SMMA Operations Expert Explains How To Scale To $2M/yr (Proven Framework) w/ Brett Linenkohl

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Brett (00:00):
A year later, and she says, Hey, I went from

(00:02):
500 ARR to a million ARR.
And then within threemonths after that, she
went to 2 million ARR.
Yeah, we got up to like 700K.
It was nothing crazyspecial, but just a decent
little six figure business.
My thing is going as hardand as far as I can on
only what can be proved.
Like you have people onyour team that really
should not be there.
Factor taking you backwards,going and solving problems

(00:23):
and then finding the painsand what I found was like,
Brett, what's up, man?
What is up, man?
Good to have you on.
You too.
It's funny.
We like crossed paths andthen we kind of went away
and we kind of this, that,and then what a week ago,
kind of reconnected and time

Keaton (00:39):
over too.
Yeah.
It's good to see you.
And, uh, yeah, I appreciatelike, I may cut this out of
what I'm saying, but like alot of people reach out and
they're like, let's hang out.
And I never know if they'relike going to be weird
in real life or whatever.
So, uh, I preferthe group setting.
So, um, I know I like waslike, Hey, let's hang out.
I was like, yeah, butI never committed.

(01:00):
And then it was perfect.
I was like, okay,this guy's normal.

Brett (01:02):
Yeah.
it's funny.
Like I have a bad habit maybe oflike my own, like I'm, I'm what?
Pushing 40.
So I'm just like, yeah,let's, so I'm, I'm always
kind of grunt on it causeI'm just like living.
Uh, so rightfully so.
Yeah.
It could have been creepy, butno, uh, I'm glad it worked out.
It was cool.
Like you were sitting, I waslike, oh, keep, uh, yeah.
Yeah.
And so

Keaton (01:22):
it's perfect.
Little like local business,uh, meet up here in Charlotte
for people who don't know.
Yeah.
Um, but let's talk about you.
So you are a formerbaseball guru turned

Brett (01:35):
operations specialist.
Yeah.
I mean, you could saythat for me, it was, I
think just, uh, I'm justa natural curious person.
Right.
So yeah, when it came tobaseball, uh, which I guess
we can go right into, uh, uh,yeah, you, you said, uh, for
those uninformed, everybody'suninformed, so it's informed.

(01:57):
Yeah, man, uh, so in my 20s,so I, I did my masters in
child psych and counseling,believe it or not, that was
at Hopkins, in Baltimore.
Um, and yeah, like, I playedbaseball, saw kids playing,
so I was like, oh, that'dbe cool, so I walked out.
Um, I can be outgoing.
I'm actually an introvert,but I can be, so I was
just like, Hey, can I help?

(02:18):
And that snowballedinto one thing.
And next soon I started rentingout, you know, stadiums and
throwing camps and it just kindof turned into this business.
So yeah, I was aguru at the highest.
We were doing like campsfor Manny Machado and you
know, MLB, Rob Manfred.
I don't know.
Are you a baseball fan?

Keaton (02:34):
Oh,

Brett (02:34):
okay.
So this meansnothing to you, but.
Um, yeah, so, so did that, gotto really speak on stages, and
then, um, yeah, that was great.
So built something reallycool out of that, it was
a lot of fun, um, but thecoolest part of that was,
um, yeah, it was somethingI didn't even really expect.
Was, uh, like, I got to a point,at some point, I was like numb.

(02:57):
I was working like80 hour weeks.
It was insane.
I was like trying to appeaseevery client, every customer,
because I couldn't let it go.
Um, and a really good friendof mine that actually got
me in the digital marketingworld, um, gave me a book.
I read it.
I read another.
I read another.
And I found I kind ofhad this natural knack
for systemizing stuff.

(03:18):
And yeah, I gotthat business down.
I was working an hour a week.
Mwah.
And it's like, yeah, whatever.
But how I did it is one meeting,everyone in the meeting, all
issues, everything agenda.
Um, and it was cool.
We were pumping it out.
Um, but, uh, yeah, so that,that's kind of how that went.
That was my twenties.
Um, COVID hit.

(03:39):
Let me shut that business down.
Fresh start in Charlotte.
Um, and then I got intodigital marketing with that

Keaton (03:46):
buddy.
So the baseball thing wasin Baltimore the whole time.
It was.
Yes.
So.
And you had like all yourkids were born there and
then you guys relocated here.
Yeah.
So two of my kids,

Brett (03:57):
Baltimore and then the surprise ones, I got twins.
Oh yeah.
That's right.

Keaton (04:02):
Yeah.
Yeah.
We'll get into that.

Brett (04:04):
Yeah, man.
So I honestly, I have noidea really to where to
start, but, That, that'skind of a quick preview.

Keaton (04:13):
Yeah.
So the, at its peak, canyou talk revenue numbers
on that baseball business?
What was it doing and like,were you able to sell off
parts of it or it literallyjust shut down overnight?

Brett (04:21):
No, it was pretty much overnight shut
down, unfortunately.
Um, so yeah, we gotup to like 700 K.
It was nothing crazy special.
So um, yeah.
But just a decent littlesix figure business,
running camps, lessons.
I'd hire, you know, instructors.
Um, so yeah, it was cool.
And the, really the learnlessons out of it, like being
in that seat as you know.

(04:42):
Um, yeah, I mean, that's,that's kind of what happened.
Nice.
And what was the marginon something like that?
Yeah, it was really nice becauseI would go to high schools and,
uh, yeah, just rent free space.
Sometimes free, sometimes, yeah,so, yeah, at the best, probably
like 60 70 percent margins.
Nice, yeah.
Yeah, labor is a big one.

(05:04):
Yeah, high school kids.
Yeah.
That's what we used.

Keaton (05:06):
Okay.
Um, don't takethis the wrong way.
It reminds me of like mylittle cousin who has like
a daycare over the summer.
Oh yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Go with it.
It's just like herparents backyard and
like, it's all margin.
She does like arts and craftsfor the kids, it costs 20
bucks for the supplies.
Similar vibe, right?

Brett (05:24):
It is.
I mean, you gotta considerthere's a lot of like 50
million dollar businessesthat are running on debt.
Mm hmm.
So they're actuallyworse than her.
Yeah.
You know.

Keaton (05:33):
Yeah, that's true.
That's a really good point.
Hey guys, just jumping in hereto give you a quick word on
our sponsor, High Level, beforewe get back to the interview.
If you don't know already,High Level is the top sales
and marketing solution forany business, but particularly
agency owners or anybodythat needs a software
product to resell to theirexisting customer base.
It has everything you need tocapture, nurture, and close

(05:55):
leads for marketing clients.
And the best part is High Levelbelieves in not taxing the
agencies on its platform soyou can get unlimited clients
for one low flat monthly fee.
The best features includea CRM, funnel, website,
and email builders, coursehosting platform, robust
marketing automation builder,a consolidated chat stream
with WhatsApp, email, SMS,Instagram DMs and Facebook DMs,

(06:18):
reputation management, socialmedia, posting, tracking, and
analytics, and so much more.
And as if that wasn't enough,HighLevel is fully white
labeled, meaning that youcan take the platform and
put your own brand on thedesktop and mobile app and
resell it to your industryfor whatever price you want.
Essentially, what HighLevelhas done is brought the bar
for starting a software companyway lower so normal people

(06:38):
like you and I Can help ourclients with an amazingly
robust software without payinghundreds of thousands of
dollars in development costs.
I am not kidding when I sayhands down high level is my
favorite software of all time.
It has been integral tomy success with my agency.
It helped me increase myclient's results and retention
and I use it every singleday for my own business.
And if you sign up for highlevel today, not only will
you get a 30 day free trial,which is not available

(07:01):
on their website, but youwill get all of the bonuses
listed at it's keaton.
com forward slash mastermind,which gets you support templates
and courses to kickstart yourhigh level journey and get
those first few clients orscale to your next few clients.
If you're already a highlevel customer, you can also
get all of those bonuses byupgrading to the next highest
plan underneath my link.
Instructions for thatare also at it's keaton.

(07:22):
com forward slash mastermind.
So thank you.
What, um, you say an houra week, like you weren't
responding to anything onany other day of the week?
And were you justlike meditating for
eight hours a day?
Like what did youdo during that time?

Brett (07:36):
Dude, it's actually funny.
So, um, I mean, the realanswer obviously is I was
doing what I wanted to do.
So yes, I would goout and do stuff.
But if I didn't want todo it, I didn't have to.
It's got it.
It could.

Keaton (07:46):
Yeah.

Brett (07:47):
Um, but, um, no, man, it's actually really weird.
And maybe you can attest tothis or maybe some of your
listeners, it's like, yeah,There does come a point where
you don't know what to do.
Um, there kind of comes a pointtoo, where you kind of feel like
you're eating cardboard becausethere is like kind of did it.
So you're, you feellike you're good.
Um, I don't know, doyou ever have that?

(08:07):
Have you ever felt that whereyou're just like, what next?

Keaton (08:10):
Uh, in some ways, I always, I've, I think I
see it coming more oftennow because I've had a
couple of moments like that.
And I tend to not getto that point because I
insert some more stuff Iwant to be doing before it

Brett (08:24):
happens.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So we, I, yeah.
Lay the tracks quickly.
Yeah.
No, there, there's been timeswhere I laid down myself and
I've thought like, boy, didI just lay that thing down
because I was bored and I wantedto get onto the next thing.
Um, but.
Yeah, it's, uh,anyway, it's a journey
and this is somethingI've talked with others.

(08:45):
You know, you know,Magikai, right?
Did you know Magikai?
Oh, maybe that was anotherof the friend that was
there we talked about.
Well, anyway, him and I talkedabout this at one point.
Wasn't happened.
Yeah, it

Keaton (08:56):
wasn't.
It was meant.
Okay, so you're working like,realistically, like 20 hours a
week, but maybe an hour, likean hour of that is the meeting
where you address everythingand 20 hours is just you like
supervising, hanging out withpeople, building community,
whatever you want to do,would you say that's accurate?

Brett (09:12):
That's accurate, yeah, that, that's definitely,
um, yeah, that's whereit, where it was, yeah.

Keaton (09:17):
Okay, and then, so, COVID happens overnight, do you
like take a little sabbaticalor are you like, Yeah.
So you weren't stressed outof your mind and you need
something in a week, uh, thatyou're going to transition into.

Brett (09:30):
No, no.
Thankfully then Iwas pretty good.
So yeah, I took probably likesix months where I was just kind
of like, what am I going to do?

Keaton (09:37):
Nice.

Brett (09:38):
Um, and yeah, it was, I mean, that time, what
a weird time it was, liketruly everyone inside, like
that's one to look back on.
That was definitely strange,but yeah, no parents were going
to let their kids go to camps.

Keaton (09:52):
Um,

Brett (09:52):
so, so yeah, we, we kind of, I took a, took a minute.
Yeah.
Um, but yeah, so, you know,I think, um, just moving
to where I did go, right?
So, um, always I was reallylike, I think what I found
coming out of that was that wasmy talent because I tell other
people about it and they'd belike, well, how did you do that?

(10:13):
Say, well, you know.
Like the system of laying outprocesses of catching things
that, uh, you're not aware of.
Right.
So many entrepreneurs and theyjust do things, but there's
no way to put it in a littlePokemon ball that you can
pull it back out later and,and have someone else use.

Keaton (10:28):
Yeah.

Brett (10:29):
Um, so, so yeah, so I kind of rode that wave and,
um, yeah, uh, this buddyof mine, so he's a, a, a, a
genius marketer, this, thisbuddy of mine, um, he lived on
a little yacht in Baltimore.
And we would get together.
We'd talk.
Um, and he had, you know,a, a digital marketing
company for roofs.
Um, yeah, he was crushingit, but he kept complaining.

(10:52):
He's like, my teamis out of whack.
Uh, you know, everytime I try to do this,
something else breaks.
And so, you know, I was like,yeah, let's see what we can do.
So I volunteered for himfor three months and just
kind of got my hands dirty.
And yeah, in those threemonths we got, um, got him
free, sent him on a vacation,we doubled the revenue.
That's it.
Um, and I was like, yeah, cool.

(11:14):
All right, thisworks for everybody.
Maybe this is a talent.
Maybe I should write it.

Keaton (11:17):
Okay.

Brett (11:18):
And what do you say doubled revenue?
Like a hundred K to200 K a month or?
Yeah.
Well, let's see.
So it was more like60, 70 at the time.
Love it.
Whatever that method is.
Yeah.
One

Keaton (11:29):
21.
Yeah.
Okay.
Um, and we'll get more intolike the mechanics of what
you actually did with himand others, but give us a
few other success stories.
Like what's the, the archetypalperson that you meet?
What are they dealing with?
And on the other end, whatare some results you've been
able to create with this?

Brett (11:48):
Yeah.
I mean the archetype.
So, um, I think reallyevery entrepreneur seems
to come to this point,like you're overstressed,
you're overwhelmed.
You can't sleep.
You go to bed thinkingabout what do I need to do?
Um, things popping up, thosefires from clients, um,
and, and, and just problemsin general, like things

(12:09):
that get, uh, I don't know,overwhelming complexity.
Um, and I would say especiallynow people with teams, but even
individuals, even individualsgrowing their own thing, um,
getting in their own way.
It's like, yeah,there's a way out.
Um, so it's, it's my jobto find it, give them that
insight, find out the problems.
Um, so that's typicallywho I work with.

Keaton (12:30):
Yeah.

Brett (12:31):
Um, yeah, wins.
Well let's see.
So.
Um, look, I, I thinkevery, every client is
a little bit different.
Um, and as I was, we weretalking about a little bit,
I think, um, that's whereit's like the complexities
of business go so deep inevery single business, right?
It's like what you know,as the entrepreneur, uh,
to this point, it's, it'sa, how you've set it up.

(12:54):
It's your, you know, yourteam, what do they know the
vernacular, what's the systems,what's our tech stack, um, you
know, what's the clients withthe expectations of clients.
So that, plus many others.
Um, you change one thing andeverything else, you know,
uh, can change as well.
So it's really unique tothe client of what is their
biggest, hairiest problem.

(13:15):
You know, what, what,what is their water in
their desert right now?
Um, and so you kind of haveto trace all that back.
You kind of have to getan understanding of all
until you can have aclear plan to move ahead.
Um, yeah, so that, that'skind of the world I live in.
It's, it's a fun puzzle.

Keaton (13:31):
Yeah.
Can you give us somerecent examples?
Like, what was thebusiness and what was
the monetary or lifestyleoutcome for the founder?
Yeah.
At the end of working together?

Brett (13:43):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So most recent, right nowI am working with, um, a
digital marketing company andshe's in tree care service.
She's like a unicorn, man.
Like she knows everything.
Um, so going in, uh, literallythe second call we did,
um, she was like screaming,crying, yelling on the
phone that this can't go on.
I can't do this anymore.

(14:04):
And I know we've all probablyhad those moments at times,
so she, you know, she wasdoing it in front of me.
Um, yeah, it was just kind ofheartbreaking hearing that.
Um, and it was cool tohear her voice that, but,
but also heartbreaking.
So, um, that's where we started.
That was about five months ago.
Um, and I guess somemore of her situation.
So I worked with her on aconsulting basis back in

(14:25):
whatever, late last year,like November, maybe earlier
than that, like a year ago.
Um, got some things in place.
It was good.
We got on the right track.
So she calls me a year later andshe says, Hey, I went from 500.
Uh, a RR to, uh, a million a RR.
And then within threemonths after that, she
went to 2 million a RR.
And she was like,I'm like dying.

(14:47):
Mm.
Um, yeah.
So she pulled me back in.
That's when we had that chat.
She was, she was struggling.
Um, and, um, yeah, I guessthe easiest way for her, um,
we just basically put in teammembers that covered, uh,
basically installed departments.

Keaton (15:03):
Mm-Hmm.
.

Brett (15:03):
Yeah.
Put in people.
Yeah, she was doinglike 19 jobs, dude.
Wow.
Dude, 19 jobs.
And yeah, in content writingalone, she was, there were
five people we had to put in,but it was just a systematic,
uh, you know, um, yeah, like,like, what are you doing?
Why are you doing it?
Let's label all of theminto responsibilities.

(15:24):
And then punting thatoff, finding the right
skillset to plug that hole,getting them up to speed
and then letting it fly.
So yeah, we placedabout 17 people so far
with her organization.
We've got a couple morestill we're trying to put,
um, And the result is, yeah,she does not work until 3 p.
m.
every single day.
Nice.
Um, yep, that's a huge one because

(15:44):
she's an early riser.
Um, she didn't do Pilates,the assistant I put in there,
it said first quarter ofbusiness Friday Pilates.
So she has an instructorcoming over doing that.
Oh, what else dowe have her doing?
See the hard part forme too, Keaton, is like,
like, torture for me is writingdown or funny, like remembering

(16:06):
anything I've done legitimately.
Like I hate it.
I just like solving it, closingthe loop, moving to the next,
you know, that's kind ofwhat drives me, so, um, yeah,
but we've done a lot there.
We found some reallygood talent, um, Yeah.
And something thatalso may apply.
It's like what I found doingthis, um, so often people
like, uh, do you have a team?

(16:28):
Small team.
Yeah.
How many people?
Uh, like two.
Okay.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And it makes sense with yours.
She does everything.
She's a boutique, you know,marketing for our industry.
So, um, yeah, man, it's, it'scrazy how often teams have drag.
Like you have people on yourteam that really should not
be there, um, that in factare taking you backwards,
either emotional vampiringyou and your team, or.

(16:51):
Gaslighting.
Um, so there was a lot ofthat to root out that I
think was a good result.
Um, Oh yeah, man.
So yeah, it's inthe right direction.
We've got a salespipeline set up.
So, uh, anyway, wellthat, that's, that's
one example, unboxing.
Cool.

Keaton (17:09):
Uh, so going back to the books that kind
of taught you all this,you mentioned the e myth.
A couple of weeks ago.

Brett (17:16):
What else did you read?
Yeah.
You know, one reallygood founding one
was work the system.
Sam Carpenter isfamiliar with that.
Yeah, that, that one Ithink was a really good
foundational book that I kindof took and morphed into, um,
some of my own philosophy.
Um, yeah, e myth isdefinitely, uh, one of them.
Four hour work weeks,always in any online, you

(17:37):
know, good on, good onlineentrepreneur's pocket.

Keaton (17:39):
Okay.
Mm hmm.

Brett (17:40):
Um.
Yeah.
And a bevy of others that, youknow, I'll have to think about.
Um, so yeah, so, so that'scool and, um, I, I know what
I'm excited to talk aboutwhen we get there is kind
of some of my frameworks andmodels that I've been able
to transform those into.

Keaton (17:58):
Um, I want to get there right after this, but traction,
have you read that one?
Did you like it?
Well, how did I forget

Brett (18:03):
traction?
Not only traction,but, um, rocket fuel.
Okay.
Traction I do like.
But for me, it is a little.
Um, there's things that I changeabout it, um, particularly on
the project management sidebecause most entrepreneurs,
they want to go and EOS, right?
The, the, the model in theresays, well, we're going to slow
you down and that's good, butI think there's a happy medium.

(18:24):
I think you can goa little faster than
that, but absolutely do.
Yeah.
So you've read traction.
I haven't.

Keaton (18:29):
Oh yeah.
I mean, I kind of gave upbusiness books a couple of
years ago, to be honest.
Oh, what?
Um, I know it soundscounterintuitive, but like,
I just, have you ever heardPeter Drucker say, I don't read
business, I read philosophy,I read fiction, I don't
read business, and he like,there's a story about him
like, ushering someone out ofhis office that wanted him to

(18:51):
read a business book, um, whowas like one of the greatest
management thinkers of all time.
Oh, I know Drucker.
Yeah, yeah.
I've read his stuff.
Whoa.
I didn't realize hesaid that though.
Um, and I heard that and Iwas like, huh, I think at a
certain point they all start torepeat each other in some ways.
Um, but for me, I was justso head down for like so many

(19:18):
years and I never actuallytook a break from thinking
about business and that it'slike, it doesn't turn off in
the evening and I'm talking tomy, my girlfriend, not wife.
It's just like, Hey,let's talk about something
else that's not work.
And, uh, the books werekind of, you know, Rough
in that aspect for me.
Um, but I, I just honestly,like I asked myself, like, what

(19:40):
do I want to be listening to?
Um, cause I don't reallysit down and read.
And if I buy the book and Iget two chapters in and I don't
like it, I don't feel bad fornot continuing to listen to
it or whatever, but yeah, Idon't, I don't do much business
anymore, but if, if there'sa specific problem I was
trying to solve or a specificrecommendation where someone

(20:01):
was like, you have to do this.
And then I listened to the firstcouple of chapters and I like
it, I'd continue with it, but.
I just, I did so manyfor probably too fast
that I, I just got burned

Brett (20:12):
out of them.
I can, I can relate to that.
In fact, it's, yeah, causeI really don't read any
business books either nowthat I think about it.
I'm more, um, dude, it's funny.
Like you nailed it.
Yeah.
Cause I don't, uh, um, I heardher Mosey say something and
obviously he's the king of allthat, but that's all he reads.
It wasn't because ofthat, that I did it.
So yeah, I'm kind of puttingmy own pieces together here

(20:33):
too, but I think you're right.
Like early on.
You need a framework, you haveto have one, and without that,
those materials and stuff to addon to it and build it, right?
Yeah.
But the same thing, likeonce you have your framework,
you're right, it's likeincremental 2%, so a whole
book is not going to actually

Keaton (20:50):
Yeah, and just going, most of the time for me it's
going back to the classics thatreally did something for me,
and referencing a chapter andjust reading that and be like,
okay, I can pattern match.
Mm.
Oh, let's, let's referencethis other book, okay, this
list was helpful, I need togo back and look at that.
But like, wait, whichclassics, which ones, uh,
I've like in talking like thedigital marketing classics.

(21:13):
So for me it would be, and I,or Rosie has a short on this
where he's like, I, I, theseare my 10 books that I go back
and like reread them every year.
Um, expert secrets, whichI, I should reread recently.
Just all of RussellBrunson's books.
Um, he missed, I read, I've onlyread once, but I feel like the,

(21:36):
what I got out of that was just.
So asymmetrical and likeeight hours or five hours
of listening to that.
And it was just like,it's a framework for
understanding everything.
Um, so that's, I would saythat's a small business
classic and then, um,let's say influence.
And there's one more I'mforgetting right now.

(21:58):
I'll bring it up later if I, I

Brett (21:59):
remember it.
Yeah.
Well, welcome to my world.
I couldn't remember it either.
Do you need us?
I never got to ask you.
That was curious.
What, what is your superpower?
I know this is your podcast.
What is your, cause you, you gotthis way about you meeting you.
Right.
Where it's just kind of likechill, low mode, you know,
but, but like, you know,you can just tell there's
some little spark in there.

(22:20):
Like, what is your 10 to 10?

Keaton (22:23):
I don't know.
That's interesting.
I've, I've been thinking aboutthat a lot recently actually.
Cause I, I,if I could go back and tell
myself one thing in thefirst like two to three years
of being an entrepreneur,it would be like hire
more consultants faster.
Um, And I always tell peoplethat I'm like, this is your

(22:45):
shortcut to buying more life.
Like, you just talk to somebodythat's done it, you ask them
what to do, and then you do it.
And I didn't do enoughof that at the beginning,
and my journey was a lotslower because of that.
Um, which I think is fine,but, um, recently I've, I've
just been on a very muchlike, very intentionally

(23:06):
seeking out coaches, seekingout people that can help me.
And it's interesting because Ifeel like, um, the, the coaching
doesn't actually help in thatfollowing what they're saying.
Like maybe there's 20, 30percent of it is like amazing.
And then there's like 70percent that I'm just like,

(23:26):
I don't think that appliesto what I actually want.
Um, so I don't know ifit's my, and I'm, I'm now
moving out of those coachingrelationships and just like
this, like what I have builtis actually very unique and.
And I was trying to, I hadthe wrong coach for like a

(23:48):
different model, essentiallyis what I'm saying.
Um, I don't know what mysuperpower is, but I would
say it's, it's being able tolike just test and iterate
and like eventually get downto what it is that I want.
But it's, it's very selfishin that way where I'm

(24:10):
like business for me isjust a lifestyle outcome.
Um, that I've, I've said a lotof stuff about like serving
people and helping and all that.
And it's true, like I love that.
I enjoy that.
I see, I enjoy seeingpeople's results.
But at the end of the day,recently, especially like with
the family, it's just been like,how can I, how can I go get
some like mental stimulation andhave a lot of fun, become the

(24:34):
lord of leverage where I'm justlike, I put in an hour and I've
created 100, 000 worth of value.
Like that's, You know,the aspirational hourly
rate, let's say, um, and,and then switch that back.
Off and just beinglike full time dad,
husband mode, you know?

(24:55):
So definitely not, that's themuscle I'm trying to build.
And

Brett (24:58):
I wouldn't say it's very good conversations.
Yeah.
So, cause it's funny, man,I talked a lot on shares and
being in this position, I wastelling you, I had twins and
for a time I was like movingon the circuit, starting
to go talk and I loved it.
And that's kind of whereI'm obviously here.
And again, you know, but, um,so, Hey, I know the family,
like, Twin, dude, it justtook, I was like, I'll be fine.

(25:20):
It's good.
No, it shut me down.
So another sabbatical,um, but just talking with
entrepreneurs, one, one's likeyourself and the differences.
Um, and you haven'tread traction.
You probably hadred rocket fuel.
Okay, dude, that onereally changed my own
perspective of myself.
Um, and if you, if you'refamiliar, it's like there's a
visionary type launch pair andthen the integrator, right?

(25:40):
Yeah.
That's an email too, though.
Uh, E Myth is, is, uh,a little bit different,
but yeah, I guess it is.
They, they lay outthe types, don't they?
Yeah.
It's actually been a while.
Let's, uh, re readE Myth together.
Yeah, we could justdo it on the podcast.
Yeah, yeah.
Let's just, yeah.
Put it in a book.
Let's, like, do a close reading.
Yeah, but, um, Mr.
Rogers style.
Oh, right.

(26:00):
Yeah, or read the names.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I, um, no, dude, but it, it'sfunny, so like, for me being
on the stage, I do love it,but I hate coming up with
my own stuff and having.
Like, um, what drives me isbeing that secondary force,
like, uh, you know, mytagline, my fake tag, like
the number one, number twoor whatever, but just, just
helping people find that.

(26:21):
I think that goes backto the counseling in me.
Um, and yeah, man, like, um,it's just cool watching your
thought process, trying tofigure out what it is you do so
that you can lever it because

Keaton (26:32):
you don't have clarity.
Yeah, well, it's interestingbecause I've, going back to
the business book thing, like,part of the reason I don't
read it is, I'm like, it's justpretty much just a function
of hiring the right peopleand getting the right clients.
Like, your business willsuck if you have the wrong
people, and it will suck ifyou have the wrong clients.

(26:54):
And There's only so much youcan do outside of that from an
operations perspective to fixthose two major, major issues.
And so for me, it's all abouthow can I hire somebody with
the most experience to take careof this thing that I'm doing
too much of, or that somebodyelse is doing too much of.

(27:14):
And then justconstantly testing that.
And, um, you know, I've done alot of things where I've hired
stuff out and then I'm like,no, I actually, I should be
doing this because the natureof a creator business model
is you're kind of like, it'snot a, it's like an inverted
pyramid where like you're atthe bottom, there's a lot of
work that you have to do thatisn't outsourceable, um, unless

(27:36):
you're building a media companyor something like that, which
I've considered, but thenI'm, you know, I don't, I, A
lot of this is coming from,like, I grew up too fast.
I had six employeeswhen I was 22.
The stress of that payrollwasn't that stressful, but the
having to be, like, act like Iknew what was going on at that

(27:59):
age, uh, stressed me out a lot.
And so, at this point, I'mjust like, how can I have
overseas contractors thatknow what they're doing?
I have to talk to them.
Uh, you know, we message daily,but I have calls with them never
or, you know, once every coupleof weeks or things like that.
And, and, um, it's, again, it'sjust a lifestyle outcome at

(28:23):
this point because I've beenon the other side of like, I'm
going to build a team and haveall this, you know, and you
think that sounds sexy from theoutside, but for me personally,
at least at this point in mylife, it just doesn't work.
It's not what I want.
So, let's talk about youroperational framework though.
What's the Brett LennonCole methodology?

(28:44):
How have you combined allthese books to create the
best lifestyle outcomesand monetary outcomes for
burnt out entrepreneurs?

Brett (28:51):
Yeah.

Keaton (28:52):
Um,

Brett (28:53):
yeah, so like mine really is, uh, my thing is
going as hard and as far as Ican on only what can be proved.
Only the stuff that isobjective, that's logical,
that is, uh, real, right?
And.
Um, for you more as asolopreneur, um, that's

(29:13):
helpful to an extent, but it'sreally helpful once you get
past five, 16 members knowingwho's doing what, right?
Because at that point,um, you know, I think it
comes down personally to,to two main things to have
smooth operations, right?
It's um, you know,it's processes.
What is the ironclad exactprocess that we need to

(29:33):
take to make You know,so, um, there's that.
And then it's how do youhold people accountable?
Ideally the ones that havethe skillsets to do each of
the things, uh, accountable toexecuting those to perfection.
Right.
And so, um, you know, my, mymodel, it's, it's interesting.
I've worked with like 45businesses, probably 90
percent agencies, you know,and then some other mixed

(29:56):
ones, um, and every time Igo in and solve problems, Um,
you know, I have a processengineering team and we'll
take that and we'll map it out.
So I'm a huge fanof just visuals.
Um, I mean, to geek out,like, uh, for me, like,
like math, like twoplus two is four, right?
So you cannot, like it, it is.
Um, and so my whole thing islike, if we can just get to

(30:17):
that, no one can argue, right?
The, and so thereforeit's all just execution.
There's no, well, whatabout this way or that way?
And there's also no waitingfor that entrepreneur to make
decisions and say, should wedo this or should we do that?
Once it's set, follow the flow.
And then add new ones.
Um, so it's kind of, yeah,it's, it's kind of adapted.
I call it my factory model.
Okay.

Keaton (30:37):
But how detailed would that initial process map be?
Like, is that, you know, let'ssay we're onboarding a client.
Are you talking about likethat type of SOP or is it
more internal stuff or?

Brett (30:49):
Yeah, both in all of it.
So like, yeah, we're opening upa real rabbit hole here and I
can totally geek out, so stopme if it gets a little too.
That's what we're here for.
Yeah, dude.
No.
So like, it's been aninteresting journey
just doing that.
So again, going in,solving problems.
And then finding the painsand what I found was like, the
problems people were havingand the way they try to solve
it, um, you know, I, I kind ofcame to a realization that, um,

(31:12):
I, I think it's pretty known,like you have a problem, what's
really at the root, there was noway to actually see it, right?
There was no way to actuallylike, everybody look at a
war map like you would inan army and say, here's
where this is, here wherethis is, you know, let's get
definitive and objective.
Yeah.
Um, and so, um, so yeah,so it was like, I, I kind

(31:34):
of akin it to dimensions.
So yeah, that's so peas.
Yeah.
But that's only one dimension.
That's one level.
So, where does each, how doyou map where one SOP then gets
finished and leads to the nextSOP, and then leads to the next,
and how do you know efficientlyyou're doing all of those?
Oh, I see.

Keaton (31:51):
Mm hmm.

Brett (31:51):
Right?
And so it's like stacking layersof different types of maps.
So this initial

Keaton (31:55):
process you're talking about is every, it's the

Brett (31:57):
entire warmup.

Keaton (31:58):
But

Brett (31:59):
yeah, you, um, that's the ideal, right?
That's the ideal, right?
So yes, um, but yeah, itdepends on like, it really
starts where the problem is.
So if, uh, you'relosing clients, right?
Well, yeah, maybe we do wantto start at onboarding and make
sure that experience is perfect.
So get everybody in a rope.
Let's get all theinformation on the table.
Let's get, you know, laid outand let's, let's standardize

(32:21):
it so that we can say thisinput turns into this output,
this input to this SOP,it turns to that output.
Okay.
Thanks.
And then let's see where itfits in the bigger picture.
I see.

Keaton (32:31):
Yeah.
Okay.
So it starts with the problem.
Uh, but I assume a lot of timesit's like, here, this is the
problem, we're losing clients.
And as you said, the real rootof that problem, like, has
there been a time when you'vefound out that it's not at
all where you thought it was?

Brett (32:46):
Every single time, dude.
Every single time.
And cause if, if, yeah, firstoff, if they knew where it
was, they wouldn't mean, right?
But, um, Yeah.
I would say most problemsare more than anything into
miscommunication or, um, justintangible things that like
people assume this person'sgoing to do this at this time.

(33:08):
Right.
Or, um, yeah, so,um, yeah, yeah.
Every single

Keaton (33:13):
time.
Yeah.
And do you have anexample of that?
Like someone came to you withX problem and the solution was
something you never dreamed of.

Brett (33:21):
Ooh.
Yeah.
Great question.
Let me think.
Um, um, there is an it company.
You know, and they weretrying to say, you know,
their team member wasnot doing well, right?
And so they wanted me tocome in and get a fresh look
and analyze, like, is hereally who he says he is?
Is he an A player?
Is it B player?
And I started talking tohim, you know, and then I

(33:43):
said, well, like, yeah, he,he started laying out his
process, what he did day to day.
So we started mapping that andlooked, yeah, well, anyway,
tracing it all the way back,a hundred percent, the issue
was actually the owner, right?
Because he was not laying.
He was not being clear exactlyon what the outcome was to
be, and therefore the guydidn't have enough information

(34:03):
to actually execute, youknow, execute correctly.
Um, yeah, so I guess that comesto mind and probably as we
proceed I'll come up with it tothink of another as it makes.

Keaton (34:13):
How do you break that to the owner when you're like, hey.
Oh, dude.
You look fat in that dress.

Brett (34:19):
Uh, is podcast?
Yeah, you're fucking up.
The fuck are you doing?
Do you realize like youjust hung this guy out to
dry and it's your fault?
So no wonder you'refeeling it, right?
No wonder clients leavingyou because, yeah, so, so
definitely things like that.
And um, yeah, part of my job isthat it's a weird artistic and
scientific mix of like me tryingto get what is the actual thing.

(34:43):
Um, but yeah, a part ofmy, I guess, so we talked
superpowers earlier.
Part of my own is like, I'm justreally good at reading people.
I'm really like, Ican just feel it.
It's weird to say, butI can just feel it.
So fine.
Like, uh, in our sessions,like I get into it and
I can collect info and Ican just be like, yeah.
So, so it is, it's kindof, um, putting those two

(35:05):
pieces together and got it.

Keaton (35:07):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So what would you say mostagencies are struggling with
when they come to you and wheredoes the solution tend to be?

Brett (35:17):
Yeah.
Well, no, still it'shard because every agency
really is different.
They're, they're like businessesin general are complex agencies.
Right.
And the demands, especiallythese days of clients,
uh, and I guess even thecompetition in their industry,
like it is, it's, uh, itis complex, but I would say
most of the time it's churn.

(35:38):
I mean, we know that clientsleave in all the time,
so, um, that's typicallythe starting point.
And then probably tied withthat just is, is burnout.
It's overwhelming.
These guys just crank,you know, agency owners.
Yeah.
Yeah.

Keaton (35:52):
So where do you.
I'm, I'm a burnt outagency owner that has
more churn than I want.
What's the first thing youask me and where do you go to
find out where the problem is?

Brett (36:04):
Yeah, well first thing I do is bring your entire team
on first because what you thinkit is and what you're telling
me about your team is, there'sa different story, right?
Yeah.
There's tons of them.
So it's collecting all thepicture and bringing it all
together in one central spot.
Um, but I don't know.
Yeah, let's, let's workshop.
Let's pretend.
I mean, you ownand sold an agency.
Let's.

Keaton (36:23):
Yeah.
Let's do a sample one.
So let's say.
I'm in, um, the home servicesniche and I'm doing like, you
know, between 10 and 20k amonth and starting to bring on
like the first people and I'mfrustrated because I can't, it
seems like I just keep gettingpulled into fulfillment every

(36:46):
day and the quality of thefulfillment and the results
seems to be going down.
Um,

Brett (36:55):
Yeah.
Oh, dude.
It's so funny because literally9am this morning, Greg, if
you're watching, uh, he's ahome service agency and we just
did a session exactly on this.
Greg is a killerat sales, right?
And that's one nugget of,you know, difference that you
have to keep in mind becausehis hour versus someone else
who's good at something else,if he just spends on the
phone, right, that's lookingto add up to actual revenue

(37:16):
and he can just buy his wayout of the problem later.
Right.
Right.
Right.
So, um, and you know, I'mtaking that blueprint and
then we'll kind of play it.
With yours.
But, um, yeah, he was like,yeah, I'm going to do that.
This particular one thismorning, he was exactly
pretty much this person.
And the result was this, hewas stuck on his, his own self.
He was like piddling.
He was like, yeah.

(37:37):
Um, you know, I keepgetting sucked back in.
I keep having clients thatI have to talk to, you know,
answering questions andonly I know the answers to.
Right.
So digging it down, of coursehe knew he needed a CSM.
So we already hadthat search going.
And, um, yeah, it was like,basically he was, he was,
he was like, yeah, she'sa little out of my budget.
You know, I foundit pretty decently.

(37:58):
She's a little out.
I'm like, bro, dude, likeyou pay a little bit more
and you can sell yourway out of this problem.
What are you doing?
I mean, you got a superpoweryou should be using now.
So yeah, that's one example.
And walking away, he'sgoing to go higher today.
Uh, and then for him to, to gethim out of that, that thing, um,
in the past, he's hired people.
He's had a big churn problem.

(38:18):
So now I'm saying Greg, butstill in the hypothetical,
right, I guess, but, but he, um.
Uh, yeah, like turnover happensand then he has to start
from zero, which is stupid.
Anything you do, you shouldnever have to do again.
Like anything you do, theproblem is most people don't
have that second meta layer.
So someone remindingthem to be like, record
this or document this.

(38:39):
So, um, yeah, the systemset up for that is like,
okay, train her every day.
You're going to do a session,you're going to tell her
to batch everything so youdon't get overwhelmed and
piddled and, and cut witha thousand cuts, right?
First week, probably not.
But after that.
Um, we're going to incentivizeher so that, uh, whatever you
would have paid her, you'regoing to cut back 10, 20 percent

(39:00):
and then pay the rest of thatafter three months if she stays,
because you're putting a lotof time in and then every one
of those meetings, not onlyare you going to bring your
team on so they hear it and getlessons from it, um, but you're
going to record everythingand put it in the library.
So if you do have to rehire,you never have to do it
again, going over yourclient list, going over, you
know, the idiosyncrasies.
Um, and that alone rightthere should nominally get
him out, but if it doesn't,he's fortified to never,

(39:23):
you know, to, to be out atleast for a couple of, so.
I see.
And how big is histeam at this point?
Yeah.
So, um, he was one of therare ones that actually had
an org chart already listedout, which was helpful for me.
So yeah, right now hehad, I think it was
like nine, nine people.
I think he's like 60, but,but he is just a seller
problem for him again, hisback end fulfillment and

(39:43):
him having to be apart.
So, um, So, yeah, Imean, but it's thing.
Yeah.

Keaton (39:49):
What do you do?
Like, let's say someonecomes to you and they're
like, we're just not gettingenough leads for this client.
Are you able tosolve that problem?

Brett (39:58):
Well, if it's a systematic operational problem,
which I think most are.
Yeah.
I mean, uh, but it dependswhat's the lead source, right?
If it's Google ads, well.
Pretty competitive right now.
Uh, are they spendingenough budget?
Yeah.
So obviously there's someprobably higher end problem
solving that you can dodepending on what it is,
but I know for a factI can find the problem.
I probably, I don'tknow if I can solve it.

(40:19):
But if I can't, I know I canfind the person who can't.

Keaton (40:22):
Yeah.

Brett (40:22):
I mean, that's 90 percent of it is
identifying the problem.
It is.
It's funny because that,that is a realization pretty
recently too, is just withclarity, things are easy.
Maybe I read that somewhere,but, but it is, it's finding
it and getting clear on it.
So you can, you know.

Keaton (40:39):
So what's the model organizationally wise to
take someone from maybe asolopreneur or a partnership
with one contractor?
Like what revenue levelsdo people typically have to
start hiring more people?
And then what do yousuggest that org chart
look like to stay lean?

(40:59):
People aren't stuck, you know,stuck in slack me hell all day.
Um, but they're also notpaying, you know, 80 percent
of what they're collecting toteam and software, et cetera.

Brett (41:11):
Yeah.
I mean, I, I probably differ alittle bit on this because I,
I do understand the lean modellike we'll keep everything tight
and lean, but I also feel likeyou got to believe in yourself.
Right.
And if you're going to do it,do it the absolute best and
then just, just keep scaling.
Right.
And so, um, you get theeconomies of scale once you
get past that 70, 80 mark.

(41:32):
Right.
So if you're asking me, if youcan get the risk, if you trust
yourself, if you do your stuffwell, like you have, you know,
you get results for clients,um, I, I personally feel like
you should, uh, like, again,I'm, I'm a geek out here.
Like everything you do, ifyou're a solo entrepreneur
or if you run a, a, youknow, a 2 million a year

(41:54):
agency or whatever, right?
It's, it's whateveryou're doing is a task.
You're doing things right now.
Uh, what is that thing?
What other, what skillwould that require?
Right?
Is it something rote?
I call them non skilltasks that you can just
document and hand off.
Is it?
You know, a semi skilled whereyou can find someone they're
kind of around, you know, or isit skilled and you absolutely

(42:15):
have to do it, you have to dothe surgery on the patient.
Um, a lot of peoplearen't aware of that, but.
Yeah, it's like, um, Ithink outsource everything.
I think delegate absolutelyeverything so you can keep
thinking forward or dothe high leverage stuff.
You know, um, uh, that'show I think, you know.

Keaton (42:33):
Yeah, but what is, what does the org chart look

Brett (42:36):
like?
Oh yeah, no doubt.
Um, my org chart, so I founda lot of operators do it
a little bit differently.
EOS does it alittle differently.
Um, but my operational orgchart is exactly like this.
So it's, it's CEO, uh, ifyou're fortunate to have
someone like me, a COO or,uh, or integrator to kind of
be your filter, um, and thenit goes from left to right.

(42:57):
Uh, marketing andsales or marketing in a
separate box of sales.
Uh, so yeah, marketingsales, then fulfillment
and it's admin, right.
And that includes financialsand just all the administrative
behind the scenes tasks.
Um, yeah.
And that, the reason I layit out that way, it's like
marketing brings people in,sales closes those people,
fulfillment gives them whatyou told you, you give them

(43:18):
admin, everything else.
Yeah.

Keaton (43:20):
So then what roles do you have under each one
of those four functions

Brett (43:26):
of the business?
Yeah.
So, I mean, past that again,it becomes a factor of what,
what do you got, show mewhat you got and then let's
put it where it makes sense.
So for the company I'm,I'm, you know, COOing for
right now, um, she wasdoing a lot, uh, you know,
it's a function of whateveryou promise the customer,
frankly, um, it's, it's that.
And then on the admin side, it'sa function of like, what kind

(43:48):
of, what bullshit are you doing?
Like what kind of thingsthat suck or someone has
to do to keep the businessrunning and They're happening.
So just document them and makesure they're on somebody's,
uh, you know, uh, yeah,and make a role, right,
or fit them into a role.
But the key thing is, uh,getting the people with the
right skill sets that can do it.

Keaton (44:08):
Got it.
So what I'm hearing is, it's notreally about the role itself.
It's about, you know, Definingwhat tasks need to get done
and then creating a role

Brett (44:18):
for them.
I think you found yoursuperpower, Keith.
Rising, yep, um, thatwould be correct.
Yep.

Keaton (44:25):
Okay.
Um, follow up to this, haveyou ever found that clients
lie to you in order to saveface and, you know, like they
say, normal, like managementconsulting, huge retainers,
it's like, they just hireconsultants so they have someone
to blame when things go wrong.

(44:45):
Yep.
Yep.
Have you seen that kind of,um, scenario or where someone's
like, just obfuscating thetruth so that you, they,
they don't have to facewhat's actually going on, but
they're acting like they are?

Brett (45:00):
Ooh.
Well, it sounds like youprobably get a few of these.
I was like, um, no dude, usuallywhen people bring me in, like,
if you're lying to me or lyingto yourself, you're fucking,
you're throwing money away.
So if someone wants topay me to feel good about
themselves, like fine, but, um.
I can't think of any particularinstance, um, but, but yeah,
there, sometimes there'sthose logical hangups.

(45:22):
I want this and then I'm doingthis action and it's like,
well, you're lying to yourself.
That's probably it.
But, um, yeah, I probably oweit to my counseling background.
That is what Ithought I would do.
I thought I would be like,I'm really good with kids and
people, like I said, you know,and like, I kind of wanted to
make that difference in theworld, um, until I didn't when

(45:42):
I saw it was actually happening.
But.
Yeah, pretty, pretty good.
I'd say it's sussing it on hishead and being like, why do
you think that to the N logicaldegree, like just separating
it until it's like, Got it.
You're lawyered.
But they, have they everfired you because you've,
you've pushed them too hard?
Um, no, you know, because oneof my, I would say another

(46:03):
thing that I like to makesure I do is like, I'm here to
make your life easier, right?
If you're a CEO, I don't wantto say, okay, now you need
to do X, Y, Z, go, go, go.
Right?
I am a, who on your teamdo you have that can do it?
If they can't do it,where's the skill I need
to find so that they can't.
Yeah.
Right?
So, um, it, yeah, so I,I, you know, it's funny.
It's also, so I hadanother client I just

(46:24):
wrapped an engagement with.
Um, very successfulmarketing agency.
It's been like nine years,um, limos, actually.
Nice.
Yeah.
Every niche out there.
Right.
Yeah.
Um, that's kind of one of thethings he said at the end.
He's like, I didn'trealize how much I was
not utilizing my team.
He would keep informationfrom them thinking, well,
they don't need to know this.

(46:44):
And I was like, dude, justtell everyone they're here.
And that gives them morecontext to make decisions
that you don't have to make.
So over time, he justkind of felt that.
Like, oh, yeah, Iguess you're right.
What was I hiding?
Yeah.
Um, which was coolfeedback here.
Nice.

Keaton (47:00):
What about partnerships?
Have you ever seen a Sounds likewe'd get to do some counseling.
Yeah.
Have you ever mediated, uh, uh,a partnership like dissolving
or resolving differences?
And can you tell

Brett (47:15):
us about that?
Dude, great question.
And this is one I haven'tthought of in a while.
No, I got a client that wasA little bit different model.
Uh, yeah, this is a while ago.
So he was doing, he wascrushing it from this
upper profile he had built.
So he just getting inleads and then he was
outsourcing the work.
Um, so they had a team like10, what'd they even do?

(47:35):
Cause his, his name, it wasn'tnecessarily, it was something
with coding or something.
Um, and it was himand his partner.
So his partner was fromYale, he was like a Yale
background, very smart guys.
Okay.
Yeah, and um, it was thetypical partner thing,
basically like, what areyou, I'm doing all this, what
are you, well I'm doing allthis, what are you doing?
You should be, so yeah dude,it was, it was interesting,

(47:55):
they hired me, and um,I don't think I said but
like 10 words, practically,I just got to, you know.
Prod and ask questionsto see what's your side.
Okay.
You heard him.
And, um, it's funny.
That's whatcounseling really is.
It's, uh, Did I tellyou, was this you?
I think, I feel like I toldthis to someone, but like,
dude, I can't remember.

(48:16):
Anyway, Counseling at the end ofthe day in a counseling sense.
Mm hmm.
It's, uh, if you do it with twopeople, it's getting two people
to talk about, no, no, no, no,no, that's not what he means.
That's when he does that.
That's not what he means.
That's not what he's saying.
He's saying this.
Oh, cool.
Okay.
Oh, you know, so it'slike, it is cutting.
Yeah.
And then when you do counselingwith you, it's really doing

(48:37):
that same thing to yourself.
When I feel this, Oh, Ididn't realize that this thing
that I've done forever, thisway and felt this way and
thought was this way, right,is, is causing this or this.
Yeah.
So

Keaton (48:49):
interesting.

Brett (48:50):
Yeah.
So in a business partnership,there's no different.
We're humans.
We have emotions.
We're driven by emotions.
We can't control them,which is very hard to do.
And um, these two, it was cool.
Yeah.
Yeah.
By the end.
They're best friends.
Yeah.
I heard you should followup with these guys.
Um, but, um, yeah, asfar as I understood, they
said you saved it becausenow we understand we have

(49:11):
clarity of what we're doing.
Um, yeah.
They're really cool guys.
I like this.
Yeah.
I told you, I need youto pull it out of me
because I just, I forget.

Keaton (49:20):
Yeah.
Um, when you said, I wasworried about the future of
this podcast when you saidyou couldn't remember things.
You don't likeremembering things.
I hate it.
You know, for

Brett (49:30):
me, it's like, dude, I'm a loop closer, right?
Yeah.
So am I doing your business?
That's true.
Yeah.
It's like open loopscause this anxiety wave
in every entrepreneur, andyou can't stop thinking
about it till it's closed.
Some never get to close it.
I worked with one actually veryfamous, uh, guru, not, not very
famous, but like, I don't know.
He's, he's famous.
You're famous.
Yeah.
He probably wouldn't know.
But he's, um, Really good dude.

(49:51):
Really, really goodat what he does.
Um, but he just openslike 10 loops a day
and maybe closes too.
Got it.
Yeah.
So over time it's like,you're waking up on
Mondays being like, dang.
So, um, for me it, it, itis, it's like, I just have
to close loops so I can goto bed and go to sleep and
yeah, that's one of them.

Keaton (50:08):
Got it.
When you work with theclient, they come on board.
How does the, the fee structurework and how do you make
sure they're a good fit?
Because I, what you weresaying earlier about none of
those clients really lying toyou, they're all fairly like.
You don't actually wantto solve the problem.
I think it's honestly, it's afunction of you being really
good at client selection orperhaps a lot of your business,

(50:30):
I think comes from referrals.
So it's like the good peopleknow the good people and
you don't have to dealwith these clients that are
ironically like rooting againstthemselves and like doing a
lot of self sabotage, which.
It happens a lot whenyou're not, uh, vetting
your clients well enough.
So I think that'swhat's happening.

(50:50):
But um, the, what wasthe question I asked?

Brett (50:55):
Well, cause I, I see what you're getting at.
You're, you know, as, as,um, how do you select clients
that aren't going to be apain in your ass that you,
you cannot get results for.
And, um, yeah, You know, sure.
Do you deal with it?
You get, uh, well, especiallywith your YouTube channel and
stuff, you get a lot of warmpeople that already trust you
so you can get there faster.
We just cut right through it.
And what, what isthe real problem?

(51:16):
Well, that's not it.
Why is that?
No, no, no.
That's the real problem.
Um, and yeah, I've been reallyfortunate to have a lot of
really smart, really, youknow, um, successful people,
especially in the agency spacethat just, uh, are in the weeds
and they need perspective.
Yeah.
Got it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Makes it easierfor me, you know?

(51:36):
Um.
Yeah.
Yeah, and I know you weretalking about, you know,
um, how I work and thestructure and all that.

Keaton (51:42):
Oh yeah, yeah, when people, when you bring someone
on, how do you, what are thegreen flags you're looking
for in the discovery process?
And then also, how doyou price it, how do you
determine how long you'llneed to work together, etc.

Brett (51:59):
Yeah, no, I do mine pretty standard, again,
another loop closed, so Idon't work with anyone and,
um, it's a three month minimum.
I can't really, I can't makemagic within three months.
A lot of these things you changeit today and then you have to,
you know, the testing iteration.
Um, yeah, so likegreen flags, red flags.
I guess I've come across a fewlike real assholes that I'm,

(52:21):
oh yeah, dude, there was one.
So, yeah.
This, this oneactually was a cold.
He came in through one ofmy, you know, courses that
I had up that I, I, um,I'm kinda reformatting,
I'm gonna put that back up.
But, um, he was a VC capital.

Keaton (52:34):
Mm-Hmm.

Brett (52:34):
He had four businesses and he was
just a go, go, go, right?
Um, and it started, right.
He wanted, um, likehe, he loved it.
He was like, yeah, I need, Ineed all of this boxed up so I
can hire and scale and go Well,so we did it, got an NGR on it.
We mapped it all out.
And then scope creep, right?
Changed it.
No, no, no.
I wanted more detail.

(52:55):
I want SOP.
So, um, anyway, end of theday, he, he was an asshole.
That was a red flag.
Anytime you say one thing, wedocument it and it changes.
I'm like, I can't like, yeah.
So they always rough.
Um, but on the flip side ofthat, every client, there
is a scope creep becauseyou do start with being very
thirsty for a drink of waterin the desert in this side.

(53:16):
And then soon it's like,well, that's just water,
but what's the next, like,there's something else.
I need a camel toget out of here.

Keaton (53:22):
Yeah.

Brett (53:22):
Um, so, so it's an interesting, it's just a
constant problem solving, man.
It's on to the next.
And that's why Ithink I just close.
I just shut it off.
Okay.
Well, I'll come back.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I get bored.
And what's the pricing like?
Like if I were tohire you today?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, I charge 6, 000 a month.
Um, and then any labor thatwe have to bring in that you
don't have on your team, um,I'm very good at finding.

(53:45):
The right people to getit done, uh, quickly.
Got it.
So, so that's it.
Um, and that's what I'vetraditionally done by the way.
And maybe I mentioned this too,like my new business that as
I kind of had the opportunityto come back out and, Um,
solve more problems is, ismore on the placement side.
Um, I find there's three,three roles that can make

(54:06):
the biggest difference ingetting people back their time.
So back during my, um, uh,baseball days, uh, back when
I wrote a book called theshadow you VA, and it was
my whole system of how Igot myself out with a VA and
then brought my team, uh,to those hourly meetings.
That was kind of thegenesis of it all.
Um.
Yes.
So just how I documentedeverything, how nothing got

(54:28):
missed, um, and, and so thatwill people that are kind of
doing little stuff, it's not,it's not the five or 10 minutes
it takes you to do the thing.
It's the 20 minutes itinterrupts you, the five, 10
minutes to do it, you know?
So it's a bandwidth eater.
So that's just pretty quick.
Yeah.
And, um, so.
Shadow VA is someoneI put in, they do it.

(54:50):
Second is the DevOps.
There's so much tech stuffthese days and in agencies that
you just have to figure outthat can waste a whole day.
So, um, Yeah, these guys,they're just figure it outers,
uh, part time, uh, that, that,and then lastly operational
guys, operations managers.
Yeah, yeah, so, so threemain roles, whether it's

(55:11):
the guys I bring or not.
I think any agency can benefit,A, uh, from someone just
doing the non skilled stuff.
They're a SOP follower, whichshould be mostly anyone anyway.
Um, but yeah, DevOps, someonethat you can just throw tech
problems and say, figurethis out, connect these
softwares, set it up, right.
Uh, the ones thatwe have code, right.

(55:32):
They come from that backgroundand then yeah, operations
managers, which are trainedin my factory model, right.
So I train them how to usethe tools and how to map
things out so that like.
It's objective.
Um, so that's something I'mworking on now, probably the
next month, you know, I'llkind of have that all set up.
So.
As far as a course, you mean?
Well, it's a staffing agency.

(55:54):
So basically just staffingroles that get you free.
Yeah.
Very cool.

Keaton (55:59):
Tell me more about the Shadow VA position.
Um, I feel like this is one ofmy struggles where I Maybe I'm
more cynical in that, like, I'mjust, I'm never going to replace
myself as, I just expect thisperson to kind of function at
70 percent of what I could do.
Is that a reasonableexpectation, or what,
what specificallydoes the Shadow VA do?

(56:22):
For context right now, I'mthinking there's a number
of messages I get a day thatI just don't trust anybody
else to respond to, and Idon't know if I ever will.
Um, that would be nice.
Like I just, this is the,you know, boo hoo, you're an
influencer, get used to it.

(56:42):
But like, I just get somany per day and I have
someone managing a majorityof those and that's fine.
But I'm like, I need someonewhere, where it's like, they're
a bit more proactive in termsof like, I need someone,
I need you to reach out tothis person, schedule the

(57:03):
podcast, ask all the questions.
Thanks.
And I just, I haven'tfound that person yet.
So tell me about the, theshadow VA in general, and
then any advice maybe you

Brett (57:13):
have for me.
Dude.
Yeah, dude, again,it's problem solving.
Let's do it.
Like I'm stoked.
So, um, okay.
So you're telling me Keaton,that you have an end result
that you want done, which ispodcast automatically booked,
and then you're also tellingme you're doing it already.
All right.
And then, uh, so, um,yeah, given that you
could document every step.

(57:33):
Right?
Like, if we did this nowand, you know, I had some
tools that we, you know,we could do it later.
I'd be totallystoked to do that.
Um, A is definingwhat is that end.
So podcasts like this, they havesomething interesting, right?
So there's a qualificationprocess in it that would
have to be baked in.
Um, like the key here is this,if there is an existing process
and it gets done anyway,it is totally delegatable.
It's totally outsourceable.

Keaton (57:54):
Yeah.

Brett (57:55):
Um, and there are parts, yes, uh, that maybe
only you can do, sure.
But there's a lot ofother stuff that you
probably don't have to do.
Right?
Um, so, again, let, like, let'sgeek out and, and, um, dude, I,
like, let me just ramble hereand please, please make this
make sense if, uh, it doesn't.
Um, yeah, so, so step one,we would lay it out, right?

(58:16):
I would say, here's thesausage, tell me exactly
how the sausage is made.
What's step one?
You might start one, oh,no, actually it's, ah, nope.
Right?
Eventually we get there,we get it all laid out.
Um, and then secondly, each ofthose steps that we'd identify.
We need to classify, and I kindof alluded earlier, but I think
expanding on it would be helpfulhere for that, that shadow step.
So anything you do in thatseries is an individual task.

(58:39):
It takes some time to do, right?
So we need to look at thatwith a microscope, each task,
and we need to classify itin one of three categories.
Bottom, non skilled task,semi skilled task is two, and
then skilled task is three.
And the analogy I use forthose, um, Imagine walking
into a surgeon's office,the secretary, right?

(58:59):
She's following,here's the checklist.
Like anyone off thestreet can do that.
That's a non skilled task.
Uh, in the surgeon'sroom, you have the semi
skilled people who do allof the prep and the setup.
So they sanitize, you know, theysharpen, they put the tools down
and no one can just do that.
That takes some certification.
However.
There's probably a lot of them.
They're graduating out of schoolevery time, so you can find

(59:21):
those people fairly easily.
You can probably even haveyour secretary have an
SOP to help you find thosepeople to replace them.
So, um, if you, uh,if you're a, yeah.
And then what's the lastthing is the surgeon, the
person who is only the onethat has to make the cut.

Keaton (59:34):
Yeah.

Brett (59:35):
So it's really a process of laying all that, that out.
So everything is done.
Surgeon walks in, glovescome on, make the cut.
Surgeon walks out.
Right?
So while you may not beable to get out of it fully.
You shouldn't have to do80, 90 percent, but it's
probably just all kindof bunched in your head.
And my last point, right, onthat is qualification, um,

(01:00:00):
which, which is, um, there,there's probably an element to
you be like, well, they wouldn'tknow what they want, right?
They wouldn't know if thisis a good guest or not.
I can't outsource that.
You can, there's a tool forthat as part of, um, you
know, what we do and I'mgoing to rabbit hole that.
In a second to anotherproject and come back, I got
contacted or actually sent,uh, in my network, a lawyer

(01:00:23):
is a national law firm, rightonline there in Boston and
LA top immigration law firm.
And what they wanted to do, um,yeah, the problem they had was,
um, all these callers would callin and they'd have to qualify.
And like they're in houselawyers, uh, because it can,
it can get very complicated somuch so like an Iranian male,
are you 25 or older or younger?

(01:00:45):
Uh, because that makes adifference on section 25.
7a, like that kind of detail.
Um, so they had a, a, aqualification team and at
least two hours a day forpartners were getting taken
up from calls for them saying,can we help them or not?
So it didn't really work.
Right.
So we turned that, I'll haveto show it to you one day.
We made a beastdecision tree tool.
Right?

(01:01:06):
And all we did, like, and dude,they couldn't, they're like,
no, no one can figure it out.
I was like, no, I thinkI can figure it out.

Keaton (01:01:11):
Hmm.

Brett (01:01:11):
A beast of a, of a decision tree tool.
Um, and the whole pointis just taking the highest
leverage questions thatweed out the most people.
Right?
Uh, at each layer andjust turning it down
to yes or no questions.
Right?
And we got it down to wherethere was only like four
or five cases we actuallyneeded to send to a partner.
Um, and it saved them probablymillions a year just in

(01:01:32):
whatever their fees are.
So in your case, I bet youwe can decision tree out it.
The reason I know thatyou've done it enough times
where you just do it now.
So like, yeah, they're cool.
Um, yeah, they havesome influence.
They, they have some cool story.
Um, Those are things youjust automatically do
because you've done them.

Keaton (01:01:50):
Yeah.

Brett (01:01:50):
But if someone slows you down and said, well, why?
Well, because Okay.
Let's lay those out.
And then why these ones?
Um, you can have somebodyfollow that decision tree.
And then find the clues.
Like, well, they're Facebook.
It says this.
They've been onthese, these, these.
Anyway.
Got it.
And

Keaton (01:02:07):
talk to me about hiring those three different
roles, like what's, I'm,I'm searching right now for
somebody that's very skilledto, I'm sort of considering
the media company routewhere someone's just making
videos on my channel abouthigh level or other things.

(01:02:29):
Um, and I would say they,they're like, to use your
surgeon analogy, like,they're, they're in residency,
like, they're ready to startactually practicing and
doing the stuff and, andfinding that person is very,
very different than findingthe SOP secretary person.

(01:02:50):
What would you, what advice doyou have for the differences
between hiring there

Brett (01:02:55):
versus the skilled?
Dude, I love this question.
Yeah, because a lot of peoplethink when you get the surgeon
level only they can do the work.
You're right.
It's not true.
You just hire another surgeon.
Yeah, it costs more.
So how do you find that person?
Um, Like, the way I doit, if I were to come in
and say, like, you have tostart with the customer.
You have to start withthe end moneymaker.
What do they want first, right?

(01:03:16):
And once you know what theywant, now we have criteria
to say, well, you know, so,so heart patients, right?
Okay.
We need a heart surgeon.
We need someone who's beenand has those credentials.

Keaton (01:03:26):
Yeah.

Brett (01:03:26):
Um.
I would say in your case,it's more like, you know,
like media is like, howmany people can they bring?
There's kind of anextra thing to it.
So does the surgeon bring 20clients and it pays for itself?
That's a part of the strategyI would want to know.
Um, and another question Iwould have for your instance is
like, are we segmenting Keaton?

(01:03:46):
Like go high level section,this, that, and if that's
so it's very easy, right?
Because we just have anhour long conversation
of each segment andthen we really dial in.
What does that mean?
What do they want from that?
What is the end goalof the people actually
watching those channels?
Do it however many times.
Now we have our jobdescription and now you
can start interviewingand saying, can you do it?
Now you're looking nextfor personality, right?

(01:04:09):
And that's kind of where thefiner second, third round.
Um, and then you get to testingand always, by the way, anyone
at home, when you hire someone,do a two week trial, do a two
week trial, um, see if you getthe results you think for you.
I don't know.
Maybe there's, there'sprobably a way to unroll that.
But.

Keaton (01:04:25):
No, yeah, the two week trial thing is huge.
It's great.
Um, and then, like, asfar as rolling those job
descriptions out, are thereplatforms that you like or
hacks that you use, uh, bothfor skilled and unskilled?
Because it sounds, it soundslike that's part of the
secret sauce, is being ableto get these people fast to

(01:04:46):
the founders who need them.

Brett (01:04:48):
Yeah, I mean, um, okay, like, me personally,
if I'm doing a custom search,Like usually for me, by this
point, if I just talk toyou, I can get what I need.
Uh, and then right off thatmeeting, something happens
with me where I just go blank,I don't even know where I go
or what I just start postingwhere I think I can find it.
LinkedIn moreprofessionals, right?
Indeed's more in the U S.

(01:05:11):
Um, you know, professional andthere's a higher weeding process
a lot of times than that.

Keaton (01:05:15):
Mm hmm.

Brett (01:05:15):
I mean, I'm just off the top and again, it'll
be like up work, you know,sometimes it depends overseas.
Um, but for the roles I placed,the ones that we're working
with, it was a, um, uh, bestworker I've ever had, dude.
Best worker.
This guy is like, he's thekind of guy you're like,
Hey, can you set this up?
Uh, he's in the Philippinesand, and the next day he would
have built like the whole thing.
You've ever had people likethat where you're just like,

(01:05:37):
okay, let's, let's keep going.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
No, dude.
So we partnered, that's whatwe're partnering with this.
So he's, uh, in an MBA programover there, has a lot of talent.
Um, his specialty isdev ops and operations.
So he's just like findingthese crazy people like nice.
Yeah.
Like him.
Um, so, so a lot of that, ifit's those roles, I kind of

(01:05:58):
want to know on type thing.
It does.
They attract like,

Keaton (01:06:01):
yeah, yeah.
But, um, That's really cool.
Yeah.
I had a similar idea.
I didn't end up chasingit down, but my designer
is this type of person.
I just randomly found himon a freelancer contest,
if you know what that is.
So the freelancer.
com and oh, freelancer.
You can do a, you can do acontest where you're like,

(01:06:23):
Hey, design this logo.
And like 80 percent of themare just like AI, whatever.
And yeah, but you can literallyput a bounty of like 50 and
you'll have 500 ideas, whichis, It's valuable in and
of itself But I had tried afew different contests and
then I found this one andI I was like, I like this.

(01:06:43):
He's obviously worked on it.
He put some thought intoit that it said, can you
tweak these two things?
And it was like 30 secondslater, it was done.
It seemed like 30 seconds,probably more like five minutes.
And I was like, okay.
And I just kept sendinghim more and more stuff.
And he is, he's my superpowerto answer your question because
it doesn't matter what it is.
It's like, he was like,Oh, I don't know how to

(01:07:06):
use landing page builders.
Like I've never done it.
And I was like, okay.
Can you try and two dayslater we have like this
beautiful landing page.
I'm like, okay.

Brett (01:07:14):
Let's talk more.
No, it is.
And it is like, you weretalking earlier about leverage.
How do you become the onehour and turn it into hundreds
of thousands of hours?
Yeah.
I've always had this modelthat, you know, it's like, um,
are you familiar with like,uh, gear ratios and all that?
Like you ride a bikeand you change gears.
And MIT has one where they layout a bunch of gears and it,

(01:07:35):
um, the last gear should turnby the end of the universe.
And they predict it wouldhave so much power, it would
flip the world on its head.
Because this, this one spins,you can look it up on, you
know, YouTube, it's like, ifI spin this first one, it's
gonna go, the second one,third one, toot, toot, toot.
Oh, okay.
And so, so, if youpush from this side, of

(01:07:56):
course you're doing this.
But the higher you can getup in that gear ratio, if
you push that fourth level,you just barely touch it.
And this, this one goes, right.
And so that, that's alwayskind of how I've thought of
myself as an integrator too.
It's like, I want to be the top.
I am the top

Keaton (01:08:12):
thing

Brett (01:08:12):
where entrepreneurs whisper it to me like in one
minute and then we filterit and then everything down
the org chart just, okay.
And when you get people likethat, it's the oil, right?
It's the, yeah.

Keaton (01:08:25):
Yeah.
Any hacks for like findingthe person that isn't
searching for the job?
Um, well, tell me more whatyou mean, just in case there's
a couple of ways I couldtake that, but yeah, like for
example, this one, uh, I triedsomeone didn't work out like
for the content production side.
And part of that was my fault,but like, I want someone

(01:08:48):
who like knows high level,but also is charismatic
enough to show up on cameraand has some experience
like that, because it's.
I just, I can't babysitthe process for months
and months before theyactually make a video.
So, it's like this skill oflike, why would they do it
for me when they could justgo do it for themselves?

(01:09:10):
Finding, finding the person thatis in that intersection of like,
maybe needing the money now,and, but also like, protecting
myself, I don't know, there'sso much that goes into that.
But every time I sit down tomake a video, I'm like, yes,
this is, this is a high leveragetask, but how could I, my brain,
that's just the way it works.

(01:09:31):
It's like, how couldI love this even more?
Somebody else ismaking the videos.
I'm providing the funding andthe expertise and the, the
thumbnails and the titles andall of that, which I have a
really good system for, um,

Brett (01:09:43):
anyway, I'd love to hear your take on that.
Yeah.
I mean, I may need somemore detail, but I think I
understand what you're asking.
It's like you're makinga common fallacy that I
also see in entrepreneurs.
And I had a conversationwith one of my clients
about this exact thing.
We put the team off.
Right.
And, and he's like,look, we're like, it was
actually kind of a moment.
He was just like, look, likewe're making this much and

(01:10:04):
they don't have any of it.
They don't get anyof that upside.
How are they going to bemotivated to actually do it?
Kind of the same argument.
Right.
And it's a fallacy becauseyou as an entrepreneur,
have you ever worked like acorporate job or anything?
So you've always been right.
Entrepreneur mindset.
Well, employee mindset, themain difference is they want,
yeah, of course they wantmoney, of course they want,
that's like lottery thing.
They want security, right?

(01:10:26):
And um, and so if they canmake that security now, A,
B, um, to kind of go to yourquestion of finding people
that aren't looking versuspeople that are, like, are
you, for clarification, areyou saying you're looking
for people that are alreadykind of proven and therefore

Keaton (01:10:41):
Yeah, they know high level.
They can make videos.
And they don't want todo it themselves, they
want to work for me, likethat's a, that's a unicorn.
Yeah,

Brett (01:10:49):
so it, it is, but um, okay, your leverage there
is the third one, right?
Is they are tired ofthe bullshit, right?
And so, um, like, one pointI do have to establish as
a logical piece, I'm of thefeel like I've not never, but
like, like people that aren'tmotivated to do things, you're

(01:11:11):
going to hire them to do thingsand expect them to do things.
Like, um, I, I love whenpeople come and it's like,
you can just feel thatheartbeat of I'm ready.
Let's go.
I want this.
Right.
Um, so I, I typicallylook for that.
I don't really trust peoplethat are just kind of like,
well, what do you, you know, um,yeah, the, the motivation, the
incentives are very big becauseI know they'll keep going.

(01:11:33):
Right.
Absolutely.
Um, but yeah, for your specificcase in this, like, I see,
I see what you're saying.
You need someonesomewhat proven.
So maybe they're like 10, 20percent of where you're at, but
they know they'll never get herewithout immense effort in the
pain that you've gone throughin building that backend system.

Keaton (01:11:51):
Maybe.
I don't know.
Like it, it's, I'veconsidered, you know, con
like it's a contract thingwhere they're just enjoy it.
Like maybe there's somesort of X factor that's just
makes that worth it for them.
Yeah.
Yeah.

Brett (01:12:03):
Um.
Well, what's your goal in it?
It's, it's, so you have manymedia companies doing, you
know, doing each, right?
Well, not necessarily.
My goal is just to,

Keaton (01:12:12):
to not have to have the channel reliant
on me sitting down anygiven week to make a video.

Brett (01:12:19):
Dude, so funny.
Yeah.
I, um, a buddy of mineruns a, he's got like a
hundred thousand, I don'tknow, but he, he does like,
you know, One Piece, youever heard of that anime?
Very niche.
Okay.
All we talk.
Gotta beat the algorithm,put out content.
Um.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So I don't know the full again.
So for the sake of this, butthat's the lever point I see.

(01:12:39):
I feel like you don'twant to do that.
That's a pain for you.
There's probably someone elsethat it's a, they, all they
want to do is be on camera andteach people what they know.
They just don't want to,they just want to show
up, do it and get off.

Keaton (01:12:50):
Yeah.

Brett (01:12:51):
Right.
And if they know they'renot going to really.

Keaton (01:12:54):
So what's your hack for finding those people?
Because maybe they're notlooking on, they're not
browsing Indeed every dayfor that kind of thing.

Brett (01:13:03):
You know?
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, what I would do,it goes to two things.
One at the lower label layer,which is every recruiting is
like, if you're a marketer andyou market, you got to make
it sound really sexy, right?
Where it's like, Oh, dang,it pops off the page.
I want that.
Right.
So job ads are just like that.
Um, there's got it.
It's like, Oh yeah.
You know, I see a lot ofpeople, you must do the

(01:13:25):
very rigid, I hate that.
Why would anyone want tocome and work for you and
give everything, most oftheir day to you to try
to make you successful?
Right?
So, A, it's kind of like, Igo blank when I write those,
I'm not even joking, I justlike can feel it and I'm just
like, boom, I seem to weedout, you know, and attract.
But the other part for you,I think you're probably
looking more at cold outreach.

(01:13:46):
You're probably watching alot of who's who and you're
probably looking at thatbottom 25 percent echelon.
Cause you've been fortunateto break that threshold
and a lot of those, they'restill looking up saying
what's, what's the rate.
So that's, that's a prettygood deal for somebody in
the right spot that's justlike, Oh, tomorrow I could
just have this, you know.

(01:14:06):
Um, and then you got a lotof upside you can give if
they're successful, especiallywith the multiples that
you would probably do itin a media company then.
Yeah.
To get a little piece.
It's a good give and take.
You

Keaton (01:14:17):
got a

Brett (01:14:17):
piece as an equity or rev share?
Again, it depends.
It depends on your goals.
Um, you never obviously wantto put yourself in a position
that you're like, yeah,it's probably good today.
And then two years later,like, whoa, what did I do?
Um, yeah.
So you could do percent, percentof the whole thing each year.
Yeah.
I think it's important inthose structures that just

(01:14:38):
always everyone's do it.
Like if you're not a part ofit, like, like you get the
equity, you built all this,you have the asset for others.
It's, uh, they gotto keep bringing it.
Yeah, you know, okay.
Uh, yeah, got it.

Keaton (01:14:53):
Um, so any final words of operational
advice to agency owners?
Yeah,

Brett (01:15:01):
um, Look, man, like a there is a reason there is a
reason Generals on battlefieldsback in the day were in a tent
and they'd lay out a map likesomething visual There's a
reason engineers have blueprintsbefore they start building And
they have window guy, and paintguy, and foundation guy, right?

(01:15:23):
Um, there's a reason aquarterback has a playbook
before, and they don'tjust say, go do whatever
you're going to do.
Um, they coordinate and align tosomething first before they go.
And what's interesting aboutthat blueprint, it's not a
bunch of mathematics, it'snot a click up words that
you can't even read withoutlike taking for, you know,
it's like, it's visuals.

(01:15:43):
Um, and this is theobsession I had.
Have you heard ofBenoit Mandelbrot?
Yeah.
Yeah, I don't think manypeople have, so this is
kind of the geek mode, but,um, basically as a kid, he
was a, a, a mathematicianback in the 80s, or I think
maybe he died in the 80s.
Anyway, he came upwith some cool stuff.
Mm hmm.
Um, fractals, allthat kind of thing.
Oh, wow.
Yeah, he, he basically, insteadof looking at equations,

(01:16:04):
in his head as a kid, hewould turn them into shapes,
and then he would solve itwith, like, visual shapes.
And his whole thing islike X ray, you know,
visual, you need the data.
Um, I don't see enough businesscenters using actual visuals
and laying things out to aligntheir team and get to a result.
And to me, that createsa lot of misalignment.
A lot of people makemistakes and who's the

(01:16:26):
one that pays, right?
At the end of the day, it'salways that agency owner.
So time and time again, it'sthat, and it's as simple as just
saying, you know, so I thinkthat's kind of what I found.
Um, And, um, yeah, operationaladvice, I think, uh, as long
as you have a process thatis clear and people that
are accountable to it, um,yeah, you can get pretty far.

(01:16:46):
Cool.
Would

Keaton (01:16:47):
you say like vision and culture play into that?
Because it doesn't, you haven'tbrought that up yet, but you've
alluded to don't keep thingsfrom your employees, which I
think is, I am guilty of, butnot because I'm, it's more
out of laziness than like,Oh, I don't want them to know

(01:17:08):
this, you know, like I justwant them to, I don't want
to distract them or whatever.
How does vision andvalues play into that?
Um, play into, um, this processand what do you, like, how
do you avoid just talking tothem all day and, but still

(01:17:29):
making sure that they'regetting what they need to and
having the full context sothat they can act without you?
Mm hmm.

Brett (01:17:35):
Yeah.
Well, again, like everythingwe, it's multi layered, right?

Keaton (01:17:40):
Mm hmm.

Brett (01:17:40):
Um.
Mm hmm.
One thing that's very helpfulin most companies I go into
is just really nailing theirdaily meeting structures, right?
Everything in that meeting,like, uh, for this company.
You know, we do a daily30 minutes, everything
needs to be there, right?
You should not have tocontact me, the entrepreneur,
anybody after that becauseyou should come prepared.
Right?
So that daily structure, alot of people that want to

(01:18:01):
live that lifestyle, they'relike, well, I'm just, I'm not
gonna, you know, I'm, I'm good.
But by doing that 30, youactually relieve yourself
of so much more time.
And obviously.
Yeah.
So I would say that'sthe first part that, um,
You know, adjusting thenin those meetings, a
lot of things come out.
No, no, no.
It's not this way.
It's that way.
Like, you know, if you hit agolf ball off one degree at the
point of contact, it actuallygoes like way off course.

(01:18:22):
Yeah.
So it's kind of the same thing.
You, you avoidthose misalignments.
Um, and then, yeah, as faras vision, it can, oh, sorry,
yeah, we're close here,very close, getting closer.
Uh, on the vision part, likeevery entrepreneur knows
their vision and they don't,they kind of think they
know it, but they don't.
So drilling it out of them, italways is like pounding down.

(01:18:43):
Um, so the best you cando, in my opinion, which
is also good and important,it's like Trying to define
Northwest or North, right?
And if everyone moves Northor Northwest, you can always
kind of kick it West or North.
So it's keeping thevision vague, but you
have to lay out a vision.
This is where we're at.
This is where we're going.
And then you, then you kind ofmake your moves along the way.

(01:19:04):
So that is important.
That is the, that is theowner's thing, right?
That is a fun partthat I like to do.
I have like a workshop modelkind of based on EOS, my own
vision where it's like, allright, tell me everything.
Let's make a vision,put it on a board.
Um, those are always enjoyable.
But yeah, theteam's nothing yet.
And honestly, the teamdoesn't even really care.
They just need to knowit and they need to know
it like seven times.
And then they'llstart making decisions

(01:19:25):
towards that direction.
Um, and I'm just kind ofchecking these off the list.
The last one youmentioned was culture.
I'm a believer you can'treally create culture, like
culture is more riding a waveon your surfboard than it is
saying, wave, do this thing.
So the people that come in,how they come back, their
backgrounds, how they reactto questions, how they
communicate, all those factors,you kind of have to write it.

(01:19:46):
So for me, it's like, Um,when I build teams, one of
my favorite things to do, Iwas a quarterback, so I knew
you have that playbook and,um, and yeah, man, I love
just seeing like, okay, thatguy's a lot more assertive.
This person's this, okay,let's make them do a
presentation, make it fun.
Okay.
Now everybody's kindof more bought in.
Let's level up that way.
Um, so, so yeah,that's what I think.

(01:20:08):
I know other peoplehave thoughts.
Nice.

Keaton (01:20:12):
Um, and as far as like, uh, just a hack
or maybe an exercise thatsomeone could do on their own.
Uh, after listening tothis to unlock the next
couple levels of growth.

Brett (01:20:25):
Oh, yeah.
Great.
Um, let's go backto the org chart.
Yeah.
So, like, I do have a course.
I'm going to retouch it upas I've been telling you,
like, I'll get there, like,these twins are getting older.
Um, so, so I have a lot, I'll,I'll, I'll give everything,
you know, give it away.
And there's a lot of that.
Um, but go into the org chart.
Here's a real simple one.
Um, so if you like mystructure and you write
in, you know, make a box,just, just do it on paper.

(01:20:48):
Um, and at the top, writeCEO, write your name, go
to COO, because operationsis a little different than
all the, all the CEO stuff.
You're probably writingyour name in there depending
on your agency size.
Maybe you have someone there.
Um, so write your name in,then write marketing, uh,
sales, fulfillment, admin.
And I want you to write in thename of the person who is truly

(01:21:08):
responsible, that if you werenot involved, who actually is
responsible for the results,that if the results don't get
done, they get fired, right?
Um, And a lot of you, youmight just be like, I think
it's Mary, but actuallylike, Oh, it's actually me.
Right.
Like I've done this.
And a lot of times you're like,shit, I'm actually responsible.
And then you continue that.

(01:21:29):
Right.
If you're doing only Google ads.
Well, who in marketing isresponsible for executing those?
Maybe I have Facebook ads too.
Who's responsible.
Um, and that's the point.
And then from that, I see alot of growth of people that,
that, that then know who theyneed to hire or what SOPs they
need to dump out of their head.
Yeah.
In order to make it so thatthey can do the surgery or bring

(01:21:50):
some, you know, and that totallylightens the load a little bit.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But that's one of them.
That's great.

Keaton (01:21:57):
Cool.
Um, well, for those whowant to see it, the rest
of what's in the bag, uh,you can reach out to Brad

Brett (01:22:04):
on Facebook.
Yeah.
Facebook's great.
Yeah.
Um, yeah.
And I'm, I'm looking forwardto getting out and speaking
again and, uh, Keaton,I really appreciate you.
And it's, it's been great.
Uh, short but fun journeyand, uh, just, just, uh,
letting me come back and kindof get out of my head, um,
with some of these things.

Keaton (01:22:21):
Yeah.
So if you want Brett tospeak, uh, or if you want
him to work with your team.
Reach out to him on Facebook.
We'll have the linkbelow and, um, yeah.
Anything else you want to say?

Brett (01:22:33):
I keep fighting.
It ain't easy, right?
But you know what,you started this.
Uh, so, so, you know,go live your dream.
That's, that's why it is.
Uh, yeah.
Love it.
Cool.
Thanks man.
Thank you.

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

True Crime Tonight

Dateline NBC

Stuff You Should Know

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}SMMA Operations Expert Explains How To Scale To $2M/yr (Proven Framework) w/ Brett Linenkohl

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}True Crime Tonight

Dateline NBC

Stuff You Should Know

All Episodes

SMMA Operations Expert Explains How To Scale To $2M/yr (Proven Framework) w/ Brett Linenkohl

True Crime Tonight