June 4, 2025 • 52 mins
A gentle voice with decades of wisdom, Mohamed Mousa reveals how his childhood experience of losing baby chicks in Egypt became the foundation for revolutionary animal welfare practices that transformed an entire industry.
From tending a small flock by the Nile River to implementing poultry management systems across the globe, Mohamed's 40-year journey contains profound lessons about leadership, compassion, and the unexpected connection between profitability and proper animal care. "Animal welfare is always a money maker for the business," he explains, challenging conventional thinking that treats ethics and economics as opposing forces.
Mohamed opens up about the mentors who shaped his philosophy—particularly Dr. Nagel, who shared knowledge with one condition: "You have to pass this to others." This commitment to knowledge transfer has become Mohamed's life mission. "I don't own this knowledge," he reflects. "It's borrowed information I have to lend to somebody else." His relationship with Herbruck's Farms owner Stephen Herbruck—founder of what is now Prism Controls—shows how visionary leadership can elevate entire organizations when values align.
Perhaps most powerful is Mohamed's approach to mistakes. Rather than seeing errors as termination-worthy offenses, he views them as "the best teaching moments ever." Through his own painful story of losing birds to a tripped breaker, he demonstrates how analyzing failures can lead to systemic improvements and deeper commitment.
For young professionals, Mohamed's message is clear: develop genuine passion for the animals, understand their needs deeply, build strong teams through listening, and recognize that food production carries responsibility to both animals and consumers. As he approaches his 72nd year with no retirement plans, his definition of purpose remains beautifully simple: "Life is about serving others."
Hosted by Brandon Mulnix - Director of Commercial Accounts - Prism Controls
The Poultry Leadership Podcast is only possible because of its sponsor, Prism Controls
Find out more about them at www.prismcontrols.com
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Episode Transcript
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Brandon Mulnix (00:27):
Welcome to the Poultry Leadership Podcast.
I'm your host, Brandon Mulnix.
On today's episode, in-house Ihave Mohamed Mousa from
Herbruck's Farms.
Mohamed is a legend in theindustry.
If you've been around for anylength of time, you've probably
had a very positive interactionwith Muhammad.
(00:49):
He has been working in thisindustry pretty much his whole
career, and what he's going tobring today is not only his
story but also some really greatadvice for leaders in the
industry.
Mohamed, welcome to the PoultryLeadership Podcast.
Mohamed Mousa (01:07):
Thank you.
I appreciate your inviting meto speak and I can tell you you
are the first one I agreed tospeak and you are a very, very
valuable person because whereyou are and where you come from,
and also for the relationshipwith Herbruck's.
Brandon Mulnix (01:24):
Thank you, Mohamed.
I really appreciate that.
Can you give the listeners whomay not know who you are a
little?
Mohamed Mousa (01:32):
bit background.
My name is Mohamed Mousa.
I am a native of Egypt.
I was born in very, very smallcommunity, about five homes next
to the Nile.
We had a farm and we had I amthe oldest on three boys and we
(01:52):
had old tractors and stufflaying around and the farm was
neglected.
Nobody was really taking careof it.
It was banana farm, oranges insome fields and so on, and my
family was in construction,steel construction.
So all what you see around theshop is welding machines and
(02:15):
things of that nature.
So I started when I was veryyoung, about four years old,
asking to get some gifts in mybirthday and I asked for some
chicken.
Got about a hundred of them,most of them died, and a lot of
story about that.
The guys in the shop felt sorryfor me and they made me a small
(02:38):
aviary system, you can believe.
But it had a drawer for themanure and I go every day take
the feed for the chicken,whatever I found in the house
and clean the manure.
And I learned that you cannotput the manure close to the
house.
So I had to take it away andput it beside the trees,
(03:00):
thinking that I took it awayfrom the house and later on I
learned that that's a fertilizer.
But I didn't know that.
Then, when I went to highschool and my father wanted me
to go to engineering school,that I can be the reign of the
(03:21):
company and take over.
I did not.
Ran of the company and takeover.
I did not.
And I went studied poultry andanimal production, genetic and a
few other things, construction.
Of course I had to study itbecause I didn't want to, but I
had to study it because youdon't get allowance and get
(03:41):
money unless you listen to that.
It helped me over the years,believe it or not, that now I
can understand how to buildchicken house, how to ventilate
it, how to do that.
I learned all of this notintentionally but because I was
ordered to do.
I started working in thepoultry business, started in
genetic company, then after thisgrandparent, then parent stock,
(04:03):
started in genetic company,then after this grandparent,
then parent stock, and I didthat for about 12 and a half
years.
Then after that I was runningaround the world.
Of course, if you are atechnical guy they tell you
where to go.
Didn't have too much wisdom, sowherever they send me I go and
(04:24):
I always go.
Get a guy and build a littlereputation of loving the chicken
, loving the animals, know howto get production and so on.
Even I slept with baby chicksso many nights in a bill of hay
and I didn't mind at all takinga shower with very cold garden
hose, sometimes in Saudi Arabiain these hot climates.
(04:46):
Anyhow, after that I got marriedand I have kids and I had to
choose between traveling andenjoying the other countries or
take care of the family, and ofcourse I choose the family.
And that's when I started asmall business in the country of
(05:08):
Iraq and because I was aforeigner, I had a big problem
with the rules and thegovernments and I took my money.
They kicked me out.
Then I had a job offer here inthe United States and I came in
to do genetic selection.
I didn't know if I wouldsucceed or not, but I did.
(05:31):
And after that went to take someclasses for DNA typing and my
professor, a great, great man,his name is Robert Washburn.
And Dr Washburn told me you'resmart, guy, but you are a dumb
professional.
So I said what you mean?
He said go in management.
(05:52):
We will soon have a high schoolkid with a computer.
He could do better than me andyou and that genetic thing you
are running behind.
And I I said okay, thank yousir, and I got the first job in
the layer industry in 1993.
And I am still doing it tillnow.
Brandon Mulnix (06:15):
And that was with which company in 1993?
.
Mohamed Mousa (06:19):
Was Eleanor Farms in Georgia and a lot's changed.
Brandon Mulnix (06:24):
Eleanor Farm is in Georgia and a lot's changed.
So, mohamed, not many peoplehave a story of being
multinational and getting all ofthese opportunities to learn,
because what I've learned fromyou is you like to learn.
Maybe not what you're told tolearn back in school, as you
said, but you learned.
But just in general, you're alifetime learner.
(06:44):
How has that lifetime learningcontinued after you got your
first management job?
Mohamed Mousa (06:50):
Well, I had management jobs before, but it
was not in the layer industry.
I had broiler breeders andgrandparent and I did some
genetic work with geneticselection against lymphoid
leucosis and other diseases.
Medics and others was causing alot of damage in the poultry
(07:11):
industry worldwide and I hadsuch great people to train me.
And I can mention many, many ofthem, but I will mention three
people whom had.
They are not living at thistime with us, but they live in
my heart.
One of them is Dr Twineco andhe was the president and top
(07:35):
veterinarian from what used tobe called Uribreed Nowadays it's
Hendrix Genetic.
And the other one is Dr Nageland he is from Germany and he
was a teacher and he taught mehow to teach and I will say
(07:57):
something about this man.
One day he told me I was askinga lot of questions and he told
me that he said I will tell youeverything under one condition.
And I said what is that?
He said you have to pass thisknowledge to others and I am
doing that now.
The third person his name isRick Berger and Rick Berger is
(08:21):
from Virginia and he was a toughboss, but he believed in me and
he gave me a lot of confidence,even when I did not know what I
need to do.
So I go to a farm and some,let's say, in Turkey, and I
don't know what I am looking at.
I am young, green, yes, have alot of knowledge in my head, but
(08:46):
I couldn't explain it and I goto the hotel room.
I call him Sometimes.
He answers, sometimes not, andhe sometimes leave me overnight
to grill my head a little bit tofind a book or something to
read.
We used to carry books with us.
Our internet was in a briefcase, you know and he answered me in
(09:10):
the morning.
He knows, of course, here I am,what time and all that, and he
tells me look into this, lookinto that, look into that.
And he ends his words to me byget those guys who are running
that farm and explain to themwhat I just told you, don't get
in trouble.
He used to end his advice bydon't get in trouble, and I
(09:35):
didn't know what it means.
You know, don't go to the barsand all of this stuff till he
explained it to me.
When I was married he said Ithink you know what I mean now.
That is the foundation Throughmy career.
I understand you are, as aleader, as good as your team and
you are as weak as your weakteam member.
(09:56):
So I spend a lot of timelooking for knowledge, ask
questions, get information andtrain the team that the team and
I can, as a leader, carry theresponsibility together and get
the best of both worlds theacademic side of things and also
the practical side.
Brandon Mulnix (10:17):
It's interesting you mentioned the word
foundation.
I mean foundation meanssomething that you plan on
building on.
I mean foundation meanssomething that you plan on
building on.
How have you continued to buildon that foundation,
specifically in the area ofteaching others?
Mohamed Mousa (10:33):
Every business has a capacity.
When I joined Herbruck's,horbrooks was a smaller company
and as the company grew I had toadd another team members.
But also I appreciateHerbrook's family, especially
Stephen Herbrook and Greg andHerb, for letting me do things
(10:56):
the way I thought it'sbeneficial to the company.
So I hire college graduates andeven if they don't know much
about egg layers and egg layerequipment and vaccination and
all those things, then we teachthat and when we start preparing
(11:19):
and training, you're notpreparing and trained for your
own good.
You are training and preparingfor the good of that person and
also for the future of thecompany, that the company can
have a way to grow and a way toserve the customers.
(11:39):
Because at the end of the day,even if we produce eggs or
produce broilers, we have acustomer we are serving and we
have to serve our customers verywell.
Brandon Mulnix (11:49):
With that growth you've affected a lot of people
, not just on your team, butalso a lot of the people that
I've heard from that know.
You know, musa, as you're wellknown in the industry, for
you've had an effect on vendors.
How do you translate leadershipfrom the farm into the vendors
(12:12):
that you've affected sopositively?
Mohamed Mousa (12:14):
The people whom you deal with, either inside the
company what I call it, yourstaff or the outside your
vendors whom supply you, or yoursupplier or supply chain, or
even people you talk to inacademic establishment, in
universities, like professors,let's say, and so on, you get a
(12:36):
certain level of humanityconnection.
You connect with those peoplein a level much higher and much
greater and much purer than thebusiness transaction.
And from my reading about thehuman ability to be above all
(12:56):
the money and the profit and allthose things, it's the guidance
which you come end of the dayand you say is everybody is
winning.
And I found out that this wayalso make the other person in
supply chain or vendor ormanufacturing of certain
(13:17):
material.
They give you the best advice,not only the best product, but
also the best advice.
The best advice, not only thebest product, but also the best
advice.
And through those years whichnow in the United States I've
been working for about 36 years,the friendship with people I
worked with from the time Istarted till now was still
(13:38):
connecting.
Most of them we send Christmascards to each other and ask
about our families and some ofthem I know, their wives and
their kids and so on.
The great philosopher, whom alot of people may don't know the
name very much and he was avery his name is Socrates and he
(14:01):
was always mixing betweenhumanity and action.
And our action is continue fromthe day you do it.
It lives with you the rest ofyour life.
And if that action and thatcommunication in a tender,
loving level you create ateamwork in your staff that they
(14:25):
in harmony, they work togetherfor the interest of the business
, but also they know how tocommunicate with the other
outside world for the best ofboth worlds.
That way created notintentionally because I didn't
know that's what the outcomewill be a very calm staff and
(14:46):
nobody say negative aboutsomebody else.
Everybody is trying to help andI directed all the energy from
the staff and myself and eventhe owners to serve the animals
and I came up with serving thebirds.
The other thing is animalwelfare.
As I said before.
(15:06):
You know I was a person, achild.
I have some baby chicks andmost of them died.
That creates in deep on me thecare of the animal because I
felt that I did not care aboutthose baby chicks even at the
childhood.
My mom have German parents andso on, mixed Italian and so on,
(15:31):
and she was very strong in herviews about things.
And when the chicks died, shejust sat me down in a kitchen
table and told me, if you tookcare of them they would be still
alive.
And I do that with what we donow in practice.
(15:51):
Relationships and friendshipstake the business to a higher
level than the money that runsaction.
Brandon Mulnix (15:58):
As you have these interactions with people,
you're a genuine human being,which is something that I've
been able to experience.
I had the pleasure of runninginto you at the airport and you
took the time to sit and mentorme a person that you knew of
through company that Prismcontrols, but I could tell you
(16:23):
were immediately into coach mode, into mentor mode, and it was
so inspiring in this industry offolks that you know, in the
busyness of travel you go to allkinds of events, you're asked
to do all these things, but youtook that time to invest in me
and then I think we even sattogether on the airplane.
The seats were next to eachother, which was such a blessing
(16:46):
.
So is that purposeful for you?
Mohamed Mousa (16:50):
Yes, you know, our knowledge and our ability is
because knowledge is not theonly thing.
It's how to deliver thatknowledge and how to send it to
the direction which it canbenefit others.
It's a kind of a gift.
You don't own it.
You know I don't own thisknowledge.
I don't own that.
(17:10):
All the people vested theirtime on me is borrowed
information.
I have to lend it to somebodyelse.
And remember what I was told byDr Nagel that yes, I'm going to
lend you this information butyou have to pass it to others.
But from my reading, the valueof any person decline with age
(17:38):
and power and retired and this,and that if you don't put that
money to benefit, I would sayhumanity.
But I really, really look forthe benefit of the birds.
I love the animals, I love thechicken and I know exactly
(17:59):
everything and how much theylabor every day to produce that
egg or to build meat for us toenjoy and so on.
And that knowledge it's foreverybody and it's not owned by
anybody.
Brandon Mulnix (18:14):
Sharing that knowledge.
It's not owned.
That is powerful.
That is something that so manypeople including myself at some
points feel that when I meetsomebody like you, I need to
talk, and I think what you'rereminding me in this is ask
questions and listen.
(18:35):
There's so many things you canlearn from others just by
shutting your mouth andlistening in a way that actually
you're going to learn something, and so I take that you know.
Thank you for the reminder inthat, because, again, we have
this knowledge.
I mean, the purpose of thispodcast is to share that
knowledge with the nextgeneration.
(18:56):
As you look at the nextgeneration, what encourages you?
Mohamed Mousa (19:02):
Okay, I mentioned to you that I was young one day
.
I am 71 and a half years oldnow.
Back then in early late 1970s,especially 1979 to 1983, I was
young and you will be surprisedto know that I was a hippie and
(19:23):
I was a member of a band.
We were playing music and wewere imitating the Beatles.
We did a lot of things whichwas not very good, because the
police used to come and chase usaway because we were making
noise in the middle of the night, early early.
I discovered that talking topeople and understanding where
(19:47):
they stand make you a betterperson, not only a better person
for the people, but a betterperson for yourself.
You know how to forgiveyourself when you make a mistake
and you admit it and alsotranslate that to the young
person.
When I went to do bigger rolesin the industry, I see that
(20:10):
person just got out from theuniversity, know very little.
I see myself in that person andI see myself not as I am today.
I see myself back then when Ididn't know what I'm doing and I
coach my team, the younggeneration leader.
Now that you always lend yourhand and your ability to the
(20:35):
young person coming out from theschool.
He or she can take thatfoundation and build on it and
they become very effective teamleaders and they will make the
operation to run just like anengine, every part of the engine
synchronized with the otherpart to bring that horsepower,
(20:59):
which is a company, business andbenefit every person Paycheck.
At the end of the day everybodybenefit.
But the big benefit from all ofthat that the animal welfare
for the chicken become not justa word or written plan.
(21:19):
It become a daily practice thatif somebody see a bird, let's
say hang in in the wire, veryquickly they go, take that bird,
they look at it and we createdsomething we call it a hospital
or resting area, take them awayfrom the general competition and
put them feed and water and allof that, that tender loving to
(21:44):
the chicken can also transfer tothat.
Young people coming up thatthey can future leaders in the
industry.
Brandon Mulnix (21:53):
I can tell you're passionate about the bird
.
I can see it in the way youtalk.
I have the pleasure of beingface-to-face with him and the
passion that he has for birdsand chickens and people.
You're blessed.
I mean, you see Gen 4 of theHerbrook family coming through,
as we call them and other folkscall them.
So I ask what encourages youabout them?
(22:15):
What is something that you'reworried about?
Mohamed Mousa (22:20):
First, I want to say that the young generation I
really believe strongly.
They have more resources thanwhat somebody like myself had.
They're much more intelligentin getting things done quicker
time, saving what I used to doin a day, I understand.
(22:42):
Right now they can do in fiveseconds.
And I give you an example if Iwant to look to a float layers
performance and I want to getmortality exhibit in houses and
all that, I used to have that ina card and you have to write it
down and you have to look atwhat I bought it and this and
that.
Well, today, then we went tothe Excel sheets and all that.
(23:04):
Well, today, you ask thequestion, you get the answer in
less than two seconds.
So they are smart, but theyneed the direction.
And there is one more thingwhich is very, very critical for
business.
Most of the people younggeneration now try to glide over
(23:26):
the effective line.
This is my analysis.
The effective line always iswhen you know the details and
you direct other people to payattention to the details.
This is life, animals.
This is not a piece ofmachinery.
You can't turn it off and thoseanimals 24 hours a day.
(23:48):
And to glide over thateffective line means that you
are missing something or youpush it to somebody else.
You shouldn't.
And my advice always to theyoung generation is it's your
responsibility, it's his, it'shis, it's everybody.
What I worry about them, it'sone thing, one item only, and
(24:15):
that item is much higherconfidence than understanding
the animal need.
The animal need cannot belooked at as he will take care
of it, it's okay, or any of that.
The animal need is the animalneed need to be specified, need
(24:37):
to be explained and need to befollowed.
And I am a board member withthe International Animal Welfare
Alliance and also I chair theLER subcommittee the animal
welfare.
It was on me before even Istart to go to university and
study because my failure early,early in age.
(25:00):
Animal welfare is always amoney maker for the business.
Because you have healthychicken, you have caring people
and you have a way to develop abitter practices.
Because you have healthychicken, you can do.
Because you have healthychicken, you can do a lot with
healthy chicken to get betterproduction.
(25:21):
You cannot do that withunhealthy birds.
Brandon Mulnix (25:25):
So you've been with Herbrooks since what year?
Mohamed Mousa (25:31):
2005, August 2005 .
I'm getting very close to 20years.
Brandon Mulnix (25:36):
Okay, so in that time you know, Herbrooks, from
my understanding, did a lot ofwork in understanding what a
healthy flock, healthy numbersof caged and then the numbers of
birds in cages, and reallyreally worked hard on those
those numbers.
What have you seen andexperienced as to how to really
(26:01):
focus on on on the bird and andwhat was that conversion like?
Because you started probablywith caged and and a certain
government regulation?
What does that evolution looklike?
Mohamed Mousa (26:13):
my background was , as I mentioned, is breeders
genetic and all those birds getput in floor or in slats.
We had some artificialinsemination, certain special
breeds which we had to make surethat we multiplied, and all of
(26:34):
that.
You put them in cages and of ofcourse, there is when you put a
test flock, you bend those andyou put.
In my time we used to put anumber and nowadays they are
putting a code that you can readwith a code reader.
Herb Brooks, before my time,was already understanding the
(26:56):
animal welfare.
The only thing I did that Iparticipated in it with the
employees.
I didn't leave it to theemployees only, I went there
with them and I implemented onething, and Stephen was the
champion on that I don't like tosee dead birds in the floor.
None, zero, no tolerance.
(27:19):
A dead bird must be respectedand put in a plastic bag.
And Herbrooks had crematoriesand if you take a bird to the
crematory you raise the value ofcaring about the animal because
it's not being put in the trashor something like that.
(27:40):
And I learned a lot fromStephen.
I learned a lot from what's inhis mind.
I used to talk to him and Gregwe talk about different things.
They say it a certain way and Igo do it another way, but in
the end it's in the interest ofthose animals.
(28:00):
I work also with othercompanies.
I work with Rose Acre and OhioFresh and other companies and
our industry blasts with goodleaders, regardless of the price
of eggs or this or that,Regardless the price of eggs or
this or that.
But the egg industry was a goodleading scientist whom the
(28:26):
scientific committee for UnitedEgg Producers created an
atmosphere for animal welfare.
Instead of it is geographicallyin one farm, it become industry
wide, Different levels, yes,but in the same time it took
over in the country and mypleasure to say that the young
(28:48):
generation coming out today theyfound it already and they are
adapting it and using it.
So what we did back then and itwas a conversation and it was is
it right, Is it not?
How many square inches?
How many of this, how many ofthat?
Today is a very stablefoundation.
It made from concrete right now, and every young person coming
(29:11):
out is building on it.
Did we do a good job?
I know to be determined.
You know it's a.
Do we know exactly what'sanimal welfare supposed to be?
Well, maybe some of us say yes,I know.
And some of us say, well, itdoesn't pay and this and that,
(29:32):
but what it is is a verypowerful direction for the young
generation to develop, a goodway to serve for those animals
and to produce food not producedunder stress.
Stressed animals is going totaste completely different in
their product than animal is notstressed.
Brandon Mulnix (29:56):
Interesting then , animal is not stressed.
Interesting, I mean to see thatyou know the foundation's been
set.
You have evolved through yourcareer and I like to ask the
question you mentioned.
As a kid a pivotal moment waswhen you lost the birds.
That set your foundation ofvaluing the bird.
Is there another pivotal momentwhere maybe you made a mistake,
(30:21):
had something happen thatreally changed you that you
would share, that could helpmaybe somebody else not do the
same thing you did?
Mohamed Mousa (30:31):
Yes, many of them .
So I will mention a few and Imentioned some about this that
the team have to work together.
I was overseeing a flock ofbreeder in Turkey, up in a
mountain, and the baby chickswas coming from Holland, from
(30:51):
the Netherlands, and I supposedto be in the plane.
It's a charter flight and it'snot very comfortable, but you
got to be in it.
I went late about 10 minutesand the plane they did not.
I seen the plane in a tarmacbut they did not let me get in.
So I went, I booked a ticketand that, so I was late.
(31:13):
I went about eight hours later.
I went about eight hours later.
The people home in the farm.
I was assured that they will do.
I called and I left a messagewith somebody.
You know the phone was only inthe office, so you leave a
message and somebody take it tothe field.
And those were 7,000 birds Iremember the number, and the
(31:37):
males is separate from thefemales and the instruction
would said both the malesseparate and you make it, get
cardboard and do this and dothat and put the brooder in this
height and feed, and all theregular instruction which we had
(31:58):
written.
And they already received thatbefore that, but it goes with
every flaw.
And inside one from thosepallets which they have the
boxes stacked was a box with allthe vaccine which was going to
be applied for those birds,because I went late.
Even we told them there is abox in there and it has a
(32:19):
vaccine in it.
The person who was dealing withall of this was a truck driver,
so the first thing he did hetook that his loading, you know,
from the airport.
He found that box, he took itand he put it with him in the
cabin.
Right or wrong.
There is papers in therewritten in instruction one, two,
(32:42):
three, four, anyhow.
It was my mistake because I didnot stable or tape those papers
.
So the papers was left in thecheckbox In the field.
When the chicks arrived inthere, they put them in and they
did the water, the feed and allthat stuff and they were
(33:02):
thinking I am coming back in inan hour, let's say, or so.
So I went straight from theairport to the farm.
I found no vaccine at that.
Coccidiosis vaccine was notavailable, was not even invented
.
So we used to go in and try tomake sure that we have some
(33:27):
umbrella, and we do this, youknow, certain seven days later
and so on, or leave the birds toget the seeds then after
they're treated, and so on.
So I found no vaccine.
Instead of staying in the farm,I went to look for the vaccine,
and that's a mistake.
(33:49):
But the time I went back wefound the vaccine box is in the
cab.
After I think it was 12 hours orso hot days, we went back to
the farm, myself and the farmmanager which I went.
I picked him up from his home.
During that period theventilation breaker was tripped
(34:16):
and the temperature, I think,was almost 40 degrees centigrade
and the brooders is running.
I do not know when thishappened exactly, we could not
track it, but I found about 60%of the baby chicks is dead.
I blamed myself for that and Itook the responsibility and I
(34:39):
was working for a great, greatman.
When I called him and I told himthe story and I said that
statement, I said Rick, I don'tmake too much money, but this is
my mistake and I will pay forit.
Please cut 25% every month.
(35:02):
I used to get paid per monthand he said I am going to cut
everything.
You're not going to get a pennyuntil you pay for the checks.
And he said ha ha ha.
And I didn't know what he meant.
And he said three days from nowyou're going to get the balance
(35:23):
, because we were guaranteedseven days.
He sent the baby checks and Iwas so afraid that something
happened and those birds die.
I stayed 10 days in thatchicken house, day and night,
taking shower by a water hose.
That's a mistake.
(35:44):
I just hang in.
I didn't think.
I did not think can I stayanother hour?
I immediately turn around and Idid not pay attention to what's
inside the chicken house.
Brandon Mulnix (35:57):
It's interesting because that mistake is
something that you'll neverforget and you shared, like it
happened yesterday, and yet yousee business owners and business
managers fire people overmaking a mistake like that.
Mohamed Mousa (36:17):
I think this is short-sighted, because when a
person, young or old, makes amistake, it's not intentionally,
it's the attention of thatmoment went somewhere else.
I want to tell you about thatincident that you cannot get
that vaccine from anywhere elseand at that time we had a
(36:39):
contract with Intervet.
Intervet puts the packettogether, they carry it to the
airport, one from the companyputs it in and it goes Making
mistakes.
Sometimes it's the bestteaching moment for anybody, but
it needs to be addressed,highlighted and I would add to
(37:00):
any manager out there nicely,and I'm going to ask every
person in a leadership work withthe chicken Never tell one from
your team member you are firedbecause he made a mistake or she
made a mistake.
Your team member you are firedbecause he made a mistake or she
(37:21):
made a mistake.
Never put them in an easebecause you ask them something
and, intentionally or notintentionally, it did not happen
exactly as you want.
If you explain things to peopleand you don't write it down,
there is some steps is going tobe missing and it's not that
personal mistake, it's your ownmistake because you did not
(37:41):
write it down.
All of us make mistakes, evenin our personal life and
training a person after made amistake.
It's the best teaching momentever.
Brandon Mulnix (37:54):
The reception is almost 100% ever, the reception
is always almost 100.
I've found in managing peopleover the years that if it truly
was an unintentional mistake, itis that best learning
opportunity and they may neverdo that ever again if it's in
their power.
There are mistakes systems, youknow, as as a controls company,
(38:17):
I mean we try to prevent everyhuman mistake that's imaginable
out there.
Because somebody made thatmistake of the breaker tripping
and no alarm.
Back then to say, hey, there'sno power to this.
And what did that change overtime was, hey, we probably
should put a monitor on thepower and if it goes out, we
(38:42):
alarm somebody.
We tell them Because humans,there was failure points all
along there.
But yet it's one of thosethings that, as leaders, we
don't look at the mistake, asalways the person, but the
process.
What could we do as leaders tokeep that from happening again?
Because it's going to happenagain if we don't do something
(39:05):
about it.
And that's On leaders.
When something happens thesecond time, that's on leaders,
every single time.
Mohamed Mousa (39:13):
Comment on that.
That incident was a breaker.
It's not only put me internallyas a person failed to care of
the animals.
I did not care how much it didcost, but I see baby chicks in
front of me and I was very movedby that.
(39:33):
So after we got the other birdsand we put them in, I sit down
and it's a pail of hay they get.
They don't have wood shaving,so they had hay and I was
sitting in it and I said what Ineed to do now and my eyes went
(39:54):
to the breaker box.
I knew electric a little bit soI asked if they have new breaker
and they said no.
I said do you have electrician?
And they said yes, but he's somany miles away, kilometers away
.
I said can you ask him to comehere?
I'm not leaving, I'm staying,because I was afraid that that
(40:14):
breaker trip again.
Then the electrician came inand he said oh, that's too much
load in one breaker, we have toseparate them.
And that solved the problem.
He put three breakers in therebecause when everything runs, it
(40:34):
was overloading that breaker.
So if you put a new breaker,it's just a matter of time in
that heat which is going to tripagain.
And this happened.
We talk about mistakes here.
I'm not understanding thetimetable.
This was in the third day thatI thought about it, and if I was
not sitting in the front ofthat breaker box I may not know
(40:55):
it.
My advice always is don't leavethe place till you analyze the
problem, and I do that.
I can sit in a chicken housefor hours because I don't know
what I'm looking at.
Brandon Mulnix (41:07):
As you get to that point, you're 71 years old.
Most people retire at 63, 65years old.
What kept you going for thelast six to eight years?
Mohamed Mousa (41:22):
My love to my profession and my love to my
team and the owner of thecompany, I will not be able to
just give Herbrooke's familytheir deserved credit, not only
with me but with everybody whoworks there, and you are from
the community and you know whatthey do.
(41:43):
My love to the animals hasalways derived me to say what I
can do better, not only for theanimals, but how we can reduce
mortality, how we can improveproductivity, how we can retain
feeders longer.
There is a lot of science andresearch out there.
There is tons of universitiesputs scientific data out and I
(42:07):
took it in my own that I am thatconduit that I can bring some
from that to the team.
Sometimes we succeed, sometimesnot, but in the same time, if
you work on it and you get thehelp from the scientific
community and transfer this toyour team as practice, you can
(42:27):
make wonders.
And I give you a little examplethe company I'm working for now,
herb Brooks Boulder Ranch, isthe only company is MS and MG
negative, no vaccine.
It didn't happen because I wantto.
It happened because we have agood team, we have good practice
, we have good owners, we haveowners value the employees but
(42:50):
value the customer.
Owners, value the employees,but value the customer where the
egg goes.
That customer gets a lot ofattention from our owners and
our team members and it's notone time, it's every day, every
meeting that the customer in inthe center of the discussion,
(43:11):
equally with the animals and theanimal welfare how we feed the
birds right, how we take care ofthem, how we ventilate them.
Also the sense of community.
You want to make sure that youare not creating a bad odor and
spread all over the place.
You want to make sure that youare friendly for the community
(43:34):
and you address their need evenbefore they mention it or they
complain about it.
And I give that credit toStephen Herbrook.
Stephen used to put that rightin front of us all the time and
he's in a better place than I am.
If he see a fly, one fly in hiscar he should call me and call
(43:59):
Greg and call this and call thatand say there's flies out there
, one, one fly.
He was a visionary man lookingfor excellency in his operation
and his business and serving thecustomer and taking care of the
animals and I can talk a lotabout him because I used to sit
(44:20):
with him all the time.
He trusted me with my nonsensestuff sometimes, which I used to
say about making the feed alittle bit more expensive, or we
do this or we do that, orcleaning this or doing I'll tell
you a lot of other things, butthat man, he was a true poultry
(44:41):
leader.
He understood how he can makesomebody like me and others to
bring what's in them to servethe animal and customers.
I am indebted to him.
Brandon Mulnix (44:56):
The rest of my life and for you listeners that
don't know, Stephen herbrook isthe founder of poultry
management systems, which is nowprison controls, and so the
precision, the value of the bird, the value of the bird, the
value of the customer, and allof that is what his legacy
(45:19):
continues to spread.
As your reflection of that, I'mso glad to actually get to hear
this, because you knowStephen's at a point where some
of this is really he's not ableto share this.
Mohamed Mousa (45:32):
He also served the industry.
He served in United EggProducer with his very low voice
.
He can bring wisdom.
In a meeting people shouting,he can bring that wisdom and
make that point which they arecommunicating and disagreement
(45:53):
about.
He can get that point to alevel of calmness that will be
accepted.
I learned this from him.
Brandon Mulnix (46:05):
I could talk with you all day and our
listeners probably could listento you all day, but I want to
respect your time all day, andour listeners probably could
listen to you all day, but Iwant to respect your time.
Mohamed Mousa (46:14):
what's what is one thing that you have to share
with the next generation thatwe haven't talked about yet I am
very excited and very happy tosee the next generation, the
people who are interested andhave a high level of learning
(46:37):
about how to run a company, havelive animals in it.
And I will say this for iglearsand broiler breeders and to
other people whom I am helpingoutside the United States, to
other people whom I am helpingoutside the United States Give
the animals your love and try toknow more about them and to try
(47:00):
to be not above the effectivelion or the needed lion.
Get back to the details.
Respect highly that thoseanimals need a high level of
care in every direction, if it'sfeed, temperature, water, water
quality, anything, litter, goodrunning equipment, all of that.
(47:23):
But also to your team member.
If you are a leader, your teammember is the tool, is the help,
is an instrument which makesthe wheel turn.
(47:44):
Always give them the advice andalways listen to them when they
tell you something, even ifit's not important in your mind.
Later you're going to thinkthat that person, when you
listen to him, will come to youlater with a bitter idea, with a
correction, with somethingyou're not looking to correct
because you can see everythingyourself.
And also I advise the younggeneration to have passion to
(48:07):
the animal welfare and tounderstand the birds have
feeling and they are serving usas food.
And the other one we areproducing food not for
decoration, this is for humanconsumption, which my family,
your family, your grandson, yourgranddaughter, your elderly.
(48:31):
Food safety is very, verycritical and if you don't know
it 100%, you better read andfound it, because all the
information is out there.
And I want to say something tothe scientific community in the
United States, united Kingdom,netherlands, germany, italy, the
people I was associated with.
(48:52):
They invest in young generationand I tell them I take my hat
off for all the work you do,which made somebody like myself
in the level I am.
That can also go to the younggeneration and they can be a
better poultry man, bettermanagers and better coaching,
(49:17):
preparing the new generation asI did.
Brandon Mulnix (49:21):
Thank you, Well, mohamed Mousa, thank you for
your years of service.
I've only got to experiencejust a few of them, and I've
seen just what a blessing you'vebeen to the industry, and I
know that as long as there'sbreath in your lungs, you're
going to be caring for the bird.
There's no retirement that willkeep you away from this
(49:43):
industry.
Mohamed Mousa (49:45):
I don't have a plan for retirement.
If I exit where I am now, I amjust going to do something else.
But I am eager to serve, small,big.
I am one of the people whom youcan say life is about serving
others.
Brandon Mulnix (50:06):
So much wisdom, so much heart, even with a
lawnmower in the background,even with tapping on the tables
everything that means we putheart into this podcast for you
Listeners.
This is an episode I want todefinitely have you share.
Musa, as he mentioned, doesn'ttake a lot of interviews as he
(50:27):
mentioned, doesn't take a lot ofinterviews, but I really
appreciate him being open,transparent, vulnerable for you,
sharing some of his greatestmoments, sharing some of his
biggest learnings, becausethat's what helps the next
generation grow.
So please, like, share this onFacebook, linkedin, whatever
(50:50):
platform you're on.
Put it in an email, send it toyour team, because these are
life lessons that shouldn't beheld by us.
We're sharing them with you foryou to share them with others,
so, please.
I'd also like to take a momentand thank Stephen Herbruck for
his dedication to the industryas well.
(51:11):
Personally, I've been affectedthrough prism controls and get
to see how his passion fortechnology has shaped the tools
that most farms use today in theUS.
He's had some contribution tothe advancement in technology
(51:31):
that's still used today.
Some of his original inventionsare still maintained by
customers and maintained by us,and without leaders like Steven
that were just innovative, sawthe leading edge of technology
and said hey, mom and dad, Iwant to use this to help our
(51:53):
business, and not only help ourbusiness.
He could have held all of that,but he shared it with the
industry.
He shared it throughgenerations of a company that's
now 45 years old.
Prism Controls is, and if youaren't familiar with Prism
Controls, please,prismcontrolscom, check out
their website.
(52:13):
They bring this to you becausethey believe in sharing this
vision with you, the industry,because ultimately, together
we're going to feed the world.
So thank you, listeners, andhave a great night.
I'm out.
Welcome to the Poultry Leadership Podcast.
I'm your host, Brandon Mulnix.
On today's episode, in-house Ihave Mohamed Mousa from
Herbruck's Farms.
Mohamed is a legend in theindustry.
If you've been around for anylength of time, you've probably
had a very positive interactionwith Muhammad.
(00:49):
He has been working in thisindustry pretty much his whole
career, and what he's going tobring today is not only his
story but also some really greatadvice for leaders in the
industry.
Mohamed, welcome to the PoultryLeadership Podcast.
Mohamed Mousa (01:07):
Thank you.
I appreciate your inviting meto speak and I can tell you you
are the first one I agreed tospeak and you are a very, very
valuable person because whereyou are and where you come from,
and also for the relationshipwith Herbruck's.
Brandon Mulnix (01:24):
Thank you, Mohamed.
I really appreciate that.
Can you give the listeners whomay not know who you are a
little?
Mohamed Mousa (01:32):
bit background.
My name is Mohamed Mousa.
I am a native of Egypt.
I was born in very, very smallcommunity, about five homes next
to the Nile.
We had a farm and we had I amthe oldest on three boys and we
(01:52):
had old tractors and stufflaying around and the farm was
neglected.
Nobody was really taking careof it.
It was banana farm, oranges insome fields and so on, and my
family was in construction,steel construction.
So all what you see around theshop is welding machines and
(02:15):
things of that nature.
So I started when I was veryyoung, about four years old,
asking to get some gifts in mybirthday and I asked for some
chicken.
Got about a hundred of them,most of them died, and a lot of
story about that.
The guys in the shop felt sorryfor me and they made me a small
(02:38):
aviary system, you can believe.
But it had a drawer for themanure and I go every day take
the feed for the chicken,whatever I found in the house
and clean the manure.
And I learned that you cannotput the manure close to the
house.
So I had to take it away andput it beside the trees,
(03:00):
thinking that I took it awayfrom the house and later on I
learned that that's a fertilizer.
But I didn't know that.
Then, when I went to highschool and my father wanted me
to go to engineering school,that I can be the reign of the
(03:21):
company and take over.
I did not.
Ran of the company and takeover.
I did not.
And I went studied poultry andanimal production, genetic and a
few other things, construction.
Of course I had to study itbecause I didn't want to, but I
had to study it because youdon't get allowance and get
(03:41):
money unless you listen to that.
It helped me over the years,believe it or not, that now I
can understand how to buildchicken house, how to ventilate
it, how to do that.
I learned all of this notintentionally but because I was
ordered to do.
I started working in thepoultry business, started in
genetic company, then after thisgrandparent, then parent stock,
(04:03):
started in genetic company,then after this grandparent,
then parent stock, and I didthat for about 12 and a half
years.
Then after that I was runningaround the world.
Of course, if you are atechnical guy they tell you
where to go.
Didn't have too much wisdom, sowherever they send me I go and
(04:24):
I always go.
Get a guy and build a littlereputation of loving the chicken
, loving the animals, know howto get production and so on.
Even I slept with baby chicksso many nights in a bill of hay
and I didn't mind at all takinga shower with very cold garden
hose, sometimes in Saudi Arabiain these hot climates.
(04:46):
Anyhow, after that I got marriedand I have kids and I had to
choose between traveling andenjoying the other countries or
take care of the family, and ofcourse I choose the family.
And that's when I started asmall business in the country of
(05:08):
Iraq and because I was aforeigner, I had a big problem
with the rules and thegovernments and I took my money.
They kicked me out.
Then I had a job offer here inthe United States and I came in
to do genetic selection.
I didn't know if I wouldsucceed or not, but I did.
(05:31):
And after that went to take someclasses for DNA typing and my
professor, a great, great man,his name is Robert Washburn.
And Dr Washburn told me you'resmart, guy, but you are a dumb
professional.
So I said what you mean?
He said go in management.
(05:52):
We will soon have a high schoolkid with a computer.
He could do better than me andyou and that genetic thing you
are running behind.
And I I said okay, thank yousir, and I got the first job in
the layer industry in 1993.
And I am still doing it tillnow.
Brandon Mulnix (06:15):
And that was with which company in 1993?
.
Mohamed Mousa (06:19):
Was Eleanor Farms in Georgia and a lot's changed.
Brandon Mulnix (06:24):
Eleanor Farm is in Georgia and a lot's changed.
So, mohamed, not many peoplehave a story of being
multinational and getting all ofthese opportunities to learn,
because what I've learned fromyou is you like to learn.
Maybe not what you're told tolearn back in school, as you
said, but you learned.
But just in general, you're alifetime learner.
(06:44):
How has that lifetime learningcontinued after you got your
first management job?
Mohamed Mousa (06:50):
Well, I had management jobs before, but it
was not in the layer industry.
I had broiler breeders andgrandparent and I did some
genetic work with geneticselection against lymphoid
leucosis and other diseases.
Medics and others was causing alot of damage in the poultry
(07:11):
industry worldwide and I hadsuch great people to train me.
And I can mention many, many ofthem, but I will mention three
people whom had.
They are not living at thistime with us, but they live in
my heart.
One of them is Dr Twineco andhe was the president and top
(07:35):
veterinarian from what used tobe called Uribreed Nowadays it's
Hendrix Genetic.
And the other one is Dr Nageland he is from Germany and he
was a teacher and he taught mehow to teach and I will say
(07:57):
something about this man.
One day he told me I was askinga lot of questions and he told
me that he said I will tell youeverything under one condition.
And I said what is that?
He said you have to pass thisknowledge to others and I am
doing that now.
The third person his name isRick Berger and Rick Berger is
(08:21):
from Virginia and he was a toughboss, but he believed in me and
he gave me a lot of confidence,even when I did not know what I
need to do.
So I go to a farm and some,let's say, in Turkey, and I
don't know what I am looking at.
I am young, green, yes, have alot of knowledge in my head, but
(08:46):
I couldn't explain it and I goto the hotel room.
I call him Sometimes.
He answers, sometimes not, andhe sometimes leave me overnight
to grill my head a little bit tofind a book or something to
read.
We used to carry books with us.
Our internet was in a briefcase, you know and he answered me in
(09:10):
the morning.
He knows, of course, here I am,what time and all that, and he
tells me look into this, lookinto that, look into that.
And he ends his words to me byget those guys who are running
that farm and explain to themwhat I just told you, don't get
in trouble.
He used to end his advice bydon't get in trouble, and I
(09:35):
didn't know what it means.
You know, don't go to the barsand all of this stuff till he
explained it to me.
When I was married he said Ithink you know what I mean now.
That is the foundation Throughmy career.
I understand you are, as aleader, as good as your team and
you are as weak as your weakteam member.
(09:56):
So I spend a lot of timelooking for knowledge, ask
questions, get information andtrain the team that the team and
I can, as a leader, carry theresponsibility together and get
the best of both worlds theacademic side of things and also
the practical side.
Brandon Mulnix (10:17):
It's interesting you mentioned the word
foundation.
I mean foundation meanssomething that you plan on
building on.
I mean foundation meanssomething that you plan on
building on.
How have you continued to buildon that foundation,
specifically in the area ofteaching others?
Mohamed Mousa (10:33):
Every business has a capacity.
When I joined Herbruck's,horbrooks was a smaller company
and as the company grew I had toadd another team members.
But also I appreciateHerbrook's family, especially
Stephen Herbrook and Greg andHerb, for letting me do things
(10:56):
the way I thought it'sbeneficial to the company.
So I hire college graduates andeven if they don't know much
about egg layers and egg layerequipment and vaccination and
all those things, then we teachthat and when we start preparing
(11:19):
and training, you're notpreparing and trained for your
own good.
You are training and preparingfor the good of that person and
also for the future of thecompany, that the company can
have a way to grow and a way toserve the customers.
(11:39):
Because at the end of the day,even if we produce eggs or
produce broilers, we have acustomer we are serving and we
have to serve our customers verywell.
Brandon Mulnix (11:49):
With that growth you've affected a lot of people
, not just on your team, butalso a lot of the people that
I've heard from that know.
You know, musa, as you're wellknown in the industry, for
you've had an effect on vendors.
How do you translate leadershipfrom the farm into the vendors
(12:12):
that you've affected sopositively?
Mohamed Mousa (12:14):
The people whom you deal with, either inside the
company what I call it, yourstaff or the outside your
vendors whom supply you, or yoursupplier or supply chain, or
even people you talk to inacademic establishment, in
universities, like professors,let's say, and so on, you get a
(12:36):
certain level of humanityconnection.
You connect with those peoplein a level much higher and much
greater and much purer than thebusiness transaction.
And from my reading about thehuman ability to be above all
(12:56):
the money and the profit and allthose things, it's the guidance
which you come end of the dayand you say is everybody is
winning.
And I found out that this wayalso make the other person in
supply chain or vendor ormanufacturing of certain
(13:17):
material.
They give you the best advice,not only the best product, but
also the best advice.
The best advice, not only thebest product, but also the best
advice.
And through those years whichnow in the United States I've
been working for about 36 years,the friendship with people I
worked with from the time Istarted till now was still
(13:38):
connecting.
Most of them we send Christmascards to each other and ask
about our families and some ofthem I know, their wives and
their kids and so on.
The great philosopher, whom alot of people may don't know the
name very much and he was avery his name is Socrates and he
(14:01):
was always mixing betweenhumanity and action.
And our action is continue fromthe day you do it.
It lives with you the rest ofyour life.
And if that action and thatcommunication in a tender,
loving level you create ateamwork in your staff that they
(14:25):
in harmony, they work togetherfor the interest of the business
, but also they know how tocommunicate with the other
outside world for the best ofboth worlds.
That way created notintentionally because I didn't
know that's what the outcomewill be a very calm staff and
(14:46):
nobody say negative aboutsomebody else.
Everybody is trying to help andI directed all the energy from
the staff and myself and eventhe owners to serve the animals
and I came up with serving thebirds.
The other thing is animalwelfare.
As I said before.
(15:06):
You know I was a person, achild.
I have some baby chicks andmost of them died.
That creates in deep on me thecare of the animal because I
felt that I did not care aboutthose baby chicks even at the
childhood.
My mom have German parents andso on, mixed Italian and so on,
(15:31):
and she was very strong in herviews about things.
And when the chicks died, shejust sat me down in a kitchen
table and told me, if you tookcare of them they would be still
alive.
And I do that with what we donow in practice.
(15:51):
Relationships and friendshipstake the business to a higher
level than the money that runsaction.
Brandon Mulnix (15:58):
As you have these interactions with people,
you're a genuine human being,which is something that I've
been able to experience.
I had the pleasure of runninginto you at the airport and you
took the time to sit and mentorme a person that you knew of
through company that Prismcontrols, but I could tell you
(16:23):
were immediately into coach mode, into mentor mode, and it was
so inspiring in this industry offolks that you know, in the
busyness of travel you go to allkinds of events, you're asked
to do all these things, but youtook that time to invest in me
and then I think we even sattogether on the airplane.
The seats were next to eachother, which was such a blessing
(16:46):
.
So is that purposeful for you?
Mohamed Mousa (16:50):
Yes, you know, our knowledge and our ability is
because knowledge is not theonly thing.
It's how to deliver thatknowledge and how to send it to
the direction which it canbenefit others.
It's a kind of a gift.
You don't own it.
You know I don't own thisknowledge.
I don't own that.
(17:10):
All the people vested theirtime on me is borrowed
information.
I have to lend it to somebodyelse.
And remember what I was told byDr Nagel that yes, I'm going to
lend you this information butyou have to pass it to others.
But from my reading, the valueof any person decline with age
(17:38):
and power and retired and this,and that if you don't put that
money to benefit, I would sayhumanity.
But I really, really look forthe benefit of the birds.
I love the animals, I love thechicken and I know exactly
(17:59):
everything and how much theylabor every day to produce that
egg or to build meat for us toenjoy and so on.
And that knowledge it's foreverybody and it's not owned by
anybody.
Brandon Mulnix (18:14):
Sharing that knowledge.
It's not owned.
That is powerful.
That is something that so manypeople including myself at some
points feel that when I meetsomebody like you, I need to
talk, and I think what you'rereminding me in this is ask
questions and listen.
(18:35):
There's so many things you canlearn from others just by
shutting your mouth andlistening in a way that actually
you're going to learn something, and so I take that you know.
Thank you for the reminder inthat, because, again, we have
this knowledge.
I mean, the purpose of thispodcast is to share that
knowledge with the nextgeneration.
(18:56):
As you look at the nextgeneration, what encourages you?
Mohamed Mousa (19:02):
Okay, I mentioned to you that I was young one day
.
I am 71 and a half years oldnow.
Back then in early late 1970s,especially 1979 to 1983, I was
young and you will be surprisedto know that I was a hippie and
(19:23):
I was a member of a band.
We were playing music and wewere imitating the Beatles.
We did a lot of things whichwas not very good, because the
police used to come and chase usaway because we were making
noise in the middle of the night, early early.
I discovered that talking topeople and understanding where
(19:47):
they stand make you a betterperson, not only a better person
for the people, but a betterperson for yourself.
You know how to forgiveyourself when you make a mistake
and you admit it and alsotranslate that to the young
person.
When I went to do bigger rolesin the industry, I see that
(20:10):
person just got out from theuniversity, know very little.
I see myself in that person andI see myself not as I am today.
I see myself back then when Ididn't know what I'm doing and I
coach my team, the younggeneration leader.
Now that you always lend yourhand and your ability to the
(20:35):
young person coming out from theschool.
He or she can take thatfoundation and build on it and
they become very effective teamleaders and they will make the
operation to run just like anengine, every part of the engine
synchronized with the otherpart to bring that horsepower,
(20:59):
which is a company, business andbenefit every person Paycheck.
At the end of the day everybodybenefit.
But the big benefit from all ofthat that the animal welfare
for the chicken become not justa word or written plan.
(21:19):
It become a daily practice thatif somebody see a bird, let's
say hang in in the wire, veryquickly they go, take that bird,
they look at it and we createdsomething we call it a hospital
or resting area, take them awayfrom the general competition and
put them feed and water and allof that, that tender loving to
(21:44):
the chicken can also transfer tothat.
Young people coming up thatthey can future leaders in the
industry.
Brandon Mulnix (21:53):
I can tell you're passionate about the bird
.
I can see it in the way youtalk.
I have the pleasure of beingface-to-face with him and the
passion that he has for birdsand chickens and people.
You're blessed.
I mean, you see Gen 4 of theHerbrook family coming through,
as we call them and other folkscall them.
So I ask what encourages youabout them?
(22:15):
What is something that you'reworried about?
Mohamed Mousa (22:20):
First, I want to say that the young generation I
really believe strongly.
They have more resources thanwhat somebody like myself had.
They're much more intelligentin getting things done quicker
time, saving what I used to doin a day, I understand.
(22:42):
Right now they can do in fiveseconds.
And I give you an example if Iwant to look to a float layers
performance and I want to getmortality exhibit in houses and
all that, I used to have that ina card and you have to write it
down and you have to look atwhat I bought it and this and
that.
Well, today, then we went tothe Excel sheets and all that.
(23:04):
Well, today, you ask thequestion, you get the answer in
less than two seconds.
So they are smart, but theyneed the direction.
And there is one more thingwhich is very, very critical for
business.
Most of the people younggeneration now try to glide over
(23:26):
the effective line.
This is my analysis.
The effective line always iswhen you know the details and
you direct other people to payattention to the details.
This is life, animals.
This is not a piece ofmachinery.
You can't turn it off and thoseanimals 24 hours a day.
(23:48):
And to glide over thateffective line means that you
are missing something or youpush it to somebody else.
You shouldn't.
And my advice always to theyoung generation is it's your
responsibility, it's his, it'shis, it's everybody.
What I worry about them, it'sone thing, one item only, and
(24:15):
that item is much higherconfidence than understanding
the animal need.
The animal need cannot belooked at as he will take care
of it, it's okay, or any of that.
The animal need is the animalneed need to be specified, need
(24:37):
to be explained and need to befollowed.
And I am a board member withthe International Animal Welfare
Alliance and also I chair theLER subcommittee the animal
welfare.
It was on me before even Istart to go to university and
study because my failure early,early in age.
(25:00):
Animal welfare is always amoney maker for the business.
Because you have healthychicken, you have caring people
and you have a way to develop abitter practices.
Because you have healthychicken, you can do.
Because you have healthychicken, you can do a lot with
healthy chicken to get betterproduction.
(25:21):
You cannot do that withunhealthy birds.
Brandon Mulnix (25:25):
So you've been with Herbrooks since what year?
Mohamed Mousa (25:31):
2005, August 2005 .
I'm getting very close to 20years.
Brandon Mulnix (25:36):
Okay, so in that time you know, Herbrooks, from
my understanding, did a lot ofwork in understanding what a
healthy flock, healthy numbersof caged and then the numbers of
birds in cages, and reallyreally worked hard on those
those numbers.
What have you seen andexperienced as to how to really
(26:01):
focus on on on the bird and andwhat was that conversion like?
Because you started probablywith caged and and a certain
government regulation?
What does that evolution looklike?
Mohamed Mousa (26:13):
my background was , as I mentioned, is breeders
genetic and all those birds getput in floor or in slats.
We had some artificialinsemination, certain special
breeds which we had to make surethat we multiplied, and all of
(26:34):
that.
You put them in cages and of ofcourse, there is when you put a
test flock, you bend those andyou put.
In my time we used to put anumber and nowadays they are
putting a code that you can readwith a code reader.
Herb Brooks, before my time,was already understanding the
(26:56):
animal welfare.
The only thing I did that Iparticipated in it with the
employees.
I didn't leave it to theemployees only, I went there
with them and I implemented onething, and Stephen was the
champion on that I don't like tosee dead birds in the floor.
None, zero, no tolerance.
(27:19):
A dead bird must be respectedand put in a plastic bag.
And Herbrooks had crematoriesand if you take a bird to the
crematory you raise the value ofcaring about the animal because
it's not being put in the trashor something like that.
(27:40):
And I learned a lot fromStephen.
I learned a lot from what's inhis mind.
I used to talk to him and Gregwe talk about different things.
They say it a certain way and Igo do it another way, but in
the end it's in the interest ofthose animals.
(28:00):
I work also with othercompanies.
I work with Rose Acre and OhioFresh and other companies and
our industry blasts with goodleaders, regardless of the price
of eggs or this or that,Regardless the price of eggs or
this or that.
But the egg industry was a goodleading scientist whom the
(28:26):
scientific committee for UnitedEgg Producers created an
atmosphere for animal welfare.
Instead of it is geographicallyin one farm, it become industry
wide, Different levels, yes,but in the same time it took
over in the country and mypleasure to say that the young
(28:48):
generation coming out today theyfound it already and they are
adapting it and using it.
So what we did back then and itwas a conversation and it was is
it right, Is it not?
How many square inches?
How many of this, how many ofthat?
Today is a very stablefoundation.
It made from concrete right now, and every young person coming
(29:11):
out is building on it.
Did we do a good job?
I know to be determined.
You know it's a.
Do we know exactly what'sanimal welfare supposed to be?
Well, maybe some of us say yes,I know.
And some of us say, well, itdoesn't pay and this and that,
(29:32):
but what it is is a verypowerful direction for the young
generation to develop, a goodway to serve for those animals
and to produce food not producedunder stress.
Stressed animals is going totaste completely different in
their product than animal is notstressed.
Brandon Mulnix (29:56):
Interesting then , animal is not stressed.
Interesting, I mean to see thatyou know the foundation's been
set.
You have evolved through yourcareer and I like to ask the
question you mentioned.
As a kid a pivotal moment waswhen you lost the birds.
That set your foundation ofvaluing the bird.
Is there another pivotal momentwhere maybe you made a mistake,
(30:21):
had something happen thatreally changed you that you
would share, that could helpmaybe somebody else not do the
same thing you did?
Mohamed Mousa (30:31):
Yes, many of them .
So I will mention a few and Imentioned some about this that
the team have to work together.
I was overseeing a flock ofbreeder in Turkey, up in a
mountain, and the baby chickswas coming from Holland, from
(30:51):
the Netherlands, and I supposedto be in the plane.
It's a charter flight and it'snot very comfortable, but you
got to be in it.
I went late about 10 minutesand the plane they did not.
I seen the plane in a tarmacbut they did not let me get in.
So I went, I booked a ticketand that, so I was late.
(31:13):
I went about eight hours later.
I went about eight hours later.
The people home in the farm.
I was assured that they will do.
I called and I left a messagewith somebody.
You know the phone was only inthe office, so you leave a
message and somebody take it tothe field.
And those were 7,000 birds Iremember the number, and the
(31:37):
males is separate from thefemales and the instruction
would said both the malesseparate and you make it, get
cardboard and do this and dothat and put the brooder in this
height and feed, and all theregular instruction which we had
(31:58):
written.
And they already received thatbefore that, but it goes with
every flaw.
And inside one from thosepallets which they have the
boxes stacked was a box with allthe vaccine which was going to
be applied for those birds,because I went late.
Even we told them there is abox in there and it has a
(32:19):
vaccine in it.
The person who was dealing withall of this was a truck driver,
so the first thing he did hetook that his loading, you know,
from the airport.
He found that box, he took itand he put it with him in the
cabin.
Right or wrong.
There is papers in therewritten in instruction one, two,
(32:42):
three, four, anyhow.
It was my mistake because I didnot stable or tape those papers
.
So the papers was left in thecheckbox In the field.
When the chicks arrived inthere, they put them in and they
did the water, the feed and allthat stuff and they were
(33:02):
thinking I am coming back in inan hour, let's say, or so.
So I went straight from theairport to the farm.
I found no vaccine at that.
Coccidiosis vaccine was notavailable, was not even invented
.
So we used to go in and try tomake sure that we have some
(33:27):
umbrella, and we do this, youknow, certain seven days later
and so on, or leave the birds toget the seeds then after
they're treated, and so on.
So I found no vaccine.
Instead of staying in the farm,I went to look for the vaccine,
and that's a mistake.
(33:49):
But the time I went back wefound the vaccine box is in the
cab.
After I think it was 12 hours orso hot days, we went back to
the farm, myself and the farmmanager which I went.
I picked him up from his home.
During that period theventilation breaker was tripped
(34:16):
and the temperature, I think,was almost 40 degrees centigrade
and the brooders is running.
I do not know when thishappened exactly, we could not
track it, but I found about 60%of the baby chicks is dead.
I blamed myself for that and Itook the responsibility and I
(34:39):
was working for a great, greatman.
When I called him and I told himthe story and I said that
statement, I said Rick, I don'tmake too much money, but this is
my mistake and I will pay forit.
Please cut 25% every month.
(35:02):
I used to get paid per monthand he said I am going to cut
everything.
You're not going to get a pennyuntil you pay for the checks.
And he said ha ha ha.
And I didn't know what he meant.
And he said three days from nowyou're going to get the balance
(35:23):
, because we were guaranteedseven days.
He sent the baby checks and Iwas so afraid that something
happened and those birds die.
I stayed 10 days in thatchicken house, day and night,
taking shower by a water hose.
That's a mistake.
(35:44):
I just hang in.
I didn't think.
I did not think can I stayanother hour?
I immediately turn around and Idid not pay attention to what's
inside the chicken house.
Brandon Mulnix (35:57):
It's interesting because that mistake is
something that you'll neverforget and you shared, like it
happened yesterday, and yet yousee business owners and business
managers fire people overmaking a mistake like that.
Mohamed Mousa (36:17):
I think this is short-sighted, because when a
person, young or old, makes amistake, it's not intentionally,
it's the attention of thatmoment went somewhere else.
I want to tell you about thatincident that you cannot get
that vaccine from anywhere elseand at that time we had a
(36:39):
contract with Intervet.
Intervet puts the packettogether, they carry it to the
airport, one from the companyputs it in and it goes Making
mistakes.
Sometimes it's the bestteaching moment for anybody, but
it needs to be addressed,highlighted and I would add to
(37:00):
any manager out there nicely,and I'm going to ask every
person in a leadership work withthe chicken Never tell one from
your team member you are firedbecause he made a mistake or she
made a mistake.
Your team member you are firedbecause he made a mistake or she
(37:21):
made a mistake.
Never put them in an easebecause you ask them something
and, intentionally or notintentionally, it did not happen
exactly as you want.
If you explain things to peopleand you don't write it down,
there is some steps is going tobe missing and it's not that
personal mistake, it's your ownmistake because you did not
(37:41):
write it down.
All of us make mistakes, evenin our personal life and
training a person after made amistake.
It's the best teaching momentever.
Brandon Mulnix (37:54):
The reception is almost 100% ever, the reception
is always almost 100.
I've found in managing peopleover the years that if it truly
was an unintentional mistake, itis that best learning
opportunity and they may neverdo that ever again if it's in
their power.
There are mistakes systems, youknow, as as a controls company,
(38:17):
I mean we try to prevent everyhuman mistake that's imaginable
out there.
Because somebody made thatmistake of the breaker tripping
and no alarm.
Back then to say, hey, there'sno power to this.
And what did that change overtime was, hey, we probably
should put a monitor on thepower and if it goes out, we
(38:42):
alarm somebody.
We tell them Because humans,there was failure points all
along there.
But yet it's one of thosethings that, as leaders, we
don't look at the mistake, asalways the person, but the
process.
What could we do as leaders tokeep that from happening again?
Because it's going to happenagain if we don't do something
(39:05):
about it.
And that's On leaders.
When something happens thesecond time, that's on leaders,
every single time.
Mohamed Mousa (39:13):
Comment on that.
That incident was a breaker.
It's not only put me internallyas a person failed to care of
the animals.
I did not care how much it didcost, but I see baby chicks in
front of me and I was very movedby that.
(39:33):
So after we got the other birdsand we put them in, I sit down
and it's a pail of hay they get.
They don't have wood shaving,so they had hay and I was
sitting in it and I said what Ineed to do now and my eyes went
(39:54):
to the breaker box.
I knew electric a little bit soI asked if they have new breaker
and they said no.
I said do you have electrician?
And they said yes, but he's somany miles away, kilometers away
.
I said can you ask him to comehere?
I'm not leaving, I'm staying,because I was afraid that that
(40:14):
breaker trip again.
Then the electrician came inand he said oh, that's too much
load in one breaker, we have toseparate them.
And that solved the problem.
He put three breakers in therebecause when everything runs, it
(40:34):
was overloading that breaker.
So if you put a new breaker,it's just a matter of time in
that heat which is going to tripagain.
And this happened.
We talk about mistakes here.
I'm not understanding thetimetable.
This was in the third day thatI thought about it, and if I was
not sitting in the front ofthat breaker box I may not know
(40:55):
it.
My advice always is don't leavethe place till you analyze the
problem, and I do that.
I can sit in a chicken housefor hours because I don't know
what I'm looking at.
Brandon Mulnix (41:07):
As you get to that point, you're 71 years old.
Most people retire at 63, 65years old.
What kept you going for thelast six to eight years?
Mohamed Mousa (41:22):
My love to my profession and my love to my
team and the owner of thecompany, I will not be able to
just give Herbrooke's familytheir deserved credit, not only
with me but with everybody whoworks there, and you are from
the community and you know whatthey do.
(41:43):
My love to the animals hasalways derived me to say what I
can do better, not only for theanimals, but how we can reduce
mortality, how we can improveproductivity, how we can retain
feeders longer.
There is a lot of science andresearch out there.
There is tons of universitiesputs scientific data out and I
(42:07):
took it in my own that I am thatconduit that I can bring some
from that to the team.
Sometimes we succeed, sometimesnot, but in the same time, if
you work on it and you get thehelp from the scientific
community and transfer this toyour team as practice, you can
(42:27):
make wonders.
And I give you a little examplethe company I'm working for now,
herb Brooks Boulder Ranch, isthe only company is MS and MG
negative, no vaccine.
It didn't happen because I wantto.
It happened because we have agood team, we have good practice
, we have good owners, we haveowners value the employees but
(42:50):
value the customer.
Owners, value the employees,but value the customer where the
egg goes.
That customer gets a lot ofattention from our owners and
our team members and it's notone time, it's every day, every
meeting that the customer in inthe center of the discussion,
(43:11):
equally with the animals and theanimal welfare how we feed the
birds right, how we take care ofthem, how we ventilate them.
Also the sense of community.
You want to make sure that youare not creating a bad odor and
spread all over the place.
You want to make sure that youare friendly for the community
(43:34):
and you address their need evenbefore they mention it or they
complain about it.
And I give that credit toStephen Herbrook.
Stephen used to put that rightin front of us all the time and
he's in a better place than I am.
If he see a fly, one fly in hiscar he should call me and call
(43:59):
Greg and call this and call thatand say there's flies out there
, one, one fly.
He was a visionary man lookingfor excellency in his operation
and his business and serving thecustomer and taking care of the
animals and I can talk a lotabout him because I used to sit
(44:20):
with him all the time.
He trusted me with my nonsensestuff sometimes, which I used to
say about making the feed alittle bit more expensive, or we
do this or we do that, orcleaning this or doing I'll tell
you a lot of other things, butthat man, he was a true poultry
(44:41):
leader.
He understood how he can makesomebody like me and others to
bring what's in them to servethe animal and customers.
I am indebted to him.
Brandon Mulnix (44:56):
The rest of my life and for you listeners that
don't know, Stephen herbrook isthe founder of poultry
management systems, which is nowprison controls, and so the
precision, the value of the bird, the value of the bird, the
value of the customer, and allof that is what his legacy
(45:19):
continues to spread.
As your reflection of that, I'mso glad to actually get to hear
this, because you knowStephen's at a point where some
of this is really he's not ableto share this.
Mohamed Mousa (45:32):
He also served the industry.
He served in United EggProducer with his very low voice
.
He can bring wisdom.
In a meeting people shouting,he can bring that wisdom and
make that point which they arecommunicating and disagreement
(45:53):
about.
He can get that point to alevel of calmness that will be
accepted.
I learned this from him.
Brandon Mulnix (46:05):
I could talk with you all day and our
listeners probably could listento you all day, but I want to
respect your time all day, andour listeners probably could
listen to you all day, but Iwant to respect your time.
Mohamed Mousa (46:14):
what's what is one thing that you have to share
with the next generation thatwe haven't talked about yet I am
very excited and very happy tosee the next generation, the
people who are interested andhave a high level of learning
(46:37):
about how to run a company, havelive animals in it.
And I will say this for iglearsand broiler breeders and to
other people whom I am helpingoutside the United States, to
other people whom I am helpingoutside the United States Give
the animals your love and try toknow more about them and to try
(47:00):
to be not above the effectivelion or the needed lion.
Get back to the details.
Respect highly that thoseanimals need a high level of
care in every direction, if it'sfeed, temperature, water, water
quality, anything, litter, goodrunning equipment, all of that.
(47:23):
But also to your team member.
If you are a leader, your teammember is the tool, is the help,
is an instrument which makesthe wheel turn.
(47:44):
Always give them the advice andalways listen to them when they
tell you something, even ifit's not important in your mind.
Later you're going to thinkthat that person, when you
listen to him, will come to youlater with a bitter idea, with a
correction, with somethingyou're not looking to correct
because you can see everythingyourself.
And also I advise the younggeneration to have passion to
(48:07):
the animal welfare and tounderstand the birds have
feeling and they are serving usas food.
And the other one we areproducing food not for
decoration, this is for humanconsumption, which my family,
your family, your grandson, yourgranddaughter, your elderly.
(48:31):
Food safety is very, verycritical and if you don't know
it 100%, you better read andfound it, because all the
information is out there.
And I want to say something tothe scientific community in the
United States, united Kingdom,netherlands, germany, italy, the
people I was associated with.
(48:52):
They invest in young generationand I tell them I take my hat
off for all the work you do,which made somebody like myself
in the level I am.
That can also go to the younggeneration and they can be a
better poultry man, bettermanagers and better coaching,
(49:17):
preparing the new generation asI did.
Brandon Mulnix (49:21):
Thank you, Well, mohamed Mousa, thank you for
your years of service.
I've only got to experiencejust a few of them, and I've
seen just what a blessing you'vebeen to the industry, and I
know that as long as there'sbreath in your lungs, you're
going to be caring for the bird.
There's no retirement that willkeep you away from this
(49:43):
industry.
Mohamed Mousa (49:45):
I don't have a plan for retirement.
If I exit where I am now, I amjust going to do something else.
But I am eager to serve, small,big.
I am one of the people whom youcan say life is about serving
others.
Brandon Mulnix (50:06):
So much wisdom, so much heart, even with a
lawnmower in the background,even with tapping on the tables
everything that means we putheart into this podcast for you
Listeners.
This is an episode I want todefinitely have you share.
Musa, as he mentioned, doesn'ttake a lot of interviews as he
(50:27):
mentioned, doesn't take a lot ofinterviews, but I really
appreciate him being open,transparent, vulnerable for you,
sharing some of his greatestmoments, sharing some of his
biggest learnings, becausethat's what helps the next
generation grow.
So please, like, share this onFacebook, linkedin, whatever
(50:50):
platform you're on.
Put it in an email, send it toyour team, because these are
life lessons that shouldn't beheld by us.
We're sharing them with you foryou to share them with others,
so, please.
I'd also like to take a momentand thank Stephen Herbruck for
his dedication to the industryas well.
(51:11):
Personally, I've been affectedthrough prism controls and get
to see how his passion fortechnology has shaped the tools
that most farms use today in theUS.
He's had some contribution tothe advancement in technology
(51:31):
that's still used today.
Some of his original inventionsare still maintained by
customers and maintained by us,and without leaders like Steven
that were just innovative, sawthe leading edge of technology
and said hey, mom and dad, Iwant to use this to help our
(51:53):
business, and not only help ourbusiness.
He could have held all of that,but he shared it with the
industry.
He shared it throughgenerations of a company that's
now 45 years old.
Prism Controls is, and if youaren't familiar with Prism
Controls, please,prismcontrolscom, check out
their website.
(52:13):
They bring this to you becausethey believe in sharing this
vision with you, the industry,because ultimately, together
we're going to feed the world.
So thank you, listeners, andhave a great night.
I'm out.
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