Joe Vs The Covid Volcano

The right to freedom of expression is a basic human right. All other human rights are reinforced, allowing society to thrive and progress. The freedom to openly express ourselves and voice our minds is critical for societal transformation.But where do we draw the line if the thing we wish to say spreads disinformation and occasionally comes from those with influence? In this episode, Molly, Marcus and Adam discuss the recent issue of Joe Rogan and Neil Young on Spotify and what it means on freedom of expression, Obligations of Major Companies in handling information and moral responsibilities on true information.


📌Key Takeaways
✨Joe Rogan and Neil Young on Spotify Issue
✨Spotify Obligations as a medium of Good Information
✨Moral Responsibilities of Content Creators and Podcasting Platforms
✨Free Speech and Censorship on Podcasting

📌Key Quotes in the Episode:

📣“There should be guidelines on what true information and what misinformation is” - Molly

📣“We will disagree with our partners at some time, but identifying our beliefs and what is essential to us should be a requirement when doing podcasts, just as large corporations have values and mission statements.” - Marcus

📣“At its core, it's like the whole. That is the problem with the way we consume information and the way people listen to soundbites instead of listening to people. Yes, it's profundity.” - Adam

📌People Mentioned in the Episode


✔️Neil Young
✔️Joe Rogan
✔️R Kelly
✔️Alex Jones
✔️Howard Stern
✔️Bernie Brown

 

📌Terms Mentioned in the Episode

✔️1st Amendment - stipulates that Congress may not pass any legislation restricting or banning the free exercise of religion. It safeguards the freedoms of expression, the press, and assembly, as well as the right to petition the government for redress of grievances.

✔️Section 230 -  provides immunity for website platforms with respect to third-party content.

✔️PedalTrain - Pedaltrain is the premier innovation in guitar effects pedalboards.

 

📌Guests in This Episode:

🎙️Podcast Pro: Molly Ruland
What she does: Molly is the founder and CEO of Heartcast Media, a full-service podcast production company and content creation lab based in Washington, D.C.
www.heartcastmedia.com


🎙️Podcast Pro: Marcus dePaula
What he does: An audio engineer, podcast producer and website designer, Marcus runs Me Only Louder, a podcast production company in Franklin, Tenn.
www.meonlylouder.com


🎙️Podcast Pro: Adam Levin
 What he does: Adam is the manager of Chuck Levin’s Washington Music Center and is the founder of Podcast Outfitters, which specializes in podcast equipment.
https://podcastoutfitters.com/
https://chucklevins.com/

📌Time Stamps
⏲️[00:00] Pre-Introduction
⏲️[06:00] Introduction
⏲️[07:47] Spotify Responsibility as a medium for Information
⏲️[26:20] Free Speech 
⏲️[30:01] Influencers impact to their audiences 
⏲️[32:27] Moral Responsibilities of Major Companies
⏲️[52:44] Conclusion 


📌WANT SOME MORE? CHECK THIS OUT!!

📣“I always knew he was racist. India is a total badass!"
Omid Scobie on Twitter
✔️Spotify Removes R. Kelly, XXXTentacion Music From Its Playlists
✔️Rogan responds to Spotify protest, COVID advisories
✔️Rogan Apologizes. Spotify Posts Rules
✔️Brené Brown says she’s not going to release any new podcast episodes
✔️The Joe Rogan controversy is what happens when you put podcasts behind a wall

 

 

 

Recorded on Riverside.
Get hooked up today: https://heartcast.biz/3s24usy

Find on iTunes: http://heartcast.biz/38tmMe6

 

 

Episode Transcript

(00:14):
Cheers. That's right, I got. I definitely got to prepare for this
before before we begin tonight's episode ofthe podcast Club a Cordial cheers to everybody.
Yes, I'm drinking water because it'shot, and I was gonna say
it's not wine. That's better.Primarily that's the reason that I'm to step

(00:39):
away for a minute. I know, so if I disappear, that's probably
why. Hey's your light on?Your nice new light? It is.
But I was really sweaty, soI didn't want to like Aim and Emmy
too much. But I think I'vethere you go, there you go.
But now you can see our ridiculousI'm gonna go ahead and leave it on
mysterious. You know what I'm saying. I got that fresh from the airport

(01:03):
hair. Oh yeah, did youmake it back? Well? I I
just drove to the airport. Butum, driving to the airport in Cosa,
Rica like involves crossing like a riverand driving on the monkey trail where
you almost die at least three times. So, like, we need to
put links to those videos in theshow notes on Facebook that you posted.
It's like literally yeah, no,literally, You're like, I'm gonna and

(01:26):
then the weirdest part about making videosis that it increases your chances. I'm
dying like eighty percent and an Arnielike very deadly road. So I don't
do a lot of those videos anymore. But you actually have to cross a
river, which is cool. Yeah, crazy, and you're buying a house.
Can we say that publicly? Weekend? Yeah, that's Killer Man's Land.

(01:51):
Yeah. And the Earth, theEarth vious plot. It's like it's
it's something of a movie. Itis out of a movie. It's got
hydrange is the size of my head. Whoa. It has a pineapple tree,
a papye tree and banana trees.Nice. When the zombie apocalypse comes,

(02:12):
they're all coming. We're all coming, Molly the girls and weed do
make that happens, and weed andbuild a fence because when when it all
goes down, we're coming to yourplace. Seriously, all you need is
a boat. It'll take a minute, but we could walk. We could
get there. You could here.It'll take a lot of minutes, it'll
take a lot of just a couple, but we'll get there, right Yeah.

(02:32):
Man, super pumped about it.Man, It's it's it's just everything
just grows there because it rains oncea day, and so you know,
and and so you just everything.You're like, oh, that's a papie
tree. Like you know, likeI bought a plant recently, well a
few months ago, like an easterlily from them wherever I buy plants from.

(02:54):
And uh, I was sitting onthe porch one day and I was
looking at a plant. I waslike, there's something going out of that
plant. There's another plant growing outof the plant. So I downloaded that
Google picture it app and I aimedit at it and there was a papietry
growing on my easter lily. That'scrazy, that's you ever just gotten a

(03:15):
free paprietry at the story only inCosta Rica. I love Papia. Papious
don't just growing trees. They growon other trees, inside of other potted
plants. Apparently, how did thateven happen? But you know where that
papietree is going right now? It'sgotten about four feet tall because I unpotted

(03:36):
it from the other and gave itits own home. Announced about four feet
tall, and I'm gonna bring intothe new house nice near the other one.
That's right. So my free andproprietries are super cool. Looking they
grow, they look like five Gtowers. Who's getting that's for all,
that's just preparing us for the JoeRogan conversation. I'm just loving the track,

(03:58):
you know, I'm Sam five Gbaby. But yeah, they grow,
they look very different than a regulartree, but so they look super
They look like something to be growingin like Jordan, or like the Middle
East or something like. They're avery unique shaped leaf and a very weird
structured tree. All people that signup for Molly's professional consulting courses will get

(04:20):
a free papaya grown on her personalI will take pictures of it from personal
trees. You can sponsor a papayalike how people buy stars for their kids.
Hey, if you're enough of ajackass to buy a star for your
kid, you should also a sponsorof papaya. You can sell NFTs that
people will own a bit of yourpapia tree until you eat them, and

(04:44):
then you'll send them the pit thatthey can grow their own proprietry. There
you go, inception papaya nts loveit. It's the future papaia coin.
Seriously though, Wow, but yeah, crazy, I'm super excited. Well,
we'll have to do a podcast ClubLive show from from the Crib from

(05:05):
the Ram. Ye see yeah,acre and a half isn't that crazy?
That's crazy, that's silly. Acreand a half. That's like five times
what I have. I don't evenwant to tell you guys, I'm a
fan for it, but I willtell you this. I couldn't get a
parking space in Washington, DC forthe amount of money that I'm gonna pay

(05:26):
for that whole as beautiful paradise lookingcrazy plot of land with a beautiful house.
How's the internet though? How's theinternet? Fan? Fantastic? Good
good, Yes, I'm gonna paytwo hundred dollars a month for it,
and I don't care. Right,that's it. That's your like number one
business expense. That's right. Forfifteen mips or whatever it is. I

(05:48):
don't know. I don't know whatthat means. Maybe and it sounds important,
but I'll pay for it. Well, we've had our we've had our
nice sample in our cordials here.Let let's get to smacking ding ding ding
ding ding ding ding ding ding Roundone round. Let me get my chair,

(06:10):
round one. We need we needa card girl. I'll be the
card girl. I guess that's me, right, Adam, you didn't want
to talk about this. No,well, well we got to talk about
it. I think we're all goingto agree, I think by the end.
Yes, all right, I thinklet's go. I really do,
because I think we're all protectors offree speech, and so I think it's

(06:31):
how you skin this cat. Solet's let's tell the world what we're talking
about. Yes, Joe Rogan versusthe Volcano. Today is February first,
twenty twenty two, and we're beginningthe great Joe Rogan debate. The spot
of fight, A spot of fightthat's not originally mine, but we're saying
it is, all right, itis now poor man's copyright. Ebo Teras

(06:53):
said it in his thing. Allright, we like Evo. We like
Evo. That's fine, he isgreat. All Right, all right,
I pose the question, Yes,what is the question? All right,
Well, here's the great debate,right, Joe Rogan versus Willie Nelson.
Wait, no, no, no, Miili young. Which which one of
these old bastards was it? Wasit the racist one who called black people

(07:16):
by horrible things? Or was itthe one who was hanging out with drum
sig? Which old white guy wasit oh, Neil Younger, Yeah,
that one. Um he took hismusic off Spotify. Yep, So there's
that because because of his feelings thatJoe Rogan is spreading misinformation about COVID.

(07:38):
Yes, that is the topic athand. Well, well, I guess
the topic right. The bigger topicis like freedom of speech and censorship.
Spotify's obligation, what is right?What is Spotify's obligation as a medium that
allows Joe Rogan to portray this message? What is their obligation to the truth.

(08:01):
It's the same. It's the sameconversation that Facebook had to do a
while ago with all the news andeverything before you know, everything else,
and when all the platforms are allthe platforms, they're all they're blocking Spotifications
right right, and so it's timefor spot It's Spotify's turn. Well I
will say this. I do knowthat my crazy twenty two prediction is getting

(08:24):
truer and true every day. SoI am hyped when I see Spotify and
hot Water because like we thought itwas all joke like three weeks ago,
we look at my shit coming truemore and more everyday. It's it's recorded.
You can check out the other episode. We're only a month in down
there? How much stock on downfour dollion dollars? But whatever, Yeah,
yeah, I'm only right most ofthe time. So it's getting but

(08:46):
no, how crazy, it's reallycrazy. It's really crazy. So it
is here. Here's the thing,right, So this is my knee jerk
reactions. All of this is,and it's always going to be in defensive
women. I'm just annoying. Itjust feels like virtue signaling to me when
like everyone's like, oh, we'repulling our stuff up because Joe Rogan said

(09:09):
something we don't like. Well,Spotify is a platform full of like rapists
and pedophiles, and like R Kelly, who's like currently in jail, is
still making money off of his musicon Spotify, and like that's what this
is, right, This is allabout Spotify making money and they and they
don't have an obligation to do anythingbecause they're not public officials, and neither
is Joe Rogan and they they're notunder the same rules, right, and

(09:33):
so of course they're gonna make moneyjust like they make money off of R.
Kelly, just like they make moneyoff of I don't know, seventy
percent of the music business. Probablythen have some sort of like okay,
right, SODA's Apple, SODA's Google, Like I'm like they all do,
right, Like it's information, it'sout there, and what do they have

(09:54):
to gain advertising? And so JoeRogan's leg up is that he creates it's
a four hour album every day everyweek that Spotify can put ads on that
most people are going to listen to. And if Neil Young started producing four
hour albums every Friday that they couldslap a bunch of ads on, they
probably would have fought a little harderto keep him on there. But the
reality is Joe Rogan is creating morepossible revenue streams for Spotify than anybody else.

(10:20):
So one hundred million that they spentto get him is peanuts and it's
whatever. Also has nothing to dowith this greater conversation. I'm just on
a tangent right now. Well that'sit's part of that. There's so many
interesting facets to this though, Andthat's where my mind went was the money,
you know, the fact that Joeis the new like I feel like
it's the new the future bread andbutter for Spotify because that's where and you

(10:43):
disagreed with me because the music issuch a huge part of the platform.
That's where they're subscribers are there for. But the podcast advertising there is where
they're in the future. That's wherethey're going to make their most money compared
to the subscriptions. I feel like, question, let me ask a question.
Yes, Joe on YouTube. Yeah, but they've pulled YouTube has pulled

(11:05):
a lot of his episodes, dothey really? Yeah? Yeah, interesting,
but I thought they pulled him becausea spot off. I don't know,
I don't know the answer that question. A lot of it, Like
they pulled the Alex Jones stuff.They pulled a lot of the stuff that
that's just you know, wrong.Well, well, and so here here's
my here's my here's my thing.Right, Like to me, it feels

(11:26):
a lot like Dave Chapelle or likeyou want to you like, let's let's
insert like Howard Stern into the mix, right, like you know, it
wasn't the same woke era, likeand forgive me Howard Stern if you're still
in the radio. But I'm justsaying, like, you know, when
he was okay, when he wassuper prime time though, like nobody's like
expecting him to be like fair journalism. He's got like fucking strippers and shit,
Like Joe Rogan is in the sameboat to me, And like,

(11:50):
I don't think Joe Rogan himself ispushing that content, and he has conversations
with lots of different people, andhe also had conversations with like Biden's people
and like immunologists and stuff, andlike, I just I just feel like
and Joe Rogan put out a videothat was like, hey, you know,
sometimes we think things it's misinformation.Within six months later we find out

(12:11):
it's true, right, And He'sgot some points there, And like,
who gets to decide it's misinformation?Am I pro putting out information that you
know prevents people from wanting to getvaccinated? No? Definitely not. I'm
not pro Joe Rogan. I'm justlike, where's the line who decides that
what he's putting out is misinformation?And are we going off at headlines or

(12:35):
are we going off of what thecontent actually is? And like, I
don't know. Joe Rogan consistently saysI'm a guy who makes people who made
people eat horse brains on cowshit ontelevision, and I'm a stand up comedian,
So none of you should ever listento me. At all about any
opinion I have about anything, becauseI'm an idiot, and he has said

(12:56):
that repeatedly, and so I justfeel like it's some point when do you
believe him. That's That's part ofthe problem, though, is that there
are way too many people that dolike he's telling people. The biggest offense
that people that including me, takeoffense with is he is saying that young
people don't need to take the vaccine, and that potentially is getting people killed.

(13:20):
It may not kill the young people, but they may spread it to
their grandparents. So anything this islike, I'm totally with you with the
like censorship and all that stuff,and this is beyond that because we're in
the middle of a pandemic and thereare close to a million Americans that have
died, and so I ant likeas much as much as I don't respect

(13:43):
Neil Young because he is a totaljerk and and and you know, like
I did, got to tell thisquick side story. We opened for him
in Hong Kong. We did aone off from Japan to Hong Kong when
I was out with Michelle Branch andhis son was the stage manager, and
his son did not have nice thingsto say about his own father. That

(14:07):
tells you the type of person NeilYoung is. But he is the one
that initiated this discussion, and that'swhy I appreciate it, because he taking
a stand. And granted he alsohas a beef with Spotify because of his
hang up on the file fidelity stuff, which is complete horse manure, you

(14:30):
know, and whatever. But soI feel like there's multiple motivations on Neil's
side. But regardless, I'm gladthat somebody that matters, that could that
could have an impact in some waythat causes everybody to go, hey,
whoa what something's going on here?Is causing us to talk about this because

(14:52):
this needs to be talked about.Yes, Joe Rogan presents himself as a
bound balanced person. He is not. He is not a balanced opinion person,
like like, look at the guests, Look look at the guests he
has on So I mean, dude, he's had. Dude, he's recorded

(15:15):
like six thousand episodes or something likeliterally, So here's the thing he's done
an elected official, right, ButI don't have responsibility to anything. He
doesn't. He That's that this isthe this is a core issue. Joe
Rogan does not have responsibility who hasresponsibility to Spotify. Spotify has banked rolled

(15:35):
his show, and they are theones that are promoting this information that the
scientific community says is not helpful toending the pandemic. Yeah, but like
I have, I have no I'mnot gonna get too opinions yet, but
like, yeah, Fox News isout there, right, I mean,
they're they're on, They're on.They're on not cable news, that is

(15:58):
public access right use radio waves.And so it does do the do the
antennas that distribute these these things havean obligation to the people that maintain the
antennas have an obligation to turn thatshit off. Where does it end,
which is the federal government. Solike you would think they would, there's
there's a there's a layer to itthat makes it very complex. Yes,

(16:22):
absolutely, I think I I inall honestly, I have never watched a
Joe Rogue and experience and its entiretybecause I just don't have a million hours
to watch it. I've been curious, but I have not. Sometimes you
latch little clips in your laugh andsometimes you're like, oh, that's an
interesting thing. Or he talks aboutaliens and I'm like wow, that's kind

(16:45):
of interesting that you're talking about thisout there like they are real, And
maybe they are, I don't know, But then I'm just going to say
this publicly too. He is nota smart person. He may not be.
He brings out a wide variety ofpeople onto these things and exposes a
bazillion people to all kinds of crazyass shit, and it's entertainment, you

(17:10):
know, at its core. Um, whether that is an you know,
an episode of any like TV showsdo this shit too, you know what
I mean. Like some people lookup, okay, is about Dexter.
Dexter is about a severe killer,you know what I mean? And he's
the hero, Like is that agood thing? Do we idolize the hero?

(17:30):
This is the same you guys arecomparing this to stuff that now.
Now, now let me roll backfor one second. I very much think
that the vaccinations are a phenomenally goodthing and everybody should be vaccinated one hundred
million percent. At my company,we are doing a vax or test policy.
Everybody either must report that they're vaccinated, and if you are not vaccinated,

(17:52):
which is your own personal choice,then you must tell us every single
week that you have tested negative withoutquestion. Every single week, and if
you don't send it in your testbefore you come into work, you must
go home. That's how we're approachingit, regardless of whether the OSHA says
you must or whatever. And I'vehad people say, um, Osha says
you don't have to do this yet, and I said, that's fine.

(18:12):
We are because we think this isthis and it's your company. Yeah,
and it's private company, and wecan do as we please. This is
not a requirement. You can leave. You have your own right to do
what you please to do. That'stotally within your right. But this is
what we believe is right to doto protect everybody. And say similarly,
I don't have a brick and mortar, but I am also very provax.

(18:33):
Just so with that's out in theright atmosphere, I am not more talking
right, we're talking about the theuh the um. It's public health risk
that that's at stake here I feeltalking about. I mean, I don't
well diet pills or a public helder. I mean like, yeah, you

(18:56):
know, but so so. Buthere's the thing. Here's the thing though,
it is because Spotify is a privatecompany, there's I have no problem
with them continuing to push Joe Rogan'sstuff like they choose to do that.
But here is my struggle, andI've and I have struggled with this,

(19:17):
not just with what products I use. I don't use Spotify, I never
have because I've never appreciated how muchthey they skimp out on taking care of
musicians. They do not pay musicianswell for the amount of effort that goes
into that audio content. I amglad they're buying into podcasting because that's my
business now, and I respect themfor that. But there are clients of

(19:41):
mind that I have chosen to stopworking with. There are jobs I have
not taken because of stances that theymake. And this is a stance that
Spotify is taking with Joe Rogan tohelp him promote the stuff. Wherever you
stand on if he's actually promoting antivax stuff whatever, people are believing it

(20:02):
and it needs to at least havea warning label on it, just like
a pack of cigarettes like this isnot necessarily that's what Facebook, anything that
mentions the word COVID or Instagram onTwitter and right, they all say that,
right, and Spotify is can startdoing that now. Thanks to Neil
Young, so Joe Rogan said that, like, he's totally cool with that,
he has no problem with that,and he would appreciate that happening and

(20:23):
that he'll do for more effort intolike making sure the diversity is there,
and he's following up with differing opinionsright away. What way the way that
it bothers me and the reason whyI really do not like his show so

(20:44):
much is there are so many brosout there that are and like I've heard
this from multiple women friends, especiallyhere in the South, where they are
using what they have heard on JoeRogan's podcasts with these doctors that have been
band from Facebook and other social mediaplatforms because the lies they're telling about COVID

(21:04):
and vaccines. They are regurgitating thestuff they hear on Joe. They're taking
those sound bites and whether or notJoe Rogan's intent is to spread that information,
this is what's happening and he,in my opinion, should do a
better job of quantifying that. Butif he doesn't, that that's up to
him. That's you know, thething about people taking the sound bite and

(21:27):
misconstruing it is tough because that happenswith everything, right, Like you can
take the headline and read the headlineor not. It's a substance. And
so like that's very hard to blameJoe Rogan. But somewhere with great response
or with great power, comes greatresponsibility. You know, they're fair.
But he's got our millions of listeners. He is not a good role model.

(21:48):
I just I don't know, foryears listening to our presidency, shit
like grab her by the pussy andso like, honestly, I'm just saying,
don't I just wish people got aboutme being like talked about and like
I I you know, like sameselective morality to me, honestly, you
know, it's like it feels likebullshit to me, you know, But

(22:11):
it's the same crowd listening half thepoliticians you have half the politicians you I
mean, you got a lot ofthings out there when they have when the
sound bites come out and they putthem on the news Jewish space laser,
but you got one you got onenews station that spends it one way,
and you got one news station thatspends it another bite. And so I
think it's core. It's like thewhole the whole thing is that's the problem

(22:34):
with just the way we consume mediaand the way humanity takes sound bites instead
of yes, the depth of it, yes, and you can't and considering
the source and context and all that. Fortunately you can teach it in school,
but you can't make sure that allpeople actually are well researched. And
like the caveat that is underneath anews a little snippets says, by the

(22:59):
way, this is thirty seconds ofa full conversation where they actually say the
opposite of this, but they saidthis one word, and so we're gonna
take that as it is. That'sit's impossible. I wish it was.
I wish it was possible. Man, my life would be easier. Look,
we can bring this back to bringthe podcast for a second, because
let's take one real bring us backto a common theme we have here.

(23:22):
Um. Nice, nice, wecan bring it up a common theme here.
Um. The entire podcasting community thinksthat the blue yetti is a good
microphone. Yes, um, Andyet we cannot let's say this, we
cannot insert text boxes underneath it thatI'll say, by the way, this
microphone sucks balls. But I meaneveryone can I say this SoundBite blue the

(23:45):
blue Yettie is the Joe Rogan ofmicrophones, good night, everybody, good
night, thank you, debate overmic drop and we're out cut it.
That's it, that's awesome. Thatwas a great statement. I disagree because

(24:06):
Joe Rogan has one hundred million dollarsin the bank and yet he got Blue
Scott. They probably make a prettypenny on those microphones. That probably cost
him five cents to get from tryingto stupid logic. I want to hear
it anyway, I like, butI like old Joe Rogan. I haven't
listened to what Joe Rogan podcast inlike four years. So honestly, if

(24:30):
I listen to when he talks aboutaliens, I like him less when he
talks about health. Yeah, yeah, and and I just feel like,
you gotta also recognize that that's thesame guy, you know what I mean,
And so like, yeah, hisbrains all fucking rattled, you know
what I mean. Like, butyou know, I just think, d
it's a bigger picture, and like, listen, I don't know. The

(24:52):
more you know what you know whatit really is, the more the less
time I spent living in the UnitedStates, the less I am wound up
about what should happen Because I feellike we were sold this lie and we
all played the game, and weplayed the rules, and we took the
sacrifice, and we went to collegeand we took the job, and we
bet on security, and we alwaysthought that the right thing would happen,

(25:15):
but it just didn't. And thenwatch Trump just break all the rules and
station out loud, like you know, and we've just keep it getting bewildered
by like how things are supposed tobe. And I think that, like
I'm upset about everything too, andthen the other side of me is like
I just also can't care anymore,and I feel like I just feel like

(25:37):
I don't know, man, whenyou start censoring people like Joe Rogan instead
of really attacking the major issue,which is like a lack of education,
and like maybe maybe Spotify should beresponsible for funding every United States education board
of a couple hundred million dollars andthat's because that's the real problem. I
was just talking about this with myfriend. We're all yelling at each other
about fucking stupid shit words and namesand things. We should be focused on

(26:00):
how we're treating each other, andwe're fighting each other instead of the systems
in place and it just feels likeanother example like fuck Joe Rogan. But
the bigger picture is its censorship andwho gets to decide what's information and what's
misinformation and who gets to decide what'sreal and how do we know that the
government? I mean, you know, but you know, there's it's it.

(26:22):
This is the most complicated conversation becauseyou you know, you you say
free speech and you say um,which again like yes, like you know,
but then you have people that willgo out and say that um,
making people get vaccinated is like NaziGermany and right, well, but they
can say that and they are theythey just they shouldn't say that. But

(26:48):
like where to filter it? Youknow, It's like it's like, what's
the what's the logic tree to I'mnot saying I I'm saying f that shit.
And yeah, I think the filteringis they lose their jobs, they
suffer in their real time because thereality is freedom of speech covers that jerk
and that you let the doulation decide, right, But then but then you

(27:11):
get into a January sixth situation.But this is the thing with the First
Amendment stuff. There that the FirstAmendment applies to the government it does not
apply to private businesses. But Spotifyis not making a statement. Spotify is
just hosting the radio wave in whichthen statement is being delivered to right and

(27:33):
you got, but it's not there. It's hold on. It's not Spotify's
job to enforce the First Amendment.It's the United States Government's job to enforce
the First Amendment when it applies tostuff that they have control over. They
have control over how Spotify pays itstaxes, how it operates its business,
that sort of thing. They donot have license to censor. The government

(27:57):
doesn't have license to censor spot IfI's content, it's it is up to
Spotify, And that, to meis the point that because Spotify chooses to
allow this stuff to go unanswered,that is why I choose to not trust
them as a company and not relyon them as a business. Now I'm

(28:19):
not removing my shows from there,but sorry, but you mentioned, like
um relating this to r Kelly convicted, Yes, felon still making money on
Spotify right now, right and AppleMusic and YouTube and it makes me and

(28:41):
and James R. Kelly, Imean whatever, I'm not even gonna start
listening. That's terrible. I'm justsaying devil dad if we could hear like
I'm just saying like it's out there, and it's like it's I'm not saying
I agree, and I agree whenI say, like song that you loved
and it comes on, you're like, oh wow, this probably doesn't shouldn't

(29:03):
be played right now? Yeah,Like it's you know, and look,
Joe Rogan's under under fire because hehas a Brazilian listeners every single week.
There's probably a thousand other podcasts thatare the same thing, a thousand but
them Spotify is not paying them ahundred million dollars and they are not producing

(29:26):
their show. That's the difference.This is the difference. They get paid
even from minuscule from podcasts. Don't. Don't they get paid through streams or
no if the subscribers. But rightnow there is no indications to take let's
take a past from increase their subscribers. Rappers, you got musicians, You've

(29:47):
got people talking about singers, whatwhoever? It is, metal, rap,
electronic music, talking about all kindsof unsavory shit, and they get
paid for streams regardless of the contentthey show. Rode is is the flagship
like he is, he has becomeone of the faces of spot Spotify podcasting,

(30:08):
So it it says something that likehe is basically speaking a lot for
the company, whether they like ornot, just because of how much money
they have. And it's the samewith any of the big artists, Like
it's the same thing with the recordlabel. You know, what is what
is? What does that say aboutthe record label that r Kelly you know

(30:30):
is signed to? So same thing. The I feel like it relates to
that that interaction you had with Garyv in twenty one tem and it's an
interest. It was an interesting exchangebecause what was it that he there was

(30:52):
a list published that was like,oh, Gary Vu talks this way,
has had vain or me donated atthe Trump campaign. He interacts with companies
that directly support the Trump campaign,and Vainer Media donated to the Trump campaign,
and he's like, I'm not theonly investor in Vainermedia. So so

(31:14):
when one of the investors donates toTrump, it gets put under our thing.
It wasn't me directly, but he'sthe face of the organization and it
does reflect on him because he's partneringwith those people to run his business.
That impacts a lot of people.Yes, But what his response was,
I hear you, but you wantto devest in everything that's corrupt, will

(31:37):
close your bank account and turn offyour internet and close your cell phone account
because exactly. And this is theproblem that I struggle with daily. And
that's what I'm saying. I'm nottrying to tell people how to think.
This is. This is the strugglethat I'm having. It's a problem to
discuss. It's good. It's goodto I mean just mention that it's the
problem. I mean, you mentionedthat the situation with having issued with how
people manufacture goods into ferent country laborlaws and stuff like that. Good luck

(32:02):
not buying something that's ever touched Chinaexactly, or any other third world country
that uses cheap labor to manufacture sneakersor microphones. You're hard pressed to find
any microphone manufacturer on the planet thatdoes not get a component from China that
they need and good luck. Soit's a very hard world to manage that

(32:25):
conversation. And that's that's how Iwanted to tie this into how what can
we take away from this whole mess? You know, because yes, we
can get all fired up and enterthe argument you know, like we have
already, but how does this impactus as podcasters? How does this impact
us as business people? And forme, it is that thing of how

(32:47):
do I choose? Where's that linewhen I want to decide whether or not
I want to work with somebody becauseof who they've sponsored, what they posted
on social media, you know allthat stuff. And I struggle with that
daily if I want to have themas a guest on a podcast or if
I want, like when a clientof mine. This is something I fear

(33:07):
daily because I still work for oneconservative podcast when they have a specific guest
on when am I going to say, I'm not editing this episode because I
don't, you know, agree withthe content. So that's the thing that
this whole experience is making me thinkabout, is who you're partnering with.
And obviously we're going to all ofus are going to disagree on something at

(33:30):
some point, but it's figuring outwhat our values are, what's important to
us. And you know, asentrepreneurs we need to do a better job
because the big corporations have values,they have mission statements, all that stuff.
So I feel like we probably needto do that for podcasts too,
Right, this would help us havea standard to go by that would that

(33:51):
would help define that line if weif we set those values, and obviously
they can change over the years,just like Joe Rogan's content has changed over
the years since it's gotten older,you know, so it's it's not like
it's set in stone, but itall this stuff has just made me think
a lot about that, Like whoam I choosing to partner with? And

(34:15):
you know, we disagree on whetheror not we like Joe Rogan, but
I'm still partnering with you guys becauseof all of the other stuff, Like
that's that so far. I feellike that's the one thing that we disagree.
Well, I mean, here's thething. I don't necessarily like Joe
Rogan. But what I like isfree speech and I don't like censorship.
And I think that like it's aslippery slope, and like who gets to

(34:36):
decide that? And as content creators, especially for myself, where my you
know, I'm focused on the democratizationof information. That has been my go
to you know, slang for ahot minute, and listening is a revolution.
And when you listen to people whodon't look and sound and feel the
same way as you, that's whenthe real growth happens. And so I'm

(34:57):
here for all of it as longas they're not an elected effish, as
long as they're not in control oftax dollars, and like Joe Rogan is
not in control of either one ofthose things. So I don't really give
a fuck what he wants to talkabout, and I think that he should
be protected to do so. Andif Spotify wants to work with him,
and people don't like that, thendon't use Spotify, use Title or iHeart
Radio or whatever. Like, Ijust can't from as a woman who's constantly

(35:22):
reminded of our value almost doesn't matterand that we're just totally like we just
have to swallow the fact that we'resurrounded by people who are rapists and pedophiles
and all that. Like for me, it's like, you know what I
mean, it just sort of remindsme of how important we are. Because
nobody got their panties in a bunchabout boycotting anybody, and there's a whole

(35:43):
bunch of pedophiles and rapists and predatorson that site. Nobody got all upset
about it before, but now allof a sudden it matters. It feels
like performative. It feels like moralselectivity, and it feels like, you
know, once again, women arejust being reminded that we're just keep getting
pushed back to the you know whatI mean. Like, so it's okay
for rapists to be on Spotify,but it's not okay for Joe Rogan,

(36:06):
a guy who, like, Imean, Joe Rogan like as far as
we know at least, hasn't rapedanybody, Like, yeah, he's not
the president, So like, Ijust don't care what he says at all.
And I think there's always gonna bestupid people. Like my grandma used
to say, for every crooked pot, there's a crooked lid, And I
think Joe Rogan got a hold leaningon the market full of crooked lids,

(36:29):
you know what I mean. SoI just don't think it matters, you
know, because that anti vax misinformationcan be found in a million other places
too, So it's not like JoeRogan is the only he's not got that,
he doesn't have the nft of everyfucking COVID misinformation thing out there.
And he's also interviewed amazing people whoare like not anti vax. So it's

(36:53):
like, okay, well how's thatwork. That's another what you said about
the whole women thing, and theother thing that's something else, like I
mentioned before, I struggle with andthat's the other thing. I'm really grateful
about this whole thing that you broughtthat up, and this presents the opportunity

(37:14):
for us to talk louder about thatproblem, which is not directly related to
it. But why the hell aretheir record labels still choosing to work with
R Kelly? Why exactly? Andwe're putting profit above people, I know,

(37:36):
But you know, look it goes. You could you could look at
any of the you could look atGoogle, you can look at Amazon,
you can look at Amazon. Allthese companies that are always under fire about
they have a platform that's so bigthat they have a moral responsibility to do
these things. Amazon, you know, Amazons under fire because they make products
that they see as being um extremelyprofitable and so they make their own clone

(38:02):
of the product or sell it better. Yeah, but you know what,
that's been going on for a trillionbazillion years and it's business. And you
know what you did. You decidedto sell on Amazon's platform. Yes,
you could have sled it on yourown website and not done that and done
it your own way, and Amazonwould not have your data. But you
took the easy way and you decidedto sell it through Amazon and take benefit

(38:23):
of their traffic that they put moneybehind on the platform they built. And
so now they saw that it sellsreally well, and so you are all
they are also going to make somethingthat competes with you, and you can
do better and market better than themor not. And so like it's you
can market better than Amazon. Youknow who's who's at fault there? You

(38:45):
could have sald it yourself, youknow what I mean? Do I believe
that that the action that Amazon doesis nefarious? I do. I think
that that using data that they're privyto to make something better at a lower
cost and using their buying power isnot it's unsaved. But is it,
like is it worth shutting them down? For Well? I could do that.

(39:06):
I can do it on eBay.I can go find what people sell
on eBay this something better, andI can do it cheaper, and I
can if I'm going to put themoney behind it and fucking do it,
you know. But a good exampleof this is a friend of mine.
I'm sure, you're Adam familiar withpedal train. My friend who I used
to tour with with DC Talk startedthat in his garage. He went,

(39:28):
he went to China. He founda manufacturing place to make it. It's
just a metal grid to put yourpedals on, and he did his best
to patent stuff. I mean,it's it's not it's not super complicated.
But Guitar Center started ripping him offand he chose to stop doing business with
Guitar Center. He and and thenAmazon, so Amazon was his main thing,

(39:50):
but then also through his website.So he's fighting that retail fight that
I'm sure you are as well.You know, try trying to make a
living with all of these these guysthat aren't playing fair, these large corporations
that just aren't playing fair, andyou know what, he ends up selling
his business. And I don't blamehim, you know, because it's just
too much life, man. Butlike that's what I'm saying, that's what

(40:13):
I'm saying it on the flip sideof it, and it's like that's what
i'm saying, nothing last forever,and that's where we need to be cautious
that that's what I'm saying, LikeThis whole thing has made me think hard
about all of this stuff that we'vetalked about, not just about you know,
the free speech thing, not justabout who we're partnering with, not

(40:35):
just about you know, competitive competitionor where we take our money from all
that. You know, there's somany facets to this that we can learn
from. And and I'm grateful tohave this opportunity to hang out with you
guys and talk through the stuff becauseI'm still processing it, and I'm still
going to be processing it for yearsto come as the next thing comes out,
you know, because it's not over. You know, I'm sure there's

(40:57):
there's going to be something else.Like I'd sent you guys a link right
before we started recording. About BreneeBrown's response because she's on Spotify. Jesus
stunter. I love Brenee Brown.I read all our books, but she
can just well so she her.You need to read her Instagram posts because
hers is the best response I haveseen so far, because she is not

(41:17):
She didn't say I am leaving Spotifybecause you know, they've paid her.
I think somebody estimated fifteen million dollarssomething like that to put her show on
there. So she's not Joe Roganlevel, but she's still you know,
but what she's what she did?Pants sued off, Well, hold on,
can I finish? Can I finishedtalking? Please? I really respect

(41:40):
what she said, because she saidthat that she decided not to release episodes,
and she announced she wasn't releasing episodesthat were scheduled to be released that
people are expecting because she wanted tostop and have a conversation. Now,
I wish she had told people upfront that she was, what her motivations
were and what she was doing.But of course all the haters, all

(42:05):
of the conservative dingbats that love totroll people online or saying I'm burning all
your books, I'm you know,I'm this and that, and it's like,
well, you don't even know whatshe's doing. All she said is
she's just not releasing anything this week. She might really and she is releasing
it. She's worked like, she'sbeen having conversations. She's clarifying what like

(42:27):
what we said. But she says, I'm reading it right now. She
says, I've had hundreds of commentsacross social media asking my opinion on the
issue. I didn't know enough tocomment, but I didn't want to or
drop new episode podcast episodes without respondingto the question. So I decided to
hold my podcast and learn yes,no, see. I think what happened
is she was like, yeah,that's messed up. I'm not gonna,

(42:51):
you know, release any more episodesthan you know. She's getting a bunch
of backlash, and she's like,oh, well, you know, like
that just feels like backbeddling to me. And it's probably as the Spotify lawyers
were like, oh, yeah,you're not gonna You're not gonna drop any
more episodes. I respect her convictionbecause I she said she doesn't even have
an opinion on it, and shecouldn't even know enough to comment, but

(43:13):
she knew enough to announce the entirefucking world that she wasn't going to do
anymore because she felt so strongly aboutthe issue. But she can't even hasn't
doesn't even have a formulated thought yet. No, that's stunting for the Graham.
Dude, that is straight for thembecause you don't even have an opinion
about it. This to me,I relate to her because lone Brown,
because I feel like this is ohshit. I decided to put all my

(43:37):
eggs in Spotify's basket and did Imake a wrong decision and do I need
to reevaluate this? That's what she'ssaying. And so she's evaluating and having
a conversation with her business partner insteadof making a rash decision and releasing publicly,
Fuck you guys, I'm out ofhere. Podcast has nothing to do
with Spotify or any of that.Shit is about fucking courage and bravery and

(44:00):
shit, and those episodes for exclusivelyalready recorded, and so those podcasts wouldn't
have anything to do about Joe Rogan. She was like just being reactive and
saying I'm not releasing any more episodes, and like now she's like, okay,
well, I'm just covering my ass. And I didn't know, and
I don't I feel like if you'regoing to make a public statement and say

(44:22):
I am not releasing this content becauseI have a stance on this, and
then to say a couple of dayslater, actually I haven't formulated my stance
yet. Like then, why shenever said she has a stance. All
she said is she's just not releasingany episodes. And that's where people jump
to conclusions. And that's that's theother thing that I'm that I'm looking at.
Here is how many of our audiencemembers read, read from their own

(44:46):
context between the lines, and sowhen we don't say something that gives them
license to make up whatever they wantand put and that's that's what you're doing.
I mean, that's exactly what you'reliterally reading her social media. It
posed on Instagram. I'm literally readingit, she says said on January twenty

(45:06):
night, I posed it across thesocial media that I would not be releasing
any podcast until further notice. That'sall she said. But you said,
because she said, I didn't wantto drop new podcasts without responding to the
question, so I decided to holdmy podcast and learn more. Listen,
Lusen, we can agree to disagree. I love Renee Brown, but she
fucked up right there, so Idisagree. And there you have it.

(45:30):
You know, I mean, Ithink that I think this is healthy discussion.
I think, well, I thinkthat the whole thing is, like,
you know, this is not thefirst time that there's been a hot
button topic where someone's come out andsaid something very controversial in a publicly available
platform to bazillions and trillions of people, and it's been responded to. I
think it's just a continuing conversation andone that there's really like obviously we've been

(45:53):
around this for forty minutes, fortyfive minutes, Like there's no clean answer.
There is not get into this worldof like, well, where do
you draw the line? Because thenyou get into shiit like look not you
go back to the Holocaust shit,you know what I mean? Like it's
like, where's the line drawn towhat's reasonable? What who's the arbiter of
what's a reasonable We have a weall three have a fairly you know,

(46:16):
straight arrow like moral center where weall believe that what's right is right and
what's good is good. And Iwould trust any of you to determine what's
right is what and what's good isgood. But like the who's the person
behind the scenes that decides what's rightis right and what's good as good?
That ends up being a very slipperyslope if you decide that it's an individual
or a company even and even ifyou get into the world of like,

(46:38):
you know, decentralize this and we'reall going to make the right decisions because
it's going back to last week's podcast, would you should listen to by the
way, too into the podcast.Do that even in a in a in
any decentralized world where the community hasum has a say in what goes down,

(47:00):
who's to say that the community isright? Okay, So here's an
example. We voted Trump to president. I didn't, but that is the
core of the problem. You're exactlyright. So here's a perfect example.
I feel like that, like outsideof rogun Outside if there was a podcast

(47:22):
that all of a sudden Spotify startedproducing imaginary podcasts and the person on that
show started talking about how the Holocaustnever happened or it wasn't as big of
a deal. Would you appreciate therebeing a warning that some of the information
in this podcast may not be factual. How would you expect the corporation that

(47:45):
is that is funding that show toput it out there? How would you
expect them to respond to that?There's probably already a podcast out there that
says, but it's not being paidone hundred million dollars. So should every
black person like be upset with Hollywoodand television for how they've portrayed black people?

(48:06):
Like where like like books, absolutelyabsolutely think I think that I just
I The answer is that, um, no one I don't think humans are
qualified to actually do this. Idon't think that, like I don't.
You don't think humans can say,hold on, this did actually happen.
You don't think that we can correctthat the company that owns the process,

(48:30):
that they can say there is stuffin here that is not true historically.
You know, I look, II would like to see that happen.
I'm just saying that. The conversationquickly becomes, well, who's to say
that this that this had happened,this had happened, This isn't happened.
Okay. I's saying like it's avery hard thing to where where, but

(48:52):
it needs to happen. It needsto happen, just like with the creative
race or hum the race theory stufflike it's going on in Tennessee. Here
they're trying to ban it from beingtaught in schools, and I am angry
taught about Well, they're wanting toban additional stuff like they don't want to
teach even Martin Luther King Junior.They want to remove all that stuff from

(49:14):
history, you know, And it'sit's and that's the thing you're saying that
whoa, this is way too muchlike what I'm hearing you say, and
I don't think you're saying this,but what I'm hearing you say is who
is who is to say what's rightand wrong? And that's the thing.
There has got to be a line. There has to be a line.
The Holocaust happened, Yes, vaccineswork, And for me, I don't

(49:37):
want to do business. I don'twant to associate myself with companies that are
saying otherwise period. Well as apodcaster, Well, and here's the thing.
I think that's what it boils downto, its individual decisions and like
exactly our voices are really you know, tightly connected to our wallets and is
like like Amazon, And that's whatNeil Young did, Like do you do

(49:59):
you have Amazon web services sift throughsome of this and like shut shit down?
Like and look, there are obviouslylines that have been drawn, right,
They shut down kittie porn websites,they shut down like like murder for
higher websites, Like, yeah,there are some things that they have shut
down. There's a precedent for that. Let me just say too, because

(50:20):
I'm just realizing this that it's justoccurring to me. While I respect the
fact that what Neil Young did startedthis conversation. I do not agree with
the ultimatum that he gave Spotify thevoid. The ultimatum was you either get
Joe Rogan or you get Neil Young. So he was telling that it was

(50:40):
and he didn't have any problem followingthrough with it. But I don't agree
with giving ultimatums like that. Now. I like the opportunity to start conversations
and saying, let's talk about this, But did it need to have that
either you have Joe Rogan removed,or either you have some kind of a
statement released or at least a specificepisode, not the other. The other

(51:06):
thing is, is Neil Young goingto go back now that they are going
to do something like that and tohead spot head Spotify never bought Joe Rogan,
and Joe Rogan was available on allplatforms. Always, would we have
the same conversation. We wouldn't.We definitely would not if he was still
in the now making money based offof these platforms, allowing him to say

(51:30):
the same thing and add revenue andthey pay him because thens or whatever,
Because then Neil Young would have togo against Apple, He'd have to go
against everybody's Spotify. He can't removehis music from everywhere. But forget Neil
Young for a second. The conversationremains. That that the distinction, that
the decision to allow that conversation tohappen on a platform that you monitor,

(51:53):
that you benefit from his content beingon You bet your ass that Apple Music,
like an Amazon whatever and all theseother things would love to have Joe
Rogan's podcast back on their ship becausehe brings he brings people. What if
Young is a double agent when he'sworking with Rogan? Oh my god,

(52:15):
reservoir dogs. If nothing else,it was a brilliant pr stunt for Neil
Young because I'm sure his listens arethrough the roof now on all the other
platforms he got that love the spotIt's right serious, thirty to sixties,
like Neil Young still alive, exactly, People over sixties. What's a podcast?

(52:37):
What's Spotify? Yeah, yeah,that's exactly and that I love you
guys. This is a great conversationand this this is the kind of stuff
I want to talk about, Likethis is the stuff I don't. I
love talking about mikes, but thisis a deeper shit that as human beings
that you gotta take a standman,Well, it's just this is what makes

(52:58):
me feel alive, you know,It's like human conversation. It's been a
great conversation, and it's also interesting. I think it's probably one of the
first times that a podcast I knowhas been the source of something so controversial,
right, I mean, like you'vehad popular podcasts, but like,
it's a great time to be apodcast. It is interesting if we just

(53:22):
we rounded out here that podcasting wasthe medium through which this ridiculous conversation took
over the world for a week.That's what I started the conversation with.
I think it's the core. Ithink it's cool we all care about the
same thing because this is the podcast. Then yes, I think the end

(53:43):
of the round, I think thatis a fine thing, fine way to
resolve that conversation for today. Iguess that was solid. I feel enthused.
I feel I feel drunk, Ifeel exhalusted, but I also feel
um satisfied. Hi do too.Thank you, Yes, thank you for
having this discussion with me. Guys, I appreciate it. Cheers. This

(54:20):
podcast was produced by heartcast Media.