Michael Wolff’s Messy Attempt to Explain Why He Was Helping Epstein

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Molly McPherson (00:00):
Let's start this episode with a line that
should make anyone incommunication sit up a little
straighter.

Joanna Coles (00:05):
You send an email to him saying, I hear CNN is
planning to ask Trump tonightabout his relationship with you,
either on air or in Scrumafterwards.
Um he writes back, if we wereable to craft an answer for him,
what do you think it would be?
And then you say, I think youshould let him hang himself.

A journalist wrote that to Jeffrey Epstein.
Not about exposing him, notabout confronting him, but about
how Epstein should handleDonald Trump.
That journalist was MichaelWolfe, a best-selling Trump
biographer who built his careeron access.
And now the emails he sentEpstein have become their own
crisis case study.

(00:50):
In this episode of the podcast,we are looking at the messaging
behind those emails.
Not the salacious details, notthe conspiracy theories.
There are plenty of otherplaces for that.
And I feel like I've listenedor watched to all of them.
But if you know me, if youlisten to this podcast, you know
I'm always interested in themessaging and also the patterns.

(01:14):
Let's talk about thecommunication patterns buried
inside more than 20,000Epstein-related documents
released last week by the HouseOversight Committee.
Files that show how Epsteinoperated his influence network
from 2009 to the months beforehis 2019 arrest.
Because Wolf's explanation forwhy he sent those emails is one

(01:36):
of the most revealing crisismanagement performances I've
seen in a long time.
It tells you as much about himas it does the emails.
This week, the episode is goingto focus on a long on-air
conversation between MichaelWolf and Joanna Coles on the
Daily Beast podcast.
They released an emergencypodcast because Michael Wolf was

(02:01):
all over those emails.
Joanna Coles pressed Wolf onall the emails with Jeffrey
Epstein.
Joanna Coles, to her credit,really pressed Wolf on these
emails.
And Wolf, we hear, try toexplain, defend, and reframe the
choices he made as a reporterwho ingratiated himself with a

(02:23):
source.
The clips you'll hear comedirectly from that interview.
I have a link to this interviewin the show notes.
I listened to this interviewlast week, along with so many
other podcasts and contentcreators and media outlets and
reporters breaking down whatthey saw in a lot of these

(02:46):
emails.
I kept going back to Wolfbecause he's a journalist.
And because he did thisinterview, I had to focus
squarely on him.
Even though there are a lot ofother people who are wrapped up
in this whole Epstein scandal, Iwant to focus on Wolf because
he's the one who came out anddid this interview with Joanna

(03:07):
Coles, which I have to give himcredit for because everybody
else out there is quiet, mumsthe word.
But this I found interesting.
The emails that came outassociated with Michael Wolf
show him, yes, partly as acurious reporter, but also as a
tactician, someone fluent innarrative engineering, someone

(03:28):
willing to help Epstein shape aresponse to protect his own
interests.
At one point, Wolf warnsEpstein that CNN is preparing to
question Trump about theirrelationship.

You send an email to him saying, I hear CNN is
planning to ask Trump tonightabout his relationship with you,
either on air or in Scrumafterwards.
Epstein immediately asks howTrump should respond.
He writes back, if we were ableto craft an answer for him,
what do you think it would be?
And Wolf answers like someonemanaging a client, not

(04:04):
interviewing a source.
And then you say, I think youshould let him hang himself.
He even frames the potentialbenefit if Trump lies.
If he says he hasn't been onthe plane or to the House, then
that gives you a valuable PR andpolitical currency.
He outlines how Epstein couldweaponize Trump's answer.

(04:25):
You can hang him in a way thatpotentially generates a positive
benefit for you.
And he describes how Epsteincould save Trump to create
leverage.
Or if it really looks like hecould win, you could save him
generating a debt.
That's not reporting.

That's message strategy.
And it puts Wolf squarelyinside the machine he claims to
document.
When Wolf was confronted aboutthis in the interview, he did
what many people under scrutinyoften do.
I see it in the press, I see itin responses, I see it in my
own job.
He minimized.

(05:06):
He called the emailsembarrassing.
He suggested anyone wouldrewrite an email once it became
public.

Michael Wolff (05:19):
Yeah, of course.
You know, emails always are,oh, that's that's uh that's
embarrassing.

Then he reframed the entire situation.
He said he was in a position noone else was in, which is
absolutely true.

I am in this, I am where no one else is.
I am in proximity to a storywhich actually most people don't
see at this point.

He cast himself as the lone truth teller, the
only one who, quote, saw theelemental story.

I'm the person who sees this elemental story.

This is classic crisis framing.
Whether Wolf was trying to dothat or not, it was instinctual
with him, apparently.
But if your behavior looksquestionable, you're elevating
the mission, make it soundnoble, make it sound necessary,
make yourself sound like theinsider who had to break the
rules to expose the truth.
But that's not accountability,that's self-justification.

(06:22):
Now let's look at what Wolfreally admitted, because he was
insisting he was not Epstein'smedia advisor.

In these emails, what strikes me is that you're
frequently giving advice toJeffrey Epstein about how to
handle the media, how to use themedia.
Were you his media advisor?
No, he had.

But everything he describes next contradicts
that.
He explains that his mediaknowledge gave him credibility
with Epstein.
He admits he was acting andplaying a role.

Am I acting?
Am I play acting?
Right.

Are you pretending to be?

Am I playing a role?
And the answer is yes.

Even brags about using charm tactically.

I think as as my mother would say, you get more
with a little honey.

And then he reveals the core belief driving
all this.

This is a story that I have told as often as I
can in as many places that Ican.
The story of Donald Trump'srelationship with this
pedophile, uh a story thatvirtually, and certainly many of
the journalists that are I'msure are now criticizing me have

(07:50):
chosen not to pick up.
And here's the ethical tension.

If the ends matter more than the means start
turning into excuses, andthat's where Wolf lives in this
story.
He wants credit for telling thetruth about Epstein and Trump,
but he does not wantaccountability for how he got
there.
This is a point where I shouldadd, Michael Wolf, even if you
haven't heard of him, youprobably have heard of him.

(08:16):
He's written a number of booksabout President Trump.
In 2018, he wrote Fire and FuryInside the Trump White House,
2019, Siege, Trump Under Fire,2021, Landslide, The Final Days
of the Trump Presidency.
And in 2025, All or Nothing,How Trump Recaptured America.

(08:37):
Each book offers a narrativebased on interviews, inside
access, and sometimes anonymoussources, which has led to the
discussion about the reliabilityand ethics of Wolfe's
reporting, especially as itrelates with his connection to
these Epstein emails.
It makes you wonder how much ofthe information in these books

(08:58):
really came from Epstein sincehe considered him such a key
source.
Since Epstein had an axe togrind against Donald Trump, it's
clear that's where he's gettinga lot of his access.
I can understand the gray areahere.
Now, Michael Wolf lately hasbeen very prolific on social
media.
I follow him on Instagram.

(09:19):
His posts often reveal veryinside information.
It's a fascinating post tofollow.
I'll also include the link inthe show notes.
It's as good for the insideinformation as it is to see
Michael Wolf's home.
I believe he lives in LongIsland, but his home is
absolutely beautiful.
And he always does these postsfrom different rooms.

(09:39):
I have to be honest, many timesI'm just looking at his home
rather than listening to what hehas to say.
But here are the ethical redflags.
I loved following Michael Wolf.
Now, when I look at his posts,I'm always going to look at him
a little bit differently.
Wolf responds to criticism thesame way many people do in a

(10:01):
reputational crisis.
He changes the frame.
He says, I'm not a pedophile,I'm a writer.

I am not a pedophile, I am a writer.

He says he never saw girls or a massage
room.

You're just hearing things.
So, I mean, that was I mean, myrelationship with with Jeffrey
Epstein did not go.
I mean, actually, I have neverin all of the hours that I have
spent with him, I have never,never saw, saw any interaction
with women.

He says he stayed because he had 100 hours
of Epstein talking.

There are hours and hours, upwards of a hundred
hours of Jeffrey Epstein talkingabout many things.

But the absence of witnessing crimes does not
absolve the presence ofcomplicity.
And his own words reveal howfar he was willing to go to
maintain proximity.
Because once you believe thestory is worth any cost, your
ethics start bending without younoticing.
And here's where the researchcomes in.
According to Pew Research, only26% of Americans say they trust

(11:06):
the information media outletsreport.
That was from a study in 2023.
And this is why trust injournalism is scraping the
floor.
When reporters defend troublingbehavior as just how access
works, the public hearssomething very different.
Jake Tapper learned this whenhe published the book Original

(11:27):
Sin about President Joe Bidenchoosing to go ahead with the
nomination as opposed tostepping down.
Jake Tapper received a lot ofblowback from other people in
the press, from the public, fromsocial media.
Heck, even I experienced itwhen I did content just around
that book, which by the way, Ifound that book fascinating.

(11:49):
But a lot of people accusedthem of withholding information
to save it for a book.
And I said at the time, andI'll include a link in the show
notes to my podcast about theoriginal Sin book and the Jake
Tapper issue.
It's that journalists nowadays,to remain relevant on air and
to remain employed, they need tocreate caricatures for

(12:10):
themselves.
They need to have a strongsocial media background and also
content like books to back itup.
Michael Wolfe really is nodifferent than Jake Tapper here.
However, Jake Tapper is on CNNnightly.
Michael Wolf is putting a lotof his energy into these books
and also speaking circuits.
So Michael Wolf is making a lotof money on these books with

(12:34):
his proximity to JeffreyEpstein.
But with the death of Epstein,that's another reason why
Michael Wolf, you know, clearlywanted to keep this information
to himself because the well withJeffrey Epstein ran dry.
So that's why Michael Wolf isscrambling now.
He's falling into the spacewhere people in the middle of a

(12:56):
crisis fall into when they'retrying to justify why they were
doing the right thing.
The rules only matter whenthey're convenient.
Truth is negotiable, andrelationships with power matter
more than ethics, which reallyis the story of how Jeffrey
Epstein got away with everythingthat he did for so many years.
Now, why the media didn't touchthe story?

(13:18):
Wolf says he pitched theseEpstein tapes everywhere to the
networks, the publishers, andstreaming platforms, and that
everyone turned them down.

How many did you pitch, and how many said no?
Do you have any correspondencefrom those interactions?

I I I I certainly do, and everybody has been
pitched.
There is almost no outlet,streamers, networks, cable
stations, and book publisherswho has not been pitched on this
story.

Well, I was gonna ask.

Everyone saying no.

He says they feared lawsuits from Trump.

I think the reason is that they are scared.
They're scared of being sued bythe Trump administration.

And maybe that is true, especially in light of
how litigious the Trumpadministration is and the
attacks against networks.
Look what happened to JimmyKimmel, look what happened to
ABC and to CBS.
But is there a simplerexplanation?
Wolf's own behaviorcontaminated his reporting.
And maybe the news outlets wereseeing that.

(14:23):
Because you cannot act like astrategist for this is not how
credibility works, and it is nothow journalism works, which is
why the story matters now.
Wolf is insisting the realstory here is Donald Trump.
And there's no argument therethat Donald Trump is the central
part of the story.
But for people like us, ifyou're listening, I'm gonna

(14:44):
include you in my little worldhere.
Politically, we know that he'sright.
People do want to know whatTrump knew and what Trump did
and what those emails reveal.

I'm not sure that they realize that the subject
here is not so much JeffreyEpstein, but Donald Trump.

We also like when the curtain is pulled back
and it reveals something else.
We know that Wolf's narrativehere is saying it's vital that
we understand who Trump is.
Quote, who this man is.

Because he is the model of what a leader should
be, of what success looks like.

And there's the irony.
To understand Trump, the publicnow has to understand Wolf, his
methods, his choices, hisboundaries, and the way he used
messaging to defend himself whenthe emails became public.
Because this truth is not justabout Trump or Epstein, it's
about the ugly truth of access.
What money will bring you, whatpower will bring you.

(15:47):
All the people who affiliatedthemselves with Epstein, all
that is slowly coming out.
But also, this is accessjournalism.
When you stay close enough tothe powerful long enough, you
eventually start sounding likeMichael Wolf will keep insisting
that everything he said toEpstein was just a part of

(16:08):
journalism and that ingratiationis a tool, not a betrayal.
And sure, reporters buildtrust.
They earn access, they play thelong game.
I've worked in media my wholelife on both sides.
There was a time that I workedin journalism as well.
I know a lot of reporters.
My guy, he is a reporter.

(16:28):
He is always talking about thepeople who give him access, who
give him stories, who leakthings to him.
I mean, that is a veryimportant part about journalism,
especially when you are thattype of watchdog journalist or
an accountability journalist,which is certainly what Michael
Wolf is.
But Michael Wolf is so close tothe flame, which is why he is

(16:54):
trying to reframe.
Because there's a differencebetween getting close to a
source and becoming a characterin their strategy.
And the emails show Wolf didn'tjust listen, he participated.
And he wasn't just gatheringinformation, he was helping a
predator manage optics.
He wasn't just observing power,he was advising it.
That's the part that makespeople recoil, myself included.

(17:17):
This past weekend, I spent alot of time listening to
podcasts about Jeffrey Epstein,going all the way back.
And not only was this man apredator to young women, which
will make your stomach turn,especially if you read the wolf
emails next to what JeffreyEpstein did to women, but he

(17:38):
also was a predator to peoplewho invested in him.
He was also like a BernieMadoff.
That's getting lost in a lot ofthis.
He was involved in a Ponzischeme and lost a lot of money
for retirees.
And he got off free on that oneas well.
Jeffrey Epstein was dirty,dirty, dirty.

(18:00):
And he always got throughbecause people helped him.
And that's the real concern.
And for journalism, it comesdown to public trust, the
coziness, the power games, themoral corners of journalism
quietly cut out.
And that's an ugly truth inthis entire story.

(18:21):
It's the journalism piece.
It's so disappointing.
I spent time on my live lastweek talking about Megan Kelly,
who was trying to explain thejustification that Jeffrey
Epstein only liked older girlsand therefore it wasn't
pedophilia.
It was so disgusting to listento her.
But I don't even consider her ajournalist anymore.
She is purely a content creatorout for money.

(18:44):
But Michael Wolfe is stillacting as a journalist.
And when a journalist decidesthat the end justifies the mean,
once you start thinking thatway, the audience stops trusting
you.
That's where I think MeganKelly's in that territory,
Tucker Carlson's in thatterritory.
It's former journalists whojust become strictly content
creators around a politicalideology.

(19:04):
You want the conservativeaudience.
So you're going to say and dowhatever it takes to get those
clicks and to get those views.
But when you're a journalistand you're trying to remain
neutral, it gets a little gravefor you.
Because once the audience stopstrusting you, you don't just
lose credibility, you lose theability to hold power to account
at all.
And that's what we've beenwatching play out here.

(19:24):
Not a scandal about one man,but a case study and what
happens when the people taskedwith telling the truth start
operating like the peoplethey're covering.
That's all for this week on thepodcast.
Thanks for listening.
Bye for now.

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Stuff You Should Know

Dateline NBC

The Burden

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Michael Wolff’s Messy Attempt to Explain Why He Was Helping Epstein

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}Stuff You Should Know

Dateline NBC

The Burden

All Episodes

Michael Wolff’s Messy Attempt to Explain Why He Was Helping Epstein

Stuff You Should Know