February 19, 2024 • 28 mins
"Patients and doctors underestimate the power of plants"
Uncover the mystery of cholesterol and its powerful influence on your body as Dr. Michael Greger, M.D. the leading expert in plant-based nutrition, offers us his insights on this vital topic. Prepare to have your perceptions shifted as we break down the essential roles of cholesterol, dispel common myths, and dig into the complex relationship between 'bad' LDL and 'good' HDL cholesterol. With Dr. Greger's expertise, we navigate the often-confusing waters of dietary impacts and reveal how switching to a plant-based lifestyle can not only manage but also potentially revolutionize your cholesterol levels and overall health.
Resources from this Episode:
NutritionFacts.org
Risk Calculators
Who Should Take Statins?
How Not to Die
How Not to Diet
How Not to Age
How Not to Diet Cookbook
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to the Plant-Centered and Thriving
Podcast.
I'm your host, ashley Kitchens.
I'm a plant-based registereddietitian and virtual nutrition
mentor.
I was raised on an Angus CattleFarm, grew up with a lot of GI
issues and used the power ofplant-based eating to promote
healing.
Here you'll find inspiration,ideas and encouragement for your
(00:23):
own plant-based journey.
I'm so thrilled you're heretoday.
Let's get started.
Welcome to the showPlant-Centered Listener.
My name is Ashley and I am yourhost today, and we have a
really incredible conversationfor you today with a founding
member and fellow of theAmerican College of Lifestyle
(00:43):
Medicine, dr Michael Greger, whois a physician and
internationally recognizedspeaker on nutrition.
His science-based nonprofit,nutritionfactsorg, which is one
of my favorite websites andwhere I go for a lot of
nutrition information, offers afree online portal hosting more
than 2,000 videos and articleson a myriad of health topics.
(01:08):
Dr Greger is a sought-afterlecturer and has presented at
the Conference of World Affairsand the World Bank, testified
before Congress and was invitedas an expert witness in Oprah
Winfrey's Defense in theInfamous Meat Defamation Trial.
A graduate of CornellUniversity School of Agriculture
(01:30):
and Tufts University School ofMedicine, dr Greger is also an
acclaimed author how Not to Die,how Not to Die cookbook and how
Not to Die.
It became instant New YorkTimes bestsellers.
More than a million copies ofhow Not to Die have been sold
and that is a really fantasticbook if you haven't read it yet.
(01:52):
All proceeds Dr Greger receivesfrom the sales of his books and
speaking are donated directlyto charity.
Please join me in welcoming DrGreger and our conversation on
cholesterol.
Welcome to the show, dr Greger.
It is great to have you here.
Happy to be here.
Well, today we're going to talkabout cholesterol.
(02:14):
We have a lot of greatquestions that we've gotten from
listeners, from the podcast,from Instagram, so we're just
going to ask you some questionsthat we have in regards to
cholesterol, because there's alot of confusion around
cholesterol.
Happy to talk about anythingGood, good, well, cholesterol
often gets a bad rap, but Iwould be curious if you could
just kind of start us off on whycholesterol is actually
(02:34):
important for our body.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
Well, I mean, it does get a bad rap.
I think understandably so, andit should.
Cholesterol is a criticalcomponent of our bodies.
It plays a critical role in ourcell membranes and that's why
our body makes all thecholesterol we need.
We don't need to take in extracholesterol and in fact, when we
(02:56):
do, or when we eat things thatinterfere with our ability, our
liver's ability to removecholesterol from the body, then
we end up with two monthscholesterol in our blood, which
increases our risk of the numberone killer of men and women
part disease.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
Yep, yep, could you explain also too?
Someone had asked just what thedifference is between LDL which
is what we often hear as quotebad cholesterol and HDL.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
Yeah, so LDL is indeed bad cholesterol.
So LDL lays down cholesterolinto our artery walls, where it
then gets engulfed by our immunecells, which see it as this,
which understandably say wait, asecond, there's too much
cholesterol in these arterywalls, we're going to get rid of
it.
And so they tried to eat it upand start spewing these
inflammatory mediators and itgets all nasty and inflamed and
(03:45):
then can create a bulge into theinside of the artery and
eventually burst and kill you orcause a stroke or all sorts of
horrible things in the body.
But LDL is a proteincholesterol complex that
circulates throughout thebloodstream.
Hdl, similarly, is a proteincholesterol complex, but
actually pulls cholesterol fromvarious areas of the body and
(04:08):
tries to get rid of excesscholesterol.
So you'd think that HDL andthat was the common thought is
like the good cholesterol,that's actually decreasing the
amount of cholesterol in ourbody.
But now we know that HDL is nota causal risk factor, meaning
people with high HDL tend tolive longer and have lower risk
of cardiovascular disease, butit's not causing effect.
(04:30):
So, for example, the same reasonwhy having lots of gym shoes in
your house is associated withstentulongevity, or having a lot
of ashtrays in your house isextended with shortened
longevity.
Yeah, that's true, but it's notcausing effect.
If you increase the number ofashtrays, you're not going to
increase your risk of dyingunless you also increase smoking
, which is the actual causalrisk factor.
(04:51):
But we know LDL is a causalrisk factor and we know this
from a variety of ways, one ofwhich is called Mendelian
randomization studies, wherepeople born with lifelong low
LDL cholesterol levels,regardless of whether they eat,
live extraordinarily long,extremely low rates of
cardiovascular disease, nomatter what they do to their
body, because they have theselow LDL cholesterol.
But people born with high HDLcholesterol actually don't have
(05:14):
that protection, and so you'relike oh well, then it doesn't.
Actually it's not a causaleffect thing, so we don't worry
about our HDL cholesterolanymore.
That is something of the past.
We've since learned that mostimportant thing is make sure we
get our LDL cholesterol as lowas possible.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
Interesting.
Okay, and on the line to thatsubject, someone from Instagram
had asked is HDL, do we have tohave it as high as it needs to
be?
You know that's oftenrecommended the higher the
better.
Is that true?
Speaker 2 (05:38):
No, yeah, it doesn't matter because it does not cause
an effect.
And so before it's like, oh,we'll drink alcohol, raise your
HDL, or exercise, raise your HDL.
It doesn't matter about raisingHDL because again that's just
like changing the number of asstrays in your house but without
changing your smoking rates doesnot actually have a cause and
effect.
Relationship withcardiovascular disease,
(05:58):
apparently.
Speaker 1 (05:59):
Okay, that's great to know.
Good, so I've alluded to thisin the beginning.
It can diet, just diet alone,completely get cholesterol
within the normal limits orunder the levels that we need.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
Oh no, absolutely.
In fact, just doing threethings cutting down on saturated
fat, which is found in meat,dairy and junk, trans fats,
which is found in meat, dairyand junk, and dietary
cholesterol, found mostconcentrated in eggs, egg yolks
and meat just doing those things.
So going vegan, essentiallycutting out all dietary
(06:31):
cholesterol and meat and dairyand the saturated fat and trans
fat found we're in, can bringones down to target for primary
prevention, meaning you have notyet been diagnosed with heart
disease, and so we really wantto get your total cholesterol
under 150 or LDL cholesterolunder 70.
And so doing that, just goingvegan.
(06:52):
The average vegan has a walksaround with LDL cholesterol
about 68, but it's a bell curveand so, even though the average
is 68, about half the peopleactually have higher.
Just cutting out the animalproducts in junk.
So then, if you do findyourself on the high end of the
curve because of genetics, thenyou have to add foods to your
diet that actively pullcholesterol from the body.
(07:12):
This is the rationale behind DrDavid Jenkins portfolio study,
a very prestigious scientist,the University of Toronto that
invented the glycemic index.
So it's a vegan diet but addsfoods rich in soluble fiber,
like slimy foods, like oatmeal,okra, eggplant, adding nuts for
the phytosterols, adding soy,adding beans, adding different
(07:35):
things that pull cholesteroldown from different mechanisms,
so this kind of portfolio ofdifferent cholesterol lowering
mechanisms and so that's beenshown to most dramatically drop
LDL cholesterol.
So within two weeks can dropLDL cholesterol like 30%, which
is what you'd expect from kindof first line statin
anti-cholesteroid drug.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
Okay, all right.
Yeah, that's fantastic.
And someone was curious too,and you'd mentioned having your
total cholesterol under 150.
Do you have desirable rangesfor total cholesterol?
Is that what it typically is?
Speaker 2 (08:06):
Well, that's what we want, but only because that's
what correlates with the 70 LDL.
That's all we care about theseother problematic factors that
can be genetic, like Lp of thelay, things like that which, if
you just happen to have certaingenetics.
But in terms of generalpopulation, LDL is what we care
about Either all what we careabout or what we care about the
(08:27):
most.
And so the only reason we havethis 150 for total cholesterol
is because sometimes that's allyou get.
So sometimes that's all you getin a screening.
So if you find out yourcholesterol is 150, it probably
means your LDL is about 70.
But really we'd want to findout what your LDL is.
I mean, these days, you know, astandard lipid panel gives you
(08:47):
LDL.
It's not the actual LDL, it's acalculated LDL, basically
factoring in your HDL and yourtriglycerides.
But it's good enough.
Speaker 1 (08:55):
Yep, okay, and you again.
You kind of answered thisquestion, but someone was
curious does our body reallymake all the cholesterol we need
we really?
Can you just confirm?
Speaker 2 (09:03):
we don't need it from diet, absolutely, 100% Okay.
According to the NationalAcademy, the science is the most
prestigious scientific body inthe United States.
Speaker 1 (09:11):
All right Great.
Speaker 2 (09:13):
Now zero need for cholesterol.
Speaker 1 (09:15):
Zero need and which is primarily found in animal
products.
Almost entirely.
Speaker 2 (09:20):
Yeah, you can pretty much say entirely.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
Yeah, yeah, okay, entirely, we'll go with that.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
Does cholesterol go up as we age, only if your diet
takes a tumble.
Okay, so if you start eatingworse foods, so if, like, your
dentition goes, if you start,you know you can't chew as well
as just starting more baloney orsomething.
So this kind of soft processmeat cholesterol is so sensitive
to diet.
You know, as I said, two weeks.
So you know, typically when weput someone on a statin drug,
(09:49):
come back in six months, right,because it takes a while for the
statin drug to work, but dietworks almost immediately.
So in fact you can get kind ofthe maximum benefit within two
weeks, which is great becausethen you could keep tweaking
your diet and just keep gettingretested.
So it's like all right, for thistwo weeks I'm going to try, you
know, this kind of diet andthen see if I get down to target
(10:12):
.
If I don't, oh damn it, allright, fine, I'll cut out the
vegan donuts, okay, and then totry that for two weeks, okay,
and so then you can keeptweaking.
You can even get littlecholesterol monitors.
You can buy like at hometesting kits where you do little
, you poke your finger, get adrop of blood and it gives you a
lot of cholesterol, and thenyou can just like keep a chart
and be like, oh darn it, allright, so you have to eat
(10:34):
healthy.
Or again, maybe that geneticsyou know if you're on the other
side of the bell curve goingpartly vegan could totally get
you down to target withoutcutting out all animal products.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
Yeah, yeah, and that's true.
We see a lot of that in theseplant-based documentaries where
the interventions are only, youknow, seven to 14 days and
people are seeing drasticeffects by going from the
standard American diet to aplant-based one.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
Same thing with blood sugar, same thing with blood
pressures, and with those it'seven more critical to be very
careful, because patients anddoctors like underestimate the
power of the power of plants torapidly treat the underlying
cause, and so you could rapidlybecome over-medicated.
If you're on blood pressurelowering medications, all of a
(11:18):
sudden you go on a healthy diet.
Well, all of a sudden so you'retreating the cause your
arteries get healthy almostimmediately, or healthier almost
immediately, and so all of asudden your blood pressure falls
.
But you're on these drugs thatartificially lower your blood
pressure, and so then you coulddrop your blood pressure too low
, get dizzy, fall over, hurtyourself, crack your skull open,
and it could be serious.
Same thing with blood sugarlowering drugs.
(11:38):
All of a sudden you're treatingthe underlying cause of type 2
diabetes.
The cause of the pre-diabeteswas insulin resistance.
All of a sudden your tissuesstart using insulin more
efficiently, and so oh my Godyou champion.
So all of a sudden you have todramatically drop your the
amount of insulin you're takingwith these oral hypoglycemic or
blood sugar lowering drugs, andyou can end up in the ER sweaty
(12:01):
because your blood sugars arethrough the floor and we doctors
get calls in the middle of thenight for our patients, and why?
Because the doctors are like,well, I mean, yeah, I'll come
back in a week and we'll see howyour blood sugars are doing.
They don't understand that,literally within days, a healthy
diet can so dramaticallyimprove things and so, yeah.
(12:22):
So that's why they say dodietary changes with
undersupervision of your medicalprofessional?
This is not just likelegalistic mumbo jumbo, this is
like seriously, because you'regoing to be over-medicated so
rapidly once you treat your bodythe way it should be treated
and once your own body startshealing itself.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
Yeah, wow, I think that's amazing and yes, it just
is another testament to thepower of plants.
So amen to that Power of plants.
Now, is cholesterol needed?
This was an interestingquestion.
Is cholesterol needed for brainhealth?
Speaker 2 (12:56):
Absolutely, but again , your body makes all the
cholesterol it needs for brainhealth and in fact, having a
high cholesterol, a cholesterolof 225 or more, increases your
odds nearly 25-fold for endingup with amyloid plaques in your
brain 10 to 15 years later.
High blood cholesterol isunanimously considered a risk
(13:17):
factor for Alzheimer's disease.
It is not a matter ofscientific debate.
So if you don't want to diefrom dementia, you can die from
Alzheimer's disease.
One of the most importantthings we can do is lower
cardiovascular risk factors suchas blood pressure and blood
cholesterol.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
Yeah, yep, I know you talk about this a little bit
more on your website,nutritionfactsorg, and in your
book how Not to Die, and I'msure your other books too, but I
know that one touches on itquite a bit.
So we talked about hereditarycholesterol a little bit.
If someone is struggling withthis, on what can be done, can
diet make a difference?
Speaker 2 (13:52):
Well, so it depends.
So when most people say highcholesterol ends in my family,
bad diets run in your family,that's most common.
There is, however, a rarecondition called familial
hypercholesterolemia, wherepeople drop dead in their 20s
with heart attacks withquadruple digit cholesterol, and
so if your cholesterol is like700 or something, then you
(14:13):
should improve your diet.
But it's very hard to imaginebringing cholesterol that high
down with diet alone.
Speaker 1 (14:19):
Yep, okay, that makes sense.
Speaker 2 (14:20):
In fact, you probably have to be a multiple
cholesterol lowering medication.
Speaker 1 (14:24):
Okay, and speaking of cholesterol medications, is
there a point someone had askedwhen they get their cholesterol
results back, is there anindication where medication is
absolutely needed and they don'thave the genetic cholesterol?
Speaker 2 (14:38):
Oh yeah, yeah.
So it's based on your 10 yearcardiovascular risk.
So there's all these cool riskcalculators.
So there's the Reynolds riskscore and the ACC score, so
there's three of them online andyou can just fill in your own
data and see what your risk ofhaving basically a heart attack
over the next 10 years is.
And so I have a video aboutthis talk that gives all you
(15:00):
know, provide all the links toall the tests and some of them I
forget which ones you canactually do kind of your
lifetime risk first, not just 10year, and really give you a
sense of kind of where you are.
And based on that number,cholesterol lowering medications
, you know, if you're highenough, are absolutely indicated
.
If they're low enough, they'reabsolutely not indicated.
And then there's this kind offuzzy middle range, in which
(15:23):
case there's usually kind ofsubsequent testing you can do,
like the coronary artery calciumscore.
That can be like should we dodrugs or not?
And it depends on the.
You know the pros and cons, butregardless, if you're low, if
you're middle, lifestyle isindicated.
Lifestyle changes, such asimproving your diet, are
indicated.
It's just that.
Do we do lifestyle plus amedication?
(15:47):
Well, I mean, if you're doingeverything right.
If you're eating that, send itaround whole plant foods and
you're not even like junkytropical oils like palm kernel,
palm oil, coconut oil these raresources of saturated plant fats
your thyroid function is normal.
All these are the secondarycauses of hypercluster alemia.
You don't have abdominalobesity which can increase your
(16:09):
cholesterol regardless of whatyou put in your mouth, because
you have animal fat spillingover in your bloodstream.
What animal you?
You are the animal.
You have human fat.
It's like you are eating.
You are a cannibal Eatingreally fatty people because you
have human fat, human, animalfat flowing through your system,
because you have this deepvisceral fat, and so you know
(16:30):
weight loss may be indicated,etc.
But if you're doing everythingright and you still have high
enough risk, then absolutely therecommendation is to go on a
cholesterol lowering drug.
What are the downsides Like?
Why don't we just put in thewater supply?
The problem is thesecholesterol lowering drugs
increase our risk of type 2diabetes.
Type 2 diabetes, I think, iskilling number 6 these days,
(16:52):
whereas heart disease is killingnumber 1.
So for almost everyone, thebenefits outweigh the risks
because, yeah, you may getdiabetes, but you're not going
to have heart attack.
You'll reduce your risk ofdying from heart attack.
But hey, why not get best ofboth worlds Lower risk of heart
attack and lower risk of type 2diabetes by trying diet and
(17:13):
lifestyle alone as far as youcan push it?
Speaker 1 (17:16):
Yeah, yeah, I love that because the side effects of
diet and lifestyle are a littlebit different than the side
effects of medications.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
I know I like you get these benefits right.
I mean, instead of baggage, youget benefits that come along
reducing your risk of all theseother diseases, reduce your
cancer and all these otherthings, feel better, sleep
better and better digestion,less painful periods, and kind
of on down the list of all thebenefits of treating your body
better.
You only have one body right,literally Like can you imagine
(17:42):
Like it's not, like you have acar and you're like you can just
beat it up because you justtraded your rich trade didn't
get into a better car, right,but oh my God, if you had one
car for the entire rest of yourlife, oh my God, it would get
oil changes, it would get likeyou'd have to make sure because,
oh my God, can you imagineliving half your life without a
car in a place where you need acar?
I mean, you'd be like stuckright and so, oh my God, you
(18:05):
would just pamper this car.
Well, that's your body.
Oh my God, you need this bodyaround.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
That's a great analogy I'm going to use.
That's fantastic Because you'reright.
It really puts it intoperspective like how important
it is to take care of ourselvesnow for the long haul.
Really, oh my.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
God, yeah, yeah, yeah .
Speaker 1 (18:20):
Yeah, so cholesterol.
We touched on this just alittle bit, but can cholesterol
be too?
Speaker 2 (18:24):
low?
Theoretically, yes, but nowthat we have these really
powerful PCSK9 inhibitor drugsthat are injected, we can get
cholesterol down into singledigits and we still don't see
any downsides.
We would assume God at that low.
I mean cholesterol is made tobuild certain hormones in the
body, like steroid hormones, sexhormones.
(18:46):
So we're just like God.
We got that low.
Presumably we wouldn't be ableto manufacture.
No, didn't see any of thoseproblems, even at extraordinary
low cholesterol levels in theteens, and it just shows how
evolutionarily built we are forhaving extraordinary low
cholesterol levels.
It's possible we evolved tohave an LDL cholesterol of about
(19:07):
25.
Okay, so in these days theaverage LDL is like 125.
So no wonder heart diseasenumber one cause of death in
high income countries anddementia is killer number two.
Speaker 1 (19:18):
Yeah, wow, wow, that's pretty fascinating.
Well, so, for someone who hashigh light, light for protein A,
which you touched on just a bit, what do you recommend?
And is that a test that,because you know that obviously
doesn't come in your kind oftypical lipid panel.
Is that something that peoplecan request from their doctor as
well.
Speaker 2 (19:34):
Yeah, you could, yeah , you could.
And the reason why it's notkind of a typical standard test
is because historically wedidn't think there's anything we
do about it.
So it's like you know, I mean,what's the point of getting a
test?
It was not going to actuallychange your treatment.
You could still make anargument for testing even if
that were the case, because itcould be a motivator.
(19:56):
What this molecule is isbasically an LDL cholesterol
attached to another protein.
It kind of acts as LDLcholesterol in the body,
increasing risk of heart disease.
And if it's really high, wellthen, even if there's nothing we
can do about it, oh my god.
That just means every otherrisk factor in your life has to
be perfect, no wiggle roomwhatsoever.
So you would just go crazy tohave perfect blood pressure you
(20:18):
know 110 over 70, crazy to getyou know your LDL just
absolutely as low as possible,because you have this thing you
can't do anything about.
Now, thankfully, that's actuallynot true.
We now know that you canactually tweak it.
So a plant-based diet can lowerit and black human powder, I
think, can lower it, but we'retalking about lowering it like
(20:39):
10%.
So I mean, if you have reallyhigh levels, then lowering it
10%, you've still got toperfectly pretty high levels.
And so again, you know, anytimeyou see like a vegan with a
heart attack, you're likealright, test the APO.
You know it takes a lot to theLP, lp, little A, you know, and
some of these other kind ofnonstandard risk factors be like
.
Oh, they just happen to havethis crazy genetic
(21:00):
predisposition.
And you know, I wish we kind ofknew that in the past because
we could just help as much aspossible.
Speaker 1 (21:07):
Yeah, yeah.
Are there any other things thatyou recommend someone get
tested in addition to just astereotypical lipid panel?
That might be beneficial forthem to know in relationship to
cholesterol?
Speaker 2 (21:16):
Well, I mean.
So according to the USPSTF theUnited States Preventive Service
Task Force the kind of mostauthoritative body in terms of
preventive medicine really justneed to get your cholesterol
tested.
But you should get a retest andmake sure your cholesterol is
not creeping up.
We really want to have idealcholesterol.
Again, number one killer menand women is like.
The most important thing weneed to worry about in life, in
medical life, is really what'shappening with our LDL
(21:39):
cholesterol.
So we wanna make sure it's low,we wanna make sure it stays low
.
But beyond that, if you'reasymptomatic, there's really not
much.
You know we want colon cancerscreening at 45 right now,
circle cancer screening, thosesingles vaccine at age 50,
pneumonia vaccine at age 65,ideally we'll be getting annual
flu shots.
So there are reasons to have adoctor and if you're taking good
(22:03):
care of yourself, you'reasymptomatic.
You know, as long as your kindof cholesterol is low, there's
really not much need to go tothe doctor.
Speaker 1 (22:12):
Okay, all right, that's good to know.
Okay, dr Greger, you know wecannot talk about cholesterol
without talking about eggs,because it's a very hot topic
for some people.
Does eating eggs or does eatingsomething that's rich in
cholesterol affect ourcholesterol?
Speaker 2 (22:24):
Absolutely.
I mean and this isuncontroversial Go to the
National Academy of SciencesAgain, the most prestigious
medical body in the UnitedStates very explicit that
basically, lower cholesterol thebetter.
We should decrease our dietarycholesterol intake as much as
possible.
That's like a direct quote.
So that means we shoulddecrease our intake of meat,
(22:45):
dairy and eggs as much aspossible.
In other words, everyone shouldbe walking around vegan, chris,
I can't say that.
So if you look at the dietaryguidelines of the United States
right 2025, 2020 to 2025, thelatest dietary guidelines it
quotes National Academy ofSciences saying dietary
cholesterol intake should be aslow as possible, and so it means
(23:05):
egg intake should be as low aspossible.
That is the most singleconcentrated source of dietary
cholesterol.
No wonder in the NIHARP study,the largest forward-looking
in-depth study on diet andhealth in human history, found
that swapping even 3% of eggprotein for plant protein
(23:26):
associated with over 20%decreased risk of all-caused
mortality.
So I think it was 21% men, 24%women.
That was the worst.
Animal protein actually was egg, and presumably is because the
protein is carried along withthat dietary cholesterol.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
Yeah, but they can't tell us to eat less eggs because
people would get very upset.
Certain people would get veryupset.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
Well, the egg board would get very upset.
Speaker 1 (23:48):
Exactly, yes, yeah, do you think that's why there's
a lot of confusion?
Because there's a lot of peoplesaying, oh, it doesn't affect
your cholesterol, or it doesaffect your cholesterol.
Speaker 2 (23:57):
Yeah, so the egg board has what's called a
check-off program, meaning everycarton of eggs sold I forget
how many pennies goes to thispot, this advertising budget,
which is run by the USDepartment of Agriculture, that
is distributed for pro-eggadvertising.
So they spend tens of millionsof dollars every year to
(24:18):
convince people that eggs aregood for you and to muddy the
waters when it comes to dietarycholesterol, to run their own
studies designed specifically tohide the harms of eggs.
And so they just have thismassive budget to just.
And so that's where all theincredible edible egg campaign
came from.
The same thing with the milkmustache the dairy people have
(24:39):
it, the beef people have it.
Beef, it's what for dinner?
That's all.
That is this USDA run programto boost beef consumption, to
boost dairy consumption, toboost egg consumption.
So it's just.
And so then they can payinfluencers online to like plug
eggs.
All this, you know, all this CDstuff and just trying to
(25:00):
confuse people, like the tobaccoindustry did back, you know,
half a century ago.
But the science, I mean, theycan't argue with the science.
Science is clear, so they justhave to manipulate.
Speaker 1 (25:11):
Yes, you do.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
The literature, yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:13):
Yep, yep, there's a lot of money.
Well, I do wanna say congratson your new book, which came out
a few months ago how Not to Age, which is really exciting.
Yep, can you give just like aquick, brief overview of what
that book is about?
Speaker 2 (25:25):
Oh yeah, it's.
My aim with how Not to Age wasreally to create the most
comprehensive anti-aging bookever published, covering every
possible strategy for slowingdown the aging process for the
longest, healthiest life, basedon the best available scientific
evidence.
And the good news is we havetremendous power over our health
destiny and longevity, and thatthe vast majority of premature
(25:46):
death and disabilitiespreventable with a healthy
enough plant-based diet.
Yay.
Speaker 1 (25:51):
Now, if people wanna learn more about your books, or
even where to learn more aboutcholesterol evidenced based
information on cholesterolwhere's the best place for them
to go?
Speaker 2 (26:00):
Did you say the E word?
I sure did, I don't know if theE word is.
Speaker 1 (26:08):
Not influencer based.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
There's even the S word.
People talking about science,outrageous radicals.
I didn't realize I was beinginterviewed by some radical pod
guys there.
Yeah, so evidence if youactually wanna know and look.
If there's anything in life weshould demand evidence for it
should be well.
It's most important for thehealth and wellbeing of
ourselves and our family.
According to the Wilbur andDisease study, the largest
(26:31):
systematic analysis of riskfactors in history, the number
one cause of death in theseUnited States is the American
diet, bumping tobacco smoking tothe number two.
Cigarettes only kill about ahalf a million Americans every
year or so.
Diet kills many more, which isgood news.
This means we have the power.
Check out nutritionfactsorg,all thousands of videos, type in
eggs, type in dietarycholesterol, type in anything
(26:52):
you want, and I just review thepeer-reviewed scientific
literature and just pass alongthe information to everybody.
There are no ads, no corporatesponsorships, strictly
non-commercial, not sellinganything.
Just put it up as a publicservice, as a labor of love.
Speaker 1 (27:06):
Yeah, it is the best website out there in my opinion.
So I thank you so much forputting time and energy into it,
and thank you so much forcoming onto the show.
Your time is invaluable and Ireally appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (27:14):
Oh, you're so sweet.
Look, all the information inthe world is useless, unless
there's people like you in thetrenches actually getting it out
there, so I really appreciateit.
Thank you so much and lookingforward to coming back.
Speaker 1 (27:23):
All right, sounds good.
Thanks, Dr Greger.
Thank you so much for listeningto the Plant-Centered and
Thriving podcast today.
If you found this episodeinspiring, please share it with
a friend or post it on socialmedia and tag me so I can
personally say thank you.
Until next time, keep thriving.
Welcome to the Plant-Centered and Thriving
Podcast.
I'm your host, ashley Kitchens.
I'm a plant-based registereddietitian and virtual nutrition
mentor.
I was raised on an Angus CattleFarm, grew up with a lot of GI
issues and used the power ofplant-based eating to promote
healing.
Here you'll find inspiration,ideas and encouragement for your
(00:23):
own plant-based journey.
I'm so thrilled you're heretoday.
Let's get started.
Welcome to the showPlant-Centered Listener.
My name is Ashley and I am yourhost today, and we have a
really incredible conversationfor you today with a founding
member and fellow of theAmerican College of Lifestyle
(00:43):
Medicine, dr Michael Greger, whois a physician and
internationally recognizedspeaker on nutrition.
His science-based nonprofit,nutritionfactsorg, which is one
of my favorite websites andwhere I go for a lot of
nutrition information, offers afree online portal hosting more
than 2,000 videos and articleson a myriad of health topics.
(01:08):
Dr Greger is a sought-afterlecturer and has presented at
the Conference of World Affairsand the World Bank, testified
before Congress and was invitedas an expert witness in Oprah
Winfrey's Defense in theInfamous Meat Defamation Trial.
A graduate of CornellUniversity School of Agriculture
(01:30):
and Tufts University School ofMedicine, dr Greger is also an
acclaimed author how Not to Die,how Not to Die cookbook and how
Not to Die.
It became instant New YorkTimes bestsellers.
More than a million copies ofhow Not to Die have been sold
and that is a really fantasticbook if you haven't read it yet.
(01:52):
All proceeds Dr Greger receivesfrom the sales of his books and
speaking are donated directlyto charity.
Please join me in welcoming DrGreger and our conversation on
cholesterol.
Welcome to the show, dr Greger.
It is great to have you here.
Happy to be here.
Well, today we're going to talkabout cholesterol.
(02:14):
We have a lot of greatquestions that we've gotten from
listeners, from the podcast,from Instagram, so we're just
going to ask you some questionsthat we have in regards to
cholesterol, because there's alot of confusion around
cholesterol.
Happy to talk about anythingGood, good, well, cholesterol
often gets a bad rap, but Iwould be curious if you could
just kind of start us off on whycholesterol is actually
(02:34):
important for our body.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
Well, I mean, it does get a bad rap.
I think understandably so, andit should.
Cholesterol is a criticalcomponent of our bodies.
It plays a critical role in ourcell membranes and that's why
our body makes all thecholesterol we need.
We don't need to take in extracholesterol and in fact, when we
(02:56):
do, or when we eat things thatinterfere with our ability, our
liver's ability to removecholesterol from the body, then
we end up with two monthscholesterol in our blood, which
increases our risk of the numberone killer of men and women
part disease.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
Yep, yep, could you explain also too?
Someone had asked just what thedifference is between LDL which
is what we often hear as quotebad cholesterol and HDL.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
Yeah, so LDL is indeed bad cholesterol.
So LDL lays down cholesterolinto our artery walls, where it
then gets engulfed by our immunecells, which see it as this,
which understandably say wait, asecond, there's too much
cholesterol in these arterywalls, we're going to get rid of
it.
And so they tried to eat it upand start spewing these
inflammatory mediators and itgets all nasty and inflamed and
(03:45):
then can create a bulge into theinside of the artery and
eventually burst and kill you orcause a stroke or all sorts of
horrible things in the body.
But LDL is a proteincholesterol complex that
circulates throughout thebloodstream.
Hdl, similarly, is a proteincholesterol complex, but
actually pulls cholesterol fromvarious areas of the body and
(04:08):
tries to get rid of excesscholesterol.
So you'd think that HDL andthat was the common thought is
like the good cholesterol,that's actually decreasing the
amount of cholesterol in ourbody.
But now we know that HDL is nota causal risk factor, meaning
people with high HDL tend tolive longer and have lower risk
of cardiovascular disease, butit's not causing effect.
(04:30):
So, for example, the same reasonwhy having lots of gym shoes in
your house is associated withstentulongevity, or having a lot
of ashtrays in your house isextended with shortened
longevity.
Yeah, that's true, but it's notcausing effect.
If you increase the number ofashtrays, you're not going to
increase your risk of dyingunless you also increase smoking
, which is the actual causalrisk factor.
(04:51):
But we know LDL is a causalrisk factor and we know this
from a variety of ways, one ofwhich is called Mendelian
randomization studies, wherepeople born with lifelong low
LDL cholesterol levels,regardless of whether they eat,
live extraordinarily long,extremely low rates of
cardiovascular disease, nomatter what they do to their
body, because they have theselow LDL cholesterol.
But people born with high HDLcholesterol actually don't have
(05:14):
that protection, and so you'relike oh well, then it doesn't.
Actually it's not a causaleffect thing, so we don't worry
about our HDL cholesterolanymore.
That is something of the past.
We've since learned that mostimportant thing is make sure we
get our LDL cholesterol as lowas possible.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
Interesting.
Okay, and on the line to thatsubject, someone from Instagram
had asked is HDL, do we have tohave it as high as it needs to
be?
You know that's oftenrecommended the higher the
better.
Is that true?
Speaker 2 (05:38):
No, yeah, it doesn't matter because it does not cause
an effect.
And so before it's like, oh,we'll drink alcohol, raise your
HDL, or exercise, raise your HDL.
It doesn't matter about raisingHDL because again that's just
like changing the number of asstrays in your house but without
changing your smoking rates doesnot actually have a cause and
effect.
Relationship withcardiovascular disease,
(05:58):
apparently.
Speaker 1 (05:59):
Okay, that's great to know.
Good, so I've alluded to thisin the beginning.
It can diet, just diet alone,completely get cholesterol
within the normal limits orunder the levels that we need.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
Oh no, absolutely.
In fact, just doing threethings cutting down on saturated
fat, which is found in meat,dairy and junk, trans fats,
which is found in meat, dairyand junk, and dietary
cholesterol, found mostconcentrated in eggs, egg yolks
and meat just doing those things.
So going vegan, essentiallycutting out all dietary
(06:31):
cholesterol and meat and dairyand the saturated fat and trans
fat found we're in, can bringones down to target for primary
prevention, meaning you have notyet been diagnosed with heart
disease, and so we really wantto get your total cholesterol
under 150 or LDL cholesterolunder 70.
And so doing that, just goingvegan.
(06:52):
The average vegan has a walksaround with LDL cholesterol
about 68, but it's a bell curveand so, even though the average
is 68, about half the peopleactually have higher.
Just cutting out the animalproducts in junk.
So then, if you do findyourself on the high end of the
curve because of genetics, thenyou have to add foods to your
diet that actively pullcholesterol from the body.
(07:12):
This is the rationale behind DrDavid Jenkins portfolio study,
a very prestigious scientist,the University of Toronto that
invented the glycemic index.
So it's a vegan diet but addsfoods rich in soluble fiber,
like slimy foods, like oatmeal,okra, eggplant, adding nuts for
the phytosterols, adding soy,adding beans, adding different
(07:35):
things that pull cholesteroldown from different mechanisms,
so this kind of portfolio ofdifferent cholesterol lowering
mechanisms and so that's beenshown to most dramatically drop
LDL cholesterol.
So within two weeks can dropLDL cholesterol like 30%, which
is what you'd expect from kindof first line statin
anti-cholesteroid drug.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
Okay, all right.
Yeah, that's fantastic.
And someone was curious too,and you'd mentioned having your
total cholesterol under 150.
Do you have desirable rangesfor total cholesterol?
Is that what it typically is?
Speaker 2 (08:06):
Well, that's what we want, but only because that's
what correlates with the 70 LDL.
That's all we care about theseother problematic factors that
can be genetic, like Lp of thelay, things like that which, if
you just happen to have certaingenetics.
But in terms of generalpopulation, LDL is what we care
about Either all what we careabout or what we care about the
(08:27):
most.
And so the only reason we havethis 150 for total cholesterol
is because sometimes that's allyou get.
So sometimes that's all you getin a screening.
So if you find out yourcholesterol is 150, it probably
means your LDL is about 70.
But really we'd want to findout what your LDL is.
I mean, these days, you know, astandard lipid panel gives you
(08:47):
LDL.
It's not the actual LDL, it's acalculated LDL, basically
factoring in your HDL and yourtriglycerides.
But it's good enough.
Speaker 1 (08:55):
Yep, okay, and you again.
You kind of answered thisquestion, but someone was
curious does our body reallymake all the cholesterol we need
we really?
Can you just confirm?
Speaker 2 (09:03):
we don't need it from diet, absolutely, 100% Okay.
According to the NationalAcademy, the science is the most
prestigious scientific body inthe United States.
Speaker 1 (09:11):
All right Great.
Speaker 2 (09:13):
Now zero need for cholesterol.
Speaker 1 (09:15):
Zero need and which is primarily found in animal
products.
Almost entirely.
Speaker 2 (09:20):
Yeah, you can pretty much say entirely.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
Yeah, yeah, okay, entirely, we'll go with that.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
Does cholesterol go up as we age, only if your diet
takes a tumble.
Okay, so if you start eatingworse foods, so if, like, your
dentition goes, if you start,you know you can't chew as well
as just starting more baloney orsomething.
So this kind of soft processmeat cholesterol is so sensitive
to diet.
You know, as I said, two weeks.
So you know, typically when weput someone on a statin drug,
(09:49):
come back in six months, right,because it takes a while for the
statin drug to work, but dietworks almost immediately.
So in fact you can get kind ofthe maximum benefit within two
weeks, which is great becausethen you could keep tweaking
your diet and just keep gettingretested.
So it's like all right, for thistwo weeks I'm going to try, you
know, this kind of diet andthen see if I get down to target
(10:12):
.
If I don't, oh damn it, allright, fine, I'll cut out the
vegan donuts, okay, and then totry that for two weeks, okay,
and so then you can keeptweaking.
You can even get littlecholesterol monitors.
You can buy like at hometesting kits where you do little
, you poke your finger, get adrop of blood and it gives you a
lot of cholesterol, and thenyou can just like keep a chart
and be like, oh darn it, allright, so you have to eat
(10:34):
healthy.
Or again, maybe that geneticsyou know if you're on the other
side of the bell curve goingpartly vegan could totally get
you down to target withoutcutting out all animal products.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
Yeah, yeah, and that's true.
We see a lot of that in theseplant-based documentaries where
the interventions are only, youknow, seven to 14 days and
people are seeing drasticeffects by going from the
standard American diet to aplant-based one.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
Same thing with blood sugar, same thing with blood
pressures, and with those it'seven more critical to be very
careful, because patients anddoctors like underestimate the
power of the power of plants torapidly treat the underlying
cause, and so you could rapidlybecome over-medicated.
If you're on blood pressurelowering medications, all of a
(11:18):
sudden you go on a healthy diet.
Well, all of a sudden so you'retreating the cause your
arteries get healthy almostimmediately, or healthier almost
immediately, and so all of asudden your blood pressure falls
.
But you're on these drugs thatartificially lower your blood
pressure, and so then you coulddrop your blood pressure too low
, get dizzy, fall over, hurtyourself, crack your skull open,
and it could be serious.
Same thing with blood sugarlowering drugs.
(11:38):
All of a sudden you're treatingthe underlying cause of type 2
diabetes.
The cause of the pre-diabeteswas insulin resistance.
All of a sudden your tissuesstart using insulin more
efficiently, and so oh my Godyou champion.
So all of a sudden you have todramatically drop your the
amount of insulin you're takingwith these oral hypoglycemic or
blood sugar lowering drugs, andyou can end up in the ER sweaty
(12:01):
because your blood sugars arethrough the floor and we doctors
get calls in the middle of thenight for our patients, and why?
Because the doctors are like,well, I mean, yeah, I'll come
back in a week and we'll see howyour blood sugars are doing.
They don't understand that,literally within days, a healthy
diet can so dramaticallyimprove things and so, yeah.
(12:22):
So that's why they say dodietary changes with
undersupervision of your medicalprofessional?
This is not just likelegalistic mumbo jumbo, this is
like seriously, because you'regoing to be over-medicated so
rapidly once you treat your bodythe way it should be treated
and once your own body startshealing itself.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
Yeah, wow, I think that's amazing and yes, it just
is another testament to thepower of plants.
So amen to that Power of plants.
Now, is cholesterol needed?
This was an interestingquestion.
Is cholesterol needed for brainhealth?
Speaker 2 (12:56):
Absolutely, but again , your body makes all the
cholesterol it needs for brainhealth and in fact, having a
high cholesterol, a cholesterolof 225 or more, increases your
odds nearly 25-fold for endingup with amyloid plaques in your
brain 10 to 15 years later.
High blood cholesterol isunanimously considered a risk
(13:17):
factor for Alzheimer's disease.
It is not a matter ofscientific debate.
So if you don't want to diefrom dementia, you can die from
Alzheimer's disease.
One of the most importantthings we can do is lower
cardiovascular risk factors suchas blood pressure and blood
cholesterol.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
Yeah, yep, I know you talk about this a little bit
more on your website,nutritionfactsorg, and in your
book how Not to Die, and I'msure your other books too, but I
know that one touches on itquite a bit.
So we talked about hereditarycholesterol a little bit.
If someone is struggling withthis, on what can be done, can
diet make a difference?
Speaker 2 (13:52):
Well, so it depends.
So when most people say highcholesterol ends in my family,
bad diets run in your family,that's most common.
There is, however, a rarecondition called familial
hypercholesterolemia, wherepeople drop dead in their 20s
with heart attacks withquadruple digit cholesterol, and
so if your cholesterol is like700 or something, then you
(14:13):
should improve your diet.
But it's very hard to imaginebringing cholesterol that high
down with diet alone.
Speaker 1 (14:19):
Yep, okay, that makes sense.
Speaker 2 (14:20):
In fact, you probably have to be a multiple
cholesterol lowering medication.
Speaker 1 (14:24):
Okay, and speaking of cholesterol medications, is
there a point someone had askedwhen they get their cholesterol
results back, is there anindication where medication is
absolutely needed and they don'thave the genetic cholesterol?
Speaker 2 (14:38):
Oh yeah, yeah.
So it's based on your 10 yearcardiovascular risk.
So there's all these cool riskcalculators.
So there's the Reynolds riskscore and the ACC score, so
there's three of them online andyou can just fill in your own
data and see what your risk ofhaving basically a heart attack
over the next 10 years is.
And so I have a video aboutthis talk that gives all you
(15:00):
know, provide all the links toall the tests and some of them I
forget which ones you canactually do kind of your
lifetime risk first, not just 10year, and really give you a
sense of kind of where you are.
And based on that number,cholesterol lowering medications
, you know, if you're highenough, are absolutely indicated
.
If they're low enough, they'reabsolutely not indicated.
And then there's this kind offuzzy middle range, in which
(15:23):
case there's usually kind ofsubsequent testing you can do,
like the coronary artery calciumscore.
That can be like should we dodrugs or not?
And it depends on the.
You know the pros and cons, butregardless, if you're low, if
you're middle, lifestyle isindicated.
Lifestyle changes, such asimproving your diet, are
indicated.
It's just that.
Do we do lifestyle plus amedication?
(15:47):
Well, I mean, if you're doingeverything right.
If you're eating that, send itaround whole plant foods and
you're not even like junkytropical oils like palm kernel,
palm oil, coconut oil these raresources of saturated plant fats
your thyroid function is normal.
All these are the secondarycauses of hypercluster alemia.
You don't have abdominalobesity which can increase your
(16:09):
cholesterol regardless of whatyou put in your mouth, because
you have animal fat spillingover in your bloodstream.
What animal you?
You are the animal.
You have human fat.
It's like you are eating.
You are a cannibal Eatingreally fatty people because you
have human fat, human, animalfat flowing through your system,
because you have this deepvisceral fat, and so you know
(16:30):
weight loss may be indicated,etc.
But if you're doing everythingright and you still have high
enough risk, then absolutely therecommendation is to go on a
cholesterol lowering drug.
What are the downsides Like?
Why don't we just put in thewater supply?
The problem is thesecholesterol lowering drugs
increase our risk of type 2diabetes.
Type 2 diabetes, I think, iskilling number 6 these days,
(16:52):
whereas heart disease is killingnumber 1.
So for almost everyone, thebenefits outweigh the risks
because, yeah, you may getdiabetes, but you're not going
to have heart attack.
You'll reduce your risk ofdying from heart attack.
But hey, why not get best ofboth worlds Lower risk of heart
attack and lower risk of type 2diabetes by trying diet and
(17:13):
lifestyle alone as far as youcan push it?
Speaker 1 (17:16):
Yeah, yeah, I love that because the side effects of
diet and lifestyle are a littlebit different than the side
effects of medications.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
I know I like you get these benefits right.
I mean, instead of baggage, youget benefits that come along
reducing your risk of all theseother diseases, reduce your
cancer and all these otherthings, feel better, sleep
better and better digestion,less painful periods, and kind
of on down the list of all thebenefits of treating your body
better.
You only have one body right,literally Like can you imagine
(17:42):
Like it's not, like you have acar and you're like you can just
beat it up because you justtraded your rich trade didn't
get into a better car, right,but oh my God, if you had one
car for the entire rest of yourlife, oh my God, it would get
oil changes, it would get likeyou'd have to make sure because,
oh my God, can you imagineliving half your life without a
car in a place where you need acar?
I mean, you'd be like stuckright and so, oh my God, you
(18:05):
would just pamper this car.
Well, that's your body.
Oh my God, you need this bodyaround.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
That's a great analogy I'm going to use.
That's fantastic Because you'reright.
It really puts it intoperspective like how important
it is to take care of ourselvesnow for the long haul.
Really, oh my.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
God, yeah, yeah, yeah .
Speaker 1 (18:20):
Yeah, so cholesterol.
We touched on this just alittle bit, but can cholesterol
be too?
Speaker 2 (18:24):
low?
Theoretically, yes, but nowthat we have these really
powerful PCSK9 inhibitor drugsthat are injected, we can get
cholesterol down into singledigits and we still don't see
any downsides.
We would assume God at that low.
I mean cholesterol is made tobuild certain hormones in the
body, like steroid hormones, sexhormones.
(18:46):
So we're just like God.
We got that low.
Presumably we wouldn't be ableto manufacture.
No, didn't see any of thoseproblems, even at extraordinary
low cholesterol levels in theteens, and it just shows how
evolutionarily built we are forhaving extraordinary low
cholesterol levels.
It's possible we evolved tohave an LDL cholesterol of about
(19:07):
25.
Okay, so in these days theaverage LDL is like 125.
So no wonder heart diseasenumber one cause of death in
high income countries anddementia is killer number two.
Speaker 1 (19:18):
Yeah, wow, wow, that's pretty fascinating.
Well, so, for someone who hashigh light, light for protein A,
which you touched on just a bit, what do you recommend?
And is that a test that,because you know that obviously
doesn't come in your kind oftypical lipid panel.
Is that something that peoplecan request from their doctor as
well.
Speaker 2 (19:34):
Yeah, you could, yeah , you could.
And the reason why it's notkind of a typical standard test
is because historically wedidn't think there's anything we
do about it.
So it's like you know, I mean,what's the point of getting a
test?
It was not going to actuallychange your treatment.
You could still make anargument for testing even if
that were the case, because itcould be a motivator.
(19:56):
What this molecule is isbasically an LDL cholesterol
attached to another protein.
It kind of acts as LDLcholesterol in the body,
increasing risk of heart disease.
And if it's really high, wellthen, even if there's nothing we
can do about it, oh my god.
That just means every otherrisk factor in your life has to
be perfect, no wiggle roomwhatsoever.
So you would just go crazy tohave perfect blood pressure you
(20:18):
know 110 over 70, crazy to getyou know your LDL just
absolutely as low as possible,because you have this thing you
can't do anything about.
Now, thankfully, that's actuallynot true.
We now know that you canactually tweak it.
So a plant-based diet can lowerit and black human powder, I
think, can lower it, but we'retalking about lowering it like
(20:39):
10%.
So I mean, if you have reallyhigh levels, then lowering it
10%, you've still got toperfectly pretty high levels.
And so again, you know, anytimeyou see like a vegan with a
heart attack, you're likealright, test the APO.
You know it takes a lot to theLP, lp, little A, you know, and
some of these other kind ofnonstandard risk factors be like
.
Oh, they just happen to havethis crazy genetic
(21:00):
predisposition.
And you know, I wish we kind ofknew that in the past because
we could just help as much aspossible.
Speaker 1 (21:07):
Yeah, yeah.
Are there any other things thatyou recommend someone get
tested in addition to just astereotypical lipid panel?
That might be beneficial forthem to know in relationship to
cholesterol?
Speaker 2 (21:16):
Well, I mean.
So according to the USPSTF theUnited States Preventive Service
Task Force the kind of mostauthoritative body in terms of
preventive medicine really justneed to get your cholesterol
tested.
But you should get a retest andmake sure your cholesterol is
not creeping up.
We really want to have idealcholesterol.
Again, number one killer menand women is like.
The most important thing weneed to worry about in life, in
medical life, is really what'shappening with our LDL
(21:39):
cholesterol.
So we wanna make sure it's low,we wanna make sure it stays low
.
But beyond that, if you'reasymptomatic, there's really not
much.
You know we want colon cancerscreening at 45 right now,
circle cancer screening, thosesingles vaccine at age 50,
pneumonia vaccine at age 65,ideally we'll be getting annual
flu shots.
So there are reasons to have adoctor and if you're taking good
(22:03):
care of yourself, you'reasymptomatic.
You know, as long as your kindof cholesterol is low, there's
really not much need to go tothe doctor.
Speaker 1 (22:12):
Okay, all right, that's good to know.
Okay, dr Greger, you know wecannot talk about cholesterol
without talking about eggs,because it's a very hot topic
for some people.
Does eating eggs or does eatingsomething that's rich in
cholesterol affect ourcholesterol?
Speaker 2 (22:24):
Absolutely.
I mean and this isuncontroversial Go to the
National Academy of SciencesAgain, the most prestigious
medical body in the UnitedStates very explicit that
basically, lower cholesterol thebetter.
We should decrease our dietarycholesterol intake as much as
possible.
That's like a direct quote.
So that means we shoulddecrease our intake of meat,
(22:45):
dairy and eggs as much aspossible.
In other words, everyone shouldbe walking around vegan, chris,
I can't say that.
So if you look at the dietaryguidelines of the United States
right 2025, 2020 to 2025, thelatest dietary guidelines it
quotes National Academy ofSciences saying dietary
cholesterol intake should be aslow as possible, and so it means
(23:05):
egg intake should be as low aspossible.
That is the most singleconcentrated source of dietary
cholesterol.
No wonder in the NIHARP study,the largest forward-looking
in-depth study on diet andhealth in human history, found
that swapping even 3% of eggprotein for plant protein
(23:26):
associated with over 20%decreased risk of all-caused
mortality.
So I think it was 21% men, 24%women.
That was the worst.
Animal protein actually was egg, and presumably is because the
protein is carried along withthat dietary cholesterol.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
Yeah, but they can't tell us to eat less eggs because
people would get very upset.
Certain people would get veryupset.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
Well, the egg board would get very upset.
Speaker 1 (23:48):
Exactly, yes, yeah, do you think that's why there's
a lot of confusion?
Because there's a lot of peoplesaying, oh, it doesn't affect
your cholesterol, or it doesaffect your cholesterol.
Speaker 2 (23:57):
Yeah, so the egg board has what's called a
check-off program, meaning everycarton of eggs sold I forget
how many pennies goes to thispot, this advertising budget,
which is run by the USDepartment of Agriculture, that
is distributed for pro-eggadvertising.
So they spend tens of millionsof dollars every year to
(24:18):
convince people that eggs aregood for you and to muddy the
waters when it comes to dietarycholesterol, to run their own
studies designed specifically tohide the harms of eggs.
And so they just have thismassive budget to just.
And so that's where all theincredible edible egg campaign
came from.
The same thing with the milkmustache the dairy people have
(24:39):
it, the beef people have it.
Beef, it's what for dinner?
That's all.
That is this USDA run programto boost beef consumption, to
boost dairy consumption, toboost egg consumption.
So it's just.
And so then they can payinfluencers online to like plug
eggs.
All this, you know, all this CDstuff and just trying to
(25:00):
confuse people, like the tobaccoindustry did back, you know,
half a century ago.
But the science, I mean, theycan't argue with the science.
Science is clear, so they justhave to manipulate.
Speaker 1 (25:11):
Yes, you do.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
The literature, yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:13):
Yep, yep, there's a lot of money.
Well, I do wanna say congratson your new book, which came out
a few months ago how Not to Age, which is really exciting.
Yep, can you give just like aquick, brief overview of what
that book is about?
Speaker 2 (25:25):
Oh yeah, it's.
My aim with how Not to Age wasreally to create the most
comprehensive anti-aging bookever published, covering every
possible strategy for slowingdown the aging process for the
longest, healthiest life, basedon the best available scientific
evidence.
And the good news is we havetremendous power over our health
destiny and longevity, and thatthe vast majority of premature
(25:46):
death and disabilitiespreventable with a healthy
enough plant-based diet.
Yay.
Speaker 1 (25:51):
Now, if people wanna learn more about your books, or
even where to learn more aboutcholesterol evidenced based
information on cholesterolwhere's the best place for them
to go?
Speaker 2 (26:00):
Did you say the E word?
I sure did, I don't know if theE word is.
Speaker 1 (26:08):
Not influencer based.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
There's even the S word.
People talking about science,outrageous radicals.
I didn't realize I was beinginterviewed by some radical pod
guys there.
Yeah, so evidence if youactually wanna know and look.
If there's anything in life weshould demand evidence for it
should be well.
It's most important for thehealth and wellbeing of
ourselves and our family.
According to the Wilbur andDisease study, the largest
(26:31):
systematic analysis of riskfactors in history, the number
one cause of death in theseUnited States is the American
diet, bumping tobacco smoking tothe number two.
Cigarettes only kill about ahalf a million Americans every
year or so.
Diet kills many more, which isgood news.
This means we have the power.
Check out nutritionfactsorg,all thousands of videos, type in
eggs, type in dietarycholesterol, type in anything
(26:52):
you want, and I just review thepeer-reviewed scientific
literature and just pass alongthe information to everybody.
There are no ads, no corporatesponsorships, strictly
non-commercial, not sellinganything.
Just put it up as a publicservice, as a labor of love.
Speaker 1 (27:06):
Yeah, it is the best website out there in my opinion.
So I thank you so much forputting time and energy into it,
and thank you so much forcoming onto the show.
Your time is invaluable and Ireally appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (27:14):
Oh, you're so sweet.
Look, all the information inthe world is useless, unless
there's people like you in thetrenches actually getting it out
there, so I really appreciateit.
Thank you so much and lookingforward to coming back.
Speaker 1 (27:23):
All right, sounds good.
Thanks, Dr Greger.
Thank you so much for listeningto the Plant-Centered and
Thriving podcast today.
If you found this episodeinspiring, please share it with
a friend or post it on socialmedia and tag me so I can
personally say thank you.
Until next time, keep thriving.
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