Ex-$120M Director Now Makes More Money Working 2 Days a Week as a Consultant (Full Interview w/ James Kemp)

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In this video, Keaton Walker interviews James Kemp, a successful business consultant living in Bali who built multiple 7-figure businesses while working just 2 days per week. James shares his unconventional approach to business success, revealing why selling small promises with big vision is more effective than making huge claims, and how changing your content from "how-to" to "how-I" can transform your results. As the author of "The Sovereign Consultant" and a mentor who's helped countless entrepreneurs scale their businesses while maintaining lifestyle freedom, James explains why the path to success isn't about following someone else's template but finding your own authentic way through demonstration rather than declaration.

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Timestamps:

00:00-Overview    
00:29-Hello James!    
06:13-GHL!    
08:02-Gunning for the $150mil business  
10:23-Honing skillset and mindset    
12:59-The Art of Time Management    
17:29-Measuring a different kind of success  
24:26-Who do you need to be, to be successful?  
30:32-Feeling left behind    
33:05-Dials to tweak    
41:37-Attracting Quality Leads   
47:04-Offer Creation    
55:47-Serving yourself    
1:02:57-Stop Needing, Start Attracting   
1:06:41-Don't Sell, "Demonstrate"   
1:10:15-The 0-$100k Way    
1:16:52-More of James's Secret 

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#smma #consulting #podcast

Episode Transcript

James (00:00):
There are certain things that you can give and get

(00:02):
that enrich your life in waysthat you didn't appreciate.
A lot of people say they'rebuilding a business, but what
they actually want is enoughcash flow to live a great life.
The way to get clients isby not needing clients.
Getting things is useful toprove or disprove whether
those things enrich your life.
Consulting is tellingpeople how to do something,
and then the modern wayparlance of consulting,

(00:24):
it's doing it with them.
So your traces of knowledge areleft after you stop consulting.

Keaton (00:29):
How's it going, everybody.
Welcome back toanother interview.
Honored to be joined bythe James Kemp today.
Uh, all the way fromBali, Indonesia.
James, thanks forcoming on, man.

James (00:39):
Hey, man.
Good to see you.

Keaton (00:41):
Good to be seen.
Um, so I found you, I thinkabout a year ago, and I
actually found the postthat, that like, Was like,
Oh, wait, this is different.
And you were talking about,actually, I have it here.
I want to read it.
Um, because you know, like Iget connected with a lot of

(01:02):
random people on Facebook and.
It's the usual drivel, butthis, this stood out to me in
that I was like, Oh, wait, thisis like actually insightful.
I stuck my desk inthe up position.
I can't sit downeven if I want to.
I do my best work standing up.
I could sit down.
When your life is integrated,the sitting down time

(01:22):
bleeds into the other time.
I can hear themin the other room.
I like hearing the patter.
They call out asking me to play.
Keeping my desk in the upposition means I have to choose
the highest leverage tasks.
Otherwise, I would bestanding here all day.
I create that environment thatis productive and present for
me and the people I serve.
So I can create anenvironment that is enriching
and present for them.

(01:43):
The more days I spend on theearth, the more I appreciate the
little things, the little hingesthat swing on bigger doors.
I'm on.
Standing here writing thisso I can be on for them.
Uh, and my, my baby waslike not born yet, but
he was like three months.
It was like three monthsuntil the due date.
And I was like, man,there's so much to be said.

(02:05):
And your, your school biois the Lord of leverage.
So I think it, itfits along well.
And, um, it's a mindset thatI've, um, Really like done
my best to adopt from you aswe've worked together and I've
consumed a lot of your stuff.
So excited to dive into thattoday because it's, it's
just not talked about enoughand the, the leverage piece

(02:28):
is the difference betweenhonestly like living or dying
in the online space sometimes.
Yeah.

James (02:34):
Yeah.
Thank you.
Um, you, you, um, thankyou for two reasons.
Thank you for sharing themoments because when I, when
I write or create, I, youknow, I create for myself
first and one person second.
All right.
Thank you for sharingthat while I'm sitting
down, which just makes it.

Keaton (02:53):
We'll talk about the many contradictions
of James Kemp.
But a Saturday morning,

James (02:56):
so.
Okay.

Keaton (03:00):
So give us like five minutes on you.
Uh, you started way, I mean,you're from New Zealand,
but you started kind ofyour, your business journey.
In the UK, right?

James (03:11):
Yeah.
My entrepreneurship journey,um, you know, started
just over two decades ago.
Uh, so I'm datingmyself and aging myself,
uh, pretty quickly.
So, um, well came from asales, the sales world, you
know, worked for kind of bluechips, BMW, um, Xerox, and
some of the blue chips camefrom a sales background and

(03:33):
gone into finance and, uh, andstarted my own finance company.
Uh, where I was, you know,selling, selling financial
leads, uh, door to door.
Uh, and then I found this thingcalled Google and WordPress and
started to realize that maybeit was easier to, uh, you know,
work with your fingers, uh,rather than knock on a thousand
doors a day on council estatesand, uh, and the English winter.

(03:56):
Um, so did some reps on thedoor knocking and then, and
then was self taught in termsof generating leads that I
sold to finance companies.
Uh, unfortunately financecompanies stopped.
Um, you know, during, uh, afinancial crisis and I had to
go and get a job, um, and went,went into the tech sector and,
uh, long story short, overfive years, um, started as a

(04:18):
salesperson and worked my wayup to, um, marketing director
of 120 million business where,uh, essentially we were, we
were a Groupon clone down,down there in New Zealand,
um, and accumulated that time,you know, the itch to get back
into, into entrepreneurshipand take the skills that I'd,
you know, Both built myself,but also built and, you know,

(04:39):
um, and high volume sales andonline sales environments back
into helping people do it.
And then, uh, do you know,took the traditional coaching
consulting route, uh,learned from the best and
adapted, you know, a lotof those ideas for myself.
Uh, and then really, um, youknow, learn in the, in the

(05:00):
mix, you know, did, did whatI taught, what I did and, and,
um, and did what I taught, uh,and you know, the last, the last
few years, especially of beingthe realization that, you know,
once you've got a set of skills,once you've got a basic skill.
Um, that it's, there's alot of things to chase.
There's a lot of shiny objectsto chase, but, um, we have the

(05:22):
great privilege nowadays ofchoosing to build a business
around our life rather thanour life around a business.
And, you know, in myyounger days, um, it was all
about hitting the numbersand getting the targets.
Uh, and these days it'sabout having something that
I do that fits my skillset,that, that, that ultimately
feeds my life rather thanthe other way around.

Keaton (05:44):
Yeah, I think that's your like you have
the skills and the mindsetof Uh, let's say, uh, or
Hormozy or Sam Ovens, butyou choose to play in this.
Some people would callsmall game, but you know,
you know, two to 3 milliona year trying to get to 10
with a tiny team and onlydoing calls two days a week.

(06:08):
Is your.
Current goal, correctme if I'm wrong.
Yeah.
Yeah.
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And um, I think there's morepeople that need to admit
that to themselves that like,that's all they really want.
I've heard you alludethat to that in the past.
Like you talk to clientsand they're like, they're

(08:18):
embarrassed about theirreal income goals because
they feel it's too small.
Yeah.
Tell us about that.
How did you, like,were you gunning for.
I mean, you are gunningfor 10 million a year
now, but with very, verysmall constraints on that.
But were you gunning for the,the big 150 million business
and all the employees andthat eventually, and how

(08:40):
did that fall apart and,and eventually reconstruct
into your current goals?

James (08:45):
I didn't know what I was gunning for.
Um, I was gunning for somethingthat, that, that gave me meaning
and, and got me recognitionand like brush the chip on my
shoulder that I've, you know.
Of the small boy who was neverseen, um, so I was chasing,
I was chasing goals becauseit, because numbers on the
scoreboard, you know, fora long time correlated some
sense of meaning for me.

(09:06):
Um, and then in, in the time I,you know, I was married and I,
and I built a family, uh, andthen when that came along, it
shifted the sense of meaning.
So, you know, at, at, at, atthe peak, if you like of, you
know, a traditional model.
Yeah.
You know, I had a team of 14and, you know, we were doing
just under 3 million a yearat, you know, okay margins,

(09:27):
um, you know, and builtout the traditional model.
But, um, it was all consumingand, you know, the next up
level of skill acquisitionof management of hiring of
people development, Um, Irealized would take me away
from my core, which was,um, having fun and making
cool shit with cool people.
Um, so the, the, the gamewas on, you know, and I've,

(09:50):
and I've got a big skill baseto go wherever I want to go.
Um, with those skills and,you know, I've had teams of
25 people and, you know, inthe middle of, you know, nine
figure businesses, um, sothe game was on to, to keep
growing and keep scaling.
Uh, until, you know, Um, lifemade me realize that there was
life going on that was outsidethe computer screen and outside

(10:11):
the, the, the, the nine toeight, you know, kind of hours,
um, and that was skills I didn'twant to, didn't want to develop.

Keaton (10:18):
Was it having kids that made you realize that?

James (10:20):
Yeah.

Keaton (10:23):
And, um, yeah, you said that there are skills
I didn't want to develop.
Did you have anyone in yourcircle that kind of, you feel
frowned upon you or tried toconvince you to go to the next
level or was there their respectfor knowing what you wanted?

James (10:38):
I still do.
I think, um, there's, I, thechoices I've made, especially
in the last 24 months, um,you know, a lot of my friends
have large businesses.
A lot of my friendshave large teams.
And a lot of my friends have,you know, secret struggles
that they don't want to sharewith people because they,
they, they sell that model.

(10:59):
Um, and, you know,privately, um, they say
to me they're jealous.
Um, but, you know, they also,I'm not, I'm not looking
to invalidate anybody'sidea of what a business
is and or what life is.
Um, I'm just saying there's achoice about how we build it
and we have to be deliberateto, to decide the, the things
that are important to us.

(11:20):
You know, when.
Um, I started working with you.
Um, I allow places toput truth on the table.
What do you actually want?
Because we're all in these,we're all in these environments
where a lot of people are tryingto self validate the thing
that everybody else wants.
And they're like, it's kindof like that Spider Man
meme of like, do you, youwant this, you want this?

(11:40):
And everyone's pointing ateach other going, yeah, you
want this big agency with thishuge team and you want the, you
know, there's things and then.
Everybody's quietly turningaround and whispering
and going, This sucks.
The responsibility, theexpectations, the margins,
the work, the chase.
This sucks.
There must be a better way.
And, you know, I givepermission for people
not to build businesses.

(12:02):
Because very, very few peopleactually want a business.
And all the things thatare associated with it.
You know, and until you'vebeen inside these big
machines where you can loseyourself, you don't really
appreciate what that means.
And a lot of people say they'rebuilding a business, But what
they actually want is enoughcash flow to live a great

(12:22):
life and spend time with thepeople that are important
to them, um, you know, anddo the things they want to
do, whatever that might be.
And you know, if we breakdown all the things of my
model and my philosophy andthose things, it's that.
What do you want?
Here's some tools that I've gotthat can help you get there.
You know, and I haveclients with sales teams.
I have clients withsetters and closers.

(12:44):
I have clients whodeliver agency services
and have done for you.
And I don't judge asingle piece of that.
I just give them a leverageto ensure that they're
doing the things that theywant to be doing with the
people they want to bedoing it with and rewarded.
adequately for that.

Keaton (12:59):
Yeah.
So much there.
Um, would you say the, likeyou, you work, quote unquote,
work two days a week, meaningI do client work two days a

James (13:12):
week.
I work a lot,including in my head.

Keaton (13:15):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, you work in your headon the other, other times,
but you are talking toclients two days a week.
Would you say that thetime talking with the
clients you see as.
Like a necessary part of like,Hey, I'm selling consulting.
So this has to happen at somepoint or, and, or does that

(13:37):
feel like the art to you?
And what parts of what youdo, do you enjoy the most?

James (13:41):
Uh, all of it because, um, I see business as a creative
game with a scoreboard, right?
This thing we callbusiness and essentially.
The most effective long lastingbusinesses, institutions,
movements, et cetera, arekind of rooted in ritual and
creativity and, you know,and, and, and freshness and

(14:05):
newness of old things, youknow, whether it's politics
or religion or business, itall, or art, it all kind of
manifests in the same way.
So my goal with clients is togive them the tools that I've
accumulated, give them theinsight about how they work
for me, and then help themunderstand how they might work
for them so they can go off.

(14:25):
And run it themselves.
And we can both learnsomething because if I'm
not learning something froman application of, uh, and
the delivery of a client.
Then it's not interesting to me.
So I am, um, infinitelycurious rather than trying
to get, keep anything.
You know, um, I'll use youas an example, if I may.

(14:47):
Um, yeah, I'm not on YouTube.
I don't know much aboutYouTube in terms of,
uh, an organic strategy.
Um, I've seen it.
I've worked with people whohave giant YouTube channels.
I work with people whospent, you know, 5 million
a month on YouTube ads.
I've, I've seen it all, butI don't participate in it.
So I'm infinitely curiousabout when I help you build a

(15:08):
community and start to buildsome, you know, coaching
and consulting offersin these pieces, how you
apply those to your world.
Because if I can seethe insights and they
bring them into my world,that makes me better.
And the increase in my skill andthe deployment of that skill,
and the more I'm prepared to letit go, then makes you better.
And we're in a happy cycle.

(15:29):
So I don't seeany of it as work.
I just see it as art andthen the science bit.
The art is the creativityand the deployment of it
and letting go of the ideas.
You know, and that's beena, that's been a two decade
long mantra for me ofjust letting go of ideas.
Um, giving them to peopleso we can multiply them.
They can multiply them.

(15:50):
And faith in the, andtrust in, you know,
whoever you believe in.
Uh, on that spirituallevel that the universe
will return that favor andwork in all our favors.
So I'm always lookingfor what ideas can I give
people and put out there?
Um, and then how can they,how can they develop ideas?
Cause if it makes, if youdo well with my ideas, I

(16:11):
do well from the insightsthat you gain from those.
And we all do well together.

Keaton (16:16):
Yeah.
What a worldview, likewake up in the morning and
it's not about, How canI pad the bank account?
It's about how can I share andmultiply ideas with cool people
that I like hanging out with?
Is that a fair characterization?

James (16:31):
Definitely.
Definitely.
And it's from, um, obviouslyit's from a place of, you
know, to break the seal onthat, you have to trust that
the universe has your back.
But now it's from a placeof deep financial comfort,
strong stability, you know,financially and mentally.
So it's easy for meto say these things.
Um, but it, it, it had tostart from a place of if I

(16:54):
like, let my ideas go andput them out there, um, then
I will be rewarded and theless expectation I had around
that and the less pressureand need I had for that.
It's funny that the more I wasrewarded for that, you know,
over the long term in the,in the financial school board
that, that, that does matter.
Um, but can also be blindingwhen you're trying to

(17:16):
manipulate it in the short term.
Lots of people are chasing shortterm results, where if they
allowed those results to happen,um, then their long term results
would be, would be infinitelybetter than they're seeing to,
you know, today and tomorrow.

Keaton (17:30):
Yeah, it's so interesting.
Um, so, I'm sorry, this is abit of an inflection point.
Um, but it, just to relate backto what we're saying and then
Transition to the next point.
I read this in one of yourposts recently as well.
As a mentoring coach, I'd loveto hand over the exact step
by step template to success.

(17:50):
It doesn't exist.
We all measuresuccess differently.
I assembled mine, yourpath can be assembled too.
That's the, the lie that'sbeing sold is the opposite of
that, that you need to wantthe Lambo, you need to want
the big house, um, and the,the refreshing breath of air,

(18:14):
air from you and others likeyou is that, that, hey, like,
let's just figure it out.
It may be something differentthan you're being told.

James (18:24):
It's useful to get the things, I hate shoulds,
so let's talk about utility.
It's useful to get thethings to then validate or
invalidate the idea of howimportant those things are.
When I bought a 153, 000

Keaton (18:39):
SUV

James (18:40):
that I'd coveted and watched the YouTube reviews of,
and watched people drive, andhad the wonderful engine sound.
I did it so four months laterI could prove to myself that
that didn't actually make meany happier, and it actually
introduced a level of.
Um, stress in my lifethat was, was not pressure
and was unwelcome, right?
I bought the super expensivewatch to wear it around to

(19:05):
be then too scared to wearit in public because it's
too expensive and it's toovaluable and I might scratch it.
So now it sits ina box in the safe.

Keaton (19:13):
Yeah.

James (19:14):
Right?
So it is useful to chase thingsto, to then prove or disprove
whether those things giveyou, any kind of validation
or meaning or what they mean,because some of them do.
There are certain thingsthat you can give and get,
um, that, that, that enrichyour life in ways that you
didn't, didn't appreciate.

(19:35):
I, I live in a prettylike oversized, large
villa in, in Bali.
Right.
And I always said, Idon't need something
that big and that fancy.
It's excessive.
It's too much.
We've got space in likethis office I'm in the
corner of, and I'd.
There's this, this massiveroom in front of me because
I've got all this space.
Right?

(19:56):
And then when I started invitingpeople over and I brought
clients over and we sat downand I, and I, and I built an
environment where I saw peoplehave breakthroughs that they'd
never had had in any other ways.
And then I'm expanding myfamily now, uh, puppies, you
know, puppies included, um,to, enrich this space, but for

(20:19):
a long time I said I didn'tneed it, I didn't want it, and
you know, all kinds of levelsof cope, you know, depending
on, you know, what attitudeI had on that particular day.
So getting things is useful toprove or disprove whether those
things enrich your life, becauseyou may be surprised When you,
um, hit certain goals or getcertain things in your life, um,

(20:42):
what they actually lead to andwhat they actually mean to you.

Keaton (20:46):
Got it.
Uh, it reminds me of anotherone of your posts where you,
maybe you can provide some morecontext on this, but you were
talking about how hilariousit, how hilarious it is to see
these like 20 somethings inmonk mode, just like head down,
doing nothing, not spendingany of their money and you're
like, It's going to manifestitself as this crazy midlife

(21:07):
crisis at 50, like you mightas well buy the Lambo now,

James (21:11):
figure out you don't want it

Keaton (21:13):
either way.
It's going to befun to watch, but

James (21:15):
Coke and hookers era is going to be epic because it's
just, it's, there's bottlingup energy and saying that you
can channel it in one way andthat will get you to the goal.
You know what?
And there's enough truth in thatfor a certain number of people
for it not to be disproven.
But for many people, these,uh, these ideas, uh, um,

(21:35):
inherently bottling up energythat could be used in, in
much more productive ways.

Keaton (21:41):
Yeah.
So would you say the wantingof the material item, um, like
there's some people who wouldsay, don't let that drive
you, you have to find yourwhy, et cetera, et cetera,
but you and I both know thatY can be more elusive than.
Then we want it to besometimes what would you like?

(22:04):
Those are temporary goalpoststhat you're okay with being
like, I'm doing this right nowto get the next material thing.
And then that will teach me alittle bit more about what I
don't want and what I do want.

James (22:13):
Yeah.
Do stuff like get richand then see how you feel.
Right.
And this is the samephilosophy with.
With any kind of any kind ofgrowth, you know, I knocked
on Um hundreds of doors everyday when I was doing door to
door selling right becauseBehind each door was a the

(22:36):
opportunity for the sale Right.

Keaton (22:38):
Yeah.

James (22:39):
And life is exactly the same.
Life is exactly the same.
Do things, work out whatthose things mean to you,
and then either do more ofthem or stop doing them.
Right.
And that's an oversimplificationof a, you know, a very
simple philosophy.
But I just believelife is very simple.

(22:59):
Do stuff, see how it makesyou feel, what results
did you get, and thenstop it or do more of it.
And I think especially insocieties where there's a lot
of high IQ people or, you know,and a lot of people professing
emotional intelligence,

Keaton (23:19):
a

James (23:19):
lot of people just get stuck in their head about
what success might look like.
And then they abstractthat by looking at how
someone else does it.
Oh, I don't want a Lambobecause I saw a guy who's got
a Lambo and he's an asshole.
Right.
You know, I don't want tomove to Bali because I saw
someone go there and they, youknow, they got a sore tummy.
Right.
So they, we approximate someoneelse's experience with ours.

(23:43):
So it stops people doing stuff.
And this is the, this is theamazing paradox I see nowadays.
It's like never been easierto start something and it's
never been easier to getrich by just from your ideas

Keaton (23:56):
yet

James (23:56):
less and less people are starting because they're worried
about what the future might looklike if they do those things.
Because they're living throughother people because they've
got that shoved in theirface Through social media
every single day and they gowell if I do that then this
is gonna happen It's likeyou don't know just do stuff

Keaton (24:15):
Yeah,

James (24:15):
do more stuff make more offers Take more risks do more
things while you can and thenlearn we only learn by doing

Keaton (24:26):
yeah, it's such a good point So you listed that you
wanted today to talk about whodo you need to be successful?
Who sorry who do you need tobe to be successful online?
I'm glad I reread itbecause I was thinking
it's What do you need todo to be successful online?

(24:49):
But that differentiation of whodo you need to be is, is huge.
Um, and I want to giveyou plenty of time to talk
about it, but I want toask this question first.
What would you say in termsof like financial security,
what were the levels foryou where Different levels
of abundance or just beingable to like breathe and

(25:09):
look around and kind of focuson this becoming mindframe.
When did that unlock for you?
Um, obviously it wouldbe amazing if everyone
could unlock that earlier.
And I think they'd ironicallyprogress faster if they
could do it out of abundanceinstead of out of need.
But, uh, yeah, talk aboutyour own journey there

(25:30):
and then let's dive into.
The, the journeys of whatother people might look like.

James (25:37):
Yeah.
I think each step of thejourney, if I reflect back,
whether it was, um, from jobto entrepreneurship, back to
job, back to entrepreneurshipwas essentially, um, finding
replacement value as I call it.
So, um, I work with a lot ofpeople who are kind of have the

(25:57):
golden handcuffs, like they'recoming out of a particular place
where they're making good money,but they feel trapped in it.
So we work on replacing thatlevel of income with an income
that they actually love doingand a much higher effective
value rate because theyhave multiples of leverage.
So rather than earning 150 granda year as a, you know, as an, as

(26:20):
a VP, you're earning 150 grand ayear, you know, as a consultant.
And you're working 85percent less, right?
So for me it was, the, the,the levels of abundance were
matching the income of theprevious thing, of the previous
step but getting more time back.

(26:42):
And that allowed me tobe then more creative
to take the next step.
And a lot of people chasethe income increase rather
than chase the time increase.
And the times where all themagic happens, the times
where all the creativity, theuniqueness, the development,
the building actually happens.

(27:02):
But people are focusedon the work because they
directly correlate the workwith getting the income.

Keaton (27:08):
Yeah.

James (27:08):
So for me, I was coming from, you know,
a hundred and what was Ion when I left GrabOne?
About a hundred and sixty grandbasic plus bits and pieces.
So say it was 200k bythe end of the year.
Yeah.
I had to walk in to consultinggigs that paid me at least
that, but I could get thoseconsulting gigs and I could do

(27:31):
them in a day and a half a week.
So I went from a 60 hour aweek marketing director with
all the responsibility in theworld because it was a 24 seven
operation, you know, daily dealswas that, um, it is that, um,
into a, into a place where Icould do that and then I could
have the time to build it.
And so in the, in the eachstep up, as long as the

(27:55):
lifestyle didn't expand, andit did to, to, you know, fill
the void of, um, of, uh, ofsurplus in the income, then
I was always just looking forhow can I get more time back?
How can I get more time back?
But for the vast majority ofpeople, they are comfortable.

(28:19):
right where they are nowat that 10, 000 ish a month
is the, is the comfort,is the comfort level.
And then the desire kicks inbecause then there's, then
it's all about the individualbeing perpetually dissatisfied.
And the, I'll tellyou where I sit now.

(28:41):
Um, I'm on a run rate of3 million, just over 3
million a year, right?
I haven't had a full yearwhere I've done 3 million, but
I'm ahead of that run rate.
And by the end of the financialyear, I would have yielded
over 3 million out of this,this current business at 90
plus percent profit margins.

Keaton (29:00):
Yeah.

James (29:01):
My reach to 10 million is not through need.
I have financial abundance.
I have vehicles whereI investing that money
and where it's going.
And I know the purpose of it.
It's to play the game moreand to stretch the scoreboard.
So as I sit here now,I don't need more than
that, but I desire it.

(29:22):
Cause I want to work outhow to do it under the
constraints that I've got.
And I can clearly see thepath to about five and a
half million with the currentproduct suite, what I do now
with very little alterationand just optimization, I
can't see the path, but youknow, Canada, I can't see the
path beyond that, that thetechnology, the leverage and
those things will come to me.

(29:43):
And I have no, I haveno timeline and I
have no goal on that.
So for me, it's always beenabout replacement, putting the
time in, getting the time back,and then, then understanding
where that time goes to, to,to then take the stretch.
And go, what's next?
Where do I really want to go?
You know, and um, like honestly,especially there was a four

(30:07):
month period this year.
Um, you know, a seven monthsinto the year, there's a
four month period this yearwhere the season was cruise,
just cruise, um, growth,pushing, scaling.
It was not, it justwasn't feeling it.
And you know, that's aprivilege to be at when you've
got hundreds of thousands ofdollars coming in every month.

(30:28):
Um, but it's also, youknow, paying attention
to what season you're in.

Keaton (30:32):
Yeah.
Oh, just the, it goes backto the worldview of I'm
just, you know, here, findingand multiplying ideas.
And when I wake up one dayand I'm not feeling the growth
or whatever, I just like,because your model is very much

(30:53):
dependent on you because youhave very little team members,
the business kind of has to growwith you comma, and that's okay.
Like it has to grow whenyou're feeling good and it
has to cruise when you'refeeling like cruising.
Um, is there ever stillthat sense of like, I'm, I'm

(31:15):
getting behind, does thatcreep in or do you have you
ever just stayed that out?
Oh,

James (31:20):
yeah.

Keaton (31:21):
Okay.

James (31:21):
And the more you fill your world with like super smart
clients and super smart friends,the more you'll, you'll,
you'll feel like I'm missingsomething here, like, you know,
I feel behind the curve on.
YouTube.
I feel behind the curve on AI.
I feel behind the curve.
And then, you know, I justtap up smart people and

(31:43):
go, what am I missing here?
Like, what can I say?
What, what can yousay that I can't see?
What do you, what do you thinkI should be doing and just be,
you know, I don't know if I canknow what I'm talking about.
So like, I've got an idea andI know how these principles
apply and I, I work fromprinciples, but how does it,
how does that layer over?
So, yeah, I always feel behindand I always feel, feel a
certain level of dissatisfied,but then, you know, I check

(32:06):
in with myself on the daily,on a, on a daily basis about
what I'm doing, who I'm doingit with and why I'm doing it
to ensure that I'm actually.
In the driver's seat of mylife, rather than, um, than
living someone else's life,because I've convinced myself
there are, there are, thereare better things out there.
Because there's lots ofgood ideas out there, and

(32:26):
there's lots of very, veryconvincing people telling you
that their idea is the best.
And they've got, you know,you know, we have all got very
good at this, myself included.
Um, you know, I have convincedif you like many people
that, uh, you know, a oneperson consulting business
is, you know, the panaceaand definitely the future.

(32:47):
And for, for, for manypeople that's correct.
And, and, and for some it's not.

Keaton (32:51):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think like your model, whenI started with it, I was like,
this fixes every problem.
Like it's amazing.
And then you get a few monthsinto it and you're like,
okay, there's some drawbacks.
Okay.
What's this?
Um, but I, I was justtalking to my wife.
So can I ask,

James (33:09):
can I ask you a question about that?

Keaton (33:11):
Yeah.

James (33:12):
Do you know what dials to tweak within, within it
now you've got it going?

Keaton (33:16):
Well, for me, it's been a little weird because without
trying the affiliate incomehas gone to a point where I'd
never dreamed it would be.
And it's just faster,easier, less effort, like
the most leveraged thing Icould do and it's recurring.
And so I'm like, what doesthe, I enjoy the one on one,
but also there's part of itthat's just a grind for me.

(33:39):
And so I, I'm also incruise mode where I'm
like, can I just back up?
But I'm what I took from you.
And I'm still taking is like,there's your consulting model
or your, your agency model,whatever it is, like literally
is completely up to you.

(33:59):
Um, so your thingabout like stop D.
Like, uh, or stop demonizingselling your time.
Like you're selling yourtime for a thousand an hour.
Like that's a greateffective rate.
Just sell like a hundredhours a year, a hundred

(34:19):
thousand dollars.
If you have some saved, likeyou can have a really amazing
life with very few work hours.
And like, why wouldanyone demonize that?
So that for me is like,I do enjoy one on one,
but I, I don't know.
I was getting, I think,caught up in too much,
like too many beginnerconversations where I wasn't
enjoying the monotony of it.

(34:42):
And so I'm, I'm kind ofrecalibrating and figuring
out like how, how much ofthe beginner conversations
I want to be having versusthe, the higher level.
Like, Hey, let's, let'stake this from 50 K to a
hundred K instead of let'stake this from zero to five.

James (34:59):
Sure.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Uh, yeah.
One of the ways, one of theways I look at that, and
this may be useful to you is.
is, is, can I, do I want tostop having these conversations
or do I want to change theforum that I have them in?
So for me, um, beginnerconversations, um, are
much more useful in groupenvironments where I can

(35:20):
teach, teach by demonstrationthrough an example, because
the distribution of thatidea is far more leveraged.
Cause if there's 40 peopleon the call and they all
take something away fromme working with one person.
Then the amplification ofthat is both more valuable
to that individual, but alsothe people who are there.
So therefore the amplificationthe satisfaction that

(35:42):
I get is much higher.
I'll have beginningconversations all day long, but
one of my clients who has 52million a year, I ain't dropping
them in a group and saying,what are your current problems?
And you know, how are your 44team members operating today?
And you know, what arethe numbers in the KPIs?
We do that via WhatsAppand, and jump on a call
when we need to because heneeds me when he needs me.

(36:04):
And the availability of thatis, is, is proof of value.
So, so for me, I go throughseasons where I don't want to
speak to people one on one.
And usually if on reflection,it's accumulated, um, stress of
letting people too close to havethe same repetitive questions.
And there was no feedback loopof energy to say, okay, I've had
this, I've had this conversationfive times this week.

(36:26):
Okay.
And I'm fatigued because I'mnot getting anything back from
it, but high level problems or,um, you know, expensive problems
are much more satisfying tosolve because then the, the
amplification of those problemsis much more satisfying.
And, and, oh yeah, we gotback and, um, you know, one
tweak and a client's offer,you know, made him an extra 1.

(36:46):
1 million and you'relike, yeah, that's cool.
Like solving problems atscale that didn't happen in a
group call and, uh, you know,and, uh, in a school group,
uh, it happened, you know.
Yeah.
On a, on a phone call andthen a follow up, you know,
a follow up zoom where, youknow, we're pushing things
around and writing words.
So for me, I'm always lookingto change the modality.
Um, and I understand why I'min that place where I'm, I'm

(37:08):
not enjoying something becausethe energy is not there.

Keaton (37:11):
Yeah, exactly.
And I think that's, it's,it's seeing the result for
me that makes it worth it.
And so that's likeone off calls.
I had a ton of those whenI first started out, it
was just like one off call.
And then I literally neverheard from the person again.
And I was like, thatwas not worth the money.
That I got paid for thatbecause I, I need to know the

(37:32):
outcome, even if it's bad orwhatever, like this person,
they just never report back.
And obviously you can,you can reach out to them
and usually get a report.
Um, and I love those ones.
Like, I, I ran intosomebody last week.
Just out of like local meetup.
He's like, dude, wedid a consulting call
like four years ago.
I was like, Oh really?
Like, was it any good?
And he was like, yeah,I'm doing, you know, 30 K

(37:53):
a month now or whatever.
Oh, that's awesome.
Like, I wish I, I knewmore of those stories.
And so for me, I'm, I'm sortof like, I don't, I don't want
to be on all the time and haveto be forced into calls at a
specific time or respondingwithin a certain time frame.

(38:14):
So I'm trying to figure out,is it just like a season of the
year where I do that becauseit's fine for a while, or is
it more like taking equityin a few businesses and like
really being on the frontrow seat of like what the.
consulting that I'm doingis, is changing for them.
Um, but I'm luckily in a, ina position where the, uh, you

(38:36):
know, again, the accidentalaffiliate income has, has
gotten to a point where I've,it's opening up my abundance
and mindset so much that Ican take that time that you
were talking about and just.
Take the sabbatical, figureout what's next type of thing.

James (38:53):
Yeah.
Yeah.
We, we, we learnthrough contrast, right?
And what your journey is helpingyou see is the value and the
affiliate income, which helpsyou define it and put it in
a place where you define itand how much work and effort
you want to do to grow it ormaintain it or, or whatever
that your decisions are.

Keaton (39:11):
Yeah.

James (39:11):
And then to, to put yourself in places
of contrast to say.
Okay, I'm coaching thesetwo people one on one.
One on one is theconsistent thing.
The same modality.
The variable is the people.
This person I'menjoying working with.
This person I'm not.

(39:32):
They've both got the same thing,but they're different people.
And you know, I, I was, I wasdefining this on, on the, I have
a syndicate group who get callswith me twice a week around
that these businesses are offerdriven, but human powered, I, I
can show someone how to make thebest offer in the world from a,

(39:52):
it's easy to sell, but the, butthe, the, the, the, the effect
of that offer in terms of thedelivery of it, that stress,
the energy, whatever it is.
And the, and subsequently the.
How long it's going to lastselling easily and being fun
to run, et cetera, dependson the humans you put in it.

(40:12):
And in the knowledgeeconomy, that's pretty much
defines almost everything.
You know, if we make goodoffers, people will buy them.
If we work with quoteunquote bad people, which
is just a people whoaren't optimal for us.

Keaton (40:27):
Then those

James (40:27):
offers won't last and sustain and they won't give
you the results you want.
And so many people will blamethe offer rather than their
decisions and their commitmentsand their participation.
It's easier to getpeople to buy stuff.
But even if I called a hundredpeople today and offered
them a thousand bucks on thephone, you wouldn't have a
hundred percent close rate.

Keaton (40:47):
That's true.
Um, and it sort of remindsme, and maybe this is just me,
Realizing this in 2024, but Ifeel like 2024 is the lead of,
or the, the year of the qualitylead, like, look, I don't care

(41:07):
about how many come through.
I care about how manyactually have the money.
I don't have to armwrestle into a sale.
Like I'm just, I'm too oldfor this type of thing.
It's like what I'mhearing for most people,
even if they're not old.
Um, and that, that plays outon the other side, obviously
with how difficult they areto manage or how much energy,

(41:29):
energy they drain, et cetera,who, who do you have to
become to be able to do that?
Be the person or how do youattract the, the quality leads
and the quality customers?
Um, even if you're a beginner,

James (41:47):
there's two levels to this.
The first, the firstlevel of solving old
problems, new ways, right?
And so the first, the firstlevel is old problems.
New ways just meansthere's certain things
that aren't going away.
People will always wantto look better naked.
Businesses will always wantmore leads, more sales.

(42:11):
more money, more revenue,more profit, better
team members, et cetera.
So a lot of people are tryingto solve new problems in new
ways and no one understands whatthe heck they're talking about.
Right.
So look at old problems, whatproblems that can be solved

(42:33):
and what desires are in amarketplace that you, a category
that you have permission toplay in as in Markets are
built inside out, you know, Icame from an e commerce world
and so my first clients weree commerce because I could
talk the talk, walk the walk,I could, I could build inside
out because I had marketknowledge, I knew participants,

(42:55):
I could speak the lingo and Iknew what I was talking about.
So which, which old problemcan you solve in a new way
in a category that you gotpermission to play in, right?
And permission to play inmight just be going into that
category and busting in the doorand getting your first person
to actually solve a problemfor you and deploy a skill.
New Way means I've got aunique mechanism that sits

(43:17):
over the top of this wholeproblem and I'm solving it
and that's how I'm going toget your interest, right?
And so owning and brandingyour unique mechanism, um,
is really critical becauseit differentiates you in a
commoditized market becauselots of people are trying
to solve those problems.
But when you combine thosetwo things together, you get.
A multiplication effect, acompound effect that's much

(43:38):
bigger than one plus one if youhelp people lose weight, but
you've got a new mechanism todo it, you know, combining the
old the old problem with thenew way will get you far more
attention, a far more buy ina far more, um, application of
those people because humans needhumans have base desires, but
they also need stimulation andthey need newness and they need,

(44:00):
um, you know, certain levelsof dopamine with something
new in terms of doing it.
So they need new ways to tryand solve those problems.
Um, the second level is,is the way to get clients
is by not needing clients.
The way to get money isby not needing it, because
you're fulfilling your ownneeds first, and you're

(44:22):
in a place where you don'tneed anything from anybody.
And the closer you can getto that state, the more that
that will flow in becauseyou've got capacity for it.
And in the world of commerce,the, the, the pushiest, most
aggressive salespeople tendto make the most, tend to make

(44:44):
the least sales because theyproject the most, the most need.
And need doesn't flowto where it's deserved.
It flows to wherethere's capacity for it.
So if someone feels like thatthe only reason you're doing
something is because you needthe money, they're unlikely
to give you that money.

(45:05):
But if someone feels likeyou're doing this because you
love it and you care aboutthem and you, and, and that
the result is the only thingthat matters, then the money
is just the transfer, you know,of that, of that same energy.
And if you, if you removethe need in yourself for
validation through money,through clients, through being
seen as the smartest bastardin the room, then you'll find

(45:28):
that the power is actuallyaccumulated indirectly by
giving it away and allowingother people to have theirs.
And your power is, is,is the fact that you
don't need any of it.
You don't need, you don't needany particular person to make
you feel Whole and completeon that particular day.

Keaton (45:44):
Yeah, it's so true.
I was talking to a friendearlier today about how
I, I don't even see what Ido as a business anymore.
Like there's no, there'sno ego wrapped up in it.
And I'm not like, I'm anentrepreneur and that chip on
your shoulder, you talked about.
I'm like, I just.
I found some money glitch onthe internet and it happens
to be working out for me.

(46:06):
And that feels infinitelymore powerful than having
to parade around likeI know what I'm doing.
There's a

James (46:13):
beautiful gratitude wrapped up in that, right?

Keaton (46:15):
Yeah.

James (46:16):
That I was, um, you know, that, that, that idea
that, you know, I was giventhis opportunity and, um, the,
the, the, the, everything'sworking in my favor.
And.
Here I am.
And it's meant to be.
And there's, there's a beautifulgratitude in that, which
just says I'm the luckiestbugger on earth because I

(46:36):
get to, I get to do this andthis is happening for me.

Keaton (46:39):
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's so true.
Um, so along those lines, I feellike a lot of beginners who we
may have lost already at thispoint in the conversation, but
even a lot of advanced people,all they talk about is revenue,
revenue, revenue, like, Hey, Ican help you make more money.

(47:02):
Yep.
Um, And going to that, thequality lead conversation,
something I've learned fromyou is the right people have
specific problems that thewrong people don't have and
specific desires that the,the wrong people don't have.

(47:23):
Um, for example, I wasworking with a client in the
orthodontics space and he wassaying how his orthodontist
that he loved the most, thatwas like the most qualified and
just close the most people andhad grown like two X since they
started working together on hisFacebook ads was he had gotten
more efficient over his 30years of being an orthodontist

(47:47):
and therefore he was ableto take on more patients.
And I was like, that's theperfect hook for an ad.
Are you at anexperience worth it?
Honest with that has gotten moreefficient over the years and,
um, you want to fill, fill thespots so that you're getting as
much leverage as possible forthe days you're spending in the
clinic, let's lead into that.

(48:10):
But on your end, I feel like,I feel like you've given
me permission and otherspermission to be like, yeah,
I don't have to be thinkingabout business, doing business,
having my ego wrapped upinto my business 24 seven.
In fact, it's better if I don't.
Um, and arguably a more powerfuldesire for that right person.

(48:35):
The, the orthodontist with30 years of experience, for
example, is here's how to spendmore time with your family.
Not here's how tomake more money.
Um, that reminds me of anotherhook I heard years ago that was
like, don't sell the dentist,Facebook ads, ask the dentist,
like you got to talk to thedentist about, um, Why the
hell that became a dentistand like, talk to him about

(48:59):
how to get out of that becausethey're probably miserable.
Like, even though you maynot be selling biz ops to
dentists, you need, there'sa lot of people that need a
different approach or need tobe pitched in a different way.
Does that make sense?

James (49:15):
Yeah.
So the thing I talk aboutis currencies, right?
And so there's, there'spredominantly an offer
creation, like threepretty simple currencies.
One of them is the isalmost infinite and
two of them measurable.
So there's just money, youknow, and There's op and
business coaching and evenan agency world It's you

(49:39):
are selling money, right?

Keaton (49:41):
You

James (49:42):
give me two thousand dollars a month to run your
Facebook ads and build yourfunnel and I'm gonna give
you 20, 000 a month worthof business back, right?
It's just money arbitrage.
You give me small amount Igive you a big amount as the
as the as the promise Thenthere's a time factor, which
also leads the energy factor,is that at a certain time people

(50:05):
have a feeling of enough interms of the money category
and they feel like they canmove to a time category.
They want time back, butwhat they're really doing
is wanting energy back.
So my, um, and I don't likeany of the language that we
all use around low level andhigh level and good and bad

(50:29):
clients and people, because Idon't, my, my findings is none
of those things really exist.
They're just perspective ata certain place at a certain
time with, with a particularindividual, but they're useful
in the designation of this, buthigh, high level people want
energy back more than anything.
Because we have a finite lifeand we understand we have

(50:51):
a certain amount of energy,um, life force energy and
we have a certain amount oftime to use it and we want
to use it to the best of theability of our abilities.
And then we have meaningaround the things that we
use our energy for ourselves,our family and these pieces.
So the selling of energy is,you know, to that, um, to that

(51:13):
orthodontist, we just need togive them ways to measure it.
Ways to measure energy is,um, you've been, you've been
a business for 20 years.
Um, and it used to take you,it used to take you five days
to serve 40 patients, put40 patients in the chair.
Um, and now youcan do that in two.
And then it gives them and say,and then you can spend the other

(51:35):
three days playing golf withyour family, you know, and, and
planning your retirement out.
And I'll help you plan yourretirement out and an exit
for your orthodontic businessand, um, you know, and how to
have enough cashflow for the,for the rest of your life.
And so you can haveintergenerational wealth, um,
that you pass down to yourchildren and your grandchildren.
Right.
And then they can start,then they're starting

(51:55):
to build a picture of.
Okay, I'm going to use myeffort and that I've put in
over the last 20 and thatcompetence that I've built by
being able to serve 40 patientsand half the time into the
things that matter to me andyou paint a picture of that.
And that's what copy, that'swhat copywriting does, right?
It just allows us to painta picture of the future
that doesn't exist yet forsomeone and then allowing

(52:17):
them to be relevant, um, makeit relevant to themselves.
So the, the, the low level,you know, the, the, the surface
level is, is selling money.
Um, you know, the secondarylevel is, is selling
time to some degree.
Um, and the infinite gameis, is, is, is being in the
market to sell energy and thenusing the modalities that we

(52:38):
have to, to do that and, youknow, in terms of service and
delivery, there's, there'sonly really, you know, four.
And you just mixthose modalities
based on your skillset

Keaton (52:53):
for modalities to sell energy.
You mean

James (52:55):
for modalities to serve.
So we've got coaching,consulting, mentorship.
Um, and service delivery, right?
And service delivery is just,I'll do this thing for you.
And it is nothing else.
I'll do this thing for you.
I will spend 10, 000 a monthon Facebook ads for you to this
funnel, and this will happen.

(53:17):
You will have leads in yourcalendar and you call them
on the telephone, right?
And it, and itkind of ends there.
We wrap a lot of stuff aroundit, but service delivery is just
doing something for somebody.
Uh, mentorship, mentorship is.
This is how I would do it.
So my high level mentorshipis people asking me how I

(53:38):
think about things and howI've done things in the
past that have got successthat they want to replicate.
And I say, this is how I do it.
This is how I think about it.
Consulting is tellingpeople how to do something.
And then in the modernparlance of consulting is
it's doing it with them.
So your traces of knowledgeare left after you stop

(54:02):
consulting your system, yourideas, Your philosophy is
left there because you'vedone it with them and it's
been embedded in the business.
And coaching is help someonesee that they've already
got the things inside themto do the required action.
Um, help someone see and givethem insight enough to actually
get them to do the thing thatthey need to do, that they're
telling you that that willultimately move them forward.

(54:24):
And we switch betweenthose modalities naturally.
Like a lot of agencies doa ton of consulting, but
they don't get paid for it.
You know, and that's agigantic opportunity for
almost every agency to havea consulting level in their
business that just doesconsulting, you know, and
actually monetizes it becauseit's very high margin and

(54:44):
high value work and business.
Um, and so people, Iunconsciously do change
between those modalitieswhen they're, they're being a
coach or even being an agencyowner or being a consultant.
But those modalities, whenyou actually understand
the, the, what they areand how to deploy them.
That it opens up a world ofopportunity about how you

(55:05):
can actually use them eitheras individual products.
Um, sell them as individualproducts, but also serve
people better in that time.
You know, you've been on my, onmy group calls, um, you know,
with folks and I, and I askedpermission to consult to them.
Like if I've got time and space,I'll coach someone because that
will leave the longest lastinglegacy because they'll, they'll

(55:26):
be unable to do it themselves.
If we don't have time andthey're, and they're floundering
around and it's like, can I justconsult to you and tell you the
answer and you go and do it.
99 times out of a hundred,they say yes, right?
Because they're lookingto, they're looking for
the life raft out of it.
But when you use thesemodalities, you can serve
people a lot better, butin the process of that, you
serve yourself a lot better,

Keaton (55:47):
you serve yourself a lot better, is that what you said?
Yeah.
Because you're, because why,why are you serving yourself
better with those modalities?

James (55:58):
Because you're setting the correct expectations,
you know, and life in a,in a, in a human world
is about expectations.
And if you don't, if you.
If you coach someone to dosomething, but you're actually
telling them what they wantand what to do, and you think
you're coaching them, butyou're actually consulting

(56:18):
to them, you're setting anexpectation that this thing
is going to be right forthem, rather than allowing
to discover it themselves.
And that will downstream havean effect on their application
of that piece, their, um,their, their results from
it, and ultimately theirdesire to continue it.
A lot of people have told alot of people to do things
in the, in the hope that itwas in their best interests.

(56:41):
that turned out to be damaging.
And if you correct, if youset the correct expectations
with people and yourself,then everybody is clean
and clear going forward.
And there's no overhanginto areas that, that can,
you know, then, then blowback to, um, blow back
in either party's lives.

Keaton (57:02):
Got it.
It's, uh, I think a bigtheme of you in general is
like self confrontation.
Then self honesty, likeyou lie to yourself, you'll
lie to your clients, you'lllie to everyone around you.
And there's, you're alwaysgoing to be living with that
cognitive dissonance untilyou have to face the music one
day and realize that it's beenyou, the bowling ball crashing

(57:26):
down everything in its way.

James (57:30):
Yeah, that, that's, that's the benefit that I
have of being old, right?
I'm a, I'm an old man in a youngman's game, you know, in the
sense that I can, um, I can seewhat's coming because I've been
there, you know, and, and thoseplaces and I, and I provide a
huge amount of value to peoplein my world because of that,
because I, I can see over thehorizon because we've already,

(57:51):
I've already stepped over thereand there'll be monsters, um,
and I can tell you not to goover that one, but maybe we
can guide you towards thisone, which might be preferable.

Keaton (58:00):
So how does somebody get to the point of being
able to solve the, the energyproblems like the, what I
have in my mind is the agencyowner that's saying, you know,
make, give me little money.
I give you big money.
But there's a big asteriskthere, which is you have to
work 10 more hours a week.

(58:21):
To get this next level of money.
And once the client realizesthat they quickly cancel
because they don't want tosift through all the, the bad
leads, et cetera, et cetera.
They didn't realize allthis stuff came with it.
Um, can you speak to that?
Like, how do I.

(58:41):
How do I become the person thatcan consult the orthodontist
on, uh, the retirement strategyand that whole thing, which
feels like playing in Disneylandcompared to 10 of these Facebook
leads never answered the phone.
And like, I'm canceling rightnow, which does not feel
like anything like Disneylandto most agency owners and

(59:03):
part of the reason thatthey're getting burned out.

James (59:05):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, I mean, I'll, I'll,I'll, I'm going to, I'm
going to default to thestrategic answer for this.

Keaton (59:13):
But,

James (59:13):
um, one of the major things that I help and nudge
and encourage and occasionallyforce people to do is sell
a, sell a future identity.
Um, it's very difficult forpeople to do things if they
can't see what they lead to.

Keaton (59:29):
And

James (59:29):
it's, it's very difficult for people to ask people to
change in terms of behaviorally,unless they can have a, some
sense of who they change into,you know, and ultimately become.
Um, and in the agency world,there's a lot of talk about
what you can do for people,but there's very little talk
about what that actuallyadds and what that actually
brings to them in terms ofat that, that life level.

(59:52):
And that's justabout abstracting and
understanding that.
If you're an orthodontistwho, um, you know, in this
initial period, if you work anextra 10 hours a week, in the
future, you'll get 20 hoursa week back to play golf.
That's a differentconversation, right?
It's putting the truthon the table and saying,
as you'll agree, Mr.
Business owner, thisrequires investment.

(01:00:13):
We, we requireinvestment of time.
We require investment of money,but you'll get this back in
multiples down the track becausewe elevate you from operator
to chairman in the business.
And he's going.
Ah, I'm an operator right now.
I'd love to be a chairman,but I need to invest
something in the way.
So it is getting the truth onthe table and saying, these
are the things that you want.

(01:00:35):
These are the, this is theprice we have to pay to some
degree in the short term,but this is the payoff.
Because when you become the,the, the, the orthodontist
chairman, um, you know, then,then they start to go, yeah,
I'm just chairman of theboard and I'm playing golf.
And, you know, I'm not, I'm notthen in there day to day pushing
the buttons and chasing thepayments and, and those pieces.

(01:00:58):
So the identity layer in, um,in marketing, if you like,
and in terms of positioning,um, is one that's often
neglected because we focuson the functional things that
people do in the short term.
But when you start introducingthat future identity piece
about selling people on and,you know, indicating who they
become, not only do you convertmore people in the front end

(01:01:21):
because you're taking away therisk of change, But you also get
better buy in in the applicationof that delivery because
everybody's agreed that there'sa bigger payoff at the end
because everybody's up leveledin the process of doing it.

Keaton (01:01:34):
Got it.
So it's about figuring outwhat that vision is so that you
can paint it for your client.

James (01:01:40):
It's not figuring out, it's giving it to them
because the brutal truth ismost people lack vision for
themselves and for their lives.
But if you can paint apicture that's desirable
to them at least lead themtoward the promised land
and they understand it.
And you know what?
The Elfodontist might findthat he starts playing golf,
but he's better off, um, thathe actually loved, you know,
volunteering at the dog shelter.

(01:02:02):
But you gave him the space andthe time to do that, but via,
you know, a mutual investmentand you both, and you both
committed to play the game.
Um, so, so giving them afuture identity is about
spelling that out about whatthey become and who they
become and then allowing that,allowing that to unfold and
allowing them to discover it.
You know, I have a conceptcalled the sovereign consultant,

(01:02:22):
you know, I have that said,I'm selling people on being a
sovereign consultant who makesa million dollars profit a
year and two days a week with65 clients or less, right?
You know what, when you getthere, how you do it, what
you want to enjoy in theteams, if you want to work
three days a week, go for it.
But at least we got to it,at least we agreed on the,

(01:02:43):
on the, on the end point.
And, and we both understandthat the map isn't the terrain.
You know, and the system Igive people is, is like a
coloring book that you buy.
I give you guidelines andboundaries and you know,
don't color outside thatline, but the colors you
put in, in, in, in betweenare completely up to you.

Keaton (01:03:03):
Yeah.
With help, of course.
Sorry?

James (01:03:07):
With, with help, of course, and guidance.
Yeah, yeah, of course.

Keaton (01:03:11):
Um, final question there.
How do you put in youroutreach or your content?
Um, like I'm thinking of someonewho messaged me last week.
Hey Keaton, if I, if Icould add 50, 000 a month
to what you're doing.
50, 000 a monthin your business.

(01:03:33):
And in the next 60 days,like my, my immediate
thought, and I would considermyself, maybe someone who's
dealing with the higherlevel issues at this point.
My immediate thought is thatsounds exhausting, whatever
it is you're pitching,like, I don't really want
it because I don't need it.
And I think it goes backto what you're saying.
Like the more, the more youdon't need the money, the.

(01:03:57):
More money will come toyou, but that's the same.
Like the, the clients thatpeople really want are the
people that don't, thataren't desperate for the
extra 10 K or the extra 50K they're desperate for.
Some sort of need inside them.
How do you, what'syour advice to someone?
Just like a, an easy wayto start implementing that

(01:04:21):
in their outreach or theircontent or their ads.

James (01:04:24):
Outreach is a, is an interesting one because most
people that their goal is todrive a conversation to do some
convincing and some showing.
So if I was to do cold outreachand if you ever catch me doing
cold outreach, come over hereand do something terrible to me.
Um, but if you, if I everdid cold outreach, I would

(01:04:45):
be sending it to someonewho I believed would be the
ideal person that I coulddeliver a result for that
I'd already done delivered.
So if I was demonstrating toyou that I could give you 50,
000 extra a month and get you 15hours a week back, I would send
you a demonstration of that.

(01:05:06):
I would send you ademonstration of this is
Bob, he's an orthodontist

Keaton (01:05:12):
and

James (01:05:13):
we got him an extra 50, 000 a month while cutting
his working hours a bit.
And I would demonstrate Bob ona camera that was chilled and
having a natural conversationabout telling his experience
and doing it rather thansaying I can do this for you.
And the frame is 50, 000.
that a lot of peopletry to be is the hero

(01:05:34):
of someone's journey.
But if you're, if you makethem, if you make your clients
the hero and you the guide,it's funny how your, your,
the quality of what you doand who you work with goes
up dramatically becauseyou've allowed people their
own power and you've allowedthem to tell their story.
And then you're just invitingmore people to, you know, obtain

(01:05:56):
that power and tell that story.
So.
So much of the outreach I getis just terrible because someone
wants to tell me something thatthey don't know if I don't,
if I know it or not already.
I get all ones all the time.
Would you like to make,would you get to 20k a month?
And I'm like, I would havehad to screw up a lot of stuff
right now to get to 20k a month.

(01:06:18):
I've been goingreally far backwards.
But it, you know, that's whatcold outreach has become, but
a lot more, I think, you know,a lot more demonstrating, a
lot more showing, and a lotless telling, and a lot more
force would get people aheck of a lot further with,
greater people that are goingto propel them a heck of a
lot further than they thinkthey're even capable of now.

Keaton (01:06:41):
Yeah.
The word demonstration iswhat was coming to mind as
you were discussing all ofthat, demonstrating your
content, demonstrating yourads, demonstrating your
outreach, and you don't haveto sell like it's just not.

James (01:06:55):
I, I'm not the first person to say this, but changing
your, your content from how,how to, to how I, or how Bob
or how Keaton or how Rob didthis will have a unbelievably
profound effect for a smallchange in the response that

(01:07:16):
you get to that communication.

Keaton (01:07:19):
Yeah.
And those stories are,it goes back to like Sam
Ovens interviews backin the day, like those.
Those were more valuable thanthe Samothin's course because
I just got, I was like, oh,they did this tiny thing at
this moment and that I'm inthat exact moment right now.
You know, the course was helpfultoo, but the, the epiphany

(01:07:40):
bridge, even though it's not anepiphany bridge, the epiphanies
that come from the conversationsand the, the case studies are
infinitely more powerful thanjust the principles sometimes.

James (01:07:52):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, I would humbly say thatpeople learn more from modeling
me than what I teach them.

Keaton (01:08:03):
Yeah.
Yeah.

James (01:08:05):
Yeah.
And anybody who's a parentwill understand this.
It's, you know, very eitherdirectly or instinctually
that you are what you doand what you are in front
of your children, much morethan what you say to them.
Get off that phone asyou spend six hours on
your iPhone doesn't work.

(01:08:26):
Get off your phone whenyou're not on your phone.
Um, and they can, they canobserve that is, is, is the
way to get that behavior in.
And it's the same with clients.
Treat them like children.
Is that the message?
Okay, sure.
Let's go with that.

Keaton (01:08:45):
It makes, yeah, it makes me think of multiple
times in your community thisyear, I'm like, I'm just excited
to see where he takes this.
Like I'm going to learn,I'm going to learn
by the start stuff.
He starts implementingthe stuff.
He stops implementing howhe switches this around.
I can get on the calls.
I can go through the courseand the workshops, but.
Yeah.
The demonstration islike, Oh, that's cool.

(01:09:05):
I didn't think of that.
And it sticks to, itsticks more than the
conversations we've had,

James (01:09:11):
you

Keaton (01:09:11):
know?

James (01:09:12):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I, I just ran, you know, anexperiment over the last three
weeks in terms of an offer,you know, and next week I'll be
breaking that down about whatreally happened and what, uh,
what it actually looks like.
And then there's still theunknown piece about what that,
you know, and an offer drivenmodel, what you want is for that
offer to lead organically andnaturally to the next offer.

(01:09:33):
You know, and so far thatoffer from the first offer
to the second offer convertsto 50 percent and that's a
big breakthrough Right, youknow getting people to give
you three hundred dollars andfifty percent of them giving
you three thousand you know,within three weeks after that
is a significant breakthrough.
But on the surface, people cancopy the 300 and many people

(01:09:53):
have, but the next level is,oh, how did that actually work?
And what actually happenedbehind, behind the scenes?
And what is the, what are thesubjective things in that?
What kind of people came throughit and what are they doing
and what are the problems andwhat, what they're learning?
So yeah, the model, the modelinghas multiple layers as well in
terms of, um, because a lot ofpeople delude themselves that
they have, perfect information.

(01:10:16):
They see that person doing thatand they're going to funnel
hack them and do that, butthey don't actually understand
the outcomes downstream.
And so modeling, modeling ismulti stage and also has a
lot of depth to it as well.

Keaton (01:10:26):
Okay.
I know you need to takethe puppy to the beach.
So I'll, I'll closewith this question.

James (01:10:31):
Big day.

Keaton (01:10:32):
Uh, yeah, big day.
Expectations.
You alluded to this earlier.
That's, it's the downfallof this space because it's
not about, you know, it'snot about that the results
weren't actually good.
It's just that somebody wasexpecting something different
most times because you toldthat to them or you implied it

(01:10:55):
through a, maybe a testimonialor some other kind of marketing
that you're talking about.
However, you still have thisbig vision you give your clients
and that's the ideal thateveryone's striving towards.
How is that different from.
Go, go from zero to ahundred K and X timeframe.

(01:11:17):
And why do you do it that way?

James (01:11:19):
The purple book, um, got a lot of people to
escalate offers to make bigpromises and repeatedly over
and over and, you know, overa decade of doing this thing.
Um, I found smallpromises with big vision.
would outsell and outdeliver, um, and over

(01:11:44):
deliver on expectationsmuch more than anything.
And so the, the, if you workhard on the big vision about
what happens, what they become,and you paint a vivid picture
of the future, then you're onlysaying that the small promise
that you're going to make isthe first step on that journey.
And then, you know, togetheryou'll work out the terrain.

(01:12:04):
So for a lot of people, Formost people, this is much more
effective than big promises,because big promises are just by
definition harder to keep, andthere's more variables in them.
But small promises are easierto deliver on, easier to start,
and, and, and I found easierto sell as well, because If

(01:12:27):
you use an example, if you goto, since we're talking about
orthodontists, or why not?
If you go to an orthodonticclinic that's getting, you
know, two leads a month, andyou say that I can get you 40
booked qualified appointmentsevery single month, you
know, on autopilot withouttouching a single thing, that
experience doesn't feel closeto what they're doing now.

(01:12:50):
It feels like it comes witha lot of baggage and a lot
of stretch and a lot morework and a lot more stress.
Right.
But if you say you're at twoinbound leads, two inbound
leads a month, and I'm goingto get you to four, that feels
like a positive first step,you know, and then ultimately
we're moving towards a statewhere you're doing, you're

(01:13:12):
getting this many inbound leads,but you're only working this
time, and then we can start tointroduce different currencies.
So it's about understandingthat a small promise is easy
to keep and easy to sell at thebeginning and easy to deliver.
But it's a small promise ona step into a larger vision.

Keaton (01:13:27):
And what's your small promise?

James (01:13:28):
I'll get you an offer that you can sell, um, with
your thumbs on, on a Google doc.
And if we, if we do itto one person, we can, we
can do it with a hundred.

Keaton (01:13:36):
Got it.
And then the big vision isthe two hours or two days a
week, million dollars a year.
What does that mean

James (01:13:42):
to you?
Where do you want to go with it?
Et cetera.
You know, let's, let's getsome results together first.
Let's, let's put an offertogether that you can sell,
you know, in ways that, thatare effortless to you compared
to maybe what you've andhow you've done it before.
Um, if we get one, if we getone, it's their belief that we
can get two, ten and a hundred.

Keaton (01:14:01):
Yeah.
It's like your, your weeklypricing thing, which is
just lower the now numberinstead of a thousand a
month, it's 250 a week.
So people can get in, but it'sthe same with believability,
like lower the now.
Believability.
Like, do you think we couldhave an offer that you're
ready to sell next week?
Yeah, that's believable.
It's actually what I wantversus pie in the sky.

(01:14:25):
Guarantee a hundred Ka month in two months.
And you know, nobody hitsit because they didn't do
the 12 things every singleday on the guarantee.
The title is all this

James (01:14:37):
time.

Keaton (01:14:38):
Do you, yeah.
Do you get people asking like,Cause I struggled with this
when I, I like defined thebig vision, which for me was
like, it was like 200 K a year.
Uh, you're working 20 hours aweek on your agency and like,
you're taking home 200 K a year.
And I would get a lot ofpeople being like, well, how
many people have done that?

(01:14:59):
And, um, you know, isthat something, like,
how do you do it?
What's the model?
Like they're, they're so.
They get fixated on thisvision as if it's the gospel
truth when really it's justlike, look, if it's one 50
for you, not 200, that's fine.
Do you get that kind of thing?
And, and if so, whatdo you say to it?

James (01:15:20):
I don't get it at all, but I have a, I have
a distinct advantage thatI am my own case study.
So if I put my own mask onfirst and do fun things with
fun people and make lots ofmoney, I just say to people,
do you want something likethis or your version of it?

(01:15:41):
And they go, okay.
And if you don't have thatadvantage, which is extremely
meta, like do what you teachand teach what you do, then
you only need one example.
You know, I've, I've seenplenty of cases where someone's
just got one ideal case studythat they leveraged to get a
hundred more of those peopleas the ideal case study.

(01:16:03):
So the magical number inthese, in the, in the course of
demonstration is usually one.
All right.
Cause one leads to two.
Yeah.
And if you can demonstrate thatyou can, that you can do it
once, and you can demonstrate,you understand the principles
of success and that, and thestrategic level of mechanisms
and the vision level of anidentity that you, that you

(01:16:26):
paint a picture of, thenyou will have more results
and more case studies thanyou can shake your stick at,
but it all started with one.
And, um, You know, I've got richby getting other people rich.
It's, it's, it's, and the moreI, I worked to that ideal and

(01:16:46):
then layer enjoyment over thetop of it, then the better
it all works for everybody.

Keaton (01:16:52):
Very cool.
Um, okay.
So you have a book, telleverybody where they can
find the book and thenwe'll end this thing.

James (01:17:00):
The sovereign consultant.
com.
It's a book that will tellyou how to build a million
dollar consulting businessin two days, a week or less.
And I'll show you it's, it'sa, it's a, it's a proper book.
Not one of these, like,Hey, here's some vague ideas
and, uh, buy my next courtnine 97 course to do it.

(01:17:20):
It actually tells you howto do it for 10 bucks,

Keaton (01:17:23):
but it's, it's also not that long, right?
It's like 68 pages.
Oh, wow.
68.

James (01:17:29):
And it's got a couple of videos on the other side of it
showing exactly how to do it.
So, uh, People can getthe how to for 10 or a
hundred thousand, right?
And, and, and a lotof stops in between.
Um, but I'm always like,this is how to do it.
Um, you know, I give away theideas and, and then people
will take them where they,where they need to take them.
And, and some, some chooseto get my help along the way.

Keaton (01:17:51):
Love it, James.
Thanks so much.
Enjoy the walk on the beachand we'll see you next time.

James (01:17:56):
Thank you, sir.