PLEASE READ!
Please note that The Post Concussion Podcast has been closed for new episodes as of early 2024. Concussion Connect is also closed.
Thank you to everyone who was so supportive over the years and I hope these episodes continue to help others as they come across them!
I have set on a new venture (with a pen name - Izzy Barry) you can learn more about here
https://izzybarry.substack.com/
--
Ever found yourself struggling with eye strain, focusing issues or peripheral vision problems after a concussion? We're excited to welcome Dr. Dan Myers, a seasoned optometrist and an expert in neuro optometry with over a decade of experience. His deep understanding of the human eye and brain functions opens up a world of possibilities for understanding concussions and post-concussion syndrome.
You'll be fascinated to know how our eyesight, especially peripheral vision, plays a major role in our sensory integration. Dr. Myers reveals the impact of concussion on peripheral vision and how it can turn regular tasks into stress-inducing activities. But there's a silver lining, indeed. Dr. Myers shares his arsenal of techniques that can assist in making reading and driving a less daunting task.
Wrapping up, we emphasize the importance of individualized treatment, because, let's face it, no two brains, or concussions, are the same.
Connect with Dr. Dan Myers https://www.everseeeye.com/
Find Show Notes, Transcript & More: https://postconcussioninc.com/podcast
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Bella Paige (00:03):
Hi everyone.
I'm your host, Bella Paige, andafter suffering from post
concussion syndrome for years,it was time to do something
about it.
So welcome to the postconcussion podcast, where we dig
deep into life when it doesn'tgo back to normal.
Be sure to share the podcastand join our support network,
Concussion Connect.
Let's make this invisibleinjury become visible.
(00:25):
The Post Concussion Podcast isstrictly an information podcast
about concussions and postconcussion syndrome.
It does not provide norsubstitute for professional
medical advice, diagnosis ortreatment.
Always seek the advice of yourphysician or another qualified
(00:46):
health provider with anyquestions you may have regarding
a medical condition.
Never disregard professionalmedical advice or delay in
seeking it because of somethingyou have heard on this podcast.
The opinions expressed in thispodcast are simply intended to
spark discussion aboutconcussions and post concussion
syndrome.
(01:06):
Welcome to episode 119 of thePost Concussion Podcast with
myself, Bella Paige and today'sguest, Dr Dan Myers.
Dr Myers, an optometrist withover 10 years, is seasoned in
both traditional eye care andneuro optometry.
Having spent time in hospital,clinical and retail settings, dr
(01:26):
Myers has helped children andadults see, feel and look better
using optical techniques.
His philosophy is to look ateach patient's individual needs
and create a plan to help themthrough with the use of
traditional eye care, neurooptometry methods and lens and
frame selection.
Dr Myers learned and studiedunder a world renowned neuro
optometrist and methods to useoptometry to improve the brain
(01:50):
and functions it controls.
He then opened his own officein Winnetka, illinois, where he
sees and examines those withlearning challenges and others
with symptoms from concussionsand other neurological problems.
As a graduate of the Universityof Kansas, Dr Myers is a
diehard Jayhawk fan.
He received his Doctor ofOptometry from the University of
Missouri, st Louis.
(02:10):
He currently resides inHighland Park, illinois, where
he enjoys running beer,basketball and raising his two
little ones.
Welcome, dan.
Dr. Dan Myers (02:20):
Hi Bella, I'm so happy to be here today.
Bella Paige (02:22):
So, to start, do you want to tell us a little bit
about what created yourinterest in helping and treating
concussion survivors?
Dr. Dan Myers (02:29):
Sure, my career has actually changed a lot since
I graduated from school.
Originally, I joined a privatepractice that was primarily
contact lens specialty center,where people would go if they
had uniquely shaped eyes andgeneral contact lenses, like
soft contact lenses, didn't fitso well.
(02:50):
I was taking care of a lot ofpeople with cataracts, with
glaucoma, with dry eyes, and itwas great.
I really really enjoyed it.
I also worked in a hospitalwhere I took care of similar
patients and early in my careerI did come across a few people
that had concussions or braininjuries, but at that point in
my career I didn't know how totake care of them effectively.
(03:13):
I specifically remember thisreally, really nice lady from
Minnesota and every year she'dcome in and she'd tell me about
the way things used to be beforeher accident.
This is about 10 years ago andat that point I had no idea that
there were so many options andoptometry to help these sort of
(03:34):
people.
I moved to Chicago about sevenyears ago and I started working
with this woman who taught menot only how to treat patients
with concussions or braininjuries, but to look at
patients in a whole new way.
Once I started working withthese patients, I started to
look at optometry completelydifferently.
Who knew optometrists couldhelp patients with symptoms like
(03:57):
being overwhelmed in a grocerystore and anxiety?
There's so many things we cando.
Those patients who come in withconcussion symptoms they don't
say make me see better.
They say I want to feel better.
They know something's changedand their environment is not as
comfortable to them as it wasbefore.
I never looked back.
It honestly was so much moregratifying in helping and
(04:21):
improving these patients'lifestyles than just giving them
glasses or contact lenses tomake their eyesight better.
I guess I saw enough people whohad a similar story and then
that happened like a concussionand they saw everyone under the
sun that they were referred toand they just weren't getting
better.
So I really enjoy helping thesepeople and using all the tools
that optometry has in order todo it.
Bella Paige (04:42):
I really like that I think it's true Like when I
would go to an optometrist ormine.
It wasn't that I couldn't see,I already had glasses that I
already used to be able to see,like you know, the board in
school books, just anything, andI needed something more.
You know, I would read booksand my eyes would hurt and I
(05:04):
couldn't keep up with readingbecause it would cause headaches
or like all these things.
Or the grocery store like youmentioned.
It's funny that you mentionedthat because we released a comic
last month.
We do a monthly comic onConcussion Connect and in the
comic it's like the girl that'sthe main character in all the
comics with the brain and theywalk into a grocery store and
(05:25):
the brain is like no, not today.
And then they walk back out andthey're like good choice, like
you know, and it kind of justreminds me of like grocery
stores are a really big onewhere it's just too much, it's
commonly brought up, wherepeople like I can't go to the
grocery store, which is supposedto be.
Like you know something, you'renot supposed to think about you
just, but when after a braininjury, after a concussion,
(05:46):
things kind of change.
So when we talked before.
We talked about somethingcalled peripheral vision, and
for me it was more like I wouldwalk into things all the time.
But do you want to talk abouthow peripheral vision really
does have to do with, likesensory integration, with how we
talked about?
You know, the grocery storebeing way too much?
Dr. Dan Myers (06:05):
Oh sure.
So peripheral eyesight has ahuge role and it's not really
looked at very much in optometry.
There is conscious peripheraleyesight and subconscious
peripheral eyesight.
So when I'm looking at a screen, I can pick something on the
screen and see it, but there's alot more signals going into
(06:27):
your eyes than just what you'relooking at and that's your
subconscious peripheral eyesight.
So 100% of the time, signalsare going to your eyes and
they're sending your brainsignals.
And if they're sending yourbrain bad signals, then your
peripheral eyesight is sendingyour brain maybe some good
signals, maybe some bad signals,but it can create some stress,
(06:48):
it can create some disorder andthat's a lot of the things that
are happening for people afterthey've got concussions.
So peripheral eyesight we havecentral eyesight, which is our
classic 2020 eyesight, and wehave peripheral eyesight, which
is pretty much everything else.
So you go to the traditionaloptometrist, you get a
prescription that corrects youreyes for 2020 eyesight.
Everybody cares about 2020eyesight.
(07:10):
I get it.
It's important.
People talk about it, but wehave to assess the peripheral
eyesight for people that aremore sensitive.
Bella Paige (07:18):
Yeah, so how do they do that?
Most people know whatperipheral eyesight is.
It's outside of that, likedirect vision line, but how
would you even test that?
Dr. Dan Myers (07:26):
You got it.
So when I think of theperiphery, it's peripheral
eyesight and you have to includeyour ears too.
It's all the sensory signalsgoing into your brain.
So you have peripheral eyesight, which is what you're seeing
and sometimes what you're notseeing, and you have your
awareness of space that's aroundyou.
That's kind of what your earsare telling you as well.
So when I see patients, when Ido my testing, we have to test
(07:49):
their eyes and we have to testtheir ears at the same time.
And we're not doing any hearingtests, we're not testing can
they hear, can they not hear?
We're testing different lenses,different options to see how
that's gonna affect thesignaling that's going into each
patient's brain and it's notreally a one size fit all manner
(08:10):
.
You know, every single personcomes in, every person has a
different brain and every personis going to either do well or
do poorly with certain lenses.
So we test them, we test eyes,we test ears and we test their
awareness of their surroundingsand we see what specific lenses
is gonna make them the mostcomfortable.
Bella Paige (08:31):
I really like the individuality of it, because I
think it's really important withconcussion care and brain
injury care, because all thetime we think, oh well, this
worked for so many people buteveryone is so different.
And that's where it's reallyimportant to really think about
what you have issues with.
Like I wasn't walking intothings on the left side, I was
(08:51):
only walking into things with myright shoulder, to the point
where, like every doorframe somedays I'd be like how can I not
figure out where these are?
I'd be like I grew up in thishouse and I'm running into the
walls, like someone explainedthis to me.
So it's definitely somethingthat can be really frustrating.
I'm sure some people have it alot worse than I did.
I didn't really notice that itwas my eyes at first, you know,
(09:14):
I just always thought I was justoff, I guess, if that makes
sense, like I just didn't feelbalanced, like if I close my
eyes I'd fall over, I couldnever stand on one foot, like
those types of things, because Ijust tip.
But it is something that can bereally helpful when we think
about things like daily tasks,like from the grocery store to
(09:35):
driving, and driving issomething I want to talk about
today, because some peopleeither have no problem with it
at all or it's a nightmare aftertheir concussion and they
actually become afraid to drive.
Dr. Dan Myers (09:48):
Yeah, driving is pretty tough for some people
after they've had a head injuryor concussions and it's because
we've taken a lot of sensoryinformation when we're driving.
Even if, even if you're drivingthrough a scene with not not so
many things, you're stillmoving and as you move, your
periphery is taking ininformation.
You could be watching the carin front of you, could watch the
(10:10):
horizon, you could be lookingstraight ahead the trees, the
signs, the other cars that go by.
That's a stimuli that's goingby.
Your periphery is sending thatyour brain signals.
For most people They've adapted, they have visual skills, they
have no problem doing that.
But when you have a very, veryhypersensitive periphery, it's
(10:30):
really uncomfortable when youdeal with something like that.
Bella Paige (10:34):
So if you do deal with something like that, we've
mentioned peripheral vision, sowhat can you do about it?
You get the testing done.
Now what?
Dr. Dan Myers (10:43):
Well, there's a lot of stuff we can do with our
periphery.
So I've listened to yourpodcast in the past.
I know your listeners.
They all know about yournervous system.
They know about the autonomicnervous system and the branches
with parasympathetic, with thesympathetic.
So we know that lots of peoplewho had concussions have a
(11:05):
hypersensitive sympatheticnervous system.
They're in fight or flight.
They're uncomfortable, but ournervous system is connected with
the periphery.
Our peripheral retina isconnected with the nervous
system.
If our periphery isoversensitive, we potentially
can be in fight or flight.
I like to prescribe lenses to mypatients that not only helps
(11:25):
them be more comfortable driving, but it helps calm their
overall nervous system.
And we can do that with lenses.
There's different types oflenses.
They may not make you see super, super sharp, but they'll make
you feel comfortable and ifdriving is an issue, we try to
use these lenses.
That will help you feel morecalm.
They'll help you feel lessstressed.
(11:45):
When you're more calm on thatstress, driving will be easier
and even if certain signals arebeing sent that normally bugged
you, you should be able to drivea little more efficiently.
Bella Paige (11:56):
And so these lenses .
Something that there'sbuzzwords in the concussion
world is prisms.
So are they prisms?
Are they like prisms?
Well, they're different.
Dr. Dan Myers (12:06):
It's really funny because I've come across so
many people and lots of peopletalk about prisms and some
people are.
It's almost like they're twosides of the table.
Some people are on pro-prismsand some people are absolutely
against prisms.
It was a couple of weeks ago.
I met with a family this wasfor a child, for a more of a
learning case.
At the very very end she askedare there other prisms in the
(12:28):
glasses?
We go to a certain therapistand the therapist says she won't
see us anymore if there'sprisms in their lenses.
So I think over time prismshave got a bad rap, but again
it's on an individual basis.
So not every lens that we dohas prisms.
Not every lens that we do haspower in it.
It's again it's on thatindividual basis.
(12:49):
So some people may need it.
Some prism I've seen peoplemakes a huge difference.
Other people they've triedprisms in it.
I remember a couple of weeksago this one woman put on prism
Not her glasses, just like theselittle goggles and it made her
really uncomfortable.
So prism is not for everyone.
It makes your eyes do a reflexmovement, it might change your
(13:12):
chin position, and so somepeople are it's good for, some
people it's not good for.
And these lenses they may ormay not have prism, they may or
may not have lenses.
We use filters as well.
Filters can help dampen certainsignals.
So people who are veryhypersensitive to the periphery,
dampening certain signals thatgo into the brain can be very
(13:35):
comfortable for them as well.
Bella Paige (13:37):
I like that answer because you're right Prisms like
people are like I need prismsand they go get them.
And then there's the opposite,where people like prisms are
terrible.
So there's definitely bothsides of the bandwagon, but
that's pretty normal.
But I'd like you know theapproach of that.
It really depends on what yoursituation is.
(13:57):
Not everyone needs them, butmaybe you do.
So that's really important.
And something I really want totalk about today, because it was
one of my biggest challenges,is reading.
But we are going to get intoreading, why reading can be so
challenging, what we can doabout it and some treatments
behind it.
Right after the break.
Did you want to createawareness about concussions?
(14:21):
You can check out our entireclothing line through the link
in the episode description or goto our website,
postconcussioninc.
com and click awareness merchfrom t-shirts, sweaters, tank
tops and multiple designs,including the podcast.
Nothing mild about a concussionand more.
Make sure to pause this episoderight now and order yours
(14:43):
before you forget, just like Iwould Welcome back to the
postconcussion podcast with myself-built page and today's
guest, Dr Dan Myers.
So something I wanted to talkabout was reading, because
reading has been something Istruggled with for a really long
time From.
I couldn't look at the page to.
I would look at the words andthey go blurry to just so many
(15:06):
things, so many challenges, alot of fatigue.
Or I'd read a page and my brainwould hurt.
So there's a long list onreasons of what I couldn't read,
but it is something a lot ofpeople deal with.
So do we want to get into alittle bit about you know why,
the treatments and all that?
Dr. Dan Myers (15:23):
Sure.
Well, let's first talk aboutwhat happens when we do read.
So first, we know thatconcussions can really disrupt
people's ability to read.
When you read, you have to takeyour eyes, you have to aim them
, you have to point them.
You have to constantly scanfrom letter to letter or words
to words.
You constantly have to judgethe space.
(15:43):
You have to aim and point youreyes.
At the same time, you have toprocess and comprehend
everything that you're reading.
And if you're a really goodreader, you have to make
pictures in your head aboutwhat's happening when you're
reading.
Otherwise you're going toforget everything that you've
already read and you do thisover and over and over.
So I would say, usually for atop five list, difficulty
(16:05):
reading is usually up there forpeople exhibiting concussion
symptoms.
I can't really remember anyonecoming in saying, yeah, yeah,
reading is no problem, readingis really, really easy.
So a lot of the times when Isee patients, we talk about
goals and readings up there.
What I like to do is try tofigure out and determine why
people are having a hard timereading.
So we talked about judgment ofspace.
(16:27):
Sometimes that's the reason.
Sometimes it's thehypersensitive periphery.
You're trying to take your eyes.
You're trying to look atletters and words, but your eyes
are sending your brain otherinformation about other stuff,
and it's easily to getdistracted.
You get distracted and youstart thinking about something
else.
Your mind wanders.
You can get distractedinternally.
(16:48):
Externally, you could hearpeople next to you making sounds
.
You could hear a car go make asound.
Outside.
You could start thinking aboutwhat you're going to have for
dinner the next day.
There's so many reasons whyreading is hard, and a lot of
lenses that we use can makereading a lot more easy and a
lot more effective.
Bella Paige (17:08):
I like the.
You know that we can't tunethings out essentially right
Like that.
Filtering process can disappearfor a lot of people I know.
If I go back to when I was 14,before I'll just start it I
could sit in a room I grew upwith a very loud house full of
siblings and their friends andthey could run around, have the
(17:32):
TV on, somebody could be cooking, there could be yelling and I
wouldn't hear a thing.
I could just sit there, Iwouldn't even notice them run by
me and I would just be in mybook like I'd be reading,
enjoying my time, with all thehectic craziness going on,
because I've always been, Iguess, the odd one out in the
family sitting there reading abook instead of running around
(17:52):
like crazy.
It really is something a lot ofpeople do struggle with.
Like you said, it's not reallysomething people skip.
There's always differences inrecovery and maybe what bugs
people about reading, but I dofind most people do struggle
with it for sure.
Dr. Dan Myers (18:08):
So when I examine people who want to improve
their reading, we like to lookat lenses, we like to look at
filters, we like to look atvisual skills too.
That's a little bit differentthan vision therapy, which
there's definitely a place forvision therapy working with eye
movements, moving your eyes outand but for visual skills that's
(18:29):
something that vision therapydoesn't do.
Visual skills are a little bitdifferent from vision therapy.
There are more activities thatyou can do kind of in your head,
or thinking activities orjudgment of space, activities
that are similar skills toreading, but much, much easier.
It's kind of hard to tellsomeone who's had an injury oh,
you're reading, just go read abook and get better when it's
(18:51):
really, really difficult to readeven a line or a paragraph.
But if you're just thinkingabout stuff in your head and
you're doing these certainactivities, it's way easier to
do.
So that's usually part of thetreatment to improve yourself.
Do these visual skills, and ittranslates nicely to when you
actually do want to read.
All of a sudden you can do itwith a lot less effort.
Bella Paige (19:11):
I really like that.
Nobody's ever mentioned thatbefore.
Over 100 episodes in.
Always interesting things comeup.
Vision therapy is talked aboutwidely, especially on social
media it's kind of everywherebut visual skills is definitely
something that nobody's reallyfocused on.
So can you give us an exampleof what a skill could be that
(19:32):
somebody would practice?
Dr. Dan Myers (19:34):
Well, sure.
So when you read, you multitask, because we talk about moving
our eyes and thinkingsimultaneously.
After concussion, that's kindof hard to do.
So we give you a simplemultitasking activity like
moving your legs, you're movingyour arms and talking at the
same time, or counting andtalking, something that you
actually have to think about,something you have to do a motor
(19:56):
movement about, which is thesame kind of movement as your
eyes, but it's way less effortthan actual reading.
So you do a task that's kind ofdifficult but in your alley of
ability, and it helps build avisual skill.
Bella Paige (20:11):
I think that's really great.
We were talking about how weget these glasses or lenses that
can help, and so are theselenses supposed to be a
permanent fix, something thatpeople try out for a little
while.
What's the process in that?
Dr. Dan Myers (20:27):
That's a good question.
There are two different typesof glasses.
There are glasses for peoplewho need to see.
So, with all the people who'vehad concussions, there's
definitely people like you whohave worn glasses all their life
and need glasses to see.
I also see a lot of people alot of kids, lots of adults
who've never worn glasses intheir life.
(20:48):
And when we use glasses as atherapeutic tool to improve
symptoms from concussions,usually it's temporary and I
would love to tell you howtemporary it is.
But everyone again is different.
Some people need them for a fewmonths, some people need them
for a couple of years andwhenever I tell someone my guess
, it's usually wrong, like whyam I ever?
(21:09):
One guy came in and I said thatprobably eight months and he
came back two or three monthslater and he's like my headaches
are better.
I feel great.
I try not to guess.
Bella Paige (21:19):
That's fair.
I get a lot of people ask meI'm dealing with all this, how
long do you think it'll take meto get better, or how long do
you think it'll take for me tonotice if I start this therapy
and I'm like number one no MD,here, I'm number two who know?
Like even your therapist can'talways know.
I actually like that, becausesomething I encourage people a
(21:42):
lot is to go to the medicalprofessionals that don't promise
how fast you'll get better,because the ones that actually
know how this works know thatthere is no, we don't know.
We can assume, kind of guess,like oh, you should feel better
by a certain time, but mostpeople that promise you know
what You'll be better in a month, like everything will be
perfect, usually they're missinga few things that you need to
(22:04):
do.
Something I really liked thatyou said on the break was about
the calmness.
So you know, brain injuries,concussions, it's exhausting.
You can feel really tired,really overwhelmed.
You know there's just so manynew things going on and just
relaxing and feeling calm almostfeels at a reach because all
(22:26):
the things you used to do, maybeto feel calm, are kind of gone.
So how does calmness become agoal with vision?
Dr. Dan Myers (22:34):
Well, because we talked about earlier how your
eyes are connected to yournervous system.
So we can use the lenses astools for many things, but also
as a tool to calm your nervoussystem.
So everyone's different andeverybody's treatment plan is a
little bit different as well.
One of my goals for when peoplecome in and they're in fight or
flight, one of my goals isfirst, we have to make them feel
(22:56):
more calm.
That's usually what we try todo first, because we can give
them glasses to make them seebetter.
We can make them give themglasses to read better.
But if they're stressed, iftheir sympathetic nervous system
is overstimulated, that's notgoing to make them feel any
better.
So they first need to feel calm, they need to feel relaxed.
Once that happens, then a lotof things can come along nicely.
(23:18):
So we use the lenses, thedifferent way that the lenses
are made, to help calm thenervous system.
Bella Paige (23:25):
Yeah, I think that's a really good goal of
vision therapy, because I think,or vision help, because I think
a lot of time we go in notreally knowing what we're going
to get, like why are we doingthis?
What's the point?
And I think calmness is areally good one.
It's a good selling point, Iguess, on how it can help, and
(23:46):
we've talked about a lot fromperipheral vision and driving
problems, reading problems, howthese are really common across
survivors, how there's lenses,there's skills.
Now that we've added to ourlist of things on the podcast,
and so is there anything elseyou would like to add before
ending today's episode?
Dr. Dan Myers (24:08):
For the survivors , for everybody who's
experienced an injury andexperienced a concussion.
Sometimes it's tough to see thelight at the end of the tunnel.
Sometimes it's tough to keep apositive outlook, but I think
that's really, really importanttoo.
I tell all my patients it'sgoing to get better.
It's not going to be like thisforever.
We wish those symptoms are asquick as possible.
(24:28):
Unfortunately, sometimes theylast a long time.
Sometimes they last a week,sometimes they're months,
sometimes they're years.
But things do get better andthere's always new things and
non-invasive things to try.
There's so many differentoptions now.
There's a lot of research goingon, but most people don't think
about having their eyes checkedor going to specialty sort of
(24:51):
service like an optometrist or aneuro-optometrist and have
their peripheral eyesightevaluated, and that's something
that survivors should know as anoption if they're not getting
better, as a treatment plan.
Bella Paige (25:04):
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense, because usually we
just do our 2020 check, likeyou said, and if we don't need
that, we're like, oh, we're allgood.
But there is a lot more to itthan that and I really like that
.
You mentioned there's newthings.
I think that's the best partabout now, versus over 10 years
ago, when I started is theresearch is getting better.
(25:25):
It's continuing.
There's new things.
I always tell people I'm likewho knows what will come out
next year?
It's changing all the time.
Old research, new research itkeeps coming out, which is
really beneficial for everyonewho's dealing with symptoms
right now.
So I just want to thank you somuch for joining us today and
sharing some of your work witheyes after concussion.
Dr. Dan Myers (25:45):
It was my pleasure.
Bella Paige (25:47):
Need more than just this podcast.
Be sure to check out ourwebsite postconcussioninc.
com, to see how we can help youin your post concussion life,
from a support network toone-on-one coaching.
I believe life can get betterbecause I've lived through it.
Make sure you take it one dayat a time.
Hi everyone.
I'm your host, Bella Paige, andafter suffering from post
concussion syndrome for years,it was time to do something
about it.
So welcome to the postconcussion podcast, where we dig
deep into life when it doesn'tgo back to normal.
Be sure to share the podcastand join our support network,
Concussion Connect.
Let's make this invisibleinjury become visible.
(00:25):
The Post Concussion Podcast isstrictly an information podcast
about concussions and postconcussion syndrome.
It does not provide norsubstitute for professional
medical advice, diagnosis ortreatment.
Always seek the advice of yourphysician or another qualified
(00:46):
health provider with anyquestions you may have regarding
a medical condition.
Never disregard professionalmedical advice or delay in
seeking it because of somethingyou have heard on this podcast.
The opinions expressed in thispodcast are simply intended to
spark discussion aboutconcussions and post concussion
syndrome.
(01:06):
Welcome to episode 119 of thePost Concussion Podcast with
myself, Bella Paige and today'sguest, Dr Dan Myers.
Dr Myers, an optometrist withover 10 years, is seasoned in
both traditional eye care andneuro optometry.
Having spent time in hospital,clinical and retail settings, dr
(01:26):
Myers has helped children andadults see, feel and look better
using optical techniques.
His philosophy is to look ateach patient's individual needs
and create a plan to help themthrough with the use of
traditional eye care, neurooptometry methods and lens and
frame selection.
Dr Myers learned and studiedunder a world renowned neuro
optometrist and methods to useoptometry to improve the brain
(01:50):
and functions it controls.
He then opened his own officein Winnetka, illinois, where he
sees and examines those withlearning challenges and others
with symptoms from concussionsand other neurological problems.
As a graduate of the Universityof Kansas, Dr Myers is a
diehard Jayhawk fan.
He received his Doctor ofOptometry from the University of
Missouri, st Louis.
(02:10):
He currently resides inHighland Park, illinois, where
he enjoys running beer,basketball and raising his two
little ones.
Welcome, dan.
Dr. Dan Myers (02:20):
Hi Bella, I'm so happy to be here today.
Bella Paige (02:22):
So, to start, do you want to tell us a little bit
about what created yourinterest in helping and treating
concussion survivors?
Dr. Dan Myers (02:29):
Sure, my career has actually changed a lot since
I graduated from school.
Originally, I joined a privatepractice that was primarily
contact lens specialty center,where people would go if they
had uniquely shaped eyes andgeneral contact lenses, like
soft contact lenses, didn't fitso well.
(02:50):
I was taking care of a lot ofpeople with cataracts, with
glaucoma, with dry eyes, and itwas great.
I really really enjoyed it.
I also worked in a hospitalwhere I took care of similar
patients and early in my careerI did come across a few people
that had concussions or braininjuries, but at that point in
my career I didn't know how totake care of them effectively.
(03:13):
I specifically remember thisreally, really nice lady from
Minnesota and every year she'dcome in and she'd tell me about
the way things used to be beforeher accident.
This is about 10 years ago andat that point I had no idea that
there were so many options andoptometry to help these sort of
(03:34):
people.
I moved to Chicago about sevenyears ago and I started working
with this woman who taught menot only how to treat patients
with concussions or braininjuries, but to look at
patients in a whole new way.
Once I started working withthese patients, I started to
look at optometry completelydifferently.
Who knew optometrists couldhelp patients with symptoms like
(03:57):
being overwhelmed in a grocerystore and anxiety?
There's so many things we cando.
Those patients who come in withconcussion symptoms they don't
say make me see better.
They say I want to feel better.
They know something's changedand their environment is not as
comfortable to them as it wasbefore.
I never looked back.
It honestly was so much moregratifying in helping and
(04:21):
improving these patients'lifestyles than just giving them
glasses or contact lenses tomake their eyesight better.
I guess I saw enough people whohad a similar story and then
that happened like a concussionand they saw everyone under the
sun that they were referred toand they just weren't getting
better.
So I really enjoy helping thesepeople and using all the tools
that optometry has in order todo it.
Bella Paige (04:42):
I really like that I think it's true Like when I
would go to an optometrist ormine.
It wasn't that I couldn't see,I already had glasses that I
already used to be able to see,like you know, the board in
school books, just anything, andI needed something more.
You know, I would read booksand my eyes would hurt and I
(05:04):
couldn't keep up with readingbecause it would cause headaches
or like all these things.
Or the grocery store like youmentioned.
It's funny that you mentionedthat because we released a comic
last month.
We do a monthly comic onConcussion Connect and in the
comic it's like the girl that'sthe main character in all the
comics with the brain and theywalk into a grocery store and
(05:25):
the brain is like no, not today.
And then they walk back out andthey're like good choice, like
you know, and it kind of justreminds me of like grocery
stores are a really big onewhere it's just too much, it's
commonly brought up, wherepeople like I can't go to the
grocery store, which is supposedto be.
Like you know something, you'renot supposed to think about you
just, but when after a braininjury, after a concussion,
(05:46):
things kind of change.
So when we talked before.
We talked about somethingcalled peripheral vision, and
for me it was more like I wouldwalk into things all the time.
But do you want to talk abouthow peripheral vision really
does have to do with, likesensory integration, with how we
talked about?
You know, the grocery storebeing way too much?
Dr. Dan Myers (06:05):
Oh sure.
So peripheral eyesight has ahuge role and it's not really
looked at very much in optometry.
There is conscious peripheraleyesight and subconscious
peripheral eyesight.
So when I'm looking at a screen, I can pick something on the
screen and see it, but there's alot more signals going into
(06:27):
your eyes than just what you'relooking at and that's your
subconscious peripheral eyesight.
So 100% of the time, signalsare going to your eyes and
they're sending your brainsignals.
And if they're sending yourbrain bad signals, then your
peripheral eyesight is sendingyour brain maybe some good
signals, maybe some bad signals,but it can create some stress,
(06:48):
it can create some disorder andthat's a lot of the things that
are happening for people afterthey've got concussions.
So peripheral eyesight we havecentral eyesight, which is our
classic 2020 eyesight, and wehave peripheral eyesight, which
is pretty much everything else.
So you go to the traditionaloptometrist, you get a
prescription that corrects youreyes for 2020 eyesight.
Everybody cares about 2020eyesight.
(07:10):
I get it.
It's important.
People talk about it, but wehave to assess the peripheral
eyesight for people that aremore sensitive.
Bella Paige (07:18):
Yeah, so how do they do that?
Most people know whatperipheral eyesight is.
It's outside of that, likedirect vision line, but how
would you even test that?
Dr. Dan Myers (07:26):
You got it.
So when I think of theperiphery, it's peripheral
eyesight and you have to includeyour ears too.
It's all the sensory signalsgoing into your brain.
So you have peripheral eyesight, which is what you're seeing
and sometimes what you're notseeing, and you have your
awareness of space that's aroundyou.
That's kind of what your earsare telling you as well.
So when I see patients, when Ido my testing, we have to test
(07:49):
their eyes and we have to testtheir ears at the same time.
And we're not doing any hearingtests, we're not testing can
they hear, can they not hear?
We're testing different lenses,different options to see how
that's gonna affect thesignaling that's going into each
patient's brain and it's notreally a one size fit all manner
(08:10):
.
You know, every single personcomes in, every person has a
different brain and every personis going to either do well or
do poorly with certain lenses.
So we test them, we test eyes,we test ears and we test their
awareness of their surroundingsand we see what specific lenses
is gonna make them the mostcomfortable.
Bella Paige (08:31):
I really like the individuality of it, because I
think it's really important withconcussion care and brain
injury care, because all thetime we think, oh well, this
worked for so many people buteveryone is so different.
And that's where it's reallyimportant to really think about
what you have issues with.
Like I wasn't walking intothings on the left side, I was
(08:51):
only walking into things with myright shoulder, to the point
where, like every doorframe somedays I'd be like how can I not
figure out where these are?
I'd be like I grew up in thishouse and I'm running into the
walls, like someone explainedthis to me.
So it's definitely somethingthat can be really frustrating.
I'm sure some people have it alot worse than I did.
I didn't really notice that itwas my eyes at first, you know,
(09:14):
I just always thought I was justoff, I guess, if that makes
sense, like I just didn't feelbalanced, like if I close my
eyes I'd fall over, I couldnever stand on one foot, like
those types of things, because Ijust tip.
But it is something that can bereally helpful when we think
about things like daily tasks,like from the grocery store to
(09:35):
driving, and driving issomething I want to talk about
today, because some peopleeither have no problem with it
at all or it's a nightmare aftertheir concussion and they
actually become afraid to drive.
Dr. Dan Myers (09:48):
Yeah, driving is pretty tough for some people
after they've had a head injuryor concussions and it's because
we've taken a lot of sensoryinformation when we're driving.
Even if, even if you're drivingthrough a scene with not not so
many things, you're stillmoving and as you move, your
periphery is taking ininformation.
You could be watching the carin front of you, could watch the
(10:10):
horizon, you could be lookingstraight ahead the trees, the
signs, the other cars that go by.
That's a stimuli that's goingby.
Your periphery is sending thatyour brain signals.
For most people They've adapted, they have visual skills, they
have no problem doing that.
But when you have a very, veryhypersensitive periphery, it's
(10:30):
really uncomfortable when youdeal with something like that.
Bella Paige (10:34):
So if you do deal with something like that, we've
mentioned peripheral vision, sowhat can you do about it?
You get the testing done.
Now what?
Dr. Dan Myers (10:43):
Well, there's a lot of stuff we can do with our
periphery.
So I've listened to yourpodcast in the past.
I know your listeners.
They all know about yournervous system.
They know about the autonomicnervous system and the branches
with parasympathetic, with thesympathetic.
So we know that lots of peoplewho had concussions have a
(11:05):
hypersensitive sympatheticnervous system.
They're in fight or flight.
They're uncomfortable, but ournervous system is connected with
the periphery.
Our peripheral retina isconnected with the nervous
system.
If our periphery isoversensitive, we potentially
can be in fight or flight.
I like to prescribe lenses to mypatients that not only helps
(11:25):
them be more comfortable driving, but it helps calm their
overall nervous system.
And we can do that with lenses.
There's different types oflenses.
They may not make you see super, super sharp, but they'll make
you feel comfortable and ifdriving is an issue, we try to
use these lenses.
That will help you feel morecalm.
They'll help you feel lessstressed.
(11:45):
When you're more calm on thatstress, driving will be easier
and even if certain signals arebeing sent that normally bugged
you, you should be able to drivea little more efficiently.
Bella Paige (11:56):
And so these lenses .
Something that there'sbuzzwords in the concussion
world is prisms.
So are they prisms?
Are they like prisms?
Well, they're different.
Dr. Dan Myers (12:06):
It's really funny because I've come across so
many people and lots of peopletalk about prisms and some
people are.
It's almost like they're twosides of the table.
Some people are on pro-prismsand some people are absolutely
against prisms.
It was a couple of weeks ago.
I met with a family this wasfor a child, for a more of a
learning case.
At the very very end she askedare there other prisms in the
(12:28):
glasses?
We go to a certain therapistand the therapist says she won't
see us anymore if there'sprisms in their lenses.
So I think over time prismshave got a bad rap, but again
it's on an individual basis.
So not every lens that we dohas prisms.
Not every lens that we do haspower in it.
It's again it's on thatindividual basis.
(12:49):
So some people may need it.
Some prism I've seen peoplemakes a huge difference.
Other people they've triedprisms in it.
I remember a couple of weeksago this one woman put on prism
Not her glasses, just like theselittle goggles and it made her
really uncomfortable.
So prism is not for everyone.
It makes your eyes do a reflexmovement, it might change your
(13:12):
chin position, and so somepeople are it's good for, some
people it's not good for.
And these lenses they may ormay not have prism, they may or
may not have lenses.
We use filters as well.
Filters can help dampen certainsignals.
So people who are veryhypersensitive to the periphery,
dampening certain signals thatgo into the brain can be very
(13:35):
comfortable for them as well.
Bella Paige (13:37):
I like that answer because you're right Prisms like
people are like I need prismsand they go get them.
And then there's the opposite,where people like prisms are
terrible.
So there's definitely bothsides of the bandwagon, but
that's pretty normal.
But I'd like you know theapproach of that.
It really depends on what yoursituation is.
(13:57):
Not everyone needs them, butmaybe you do.
So that's really important.
And something I really want totalk about today, because it was
one of my biggest challenges,is reading.
But we are going to get intoreading, why reading can be so
challenging, what we can doabout it and some treatments
behind it.
Right after the break.
Did you want to createawareness about concussions?
(14:21):
You can check out our entireclothing line through the link
in the episode description or goto our website,
postconcussioninc.
com and click awareness merchfrom t-shirts, sweaters, tank
tops and multiple designs,including the podcast.
Nothing mild about a concussionand more.
Make sure to pause this episoderight now and order yours
(14:43):
before you forget, just like Iwould Welcome back to the
postconcussion podcast with myself-built page and today's
guest, Dr Dan Myers.
So something I wanted to talkabout was reading, because
reading has been something Istruggled with for a really long
time From.
I couldn't look at the page to.
I would look at the words andthey go blurry to just so many
(15:06):
things, so many challenges, alot of fatigue.
Or I'd read a page and my brainwould hurt.
So there's a long list onreasons of what I couldn't read,
but it is something a lot ofpeople deal with.
So do we want to get into alittle bit about you know why,
the treatments and all that?
Dr. Dan Myers (15:23):
Sure.
Well, let's first talk aboutwhat happens when we do read.
So first, we know thatconcussions can really disrupt
people's ability to read.
When you read, you have to takeyour eyes, you have to aim them
, you have to point them.
You have to constantly scanfrom letter to letter or words
to words.
You constantly have to judgethe space.
(15:43):
You have to aim and point youreyes.
At the same time, you have toprocess and comprehend
everything that you're reading.
And if you're a really goodreader, you have to make
pictures in your head aboutwhat's happening when you're
reading.
Otherwise you're going toforget everything that you've
already read and you do thisover and over and over.
So I would say, usually for atop five list, difficulty
(16:05):
reading is usually up there forpeople exhibiting concussion
symptoms.
I can't really remember anyonecoming in saying, yeah, yeah,
reading is no problem, readingis really, really easy.
So a lot of the times when Isee patients, we talk about
goals and readings up there.
What I like to do is try tofigure out and determine why
people are having a hard timereading.
So we talked about judgment ofspace.
(16:27):
Sometimes that's the reason.
Sometimes it's thehypersensitive periphery.
You're trying to take your eyes.
You're trying to look atletters and words, but your eyes
are sending your brain otherinformation about other stuff,
and it's easily to getdistracted.
You get distracted and youstart thinking about something
else.
Your mind wanders.
You can get distractedinternally.
(16:48):
Externally, you could hearpeople next to you making sounds
.
You could hear a car go make asound.
Outside.
You could start thinking aboutwhat you're going to have for
dinner the next day.
There's so many reasons whyreading is hard, and a lot of
lenses that we use can makereading a lot more easy and a
lot more effective.
Bella Paige (17:08):
I like the.
You know that we can't tunethings out essentially right
Like that.
Filtering process can disappearfor a lot of people I know.
If I go back to when I was 14,before I'll just start it I
could sit in a room I grew upwith a very loud house full of
siblings and their friends andthey could run around, have the
(17:32):
TV on, somebody could be cooking, there could be yelling and I
wouldn't hear a thing.
I could just sit there, Iwouldn't even notice them run by
me and I would just be in mybook like I'd be reading,
enjoying my time, with all thehectic craziness going on,
because I've always been, Iguess, the odd one out in the
family sitting there reading abook instead of running around
(17:52):
like crazy.
It really is something a lot ofpeople do struggle with.
Like you said, it's not reallysomething people skip.
There's always differences inrecovery and maybe what bugs
people about reading, but I dofind most people do struggle
with it for sure.
Dr. Dan Myers (18:08):
So when I examine people who want to improve
their reading, we like to lookat lenses, we like to look at
filters, we like to look atvisual skills too.
That's a little bit differentthan vision therapy, which
there's definitely a place forvision therapy working with eye
movements, moving your eyes outand but for visual skills that's
(18:29):
something that vision therapydoesn't do.
Visual skills are a little bitdifferent from vision therapy.
There are more activities thatyou can do kind of in your head,
or thinking activities orjudgment of space, activities
that are similar skills toreading, but much, much easier.
It's kind of hard to tellsomeone who's had an injury oh,
you're reading, just go read abook and get better when it's
(18:51):
really, really difficult to readeven a line or a paragraph.
But if you're just thinkingabout stuff in your head and
you're doing these certainactivities, it's way easier to
do.
So that's usually part of thetreatment to improve yourself.
Do these visual skills, and ittranslates nicely to when you
actually do want to read.
All of a sudden you can do itwith a lot less effort.
Bella Paige (19:11):
I really like that.
Nobody's ever mentioned thatbefore.
Over 100 episodes in.
Always interesting things comeup.
Vision therapy is talked aboutwidely, especially on social
media it's kind of everywherebut visual skills is definitely
something that nobody's reallyfocused on.
So can you give us an exampleof what a skill could be that
(19:32):
somebody would practice?
Dr. Dan Myers (19:34):
Well, sure.
So when you read, you multitask, because we talk about moving
our eyes and thinkingsimultaneously.
After concussion, that's kindof hard to do.
So we give you a simplemultitasking activity like
moving your legs, you're movingyour arms and talking at the
same time, or counting andtalking, something that you
actually have to think about,something you have to do a motor
(19:56):
movement about, which is thesame kind of movement as your
eyes, but it's way less effortthan actual reading.
So you do a task that's kind ofdifficult but in your alley of
ability, and it helps build avisual skill.
Bella Paige (20:11):
I think that's really great.
We were talking about how weget these glasses or lenses that
can help, and so are theselenses supposed to be a
permanent fix, something thatpeople try out for a little
while.
What's the process in that?
Dr. Dan Myers (20:27):
That's a good question.
There are two different typesof glasses.
There are glasses for peoplewho need to see.
So, with all the people who'vehad concussions, there's
definitely people like you whohave worn glasses all their life
and need glasses to see.
I also see a lot of people alot of kids, lots of adults
who've never worn glasses intheir life.
(20:48):
And when we use glasses as atherapeutic tool to improve
symptoms from concussions,usually it's temporary and I
would love to tell you howtemporary it is.
But everyone again is different.
Some people need them for a fewmonths, some people need them
for a couple of years andwhenever I tell someone my guess
, it's usually wrong, like whyam I ever?
(21:09):
One guy came in and I said thatprobably eight months and he
came back two or three monthslater and he's like my headaches
are better.
I feel great.
I try not to guess.
Bella Paige (21:19):
That's fair.
I get a lot of people ask meI'm dealing with all this, how
long do you think it'll take meto get better, or how long do
you think it'll take for me tonotice if I start this therapy
and I'm like number one no MD,here, I'm number two who know?
Like even your therapist can'talways know.
I actually like that, becausesomething I encourage people a
(21:42):
lot is to go to the medicalprofessionals that don't promise
how fast you'll get better,because the ones that actually
know how this works know thatthere is no, we don't know.
We can assume, kind of guess,like oh, you should feel better
by a certain time, but mostpeople that promise you know
what You'll be better in a month, like everything will be
perfect, usually they're missinga few things that you need to
(22:04):
do.
Something I really liked thatyou said on the break was about
the calmness.
So you know, brain injuries,concussions, it's exhausting.
You can feel really tired,really overwhelmed.
You know there's just so manynew things going on and just
relaxing and feeling calm almostfeels at a reach because all
(22:26):
the things you used to do, maybeto feel calm, are kind of gone.
So how does calmness become agoal with vision?
Dr. Dan Myers (22:34):
Well, because we talked about earlier how your
eyes are connected to yournervous system.
So we can use the lenses astools for many things, but also
as a tool to calm your nervoussystem.
So everyone's different andeverybody's treatment plan is a
little bit different as well.
One of my goals for when peoplecome in and they're in fight or
flight, one of my goals isfirst, we have to make them feel
(22:56):
more calm.
That's usually what we try todo first, because we can give
them glasses to make them seebetter.
We can make them give themglasses to read better.
But if they're stressed, iftheir sympathetic nervous system
is overstimulated, that's notgoing to make them feel any
better.
So they first need to feel calm, they need to feel relaxed.
Once that happens, then a lotof things can come along nicely.
(23:18):
So we use the lenses, thedifferent way that the lenses
are made, to help calm thenervous system.
Bella Paige (23:25):
Yeah, I think that's a really good goal of
vision therapy, because I think,or vision help, because I think
a lot of time we go in notreally knowing what we're going
to get, like why are we doingthis?
What's the point?
And I think calmness is areally good one.
It's a good selling point, Iguess, on how it can help, and
(23:46):
we've talked about a lot fromperipheral vision and driving
problems, reading problems, howthese are really common across
survivors, how there's lenses,there's skills.
Now that we've added to ourlist of things on the podcast,
and so is there anything elseyou would like to add before
ending today's episode?
Dr. Dan Myers (24:08):
For the survivors , for everybody who's
experienced an injury andexperienced a concussion.
Sometimes it's tough to see thelight at the end of the tunnel.
Sometimes it's tough to keep apositive outlook, but I think
that's really, really importanttoo.
I tell all my patients it'sgoing to get better.
It's not going to be like thisforever.
We wish those symptoms are asquick as possible.
(24:28):
Unfortunately, sometimes theylast a long time.
Sometimes they last a week,sometimes they're months,
sometimes they're years.
But things do get better andthere's always new things and
non-invasive things to try.
There's so many differentoptions now.
There's a lot of research goingon, but most people don't think
about having their eyes checkedor going to specialty sort of
(24:51):
service like an optometrist or aneuro-optometrist and have
their peripheral eyesightevaluated, and that's something
that survivors should know as anoption if they're not getting
better, as a treatment plan.
Bella Paige (25:04):
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense, because usually we
just do our 2020 check, likeyou said, and if we don't need
that, we're like, oh, we're allgood.
But there is a lot more to itthan that and I really like that
.
You mentioned there's newthings.
I think that's the best partabout now, versus over 10 years
ago, when I started is theresearch is getting better.
(25:25):
It's continuing.
There's new things.
I always tell people I'm likewho knows what will come out
next year?
It's changing all the time.
Old research, new research itkeeps coming out, which is
really beneficial for everyonewho's dealing with symptoms
right now.
So I just want to thank you somuch for joining us today and
sharing some of your work witheyes after concussion.
Dr. Dan Myers (25:45):
It was my pleasure.
Bella Paige (25:47):
Need more than just this podcast.
Be sure to check out ourwebsite postconcussioninc.
com, to see how we can help youin your post concussion life,
from a support network toone-on-one coaching.
I believe life can get betterbecause I've lived through it.
Make sure you take it one dayat a time.
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