September 30, 2024 • 31 mins
Hosts Meghan (Smallwood) and Patrick (Cadigan) continue their conversation with educator, supervisor and transition coordinator Zabrina Kearns. They cover the importance of teaching soft skills like professionalism & interactions, the need for students to gain experience in various industries, the complexities of funding and the need for better communication with families about available resources through local DD and VR agencies. Join the conversation!
Episode Keywords:
DVRS, transition, students, coordinator, families, learning, jobs, DDD, career, graduate, community, volunteer, challenges
Links:
University of Kansas Master Program in Secondary Education & Transition (site)
Charting the LifeCourse (site)
New Jersey Division of Vocational Rehabilitation Services (site)
Trying to find your states Rehabilitation Agency? Look for it here.
Project Search (site)
Pascack Valley Regional High School District Transition Resources (site)
To download a copy of a transcript for this episode or any of our previous conversations, click here.
Also visit our Podcast webpage to find links to all of our other discussions; go to www.p2transition.com.
Additional information about post-secondary transition can be found at our website.
The Post-Secondary Transition Podcast Facebook page.
Visit our YouTube Channel to find additional video resources.
Intro/Outro music by AudioCoffee from Pixabay.
Transition music by Joseph McDade from Transistor.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Meghan Smallwood (00:00):
Welcome. This is the Post Secondary Transition
podcast. We have conversationsaround the ins and outs and
everything in between of thetransition process for families
of students with disabilities.
I'm one of the hosts. My name isMeghan Smallwood, and I am a
public school transitioncoordinator, and my co-host
is..?
Patrick Cadigan (00:17):
And I'm Patrick Cadigan, and I am also a public
school transition coordinator.
So here we are this week, we'regoing to continue our
conversation with Zabrina Kearnsfrom the start of our discussion
last week, you'll remember thatwe met Zabrina in a social media
group for transitioncoordinators, and she was happy
to meet with us and talk aboutsome of the things she's doing.
(00:37):
So we'll continue with thatdiscussion already in progress.
The other thing, though, that Ifind interesting is, is that
when having this discussion, andthis has been coming up quite a
bit lately, is the challenges,even post covid, just how that
whole like that whole event,decimated so much of what was
(01:04):
being done, or at least broughtit to a screeching halt. And
we're still feeling the effectsof that like we're still hearing
like stories families who weretalking about, you know, just
roadblocks that they keeprunning into, or funding issues
or stuff. And a lot of it comesback to being, you know, that
they're saying that covid had aneffect on that,
Zabrina Kearns (01:24):
Yeah. I mean, that definitely was the case.
Immediately after, it was veryhard to find job sites that
would take us on internships,yeah, but now we're, I mean, I
think we have somewhere between20 and 25 business partners in
the immediate area here that ourparticipants rotate through. But
(01:46):
that could be a little bitchallenging in itself too,
because my participants, who arevery successful, the parents,
automatically assume like thatthe place they're going to work,
right? So I think some of mynext steps are learning that
third year. So my students whoare graduating, what does that
third year look like? Can westart fading your job coach, and
(02:10):
can we start placing you at aninternship site that's not in
our bag of tricks, but is morein line with what you see
yourself doing.
Meghan Smallwood (02:22):
We've had all that too. I know when they've
been doing so well, or, like Isaid, when they go self
directed, and the families arelike, Well, where can they go
volunteer? Can they continue tovolunteer here? We're like,
Well, I mean, we have so manyother students. We want to
volunteer too. We don't want tojust, all, you know, taken away.
But I get where they're comingfrom.
Zabrina Kearns (02:40):
Definitely, especially because you've worked
so hard to build a rapport...
Meghan Smallwood (02:43):
Right, right.
Zabrina Kearns (02:44):
...but that's really one of my next goals, is,
how can I, you know, and I don'tknow what your students to staff
ratio is, but you know, we don'tnecessarily always have the
luxury of either sending one,you know, one to one out. I
mean, I do. I it's usually twoto one here, and I do have many
(03:05):
participants who can go out bythemselves, and I will
intentionally send them to myplaces where the owner of the
business is a built in jobcoach. Like, I have places here
who just get it. They are ourkindred spirits, and they're
like, I've got this. You don'tneed a coach here. And they're
taking data for us and giving usfeedback. And then we'll have
(03:28):
coaches come in sporadically toget some data, of course, and
then to have conversations. Andthen myself, I go in, our
behaviors still go in. But Ihave a couple of sites here that
are just like, Nope, weunderstand. So if I can make
more business partners likethat, then yes, our students who
(03:49):
are leaving and exiting wouldhave greater opportunity to
potentially get hired, right?
Also, and I don't know if yourun into this issue, it's
twofold, right? It's we'rereally trying to teach you these
entry level soft skill, right?
Professionalism, how to interactwith colleagues, how to interact
(04:09):
with customers, how to dressappropriately for work, taking
less breaks, right? That's kindof our Mo is not necessarily
that you're walking in andlearning how to take an engine
apart. Yes, right? So it's not,you know, when we talk about
(04:29):
work based learning, it's reallythose soft skills, yep, and I
have had students who are verycareer tracked, and that's a
whole nother conversation.
Meghan Smallwood (04:40):
Yeah, that.
That is a conversation we havewith a lot of parents. When we
approach them with our workprogram out in the community,
and they see some of the jobs,and right away they're like,
Well, I don't want my child outthere cleaning. I don't want
them working here. So we have togo into the explanation about,
well, they've never had a job.
Think about when you were 16.
You didn't start out in yourcareer field. You had to learn
(05:01):
what it was like to have a joband all those soft skills. So
that's what we're aiming to do,you know, and work our way up to
building to that career. Butsome parents, I think, have a
hard time with that.
Zabrina Kearns (05:14):
I mean, my first job was sweeping floors at a
pizzeria and answering phones,right?
Meghan Smallwood (05:19):
Exactly. Yeah.
Zabrina Kearns (05:20):
And the beauty of like, I can sometimes find
myself stressed about our 13week rotation, because it's to
change like, you know, 14 plusmy 620, 2323 students every 13
weeks are rotating to new jobs,right? There's like, holy
(05:41):
smokes. How am I going to dothis factor? But then it's by
the time you graduate from us,you've had retail, pet care,
business settings, restaurantsettings, break that down into
fast food versus sit down likereally, getting a nice taste of
many industries. And you decide,okay, I really like that. I
(06:03):
hated that. This was had me onmy feet the whole time. This
one, oh, don't send me back to aplace where I have to have that
much, you know, communicationwith people stick me in the back
room. I like that better, youknow. And we're learning skill
sets and preferences and andthings like that. So if I have
(06:24):
participants here who aretelling me they're taking
classes at a community collegeat night, or they graduated high
school with certain certificatesbecause they went to, let's say,
a BOCES, or, you know, half dayHigh School, half day trade
school. Those are theparticipants that I am more
inclined to tailor what they'redoing. So for example, someone
(06:50):
here was pursuing their bakingcertificate at a community
college. So then I said, I willwork hard now to find you a more
tailored experience. It'ssomeone that I could send to a
job site solo, so I didn't needa coach there all the time. And
you're putting in effort outsideof here to craft, you know, hone
(07:13):
in on your skill. But my jobcoach is not going to be able to
teach you how to ice cupcakes,right? Or, you know what I'm
saying, like, and then anotherparticipant who was took, like,
video editing courses. Sobecause of that, and because he
continued to pursue it, I wasable to one of his work based
learning, was with a localvideography company, and he
(07:37):
happened to be the one whofilmed our promo video for our
18 to 21 program. But that waschallenging, because even with
that, a lot of his experiencewas driven by me. So I kept
coming up with, what could we donext? You know, we were even
shooting commercials for a lotof the other sites for their
social media. But, you know, I'mwilling to get more creative and
(08:01):
put that kind of effort in whenthe student and family are
simultaneously enrolling them incourses outside of here, I know
that you're very driven in thatcareer. You know what I mean?
You can't just come and say,like, I want to be a voice
actor.
Patrick Cadigan (08:18):
I want to stream on YouTube, okay.
Zabrina Kearns (08:20):
Right, job coach here, and what we're we don't
have the capacity to teach youthat kind of nuanced skill. But
if you're learning it outside ofhere, and you want me to now
marry that with my coaching, andI can give you a coach that it's
different than what I can'ttailor it to that degree, to
(08:41):
every single participant.
That's...
Meghan Smallwood (08:43):
Right, no, that makes perfect sense. And,
and I think, you know, it showsthe dedication, and they really
are, have the drive, you know,it's not just, I feel like a lot
of times we hear when they comein at 14, they they're going to
do this, they're going to go andbe a doctor, like, well, have
they shown an interest in that?
You know? And you come to findout, no, not really. So, yeah.
Zabrina Kearns (09:03):
Right, well, especially at 14, I mean, your
career that happens is, and he'sgot, like, a laundry list of and
I'm sure that's going to change15 times before he graduates.
Meghan Smallwood (09:14):
Exactly as I would hope it should, because
every year, you learn a newskill set, or you're exposed to
a new air, you know, job, andyou discover something more you
like or you didn't like, I mean,and that's why I told the
families, like, you know, we dointerest inventories, and
they're like, Well, I've neverseen them show an interest in
working with animals. And I waslike, well, that's why we try
it, because firsthand, we'll seefor real. Did they really enjoy
(09:37):
doing this? Or did they get inthere and they're like, No, not
for me. So it's just a lot ofthings that go into it, but the
parent and the student need tobe open to that experience.
Patrick Cadigan (09:50):
And then Sabrina, when you so playing off
of that, when you arecommunicating with families, or
like, when very early on in theprocess. This as you are
learning both the student andthe families. How do you
communicate to them yourexpectations or what you I
guess, how do you, how do youdefine your job to the families
(10:14):
that you're about to work with?
Zabrina Kearns (10:16):
Hmm, well, again, we're taking it from the
lens of like, my role as yourwork based learning supervisor
over the course of these nextfew years is to open doors for
you to as many career clusters.
That's what it's called in NewJersey, career clusters as
possible. So you can begin tonarrow down which of those
(10:37):
clusters is most appealing foryou, career wise, and then
simultaneously, it's to teachyou the readiness skills to be a
great employee. And we'll talk alot about what, what being a
great employee looks like. Sothat's when I'm wearing that
hat, when I'm wearing thetransition coordinator hat. And
(10:59):
I need to get this quote becauseI just actually put it on my
LinkedIn. But part of mycoursework in one of my classes
at the University of Kansas,they said our job at transition
coordinators is to help youdesign a life that others envy.
And I I just that quote justmakes me feel so good inside,
(11:21):
right? Like, what if you were tojust you were to tell people,
what is your ideal life? What issomeone's ideal life? It's
having family around you thatyou connect with. It's having a
group of friends. It's maybevolunteering in your community
and feeling satisfied with workand feeling like you're
(11:41):
contributing, making acontribution, so I like that.
Yeah, right. So as transitioncoordinator, I have now firmly
stated that my role is, when yougraduate here, we want you to
have a life that other peoplewould envy, like, Wow, good
Sabrina. She's got it going on.
She's got, she loves, you know,she has relationships, you know,
(12:07):
whatever that looks like, herfriends, her family, her kids.
She's giving back to hercommunity, whatever that looks
like. And she's, she's makingher mark, whatever that looks so
and for our students, obviouslythat's going to look very
different. So I think that evenif you you know we sometimes
look like, Oh, they're not goingto have a career. Ultimately,
(12:30):
we're going program route. Wedon't have to look at that like,
right? No, I'm still doingthings in other aspects of my
life where maybe I'mcontributing. So at my day
program, I might be on thereceiving end, and I'm a taker,
but in the community, I'mvolunteering for dog shelter or
I'm volunteering for my localfood pantry. So there's ways
(12:53):
that I can still be acontributor...
Meghan Smallwood (12:57):
An active participant in the community,
yep. Yeah, that's what we have.
We follow the charting, the lifecourse. That's been some new
framework that the state ofMaryland, you know, especially
for those going self directed,but for anyone as they're
planning to move forward, thatwe've encouraged our families.
And we have a woman whose sonwent through our county, and she
always phrased that, I lovethis. It's, you know, what's
(13:19):
your good life look like, andit's going to be different from,
you know, this person's goodlife, but what's important to
them? And keep that in mind, andlike, not just from one person,
it's from all these differentpeople in their lives,
contributing to what their goodlife may look like. But it just
makes it puts in perspective,because I feel like we get so
(13:41):
wrapped up in they need to work,they need to do this, they need
to do that. But like you said,it's so it's so dependent on the
person and what's important tothem, and we have to remember
that as we plan.
Zabrina Kearns (13:55):
I also, in addition to my work here in the
school district, I work for anagency, and rooted in ABA
therapy, so many of thesestudents, or learners, as we
call them, there are gettingtherapy in home. And my boss
recently approached me and said,You know, I see what you're
doing in your school district. Iwould love to extend our
(14:18):
services to 21 and beyond now,so I have taken on the role as
our adult Director of AdultServices for that agency. And
when I just met with our staff,I really encourage them. You
know, a lot of times you'relike, I want to be with the
little ones, you know, so inyour preschool bubble, or you
(14:38):
get in your elementary schoolbubble, and you're very narrow,
visioned of this is a lifespandisability, and our little guys
grow up to be adults, so Iencourage them that even if they
have no desire to necessarilywork with the adult population
to get themselves. In a positionwhere they are meeting adults
(15:03):
with special needs, because Ithink it's important to see the
work that they're doing and thefoundation that they're laying
is contributing to who theseindividuals will be someday, you
know. So, you know, I said tothem, I'm like, I am going to
plug the 21 plus division nowfor our agency, but at the same
(15:25):
time, even if that's notnecessarily where your heart's
desire is, put yourself in asituation or a position. You
know, we have a lot of there'sagencies now here who are doing
social groups for adults, andit's really cool. I'm like, if
you can volunteer your time on aweekend just to get give
yourself exposure. And you know,I never thought that the 2018 to
(15:48):
21 population would be where Isettle, but it this has been
such a joy and a blessing in mylife. And I love like that, last
day is so bittersweet whenthey're leaving us, you know...
Yeah.
...but to see how far they'vecome, even in just three years.
Meghan Smallwood (16:05):
And I'm sure they still keep in touch with
you?
Zabrina Kearns (16:07):
They do. We just went the New York Giants just
did Fan-Fest Friday night, and Isaw two of my graduates.
Meghan Smallwood (16:15):
Oh, that's awesome.
Zabrina Kearns (16:16):
Oh my gosh.
Like, what are you doing? Whatare you up to? Like, so excited
to see you here. And...
Oh, that's so cool.
...the funniest part. Is whenthese guys are like, I'm turning
21 I'm having my first beer. I'mlike, you know, like of your
these students that you justdon't get out...
Meghan Smallwood (16:36):
Yes, many that leave, and they're like, Okay,
once I turn 21 we're being goingto go and be friends on
Facebook.
Zabrina Ke (16:44):
Right......navigate.
Patrick Cadigan (16:45):
If you can articulate what do you see as
the biggest benefits to yourjob?
Zabrina Kearns (16:50):
For my students?
Patrick Cadigan (16:52):
For you actually. From looking at it,
from the job.
Zabrina Kearns (16:57):
The biggest benefits? Well, I don't know
this is going to sound strange,I guess, but I think it's taught
me, it's actually helped me inmy own life, because I have I
chuckle sometimes when I'm doingsome of my own adulting and I'm
(17:17):
like, girl, you need to practicewhat you preach, right? So here
we're like, you know, use yourGoogle Calendar and time
management and budgeting, andthen in my own life, when maybe
I'm dropping the ball in some ofthose areas, I've actually, you
know, put my own teacher hatback on. And I'm like, All
(17:39):
right, maybe this is an areateacher, Sabrina, can help real
life, Sabrina, you know, so ifanything in my personal life,
it's reminded me that, you know,life is hard not having a
disability, right? Like we haveso many responsibilities,
(18:00):
there's so many things tonavigate as an adult, everything
from social interactions toholding down a career and being
a parent and juggling all thesehats that we wear and we do put
really high expectations on, Ithink just students in general,
and then our Students withdisabilities are navigating
(18:21):
another whole layer of that. Soif anything, it's shown me the
areas in my life where maybe Ipersonally need to step up, and
then it's shown me areas where Ineed to show myself a little
grace, and my students a littlegrace, that it's, you know, it's
okay to make mistakes. We'rehere to help them course
(18:43):
correct. And I thank God that Ihave really good friends in my
life who want me course correctwhen needed.
Patrick Cadigan (18:52):
Good deal. And then now what about, what are
the most challenging aspects ofthe job?
Zabrina Kearns (18:57):
I would say that whole when it comes time to the
baton passing is, you know, I,I'm gonna be very blunt. I saw
someone posted in one of ourgroups. I don't know which group
we actually met in, because I'min a few it was a teacher aide,
and she wrote, oh, ourtransition coordinator dropped
(19:18):
the ball because this kidgraduated and didn't have a job,
and I was like, Oh, ouch, rightnow, it wasn't me she was
talking about. I didn't know whothis girl was, but I'm like, you
could say that about me, thatI've had students leave here and
they didn't have a job when theyleft, but I don't know if you
understand all of the variablesthat go I have parents who flat
(19:40):
out told me, I think yourprogram's great, and I love that
they're doing work basedlearning, but I have no
intentions of them working whenthey leave here flat out now my
aide might not know that,because it's kind of none of
their business, right? We sharesome information on a need to
know basis. They're not sittingin all of the IEP meetings what
the family wants and desires interms of. What their medical
benefit is, or whatever it ispersonal that they may not work
(20:04):
after. You know, I don't want tosay like this. The only phrase I
could think of is like, youcould lead a horse to water, but
you can't make them drink. Idon't that's necessarily the
kindest or most appropriatephrase in this statement. But
like, if we're giving you allthe tools and all the
connections and you opt not touse them, it could still look,
(20:28):
at the end of the day that I, asthe transition coordinator,
dropped the ball, didn't do myjob right? The other really
challenging thing for me is I'mlearning ddd and DVRS and what
they offer. I just happen to bea transition coordinator who has
a son with an IEP. So what Ihave done Now, mind you, his
(20:52):
functioning level issignificantly higher than my
students here. However, Idecided at age 14 for him to
register to DVRS, because youcan do the Pre-ETS, the
pre-employment transitionservices. And I did it just to
see what it was like on theparent side. The turnaround time
as slow as everyone's tellingme, it actually wasn't. I got
(21:14):
the letter was four weeks to theday, then we turned it in. My
appointment was two weeks afterthat. DVRS is actually hunting
me down because I haven't had afew minutes, because I'm moving
to connect with them. So I'mfinding that all the kind of
rumors that I heard about DVRSto date are not accurate. Now,
are they on top of me becausethey know my role as an
(21:37):
educator? I don't know. I can'tanswer that. But learning, I
would say challenge number twois learning, um, DDD and DVRS,
what exactly they offer, whatages you're allowed to have
access to, and things like that,and then those limitations of
(21:58):
your benefits...
Meghan Smallwood (21:59):
Yeah.
Zabrina Kearns (22:00):
...well, we're teaching you all these great
work skills, but then you canonly work so much.
Meghan Smallwood (22:04):
You can only work, yeah.
Zabrina Kearns (22:05):
...could lose your benefits.
Meghan Smallwood (22:07):
So for those, you said the case managers that
aren't in like, you know, thestudents who aren't in the 18 to
21 program, but they have casemanagers in the school who kind
of also act as the transitioncoordinator or person for them.
What kind of do they get anytraining on DVRS or DDD, to know
what to tell families.
Zabrina Kearns (22:26):
I don't know truthfully, that those students
are accessing or, I mean,they're told about it, but I
think in their head, they'relike, Oh, we definitely don't
need DDD. But I don't know thatDVRS is being promoted as much
as maybe it should be.
Meghan Smallwood (22:44):
Yeah.
Zabrina Kearns (22:45):
Because even in some of the trainings that I've
been to like I've learned theycan even help with college,
college tuition could be paid ifyou need help or accessing
special education services. AndI don't think many people know
about...
Meghan Smallwood (23:03):
Yeah.
Zabrina Kearns (23:03):
...perks.
Meghan Smallwood (23:04):
That's similar. So ours is, is called
DORS, the Division ofRehabilitation Services; that's
our DVRS. And I would say thesame. It's not they're just
notoriously been thought of asinconsistent with communication,
which, I think it varies too,depending on how on top of it
you stay, or, you know, thecoordinator or the counselor you
have, but ultimately, they offera great amount of things, but I
(23:28):
don't think it's taken advantageof enough by students and
families.
Zabrina Kearns (23:33):
Right? And then the other blurry line, which is
maybe something you can educateme on, is we do well, you said
you don't really have alternateprograms, like, do you have
Project SEARCH?
Meghan Smallwood (23:43):
We do have Project SEARCH, yes.
Zabrina Kearns (23:45):
So we have Project SEARCH, and we also have
another program here, and it'sthe big question of the day is,
who funds that? So we have aparticipant, let's say who's
maybe a little bit beyondoffering, but they they want to
go to one of those otherprograms who's paying for that
(24:08):
ultimately, gotcha right? Ifyou're if you're functioning at
a level that they basicallysupersedes what we're offering,
you're ready to work. You'reready to take college classes,
but you're 19 or 20, you'retechnically allowed with us till
you're 21 you could start thatprogram early. Where does the
(24:31):
funding come from?
Meghan Smallwood (24:33):
Yeah, yeah, that's interesting. Yeah.
Project SEARCH is the program inour in our county that is, like,
considered top tier forindependence, and like, you
know, we only have 12 spots, butthey have to be DORS and DDA
eligible, or DVRS and DDDeligible.
Zabrina Kearns (24:55):
Does your district pay for Project SEARCH
kids or DVRS is paying...paying?
Meghan Smallwood (25:00):
They're still technically in the school
system, so the district would bepaying it, because DDA would not
kick in until 21 and I thinkDORS is just, they just have to
be eligible. But I wish we hadmore options than just that. You
know, it's, I think, of all thestudents we have. And I wish
there was other programmingoptions, alternative options
(25:21):
before 21.
Zabrina Kearns (25:22):
I know, after starting this career,
specifically with transition, myheart and I know it's going to
happen someday. I'm just not ina position at this moment like I
really want to start my own...
Meghan Smallwood (25:34):
Yeah.
Zabrina Kearns (25:34):
...post-21...
Meghan Smallwood (25:36):
Oh, there's a couple transition coordinators I
have joked about that. That'llbe our retirement gig.
Zabrina Kearns (25:40):
Right? Let me add one more thing to my three
job titles and the agency I'mworking, but I just see such a
need, especially for the graykids, right?
Meghan Smallwood (25:52):
Yes.
Zabrina Kearns (25:53):
Not quite a day program...
...uh, you knowcolumn and you're not quite the
Meghan Smallwood (25:56):
Yep.
full time work column.
Yep.
Zabrina Kearns (26:04):
Who are you?
Meghan Smallwood (26:04):
Those tweeners.
Zabrina Kearns (26:05):
Right? How can we best support you? And that's
that is what DDD self directedis supposed to be, right? So
we're going to get you workingpart of your day. We're going to
get you out in the community,but that still requires, like, a
lot of manpower on mom anddad...
Meghan Smallwood (26:20):
Yes.
Zabrina Kearns (26:22):
...potentially not working, you know,
themselves.
Meghan Smallwood (26:24):
Yes.
Zabrina Kearns (26:26):
So I would love to be able to design something
that encompasses all of thosethings for you. Mom and Dad can
still live their lives and workand then this student, or
whatever we're calling them whenthey graduate, this young adult
kind of has the best of allworlds that we're offering you
(26:46):
while you're here, community,access, some kind of vocational
experience, and then access toyour community.
Meghan Smallwood (26:56):
Well, let me know when you get it sorted.
I will.
We'll copy your model.
Zabrina Kearns (27:02):
Yeah, you guys will be the first call, for
sure.
Meghan Smallwood (27:05):
Yeah,
Patrick Cadigan (27:05):
I can definitely throw out there that
this conversation is on a wholedifferent level, quite where I'm
at right now. As we were movinginto season three, when we did
the previous two seasons, I wasthe special educator. So I was
always positioning myself as thesurrogate for the family. I've
only been doing TransitionCoordination now as a job for
(27:29):
like, a couple of weeks. Andit's, there's, there was always
the the part that we talkedabout, and the part that I
thought, that I understood. Andthen now there's...
Zabrina Kearns (27:38):
This is my fourth year here. I mean, I'm
many years under my belt, likein general, but transition world
four years, and I feel like Ihave a lot to learn. I mean, I
only have two classes left in mygrad school for transition, and
I still feel like I have a lotto learn. And the you know, and
I will say the University ofKansas is doing amazing things,
(28:01):
amazing. And the state of NewJersey, when you sit in these
community of practices, alsotheir vision of what this should
look like is also amazing. Butthe vision and the application
are two different things, andtrying to work your best with
the budget that you have, thenumber of staff that you have,
(28:21):
all the moving parts that gointo what a day I mean, if I had
a camera following me around,you'd be like, how are you even
doing this? You know, becauseyou want everyone to have the
best experience possible, andthat takes a lot of people and a
lot of time and a lot ofresources.
Patrick Cadigan (28:39):
Well, and that's...
Meghan Smallwood (28:40):
Yeah.
Patrick Cadigan (28:40):
...where the individualization comes in,
because that's one of the otherchallenges in terms of just
transition in general. Andagain, it's something that I
feel like my world has opened upa bit in that regards, is that
Meghan has always saidtransition is so individualized,
and now I'm kind of like whatyou were talking about before.
(29:01):
I'm seeing it, and I'm watchingit, and I'm experiencing it all
now in real time. And it's like,oh man, how do you how do you
coordinate all of that?
Zabrina, wecan't. Thank you enough for...
Zabrina Kearns (29:11):
I agree,
Meghan Smallwood (29:15):
Yes.
Patrick Cadigan (29:15):
...taking the time out to talk with us. Like I
said, I'm gonna have to go backand listen to this four or five
times to, like, truly absorbeverything that you guys talked
about.
Zabrina Kearns (29:27):
I'm so happy that you invited me here. And if
we have other topics, I wouldlove to come back. Like, even
there's other coordinators thatwe can get together, even if
it's off camera. Love that,because I'm, like, I said, I'm
the kind of person that if yougive me a task, I'm going to
jump right into the deep end andtry to learn as much as I can.
(29:47):
You know, I never want to be ina meeting with a parent like
fumbling. I want to know. So I'mjust trying to learn every
aspect of it, even if it isn'tunder my at the moment, I'd
rather the more you know, themore you can...
Meghan Smallwood (29:59):
I hear ya.
Zabrina Kearns (30:01):
...so...
Meghan Smallwood (30:01):
I love being able to pick up little tidbits
here and there, because you justnever know you're gonna need
them.
Well, then, with that beingsaid, thank you, thank you...
Thank you so much. Zabrina, itwas lovely to meet you.
Patrick Cadigan (30:20):
We would love the information from this and
all our other discussions toreach as many families as
possible, and we need your helpto do that. So please like,
follow and share out ourpodcast. You can find our
conversations on all the majorpodcast platforms, including
Apple, Spotify, YouTube, music,and that's just naming a few. So
(30:41):
please share and share often.
You can always find the links tothe information from this
discussion in our show notes.
Check out our YouTube channel.
We've done some of the legworkfor you by curating videos of
topics that revolve aroundtransition. We have playlists
that cover guardianship,alternatives to guardianship
ABLE accounts. And there's stillmore to come as we're finding
(31:02):
videos that we think will bevaluable to use. So please be
sure to subscribe there as well.
And then finally, check out ourwebsite, which is full of
information and links toresources around the transition
process. So make sure to go towww postsecondarytransition,
(31:23):
com, we thank you so much forthe time that you've spent with
us, and look forward to talkingagain soon.
Meghan Smallwood (31:30):
Yes, definitely.
Welcome. This is the Post Secondary Transition
podcast. We have conversationsaround the ins and outs and
everything in between of thetransition process for families
of students with disabilities.
I'm one of the hosts. My name isMeghan Smallwood, and I am a
public school transitioncoordinator, and my co-host
is..?
Patrick Cadigan (00:17):
And I'm Patrick Cadigan, and I am also a public
school transition coordinator.
So here we are this week, we'regoing to continue our
conversation with Zabrina Kearnsfrom the start of our discussion
last week, you'll remember thatwe met Zabrina in a social media
group for transitioncoordinators, and she was happy
to meet with us and talk aboutsome of the things she's doing.
(00:37):
So we'll continue with thatdiscussion already in progress.
The other thing, though, that Ifind interesting is, is that
when having this discussion, andthis has been coming up quite a
bit lately, is the challenges,even post covid, just how that
whole like that whole event,decimated so much of what was
(01:04):
being done, or at least broughtit to a screeching halt. And
we're still feeling the effectsof that like we're still hearing
like stories families who weretalking about, you know, just
roadblocks that they keeprunning into, or funding issues
or stuff. And a lot of it comesback to being, you know, that
they're saying that covid had aneffect on that,
Zabrina Kearns (01:24):
Yeah. I mean, that definitely was the case.
Immediately after, it was veryhard to find job sites that
would take us on internships,yeah, but now we're, I mean, I
think we have somewhere between20 and 25 business partners in
the immediate area here that ourparticipants rotate through. But
(01:46):
that could be a little bitchallenging in itself too,
because my participants, who arevery successful, the parents,
automatically assume like thatthe place they're going to work,
right? So I think some of mynext steps are learning that
third year. So my students whoare graduating, what does that
third year look like? Can westart fading your job coach, and
(02:10):
can we start placing you at aninternship site that's not in
our bag of tricks, but is morein line with what you see
yourself doing.
Meghan Smallwood (02:22):
We've had all that too. I know when they've
been doing so well, or, like Isaid, when they go self
directed, and the families arelike, Well, where can they go
volunteer? Can they continue tovolunteer here? We're like,
Well, I mean, we have so manyother students. We want to
volunteer too. We don't want tojust, all, you know, taken away.
But I get where they're comingfrom.
Zabrina Kearns (02:40):
Definitely, especially because you've worked
so hard to build a rapport...
Meghan Smallwood (02:43):
Right, right.
Zabrina Kearns (02:44):
...but that's really one of my next goals, is,
how can I, you know, and I don'tknow what your students to staff
ratio is, but you know, we don'tnecessarily always have the
luxury of either sending one,you know, one to one out. I
mean, I do. I it's usually twoto one here, and I do have many
(03:05):
participants who can go out bythemselves, and I will
intentionally send them to myplaces where the owner of the
business is a built in jobcoach. Like, I have places here
who just get it. They are ourkindred spirits, and they're
like, I've got this. You don'tneed a coach here. And they're
taking data for us and giving usfeedback. And then we'll have
(03:28):
coaches come in sporadically toget some data, of course, and
then to have conversations. Andthen myself, I go in, our
behaviors still go in. But Ihave a couple of sites here that
are just like, Nope, weunderstand. So if I can make
more business partners likethat, then yes, our students who
(03:49):
are leaving and exiting wouldhave greater opportunity to
potentially get hired, right?
Also, and I don't know if yourun into this issue, it's
twofold, right? It's we'rereally trying to teach you these
entry level soft skill, right?
Professionalism, how to interactwith colleagues, how to interact
(04:09):
with customers, how to dressappropriately for work, taking
less breaks, right? That's kindof our Mo is not necessarily
that you're walking in andlearning how to take an engine
apart. Yes, right? So it's not,you know, when we talk about
(04:29):
work based learning, it's reallythose soft skills, yep, and I
have had students who are verycareer tracked, and that's a
whole nother conversation.
Meghan Smallwood (04:40):
Yeah, that.
That is a conversation we havewith a lot of parents. When we
approach them with our workprogram out in the community,
and they see some of the jobs,and right away they're like,
Well, I don't want my child outthere cleaning. I don't want
them working here. So we have togo into the explanation about,
well, they've never had a job.
Think about when you were 16.
You didn't start out in yourcareer field. You had to learn
(05:01):
what it was like to have a joband all those soft skills. So
that's what we're aiming to do,you know, and work our way up to
building to that career. Butsome parents, I think, have a
hard time with that.
Zabrina Kearns (05:14):
I mean, my first job was sweeping floors at a
pizzeria and answering phones,right?
Meghan Smallwood (05:19):
Exactly. Yeah.
Zabrina Kearns (05:20):
And the beauty of like, I can sometimes find
myself stressed about our 13week rotation, because it's to
change like, you know, 14 plusmy 620, 2323 students every 13
weeks are rotating to new jobs,right? There's like, holy
(05:41):
smokes. How am I going to dothis factor? But then it's by
the time you graduate from us,you've had retail, pet care,
business settings, restaurantsettings, break that down into
fast food versus sit down likereally, getting a nice taste of
many industries. And you decide,okay, I really like that. I
(06:03):
hated that. This was had me onmy feet the whole time. This
one, oh, don't send me back to aplace where I have to have that
much, you know, communicationwith people stick me in the back
room. I like that better, youknow. And we're learning skill
sets and preferences and andthings like that. So if I have
(06:24):
participants here who aretelling me they're taking
classes at a community collegeat night, or they graduated high
school with certain certificatesbecause they went to, let's say,
a BOCES, or, you know, half dayHigh School, half day trade
school. Those are theparticipants that I am more
inclined to tailor what they'redoing. So for example, someone
(06:50):
here was pursuing their bakingcertificate at a community
college. So then I said, I willwork hard now to find you a more
tailored experience. It'ssomeone that I could send to a
job site solo, so I didn't needa coach there all the time. And
you're putting in effort outsideof here to craft, you know, hone
(07:13):
in on your skill. But my jobcoach is not going to be able to
teach you how to ice cupcakes,right? Or, you know what I'm
saying, like, and then anotherparticipant who was took, like,
video editing courses. Sobecause of that, and because he
continued to pursue it, I wasable to one of his work based
learning, was with a localvideography company, and he
(07:37):
happened to be the one whofilmed our promo video for our
18 to 21 program. But that waschallenging, because even with
that, a lot of his experiencewas driven by me. So I kept
coming up with, what could we donext? You know, we were even
shooting commercials for a lotof the other sites for their
social media. But, you know, I'mwilling to get more creative and
(08:01):
put that kind of effort in whenthe student and family are
simultaneously enrolling them incourses outside of here, I know
that you're very driven in thatcareer. You know what I mean?
You can't just come and say,like, I want to be a voice
actor.
Patrick Cadigan (08:18):
I want to stream on YouTube, okay.
Zabrina Kearns (08:20):
Right, job coach here, and what we're we don't
have the capacity to teach youthat kind of nuanced skill. But
if you're learning it outside ofhere, and you want me to now
marry that with my coaching, andI can give you a coach that it's
different than what I can'ttailor it to that degree, to
(08:41):
every single participant.
That's...
Meghan Smallwood (08:43):
Right, no, that makes perfect sense. And,
and I think, you know, it showsthe dedication, and they really
are, have the drive, you know,it's not just, I feel like a lot
of times we hear when they comein at 14, they they're going to
do this, they're going to go andbe a doctor, like, well, have
they shown an interest in that?
You know? And you come to findout, no, not really. So, yeah.
Zabrina Kearns (09:03):
Right, well, especially at 14, I mean, your
career that happens is, and he'sgot, like, a laundry list of and
I'm sure that's going to change15 times before he graduates.
Meghan Smallwood (09:14):
Exactly as I would hope it should, because
every year, you learn a newskill set, or you're exposed to
a new air, you know, job, andyou discover something more you
like or you didn't like, I mean,and that's why I told the
families, like, you know, we dointerest inventories, and
they're like, Well, I've neverseen them show an interest in
working with animals. And I waslike, well, that's why we try
it, because firsthand, we'll seefor real. Did they really enjoy
(09:37):
doing this? Or did they get inthere and they're like, No, not
for me. So it's just a lot ofthings that go into it, but the
parent and the student need tobe open to that experience.
Patrick Cadigan (09:50):
And then Sabrina, when you so playing off
of that, when you arecommunicating with families, or
like, when very early on in theprocess. This as you are
learning both the student andthe families. How do you
communicate to them yourexpectations or what you I
guess, how do you, how do youdefine your job to the families
(10:14):
that you're about to work with?
Zabrina Kearns (10:16):
Hmm, well, again, we're taking it from the
lens of like, my role as yourwork based learning supervisor
over the course of these nextfew years is to open doors for
you to as many career clusters.
That's what it's called in NewJersey, career clusters as
possible. So you can begin tonarrow down which of those
(10:37):
clusters is most appealing foryou, career wise, and then
simultaneously, it's to teachyou the readiness skills to be a
great employee. And we'll talk alot about what, what being a
great employee looks like. Sothat's when I'm wearing that
hat, when I'm wearing thetransition coordinator hat. And
(10:59):
I need to get this quote becauseI just actually put it on my
LinkedIn. But part of mycoursework in one of my classes
at the University of Kansas,they said our job at transition
coordinators is to help youdesign a life that others envy.
And I I just that quote justmakes me feel so good inside,
(11:21):
right? Like, what if you were tojust you were to tell people,
what is your ideal life? What issomeone's ideal life? It's
having family around you thatyou connect with. It's having a
group of friends. It's maybevolunteering in your community
and feeling satisfied with workand feeling like you're
(11:41):
contributing, making acontribution, so I like that.
Yeah, right. So as transitioncoordinator, I have now firmly
stated that my role is, when yougraduate here, we want you to
have a life that other peoplewould envy, like, Wow, good
Sabrina. She's got it going on.
She's got, she loves, you know,she has relationships, you know,
(12:07):
whatever that looks like, herfriends, her family, her kids.
She's giving back to hercommunity, whatever that looks
like. And she's, she's makingher mark, whatever that looks so
and for our students, obviouslythat's going to look very
different. So I think that evenif you you know we sometimes
look like, Oh, they're not goingto have a career. Ultimately,
(12:30):
we're going program route. Wedon't have to look at that like,
right? No, I'm still doingthings in other aspects of my
life where maybe I'mcontributing. So at my day
program, I might be on thereceiving end, and I'm a taker,
but in the community, I'mvolunteering for dog shelter or
I'm volunteering for my localfood pantry. So there's ways
(12:53):
that I can still be acontributor...
Meghan Smallwood (12:57):
An active participant in the community,
yep. Yeah, that's what we have.
We follow the charting, the lifecourse. That's been some new
framework that the state ofMaryland, you know, especially
for those going self directed,but for anyone as they're
planning to move forward, thatwe've encouraged our families.
And we have a woman whose sonwent through our county, and she
always phrased that, I lovethis. It's, you know, what's
(13:19):
your good life look like, andit's going to be different from,
you know, this person's goodlife, but what's important to
them? And keep that in mind, andlike, not just from one person,
it's from all these differentpeople in their lives,
contributing to what their goodlife may look like. But it just
makes it puts in perspective,because I feel like we get so
(13:41):
wrapped up in they need to work,they need to do this, they need
to do that. But like you said,it's so it's so dependent on the
person and what's important tothem, and we have to remember
that as we plan.
Zabrina Kearns (13:55):
I also, in addition to my work here in the
school district, I work for anagency, and rooted in ABA
therapy, so many of thesestudents, or learners, as we
call them, there are gettingtherapy in home. And my boss
recently approached me and said,You know, I see what you're
doing in your school district. Iwould love to extend our
(14:18):
services to 21 and beyond now,so I have taken on the role as
our adult Director of AdultServices for that agency. And
when I just met with our staff,I really encourage them. You
know, a lot of times you'relike, I want to be with the
little ones, you know, so inyour preschool bubble, or you
(14:38):
get in your elementary schoolbubble, and you're very narrow,
visioned of this is a lifespandisability, and our little guys
grow up to be adults, so Iencourage them that even if they
have no desire to necessarilywork with the adult population
to get themselves. In a positionwhere they are meeting adults
(15:03):
with special needs, because Ithink it's important to see the
work that they're doing and thefoundation that they're laying
is contributing to who theseindividuals will be someday, you
know. So, you know, I said tothem, I'm like, I am going to
plug the 21 plus division nowfor our agency, but at the same
(15:25):
time, even if that's notnecessarily where your heart's
desire is, put yourself in asituation or a position. You
know, we have a lot of there'sagencies now here who are doing
social groups for adults, andit's really cool. I'm like, if
you can volunteer your time on aweekend just to get give
yourself exposure. And you know,I never thought that the 2018 to
(15:48):
21 population would be where Isettle, but it this has been
such a joy and a blessing in mylife. And I love like that, last
day is so bittersweet whenthey're leaving us, you know...
Yeah.
...but to see how far they'vecome, even in just three years.
Meghan Smallwood (16:05):
And I'm sure they still keep in touch with
you?
Zabrina Kearns (16:07):
They do. We just went the New York Giants just
did Fan-Fest Friday night, and Isaw two of my graduates.
Meghan Smallwood (16:15):
Oh, that's awesome.
Zabrina Kearns (16:16):
Oh my gosh.
Like, what are you doing? Whatare you up to? Like, so excited
to see you here. And...
Oh, that's so cool.
...the funniest part. Is whenthese guys are like, I'm turning
21 I'm having my first beer. I'mlike, you know, like of your
these students that you justdon't get out...
Meghan Smallwood (16:36):
Yes, many that leave, and they're like, Okay,
once I turn 21 we're being goingto go and be friends on
Facebook.
Zabrina Ke (16:44):
Right......navigate.
Patrick Cadigan (16:45):
If you can articulate what do you see as
the biggest benefits to yourjob?
Zabrina Kearns (16:50):
For my students?
Patrick Cadigan (16:52):
For you actually. From looking at it,
from the job.
Zabrina Kearns (16:57):
The biggest benefits? Well, I don't know
this is going to sound strange,I guess, but I think it's taught
me, it's actually helped me inmy own life, because I have I
chuckle sometimes when I'm doingsome of my own adulting and I'm
(17:17):
like, girl, you need to practicewhat you preach, right? So here
we're like, you know, use yourGoogle Calendar and time
management and budgeting, andthen in my own life, when maybe
I'm dropping the ball in some ofthose areas, I've actually, you
know, put my own teacher hatback on. And I'm like, All
(17:39):
right, maybe this is an areateacher, Sabrina, can help real
life, Sabrina, you know, so ifanything in my personal life,
it's reminded me that, you know,life is hard not having a
disability, right? Like we haveso many responsibilities,
(18:00):
there's so many things tonavigate as an adult, everything
from social interactions toholding down a career and being
a parent and juggling all thesehats that we wear and we do put
really high expectations on, Ithink just students in general,
and then our Students withdisabilities are navigating
(18:21):
another whole layer of that. Soif anything, it's shown me the
areas in my life where maybe Ipersonally need to step up, and
then it's shown me areas where Ineed to show myself a little
grace, and my students a littlegrace, that it's, you know, it's
okay to make mistakes. We'rehere to help them course
(18:43):
correct. And I thank God that Ihave really good friends in my
life who want me course correctwhen needed.
Patrick Cadigan (18:52):
Good deal. And then now what about, what are
the most challenging aspects ofthe job?
Zabrina Kearns (18:57):
I would say that whole when it comes time to the
baton passing is, you know, I,I'm gonna be very blunt. I saw
someone posted in one of ourgroups. I don't know which group
we actually met in, because I'min a few it was a teacher aide,
and she wrote, oh, ourtransition coordinator dropped
(19:18):
the ball because this kidgraduated and didn't have a job,
and I was like, Oh, ouch, rightnow, it wasn't me she was
talking about. I didn't know whothis girl was, but I'm like, you
could say that about me, thatI've had students leave here and
they didn't have a job when theyleft, but I don't know if you
understand all of the variablesthat go I have parents who flat
(19:40):
out told me, I think yourprogram's great, and I love that
they're doing work basedlearning, but I have no
intentions of them working whenthey leave here flat out now my
aide might not know that,because it's kind of none of
their business, right? We sharesome information on a need to
know basis. They're not sittingin all of the IEP meetings what
the family wants and desires interms of. What their medical
benefit is, or whatever it ispersonal that they may not work
(20:04):
after. You know, I don't want tosay like this. The only phrase I
could think of is like, youcould lead a horse to water, but
you can't make them drink. Idon't that's necessarily the
kindest or most appropriatephrase in this statement. But
like, if we're giving you allthe tools and all the
connections and you opt not touse them, it could still look,
(20:28):
at the end of the day that I, asthe transition coordinator,
dropped the ball, didn't do myjob right? The other really
challenging thing for me is I'mlearning ddd and DVRS and what
they offer. I just happen to bea transition coordinator who has
a son with an IEP. So what Ihave done Now, mind you, his
(20:52):
functioning level issignificantly higher than my
students here. However, Idecided at age 14 for him to
register to DVRS, because youcan do the Pre-ETS, the
pre-employment transitionservices. And I did it just to
see what it was like on theparent side. The turnaround time
as slow as everyone's tellingme, it actually wasn't. I got
(21:14):
the letter was four weeks to theday, then we turned it in. My
appointment was two weeks afterthat. DVRS is actually hunting
me down because I haven't had afew minutes, because I'm moving
to connect with them. So I'mfinding that all the kind of
rumors that I heard about DVRSto date are not accurate. Now,
are they on top of me becausethey know my role as an
(21:37):
educator? I don't know. I can'tanswer that. But learning, I
would say challenge number twois learning, um, DDD and DVRS,
what exactly they offer, whatages you're allowed to have
access to, and things like that,and then those limitations of
(21:58):
your benefits...
Meghan Smallwood (21:59):
Yeah.
Zabrina Kearns (22:00):
...well, we're teaching you all these great
work skills, but then you canonly work so much.
Meghan Smallwood (22:04):
You can only work, yeah.
Zabrina Kearns (22:05):
...could lose your benefits.
Meghan Smallwood (22:07):
So for those, you said the case managers that
aren't in like, you know, thestudents who aren't in the 18 to
21 program, but they have casemanagers in the school who kind
of also act as the transitioncoordinator or person for them.
What kind of do they get anytraining on DVRS or DDD, to know
what to tell families.
Zabrina Kearns (22:26):
I don't know truthfully, that those students
are accessing or, I mean,they're told about it, but I
think in their head, they'relike, Oh, we definitely don't
need DDD. But I don't know thatDVRS is being promoted as much
as maybe it should be.
Meghan Smallwood (22:44):
Yeah.
Zabrina Kearns (22:45):
Because even in some of the trainings that I've
been to like I've learned theycan even help with college,
college tuition could be paid ifyou need help or accessing
special education services. AndI don't think many people know
about...
Meghan Smallwood (23:03):
Yeah.
Zabrina Kearns (23:03):
...perks.
Meghan Smallwood (23:04):
That's similar. So ours is, is called
DORS, the Division ofRehabilitation Services; that's
our DVRS. And I would say thesame. It's not they're just
notoriously been thought of asinconsistent with communication,
which, I think it varies too,depending on how on top of it
you stay, or, you know, thecoordinator or the counselor you
have, but ultimately, they offera great amount of things, but I
(23:28):
don't think it's taken advantageof enough by students and
families.
Zabrina Kearns (23:33):
Right? And then the other blurry line, which is
maybe something you can educateme on, is we do well, you said
you don't really have alternateprograms, like, do you have
Project SEARCH?
Meghan Smallwood (23:43):
We do have Project SEARCH, yes.
Zabrina Kearns (23:45):
So we have Project SEARCH, and we also have
another program here, and it'sthe big question of the day is,
who funds that? So we have aparticipant, let's say who's
maybe a little bit beyondoffering, but they they want to
go to one of those otherprograms who's paying for that
(24:08):
ultimately, gotcha right? Ifyou're if you're functioning at
a level that they basicallysupersedes what we're offering,
you're ready to work. You'reready to take college classes,
but you're 19 or 20, you'retechnically allowed with us till
you're 21 you could start thatprogram early. Where does the
(24:31):
funding come from?
Meghan Smallwood (24:33):
Yeah, yeah, that's interesting. Yeah.
Project SEARCH is the program inour in our county that is, like,
considered top tier forindependence, and like, you
know, we only have 12 spots, butthey have to be DORS and DDA
eligible, or DVRS and DDDeligible.
Zabrina Kearns (24:55):
Does your district pay for Project SEARCH
kids or DVRS is paying...paying?
Meghan Smallwood (25:00):
They're still technically in the school
system, so the district would bepaying it, because DDA would not
kick in until 21 and I thinkDORS is just, they just have to
be eligible. But I wish we hadmore options than just that. You
know, it's, I think, of all thestudents we have. And I wish
there was other programmingoptions, alternative options
(25:21):
before 21.
Zabrina Kearns (25:22):
I know, after starting this career,
specifically with transition, myheart and I know it's going to
happen someday. I'm just not ina position at this moment like I
really want to start my own...
Meghan Smallwood (25:34):
Yeah.
Zabrina Kearns (25:34):
...post-21...
Meghan Smallwood (25:36):
Oh, there's a couple transition coordinators I
have joked about that. That'llbe our retirement gig.
Zabrina Kearns (25:40):
Right? Let me add one more thing to my three
job titles and the agency I'mworking, but I just see such a
need, especially for the graykids, right?
Meghan Smallwood (25:52):
Yes.
Zabrina Kearns (25:53):
Not quite a day program...
...uh, you knowcolumn and you're not quite the
Meghan Smallwood (25:56):
Yep.
full time work column.
Yep.
Zabrina Kearns (26:04):
Who are you?
Meghan Smallwood (26:04):
Those tweeners.
Zabrina Kearns (26:05):
Right? How can we best support you? And that's
that is what DDD self directedis supposed to be, right? So
we're going to get you workingpart of your day. We're going to
get you out in the community,but that still requires, like, a
lot of manpower on mom anddad...
Meghan Smallwood (26:20):
Yes.
Zabrina Kearns (26:22):
...potentially not working, you know,
themselves.
Meghan Smallwood (26:24):
Yes.
Zabrina Kearns (26:26):
So I would love to be able to design something
that encompasses all of thosethings for you. Mom and Dad can
still live their lives and workand then this student, or
whatever we're calling them whenthey graduate, this young adult
kind of has the best of allworlds that we're offering you
(26:46):
while you're here, community,access, some kind of vocational
experience, and then access toyour community.
Meghan Smallwood (26:56):
Well, let me know when you get it sorted.
I will.
We'll copy your model.
Zabrina Kearns (27:02):
Yeah, you guys will be the first call, for
sure.
Meghan Smallwood (27:05):
Yeah,
Patrick Cadigan (27:05):
I can definitely throw out there that
this conversation is on a wholedifferent level, quite where I'm
at right now. As we were movinginto season three, when we did
the previous two seasons, I wasthe special educator. So I was
always positioning myself as thesurrogate for the family. I've
only been doing TransitionCoordination now as a job for
(27:29):
like, a couple of weeks. Andit's, there's, there was always
the the part that we talkedabout, and the part that I
thought, that I understood. Andthen now there's...
Zabrina Kearns (27:38):
This is my fourth year here. I mean, I'm
many years under my belt, likein general, but transition world
four years, and I feel like Ihave a lot to learn. I mean, I
only have two classes left in mygrad school for transition, and
I still feel like I have a lotto learn. And the you know, and
I will say the University ofKansas is doing amazing things,
(28:01):
amazing. And the state of NewJersey, when you sit in these
community of practices, alsotheir vision of what this should
look like is also amazing. Butthe vision and the application
are two different things, andtrying to work your best with
the budget that you have, thenumber of staff that you have,
(28:21):
all the moving parts that gointo what a day I mean, if I had
a camera following me around,you'd be like, how are you even
doing this? You know, becauseyou want everyone to have the
best experience possible, andthat takes a lot of people and a
lot of time and a lot ofresources.
Patrick Cadigan (28:39):
Well, and that's...
Meghan Smallwood (28:40):
Yeah.
Patrick Cadigan (28:40):
...where the individualization comes in,
because that's one of the otherchallenges in terms of just
transition in general. Andagain, it's something that I
feel like my world has opened upa bit in that regards, is that
Meghan has always saidtransition is so individualized,
and now I'm kind of like whatyou were talking about before.
(29:01):
I'm seeing it, and I'm watchingit, and I'm experiencing it all
now in real time. And it's like,oh man, how do you how do you
coordinate all of that?
Zabrina, wecan't. Thank you enough for...
Zabrina Kearns (29:11):
I agree,
Meghan Smallwood (29:15):
Yes.
Patrick Cadigan (29:15):
...taking the time out to talk with us. Like I
said, I'm gonna have to go backand listen to this four or five
times to, like, truly absorbeverything that you guys talked
about.
Zabrina Kearns (29:27):
I'm so happy that you invited me here. And if
we have other topics, I wouldlove to come back. Like, even
there's other coordinators thatwe can get together, even if
it's off camera. Love that,because I'm, like, I said, I'm
the kind of person that if yougive me a task, I'm going to
jump right into the deep end andtry to learn as much as I can.
(29:47):
You know, I never want to be ina meeting with a parent like
fumbling. I want to know. So I'mjust trying to learn every
aspect of it, even if it isn'tunder my at the moment, I'd
rather the more you know, themore you can...
Meghan Smallwood (29:59):
I hear ya.
Zabrina Kearns (30:01):
...so...
Meghan Smallwood (30:01):
I love being able to pick up little tidbits
here and there, because you justnever know you're gonna need
them.
Well, then, with that beingsaid, thank you, thank you...
Thank you so much. Zabrina, itwas lovely to meet you.
Patrick Cadigan (30:20):
We would love the information from this and
all our other discussions toreach as many families as
possible, and we need your helpto do that. So please like,
follow and share out ourpodcast. You can find our
conversations on all the majorpodcast platforms, including
Apple, Spotify, YouTube, music,and that's just naming a few. So
(30:41):
please share and share often.
You can always find the links tothe information from this
discussion in our show notes.
Check out our YouTube channel.
We've done some of the legworkfor you by curating videos of
topics that revolve aroundtransition. We have playlists
that cover guardianship,alternatives to guardianship
ABLE accounts. And there's stillmore to come as we're finding
(31:02):
videos that we think will bevaluable to use. So please be
sure to subscribe there as well.
And then finally, check out ourwebsite, which is full of
information and links toresources around the transition
process. So make sure to go towww postsecondarytransition,
(31:23):
com, we thank you so much forthe time that you've spent with
us, and look forward to talkingagain soon.
Meghan Smallwood (31:30):
Yes, definitely.
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