.
Brian (01:29):
Thanks for having me.
Bryan (01:31):
Listeners can check out part one to hear about Brian's
early flying days, his time intraining on the Hornet as well
as some of his operational andexercise experiences. And for
today, we'll be focusing on histime as an instructor as well as
the lift program in Italy. Soone of the many qualifications
you got during your time on thec f 18 Hornet was four ship
(01:53):
lead. Can you tell our listenerswhat that is and why it's
significant?
Brian (01:57):
Yeah. We've already talked about some of the other
upgrades that I had gone throughalong the way. And then After
getting complete on four ten anddoing the combat ready upgrade
on squadron, this entire time,are what we call a wingman or a
number two, a dash two in theformation. Element is a two
(02:21):
ship. That is your basicformation.
No one else goes out therealone, kind of like the army
would talk about a fire teambuddy. You operate everything
basically as a two shipthroughout. So your initial
upgrades, everything you've donein your training up to that
point is that number two role inthe formation. Once you've done
(02:41):
that, though, you've started tobuild some experience on
Squadron. You've seen a littlebit of time.
You start to understand all thecapabilities of the the Hornet.
Now you start to move over intothat lead position. That's your
two ship upgrade. And you startto operate in that bigger
formation, which is called asection. So, you know, there's
two two ships in there.
There's make up that section,and that four ship now is your
(03:04):
basic sort of fighting formationthat you would operate in any
sort of wartime environment. Soyou have your number one
position, your lead. That isreally in control of the entire
force ship. Number two iswingman position. Number three
being another lead, but they'renot in charge of the whole
(03:27):
formation.
They're just in charge of theirelement. And number four being
that other element. So as youstart to go up in complexity,
you need more experience in theaircraft, and then you can start
doing the upgrade. And again,it's the same same upgrade
essentially that you would haveseen previously. But now for the
two ship, you'll still focus onsome of those basic
(03:50):
fundamentals.
But you're operating less so inthe 1v1 environment because that
doesn't take a lead and awingman role. Now you're
starting to talk about, in thattwo v one and into the BVR where
you're having everything as atwo ship or more. And again,
that's the same with the fourship, which is what you're
(04:11):
ultimately striving for as alead role, is to be able to take
a force ship, and now you canactually break down some of your
tactics. You don't just have asingle aircraft that has, you
know, its weapons it can employ.Now you have three other
aircraft that you're gonna beessentially in control of and
communicate your intentions.
Make a plan how you're gonna dothis air to air scenario. So if
(04:34):
you have, for example, four redair and four blue air, what kind
of tactics can you do? If it isa single 1v1, then you will only
be able to point at them, firemissiles, turn around. But now,
with multiple aircraft, you canhave different stages, either
employing supporting missiles toimpact, they can be assessing,
(04:55):
trying to gain ground, orturning around to try and flow
away from the fight. So you canhave a very dynamic scenario,
which is what you are going totry and use to keep control of
your area of operation.
You are not just going to focussolely on just your aircraft.
You have to think bigger picturenow. How do I fit into this
(05:17):
whole scenario? You start to tryand think more in the bigger
tactical picture as opposed towhat your jet is doing in this
very moment. You have to thinkabout what is everyone else's
jet doing.
And then you start to look at,you know, that I mentioned later
or previously, the, missioncommander that you see at the,
(05:41):
like, maple flag or red flag.They're taking those four ship
elements and trying to cover offthe entire scenario. So, you
have to know what the biggerpicture is, what they're looking
for your ultimate goals are, andhow are you gonna execute that.
And that is really what itbreaks down to. A lot of people
that play DCS probably start toexperiment with some of those
(06:02):
tactics that, you know, we can'tget into all the details on, but
that's essentially what we'retrying to do.
Bryan (06:08):
Okay. Well, it sounds like that could get pretty
overwhelming pretty quickly.Like, did you find that was a
pretty intense upgrade to gothrough?
Brian (06:17):
Yeah. You are definitely because at that point, you are a
bit more experienced, so you area bit more comfortable with your
own jet. But now, it is tryingto do those same things, employ
the same missiles, maneuver thesame, but while keeping track of
everyone else. It definitelyquickly gets overwhelming at
(06:38):
times. It always comes back tolesson learned.
If you are against red team onthe other side there, trying and
you're trying to protect, youknow, say, Cold Lake, it's a
defensive, counter air scenario.So you have a line that you're
trying to let no strikers pastbecause that means they have got
(06:58):
bombs on target. There's air toair threats. You you start to
maybe lose track of one of thestrikers that's down low because
you you've been focused up high,and then you're trying to get
everyone's SA back on that, youknow, with help from GCI.
Bryan (07:14):
And for the listeners, GCI is ground control intercept.
Brian (07:18):
Or you don't quite have the SA, of where your formation
is and someone goes too close tothe red air before turning
around and takes a missile,simulated missile, of course. We
chalk that up to a one bluedeath in that scenario, which is
maybe a bit gruesome, but that'show you got to train. And then
(07:39):
you go back to the debrief andsay, Okay, we lost one or two
members of our formation. Howdid that happen? What can we do
better?
Someone flew without SA, withinrange of the enemy's missiles,
and why didn't they have the SAto realize they were that close
before turning around?Ultimately, is back to you as
(08:00):
the lead. You had control ofyour foreship. They should be
aware, but if you told them tocommit downrange and then they
lost SA and you didn't have thatsense that things were starting
to break down and just telleveryone to turn cold and fly
away from the threat, then maybethat is a lesson for you as
(08:21):
well. Wow.
And then, with the Force ship,it also involves some of the
basic domestics, transiting toand from the base on the way to
the area with your three othermembers on your wing. Just being
a little bit more conscientiousof how you are maneuvering the
aircraft. Now you haveessentially a much less
(08:43):
maneuverable aircraft. If you'renot predictable, then that's
going to make it very difficultor unsafe for the other members.
Bryan (08:51):
Right. So that's basically kind of planning
around formation flying and justlike the fact that as a force
ship, you're much lessmaneuverable than just you and
your own jet being able to turnas you as you wish.
Brian (09:03):
Yeah. Exactly. And you have to focus on what the
mission is of the day. Like, youknow, if our objective is to as
offensive counter air, we haveto cover some strike package
that's going in. We are doing anair to air role, for example.
So, you're very focused on that.So, you'll have to have everyone
(09:27):
on the same level and that'swhere all the training comes
from. We're not going to talkabout more than ten minutes in
the brief. We're not going totalk about all the details of
formation flying, what we'redoing today. Just expect
everyone to know.
There's weather. We're going tobriefly touch on that, but we're
not going to go into it's notgoing to be a full brief on what
(09:50):
kind of approaches we're doing,how we're getting to and from
the airspace. It's just got tobe ten, fifteen minutes at most
for those basics. Notnecessarily that it's basic, but
just for those items that youjust need to be able to get to
the area of operation so you cando the mission. It It ends up
(10:10):
being quite a bit to think aboutif there is bad weather days
with a four ship and you have anew wingman that is not combat
ready upgrades.
You are trying to balanceeverything and then still get
the entire brief for themission.
Bryan (10:25):
Yeah. It sounds like a lot to think about. You were
also a qualified electronicwarfare instructor. And in
02/2017, you were posted to fourten tactical fighter operational
training squadron in Cold Lake.There, using your combat and
operational experience, youbegan training the next
generation of CF eighteenpilots.
What was it like to shift froman operator mindset and into a
(10:46):
mentorship role for youngpilots?
Brian (10:49):
It was an interesting shift. I definitely found so On
the squadron, as you get intothe more lead role in terms of
the formations, you are elementor section lead, you are
starting to mentor to theyounger guys, teach them as they
are coming through the squadron.But it's, again, as we mentioned
before, it's a little bitdifferent of a dynamic than when
(11:12):
you get to four where it's apurely, you know, we've got
students, we've got to getthrough the training, and they
don't have any background.Whereas the guys on squadron at
least have all the background of04:10 by the time they get
there, and you're building uponthat. So it was it was quite a
different shift in mentalitywhere now you have to go teach
from the basics.
How do you take off and landwith the Hornet? It was
(11:34):
exciting. There's somethingsomething special about being to
go being able to take someonefor their very first flight in
the Hornet and watch, you know,the nerves and everything, but
also just them coming downafterwards with a bit of a like,
oh, I did terrible, but Ienjoyed it. It's like, you
didn't do terrible. It's yourfirst time.
(11:56):
And just really see that, butjust the kind of, oh, wow,
moment they get after the flightand how much they realize they
have to go. So that wasdefinitely really exciting. The
training, you go through a wholeupgrade. Everything's an upgrade
in
Bryan (12:16):
the course. But
Brian (12:17):
go through a whole upgrade to be able to teach so
you're not going in cold. You'reyou're well prepared by the time
you get instructing thestudents. But it is a different
kind of training becausepreviously to that, on Squadron,
you were always instructing fromthe other jet. They were in
control of their own jet. Youwould give tips over the radio,
and most of the learning came inthe debrief and points would be
(12:42):
in the brief.
So now it was a whole differenttype of teaching because you
couldn't Now you're in thecockpit with them, the same type
of training tandem style we hadseen throughout our piloting
career. But there were alsoother opportunities to make
mistakes as an instructor. So itwas that whole learning of the
(13:07):
right keywords at the rightmoments can really help someone.
If you step in, if you pointtheir attention to one thing,
then their focus will be thereand they might miss something
else. So you have to be verycareful about what you are
referencing, what you aretalking about, and not talking
too much.
Is the thing you are noticingsomething minor? Can it wait? If
(13:29):
so, just keep your mouth shut.If it is something big, then
maybe you have to jump in andtake over the jet. So it was
definitely And that's somethingthat is hard to also just learn
through the training becauseinstructors playing students
aren't making the same type ofmistakes that students
necessarily make, or it's alittle bit more obvious, where
(13:51):
sometimes you can have a studentsort of insidiously lose their
essay.
And you have to be aware whenthey're starting to max out that
they may not speak up, thatthey've reached that point where
they're no longer payingattention to another aircraft.
They're supposed to be visual onthe lead aircraft, but they're
(14:15):
so focused in on their radarscreen or their targeting pod
that they're now starting todrift towards the other
aircraft. So you have to be, youknow, monitoring what they're
doing as well as trying to keep,you know, an eye out for safety
overall. But it definitelyprovides a learning that I
hadn't really experienced beforewhen you're teaching. Because on
(14:39):
Squadron, it was pretty easy topoint to errors or reference the
publications on where theyshould go and try and build more
information.
But when you're trying toexplain something from scratch,
your level of knowledge needs tobe higher for that. So I think
(15:00):
that's where I started to evenjust something as simple as the
one v one BFM maneuvering, it'sone thing to go out and be able
to do it confidently. But it'sanother. You can't just tell
other student, Just don't lose.That's not a valid teaching
(15:22):
technique.
To be able to pull out, Okay,what am I actually doing at each
point in this maneuver toaccomplish that goal? So I found
it challenging at the beginning,teaching some of those basics
because I hadn't been asked toverbalize exactly what do you do
at this exact moment, at thisexact time, to quite the same
(15:44):
level that you need to withstudents that are just fresh off
of a previous phase of flying.They think can't stay ahead of
the jet, but you can see thatthey're slowly building their
bucket. If you misspeak, it'salso very noticeable because
they will do what you said evenif you said it incorrectly. And
(16:05):
then you're like, well, that wasI was too vague in that
explanation, and now they aren'texecuting properly.
I need to take that on board andtry and refine how I'm teaching.
And that was kind of aniterative process that went
through. And that's also why youhave different experience levels
of instructors, is because thenyou can get that feedback from
(16:25):
the more senior instructors onhow your instructional story for
the student was. So it'scontinually learning. It's nice
with four ten, you go through acourse at a time, there's some
overlap, But you see them gofrom that first mission where
they felt so behind the jet,they thought they did awful and
(16:48):
you're like, no, no, you'redoing good.
You're exactly where you shouldbe at this phase. By the end of
it, you know, they don't eventhink about the basics, you
know, to and from. And they'rejust focused on that, those
mission objectives on eachsortie. And then coming away
from that, seeing how far theyprogressed and then they
(17:08):
graduate and, you know, you getto send them out to the
squadrons and just see them nowout and progressing with their
career. Was a really fulfillingrole as an instructor there.
The other nice thing about beingat four ten was I was also now a
little bit later in my fightercareer. And those early on
(17:31):
experiences on squadron, beingable to go on exercise,
traveling to Romania, going toAlaska, going in the QRA for
shift work. Now, was also at apoint in my life where I was
starting to look to have afamily and a little bit more
predictability, which was alsoreally nice because you're
Monday to Friday as opposed toyou know, you have a Saturday
(17:53):
evening shift in the queue orI'm gonna be gone for two months
on an operation. Yeah. Or we'regoing we would just do
deployments with the squadron,but we knew when they were
coming and it wasn't it was alittle bit more stable of a
lifestyle as well, which wasnice as a change for the family.
Bryan (18:09):
Yeah. A lot of people there's a lot of people out
there who just wanna stayoperational and they they kind
of dread going to a school insome capacity, whether that's
Portage or Moose Jaw or fourten. But it does provide that
stability. It does provide alittle bit of predictability,
and it's a lot easier on thefamilies.
Brian (18:27):
Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And we would still, you know,
try and do some work with thesquadrons, but we were a little
bit disconnected because theyare focused more on their
mission sets upgrades. On onehand, are honing your skills by
having to teach them, But on theother hand, being away from the
(18:49):
operational squadron, you arenot necessarily on the latest
cutting edge of what everyone isdoing for tactics.
Not that it changes drasticallyon the Hornet and you are trying
to teach at 04:10 what is beingused on the squadron. But you
can't just teach the mostadvanced things at the training
(19:09):
unit. It is a little bit more ofa non basic version, but isn't
the most complicated tactics wehave. So you refine your
abilities in some ways, but italso you can get a little bit
rusty on the training squadronas well in other ways. So it's a
(19:32):
it's a trade off, but it's worthit for anyone, to have that
experience.
Yeah. Because you don't want to,you don't wanna just stay
operational your entire careerwithout having seen a little bit
of the the other side of it.
Bryan (19:46):
Yeah. Yeah. I agree. So in 02/2019, you were selected as
the c f eighteen demonstrationpilot. How does one get selected
for this role?
Brian (19:56):
So there's when it's coming up for, you know, the
previous year, they they askwho's interested. You can put
your hand up, say, I'd like totry out for this. You have to
write a letter explaining yourreasons, what you would like to
do. And then they evaluate basedon your qualifications because
(20:18):
you you want someone a littlemore senior in the jet because
it is some more advanced notadvanced, but potentially more
dangerous flying and an abilityto able to go out, put on a safe
show, but an interesting show.And then there is a whole other
piece that they want to makesure you're prepared to really
(20:41):
do the bigger part of the job,which is, you know, after your
fifteen minutes of show is nowengaging with the public.
Yeah. So that's also really thethe more time consuming part of
that role, not necessarily theharder part. I think it's, you
know, equally as interesting,just a very time consuming part
because you wanna be availablejust as there was someone when I
(21:05):
was a young kid and saw a CF 18doing a demonstration, I wanted
to be the one there inspiringthat next, next pilot along the
line that can fly some futurejet. So that's a big part of
that. So when they're cominglooking at the selection for
that, they just were making sureit was a good fit.
Bryan (21:27):
Okay. What was it like to be the Hornet demo pilot? And
can you give us some of thehighlights of that experience?
Brian (21:34):
For the actual flying, it was some of the coolest flying.
It's not operational flying.It's the opposite of operational
flying. So it's not satisfyingin the same way of executing a
good mission, but it'ssatisfying in that, you know,
the crowd enjoyed it. And it'sjust no other times do you get
(21:55):
to fly that kind of routine.
So we train to fly low level.That's one of the skill sets
that any fighter pilot shouldhave because you may find
yourself whether you had todefensively react to some
airborne threat or if there's asurface to air missile, you end
(22:16):
up in a low level environment.But once you're down there,
you're looking to, you know,egress from the situation safely
or potentially, you know,depending on the tactics, you're
you're ingressing and egressingat low level. But what you're
not doing is a loop in front ofa crowd low level and then a
three sixty in afterburner,keeping it trying to fly
(22:39):
directly over as tight aspossible to the show line, you
know, getting to fly, sneakingbehind the crowd at high speed.
Like, it's just a differentcompletely different type of
flying that can't really beequated to anything we all else
we do.
Like, just even from the get go,the start of the, the routine
(23:01):
was the dirty roll, right aftertakeoff. So you would line up
there. You would actually trimout the jet differently. You had
a completely clean aircraft, soit performed its absolute best.
So that that includes all thepylons, which normally don't get
removed because the pylons hold,you know, your external fuel
tanks, your weapons.
So usually, the stuff attachedto that is removed. Well, in
(23:22):
this case, they removeeverything. Right from the get
go, you line up. You know,you're selecting burner with a
jet that is lighter than any jetyou normally fly, and you
accelerate to just a slightlyhigher speed than normal. And
it's just full back stick ontakeoff, which is not a thing
you would ever do with a planeotherwise because just burying
(23:44):
the stick in your lap on anormal takeoff is probably a
recipe to get yourself in insome trouble in terms of
airspeed or stalling theaircraft, but you just bury it
so that it pops off the ground.
And then, with the gear stillhanging, you're trying to roll
this aircraft and then bring itinto a loop while you're
retracting the gear and rightinto the show. So it was
Bryan (24:05):
That's crazy.
Brian (24:05):
It was a thrill. It was better than any roller coaster
because that kind of flying isisn't something you get to do
normally. My favorite thing todo on that show was the high g
three sixty. So you'd come alongthe show line and rate when you
got to show center, you'd do atwo seventy degree roll, so
(24:29):
towards the crowd, so you end uppointing away. And then with the
afterburner lit, just max gsustained rate three sixty.
And then once you're lined backup at the show line, you're up
into a loop. And it it justalways it was very because you
could see the crowd, and youcould tell they're just
(24:50):
watching, and you're having fun.It was just an experience that I
hadn't had before. Yeah. But itwas also very demanding because,
I mean, that that is a high highrisk scenario now is that, you
know, maneuvering low to theground.
So I was always on the radiowith a safety pilot. He's I'm
calling out the altitudesanytime I'm doing anything up
(25:14):
over the top, like a loop, forexample, I'm calling out the
altitudes. Because if I call itout wrong or if I if I start to,
you know, sound like I I'm notcompletely in control, he can
just knock off the show. So if Ior if I misverbalize an
altitude, then he'll he'll bethere to back me up so that I've
always got that safety bufferthat we've trained for because
(25:37):
it's a repetitive process thatyou start out in training with
the previous demo pilot and yougo through the same routine over
and over again, starting from ahigher altitude and stepping it
down, stepping it down, thatuntil you can do every maneuver
essentially flawlessly. Becausethere there is a buffer between
(25:58):
you and the ground, but it's nota big buffer.
So you don't want to be bustingany sort of top altitudes or
getting slow when you're tryingto recover. It's just got to be
very precise. So the whole showonly lasted about fifteen
minutes, and that was a fulltank of internal gas right down
to pretty much bingo because theuse of afterburner just it's
(26:21):
gonna you're pretty much leavingin it leaving it in as long as
possible, which is using aninsane amount of fuel. Very
demanding on the body, but atleast it's for a short period.
And then same with any of ourflying that we do.
There's always a brief with theground. The public affairs
officer and the safety officer,because the public affairs is
(26:45):
the one doing all the announcingthroughout all the music to it.
So we we just go through theroutine every time. I'm sure
that people that watch theSnowbirds have seen, something
similar, how they talk throughthe entire performance, before
the show. Then after, we do adebrief.
Ours is a little bit quickerthan theirs. Quick, shorter
show. And then, go out andmingle with the crowd, enjoy,
(27:10):
just hanging out with people andget to see the rest of the show.
So that was a it it was veryexciting flying, and, I'm glad I
got that opportunity.
Bryan (27:20):
Yeah. That sounds like an amazing opportunity.
Brian (27:23):
One of the other highlights, on the demo is I did
not just the routine, though. Ihad the opportunity to fly with
some other aircraft. So one ofthe there was a few, like, I got
to fly with a, an originalVampire, if anyone knows what
that is. It's a very old jet.
Bryan (27:41):
Oh, wow.
Brian (27:43):
Information as and it would just be, you know, some
basic passes that, wereinformation, past the crowd a
few different directions. Therewas, yeah, actually, quite a few
warbirds I got to fly with, ButI think the the most interesting
one was, Chris Hatfield and hisSpitfire. We got to, do a flyby
(28:03):
in So Ontario with that was thatwas quite neat. Something, that
I'd never thought I'd be flyingformation with a Spitfire
before. And, it was it was veryinteresting just being able to,
you know, get a look at thatplane, fly next to it, really,
enjoy having that experience.
Experience. Yeah.
Bryan (28:24):
That's awesome. And Chris Hadfield was flying it? Yes.
Yep. That's crazy.
Brian (28:29):
Yeah. Yeah. It was it was interesting meeting him.
Bryan (28:32):
Yeah. I bet. So let's get into your current posting Flight
Training School in DecimomanoAir Base in Italy. How did the
opportunity to be posted therecome about?
Brian (28:44):
So for the opportunity for that, I had heard rumors
that a posting like that wasgonna open up. We knew there was
going to be some internationaltraining available. So, I went
to my boss at the time and said,If this does become an option,
please let me know and I wouldbe very interested. I was kind
(29:05):
of in the right place at theright time because
qualifications required forthat. They wanted someone with,
you know, some four shipexperience.
They wanted someone that wasteaching at 04:10. So the
training experience with time onthe jet. So it all kind of lined
up, I was getting to a point at04:10 where it was coming up on
another posting anyway. So itjust worked out that I had the
(29:30):
qualifications, and my bosssaid, yeah. Well, I'll go to bat
for you.
And then, I was able to getselected for this role.
Bryan (29:38):
Awesome.
Advertisement (29:39):
KF Aerospace, Canada's largest MRO and
founding partner in Skyline forthe future aircrew training
program, is proud to be theexclusive North American dealer
for the Grove 120TP. The Grove120TP is a world class training
aircraft combining turbinepower, advanced avionics, side
by side seating, and fullaerobatic capability. Already
(30:01):
trusted by the German Air Force,Canada's Future Air Crew
Training Program, and militariesworldwide, it's built to deliver
performance and reliability.With its versatility, the GROBE
120TP is the ideal platform forboth military training and
civilian programs, includingupset recovery training. Go to
kfaero.ca, that's kfaero.ca, tolearn more and get in touch with
(30:27):
us.
Bryan (30:30):
What do your duties as senior national representative
for Canada consist of?
Brian (30:35):
So it's kind of two roles. So my SNR, senior
national representative, is justthe connection liaison between
the training squadron here inItaly and back in the division.
I am not bridge for most of theoperational stuff with the
(31:00):
direct link to the squadron. Thestudents here, I'm kind of like
what you can consider, you know,a flight commander for them
because we have eight studentshere right now, and the next two
are showing up next week. So wehave quite a number of students.
So helping them initially beforethey get here, getting all the
(31:21):
administrative work done,everything that needs to be done
to get students to a programwith all the support from the
home unit because they're comingfrom Moose Jaw before they come
here. And then any feedback orif there's any issues, that's
where my sort of administrativerole as the SNR come in. And
then the other side of that isI'm an instructor on the
(31:44):
aircraft here. So and with that,I work in the their tactics and
standards division. So it'sflying with the students.
I try and fly with the Canadianstudents as much as I can, but
it's flying with all thestudents here. There's quite a
number of nationalities here. Iwanna say over a dozen. Oh, wow.
But I'd have to actually go andlook how many are here.
(32:08):
But, I mean, we have Italy beingbig one, but we also have Great
Britain. US has an instructorand some students on the way. We
have Sweden, Germany, Spain,Qatar. Who else am I missing?
There's a few others that arehere as well.
So it's quite a biginternational group here. And
(32:31):
then there's instructors from abunch of those different
countries as well. So we have Ifly with Canadians some days,
fly with students from differentcountries other days. And it's
all phase four flying. Thatequivalent of IFF that we had
talked about at NGEP.
Post wings flying. So they'recoming here as winged pilots,
(32:56):
and this is their transitionbetween, that course, which, is
the phase three Harvard andgoing on to the Hornet. So this
is that in between.
Bryan (33:07):
But they arrive with their wings now. Right?
Brian (33:09):
Yeah. Exactly. So this unlike NGEP where they have all
phases going there, this Italyhas different phases. Obviously,
same type of program. But atthis base, specifically, it's
just phase four.
So this is only winged pilots.We're not teaching the basics
here. This is straight into howto fly a jet like a fighter jet.
Bryan (33:34):
Okay. Can you tell us about the lead in fighter
training or lift course there inItaly?
Brian (33:43):
So the course, kinda like the course I described at four
ten, it actually is a very goodmirror of it. When they arrive
here, the students will gothrough ground school, as you
would expect, and then they areinto the qual phase. Doing the
basics, learning how totransition to this, take off and
(34:04):
land, basic formation flyingwith it. Because even though
they have done that before andthey have their wings, each jet
is different. So they have tolearn how to fly instrument
flight on this.
It's a lot newer than whatthey've been flying previously.
So it has some more of the niceaids for flying autopilot. It's
(34:26):
got a HUD, stuff like that. Sotransitioning to it. And it is
quite a bit more capable thanHarvard.
So there's a little bit of alearning curve when they
initially get onto it. So that'sthe qual phase. And then they'll
move into the air to air and airto ground, the more tactical
phase. And then it mirrors whatyou would see on the Hornet. So
(34:48):
starting off in the air to airphase, you're going be doing
your 1v1 BFM, 2v1 ACM, and thenonto the BVR.
And then same with air toground, same type of phases. And
where this jet really excelscompared to the t 38, which was
an excellent jet, but it's oldat this point. They've upgraded
(35:10):
it, the one being used in NGEP.But it and same with the Hawk.
I'm not trying to call out onespecific jet or not.
It's just a different generationof aircraft. So Mhmm. When I
went through training on the t38, and that's why I'm picking
on it, I remember from trainingyou wouldn't be able to simulate
(35:32):
much with it when you're talkingabout the more advanced tactics.
So, you could do 1v1, but whenyou're talking about simulating
a missile, you just point at theother guy within a visual
environment and call that yourshot. Now, with the T-three 46,
it has the ability to simulatewhat you would expect on a
(35:53):
modern fighter jet within it.
So for the air to air, it hassimulated radar. So we don't
have an actual radar becausethat you know, it's the cost
versus complexity of trainer.But all the jets are on a common
data link. So you can have yourtwo aircraft flying. You can
(36:19):
have adversary aircraft.
You can simulate taking anAMRAAM, your beyond visual range
radar guided missile. And theother aircraft is going to, on
his radar warning receiver, knowthat his aircraft is being
targeted by your radar. Eventhough you don't have an actual
radar, it's just that syntheticdata link being, communicated
(36:41):
between the two. And then he'llget a hit notification when his
jet actually has been struck bya missile. So you're seeing what
you would see on a radar in thef 18.
You're seeing that in thisaircraft. So it's a whole lot
more advanced in terms oftraining than what I got just
because the capabilities are nowthere. So the course is nine
months long. And that mirrorspretty much what the guys are
(37:04):
going to see at four ten. It'sall the same phases.
Whereas when I went through onIFF, I want to say that was
three to four months, whichgives you a good introduction to
the fighter type training. Butnow this is going beyond that
with all the ability to createdifferent threats in the air so
(37:29):
that you can actually train toall the mission sets that a real
jet would see. So we have theability when we start talking
about, you know, within visualrange, it stimulates that you're
actually using a heat seekingmissile. So it will lock on, and
you'll see in your HUD that it'sgot a lock both with the radar,
(37:50):
with the IR missile. You can seewhen then you if you maneuver
too much that it breaks thatlock.
They can simulate putting outchaff and flare that will affect
that. And then you move into thebeyond visual range. When you
start employing, you can havesomeone at a console at the
squadron. And this is somethingI do as well because everyone
takes different positions. Youhave someone at the console at
(38:12):
the squadron who's alsooperating as the ground
controller for the intercepts,calling out, you know, all of
the different threats.
But they also can control andinput red air or, like, aircraft
into the air that, obviously,you're not gonna see visually,
but it appears like on yourradar, on all your sensors, that
(38:34):
there's other aircraft outthere. So you have to start
targeting them Wow. Between thetwo of you, and you can see
that. And then when you starttalking about air to ground,
it's not just point at theground, press a button to
simulate a dumb weapon, and dumbas in, like, unguided. Now
you're talking about we have asynthetic targeting pod.
(38:56):
So I mentioned the targeting podbefore where you would, you
know, use it to zoom in and outfor either air to ground threats
or interior to air threats.Well, now this has essentially
you're looking at that same typeof display. We don't have an
actual targeting pod on board,but you have a whole image
database of the area you'reoperating in. So you can zoom in
(39:18):
on buildings. You can tell whichones are higher fidelity, so
it's not a perfectrepresentation.
But if you have someonesimulating that they're on the
ground, we work with real armyJTACs on the ground here. They
will be able to talk you on withyour sensors using that
synthetic targeting pod and thenyou can employ your weapons on
(39:43):
that. There are limitations.They can't talk you onto a car
because that is not in thedatabase. But the buildings and
you can see the coastline,everything like that as you are
maneuvering with that.
And then having all thesimulated air to ground weapons,
which if you're going to try andlaze in a weapon, it's similar
(40:05):
mechanics to the Hornet. So it'svery transferable skills. It's
going to be a big step up fromwhat they had seen previously,
but it should hopefully bridgethe gap and make a small step
when they get to the Hornet. Andit's also a lot more powerful
than previous generations oftrainers. So the thrust, the
weight of this is quite a bithigher than what I'd previously
(40:29):
experienced on trainers.
So it's a supersonic capablejet. It has, you know, not the
thrust of a Hornet, but quite abit more thrust compared to
previous training of similartype roles. They have twin
(40:49):
engine, about 6,000 pounds ofthrust each. Compared to the
Hornet, was 10,000 to 12,000pounds of thrust per engine. So
we're talking, you know, and alittle bit more an afterburner
on the Hornet.
So we're talking about, youknow, a third a third the
thrust, but that's quite a bitcloser than previous generations
(41:10):
of trainers have been. So italso feels more like the Hornet
when you do that maneuveringcompared to previous aircraft
where they they were a bit morelimited. So, like, the Hornet is
seven and a half g capable. Thisone's actually eight g capable.
So it's Wow.
It it can pull, you know, the g.It has the thrust for the
(41:31):
training. So the students aren'tgonna see a big jump in
performance. They'll see a jumpin performance going to the
Hornet, but it's not going tobe, you know, light years ahead
in performance compared to howit was potentially before.
Bryan (41:45):
So it won't be basically like as big of a jump as it was
to go from, say, the t 38 Yeah.And then up to the Hornet?
Brian (41:53):
Yeah. Exactly. Like, compare the Hawk or the t 38 to
the three forty six. The threeforty six is probably 50% more
thrust than either of those.
Bryan (42:02):
Okay.
Brian (42:03):
And higher g, tighter turn radius. And it's it also
allows you because it it's builtwith that more training fly by
wire mentality, you can selecthow much performance you want in
terms of the G and capability.So if you want to simulate a
(42:25):
less capable radar, you can dialit back, and it'll pull SG so
that the student can have a bitof an advantage. Or then you can
go full up or increase theamount of alpha it can pull. So
it's very flexible in that.
And the HOTAS, your hands onthrottle and stick, which is how
you're going to control all yoursensors, it's also very
(42:47):
analogous to the Hornet. It'sactually almost identical in the
stick. The throttles are alittle bit different, but it's
just learning where all thebuttons are. Some of the buttons
do different things. In one ofthem, chaff and flare switch
might be a weapon select,something like that, but that's
easy to transition as long asnow you have the basic idea of
(43:09):
if I'm controlling the radar,how I'm controlling it with my
HOTAS.
So it makes for a very simplenot a simple transition, but it
should be easier. Because I doremember coming from the t 38
and then trying to learn theradar, all the BVR, everything
was new. In the Hornet, all theair to ground weapons were all
(43:31):
new. So that shouldn't be thecase anymore.
Bryan (43:34):
Yeah. It sounds like this is providing, like, a really
high fidelity, very, very highquality training experience to
the students.
Brian (43:43):
Yeah. Yeah. And it also creates some flexibility too
because, we can link the simswith the flight and with that
ground control station. Say weneed to do something where you
don't necessarily need twoaircraft in flight, but it is
normally a two aircraft typemission. A good example is a QRA
(44:04):
intercept.
Here are a scenario. You mighthave the lead aircraft doing the
actual intercept and the numbertwo aircraft sitting in a shadow
position, up high and behind,being able to monitor this
scenario, ready to engage ifneeded. For the training here,
(44:24):
we don't necessarily need tohave a physical aircraft in that
shadow position that's notinteracting. So what we do is we
have the student in the sim. So,in the in the actual jet, the
red air will take off, go out tothe area, lead will take off,
over the radio, talking to thesim, and the sim sees his lead
(44:47):
on the runway and they're linedup on the runway together.
We'll call for the same takeoff,departure, all the same calls.
And in the SIM, he's flying nextto his lead, and they're talking
back and forth, making all thesame radio calls, doing all the
same stuff that you would as ifyou had two jets. Wow. The only
difference being is that thelead aircraft, the one that's
actually in flight, if he looksover his shoulder, no one's
(45:09):
there. But the guy in the simwho asked to actually stay
visual throughout the entirescenario, he sees leads aircraft
in the position in a sim as itis currently in flight.
Bryan (45:19):
That's incredible.
Brian (45:21):
Yeah. It's it's very cool to see, and it works quite well.
Bryan (45:23):
And that's a huge cost saver too when it comes to
training costs.
Brian (45:27):
Yeah. Exactly. So in that case, you save one aircraft per
sortie of that sortie typebecause only the lead aircraft
is gonna close into visual rangeof the Red Air. So you don't
need the second aircraftactually to be in flight to get
the same training opportunity.
Bryan (45:43):
Wow. From what I hear, the course can be challenging
for Canadians who've only flownthe Harvard and then make the
jump to the three four six. Doyou find that's true?
Brian (45:53):
Somewhat. It's it's hard for me to judge coming onto this
with experience. And we haven'thad anyone really struggle
significantly, but theydefinitely, you know, report
back to me after some of theirflights or when we're seeing it
together that, you know, theythey are finding they're a
little bit behind the jetinitially. But that's also true
(46:15):
of anyone coming onto thisbecause it's always a bit of a
jump up, but it can be just alittle bit more of a handful.
It's not hard to fly a handfultype, but you are just going
faster than they were before, sothey have to be thinking a
little quicker.
It can be hard to slow down,surprisingly. If you are
(46:36):
descending more than fivedegrees, it may start to want to
pick up speed on you, even atidle. So if you're at like a
six, seven degree descent andyou haven't slowed down before
you start your descent, you mayfind yourself with too much
speed as you get to that, youknow, holding point or whatever
it is. They have to they alsoare trying to do all that while
(46:57):
getting used to some of the EUrules. It's their first time
probably not setting thealtimeter at flight level one
eight zero.
The first time they have toremember to set it at 6,000. The
the radio calls, for the mostpart, it's second language for
most of the people flying aroundhere. So it's they have to be
(47:20):
really on their game, preciselistening and speaking so that
they aren't creating anyconfusion. So it's the first, I
think, month of flying is a bigstep up. Just new country, new
environment, new aircraft.
But, we send them well prepared.So it's not too not too bad of a
jump. And they've, you know,they do, all the required prep,
(47:43):
lots of study time. They've gota pretty good facility here
where, you know, when we weregoing through training, we had a
poster on a wall to do ourchecks. Now they have two rooms
with like 10 large touch screenswith a full seat and stick and
throttle that you sit and youcan finger poke everything for
all your startup checks throughto study through your entire
mission.
(48:03):
And that's their version of a,you know, paper cockpit on a
wall.
Bryan (48:08):
That's huge. Yeah. What training did you have to go
through when you arrived inorder to qualify as an
instructor?
Brian (48:15):
So the, instructor pilot upgrade here is very similar to
what the students go through. Soit takes about nine months for
the students to go through allthe phases here, which includes,
you know, everything from whatwe've talked about. They get to
drop some ordinance on the rangehere. They're learning all the
(48:37):
basics of the jet initially,everything we've talked about.
It's the same for the IPs.
The only difference is you splityour time front and back seat.
So whereas a student may do fourfront seats, just training
formation flight missions, youas the IP will now do two from
the front seat to learn it andthen two from the back seat
(48:59):
where you're having another IPin the front pretending to be
the student.
Bryan (49:03):
Okay.
Brian (49:04):
So you you have the same length of course, pretty much
all the same sorties. It's justhalf of them are front seat
where you learn it and then youdo the other half from the back
seat where you learn to teachit.
Bryan (49:19):
So you're at you're going through, like, kind of swapping
back and forth between being thestudent and being the
instructor. You're learning thecourse at the same time as also
learning to instruct?
Brian (49:31):
Yeah. Exactly. And you're going through you'll be paired
up on a course with otherstudents, not just instructor
pilots, but if they're starting,you know, 10 students that
month, there might be oneinstructor or two instructors on
that course. So you'll prep fora mission with another student.
It could be a Canadian studentgoing through straight off of
(49:53):
phase three your BFM sortie.
And you'll prep it together. Andthen one day you might be flying
in the front seat, get thefeedback on how you did fly it
again from the front seat, getthe feedback. And then, you
know, the third flight, nowyou're gonna have to give the
brief and fly it from the ormonitor it from the back seat as
(50:18):
you would a student.
Bryan (50:19):
Okay.
Brian (50:19):
And, you know, and the other aircraft might be an
actual student from your coursethat you're paired up with. So
you do pretty much the samesyllabus and you get a chance
sort of a demo do type mentalitythroughout the course.
Bryan (50:32):
Okay. As a qualified instructor on the course, where
do you typically see studentsstruggle?
Brian (50:39):
It's hard to say if there is one place. I think early on,
depending on what theirbackground is, some can struggle
a little bit with the language.Obviously, if they've done all
their instruction in their homecountry, the language of
instruction is English. But noteveryone is coming with the
(51:01):
exact same level. So that can bechallenging for some guys early
on trying to get all the rightcalm out because it's very sort
of set calm.
But when things are starting tobe a little bit more dynamic, if
they aren't as comfortable, itcan be challenging. But you see
that progress pretty quick oncethey get a feel for the jet, a
little more capacity. And thenit all depends on from there.
(51:26):
Some guys, if they have a verystrong background, then they
tend to do fairly well. But it'salso unique in that the course
is a bit modular.
You don't have to take everysingle piece of the course. So,
a country that doesn't do air toair refueling, for example,
(51:48):
would not take the air to airrefueling module. So if a
country has less has purchasedless modules, well, they might
be weaker in some areas at theend. So if we're doing they
haven't they don't do any of theair to ground range where they
have a bunch of practiceattempts at deliveries of
weapons, they may not be ascompetent in that one area at
(52:11):
the end. But, you know, it's notthe focus and you tailor the the
training to that.
Bryan (52:16):
Okay.
Brian (52:16):
So you can see a little bit different in experience. And
then different countries, eachhave their own little bit
different lead in wingstraining. So if someone's coming
through, the the Italian phasetwo and three, they're gonna
have a little bit differentbackground than a British person
that came through the phasethree there where they, you
(52:38):
know, Canadians, Brits, whoevermight have to learn not
significantly different, butslightly different to even just
basics of formation, forexample, for, you know, what
something's called. So it's it'seasy to get past some of those
hurdles, but they're not alwaysexpected by the students because
(53:00):
they, you know, they think theyhave a they think they
understand a concept. It's like,well, you actually said that the
Canadian way.
Here's what they want here. Andthat's true of anything. And but
once we get past that initialqual phase where, you know,
language training differenceskind of kind of don't matter as
(53:21):
much because now everything isnew. Now, one v one or air to
ground deliveries are new foreveryone. It doesn't matter what
their background is.
It kind of all once they getqualified on the jet, they're
they're pretty much all at thesame base level.
Bryan (53:36):
Yeah. That makes sense. When Canadian students finish
this course, what's next forthem?
Brian (53:42):
So from here, they are going direct to the Hornet.
Well, there will be a little bitof wait time in between. There
always is. But they are going tothe Hornet course. Four ten has
been looking around, seeing howthey can take advantage of the
longer and a bit more advancedtraining that they experience
here and see if they can usethat to tweak the training
(54:05):
syllabus at four ten.
So, right now, they will go tofour ten with other grads from
this program, with other gradsfrom IFTS, and then they will
have separate four ten coursesfrom all the grads coming from
NGEP. Right now, we still havestudents going to both. It will
be a course from Italy, a coursefrom Engep, course from Italy,
(54:28):
Engep, and they will bounce backand forth between the two
courses as they go through. Thatway, they can tailor their
program there based on the typeof training they got. So, it's
pretty much everyone coming outof here though is guaranteed a
spot on the Hornet.
Bryan (54:47):
That's pretty awesome. And and that makes sense that
they're separating those coursesbased just based on what you've
said. Like, not that there'sanything not that there's
anything wrong with the trainingyou get at NJET by any means,
but just that they are soundslike pretty different in terms
of the generation of jet you'reflying. And so you just have
different experiences.
Brian (55:06):
Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. That's what we had at NGEP is
the same product when I wentthrough, you know, with minor
upgrades. It's the same productof a pilot they're producing
now.
So it's just able to go thatnext step further with IFTS.
Bryan (55:25):
Okay. Okay. So we're getting close to the end of our
interview. So we're gonna do ourclassic final three questions.
With all the experience youhave, what is one thing you've
learned that you need to do inorder to stay ready to do your
job?
Brian (55:40):
Think it's not necessarily to stay ready, but
it's to stay focused becauseit's easy to get bogged down in
the you know, all the littlestuff that the military life
brings with it. And you can kindof get bummed out. Things aren't
going your way. And it's just tokeep going and not let those
(56:03):
things that are outside yourcontrol drag you down. Yes.
You know, as a student, you'llsee that kind of thing where
there's something frustratingabout the training system. You
have no control over that. Evenas, you know, an SNR in Italy,
there would be things I wouldlike to see done differently,
but it's not my program. And youjust have to accept that is how
(56:25):
it is and Yeah. You know, notlet that affect your mood.
Or if it does affect your mood,just, you know, go out on
Friday, complain about it withyour friends, and then move past
it. Because if you dwell onthose things outside of your
control, it it just will becomeoverwhelming trying to think
about everything that you haveno effect on.
Bryan (56:46):
Yeah. In your experience in both the operational and
training worlds, what makes agreat fighter pilot?
Brian (56:54):
What makes a great fighter pilot, I think, is just
really the ability to kindacommit to it. Because if if your
heart's not in it when you'reearly on, it's not gonna get
better. You you want to be surethis is something you wanna give
a shot. Because when it does gettough, when there is a lot going
(57:17):
on, when you you feel likeyou're maxed out, then you have
to be able to just kind of,yeah, be sure that you're on the
right goal. And even if you'renot sure, just be committed that
I will, know, fly my best todayand try and learn as much as I
can, and that's all I can do.
Because if if you start tosecond, you know, doubt yourself
(57:40):
at any point, then you're gonnalook at how much effort you're
putting into it, and it's justgonna spiral. So you have to
just kinda commit even if evenif you're struggling. It's it's
kind of a commitment game.
Bryan (57:52):
Okay. If you were in the Moose Jaw mess today and you ran
into someone who wanted to be afighter pilot, what would your
advice to them be?
Brian (58:00):
I mean, just go for it. I know some people are on the
fence sometimes about it. But ifyou if you wanna do it, I mean,
you just gotta you try. And ifit's not, meant to be, then it's
just not gonna work. But all youcan do is try.
And then if you get there, youget there. And if not, there's
(58:20):
always gonna be otheropportunities.
Bryan (58:22):
Right on. Okay, Brian. That's gonna wrap up our chat
for today. It was so cool tohear about your career and to
catch up. Like, you know, wehaven't seen each other since
Moose Jaw.
So to get a chance to just hearhow you're doing, hear what
you've done, to hear that weoperated in some of the same
theaters was really neat. It'sbeen great to learn about the
LIFT program in Italy. And I'mreally looking forward to
(58:45):
getting together with one ofyour students, Eli, who attended
the LIFT course as well to hearabout it from the student
perspective. So thank you somuch for being here today. I
really appreciate it.
Brian (58:54):
You're welcome.
Bryan (58:55):
Okay. That wraps up our chat with my good buddy, Brian
Kilroy, all about his time as aninstructor on the F eighteen
Hornet, as well as his currentrole as senior national
representative for the LIFTprogram in Italy. For our next
episode, we'll be closing outthis three part series by
sitting down with Eli, a recentgraduate of the LIFT program, so
that we can get a view of thecourse from the student's
(59:16):
perspective. Do you have anyquestions or comments about
anything you've heard in thisshow? Would you or someone you
know make a great guest, or doyou have a great idea for a
show?
You can reach out to us at thepilotprojectpodcast@Gmail.com or
on all social media at at podpilot project. And be sure to
check out that social media forlots of great videos of our RCAF
and Mission Aviation aircraft.As always, we'd like to thank
(59:38):
you for tuning in and ask foryour help with the big three.
That's like and follow us onsocial media, share with your
friends, and follow and rate usfive stars wherever you get your
podcasts. That's all for now.
Thanks for listening. Keep theblue side up. See you. Engineer,
shut down all four. Shuttingdown all four.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy, Jess Hilarious, And Charlamagne Tha God!