November 23, 2023 • 28 mins
PLEASE READ!
Please note that The Post Concussion Podcast has been closed for new episodes as of early 2024. Concussion Connect is also closed.
Thank you to everyone who was so supportive over the years and I hope these episodes continue to help others as they come across them!
I have set on a new venture (with a pen name - Izzy Barry) you can learn more about here
https://izzybarry.substack.com/
--
Join us, your host Bella Paige and chiropractic physician Dr. Matheau Denner, as we navigate this complex topic, combining personal experiences with professional perspectives. We delve into the significance of post concussion syndrome and the importance of receiving appropriate treatment, especially when symptoms persist. With Dr. Denner's expertise, we break down the five key areas of treatment
From unraveling the mysteries of blood flow dysregulation to discussions around metabolic, inflammatory, and hormonal imbalances - we leave no stone unturned. We also highlight the importance of addressing and being evaluated for the five different treatment directions for a whole body apporach.
Feeling lost with what sypmtoms to focus on next? Listen in!!
Learn more about Dr. Denner's Clinic: https://dennerchiroperformance.com
Find show notes, transcript, & more: https://postconcussioninc.com/podcast
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Bella Paige (00:03):
Hi everyone.
I'm your host, Bella Paige, andafter suffering from post
concussion syndrome for years,it was time to do something
about it.
So welcome to the PostConcussion Podcast, where we dig
deep into life when it doesn'tgo back to normal.
Be sure to share the podcastand join our support network,
Concussion Connect.
Let's make this invisibleinjury become visible.
(00:27):
The Post Concussion Podcast isstrictly an information podcast
about concussions and postconcussion syndrome.
It does not provide norsubstitute for professional
medical advice, diagnosis ortreatment.
Always seek the advice of yourphysician or another qualified
health provider with anyquestions you may have regarding
a medical condition.
(00:47):
Never disregard professionalmedical advice or delay in
seeking it because of somethingyou have heard on this podcast.
The opinions expressed in thispodcast are simply intended to
spark discussion aboutconcussions and post concussion
syndrome.
Welcome to episode number 125of the Post Concussion Podcast
(01:09):
with myself, Bella Paige and DrMatheau Dr Denner is a
chiropractic physician andlicensed athletic trainer in
Charlotte, North Carolina,specializing in sports medicine
and rehabilitation.
Dr Denner uses his uniquebackground in manual therapy,
functional rehabilitation andjoint manipulation to treat
(01:30):
acute concussions, pcs and othermusculoskeletal conditions.
Welcome to the show, Matheau.
Dr. Matheau Denner (01:37):
Yeah, thank you for having me.
Bella Paige (01:39):
So, to start, do you want to talk us over a
little bit about what createdyour interest in concussions?
Dr. Matheau Denner (01:45):
Yeah.
So it's kind of a personalexperience how I got into
treating concussions and kind ofthe interest of taking care of
patients and PCS and that wholeworld.
So growing up I played soccerand had six diagnosed
concussions growing up, five ofwhich came from soccer, one ice
(02:06):
skating when I was younger, butthe last one put me in the
hospital for a little bit acouple of days at a subdural
hematoma.
So it was a little bit morethan a concussion.
But going through thoseexperiences and kind of going
through the process of seeingdifferent medical professionals
rehabbing it, dealing with thesymptoms that came along, I was
(02:27):
in that world.
And that was before I went toundergrad to be an athletic
trainer and before I went tochiropractic school.
It was all through kind of myhigh school playing career.
So once I got to undergrad I hada little interesting the
concussion space, saw it a tonas an athletic trainer.
But the treatment and the kindof idea around concussions,
(02:50):
specifically PCS too, wasn'teverything right I hoped for.
I hoped to learn differenttechniques, different ways of
thinking about it, but it wasreally traditional outlook.
It wasn't until I got tochiropractic school and I had
the privilege of hearing DrCameron Marshall talk about the
(03:10):
concussion space and PCS andjust like looking at the current
literature and everything hewas talking about really sparked
my interest because it turnedinto a personal kind of goal at
that point.
There is a lot we could do,especially in the chiropractic
world and the rehab world, so itreally got me excited for
continuing my education and kindof going down the route of
(03:30):
maybe helping people out thatyou know we're in a similar
situation as I was.
Bella Paige (03:35):
I really like how you said that you're trying to
help people, but also thedifferent aspects, like there is
different things you can do.
A lot of people reach out likewhat can I even do?
They don't even know where tostart, because you go into your
GP and they don't really knowmuch.
Maybe they'll send you to aneurologist and then that's kind
of where it ends for so manypeople, unless they can find the
(03:55):
right people to talk to or thateven have the knowledge,
because it's definitelysomething where, like in school,
it's talked about, but untilyou actually seek out your own
education on it, it's reallyhard to understand what you can
do for concussions.
So do you want to kind of walkus through?
You said there's lots ofoptions.
So when we talked before, youtalked about five main kind of
(04:18):
areas of where people can getsome help.
So do you want to start thereand then we'll just keep going
and see what happens?
Dr. Matheau Denner (04:26):
Yeah, absolutely so.
In the world of concussion thebig focus on manual therapy,
rehab and kind of what I do inthe treatment room is
specifically tailored to PCS.
So acute concussions we love tosee them.
We can do a lot in the initialstages to kind of get people set
up with a game plan so the riskof developing PCS is much lower
(04:50):
.
But kind of the bread andbutter of everything that we do
in the treatment room and thechiropractic and rehab world is
treating those patients thathave symptoms lasting longer
than the typical amount of time.
So I feel like that's whereeveryone kind of goes wrong with
their treatment plan, becauseit's all great until you're
(05:10):
stuck with symptoms and you'rebattling this for an extended
amount of time.
That's where it gets a littlebit tricky.
But there's a lot of things wecan do in both hands-on manual
therapy, rehab, nutritionalinterventions to really give you
the tools that you need to getsymptom relief and get you back
to where you were before theconcussion I'd love to talk
(05:31):
about.
There's really five maindysfunctions or aspects that we
treat for those PCS patients sowe can dive into each one of
those and talk a little bitabout them.
Bella Paige (05:42):
Yeah, I think that's great.
I think it's really importantto realize that there is things
you can do and different thingsyou can do in different aspects.
A lot of times we just feel solost and, like you said, it's
like you don't see acutepatients very often.
I'd say it's a lot less oftenbecause it's not the
recommendation.
We're working on that actuallyright now Just started working
(06:03):
on that, on getting ERs up tospeed on what they should be
giving patients, because they'rejust getting told to go home
and rest.
You know and I know that thatis not the answer, but if you
don't get told that's not theanswer, usually it's not for
months later where you're likeI'm still suffering, why am I
suffering?
Then people start to reach outfor help.
(06:24):
Let's start with one of thefive main categories.
What would be the first?
Dr. Matheau Denner (06:28):
one, the biggest one.
The first one that everyone cando and is kind of the big
jumping off point is it's calledblood flow dysregulation.
This incorporates exercise intothe treatment, but after a
concussion there's actually areduction in cerebral blood flow
.
There's different mechanisms inyour body that tell us how much
blood we should be getting andregulating depending on what
(06:50):
we're doing Say, we'reincreasing our heart rate, we're
getting up from sitting down.
There's different mechanisms inour body that help shunt blood
to the brain and elsewhere.
So this is a really common kindof dysfunction that happens
after a concussion injury.
Is that reduction in blood flow?
So this could equal headaches,dizziness, right, trouble,
(07:12):
focusing difficulty, you know,symptom provocation when we're
walking, jogging, trying to doany physical activity.
So there's a great study in2015 by Meyer and all that
showed that patients that hadPCS symptoms one month from
their concussion correlatedreally well with blood flow
dysregulation.
So they looked at a ton ofpatients, right, those who had a
(07:35):
full recovery, they didn't havesymptoms lasting longer than
seven to 14 days.
They didn't have thisdysregulation.
But those who were at a monthand still had some symptoms,
there was a correlation betweenthat blood flow dysregulation.
So we're not saying that everyconcussion patient has this
dysregulation because a lot ofthem it'll rehab over time and
(07:56):
they'll kind of get better withit.
But a certain population isgoing to have this.
So a big part of the treatmentis actually exercise.
So Letty and all so Letty DrLetty from University of Buffalo
and a couple of other of hiscolleagues developed the Buffalo
treadmill test.
So it's a test to determineyour sub symptom threshold heart
(08:18):
rate.
So it's the point where we'reworking out and we get a symptom
increase right.
We do a little bit of math andthat's your point where you're
working out and it's a greatrehab moving forward for
patients and you can get a lotof symptom relief by just moving
your body, getting active.
So the whole idea of rest iskind of out in the concussion
(08:38):
world.
Bella Paige (08:39):
Yeah, I really like the way you explain that,
because you kind of didn't justtalk about what it is, because
people sometimes are like, okay,blood flow dysregulation, how
do I know if I have that?
That is a huge thing.
And movement is huge.
We talk about that a lot.
On concussion connect, we havelike a yoga introductory
movement class just to getpeople comfortable with moving
(09:00):
again If they have kind ofcompletely halted all these
things.
And people always have a reallyhard time finding exercises
they feel like they can do.
That we always talk about likenobody said you had to go do it
for an hour, start slow.
You know you got to startsomewhere and then build up from
there, which is where thatbuffalo treadmill test does come
in.
So that's really great and Ithink it's really important.
Like you said, just because youdon't fit into this category
(09:22):
doesn't mean you won't fit intothe others and you might fit
into a few of them.
So you know, anybody who'slistening don't feel like
disheartened and be like, oh, Idon't deal with that.
Or I tried to exercise and ithasn't helped me because there's
a lot more to it than just that.
So what would be a secondcategory that can be addressed?
Dr. Matheau Denner (09:39):
Yeah.
So number two would bemetabolic, inflammatory and
hormonal.
So after any injury, right, weget an increase in inflammation.
It's kind of a normal processthat our bodies go through and
it's a healthy kind of normalthing that happens, right, we
want good inflammation, we wantthat healing to kind of start.
Where we want to stay away, orwhat we want to stay away from,
(10:00):
is that chronic inflammation.
So chronic systemicinflammation in our body has a
strong indication of causingsymptoms to linger around,
specifically headache feelingoff.
So we can do a great job withdiet and anti-inflammatory
supplements with your healthcareprovider to kind of kickstart
that process.
So I don't know, you'refamiliar with your listeners,
(10:21):
with the gut brain access.
I'm sure you talked about it.
Bella Paige (10:24):
We have talked about it a little bit before,
for sure.
Dr. Matheau Denner (10:27):
Yeah, so there's a strong correlation
between head injuries and thelining in our gut and how our
gut communicates with our brain.
So after an injury we get alittle bit of inflammation in
our gut and the gap junctions inour stomach, right the cells
that keep it together, they geta little bit spread out from
that inflammation.
So the particles that we eatright we break down the food
(10:48):
tiny particles get into ourbloodstream and our body.
You know it doesn't like that.
We go why, why are these thingshere?
Let's create a little bit ofinflammation, almost like an
autoimmune response to kind offix that process.
So if you're living in thatconstant state of inflammation,
really good way to kind of knockit out is kind of changing your
diet a little bit.
(11:09):
So avoiding kind of the refinedsugars, the pasta, the gluten,
dairy, it all has a goodindication of lower inflammation
and kind of helps symptoms inthat way.
Bella Paige (11:18):
I love that because we have our cookbook, which is
actually behind me that has aton of gluten-free, dairy-free,
low-inflammation meals inside ofit.
Because so many people benefitwhen they change and do it
slowly.
I always like to say don't cuteverything out at once because
sometimes then you're havinglike a different kind of
overreaction.
Like cutting out gluten all atonce will give you headaches.
(11:39):
People that do keto when theydo that and they switch, they go
completely gluten-free in a day.
Usually you get like a glutenheadache for a few days because
your body's not used to notgetting it.
So you know, slowly doesn'tmean you never have to eat it.
Just you know, instead ofeating maybe pasta, like you
said, try gluten-free pasta, tryrice You're changing it up a
little bit to try to get less ofthat inflammation.
(12:00):
The initial phase is reallyhard.
So slow, interactive, slow,taking things out, slow, adding
other things in can be reallyhelpful.
So that's really great.
And we're going to talk aboutone more category and after that
we'll take a quick break andget back to the last two.
So what would be the thirdcategory?
Dr. Matheau Denner (12:18):
Yeah.
So another thing we kind oflook at in the office is the
visual and vestibular system, sohow your eyes and how your ears
communicate with your brain andtell you where you are in space
.
So Christina Master did a studyin 2019 that showed that up to
70% of concussion patients havesome type of visual disturbance.
(12:39):
A lot of times you know it'sthe cervical spine.
It's different things In yourcase that's causing a little bit
of the tracking issue with youreyes.
In office we do somethingcalled a VOMS assessment
vestibular ocular motor screento determine what actual
mechanism in your eyes may bethrowing you off a little bit.
So really easy to kind of sortout in the initial stages of
(13:03):
giving you great rehab, to kindof go home.
A lot of times I've had patients, right, we have headaches from
reading, trouble, you know, justfeeling weird or off on outside
driving.
We're just dealing with some ofthese dysfunctions that happen.
So really the best rehab isgoing into your symptoms a
little bit.
(13:23):
So, like you said, startingslow and we gradually build it
up.
So let's just say reading gaveyou a headache, right, maybe we
work on saccades, right, we workon that motion of moving your
eyes across a page and slowlybut surely we kind of get that
rehab to keep going and goingand going.
You get more used to it andyour symptoms decrease over time
(13:44):
.
I think the biggest thing forpatients even when I had my
concussions, the hardest thingwas realizing that my symptoms
didn't necessarily equal harm ordamage.
Right, just instinctively youdo something that causes, you
know, to have a headache orsomething and you want to stay
away from it.
It's just human nature.
But in reality we kind of haveto go into it a little bit to
(14:06):
get the best results.
So we see that.
The same with the visual andvestibular system.
So if it's vertigo, if it'sthat dizziness symptom, right,
we do a combination oftreatments.
But it's going into yoursymptoms a little bit and
getting you comfortable withgetting back into the normal
daily routine of stuff.
Bella Paige (14:24):
For sure.
Vestibular is something that wehear about a lot.
It's definitely like a buzzword, I'd say, in the concussion
world in the last few years.
And you mentioned, you know,exposure therapy.
I think that's where a lot ofthe time I got better, without
noticing or without working onit, because I started to just
live my life with my symptoms.
So instead of just, you know,over pushing myself, I tried to
(14:47):
learn to find a balance.
So I did a lot of it, likemyself, where I was just like,
but why don't we just go for alittle bit?
Why don't we just do it for alittle bit, and when it becomes
too much we stop, or we stopjust before that and things like
that.
So it's really helpful.
Something was reading.
I used to do the bookmarkmethod, I call it, where you put
a bookmark where you stopreading so that you force
(15:07):
yourself to stop reading at thatmoment, because if you really
love books, you can just keepreading and reading and reading.
But instead of setting a timewhere you just kind of put a
bookmark there, when you hit ityou could stop for 15 minutes,
you can stop for the day, but itkind of just gives you a little
bit and not too much, and youkind of get to gauge yourself
that way, which is reallyhelpful.
So I think that's great.
Stibular therapy is somethingthat people they hear it they
(15:29):
say they're going to do it, butthis is where, like you said,
there's five main categorieswhere I think it's really
important to bring that alltogether and realizing that it's
not just vestibular.
Sometimes, if you believe youknow I'm doing vestibular
therapy and I'm not gettingbetter, that's because there's
so much more to this than justone thing at a time.
So it's really important thatwhole body approach it's very,
(15:50):
very important in concussionrecovery.
Dr. Matheau Denner (15:52):
Yeah, I think off of that point, booth
did a study that showed that thepatients that did vestibular
rehab Only 25 to 50% got better.
So it really takes acombination of treatments to get
the best results.
So I've had patients right theysay I did vestibular, I'm done
with that.
Right, it's definitely not thatcausing my symptoms, but in
(16:13):
reality maybe you just need alittle bit of vestibular in this
aspect and we're treatingdifferent things.
So it's really the combinationof all five right that gets the
best results.
I'm not saying that there'spatients out there that just do
vestibular and they get better.
There's absolutely that caseout there, but a lot of times,
more often than not, it's notgonna take a combination of
(16:33):
doing a lot of stuff.
Bella Paige (16:35):
Absolutely, and from that we are gonna take a
quick break until we get on toour next two of the five main
categories We've been talkingabout.
It's the holiday season Need aperfect gift for a survivor or a
suggestion to give a familymember?
I highly recommend the PostConcussion Cookbook and our
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Go to post concussioninc.
com to purchase, or make sureyou send off that link to
(16:59):
someone today.
Welcome back to the postconcussion podcast with Bella
Paige, and today's guest,Matheau Denner.
So we've been talking about thefive main categories so far.
We've gone over blood flowdysregulation, metabolic
inflammatory and hormones, andalso vestibular system, of
course, as I'm sure everyone'sheard that word a few times.
(17:21):
So do you want to talk to usabout the fourth category?
Dr. Matheau Denner (17:25):
Yeah.
So the fourth one that reallyfits well in my profession as a
chiropractor is the cervicalspine.
Dr Marshall did a researchstudy on whiplash symptoms and
concussion symptoms and theyfound that they correlate really
well together.
So they couldn't decipher ifthat patient had a concussion or
(17:47):
whiplash just based off theirsymptoms.
So we know that a concussionoccurs around 70 to 120 g forces
and whiplash actually occurs at4.5 g forces.
So if you've had enough forceto have a concussion there's
gonna be some cervical spineinvolvement.
Is that cervical spineinvolvement causing your PCS or
(18:08):
causing your symptoms?
We don't know until we kind ofevaluate and go through
treatment.
But a strong correlation betweencervical spine complaints and a
lot of the symptoms thatpresent with PCS.
So just to kind of give aframework of how it works with
the cervical spine, right, ifcertain muscles in our neck are
tight and they're constantlytelling our brain that we're in
(18:32):
a position that we're not right,our eyes and our vestibular
system are on a kind of interactwith that.
So say our SCM, the muscleright here is cranked on and
really tight right.
It's on a tell my brain thatI'm tilting my head this way and
that's where patients get a lotof dizziness or they just feel
off or weird until you addressthat Muscular kind of imbalance.
(18:54):
So there's a lot we can do onthe manual therapy side of
things.
Right, to actually loosen thismuscle up, but then also giving
you the rehab tools to helpstrengthen and coordinate the
muscles around your neck to keepaway that tension and tone from
coming back.
So I think in the cervical spine, joint manipulation or the
chiropractic adjustment done inthe right way can be an
(19:17):
effective tool.
Of course you would have to getan evaluation and really not for
everybody I'm not saying thatas a blanket statement but for
the right case, jointmanipulation, manual therapy,
can be really effective atlowering overall symptoms and
not what the typical kind ofmindset is.
So it's just not for headaches,right, we see it in brain fog,
(19:38):
we see it in fatigue, right, ifwe're constantly living in this
state can kind of affectdifferent systems.
So I think a cervical spine isa huge component, along with
visual vestibular.
That's why we like to treat allof them together, because if we
just do vestibular rehab orjust do visual right into the
neck, right it could be throwingthe eyes off and vice versa,
(19:59):
right, I've, movements havestrong correlation with neck
tightness.
So it takes a combination ofspecifically those three to
really get the impactful resultsthat we want.
So I think like a great optionwould be going to a rehab
professional that's well-trainedin this kind of concussion
space, because they can actuallydo the treatment right In
(20:20):
office, diagnose and get youback to where you need to be.
Bella Paige (20:23):
I think that's really great, because neck
issues is something a lot ofpeople mentioned.
When we go back to, like theblood flow dysregulation on the
movement, so many people arelike, oh, but my neck hurts too
much to that or I can't do thatbecause my neck it's very common
.
I hear all the time my neck, myneck, my neck or I have all
this pain at the base of my head, all those types of things.
(20:45):
So definitely an importantthing to get looked at.
Talk to a professional, alwaysalways recommending that because
you can hear all this stuff,but sometimes it's really
important and it is alwaysreally important to get
addressed by somebody who knowswhat they're talking about.
And sometimes that's not alwayseasiest to find, but there is
people out there that understandthese things and can help you.
(21:06):
And so let's talk about thefifth.
What is the last of the fivemain categories?
Dr. Matheau Denner (21:11):
Yeah, so arguably the biggest component
is the psychological piece of it.
So improper or poor educationon the healthcare practitioners
part is a huge cause of PCS andsymptoms and kind of the
mismanagement of care a littlebit.
So if you're being told to sitin a dark room right, wear
(21:32):
sunglasses, don't work out,don't move your body, get off
your phone for extended amountof time can lead to this idea
that, right, I'm damaged, I needto protect it, right, I can't
do the things I want, which inthe end really leads to more
symptoms and longer recoverytime.
So I think, just like educatingpatients that there's a lot we
(21:55):
can do in the initial stagewe're not talking about
traumatic brain injury, we'retalking about mild traumatic
brain injury or the concussion.
I mean, there is so much youcan do in the initial stages you
shouldn't feel like you don'thave the resources or you're
damaged or anything like that,cause there's a lot of
information out there that wecan kind of get you in touch
(22:16):
with, to kind of get you in theright places with the right
healthcare providers.
So I think the psychologicalcomponent is massive.
There's also different theoriesabout right, the nocebo effect.
We all heard of placebo.
You know taking a placebo drugright can have a profound
positive impact.
(22:36):
But what's not talked about sowell is the nocebo.
So if we attribute everythingin our life to the concussion,
we can kind of paint thispicture of exacerbating symptoms
and not really having therecovery we want.
And it's not really yourconcussion right, it's kind of
the position that you got put inor that you're currently in.
(22:58):
So just say, we had headacheone day, right, maybe you would
have had that headacheoriginally, right.
If it's just a healthy kind ofday you have a headache, it
might be part of the picture.
So just not attributingeverything to concussion and
knowing that a symptomprovocation doesn't necessarily
equal damage.
So I think once patientsunderstand that I was the same
(23:21):
way, once I kind of got thatreassurance that I'm not gonna
hurt myself even more by movingmy body or doing things, it gave
me like a huge kind ofmotivation to keep going, get
out there and really kickstartedrecovery in that way.
Bella Paige (23:36):
I think that's huge .
The mental health aspect ofthis is ginormous.
We talk about it a lot.
It's actually kind of why Istarted.
All this is because I was inthat category 10 years ago where
you got told just to stay in adark room.
The sad thing is is people arestill getting doled that.
That kind of irks me a lot.
But I was the result of that.
(23:56):
I was the result of staying ina dark room doing nothing and
then trying to get out of thattook me so much longer than it
should have, because it affectedme.
All of a sudden, everything wasway too bright, everything was
way too loud.
All of a sudden, my headacheswere like well, they were
already really bad.
I had a lot of.
There's a lot to it than justthat.
But it definitely does showthat like we don't want to do
(24:18):
that anymore.
And I don't say you know what,if you're having the worst
headache of your life and youcan't get out of bed, you're
allowed to rest.
I'm not saying you're notallowed to rest, but just don't
stay there, don't get stuckthere for days on end.
And, like you said, thatheadache.
We talk a lot about how we havea headache Monday and then we
make that headache last tillFriday.
And I'm not saying it wouldn'thave lasted, I'm just saying we
(24:40):
can make it worse by workingourselves up, by knowing that
it's going to be here all week,by stressing ourselves out.
It's not that it doesn't exist,it's that we can definitely
make things worse with ourthoughts, and so it's a lot
about questioning those thoughtsusing our own power of thought.
This is where talk therapy canbe huge, of being like am I
really feeling this bad?
We talk a lot I just gave atalk on this down in Toronto,
(25:03):
canada, the other day aboutputting our symptoms in the
background instead of alwayshaving them in the front.
Sometimes we, everything we do,we're like oh, what about my
eyes?
Or what about my head, or whatabout this?
How about we put them back?
How about we put them behindyou and then carry on and you
know what?
They might still be there, butif they're in the front of your
mind, it's all you're going tothink about.
You're not going to get throughit.
(25:24):
All you're going to exist iswith this.
So we really want to focus onliving our life while we're
still going to therapy andtreatment and all those types of
things to the best of ourability and that might look very
different every day, as I haveseen concussion survivors, from
you know, can barely walk andcan barely get out of bed to
still working full time andstill doing everything they plan
(25:46):
to.
So there's lots of spectrum,lots of variations, especially
to these five categories.
You don't always know whatyou're going to need, but it's
definitely somewhere to start.
It's definitely something tolook into is have I even
addressed all of these?
Have I addressed the fivecategories that we just talked
about, or have I addressed oneof them?
Well, maybe it's somewhere tolook into, and so I think that's
really important.
Dr. Matheau Denner (26:07):
Yeah, absolutely.
Bella Paige (26:08):
So we've talked about a lot just going over this
five main categories.
It's a lot to take in and it'sa lot to consider and get into.
Is there anything else youwould like to add before we end
today's episode?
Dr. Matheau Denner (26:19):
Yeah, I think if you're out there and
you're looking for a healthcareprovider, you can go on complete
concussion management and theyhave a find a clinic so you can.
It's a free resource.
There's a world map ofclinicians around your area so
if you're in the CharlotteSoutheast area my clinic will
pop up so you can find, you know, the healthcare provider to
(26:42):
hopefully get you the resourcesthat you need if you're
struggling out there.
So I would look for a rehabprofessional, so either PT or
chiropractor on that map becausethey can give you the really
the resources to fix those fivekind of dysfunctions that we
talked about.
So even if you've had symptoms,you know, for a year lasting
(27:03):
longer, there's still a lot ofstuff you can do.
Bella Paige (27:07):
Yeah, for sure.
I think it's great.
It's really important, likewe're here as, like your, your
addition, I always like to saywhere everything, where
everything that clinics don't do, which is, like you know,
community, knowing that there'speople there for you, having
people that ask questions aboutgeneral things that are going on
, but it is really important tostill see professionals and,
like you said, even thoughyou're a euro, there's still
(27:29):
things you can do.
And my favorite thing about theconcussion world is that the
research is just growing andgrowing.
Every year, more things arecoming out, more people are
getting into the research, morefunding is going into it.
So don't be afraid, becausemaybe what you haven't tried yet
just came out yesterday.
So don't forget to you know,keep looking, keep trying, and
(27:50):
thank you so much for joining ustoday and sharing some of your
experience with helpingconcussion survivors.
Dr. Matheau Denner (27:56):
Yeah, thanks for having me.
Bella Paige (27:57):
Need more than just this podcast.
Be sure to check out ourwebsite postconcussioninc.
com, to see how we can help youin your post concussion life,
from a support network toone-on-one coaching.
I believe life can get betterbecause I've lived through it.
Make sure you take it one dayat a time.
Hi everyone.
I'm your host, Bella Paige, andafter suffering from post
concussion syndrome for years,it was time to do something
about it.
So welcome to the PostConcussion Podcast, where we dig
deep into life when it doesn'tgo back to normal.
Be sure to share the podcastand join our support network,
Concussion Connect.
Let's make this invisibleinjury become visible.
(00:27):
The Post Concussion Podcast isstrictly an information podcast
about concussions and postconcussion syndrome.
It does not provide norsubstitute for professional
medical advice, diagnosis ortreatment.
Always seek the advice of yourphysician or another qualified
health provider with anyquestions you may have regarding
a medical condition.
(00:47):
Never disregard professionalmedical advice or delay in
seeking it because of somethingyou have heard on this podcast.
The opinions expressed in thispodcast are simply intended to
spark discussion aboutconcussions and post concussion
syndrome.
Welcome to episode number 125of the Post Concussion Podcast
(01:09):
with myself, Bella Paige and DrMatheau Dr Denner is a
chiropractic physician andlicensed athletic trainer in
Charlotte, North Carolina,specializing in sports medicine
and rehabilitation.
Dr Denner uses his uniquebackground in manual therapy,
functional rehabilitation andjoint manipulation to treat
(01:30):
acute concussions, pcs and othermusculoskeletal conditions.
Welcome to the show, Matheau.
Dr. Matheau Denner (01:37):
Yeah, thank you for having me.
Bella Paige (01:39):
So, to start, do you want to talk us over a
little bit about what createdyour interest in concussions?
Dr. Matheau Denner (01:45):
Yeah.
So it's kind of a personalexperience how I got into
treating concussions and kind ofthe interest of taking care of
patients and PCS and that wholeworld.
So growing up I played soccerand had six diagnosed
concussions growing up, five ofwhich came from soccer, one ice
(02:06):
skating when I was younger, butthe last one put me in the
hospital for a little bit acouple of days at a subdural
hematoma.
So it was a little bit morethan a concussion.
But going through thoseexperiences and kind of going
through the process of seeingdifferent medical professionals
rehabbing it, dealing with thesymptoms that came along, I was
(02:27):
in that world.
And that was before I went toundergrad to be an athletic
trainer and before I went tochiropractic school.
It was all through kind of myhigh school playing career.
So once I got to undergrad I hada little interesting the
concussion space, saw it a tonas an athletic trainer.
But the treatment and the kindof idea around concussions,
(02:50):
specifically PCS too, wasn'teverything right I hoped for.
I hoped to learn differenttechniques, different ways of
thinking about it, but it wasreally traditional outlook.
It wasn't until I got tochiropractic school and I had
the privilege of hearing DrCameron Marshall talk about the
(03:10):
concussion space and PCS andjust like looking at the current
literature and everything hewas talking about really sparked
my interest because it turnedinto a personal kind of goal at
that point.
There is a lot we could do,especially in the chiropractic
world and the rehab world, so itreally got me excited for
continuing my education and kindof going down the route of
(03:30):
maybe helping people out thatyou know we're in a similar
situation as I was.
Bella Paige (03:35):
I really like how you said that you're trying to
help people, but also thedifferent aspects, like there is
different things you can do.
A lot of people reach out likewhat can I even do?
They don't even know where tostart, because you go into your
GP and they don't really knowmuch.
Maybe they'll send you to aneurologist and then that's kind
of where it ends for so manypeople, unless they can find the
(03:55):
right people to talk to or thateven have the knowledge,
because it's definitelysomething where, like in school,
it's talked about, but untilyou actually seek out your own
education on it, it's reallyhard to understand what you can
do for concussions.
So do you want to kind of walkus through?
You said there's lots ofoptions.
So when we talked before, youtalked about five main kind of
(04:18):
areas of where people can getsome help.
So do you want to start thereand then we'll just keep going
and see what happens?
Dr. Matheau Denner (04:26):
Yeah, absolutely so.
In the world of concussion thebig focus on manual therapy,
rehab and kind of what I do inthe treatment room is
specifically tailored to PCS.
So acute concussions we love tosee them.
We can do a lot in the initialstages to kind of get people set
up with a game plan so the riskof developing PCS is much lower
(04:50):
.
But kind of the bread andbutter of everything that we do
in the treatment room and thechiropractic and rehab world is
treating those patients thathave symptoms lasting longer
than the typical amount of time.
So I feel like that's whereeveryone kind of goes wrong with
their treatment plan, becauseit's all great until you're
(05:10):
stuck with symptoms and you'rebattling this for an extended
amount of time.
That's where it gets a littlebit tricky.
But there's a lot of things wecan do in both hands-on manual
therapy, rehab, nutritionalinterventions to really give you
the tools that you need to getsymptom relief and get you back
to where you were before theconcussion I'd love to talk
(05:31):
about.
There's really five maindysfunctions or aspects that we
treat for those PCS patients sowe can dive into each one of
those and talk a little bitabout them.
Bella Paige (05:42):
Yeah, I think that's great.
I think it's really importantto realize that there is things
you can do and different thingsyou can do in different aspects.
A lot of times we just feel solost and, like you said, it's
like you don't see acutepatients very often.
I'd say it's a lot less oftenbecause it's not the
recommendation.
We're working on that actuallyright now Just started working
(06:03):
on that, on getting ERs up tospeed on what they should be
giving patients, because they'rejust getting told to go home
and rest.
You know and I know that thatis not the answer, but if you
don't get told that's not theanswer, usually it's not for
months later where you're likeI'm still suffering, why am I
suffering?
Then people start to reach outfor help.
(06:24):
Let's start with one of thefive main categories.
What would be the first?
Dr. Matheau Denner (06:28):
one, the biggest one.
The first one that everyone cando and is kind of the big
jumping off point is it's calledblood flow dysregulation.
This incorporates exercise intothe treatment, but after a
concussion there's actually areduction in cerebral blood flow
.
There's different mechanisms inyour body that tell us how much
blood we should be getting andregulating depending on what
(06:50):
we're doing Say, we'reincreasing our heart rate, we're
getting up from sitting down.
There's different mechanisms inour body that help shunt blood
to the brain and elsewhere.
So this is a really common kindof dysfunction that happens
after a concussion injury.
Is that reduction in blood flow?
So this could equal headaches,dizziness, right, trouble,
(07:12):
focusing difficulty, you know,symptom provocation when we're
walking, jogging, trying to doany physical activity.
So there's a great study in2015 by Meyer and all that
showed that patients that hadPCS symptoms one month from
their concussion correlatedreally well with blood flow
dysregulation.
So they looked at a ton ofpatients, right, those who had a
(07:35):
full recovery, they didn't havesymptoms lasting longer than
seven to 14 days.
They didn't have thisdysregulation.
But those who were at a monthand still had some symptoms,
there was a correlation betweenthat blood flow dysregulation.
So we're not saying that everyconcussion patient has this
dysregulation because a lot ofthem it'll rehab over time and
(07:56):
they'll kind of get better withit.
But a certain population isgoing to have this.
So a big part of the treatmentis actually exercise.
So Letty and all so Letty DrLetty from University of Buffalo
and a couple of other of hiscolleagues developed the Buffalo
treadmill test.
So it's a test to determineyour sub symptom threshold heart
(08:18):
rate.
So it's the point where we'reworking out and we get a symptom
increase right.
We do a little bit of math andthat's your point where you're
working out and it's a greatrehab moving forward for
patients and you can get a lotof symptom relief by just moving
your body, getting active.
So the whole idea of rest iskind of out in the concussion
(08:38):
world.
Bella Paige (08:39):
Yeah, I really like the way you explain that,
because you kind of didn't justtalk about what it is, because
people sometimes are like, okay,blood flow dysregulation, how
do I know if I have that?
That is a huge thing.
And movement is huge.
We talk about that a lot.
On concussion connect, we havelike a yoga introductory
movement class just to getpeople comfortable with moving
(09:00):
again If they have kind ofcompletely halted all these
things.
And people always have a reallyhard time finding exercises
they feel like they can do.
That we always talk about likenobody said you had to go do it
for an hour, start slow.
You know you got to startsomewhere and then build up from
there, which is where thatbuffalo treadmill test does come
in.
So that's really great and Ithink it's really important.
Like you said, just because youdon't fit into this category
(09:22):
doesn't mean you won't fit intothe others and you might fit
into a few of them.
So you know, anybody who'slistening don't feel like
disheartened and be like, oh, Idon't deal with that.
Or I tried to exercise and ithasn't helped me because there's
a lot more to it than just that.
So what would be a secondcategory that can be addressed?
Dr. Matheau Denner (09:39):
Yeah.
So number two would bemetabolic, inflammatory and
hormonal.
So after any injury, right, weget an increase in inflammation.
It's kind of a normal processthat our bodies go through and
it's a healthy kind of normalthing that happens, right, we
want good inflammation, we wantthat healing to kind of start.
Where we want to stay away, orwhat we want to stay away from,
(10:00):
is that chronic inflammation.
So chronic systemicinflammation in our body has a
strong indication of causingsymptoms to linger around,
specifically headache feelingoff.
So we can do a great job withdiet and anti-inflammatory
supplements with your healthcareprovider to kind of kickstart
that process.
So I don't know, you'refamiliar with your listeners,
(10:21):
with the gut brain access.
I'm sure you talked about it.
Bella Paige (10:24):
We have talked about it a little bit before,
for sure.
Dr. Matheau Denner (10:27):
Yeah, so there's a strong correlation
between head injuries and thelining in our gut and how our
gut communicates with our brain.
So after an injury we get alittle bit of inflammation in
our gut and the gap junctions inour stomach, right the cells
that keep it together, they geta little bit spread out from
that inflammation.
So the particles that we eatright we break down the food
(10:48):
tiny particles get into ourbloodstream and our body.
You know it doesn't like that.
We go why, why are these thingshere?
Let's create a little bit ofinflammation, almost like an
autoimmune response to kind offix that process.
So if you're living in thatconstant state of inflammation,
really good way to kind of knockit out is kind of changing your
diet a little bit.
(11:09):
So avoiding kind of the refinedsugars, the pasta, the gluten,
dairy, it all has a goodindication of lower inflammation
and kind of helps symptoms inthat way.
Bella Paige (11:18):
I love that because we have our cookbook, which is
actually behind me that has aton of gluten-free, dairy-free,
low-inflammation meals inside ofit.
Because so many people benefitwhen they change and do it
slowly.
I always like to say don't cuteverything out at once because
sometimes then you're havinglike a different kind of
overreaction.
Like cutting out gluten all atonce will give you headaches.
(11:39):
People that do keto when theydo that and they switch, they go
completely gluten-free in a day.
Usually you get like a glutenheadache for a few days because
your body's not used to notgetting it.
So you know, slowly doesn'tmean you never have to eat it.
Just you know, instead ofeating maybe pasta, like you
said, try gluten-free pasta, tryrice You're changing it up a
little bit to try to get less ofthat inflammation.
(12:00):
The initial phase is reallyhard.
So slow, interactive, slow,taking things out, slow, adding
other things in can be reallyhelpful.
So that's really great.
And we're going to talk aboutone more category and after that
we'll take a quick break andget back to the last two.
So what would be the thirdcategory?
Dr. Matheau Denner (12:18):
Yeah.
So another thing we kind oflook at in the office is the
visual and vestibular system, sohow your eyes and how your ears
communicate with your brain andtell you where you are in space
.
So Christina Master did a studyin 2019 that showed that up to
70% of concussion patients havesome type of visual disturbance.
(12:39):
A lot of times you know it'sthe cervical spine.
It's different things In yourcase that's causing a little bit
of the tracking issue with youreyes.
In office we do somethingcalled a VOMS assessment
vestibular ocular motor screento determine what actual
mechanism in your eyes may bethrowing you off a little bit.
So really easy to kind of sortout in the initial stages of
(13:03):
giving you great rehab, to kindof go home.
A lot of times I've had patients, right, we have headaches from
reading, trouble, you know, justfeeling weird or off on outside
driving.
We're just dealing with some ofthese dysfunctions that happen.
So really the best rehab isgoing into your symptoms a
little bit.
(13:23):
So, like you said, startingslow and we gradually build it
up.
So let's just say reading gaveyou a headache, right, maybe we
work on saccades, right, we workon that motion of moving your
eyes across a page and slowlybut surely we kind of get that
rehab to keep going and goingand going.
You get more used to it andyour symptoms decrease over time
(13:44):
.
I think the biggest thing forpatients even when I had my
concussions, the hardest thingwas realizing that my symptoms
didn't necessarily equal harm ordamage.
Right, just instinctively youdo something that causes, you
know, to have a headache orsomething and you want to stay
away from it.
It's just human nature.
But in reality we kind of haveto go into it a little bit to
(14:06):
get the best results.
So we see that.
The same with the visual andvestibular system.
So if it's vertigo, if it'sthat dizziness symptom, right,
we do a combination oftreatments.
But it's going into yoursymptoms a little bit and
getting you comfortable withgetting back into the normal
daily routine of stuff.
Bella Paige (14:24):
For sure.
Vestibular is something that wehear about a lot.
It's definitely like a buzzword, I'd say, in the concussion
world in the last few years.
And you mentioned, you know,exposure therapy.
I think that's where a lot ofthe time I got better, without
noticing or without working onit, because I started to just
live my life with my symptoms.
So instead of just, you know,over pushing myself, I tried to
(14:47):
learn to find a balance.
So I did a lot of it, likemyself, where I was just like,
but why don't we just go for alittle bit?
Why don't we just do it for alittle bit, and when it becomes
too much we stop, or we stopjust before that and things like
that.
So it's really helpful.
Something was reading.
I used to do the bookmarkmethod, I call it, where you put
a bookmark where you stopreading so that you force
(15:07):
yourself to stop reading at thatmoment, because if you really
love books, you can just keepreading and reading and reading.
But instead of setting a timewhere you just kind of put a
bookmark there, when you hit ityou could stop for 15 minutes,
you can stop for the day, but itkind of just gives you a little
bit and not too much, and youkind of get to gauge yourself
that way, which is reallyhelpful.
So I think that's great.
Stibular therapy is somethingthat people they hear it they
(15:29):
say they're going to do it, butthis is where, like you said,
there's five main categorieswhere I think it's really
important to bring that alltogether and realizing that it's
not just vestibular.
Sometimes, if you believe youknow I'm doing vestibular
therapy and I'm not gettingbetter, that's because there's
so much more to this than justone thing at a time.
So it's really important thatwhole body approach it's very,
(15:50):
very important in concussionrecovery.
Dr. Matheau Denner (15:52):
Yeah, I think off of that point, booth
did a study that showed that thepatients that did vestibular
rehab Only 25 to 50% got better.
So it really takes acombination of treatments to get
the best results.
So I've had patients right theysay I did vestibular, I'm done
with that.
Right, it's definitely not thatcausing my symptoms, but in
(16:13):
reality maybe you just need alittle bit of vestibular in this
aspect and we're treatingdifferent things.
So it's really the combinationof all five right that gets the
best results.
I'm not saying that there'spatients out there that just do
vestibular and they get better.
There's absolutely that caseout there, but a lot of times,
more often than not, it's notgonna take a combination of
(16:33):
doing a lot of stuff.
Bella Paige (16:35):
Absolutely, and from that we are gonna take a
quick break until we get on toour next two of the five main
categories We've been talkingabout.
It's the holiday season Need aperfect gift for a survivor or a
suggestion to give a familymember?
I highly recommend the PostConcussion Cookbook and our
comfy podcast footers.
Go to post concussioninc.
com to purchase, or make sureyou send off that link to
(16:59):
someone today.
Welcome back to the postconcussion podcast with Bella
Paige, and today's guest,Matheau Denner.
So we've been talking about thefive main categories so far.
We've gone over blood flowdysregulation, metabolic
inflammatory and hormones, andalso vestibular system, of
course, as I'm sure everyone'sheard that word a few times.
(17:21):
So do you want to talk to usabout the fourth category?
Dr. Matheau Denner (17:25):
Yeah.
So the fourth one that reallyfits well in my profession as a
chiropractor is the cervicalspine.
Dr Marshall did a researchstudy on whiplash symptoms and
concussion symptoms and theyfound that they correlate really
well together.
So they couldn't decipher ifthat patient had a concussion or
(17:47):
whiplash just based off theirsymptoms.
So we know that a concussionoccurs around 70 to 120 g forces
and whiplash actually occurs at4.5 g forces.
So if you've had enough forceto have a concussion there's
gonna be some cervical spineinvolvement.
Is that cervical spineinvolvement causing your PCS or
(18:08):
causing your symptoms?
We don't know until we kind ofevaluate and go through
treatment.
But a strong correlation betweencervical spine complaints and a
lot of the symptoms thatpresent with PCS.
So just to kind of give aframework of how it works with
the cervical spine, right, ifcertain muscles in our neck are
tight and they're constantlytelling our brain that we're in
(18:32):
a position that we're not right,our eyes and our vestibular
system are on a kind of interactwith that.
So say our SCM, the muscleright here is cranked on and
really tight right.
It's on a tell my brain thatI'm tilting my head this way and
that's where patients get a lotof dizziness or they just feel
off or weird until you addressthat Muscular kind of imbalance.
(18:54):
So there's a lot we can do onthe manual therapy side of
things.
Right, to actually loosen thismuscle up, but then also giving
you the rehab tools to helpstrengthen and coordinate the
muscles around your neck to keepaway that tension and tone from
coming back.
So I think in the cervical spine, joint manipulation or the
chiropractic adjustment done inthe right way can be an
(19:17):
effective tool.
Of course you would have to getan evaluation and really not for
everybody I'm not saying thatas a blanket statement but for
the right case, jointmanipulation, manual therapy,
can be really effective atlowering overall symptoms and
not what the typical kind ofmindset is.
So it's just not for headaches,right, we see it in brain fog,
(19:38):
we see it in fatigue, right, ifwe're constantly living in this
state can kind of affectdifferent systems.
So I think a cervical spine isa huge component, along with
visual vestibular.
That's why we like to treat allof them together, because if we
just do vestibular rehab orjust do visual right into the
neck, right it could be throwingthe eyes off and vice versa,
(19:59):
right, I've, movements havestrong correlation with neck
tightness.
So it takes a combination ofspecifically those three to
really get the impactful resultsthat we want.
So I think like a great optionwould be going to a rehab
professional that's well-trainedin this kind of concussion
space, because they can actuallydo the treatment right In
(20:20):
office, diagnose and get youback to where you need to be.
Bella Paige (20:23):
I think that's really great, because neck
issues is something a lot ofpeople mentioned.
When we go back to, like theblood flow dysregulation on the
movement, so many people arelike, oh, but my neck hurts too
much to that or I can't do thatbecause my neck it's very common
.
I hear all the time my neck, myneck, my neck or I have all
this pain at the base of my head, all those types of things.
(20:45):
So definitely an importantthing to get looked at.
Talk to a professional, alwaysalways recommending that because
you can hear all this stuff,but sometimes it's really
important and it is alwaysreally important to get
addressed by somebody who knowswhat they're talking about.
And sometimes that's not alwayseasiest to find, but there is
people out there that understandthese things and can help you.
(21:06):
And so let's talk about thefifth.
What is the last of the fivemain categories?
Dr. Matheau Denner (21:11):
Yeah, so arguably the biggest component
is the psychological piece of it.
So improper or poor educationon the healthcare practitioners
part is a huge cause of PCS andsymptoms and kind of the
mismanagement of care a littlebit.
So if you're being told to sitin a dark room right, wear
(21:32):
sunglasses, don't work out,don't move your body, get off
your phone for extended amountof time can lead to this idea
that, right, I'm damaged, I needto protect it, right, I can't
do the things I want, which inthe end really leads to more
symptoms and longer recoverytime.
So I think, just like educatingpatients that there's a lot we
(21:55):
can do in the initial stagewe're not talking about
traumatic brain injury, we'retalking about mild traumatic
brain injury or the concussion.
I mean, there is so much youcan do in the initial stages you
shouldn't feel like you don'thave the resources or you're
damaged or anything like that,cause there's a lot of
information out there that wecan kind of get you in touch
(22:16):
with, to kind of get you in theright places with the right
healthcare providers.
So I think the psychologicalcomponent is massive.
There's also different theoriesabout right, the nocebo effect.
We all heard of placebo.
You know taking a placebo drugright can have a profound
positive impact.
(22:36):
But what's not talked about sowell is the nocebo.
So if we attribute everythingin our life to the concussion,
we can kind of paint thispicture of exacerbating symptoms
and not really having therecovery we want.
And it's not really yourconcussion right, it's kind of
the position that you got put inor that you're currently in.
(22:58):
So just say, we had headacheone day, right, maybe you would
have had that headacheoriginally, right.
If it's just a healthy kind ofday you have a headache, it
might be part of the picture.
So just not attributingeverything to concussion and
knowing that a symptomprovocation doesn't necessarily
equal damage.
So I think once patientsunderstand that I was the same
(23:21):
way, once I kind of got thatreassurance that I'm not gonna
hurt myself even more by movingmy body or doing things, it gave
me like a huge kind ofmotivation to keep going, get
out there and really kickstartedrecovery in that way.
Bella Paige (23:36):
I think that's huge .
The mental health aspect ofthis is ginormous.
We talk about it a lot.
It's actually kind of why Istarted.
All this is because I was inthat category 10 years ago where
you got told just to stay in adark room.
The sad thing is is people arestill getting doled that.
That kind of irks me a lot.
But I was the result of that.
(23:56):
I was the result of staying ina dark room doing nothing and
then trying to get out of thattook me so much longer than it
should have, because it affectedme.
All of a sudden, everything wasway too bright, everything was
way too loud.
All of a sudden, my headacheswere like well, they were
already really bad.
I had a lot of.
There's a lot to it than justthat.
But it definitely does showthat like we don't want to do
(24:18):
that anymore.
And I don't say you know what,if you're having the worst
headache of your life and youcan't get out of bed, you're
allowed to rest.
I'm not saying you're notallowed to rest, but just don't
stay there, don't get stuckthere for days on end.
And, like you said, thatheadache.
We talk a lot about how we havea headache Monday and then we
make that headache last tillFriday.
And I'm not saying it wouldn'thave lasted, I'm just saying we
(24:40):
can make it worse by workingourselves up, by knowing that
it's going to be here all week,by stressing ourselves out.
It's not that it doesn't exist,it's that we can definitely
make things worse with ourthoughts, and so it's a lot
about questioning those thoughtsusing our own power of thought.
This is where talk therapy canbe huge, of being like am I
really feeling this bad?
We talk a lot I just gave atalk on this down in Toronto,
(25:03):
canada, the other day aboutputting our symptoms in the
background instead of alwayshaving them in the front.
Sometimes we, everything we do,we're like oh, what about my
eyes?
Or what about my head, or whatabout this?
How about we put them back?
How about we put them behindyou and then carry on and you
know what?
They might still be there, butif they're in the front of your
mind, it's all you're going tothink about.
You're not going to get throughit.
(25:24):
All you're going to exist iswith this.
So we really want to focus onliving our life while we're
still going to therapy andtreatment and all those types of
things to the best of ourability and that might look very
different every day, as I haveseen concussion survivors, from
you know, can barely walk andcan barely get out of bed to
still working full time andstill doing everything they plan
(25:46):
to.
So there's lots of spectrum,lots of variations, especially
to these five categories.
You don't always know whatyou're going to need, but it's
definitely somewhere to start.
It's definitely something tolook into is have I even
addressed all of these?
Have I addressed the fivecategories that we just talked
about, or have I addressed oneof them?
Well, maybe it's somewhere tolook into, and so I think that's
really important.
Dr. Matheau Denner (26:07):
Yeah, absolutely.
Bella Paige (26:08):
So we've talked about a lot just going over this
five main categories.
It's a lot to take in and it'sa lot to consider and get into.
Is there anything else youwould like to add before we end
today's episode?
Dr. Matheau Denner (26:19):
Yeah, I think if you're out there and
you're looking for a healthcareprovider, you can go on complete
concussion management and theyhave a find a clinic so you can.
It's a free resource.
There's a world map ofclinicians around your area so
if you're in the CharlotteSoutheast area my clinic will
pop up so you can find, you know, the healthcare provider to
(26:42):
hopefully get you the resourcesthat you need if you're
struggling out there.
So I would look for a rehabprofessional, so either PT or
chiropractor on that map becausethey can give you the really
the resources to fix those fivekind of dysfunctions that we
talked about.
So even if you've had symptoms,you know, for a year lasting
(27:03):
longer, there's still a lot ofstuff you can do.
Bella Paige (27:07):
Yeah, for sure.
I think it's great.
It's really important, likewe're here as, like your, your
addition, I always like to saywhere everything, where
everything that clinics don't do, which is, like you know,
community, knowing that there'speople there for you, having
people that ask questions aboutgeneral things that are going on
, but it is really important tostill see professionals and,
like you said, even thoughyou're a euro, there's still
(27:29):
things you can do.
And my favorite thing about theconcussion world is that the
research is just growing andgrowing.
Every year, more things arecoming out, more people are
getting into the research, morefunding is going into it.
So don't be afraid, becausemaybe what you haven't tried yet
just came out yesterday.
So don't forget to you know,keep looking, keep trying, and
(27:50):
thank you so much for joining ustoday and sharing some of your
experience with helpingconcussion survivors.
Dr. Matheau Denner (27:56):
Yeah, thanks for having me.
Bella Paige (27:57):
Need more than just this podcast.
Be sure to check out ourwebsite postconcussioninc.
com, to see how we can help youin your post concussion life,
from a support network toone-on-one coaching.
I believe life can get betterbecause I've lived through it.
Make sure you take it one dayat a time.
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