60: Ice Wisdom: Chuck Gridley on Inclusivity, Coaching, and Shaping Youth Hockey

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As the frost of the Erie Canal thaws into the warmth of inclusivity, Chuck Gridley, a true stalwart of New York's hockey community, shares his journey from ice-cold beginnings to nurturing the next generation of athletes. You'll find yourself captivated by tales of his transition from player to coach, and his profound advocacy for disabled athletes. Stand by, as Chuck weaves us through the victories and challenges of fostering a sports environment where every player, regardless of ability, has the chance to glide across the ice with pride.

Navigating the intricate web of youth hockey coaching, particularly the delicate dance with parent-coaches, reveals a landscape rich in passion but fraught with pitfalls. We uncover the delicate art of balancing personal aspirations with team success, as Chuck and I reflect on the ever-evolving role of parents in youth sports. From the sidelines of personal anecdotes to the frontlines of coaching education, you'll gain insights into how the fabric of team culture is stitched together, thread by passionate thread.

Finally, we lace up our skates to carve into the ice the ideals of competition, personal growth, and the essential elements of effective coaching. This conversation is a masterclass in the subtleties of communication and instruction, tailored to the individual athlete—because at the heart of every drill, every game, every triumph, is a child learning not just how to handle a puck, but how to navigate life's rink with resilience and grace. Chuck Gridley's wisdom is a beacon for parents and coaches alike, illuminating the path to a more positive, encouraging, and successful youth sports experience for all.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:52):
Silence.
Thank you, good eveningeverybody and welcome back to
the Podolsky Method podcast.
I'm your creator and host,coach Oya, I'm a Level 4 USA
Hockey certified coach, ownerand operator of a skate
sharpening shop called SharpSkate New York and a certified

(01:12):
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(01:58):
As you guys might know, we runprograms through fall, spring
and winter sessions 10 sessionsplus full gear for under $300.
It's a wonderful way to getinto the game.
And today I have a very specialguest, chuck Gridley, with me.

(02:18):
Chuck is a USA Hockey coachingchief for New York and National
Disabled Section.
He's the USA Hockey CoachingChief for New York and National
Disabled Section.
He's a CEP instructor and Chuckand I met at the Level 5
Coaching Seminar last May.
So, chuck, thank you so muchfor jumping on the show.

Speaker 2 (02:35):
Yeah, thanks for the invite, Ilya.

Speaker 1 (02:39):
Happy to be here, awesome.
So why don't we start?
If you could tell a little bitabout yourself?
Talk a little bit about whatwas it like growing up for you.
You know what sports you playedgrowing up.

Speaker 2 (02:50):
Yeah, I'd be happy to do that.
So I grew up in central NewYork, where I still live.
I live in a little town calledSkinny Atlas and I grew up not
too far from here and you know,winters in upstate New York are
usually not so much this year,but usually are pretty cold, and

(03:11):
so I ended up starting to playorganized hockey, I think when I
was 10.
But I played hockey before thata lot, you know.
Outdoors, on the local ponds,we used to play in the Erie
Canal, which was awesome.
Outdoors on the local ponds, weused to play in the Erie Canal,
which was awesome.
You used to be able to get on anice cold day when there was no
if there was two or three colddays and no wind the canal would

(03:32):
freeze over.
It didn't take too much forthat to happen because it was
still water and it's not thatdeep and you could skate for
miles with a puck, which was,you know, one of my fond
memories of starting out, youknow, working on the skills of
hockey and playing with mybuddies at the Erie Canal.

(03:53):
So I started playing organizedhockey when I was 10, which was
kind of late for a lot of thekids that I was playing with and
against but fell in love withit and ended up playing youth
hockey in a couple of differentorganizations at the same time,
unlike what happens these dayswhere people kind of bounce
around.
But I played with two differentorganizations in central New

(04:16):
York and played four years ofhigh school hockey and one year
of club college club hockeybefore I ended up leaving
upstate New York and for thewarm sunshine of South Carolina
and I finished up my bachelor'sdegree down there and I actually
played lacrosse down at theUniversity of South Carolina and

(04:39):
then didn't play for a coupleof years, didn't play hockey for
a couple of years and when wemoved back up we were in Philly.
My wife and I landed in Phillyfor 10 years and we eventually
moved back to central New Yorkin 1991.

(05:01):
And I got back into playing andI immediately got into coaching.
My son was five at the time andactually I think he was three
when we moved up here.
But he started playing when hewas five and I started coaching
him in baseball, soccer,lacrosse, hockey and just really
fell in love with coachinghockey and have been doing it

(05:22):
ever since with coaching hockey,and have been doing it ever
since and you know, at one pointthat's probably, I don't know,
27 or eight years ago now, Ican't remember I got involved
with USA Hockey as an instructorfor the initiation program and

(05:44):
kind of matriculated up.
I ended up uh getting involvedwith the ACE program, which is
kind of a pseudo version of thehockey director uh program in in
some of the other districts.
And then, uh, uh, at some pointI was uh asked to take over the

(06:04):
coaching education program inNew York and I've been doing
that for, I'm guessing, butsomewhere around 15 years or so.
So it's been a while and a lotof other involvement.
I've been on the board forSkiddy Atlas Youth Hockey.
I was on the board forsomewhere around 10 years,

(06:26):
pretty much held every positionon the board except for
president, which I never wantedto be.
It's one of, I think, one ofthe most thankless jobs.
It's got to be done and thankGod there are people that will
do it.
But I was coaching coordinatorand involved with tournaments
and et cetera, et cetera.
And now I'm involved withdisabled hockey.

(06:53):
I was asked to be the coach inchief not only for the District
of New York but also for all ofdisabled hockey throughout the
country.
I coach a sled hockey teamcurrently and I have for 10 or
12 years now and so because ofmy involvement with that, I was
asked to get involved as kind ofa liaison between the coaching

(07:14):
section and the disabled section, and then that just kind of has
grown and currently, actuallyjust as of this year, david Hoff
, who's actually a good friendof mine and the coach of the
national, our US national sledhockey team, paralympic team,
asked me, as well as Dan Brennan, to help put together clinics,

(07:44):
skill clinics, for folks thatare playing sled hockey
throughout the country.
So we're in the in the midst oforganizing sled hockey camps
for throughout the summerthroughout the country.
So that's another thing that'snot my plate at this point.

Speaker 1 (08:02):
Well, wonderful, once you have those, those, please
do share them with uh, with me.
I'll be happy to share themwith the group I did oh, that's
awesome yeah yeah, absolutely, Idid um I do donate to um the
warriors uh sweat hockey teams.
I actually had my old companydonate uh quite substantially to

(08:22):
um the warriors hockey inwashington dc that's great yeah
yeah, it's unbelievable.
A lot of those folks like comingback from military and god
forbid, I mean, unfortunatelythey come back injured or
otherwise and it's great thatthey can get back into the game
and and the game gives back tothem you, that they can use that

(08:44):
to get their footing back, youknow.

Speaker 2 (08:46):
A hundred percent, yeah, and you'd be surprised.
A number of those players thathave made it all the way to the,
the Paralympic team, thenational level, didn't
necessarily play hockey as a asa kid, you know.
Before they sustained theirinjury but got into hockey
afterwards they sustained theirinjury but got into hockey

(09:09):
afterwards.
The guys and women we have anational women's national team
as well.
I'm not as familiar with themas I am with the men's team and
I can tell you that those guysthat play on our national team
are just phenomenal athletes.
They may be missing a leg orthey may have a disability that
they've had from birth, but theyare superior athletes and the

(09:34):
best in the world.
I mean no one.
Unfortunately, we've gotten tothe point where no one really.
There's not a lot ofcompetition, even with Canada,
and so that's gotten to thepoint of almost being a problem
because they can't get the kindof competition.
They need to get better.
I shouldn't say they can't.
It's difficult and it would bebetter.

(09:56):
I would rather see them, quitehonestly, lose a few games
outside of the Olympics, theParalympics.
I'd rather see them lose a fewgames and be challenged a little
bit.
But it's a great bunch of guys.
The coaching staff is justphenomenal and had the
opportunity to work with themand it's really great to see,

(10:19):
and again, I think, what peopledon't realize.
I think a lot of people say, oh, you know those poor disabled
athletes?
They're not that at all.
They are world-class athletesand they treat the game and

(10:41):
their training as such.
They work as hard as anybodyelse at the top end of the top
level of the game that they playand, yeah, really proud to know
them and to be around them whenI am.
It's an awesome experience.

Speaker 1 (10:56):
Yeah, no, it's amazing.
I'm really glad you shared thatbecause I know that I do this
24-hour hockey tournament forcharity up in Dix Hills for the
last couple of years.
I've been fortunate enough tobe part of that through the
Rangers programming and you know, when you see Colton Moore or

(11:17):
Stephen Matteau trying to dosweat hockey against some of
these kids and they're just you,you know go around them in
circles.

Speaker 2 (11:26):
it's not as easy as it works I, I don't want to get
sidetracked, but an interestingstory.
Um, at least I find itinteresting and I've told the
story to my players, my sledhockey players, because we
always start practice, uh, witha little chaos, stick handling.
And every time we do it, um,before we do it, I always bring

(11:46):
them in at the beginning ofpractice and I'll say you know,
we're going to, we're going todo some chaos, stick handling,
as we always do.
And the reason we do this isbecause if you can't skate and
you can't stick handle, youcan't play hockey.
And you know, I think a lot oftimes their eyes roll in the
back of their head.
You know they're laughing at,you know, coach, telling them
the same thing over and overagain.

(12:07):
But we, not too long ago, maybea month, month and a half ago,
we played a pretty good ACHAclub team.
Syracuse University has apretty decent club team and
they've got some good playersthat you know probably could
play D3 at some colleges and Ithink they've done very well

(12:29):
this year.
So, anyways, we, you know wehad got extra sleds and went and
played them, which you know wedon't do that a ton.
But we happened to say yes tothis invite and we beat them
like 16 to nothing.
And you know, at the beginning,in the in the locker and the
players are like coach, you'renot going to call us off at this

(12:50):
.
What are you?
You're going to let us?
I said, listen, you guys can.
You can score as many goals asyou want this game I don't care,
and they were great sportsabout it.
But it wasn't like they weren'ttrying.
It was not like they weretrying.
And the next practice I broughtthe team in and I said you know
, I want to use that game lastSaturday as an example of what I

(13:12):
tell you all the time If youcan't skate and you can't stick
handle, you can't play the game.
I said no offense to any of you,but that team that we played
the other day, they know thegame way better.
You know, none of my playersever played hockey as a kid,
none of them.
They all started playing asadults.
Most of them are adults.
We only have two kids, youthplayers, on the team and I said

(13:34):
you know, they know the gamebetter than you do.
They've played it at a veryhigh level.
They've been coached very well,every single one of them, and
you destroyed them.
You destroyed them because youcan skate and stick handle in
sled hockey better than they can.
It's it's completely differentskillset and and so you know our
guys could skate and and andstick handle.

(13:56):
They couldn't, even though theyknew the game, they knew where
to be, they knew how to makeplays.
You know, they've practiced allof that.
We destroyed them and it was areally good example, just quite
by accident, of the fact thatand it's the same thing you know
that You're a hockey coach Ifyou can't skate, you can't stick
at all, you can't play the game.

(14:17):
So let's make sure that thosebasic skills are in place.

Speaker 1 (14:22):
Yeah, it seems so simple, simple right, like
everybody should think of it.
But not everybody does, no?
So especially.

Speaker 2 (14:29):
You know, if you didn't grow up playing new
sports, you didn't grow upplaying hockey.
It's not intuitive.
I guess that, hey, you need.
This is where this is the base.
This is the base that we got tobuild on right.
We're trying to learn the game.
There's a lot of individual andteam tactics.
We work on all that stuff, butif you can't do this, you can't

(14:52):
play, and this was just a reallyobvious example and I think it
made a huge impact too.
I think their eyes opened andthey realized, yeah, we do have
to work on this and get betterat it.

Speaker 1 (15:04):
Eyes opened and they, you know, they realize that,
yeah, we do have to work on thisand get better at it.
Yeah, and you know, talking alittle bit about coaching
education and coaching coaches,I know you mentioned, you know
you were a parent coach when youstarted and you know one
question I have for you is doyou feel that?
I was looking at some of thestatistics before this episode
and I know that this year we haduh over, I believe it's 61,700

(15:29):
coaches or so registered withusa hockey.

Speaker 2 (15:32):
So yeah, it was in that ballpark.

Speaker 1 (15:34):
I will trust your uh your research there yeah, and I
think I think it's great thatyou see a progressive increase
year over year, but do you thinkthat most of those coaches are
parents who are starting to getinvolved with their kid and then
they leave the game with theirkid?
Do we have any idea from ayouth hockey perspective on what

(15:56):
the retention looks like?

Speaker 2 (15:59):
Yeah, I mean, I think , anecdotally, I would say
you're right that the majorityof coaches that are working in
youth hockey at this point areparents, not all.
And you know, especially downby you, there's probably the
greatest percentage of paidcoaches that may not have a
child playing but for the mostpart, like in New York State,

(16:21):
which is the district that Iknow the most, most of our clubs
are either tier two or tierthree.
Right, they're not payingcoaches.
That's not happening.
Most of them don't have hockeydirectors.
You know, most of them are, atleast they started out community
based organizations.

(16:41):
That's changed.
I think that that format formathas kind of changed a little bit
, but there's still community,but there's still small
communities and there are clubsthat don't have, you know, three
or 400 players that areregistered with it.
Most of them in New York areprobably more and, again, this

(17:02):
is anecdotal, but I would saythat they're probably more in
the 150 to 250 range in terms ofnumbers.
And so, yeah, you're definitelydealing with mostly parent
coaches, right, Some of whomhave hockey background and some
of them don't, and you know, interms of how they end up or how

(17:34):
they absorb coaching educationand how they end up doing as a
coach.
I think some of the parentcoaches end up, you know, at
least for tier two, tier three,recreational hockey, hockey I
think they end up doing just asgood sometimes as the parent
coaches with a hockey background.

Speaker 1 (17:50):
But you know, it's kind of a mix, but you know, I
do think the majority of folksthat are coaching are parents
and have kids playing.
Yeah, and I think you know,right before the show, you and I
kind of touched a little bit onparent education, which kind of
, I guess, goes hand in handwhen we talk about parent

(18:11):
coaches or parents in general,and you know, trying to.
You know, the part that I foundmost difficult in my coaching
experience is marrying up theview from a coach's perspective
to a parent.
Right, a parent is looking attheir child as an individual and
as coaches we're looking atkids as a team.

(18:33):
Right, we're looking at themcollectively and we're putting
them into a slightly differentworld than, let's say, an
individual would.
So we still recognize theindividual skill and individual
development, but I feel likewe're looking at them as a unit
and you know who works betterwhere and things like that.
When, um, you know a parent as aparent, looking at just my

(18:55):
child, I'd be like, well, my kidshould be on, you know, first
line center and you know scoring77 goals a game, you know, and
so there's that little mix of.
I feel like there's that littledisconnect that happens in
purview, and so we were talkinga little bit about the
difficulty in educating parentsand do you see something that I

(19:18):
know?
Us Hockey has developed a lotof information, a lot of
instructions for the coaches atthis point, but do you see them
working on more of that parentdevelopment information?

Speaker 2 (19:31):
Yeah, and actually I didn't really mention this when
we were talking previously, butthat is in the works.
Some sort of parent educationprogram through USA Hockey is in
the works.
I hope I'm not talking out ofschool.
I don't know really anythingabout it.
I'm not involved in putting ittogether, I just know from being
involved with coachingeducation.

(19:52):
We meet all the time and thathas come up, and in fact I heard
I was talking to somebody elseabout something else and that
subject came up in the lastcouple of weeks.
So it's something that is.
I think everybody knows thatit's something that we at least
need to put out there.
I don't know, I don't know.

(20:15):
I guess sometimes I'm a glasshalf empty guy.
I just I'm not 100% surewhether or not it, how effective
it will be in that Um, you know, I think in order for it to
work, parents have got to, youknow, number one, sit through it

(20:35):
and, number two, absorb some ofthe information and take it to
heart, right, um, and I thinkthat's.
I think there there's where thethere is where the, the
disconnect lies.
I, you know, I think I waslistening to what you were
saying and I think, as a coach,you know, especially you coach

(20:56):
12, you know you're trying tocreate a positive team culture
and one of the toughest thingsto overcome, I think, is, you
know, the influence of a parentin pushing that individualism,
you know, on their kid whenthey're away from the rink.

(21:16):
You know, by that I mean reallyfocusing on them and their
development, which we're ascoaches.
We're all doing that Right, butwe're also, as you said, we're
also trying to bring the teamtogether and create that
positive team culture.
And I think one of the quickestways to to kill that is, you

(21:39):
know, is is parents gettinginvolved in in having kind of a
negative influence on their ownkids.
Why aren't you on the firstline and why has Bobby got more
goals than you do, or whatever.
I mean they may not be the bestexamples, but I do think that
growing up as a kid and I don'tknow, maybe we don't always

(22:05):
remember as a child, maybe wedon't bring an adult viewpoint
as a kid, so maybe my memoriesare not as as clear as I think
they are, but I just I don'tremember, you know, certainly

(22:25):
not my parents.
My parents would drop me offand they, my dad was not an
athlete as a kid.
He loved sports but he ended upworking at a very early age,
going to work.
He came from a big family andhe'd never went to college and
so he was really focused on work, even as a youngster.

(22:46):
He loved, I think, he played.
You know, he played sandlot,baseball and basketball,
whatever, but organized sportswas not his thing.
But they were very hands offand so and it was that was kind
of the experience, my experience, seeing my friends, parents as
well I just think it was adifferent time.

(23:08):
I'm 64.
So I grew up in the late 60s,early 70s, as a youth player and
it was just different and weprobably spent more time playing
football on the field, hockeyon a pond, than we ever played
organized sports.
It just wasn't as big as it isnow.

(23:29):
Now it's so ubiquitous.
Every kid not every kid, but alot of kids are involved in
sports.
Very few kids do it just forthe fun of it.
These days it's all everyone'smaking it to the NHL or major
league baseball or, you know,the NFL or whatever.
Um, which is, you know, is acomplete pipe dream.

(23:52):
It's awesome when it happensand I'm sure you've coached kids
that have gotten to the nextlevel, but, um, it's, they're
few and far between Right and so, uh, you know, it's just that
you know the influence ofparents on their own kids and
then sometimes they bring it youknow, I'm sure you've heard it

(24:13):
Sometimes they bring it right toyou as a coach and try to
influence things directly and itit can be a real negative
influence on a team for sure.

Speaker 1 (24:28):
Yeah, I love that you brought up the.
You know the generational,almost like generational
difference of how we grew up.
You know, playing sports.
My parents were also not verymuch involved and I was a
martial artist.
You know, I have a black beltin Taekwondo.
I used to compete, I used towrestle.
In high school and college Iplayed hockey as like a almost
like a secondary sport until Iwas older and then it became my

(24:52):
primary sport and then, you know, to me that got into coaching.
But, um, but it was just sodifferent, like you said, like
the parents, um, weren't asinvolved in watching their kids
or like they would just, youknow, bring them to the rink and
you know, there you are.
You know, that's one of theinteresting things that came out

(25:14):
of COVID, which was veryunfortunate.
You know, the world kind ofchanged, but during COVID, when
the rink started opening up, theparents weren't allowed inside.
A lot of coaches were sayingthis is the most focused I've
seen this group every play orpractice 100%.
Yeah, it was very interesting.

(25:35):
It's like oh, nobody'sdistracting you.
So you know, you're by yourself, there's nobody to look at, the
rink is empty.

Speaker 2 (25:42):
Yeah, I mean, I'll be honest with you, I coached at
every level of youth hockey, up,you know, through 18U.
And then I went back a numberof years ago over 20 years ago,
22, 23 years ago and startedcoaching our initiation or learn

(26:03):
to skate and learn to play.
Groups Started out just learnto play and then I added a learn
to skate program in addition tothat, because we had parents
bringing three-year-olds to therink, and you know you had, so
you had three to about six, andso we just divided them up so
that we had a better grouping of, you know, like skilled players

(26:27):
, kids that were at the samelevel of development.
You know most of them were outof diapers at least.
So we and I coached that groupfor I ran that, those two groups
, for 22 years in skinny Atlasand so coached every kid that
came through skinny Atlas youthhockey, you know, really up and
they just won the high schoolteam just won the state

(26:47):
championship a couple weeks agoand I coached 90 of those kids
when they were like five and six.
So I got I still got goodpictures to, uh, to embarrass
them by, but, um, part of theand I and I, as I mentioned, I
coach a sled hockey team whichis just a recreational sled
hockey team.

(27:13):
One of the reasons that I kindof settled there was because
number one, both of them arevery low impact in terms of
travel.
All of it was even the sledhockey team for many years was
right at our rink in Skaneos,which was literally three blocks
from my house.
So it was very easy and weplayed.
You know, the sled hockey teamplays in some tournaments, but
not a ton of games.
If we play 20 games in a seasonit's a lot.

(27:35):
It's between 15 and 20 games.
So it wasn't a lot of travel.
It didn't take me away fromhome with what I do with USA
Hockey and my other commitments,away from home with what I do
with USA hockey and my othercommitments.
I didn't have a ton of time togive but I wanted to keep
coaching.
So with both that sled hockeyteam and the initiation group
the learn to skate, learn toplay the parent involvement is

(27:56):
minimal.
It's almost nil.
Right With the sled hockey teamthere's a couple of kids and
their parents drop them off, etcetera, it's, but they're, they
are extremely thrilled thattheir kids are playing a sport
that they're, you know, there'sit's all positive.
There's there's no negative.
And with the, the learn toskate and learn to play.

(28:16):
They're brand new to this andthey don't know what they don't
know and for the most part, it'sit's it's all fun, right, and
for the most part, it's it'sit's all fun, right.
So you know, selfishly, I justdidn't want to deal with that
part.
I really honestly, I couldn'tdeal with that part if I wanted
to stay involved with.
You know, I'm also on the boardof new york state amateur

(28:38):
hockey and and what I do withusa hockey and a lot of travel
involved in all of that.
I just didn't have the time.
So, but my point is it did getrid of that, that parent piece,
and it's just, it's unbelievablyfreeing.
So, yeah, I, I I do sympathizefor every coach at every, every

(28:59):
clinic that we do, I do in levelfours, I do.
I ran a piece called the coach'simpact and in part of that and
part of that block, we talkabout challenges to developing
positive team culture and thefirst thing that comes up every

(29:22):
there's 60 coaches in the class,they're from all over the
country and every single time,the first thing that comes up as
a detriment to or a barrier toto to developing a positive team
culture, is parents.
So it's it's ubiquitous, it'snot something that you see or I

(29:43):
see.
It's something that almostevery coach sees.
So it is a problem and it'sit's um, it's something that you
know.
Uh, we, we need to deal with um, for for for sure yeah, it's.

Speaker 1 (29:59):
It's interesting that there's a saying that goes
something to the extent that youknow you put 10 people in the
room, you get 10 differentopinions.
That's kind of the case whenyou're dealing with a team.
You have, you know, 10 familiesand everybody sees things
different ways.
And I think you know I thinkthe important thing that a lot

(30:23):
of folks miss is that it's okayto disagree, it is okay not to
agree with the coach's approach,it is okay to think that, hey,
I would have done it this way.
But it also you need to be ableto accept that this person's
leading this team, this personis in that position of authority

(30:45):
and coaching the team, and thatperson cannot second guess his
decisions.
And the minute that the coachstarts second guessing himself
or herself on that bench, that'sthe minute when you know
everybody starts strugglingright, because they have no
identity.
They don't know which way theywant the kids to go, what they
want them to do.
Do you want to please everybody?
You can't.

(31:06):
And then you start running intoa lot of that trouble where you
know you're no longer helpingthe kids.

Speaker 2 (31:12):
Yeah, yeah, I mean I think one of the things that I
try to impart on coaches thatyou know that come through the
clinic, you know each block hasa different focus but that, like
I said, with the clinics thatwe do in New York 45 ish, 45 to
50 clinics over the course ofthe year we probably do 10 or 12

(31:35):
level fours and in that levelfour there's a piece that I
didn't put it together, it wasput together by our curriculum
committee.
It's called the coach's impactand it and it talks about you
know putting, you knowdeveloping a positive team
culture, et cetera, and you knowit's I just, every time we go

(31:57):
through that, you know I domention to to the coaches that
you know it's bringing theparents in to the process.
Not necessarily.
I think this is just my ownopinion and actually none of
what I say is I'm not speakingfor USA Hockey.

(32:18):
I'm speaking for USA Hockey,but I think that the culture
needs to come from the staff andthe players.
I think that's something.
If you want buy-in, the playersbetter be involved in that.
The players.
I think that's something.
If you want buy-in, the playersbetter be involved in that,
right.
So I think that's something thatwe as a team, as staff and
players, put together, but Ithink the parents have to know

(32:39):
what it is, and and and I, myfeeling is that it's presented
to them not as what do you guysthink it's?
This is our, our culture, thisis what your, your kids, your,
your own children on this teamhave helped put together and and
buy into.

(33:00):
And we as the staff and this iswhat we're doing this year this
is what we believe in, this iswhat we want to accomplish and
we need you to to buy into it aswell.
It's not going to work unlessyou're involved in it, right,
and I think that's one way totry to get in.
I think there's a lot of otherways to bring them in to the
team, to make them part of it,to make them part of the process

(33:22):
, to give them a job.
Maybe they're counting shots,maybe they're involved in
getting food for a trip thatyou're doing, maybe they're
involved in planning for hotelsor whatever it is, but I think
co-opting them, bringing theminto the process, I think is a
good way of getting them on yourside and getting them out of

(33:48):
being a problem and turningtheir involvement more into a
positive thing.
It doesn't work with everybody,as you know, but I think it can
work with some parents.
I think that's one strategythat I try to impart to coaches

(34:09):
to try to make that, make thisbetter, you know, make this
relationship better.

Speaker 1 (34:15):
No, that's great.
I couldn't agree with you more.
And I think that's great advicefor coaches coming into the
game and especially as you getinto the older groups, right,
like when I'm working with, asyou said.
I do want to learn to playgroups as well and I work with
six and seven yearyear-olds andbabies coming in and through the
Junior Rangers program we get10 to 12 brand-new kids.

(34:36):
Just at AV there are sportswhere I coach, but other rings
have the same turnout.
So we have seen a huge increasein the kids trying out the game
and then staying in the game andplaying.
You know trying out the game andthen staying in the game and
playing, and you know it's soquickly, the reward is so quick
because they progress so quickly.
So you know the parent sees akid getting on the ice, he falls

(35:01):
seven times and before thepractice is over the kid can get
up and walk across the ice ontheir own.
Second practice the kid alreadykind of glides and maybe even
learns to stop a little bit.
Third practice we're doing youknow they're skating, they're
gliding, they're stopping.
Fourth practice we're skatingbackwards and the parents are
like what just happened?
You know it's been four or fivepractices and these kids are

(35:23):
skating and you know they'reexcited and they feel good.
And then when you get to theolder kid and it's like you know
you teach them, you know toopen to, you know to the wall or
turn away from the pressure,and it takes you three months
what that one thing to stick inand it means like what's wrong?
Why is this not working?
You know, it's like it's somuch, it's so exaggerated.

Speaker 2 (35:46):
The younger levels as opposed to when the older ones
yeah, that's so true, I mean, Ithink as opposed to the older
ones.
Yeah, that's so true, I mean Ithink there's two reasons, a
couple of reasons for that.
One is that number one youngkids are just sponges and they
have such a capacity to learn,you know, not just cognitively,
but physically as well, you knowmotor skills.

(36:06):
And two, I mean, they'restarting from absolute scratch.
So I've lived exactly what youjust said for for 22 years and
you know, you know it's funnybecause you look like a genius,
because these kids areprogressing so fast.
And you know, what I reallytell the parents is yeah, this
happens every year, and it's notus, it's them.

(36:27):
They're just, they've got sucha capacity to learn and and to
improve.

Speaker 1 (36:33):
Um, it's, and it's fun to watch, it's, it's really
fun to watch yeah, and I thinkthat kind of brings me to this
next point is you know, I thinkI heard this quote from somebody
, I don't remember who, but itsaid when do we go from wow to
why?
Like, when does it change fromgoing wow, my kid can now skate,

(36:53):
and isn't that wonderful.
Or a kid can lift the puck offthe ice with a shot, isn't that
amazing?
To why didn't you score thatgoal?
Why didn't you make that play?
Why didn't you play better?
Why didn't you skate better?
When does that parent-childrelationship change?
And in my mind, I always thinkthat a coach has to maintain

(37:16):
discipline and they have to bean educator and they have to
kind of stay focused anddemanding and set the bar.
But as a parent, should youmaintain that wow factor as part
of your relationship with yourchild?
You know when?
When do you have you seen thatchange with the age groups?

(37:36):
Which age group do you thinkthat happens in and how the
parents really try to maintainthe wow factor?

Speaker 2 (38:02):
Unfortunately, what I've seen over the, you know, 30
years of involvement in youthhockey is that, it that that
change, that conversion from wowto why it kept happening
earlier and earlier.
Right, and yeah, I mean I don'tknow that I would feel
comfortable pinning it downexactly.
I mean I don't know that Iwould feel comfortable pinning
it down exactly.
But you know, even, like youknow, nine and 10 year olds, I
think, parents are, are startingto to get, you know, more
involved in the why andquestioning.

(38:22):
And you know, I think there'sthere's a lot of reasons for it.
And I don't think you know, Idon't, I don't, I'm not smart
enough to know all of them, butwhat I, I think what I can say
is that hockey is a veryexpensive sport and it's it's
very time consuming, it's a.
You know there's a, there's athere's a lot of investment on

(38:48):
the part of the parents, both intime and money, especially down
by you.
I mean I don't need to tell you, I mean you know the ice time
in central New York.
I was up until I don't know,maybe six years ago, I was
paying $90 an hour for ice.
I know you guys are five, seventimes that right and depending
on the rank, so it's.

(39:10):
It varies from place to place.
But even here, where ice timeis cheaper and up in Northern
New York and other parts of thecountry where you know it's it's
not as expensive as it is inthe metropolitan area, it's
still a lot of money and and soto play hockey, you know, for a
child to play hockey for a wholeseason, and if they're, you

(39:32):
know they're traveling, theyhockey.
You know for a child to playhockey for a whole season, and
if they're traveling they'replaying games in other parts of
the country or up in Canada,you're spending a lot of money.
It's costly, right?
So parents, I think, feelpressure and give pressure
because of that, and I alsothink it's cultural.
I think things have just changed, I mean dramatically.

(39:55):
Even before, you know, waybefore COVID, the world is a
different place than it was whenwe grew up.
You know that happens withevery generation, right?
It seems to be a little bitmore pronounced maybe as we go
into the future here.
And you know, just if you lookat the difference in how our

(40:18):
kids communicate as compared tohow we communicated, that's such
a huge difference.
That doesn't really speak towhat we're talking about here in
terms of parents perception,but I do.
I do think it speaks to how muchour culture has changed and so

(40:50):
what I experienced as a youthplayer and what you
experienced're a victim of, youknow what the culture that that
they're living in now but I dothink I don't think it's healthy
, I don't think it's a positivething for the kids that are
playing.
It's a positive thing for thekids that are playing and I
think if they could see thatsomehow, if they, you know,

(41:12):
could watch a video of some ofthe bad behavior or some of the
things that we feel, as coaches,feel are a negative influence
on a team, I think it might.
You know, they might thinkdifferently about it.
But, yeah, I would say it'sgotten worse.

(41:34):
It's that wow to why.
I love the way you put that, bythe way, and I'm going to use
that but I think that has gonebackwards and I think it's
happening at an earlier age, umthan it, than it used to, for
sure yeah, I mean I I'll tellyou from my own experience.

Speaker 1 (41:56):
I've gone through that, where you know I've lost
it for a little bit and thebroad you know kind of brought
it back um where you know youget into.
And I think I got a commentfrom um of our listeners.
My wife wanted to comment thatit changes when competition

(42:17):
becomes apparent.
Well, thank you, darling.

Speaker 2 (42:19):
Yeah, that's a great point.

Speaker 1 (42:21):
Yeah, right.
And so I think that, even as acoach, right, when you get into
more competitive structures andthey're more, I guess, more
nerve-wracking, those closegames, those championship games,
the tournament games it's hardto keep your composure in terms
of just hey, I want to enjoy themoment, I want to take it and

(42:45):
win or lose, whether you'rehappy at the end or you're
crying at the end, whatever thesituation is, you got to be able
to take that in and enjoy that.
And I think that that's adifficult thing to do,
especially dealing with thewalls.
But I also think you know, ifyou take it a little bit a step
further and think about why dowe put our kids into sports in

(43:05):
the first place?
Why do we put our kids intosports in the first place?
And isn't it to teach them todeal with failure and to be able
to grow from that and to youknow, not get you know.
And there's actually I was doingsome research about things like
suicide rates and things likedepression in athletes versus

(43:29):
non-athletes, and while there'sno real consensus that says you
know, if you're an athlete,chances of you getting depressed
are much less than somebodywho's not, but there are
linkages and studies that arebeing done that say that that is

(43:50):
the case, that athletes aremore, um, I guess, resilient to
their the struggles that theyface in their life.
You know, like, whether it'sfailing in school, whether it's
failing losing a job, you know,when you're 30 or 40 right, and
a lot of us have been, you know,gone through a layoff or two
and had to pick ourselves up.
You know losing a spouse or youknow a relationship, you know,

(44:12):
and being able to deal with that, and I feel like that's the
whole purpose of a sport.
So if that's the purpose, don'tyou want your child to
experience it and grow from itas much as possible, as opposed
to going through their careerwinning every single game and
championship, which to me wouldsay you probably put them on the
wrong level?

(44:32):
You should be the place whereyou're struggling, because
otherwise is growth happening.

Speaker 2 (44:40):
Yeah, you're so right .
I mean, I think a big part ofwhat we learn by competing and
playing sports is how to lose,right, and that failure is part
of the learning process.
Right, failure is going tohappen.
It's inevitable.
There is nobody on the planetthat never lost a game, if

(45:02):
they're an athlete, right, andso we need to learn how to lose
and lose gracefully and learnfrom it, right, I think that's.
I think you put your finger onsomething that's that's really
important in.
In that is, you know, as acoach, are we about?
Are we just about winning andlosing?
We're certainly about wantingto win, right, I mean, if you,

(45:25):
if somebody says that they don'tcare, if if we win or lose,
they're lying, right, everybodywants, I want to win at
everything I do.
If I'm playing checkers with myfive-year-old grandson, you
know, to a certain extent, Iwant to win.
There may be some times when Iwill let him win just because
you know he's cute and I lovehim, but I think you know,

(45:50):
wanting to, the desire to, towin and be successful, is
certainly just as part of beinghuman.
But as a coach, if, if, that is, if, that's the only barometer
that I'm using to gauge mysuccess as a coach that you're
bound to be a failure, you know,for I shouldn't say that so, uh

(46:13):
, clearly, but I do think thatthat, um, for me, the goal is
development, right, and and, andwe can develop and we can learn
and we can get better at thegame, even though we lost.
And the other thing is thatwinning is not always a
controllable right, it's anoutcome, right.

(46:35):
You know that as a coach, right, and I'm sure you've coached
games where you've come back inthe locker room and you just
lost four to two and you saygreat game guys.
You guys played really well.
We did the little things that Iwanted you to do.
We accomplished a lot of thegoals that we wanted to
accomplish in that game andtheir goal took goal tender

(46:55):
stood on his head or theyoutplayed us.
They played a great game, right, I may not say that to my team,
but I, you know, in my head, Iknow that that team outplayed us
, right.
Winning is an outcome andsometimes you know you it's,
it's it's somewhat out of yourcontrol.
It's not out of your control toplay your best.
It is sometimes out of yourcontrol to whether you win or

(47:17):
lose.
So, and I think that that'spart of the problem.
I think that, culturally, we areso focused as Americans, we are
so focused on winning it's it'slike it's an obsession on
winning it's.
It's like, uh, it it, it's anobsession, and, um, I love that
to a certain extent and I hateit to another extent, because

(47:38):
you know, it's a double-edgedsword it it it drives us to be,
to be, you know, the best thatwe can be, and it's partly why
this country is such a greatcountry and so successful.
But, uh, same token, if it'sthe only thing that's important,
if it's the only barometer bywhich we judge ourselves, you
know we're bound to bedissatisfied.

(47:59):
Right?
I mean, there's only in the NHL, there's only one team that
wins, you know, the Stanley Cupat the end of the year.
So does that mean the other?
You know 30, what is it?
35 teams now, or whatever stank?
No, it doesn't.
But you know, it's just acultural thing and I've had the

(48:21):
opportunity, through myinvolvement with USA Hockey, to
meet hockey people from all overthe world and it's amazing.
You know, there are a number ofcountries, I think, that kind of
think like us, but there are anumber of countries that don't,
and the way they approach, atleast at the youth level, the

(48:42):
way they approach the game is sodifferent, and you can see it
in, you know, small countrieslike Sweden and Finland that
produce an incredibly highnumber of players that make it
to the next level, and I think alot of that has to do with how
they approach the game.
And, again, I think a lot of itis cultural.
I think a lot of it is out ofour hands as hockey people, but

(49:08):
it's something that we have tounderstand and it's something
that we have to deal with if wewant to be successful, and I
think we've done as a nation,we've done a pretty good job of
that at the highest level.
But there's a lot of kids thatare playing that are never going
to get to the highest level andand do we want their experience
to be positive or or not?

(49:29):
And I think you know whatyou're, what you're driving at,
you know what you're about hereis, I think is is a really
important issue for sure.

Speaker 1 (49:40):
Yeah, I, you know and speaking about you know, just
growing the game and the numberof you know, did you mention the
other countries?
um, I was looking again at someof the stats and I realized that
, you know, one of the thingsthat we were talking about,
level five um coaching seminar,which, by the way, was wonderful

(50:01):
and, yeah, I think I might do acouple more just for fun,
because they were it was great.
It's a, you know, great panelfrom the boston bruins alumni
and it was incredible.
But the one thing that I thinkthe one theme that kept
regurgitating is that, you know,making it fun and enjoying the
actual game, and I saw that thenumbers in player participation

(50:22):
increased by over 100,000 since2021 to 2023 season.
That's an unbelievable amountof players.
So if you talk aboutstatistically and we say one out
of 10,000 players or whatevermakes it to the NHL, that's an
extra 10 players.

Speaker 2 (50:42):
Let's hope.

Speaker 1 (50:43):
Right, but just statistically speaking, just
thinking about it, right?

Speaker 2 (50:49):
Right.

Speaker 1 (50:49):
The more kids that we have playing, the more chances
we have of kids making the topteams.
And it seems like thoseScandinavian and Eastern
European countries have such anabundance of athletes,
especially in the winter sports.
You know, I guess one isbecause it's just cold.

(51:09):
You know, that's what they do.
One of the gentlemen I coachedwith for many years, um, coach
vlad for those in new york andknow him uh, he's from very cold
parts of russia and he wouldsay that his whole town of 10
000 people would either playhockey or watch hockey.
So that was the thing everyweekend.

(51:30):
He's like either played or youwatched it, that was the only
thing you got.

Speaker 2 (51:34):
Yeah, hockey is huge in Russia.
It's a very popular sport inRussia, no doubt about it.

Speaker 1 (51:48):
Yeah, and so just looking at those numbers and
thinking about the increase inparticipation, do you think we
have enough coaches at themoment who are stepping up to
coach, especially, as you said,experienced, maybe somewhat
experienced players, or evenhigh-level players from AHL NHL
who come back to coach, or isthat something that we are
trying to look to develop?

Speaker 2 (52:11):
Well, yeah, we certainly want to develop, um,
as many coaches, you know, andget them to high level of
coaching as possible.
Um, I think we have, you know,because of the fact, as we
discussed earlier, that a lot ofthe, the, the coaches that are
out there are parents.
Um, I think we have enoughpeople that are acting as

(52:35):
coaches, right, that arecoaching recreational teams,
tier two, tier three, teams thatare in the process of becoming
the best coach that they can be.
They're not there yet, right?
And I think we have a lot ofvery good coaches that are
coaching at the higher levels,you know, tier one coaches,

(52:55):
junior coaches that that havebeen you, have good experience,
a lot of experience, and knowthe game and, and, more
importantly, I guess, know howto coach the game.
But we do have to continue tohelp develop those coaches,
those parental coaches orcoaches that don't have a lot of
experience, to get them to bethe best coach that they can be,

(53:19):
right, and that's what thecoaching education program is
all about, and it's it's to behonest with the curriculum that
we currently are using level onethrough four, which are, all
you know, basically six hourcourses, and 98% of them are
done through Zoom online.

(53:40):
At this point, the curriculumfor that is really good as good
as it's ever been, you knowfinally professionally put
together, although, I think youknow, we, the CICs from the
districts, we used to put acommittee together of those CICs
along with some of the paidstaff to put the curriculum

(54:00):
together and it was always good,I think going back way back
back to 70s and 80s with Luveroand Val Belmonte.
They always did a great job andif you look at those old books
it's remarkable.
The topics that they coveredare really still some of the

(54:21):
topics that we're dealing withtoday in our levels one through
four.
I think we are taking a deeperdive and it's more the current
curriculum is more about how tocoach than it is what to coach.
It's more the currentcurriculum is more about how to
coach than it is what to coach.
There is plenty of informationout there on, you know, the USA
Hockey website and many otherwebsites and through folks like

(54:42):
yourself and other hockeyrelated information that's out
there.
There's a lot of information onwhat drills look like and you
know, practice, how to plan apractice, et cetera.
But actually just becoming abetter coach, right, how do we
coach.
What are the, what are theskills that we need as a coach?

(55:02):
You know we bring that up incoaching clinics.
You know the stairs are blankand you know it's things like
how to, how to explain a drill,how to demonstrate a drill,

(55:23):
things that you know I certainlyalways thought that I could do.
I never really thought a lotabout it, to be honest with you,
and when we started focusing onthis, I realized you know what?
I'm not that good at it and youknow, the quicker you can
explain a drill and have itunderstood, the quicker that you
can demonstrate a drill.
We're not doing it just for thesake of explaining or hearing
ourselves talk.
We're doing it so that we canget the team into an exercise,

(55:45):
an activity on the ice that wethink is going to help them
become better.
Things like how to observe theseare all things that we sort of
think are instinctive, right,intuitive.
But how to analyze how to?
You know we observe our playersand then we have to take that
information and analyze it tocoach.

(56:14):
Coaching a player it's.
You know.
They come off the ice andyou're leaning over their
shoulder and saying, hey, nexttime.
You're in your defensive zoneand you know you need to look
over your shoulder, be aware,scan, find that you know your,
your cover or whatever.
Um, that's what we think of ascoaching, but there's so much
that goes into it before thatyou get to that point, how do we
, how do we make observations ofour players and how do we
analyze that information?

(56:35):
And then how is it to best helpa player?
By not just you know.
I think most of us think that ifwe just tell them listen, you
know whatever it happens to be,you know in your, in your
defensive zone, you know youneed to be, you need to look
behind, you need to have yourhand on a swivel.
You know you had a guy sittingon the far post, the back door,

(56:57):
you didn't see it.
He scored a goal, whatever.
That is not necessarily goingto change that behavior, but if
we ask the right questions andinvolve the player in that
process, right by askingquestions, let them think about
it, let them come to thatconclusion.
Things like that, little things, little tools, little devices,

(57:18):
strategies to be you're.
It's funny when we, when we havea clinic, we always I always

(57:39):
ask how many teachers do we havein the group?
And you know you'll get threeor four people out of 60 that'll
raise their hand and we'llalways say I didn't think of
this, somebody else did.
But I think it's so true.
You're all teachers.
Everyone should have raisedyour hands.
Every single one of you is ateacher.
You're a coach, coaching isteaching, and so you're part of
the learning process and youneed you need to understand what
that process is and the factthat it's messy and that there's

(58:01):
failure involved and, as acoach, we have to be, we have to
be OK with that, right, we haveto be OK with with our players
getting it wrong, makingmistakes, especially in practice
, but it's going to happen ingames as well, you know.
So, yeah, it's kind of along-winded answer to your
question.

Speaker 1 (58:19):
I'm sorry, that was perfect.
Yeah, I love how you made thatconnection between coaching and
teachers, because my wife is ateacher.
We actually talk all the timeabout, you know, kids, and you
know there's instances where shehelps me work through something
with a child that you know I'mtrying to find a connection with
and I'm struggling for onereason or another.

(58:39):
Right, I work sometimes withkids with ADHD and other.
You know, some learningdisabilities and just
understanding how they workthrough it in a classroom really
helps you work through it onthe ice, because they just take
a little bit of differentapproach, maybe getting the
attention a little bitdifferently.
You know, just, you know somekids are kind of all over the

(59:00):
place you're gonna reel them inevery five seconds, and others
you don't, and just you know,just just being able to work
through those things and and itreally does come from, you know,
learning to teach and not justteaching the game.
So I really love that you madethat connection, because I think
it's a very important one,especially for all the new

(59:22):
coaches coming into the game.
I do want to talk a little bitabout something we touched on
earlier, which was what I callkitchen talk, and when we hear
parents or coaches oradministrators talking in the
background about a child orabout you know, so, a lot of

(59:42):
times it's parents talking aboutthe coach in front of their
child and then that takes awaysome of the credibility that the
coach has.
If it's negative or it could bethe opposite right, if it's a
positive conversation, then thekid wants to go see their coach.
They're excited to be on theice.
So, you know, have you seenthat?
You know as well with theparent groups that you work with

(01:00:06):
, and is that something you talkabout in parent meetings?
Or how do you get the parentsto kind of be mindful of the
conversation?
They have to empower theirrelationship between a player
and the coach rather than, youknow, take it to the detriment
level where the player justdoesn't, you know, doesn't want
to listen to the coach, thinksthe coach is not adequate, or

(01:00:26):
whatever it is coming from theparent.

Speaker 2 (01:00:29):
Yeah, I mean, I think there's only so much that we
can do, Ilya, as a coach, tostop that sort of thing.
We're not in the house andoften we don't even hear.
You know, we never know what ifthere's, you know, negative
comments going on behind thescenes with the player in terms

(01:00:57):
of destroying team cohesion orteam culture.
Because if a parent or anybodyis planting negative thoughts in
a player's head, it can keepthem from buying into what it is
that we as a team have puttogether as our culture, have
agreed on as our culture, whatwe're trying to work on on a

(01:01:17):
daily basis keeping everybodytogether.
You know, I always tell my sledteam because they're old enough
to understand that before everygame I always tell them listen,
we're a family, we win as afamily, we lose as a family,
right, but in the end we loveeach other and regardless of
what happens win, lose or drawyou know you treat each other

(01:01:39):
like family and and certainlysomething like that, the
negativity going on behind thescenes, that's certainly not how
you want your family to to actRight and that's not the kind of
behavior that's going to helppromote that positive team
culture.
I mean, I think the only thingthat that from my perspective,

(01:02:00):
anyways, that we can do is to isto meet with the parents and be
very honest with them.
These are the things thathere's what we're playing,
here's our, here's our plan,here's our culture on paper.
Your kids have bought into this.
This is what we want to try toaccomplish, this is what we
stand for, this is who we are,this is what we accept, this is

(01:02:22):
what we promote.
This is what we don't accept.
And you know, are you, do youbuy into this?
And if so, here's the thingsthat would be helpful to us as a
team, and here's the thingsthat would would be hurtful.
And I think you know the thingsthat you just talked about.
Um, uh, you know kitchen talk,or whatever you want to call it.

(01:02:43):
Um, where you know the parentis complaining about.
Uh, you know who the who thecoach put out in the third
period.
Uh, you know who he's got onthe power play, what the drills
look like in practice.
You know I always say listen, ifyou think you can do a better
job, come on out.

(01:03:04):
We'd love to.
We need more coaches, right?
So you know, I think the onlything at least it's just my
thought.
The only thing that we reallycan do is to point it out before
it ever happens.
Point it out these are thingsthat are, you know, a negative,
these are things that are adetriment to our team culture.
If you want your child to havea good experience, if you want

(01:03:26):
your you know you want topromote your child's good
experience here with this team,these are the things you can do,
and I think that's you knowwe're somewhat limited in you
know what we can do to react tothat Because, like I said, I
think nine times out of ten wedon't even know what's happening

(01:03:47):
.

Speaker 1 (01:03:48):
All right, Thank you, that was wonderful.
I think it's an important topicand I'm really happy.
I'm really happy that we got toexplore that a little bit.
I did want to ask you one morething and bringing it back to
you coaching your own son.
Comparing that, I know you'vebeen through all the levels of

(01:04:10):
youth hockey.
I know it's a differentexperience coaching your kid
versus other kids and eventhough as coaches we treat them
like any other player on thebench, but there is, you know,
there's obviously a little bitof that uh, you know different
experience that you'reexperiencing.
Some parents are tougher thantheir kids.

(01:04:30):
Some are the opposite.
They're just, you know, kind ofsofter.
So what was your experiencelike going through coaching him
and then ultimately, you know,transitioning it to just
coaching?

Speaker 2 (01:04:42):
I was terrible at it.
I was terrible at it, I was theworst, I was the worst.
And so I coached him until heturned 12 and and then I made
the conscious decision I'm, Iwent back to coach our, our, our

(01:05:03):
square travel team nine and 10year olds, and and then I went
from there all the way back toto the initiation group and was
there for 22 years.
But I, you know, I knew, I knewwhen I was coaching, I mean I
loved coaching, I really loved,even way back then.
I loved the the process ofcoaching and teaching, and but I

(01:05:27):
was way too hard on him.
I mean I, I, he was, he was asas a, especially as a younger
player, he was very goodrelative to the kids he was
playing with, and I probably,you know, did not give him the
credit that he probably was due,because I didn't want to make

(01:05:51):
it look as though I was, youknow, I was that coach that was
favoring his own kid Right and,and so that was one extreme.
But then, on the other extreme,you know, I wanted so badly for
him to succeed and, like everyparent, you know, I mean, I
broke all the rules, everythingthat I've just been talking
about for terrible parenting.

(01:06:11):
I mean, I think I got there by,you know, by doing most of it
Right, and so, yeah, I was.
I remember one one situationthat it was, I think it was kind
of when the white ball went offand he, he was, he was going
after the puck, you know, downin our end and he went by the

(01:06:33):
bench, just kind ofinstinctively blurted out will
you skate?
He stopped dead.
He looked me in the eyes and hesaid I am, and the other two
coaches looked at me like, ohboy, I think you just crossed
the line and the light bulb wentoff and and he, you, you know,

(01:06:55):
he taught me a very good lesson,like you know, and I think back
then I was a little bit morevocal from the bench and I that
was also helpful for him to shutme up a little bit.
But yeah, I was not good atcoaching my own kid and I
realized it and I, so I Istopped coaching him, turned him

(01:07:18):
over to some other, you know,very capable coaches and he had
a, you know he was, he was, youknow, kind of a middle of the
road player.
He ended up having a very goodhigh school career.
He wasn't a star by any means,he was a, you know, second liner
and by by his senior year andhe has, I think, very good

(01:07:42):
memories of playing high schoolhockey and, and you know, he's
played at men's hockey on andoff and he still loves the sport
.
He coaches with me.
He's coached with me with thelittle guys, for you know, since
, basically since he got out ofhigh school when he was home
from college and then when hegraduated, he's in the area.
So he still helps me with thatteam and he and he loves

(01:08:03):
coaching the sled hockey team aswell.
So he's still involved inhockey and I didn't scare him
away completely.
But yeah, it was good to.
You know, I think if you coachyour kid all the way through, it
is, I think, good at some pointto let them go and let somebody
else coach them Because, if forno other reason, just to give

(01:08:24):
them another perspective,because we have a certain way
that we look at the game, thinkof the game, coach the game, and
I think it's beneficial forplayers to play for different
coaches and get, you know, get adifferent perspective.

Speaker 1 (01:08:36):
So, but I was bad at it to answer your question, I
was really bad at it well, whenI started coaching, I think I,
you know, I had the sameexperience that you just
described and I also wentthrough my growing pains of, you
know, running around the benchand yelling and and so you know
well, I would be like.
You know you look a little bitlike a maniac out there.
You know you're witheight-year-olds, you know you

(01:08:57):
think you're coaching theRangers, you know, versus the
Allenters game.
This is it.
This is the Stanley Cup finalgame seven goal.
You know, third game of theseason.
So, yeah, I definitely feeleverything you just said,
because I've also gone throughthat experience.
Um, and I, you know my I alsohad a moment with my kid I

(01:09:20):
talked about earlier in the show, uh, in my different shows uh,
where you know he kind of camehome after one of the practices
of games.
I remember he was just upsetand crying and and you know, I
came into the room like he justsat there at seven years old,
looked right me, you know, likeright in the eye and said you

(01:09:41):
know, this is not working for me.
You're yelling, you're alwaysyelling, you're always like you,
always.
Yeah, I was like, and you know,my first instinct is like
defensive, is like it was likewait, wait, you know, I kind of
gave it a minute.
I was like you know what it waslike, wait, wait, you know, I
kind of gave it a minute.
I was like you know what it'slike, I hear you, I understand
you need something different.
And then I kind of that kind ofspiraled into changing my

(01:10:04):
coaching approach since then andthen I absolutely, you know,
agree with you.
He's been coached by othercoaches.
I have him training with someof my friends who are coaches
who have been wonderfulthroughout the organization.
Now he's moving up to Bantams.
I have my second guy coming upwho's been training with another
coach who's also been amazing.

(01:10:25):
So I think getting that purviewand them kind of shifting
through the age groups withdifferent coaches is definitely
helpful.
But there is that aspect of youknow you don't want to seem
like your favorite kid and youwant to make sure that you know
it's fair, but yeah, it's reallyhard.

Speaker 2 (01:10:44):
I mean it's, you know , in our defense.
It sounds like you had asimilar experience In our
defense.
It's a very difficult thing todo and I don't recommend it.
I mean, I've I've watchedpeople that are really good at
it, that have have done it well,but they're few and far between
.
I think the majority of uscan't handle it.

(01:11:05):
It's just, we love our kids somuch, we want so much for them
to be successful.
I mean, it's similar to whatwe've been talking about with
parents, except that we're onthe ice, you know we're, you
know we're running the team, andso it is.
You know we're in a differentsituation than they are, and I
think that's why and you havemore power over the team than

(01:11:28):
they have, and I think that'swhy, you know, I and it sounds
like you too, you know almostwent in the opposite direction
and and gave our kids shortshrift, because we didn't want
the optics of of looking likewe're, you know, favoring our,
our, our own player, you know.
So it's.

Speaker 1 (01:11:48):
It's a very, very, very difficult line to to walk,
and I was very happy, and so washe, when I, you know, finally
said I'm not coaching you nextyear, thank god well, hopefully,
you know, our experience kindof gives way to some of the
newer parent coaches coming intothe game and I'll be like, okay

(01:12:10):
, well, shouldn't do that when Istart out.
Let's do what they're doing now, not what they did.
You know they're makingmistakes, not from your own.

Speaker 2 (01:12:19):
Yeah, but even knowing, even kind of getting
that advice up front, it's hard,it's a very hard thing.
You know, when you're dealingwith your kid, I think you know.
Again, going back to the way myfather handled it, like you
know.
Again, going back to the way mymy father handled it, like you
know, we'd be coming back from agame in high school and I'd be

(01:12:40):
sitting next to him and thewhole way home I would critique
my game.
I would list every singlemistake I made in the game and
he would just sit there sayingmm, hmm, mm, hmm, he didn't, he
had no opinion on it.
He'd be like well, I guess, ifyou say that you stunk tonight,
I guess you stunk and I, youknow, I was always very hard on
myself, but he never critiquedmy game.

(01:13:03):
I was always critiquingPatrick's game.
You know what I mean when hewas, when he was younger, and
because I was right there.
I mean if, if, if, otherteammates of his were there, I

(01:13:27):
probably would have beencritiquing them too.
It's just the way your mindworks.
You're going through the gameand I just think it's a very
difficult thing to do.
Let them go and be coached bysomebody else.
I think that's a really in mostcases, that's a really smart
thing to do.

Speaker 1 (01:13:41):
Right, awesome, I love that.
And I know we're a little bitover time and before we close
out, I usually like to ask allmy guests three questions to
kind of wrap up so we can drawsome parallels between different
episodes and different folks.
So I'm gonna fire away.
It's a kind of speed fire.
So first one here is in youropinion, what motivates athletes

(01:14:05):
?

Speaker 2 (01:14:07):
well, I think it depends on the athlete, but I
think, in general um are wetalking about youth players or
or athletes in general?

Speaker 1 (01:14:16):
because I think.
Well, why do we make thedistinction?

Speaker 2 (01:14:19):
what motivates a youth athlete versus I think
youth players, what motivatesthem is is having fun.
They want to be with theirfriends.
They want to.
They want to play a game, um,and they want to have fun.
They generally are not asconcerned, I think, as we are
about winning a state title.

(01:14:41):
I mean, I think there comes atime when that is motivating.
But I think most youth playersup until whatever you know 10,
12, 14, they want to have fun.
They want to be with theirfriends.
I'm 12, 14.
They want to have fun.
They want to be with theirfriends.
You know, and as Lou Vero, afriend of mine, always said, no
one goes to the rink to workhockey, they go to play.
It's a kid's game, they go toplay, right, and I think that's

(01:15:04):
what motivates them.

Speaker 1 (01:15:06):
They want to play.

Speaker 2 (01:15:06):
And I think you know at the upper levels.
You know being successful,being successful at their chosen
endeavor, is what you knowgetting getting better and and
being the best that they can be.

Speaker 1 (01:15:26):
Love that All right.
Question two if you could namethree character traits that you
notice in successful athletes,what would they?

Speaker 2 (01:15:33):
be?
Yeah, that's a great question,I think.
Personally, I think one thingis intellect, cognitive the
ability to make decisions.
I don't know that it'sintellect, but the ability to
make decisions, especially inhockey.
Hockey is especially the wayit's played today, is such a

(01:15:55):
fast game that it's intellect,but the ability to make
decisions, especially in hockey.
Hockey is especially the wayit's played today is such a fast
game and it's not just, youknow, stick handling and skating
and moving, it's being able to,at the highest levels, make
decisions really quick.
So I think that's not acharacter trait, though, but I
do think the ability to makequick decisions uh, I would say,

(01:16:17):
uh, you know grittiness, um,being able to, to fail and and
brush it off, I think is reallyimportant because, as we talked
about earlier, learning is, isor or failing and making
mistakes as part of it.

(01:16:37):
So you know, if you, if a kidcrumbles every time he makes a
mistake, if he falls apart,that's not, probably not going
to be conducive to to get intothe highest level, I think.
I don't think this is true ofeverybody, but I think most
successful athletes have apretty good core values that you

(01:17:01):
know.
They know who they are and theylike who they are and they're
comfortable in their own skin.
I think that's very helpful, tohave the confidence to be
successful.
And then I think you know justloving life and you know being

(01:17:26):
like enjoy, having fun.
And you know I think if youdon't enjoy what you're doing, I
don't think you're ever goingto get to that, to the next
level.
You, you know, I think therecomes a point where it becomes a
job.
But I think you know beforethat you've got to love the game
and want to play and want tohave fun and and and then

(01:17:51):
eventually, when you get goodenough, then I think that you
buckle down a little bit more.
But I do think the ability tohave fun and enjoy yourself in
the game I think is important.

Speaker 1 (01:18:06):
Awesome Love that.
And last question is kind ofthe opposite of that one is you
know if you could talk about afew things that hold in, that
can hold an athlete back?

Speaker 2 (01:18:21):
yeah, I mean, I think kind of the opposite of those
three things probably, um, andthat would be, uh, you know,
being too hard on yourself,being too negative, not being
able to to brush things off and,you know, taking things too
much to heart.
You know, I think that can cankill an athlete because again

(01:18:41):
you've, you're, you're going tohave setbacks in in the course
of of your career and I think inorder to get to the next level,
you got to be able to shakethat off and and and you know,
continue down the road and keeppositive.
Probably the, the inability toto get along with others.

(01:19:12):
You know, if you're not, if youcan't be a team player, I think
in most cases that's not goingto help you.
I've certainly seen that inplayers that have been fairly
successful and then hit a wallbecause they had a hard time
getting along with theirteammates, for whatever reason.

(01:19:34):
They had a hard time gettingalong with their teammates for
whatever reason, and and andlastly, I guess, just the
inability to have fun and enjoyit.
Right, I've actually talked toAHL players that you know you
would think they they got a stepaway from the NHL and and were
just miserable just because theamount of work involved and you

(01:19:56):
know, in a lot of cases I thinkthey just felt like all this was
for naught.
I didn't get to the highestlevel.
I mean, I think you've got toenjoy where you're at right.
I met a guy one time this wasshortly after I started playing
golf, when I was 40.
I don't know, I said probablybeen playing for five years or
something, and he said you knowhow?
How are you?
And I said I stink, but I loveit, I love the game.

(01:20:19):
He said well, let me give you apiece of advice Enjoy the game
that you got now.
Whatever your handicap is,enjoy it, because you're not
going to get any better.
So he said you're 40 years old,you're probably not going to
get any better.
But I think that's true ofanybody.
No matter what you're doing,and especially sports, you've

(01:20:40):
got to be able to enjoy thelevel that you're at right in
order to get to the next level.
So the ability to have fun andenjoy what you're doing I think
is important.

Speaker 1 (01:20:51):
Awesome.
That's such a great point.
I think you know when you thinkabout again.
You know being able to recoverquickly from the mistakes, and
we talk to the kids about it allthe time.
You know I love the quote byZidane Achara I use it all the
time where he said that you know, make a hundred mistakes a game
, but if I think about it, youknow only one maybe ends up in a

(01:21:12):
scoring situation.
You know, high scoringsituation he's like most of them
, don't yield to anything he'slike, and if I sit there and
think about every mistake, Iwon't be able to play yeah, it's
true.

Speaker 2 (01:21:23):
Yeah, focusing on the negativity is definitely, um,
you know, not conducive to, youknow, to getting better.
I don't think, think.

Speaker 1 (01:21:33):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think, I think it's.
It's one of the most importantthings that we teach that we
talked about earlier is beingable to recover from a failure
or a mistake and just keep ongoing, because that's what life
is all about.

Speaker 2 (01:21:47):
That's very true, right, it's not.
It's not our best moments thatdefine us.
Right, it's how we handle thetough moments, and so, yeah, I
think that's very true.

Speaker 1 (01:21:58):
Yep, all right.
Well, chuck, thank you so muchfor jumping on the show.
I think you know, I know you'vegone a little close to an hour
and a half here and I know youand I can probably keep talking
for another three hours if youdon't stop, but this has been
great.
I think we touched on a lot ofwonderful topics and hopefully
brought a little bit of value tothe folks listening, you know,

(01:22:20):
on the show and and listening tothe show just vocally as usual.
The show will be up on all themajor podcast platforms tomorrow
, the day after, for everybodyto enjoy.
And again, just thank youeverybody for listening and
tuning in.
If you have any questions forme or Chuck, feel free to send

(01:22:42):
them over and I'll be happy toshare them with Chuck and get
you guys some answers.
So we are happy to helpcontinue to be an asset to
everybody who's listeningcoaches, parents and players.

Speaker 2 (01:22:56):
Thanks, Eli.
I enjoyed the conversation.
Thanks for having me.

Speaker 1 (01:23:00):
Wonderful.
Thank you, chuck, and thankeverybody else for listening.
Stay tuned for more.
Have a great evening.