April 17, 2025 • 28 mins
#70 - Join us for an amazing conversation with environmental activist and Rainforest Information Centre founder John Seed. In this illuminating episode, John shares his journey of awakening to the sentience of the natural world and how addressing inner disconnection from Nature is essential for true ecological healing.
In this episode you'll discover:
• How spirituality and ecology are fundamentally interconnected
• A beautiful guided practice that helps us experience our ancient reciprocal relationship with plants
• The remarkable success of his experience in rainforest protection campaigns and understanding the ecological self
• How community-based ecological therapies can help heal our relationship with the living Earth and dispel the illusion of separation
John also shares profound wisdom on the value of connecting with the story of the emerging universe and practical tools to experience our interdependence with the plant world.
John Seed is an environmental activist and founder of the Rainforest Information Centre (RIC). He is an accomplished bard, songwriter, filmmaker, and co-author of "Thinking Like a Mountain - Towards a Council of All Beings." In 1995 he received the Order of Australia Medal (OAM) in 1995, for services to conservation. He has spearheaded RIC's endangered species, climate change, Asian elephants, Ecuador and Cambodia campaigns. John has written and lectured extensively on deep ecology, and he’s conducted Deep Ecology workshops around the world for 35 years to help people strengthen the felt sense of our connection with the living Earth.
You can find John at: https://www.rainforestinformationcentre.org/
Breathing with Trees meditation: https://rainforestinfo.org.au/deep-eco/breathing.htm
IG: https://www.instagram.com/johnseed_deepecology/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/johnseed.deepecology/
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/rainforestinfo
Books & Articles: https://www.rainforestinformationcentre.org/john_seed_articles_essays
For more info visit Sara's website at: https://www.multidimensionalnature.com/
IG: https://www.instagram.com/multidimensional.nature/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/saraartemisia.ms/
Facebook group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/plantspiritherbalism
Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@saraartemisia
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@multidimensional.nature
Pinterest: https://www.pinterest.com/multidimensionalnature/
Learn how to communicate with plant consciousness in the free workshop on How to Learn Plant Language: https://www.learnplantlanguage.com/
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Sara Artemisia (00:04):
Welcome to the Plant Spirit Podcast with Sara
Artemisia on connecting withplant consciousness and the
healing wisdom of Nature. Tolearn how to communicate
directly with plantconsciousness, you can check out
the free workshop atwww.learnplantlanguage.com.
(00:27):
And for Financial Coaching,Business Development Coaching,
Flower Essence Therapy, orOne-to-one Mentorship Sessions,
visitwww.multidimensionalnature.com.
I'm your host, Sara Artemisia,and I am deeply honored to
(00:48):
welcome our next guest to theshow today. John Seed is an
environmental activist andfounder of the Rainforest
Information Centre. He's anaccomplished bard, songwriter,
film-maker and co-author of"Thinking Like a Mountain -
Towards a Council of AllBeings". He has written and
(01:10):
lectured extensively on deepecology, and he's conducted Deep
Ecology workshops around theworld for 35 years to help
people strengthen the felt senseof our connection with the
living Earth. So John, thank youso much for being here. Such an
honor to have you here with ustoday.
John Seed (01:28):
Thanks so much, Sara.
Sara Artemisia (01:31):
I love how your approach is rooted in such a
deep sense of connection andrelationship with the Earth, and
I'd love to hear to start today.
How do you really feel thatspirituality and ecology are one
and the same?
John Seed (01:49):
Well, it seems, it seems to me, that everything
grew out of the Earth. I mean,the Earth grew out of the
universe, of course, but for themoment, let's just start with
the Earth. And one of the peopleI admire, whose work I admire is
(02:13):
the cosmologist Brian Swimme andhe once said the Earth used to
be nothing but lava, and now itsings opera. And so it's just
this sense that I have, thateverything grew out of that
lava, that nothing has beenadded since then, nothing came
(02:33):
from the outside in order toturn the lava into all of all of
this and that that includes, ofcourse, spirituality. So to deep
ecology, human beings are notthe crown of creation or or the
top of any pyramid, but we'rejust one tiny leaf on the tree
(02:55):
of life, and everything about uscomes from that tree that there
is nothing about us that doesn'tcome from the Earth. And so
that, of course, includesspirituality.
Sara Artemisia (03:11):
Amazing and so succinct. I love that. And I
also, just before we moveforward, want to just say to
everyone listening that a littlebit later, John will be sharing
a practice of connection with aplant. And so if you have a
moment right now to either pauseand go sit with a plant or just
find one in your space, thatwould be really helpful. And if
(03:34):
not, of course, you can alwayscome back to the exercise later.
So I just wanted to share thathere. And so I know that you've
been working for decades withprotecting rainforests, and I
was curious if you could sharesome stories that you've had
about that.
John Seed (03:52):
Well, perhaps I'll start with the
story that I was telling you alittle bit off before we hit
record, and that was how I gotinto this in the first place,
where, in August of 1979 I wentdown to the local hippie market
where, you know, people hadtheir crafts and food for sale,
(04:13):
and one of the neighbors got upon the stage and asked for help,
because he said the ForestryCommission was coming in the
next day to log the rainforestat the end of Terania Creek
Road. And I'd never been to theend of Terania Creek Road. I
didn't know what a rainforestwas. I didn't know if there were
rainforests in Australia, but Iwas into helping the neighbors,
(04:36):
and so innocently enough, Ishowed up the next day and was
stunned to discover thismagnificence that I had never
imagined, and it appeared to besentient, and it appeared to
know me, and it it this time, itwas not my neighbor, but the
(04:57):
forest itself that was askingfor my help. And I was deeply
disturbed because my at thattime, I was living in a
community of Buddhists,organizing meditation retreats
and growing our own food,delivering our own babies, etc,
and there was nothing about mysort of cognitive framework that
(05:18):
had prepared me for this. Ididn't really believe in things
like this sounded too woo, woo,but it was undeniable, and it
was so warm and so authenticthat soon enough, I just
surrendered and ran away withthat circus and have been, you
know, hanging on, you know,wherever it wherever it led me,
(05:43):
I've been following ever since.
Sara Artemisia (05:50):
And how did you specifically find your way into
deep ecology? Was that just anatural evolution from that
first experience with therainforest?
John Seed (05:58):
In some ways it was, but the way it actually happened
was that those first actions inAustralia were incredibly
successful. It's hard to evenimagine today that such a thing
was possible, but our passionwas easily able to communicate
itself, because at that time,this turned out to have been the
(06:19):
first such direct action indefense of forests in the world,
as far as we know, and thatmeant that the society had yet
to develop any antibodiesagainst the kind of theatrical
expressions of people climbinginto the trees and chaining
themselves to the machinery sothat it was easy to be the first
(06:42):
item on the news night afternight, and clearly the time was
right. Because at the beginning,nobody knew that there was
rainforest in Australia, really.
But less than two years later,an opinion poll found that more
than 70% of the people of ourstate of New South Wales wanted
an end to rainforest logging,and the government of the day
(07:05):
legislated with a string ofnational parks that stretched
more than 500 miles from Northto South. And the following
year, we went from oursubtropical rainforests down to
the Island State of Tasmania andthe South of Australia, and had
similar successes in protectingthe temperate rainforests there.
(07:28):
And two years later, we were upin far North Queensland, and
once again, for the tropicalrainforests, national parks and
eventual World Heritage listingrewarded our efforts. But by now
it was 1986 and we couldn't helpbut get a bit of an education,
and had learned that theserainforests are the very Womb of
(07:50):
Life, their home to more thanhalf of the species of plants
and animals in the world, andthe satellite photographs were
showing them disappearing at ahorrendous rate. Less than a
single human lifetime remainedat those rates of destruction.
So clearly, we were witnessing amass extinction such as the
world had not known for at least65 million years. And for every
(08:13):
forest that had been saved inthe first half of the 1980s, a
thousand forests had been lost,and clearly, there was no way to
save the planet, one forest at atime, that unless we could
address the underlying spiritualor psychological disease that
allows modern humans to imaginethat we can somehow profit from
(08:37):
the destruction of our own lifesupport systems. Clearly, these
actions weren't going to besufficient, and so my attention
turned to trying to understandthis, this aspect of our
dilemma, and that's what led meto deep ecology.
Sara Artemisia (08:59):
Yeah, so important and it is wild how the
system is is set up like that.
And you were sharing earlierthis quote about the need to
return to an ecological identityand ecological self, and that
seems so pivotal for the timethat we're in. I'm curious,
because you have witnessed somuch over the decades, and you
(09:20):
were talking about how the timewas really right at that time
for the work you were doing atthat time. What do you feel that
the time is right for right now?
Because there's so muchhappening globally, it really
feels to me like we're in thispivotal time of change, this
pivotal time of shiftingplanetarily. I'm curious. What
do you see happening in that?
John Seed (09:42):
Oh, well, I guess I'm as confused as everybody else at
recent events and but from whereI'm standing, what I've noticed
is that the interest in theexperiential deep ecology
workshops, which I've beenfacilitating since I met Joanna
(10:04):
Macy, a couple of years afterdiscovering the philosophy of
deep ecology. The man who coinedthe term deep ecology, the late
Arne Næss, professor ofphilosophy at Oslo University,
who said that ecological ideaswon't save us. We need
ecological identity, ecologicalself. He proposed that in order
(10:27):
to nourish our ecologicalidentity, what was needed were
community therapies to heal ourrelations with the living Earth.
And it was through meetingJoanna Macy that we began to
develop such communitytherapies, and so you'll have to
(10:51):
get me back on track.
Sara Artemisia (10:53):
I mean, to me, that sounds like it answers the
question really directly, like,what is the time right for the
time is right for communitytherapies to heal our
relationship with the livingEarth, that this really is very
key. And one of the things thatwe were talking about earlier as
well is that very experientialconnection with the Earth, how
that is so important. And so Iwas curious if you could share
(11:14):
with us some practices, or Iknow you had shared about this
practice, the breathing withtrees, is that something you'd
be open to sharing about now?
John Seed (11:22):
I would, but I'll just get that in terms of what
the time is right for now, thereason that I brought up the
experiential workshops is thatI'm doing the same workshops
that I developed with Joannamore than 30 years ago, but
(11:43):
suddenly there's a huge surge ofinterest in the in this work
that gives me a feeling thatmore and more people are ready
to be listening to this and andso I just feel like that this is
really hopeful. So the practicethat I'd like to do, I'm going
(12:05):
to do a longish introduction,and during that time, I'd like
listeners to see whether theycan either place themselves
before a living plant, anythingthat's got anything green about
it, a blade of grass is enough,or open a window so that there's
line of sight to somethinggreen, which will become clear
(12:31):
in a few minutes. So one of theprocesses that I did in the
workshop that I did in Melbournelast weekend, and that is part
of every workshop I do. At themoment, on Saturday night, we do
a process called The CosmicWalk, and this is a process that
owes its existence to the lateThomas Berry. He was a famous
(12:56):
theologian at the end of thelast century, and late in his
life, he discovered that he hadbecome a "geologian", that his
attention turned from theconception of God that he'd had
all of his life, from the OldTestament and the New Testament,
to the Earth itself as thesource of every story, including
the stories that Christianstell, and that the Christian
(13:19):
creation myth was one of 10,000such myths that humans seem to
require. It's ubiquitous askingthese questions about who are we
and where did we come from? Andall of the answers Thomas said,
are gorgeous, beautiful flowersof humanity on the Earth, but
(13:44):
they tend to be at war with eachother. It's not just that the
Christian story is at war withthe Islam story or but that the
Catholic story is at war withthe Protestant and the Sunni
story is at war with the Shiaand that it's too late for that
now, and we need to find a storythat will unite us rather than
(14:07):
separate us. And he proposedthat the story, revealed by
empiricism, revealed byobservation, revealed by our
telescopes and microscopes,correctly told, was the creation
myth of the future was thecreation myth that would unite
all of us. And so the cosmicwalk was a process created by
(14:29):
one of his students, sisterMiriam Therese MacGillis, is a
Catholic nun from Genesis-Farmin New Jersey. And the cosmic
walk we have a ball of hemp, 50meters long, representing the
13.7 billion year epic story ofthe universe. And there are 23
(14:51):
beads appropriately placed onthis 50 meters, each of which
represents an important story inthe emerging universe and in the
center there's a beadrepresenting the amazing fact
that anything exists at all,that had the fundamental forces
(15:11):
of physics been one millionth ofa percent different than what
they are, nothing would exist.
But here we are, and so we placea tea light candle next to each
of these beads. The hemp is laidout in a spiral, and while
singing a chant called Child ofthe Universe, I am as old as the
Universe. I've been here before,and I'll be here again. I am a
(15:35):
child of the Universe, part ofall women, part of all men, the
youngest person in the grouplights the candle in the center.
We tell the story of existence,and then she or he lights a
taper, and while we chant, walksaround, lighting candle after
candle as the story of theemerging universe is told. And
(15:57):
we get about two thirds of theway around, and we light a
candle to represent thesupernova explosion and the
debris of which created our sunand all of the planets of our
solar system and so on. So thethe process that I'm going to
introduce in a moment startsabout between two and 3 billion
(16:20):
years ago, when our ancestorswere single celled bacteria
floating in the oceans, and wehad become incredibly successful
and proliferated to the extentthat we'd used up all of the
freely available nutrients inthe Ocean, and there was a
crisis of starvation, and thatcrisis was solved by the
(16:42):
emergence of a new molecule,chlorophyll, which allowed these
bacteria to capture photons oflight from the sun and use the
energy of that to be able toextract carbon from CO2 to
continue to build our bodies.
And this was a tremendousinnovation that solved the
(17:04):
problem of how to how tocontinue at that point, but it
had the side effect of everytime one of these transactions
took place, a molecule of oxygenwas released, and oxygen was a
toxic poison to the anaerobiclife of that time, for nearly a
billion years that oxygencouldn't accumulate, because
(17:25):
there was so much iron dissolvedin the ocean coming up from
lava, that the moment someoxygen was released, it oxidized
some iron, and a molecule ofrust fell to the ocean floor,
and all of the iron that we minetoday to build our cities and
our motor cars and ourairplanes, it's now understood
(17:46):
that that's how it accumulated.
That's how all of that, thosegreat, you know, blocks of iron
that we that we mine, wereaccumulated one molecule at a
time by these ancestors,breaking CO2 up and releasing
oxygen. But eventually, about 2billion years ago, all of the
(18:08):
iron had been swept out of theoceans, and oxygen began to
accumulate, threatening all oflife. And this problem was
solved by another of thebacteria of that time which
created the new molecule, whichwas the heme molecule, the
ancestor of the hemoglobinprotein that transport oxygen
through all animal bodies,including our own. And this
(18:32):
ancient cycle of partnershipbetween the producers of
chlorophyll and the producers ofheme has continued since that
time, and we reenact that inevery breath we take. So the
particular, the particularprocess that I'm going to, you
know, invite people to sharewith us at the moment is I'm
(18:53):
going to be looking out mywindow at some green trees
outside the window, and I invitepeople to look at a plant and
see what happens when we addconsciousness to this ancient
cycle of partnership, because Ibelieve that this is one of the
processes that helps us tounderstand and embody our
(19:15):
ecological identity. Usually,we're trapped in our social
identity, our nationality or ourreligion or these social
constructs, but this issomething that takes us back
billions and billions of yearsinto our history, and when we
add consciousness to it, let'ssee what happens. So looking out
(19:35):
at this green thing, the bladeof grass or a tree
with we're just going to do thisfor a few minutes with each in
breath.
Remember the gift that's beingreceived, the oxygen that we
need in order to be alive, isbeing produced by these green
things, and so we allowourselves to feel gratitude for
(19:59):
this gift. And with each outbreath, remembering that those
green things mutually dependupon our exhalations as well.
And so we can feel, instead ofjust being ashamed of the CO2
that we're producing, we canfeel a sense of abundance and
generosity, because in thecorrect quantities, the CO2 is
(20:23):
just as essential for the lifeof these plants as the oxygen is
for our life. And so eachinhalation and exhalation
becomes an exchange of gifts,and we connect with the world in
this way. So it's like a breathmeditation, but it's actually
(20:44):
about the exchange of gassesitself. So, just exchanging
gasses with the green world fora couple of minutes and I'll
shut up.
(22:01):
Thank you. Of course, I inviteyou to continue this for a bit
longer after the podcast.
Sara Artemisia (22:09):
Well, thanks so much, John, so so wonderful. And
I mean really, in what youshared there about how the
inhalation and the exhalation,it becomes this exchange of
gifts. How, you know, so oftenthere can be this experience, in
my perception of the humanexperience, in connecting with
plants, where it's more of likethrough the eyes, you know, as
(22:30):
if it's like, oh, they're overthere and I'm over here, my
human experience and how thebreath transcends that directly.
It's just right into the body oflike we are in relationship
through the very activebreathing. And how simple and
profound that is. So yeah, thankyou for sharing that so great
and and also on that note, justrecognizing the pivotal times
(22:54):
that we're in. Why is itimportant for deep ecology to
move more into the mainstream?
John Seed (23:01):
Well, deep ecology, the experience of deep ecology,
which Joanna Macy calls the workthat reconnects, reconnects us
both to the living Earth, to thenatural world, to the rest of
Nature. It dispels the illusionof separation, and that means
(23:22):
that we feel ever moremotivation to engage with
protecting wild Nature, but italso reconnects us only nest
calls for community therapies.
This isn't something that's doneindividually. It's done in a
circle with other people. Andwhat we find is that when we get
(23:43):
together with the circle ofpeople, and we have the shared
intention to heal our relationswith the more than human world,
a tremendous bonding developsbetween the people who do that
together. And I heard of areally interesting study a
couple of weeks ago, which Iloved, that someone posed a
(24:08):
difficult problem to a largenumber of people as individuals,
and about 10% of the people wereable to solve that problem, but
the same problem given to asmall group of individuals, 80%
of the groups solved the problembecause we're social mammals,
(24:29):
and we evolved to work togetherto solve the problems that we
face, that no matter how fit anIndividual is, unless they live
in a community that's fit. No noamount of personal fitness will
allow us to survive and to andto move forward, and so finding
(24:50):
a circle of people with whom weshare that intention to, heal
our relations with the Earth andto protect the Earth, it's just
a tremendously powerful forcethat I think is going to move us
forward.
Sara Artemisia (25:09):
Yeah, I completely agree with that. I'm
curious, for folks who may belistening right now who feel a
bit isolated, maybe they'reliving in a community where they
feel like they don't have thatkind of resonance. Do you have
any suggestions for how folkscould connect with others to
really deepen in this way?
John Seed (25:26):
Well, I mean, the first thing is just to look up
the work that reconnects anddeep ecology, a Nature
connection, rewilding, wordslike this, and see, you know
with your address. And see youknow, like, who, what's around?
Because there are thousands ofgroups around the world that are
(25:47):
already offering this. But theother thing is that what we've
found is that, because in theseworkshops, it's the intention
that does all of the heavylifting, that once a group of
people share that intentiontogether. You don't need like a
highly skilled facilitator oranything like that. And when
(26:07):
Joanna Macy and I joinedProfessor Arne Næss and Pat
Fleming and we wrote our bookthinking like a mountain towards
the Council of all beings in1988 and a PDF of that. There'll
be a link in the show notes sothat people can can can find
that book. We wrote it like arecipe book, where, just like a
(26:29):
recipe, you don't have to go tocooking school or anything like
that. You can just look at therecipe and follow the recipe and
and that's it. So many, manypeople have just, you know, so
basically, all that you need todo, if there's nothing else in
your neighborhood, is to put outa call for like minded people
(26:50):
and get together with three orfour people and then follow the
recipe, because it works and andthat becomes the focal point
that will attract more people,and it's these, it's these small
circles growing in number that Ithink, is where the hope lies.
Sara Artemisia (27:11):
Wonderful. Thank you so much for sharing that and
tell us, how can people find outmore about you and your work?
John Seed (27:18):
Oh, well, if you put you know, John Seed Deep Ecology
into a search engine, all mysocial media and other you know,
websites and things like thatwill be there.
Sara Artemisia (27:30):
Well, thanks so much, John and yeah, so
wonderful to connect today, andjust thank you so much for your
life's work and for honoringthat call and for being so
deeply engaged in inrelationship with the Earth.
Thank you.
John Seed (27:45):
Oh, well, thank you, Sara.
Sara Artemisia (27:47):
And thanks so much for listening and joining
us today on the Plant SpiritPodcast. I hope you enjoyed it,
and please follow to subscribe,leave a review and look forward
to seeing you on the nextepisode.
Welcome to the Plant Spirit Podcast with Sara
Artemisia on connecting withplant consciousness and the
healing wisdom of Nature. Tolearn how to communicate
directly with plantconsciousness, you can check out
the free workshop atwww.learnplantlanguage.com.
(00:27):
And for Financial Coaching,Business Development Coaching,
Flower Essence Therapy, orOne-to-one Mentorship Sessions,
visitwww.multidimensionalnature.com.
I'm your host, Sara Artemisia,and I am deeply honored to
(00:48):
welcome our next guest to theshow today. John Seed is an
environmental activist andfounder of the Rainforest
Information Centre. He's anaccomplished bard, songwriter,
film-maker and co-author of"Thinking Like a Mountain -
Towards a Council of AllBeings". He has written and
(01:10):
lectured extensively on deepecology, and he's conducted Deep
Ecology workshops around theworld for 35 years to help
people strengthen the felt senseof our connection with the
living Earth. So John, thank youso much for being here. Such an
honor to have you here with ustoday.
John Seed (01:28):
Thanks so much, Sara.
Sara Artemisia (01:31):
I love how your approach is rooted in such a
deep sense of connection andrelationship with the Earth, and
I'd love to hear to start today.
How do you really feel thatspirituality and ecology are one
and the same?
John Seed (01:49):
Well, it seems, it seems to me, that everything
grew out of the Earth. I mean,the Earth grew out of the
universe, of course, but for themoment, let's just start with
the Earth. And one of the peopleI admire, whose work I admire is
(02:13):
the cosmologist Brian Swimme andhe once said the Earth used to
be nothing but lava, and now itsings opera. And so it's just
this sense that I have, thateverything grew out of that
lava, that nothing has beenadded since then, nothing came
(02:33):
from the outside in order toturn the lava into all of all of
this and that that includes, ofcourse, spirituality. So to deep
ecology, human beings are notthe crown of creation or or the
top of any pyramid, but we'rejust one tiny leaf on the tree
(02:55):
of life, and everything about uscomes from that tree that there
is nothing about us that doesn'tcome from the Earth. And so
that, of course, includesspirituality.
Sara Artemisia (03:11):
Amazing and so succinct. I love that. And I
also, just before we moveforward, want to just say to
everyone listening that a littlebit later, John will be sharing
a practice of connection with aplant. And so if you have a
moment right now to either pauseand go sit with a plant or just
find one in your space, thatwould be really helpful. And if
(03:34):
not, of course, you can alwayscome back to the exercise later.
So I just wanted to share thathere. And so I know that you've
been working for decades withprotecting rainforests, and I
was curious if you could sharesome stories that you've had
about that.
John Seed (03:52):
Well, perhaps I'll start with the
story that I was telling you alittle bit off before we hit
record, and that was how I gotinto this in the first place,
where, in August of 1979 I wentdown to the local hippie market
where, you know, people hadtheir crafts and food for sale,
(04:13):
and one of the neighbors got upon the stage and asked for help,
because he said the ForestryCommission was coming in the
next day to log the rainforestat the end of Terania Creek
Road. And I'd never been to theend of Terania Creek Road. I
didn't know what a rainforestwas. I didn't know if there were
rainforests in Australia, but Iwas into helping the neighbors,
(04:36):
and so innocently enough, Ishowed up the next day and was
stunned to discover thismagnificence that I had never
imagined, and it appeared to besentient, and it appeared to
know me, and it it this time, itwas not my neighbor, but the
(04:57):
forest itself that was askingfor my help. And I was deeply
disturbed because my at thattime, I was living in a
community of Buddhists,organizing meditation retreats
and growing our own food,delivering our own babies, etc,
and there was nothing about mysort of cognitive framework that
(05:18):
had prepared me for this. Ididn't really believe in things
like this sounded too woo, woo,but it was undeniable, and it
was so warm and so authenticthat soon enough, I just
surrendered and ran away withthat circus and have been, you
know, hanging on, you know,wherever it wherever it led me,
(05:43):
I've been following ever since.
Sara Artemisia (05:50):
And how did you specifically find your way into
deep ecology? Was that just anatural evolution from that
first experience with therainforest?
John Seed (05:58):
In some ways it was, but the way it actually happened
was that those first actions inAustralia were incredibly
successful. It's hard to evenimagine today that such a thing
was possible, but our passionwas easily able to communicate
itself, because at that time,this turned out to have been the
(06:19):
first such direct action indefense of forests in the world,
as far as we know, and thatmeant that the society had yet
to develop any antibodiesagainst the kind of theatrical
expressions of people climbinginto the trees and chaining
themselves to the machinery sothat it was easy to be the first
(06:42):
item on the news night afternight, and clearly the time was
right. Because at the beginning,nobody knew that there was
rainforest in Australia, really.
But less than two years later,an opinion poll found that more
than 70% of the people of ourstate of New South Wales wanted
an end to rainforest logging,and the government of the day
(07:05):
legislated with a string ofnational parks that stretched
more than 500 miles from Northto South. And the following
year, we went from oursubtropical rainforests down to
the Island State of Tasmania andthe South of Australia, and had
similar successes in protectingthe temperate rainforests there.
(07:28):
And two years later, we were upin far North Queensland, and
once again, for the tropicalrainforests, national parks and
eventual World Heritage listingrewarded our efforts. But by now
it was 1986 and we couldn't helpbut get a bit of an education,
and had learned that theserainforests are the very Womb of
(07:50):
Life, their home to more thanhalf of the species of plants
and animals in the world, andthe satellite photographs were
showing them disappearing at ahorrendous rate. Less than a
single human lifetime remainedat those rates of destruction.
So clearly, we were witnessing amass extinction such as the
world had not known for at least65 million years. And for every
(08:13):
forest that had been saved inthe first half of the 1980s, a
thousand forests had been lost,and clearly, there was no way to
save the planet, one forest at atime, that unless we could
address the underlying spiritualor psychological disease that
allows modern humans to imaginethat we can somehow profit from
(08:37):
the destruction of our own lifesupport systems. Clearly, these
actions weren't going to besufficient, and so my attention
turned to trying to understandthis, this aspect of our
dilemma, and that's what led meto deep ecology.
Sara Artemisia (08:59):
Yeah, so important and it is wild how the
system is is set up like that.
And you were sharing earlierthis quote about the need to
return to an ecological identityand ecological self, and that
seems so pivotal for the timethat we're in. I'm curious,
because you have witnessed somuch over the decades, and you
(09:20):
were talking about how the timewas really right at that time
for the work you were doing atthat time. What do you feel that
the time is right for right now?
Because there's so muchhappening globally, it really
feels to me like we're in thispivotal time of change, this
pivotal time of shiftingplanetarily. I'm curious. What
do you see happening in that?
John Seed (09:42):
Oh, well, I guess I'm as confused as everybody else at
recent events and but from whereI'm standing, what I've noticed
is that the interest in theexperiential deep ecology
workshops, which I've beenfacilitating since I met Joanna
(10:04):
Macy, a couple of years afterdiscovering the philosophy of
deep ecology. The man who coinedthe term deep ecology, the late
Arne Næss, professor ofphilosophy at Oslo University,
who said that ecological ideaswon't save us. We need
ecological identity, ecologicalself. He proposed that in order
(10:27):
to nourish our ecologicalidentity, what was needed were
community therapies to heal ourrelations with the living Earth.
And it was through meetingJoanna Macy that we began to
develop such communitytherapies, and so you'll have to
(10:51):
get me back on track.
Sara Artemisia (10:53):
I mean, to me, that sounds like it answers the
question really directly, like,what is the time right for the
time is right for communitytherapies to heal our
relationship with the livingEarth, that this really is very
key. And one of the things thatwe were talking about earlier as
well is that very experientialconnection with the Earth, how
that is so important. And so Iwas curious if you could share
(11:14):
with us some practices, or Iknow you had shared about this
practice, the breathing withtrees, is that something you'd
be open to sharing about now?
John Seed (11:22):
I would, but I'll just get that in terms of what
the time is right for now, thereason that I brought up the
experiential workshops is thatI'm doing the same workshops
that I developed with Joannamore than 30 years ago, but
(11:43):
suddenly there's a huge surge ofinterest in the in this work
that gives me a feeling thatmore and more people are ready
to be listening to this and andso I just feel like that this is
really hopeful. So the practicethat I'd like to do, I'm going
(12:05):
to do a longish introduction,and during that time, I'd like
listeners to see whether theycan either place themselves
before a living plant, anythingthat's got anything green about
it, a blade of grass is enough,or open a window so that there's
line of sight to somethinggreen, which will become clear
(12:31):
in a few minutes. So one of theprocesses that I did in the
workshop that I did in Melbournelast weekend, and that is part
of every workshop I do. At themoment, on Saturday night, we do
a process called The CosmicWalk, and this is a process that
owes its existence to the lateThomas Berry. He was a famous
(12:56):
theologian at the end of thelast century, and late in his
life, he discovered that he hadbecome a "geologian", that his
attention turned from theconception of God that he'd had
all of his life, from the OldTestament and the New Testament,
to the Earth itself as thesource of every story, including
the stories that Christianstell, and that the Christian
(13:19):
creation myth was one of 10,000such myths that humans seem to
require. It's ubiquitous askingthese questions about who are we
and where did we come from? Andall of the answers Thomas said,
are gorgeous, beautiful flowersof humanity on the Earth, but
(13:44):
they tend to be at war with eachother. It's not just that the
Christian story is at war withthe Islam story or but that the
Catholic story is at war withthe Protestant and the Sunni
story is at war with the Shiaand that it's too late for that
now, and we need to find a storythat will unite us rather than
(14:07):
separate us. And he proposedthat the story, revealed by
empiricism, revealed byobservation, revealed by our
telescopes and microscopes,correctly told, was the creation
myth of the future was thecreation myth that would unite
all of us. And so the cosmicwalk was a process created by
(14:29):
one of his students, sisterMiriam Therese MacGillis, is a
Catholic nun from Genesis-Farmin New Jersey. And the cosmic
walk we have a ball of hemp, 50meters long, representing the
13.7 billion year epic story ofthe universe. And there are 23
(14:51):
beads appropriately placed onthis 50 meters, each of which
represents an important story inthe emerging universe and in the
center there's a beadrepresenting the amazing fact
that anything exists at all,that had the fundamental forces
(15:11):
of physics been one millionth ofa percent different than what
they are, nothing would exist.
But here we are, and so we placea tea light candle next to each
of these beads. The hemp is laidout in a spiral, and while
singing a chant called Child ofthe Universe, I am as old as the
Universe. I've been here before,and I'll be here again. I am a
(15:35):
child of the Universe, part ofall women, part of all men, the
youngest person in the grouplights the candle in the center.
We tell the story of existence,and then she or he lights a
taper, and while we chant, walksaround, lighting candle after
candle as the story of theemerging universe is told. And
(15:57):
we get about two thirds of theway around, and we light a
candle to represent thesupernova explosion and the
debris of which created our sunand all of the planets of our
solar system and so on. So thethe process that I'm going to
introduce in a moment startsabout between two and 3 billion
(16:20):
years ago, when our ancestorswere single celled bacteria
floating in the oceans, and wehad become incredibly successful
and proliferated to the extentthat we'd used up all of the
freely available nutrients inthe Ocean, and there was a
crisis of starvation, and thatcrisis was solved by the
(16:42):
emergence of a new molecule,chlorophyll, which allowed these
bacteria to capture photons oflight from the sun and use the
energy of that to be able toextract carbon from CO2 to
continue to build our bodies.
And this was a tremendousinnovation that solved the
(17:04):
problem of how to how tocontinue at that point, but it
had the side effect of everytime one of these transactions
took place, a molecule of oxygenwas released, and oxygen was a
toxic poison to the anaerobiclife of that time, for nearly a
billion years that oxygencouldn't accumulate, because
(17:25):
there was so much iron dissolvedin the ocean coming up from
lava, that the moment someoxygen was released, it oxidized
some iron, and a molecule ofrust fell to the ocean floor,
and all of the iron that we minetoday to build our cities and
our motor cars and ourairplanes, it's now understood
(17:46):
that that's how it accumulated.
That's how all of that, thosegreat, you know, blocks of iron
that we that we mine, wereaccumulated one molecule at a
time by these ancestors,breaking CO2 up and releasing
oxygen. But eventually, about 2billion years ago, all of the
(18:08):
iron had been swept out of theoceans, and oxygen began to
accumulate, threatening all oflife. And this problem was
solved by another of thebacteria of that time which
created the new molecule, whichwas the heme molecule, the
ancestor of the hemoglobinprotein that transport oxygen
through all animal bodies,including our own. And this
(18:32):
ancient cycle of partnershipbetween the producers of
chlorophyll and the producers ofheme has continued since that
time, and we reenact that inevery breath we take. So the
particular, the particularprocess that I'm going to, you
know, invite people to sharewith us at the moment is I'm
(18:53):
going to be looking out mywindow at some green trees
outside the window, and I invitepeople to look at a plant and
see what happens when we addconsciousness to this ancient
cycle of partnership, because Ibelieve that this is one of the
processes that helps us tounderstand and embody our
(19:15):
ecological identity. Usually,we're trapped in our social
identity, our nationality or ourreligion or these social
constructs, but this issomething that takes us back
billions and billions of yearsinto our history, and when we
add consciousness to it, let'ssee what happens. So looking out
(19:35):
at this green thing, the bladeof grass or a tree
with we're just going to do thisfor a few minutes with each in
breath.
Remember the gift that's beingreceived, the oxygen that we
need in order to be alive, isbeing produced by these green
things, and so we allowourselves to feel gratitude for
(19:59):
this gift. And with each outbreath, remembering that those
green things mutually dependupon our exhalations as well.
And so we can feel, instead ofjust being ashamed of the CO2
that we're producing, we canfeel a sense of abundance and
generosity, because in thecorrect quantities, the CO2 is
(20:23):
just as essential for the lifeof these plants as the oxygen is
for our life. And so eachinhalation and exhalation
becomes an exchange of gifts,and we connect with the world in
this way. So it's like a breathmeditation, but it's actually
(20:44):
about the exchange of gassesitself. So, just exchanging
gasses with the green world fora couple of minutes and I'll
shut up.
(22:01):
Thank you. Of course, I inviteyou to continue this for a bit
longer after the podcast.
Sara Artemisia (22:09):
Well, thanks so much, John, so so wonderful. And
I mean really, in what youshared there about how the
inhalation and the exhalation,it becomes this exchange of
gifts. How, you know, so oftenthere can be this experience, in
my perception of the humanexperience, in connecting with
plants, where it's more of likethrough the eyes, you know, as
(22:30):
if it's like, oh, they're overthere and I'm over here, my
human experience and how thebreath transcends that directly.
It's just right into the body oflike we are in relationship
through the very activebreathing. And how simple and
profound that is. So yeah, thankyou for sharing that so great
and and also on that note, justrecognizing the pivotal times
(22:54):
that we're in. Why is itimportant for deep ecology to
move more into the mainstream?
John Seed (23:01):
Well, deep ecology, the experience of deep ecology,
which Joanna Macy calls the workthat reconnects, reconnects us
both to the living Earth, to thenatural world, to the rest of
Nature. It dispels the illusionof separation, and that means
(23:22):
that we feel ever moremotivation to engage with
protecting wild Nature, but italso reconnects us only nest
calls for community therapies.
This isn't something that's doneindividually. It's done in a
circle with other people. Andwhat we find is that when we get
(23:43):
together with the circle ofpeople, and we have the shared
intention to heal our relationswith the more than human world,
a tremendous bonding developsbetween the people who do that
together. And I heard of areally interesting study a
couple of weeks ago, which Iloved, that someone posed a
(24:08):
difficult problem to a largenumber of people as individuals,
and about 10% of the people wereable to solve that problem, but
the same problem given to asmall group of individuals, 80%
of the groups solved the problembecause we're social mammals,
(24:29):
and we evolved to work togetherto solve the problems that we
face, that no matter how fit anIndividual is, unless they live
in a community that's fit. No noamount of personal fitness will
allow us to survive and to andto move forward, and so finding
(24:50):
a circle of people with whom weshare that intention to, heal
our relations with the Earth andto protect the Earth, it's just
a tremendously powerful forcethat I think is going to move us
forward.
Sara Artemisia (25:09):
Yeah, I completely agree with that. I'm
curious, for folks who may belistening right now who feel a
bit isolated, maybe they'reliving in a community where they
feel like they don't have thatkind of resonance. Do you have
any suggestions for how folkscould connect with others to
really deepen in this way?
John Seed (25:26):
Well, I mean, the first thing is just to look up
the work that reconnects anddeep ecology, a Nature
connection, rewilding, wordslike this, and see, you know
with your address. And see youknow, like, who, what's around?
Because there are thousands ofgroups around the world that are
(25:47):
already offering this. But theother thing is that what we've
found is that, because in theseworkshops, it's the intention
that does all of the heavylifting, that once a group of
people share that intentiontogether. You don't need like a
highly skilled facilitator oranything like that. And when
(26:07):
Joanna Macy and I joinedProfessor Arne Næss and Pat
Fleming and we wrote our bookthinking like a mountain towards
the Council of all beings in1988 and a PDF of that. There'll
be a link in the show notes sothat people can can can find
that book. We wrote it like arecipe book, where, just like a
(26:29):
recipe, you don't have to go tocooking school or anything like
that. You can just look at therecipe and follow the recipe and
and that's it. So many, manypeople have just, you know, so
basically, all that you need todo, if there's nothing else in
your neighborhood, is to put outa call for like minded people
(26:50):
and get together with three orfour people and then follow the
recipe, because it works and andthat becomes the focal point
that will attract more people,and it's these, it's these small
circles growing in number that Ithink, is where the hope lies.
Sara Artemisia (27:11):
Wonderful. Thank you so much for sharing that and
tell us, how can people find outmore about you and your work?
John Seed (27:18):
Oh, well, if you put you know, John Seed Deep Ecology
into a search engine, all mysocial media and other you know,
websites and things like thatwill be there.
Sara Artemisia (27:30):
Well, thanks so much, John and yeah, so
wonderful to connect today, andjust thank you so much for your
life's work and for honoringthat call and for being so
deeply engaged in inrelationship with the Earth.
Thank you.
John Seed (27:45):
Oh, well, thank you, Sara.
Sara Artemisia (27:47):
And thanks so much for listening and joining
us today on the Plant SpiritPodcast. I hope you enjoyed it,
and please follow to subscribe,leave a review and look forward
to seeing you on the nextepisode.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Bobby Bones Show
Listen to 'The Bobby Bones Show' by downloading the daily full replay.