February 2, 2025 • 49 mins
(00:42) What if a beloved restaurant from your past could be brought back to life, dish by dish? Join us as we explore the captivating legacy of The Primadonna, McKees Rocks' cherished Italian eatery, with insights from former owner Joseph Costanzo Jr. and his daughter, Maria C. Palmer. Maria's book, "On the Rocks," co-authored with Ruthie Robbins, chronicles her father's extraordinary journey in the restaurant world, highlighting The Primadonna's unique charm and warm hospitality that set it apart during its heyday in the 1980s.
(12:06) Feel the nostalgia as Joe and Maria share stories of made-to-order pastas and handmade meatballs, capturing the artistry that defined the restaurant. The journey is as much about storytelling as it is about food, with readers and listeners longing to relive the flavors and memories of their past.
(42:43) Then we pour a glass of Italian wine fit for royalty, with Catherine Montest @urfairywinemother and share a family meatball recipe from Heather Abraham of KDKA. This episode is a tribute to the vibrant world of local Italian cuisine that's sure to resonate with food lovers and nostalgic souls alike.
Maria's website: https://mariacpalmer.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Doug (00:00):
Hey everyone, welcome to The Pittsburgh Dish.
We're back from winter breakwith our first episode of 2025.
I'm your host, Doug Heilman.
What's the real story behind abygone landmark restaurant in
McKees Rocks?
This week, we talk to thefamily behind The Primadonna.
Have you tried an Italian winethat's fit for a king?
(00:22):
Catherine Montest introduces usto the king of wines that's
backed by a nebby grape, and ourfriend Heather Abraham wraps up
the episode with a familymeatball recipe.
What's the secret ingredient?
Well, just turn on the tap.
All that ahead.
Stay tuned.
Thank you both for coming overand being on the show.
(00:44):
Would you introduce yourselvesto our listeners?
Joe (00:50):
Sure, I'm Joseph Costanzo Jr.
I am the former owner of ThePrimad onna Restaurant in McKees
Rocks from 1986 to 2005.
And we're here because mydaughter wrote a book about my
experiences in the restaurantbusiness and it's called On the
(01:11):
Rocks, the Primad onna.
Doug (01:12):
Story.
Well, there you go.
He gave you a nice lead in.
Maria (01:15):
Yeah, he did so.
Thank you so much again forhaving us, Doug.
My name is Maria C Palmer.
I am the co-author of the bookOn the Rocks, which is the rise
and fall of my father, JosephCostanzo Jr, in the, and I'll
tell you one of the taglinesI've used for this podcast is do
(01:47):
you really know Pittsburgh'slocal food scene?
Doug (01:50):
And I did not know this story.
I felt like I got such aneducation.
Maria, can you just tell ourlisteners, if they haven't read
On the Rocks yet, how you andyour co-author approached
writing the book, Because I knowit took a little?
Be more of a family history.
Maria (02:06):
I knew my dad had a very interesting life, but it wasn't
until I started asking verypointed questions as a writer
(02:33):
that I started to realize thatthis was more than just
something that we would want toshare for generations of our
family.
This was something that wewould like to share really with
the public.
I'm so glad you did yeah,something that we would like to
share really with the public.
I'm so glad you did yeah.
And as far as working withRuthie, ruthie was my former
high school AP English teacher.
She and I had actually metwhenever I was in middle school
(03:02):
and she followed me Her sons aresimilar age to my sister and I
and she kind of followed herchildren as they aged out of
schools and therefore shefollowed me as a default.
And she grew up in McKee'sRocks, right across the street
from what once was therestaurant.
She was one of my dad's firstcustomers and it just made sense
(03:22):
.
She's actually the same exactage as my dad too.
So that opening scene that'scalled the Rocks, that is
actually from her childhood thatshe paints that picture.
Doug (03:32):
And this is Ruthie Robbins this is your co-author to the
book.
Maria (03:36):
Yes, yeah, and she and I really worked very diligently
together.
I always say, you know, Iworked on this for about 10
years by myself and then,whenever Ruthie came in, it only
took seven more years fortrying to make sure that
everything was as factual asfactual can be.
(04:09):
We tried our best to tell thestory with integrity and truth
and to really get the heart ofthe time, the heart of the
restaurant, and thejuxtaposition between what made
this restaurant such an anomalyin a way, and I always say you
(04:34):
know, what my dad did wassomewhat impossible and really
couldn't be replicated in thesame way today, because today we
have a lot of help right.
We have these wonderful podcasts, we have social media, we have
YouTube, we have Yelp.
We have all of these differentways in which average people can
(04:58):
be found.
Back during the 80s, thatwasn't the way that it was, and
most restaurants that weregetting a lot of press and being
seen were restaurants in muchlarger cities like New York or
Chicago or San Francisco.
(05:19):
So to have not only a top ratedrestaurant in the city, but to
have a top-rated restaurant inthe country, Nationally yes.
During that time was, I thought,a story that needed to be told.
Doug (05:33):
So that's why we did it.
I want to just add to anyonethat hasn't read the book it's
told in your dad's voice, joe, Ifeel like I was listening to
you and your oral history of ThePrima donna and I just loved it
and there were so many things Ithink as a local person I'm
like I know that place, oh yeah,the Sheraton.
Oh, of course, like all ofthese little things that kind of
(05:54):
bring you and hook you into thestory.
So I think if you're a personfrom the region and you haven't
read the book, you really needto get your hands on it.
I the book, you really need toget your hands on it.
I wanted to take a step over and, joe, if you could tell
listeners because I'm one ofthem for folks that did not get
(06:14):
to come to The Primad onna andexperience it, can you describe
for us a little bit more aboutthe restaurant?
I mean it was to what Mariasaid such a unique thing for
McKee's Rocks and what you dideven for the community there A
lot of people say who were there.
Joe (06:27):
You really can't explain the restaurant.
You had to be there, Right, itwas a different type of
atmosphere.
I was always there, you know,greeting people, talking to
people and going around table totable, thanking people for
coming in, good customers,giving them, you know, some
(06:48):
desserts on the house or a rideof drinks.
Doug (06:50):
The zucchini, the fried zucchini.
Wondering if you'd show up withsome fried zucchini today and
most restaurateurs don't do that.
Joe (06:59):
So it was unique in that way.
And of course, the food wasfabulous.
You know, I had my cousin fromItaly who cooked over there, two
or three legal immigrants thatcame over cooking the food.
So it was authentic, yes, itwas authentic.
And so the environment wasreally different, because we're
(07:24):
in an area that was tough, anold steel town, so it was kind
of chic.
It became chic to come into therocks and have this great food
and you're there and you'reseeing Jamie Lee Curtis or Tommy
Lasorda, you know, next to you.
So it really was fabulous forthe local people and the you
(07:48):
know the Pittsburgh people, youknow they would see, you know
the Steelers or the Pirates, RayTannehill, from the, you know
Channel 2.
So you know they saw a lot of,you know, celebrities.
But it was kind of like a homeytype of situation.
It wasn't stiffy, formal, itwasn't real pretentious.
(08:10):
So it made it so nice thatpeople come in and people used
to say to me Joe, you treateverybody the same, those
celebrities or the averagepeople the same, and that really
makes us all feel good.
Doug (08:24):
I think that's what makes the Prima donna special.
Is that life that you bring tothat party, so to speak, every
time that you're there, rightthat?
Joe (08:34):
was the difference?
You can walk right past anowner in a restaurant and that
owner, after you spent somemoney, won't even look at you or
won't even thank you, andthat's just the way it is and
was.
But I was able to putpurveyors' names on my menu,
like Ricci's Sausage or Wholey'sFood on the menu, which nobody
(08:58):
did.
And today you see, if you buygift certificates, they're
giving you gift certificates.
You buy $100, they'll give youa $20 bonus type of thing.
I did that 40 years ago.
I started all that.
Doug (09:13):
You were such a pioneer in marketing, that's it.
One of the things I love fromthe book and I don't want to
give too much away but going toall of the different hotel
concierge and inviting them tothe restaurant and then they
would invite the guests of thehotels, yes, People would come
down Amazing People would comedown and say you know, we're?
Joe (09:30):
we're staying at the Hilton refreshment in Chicago and the
concierge told us that this isthe best Italian restaurant.
Yes, Well, I would go back downthere and thank them.
You know, give them a $50 giftcertificate to come down.
And anytime anybody ever comein and wanted an Italian
restaurant, they'd say writedown 65.
You're there in five or 10minutes.
(09:52):
Mention that we sent you.
You'll get an appetizer.
So I did that with the Vista,the Westin, William Penn, the
Hilton, and everybody was thereand they sent all these people
down and that's how it allworked.
It was just, everybody wantedwhat I had, but nobody would do
(10:13):
what I did.
Doug (10:14):
You had great ideas and original ideas and I was able to
share the wealth.
Joe (10:19):
Yes, and that's the bottom line.
And I had a product and we hadlinen tablecloths.
You had a maitre d' All thiswas all part of it and you had
the owner talking to you.
Doug (10:34):
It had soul to it because you were there, right.
But such shrewd and smart ideasfor someone that you know, you
took this leap from postalcarrier to restaurateur kind of
overnight Right Amazing.
And I do also want to say youspent like 17-hour days there,
oh yeah every day.
Joe (10:53):
We were closed on Sundays, which would have been a great
day, but I had little children.
Maria was four, kelly was ninemonths my two daughters.
When I first got in there I was32 years old at the time, but
Sundays I still spent eighthours down there just doing
payroll disbursements receipts.
(11:13):
After the kids, we went tochurch, after the kids went to
bed, I went down there.
I never went to a weddingreception in those 20 years that
I was there, went to the churchbut had come back, never went
to a family reception for awedding, total dedication.
(11:33):
It was there, yeah, and I hadfocus, but you loved it, yeah,
and I had focus.
Doug (11:38):
I do want to.
I'll ask this to both of youbecause I saw recently you did.
You've been doing some speakingtours and demos and you were at
the Kitchen at Vangura.
Yes, and you did some cooking.
Can we talk about the food?
Because I got to tell you, asI'm reading the book, the thing
that pains me the most is that Inever got to go.
That's what I loved.
(11:59):
I was so glad that youmentioned a few of the dishes,
like the pasta with the bacon,and I, like I want to make those
things.
Maria (12:06):
Oh, yes, oh absolutely, and you know, I think, that
whenever we were writing thebook, the one thing that I
really grossly underestimatedwas people's love of food,
nostalgia, right Like if youhave that spot that you felt at
home at and you really love thefood.
You long for that.
(12:26):
So I kept on getting emailsabout not only how people just
love the story, but they lovedthe food behind that story and
they miss that food.
So I really did want to createor find a way to recreate that
experience with people.
But I am not a chef by nature.
(12:47):
I am more or less a home cook.
So there's no way that I couldopen up a restaurant and I don't
even live in Pittsburgh fulltime anymore.
It just wasn't feasible.
But the Kitchen by Vang urareached out to us and said hey,
we have this idea that we wantto talk to you about and they
have this beautiful if youhaven't been 8,000 square foot
(13:09):
open kitchen, stadium seatingstyle space.
Doug (13:14):
It is like the Food Network food stadium.
It's kind of crazy, it is.
It's insane.
Maria (13:19):
I actually I live right outside of New York City and the
company that I work for.
We shared space with a placethat I work for.
We shared space with a placethat was used for food network
sets.
Doug (13:30):
The.
Maria (13:30):
Kitchen by Vangura in Irwin blows this place away Like
totally you know, if youhaven't been, there's three
jumbo-trons that really you knowzoom into exactly what you're
doing.
You're mic'd up, it's just.
It's an amazing experience.
But they said, you know we'dlike to recreate the restaurant.
You guys can pick the food youknow based upon your signature
(13:54):
dishes.
You pick the time we'll provideyou with.
The chef will provide you witha way of taking all the
reservations and settingeverything up.
We'll provide you with a way oftaking all the reservations and
setting everything up.
You guys just show up on thenight of and recreate the
environment.
That once was the prima donna,and so that's how that got
started, which was amazing.
(14:15):
And I know my dad will talkabout some of the signature
dishes of the restaurant too.
Doug (14:21):
Yeah.
Maria (14:34):
What were some of the things you cooked that night, or
just like to still cook now,which is medallions of chicken
with peppers, onions, olives,mushrooms, mushrooms In a red
sauce, yeah.
We did fried zucchini becauseyou have to right you have to do
the fried zucchini yeah thatwas always our go-to appetizer,
(14:57):
and then we did an Italian rumcake for dessert, and that was
also on the menu all the time,all the time, all the desserts
were made in-house, some of thesignature dishes that we had
that we loved, you know, like aveal or chicken parmesan.
Joe (15:12):
Today the chicken parm or the veal parm comes in frozen,
already breaded, and all therestaurants do is just deep fry
them Blasphemy, yeah, how darethey?
The prima donna, the chicken webought, deboned it, potted it
out, breaded it, same with theveal, but everything was pan
(15:35):
fried and then baked.
So it was nothing was deepfried.
You know all the parmesan.
Doug (15:41):
That technique?
Why is that so much?
It is better.
You know all the parmesan, thattechnique.
Joe (15:45):
Why is that so much?
It is better, it's so thechicken and the veal comes out
so juicy.
After you pound out the chickenor veal In a deep fryer, you
get all this crust around theedges and it's harder.
Yes, when you pan fry and bakeit it takes a ton.
You need more people in thekitchen.
(16:06):
Yes, and it takes a lot of work.
You know, if you just deep fryit, you just throw it in and
pull it back out.
But we're breading the stuff toorder and it's unbelievable.
All the veals.
I bought a whole leg of veal.
We cut the veal off the leg andthen all of it was not breaded
(16:27):
or anything to that effect.
And then we did that, had it inthe refrigerator.
So everything was made to order.
There was a dish calledspaghetti con sausage, which was
chunks of loose sausage withmushrooms, onions, green peppers
and a red sauce.
The difference between PrimaDonna and most other restaurants
(16:50):
is that we had loose sausage,not links.
So we chunked the sausage up,you know, kind of like a
meatball, but not that uniform.
Yes, so you had that.
I'll take that.
Yeah, it was so good.
All these unique pastas.
We had 32 differentmade-to-order pastas, all the
(17:14):
Alfredos and all the other weremade.
The sauces were made to order.
Now, of course we did eight to10 gallons of sauce a day and of
course you know, if somebodywere spaghetti meatball, the
sauce was on the, you know, onthe- Because it had to be on the
kettle.
Doug (17:32):
That's just what you had to do.
That's right, but you weren'ttaking shortcuts in any of this
other stuff.
No, none of it.
Joe (17:37):
No, all the meatballs were made with a ground veal that
were scraps from the scraps wecut from the leg and ground
chuck I mean.
So the meatballs were so soft.
Most people buying meatballstoday they're just buying them
frozen.
There's a lot of filler inthere the homemade wedding soup.
(17:57):
The meatballs were actuallymade.
We made them small.
Oh my goodness, most peoplejust buy them now.
Doug (18:04):
I buy the bag at Penn Mac.
I'm lazy.
Joe (18:06):
Exactly Everybody is.
All the restaurants are too, sothese are things that made the
restaurant different.
Back then, all the shrimp thatwe had was de-shelled and
de-veined by hand, whichnowadays they just come in
already de-shelled by hand,which nowadays they just come in
already disheveled.
But back then if you wantedreally good shrimp, this is what
(18:29):
you had to do.
Every soup was made in-houseevery day.
We had two to three soups a dayAmazing amazing.
Doug (18:38):
Yeah, I do want to go back , since you mentioned the rum
cake.
Joe (18:49):
I also recall your wife Donna made the chocolate
cheesecake and the regular newyork style cheesecake.
Doug (18:51):
your mom made apple pie, apple pie, my goodness, yeah,
tiramisu we made it in.
Joe (18:54):
Oh, that's right, because you had to figure it out,
because it was new, right, HarryMet Sally?
Yeah I had no idea yeah,Sleepless in Seattle yeah,
Sleepless in Seattle theymentioned it and it went crazy
all over the country.
Doug (19:06):
But it sounded like yours just from the description.
It sounded like a looser, likeone lady finger.
Joe (19:12):
Yeah, lady fingers, you had like a pillow of the mascarpone
Mascarpone.
I am visual.
Doug (19:17):
I think that's one of the best things that, maria, you and
your co-author did, some of thedescriptions of the food.
Yeah, that was fun.
That is really what brought mein too, because, to your earlier
point and to all thesecustomers that have experienced
it, is all that connected memoryto taste and flavor.
It reminds you of where you areor where you've been that's
right and who you were with.
Maria (19:36):
That's right, just incredible.
It's a better time.
It was fun writing about thefood, and I think what's even
more fun now is hearing,whenever people are reading the
book, getting really nasty textmessages, that they had to do
Uber Eats at two in the morningbecause they were reading about
the zucchini or the tiramisu,and this is what happens, and so
(20:01):
that's when, as a writer, youknow that you've done your job
when you get those types ofnasty text messages from people.
Doug (20:08):
I didn't text you, but guilty.
You felt that way we were goingout to dinner that night and
between a kind of bar spot orItalian.
I'm like we're going to theItalian place.
I just have to Right.
Joe (20:18):
So Hi, I'm Joseph Costanzo Jr.
Maria (20:24):
And I'm Maria C Palmer.
Joe (20:26):
And you're listening to The Pittsburgh Dish.
Maria (20:29):
Dish.
Doug (20:30):
Is there a couple of dishes from the restaurant that
you do make regularly at home?
Maria (20:38):
So we would do this chicken Milano special, which is
medallions of chicken breast.
It has onions, it has sauteedmushrooms, tomatoes.
Artichoke hearts Artichokehearts, yep, and it's in a white
wine butter sauce with a splashof clam juice and I believe,
(21:00):
does it have.
Do we do a little bit of caperstoo?
Joe (21:03):
I can't remember it has maybe it's just the clam juice.
Yeah, it's just the clam juicethat has that kind of a tart.
Yeah, that tart flavor.
I would never have done that.
Yeah, it was fabulous.
People loved it.
Anything with artichoke heartspeople would go after.
Maria (21:15):
Yeah, it was just part of the times, yeah, and so that's
one of my go-to comfort dishes.
Doug (21:26):
Now, there was a dish named after you at the
restaurant.
That wasn't really a dish thatyou loved.
Maria (21:31):
No, I hated it.
Was that a veal dish?
Yeah, and I don't eat veal.
A lot of people did though yes,a lot of people did and a lot
of people loved that dish and itwas never my favorite.
Joe (21:42):
That's right.
Yeah, it was.
You know, medallions of freshveal in kind of like an Alfredo
type of sauce.
What else was in there?
Doug (21:51):
I can't remember right now it is in the book.
Maria (21:54):
I can't remember either but it definitely had some
vegetables.
Catherine (21:57):
I should know this because I did, I'm working on a
new book, it was only 17 years.
Maria (22:02):
I know right, but I'm working on a new book that's a
narrative cookbook that has thisdish in it.
Joe (22:07):
So I should know this off the top of my head, but I cannot
think of it right now and onedish that was so unique and I
was the only one in the citythat had this pasta, and I got
the pasta from New York City.
It was black pasta, which wassquid ink pasta.
(22:28):
The pasta was dyed by the inkof the squid.
It was a fettuccine noodle.
It had a little differenttexture to it and a little
different taste.
We served it with fresh seascallops and green peppers, red
roasted peppers and onions in anolive oil and garlic sauce.
(22:51):
So it's shine.
I bet it just looked beautiful.
It looked beautiful.
People would ask me about itand I would say, if you're not
daring, I don't think you shouldeat it because it has a
different texture to it.
But people loved it who loveblack pasta.
Now you can get it in someplaces.
Doug (23:09):
Again.
You were probably a pioneerback then.
Squid ink pasta was not onanybody else's menu no, not at
all.
Joe (23:13):
And then there was another dish that people who liked
chicken livers I was going toask you about that one.
Heather (23:19):
It was called spaghetti caruso.
Joe (23:21):
It was fresh chicken livers with mushrooms and onions in a
red sauce.
Okay, and people loved it.
Now I don't really like chickenlivers but in that sauce with
the pasta, it made the sauceunique and different.
The flavor and people.
There was nobody in the citythat had that except me.
(23:44):
I got that off of my chef, TonyMastondrea, who was from Naples
, and they cooked it there.
So I got these ideas frompeople who were indigenous
Italians that cooked this typeof stuff in Italy.
Doug (24:02):
Fabulous.
You had the goods because youhad the right folks in the
kitchen.
That's right.
You were the right person outin front.
Joe (24:09):
That's right.
Yeah, Everything came together.
You know Recipe for success?
That's it.
Doug (24:16):
I think what's also quintessentially Pittsburgh to
me when I read about theexperience people were having
there and the location.
There's always this uniquePittsburgh thing about being a
little gritty and a littledifferent and special and I love
that.
People had to go to the rocksto go to your place and they had
to.
Maybe if they were a littlemore I don't know in an upscale
(24:38):
mindset, they had to take a risk.
Joe (24:40):
That's right, that was fun and they did that.
Yeah, and like even the foodcritic, Mike Kalina, they said
it became chic to go to RavishMcKee's Rock.
Yes, that's right, Joe Costanzomade it chic.
Doug (24:54):
Well, I know we could wax on for a long time about the
food and thank you both so muchfor sharing some of it.
I want to go back to the bookOverwall, because there is a lot
more to the story.
It's about family, it's aboutthe community, it's about
business decisions and mistakes.
When you think about peoplepicking up the book, what are
some things you want them to getout of the book?
Maria (25:17):
You know, I think that one of the things that make
people get them very much drawnto the story is that we do tell
a lot of really great stuffabout the restaurant, about my
dad, about, you know, the pooland how it changed the economy
(25:37):
of McKee's Rocks and really howit changed Pittsburgh.
It became a very important part.
But we also tell some of thedarker sides.
And you know, um, as we looknow at social media, right like
we're always putting our bestfoot forward but you don't see
what's going on behind thatcurtain, and I think one of the
(25:59):
things that people appreciatethe most is that we've told a
very balanced story.
We've admitted whenever thereare things that maybe we weren't
as proud of.
Doug (26:10):
I think part of these for you in this new business was.
It was a learning experience,for sure, and I think overall,
Maria, back to what you'resaying, it's honest humanity.
The whole book shows what itmeans to be a real human being.
Maria (26:25):
Exactly, yeah, I mean everybody in the Rocks.
Joe (26:28):
There's 86 licenses in the rocks.
Everyone had poker machinesexcept me, except for you.
I didn't have poker machines.
I didn't want them.
I didn't necessarily think thatthey were bad, it's just that
it messed up the environmentthat I wanted people to come in.
But once I got the reviewsafter two and a half three years
(26:48):
it was a little bit different.
The whole place turned into arestaurant, upscale place and it
brought in people from outsidethe area.
Without the reviews it neverwould have happened.
It would have just been a localplace.
But the reviews gave therestaurant credibility and
people from Squirrel Hill, MountLebanon, Upper St Clair,
(27:11):
Sewickley came and people fromBeaver County, Washington County
, Westmoreland County, even Erie.
I had people drive two hoursfrom Johnstown to come down.
Doug (27:24):
Amazing.
The point that I also hear fromyou, Joe, is you always had a
vision.
You sort of knew, day to day, Ineed to do a few of these
things to get where my vision is, and so over that time you were
able to transform from that barplace to that upscale place
because you had the prize inmind.
Joe (27:44):
So most people open a restaurant.
It's a restaurant.
I opened up a restaurant thatdidn't have any customers and I
had to generate bar businesstill I got the review and then
it was crazy, but I would do 10dinners a night.
Yes, you know, after thereviews, you know I'm doing 100,
150.
Then after the big review, I'mdoing 250 dinners a night.
(28:08):
That was from four forks tofive forks?
Doug (28:10):
Yes, exactly, and we did not have our Yelp or our Uber
Eats None of that.
People had to really learn fromthe smart marketing that you
were doing word of mouth most ofthe time and the papers on
where to come.
Joe (28:25):
I was buying desserts off of Teresa's Italian bakery,
which she did out of her house,and I got her to move next door
to me because it was an emptystoreroom.
I was going to buy that.
But when I ran for countycommissioner as in the book,
you'll notice that I got intosome major financial distress.
But I gave her the recipe.
(28:47):
She made some of my tiramisuand some of the cannolis, which
was all my recipes.
But she told me she never hadto give directions when anybody
called, because they would comedown to the prima donna and
they'd go.
She'd stay open Fridays andSaturdays late and people would
wait two hours.
They'd go in there and buystuff.
(29:07):
It was fabulous for her but shesaid anybody that ever called,
they asked directions and shewould say do you know where the
Primad onna restaurant is?
And every single person saidyeah.
And she said right next door.
That was her direction.
Maria (29:25):
Yeah, yeah that's marketing, oh my gosh.
And then also on the two-hourwait piece.
So dad had a whole apparel linethat he had shirts that said I
survived the wait at The Primadonna restaurant.
So not only did he havebillboards, uh, tv ads,
newspapers, but people werewalking around with Prima donna
(29:46):
apparel.
Joe (29:47):
And that's been fun too Amazing Jackets, tennis shoes,
T-shirts I actually had at onetime horse and buggy rides
around Stowe Township, mckees,rocks Okay, and I actually paid
for it.
So people are waiting two hours.
They took a horse and buggyride around the rocks and came
(30:10):
back, which is unheard ofUnheard of.
Doug (30:13):
But I think the old adage, the more you give, the more you
get.
Maria (30:16):
And you did For certain.
Doug (30:20):
I want to take us forward.
I know the book's been out fora bit.
When did the book release?
Maria (30:24):
Remind us the book released on August, the 8th,
2023.
Okay so it's almost coming upon a year and a half here,
that's right.
Yeah, which is crazy.
Joe (30:34):
And tell them the first two weeks it came out.
Maria (30:37):
Yeah, so this is not only a story about an underdog, but
this book itself is an underdogand we had lots of challenges
trying to get it published,trying to find an agent you name
it and people were very muchnaysayers about how this
couldn't compete and sit on theshelves with other culinary
(30:59):
memoirs like Anthony Bourdain'sKitchen Confidential and Stanley
Tucci's Taste.
And in the two weeks thatpreceded the book's release we
were the number one culinarymemoir on all of Amazon and
number two was AnthonyBourdain's Kitchen Confidential
and number three was StanleyTucci's Taste.
(31:19):
And I always like to share thatwith people, because when
you're in entrepreneurial spirit, you hear a lot of no's, you
get a lot of laughs, peopledon't take you seriously at all.
But if you can take yourselfseriously and you can have that
sort of hyper focus that my dadhad for The Prima donna and that
(31:40):
I really have had for the book,it says something and those
results then follow, and sothat's been a crazy way to start
this venture and what hashappened since then has actually
even been crazier.
Not just with the Kitchen byVangura stuff, but we also do
cook-in-books experiences, whichare three-hour experiences, an
(32:04):
hour and a half of hands-oncooking, normally some type of
pasta.
We've done regular homemadepasta, We've done ricotta
gnocchi, We've done homemaderaviolis with our marinara sauce
.
That's my grandmother's recipe.
That was, you know how therestaurant recipe was kind of
inspired as well.
And then we sit down and havelunch or dinner and do about an
(32:28):
hour and a half book discussion.
And those have been so popularthat I've done them not only
here in Pittsburgh but in NewJersey, New York, Florida, all
over the place, Because thosetype of experiential elements
are things that people reallyenjoy.
And so, you know, most bookskind of flounder after six
(32:52):
months and I just actually hadto order some new books because
we're out of hardcovers.
Now that's the final hardcover.
Doug (32:59):
She's mentioning the book that Maria and Joe just gave me.
Maria (33:03):
It's on the table here.
Doug (33:03):
So, thank you guys so much , of course, and congratulations
on having to order morehardcovers.
Joe (33:07):
Yes, and we're talking most books are self-published, which
she didn't have to do.
She was able to get a publisherMost people who write books.
200 to 300 books are sold.
We're talking between 7,000 and10,000 books sold a year, which
is unbelievable.
The book has won two nationalawards the New York Book
(33:32):
Festival Award for the bestbiography of 2024, and the
American Book Fest Award for thebest narrative nonfiction book
in 2023.
And it's actually amazing whathas happened and it transformed.
You know I've been bored for 20years.
(33:53):
My wife did tell me, joe, forthe next 20 years, please bore
me, and I did.
But after this book came out,it, you know, it generated so
much publicity after 20 years ofbeing out of business and it
rejuvenated me because I've hadsome major health problems.
(34:13):
Yes, but it made me excitedagain and it brought back
fabulous memories.
Doug (34:21):
You've got one proud dad there.
Maria (34:22):
Oh, I know.
Joe (34:23):
I know he is the best.
And Maria marketed this bookjust as well, if not better,
than I marketed the prima donna.
Doug (34:31):
Well, she's tenacious.
I'm going to tell our listenersshe actually just came to my
house straight from New Jersey.
Joe (34:36):
She hasn't even gone home yet?
No, no, she hasn't.
Maria (34:39):
I told you.
I said let's make 3 o'clockjust in case I hit some traffic.
Thank you guys so much.
Doug (34:45):
You have had a tremendous time.
Since the book has launched, itdoesn't sound like it's let up
yet, so I sort of wanted to askwhat's on the horizon.
Maria (34:56):
We have a lot of really fun events coming up, actually
within the next month.
We've taken a little bit of abreather here over the winter,
our own little hibernation, butwe're ready to get back out
there again.
So March 23rd, which is aSunday, you can see us at Flour
Power in Allison.
Doug (35:13):
Park.
I have done some cooking thingsthere myself.
Isn't it amazing?
It's a great little place.
Maria (35:19):
It's a great space, so we're going to be and Amy is
great.
We're going to be making somericotta, gnocchi and homemade
sauce and then we're back againin April, and April the 25th we
will be at the Kitchen byVangura at 6:30pm.
And that's going to be for ThePrima donna pop up night.
(35:41):
So that will be a four coursetasting menu, inspired recipes
from the Primad onna.
That is a BYO as well.
Really fun night of food anddiscussion.
And then you'll actually findus the next day, on Saturday,
(36:04):
April the 26th, in Spring Hilland North side at High Street
Studios, which is a place verynear and dear to us.
We love Dax Paris and we'regoing to be doing a homemade
pasta cook and book that dayfrom 11 to 2.
So we hope that you definitelydo join us for one of those
events, and I'm sure we're goingto be having some more things
coming up in the later springand early summer as well.
Doug (36:26):
So we're coming up on not quite two years of the book
being out and you're busier thanever.
Yes, if people want to followyou for these events, is there a
Facebook page or a website theyshould be going to?
Can you remind us what thoseare?
Maria (36:41):
Absolutely so.
My website is probably the bestcatch-all for everything, and
that is Maria M-A-R-I-A C, likecat palmer, P-A-L-M-E-Rcom, and
our Facebook and Instagramhandle is at Joe Costanzo, like
(37:02):
my dad, J-O-E-C-O-S-T-A-N-Z-O.
Prima Donna, like therestaurant P-R-I-M-A-D-O-N-N-A,
and we post things about exactlywhat we're doing, all of the
events that we have upcoming,and also you can join my
newsletter on the website too,which helps you out to do that
(37:24):
too.
Joe (37:24):
Excellent.
Also, you talk about the bookitself.
There's been interest of aBroadway play, there's been
interest about a movie.
These things are in its infancy, infancy there's potential on a
(37:54):
show, a play, in Pittsburgh onBroadway.
Maria (37:55):
So we'll just wait and see.
Yeah, and if you are one ofthose people that's listening
here today to Doug's podcast,please do reach out, because we
really think that this wouldmake an excellent screenplay,
and or script.
Doug (38:08):
I second that.
I mean you can't create thiskind of a story.
Joe (38:12):
It's so real, it is real 35 years ago, Robert De Niro was
going to play me.
I was going to ask who Now he'sgoing to play my dad.
Okay, I don't know if ChristianBale is young enough or not,
but that might be You'll take ityeah.
(38:32):
He played in Vice Dick Cheneyand my wife, if everybody can
remember, and of course you haveto be old now to remember
Charlie's Angels.
But the person that would havebeen the perfect actress to play
Donna Costanzo would beJacqueline Smith Beautiful,
(38:56):
classy, and the big thing wasthat my wife made the restaurant
.
She made it classy.
She was a classy person, anex-flight attendant model, and
she was in the rocks.
People would come in and saythat has to be Joe's wife,
because there's nobody with thatmuch class and that much beauty
(39:18):
that would come down to therocks and work.
What a compliment.
Doug (39:22):
Yeah, oh well, we've covered so much ground and I
could keep going.
Yeah, me too.
I do have just one morequestion for both of you, and
it's going to bring us back tohow we usually end our shows.
The name of the podcast is ThePittsburgh Dish.
You people seem like foodpeople.
(39:45):
What's the best dish you'veeaten this past week?
Maria (39:51):
Okay, I have mine.
So, and mine is actually from achain restaurant, it's from
Bahama Breeze, but it's a pieceof red snapper and it had mango
avocado and it had this glaze onthe side glaze on the side,
(40:22):
drawn butter, dijon mustard and,I believe, either like a smidge
of vinegar or maybe some capersto kind of create that like
tartness over a white, stickysushi type of rice.
It was really amazing, really,really good, and actually not
bad for you either.
So for me, that is, I think,the best type of food right
(40:43):
that's high in taste but alsohigh in nutritional value.
So I think that was the bestthing that I ate this week All
right, Joe.
Doug (40:53):
what was your best dish this week?
Joe (40:55):
I'm really glad you asked that question.
My younger daughter, Kelly.
She made homemade raviolis andhomemade fettuccine pasta and a
buddy of mine months ago gave mea sauce that he made with loose
sausage onions made with loosesausage onions and hot banana
(41:17):
peppers, in a red sauce, ofcourse, and my wife cooked up
the pasta and then she cooked upthe sauce.
Delicious, I had it for twodays.
Doug (41:29):
Sounds amazing.
I'm jealous.
Joe (41:32):
So, jealous.
Doug (41:34):
Well, I just want to say thank you again for your time
for sharing your story and thankyou for being on The Pittsburgh
Dish.
Maria (41:43):
Thank you.
Thanks for having us, Doug.
Joe (41:45):
Thank you, Doug.
We really appreciate yourenthusiasm for the book and for
our story, and thank you so much.
It was our pleasure coming down.
Maria (42:02):
Same here and I love to see your journey as well.
I think it's been so wonderfuljust to start out following each
other on Instagram, and I loveto see all of the wins that
you're having.
It's amazing what you have doneand what you have become.
You are Pittsburgh food royalty.
What you have done and what youhave become you are Pittsburgh
food royalty.
So thank you, Doug.
Doug (42:21):
Well, I certainly think Joe and Maria are also part of
Pittsburgh food royalty.
And up next, since we'retalking about royalty, let's
discover an Italian wine that'sfit for a king.
Hey, everybody, we're joinedonce again with our favorite
wine expert, Catherine Montestof Your Fairy Wine Mother.
Hey, Catherine, welcome back.
We're in 2025.
Can't believe it.
(42:41):
I know so, Catherine.
We just heard about the storyof the Costanzo family, the rise
and the fall of the Primad onnarestaurant in McKees Rocks, and
so many great dishes that cameout of that.
So you know hearty red sauceswith chunks of sausage and
veggies, a chicken medalliondish with white wine.
I was just wondering do any ofthose dishes conjure a wine pick
(43:05):
for you?
Heather (43:06):
Well, they sure do, because I remember going to the
Primad onna years ago and justfeeling like I was eating like
royalty and a wine that reallykind of aligns with that and
just the richness and the beautyof the food, is a Nebbiolo
Nebbiolo.
Nebbiolo is a grape grown inItaly and there's two wines that
(43:27):
are made from the NebbioloBarolo and a Barbaresco.
Barolo was considered for along time to be the wine of
kings, oh, and is considered tobe the king of wines, oh.
Doug (43:42):
Now what's the second one?
I don't think I've ever heardof the second one.
Heather (43:45):
It's a Barbaresco.
Barbaresco and Italy's fun,different than America where we
tend to name our wines after thegrapes.
The wines over there are namedfor the region, so that's why I
called out our little grapefriend the Nebbiolo.
Okay, that, and we'rePittsburghers, we're Nebby, so
kind of like.
I feel like we should adoptthis grape, I kind of love that
(44:05):
oh.
And the reason I would pick theBarolo or a Barbaresco is
because it has high acid andhigh tannins, so it's got a
really nice structure in yourmouth.
And a lot of those foods arejust so lush and delicious that
the flavors and the structure ofthe wine can hold up to all of
(44:27):
those beautiful Italian foodsthey were serving.
Doug (44:29):
Oh my gosh.
Yes, he was talking about howthey used to, you know, cut the
veal or the chicken parm, likeright there on site, pan fry it
instead of deep fry it, and solike it was rich, but it was
still crispy and juicy.
I'm sure those wines would gogreat with that.
Heather (44:44):
Absolutely, and they're red wines.
You're going to get flavors ofcherry, red plum, maybe
strawberry, fig, and then someof the more interesting notes
are going to be some of thedried herbs, so that really ties
into a lot of the foods in theItalian repertoire as well.
Even a little bit of cedar andleather, because they are aged
(45:05):
in oak barrels.
So the wines are going to pickup some of those Real
full-bodied, very flavorful, andfor these wines you can expect
to spend about $30.
And up.
Doug (45:17):
So a Barolo or a Barbaresco with your next
Italian meal.
Heather (45:23):
Yes, Catherine, thanks so much.
My pleasure, happy drinking.
Doug (45:28):
You can follow Catherine Montest on Instagram at
yourfairywinemother.
That's U- R Fairy Wine Mother.
With all of this talk ofItalian cuisine, you might have
the urge to cook up something athome yourself.
Our friend, heather of KDKA'sTalk Pittsburgh and Pittsburgh
Today Live, shares her husbandFrankie's recipe for meatballs.
(45:49):
Heather, last time we weretalking on the show, we were
talking about Frankie's meatballrecipe that you love and you
dropped a couple hints about howhe makes it.
Could we actually go throughthe full recipe?
Sure.
Catherine (46:03):
Okay, so I've only observed, and it's usually.
I'm drinking a glass of wineand watching him cook.
Doug (46:09):
Oh, that's okay.
Yeah, we'll put the recipe upon the blog for, like the full
details, we don't have to gointo exact measurements.
Catherine (46:15):
Okay, so on the blog for like the full details, we
don't have to go into exactmeasurements.
Okay, so here is.
I will tell you the two keys tothis one.
You must buy the like the oldschool meatloaf mix, so it has
to be beef, veal and pork and alittle bit of warm water.
Doug (46:31):
All right.
Catherine (46:31):
So you're adding that in.
I don't know what it does ifit's like an extra moisture, but
it makes the meatballs sotender.
You'll add in a little bit ofseasoned breadcrumbs.
Sometimes he'll add in somefresh basil as well, or parsley
and salt and pepper.
Doug (46:47):
No cheese, any cheese.
Catherine (46:48):
He doesn't put cheese in meatballs.
Every once in a while he'llsneak a little bit in, but it's
not like part of the mainstayrecipe.
If you have some extra parmesan, like shredded, and you wanted
to put it in, have at it, okay.
And then he fries those in oil,all right.
And then he sets them out likelets them kind of drip, dry onto
kind of a cookie.
Doug (47:05):
Yeah, like a wire rack, something like that.
Catherine (47:08):
Does that, and then he will put them back into the
sauce to cook to finish cooking.
It's amazing.
Doug (47:14):
Oh, that sounds so perfect .
So, good when he makes them.
Do you have any idea?
Like is he using?
Like out of the meatball mix?
How many he gets out of?
I'm wondering how big they are.
Catherine (47:23):
Anywhere from a dozen to two.
Doug (47:25):
Okay, you know, it depends A golf ball size.
Yeah, okay.
Catherine (47:28):
Yeah, I would say somewhere in that range,
probably more like a dozen and ahalf.
I would say that's pretty goodyeah.
Doug (47:33):
Now in Frankie's mind, and maybe in your mind, what is the
best pasta shape to go withmeatballs?
Catherine (47:39):
Oh, this is a big debate too.
I'm a big rigatoni fan and Ithink it's because when I would
visit with my dad's side of thefamily, anytime my grandma would
make homemade sauce, and shewas not Italian, but anytime she
would make her homemade sauce.
She always served it withrigatoni.
Doug (47:55):
Yeah.
Catherine (47:56):
And so for me it's like the only way to eat red
sauce is with Rigatoni.
Yeah.
Doug (48:02):
And rigatoni is so nice and toothsome.
I like it because you canreally get your fork on it.
Catherine (48:06):
Right, he's a big, he likes like a good spaghetti.
Doug (48:11):
Oh, this is Frankie.
Catherine (48:12):
This is Frankie.
Doug (48:13):
Yeah, I mean, I get spaghetti and meatballs too.
That just seems like old schooltradition.
Catherine (48:17):
Right, I respect it.
Yeah, the kids are.
They'll go angel hair everytime.
They love angel hair pasta.
Doug (48:23):
Oh, my least favorite, but quick to cook.
Catherine (48:25):
It's very quick to cook.
Doug (48:26):
You know what it's delicate, though, and that's
probably what they like it is.
Heather Abraham.
Thanks so much.
Of course, we're so happy to beback for a second year of shows
.
If you want to support thepodcast, you can buy us a coffee
by clicking the link near thebottom of this show's
description or tap that supportbutton at the top of our website
(48:48):
, www.
pittsburghdish.
com.
And if you want to follow moreof my personal food adventures,
you can find me @DougCooking onsocial media.
That's our show for this week.
Thanks again to our guests andcontributors and to Kevin
Solecki of Carnegie AccordionCompany for providing the music
to our show.
We'll be back again next weekwith another fresh episode.
(49:11):
Stay tuned.
Hey everyone, welcome to The Pittsburgh Dish.
We're back from winter breakwith our first episode of 2025.
I'm your host, Doug Heilman.
What's the real story behind abygone landmark restaurant in
McKees Rocks?
This week, we talk to thefamily behind The Primadonna.
Have you tried an Italian winethat's fit for a king?
(00:22):
Catherine Montest introduces usto the king of wines that's
backed by a nebby grape, and ourfriend Heather Abraham wraps up
the episode with a familymeatball recipe.
What's the secret ingredient?
Well, just turn on the tap.
All that ahead.
Stay tuned.
Thank you both for coming overand being on the show.
(00:44):
Would you introduce yourselvesto our listeners?
Joe (00:50):
Sure, I'm Joseph Costanzo Jr.
I am the former owner of ThePrimad onna Restaurant in McKees
Rocks from 1986 to 2005.
And we're here because mydaughter wrote a book about my
experiences in the restaurantbusiness and it's called On the
(01:11):
Rocks, the Primad onna.
Doug (01:12):
Story.
Well, there you go.
He gave you a nice lead in.
Maria (01:15):
Yeah, he did so.
Thank you so much again forhaving us, Doug.
My name is Maria C Palmer.
I am the co-author of the bookOn the Rocks, which is the rise
and fall of my father, JosephCostanzo Jr, in the, and I'll
tell you one of the taglinesI've used for this podcast is do
(01:47):
you really know Pittsburgh'slocal food scene?
Doug (01:50):
And I did not know this story.
I felt like I got such aneducation.
Maria, can you just tell ourlisteners, if they haven't read
On the Rocks yet, how you andyour co-author approached
writing the book, Because I knowit took a little?
Be more of a family history.
Maria (02:06):
I knew my dad had a very interesting life, but it wasn't
until I started asking verypointed questions as a writer
(02:33):
that I started to realize thatthis was more than just
something that we would want toshare for generations of our
family.
This was something that wewould like to share really with
the public.
I'm so glad you did yeah,something that we would like to
share really with the public.
I'm so glad you did yeah.
And as far as working withRuthie, ruthie was my former
high school AP English teacher.
She and I had actually metwhenever I was in middle school
(03:02):
and she followed me Her sons aresimilar age to my sister and I
and she kind of followed herchildren as they aged out of
schools and therefore shefollowed me as a default.
And she grew up in McKee'sRocks, right across the street
from what once was therestaurant.
She was one of my dad's firstcustomers and it just made sense
(03:22):
.
She's actually the same exactage as my dad too.
So that opening scene that'scalled the Rocks, that is
actually from her childhood thatshe paints that picture.
Doug (03:32):
And this is Ruthie Robbins this is your co-author to the
book.
Maria (03:36):
Yes, yeah, and she and I really worked very diligently
together.
I always say, you know, Iworked on this for about 10
years by myself and then,whenever Ruthie came in, it only
took seven more years fortrying to make sure that
everything was as factual asfactual can be.
(04:09):
We tried our best to tell thestory with integrity and truth
and to really get the heart ofthe time, the heart of the
restaurant, and thejuxtaposition between what made
this restaurant such an anomalyin a way, and I always say you
(04:34):
know, what my dad did wassomewhat impossible and really
couldn't be replicated in thesame way today, because today we
have a lot of help right.
We have these wonderful podcasts, we have social media, we have
YouTube, we have Yelp.
We have all of these differentways in which average people can
(04:58):
be found.
Back during the 80s, thatwasn't the way that it was, and
most restaurants that weregetting a lot of press and being
seen were restaurants in muchlarger cities like New York or
Chicago or San Francisco.
(05:19):
So to have not only a top ratedrestaurant in the city, but to
have a top-rated restaurant inthe country, Nationally yes.
During that time was, I thought,a story that needed to be told.
Doug (05:33):
So that's why we did it.
I want to just add to anyonethat hasn't read the book it's
told in your dad's voice, joe, Ifeel like I was listening to
you and your oral history of ThePrima donna and I just loved it
and there were so many things Ithink as a local person I'm
like I know that place, oh yeah,the Sheraton.
Oh, of course, like all ofthese little things that kind of
(05:54):
bring you and hook you into thestory.
So I think if you're a personfrom the region and you haven't
read the book, you really needto get your hands on it.
I the book, you really need toget your hands on it.
I wanted to take a step over and, joe, if you could tell
listeners because I'm one ofthem for folks that did not get
(06:14):
to come to The Primad onna andexperience it, can you describe
for us a little bit more aboutthe restaurant?
I mean it was to what Mariasaid such a unique thing for
McKee's Rocks and what you dideven for the community there A
lot of people say who were there.
Joe (06:27):
You really can't explain the restaurant.
You had to be there, Right, itwas a different type of
atmosphere.
I was always there, you know,greeting people, talking to
people and going around table totable, thanking people for
coming in, good customers,giving them, you know, some
(06:48):
desserts on the house or a rideof drinks.
Doug (06:50):
The zucchini, the fried zucchini.
Wondering if you'd show up withsome fried zucchini today and
most restaurateurs don't do that.
Joe (06:59):
So it was unique in that way.
And of course, the food wasfabulous.
You know, I had my cousin fromItaly who cooked over there, two
or three legal immigrants thatcame over cooking the food.
So it was authentic, yes, itwas authentic.
And so the environment wasreally different, because we're
(07:24):
in an area that was tough, anold steel town, so it was kind
of chic.
It became chic to come into therocks and have this great food
and you're there and you'reseeing Jamie Lee Curtis or Tommy
Lasorda, you know, next to you.
So it really was fabulous forthe local people and the you
(07:48):
know the Pittsburgh people, youknow they would see, you know
the Steelers or the Pirates, RayTannehill, from the, you know
Channel 2.
So you know they saw a lot of,you know, celebrities.
But it was kind of like a homeytype of situation.
It wasn't stiffy, formal, itwasn't real pretentious.
(08:10):
So it made it so nice thatpeople come in and people used
to say to me Joe, you treateverybody the same, those
celebrities or the averagepeople the same, and that really
makes us all feel good.
Doug (08:24):
I think that's what makes the Prima donna special.
Is that life that you bring tothat party, so to speak, every
time that you're there, rightthat?
Joe (08:34):
was the difference?
You can walk right past anowner in a restaurant and that
owner, after you spent somemoney, won't even look at you or
won't even thank you, andthat's just the way it is and
was.
But I was able to putpurveyors' names on my menu,
like Ricci's Sausage or Wholey'sFood on the menu, which nobody
(08:58):
did.
And today you see, if you buygift certificates, they're
giving you gift certificates.
You buy $100, they'll give youa $20 bonus type of thing.
I did that 40 years ago.
I started all that.
Doug (09:13):
You were such a pioneer in marketing, that's it.
One of the things I love fromthe book and I don't want to
give too much away but going toall of the different hotel
concierge and inviting them tothe restaurant and then they
would invite the guests of thehotels, yes, People would come
down Amazing People would comedown and say you know, we're?
Joe (09:30):
we're staying at the Hilton refreshment in Chicago and the
concierge told us that this isthe best Italian restaurant.
Yes, Well, I would go back downthere and thank them.
You know, give them a $50 giftcertificate to come down.
And anytime anybody ever comein and wanted an Italian
restaurant, they'd say writedown 65.
You're there in five or 10minutes.
(09:52):
Mention that we sent you.
You'll get an appetizer.
So I did that with the Vista,the Westin, William Penn, the
Hilton, and everybody was thereand they sent all these people
down and that's how it allworked.
It was just, everybody wantedwhat I had, but nobody would do
(10:13):
what I did.
Doug (10:14):
You had great ideas and original ideas and I was able to
share the wealth.
Joe (10:19):
Yes, and that's the bottom line.
And I had a product and we hadlinen tablecloths.
You had a maitre d' All thiswas all part of it and you had
the owner talking to you.
Doug (10:34):
It had soul to it because you were there, right.
But such shrewd and smart ideasfor someone that you know, you
took this leap from postalcarrier to restaurateur kind of
overnight Right Amazing.
And I do also want to say youspent like 17-hour days there,
oh yeah every day.
Joe (10:53):
We were closed on Sundays, which would have been a great
day, but I had little children.
Maria was four, kelly was ninemonths my two daughters.
When I first got in there I was32 years old at the time, but
Sundays I still spent eighthours down there just doing
payroll disbursements receipts.
(11:13):
After the kids, we went tochurch, after the kids went to
bed, I went down there.
I never went to a weddingreception in those 20 years that
I was there, went to the churchbut had come back, never went
to a family reception for awedding, total dedication.
(11:33):
It was there, yeah, and I hadfocus, but you loved it, yeah,
and I had focus.
Doug (11:38):
I do want to.
I'll ask this to both of youbecause I saw recently you did.
You've been doing some speakingtours and demos and you were at
the Kitchen at Vangura.
Yes, and you did some cooking.
Can we talk about the food?
Because I got to tell you, asI'm reading the book, the thing
that pains me the most is that Inever got to go.
That's what I loved.
(11:59):
I was so glad that youmentioned a few of the dishes,
like the pasta with the bacon,and I, like I want to make those
things.
Maria (12:06):
Oh, yes, oh absolutely, and you know, I think, that
whenever we were writing thebook, the one thing that I
really grossly underestimatedwas people's love of food,
nostalgia, right Like if youhave that spot that you felt at
home at and you really love thefood.
You long for that.
(12:26):
So I kept on getting emailsabout not only how people just
love the story, but they lovedthe food behind that story and
they miss that food.
So I really did want to createor find a way to recreate that
experience with people.
But I am not a chef by nature.
(12:47):
I am more or less a home cook.
So there's no way that I couldopen up a restaurant and I don't
even live in Pittsburgh fulltime anymore.
It just wasn't feasible.
But the Kitchen by Vang urareached out to us and said hey,
we have this idea that we wantto talk to you about and they
have this beautiful if youhaven't been 8,000 square foot
(13:09):
open kitchen, stadium seatingstyle space.
Doug (13:14):
It is like the Food Network food stadium.
It's kind of crazy, it is.
It's insane.
Maria (13:19):
I actually I live right outside of New York City and the
company that I work for.
We shared space with a placethat I work for.
We shared space with a placethat was used for food network
sets.
Doug (13:30):
The.
Maria (13:30):
Kitchen by Vangura in Irwin blows this place away Like
totally you know, if youhaven't been, there's three
jumbo-trons that really you knowzoom into exactly what you're
doing.
You're mic'd up, it's just.
It's an amazing experience.
But they said, you know we'dlike to recreate the restaurant.
You guys can pick the food youknow based upon your signature
(13:54):
dishes.
You pick the time we'll provideyou with.
The chef will provide you witha way of taking all the
reservations and settingeverything up.
We'll provide you with a way oftaking all the reservations and
setting everything up.
You guys just show up on thenight of and recreate the
environment.
That once was the prima donna,and so that's how that got
started, which was amazing.
(14:15):
And I know my dad will talkabout some of the signature
dishes of the restaurant too.
Doug (14:21):
Yeah.
Maria (14:34):
What were some of the things you cooked that night, or
just like to still cook now,which is medallions of chicken
with peppers, onions, olives,mushrooms, mushrooms In a red
sauce, yeah.
We did fried zucchini becauseyou have to right you have to do
the fried zucchini yeah thatwas always our go-to appetizer,
(14:57):
and then we did an Italian rumcake for dessert, and that was
also on the menu all the time,all the time, all the desserts
were made in-house, some of thesignature dishes that we had
that we loved, you know, like aveal or chicken parmesan.
Joe (15:12):
Today the chicken parm or the veal parm comes in frozen,
already breaded, and all therestaurants do is just deep fry
them Blasphemy, yeah, how darethey?
The prima donna, the chicken webought, deboned it, potted it
out, breaded it, same with theveal, but everything was pan
(15:35):
fried and then baked.
So it was nothing was deepfried.
You know all the parmesan.
Doug (15:41):
That technique?
Why is that so much?
It is better.
You know all the parmesan, thattechnique.
Joe (15:45):
Why is that so much?
It is better, it's so thechicken and the veal comes out
so juicy.
After you pound out the chickenor veal In a deep fryer, you
get all this crust around theedges and it's harder.
Yes, when you pan fry and bakeit it takes a ton.
You need more people in thekitchen.
(16:06):
Yes, and it takes a lot of work.
You know, if you just deep fryit, you just throw it in and
pull it back out.
But we're breading the stuff toorder and it's unbelievable.
All the veals.
I bought a whole leg of veal.
We cut the veal off the leg andthen all of it was not breaded
(16:27):
or anything to that effect.
And then we did that, had it inthe refrigerator.
So everything was made to order.
There was a dish calledspaghetti con sausage, which was
chunks of loose sausage withmushrooms, onions, green peppers
and a red sauce.
The difference between PrimaDonna and most other restaurants
(16:50):
is that we had loose sausage,not links.
So we chunked the sausage up,you know, kind of like a
meatball, but not that uniform.
Yes, so you had that.
I'll take that.
Yeah, it was so good.
All these unique pastas.
We had 32 differentmade-to-order pastas, all the
(17:14):
Alfredos and all the other weremade.
The sauces were made to order.
Now, of course we did eight to10 gallons of sauce a day and of
course you know, if somebodywere spaghetti meatball, the
sauce was on the, you know, onthe- Because it had to be on the
kettle.
Doug (17:32):
That's just what you had to do.
That's right, but you weren'ttaking shortcuts in any of this
other stuff.
No, none of it.
Joe (17:37):
No, all the meatballs were made with a ground veal that
were scraps from the scraps wecut from the leg and ground
chuck I mean.
So the meatballs were so soft.
Most people buying meatballstoday they're just buying them
frozen.
There's a lot of filler inthere the homemade wedding soup.
(17:57):
The meatballs were actuallymade.
We made them small.
Oh my goodness, most peoplejust buy them now.
Doug (18:04):
I buy the bag at Penn Mac.
I'm lazy.
Joe (18:06):
Exactly Everybody is.
All the restaurants are too, sothese are things that made the
restaurant different.
Back then, all the shrimp thatwe had was de-shelled and
de-veined by hand, whichnowadays they just come in
already de-shelled by hand,which nowadays they just come in
already disheveled.
But back then if you wantedreally good shrimp, this is what
(18:29):
you had to do.
Every soup was made in-houseevery day.
We had two to three soups a dayAmazing amazing.
Doug (18:38):
Yeah, I do want to go back , since you mentioned the rum
cake.
Joe (18:49):
I also recall your wife Donna made the chocolate
cheesecake and the regular newyork style cheesecake.
Doug (18:51):
your mom made apple pie, apple pie, my goodness, yeah,
tiramisu we made it in.
Joe (18:54):
Oh, that's right, because you had to figure it out,
because it was new, right, HarryMet Sally?
Yeah I had no idea yeah,Sleepless in Seattle yeah,
Sleepless in Seattle theymentioned it and it went crazy
all over the country.
Doug (19:06):
But it sounded like yours just from the description.
It sounded like a looser, likeone lady finger.
Joe (19:12):
Yeah, lady fingers, you had like a pillow of the mascarpone
Mascarpone.
I am visual.
Doug (19:17):
I think that's one of the best things that, maria, you and
your co-author did, some of thedescriptions of the food.
Yeah, that was fun.
That is really what brought mein too, because, to your earlier
point and to all thesecustomers that have experienced
it, is all that connected memoryto taste and flavor.
It reminds you of where you areor where you've been that's
right and who you were with.
Maria (19:36):
That's right, just incredible.
It's a better time.
It was fun writing about thefood, and I think what's even
more fun now is hearing,whenever people are reading the
book, getting really nasty textmessages, that they had to do
Uber Eats at two in the morningbecause they were reading about
the zucchini or the tiramisu,and this is what happens, and so
(20:01):
that's when, as a writer, youknow that you've done your job
when you get those types ofnasty text messages from people.
Doug (20:08):
I didn't text you, but guilty.
You felt that way we were goingout to dinner that night and
between a kind of bar spot orItalian.
I'm like we're going to theItalian place.
I just have to Right.
Joe (20:18):
So Hi, I'm Joseph Costanzo Jr.
Maria (20:24):
And I'm Maria C Palmer.
Joe (20:26):
And you're listening to The Pittsburgh Dish.
Maria (20:29):
Dish.
Doug (20:30):
Is there a couple of dishes from the restaurant that
you do make regularly at home?
Maria (20:38):
So we would do this chicken Milano special, which is
medallions of chicken breast.
It has onions, it has sauteedmushrooms, tomatoes.
Artichoke hearts Artichokehearts, yep, and it's in a white
wine butter sauce with a splashof clam juice and I believe,
(21:00):
does it have.
Do we do a little bit of caperstoo?
Joe (21:03):
I can't remember it has maybe it's just the clam juice.
Yeah, it's just the clam juicethat has that kind of a tart.
Yeah, that tart flavor.
I would never have done that.
Yeah, it was fabulous.
People loved it.
Anything with artichoke heartspeople would go after.
Maria (21:15):
Yeah, it was just part of the times, yeah, and so that's
one of my go-to comfort dishes.
Doug (21:26):
Now, there was a dish named after you at the
restaurant.
That wasn't really a dish thatyou loved.
Maria (21:31):
No, I hated it.
Was that a veal dish?
Yeah, and I don't eat veal.
A lot of people did though yes,a lot of people did and a lot
of people loved that dish and itwas never my favorite.
Joe (21:42):
That's right.
Yeah, it was.
You know, medallions of freshveal in kind of like an Alfredo
type of sauce.
What else was in there?
Doug (21:51):
I can't remember right now it is in the book.
Maria (21:54):
I can't remember either but it definitely had some
vegetables.
Catherine (21:57):
I should know this because I did, I'm working on a
new book, it was only 17 years.
Maria (22:02):
I know right, but I'm working on a new book that's a
narrative cookbook that has thisdish in it.
Joe (22:07):
So I should know this off the top of my head, but I cannot
think of it right now and onedish that was so unique and I
was the only one in the citythat had this pasta, and I got
the pasta from New York City.
It was black pasta, which wassquid ink pasta.
(22:28):
The pasta was dyed by the inkof the squid.
It was a fettuccine noodle.
It had a little differenttexture to it and a little
different taste.
We served it with fresh seascallops and green peppers, red
roasted peppers and onions in anolive oil and garlic sauce.
(22:51):
So it's shine.
I bet it just looked beautiful.
It looked beautiful.
People would ask me about itand I would say, if you're not
daring, I don't think you shouldeat it because it has a
different texture to it.
But people loved it who loveblack pasta.
Now you can get it in someplaces.
Doug (23:09):
Again.
You were probably a pioneerback then.
Squid ink pasta was not onanybody else's menu no, not at
all.
Joe (23:13):
And then there was another dish that people who liked
chicken livers I was going toask you about that one.
Heather (23:19):
It was called spaghetti caruso.
Joe (23:21):
It was fresh chicken livers with mushrooms and onions in a
red sauce.
Okay, and people loved it.
Now I don't really like chickenlivers but in that sauce with
the pasta, it made the sauceunique and different.
The flavor and people.
There was nobody in the citythat had that except me.
(23:44):
I got that off of my chef, TonyMastondrea, who was from Naples
, and they cooked it there.
So I got these ideas frompeople who were indigenous
Italians that cooked this typeof stuff in Italy.
Doug (24:02):
Fabulous.
You had the goods because youhad the right folks in the
kitchen.
That's right.
You were the right person outin front.
Joe (24:09):
That's right.
Yeah, Everything came together.
You know Recipe for success?
That's it.
Doug (24:16):
I think what's also quintessentially Pittsburgh to
me when I read about theexperience people were having
there and the location.
There's always this uniquePittsburgh thing about being a
little gritty and a littledifferent and special and I love
that.
People had to go to the rocksto go to your place and they had
to.
Maybe if they were a littlemore I don't know in an upscale
(24:38):
mindset, they had to take a risk.
Joe (24:40):
That's right, that was fun and they did that.
Yeah, and like even the foodcritic, Mike Kalina, they said
it became chic to go to RavishMcKee's Rock.
Yes, that's right, Joe Costanzomade it chic.
Doug (24:54):
Well, I know we could wax on for a long time about the
food and thank you both so muchfor sharing some of it.
I want to go back to the bookOverwall, because there is a lot
more to the story.
It's about family, it's aboutthe community, it's about
business decisions and mistakes.
When you think about peoplepicking up the book, what are
some things you want them to getout of the book?
Maria (25:17):
You know, I think that one of the things that make
people get them very much drawnto the story is that we do tell
a lot of really great stuffabout the restaurant, about my
dad, about, you know, the pooland how it changed the economy
(25:37):
of McKee's Rocks and really howit changed Pittsburgh.
It became a very important part.
But we also tell some of thedarker sides.
And you know, um, as we looknow at social media, right like
we're always putting our bestfoot forward but you don't see
what's going on behind thatcurtain, and I think one of the
(25:59):
things that people appreciatethe most is that we've told a
very balanced story.
We've admitted whenever thereare things that maybe we weren't
as proud of.
Doug (26:10):
I think part of these for you in this new business was.
It was a learning experience,for sure, and I think overall,
Maria, back to what you'resaying, it's honest humanity.
The whole book shows what itmeans to be a real human being.
Maria (26:25):
Exactly, yeah, I mean everybody in the Rocks.
Joe (26:28):
There's 86 licenses in the rocks.
Everyone had poker machinesexcept me, except for you.
I didn't have poker machines.
I didn't want them.
I didn't necessarily think thatthey were bad, it's just that
it messed up the environmentthat I wanted people to come in.
But once I got the reviewsafter two and a half three years
(26:48):
it was a little bit different.
The whole place turned into arestaurant, upscale place and it
brought in people from outsidethe area.
Without the reviews it neverwould have happened.
It would have just been a localplace.
But the reviews gave therestaurant credibility and
people from Squirrel Hill, MountLebanon, Upper St Clair,
(27:11):
Sewickley came and people fromBeaver County, Washington County
, Westmoreland County, even Erie.
I had people drive two hoursfrom Johnstown to come down.
Doug (27:24):
Amazing.
The point that I also hear fromyou, Joe, is you always had a
vision.
You sort of knew, day to day, Ineed to do a few of these
things to get where my vision is, and so over that time you were
able to transform from that barplace to that upscale place
because you had the prize inmind.
Joe (27:44):
So most people open a restaurant.
It's a restaurant.
I opened up a restaurant thatdidn't have any customers and I
had to generate bar businesstill I got the review and then
it was crazy, but I would do 10dinners a night.
Yes, you know, after thereviews, you know I'm doing 100,
150.
Then after the big review, I'mdoing 250 dinners a night.
(28:08):
That was from four forks tofive forks?
Doug (28:10):
Yes, exactly, and we did not have our Yelp or our Uber
Eats None of that.
People had to really learn fromthe smart marketing that you
were doing word of mouth most ofthe time and the papers on
where to come.
Joe (28:25):
I was buying desserts off of Teresa's Italian bakery,
which she did out of her house,and I got her to move next door
to me because it was an emptystoreroom.
I was going to buy that.
But when I ran for countycommissioner as in the book,
you'll notice that I got intosome major financial distress.
But I gave her the recipe.
(28:47):
She made some of my tiramisuand some of the cannolis, which
was all my recipes.
But she told me she never hadto give directions when anybody
called, because they would comedown to the prima donna and
they'd go.
She'd stay open Fridays andSaturdays late and people would
wait two hours.
They'd go in there and buystuff.
(29:07):
It was fabulous for her but shesaid anybody that ever called,
they asked directions and shewould say do you know where the
Primad onna restaurant is?
And every single person saidyeah.
And she said right next door.
That was her direction.
Maria (29:25):
Yeah, yeah that's marketing, oh my gosh.
And then also on the two-hourwait piece.
So dad had a whole apparel linethat he had shirts that said I
survived the wait at The Primadonna restaurant.
So not only did he havebillboards, uh, tv ads,
newspapers, but people werewalking around with Prima donna
(29:46):
apparel.
Joe (29:47):
And that's been fun too Amazing Jackets, tennis shoes,
T-shirts I actually had at onetime horse and buggy rides
around Stowe Township, mckees,rocks Okay, and I actually paid
for it.
So people are waiting two hours.
They took a horse and buggyride around the rocks and came
(30:10):
back, which is unheard ofUnheard of.
Doug (30:13):
But I think the old adage, the more you give, the more you
get.
Maria (30:16):
And you did For certain.
Doug (30:20):
I want to take us forward.
I know the book's been out fora bit.
When did the book release?
Maria (30:24):
Remind us the book released on August, the 8th,
2023.
Okay so it's almost coming upon a year and a half here,
that's right.
Yeah, which is crazy.
Joe (30:34):
And tell them the first two weeks it came out.
Maria (30:37):
Yeah, so this is not only a story about an underdog, but
this book itself is an underdogand we had lots of challenges
trying to get it published,trying to find an agent you name
it and people were very muchnaysayers about how this
couldn't compete and sit on theshelves with other culinary
(30:59):
memoirs like Anthony Bourdain'sKitchen Confidential and Stanley
Tucci's Taste.
And in the two weeks thatpreceded the book's release we
were the number one culinarymemoir on all of Amazon and
number two was AnthonyBourdain's Kitchen Confidential
and number three was StanleyTucci's Taste.
(31:19):
And I always like to share thatwith people, because when
you're in entrepreneurial spirit, you hear a lot of no's, you
get a lot of laughs, peopledon't take you seriously at all.
But if you can take yourselfseriously and you can have that
sort of hyper focus that my dadhad for The Prima donna and that
(31:40):
I really have had for the book,it says something and those
results then follow, and sothat's been a crazy way to start
this venture and what hashappened since then has actually
even been crazier.
Not just with the Kitchen byVangura stuff, but we also do
cook-in-books experiences, whichare three-hour experiences, an
(32:04):
hour and a half of hands-oncooking, normally some type of
pasta.
We've done regular homemadepasta, We've done ricotta
gnocchi, We've done homemaderaviolis with our marinara sauce
.
That's my grandmother's recipe.
That was, you know how therestaurant recipe was kind of
inspired as well.
And then we sit down and havelunch or dinner and do about an
(32:28):
hour and a half book discussion.
And those have been so popularthat I've done them not only
here in Pittsburgh but in NewJersey, New York, Florida, all
over the place, Because thosetype of experiential elements
are things that people reallyenjoy.
And so, you know, most bookskind of flounder after six
(32:52):
months and I just actually hadto order some new books because
we're out of hardcovers.
Now that's the final hardcover.
Doug (32:59):
She's mentioning the book that Maria and Joe just gave me.
Maria (33:03):
It's on the table here.
Doug (33:03):
So, thank you guys so much , of course, and congratulations
on having to order morehardcovers.
Joe (33:07):
Yes, and we're talking most books are self-published, which
she didn't have to do.
She was able to get a publisherMost people who write books.
200 to 300 books are sold.
We're talking between 7,000 and10,000 books sold a year, which
is unbelievable.
The book has won two nationalawards the New York Book
(33:32):
Festival Award for the bestbiography of 2024, and the
American Book Fest Award for thebest narrative nonfiction book
in 2023.
And it's actually amazing whathas happened and it transformed.
You know I've been bored for 20years.
(33:53):
My wife did tell me, joe, forthe next 20 years, please bore
me, and I did.
But after this book came out,it, you know, it generated so
much publicity after 20 years ofbeing out of business and it
rejuvenated me because I've hadsome major health problems.
(34:13):
Yes, but it made me excitedagain and it brought back
fabulous memories.
Doug (34:21):
You've got one proud dad there.
Maria (34:22):
Oh, I know.
Joe (34:23):
I know he is the best.
And Maria marketed this bookjust as well, if not better,
than I marketed the prima donna.
Doug (34:31):
Well, she's tenacious.
I'm going to tell our listenersshe actually just came to my
house straight from New Jersey.
Joe (34:36):
She hasn't even gone home yet?
No, no, she hasn't.
Maria (34:39):
I told you.
I said let's make 3 o'clockjust in case I hit some traffic.
Thank you guys so much.
Doug (34:45):
You have had a tremendous time.
Since the book has launched, itdoesn't sound like it's let up
yet, so I sort of wanted to askwhat's on the horizon.
Maria (34:56):
We have a lot of really fun events coming up, actually
within the next month.
We've taken a little bit of abreather here over the winter,
our own little hibernation, butwe're ready to get back out
there again.
So March 23rd, which is aSunday, you can see us at Flour
Power in Allison.
Doug (35:13):
Park.
I have done some cooking thingsthere myself.
Isn't it amazing?
It's a great little place.
Maria (35:19):
It's a great space, so we're going to be and Amy is
great.
We're going to be making somericotta, gnocchi and homemade
sauce and then we're back againin April, and April the 25th we
will be at the Kitchen byVangura at 6:30pm.
And that's going to be for ThePrima donna pop up night.
(35:41):
So that will be a four coursetasting menu, inspired recipes
from the Primad onna.
That is a BYO as well.
Really fun night of food anddiscussion.
And then you'll actually findus the next day, on Saturday,
(36:04):
April the 26th, in Spring Hilland North side at High Street
Studios, which is a place verynear and dear to us.
We love Dax Paris and we'regoing to be doing a homemade
pasta cook and book that dayfrom 11 to 2.
So we hope that you definitelydo join us for one of those
events, and I'm sure we're goingto be having some more things
coming up in the later springand early summer as well.
Doug (36:26):
So we're coming up on not quite two years of the book
being out and you're busier thanever.
Yes, if people want to followyou for these events, is there a
Facebook page or a website theyshould be going to?
Can you remind us what thoseare?
Maria (36:41):
Absolutely so.
My website is probably the bestcatch-all for everything, and
that is Maria M-A-R-I-A C, likecat palmer, P-A-L-M-E-Rcom, and
our Facebook and Instagramhandle is at Joe Costanzo, like
(37:02):
my dad, J-O-E-C-O-S-T-A-N-Z-O.
Prima Donna, like therestaurant P-R-I-M-A-D-O-N-N-A,
and we post things about exactlywhat we're doing, all of the
events that we have upcoming,and also you can join my
newsletter on the website too,which helps you out to do that
(37:24):
too.
Joe (37:24):
Excellent.
Also, you talk about the bookitself.
There's been interest of aBroadway play, there's been
interest about a movie.
These things are in its infancy, infancy there's potential on a
(37:54):
show, a play, in Pittsburgh onBroadway.
Maria (37:55):
So we'll just wait and see.
Yeah, and if you are one ofthose people that's listening
here today to Doug's podcast,please do reach out, because we
really think that this wouldmake an excellent screenplay,
and or script.
Doug (38:08):
I second that.
I mean you can't create thiskind of a story.
Joe (38:12):
It's so real, it is real 35 years ago, Robert De Niro was
going to play me.
I was going to ask who Now he'sgoing to play my dad.
Okay, I don't know if ChristianBale is young enough or not,
but that might be You'll take ityeah.
(38:32):
He played in Vice Dick Cheneyand my wife, if everybody can
remember, and of course you haveto be old now to remember
Charlie's Angels.
But the person that would havebeen the perfect actress to play
Donna Costanzo would beJacqueline Smith Beautiful,
(38:56):
classy, and the big thing wasthat my wife made the restaurant
.
She made it classy.
She was a classy person, anex-flight attendant model, and
she was in the rocks.
People would come in and saythat has to be Joe's wife,
because there's nobody with thatmuch class and that much beauty
(39:18):
that would come down to therocks and work.
What a compliment.
Doug (39:22):
Yeah, oh well, we've covered so much ground and I
could keep going.
Yeah, me too.
I do have just one morequestion for both of you, and
it's going to bring us back tohow we usually end our shows.
The name of the podcast is ThePittsburgh Dish.
You people seem like foodpeople.
(39:45):
What's the best dish you'veeaten this past week?
Maria (39:51):
Okay, I have mine.
So, and mine is actually from achain restaurant, it's from
Bahama Breeze, but it's a pieceof red snapper and it had mango
avocado and it had this glaze onthe side glaze on the side,
(40:22):
drawn butter, dijon mustard and,I believe, either like a smidge
of vinegar or maybe some capersto kind of create that like
tartness over a white, stickysushi type of rice.
It was really amazing, really,really good, and actually not
bad for you either.
So for me, that is, I think,the best type of food right
(40:43):
that's high in taste but alsohigh in nutritional value.
So I think that was the bestthing that I ate this week All
right, Joe.
Doug (40:53):
what was your best dish this week?
Joe (40:55):
I'm really glad you asked that question.
My younger daughter, Kelly.
She made homemade raviolis andhomemade fettuccine pasta and a
buddy of mine months ago gave mea sauce that he made with loose
sausage onions made with loosesausage onions and hot banana
(41:17):
peppers, in a red sauce, ofcourse, and my wife cooked up
the pasta and then she cooked upthe sauce.
Delicious, I had it for twodays.
Doug (41:29):
Sounds amazing.
I'm jealous.
Joe (41:32):
So, jealous.
Doug (41:34):
Well, I just want to say thank you again for your time
for sharing your story and thankyou for being on The Pittsburgh
Dish.
Maria (41:43):
Thank you.
Thanks for having us, Doug.
Joe (41:45):
Thank you, Doug.
We really appreciate yourenthusiasm for the book and for
our story, and thank you so much.
It was our pleasure coming down.
Maria (42:02):
Same here and I love to see your journey as well.
I think it's been so wonderfuljust to start out following each
other on Instagram, and I loveto see all of the wins that
you're having.
It's amazing what you have doneand what you have become.
You are Pittsburgh food royalty.
What you have done and what youhave become you are Pittsburgh
food royalty.
So thank you, Doug.
Doug (42:21):
Well, I certainly think Joe and Maria are also part of
Pittsburgh food royalty.
And up next, since we'retalking about royalty, let's
discover an Italian wine that'sfit for a king.
Hey, everybody, we're joinedonce again with our favorite
wine expert, Catherine Montestof Your Fairy Wine Mother.
Hey, Catherine, welcome back.
We're in 2025.
Can't believe it.
(42:41):
I know so, Catherine.
We just heard about the storyof the Costanzo family, the rise
and the fall of the Primad onnarestaurant in McKees Rocks, and
so many great dishes that cameout of that.
So you know hearty red sauceswith chunks of sausage and
veggies, a chicken medalliondish with white wine.
I was just wondering do any ofthose dishes conjure a wine pick
(43:05):
for you?
Heather (43:06):
Well, they sure do, because I remember going to the
Primad onna years ago and justfeeling like I was eating like
royalty and a wine that reallykind of aligns with that and
just the richness and the beautyof the food, is a Nebbiolo
Nebbiolo.
Nebbiolo is a grape grown inItaly and there's two wines that
(43:27):
are made from the NebbioloBarolo and a Barbaresco.
Barolo was considered for along time to be the wine of
kings, oh, and is considered tobe the king of wines, oh.
Doug (43:42):
Now what's the second one?
I don't think I've ever heardof the second one.
Heather (43:45):
It's a Barbaresco.
Barbaresco and Italy's fun,different than America where we
tend to name our wines after thegrapes.
The wines over there are namedfor the region, so that's why I
called out our little grapefriend the Nebbiolo.
Okay, that, and we'rePittsburghers, we're Nebby, so
kind of like.
I feel like we should adoptthis grape, I kind of love that
(44:05):
oh.
And the reason I would pick theBarolo or a Barbaresco is
because it has high acid andhigh tannins, so it's got a
really nice structure in yourmouth.
And a lot of those foods arejust so lush and delicious that
the flavors and the structure ofthe wine can hold up to all of
(44:27):
those beautiful Italian foodsthey were serving.
Doug (44:29):
Oh my gosh.
Yes, he was talking about howthey used to, you know, cut the
veal or the chicken parm, likeright there on site, pan fry it
instead of deep fry it, and solike it was rich, but it was
still crispy and juicy.
I'm sure those wines would gogreat with that.
Heather (44:44):
Absolutely, and they're red wines.
You're going to get flavors ofcherry, red plum, maybe
strawberry, fig, and then someof the more interesting notes
are going to be some of thedried herbs, so that really ties
into a lot of the foods in theItalian repertoire as well.
Even a little bit of cedar andleather, because they are aged
(45:05):
in oak barrels.
So the wines are going to pickup some of those Real
full-bodied, very flavorful, andfor these wines you can expect
to spend about $30.
And up.
Doug (45:17):
So a Barolo or a Barbaresco with your next
Italian meal.
Heather (45:23):
Yes, Catherine, thanks so much.
My pleasure, happy drinking.
Doug (45:28):
You can follow Catherine Montest on Instagram at
yourfairywinemother.
That's U- R Fairy Wine Mother.
With all of this talk ofItalian cuisine, you might have
the urge to cook up something athome yourself.
Our friend, heather of KDKA'sTalk Pittsburgh and Pittsburgh
Today Live, shares her husbandFrankie's recipe for meatballs.
(45:49):
Heather, last time we weretalking on the show, we were
talking about Frankie's meatballrecipe that you love and you
dropped a couple hints about howhe makes it.
Could we actually go throughthe full recipe?
Sure.
Catherine (46:03):
Okay, so I've only observed, and it's usually.
I'm drinking a glass of wineand watching him cook.
Doug (46:09):
Oh, that's okay.
Yeah, we'll put the recipe upon the blog for, like the full
details, we don't have to gointo exact measurements.
Catherine (46:15):
Okay, so on the blog for like the full details, we
don't have to go into exactmeasurements.
Okay, so here is.
I will tell you the two keys tothis one.
You must buy the like the oldschool meatloaf mix, so it has
to be beef, veal and pork and alittle bit of warm water.
Doug (46:31):
All right.
Catherine (46:31):
So you're adding that in.
I don't know what it does ifit's like an extra moisture, but
it makes the meatballs sotender.
You'll add in a little bit ofseasoned breadcrumbs.
Sometimes he'll add in somefresh basil as well, or parsley
and salt and pepper.
Doug (46:47):
No cheese, any cheese.
Catherine (46:48):
He doesn't put cheese in meatballs.
Every once in a while he'llsneak a little bit in, but it's
not like part of the mainstayrecipe.
If you have some extra parmesan, like shredded, and you wanted
to put it in, have at it, okay.
And then he fries those in oil,all right.
And then he sets them out likelets them kind of drip, dry onto
kind of a cookie.
Doug (47:05):
Yeah, like a wire rack, something like that.
Catherine (47:08):
Does that, and then he will put them back into the
sauce to cook to finish cooking.
It's amazing.
Doug (47:14):
Oh, that sounds so perfect .
So, good when he makes them.
Do you have any idea?
Like is he using?
Like out of the meatball mix?
How many he gets out of?
I'm wondering how big they are.
Catherine (47:23):
Anywhere from a dozen to two.
Doug (47:25):
Okay, you know, it depends A golf ball size.
Yeah, okay.
Catherine (47:28):
Yeah, I would say somewhere in that range,
probably more like a dozen and ahalf.
I would say that's pretty goodyeah.
Doug (47:33):
Now in Frankie's mind, and maybe in your mind, what is the
best pasta shape to go withmeatballs?
Catherine (47:39):
Oh, this is a big debate too.
I'm a big rigatoni fan and Ithink it's because when I would
visit with my dad's side of thefamily, anytime my grandma would
make homemade sauce, and shewas not Italian, but anytime she
would make her homemade sauce.
She always served it withrigatoni.
Doug (47:55):
Yeah.
Catherine (47:56):
And so for me it's like the only way to eat red
sauce is with Rigatoni.
Yeah.
Doug (48:02):
And rigatoni is so nice and toothsome.
I like it because you canreally get your fork on it.
Catherine (48:06):
Right, he's a big, he likes like a good spaghetti.
Doug (48:11):
Oh, this is Frankie.
Catherine (48:12):
This is Frankie.
Doug (48:13):
Yeah, I mean, I get spaghetti and meatballs too.
That just seems like old schooltradition.
Catherine (48:17):
Right, I respect it.
Yeah, the kids are.
They'll go angel hair everytime.
They love angel hair pasta.
Doug (48:23):
Oh, my least favorite, but quick to cook.
Catherine (48:25):
It's very quick to cook.
Doug (48:26):
You know what it's delicate, though, and that's
probably what they like it is.
Heather Abraham.
Thanks so much.
Of course, we're so happy to beback for a second year of shows
.
If you want to support thepodcast, you can buy us a coffee
by clicking the link near thebottom of this show's
description or tap that supportbutton at the top of our website
(48:48):
, www.
pittsburghdish.
com.
And if you want to follow moreof my personal food adventures,
you can find me @DougCooking onsocial media.
That's our show for this week.
Thanks again to our guests andcontributors and to Kevin
Solecki of Carnegie AccordionCompany for providing the music
to our show.
We'll be back again next weekwith another fresh episode.
(49:11):
Stay tuned.
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