Dave Jackson's Podcast Industry Predictions

When I first started my journey within the podcasting world, I was lucky enough to meet a range of people who have gone on to become genuine friends.

Amongst those is one of the finest, most revered people within our industry, Dave Jackson, a friend, mentor-from-afar and Podcast Hall of Fame inductee who continues to help podcasters around the world every single day.

On this episode, Dave and I dig deep into the last two decades of the podcasting industry and speculate on what might happen over the next twenty years.

This episode's guest is the wonderful Dave Jackson :

• Dave Jackson began podcasting in 2005 and launched the School of Podcasting (schoolofpodcasting.com). His School of Podcasting show has over 3.1 million downloads. He has helped hundreds of people plan, launch, and grow their podcasts. He is the author of the book Profit from your podcast and is a featured speaker at events. In 2016 Dave joined Libsyn (the largest podcast hosting company) as the head of podcaster education.  In 2018 he was inducted into the Academy of Podcasters Hall of Fame. Find all his shows at www.powerofpodcasting.com
• Dave's Website
• Dave's Facebook group
• Dave's Facebook page
• @DaveJackson on Twitter
• Dave on YouTube

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Your next steps

I teach podcasting a lot and for free. So, here's what I'd recommend you do next:

• Watch my free podcasting tutorials on YouTube: YouTube (Captivate)
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This podcast uses the following third-party services for analysis:

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Episode Transcript

Mark (00:01):
Hello there and
welcome to the Podcast Accelerator,this show that brings you some straight
talking actionable advice along withopinions that may not always be popular,
but that you probably need to hear andwhat a treat I've got for you today.
When I got into podcasting abouta decade ago now, through my
love of DC comics, there were afew people that I got to know.

(00:23):
There were a few people thathelped me along the way.
There were a few peoplethat have been there.
Ever since.
And this person is each and everyone of those, along with also being
an absolutely fantastic friendand an even better guitar player.
So I'm gonna go deep into the past ofpodcasting and we're gonna take a crystal
ball and we're gonna look ahead to thefuture of podcasting with my friend Mr.

(00:46):
Dave Jackson.
How are

Dave (00:47):
you, mark?
I'm doing great.
Uh, happy to be here buddy.

Mark (00:52):
Always a pleasure, mate.
Always a pleasure.
And we saw each other in London notso long ago for the podcast show.
How was the, the, thetrip over to Old Blighty?
Was it all

Dave (00:59):
right?
It was okay.
I kept, uh, I think on the way overwas where I had a gorilla of a man.
He had to be some sort of professional,uh, you know, sports person.
And so I was on the aisle and I justhad to the whole, the whole trip.
I'm leaning outside of my chairjust to give this guy some room.
So, but, uh, all in all, it wasn't bad.

Mark (01:19):
It's not like you came from Ireland either.
You didn't have a 40 minute flightmate, so I can sympathize with that one.
I've, I've been there flown coachand flown the red eye all over the
world in the name of podcasting.
And for anyone that doesn't know Dave,he's, he's a fantastic friend to not just
me, but to, to everyone in podcasting.
But, you know, he's forgotten thingsthat I will probably never know.
And he's just, he's, he's, he'sjust one of those people that

(01:43):
you'll look forward to seeing.
So I'm not gonna do the thing at the end.
Which is, tell us where peoplecan find you and all that stuff.
Let's do that now mate.
'cause I want as many people to, tojust get to where you are as possible.
So what are you up to right now?
Anyone that knows, you, knows,but for those that might be new to
you, what are you up to now mate?
And where can we get aholdof some of that stuff?

Dave (02:02):
Everything podcasting related.
Most of it is at, uh,school of podcasting.com.
That's kind of the, the flagship show.
I guess we could say.
What I do, podcastingis a sickness for me.
If you stand next to me for 20 minutes,I'll probably start another one.
And so I, I came up with a domain powerof podcasting.com, which is kind of a
link tree kind of site that just has alink of all the different things I'm into.

Mark (02:25):
I love it, mate.
I completely sympathize with that.
Every time, every time I getinto something it's like I'm
gonna do a podcast about that.
And it might be, I've justfound some new bread is, you
know, this isn't Bread's nice.
I'm gonna do a podcast about this bread.
This is cool.
And I know you're the same mate.
I know you are exactly the same.
That's it.
What, what is it, whatis it about podcasting?
Like, you've been in this since 2005.
What do you think it's about podcastingthat makes us like that because I feel.

(02:49):
Like certainly for me, I've been likethat since I discovered podcasting.
And I, and I'm assuming you have too.
Like what is it about themedium that makes us like that?

Dave (02:57):
I think the biggest thing for, I mean, you're a musician.
I'm a musician.
I remember growing up and thinkingI'd be at a, a record store and I'm
like, man, is there any way we couldever get my band's music in here?
And there are all sorts of gatekeepers.
And with podcasting there isn't one.
I mean, the, the good news isanybody can start a podcast.
The bad news is anybodycan start a podcast.

(03:18):
And so for me it's always interestingas I help people, 'cause first.
I gotta talk 'em intoturning the microphone on.
They're, they're worriedabout the audience.
And I always say, eh,nobody's listening yet.
Don't, don't worry about it.
It's not a big deal.
You're not gonna look stupid.
It's not radio.
And then when they first launched and theyget their, you know, 10 people, if you
count, your cousins are listening, andthen all of a sudden it starts to grow.

(03:41):
And it's interesting 'causefirst they were worried.
About starting and looking stupid,and then all of a sudden they're
like, oh wait, PE-people are,people are listening to this.
And I go, yeah, I, I kind of toldyou, you can grow an audience.
So I think part of it is not so much anegomaniac kind of way, but we all want
to get our voice out there and it's, youknow, a pretty easy way to get there.

(04:02):
And for me, what, what really?
When I grabbed my flag and, and I plantedit and said, oh, I, I, I claim podcasting.
This is, this is my new jam was I'min the middle of nowhere Ohio, out
with some cows and a guy found mypodcast from Nuremberg, Germany.
His name was Michael Van Lar,and he sent me a voicemail
and I was like, wait a minute.
There's, there's a guy on the otherside of the planet that not only

(04:25):
found my show, 'cause this is in 2005.
And not only found my show, but heliked it and he sent me a voicemail
and I went, oh, oh wait, hold on.
I get this now.
This is global.
And that's, I think another,uh, big selling point.
The fact that you can reach everybody.

Mark (04:41):
I love the accessibility idea of that.
The fact that you can talk about the thingthat you love from the place that you
are and someone who is in the place, thatthey are in the place that they love, just
happens to love the same thing that youdo and you make a connection around that.
And I've always been fascinated by.
By that as well.
And there's a real dopamine hitwhen you get that first listener
reaching out to you as well.
You know, when someone says that,I have heard what you have said.

(05:04):
And you know, even, even if you know,potentially contentiously, even if they
don't like it, someone's heard that.
And that's a real dopamine hit man.
So I, I completely get that.
And it's, it's fascinating towatch people flourish and their
attitudes change in their.
Almost their eyes light up whenyou catch up with them three

(05:25):
months in or six months in.
So I get that, man, you must,you've helped thousands of
podcasters, haven't you?
Is that, is that a fairly common thing?
Is that, does thatdopamine hit get everyone?

Dave (05:34):
Yeah, and one of my favorite things to see, and I got
to see it kind of in the wild.
I was coaching somebody the other day onZoom, and I'm helping them submit their
show to all the different directories.
And we submitted it to Spotify first, andthen we went through the whole list and.
We're, we're getting everything done.
And I said, Hey, you know, it's,it's been probably a half hour.
I said, go back to Spotifyand do a search for your show.
And he does.

(05:54):
And it was there and he clicked on it.
I go, look at you podcaster.
And just to watch his face like, holycow, that's my stuff right there.
And it was so cool because I'vetaken people that have approached
me and said, I hate technology.
I'm never gonna be able to do that.
And then, you know, a month and ahalf later, they're in Apple and
all the other different places,and it is, it's a dopamine hit.

(06:14):
I'm, I remember, you know, I wrotea book and, and the first time
I saw it in Amazon, I was like,wait, that's, that's my stuff.
So it's, it's cool.
And I know I just had a guy come in fromout of town, he's a listener and he said,
Hey, I would love to take you to lunch.
So I went to lunch with himand I've kind of known him.
He was a member of theschool of podcasting.
And all he wanted to do, the biggestreason why he wanted to take me to lunch

(06:35):
is just, I, I call these because of mypodcast stories where things that have
happened because he had a podcast and sohe's a, a pastor and he's now kind of a, a
church consultant that led to him meetingthe head of an agency and just, just
keep climbing up the, the giant pyramid.
And he ended up talking to like one of thetop, top people of this big organization.
He goes, I never would've done anyof that except I had a podcast.

(06:57):
And he goes, like it or not, he goes,your thumbprint's in there somewhere.
And it's, you don't realize thatso many times you're just talking
into a microphone and you thinknobody's listening, and then
somebody blows through town andsays, oh wow, you changed my life.
And you're like, wait, what?
I mean I started in thebasement of my brother's house.
I just got divorced.
My brother said, ah, comelive with me for a while.
So I'm down by the water heater.

(07:19):
Hope in the furnace doesn't turn on.
You know, I never had any idea,this is where I was gonna end up.

Mark (07:25):
That's the beauty of it, my friend and I, it, it's, I think everyone has
a story like that to different degreesand it's what's so beautiful about it.
I remember going to one ofmy first events, so I, I was,
I started podcast in 2013.
That was my first foray into it,and then got a bit more serious in
2014, um, and went to my first eventat n MX in Vegas, which is where I

(07:45):
met you for the first time, I think.
And it was, That was a wild event.
'cause it was, it was at the Westgate,it was co-located with, what was it?
I can't remember.
The NAB show maybe.
And, uh, it was just this weirdly wildlittle event that that then disappeared.
But what really struckme about it was that I.

(08:07):
Every, everyone felt the same aboutpodcasting and, and we all, like I used
to come from sort of a digital agencybackground and came from, like you said,
being in bands and being a musicianand then come from, um, being like a
contract trainer and freelancing in everyworld that I was in prior to podcasting,
everyone was out to get you or the best,they were ambivalent that you existed

(08:32):
because, It, it, it didn't matter to them.
And what struck me so much about itwas everyone was just so supportive.
Everyone wanted to seeeveryone else succeed.
I know we're gonna talk about thepast and we're gonna talk about
the future and so on, but I.
That, that's what got mereally hard to lean into it.
And, and, and I know that's sortof, I know that's what you support

(08:54):
people through, and I know you, you,you've experienced the same thing.
Does it feel the same today,especially after Covid and we've all
been locked, locked in a little bit.
Like what, what is that sideof things like at the minute?

Dave (09:05):
Yeah, it's, it's a little different, but it, I always say at the heart of
every good podcast is a servant, somebodywho wants to serve their audience.
And so, Uh, with that, I think weall kind of wanna get the message
out, whatever it is, if we're talkingabout DC comics or, or whatever, we
wanna talk about those things we love.

(09:26):
And so that is just something, and, andagain, the dopamine kick, we know what
it feels like when you have somebodythat says, man, I love this show.
I, I swear you made this just for me.
And so we know what that feels like.
So when somebody comes along and goes,I'm, I'm trying to figure out should
I call it this or what microphonewe're, oh, hold, let me help you
because we want you to feel like we do.
So there's that.

(09:47):
The biggest difference I rememberin the very first podcast conference
was in California and myself and PaulCulligan looked at each other and
said, you know, if we actually gotenough people listening to this thing,
We might be able to make some money.
And people looked at uslike we were the devil.
They're like, it's my art man.
Why would I want to, you know?
And I was like, easy, easy.

(10:07):
So there is a definite monetization thingthat's going on much now that that's
going on that's a little different.
And the, the big networks, 'cause inthe early days we were all independents.
Now you walk in and there's thewondery and the, all the different
big networks and, and I don'treally know that many people.
That are in the big networks.

(10:28):
I remember once I went to, uh,a thing in Brooklyn, New York, I
forget the name of the event, butit was very much all big networks.
And I remember I walked up to a guy andI said, oh, what do you doing podcasting?
And he goes, oh, I'm, I'mpart of the storyboard.
I.
I like put the, and Iwas like, wait, what?
And I was like, I, you know, I writemy notes down on a post-it note and put

(10:49):
it on my monitor and hit record, andthey're writing out these, so it was
one of those where you listen to a showand there's like 18 people at the end.
That was kind of that thing.
So that's, that's something that has comealong and we'll see if that continues.
You know, we keep hearing about peoplelosing their jobs and podcasting,
and maybe it's the guy that you know,Did the storyboard and maybe, maybe

(11:10):
they figured out that maybe we don'tneed a guy doing the storyboard.
I don't, I don't know.
So it's, it's the same in many ways.
As it grows.
You know, the great thingabout it, there are no rules.
So you can do whatever you want.
One of the things I love about yourshow, mark, is the fact that a, it's
your opinion and you know, the, shallwe say, the mainstream, you know, if,

(11:32):
if everybody in podcasting is saying,oh, everybody go left, go left, go left.
I can turn on Mark Show.
And he'd be like, ah, it's crap.
Listen to you.
Go to the right.
And you know, and I love the fact thatyou get a different opinion and you
go, I've never thought about that.
So that's, I, I think when westarted podcasting was like
a big, giant middle finger.
The, the radio in the US is horrendous.

(11:54):
It's the same 17 songs.
I love ac, C D, C, I neverwant to hear a single song Off
A Back and Black ever again.
It's just been played to death,followed by 30% commercials,
30%, and it's just ridiculous.
So we were all, Hey, you know what?
We're not all gonna talk about this.
And weather on the tens,not all nine yards.
All right, everybody.
'cause nobody talks like that.

(12:14):
I think that was one of the big thingsthat, that really kicked off podcasting.
It's like, wow, these, these peoplesound real and they're not, you know,
it's not binky in the Wiz or whoever.
It's, it's real.

Mark (12:26):
Yeah, I understand that.
I appreciate the kind words as well.
And it's, it's, uh, it's, it is alwaysbeen interesting for me because I've
found podcasting as a way of, um,what's the best way to articulate it?
Like, fitting in.
I, I, I've never fit in, like I've been,you know, I've been in bands, I've played
around, I've, I've always created things.
Um, But you know, I'm areally big A D h D brain.

(12:46):
I'm a really big sort of, I'm a strategicthinker and I've never, I've never
fit in because of those two things.
I, I tend to see things everso slightly differently.
And podcasting.
When I started creating content,it was, it was sort of weird 'cause
it was never in the, never, theintent was never to be contrarian.
It was more just, just theway I sometimes see things.
And I think one of the bigthings for me that podcasting

(13:09):
has allowed is almost for me to.
Give myself some sort of self therapy.
Like genuinely if I'm struggling withsomething, especially at work or if I'm
struggling with something in the industryor if I'm struggling with something.
Um, for example, you know, we gotacquired, we became part of global
18 months ago, nearly were two yearsago now, which, which has been great.

(13:30):
It's a fantastic move.
And the the team are wonderful.
And, and you, we, we had atour around Global's offices.
You've seen what it's like, um, But for ayear, it took me a little bit of figuring
out, like, why couldn't I create content?
And it was, 'cause I was alittle bit burnt out for the
last 10 years of doing it.
And I was a little bit, I didn't reallyknow what I wanted to say anymore.
I, I, and it took me a yearto sort of figure that out.

(13:51):
But when I started this show back up,it was genuinely like therapy again.
It was, it was, it wasthe release of, right.
Okay.
Actually, here's a way for me to saythe things that I need to say without.
Anyone really caring, and I know itsounds bizarre and a bit flippant to say

(14:13):
that, but honestly, like you either likethe shows or you don't like the shows.
If I start a show about the new breadthat I found at the store and I love it,
it doesn't matter whether someone likesit or not, I'm sort of doing it for me
and that's why we run Star Wars showsand we are on golf shows and you run
shows about the things that you'll have.
Do you think there's.
Because of the way that podcasting seemsto have, have split, you know, we've got

(14:36):
podcasting, the media, so the networks,we've got the big brands, we've got
everything from programmatic advertisingright through to people building
networks for, for mass IP players.
You know, and then you've gotus, you've got the people that do
it because, because we love it.
What, what do you say to those peoplewho, who, who approach things like
we do, we do it and we want to doit because we love it, but we're

(14:58):
now worried that podcasting is.
Quote, unquote, too big.
There are too many podcasts.
You know, if we believe the media, if webelieve the hype, that podcasting's too
big, someone knocks on your door, Dave,I wanna do this thing, but I'm worried.
Is there any room for me?
Like, what's your answer

Dave (15:13):
to that?
Well, think about this.
If, uh, there's a junior high kid and he'sa pretty good quarterback, He thinks I'll
never be Tom Brady, so I'm just gonna quitor think about all the authors every year.
I mean, every year in the book industry,there are 27 different books about how

(15:33):
to lose weight that probably are sayingthe exact same thing that somebody else
has said many, many, many, many times.
And if you look at, uh, the news, ifyou turn on the news at night, wherever
you are, you probably got at leastfour or five stations that are talking
about everything that happened today.
Well, why do we have five?
Why do we have five stationstalking about what happened today?

(15:54):
Because some people like this person.
The, what I did watch, I don'twatch hardly any news anymore,
but when I did, I watched this onechannel, and I'll be completely
just, you know, a, a, a pig here.
Uh, the, the reporter was hot.
She was absolutely stunningly beautiful,and that's why I wanted that channel.
But, so we have different reasons why wedo different things, and so the person

(16:15):
that goes, well, who's gonna listen to me?
It's saturated number one.
There are a lot of podcasts.
If you hear there's like 4 millionpodcasts, which is true, but only
maybe a couple hundred thousandare actually producing podcasts.
There are a lot of people that startoff and they're on a free media host,
and they do maybe three episodes.

(16:36):
They figure out that, oh, to make thisgood, it's gonna take a little more
effort than just talking into my phone.
And they quit.
Well, if it's on a free mediahost, it stays there forever,
until they, you know, pull it down.
And so I always say, if youlook and you go, oh, there's so
many podcasts about my niche.
I'm like, go dig one step a little deeper.
See when the last time they putout an episode and you're gonna

(16:57):
see a lot of them were like, 2020,because that was like pandemic time.
Everybody's bored.
Let's start a podcast.
So, uh, you know, and you're.
You know, you never knowwhat's gonna happen.
I always say when people, Ihave people like, Hey, I'm
gonna do a podcast about this.
Do you think people would listen?
And I'm like, that's likecoming to me going, Hey, I'm
gonna mix these ingredients.

(17:18):
Do you think if I put these into anoven and bake them, they'd be good?
I'm like, there's only one way to tell.
You know, do it and taste it.
Go, yeah, this is actually prettygood, but you can't, you know,
there are best practices that youcan talk about, but in the end, if
you wanna see if it's gonna work ornot, you gotta put out the podcast.

Mark (17:34):
It's like anything, you know, if I wanna play guitar, you know, you and I
have, have, have, have drunkenly sharedstages together in Florida a few times,
and I, if I, if, if, if I want to startlearning to play bass and I want to get
up on that stage and play stand by me,or I wanna play a journey song, or I
wanna play whatever it is I wanna play.
The first thing I've gotta do is getup, make sure the guitar's got some

(17:55):
strings on it, stick a strap on, getit over my shoulder, and just hit the
thing with something to make a sound.
And it might sound good, itmight sound bad, but I've got to
start somewhere with that one.
A lot of people, certainlyover the last five or six years
have thrown out that phrase.
It's never been easier to start a podcast.
And you alluded to it earlier,you know, one of the upsides of
podcasting is everyone can start one.

(18:16):
One of the downsides iseveryone can start one.
With, with the change in technology,the availability of cheaper,
higher quality microphones, theavailability of online software, the
availability of different hostingplatforms and different web platforms
and ai, this, that and the other.
What, what do you see that landscapeas being like at the minute?

(18:38):
The, the number one, the ease of startinga podcast, and then number two, the
ease of starting a quality podcast.
What does that feel like today?

Dave (18:50):
Oh, man.
Compared to 2005, I was actually, I,I hadn't even discovered WordPress
yet, so I was making my website inDreamweaver, and then I used a software
called Feed for All to make my feed.
It was an absolute nightmare.
So that's definitely easier now you justupload your file to your media host.

(19:10):
They give you a feed that's done.
There are tools like the VO casterfrom Focus, right where you press
and hold down a button and itsets your recording level for you.
I just saw there's a Zoom F three thatnow, and let's get our geek on records
and 32 bit floating, which means basicallyit's really hard to make bad audio.
Uh, so things aredefinitely getting easier.

(19:31):
That's the beauty of it because.
Man, the early days of podcastingthings just sounded horrendous.
And if we can get people to onlyuse the phone as a last resort, and
if you are recording on your phone,get that microphone by your mouth.
Don't do the whole put it onspeaker and stick it on the desk.
That's not gonna work.
But it's, it is so much easier to do that.

(19:52):
And I've, I've had people that,you know, we get 'em into Apple
and Spotify, et cetera, and they'relike, okay, what's the next thing?
And I go, well, now it'sjust make great episodes.
Promote it, and that's really it.
Just repeat over and over and overthe, you mentioned things like ai.
That's gonna be a fun one to watch becausewhen it's, when I'm having it write

(20:14):
stuff, and I usually don't use what itwrites for me, I let it write something
and I go, oh, that's where I should go.
And then I go off and write it.
I use it as almost like a brainstorming.
Tool because I know so many people aresaying, oh, people are gonna have chat,
g p t, write a script and then I'm gonnathrow it into revoice her and have it
voice it and put it out and automate it.
So you know, it'll findcontent, record it post.

(20:36):
I'm like, yeah, and that's gonna be awful.
The, the one thing that AI can't do, Iwas listening to an episode, uh, Adam A.
Adams does a show, I thinkit's Grow Your Podcast.
If I remember right, I had tomet up with him a little bit.
He's a nice guy.
But he did an episode that basicallyhe said, I'm just gonna kind of
go a little bit on a tangent.

(20:57):
And he'd had a kind of a hard yearand he, he kept losing friends.
And he goes, all I wannasay today is car diem.
Seize the day.
We don't know how many days we have left.
And you know, don't, don't go toyour grave with your podcast in
you get it out there, you know?
And I was like, chat g p t can't do that.
Because it was very emotional and itwas based on his in, you know, his

(21:20):
influences and things that had happened.
And I'm like, chat G B T can't do that.
And so I'm not sold that AI isgonna be the savior of making
content going forward in the future.
I mean, it's, on one hand it'sas bad as it's ever gonna be
right now 'cause it's brand new.
But I, I think the human side ofpodcasting is a what attracts people.

(21:41):
They're either gonna like you or they'regonna, or they're gonna love you.
I have a, a friend of mine, Daniel J.
Lewis is who is very much a deepdive, just the facts kind of guy.
That's the way he is.
And I'm a little morelooser, a little more goofy.
And we're both very goodfriends and we have both had I.
A, a listener say, Hey, I, I triedto listen to your friend show,
but, uh, you know, in my case thatthat guy's just all over the place.

(22:03):
He's like a campaign for a D H D andI've had other people go, yeah, try to
listen to Daniel, man, that guy's dry.
And so you put it out there andyou're gonna attract the people that
like you and the people that don't.
That's fine.
There are other 4 million podcaststo go listen to that aren't this one.
It is

Mark (22:20):
funny, isn't it?
The, the, that alludes to, to the,the kind of question earlier as well.
It goes back to that a littlebit in, in sofar as you know.
What would you say to someone that, that,that is thinking about starting a show but
is worried there are too many around you?
And I can say the same thing indifferent ways and have different
opinions and all the, the lifeexperience that we've got leads to
that opinion and, and I think that isthe beauty of any kind of creation.
You know, whether it's blogging, Whetherit is, whether it's YouTube, whether

(22:43):
it's, it's, it's, it's audio recordingand, and putting it out as a podcast.
You took me back therewith Dreamweaver mate.
I was using that as wellwhen it was Macromedia.
I remember before Adobe even boughtit, and I was doing the same, I
was coding websites, using tables.
You know, c s s had not taken a hold.
We were, you know, we were, wow.
We were going, all, all the styling wasin line, if there was any styling at all.

(23:04):
And it was building r s sfeeds for, for, for blogs and.
Man, like the halon days of, uh,of, of the web 1.0 timeframe.
And it was fascinating.
But that, that sort ofleads me onto technology.
'cause we talked about AI andwe talked about Dreamweaver.
All right.
I think it's pretty rare thatthey're gonna come up again in the
same conversation, but the Yeah, weprobably got tick in a box there.

(23:27):
Mentioned Dreamweaver andAI in the same sentence.
But the, so AI is fascinatingto me, and, and, and there's a.
Even if we don't think about ai, right?
The tech of podcasting issomething that I talk to.
Uh, this might, I, I'm gonna, I'm gonnaavoid try and avoid this going into

(23:48):
rant mode, but there's a lot of, there'sa lot of rubbish out there, right?
So we're in the hosting game, all right?
You work over, at, over at Lipson.
Our friends, Rob Elsie and Bradand Laurie and yourself and, and
some fantastic people over there.
Highly, highly recommended Libsyn for,for years and, and what a fantastic team.
And obviously we workon Captivate and it's.

(24:09):
I've always been a fan of collaborationever since I got in the industry.
You know, my goal has been to,to to, to, um, be friends with
people and all ships rise.
And, and that's why I neversee anyone as competition.
And I, I, I think that's whyeveryone's such good friends.
But I'm seeing recently that there'sa lot of technology companies that

(24:29):
are doing things with quote unquoteai and they're putting things like the
podcasting 2.0 stuff and they're doinglike half baked implementations of it.
And, and, and, and whatever else,just to get a tick on a feature list
and, and, and just almost do a littlebit of every piece of buzzword just
so that they can use it in marketing.

(24:51):
And the reason that I say that is becauseit's, it's the, it's the stepping stone to
the, the next set of, of logic, which istechnology and podcasting has been great.
But every time I see someonesay, we've created this AI tool
that's gonna do magic clips foryou, which is great, that's cool.
And we're gonna allow social sharing.
And all I do is think of clamor.

(25:13):
You know, we've been there,we've done it, and I think,
and it happens again and again.
Okay.
We're gonna build a network.
It's gonna be a sports vertical,and it's gonna be an app.
It's gonna be the Netflix ofpodcasting, just in the sports vertical.
And I'm like, all right.
You mean like Spotify or Apple Podcastis, you know, so there's a lot of repeated
stuff and people pick upon buzzwords andthey try to use those buzzword buzzwords

(25:36):
to elevate themselves within the industry.
Does that, is that just me beingthe grumpy guy in podcasting?
Or is there any logic and any reasonto just slow down as a podcaster?
Don't worry too much about the trends andjust focus on distributing good content.

(25:57):
Like where, where's your head on that one?
Because it's like, it frustrates me a lot.

Dave (26:02):
Yeah, it does.
I had, 'cause what happens is I had aguy in in at the London Show that's like,
oh, well you're just an old podcaster.
And I'm like, well no.
I've been around and I've seen it.
I know there's somethingnow about, it's an app.
It's like cherry picking or something.
Cherries, I forget whatit is, but it's clamor.
It's clamor with an absolutely new name.

(26:22):
And I just said, go Google clamor.
I go this, this has been tried.
I'm not here saying it's not gonna work.
I'm just letting you know thehistory that this has been tried.
It failed.
And if I have another person thatcome up and says, Hey, I've, I've got
a tool, it's gonna solve this, thediscoverability problem, and podcasting.
And I go, podcasting doesn'thave a discoverability problem.

(26:43):
And I got into an argument onceand somebody said, well, I.
There's no, uh, oh, I forgetwhat it was, but discoverability.
And I said, okay, explain that.
And they said, well, that's where, youknow, some sort of algorithm, watches what
you do and, and, and learns what you like,and then recommends things that you like.
And I go, oh, I have that.
I go, it's not artificialintelligence, it's actual intelligence.

(27:04):
They're called friends and theygo, oh, you like that one thing?
You should listen to this podcast.
And if a friend recommendsit, I'm gonna go listen to it.
And.
It's just one of those things whereyou know you have to market your show.
Um, I was talking with Gary Art.
He does a show called EverythingEverywhere, super popular show, and
he's just knocking it outta the park.

(27:25):
Well, he pays for marketing.
I.
He said, well, think about it.
He goes, the, the second Avengersmovie now, I think they're like three
or four, but you know, the, therewas the one where everybody didn't
end so well and then there was thefollow-up and we're all waiting to
see, oh, what happened to so-and-soWho's gonna make it and who didn't?
It's this giant cliffhanger and they,they spent $200 million promoting a
movie that everybody was waiting to see.

(27:48):
Now that went on to make like2 billion with a B, but they
still had a marketing budget.
And so I'm with you on that.
When I hear, oh, it's this, the,you know, this is gonna solve
discoverability by placing a, uh,promo of your show at the very, very,
very, very end of somebody else's show.
And I go, okay, that might bea trickle, but I don't think

(28:11):
that's gonna be the giant firehose that you're painting it as.
Well,

Mark (28:14):
and that's the, I think that's the funny thing, man.
The, the, the, the, the trickles turn intotributaries and each one of those leads
into a river, and that river is marketing.
And it's, you're absolutely right.
There is no one way to do it.
And I, I often say this on this show,it's, you know, people will, you see
all the time in the, in the Facebookgroups, how do I grow my podcast?
It's the number one question.
And I always think to myself, right,okay, let's swap the word podcast

(28:36):
out for anything else, right?
How do I grow my band?
You do gigs until youcannot move your arms.
How do I grow my business?
You go out and make sure that everyoneknows what you do and where to find
you, how to find you, and then you letthem know that you will do a good job.
Right?
If I'm a plumber, that's all I doand it's, that's why, you know.

(28:59):
Old podcasters.
It was like my old dad, the electrician,he's still getting work 'cause he's the,
he is the old guy that has been therefor a long time doing the marketing.
And it's quite a flippant thingfrom, from certainly from my side
to just say, go and learn marketing.
'cause there are somany facets to that one.
But to me there is, there is, therewill never be one single way to grow.

(29:22):
Or to do anything with success.
It's a range of things, and that'swhy the marketing mix exists.
It's not, that's not made up, you know?

Dave (29:32):
Well, and, and the thing that I think, and I'm just pulling this
number outta my butt, I'm gonnasay 90% of podcasters don't do the
one thing that every business does.
If I'm opening a restaurant.
I'm not going to open a restaurantwith food that's never been tasted.
I want somebody to eat thisand go, Ew, it needs more salt.

(29:53):
Or this, can we, what's that?
And, and I get it.
I totally understand why people do this.
You just spent 15 hours making a15 minute podcast because you're
going through the learning curveand I just want it out there.
I just want to, but you need to stop.
I mean, Ron Howard is asuper famous director, actor.
He's won a gazillion awardsand before a movie goes live.

(30:16):
He sits in a theater with the audiencebecause he knows when they're supposed
to laugh and cry and shriek or whatever,and he goes, if it's not getting the
reaction that I'm looking for, he goes,we need to go back and edit because
I want this people to, to cry here.
And they're, they're laughing.
Instead, there's somethingreally, really wrong.
I.
And we ask our mom, and mom says,oh honey, it's, look at you.

(30:37):
You're so professional.
Look at you with the microphone.
And she sends you off to, and now I'mgonna go spend money on marketing because
you know, Dave said that one guy did well.
Yeah.
But is your podcast gettingthe reaction you wanted to?
And because of you, mark, you'dsaid you need to go learn marketing.
So I bought a Dan Kennedy.
'cause I've heard about DanKennedy from every single person.

(30:59):
And he, he asked the question, and Ithink most podcasters don't, which is,
why should someone listen to your podcast?
What, what's gonna make you different?
How are you delivering value?
And I get it.
Look, if you just want to talk about.
Whatever in the basement.
I, I love, you know, tennis, I'mgonna do a tennis podcast and
I just wanna talk about tennis.
Okay, that's fine.

(31:20):
But if the goal was to grow itand maybe later even monetize
it, It's gotta be a good product.
And I'm not sure everybody does that.
I mean, I just went through this, I redidmy sales page and brought in a coach
and they said, oh, this is good this.
Ooh.
And I was talking about features, but Iwasn't talking about benefits and I was
just way too close to my own material.
And I went, oh, you know what?

(31:41):
That's absolutely right.
And so, you know, when you talk aboutmarketing and growing your show, I think
a lot of people are trying to grow ashow that's not really connecting the
way they think it is with their audience.
I.

Mark (31:53):
I wholly agree with that, and I, I, I think so many people are so
close to the thing that they lovebecause they love it, because, you
know, podcasting we said right at thebeginning, it's the thing that allows
us to talk about the thing that we love.
So, and we, and we never, I'm in a bandand I, I, you know, someone says, you're
gonna, you're gonna go and tour, or you'regonna do X, Y, and Z and you're gonna
do all these gigs, and that's amazing.
It feels good.

(32:14):
If someone says, I dunno if how bigMcFly are out in, in the us but in the
uk if you are McFly, you've done yourtime, but you've gotta make two albums
that are really poppy and you'll, you'lldo well off them, but they're probably
not the thing that you want to do.
But after that, youcan make what you want.
You're gonna probably do it, andit's one of those things where

(32:34):
it'll feel uncomfortable, but the,the fact of the matter is the music
that you make and the brand thatyou put out there is the product.
And once people like that product, you'vegot latitude to introduce new things.
It's like the successful restaurant.
Okay, here's a preview night.
We're thinking about bringing someAsian infusions into this menu.
Let's just do one preview.
Now, we're not gonna change thewhole menu, but we understand the

(32:56):
menu is a product, and I agreethat a lot of podcasters don't
necessarily think like that.
I've, I've, I've always been, weirdly, I.
I don't wanna s Yeah, probably lucky justbecause I, I've, I've been in, I've been
working for myself since I was like 21, 22years old, just through a D H D necessity.
It was like, better work formyself, otherwise I'm gonna

(33:17):
get fired three times a year.
So it was, which was,that's my twenties mate.
That was my twenties.
So I've always been able to sortof say, Okay, with your podcast,
why don't we approach this, forexample, like a tech startup.
You know, if, if I do somethingat Captivate, I want to test it.
You know, if I bring out membership andtipping functionality, it's not, I'm not

(33:41):
just testing the technicalities of it.
I'm testing, does anyoneactually want this?
So, we'll, you know, we'll, we'lldevise some tests and that might be
going out and speaking to people.
It might be going out and testing,uh, you know, whatever the user flow
and, and, and, and x, Y, and Z andgoing through and making sure that
they actually want the thing thatwe're going to build as a podcaster.

(34:01):
Like you said, we just let go.
We just let go.
And if that's me wanting to do thatfor that cell therapy, that's cool.
But as you say, if it's gonna bea product, There does come a point
where we do what you've just said.
We, we, we tighten up, we think aboutthings a little more, which leads me
to, to, to the next train of thought,which is I'm a busy kind of podcaster.

(34:22):
Okay?
So I'm, I'm someone that ison the cusp of great numbers.
I know it's a good show.
I know it is a showthat people respond to.
I get feedback from people.
Um, I'm on what I feelto be the cusp of making.
Money and good money from this.
Maybe covering a car payment, maybe evencovering a mortgage payment and being
able to go four days a week in my day job.

(34:44):
That's where I am.
I can't seem to get it over the line.
What, what do you tend to see assomeone that's done this since 2005?
What are the things that people aretoo loose on that will stop them?
Turn it into that thingthat they want it to be.

Dave (35:03):
Yeah, the, the one that always really makes me scratch my head, and
this is again, in podcasting, like youmentioned, you have a lot of little garden
hoses that fill up a river, and so, butI will see people like, I'm trying to
grow my audience and I'll go and look.
And they're in Spotify,but they're not in Apple.
Or maybe they're in both, but thereare another like 10 directories

(35:26):
that you could list your show in.
And I was like, you know, if you, inthe US we have Halloween and, and you
dress up your kids in weird costumes andthey go out and get candy and usually
it's anybody with their front porchlight on, they have candy and that kid
doesn't look at the street and go, well,alright, so everybody has their light on.
I might go to this oneand, and Nah, not that one.

(35:47):
Not that one.
And then no, they want candy.
So they go to every single house andthey get candy and every podcaster's
like, I want more downloads.
And you're like, okay, here, hereare all these directories that
have their lights on and havethousands of people that love audio.
And you're like, nah, I don't need those.
iHeartRadio.
Never heard of it.
Amazon.
Nah, maybe I'm like, listyour show everywhere.
So there's that.

(36:07):
And then you get into, I see, uh, Iknow there was a database of newsletters
and again, Not a horrible strategy.
If there's a niche that you know, thisis a bunch of people that raise cows
and you have a podcast about raisingcows, okay, it might make sense to
advertise in that newsletter, but weknow those people like to read and you're

(36:28):
looking for people who like to listen.
And so that's where trying to findother shows like yours that you can
either be a guest on or you know,sponsor them or things like that.
'cause you really want to go to whereyour audience is and your audiences.
Primarily listening to podcasts andthe thing that drives me bonkers,

(36:48):
'cause I get about four a day, is,hello, I found your show and I love it.
So right there, I'm like,okay, my name's Dave.
Not that I'm an egomaniac,but it's pretty easy to find.
I say it at the beginning of everyepisode and when you say, I love your
show, I have about five, which one?
So I know right there.
I'm just gonna get a bunch of spam.
And then it's all about the guest.

(37:09):
And I always tell people, if youwant to be a guest on another show,
make it all about their audience andhow you can serve their audience.
Again, good podcasters are serving theiraudience and explain to the the host how
you can help them serve their audience.
Oh, I, I heard you talk about topic A.
I'm also in this field.
Have you've ever talked abouttopic B and go that route.

(37:30):
So when you can get your showin front of other listeners,
that right now seems to be.
You know, whether you're doing paidadvertising and some of that gets
really expensive, so be carefulif your podcast isn't used as a
marketing tool to bring in more money.
You're kind of justlighting your money on fire.
It's gonna be hard to get that back.
So, uh, you know, but, you know, gettingyour show in front of other listeners

(37:53):
seems to be the way right now that,that people are growing their show.

Mark (37:58):
It's fascinating that, that people often.
We'll start a podcast and they'll,you know, they'll say, well,
okay, I've started my, my show.
I've got two or three episodesout there and it's not growing.
And when can I monetize?
When can I make money?

(38:18):
And what always amazes me is that I,if I say, if I walk in, I've got a,
I'm on a startup accelerator, okay?
I've got a new startup business and Iregister my limited company here in the
uk and I get some business cards done.
I get some flyers or some leaflets doneand I don't really do anything else.
I just walk in there on thatstartup accelerator and I say,

(38:41):
well, I've got the business.
I've got these flyers.
Why is it not making any money?
I'm gonna get sort oflaughed out of the building.
I.
Because I'm expecting a 40 houra week job to deliver a 40 hour a
week salary, but I'm only puttingin one hour or two hours per week.

(39:03):
And for me, the expectations with somany people are that you can start
a podcast and you can make money.
Right away.
Where the hell has that come from, man?
Like, why if I start playinggolf, I, I don't wanna make money.
Uh, just if I start playingguitar, don't wanna make money.
If I do a YouTube channel,I don't wanna make money.

(39:24):
If I write a blog, I'm notthinking about making money.
Why do you think it is thatpodcasting suddenly people are
just saying, I start a show.
I should be making money.
Where's that come from?

Dave (39:34):
I, the easy money is the part I'm with you that scratches my head.
I think part of it is the, the kind ofspan of time we went through where Spotify
was just spending money, like it was, youknow, uh, free basically, you know, 200
million to Joe Rogan and things like that.
So I think that's part of it.
And I also think.

(39:54):
Some of it is, uh, we'll,we'll call them gurus.
The people that sell hopefor three easy payments.
You know, I can change your life.
Just give me, you know, $300, threeeasy payments, yada, yada, yada.
And, and they say things that you like.
Think about it.
Uh, and I know you guys havedifferent singing, uh, contests.
In the UK we have American Idol.

(40:16):
Anybody tell me who the seasonsix American Idol winner was?
So you can get tons of exposure, but ifyou haven't put in the reps and not that
those people aren't un, they're not, youknow, they're obviously talented, they
won, but it takes more than exposure.
It's about a relationship thatyou build with your audience.
And I, I know I've mentioned the.
I did a book on uh, uh, podcastmonetization and I asked people, how

(40:40):
long did it take you to really, youknow, generate some, some decent income?
And it was somewhere between two and threeyears leaning much more towards three.
Nobody wants to hear that.
They want to hear.
And you know, I had somebody the otherday and they have about 60 downloads
an episode now that's three classrooms.
You know, my background's in teaching.

(41:02):
That's half a hallway.
That's pretty good.
Those people could be listeningto satellite radio or playing
Xbox or all these other things.
But what nobody says is 5% orless are gonna take action If you
have something to sell and you'relike, oh, that can't be real.
But I'm here to tell you, I, if youkeep your ear open for it, anytime

(41:22):
I go to a podcast event and they'retalking about monetization, if somebody
brings up like, how many, how muchof your audience can you expect to.
To actually, you know, go for apremium, uh, effort and it's around 3%.
When I listen to, uh, when I talkto the people from Teachable,
that's a, a training platform, theysaid 2% and Radio Labs a really,

(41:44):
really popular science podcast.
And one time they were doing.
Kind of a uh, a fundraiser like,Hey, we know you like the show.
Thanks so much.
We appreciate your po your support.
There are millions of listeners andfor that we're eternally grateful.
Uh, we're just trying toget up to 1% of you Contr.
And I was like, wait, radio Lab.
'cause if you're in a room and you say theword radio lab and there's a fan of the

(42:05):
show, they could be like 15 feet from you.
They hear Radiolab, they're going,oh my God, I love that show.
It's crazy that they have these rabidfans and they were trying to get up to 1%.
So I don't think mostpeople talk about that.
'cause it's hard to sellyour life-changing podcasting
course for three easy payments.
When you say, oh, by theway, it's kind of hard.

(42:26):
I.
Not everybody's gonna buy.
And it's not 50%, it's not 20%, it's 10%.
But you build the trust like I trust you,mark, because I know your background.
I know you've got a lot of marketingin your background, and I just love
the way you think and I love yoursense of humor and things like that.
So if Mark says, you know what you needto do, you need to go learn marketing.
I'm like, you know what?

(42:46):
That's right.
My background's in teaching.
I need more marketing chops.
So that's where that really is the power.
Again, it's the relationship.
So, but I don't know, I, you know,the poor music industry, everybody
thinks music is free and you know,every musician's truly starving.
Now there are, I, I just, there's amusician I watch on YouTube and she

(43:08):
said, I'm not putting my music onSpotify, because if you buy my CD
for like $9, And I, it was somethingridiculous, like 38,000 plays.
She goes, one CD is worth likea gazillion different plays.
And she says, so consequently, ifyou're a true fan of my music, I've
made the packaging special and youknow, come buy my actual physical cd.

(43:31):
And I was like, well, good on you sister.
Bucking the system.

Mark (43:37):
Creativity is, has always been one of those things that's
so difficult to, to, to monetize.
You look at.
You know, you and I come from that, fromthat musical background, and you, you,
the, the amount of gigs that you have todo to, to earn the first hundred bucks.
And then to go from a hundred bucks anight band to a 500 and to a thousand,
and then to actually supporting people.
And I mean, it's, it's nota dissimilar journey, is it?

(44:00):
It's like you say,

Dave (44:00):
it's the reps.
Well, and, and when people go, canyou make a living in podcasting?
You go, absolutely.
Can you make a living as a musician?
I.
Or an athlete, or an author, or an actor.
'cause we're in the entertainmentbusiness, like it or not.
And so sure you can, but thereare a lot of really, really
talented musicians in Nashville.
You know, tendon bar, you know,it's, it's not a automatic thing.

(44:23):
I, I've seen people, they'll, they'llhear me say that three year thing
and then they'll do a, a podcast thatmay or may not be growing a whole
lot and they're like, I've alreadybeen doing it for three years.
I'm ready to make money.
And I'm like, No, no, no.
It's three years to grow enough.
It's not based on time.
I mean, otherwise I should have a Grammy.
I've been playing the guitar since I was12, so, you know, it's not time-based.

(44:45):
It's the size of the audience and themore niche you are, then you might
get away with a smaller audience.
Uh, I think one of my favorite.
Just examples of a niche podcast.
There's a guy that does the chameleonbreeder and he makes cages for chameleons.
So he's actually making adecent amount of cash, but he
doesn't have a ton of downloads.

(45:07):
Well, yeah, but the people that listen tothat are exactly who he's trying to reach.
So it, it varies on that, butit's, it's not based on time.
It's based on growing the audience, andthat's the part that's not always easy.

Mark (45:19):
That's a great example.
That's a great example.
And it, it, it's, you have tobecome so many other things.
When you get to that stage as well, youhave to become the startup founder, the
business person, the bookkeeper, themarketer, the sales executive, the, the,
the, the, the administration assistant.
So there's a heck of alot that goes into that.
Now, my friend, I'm gonna have toput a pin in it in just a second.
I could talk to you forever and Ithink we should absolutely jump back

(45:40):
on and talk a little bit more aboutthe future of podcasting because I
think there's another hour in that.
So I, I, I think we should actuallybook a bit of a follow up on that one.
Just to wrap up and to give people a bitof a taster, what are you worried about?
Podcasting.
We're 20 years in.
What's the, what arethe things that are on

Dave (45:57):
your mind?
The thing that makes me worriedis, look, advertising is definitely
a way to monetize your podcast.
If you have enough downloads, and wejust talked about the niche, but what
I'm hearing are there are companiesnow that Mark, you remember that one
time, and I'm just making this up.
You remember that one time yougot pulled over, you got a ticket.
And, uh, as the police that gaveyou the ticket was driving away,

(46:18):
you gave him the big middle finger.
Well, well, somebody took a pictureof that, and I know you were only
18 at the time, but guess what?
Because of that, you're now seen asanti-police and consequently you are
not viable for advertising becauseof something you did forever ago.
There are companies, and I'm not makingit up, that are doing that and they
explain, I was listening to a show aboutadvertising and it, it was this company

(46:41):
explaining what they do and they havelike 20 different services that they use
to go and research, not just the podcast.
But the podcaster, so if youwore a shirt that was maybe not
something, you know, whatever.
And I was like, who, who wantsto step into a position where
you're just gonna get scrutinized?
So I'm worried about advertising.

(47:01):
I, I've listened to some popular podcastsand I've busted out the stopwatch and it's
30% and I'm like, look, radio's at 30%.
One of the reasons podcastingwas so popular in the beginning
was 'cause it wasn't radio.
So I'm worried that.
Some of us want to turn it backinto radio, and I'm like, no,
let's, let's avoid that, shall we?

Mark (47:23):
People get comfortable with what they're comfortable with.
That's, that's a sad fact.
And I think when money starts changinghands, people rely on what they know,
which can stifle, I don't like theword innovation 'cause I think it's
overused, but it can stifle genuine.
Innovation.
Alright my friend, listen, I willstick a pin in it right there.
I think we should do a follow up 'causewe could talk forever and I'd love to get
even more into the future of podcasting.

(47:46):
But I want to, I wanna ask whereare you gonna be in person?
'cause I think everyone in podcasting, I.
To be honest, I think everyone outsideof podcasting should meet Dave Jackson.
So where, where are you headed mate?
Where, what events are you at

Dave (47:56):
next?
I'm gonna be in Denver,uh, at Podcast Movement.
I'm going to be at anArkansas podcast, uh, event.
I just got that yesterday.
I'm gonna be speaking at Indie podcast.
That's Joe Pardo's thing in New Jersey.
Uh, and I'm gonna be in New Yorkat a, and this is sad 'cause I
don't remember the name of it.
It's a Christian thingthat just came up as well.

(48:19):
If you wanna see where I'm at, justgo to school at podcasting.com/where
and I'll have my schedule there.
Is Joe's event in the same

Mark (48:27):
place?

Dave (48:28):
It's in a different place.
He moved it and it's not the, andI love that event, by the way.

Mark (48:33):
I love that event too.
That was my staple event for ages, man.
I used to fly into Jerseyjust for that event.
I used to love it.
Ask Jess Cook Formanabout the chicken bus.
Next time you speak to a, I got from,I got from New York City to Joe's event
on a bus that I shared with chickens.
Someone did me a dirty theremate, I'll tell you that.
I think so, right?

(48:55):
That is enough of that chat.
Go and find Dave Jacksonanywhere you can find him.
He's an absolutely wonderful personand an absolute, absolute friend
to everyone in podcasting and amighty talent within our industry.
So Dave, thank you so much myfriend, and to you the ever
present, beautiful listener.
Keep on doing what you do, keepsharing your voice 'cause remember, it
does matter to those who follow you.

(49:16):
Keep doing it and I'llsee you on the next run.
Bye-bye.