Finding Hope: Conversations on Mental Health and Suicide Prevention / Guests Deborah Charman and Brian Wardale (Ep. 66)

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(01:36):
Alright. Hey, folks.
Welcome.
This is Joe Roos. It is great to be with you once again
for another episode of the podcast. And we are coming to you live tonight from the asylum studios,
from the pimple on the backside of Texas,
the beautiful city of Eagle Pass.

(01:58):
Folks,
it is fantastic to be with you again. It's another night. It's a Tuesday night here. And we have
have a really, really good show set up for you today. Tonight, we are going to sit down with and have a conversation with Deborah
Charmin
and Brian
Wardale. And if you don't know who they are, you're gonna find out exactly who they are

(02:20):
in just a few moments. But first, before we do anything else, they're already in the waiting room, so let's run through the, usual housekeeping,
and then we'll, we'll bring them on in. Alright. So folks, just don't forget to head over to our website,
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(03:08):
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(07:16):
say goodbye to a couple of the,
folks that are watching on,
let's see. Where are we? Well, you know what? Let me do this
because
that little window's blocking what I'm doing.
So we will,
kiss off to
we'll say goodbye to Twitch.
Alright.
That's what we'll do.

(07:37):
And
what
do we do? Okay. There we go. Alright. So, with that said, we're going to bring our guests in. And, as soon as they clock on in here, we'll, we'll get on with our our chat. This is really exciting. Looking forward to this.

(07:58):
So, again, we are welcoming,
Deborah
Charmin, a certified
health care aide, also a certified
suicide first aid,
person, and then, also a published author, a philanthropist, teen suicide, attempted suicide.
The, she's the oldest of three. She was raised in a very rural farming area in Pennsylvania.

(08:19):
And,
Deborah survived all dimensions of abuse, meaning emotional, physical, and spiritual. And she has a book out there that you'll be able to, check out.
And, she'll talk about that once, once they turn their camera on and they, jump on here with us.
Alright. I guess they're not ready. There we go.

(08:40):
Brian?
Hi. Sorry.
Here.
Let me let me
make sure
I think she was waiting till quarter
quarter after the hour.
But,
yeah.
Hi. Thank you for having me on the show. Well, it's great to have you here. So, Bryant, so while we're waiting for Deborah to come on, why don't you tell us a little bit about your story? I read a little bit about it, and it's a it's a very interesting story and something that, I think a lot of people should, should hear.

(09:14):
Yeah. Absolutely.
Well,
yeah, I would agree.
I think it's something a lot of people need to hear.
Let me get my
a little higher on the camera.
But,
yeah, I mean, I,
I attempted suicide back in 2019,

(09:35):
by jumping
and,
you know, sort of fell down,
went crunch.
I'm very happy that I survived.
My depression
had been lying to me. I've suffered from depression all my life,

(09:55):
as far back as I remember.
But,
it was I had been a caregiver for my mother for
about five years at that point after my dad had a very bad stroke,
left him in a nursing home,
physically

(10:17):
impaired and
impaired his cognition
as well. So even if he had been
physically able to come home, it would have been dangerous.
But so I,
you know, did a lot taking care of my mom,
and

(10:37):
that
I had kind of felt always having always struggled with feelings of self worth and what my value was.
I found, like, this is my purpose.
And then in 2019,
after,
you know,

(10:59):
lack of energy,
you know, and and
some
worsening health, mom was diagnosed with terminal cancer.
She had
was first diagnosed with cancer about ten years previous to that and had

(11:19):
through a few operations
and,
chemotherapy,
fought it off. That was great. She had been cancer free for years,
and it came back with a vengeance. And by the time they found it, it was
inoperable,
two weeks for chemo,
and I felt like I had just had the legs cut out from underneath,

(11:43):
which is sort of a bad pun because I ended up losing
my right leg at the knee as as a result of my suicide attempt.
But yeah.
So it was tough. But then,
you know, after my suicide attempt, the way my friends and family really circled around me,

(12:04):
they loved me without judgment
and
told me about times that I had made a difference in their lives
that I,
you know,
barely recalled. Like, oh, well, you
know, that it was that significant, and, yes, it was.

(12:26):
So
Alright. I think deal. I think Deborah's, checking in. So let's,
Okay. Good.
Yeah.
Alright. Just waiting for it to turn the camera on.

(12:47):
It's one of the great joys of doing a live show.
Yeah. So sometimes you sometimes you get through your stuff a little bit earlier than you expect and, you know,
maybe she's having a problem. Yeah. And we had had a little misunderstanding.
We were looking for an email and not through the,

(13:08):
not through the the app Oh, I see. Or the website. Oh, okay. Okay.
There she
is. Hello, Deborah.
Turn your mic on. Oh, no. Turn on your your mic.
Okay. How's that? Much better. Now we can hear you.
But can you see me? Yes. We can see you too.
Oh, because I can't see me. I just see the top of my head. Oh, no. You're you're you're, No. We got a good view. Yep. Oh, there you are. Okay. I just had to move my

(13:39):
move my screen.
Here we go. Now I can see me. Okay. Alright. Well, welcome aboard. It's great to have you here. Thank you for, taking the time out to be with us here tonight.
I know it's a little bit of a time difference for you guys, but, I Not at all. We're in the same time as you. Oh, you are? I thought you were in a different time zone. I'm sorry. In the fountain.
Oh, no. I'm in central time. So is that Oh, you are central. Okay. Yes. It's just one hour difference. Oh, okay. That that's not too bad. Not too bad. No. A few weeks ago Not like when we were in India.

(14:10):
Yeah. A few weeks ago, I had the pleasure of interviewing,
colonel Matthias Mueller,
of the Swiss army, and,
he was
at 03:00 in the morning his time, 08:00 our time. So Wow. Yes. So Oh. So there really is a Swiss army. Yes. There is. Yes. There is. I was told once that there was no such thing because they're neutral, hey? Well, they have a they have more of a it's more like a militia.

(14:35):
And and yes, they do have army knives. Yeah. Defense force. And they do have army knives. Yes.
I was just gonna say. Naturally.
Weapon of choice. No. We
had to ask that question. Alright.
So so Deborah so Brian was just giving us, his background and and,
and his, his story with,
his mom getting sick and then it was him attempting his life and

(14:59):
we left off
where, you had
you
had jumped from the bridge, I understood. Correct?
Yes. That's right. Okay. I want you to continue on with that.
Yeah. So,
you know, so what happened was it was
over the course of a a few weeks after my mom's diagnosis.

(15:22):
And I went through ups and downs of thinking, oh, well, maybe I'm gonna make it to,
you know, I
I was really struggling with seeing a way forward
for myself and any purpose or value or contribution
that I could make.
And,

(15:42):
so what happened,
was just one morning I woke up. It was December third of twenty nineteen. I woke up feeling particularly
down.
And over the course of two hours, I had my customary
breakfast
and coffee.
But just thinking about,

(16:04):
you know, I
I can't see a future for myself that I would wanna be a part of.
You know, looking after mom and working part time, and that was,
you know, it just it
then had become my life.

(16:25):
And so I just I figured that
what would end up happening is I would end up having to be a burden on those people around me.
And
they would resent me for it, and I would be miserable. And I just didn't see any
I didn't see any hope. I have no hope. I didn't see

(16:46):
a future,
like I say, that I would want to be a part of.
And
so I thought
that
the
the right thing to do, the the lesser evil
was
to take my own life. Mhmm.
And

(17:07):
so I got myself
dressed,
you know, got my shoes on,
and I walked out into the,
the brisk Alberta
winter air.
And I walked to a train bridge that I knew was
not far away, but ten minutes walk or so.

(17:31):
And it was a train bridge over a highway,
and,
have very wide
dirt shoulders.
Because the last thing I wanted to do was to
be in the way. I wanted to disappear,
you know, as much as I could. So I I thought, okay. I'll go here. I'll throw myself off.

(17:56):
It'll be far enough to kill me, and my body will be out of the out of the way when they come and collect me.
That was my thought process.
And
so I walked there
eleven in the morning or so,
and,
I purposely

(18:16):
avoided
tried to avoid people without looking obvious, like, I was up to something.
Because I was afraid that if anybody
looked into my eyes, they would see,
you know, that I was haunted, that there was a problem,
and that they would

(18:37):
try to stop me from doing what I was gonna do,
and that I then I then wouldn't be able to go through with it. And I was,
you know, had made up my mind that this is something that needed to be done, and I needed
to, you know, kinda steal myself for it.
And,
you know, near where I

(19:01):
when I made near where I made my jumps, there were three people standing and chatting outside
of,
a,
I don't wanna say the name just in case, but, one of those places where you buy, like, building and construction supplies and stuff like that. Okay.

(19:22):
There are people standing outside,
and,
so I just kinda scurped it around them. I went to the bridge.
I fired off a quick text to,
one of my brothers, my neighbor,
my closest friend,
and my pseudo,
you know, may have become my girlfriend at the time,

(19:47):
and a group message saying, you know, hey. I'm sorry to cause you this pain, but it'll be better in the long run. That's the kind of thing.
And,
then I climbed up on the the side of the bridge,
looked down, and figured, yeah, that's far enough, and I kicked myself over.
I must,

(20:09):
from what I understand, one of those
those that group of people saw me go over the side, and so they called 911
right away.
I was rushed to
the nearby hospital,
taken into surgery right away, and I broke both femurs quite badly,

(20:31):
through the skin.
So blood loss was also an issue.
Wrote my right arm in three places,
all three bones.
So it was rough, and I ended up requiring the amputation of one leg because they they lower leg would do too badly damage.

(20:52):
So, I mean, that's the
that's the bad part of the story.
I also like to focus on the good part of the story. Should I do that now? Or Oh, let's hear it. Or the floor is yours. Well, the The floor is yours. The good part of the story I touched on briefly, and that was it's yeah. My

(21:13):
friends and family,
circled around me and my brothers with whom I had never been close.
Were
really supportive.
I had been afraid that they were gonna tell me that I was
selfish and,
you know, stupid, weak,

(21:33):
whatever.
None of that.
They were very helpful, very supportive.
And,
so, yeah, it was
when I
when I woke up in hospital,
you know, I was still quite out of it between pain killer, blood loss,
and just trauma,

(21:54):
mental, and physical.
Sure.
But,
it was
I was in ICU for five days.
And
I think it was either that night or the second
day when I,
psychologist
or psychiatrist

(22:16):
came and talked to me. And,
after our discussion,
asked,
you know, are you glad
that you survived?
And I said yes,
but only because I knew that's the answer she wanted.
I at that point, I wasn't convinced. I wasn't I wasn't angry in thinking I'm gonna,

(22:40):
you know, do it right next time,
but I was unsure.
It was only,
you know, after a few days where all of a sudden I realized
that, oh, man.
My depression has been lying to me so badly.
You know? I do matter. I do have value.

(23:00):
I want to live.
And,
yeah,
I'm
I have my own place. I'm able to look after myself. I mean, spend almost all my time in a wheelchair, but,
I have a wheelchair accessible place. I'm able to get around, go places, see people,

(23:22):
and my mental health is better than it has been
at pretty much any
other time Mhmm. As an adult.
So that's the good part of the story.
Yeah? Certain
perspective
Absolutely. Granted by my brush with death.
No. Absolutely. Absolutely. I I can relate to a lot of what you said, and, I'll get into that in in just a minute. I'd like to turn over to to, Deborah for a moment here. Deborah, so,

(23:52):
I gave a little bit of your background, when we first connected.
So,
why don't you give us an idea you know, tell us about yourself and and how you,
how how you and and Brian met and,
and,
just your background in in the work that you do. Because I was reading your profile here and it's it's
it's wonderful work. So,

(24:13):
I think that's something that that a lot of people should be,
should should know more about.
Well, thank you very much,
for acknowledging the work.
I will
abbreviate,
the fact that I was a teen suicide survivor.
Okay. Attempt survivor.
I was 19, and I was angry when I woke up. And I was thinking I'm gonna go do this right. Mhmm. But I had a very good doctor, and he really helped me to see that I should live. And I had a right to live, and I had a right to be happy again.

(24:47):
He confirmed that what my parents were doing to me was inappropriate
and and wrong, and that gave me permission to reraise myself.
The thing is by 19, I had
suicide ideation
for so many years. I probably started around age 10. Wow. And so I had created some pretty serious neural pathways and habitual thinking patterns.

(25:12):
So every time I was disappointed
or frustrated
or
I felt I was failing,
then I would be, oh, well, you should just take my life. You know? Let's just get out. Let's just check out. I don't need to deal with this. Right? So then it reversed, and I had to fight
to stay alive.
I had to fight

(25:33):
to continue
to live.
And this went on from age 19 until age 61.
And between those that time period, I went to,
different
therapists.
Mhmm. Sometimes I could go a year or two without feeling severe, and I wouldn't have to go to therapy. But then it would hit again, and

(25:57):
and I would go back for a while. And each time I went, I got a little bit better,
but it still turned out to be just a Band Aid.
And, you know, eventually, it all came pouring back, and it became almost unbearable.
So I would go back to therapy. And at 61 years of age, I went back to therapy again,

(26:17):
and this woman was amazing. And,
you know, timing.
There's they always say things come to you when you're ready. Right? Yeah.
And I had written, my book. I had written my autobiography
several times and burned it thinking that would help. Like, if I burned all that stuff and got rid of it. Right?

(26:37):
But it came back anyway. Anyway, I've written it again, and it was it was in a binder in my basement.
Anyway, I went to see her, and
at one point,
well, she introduced me to the EMDR therapy,
which is eye movement
desensitization
and reprocessing.
So you don't say that three times fast.

(27:00):
No.
No. But,
we started this therapy, and I actually experienced
healing.
But before that happened, I went in one day. And what happens when you're going through therapy is at one point, you realize just how messed up you really are. Mhmm. And
I went in that day and I said to her,

(27:21):
is this possibly
an effort to change the spots on a leopard?
I said, this stuff is so deep seated. I this has been since infancy.
And I said, I just can't see
how we can fix this.
And she said, Deborah,
those spots were never yours to begin with.

(27:43):
Your parents put those on you, and we're gonna take them off one at a time.
And that
moment, I'm not kidding you. It was like the sun came up. I could feel the warmth on my face. I had hope of real healing, and I could actually stop suffering this over and over, repeated, repeated.

(28:05):
And sure enough,
we reached a point and she said to me, now go and finish your book.
And I did. And I finished it, and it was published and released in 2019.
And my whole premise at that time was not only for the healing,
but also to demonstrate that I have a right to talk about this. Yes.

(28:26):
I may not have a PhD from a local university, but I graduated the school hard knocks with a PhD. Let me tell you that.
So by,
now that was at at 61.
So by '63, I was pretty pretty good.
At '65,
it was '20,

(28:46):
'18.
And my I was finishing my book. I've I retired
from the work I was doing in sales,
finished my book, got that launched and and,
published and and launched in 2019.
And
then I started sharing with people. I started telling them, and I was actually going out and helping youngsters, talking to young people.

(29:12):
I have been doing that all along,
sporadically
as a volunteer.
And a friend of mine, a very good friend of mine, knew Brian's mother very well. In fact, they were very close.
Okay. And
she called me because she knew what I was doing, the work I was doing.
And she told me about Brian and that he had attempted suicide and he survived.

(29:35):
Well, I
went to see him just as soon as I could find time in my schedule.
And his story
floored me because
suicide is usually an act of desperation,
a spur of the moment.
That's it. I'm gonna do this.
Now when I was 12,

(29:55):
and I tried it the first time, I was 12, and I tried it, and it was just foolish.
But when I was 19 and tried it, I meant it, and I meant it sincerely.
Mhmm.
So when Brian told me his story about how he walked for ten minutes in the fresh air
and had breakfast,
put on shoes and coat,

(30:16):
and walked to this place Just like a normal day.
It's a story that you do not hear.
You do not hear that kind of story.
And so
at that moment, I knew. And
prior to this, when my book launched, I wanted to put together
kinda like a training

(30:38):
educational
program for students
so that I could tell them about all these bad feelings
sad feelings that you can get during puberty
and how to deal with them because that's when it starts is puberty right. We've all been there and you all went through it and we gotta sit back and expect the kids to do it differently only when the world keeps getting worse

(31:01):
and it's challenging
even more
Very true. And I thought it's putting this program together. I thought to myself, this program would be best
presented as a male,
female,
duo.
Because we would represent mom and dad
or big sister and big brother. It you just need that balance.

(31:23):
Right?
And so I've been
considering this and thinking about who I might consider to help me with this.
And then I met Brian.
And at that moment, when he told me his story, I looked at him and I thought, this is the man.
This is the man that needs to be in my program with me. And I convinced him because he was still in shock.

(31:50):
Actually,
I met him in January. And in February, we did a presentation in a high school together. So this was the January right after,
Brian attempted? Oh, wow. Okay. That's right. Yeah. Yes. I was still in, I was at a,
continuing care facility
for physical rehabilitation

(32:11):
here in Calgary. Okay. Calgary, Alberta, Canada.
We're
we're both
coming at you live from
Yeah.
From the fifty first date. On the frozen word. I had
I had just recently been transferred out of the the trauma ward at the hospital

(32:32):
to,
this continuing care facility.
And that was shortly after, and
and, yeah, Deborah came and visited and, you know, hey.
You know,
your
your mother was friends with
my best friend or,
you know, close to Yeah. She said told me and well, then immediately,

(32:55):
oh, okay. Well, you must be, you know, if you you're friends with Rosemary, you must be okay. Yeah. So,
yeah.
Yeah. And that's and that's where it started. And,
COVID threw a wrench in the gears,
definitely, which it did for a lot of people. Yeah. For sure. And then, yeah, by the time 2023

(33:16):
rolled around,
we were very seriously
put up a website
specifically for it. We we did videos right away. Our first video is on our website on the first page
as you open up that website,
and we are asking for contributions
to,
print the workbooks

(33:36):
that I had created and developed.
And
then, of course, the most recent,
that's on our website is our instructional video and the workbooks that we
did manage to,
publish
and got copyrights on those. And, yeah, and we started our work, and we have been ever since. Well, that's great. I'm actually I have your website up on the monitor right now. And Which one? Do you have the Survivors of Hopelessness? Reach out. Yes.

(34:07):
Yes. I have that one. And,
you, you recommended this music video.
Yes. And, I was wondering, do I have can I have your permission to play it right now? Absolutely. Like screen share.
Yes. So I listened to it I listened to it earlier and it it's it's actually very, very good. So, I'm gonna screen share this,
so I wasn't able to I wasn't able to pull it. So let me do that and then I'll I'll play this video.

(34:30):
Wonderful.

(37:36):
That was that was a great video. I I
very well done. Very now who wrote it? Because you're you're singing along to it.
Yes. So? I love it. I just love it.
Actually,
I hired a,
artist
to write that song,
through a website.

(37:57):
Gosh. I can't think of the name of the website now. But what you do is you
contact them with
a loved one's birthday or an anniversary
or whatever, and they'll they'll write a song for you. Okay. And it's very affordable,
when that's all you're doing. When you're doing this, it's a lot different. But Sure. Sure. Yes.

(38:19):
Anyway, I selected they have a roster, and so you can go in and listen to the different artists. And then you select one, and and then
you send him your story or what you want written or in the song.
And that was one tape.
I mean, we changed
very little in that.

(38:39):
He just did an amazing job. Alex Yeah. Absolutely.
Absolutely. Alex Slay is his name. I can't think of the
Songfinch.
That's what it's called. Okay. The website with Songfinch.
And,
yeah. I just I couldn't believe it when I got it back. I just cried. It was so good. My job. Yeah. Absolutely. I could not ever have written it better. It's perfect. It's Well, that's a great it really is a great so it's very well done. The the video's perfect looks very professional. So, I mean, I I

(39:09):
Yep. And it gets We
we paid,
that too. We paid professionals to do it. I mean, I could have done the video
and wrote the song. I could pop the popcorn and everything, but, you know, I wanted to share some of the
Some of the glory. Life. Right? Yeah. Of course. You know how it goes. Right? Of course. You wanna share some of the glory. I totally understand that. Totally understand it. So What I do wanna comment here is that song,

(39:39):
is more leaning towards what we would call intervention.
Mhmm.
And what we do, our program is pure prevention
because we are coming in well before,
and we wanna talk to the kid
every child,
whether they're having emotional problems or not. As a matter of fact, I'd rather talk to the healthy ones

(40:00):
because
you will find that more
of your real successful high school people
end up suffering
with imposter syndrome.
Okay, now can you explain that?
Imposter
syndrome is when, well, think about it. When you're a child,

(40:21):
your whole environment is set up for you to win. Mhmm. If you have good parents, not if you have parents like mine. But if you have good parents and you're going to a good school, you have all kinds of opportunity. You can be in a band. You can learn an instrument. You can sing. You can be in plays. All this is available to you. Arts. You know?
We did pottery. I mean, we did all kinds of things in my school.

(40:43):
And
then
you graduate high school and you go,
how did I do that? You know? Because
it was all set set up. You know what I mean? For you.
And you you start to reach a point where you go, I I don't know how I'm doing this.
And they're gonna find out because I'm gonna eventually drop this ball, and everybody's gonna know

(41:06):
that I'm I'm not who you think I am.
And that's what happens. That's the number one thing that happens, and that's why parents say we never saw it coming. Mhmm. He had everything going for him.
And that's why
he had imposter syndrome, and it's normal to feel that way. They just have to understand it. Yeah. And that's where our program teaches. It teaches how those cycles come through. I'm gonna I wanna ask you about your program in a second, but I just wanted to just just kinda circle back to something here.

(41:36):
Both of you have elements in in your stories that
that
strike me very specifically because,
very recently, I I went through a very difficult period of time, and I did attempt to take my life.
So,
in in the in the matter of
less than two years,

(41:58):
I lost my father.
And then six months after that, I lost my grandmother.
And then after losing my grandmother, my wife left me.
And then,
and then about
six to eight months after that, my mother died.
Oh my god. So all of that took took place. Wow. All

(42:21):
all The hits keep coming, right? Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely.
So,
so I attempted. I I I took, I took a bottle of pills and I washed it down with some Jack.
And I was That's fine.
And I was I was very very angry the next day when I woke up with barely a headache. I was too. I was too. So yeah. So so like I said, so so many so the elements of both of your stories have really,

(42:47):
you know,
really speak to me because I've I've been down that route.
Yes, sir.
Dude, I'm glad you're still here.
Oh, oh, wow. Oh, wow. Yeah. Oh my I mean, it's hardly surprising
that you thought, you know, what the hell was this?
Yeah.
Yeah. And I'm I'm I'm gonna trip you out even further. I did it twice.

(43:11):
Oh my. Same year?
Yeah. Did it, and then about
two, maybe three months later, I tried it again.
Oh my goodness.
And,
so, you know Was there medical intervention?
Or No. Or you just No. I I just I I just went through I just I just said, you know what? It's just, you know, I I have a very

(43:33):
my faith brought me through. I'm a I'm a born again Christian. I'm a I'm a saved guy. And, you know, at that particular moment, I I I was extremely weak.
And,
you know, I, I fell back into my faith.
And,
I had a great support from my church. My my pastor is a a a phenomenal man, and I love him with all my heart and he he Nice to hear. He was there with me through a lot of it and,

(43:57):
the church themselves. And and, of course, you know, I had, see, I I I'm I'm a transplant to Texas. I'm not from Texas. So
I moved here to Texas with now my ex wife because she is she and this is her hometown.
And so I don't really know anybody here. I don't have much of a support. I work here. I have coworkers. I have colleagues.

(44:21):
Most of my my friends are back up in New York,
and,
you know, it's as far as family goes, now it's just my sister and I. And I mean, I have I have my kids, but I I can't dump this stuff on my kids, you know. So,
so my sister and I have been a great support to each other as well. My sister my sister,
when my when when

(44:41):
mom, grandma
when when dad, grandma, and mom passed, my sister was the one who was there with them through through almost all of it.
And so she took it extremely hard. So we were very
supportive of each other. And, my one regret was that I didn't let my sister know
everything that I was dealing with and didn't open up to her about it so that she was aware of it.

(45:04):
And, if I think that if she was more aware of it, if I let her into it and let her understand what I was dealing with, she wouldn't I I wouldn't have
either tried it the first time or second time.
That's right. So, I can relate to I didn't realize
you know, people talk about well,
they didn't they didn't say why didn't you talk to me.

(45:26):
Nobody said that to me afterwards.
They did kind of express, you know, I I wish I had known that you were having such a difficult time. Mhmm.
And
I didn't realize
personally
how bad off I was. I didn't recognize
the,

(45:48):
you know, how I how I had isolated
myself
Mhmm. And how I,
was feeling my need for for socializing
human interaction
through social media,
which is not enough. No. Not at all. You know, I wasn't getting

(46:09):
nutrition.
I was just getting empty calories in a, you know,
in a metaphorical sense.
Exactly what you mean. And
yeah. But, yeah, I didn't realize how bad off I was.
And
part of a big part of our
program
that we really would like people to get on board with

(46:32):
is
this is information
that will help you
help you
cope with the difficult times Mhmm.
Help you recognize
where you're facing challenges
and
give you
a, like a framework or a road map

(46:53):
to navigate
those difficult times. And,
you know, for the
Deborah said, you know, we'd almost rather talk to the healthy ones.
Not that we don't wanna deal with the ones who are struggling.
What we wanna do is the majority
of people
who

(47:14):
are not
suicidal or
will not
are not likely to become suicidal. Right.
If they can
if they have the information
that can make them
better aware
of
other people's struggles

(47:35):
and to perceive when other people are are struggling so they can reach out, like, in our video. Reach out to us. I'll be your brother.
You know, if they can
be the superheroes,
that
are helping
their,
you know, their their

(47:56):
fellow students
Mhmm. Their friends, their family.
That's a big part of it, you know, whether you
whether you're you're struggling or not. If you if you have that knowledge, it'll help you navigate, and and hopefully, you can help somebody else. Yeah. And I agree with that. You know, it it's
it's it's really important to have have people that you can you can go to and talk to and and feel comfortable to talk to and, about these things. And I know that there are people watching. Sometimes they gotta come to you, I find. Yeah. If you

(48:29):
sometimes sometimes people don't realize how much they're struggling or they don't wanna burden other people. They're like, everybody's got their own challenges. They don't need to hear about my my stuff. Oh, sure. I've I've I've had that attitude many, many times, you know, in
in the days leading up to and and the days after and when I was trying to figure out what the next thing for me was gonna be, you know. And I think but another good thing too, I think is, you know, you you you do something constructive

(48:56):
to kinda
distract yourself from the thoughts and the ideas that you're having about that particular thing. Like, at that time, I was doing another a different podcast than I'm doing now,
and that was that was that became very therapeutic for me, believe it or not. I mean, I I just threw my I just threw myself into that and threw and just poured myself into that and worked on it and,

(49:18):
had some success with that and I was very happy with it. And then took a break from that and I started this one and I'm trying to build this this one up. You know, it, it's to to me, this is, this and I also took up cooking, you know. So I have I have things that I do that that just that that kinda just, you know, keep me focused on

(49:38):
I have a reason to get up today. I have a reason to do what I have to do today. Hey, you know, I I gotta do a show tonight. I I can't I can't think this, like, I gotta do this. I gotta do that. You know, people are waiting for this and, you know.
And, yes, I work. I still have my regular I work a regular forty hour a week job here. And,
you know,
I have a lot of responsibility at that other job and, you know, people depend on me there too. And I can't, can't go to work drunk and I can't go to work, you know,

(50:04):
you know, popping pills, and I I have to be on my I have to be on point, and I I can't play around with this stuff. And I
so it it so having that around you
also helps. You know, having that type of, you know, the the the,
the distractions
to keep your mind focused on other things other than what you're feeling.
You sound Yeah. I mean, having I'm sorry. Very briefly.

(50:31):
Having other things that that will prevent you from dwelling on the negative. Right. Exactly. Good to think about it, but not
You can't live. Overly focused. You can't live in that moment anymore. You have to, you know, it happened. It would you it what whatever it was, however, the circumstances were,
it happened. It's behind you now. You gotta keep looking forward and keep walking forward, not looking back. It's like running a race. You know, when you're running a race,

(50:57):
you're not gonna
the number one thing you're taught
is don't look back.
That's right. You know, you gotta keep looking forward. Eyes on the eyes. Exactly. Exactly. So, you know yeah. And I'm sorry, Deborah, you were gonna say something?
I was gonna say you sound like you just got up and said, this is it. I'm doing this now.

(51:19):
You didn't plan it for days. You didn't plan it for hours
No. The way Brian did. Right? You did it the way I did. Yeah. And he was like, I've had enough. This is it. I'm done. Right?
And I also wanted to ask you if you realized
you were that close.
And if someone had asked you

(51:39):
the day you did it earlier in the day,
if you were considering suicide, would you have admitted it? Oh, yeah. No. Because I I had Would you have? I would have. And I I could tell you exactly because I had told somebody
that day Oh. That I I said that I can't I just can't do this. I am just so broken. I just can't do it anymore, and I I just want it to end.

(52:00):
Wow. You know, I didn't specifically say I was gonna try it
that night. That night? But I did say that I I just want this over. I just don't wanna I don't want and I think the words I used was I just don't wanna breathe anymore.
I'm tired I'm tired of breathing.
Yep. Yep. I hear that. Oh my gosh. I hear that. So yeah. Yeah. I probably I want to have your mailing address, and I wanna send you a workbook, and I wanna send you the link to our our

(52:26):
video. Oh, sure. Yeah.
For free. I appreciate it. Available on the site for a small amount, but I really just want you to look at it
as a survivor.
Mhmm. And if you enjoyed our music video, I think you're really gonna enjoy
our instructional
video. And the thing is, like, Brian and I have

(52:47):
I can't say we have fun with this.
Okay? Do we have fun with this?
But we bring fun in the mix. Yeah. You know? We allow
the
the full range of emotion
because that's what we have. We have a range of emotion. Right? We're not just
stuck in one, and you have to allow yourself to flow, ebb and flow

(53:09):
within the the
and I'm gonna use the term positive and negative. I know some people don't like that. They get very offended if you say positive and negative, but I just think it resonates so much better
if you're just laying on the line. It's positive and negative. Right? There are some things that are just just that simple, just positive, negative. They're not and not everything has a gray area.

(53:31):
Exactly. And it does not have to be complicated.
That's the other thing. People think it's complicated.
It isn't.
It is so stupid simple.
That's why people are missing it. Mhmm. And that, I think, is what our video brings out, our instructional video.
So,
you you you know, you can text me or you can give me the address now or write it in the thing. Yeah. Well, I'll I'll send it to you I'll send it to you after the show's over. And, I'll I'll I'll either email it to you or I'll,

(54:01):
or I'll put it in the in the in the website
when we close when we close out everything for you. You don't wanna just send it out to your millions of listeners right now? My my You look at comments and letters, man. Oh, I go. Okay. You can do. Our our 10 our tens of listeners that are that are
you know, the, the the the thing is, like, with with this talking about that, it's, like, my my audio

(54:23):
audience is much bigger than Oh. Than the video. So I'm I'm I'm trying to build the video, but I get more I get more of my plays or downloads or whatever on the video, after once it's uploaded. And I think it has to do with the time that I do it. That's why. That's so cute. Yeah. But we'll And people say And even though then I most of my podcast, I listen to the I they're either audio only or I listen to the audio version as I do something else. Other stuff. Yeah. See, I try to that's the case remote.

(54:56):
I try to steer people multitask to fit it all in. There's so much to do. There's just so much sensory overload.
Yes. You know? They, I try to steer people to rumble because I'm a stockholder in rumble, so I have a I have a vested interest in this.
Okay. So I'll keep that in mind. I have I have some selfish interest on this one. Sorry. Hey. Go for it.

(55:20):
Well, I'm I'm in like I said, I retired in 2018.
So, yeah, this is my supplementary
to my
other my pension and my old age security and all that.
And I retired in I retired from New York City, eight years ago. And Oh, okay. So this is career number two for me.

(55:40):
Alright. So it's, for and I and I work in a nursing facility.
And I'll tell you. Yeah. Yeah. My my for a while. My my my few listeners know this already, so I could tell them again.
But I I work in a nursing facility. I'm I'm a I I work in, facility maintenance and life safety.
Nice. I'm the I'm the department head for it. So it's, it's a great job. I love it. I I I love the people that I work with. There's some really very very exceptional people, very talented people.

(56:09):
And, you know, as much as I tried not to make friends with the residents, I do. You know?
Yeah.
It's hard not to. No. Yeah. I'm a health care aide. Important meaningful work too.
Yes. Absolutely.
It's a lot. And I'm a health carrier, so I worked in the facilities as well. I also did home health care. Mhmm.
Yeah. And working with people who decided to age

(56:32):
in place.
My,
my You were aging in place. Yes. My my basically, I have this is this is a new career for me because my original when I when I worked for New York City, I I worked in law enforcement.
And,
so I did uniform service. I did investigations.
And then, and then I finished my I finished my career in in department operations.

(56:55):
And,
so I and
been through
the ringer with that stuff. You know, I did that for, like, twenty five years, just about twenty five years. And so working in healthcare, I don't
think that none of them listen to my show so I can tell you.
There's,
gotta have a sense of humor, right?

(57:15):
I talked I actually talked these folks into hiring me because they never dealt with somebody from New York before.
So, when I interviewed for this job, I was like,
the next day I called the HR director who's a great guy.
He's a good friend. I love him.
So I called him and I was like, alright. So, so when do I start? He goes like, well, you know, we're we're interviewing other people. I said, you don't need to interview anybody else. You're hiring me.

(57:41):
And he was like How well did you know this man at that point? I met him the day before the first time.
So so I was like That's why America
I'm like, so I'm a US citizen.
So so he said, he goes, no. No. Really. Because we have to interview other people. We have we have, like, five five or six more other people. I said, but you're wasting your time. You're you're gonna hire me. So

(58:03):
I can I'll be there tomorrow. I'll start the onboarding.
And did you?
No. I waited for them to call me, but but I but I called them every day. I was like, so?
So? Well,
what are we doing?
When do I start? When do I start? You know? Are we ready now? And that Are we there yet? And then yeah. Exactly. And then, and then, and then finally he was like, alright. Alright.

(58:27):
He goes,
come on in, we'll give you a formal
offer.
I was like, alright.
So
I talked him into the
job and then I asked him a couple years ago, I said, so do you regret it?
What did he say? He said, yeah, sometimes.

(58:49):
Well because Good for him. Because
yeah. Well because first of all, I'm a very when you get to know me,
I'm a very I'm a very sarcastic person.
I don't mean it to be mean, but that's like my family. I'm Sicilian, you know, I grew up in a Oh my gosh.
Yeah. I'm a Sicilian from Brooklyn,
you know, and

(59:10):
you know, my family I like Quebec French.
In my family, if you if you didn't if if you weren't able to keep up,
you know
You got left behind. Yeah. In pretty good shape. So, so I so I have a very sarcastic sense of humor at times and and and sometimes I I don't have a filter either. I'll just say what I'm thinking
and,

(59:31):
like, I well, I'm not gonna say the story because it has
patient information in it, so I can't. But
but, but there was a a the HR director actually, asked me a question and I said, well, look at my face. Does it look like I spoke to the person?
And he goes, alright.
And he just walked away.
You know?

(59:52):
Oh, boy.
So but, it's Priceless. But it's a but they're a great bunch. They're they're after eight years being there, they're finally getting used to my sense of humor. So Oh, wow. You know, which which is great. But,
but,
this is this has been a great conversation. I really enjoyed it. But one thing I do want to ask you about EMDR,
because I honestly, until until I read your information, I had never heard of EMDR.

(01:00:15):
Yeah. I know. I know. And I and I know that you you explained it, briefly with the, the eye movement Eye eye movement
desensitization
and reprocessing.
Right? Correct. Okay. Now I I was reading about this, and it says that,
EMDR is a controversial,
practice. Do do you any why why would that be?

(01:00:36):
Well, even when she introduced me to it and told me how it worked, my first thing was is this hypnotism.
Like, I because I did not wanna get anywhere near that. Okay.
And, I'm gonna say she no. When you said she, who who are you referring to?
The therapist Oh, okay. Okay. Who introduced me to the EMDR
Okay. When she explained how it was gonna work and what we're gonna do and and and how it was gonna be good for me, but that I have to take it in stages. So you can't,

(01:01:05):
like, you need to take time to heal in between
Okay. As it brings stuff up. Right?
But the reason it's controversial
is because it does go so deep.
I see. And you really need to be and I think the reason it works so well for me is I have been through so much therapy.
Mhmm. I had been through so much talk therapy by the time I found the MDR,

(01:01:29):
then it was a perfect fit for me. Okay. And the way it works is she moves,
her finger or an object,
and you follow that with your eyes as if it's REM sleep.
Oh, okay.
Because the brain doesn't know you're not sleeping.
Right?
So when you mimic REM sleep

(01:01:50):
and you
verbalize
the trauma and you talk about what happened,
this brings it out and it allows the brain to reprocess
it. Interesting. Because now the trauma when you experience the trauma, it freezes you in place,
when they see say fight,

(01:02:12):
flight,
or freeze.
Okay.
And when you go through a trauma where you couldn't fight it and you couldn't,
run away from it, you had to live it,
then you freeze.
And it freezes in that moment.
So then
when your brain detects a familiar

(01:02:34):
smell that was going on at that time or a song or
wind chimes, you know,
this puts you back in that, and it's exactly like what the soldiers go through. Mhmm. They go back to that that battle,
and they relive it, and they function as if it's happening right now.

(01:02:55):
So
it's that's why it's controversial because it does go very deep. Sorry. My mouth dries out. No. That's you're fine. I believe I have I have my I have my third cup of coffee here, and I got my my water. I'm yeah. I do the same thing. Yeah. That's alright. But, no, seriously, it that and I think that's why. But it
I have had healing.

(01:03:17):
It has been since '20 I think the last time I saw her was in 2020.
Okay.
And then we had COVID, of course, so I didn't go anyway.
But
I I can still do the EMDR myself. If something comes up or if if I'm triggered,
then I can go and use the EMDR process

(01:03:39):
on my own
to,
yeah, to settle that down. And she also taught,
butter what they call butterfly hugs
where you
put your your hands on opposite shoulders and you tap one at a time. Yeah.
Yeah. That's butterfly hugs. And when you do that, it it triggers your

(01:04:01):
nervous system and there's this
the the sympathetic
nervous system
Okay. To,
yeah, to calm you down.
You know, it's interesting you said because I I I
in in in our in the facility that I work in, we have a memory care unit, which is for, residents that have Alzheimer's and dementia and things like that.

(01:04:22):
And I I there there was there are two specific residents that I'm thinking of
that I see doing that
regularly.
And and, you know, I just thought it was a tick or something. But maybe I mean, it might be. But, you know,
but I guess it must be it could possibly be bringing them some comfort.
Right. Okay. I

(01:04:43):
that makes sense. Alright. Absolutely.
Yeah. Try it.
And,
our program, by the way, is written to age eight.
Okay.
The workbooks are written to age eight.
But adults can get just as much out of this
as an eight year old. In fact, probably more because you're more mature.

(01:05:06):
And I also recommend, if possible, that they share this information
and and and revisit it once a year. That's interesting. Yeah. It's an hour an hour a year. Spend that teaching your children
how to cope
with negative feelings
and
especially
when they're feeling isolated

(01:05:27):
or if they're feeling fake.
Wow. That's a good idea, actually. I'd Yeah. And,
you know, we, you know, we recommended
eight to 13
is kind of that prime age range,
you know, so that eight year olds could understand
it. And, yeah, that,

(01:05:48):
you know, you go through it, revisit it once a year,
maybe see how your
thoughts, how your answers
have changed
over that time, and and you can track your progress through
what we term the five stages of intellectual
development.
Okay.
Going from

(01:06:10):
infancy
where
stage one, you
you don't know
that you don't know and you don't know that you don't know. Mhmm. So you have no idea what information you're missing. Sounds like my everyday. Even know where to start.
What's that? It sounds like my everyday.
Well, there you go.

(01:06:31):
That's the cool thing about these stages,
which can be both frustrating and encouraging,
is that they repeat through your life. Yeah.
Stage two
is
you still don't
know, but now you know that you don't know.
So that's the toddler that's asking questions.

(01:06:52):
Why is this like this? Why is it like that? Why do I have to
all of these things.
Stage three is a tough one because that's
the teenager
who has now gained,
a kind of very superficial knowledge of a lot of topics. Mhmm. But
you think that you you know this much, that's all there is to know. Right? It's gotten figured out.

(01:07:18):
Well,
no.
Yeah.
And,
yeah, I remember that.
And that's something that will come back in your face
throughout your life. Yeah. Stage four can also be a very challenging one. That's where
you know, but you don't know that you know or you don't know how you know.

(01:07:42):
That's the the
the young people who are
they are succeeding,
but they don't have that
full
knowledge
that they could
kind of impart to other people or
they
it may not be repeatable
if the their circumstances

(01:08:03):
change.
Those
Deb Deborah was talking about the,
the,
young people who are successful, but then as soon as they're out of high school and they're not in that structured environment as is structured and environment,
not as much as directing
them, they get lost. Mhmm. And then they think, well, maybe I was never that good to begin with. I was just lucky.

(01:08:27):
Mhmm.
They've been succeeding on talent, but,
you know, now they might
they may be struggling with that.
But then you get if you keep going, you will get stage five where you know when you know you know, you got it figured out.
You understand it enough. You can tell other people how you're

(01:08:51):
succeeding.
But then as soon as you get your first job, your first,
girlfriend or boyfriend or,
you know, whatever
new
situation
when you start a podcast Mhmm. When you try to make an instruction video for your,
for your, workbooks

(01:09:13):
that you're you're trying to sell,
all of a sudden, you're back at stage one and just like
That's right. Yeah. You're just
bumble
cluster
messing yourself up entirely, and you you wouldn't you don't know which way to dig to get out of it.
Yeah. But you keep going.

(01:09:36):
So, I mean, we're at
Yeah. Make it We're at, like, stage three and a half.
I don't know. What do you think, Deborah?
Yeah. Three and a half, man. What we thought We're definitely in stage three when we were get trying to get our video bait.
I mean, we we

(01:09:56):
took a few
swings at that then
before we finally got something that we were
ready to endorse.
Yeah. I I'm sure. I I can imagine. It it's it's not easy doing what you guys are doing, so that then that's you should be applauded for it. So I I appreciate it. Oh, thanks, man. You know, I I was as you were talking, I was thinking that, you know, my kids are older. My my my daughter is 29.

(01:10:21):
My son is 25.
So Grandchildren?
I have three. Yes.
Okay. How old are they?
They are in the age group of,
where well, at least one of them is. My my first granddaughter,
Carmela, she is she's old enough to use the workbook.

(01:10:41):
My second
is
she is
four, I believe. Aw. And then and then, and then we have a one year old. Oh my goodness. So yeah. So they're so they're little. And that's all for my daughter. That's My my son. Thank you. My son does my son isn't married yet, but, he's he's working on that.
Okay. And I told him to take your time.

(01:11:03):
Yes. You're good. Don't rush. Don't rush. You know, get get yourself established. Harry and Hayes
Hayes
regret in leisure or pretending leisure? Something like that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Something like that. But, I think the workbooks would be great for, for for my daughter and my, and my niece, actually. My my my niece and her kids. Their her kids are at the same age. My It's funny,

(01:11:26):
my daughter and my niece,
I think, have this unwritten
competition.
Like, when one gets pregnant, the other one gets pregnant.
And it's
so it's it's
insane. They're they're they're so close. And it's great though because the kids are close together, so Yeah. That's wonderful. They have a very close relationship.
Yeah. To grow up. So I think I think some of this material will be great, for them,

(01:11:51):
especially because they're in the age range that you're talking about. So this is this is wonderful stuff. I mean, it really is.
But I'm very interested in this EMDR, and I'm gonna I'm gonna think I'm gonna study some of this a little bit more. Yeah. Do it. It's it's And if you can find someone, a therapist who, can administer it to at least get you started Mhmm. That would be the best. Yeah. To take it on your own right off the bat, I wouldn't suggest that, that you should have a guide, a professional guide to do that. Sure. Sure. Yeah.

(01:12:21):
That's that's
the catch down here in Eagle Pass. The Eagle Pass is a small town. It's,
there's only one hospital in town.
You know, so it's a small place and there's there's really not much
not many options here as far as,
certain types of specific health care.
So so for that, I would have to travel to probably, like, San Antonio, which is about two and a half, three hours away from here.

(01:12:46):
So so it would be hard, but I it's worth to look into. It's definitely something to work. You can also yeah. You might be able to also get online.
I I was I was thinking, like, one of those telemed things, like, telehealth. That would go online. That would be interesting. Yeah. I might might check into this. This is really interesting. I'd
I'd be curious to see what,
how this would work with me.

(01:13:07):
Yes. I'm glad we did this tonight. This was this was great. I am so glad we did this. Yes. This is fantastic. And and I I would love to have you guys back on again
and,
well, you know, to kind of get caught up.
And, so what we'll do here though is I'm I'm we're gonna we're gonna cut it at this point and, we're gonna wrap it for tonight.
And, again, thank you. Deborah, thank you so much. Brian, thank you so much. You guys have a great

(01:13:31):
great story,
and, I really do appreciate the work that you're doing, especially with the with teens. Teens
are so delicate.
I know. Redly delicate. I know. Like, especially, like, in in, you know, in in the church setting, you know, that's what I'm thinking of too. The church setting, you know, we we focus so much on the teens because they are so

(01:13:53):
impressionable
at this point. They're in that development stage where they where where where they go either way, either direction and, you know, either really work on things that are gonna, you know, really do well for them in their lives or they can take that that that far left turn and, you know, end up, you know,
God forbid, in a ditch someplace. You know? Yes.

(01:14:14):
So Please feel free to share that video with your pastor too. Oh, certainly will. Absolutely. If you would think that that's something that wouldn't help his youth group,
you know, I can get workbooks to him. Yeah. We Yeah. We can. And I work with special groups like that. Yeah. Absolutely. Going on the website. Yeah. That'll be great.

(01:14:35):
Alright. Well, again, thank you so much for everything. Thank you for the time that you gave us tonight. God bless you. And, we will be talking soon and, look for my message. I'll send you all that information that we talked about. And,
again, thank you so much. God bless you. Thank you. Rosamundis,
thank you so much for having us on. No. You're welcome. Appreciate it. It's a it's a privilege. Have a great night, folks.

(01:14:55):
You
too. Alright, folks. So,
guys, I hope you enjoyed the, the chat with, with Brian and Deborah. And, so what we're gonna do, we're gonna go through our closing here at this point and we're gonna say goodnight.
So just wanna give our shout outs and say thank you. You guys are welcome to stick around if you like. You're you're fine.
So we're gonna give our shout outs to our executive producers, Wayne and Rosanna Rankin. Thank you so much for all of your support. Also, we're gonna give our shout out to our producer,

(01:15:22):
anonymous Angela,
and she understands it's a joke between the two of us,
so you know.
So again, to anonymous Angela, thank you so much for all that you're doing. You've been a tremendous help to us. And, folks, don't forget to check out our website, joeroos.com.
Look for that contact form. Send us over any questions, comments, cares, concerns you have.
Again, if you don't wanna use the web form, totally fine. Email me directly at info@joeroos.com.

(01:15:47):
That's info@joeroos.com.
Don't forget the socials, x at joe roos, Instagram,
not joeroos because they well, it's for you guys because when I open my my my audience knows this already. When I opened up the Instagram account for the show,
before I even finished the signing on process, they banned my account for some reason. So I said, alright. Well, let me try not Joe Russo. So I did. And that worked. So

(01:16:11):
so, and then we have our, our Minds account at minds.com/joerus.
Truth social, joerus. And also, don't forget
the Facebook page, the podcast at Joe Rusciello, full last name.
Alright. Well, I think that is just about, going to do it for us, this evening. So folks,

(01:16:32):
just wanna say thank you again. Have a great night. God bless you. Good Good night, and we'll see you tomorrow night 08:00 central time. Good night. Goodbye.
And he's gone,
just like that.

(01:16:54):
Who was that madman?
Yeah.
Oh, I'm so glad that worked out.
Yeah.
It almost didn't. It almost didn't.
I'm really
pleased that we were able to do that.
Get on this.
And the fact that

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