Rethinking Animal Testing: A Conversation with Dr. Emily Trunnell (Ep. 55)

Episode Transcript
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Alright. And, I see we have, doctor Trunnell, our special guest, is waiting in the waiting room, so we'll bring her on here momentarily.
Just wanna remind all the folks that are listening on our,

(10:11):
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Alright. So we don't wanna keep our guests waiting too much longer, so we're gonna allow her into the room.

(10:56):
And let's do that. And she'll pop up here any second.
And then,
once she does that,
we'll introduce her, and then we'll cut the streams.
Hello there. Hi. How are you? Great to have you here. Folks, this is, doctor Emily Trunnell.

(11:16):
Doctor Trunnell is, works with, PETA, the People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals.
And, she is a, she has a BS in nutrition,
PhD in neuroscience from the University of Georgia,
and she does amazing work over at PETA. I've been reading up on your your history, your bio. I checked out your video earlier today,
and, I'm really very impressed with that. So let me just say goodbye to the folks on YouTube, Twitch, and x, and then, we'll continue on here in one second. Alright, folks. So if you're listening on YouTube or watching on YouTube, Twitch, or x, we'll see tomorrow.

(11:47):
But, if you wanna keep on watching, head over to Rumble, download the Rumble app, follow the show, the podcast with Joe Roos,
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and we'll see you there. Alright. So with that said, folks, we'll see you tomorrow.
Alright, and we are clear from all of them.

(12:08):
Bunch of losers.
They need to they need to get on board with rumble.
I'm a shareholder. I need to extend
So, I have I have a vested interest in in, in Rumble, so. Of course, yeah. We need we need them to come on over this way. So, that is great. Well, Doctor. Charles, thank you so much for coming on with us here.
Really do appreciate it. And, like I said, I've been looking up on on some of the things you've been working on, and I'm I'm really very impressed.

(12:35):
And, I think I think we can absolutely agree
that if there's one thing
that,
should not be going on, and that's that's the
painful
torture, I think, anyway, of animals
for, medical experiments. And I was very, very moved actually watching your video,
the one that your staff sent over to us.

(12:57):
And,
just, you know, you you don't realize,
you know, because I I think the media basically paints this horrible picture of people that work at PETA.
You know,
and it's really not the case. Look, I'm I am not they paint the picture of they paint PETA as the on this far left crazy, you know,
organization, and I am far from that. I am a I am a right wing person,

(13:21):
but if there's anything that I think we all can agree on is that we cannot
do the things we do to animals.
It's, it's just it's immoral.
It it truly truly is. I am an animal lover. I have my my kids. I call them my kids. I I have my two French Bulldogs. I got Beanie and Charlie. And,
Beanie is my girl. She's she's four and Beanie's

(13:43):
Charlie's three.
And, like, right now, I'm I'm really very upset over something about with Charlie. We just found out that Charlie has, lymphoma.
Oh, I'm so sorry. So,
so we are oh, I didn't even I didn't plug it. Sorry. One sec. Folks, if if you wanna help out, we set up a, give Send Go account for Charlie and the surgery that is gonna be having next week. So if you're interested in getting on board with that, it's givesendgo.com/Charlie'ssurgery.

(14:11):
And, if you would check that out, we really appreciate any donations you can make to kind of help us out to, defray
some of the costs. It's gonna cost us, like, dollars 3,500
for the surgery.
But it's, it's about maybe that big on the top of his head,
and it started off as a as a as a little scab. Now he has allergies, and he gets allergy shots. He gets, cytopoint.

(14:32):
And, usually I know when it's time for him to get a shot as he starts getting these little red welts
under his coat. And I saw this one on top of his head, and it looked like more like a scab than,
than a welt. And, I said, okay, well he's probably just playing around with it or whatever.
And, he ended up so I so I went to bed that night, got up the next morning, it was a little bit bigger,

(14:54):
and I said, alright, well, I'm gonna make the appointment today for the for the for the vet. Well, you know, we'll get a shot taken care of.
I went to work, and when I got home from work, there was blood everywhere.
It was all over the couch, all over the floor, the carp, everywhere. Because it's it got bigger through the course of the day, and it was bothering him, so he was rubbing it everywhere. Took him to the vet, they did a sample of it, the vet came in and said, I see some things in there that I'm not I'm I'm a little concerned about. Sent it out to the lab. Lab came back

(15:21):
and let us know that, they see,
they see some evidence of, lymphoma.
So
recommendation is to remove it, and that's what we're doing next week. But he's my buddy. You know? He's my baby boy. Of course. Wishing all the best to Charlie. I hope the surgery goes well, and he heals up just fine. Well, thank you. I appreciate that. I do. I really do. So,

(15:43):
let's see.
Yeah, I was looking over some numbers, and,
I don't I don't think the American people really understand just how much of our tax dollars go into
the funding
of
these
ridiculous experiments that get get done
or or or perpetrated
on on animals. And a lot of times,

(16:05):
the animals they use are animals that we would in some ways consider pets.
Like I immediately think of, Fauci with with his, sand fleas and the beagles. I mean that, when I heard about that, that made me sick to my stomach.
And,
it's terrible. And the numbers that I pulled up, and maybe you can correct me on this, I'm not sure, I don't know how accurate or how recent the information was, but $41,700,000,000

(16:30):
of American taxpayer money goes into this stuff?
Yeah. So that's that's the NIH budget.
$40.40
plus billion dollars a year.
Half of that, 47%
to be exact, but it's over $20,000,000,000
a year goes to experiments on animals, which, you know, the American taxpayer largely does not support.

(16:53):
You know, this is an issue. We have so many animal lovers out there just like yourself.
And the the polls and everything show that the American public doesn't want us to be testing on animals.
You know, you mentioned PETA gets kind of a
bad rep if if people don't know all of the stuff that we do. But really at the core of everything that we do, whether it's shocking or silly,

(17:19):
it's the very serious issue that we're trying to eliminate cruelty.
And that's, you know, by getting conversations started.
And it's something that, you know, when people look at the work that we do, they can find there's a a lot of common ground. And particularly on this issue, on animal testing,
you know, broad support
on on both sides of the aisle. It's not animal welfare is not a partisan issue. Exactly.

(17:43):
Yeah. So, yeah, the so that 20 plus billion dollars a year of our taxpayer dollars are being spent to
harm,
to kill
animals.
You know, it's dogs, it's monkeys, it's mice, it's rats,
a lot of different species.
And that doesn't
amount to much. So we we spend all that and still

(18:05):
ninety five percent of the drugs that come into human clinical trials fail, even though they've gone through the animal testing.
And then even those five percent that make it, a lot of them get recalled because of, you know, adverse side effects or things that the animal studies didn't detect. So
and and I you're right. I think I think the public is largely, unfortunately, unaware

(18:26):
of of that information.
Yeah. No. I exactly. Like, one of the things that came up in the video that I watched is, I don't remember if it was
I don't remember who, I don't remember which one of the three of you said it, but it was, it was that,
you know, testing on
an animal,
of course, is not always gonna work on a human being because we're not the same.

(18:50):
Exactly. It it doesn't, you know, it it there, you know, for all intents and purposes, I mean, yes, okay,
we're very close
to some species, some animals out there, like, there are certain things that were very close to to to pigs, and there are things that were closer to to primates, and there's things that were close to other it's it's it's like a whole mech a mix of different

(19:13):
so you you're I don't I never understood
how it is that we could test
these drugs on, and then automatically assume that because we're testing it on them. Okay. Will it work for the mouse? Let's let's let's try it on Joe. Yeah. Let's see if it works on Joe now.
But, one of the things that that that came up was, that I was looking at too was just,

(19:36):
at the, like the University of Pennsylvania, right? There's tremendous amount
of of waste,
of of resources there.
Especially when you like one of the things I was looking at was, this thing with
with, where they deprived monkeys
of water,
and then strapped them into chairs,

(19:56):
and left them there for hours.
Hours.
And then
showed them pictures of
political candidates.
I mean, what the hell is that?
What what were they trying to prove with that? I I don't I don't understand that. Can you,
enlighten me on this one?
It you know, the reality is that it's somebody

(20:20):
somebody who's gotten, you know, federal funding, National Institutes of Health funding for their career,
and they have a new idea, and they're already in the system with with federal funding. So the NIH says, sure. We'll we'll keep giving you money to do these curiosity driven experiments.
Right. These I mean, these monkeys were

(20:40):
you strapped in this chair, and they were given tiny sips of juice
for participating in this experiment where they were they were just looking at different political candidates trying to see if monkeys can predict who can win an election.
I mean, this is not a you know,
this is proof that biomedical research is not, like, an on animals is not a necessary evil. Nothing about that is necessary.

(21:06):
Right.
It it's just it's really a prime example
of that.
And you you meant you know, you mentioned all the differences between us and other animals. If you don't feed your dogs chocolate,
right, there are there are significant differences between
us and other animals. We're not, you know, we're at a level of science where,

(21:26):
you know, we're not in the 18 hundreds asking if a dog has a four chambered heart like we do. We are trying to develop really sophisticated
medications and treatments
for diseases,
and this requires human biology.
Right. And and I'm sorry, but I do give my dogs chocolate every now and then.

(21:47):
Oh, well, you know that a dog cannot eat the same level of amount of chocolate that a human can. You know? It's just another example of,
we're we're different. We're not mice. We've cured cancer in mice thousands of times,
but we we haven't cured cancer in humans. So I don't know. I I I still think that there is a cure for cancer that they're just not telling us about. But that that's

(22:09):
that's another that's another story for another time. Another another another day, another interview. They've they've gotta keep funding those mouse experiments. You know? That's it. See, my my dogs actually,
they they like they like almond biscotti with, the dark chocolate,
and, they like a little bit they light that with a little bit of espresso.
So
Refined palate your dogs have. They do. I I spoil them. I I I cook dinner for them every night. Oh. You know, it's just the three of us, so I you know, that doesn't hurt me to do it. So I, like for example tonight, they're they're getting braised pork chops. I'm just throwing it out. So, it's gonna be a, you know, I I I spoil them rotten because I love them. You know, they give me so much, I give it back to them, and I and I could never think,

(22:52):
like, it it troubles me when I think about how people can be so abusive
to their pets. I can't I can't. I I just I I
I was watching that video and,
the the one of the first doctors, doctor Wen, I think. What's her name?
Frances Chen. Chen. Chen. I'm sorry. Yeah. So she I mean I mean, I like, she broke my heart.

(23:14):
She Yeah. She she broke down so many times in that video that I I was like, I can't. I had to turn it off for a few minutes. I was I had to walk away from it. You know, I I felt I felt bad for her. But,
and then, you know, you read some of the comments on the YouTube thing about that stuff, and they're brutal. I don't know if you've seen some of those comments, but they're they're pretty bad. I don't think I've looked in a while, so I don't know if I should or not. No. Don't. Don't. Don't. Don't. Yeah. So I was so excited to get into this conversation with you that I completely went off my my notes of how I wanted to to actually talk to you. So I wanna kinda back up just a little bit. I'd like you to talk a little bit about your background,

(23:52):
how you got into the, the field that you're in,
and then tell us a little bit about a little bit more about PETA and how you came into working with PETA.
Yeah. Absolutely. So,
the the documentary, the the it's a very short film we've been referencing is called Test subjects.
It's available at testsubjectsfilm.com.
And it it goes through my story. But in a in a nutshell,

(24:16):
so I went to the University of Georgia. I was doing a PhD in neuroscience.
And in that process,
I was involved in experiments on animals.
And at first, you know, I'm I'm always been an animal lover myself. I went in thinking, you know, I get to spend time with mice and rats who are are very misunderstood animals. Like, rats are a lot like dogs if you've ever gotten to know one. They're they're very sweet, very curious, very smart.

(24:46):
So I you know, working with these with these animals, and it was through that process,
I I really came to see how broken the system is. I mean, I didn't you know, I just made up experiments
for my dissertation.
I was able to kill
some 200 animals to complete this research,

(25:08):
which had no
implications
for human health. It was just curiosity
stuff.
I saw animals that
dehydrated and and we had to euthanize because somebody put the cage in the wrong way and that the rat couldn't access the water.
You know, I I just saw horrible things happening to animals

(25:29):
with very little
oversight
and very little
benefits to to those experiments.
So
that experience really turned me,
into wanting to change that paradigm so that, you you know, not only do animals no longer have to suffer, but we're doing science that's more meaningful.

(25:51):
And, you know, students like myself
don't go into that and and have those same experiences that I did because,
you know, we're just taught to
completely desensitize
ourselves
to what we're doing, you know, treating animals like objects to be used. And,
you know, it does something to you psychologically

(26:14):
to kind of shove all that down.
So I
I decided to hop on over to the the
animal rights and animal welfare side. And a lot of people don't know this about PETA as well, so we have the largest scientific
staff of any animal welfare organization.
Really? We work, in every area where animals are used,

(26:36):
you know, in in every field, but every area of science. So, you know, testing for chemicals,
you know, the
courses that,
medical students have to take to to learn surgeries,
basic curiosity research.
We have experts in all of those fields,
and

(26:57):
working mostly behind the scenes,
with policymakers,
companies,
legislators, universities
to to shift this paradigm, you know, towards better research methods?
Well, I I you know, it's
The more I researched in preparation for today, you know, the the the better more of a pre an appreciation I have

(27:21):
for what the organization itself does.
You know?
So I I
And and I keep thinking back to my end. My my kids here. You know, I I I don't know. I I I can't see myself
doing anything that would harm them, and I I'm just I just I don't know. I can't wrap my mind around
how,

(27:42):
as a student coming out of school, you're working towards,
advanced degrees,
and
they they could just put you in a situation where even even though, you know, you might
ethically object to the whole thing and say, I don't know about this.
They hold that piece of paper over your head. Yes. You know, it's like it's like, the sword of Damocles. It's like, you know, you you you you if you want it, you gotta do this. If not, then, you know, it's this thing that's gonna disappear, and then everything that you worked for for your entire career

(28:11):
up to that point
is basically worthless.
And, you know, I I do have to applaud you and and and the other doctors that I saw in the video for standing up for you. Right? Yes. I understand. It's like some of the comments we're saying on on YouTube about, you know, well, nobody put a gun to their head and made them stay there and do the the work. But I I I

(28:31):
I understand though that you get, you know, there there's more of a punch
to the message you're trying to bring
with that degree behind you. So, yeah, you may have had to suck it up. Look, I I I worked for for New York City for twenty five twenty four years. I worked in law enforcement. I saw a lot of horrible things, and I and I took part in a lot of things that I did not necessarily agree with.

(28:53):
But you do it because
you're you're looking to expand. You're looking to build on yourself. You're looking to, you know and then take that information, take that knowledge and use it for better.
And, you know, I applaud you guys for doing that and standing on your principles. You know, it it took it probably took a it was probably very hard for you to to step away from,
or or even contemplate stepping away from, something you've worked for for so long and,

(29:19):
to try to,
You know, and Stand your ground on that. I think that's that's amazing. One second that Charlie's at the door.
Sure
Yeah. You gotta let him in.
He's he's just standing there looking at me.

(29:39):
Oh,
yeah. I mean, thank you so much. It's you know,
people can say a lot of things. I would have done it differently. I would never have done that, and and good for them.
But when you enter the system, there's
there's a chain of command. There's a hierarchy, and you're told
if you wanna excel in science, if you wanna do life saving research, this is how we do it. And if you can't suck it up and,

(30:04):
you know,
chop off some mouse heads,
then you shouldn't be in science.
And, you know, I if I had to go back, I would have done things differently. I would have, you know, done a PhD in in organs on chips or cool human methods without the suffering. Right. But I'm glad that I can at least use that experience now to to advocate for change.

(30:29):
And, yeah, you know, breaking those ties,
there's only, like, one person from my graduate program that still talks to me, my
major professor. Oh, there he is. Hey, buddy. Hey, buddy. Say hi.
Oh, yeah. Oh.
Yep. I know. Those Frenchy noises.

(30:49):
Tired. Yeah.
Yeah. So this is this is two two days in a row you came on the show.
Oh, that's good stuff.
Yeah.
Yeah. My my
my advisor refused to walk me at graduation.
So I just didn't didn't walk across the stage with all the fancy robes that you get. I mean, and that's not a huge deal, but it's still these

(31:15):
just signs that you're kind of being ostracized.
Yeah. I was actually gonna ask you about that too. That's why I'm glad you brought it up. Oh, hey, sweetheart.
My girl's here.
Let me bring her up so you can meet her. Oh, yes.
So this is this is the big sister?
Oh.
That's Beanie. She's she's much quieter.

(31:36):
Yes. You don't have as much to say as your brother.
Yeah. She's a good girl. Sweet girl.
Oh, you're cutting the headphones.
Alright. Sorry.
Alright. No. That's the best interruption you can have.
Absolutely. For sure.
So,
so I I have some some things here that, that your office sent over to me.

(32:00):
Things that,
that that you would be interested in talking about, and, I saw something in all of them that had again, I love dogs, so this has to do with the,
breeding dogs
specifically to have some kind of a a a muscle problem or or

(32:20):
or do you talk about that? I mean, what what is that? Yeah. So these are actually experiments that,
PETA got stopped.
So,
that that's the good news. But the the backstory is that at Texas A and M University,
there was an experimenter there named Joe Kornegay who had, for forty years, been breeding golden retrievers

(32:44):
and German shorthaired pointers and a few other types of dogs to have muscular dystrophy. So this is a disease where the muscles,
really kind of just waste away.
It it's a it's a devastating disease.
It you know, it's genetic. It mostly affects young boys. We need a cure for muscular dystrophy. Mhmm. But in forty years of of he would take dogs who had the the genetic defect and breed them together and keep them in the laboratory and do experiments.

(33:15):
No no results in forty years came came out of that. And you had you know, we had a whistleblower
actually
send video from the laboratory, and, you know, the dogs can barely walk.
They're drooling because their tongue muscles
don't work well anymore, and they have to have this eat this gruel, which just hangs off of their mouth and can cause skin problems.

(33:40):
And and, you know, just just a horrible situation.
No one nothing anybody would want to see. But,
you know, PETA
released the investigation,
and, after a few years of campaigning, the those experiments are are no longer happening at at Texas A and M. Well, I thank God for that. I mean, that that's that's
that's that's just

(34:00):
it's horrible. And then then I was reading also about this, puncturing mice's mice intestines so that bacteria can leak into their abdominal cavities.
And the purpose of that is to do what?
The the purpose is supposedly to study sepsis.
So,
sepsis,
not everybody's all that familiar with it, but it's a condition where, you know, you have an infection or you have an injury,

(34:23):
and then your your system, the whole body kinda goes haywire. You know, they kinda go into shock. Organs start failing.
It's a very deadly condition.
But to do these experiments,
which
there have been
research paper after research paper showing that
sepsis in mice because one area mice are so different from us is their immune systems. You know, we don't live with our heads an inch off the ground. Our immune systems need to be different than mice.

(34:52):
Mouse sepsis does not compare to human sepsis at all. There was one study showing it's, like, close to random,
you know, the genetic response between human and mice. You might as well flip a coin.
But to do these experiments,
they,
you know, slice open a mouse's abdomen,
puncture their intestine with a needle so that fecal matter leaks out, and then sew the mouse back up, and then wait for them to go into shock.

(35:19):
It's a very painful,
disease. All the mice die at the end of the experiments.
At Texas A and M, all the dogs were killed at the end of the experiments, so they could be dissected.
But these sepsis experiments, again, going on for decades,
the NIH continues to spend billions of dollars a year on them.

(35:41):
And we've actually sued NIH. It's a first of its kind lawsuit that says, you know, their decision to keep
funding these horrible experiments on mice goes against some of their mandates.
So that's a lawsuit that that's ongoing right now. And, I mean, in some of these experiments, there were some at the University of Virginia where they did this procedure to mice, and then they sewed two mice together

(36:05):
so that they shared a bloodstream.
Oh my god. And they would give a treatment to one mouse and then see how it affected you know, they're they're sewn together. Like, it's just stuff that from horror movies. Oh, I was gonna say, it's that's like watching, like like, a Frankenstein movie or something. Exactly.
I I just don't get it. I I I And this is this is all taxpayer funded. So Yeah. Well, yeah. That's another yeah. Yeah.

(36:30):
Well, thank thank god for Doge. Right? So
You know, we're finally seeing some somebody
calling the NIH to be accountable
for what they're doing.
You know,
I I think there are ways we could go about defunding things that may be a little bit more evidence based, and I think, you know, as this plays out, that might end up that way.

(36:54):
But, you know, some of the stuff getting cut needed to be cut.
I agree. And I there's a lot more that needs to be cut too. But, I'm looking I'm looking at this, information here on the, on actually the PETA's website.
Here's the NIH by the numbers. Right? So you have,
the amount of taxpayer money fund NIH annually 41,000,000,000,

(37:15):
almost 42.
Amount of taxpayer payer money NIH directed to funding for animal and non animal research projects in 2020 was 37,500,000,000.0.
I'm sure that's I'm sure it's higher now.
Amount of NIH research project funding that pays for experiments using dogs, cat dogs, rats, monkeys, mice, and other animals, 47%.

(37:36):
So almost half of the budget goes to that.
And, 19 like you said, about 20,000,000,000,
each year spent on,
experiments using the animals.
And then,
it it it really breaks it down into much more specifics. Like, the number of monkeys used was,
3,300
monkeys. I'm rounding the numbers.

(37:58):
Number of monkeys imprisoned but not used.
What does that mean, imprisoned
and not used?
So, many animals, monkeys,
dogs, mice, rats, all the species, there are companies
and
sometimes in university or government laboratories, they are bred to just be available
when they might be

(38:19):
need needed for experimentation.
So you have, you know, animals who are just sitting in cages.
A lot of times, these animals end up being euthanized
after just a lifetime
each because they they never needed that animal.
So, yeah, these are these are animals where experiments aren't actively being performed on them, but they're, you know, they're living in a cage in a laboratory

(38:44):
waiting to be experimented on.
Bats, which I don't really care about bats, but,
bats, 414.
Ferrets,
77.
I mean, even two for sheep is too much.
But I found this category,
quite interesting. Misery and privation

(39:05):
from cradle to grave.
Amount of space given to a to a macaque in a laboratory is 4.3 square feet. There's really nothing.
No. When you think about the the span of the territory of these animals in the wild,
and it's, you know, like you're living in a in a shower stall. Right. Because it says, the natural home range for a macaque is over five square miles, and we were putting them in five in in four square feet.

(39:28):
I mean, that's that's
that's torture.
That really It is. It really is. And I'm not saying to be dramatic, but it's really what that's exactly what it is. Well, I mean, even, you know, the experiments
obviously are, you know, you can describe any of them, and and you can see that they're torturous. But the very existence
in a laboratory, I mean, these animals are denied

(39:48):
everything that's meaningful and natural to them as a species just being in the laboratory. Right. I mean, animals
need love, and they need they need,
they need contact. You know, just like just like any other, like, species on the planet. You know, every
everybody needs something like that. Everybody needs some kind of contact, and you're depriving these, and they don't understand what's happening to them. They're just,

(40:12):
I don't know. The more now, sometimes the more I think about these things, you know, the more angry I get at it. And it's it's Yeah. I know I'm I know I'm smiling. Welcome to my world. Yeah. I I I can imagine and and and you know, I I'm I'm really happy though that, you know, you got yourself out of
one side of it, and you're on a better side of it. And, I I again, I do appreciate that immensely.

(40:33):
There was something else that I had wanted to ask you about.
Let me see where was it.
PETA's research modernization
now proposal. Okay. So,
so can you explain that exactly what it exactly what it is to us, and and help us understand how this is going to be,
how this is really gonna bring up

(40:56):
better research methods and and more relevant to what what human beings need compared to Exactly. The waste that's been going on.
Yeah. So this is this is the the good news that, you know, the happy part of the interview. So,
you know, the animals are are still being used in in these horrific ways, but the good news is we now have so many tools and technologies

(41:18):
to be able to
study, you know, human biology.
We can take, like, skin samples from a patient with cancer or with Alzheimer's disease,
use those those cells from the skin sample,
put them in a dish, grow them.
You know, there's things called organs on chips and organoids, which you could look at the cells under a microscope,

(41:40):
and they're no different than if they came from a human body. And you can test drugs and things like that. We have
AI is doing fantastic things, adding to these technologies,
imaging, all of those great things. So what research modernization
now does
is it says it it's a road map essentially
to phase out animal testing and phase in these methods. It doesn't say, you know, all animal testing has to end tomorrow, although,

(42:08):
we would love to see that just for for the ethical
standpoint alone. Agree.
But
we understand that there's there can be steps to this. So the re research modernization
now pretty much says we stop doing what doesn't work. So there are areas where the experiments on animals have failed 100%

(42:29):
of the time to lead to anything for humans. That's sepsis,
Alzheimer's disease, HIV
vaccines.
Those areas where we've know and we've tried for decades and we know the animal models
don't match what happens in humans, we need to to stop funding animal experiments
for those.
It involves, you know, really looking at all the scientific evidence. Because when when the NIH funds grants,

(42:55):
there is no one sitting down to say,
okay. Before we fund this grant, let's look at what what this animal model, this mouse model of Parkinson's disease has gotten us so far before we fund some more. So putting those kind of of checks and audits and safeguards in place.
And there are a couple other steps really just, you know, stop doing what doesn't work,

(43:18):
fund what does work,
you know, look at the whole research landscape, weigh the harms to animals against the benefits because no one's actually saying,
you know, there's a
a 5% benefit of this helping humans, but there's a % benefit that you're gonna make an animal

(43:38):
suffer tremendous,
tremendous pain and misery
and then kill them. You know? No one's weighing those against one another. And then, you know, educating and training young scientists,
like like the scientists I was when I entered graduate school in these
really innovative
methods for for doing research so that that
they're not being sold this message that you have to experiment on animals to be to be an excellent scientist because you don't. So research modernization now, that's a lot, but it does all of that. And it's it's really a road map that we're trying to push

(44:13):
to help put US biomedical research
out of, you know, the dark ages and into the twenty first century. Does does Europe actually, do a lot of animal testing? I would you know that? I I I'm not sure. I I didn't see anything in in the research that I was doing prior to that
to answer that question. But,
how far behind are we in this?

(44:35):
Well,
yeah. You're there's still a lot of experiments on animals going on in Europe, in The UK, and in other countries as well.
We actually
PETA has entities all over the world. We have
this re this road map for The UK, for the EU. We have Germany, India.
You know, it's it's going on over there. But where Europe is kind of excelling a bit in this area is that

(44:59):
The UK and The Netherlands, for example,
have
really are really investing a lot in non animal research right now. The Netherlands said it wanted to be, you know, the leader in
in non animal science and technology.
But The US, I think last year's
NIH
compared to that 47%

(45:20):
spent on experiments on animals,
point 7%
was spent on their program
for non animal research.
So so, yeah, it it's it's going on in other countries as well.
And this may be an interesting fact. I'm not sure if it was in the information we sent you, but our tax dollars are actually funding animal experiments done overseas where there is no

(45:46):
US oversight where we never set foot in those laboratories.
Yeah. And, we have a bill.
Troy Nell's and Dyna Dynatitis have a bill in congress right now called the CARGO Act, sees animal research grants overseas, which would
make it so that NIH cannot fund experiments on animals in other
countries where there is no we have no oversight, no recourse,

(46:10):
and no no investigations
or,
inspections of those laboratories.
Yeah. No. That wasn't in the information that that that you guys sent over, but, I was I was aware of it. So it and and I'm I'm aware of the Cargo Act.
I actually,
I think I forget how long ago it was, but, it was fairly recent. I think it was right before I heard from you guys,

(46:34):
that it actually I was looking at something online,
and there was a link to it, and I was like, oh, what's this? I clicked on it, and I was kinda reading about it. And then just I think a few days later,
you're when somebody from your office reached out to me, and I was like, that's okay. Well, yeah, okay. Let's do that then, because that's Something in the universe was working through us. It all it all pulled it together.

(46:54):
And, I I was interviewing,
I don't like calling it interviews. I like I like just to chat, you know, we're just having a conversation.
You know, I I was I was having a conversation yesterday with with somebody else,
on the show, and
and we were talking about, you know, these things and and how
how interesting it is that, you know, you could have a different point of view

(47:18):
on certain things, but there's always that one common ground that you come on. You know, I think and that's I think that's something very important, especially, I know this we're not really this isn't really about politics, you know, the whole show. The the our conversation here, but
but I think
universally speaking, in the world of politics, I I think this is the type of things that need to come about, you know. We may not agree on everything, but there's some common ground someplace we gotta find that common ground and talk about it, you know. And,

(47:47):
this I was really looking forward to sitting down talking to you. And I and I will say this, when, I I I had emailed your, one one of your assistants, and and I said, okay, I need, you know, for the for the show notes, I need a a a headshot, I need a bio.
I wasn't expecting
what I got.
You know, I I I I was honestly expecting I was honestly expecting

(48:08):
some like
frazzly haired,
you know,
gray haired, you know,
old lady basically.
That was that was that was, you know, like the typical,
character ex characterization
of of what, an animal rights person would be.

(48:30):
And,
very surprised. So,
take it as it is. And, you know, and I'm and it's it's great that it it's it
the point of it is that it's great that that it's it's a young generation
that's working on these things,
that are devoting their life to it, and are able to and and are gonna be around for a long time

(48:52):
doing this kind of work, you know? And and I hope I really do hope that that that the footprint that you're gonna leave is gonna be picked up by somebody else, and it's gonna continue on until all of this nonsense has stopped altogether. You know? Look, I I
I'm a meat eater. I love it. You know? So I I don't agree with that portion of what Peter stands on. But, you know,

(49:15):
I certainly do not wanna see them tortured. I certainly do not wanna see them abused and deprived of things and, and of of a good life, or or just a natural life.
You know? And, and I think that's where, you know, whether you're left, you're right, you're in the middle, wherever you are, you gotta come together on something like that. I mean, that,
I mean, what do what do we become

(49:37):
if we
turn a blind eye to
the animal world. Okay. Here's an example. Alright. I don't I don't know where you stand,
religiously or what your religious affiliation is,
but there's there's actually
there's a passage of scripture
in your bible
that says

(49:57):
that a righteous man regardeth the life of his beast.
You know, and
so,
do you see where I'm going with that? I mean Yeah. I mean, there there's actually a really interesting
you might be interested in the documentary
Christ I think it's called Christpiracy.

(50:18):
But it it talks about how,
you know, there there's so much in the bible that
that says that we need to treat
animals the
way you know, and
they there's always a passage brought up that we have dominion over the animals, but we're you know, it's not necessarily
that we are supposed to do with them whatever we like. We're we're guardians. We're protectors,

(50:42):
and and that's kind of Well, it's the same thing it's the same thing environmentally. You know?
You know, if you go scripturally speaking, you know, if if if you believe
the Bible, you believe all that, and I do. I'm a born again Christian, you know, all disclosure.
You know, I believe that God gave us the Earth to do with it as we need to do with it, but not to do it to

(51:04):
destroy it.
You know, we're supposed to be responsible
caretakers of what he has given us,
you know, and,
we're just not doing that. We're not that
as a society, as a whole, and and it's not just, you know, planetary environmentalism,
and it's it's it's in the animal kingdom as well. It's

(51:26):
So, you know, I I really do appreciate. Again, I I I never really looked into exactly where PETA stood on a lot of things.
And
after speaking with your staff and getting prepped for this, I have such a greater appreciation for what you guys are doing. And I and I really do wanna thank you for that. And, Thank you so much. And, I just hope that you guys keep it going.

(51:47):
And I hope that everything,
I hope that we finally will come to a point where this just
ridiculous
waste of money,
waste of life
comes to an end.
It it it does need to.
I I think we will. You know, all of the young scientists I speak to, there is such an interest in,

(52:09):
you know, non animal research. They don't wanna do animal testing. I have a lot of hope for the next generation
of scientists that we can we can move to a better way. And I think, you know, research modernization now just wanna plug it real quick. If anyone wants to learn more about,
the the road map, you can go to peta.org/rmn.
And you can even there's a form there. You can contact your member of congress to,

(52:34):
let them know you want them to enact a bill for this. I've actually I'm in DC right now. I've been on the hill,
trying to get some support for for this plan. Have a had a lot of great conversations,
with members of congress over the last few days. So,
they need to hear from from from you, though. Yeah. That absolutely absolutely true. You, and there's nothing wrong with reaching out to your congressperson and talking about these things. I I advocate that all the time.

(53:00):
I I I wasn't prepared for,
that website, so I didn't have a have something made up for it, but I do have this to check out, the testsubjectsfilms.com.
You do need to check that out.
And it it and like I said, it's it's not a long video. It's only about sixteen
minutes or so,
yeah, more or less. And I'm sorry that's Charlie snoring.

(53:21):
I don't know if you I don't know if you hear him, but he's
he's laying on my foot.
Oh. He's sleeping. He's my buddy.
So ever and it's funny too because ever since I took him to the vet and they checked him out, he's been so much more attached
to me than he normally is. So Sure. He doesn't know what's happening. He wants to you're his safety.

(53:42):
So that makes sense. My little guy. Yeah. If if if I knew it wouldn't mess up my whole system, I'd move the camera so I could
put him on. But but if I do that, I'm gonna screw the whole thing up. You need like a camera in camera where you can see Charlie in there. You know, so
I so I do this okay. So, you know, we're just gonna chit chat now. So how much time do you have? You have a few more minutes? Yeah. I'm I'm good. Okay. Alright. Cool.

(54:08):
So this is like a home studio for me. I I I built this I I bought I bought a house,
and, I turned one of the bedrooms into a studio.
But to be quite honest,
most of it is held together with spit and duct tape.
So, you know, I but
this is, like, my favorite room because it's so quiet in here,

(54:29):
you know? And,
they love it in here. And Charlie
routinely comes in here, and he has his two spots that he likes to sleep in.
One is right over here to to my left.
No. Yeah. It's my left. The camera screws me up. So I'm over he's over here to my left, and right now he's on my foot on the left.
My little girl sleeps

(54:50):
over there,
and there's like a little
like a like a dead space here where I have all the wiring and everything, and I have the the tower light.
And for some reason, she likes it over there, he likes it over here, and if he goes over there,
she gets mad,
and you hear her, like she'll she'll, like, snap at him. It's Myspace.

(55:10):
Exactly.
And and, you know, but Charlie I don't know. I love this guy. I really do. You know? And it's it's funny. The the story behind it is, I had it we had another French bulldog, my my ex wife and I, we had a we had another French bulldog
who passed away.
And,
I left Bean alone for the you know, and she was never alone. She was always always had,

(55:33):
our our other dog was Wilbur. So we we gave him great names. Wilbur
Yeah. Got Charles Dexter,
and then, Winnie's name, Beanie's name was actually Winnie Jean.
But when we brought her home, she was literally this big.
Oh. So we called her Bean,
and it just stuck. But My my dog who's passed now, her nickname was was her her name was Ella Bean, so we always called her. Oh, that's cute. I like that. But, but,

(56:01):
but Charlie is just he he like, I
when when my ex
brought him home,
I was like, no. I don't want another dog. And and like I I I we got we got her. I, you know,
Wilbur was my ride or die, man. He he I used to drive, and he was just he would sit on the arm rest
in between, and if I didn't have my arm around him while I was driving, he would nudge my arm

(56:25):
until I put it around him.
And then,
but this little guy, man, he just, I don't know. He just he just grabbed my heart, like
He would sleep. He would sleep with me. I would I would sleep with them on the couch sometimes.
Because he would cry at night in the in the because I would create them at at at the younger age. This way, just kind of keep control and so they don't make a mess all over the place.

(56:47):
And then the more the more, trained they became, the less restricted I was with them in, you know, crating them.
But he would cry all night,
and I couldn't hack it. You know, I just did. So I would either sleep on the floor next to the crate
with him,
or I would take him out of the crate, and I would lay on the couch or or on a recliner, and I would have him sleeping on my chest

(57:13):
all night.
And so little by little, this little
monster,
you know, worked his way into my heart, and I he's my he's my pal, man. And, like, I don't I don't care. And I I wish that there were more people, because where I live
alright. I live in Eagle Pass, Texas. Alright. So I'm right on the border with Mexico, and, you know, so it's

(57:35):
it's a it's a different world than what I'm I'm used to. I lived in New York. You know, I grew up in I was born and raised in in Brooklyn. I I worked for I worked in Manhattan. Actually, I worked in all five boroughs.
But, I finished my career working in Manhattan. I lived on Staten Island, and then I came here.
And,
you know, different world altogether. Here,
it drives me crazy because there are so many loose and stray dogs.

(58:00):
Yeah. It's a problem in the South for sure. It it truly Like, so for ex like my Somebody lives across the way from me has, I don't know how many dogs they have.
And what they like to do is they'll throw their gate open,
and their dogs are just kinda wander the neighborhood. So when I I first
moved into this house,
I was in the process of renovating it, and I had gone to the market, and I came back, and I I pulled my car in the driveway, and I'm taking my stuff out and bringing it into the house.

(58:28):
And
I at the corner of my eye, I see it I see something, and I'm just assuming it's Charlie
or or Beanie.
So I and I and I and I turn around, it's it's an English bulldog
that just walked into my house. I'm like,
where the hell this thing come from? You know?
So,

(58:48):
and then Charlie comes in. You know an English bulldog is a little bit bigger than a French bulldog. Yeah.
But Charlie has the heart of a German shepherd.
You know, he really does.
He came charging in here
and stood in between me and and the English bulldog.
Chest out, head back ears straight up, like, you know, protecting.

(59:11):
And he does that with with Beanie also, even though he's the younger,
he protect he protects her.
She tortures him. She
she she
not not to be gross or anything, but but sometimes what she'll do is like, he'll just be laying on the floor, or laying on the couch or something, and and she'll just she'll jump up on the couch, and and sometimes like I'm watching them to to see what she's gonna do,

(59:33):
and she'll look at me, like she'll give me a side eye,
and she'll just sit there and wait until I turn around, but I'm still watching,
and then she'll jump on him,
and she will basically,
you know,
claim dominance. So you serve her, serve her dominance. Yeah. Yeah.
And then he just lays there, and he and he's like lays there on he'll just lay on his back or something like that, his tongue hanging out of his mouth.

(59:59):
Yes, I'm talking I'm talking about you, yes.
You know, but but they are hysterical, and and I
and I I can't understand, like, how people could just open the door, let their dogs out, run around the neighborhood,
you know, even cats. I'm not a big cat fan, but, you know, I would never hurt one. You know, I would never wanna see anything happen to one. Don't ever ask me to own one, but

(01:00:21):
I did once.
I did once. I I did have a cat once, and her name was Delilah.
Man, I hated that cat.
Oh.
At at one point, I had
I had a, a miniature pincher.
I had Delilah.
I had two saltwater aquariums.
And I had parakeets. Two parakeets.

(01:00:44):
That's a lot. Yeah. It was. And I worked overnights, and I was working in law enforcement, and I was only on the job for maybe
not even two years.
So you know, I got the
crap end of the stick and, you know, I had to work all the crazy shifts and hours and whatnot. So I was on an overnight swing, and I was dead tired. It was just one of those crazy nights and I could not wait to get to bed. So

(01:01:08):
I got got in from work and,
crawled into bed and everything was nice and quiet. It was like
I would get I would get home like around 07:38 o'clock in the morning, and I just crawled to bed. And then,
I'm laying there and I'm sleeping and all of a sudden I hear
a crash,
a hiss,
a bark,
a screech,

(01:01:29):
and then water.
You know when you hear water running? Yeah. Yeah.
So I jumped up out of the bed,
Now, you gotta picture this here. I'm I'm jump I'm wearing a tank top, underwear, and I'm jumping out of bed like a lunatic because I hear all this noise. What happened was
the dog was the dog chased the cat

(01:01:49):
because the cat was going after the birds.
When the dog started chasing, this is what I put together. When the when the dog when the dog started chasing the cat, she jumped, knocked the bird cage
into one of the saltwater aquariums, which cracked Oh. Which broke the glass on the saltwater aquarium.
So I had Oh. And then, of course, broke the broke the birdcage open. So I had

(01:02:13):
I had just the picture of it.
I had the dog chasing the cat, the cat chasing the birds, I had fish flopping on the floor,
and a brand a brand new wall to wall carpet installed ruined Oh. Because it soaked up all the salt water,
and hundreds of dollars of of fish
and stuff just everywhere

(01:02:33):
dying dead, can't do anything with them anymore.
And,
but you know what? I was angry. Yes. I was, yeah, I was annoyed. Yeah. But you know what? I laughed when it was all said and done because I mean, that's that's just
it's almost like something from a from a sketch, you know. Oh, absolutely. It's totally Comedy movie. I've always said that my life need to have needs to have a laugh track. You know? Always have to have something going on in the background

(01:02:58):
because it's it's just the way it is. But, but yeah. But living here though in Eagle Pass, like I said, there's there's a lot of that,
they I I found I find that the the culture here is is not so much
They don't
like Fawn over their pets like I do, you know, and
like,
I
I had somebody here for for dinner,

(01:03:20):
one evening
and, like I said, I cooked for my dogs.
You know, and and we we were gonna have dinner together. And so
we sat down at the table, and and and my guest was like,
what are you what are you doing with them? What do you mean? What am I doing with them? What am I doing?
She was, well, we're gonna eat. Yeah.
She's like, aren't you gonna put them outside?

(01:03:43):
No. No? Why would I put them outside?
Well, because
I don't like to eat in a in a house with dogs.
Well, then you can leave.
And it's exactly what I said, and she will is it, excuse me?
I said, if you don't if you have a problem with with these two, you can
There's a door, you can go. She goes, you're really throwing me out? Yeah.

(01:04:07):
If you don't wanna eat,
you can go.
Then I took her plate,
I put it on the floor,
and gave it to the kids.
I'm sorry. I will choose my dogs.
Yes, mommy. I know. I remember.
She was mean.
I will choose my dogs
over a human any day.

(01:04:27):
Because they It's a
it's a similar culture, you know, and PETA's head headquarters is in Norfolk, and in that area
of, Southern Virginia and Northern North Carolina, it's similar. You know? People's dog people keep their dogs outside on chains,
horrible conditions. And,
that's something else PETA I think a lot of people don't know about PETA is we have this community animal program where we are on the ground Mhmm. In the area around our headquarters.

(01:04:55):
We give free dog houses, free spay and neuter,
veterinary care to people who could could not otherwise afford it or will not seek it themselves for their animals. We have animals confiscated. We have criminal charges brought when there's animal abuse.
But, yeah, we're we're on the ground in that area, you know, because it is it's similar to what you're describing. Well, you'd have a field day out here. Yeah. We actually do. You can you can go on a, like, a field,

(01:05:23):
be out in the, in the field with our community animal project and, like, that's something we as staffers and and other people can have helped with. Oh, come on down. To go
yeah. I'll show you where to go.
But Yeah. Doctor Toronto, thank you. I just wanna say it again. Thank you so much for taking the time to be with us here tonight, and thank you for all that you guys are doing over there. Can you let just give us an idea of how, somebody could, help in what you guys are working on and any website information, any email or or social medias that you wanna give out?

(01:05:57):
Floor is yours.
Thank you. Yeah. So,
the main issue is our is our research modernization
now. You know, if it if it gets inactive, we would end all animal testing,
through that process.
So the the information about that is available at peta.org.
That's peta.org/rmn.
And like I mentioned before, you can fill out our form on there to let your know let your member of congress know that this is an issue that you care about.

(01:06:24):
And if you'd like to to follow our more science y division on social media, we're SAO science, science advancement and outreach,
and we have a website,
scienceadvancement.org
as well. Well, that's great. Okay. Thank you very much. Again, doctor Tranel, thank you so much for taking the time. And anytime you wanna come on and give us an update on what's going on with any legislation you guys are working on and sponsoring and backing and especially with cargo and

(01:06:49):
modernization now any anytime you want to come back on? Just please reach out to me. Let me know. I would love to have you back again.
I really did enjoy this and again. I
just just researching for our conversation opened up my eyes to a lot of things that I was not aware of. And, you know, kind of changed my opinion on a few things about the organization in and of itself. So again again, I appreciate it. Thank you so very much.

(01:07:13):
Thank you, Joe. It's been wonderful. I've loved talking to you tonight. So thank you so much. Okay. You have a great night. And alright, folks.
So, let's, let's see.
What was it? I was gonna say something. I forgot what it was. What the crap?
Alright. Well,
doctor Trunnell,
from PETA, we did a really appreciate having her here. And it was this was really excite really interesting for me because,

(01:07:36):
like I said on the on on, when I was talking to her with her, and you you heard me, I I basically I
there was a lot of things that I was not aware of that PETA was involved in. And, you know, again, it's a
more of a left leaning organization. There's a lot of things that they do that I don't agree with, but there's a lot of positions that they hold that I do agree with. So and it's finding that common ground. So that's that's the important thing.

(01:07:58):
And, again, we really do appreciate her coming in. All of the information that she was talking about, we will be putting putting in the show notes, so you will be able to track it all down there. So, I think with that said, we're gonna stay we're gonna start to wrap this, this whole shebang up here. Alright, folks. So just wanna give a quick shout out to our executive producers, Wayne and, Rosanna Rankin. Thank you so much for all that you guys do to help us out.

(01:08:24):
Thank you to everybody that's been listening on the, modern podcast apps, pod, podcastgurufountain.fm.
Also, thank you to the folks that are streaming stats to us. Thank you very much. We appreciate that. And excuse me. We did get a boost. We got a, we got a boost to gram through the fountain app for 50 sets. So thank you so much for that. We really do appreciate it.

(01:08:46):
And if you'd like to get yourself involved in any of that stuff, just, head over to modernpodcastapps.com
or podcastindex.org
and download the apps. They are great. They're free. And, again, they're it's
they're so much better than legacy apps, like like Spotify and and all that stuff. Check them out. You really you'll really like them. Also, don't forget to follow us on our socials on x at Joru's

(01:09:10):
Instagram, not Joru's
minds,
Joe
Roux's. Also on,
Truth Social, don't forget to do Truth Social. Truth Social is
great app to be on, especially if you wanna monitor and follow what this administration is doing because they pretty much post it there,
right off the bat.
Also, if you would if you're interested in, becoming a guest or a host on a podcast, just use my link that's coming up right here. Joinpodmatch.com/joeroos.

(01:09:40):
Podmatch.com
is a great resource to use to, to book guests,
or become a guest yourself. So use my link right there on the screen. Join podmatch.com/joeroos
and, sign up. I use PodMatch all the time. We did not meet doctrinal through pod match, but at the same time,

(01:10:03):
Alex yesterday we talked to and Matthias Mueller,
on Friday, and pretty much all the guests we've had have been come through pod match. So pod join podmatch.com/joeroos
and get yourself on board there. And don't forget the alexjonesstore.com/joe
to get all of your vitamin supplements and some patriotic apparel like that.

(01:10:23):
And,
we, we would,
really appreciate if you did that because then we get 10
of every purchase. It comes right back here to the podcast, helps us fund
everything that we're doing here. Alright. Now if you're also interested in finding out more about the Texas Nationalist Movement, didn't talk about it tonight, but we will be on, tomorrow's show. So if you wanna get more information about the Texas Nationalist Movement and all these sovereignty movements that are are springing up around the country,

(01:10:50):
head over to texitnow.org.
That's texitnow.org.
Why that's scrolling? I don't know, but there it is. Texitnow.org.
And, also, don't forget to head over to our website, joeroos.com.
Head over to our website, joeroos.com.
Open up the, web form. Send us up any questions, comments, cares, concerns you have. Also, you can email us at info@joeroos.com.

(01:11:13):
That's info@joeroos.com.
Alright. Well, with all of that said, my friends, I think that it's about that time for us to say goodnight.
Don't forget to, join us tomorrow at our regular time at 8PM central,
nine PM eastern,
right here live on Rumble for the video and all of your podcast platforms,

(01:11:37):
that support podcast two point o. Alright, folks. Let's, make Texas independent again. Go podcasting.
Keep a steady stride,
and we'll see you tomorrow night.
Good night.

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