September 16, 2024 • 22 mins
Hosts Meghan (Smallwood) and Patrick (Cadigan) invite Zabrina Kearns to have a discussion with them about what transition looks like for families in her New Jersey district. Zabrina shares out from her extensive background in special education, applied behavior analysis and her current roles as Work-Based Learning supervisor, & transition coordinator. The trio discuss the differences in transition programs and outcomes between states, the importance of independent living skills, and the challenges parents face in navigating post-high school options for their children with disabilities. Join the conversation!
Episode Keywords:
transition, diploma, program, students, work, New Jersey, districts, community, special education, participants, IEP
Links:
Pascack Valley Regional High School District Transition Resources (site)
To download a copy of a transcript for this episode or any of our previous conversations, click here.
Also visit our Podcast webpage to find links to all of our other discussions; go to www.p2transition.com.
Additional information about post-secondary transition can be found at our website.
The Post-Secondary Transition Podcast Facebook page.
Visit our YouTube Channel to find additional video resources.
Intro/Outro music by AudioCoffee from Pixabay.
Transition music by Joseph McDade from Transistor.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Meghan Smallwood (00:00):
Welcome. This is the Post Secondary Transition
podcast. We have conversationsaround the ins and outs and
everything in between of thetransition process for families
of students with disabilities.
I'm one of the hosts. My name isMeghan Smallwood, and I'm a
public school transitioncoordinator, and my co host is
and
Patrick Cadigan (00:17):
I'm Patrick Cadigan, and I am also a public
school transition coordinator.
All right, so this week, we'regoing to take a pause in the
discussion on expectations thatMeghan and I have been having,
that, you know, basically callsout each individual school year,
because we have an opportunityto speak with another transition
coordinator. However, this oneis located in the faraway land
of New Jersey. Now, backstory,Meghan and I are always touting
(00:41):
the benefits of social media,and this is an example of one of
those cases. Now we belong to aFacebook group of other
transition coordinators, and wepost it about what we were doing
and how we were looking tocollaborate. And our guest
today, Ms. Sabrina Kearnsanswered that call. So thank you
(01:01):
for that.
Zabrina Kearns (01:04):
Thank you. It's I'm so excited to be here and to
start this conversation, I tooam, can tout social media
because I am learning so muchfrom transition coordinators all
over the country because of thatgroup.
Meghan Smallwood (01:19):
Yeah, it's really cool to be able to be
able to connect, because we alsoconnected with someone on the
other side of the country andother countries. So it's really
neat.
Patrick Cadigan (01:27):
It's done pretty well. I mean, again,
we've had those conversationsbefore with families and, you
know, social media, but there,there is a lot there that is
useful and wonderful, and we, webelong to, like other Facebook
groups of families who havegotten together to share out
information. And so again, Ialways, you know, I always
(01:51):
preface the social mediaconversation around there are
good things that happen there.
Meghan Smallwood (01:57):
Well, I think it's so important too, because I
have so many families that, asthey're planning for transition,
they have these dreams of likeretiring to a different state.
And I think it's just soimportant they realize it's not
fluent fluid amongst the states,like you need to be aware of
every other state's requirementsor eligibility or whatever it
is. So I love that we get toknow what else is going on out
(02:21):
there, just for my ownknowledge, too. So I guess
starting with that, can you tellus a little bit about your
professional life, like the workyou do, how long you've been
doing it, and kind of why you dowhat you do.
Zabrina Kearns (02:33):
Absolutely. So I actually started as a teacher
aide in 1999 in a schooldesigned for kids with autism.
So my background is actuallyapplied behavior analysis
Discrete trials. That's where Istarted. That school was pre K
to 21 I was with the little guysfor a really long time, and I
(02:54):
did things kind of backwards. Iwent back to school after
falling in love with thispopulation of individuals, and
really the science of ABA isjust in my blood. So I did get
my bachelor's degree in specialeducation. I got a public
teaching position from there,same thing in an ABA classroom,
(03:16):
and I pursued my master's in EdLeadership, initially, because I
was responsible. Part of meresponsible for so many teacher
assistants, so I felt like I hadsuch an awesome background in
special education, ABA, behaviormanagement, but I didn't know
how to manage my staff. No onetaught me how to do that. So
(03:36):
getting the Masters in EdLeadership really opened my eyes
to group dynamics and how togive really like your peers,
feedback, because it wassomething I was not familiar
with. I did go back to theprivate school that I originally
started in for a while, becausethey hired me as a supervisor.
So I was there for a few years,and then my current position
(03:57):
opened, so I'm back in publicschool, and I actually have
three titles here. So my firsttitle is special education
teacher. And I do teach. Ourcohorts are interesting this
year. But back to basics, Iteach half day, that's my
ultimate ideal schedule, andthen in the afternoon, I put on
the hat of Work Based Learningsupervisor. That's what New
(04:19):
Jersey's certification is calledit's done through the bog Center
at Rutgers, and I oversee all ofmy students internships, and I'm
responsible for our 18 to 21program. And then the seniors
and juniors. Our seniors also dowork based learning, and our
juniors do something called jobsampling, so it's mostly in
(04:43):
house, and I can explain thatfurther. And then my third title
is transition coordinator. Sothat is the newest title for me.
I am. If you give me a job titleand I don't understand part of
it, I go right into the deepend. So I enrolled in. Courses
at the University of Kansas, soI'm getting a second master's
(05:04):
now in Special Education with aconcentration in transition.
Meghan Smallwood (05:09):
So, I guess because in our county, the way
and the way it's set up is thatevery school, we have 13 high
schools, every school has atransition coordinator assigned.
So how is it, and I know in NewJersey districts, right?
Zabrina Kearns (05:24):
We do have different districts. I happen to
be in a Regional High SchoolDistrict..
Meghan Smallwood (05:27):
Okay.
Zabrina Kearns (05:28):
...which is unique. So it's two high
schools, four towns.
Okay, so are you solely atransition coordinator for your
school?
Yes, but the way it works, likeour case managers also assist
with Transition Coordination...
Meghan Smallwood (05:43):
Okay.
Zabrina Kearns (05:44):
...if it was a student, let's say in one of the
high schools who had a 504 or anIEP, and they are not on track
to come to our 18 to 21 program,their case manager would be also
transition coordinating them.
Meaning, what are your postsecondary options? Are you
looking at colleges? Are youlooking at trade schools? Are
(06:05):
you just going to go to theworkforce, the students who are
coming, whether in all four ofthose towns, typically, our one
high school is really geared toassist the students who are
coming up to my programeventually, and not everyone
comes up to me at some point,but we're the program that
offers the job sampling junioryear, Work Based Learning senior
(06:28):
year, and then that continuesthrough our 18 to 21 program.
Meghan Smallwood (06:35):
So how many do you have in your 18 to 21
program?
Zabrina Kearns (06:39):
I have 13.
Meghan Smallwood (06:41):
There's, so there's certain requirements in
order to go to that program,like, do they have to show a
level of independence at work?
Zabrina Kearns (06:47):
Not, it's not just work. So the whole global
theme of our program isindependent living period, and
that encompasses your ability tolive on your own, your ability
to manage your time and yourfinances, your access to the
community, whether that's areyou engaging in, like social
(07:09):
events and clubs? Do you havefriends? And then also, can you
navigate the community? Youknow, a lot of our many of my
participants here don'tultimately get driver's license,
so we're doing a lot of traveltraining. And then finally, that
vocational piece, what does thatlook like? So the eligibility to
come here, you you have to havean IEP. You're not accepting
(07:32):
your diploma your senior year.
So I do think it's beautifulthat they're allowed to walk. I
think that's senior year. Imean, you're to be able to hit
all of your milestones rightwith your friends is important.
But then ultimately, my studentsdo not accept their diploma.
Patrick Cadigan (07:48):
and then in in New Jersey, how? How do they
refer to that? So where we are,you are either receiving a
diploma or you are receivingwhat they refer to as a
Certificate of Completion. Howdoes Jersey refer to it?
Zabrina Kearns (08:02):
I almost think that varies district to
district. I'm in something herecalled the New Jersey community
of practice. So it's all the 18to 21 educators are getting
together all over the state, andit's very interesting to see,
even in the state of New Jersey,how different districts handle
it, because I've heard of kidsin different districts who've
(08:24):
got their diplomas. So we don't.
They do not. They get theirdiploma from me on the day they,
I hope, host like a littlegraduation brunch for them, and
that day, either they'll get thediploma from me along with their
certificate, because I do acertificate of completion for
what they did with us, or theycan go to the main office and
pick up their diploma anytimeafter that.
Meghan Smallwood (08:46):
It's so fascinating to me because I
know, because I'm originallyfrom New York, and it was all
diplomas there, but there were,like, different levels of
diploma, because my sister hasan intellectual disability, but
she still got a diploma, eventhough she went through like
BOCES and like all thevocational training, whereas in
Maryland, it's very definedbetween you get your diploma or
you get a certificate becauseyou haven't met the requirements
(09:08):
for a diploma. So it's just,it's interesting. Yeah, I mean,
there's some students that wehave that it's a hard
conversation to have, because Ithink a lot of parents think if
they haven't gotten the diploma,they're considered like a
failure, or, you know, theyweren't able to do it, but, but
they still are doing greatthings. So it's just, it's
interesting.
Zabrina Kearns (09:27):
Right, I mean, what, what I do on intakes here,
and I'm, I'm extremely open withmy students. We call them
participants up here, right?
They're not technically studentsanymore. They are participating
in this program. They're youngadults. I am very forward with
them about their disability. Wetalk about it. What is it? What
are your deficits? And then, howcan we become 1% better every
(09:49):
single day? And then I also kindof use the phrase like, your IEP
is a key that's unlocking doors.
Your IEP unlock. Lock the door,get you into my program, right?
Your IEP is going to give youthe ability to maybe to get a
New Jersey, reduced transitcard. There's benefits there.
(10:12):
There's benefits in terms of thestate agencies that are going to
be there to support you. Soinstead of looking at it as
there is a failure component fornot graduating, you have,
potentially, depending on whatyear you graduate high school or
what age you graduated, threeyears, to really navigate all of
these things that, I mean, wehave people stop us in the
(10:34):
supermarket saying, I wish I hada teacher like you. I wish
someone showed me how to foodshop. What else does this pro? I
mean, I get asked all the time,like, what is this? Where are
you guys from? I hear you likewalking them through how to use
a debit card or the bank is likethe best. You know, there's
other customers in the bank.
Like, nobody showed me how tomake a deposit. This is amazing,
(10:54):
you know? Yeah. So, I mean, tobe able to get those kind of
life skills and have someonethere coaching you through it is
not a failure. It's reallygiving you such an amazing
foundation that you can buildupon.
Patrick Cadigan (11:12):
Even within just the state and the districts
and how differently they dothings, how what is the level of
collaboration like?
Zabrina Kearns (11:20):
In my own district or across districts?
Patrick Cadigan (11:23):
I suppose a little bit of both.
Meghan Smallwood (11:26):
Well, it sounds like the 18 to 21 rule.
It sounds like there's a lot ofteachers around the district or
across the districts that youcollaborate with.
Zabrina Kearns (11:35):
So we have a phenomenal network. I actually
it's written on my board now,because I was telling my
participants about it today. Weconnect with at least eight to
10 other 18 to 21 programs thatare right in my county, and we
on our CBI trips. We meet upvery frequently.
Meghan Smallwood (11:53):
I love that.
Zabrina Kearns (11:55):
morning with one group, and then my other cohort
is going bowling and havinglunch with another group. But I
also rent one of the seniorcenters here, and what we've
been doing is actually havinglarger gatherings. So many of
(12:17):
the 18 to 21 programs have beenable to get together. So last
year, we had an ugly sweaterparty around the holidays for
Valentine's Day. We actually dida Valentine social, and we made
like the staff here. It wasawesome. We made like 50 hearts,
and cut the hearts in half, andthere were questions on them,
(12:38):
and they had to all go find, youknow who had the other half of
the heart? And you know, becauseeven within my program, having
14 students, that doesn't meaneveryone's friends or wants to
be friends, everybody's abilitylevels are pretty different. So
the more programs we getexposure to, the chances are
you're finding maybe like mindedindividuals, like leveled
(13:01):
individuals, that you could hangout with and and strike up a
friendship with. And it'shelping the staff. So we then, I
get to collaborate with allthese teachers and other
transition coordinators to seehow they're running things. And
it's curious, because we're alldoing things pretty differently.
So our program, for example, mystudents, rotate their
(13:25):
work-based learning every 12 to13 weeks. And then some of the
other programs here, oncethey're in a job site, they're
there for the entire year.
Meghan Smallwood (13:33):
Oh, wow. So when they leave at 21 what is
the outcome from many of yourparticipants? Do they end up
going in, right, straight intowork? Do some of them go to,
like, trade school or postsecondary programs?
Zabrina Kearns (13:50):
So I'm going to be transparent with you and say
this is probably the hardestpart of my position, because at
that point, it's totally parentdriven, and we put out so much
legwork, so much preparing, Ioften say like we're passing you
the baton, and I don't want topass you a fuming baton, so I'm
(14:12):
going to do everything that Ican to make it smooth. And then
when we look back, sometimes alot of it wasn't pursued. So the
ideal is work. New Jersey is awork first state. A lot of the
hesitation that comes aroundthat is the blurred lines
between, how much can I workwithout losing my SSI body plan
(14:35):
and things like that. I am proudto tell you, we have many
students who get hired, and it'sthe sites that are coming to me.
"Hey, so and so is doing aphenomenal job. Can we can we
offer them work?" So I have manystudents who do leave here with
part time work. I would say agreater majority are leaving and
going to day programs. Are theyset up in the day program by the
(14:59):
time they. Leave here, notnecessarily. We try to in
October, really start saying,like, now is the time to start
doing visits and gettingyourself on waiting lists. And I
think, what happens sometimes?
And listen, I'm a mom too, so Iget it. You think June is
farther away, farther away thanit actually is, right, and then
all of a sudden, like, Aprilhits, and everyone's like, we
(15:22):
have three months. We're tryingto, you know, part of my
professional learning communitylast year was, how could we make
our transition timelines moreaccessible, more less
overwhelming, right? Becausethere's so many steps, and
(15:46):
ultimately make that align withwhat you'd like to see after you
graduate, or what the parentwants to see after the
participant graduates,
Patrick Cadigan (16:02):
I think that plays off of the conversation
that we've been having, in thesense that where we are our
county started with this, like,let's break transition down. You
do a little bit of it each year.
So there are like steps to go.
We took that idea and we putbasically just together some
(16:23):
resources, and then that waswhere that conversation started.
Like, hey, if you are afreshman, if you are a diploma
bound freshman, these are someof the things that the families
can do. If you are a certificatetrack family, these are some of
the things that you can do, andyou try to, you know, break down
that process a little bitbecause it is a lot, and it is
very overwhelming.
Zabrina Kearns (16:41):
And does your, I have a question for you guys,
does your state offeralternative programs to the 18
to 21 program that the publicschool offers?
Meghan Smallwood (16:52):
So no, not really. So we're in the same
county in Maryland, and it'salso an employment first state.
So everything you said aspreparing and handing the baton
over to the parents is exactlywhat we experienced, too, and we
still see a lot of delay, evenwith all the information and
(17:12):
resources that we try to givethem after they leave, whether
it be mostly day program, theyhave an option with the state
funding to do something calledself directed, yes, where you
have that as well. Okay, so wesee a lot more doing that, where
there's different programmingoptions, like Community
Development Services, where theycan go for part time, but then
(17:33):
they're still trying to fillthat time with other volunteer
opportunities, communityexploration, those kinds of
things. So it's a daunting task.
And again, it's frustratingsometimes, to be honest, when
you see all these great thingshappening when they're with us,
but then they leave and itdoesn't happen because it's just
too overwhelming, or theprograms have waiting lists, or
(17:56):
whatever the reason may be. Butin terms of our programming
until they're 21 within ourcounty, we have a work program.
They usually start in buildingwhen they're, like, ninth or
10th grade. As they get a littleolder, and it's completely
individualized, but they'll goout in a group, out into the
community for work if they showindependence. We bump them up to
like, work study, where theyhave their own work site. And we
(18:18):
do have a program for the 18 to21 year olds, but it's very
small in our county, and youhave to show a level of
independence to be in thatprogram. Aside from that, they
usually remain in their schoolbuildings until 21 and that's
something we I know we wouldboth love to see change and have
a different option, because youknow, when you're 21 and you've
(18:40):
been sitting in the samebuilding for six or seven years,
six or seven years, and nowyou're with 14 year olds, not...
Zabrina Kearns (18:46):
Very calculated about not doing that. And I wish
I could show you. I know this isaudio only, but my district
actually rents a two familyhouse that's a simulated living
environment.
Meghan Smallwood (18:58):
So you have a house that you can actually,
like, bring them to to, like, dosome of these things for...
Zabrina Kearns (19:04):
Yes, so...
Meghan Smallwood (19:05):
Wow, I love that.
Zabrina Kearns (19:06):
...it looks, you know, it's set up like a house.
So we have a kitchen, we have aliving room area, and if you see
behind me now, there's like afolding bed, so we pull that out
every now and then. But we are,they just purchased upstairs.
I'm so excited. So after the newyear, we'll have access to the
bedrooms upstairs. We're gonnahave a simulated bedroom.
(19:27):
There's laundry here now, sosome of the stuff we used to
have to go out to do, we'll beable to do here. But every
Monday, my group goes out foodshopping. They buy all their
ingredients to make their ownlunch, and then they make their
own lunch here. Every day,they're solely responsible for
cleaning this house, so thecustodians will come in for
(19:48):
backup, but they are learning todo all of the chores here,
changing light bulbs, mowing thelawn. I mean, we do it.
Meghan Smallwood (19:56):
That is so cool.
Zabrina Kearns (19:57):
Yeah, it's a really neat concept that they
developed here.
Meghan Smallwood (20:01):
See, I love that, because I feel like our
focus is solely aroundemployment. You know, we do
functional they have classroomtime for functional skills, but
actually learning things like inhouse that they're going to need
to know, especially the onesthat cognitively want to, you
know, they talk about moving outon their own, getting married,
like having their own place,those kinds of things. Those are
the skills that I would love towork on with some more of our
(20:23):
students.
Zabrina Kearns (20:24):
Yeah, varying, varying levels.
Meghan Smallwood (20:26):
Yeah.
Zabrina Kearns (20:27):
I have students who are asking me questions like
that, like we'll do breakoutkind of sessions, right?
Patrick Cadigan (20:33):
So this is where we'll pause our discussion
with Sabrina. Make sure to comeback for our next episode.
We would love the informationfrom this and all our other
discussions to reach as manyfamilies as possible, and we
need your help to do that, soplease like, follow and share
(20:57):
out our podcast. You can findour conversations on all the
major podcast platforms,including Apple, Spotify,
YouTube music, and that's justnaming a few. So please share
and share often. You can alwaysfind the links to the
information from this discussionin our show notes. Check out our
YouTube channel. We've done someof the legwork for you by
(21:19):
curating videos of topics thatrevolve around transition. We
have playlists that coverguardianship alternatives to
guardianship ABLE accounts, andthere's still more to come as
we're finding videos that wethink will be valuable to use.
So please be sure to subscribethere as well. And then finally,
check out our website, which isfull of information and links to
(21:42):
resources around the transitionprocess. So make sure to go to
www.postsecondarytransition com.
We thank you so much for thetime that you've spent with us,
and look forward to talkingagain soon.
Meghan Smallwood (21:56):
Yes, definitely.
Welcome. This is the Post Secondary Transition
podcast. We have conversationsaround the ins and outs and
everything in between of thetransition process for families
of students with disabilities.
I'm one of the hosts. My name isMeghan Smallwood, and I'm a
public school transitioncoordinator, and my co host is
and
Patrick Cadigan (00:17):
I'm Patrick Cadigan, and I am also a public
school transition coordinator.
All right, so this week, we'regoing to take a pause in the
discussion on expectations thatMeghan and I have been having,
that, you know, basically callsout each individual school year,
because we have an opportunityto speak with another transition
coordinator. However, this oneis located in the faraway land
of New Jersey. Now, backstory,Meghan and I are always touting
(00:41):
the benefits of social media,and this is an example of one of
those cases. Now we belong to aFacebook group of other
transition coordinators, and wepost it about what we were doing
and how we were looking tocollaborate. And our guest
today, Ms. Sabrina Kearnsanswered that call. So thank you
(01:01):
for that.
Zabrina Kearns (01:04):
Thank you. It's I'm so excited to be here and to
start this conversation, I tooam, can tout social media
because I am learning so muchfrom transition coordinators all
over the country because of thatgroup.
Meghan Smallwood (01:19):
Yeah, it's really cool to be able to be
able to connect, because we alsoconnected with someone on the
other side of the country andother countries. So it's really
neat.
Patrick Cadigan (01:27):
It's done pretty well. I mean, again,
we've had those conversationsbefore with families and, you
know, social media, but there,there is a lot there that is
useful and wonderful, and we, webelong to, like other Facebook
groups of families who havegotten together to share out
information. And so again, Ialways, you know, I always
(01:51):
preface the social mediaconversation around there are
good things that happen there.
Meghan Smallwood (01:57):
Well, I think it's so important too, because I
have so many families that, asthey're planning for transition,
they have these dreams of likeretiring to a different state.
And I think it's just soimportant they realize it's not
fluent fluid amongst the states,like you need to be aware of
every other state's requirementsor eligibility or whatever it
is. So I love that we get toknow what else is going on out
(02:21):
there, just for my ownknowledge, too. So I guess
starting with that, can you tellus a little bit about your
professional life, like the workyou do, how long you've been
doing it, and kind of why you dowhat you do.
Zabrina Kearns (02:33):
Absolutely. So I actually started as a teacher
aide in 1999 in a schooldesigned for kids with autism.
So my background is actuallyapplied behavior analysis
Discrete trials. That's where Istarted. That school was pre K
to 21 I was with the little guysfor a really long time, and I
(02:54):
did things kind of backwards. Iwent back to school after
falling in love with thispopulation of individuals, and
really the science of ABA isjust in my blood. So I did get
my bachelor's degree in specialeducation. I got a public
teaching position from there,same thing in an ABA classroom,
(03:16):
and I pursued my master's in EdLeadership, initially, because I
was responsible. Part of meresponsible for so many teacher
assistants, so I felt like I hadsuch an awesome background in
special education, ABA, behaviormanagement, but I didn't know
how to manage my staff. No onetaught me how to do that. So
(03:36):
getting the Masters in EdLeadership really opened my eyes
to group dynamics and how togive really like your peers,
feedback, because it wassomething I was not familiar
with. I did go back to theprivate school that I originally
started in for a while, becausethey hired me as a supervisor.
So I was there for a few years,and then my current position
(03:57):
opened, so I'm back in publicschool, and I actually have
three titles here. So my firsttitle is special education
teacher. And I do teach. Ourcohorts are interesting this
year. But back to basics, Iteach half day, that's my
ultimate ideal schedule, andthen in the afternoon, I put on
the hat of Work Based Learningsupervisor. That's what New
(04:19):
Jersey's certification is calledit's done through the bog Center
at Rutgers, and I oversee all ofmy students internships, and I'm
responsible for our 18 to 21program. And then the seniors
and juniors. Our seniors also dowork based learning, and our
juniors do something called jobsampling, so it's mostly in
(04:43):
house, and I can explain thatfurther. And then my third title
is transition coordinator. Sothat is the newest title for me.
I am. If you give me a job titleand I don't understand part of
it, I go right into the deepend. So I enrolled in. Courses
at the University of Kansas, soI'm getting a second master's
(05:04):
now in Special Education with aconcentration in transition.
Meghan Smallwood (05:09):
So, I guess because in our county, the way
and the way it's set up is thatevery school, we have 13 high
schools, every school has atransition coordinator assigned.
So how is it, and I know in NewJersey districts, right?
Zabrina Kearns (05:24):
We do have different districts. I happen to
be in a Regional High SchoolDistrict..
Meghan Smallwood (05:27):
Okay.
Zabrina Kearns (05:28):
...which is unique. So it's two high
schools, four towns.
Okay, so are you solely atransition coordinator for your
school?
Yes, but the way it works, likeour case managers also assist
with Transition Coordination...
Meghan Smallwood (05:43):
Okay.
Zabrina Kearns (05:44):
...if it was a student, let's say in one of the
high schools who had a 504 or anIEP, and they are not on track
to come to our 18 to 21 program,their case manager would be also
transition coordinating them.
Meaning, what are your postsecondary options? Are you
looking at colleges? Are youlooking at trade schools? Are
(06:05):
you just going to go to theworkforce, the students who are
coming, whether in all four ofthose towns, typically, our one
high school is really geared toassist the students who are
coming up to my programeventually, and not everyone
comes up to me at some point,but we're the program that
offers the job sampling junioryear, Work Based Learning senior
(06:28):
year, and then that continuesthrough our 18 to 21 program.
Meghan Smallwood (06:35):
So how many do you have in your 18 to 21
program?
Zabrina Kearns (06:39):
I have 13.
Meghan Smallwood (06:41):
There's, so there's certain requirements in
order to go to that program,like, do they have to show a
level of independence at work?
Zabrina Kearns (06:47):
Not, it's not just work. So the whole global
theme of our program isindependent living period, and
that encompasses your ability tolive on your own, your ability
to manage your time and yourfinances, your access to the
community, whether that's areyou engaging in, like social
(07:09):
events and clubs? Do you havefriends? And then also, can you
navigate the community? Youknow, a lot of our many of my
participants here don'tultimately get driver's license,
so we're doing a lot of traveltraining. And then finally, that
vocational piece, what does thatlook like? So the eligibility to
come here, you you have to havean IEP. You're not accepting
(07:32):
your diploma your senior year.
So I do think it's beautifulthat they're allowed to walk. I
think that's senior year. Imean, you're to be able to hit
all of your milestones rightwith your friends is important.
But then ultimately, my studentsdo not accept their diploma.
Patrick Cadigan (07:48):
and then in in New Jersey, how? How do they
refer to that? So where we are,you are either receiving a
diploma or you are receivingwhat they refer to as a
Certificate of Completion. Howdoes Jersey refer to it?
Zabrina Kearns (08:02):
I almost think that varies district to
district. I'm in something herecalled the New Jersey community
of practice. So it's all the 18to 21 educators are getting
together all over the state, andit's very interesting to see,
even in the state of New Jersey,how different districts handle
it, because I've heard of kidsin different districts who've
(08:24):
got their diplomas. So we don't.
They do not. They get theirdiploma from me on the day they,
I hope, host like a littlegraduation brunch for them, and
that day, either they'll get thediploma from me along with their
certificate, because I do acertificate of completion for
what they did with us, or theycan go to the main office and
pick up their diploma anytimeafter that.
Meghan Smallwood (08:46):
It's so fascinating to me because I
know, because I'm originallyfrom New York, and it was all
diplomas there, but there were,like, different levels of
diploma, because my sister hasan intellectual disability, but
she still got a diploma, eventhough she went through like
BOCES and like all thevocational training, whereas in
Maryland, it's very definedbetween you get your diploma or
you get a certificate becauseyou haven't met the requirements
(09:08):
for a diploma. So it's just,it's interesting. Yeah, I mean,
there's some students that wehave that it's a hard
conversation to have, because Ithink a lot of parents think if
they haven't gotten the diploma,they're considered like a
failure, or, you know, theyweren't able to do it, but, but
they still are doing greatthings. So it's just, it's
interesting.
Zabrina Kearns (09:27):
Right, I mean, what, what I do on intakes here,
and I'm, I'm extremely open withmy students. We call them
participants up here, right?
They're not technically studentsanymore. They are participating
in this program. They're youngadults. I am very forward with
them about their disability. Wetalk about it. What is it? What
are your deficits? And then, howcan we become 1% better every
(09:49):
single day? And then I also kindof use the phrase like, your IEP
is a key that's unlocking doors.
Your IEP unlock. Lock the door,get you into my program, right?
Your IEP is going to give youthe ability to maybe to get a
New Jersey, reduced transitcard. There's benefits there.
(10:12):
There's benefits in terms of thestate agencies that are going to
be there to support you. Soinstead of looking at it as
there is a failure component fornot graduating, you have,
potentially, depending on whatyear you graduate high school or
what age you graduated, threeyears, to really navigate all of
these things that, I mean, wehave people stop us in the
(10:34):
supermarket saying, I wish I hada teacher like you. I wish
someone showed me how to foodshop. What else does this pro? I
mean, I get asked all the time,like, what is this? Where are
you guys from? I hear you likewalking them through how to use
a debit card or the bank is likethe best. You know, there's
other customers in the bank.
Like, nobody showed me how tomake a deposit. This is amazing,
(10:54):
you know? Yeah. So, I mean, tobe able to get those kind of
life skills and have someonethere coaching you through it is
not a failure. It's reallygiving you such an amazing
foundation that you can buildupon.
Patrick Cadigan (11:12):
Even within just the state and the districts
and how differently they dothings, how what is the level of
collaboration like?
Zabrina Kearns (11:20):
In my own district or across districts?
Patrick Cadigan (11:23):
I suppose a little bit of both.
Meghan Smallwood (11:26):
Well, it sounds like the 18 to 21 rule.
It sounds like there's a lot ofteachers around the district or
across the districts that youcollaborate with.
Zabrina Kearns (11:35):
So we have a phenomenal network. I actually
it's written on my board now,because I was telling my
participants about it today. Weconnect with at least eight to
10 other 18 to 21 programs thatare right in my county, and we
on our CBI trips. We meet upvery frequently.
Meghan Smallwood (11:53):
I love that.
Zabrina Kearns (11:55):
morning with one group, and then my other cohort
is going bowling and havinglunch with another group. But I
also rent one of the seniorcenters here, and what we've
been doing is actually havinglarger gatherings. So many of
(12:17):
the 18 to 21 programs have beenable to get together. So last
year, we had an ugly sweaterparty around the holidays for
Valentine's Day. We actually dida Valentine social, and we made
like the staff here. It wasawesome. We made like 50 hearts,
and cut the hearts in half, andthere were questions on them,
(12:38):
and they had to all go find, youknow who had the other half of
the heart? And you know, becauseeven within my program, having
14 students, that doesn't meaneveryone's friends or wants to
be friends, everybody's abilitylevels are pretty different. So
the more programs we getexposure to, the chances are
you're finding maybe like mindedindividuals, like leveled
(13:01):
individuals, that you could hangout with and and strike up a
friendship with. And it'shelping the staff. So we then, I
get to collaborate with allthese teachers and other
transition coordinators to seehow they're running things. And
it's curious, because we're alldoing things pretty differently.
So our program, for example, mystudents, rotate their
(13:25):
work-based learning every 12 to13 weeks. And then some of the
other programs here, oncethey're in a job site, they're
there for the entire year.
Meghan Smallwood (13:33):
Oh, wow. So when they leave at 21 what is
the outcome from many of yourparticipants? Do they end up
going in, right, straight intowork? Do some of them go to,
like, trade school or postsecondary programs?
Zabrina Kearns (13:50):
So I'm going to be transparent with you and say
this is probably the hardestpart of my position, because at
that point, it's totally parentdriven, and we put out so much
legwork, so much preparing, Ioften say like we're passing you
the baton, and I don't want topass you a fuming baton, so I'm
(14:12):
going to do everything that Ican to make it smooth. And then
when we look back, sometimes alot of it wasn't pursued. So the
ideal is work. New Jersey is awork first state. A lot of the
hesitation that comes aroundthat is the blurred lines
between, how much can I workwithout losing my SSI body plan
(14:35):
and things like that. I am proudto tell you, we have many
students who get hired, and it'sthe sites that are coming to me.
"Hey, so and so is doing aphenomenal job. Can we can we
offer them work?" So I have manystudents who do leave here with
part time work. I would say agreater majority are leaving and
going to day programs. Are theyset up in the day program by the
(14:59):
time they. Leave here, notnecessarily. We try to in
October, really start saying,like, now is the time to start
doing visits and gettingyourself on waiting lists. And I
think, what happens sometimes?
And listen, I'm a mom too, so Iget it. You think June is
farther away, farther away thanit actually is, right, and then
all of a sudden, like, Aprilhits, and everyone's like, we
(15:22):
have three months. We're tryingto, you know, part of my
professional learning communitylast year was, how could we make
our transition timelines moreaccessible, more less
overwhelming, right? Becausethere's so many steps, and
(15:46):
ultimately make that align withwhat you'd like to see after you
graduate, or what the parentwants to see after the
participant graduates,
Patrick Cadigan (16:02):
I think that plays off of the conversation
that we've been having, in thesense that where we are our
county started with this, like,let's break transition down. You
do a little bit of it each year.
So there are like steps to go.
We took that idea and we putbasically just together some
(16:23):
resources, and then that waswhere that conversation started.
Like, hey, if you are afreshman, if you are a diploma
bound freshman, these are someof the things that the families
can do. If you are a certificatetrack family, these are some of
the things that you can do, andyou try to, you know, break down
that process a little bitbecause it is a lot, and it is
very overwhelming.
Zabrina Kearns (16:41):
And does your, I have a question for you guys,
does your state offeralternative programs to the 18
to 21 program that the publicschool offers?
Meghan Smallwood (16:52):
So no, not really. So we're in the same
county in Maryland, and it'salso an employment first state.
So everything you said aspreparing and handing the baton
over to the parents is exactlywhat we experienced, too, and we
still see a lot of delay, evenwith all the information and
(17:12):
resources that we try to givethem after they leave, whether
it be mostly day program, theyhave an option with the state
funding to do something calledself directed, yes, where you
have that as well. Okay, so wesee a lot more doing that, where
there's different programmingoptions, like Community
Development Services, where theycan go for part time, but then
(17:33):
they're still trying to fillthat time with other volunteer
opportunities, communityexploration, those kinds of
things. So it's a daunting task.
And again, it's frustratingsometimes, to be honest, when
you see all these great thingshappening when they're with us,
but then they leave and itdoesn't happen because it's just
too overwhelming, or theprograms have waiting lists, or
(17:56):
whatever the reason may be. Butin terms of our programming
until they're 21 within ourcounty, we have a work program.
They usually start in buildingwhen they're, like, ninth or
10th grade. As they get a littleolder, and it's completely
individualized, but they'll goout in a group, out into the
community for work if they showindependence. We bump them up to
like, work study, where theyhave their own work site. And we
(18:18):
do have a program for the 18 to21 year olds, but it's very
small in our county, and youhave to show a level of
independence to be in thatprogram. Aside from that, they
usually remain in their schoolbuildings until 21 and that's
something we I know we wouldboth love to see change and have
a different option, because youknow, when you're 21 and you've
(18:40):
been sitting in the samebuilding for six or seven years,
six or seven years, and nowyou're with 14 year olds, not...
Zabrina Kearns (18:46):
Very calculated about not doing that. And I wish
I could show you. I know this isaudio only, but my district
actually rents a two familyhouse that's a simulated living
environment.
Meghan Smallwood (18:58):
So you have a house that you can actually,
like, bring them to to, like, dosome of these things for...
Zabrina Kearns (19:04):
Yes, so...
Meghan Smallwood (19:05):
Wow, I love that.
Zabrina Kearns (19:06):
...it looks, you know, it's set up like a house.
So we have a kitchen, we have aliving room area, and if you see
behind me now, there's like afolding bed, so we pull that out
every now and then. But we are,they just purchased upstairs.
I'm so excited. So after the newyear, we'll have access to the
bedrooms upstairs. We're gonnahave a simulated bedroom.
(19:27):
There's laundry here now, sosome of the stuff we used to
have to go out to do, we'll beable to do here. But every
Monday, my group goes out foodshopping. They buy all their
ingredients to make their ownlunch, and then they make their
own lunch here. Every day,they're solely responsible for
cleaning this house, so thecustodians will come in for
(19:48):
backup, but they are learning todo all of the chores here,
changing light bulbs, mowing thelawn. I mean, we do it.
Meghan Smallwood (19:56):
That is so cool.
Zabrina Kearns (19:57):
Yeah, it's a really neat concept that they
developed here.
Meghan Smallwood (20:01):
See, I love that, because I feel like our
focus is solely aroundemployment. You know, we do
functional they have classroomtime for functional skills, but
actually learning things like inhouse that they're going to need
to know, especially the onesthat cognitively want to, you
know, they talk about moving outon their own, getting married,
like having their own place,those kinds of things. Those are
the skills that I would love towork on with some more of our
(20:23):
students.
Zabrina Kearns (20:24):
Yeah, varying, varying levels.
Meghan Smallwood (20:26):
Yeah.
Zabrina Kearns (20:27):
I have students who are asking me questions like
that, like we'll do breakoutkind of sessions, right?
Patrick Cadigan (20:33):
So this is where we'll pause our discussion
with Sabrina. Make sure to comeback for our next episode.
We would love the informationfrom this and all our other
discussions to reach as manyfamilies as possible, and we
need your help to do that, soplease like, follow and share
(20:57):
out our podcast. You can findour conversations on all the
major podcast platforms,including Apple, Spotify,
YouTube music, and that's justnaming a few. So please share
and share often. You can alwaysfind the links to the
information from this discussionin our show notes. Check out our
YouTube channel. We've done someof the legwork for you by
(21:19):
curating videos of topics thatrevolve around transition. We
have playlists that coverguardianship alternatives to
guardianship ABLE accounts, andthere's still more to come as
we're finding videos that wethink will be valuable to use.
So please be sure to subscribethere as well. And then finally,
check out our website, which isfull of information and links to
(21:42):
resources around the transitionprocess. So make sure to go to
www.postsecondarytransition com.
We thank you so much for thetime that you've spent with us,
and look forward to talkingagain soon.
Meghan Smallwood (21:56):
Yes, definitely.
Popular Podcasts
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com