October 8, 2025 • 36 mins
In this episode, Molly sits down with Jim Rocco and Thom Weidlich, co-authors of Sports Crisis Communications: Cases and Controversies, to explore how the worlds of sports and crisis PR collide. From Tiger Woods’ redemption arc to Aaron Rodgers’ vaccine controversy and Brett Favre’s legal troubles, this candid conversation dissects how athletes, teams, and brands handle scandal when the spotlight turns harsh.
The trio also dives into how social media, fan loyalty, and corporate interests shape the playbook for managing reputation in modern sports. Whether it’s Tom Brady’s conflict of interest, the NFL’s uneasy dance with gambling, or the Dodgers’ Pride Night flip-flop, this episode pulls back the curtain on how power, money, and morality intersect on and off the field.
In this episode:
- Tiger Woods’ image makeover: from scandal to super-dad
- How Aaron Rodgers’ “immunized” comment tested State Farm’s crisis strategy
- Brett Favre, welfare funds, and the price of silence in litigation PR
- The NFL’s resilience (and denial) through scandal after scandal
- When betting meets ball: why gambling is the next big PR minefield
- The Dodgers’ Pride Night controversy and the danger of corporate flip-flopping
- What brands can learn from Dick’s Sporting Goods’ values-based stand
- Why vulnerability (and a good apology) can save an athlete’s reputation
- Tom Brady’s latest “conflict of interest” and the ethics of sports media
- Advice for rising athletes and a few words of wisdom for Bill Belichick
Key takeaway:
Reputation is built long before the crisis hits. Whether you’re a star athlete or a CEO, your credibility bank determines how hard you fall, and how fast you recover.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Molly McPherson (00:04):
All right.
Thanks, Jim and Tom, forjoining me on the podcast.
Love having you guys here thistime of year because the fall is
a great time of year forsports.
So here's my first question foryou.
Tell me your fandom.
Who do you follow in football?
Just football basically.
Jim Rocco (00:20):
Oh, Yankees Giants.
Molly McPherson (00:21):
Oh, God, I should hang up the podcast.
Jim Rocco (00:23):
I'm guessing Patriots and Red Sox.
Molly McPherson (00:26):
Tom, how about you?
I know you said you weren'tmuch of a sportsman.
Thom Weidlich (00:29):
Yeah, one of the ironies is that I'm really not a
sports guy.
I'm a crisis guy.
But I will say I have hadperiods in my life when I was
following the Mets and the Nets.
I am from New Jersey and NewYork.
Molly McPherson (00:40):
But hey, you guys, I'm glad that we had a
chance to speak here.
There was something about yourbook coming in the mail about
sports crisis communications,the cases and the controversy,
and also the background of thetwo of you.
This is truly a melding of asports background, a
journalistic background.
So just give me your brief bioon how you two came together to
put this book together.
Thom Weidlich (01:01):
Yeah, I have a journalism background.
And about 10 years ago, I wentto the dark side, as they say,
but mostly on the crisis side.
So I do crisis communicationsadvising companies and
individuals how to deal with themedia when they have a negative
situation.
Molly McPherson (01:15):
We're essentially in the same business
right there.
And it is a very busy time.
September, I find, is alwaysbusy.
But it's interesting that, Jim,so your firm also has a sports
business.
Jim Rocco (01:24):
Yeah, so about seven years ago, our boss, Jim
Hagerty, found that his sportsfootprint was expanding.
I worked at HBO Sports for anumber of years, and uh the
timing was just right.
I was able to come in, help himout with that stuff, a lot of
straight PR.
And of course, over the pastseven years or so, I've really
gotten acclimated and christenedinto the world of crisis as
well.
Molly McPherson (01:43):
Well, almost every sector obviously has
crisis issues.
Right off the bat, you mentionthe golf background.
When we think of golf andcrisis, we have one name that
comes to the top, which is TigerWoods.
Just in general, how do youthink he navigated from that
very bad Thanksgiving weekend tonow?
(02:04):
Like, where does the industryview a Tiger Woods?
Jim Rocco (02:07):
I think he's become, as he's gotten older, a little
bit more maybe likable or lessharmful.
He's been seen in the media asa great father lately.
That's been where he's at.
We see him not playing anymore,but caddying for his son and
guiding his son through theprocess of becoming, at some
point, he's gonna be acollegiate player.
I think that image has helped,that fatherly image.
(02:28):
And when we see him now, he'sthere with his son and his
daughter and his arms aroundthem and they love him.
I think that's helped hisimage.
History will tell where peopleare gonna have certain biases,
but I think for the most part,he's just gonna go down as one
of the greatest golfers of alltime.
And a guy who's right into theship, how much of it was
purposeful or inadvertently.
I'm not entirely sure.
Molly McPherson (02:48):
Yeah, because looking back on that incident
with his wife, of course, it wasan infidelity scandal that came
right into his sponsorship andjust him being the golden boy of
golf.
But you're absolutely right.
People wanted to still likeTiger Woods, they didn't want to
cast him aside.
I think it's somewhatreasonable that people
understand that there arebreakdowns in marriage, but you
(03:08):
can always be a good parent, andthat's definitely what we're
seeing there.
So let's highlight a couple ofthe crisis examples that you two
talk about in your book, andthey usually involve a superstar
in the sport or like a bigpowerful team.
You know what's interesting aswe were coming up with the
stories to talk about so many ofthese you forget about.
(03:30):
And then you just see aheadline or two, and then it
comes racing back to you.
And the first one is AaronRogers and State Farm, which
brings us back to the days ofthe whole vaccination.
So tell me a little bit aboutwhat happened in that crisis.
Thom Weidlich (03:47):
That goes back to 2021.
You're in the middle of theCOVID, and Rogers, let's say,
fibbed a little about hisvaccination status, and that
became a big scandal.
Jim Rocco (03:58):
Are you vaccinated and what's your stance on
vaccinations?
Thom Weidlich (04:02):
Yeah, I've been immunized.
He's a big spokesman for astate farm, the big insurance
company.
So the question was, how arethey gonna deal with this and
how are they gonna react?
And they basically didn't doanything.
That was noteworthy.
There's a big subject in thebook because sponsorships, what
do you do if you're a marketerand you have a sports spokesman
(04:23):
or a spokesman and they get intotrouble?
That's a reflection on yourbrand.
So that was what we werediscussing there.
Molly McPherson (04:31):
It feels like maybe instead of going the
spokesperson route of handingover it to having a star player
be their spokesperson, as theywent to Jake from State Farm,
who certainly have differentiterations right now, and is one
of the more popular campaignsout there.
So certainly they reign supremecoming out of this particular
crisis.
But the company said their takeon it that you talk about is we
(04:55):
encourage vaccinations, butrespect everyone's right to make
a choice based on theirpersonal circumstances.
So they really stood by theirspokesperson.
Thom Weidlich (05:04):
Yeah.
Now it's such a hot issuebecause a lot of people are
against vaccination.
So if state farm took aposition on one way or the
other, they would upset onegroup or the other.
And that's such a standardissue in crisis.
Molly McPherson (05:17):
Yeah.
So that partnership came to anend two years later.
Where do you see Aaron Rodgersright now as a brand?
Because just in terms of apublic figure, he's certainly
destined for the Hall of Fame,but he's had so many interesting
storylines, certainly movingthe teams, you know, where he is
right now.
I believe he was just chosencaptain.
Jim Rocco (05:38):
He might have been, yeah.
His leadership is undeniable.
Obviously, like you say, he's afuture Hall of Famer, a
seasoned veteran.
Look, he's a quirky guy.
There's just no getting aroundit.
And that served him well in themost part, because I think it's
he was one of those classicguys who wasn't drafted as early
as he wanted and had a chip onhis shoulder and willed himself
to win.
It's a good story.
He was in Green Bay for most ofhis career.
(06:00):
I think he wired his welcomewith the Jets in New York.
We'll see how it ends up inPittsburgh.
But he's just one of those guysthat if you hit your wagon to
him, especially at this point,who he is, what he's about, what
he brings to the table.
Again, history will judge him,but I think Larger he'll be
viewed as a guy who was in hisown little world and made it
work for him.
And uh that's who Aaron Rodgersis.
Molly McPherson (06:19):
Now moving on to another quarterback going
back to Green Bay and a stop atthe Minnesota Vikings, Brett
Favre.
Like he was a different type ofa problematic quarterback.
Jim Rocco (06:29):
So, Jim, tell me a little bit about the background
and what you talk about in thebook about uh so a lot of people
might remember he's had a fewdifferent scandals, but the one
that really occurred after hisplaying career was he pressured
public officials to divert somewelfare money to build a
volleyball port arena at hisalma mater where his daughter
was a member of the volleyballteam.
(06:49):
And of course, there was a textthread that was evidence to all
this.
And it of course hearkened backto the sexting scandal that he
had when he was a player withthe Jets.
So there was precedence there.
And I think Aaron Rodgersprobably is one of those guys
that maybe is thinks he's alittle bit smarter than he
actually is.
I think Brad Favre was alwayslike the football player.
(07:10):
He was that guy who was greaton the field, maybe not didn't
have a whole lot else going on.
And again, football fans maybedon't care about some of that
stuff.
It's not going to tarnish hisimage, his legacy.
They'll forget about it,they'll just remember what he
did on the field.
But I think for the most part,he clearly has some reputational
issues that are part to shakeat this point in his life.
Thom Weidlich (07:30):
We also use this as he's embroiled in this mess
in Mississippi over thesewelfare funds.
So we use it as an example totalk about litigation and
litigation PR, because that's abig I mean, in a certain sense,
it's separate from crisis PR,but they're really kind of
melding.
And we always say that everycrisis has a legal aspect now.
But then you have absolutelitigation, and there's all
(07:53):
sorts of best practices there interms of communications and the
media.
He's basically not doing muchin terms of that.
I don't think he's not tellinghis story at all, really.
But we did use it as a way totalk about the importance of
telling your story even inlitigation.
Molly McPherson (08:10):
Yeah, well, you mentioned that all crises have
a legal implication.
I say that all crises have afinancial implication.
And this usually all problems,the road leads back to money,
certainly which happened in thiscase.
But comparing two quarterbackand even Tiger Woods for that
matter, why does one survive andone doesn't?
(08:31):
And not only that, when he hadthis issue, he was dropped by
Cirrus XM.
He also was dropped by ESPNGame Day.
He's taken a lot of hits onthis, Brett Favre.
Why do you think people droppedhim?
Why were they so quick to drophim compared to other athletes?
Jim Rocco (08:47):
Sometimes I think it matters what you do afterwards.
Like Brett Favre isn't reallydoing a whole lot else.
We're not seeing him outsidedoing anything.
But again, a Tiger Woods ispresent even if he's not
playing, but with his family.
Even an Aaron Rogers is stillplaying.
So his situation is a littlebit different than somebody
who's been retired a number ofyears.
I think this is all we'rehearing about Brett Favre.
If he's not changing thenarrative, there's nothing else
(09:08):
that he's doing right now.
So I think that has somethingto do with it.
And it's easier to drop someonelike that because that's the
case.
Molly McPherson (09:15):
Okay, so now moving on to the culture aspect
of it, sports, right now wherewe are in this season, it's fall
season.
So we're inching closer to thepostseason in baseball, and
we're just kicking off the NFLseason.
Do you think, where do youthink the NFL is right now as
just a league in terms ofreputation?
(09:36):
And if I'm using a scale ofmeasurement, trust, how does the
public feel about the NFL?
Jim Rocco (09:42):
Wow.
I think one thing that we'vefound out with some of the
scandals that there have been inthe NFL, whether they've been
team-related, player related,owner-related, whatever the case
may be, is that they'resomewhat impervious and the
ratings don't really dip.
It's great to have a TaylorSwift bump, but regardless, it's
just as popular as it's everbeen.
The numbers are through theroof.
The Super Bowl always doesgreat.
(10:03):
Even when people have issues,we talk about the whole kneeling
thing during the nationalanthem in the book.
And sure, that was a difficulttime, and it really was a great
political divide.
But people didn't stopwatching.
And if they did, they're backto watching now.
I think reputationally, they'realways gonna have their
challenges, the NFL.
It just seems to be the natureof the beast for them.
But I will never bet againstthem not being able to weather
(10:25):
the storm.
Molly McPherson (10:26):
Well, you said something very telling there in
betting against them.
What is the influence of orimpact of gambling on sports
right now?
Jim Rocco (10:36):
We actually spoke to Bob Cossas about this, who has
an interesting background on hispersonal life about this.
And look, there's so much goingon right now.
Interesting, right now, whatwe're really seeing is Adam
Silver, who of all thecommissioners of the major
sports has probably been the onethat's been the most proactive
in this area and spoken wellabout it from the day he became
commissioner in I think 2014.
And he's still talking about itbecause he advocated very early
(10:58):
on for the legalization.
And of course, with cell phonesnow, it's easier than ever.
And of course, the argument isthat make it legal and we could
control it better.
That seems to be workingbecause they're catching guys
now.
Jonte Porter, a basketballplayer, was banned for life.
It's these watchdog groups thatare out there.
Specifically, prop bets are thebiggest issue.
Like where a guy's talkingabout his personal stats.
(11:18):
We've seen it extend now intothe NCAA recently.
There's talk of minimizing someof the things that there could
be prop bets on because it couldbe a little bit overkill.
Do we have to take every singlepitch in a baseball game?
Is it going to be a ball?
Is it going to be a strike?
It becomes too easy for theplayers to manipulate without
even changing the outcome of thegame.
But years ago, when it wasillegal, it used to be point
shaving and throwing games,throwing the World Series.
(11:40):
Now it's just what seemingly isan innocuous little thing that
should go under the radar,except it's not going under the
radar because there's thesewatchdog groups who are picking
up on it straight away.
So it's all come to a head now.
Thom Weidlich (11:54):
I really think that gambling in terms of
reputation, it's just aminefield for sports.
And I think we're going to seea lot of crises related to that.
Molly McPherson (12:02):
Yeah, they're going to have to untangle it
because we've it's it'ssometimes it seems like we've
come so far since Pete Rose andthe gambling scandal back then,
but then we also haven't.
Jim Rocco (12:13):
So I just out of curiosity, what are your
thoughts on a Pete Rose and aHall and much like some of the
other guys we've spoken about, Ithink time softens things a
little bit, and as thegenerations turn over, I could
pull in somebody from our officehere who's a late 20s sports
fan who, if you explain the PeteRose thing to him, he'd
probably just shrug hisshoulders.
And it's not because he'sindifferent, he's just like,
(12:34):
yeah, that doesn't sound likeso.
I think he might get inposthumously, which probably a
lot of people would have thoughtwas always going to be the
case.
Sure, when you weigh it againstother things, but first we
thought Shohei Otani was goingto be a Pete Rose situation
until it sort of seemed like theinterpreter was the sole bad
guy in all this.
Molly McPherson (12:51):
Well, I have to ask you about that because
that's where immediately wheremy head went.
You work in a lot of sports inthe industry, so you're deeper
in it.
That's the circle that you'rein.
What is the truth behind thematter?
I mean, it felt at the time theinterpreter was the shield, but
then again, now we have AlexCora at the Red Sox.
But no, it just happened wherehe the pitcher where he threw
the ball at his catcher.
Jim Rocco (13:13):
Okay, but I know what you mean.
Yeah.
Molly McPherson (13:14):
Yeah, but in the response, we had the
interpreter.
And how interesting.
We said no, I apologized,everything was fine.
But I thought for sure that theinterpreter was just the
smokescreen, the straw man.
But was there anything morebehind?
Jim Rocco (13:26):
But though Tani, he's been vindicated legally, right?
So we have to go by that.
Maybe it's not completely whatwe've been led to believe now.
I mean, it at you're right.
At the start, it seemed like,okay, could this guy be that
oblivious to his finances?
He didn't realize he wasmissing 16 million and this guy
was just wiping glue.
It sounds a little fishy.
But listen, what a lot ofpeople measure these things by
(13:46):
the results they see.
Watani may be sort ofmachine-like, but he's a human
being, and you would just thinkthat it would affect his
performance.
Well, God, maybe he justcompartmentalizes better than
any athlete who ever lived, buthe had a stellar year last year.
If he had a guilty conscience,it sure didn't show up in his
performance.
So I think that helped a lot.
That perception that, like,this must be the case.
(14:08):
Maybe he's just so married tohis job, is not paying
attention, trusted this guyimplicitly.
Maybe he's just guilty of badjudgment, gave this guy the keys
to his kingdom and couldn'ttrust him because it turned out
the guy was an inveterategambler.
Maybe that's all it is.
I guess you have to give himthe benefit of the doubt,
though, for the most part.
Thom Weidlich (14:24):
But you know, Molly, it was so fascinating to
follow that case in real timebecause of exactly what you're
saying, that everybody thoughtit was one way in the beginning
and it moved so fast.
And that's a big crisis thing,too.
We see a lot of it, you reallydon't know what the facts are at
the beginning, and you justhave to withhold judgment on
certain things.
But if you're doing crisiscommunications, you have to make
(14:44):
sure you have the factsstraight.
Molly McPherson (14:46):
But with sports, because sports, I look
at it as a monoculture.
You have your fans and you haveyour diehard fans and you have
the money.
It seems like so many of theissues fall to the side, whether
it's in fault.
So whether it's gambling orknocking on a garbage can like
the Astros did to the Red Soxand the Yankees.
(15:07):
Okay, I'll give you Yankees.
But there seems like in so manycases, they get passes because
unlike other people, likepoliticians or celebrities or
people in the public eye, theydon't directly impact people,
but people love their athletesand they don't want to see
anything negative about theirathletes.
So they tend to skirt, they getby a lot of times.
(15:30):
So maybe why he doesn't have aguilty conscience, because maybe
a lot of athletes don't seeanything wrong with it either.
Jim Rocco (15:36):
Yeah, a lot of star athletes or any professional
athletes have a little bit ofarrested development because
they've been on a pedestal sincethey were probably a young
teenager.
They stood out so much.
One of the things we talk aboutin the book is what makes a
sports crisis different thanyour average crisis.
And what is it is that it's thedeity of sports stars.
It's just that their reality isa little bit different than the
rest of us.
And they are given passesbecause they're beloved.
(15:58):
It's passion, right?
Is like probably the firstreason that I always talk about.
Is you just don't see emotionslike this elicited in everyday
life.
When you've rooted for a teamyour whole life and you believe
in them and they're about towin, and their biggest rival
destroys them right in the end,it's an opera.
It's tragic and it's brutal.
That transcends real life.
People put so much stock intothat.
Thom Weidlich (16:20):
It works both ways because on the one hand,
okay, say you're the crisiscounselor to some big athlete.
You say, Well, I don't have todo much.
People love them so much, youcan get away with anything.
But on the other hand, you'llbe sleeping at the switch
because after a while that stuffmight catch up with you.
So it works both ways.
Molly McPherson (16:38):
Do you think there are any athletes right now
who are more that scandal orproblems seem to follow them
that it might catch up withthem?
Is there anyone on your radarright now?
Jim Rocco (16:48):
I think anyone, no one specific.
This is why a lot of athletesare closed up, because they know
that the more they open up andthe more they put themselves out
there and show their realpersonality, the more open they
are to criticism that could hurtendorsements could help too.
It depends.
But I think the showier and theflashier you are, the more the
spotlight's gonna be on you.
And maybe you thrive on that.
(17:09):
Everyone's gonna have missteps.
And unfortunately, we know thediscourse in the country at the
moment, I hate to say this, butI think in a lot of ways the bar
has been lowered.
People will look at things nowthat maybe 20, 30, or certainly
40, 50 years ago were momentswhere you said, Oh, God, that's
terrible.
Thom Weidlich (17:23):
And now it's like then that that's not too bad by
today's standards.
I think that's really true.
That's affecting the gamblingissue.
Molly McPherson (17:30):
Yeah.
Another example to bring itback to my home team here, the
Red Sox, I think it was lastseason when Jaron Duran was
playing outfield and he's beingheckled, which he is a player
who's been heckled more than theaverage player out there.
And then there was a homophobicslur that came out, and that
made big instant news, instantnews.
(17:50):
But Jaron Duran as a personshowed such vulnerability
because he was saying, Istruggle when I don't do well.
I struggle.
And the Red Sox worked withNetflix to come out with the
series The Clubhouse, where theysat down and they interviewed
him.
And I know, Jim, this ispainful as a Yankees fan.
Go on and on about the Red Sox.
Yeah, there is some bias there,but I would say this too, even
(18:13):
if this was like an Aaron Judgestory, though the guy's not
faulting right now.
But for someone to say, hey, Iam struggling, they put him in a
different position, and he's soopen and vulnerable with his
struggles.
He was able to turn around,which really a slur at that time
when it happened, would be verychallenging for a team.
They would have to suspend fora significant amount of time.
(18:34):
But there's something about himshowing that vulnerability and
just watching him on Netflixwith the clubhouse.
I think there's somethingthere.
Again, you can be the boldathlete, but when you show
what's happening, and here'sactually another story.
Cade Povich, the pitcher forthe Baltimore Orioles, in the
past few weeks put out a tweeton X with a screen grab showing
(18:55):
what people were sending to hiswife.
Horrible, horrible commentary.
And he put that out there toshow people what it was like,
the grief that they get.
Now, full disclosure, I knowKate, I know his wife.
I was at their wedding, but Iwas shocked.
I mean, I saw that on a newsclip, not from them and friends.
But again, I don't think youwould see that a couple of years
(19:16):
ago.
But here's a young player who'sso new to the majors coming out
and saying something.
Jim Rocco (19:22):
I mean, certainly pre-social media, that stuff
might have been voiced at theballpark anywhere around the
country.
And obviously, some fan basesare a little bit more passionate
and edgy than others.
But now there is a trail, likean electronic trail.
So they might be anonymous, butthat stuff is there for people
to see and for a guy like thatto put out.
So I think that's a bigdifference.
And obviously we could spendoodles of time on social media,
(19:42):
but I think to your point aboutJaron Duran, sure, like a
Netflix series humanizes him,right?
I mean, that's something we ascrisis people talk about all the
time, right?
Is showing that side of themand realizing that he has had
mental health struggles and ittook him a while, but now he's
really peaking.
He's the type of guy you couldroot for, as opposed to just a
guy you want to root against orbe mean towards, or who
unfortunately had a moment wherehe let the pressure get to him
(20:04):
and responded in a way that heshouldn't have.
But that's what second chancesare for, right?
Thom Weidlich (20:09):
The other thing about Duran in terms of the
first incident, the slur earlyon, is he really apologized.
It was a good straightforwardapology, and apologies are a big
part of this, and it's justshocking how bad so many
companies and organizations areat it.
Molly McPherson (20:24):
They are at it, but there's also people will
make apologies and people willdodge as well.
Just curious your thoughts onif we were to look at the NFL
and the CTE issue.
That's one that's being dodged.
So it does that ever catch upwith the NFL or will they keep
giving it the Heisman and keepout running it?
Like, what do you think aboutissues like that?
Jim Rocco (20:45):
It's the latter, it's the Heisman where they're just
going to dodge it.
It's not that they haven'tspoken about it, but again, it's
not the type of thing whereanyone's going to want their
brand of football changed.
We already hear peoplecomplaining about how football's
gone too soft and with the newkickoff rules and protecting the
quarterback and cradling them.
Clearly, the core football fanwants the rough and tumble game
(21:07):
they grew up with.
Can't deny the CTE stuff,right?
It's omnipresent.
Now, when you see the guys whodo wear those extra big helmets,
you're reminded of it.
At least I am when I watch now.
So I think things like thatvisually just bring it to the
surface.
It's no coincidence, I think,that you're going to see like
flag football as an Olympicevent.
Sure, that's to grow the game,but it's also a way to play
football that's a lot safer.
(21:28):
Who knows, 20, 30 years or morebeyond?
Could there be a scenario whereit's flag football and not
contact?
I don't know.
But I think the present-dayfan, a long time lifetime fan,
struggles with that if they wereto even bother to think about
it.
Like, I want need thebrutality, but we don't want
these guys dying before they're50 and suffering these horrible
lives that they sometimes haveto endure because of head
(21:50):
injuries.
Molly McPherson (21:51):
Right, exactly.
So now moving from the athleteitself, and then we talked about
the different major leaguegroups behind it, now thinking
it from more of a corporatepoint of view.
You talk about in your book,the CEO takes us behind the
scenes of a gun sale crisis.
I bet a lot of people wouldforget about this, but in 2019
(22:14):
with gun sales.
And in your book, you point outafter Sandy Hook and after
Stoneham Douglas High School inParkland, Florida, which has
produced a lot of baseballplayers that high school,
including Roman Anthony.
But that was a case where DickSporting Goods had to sit on a
side.
So what do you remember aboutthat?
Writing about that in yourbook?
Thom Weidlich (22:34):
Yeah, we have some stories in there about what
we call sports adjacentcompanies.
Dick Sporting Goods, it's aretailer.
We just thought that was a goodexample of the CEO said we're
gonna cut down on the gun sales.
And he said in an interview atfirst, we were just gonna put
out a press release about it,but then they realized they
needed a much bigger strategy.
(22:54):
So the big thing in crisis ispeople just don't plan.
They just hope nothing bad'sever gonna happen.
Here was a situation where heknew they were doing something
controversial and they had to beready for it.
And he really did that.
Molly McPherson (23:07):
You know, at the time, and I remember
covering it.
It worked.
It came with a lot of bumps,certainly along the way, but
fell on their value system.
And people, I find the publicfrom a public sentiment point of
view, when you go with yourvalues, you're going to get
stakeholders who are going tofollow you through that.
Thom Weidlich (23:23):
Which doesn't mean that you're not going to
lose some revenue and stuff.
Right.
Molly McPherson (23:27):
Yeah.
You're going to take your hitswith that.
And another example that youhighlight in your book as well,
titled here, Dodgers Try toDodge a Bullet.
This was such an interestingstory about LGBTQ plus pride
night in June for the Dodgers.
So, Tom, remind us about thatstory.
Thom Weidlich (23:50):
That's actually the opposite of the Dick
Sporting Goods story.
This was back in 2023, LGBTQnight for the Dodgers.
So they were going to honorthis particular group, the
Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence.
But then there was a backlash.
And because the sisters, theydo demonstrations sometimes in
nuns' outfits.
And so Catholic groups saw thisas an affront.
(24:12):
And the Dodgers eventuallyreneged on the invitation.
But then, of course, you gotbacklash from the gay groups.
And then to the point where theDodgers eventually said, We
will honor that.
But they went so back andforth.
Our point was all that waspredictable, that you were again
in crisis, you always upsetsomebody.
So they should have been awarethat it was going to be an
(24:34):
issue, especially at that timeyou had the I was a Mulrooney
Dylan Mulvania.
It was a hot topic around thattime.
So they really should have beenmore aware if that was going to
happen.
Molly McPherson (24:48):
I think that's what surprised me the most
because you're absolutely right,Tom.
We were in the throes of theBudweiser crisis, which started
in March during March Madness,when Budweiser came out with
that special can, included DylanMulvaney in the campaign.
So that's where it firststarted.
And then it trickled intoApril, where it absolutely
(25:10):
exploded.
And it was still a topic ofconversation because, again, it
brought in values.
And Budweiser, instead ofstanding by it, they absolutely
cut the woman whose idea it wasto do.
And then the CEO went on avictory lap on CBS morning to
talk about why they did it.
At CBS, Gail King sat down withthat CEO for a long time and
(25:32):
gave them the platform to say,we are sticking by our one
stakeholder here.
And it was very obvious whothat was.
It was the typical Budweiserbeer drinker.
So they didn't care.
But then the Dodgers skiddedright into this in June during
Pride Month, which made itreally complicated.
And why I found that crisisinteresting in particular,
(25:53):
because yes, they flip-floppedand they had a lot of pressure.
And if you remember, you youtalk about in your book, it was
Marco Rubio who was one of thenames behind that put a lot of
pressure because, and this goesdeep into it, but this is a part
of it.
It's the Dodgers.
I I was imagining at the timethe front office.
And not everybody in the frontoffice, like being hyper aware
(26:15):
of what happens online.
But then you have still theyoung guys and the front office,
young people who know what'shappening online.
And it was someone who madethat decision as someone who's
not online savvy to know aboutthat blowback.
And then they made that firstdecision.
But what I also foundinteresting and just about that
baseball aspect is yes, theysatisfied the one arm of the
(26:37):
Catholics, the Marco Rubioconservative Catholic, which is
what we have now.
But what they abandoned anddidn't think about were the
other side of the Catholics, alot of their fan base, the
Hispanic fan base, a lot oftheir players, they completely
ignored them.
And that's where a lot of thebacklash came from as well.
And so what happened, Tom?
(26:58):
What did the Dodgers do then?
Thom Weidlich (27:00):
Like you say, it was a flip-flop, and you have
all these stakeholders, andyou're just not looking at
including politicians, right?
Like Michael Rubio.
I think sometimes people dothis in such a bubble, they
don't think about what thereaction's gonna be.
Molly McPherson (27:14):
Yeah, and they had to flip-flop twice, which is
a bad look, which is a very badlook.
Okay, one more because this ismore current, and this is gonna
bring us back into the NFL.
So just yesterday, I wasreading my headlines, and there
pops Tom Brady, who's stillconsidered in these parts of New
England, like the GOAT, andthen he abandoned us.
(27:35):
And now there's some conflictsthere because he's another guy.
Everybody loves Tom Brady.
You knew that he was just gonnawalk into a bucket full of
money.
But Jim, what kind of conflictis Tom Brady dealing with right
now?
Jim Rocco (27:49):
Well, this is pretty interesting, and I'll be as
impartial as I can.
I mean, I I I I you know, as mygiants beat him twice in the
Super Bowl, I could I couldspeak comfortably on his own.
But I do consider him the GOAT.
He absolutely is.
I think you're crazy if youdon't think that he is.
So there's this issue wherehe's a minority owner in the Los
Angeles Raiders, and he's ofcourse also the lead analyst for
(28:12):
Fox Sports and Sunday footballgames.
They treaded lightly on thislast year, last season, and he
wasn't allowed to be in personat any facilities of other teams
for pre-production meetings andthings of that nature.
They've some reason sort ofrolled that back a little bit
now and said we could be thereremotely by Zoom or whatever.
So here's what happened.
Monday night, the Raiders areplaying and he's there in the
(28:33):
coach's box with a coach'sheadset on.
Now, everyone knows he's aminority owner with the Raiders.
So optics are terrible at aminimum, right?
But the thing is, okay, the theNFL statement is what really
sort of made me laugh of howthey dealt with this.
They said there are no policiesthat prohibit an owner from
sitting in a coach's booth orwearing a headset during a game.
(28:55):
Well, he's more than just anowner, he is the lead analyst
for Fox Sports.
And as fact would have it, theRaiders are gonna be playing the
Chiefs, whose game he calledthe day before and presumably
would have had access that noteveryone gets because he gets to
question them and talk to them.
And listen, if you listen toGMs and team owners, some
(29:17):
anonymously, some out front,it's sort of split, you know,
where they say it's not a bigdeal.
We we're not gonna give him thekeys to the kingdom.
If that's just a game of we'renot gonna tell him anything,
then that doesn't help hisbroadcasting credentials.
But the problem with all thisis that it feeds into the
conspiracy theory that TomBrady's on like this lofty level
and enjoys this rarefied airthat no one else gets, and that
(29:39):
these are Tom Brady rules,because I'm pretty sure if it
was anybody else, this justwouldn't be happening.
So look, he could gleaninformation from talking to
these other teams and pass on toraise, and he's an uber
competitive guy.
It's a big part of what madehim so great.
How are we just trusting thathe's gonna resist the urge to
pass something along that heheard?
It's a real problem.
And as long as people keepcomplaining.
Complaining about it.
(30:00):
I'm not quite sure how the NFLis going to deal with it.
I don't think they've dealtwith it well so far.
Even the CEO of Fox Sports waskind of we're not talking about
that at a conference here in NewYork earlier this week.
They got a lot of figuring outto do.
Thom Weidlich (30:12):
I said yesterday at the gym, as the non-sports
person, I don't see how thisisn't a conflict.
It sounds crazy.
Molly McPherson (30:19):
Is there anyone comparable to a Tom Brady where
we could compare it like A-Btesting?
There really isn't.
When you think of owners,commentator, big money, big star
players.
Or anyone like a techie.
Jim Rocco (30:31):
I think this is breaking new ground.
I don't know that there's everbeen a situation like this.
It could pop up again.
You could have a LeBron Jameswho's expressed an interest in
being a team owner one day.
Maybe he'll get intobroadcasting as well.
I don't know.
But obviously, if you're theGOAT, that means you're only
around once a generation in asport.
So there's really not manypeople.
There's not much precedence forsomething like this.
That's part of the reason why Ifind it fascinating, because
(30:53):
this is going to pave the wayfor the future, I think, in
similar situations when they doarrive.
Molly McPherson (30:58):
Yeah.
So looking back at all thesecases from Aaron Rogers to Brett
Favre to Tom Brady, what's thecommon thread you see in sports
crises or sports issues thatmake or break a response?
Jim Rocco (31:11):
I think it's a lot of the regular, I'll call it,
crisis rules do apply as far astimeliness and gathering all the
facts.
A lot of times, as we know, thefirst response is usually
bungled.
It's not handled well in a lotof crises.
I think a lot of that stillapplies.
You have to navigate throughsocial media and what the player
might be ready to say orwilling to say as opposed to
(31:32):
what their reps want him to notto morph off into basketball.
I think we're seeing somethingright now with Kawhi Leonard,
who's been accused of acceptingmoney to go around the salary
cap in basketball.
He hasn't said anything.
The Clippers, his team havespoken, the league has spoken.
He hasn't said anything.
And he's not going to have thatluxury in a few weeks when
training camp and media daystart up again for the NBA.
But I don't know.
(31:53):
For me, I kind of look at itand say, if I'm not guilty, I'm
screaming it from themountaintops.
And whether it's true or not, Ithink this helps him help
people believe that he might beguilty.
Again, that's the opticsbecause he hasn't said a word
yet.
Molly McPherson (32:07):
Right.
Yeah, that's a really goodpoint.
Tom, do you have any thoughtson that?
Thom Weidlich (32:09):
I think it is very similar to just crises
outside the sports world thatthe main issue is people don't
prepare for it.
It's really like, why should Iput so much energy into
preparing for something thatmight never happen?
So that's the big issue.
Molly McPherson (32:24):
So when you think about preparing, I have a
question for both of you.
Since you both work in publicrelations crisis management,
what advice would you give ifyou had the ear of a new
athlete, someone who's a bigcollege star, it's starting to
grow freshman year, maybethey're coming in.
You sit down with them.
What advice would you givethem?
Thom Weidlich (32:42):
We have this concept called the credibility
bank.
And that just meaning that onething that really helps you with
a crisis is to have a goodreputation in the first place.
It really helps you withstand anegative situation.
That would be one thing tofocus on that.
Jim Rocco (32:57):
Yeah, absolutely.
I would add just keeping youreyes wide open and head on a
swivel, be conscious thateverything you say can be fodder
for the media.
There's always a camera or amic on.
And to just be conscious.
This sounds kind of sillybecause Jim Agathew, I mentioned
earlier a boss has this theoryof like putting out social posts
late at night when you're maybeyou're not thinking clearly.
Just wait till the light of daya lot of times to express
(33:18):
certain thoughts, especially ifthere are things that could be
seen as controversial or thatwould alienate some people.
Maybe best to not send it likeat 10 o'clock or 11 o'clock at
night when you may not bethinking as clear as you were
earlier in the day.
Molly McPherson (33:31):
That's great advice.
Okay, so here's my lastquestion.
So here is someone else, andJim, this will be a good segue
between the Patriots and theGiants, actually.
What advice would you give toBill Belichick?
Jim Rocco (33:44):
Right now?
Wow.
Uh you know, he is there's sofew guys in in sports since
media has been a thing that arelike him.
Maybe a Greg Popovit, but he isso unique in the way that he's
conducted himself over theyears, that sort of animosity
mixed with brilliant coachingand just sort of not really
(34:05):
caring who he's pissed off.
He's maybe purposefully and notpurposefully just cultivated
his image.
What did I tell him now?
Go win, continue to be awinner.
Like what you've committed tothis college thing, this
experiment, I'll call it.
And uh look, the whole stuffwith the girlfriend, that's a
whole nother thing.
There's so many differentangles on that.
But at the end of the day,winning cures a lot.
If he could make North Carolinainto a respectable football
(34:29):
program, and I don't think it'sgonna happen in this one year,
one season, if he wants to keepgoing into his mid to late 70s
and coach him to a nationalchampionship, well, God bless
him.
Molly McPherson (34:38):
Tom, do you have anything that?
I know you say you're not not abig football fan, but certainly
you have to be familiar withwhat's happening with the legacy
of Bill Belichick and with hisgirlfriend.
Thom Weidlich (34:47):
Yeah, actually, I only followed it a little bit,
so I'm just gonna agree withwhat Jim said.
Molly McPherson (34:52):
You're gonna agree.
I think it's interestingbecause here you have someone
who has built a legacy, andthat's what you talk about, how
you bank that credibility andyou kind of bank that legacy and
you see someone slowly chipaway at it.
I mean, step by step.
And I also Bill Belchak playsby different media rules that
allowed him to get away withsaying nothing and just kind of
(35:14):
grunting through the pressers,post-game pressers.
But right now, they're askingharder questions.
So when he wants to sell a bookand he's sitting down for a CBS
television interview, you haveto play by media rules and you
have to speak.
And they have the right to askany question, especially about
the news that's being talkedabout right now in the form of
his much younger girlfriend.
(35:34):
All right.
Well, Jim and Tom, thank you somuch for spending the time
speaking with me about thistopic.
And we could go on about thetopic of sports forever, but
your book, Sports, Crisis,Communications, Cases and
Controversy, it's a great bookand it melds both of your
backgrounds togetherbeautifully.
So I encourage anyone who'sinterested in both to check it
(35:55):
out.
Jim Rocco (35:56):
Appreciate you having us.
All right.
Thanks, Jim and Tom, forjoining me on the podcast.
Love having you guys here thistime of year because the fall is
a great time of year forsports.
So here's my first question foryou.
Tell me your fandom.
Who do you follow in football?
Just football basically.
Jim Rocco (00:20):
Oh, Yankees Giants.
Molly McPherson (00:21):
Oh, God, I should hang up the podcast.
Jim Rocco (00:23):
I'm guessing Patriots and Red Sox.
Molly McPherson (00:26):
Tom, how about you?
I know you said you weren'tmuch of a sportsman.
Thom Weidlich (00:29):
Yeah, one of the ironies is that I'm really not a
sports guy.
I'm a crisis guy.
But I will say I have hadperiods in my life when I was
following the Mets and the Nets.
I am from New Jersey and NewYork.
Molly McPherson (00:40):
But hey, you guys, I'm glad that we had a
chance to speak here.
There was something about yourbook coming in the mail about
sports crisis communications,the cases and the controversy,
and also the background of thetwo of you.
This is truly a melding of asports background, a
journalistic background.
So just give me your brief bioon how you two came together to
put this book together.
Thom Weidlich (01:01):
Yeah, I have a journalism background.
And about 10 years ago, I wentto the dark side, as they say,
but mostly on the crisis side.
So I do crisis communicationsadvising companies and
individuals how to deal with themedia when they have a negative
situation.
Molly McPherson (01:15):
We're essentially in the same business
right there.
And it is a very busy time.
September, I find, is alwaysbusy.
But it's interesting that, Jim,so your firm also has a sports
business.
Jim Rocco (01:24):
Yeah, so about seven years ago, our boss, Jim
Hagerty, found that his sportsfootprint was expanding.
I worked at HBO Sports for anumber of years, and uh the
timing was just right.
I was able to come in, help himout with that stuff, a lot of
straight PR.
And of course, over the pastseven years or so, I've really
gotten acclimated and christenedinto the world of crisis as
well.
Molly McPherson (01:43):
Well, almost every sector obviously has
crisis issues.
Right off the bat, you mentionthe golf background.
When we think of golf andcrisis, we have one name that
comes to the top, which is TigerWoods.
Just in general, how do youthink he navigated from that
very bad Thanksgiving weekend tonow?
(02:04):
Like, where does the industryview a Tiger Woods?
Jim Rocco (02:07):
I think he's become, as he's gotten older, a little
bit more maybe likable or lessharmful.
He's been seen in the media asa great father lately.
That's been where he's at.
We see him not playing anymore,but caddying for his son and
guiding his son through theprocess of becoming, at some
point, he's gonna be acollegiate player.
I think that image has helped,that fatherly image.
(02:28):
And when we see him now, he'sthere with his son and his
daughter and his arms aroundthem and they love him.
I think that's helped hisimage.
History will tell where peopleare gonna have certain biases,
but I think for the most part,he's just gonna go down as one
of the greatest golfers of alltime.
And a guy who's right into theship, how much of it was
purposeful or inadvertently.
I'm not entirely sure.
Molly McPherson (02:48):
Yeah, because looking back on that incident
with his wife, of course, it wasan infidelity scandal that came
right into his sponsorship andjust him being the golden boy of
golf.
But you're absolutely right.
People wanted to still likeTiger Woods, they didn't want to
cast him aside.
I think it's somewhatreasonable that people
understand that there arebreakdowns in marriage, but you
(03:08):
can always be a good parent, andthat's definitely what we're
seeing there.
So let's highlight a couple ofthe crisis examples that you two
talk about in your book, andthey usually involve a superstar
in the sport or like a bigpowerful team.
You know what's interesting aswe were coming up with the
stories to talk about so many ofthese you forget about.
(03:30):
And then you just see aheadline or two, and then it
comes racing back to you.
And the first one is AaronRogers and State Farm, which
brings us back to the days ofthe whole vaccination.
So tell me a little bit aboutwhat happened in that crisis.
Thom Weidlich (03:47):
That goes back to 2021.
You're in the middle of theCOVID, and Rogers, let's say,
fibbed a little about hisvaccination status, and that
became a big scandal.
Jim Rocco (03:58):
Are you vaccinated and what's your stance on
vaccinations?
Thom Weidlich (04:02):
Yeah, I've been immunized.
He's a big spokesman for astate farm, the big insurance
company.
So the question was, how arethey gonna deal with this and
how are they gonna react?
And they basically didn't doanything.
That was noteworthy.
There's a big subject in thebook because sponsorships, what
do you do if you're a marketerand you have a sports spokesman
(04:23):
or a spokesman and they get intotrouble?
That's a reflection on yourbrand.
So that was what we werediscussing there.
Molly McPherson (04:31):
It feels like maybe instead of going the
spokesperson route of handingover it to having a star player
be their spokesperson, as theywent to Jake from State Farm,
who certainly have differentiterations right now, and is one
of the more popular campaignsout there.
So certainly they reign supremecoming out of this particular
crisis.
But the company said their takeon it that you talk about is we
(04:55):
encourage vaccinations, butrespect everyone's right to make
a choice based on theirpersonal circumstances.
So they really stood by theirspokesperson.
Thom Weidlich (05:04):
Yeah.
Now it's such a hot issuebecause a lot of people are
against vaccination.
So if state farm took aposition on one way or the
other, they would upset onegroup or the other.
And that's such a standardissue in crisis.
Molly McPherson (05:17):
Yeah.
So that partnership came to anend two years later.
Where do you see Aaron Rodgersright now as a brand?
Because just in terms of apublic figure, he's certainly
destined for the Hall of Fame,but he's had so many interesting
storylines, certainly movingthe teams, you know, where he is
right now.
I believe he was just chosencaptain.
Jim Rocco (05:38):
He might have been, yeah.
His leadership is undeniable.
Obviously, like you say, he's afuture Hall of Famer, a
seasoned veteran.
Look, he's a quirky guy.
There's just no getting aroundit.
And that served him well in themost part, because I think it's
he was one of those classicguys who wasn't drafted as early
as he wanted and had a chip onhis shoulder and willed himself
to win.
It's a good story.
He was in Green Bay for most ofhis career.
(06:00):
I think he wired his welcomewith the Jets in New York.
We'll see how it ends up inPittsburgh.
But he's just one of those guysthat if you hit your wagon to
him, especially at this point,who he is, what he's about, what
he brings to the table.
Again, history will judge him,but I think Larger he'll be
viewed as a guy who was in hisown little world and made it
work for him.
And uh that's who Aaron Rodgersis.
Molly McPherson (06:19):
Now moving on to another quarterback going
back to Green Bay and a stop atthe Minnesota Vikings, Brett
Favre.
Like he was a different type ofa problematic quarterback.
Jim Rocco (06:29):
So, Jim, tell me a little bit about the background
and what you talk about in thebook about uh so a lot of people
might remember he's had a fewdifferent scandals, but the one
that really occurred after hisplaying career was he pressured
public officials to divert somewelfare money to build a
volleyball port arena at hisalma mater where his daughter
was a member of the volleyballteam.
(06:49):
And of course, there was a textthread that was evidence to all
this.
And it of course hearkened backto the sexting scandal that he
had when he was a player withthe Jets.
So there was precedence there.
And I think Aaron Rodgersprobably is one of those guys
that maybe is thinks he's alittle bit smarter than he
actually is.
I think Brad Favre was alwayslike the football player.
(07:10):
He was that guy who was greaton the field, maybe not didn't
have a whole lot else going on.
And again, football fans maybedon't care about some of that
stuff.
It's not going to tarnish hisimage, his legacy.
They'll forget about it,they'll just remember what he
did on the field.
But I think for the most part,he clearly has some reputational
issues that are part to shakeat this point in his life.
Thom Weidlich (07:30):
We also use this as he's embroiled in this mess
in Mississippi over thesewelfare funds.
So we use it as an example totalk about litigation and
litigation PR, because that's abig I mean, in a certain sense,
it's separate from crisis PR,but they're really kind of
melding.
And we always say that everycrisis has a legal aspect now.
But then you have absolutelitigation, and there's all
(07:53):
sorts of best practices there interms of communications and the
media.
He's basically not doing muchin terms of that.
I don't think he's not tellinghis story at all, really.
But we did use it as a way totalk about the importance of
telling your story even inlitigation.
Molly McPherson (08:10):
Yeah, well, you mentioned that all crises have
a legal implication.
I say that all crises have afinancial implication.
And this usually all problems,the road leads back to money,
certainly which happened in thiscase.
But comparing two quarterbackand even Tiger Woods for that
matter, why does one survive andone doesn't?
(08:31):
And not only that, when he hadthis issue, he was dropped by
Cirrus XM.
He also was dropped by ESPNGame Day.
He's taken a lot of hits onthis, Brett Favre.
Why do you think people droppedhim?
Why were they so quick to drophim compared to other athletes?
Jim Rocco (08:47):
Sometimes I think it matters what you do afterwards.
Like Brett Favre isn't reallydoing a whole lot else.
We're not seeing him outsidedoing anything.
But again, a Tiger Woods ispresent even if he's not
playing, but with his family.
Even an Aaron Rogers is stillplaying.
So his situation is a littlebit different than somebody
who's been retired a number ofyears.
I think this is all we'rehearing about Brett Favre.
If he's not changing thenarrative, there's nothing else
(09:08):
that he's doing right now.
So I think that has somethingto do with it.
And it's easier to drop someonelike that because that's the
case.
Molly McPherson (09:15):
Okay, so now moving on to the culture aspect
of it, sports, right now wherewe are in this season, it's fall
season.
So we're inching closer to thepostseason in baseball, and
we're just kicking off the NFLseason.
Do you think, where do youthink the NFL is right now as
just a league in terms ofreputation?
(09:36):
And if I'm using a scale ofmeasurement, trust, how does the
public feel about the NFL?
Jim Rocco (09:42):
Wow.
I think one thing that we'vefound out with some of the
scandals that there have been inthe NFL, whether they've been
team-related, player related,owner-related, whatever the case
may be, is that they'resomewhat impervious and the
ratings don't really dip.
It's great to have a TaylorSwift bump, but regardless, it's
just as popular as it's everbeen.
The numbers are through theroof.
The Super Bowl always doesgreat.
(10:03):
Even when people have issues,we talk about the whole kneeling
thing during the nationalanthem in the book.
And sure, that was a difficulttime, and it really was a great
political divide.
But people didn't stopwatching.
And if they did, they're backto watching now.
I think reputationally, they'realways gonna have their
challenges, the NFL.
It just seems to be the natureof the beast for them.
But I will never bet againstthem not being able to weather
(10:25):
the storm.
Molly McPherson (10:26):
Well, you said something very telling there in
betting against them.
What is the influence of orimpact of gambling on sports
right now?
Jim Rocco (10:36):
We actually spoke to Bob Cossas about this, who has
an interesting background on hispersonal life about this.
And look, there's so much goingon right now.
Interesting, right now, whatwe're really seeing is Adam
Silver, who of all thecommissioners of the major
sports has probably been the onethat's been the most proactive
in this area and spoken wellabout it from the day he became
commissioner in I think 2014.
And he's still talking about itbecause he advocated very early
(10:58):
on for the legalization.
And of course, with cell phonesnow, it's easier than ever.
And of course, the argument isthat make it legal and we could
control it better.
That seems to be workingbecause they're catching guys
now.
Jonte Porter, a basketballplayer, was banned for life.
It's these watchdog groups thatare out there.
Specifically, prop bets are thebiggest issue.
Like where a guy's talkingabout his personal stats.
(11:18):
We've seen it extend now intothe NCAA recently.
There's talk of minimizing someof the things that there could
be prop bets on because it couldbe a little bit overkill.
Do we have to take every singlepitch in a baseball game?
Is it going to be a ball?
Is it going to be a strike?
It becomes too easy for theplayers to manipulate without
even changing the outcome of thegame.
But years ago, when it wasillegal, it used to be point
shaving and throwing games,throwing the World Series.
(11:40):
Now it's just what seemingly isan innocuous little thing that
should go under the radar,except it's not going under the
radar because there's thesewatchdog groups who are picking
up on it straight away.
So it's all come to a head now.
Thom Weidlich (11:54):
I really think that gambling in terms of
reputation, it's just aminefield for sports.
And I think we're going to seea lot of crises related to that.
Molly McPherson (12:02):
Yeah, they're going to have to untangle it
because we've it's it'ssometimes it seems like we've
come so far since Pete Rose andthe gambling scandal back then,
but then we also haven't.
Jim Rocco (12:13):
So I just out of curiosity, what are your
thoughts on a Pete Rose and aHall and much like some of the
other guys we've spoken about, Ithink time softens things a
little bit, and as thegenerations turn over, I could
pull in somebody from our officehere who's a late 20s sports
fan who, if you explain the PeteRose thing to him, he'd
probably just shrug hisshoulders.
And it's not because he'sindifferent, he's just like,
(12:34):
yeah, that doesn't sound likeso.
I think he might get inposthumously, which probably a
lot of people would have thoughtwas always going to be the
case.
Sure, when you weigh it againstother things, but first we
thought Shohei Otani was goingto be a Pete Rose situation
until it sort of seemed like theinterpreter was the sole bad
guy in all this.
Molly McPherson (12:51):
Well, I have to ask you about that because
that's where immediately wheremy head went.
You work in a lot of sports inthe industry, so you're deeper
in it.
That's the circle that you'rein.
What is the truth behind thematter?
I mean, it felt at the time theinterpreter was the shield, but
then again, now we have AlexCora at the Red Sox.
But no, it just happened wherehe the pitcher where he threw
the ball at his catcher.
Jim Rocco (13:13):
Okay, but I know what you mean.
Yeah.
Molly McPherson (13:14):
Yeah, but in the response, we had the
interpreter.
And how interesting.
We said no, I apologized,everything was fine.
But I thought for sure that theinterpreter was just the
smokescreen, the straw man.
But was there anything morebehind?
Jim Rocco (13:26):
But though Tani, he's been vindicated legally, right?
So we have to go by that.
Maybe it's not completely whatwe've been led to believe now.
I mean, it at you're right.
At the start, it seemed like,okay, could this guy be that
oblivious to his finances?
He didn't realize he wasmissing 16 million and this guy
was just wiping glue.
It sounds a little fishy.
But listen, what a lot ofpeople measure these things by
(13:46):
the results they see.
Watani may be sort ofmachine-like, but he's a human
being, and you would just thinkthat it would affect his
performance.
Well, God, maybe he justcompartmentalizes better than
any athlete who ever lived, buthe had a stellar year last year.
If he had a guilty conscience,it sure didn't show up in his
performance.
So I think that helped a lot.
That perception that, like,this must be the case.
(14:08):
Maybe he's just so married tohis job, is not paying
attention, trusted this guyimplicitly.
Maybe he's just guilty of badjudgment, gave this guy the keys
to his kingdom and couldn'ttrust him because it turned out
the guy was an inveterategambler.
Maybe that's all it is.
I guess you have to give himthe benefit of the doubt,
though, for the most part.
Thom Weidlich (14:24):
But you know, Molly, it was so fascinating to
follow that case in real timebecause of exactly what you're
saying, that everybody thoughtit was one way in the beginning
and it moved so fast.
And that's a big crisis thing,too.
We see a lot of it, you reallydon't know what the facts are at
the beginning, and you justhave to withhold judgment on
certain things.
But if you're doing crisiscommunications, you have to make
(14:44):
sure you have the factsstraight.
Molly McPherson (14:46):
But with sports, because sports, I look
at it as a monoculture.
You have your fans and you haveyour diehard fans and you have
the money.
It seems like so many of theissues fall to the side, whether
it's in fault.
So whether it's gambling orknocking on a garbage can like
the Astros did to the Red Soxand the Yankees.
(15:07):
Okay, I'll give you Yankees.
But there seems like in so manycases, they get passes because
unlike other people, likepoliticians or celebrities or
people in the public eye, theydon't directly impact people,
but people love their athletesand they don't want to see
anything negative about theirathletes.
So they tend to skirt, they getby a lot of times.
(15:30):
So maybe why he doesn't have aguilty conscience, because maybe
a lot of athletes don't seeanything wrong with it either.
Jim Rocco (15:36):
Yeah, a lot of star athletes or any professional
athletes have a little bit ofarrested development because
they've been on a pedestal sincethey were probably a young
teenager.
They stood out so much.
One of the things we talk aboutin the book is what makes a
sports crisis different thanyour average crisis.
And what is it is that it's thedeity of sports stars.
It's just that their reality isa little bit different than the
rest of us.
And they are given passesbecause they're beloved.
(15:58):
It's passion, right?
Is like probably the firstreason that I always talk about.
Is you just don't see emotionslike this elicited in everyday
life.
When you've rooted for a teamyour whole life and you believe
in them and they're about towin, and their biggest rival
destroys them right in the end,it's an opera.
It's tragic and it's brutal.
That transcends real life.
People put so much stock intothat.
Thom Weidlich (16:20):
It works both ways because on the one hand,
okay, say you're the crisiscounselor to some big athlete.
You say, Well, I don't have todo much.
People love them so much, youcan get away with anything.
But on the other hand, you'llbe sleeping at the switch
because after a while that stuffmight catch up with you.
So it works both ways.
Molly McPherson (16:38):
Do you think there are any athletes right now
who are more that scandal orproblems seem to follow them
that it might catch up withthem?
Is there anyone on your radarright now?
Jim Rocco (16:48):
I think anyone, no one specific.
This is why a lot of athletesare closed up, because they know
that the more they open up andthe more they put themselves out
there and show their realpersonality, the more open they
are to criticism that could hurtendorsements could help too.
It depends.
But I think the showier and theflashier you are, the more the
spotlight's gonna be on you.
And maybe you thrive on that.
(17:09):
Everyone's gonna have missteps.
And unfortunately, we know thediscourse in the country at the
moment, I hate to say this, butI think in a lot of ways the bar
has been lowered.
People will look at things nowthat maybe 20, 30, or certainly
40, 50 years ago were momentswhere you said, Oh, God, that's
terrible.
Thom Weidlich (17:23):
And now it's like then that that's not too bad by
today's standards.
I think that's really true.
That's affecting the gamblingissue.
Molly McPherson (17:30):
Yeah.
Another example to bring itback to my home team here, the
Red Sox, I think it was lastseason when Jaron Duran was
playing outfield and he's beingheckled, which he is a player
who's been heckled more than theaverage player out there.
And then there was a homophobicslur that came out, and that
made big instant news, instantnews.
(17:50):
But Jaron Duran as a personshowed such vulnerability
because he was saying, Istruggle when I don't do well.
I struggle.
And the Red Sox worked withNetflix to come out with the
series The Clubhouse, where theysat down and they interviewed
him.
And I know, Jim, this ispainful as a Yankees fan.
Go on and on about the Red Sox.
Yeah, there is some bias there,but I would say this too, even
(18:13):
if this was like an Aaron Judgestory, though the guy's not
faulting right now.
But for someone to say, hey, Iam struggling, they put him in a
different position, and he's soopen and vulnerable with his
struggles.
He was able to turn around,which really a slur at that time
when it happened, would be verychallenging for a team.
They would have to suspend fora significant amount of time.
(18:34):
But there's something about himshowing that vulnerability and
just watching him on Netflixwith the clubhouse.
I think there's somethingthere.
Again, you can be the boldathlete, but when you show
what's happening, and here'sactually another story.
Cade Povich, the pitcher forthe Baltimore Orioles, in the
past few weeks put out a tweeton X with a screen grab showing
(18:55):
what people were sending to hiswife.
Horrible, horrible commentary.
And he put that out there toshow people what it was like,
the grief that they get.
Now, full disclosure, I knowKate, I know his wife.
I was at their wedding, but Iwas shocked.
I mean, I saw that on a newsclip, not from them and friends.
But again, I don't think youwould see that a couple of years
(19:16):
ago.
But here's a young player who'sso new to the majors coming out
and saying something.
Jim Rocco (19:22):
I mean, certainly pre-social media, that stuff
might have been voiced at theballpark anywhere around the
country.
And obviously, some fan basesare a little bit more passionate
and edgy than others.
But now there is a trail, likean electronic trail.
So they might be anonymous, butthat stuff is there for people
to see and for a guy like thatto put out.
So I think that's a bigdifference.
And obviously we could spendoodles of time on social media,
(19:42):
but I think to your point aboutJaron Duran, sure, like a
Netflix series humanizes him,right?
I mean, that's something we ascrisis people talk about all the
time, right?
Is showing that side of themand realizing that he has had
mental health struggles and ittook him a while, but now he's
really peaking.
He's the type of guy you couldroot for, as opposed to just a
guy you want to root against orbe mean towards, or who
unfortunately had a moment wherehe let the pressure get to him
(20:04):
and responded in a way that heshouldn't have.
But that's what second chancesare for, right?
Thom Weidlich (20:09):
The other thing about Duran in terms of the
first incident, the slur earlyon, is he really apologized.
It was a good straightforwardapology, and apologies are a big
part of this, and it's justshocking how bad so many
companies and organizations areat it.
Molly McPherson (20:24):
They are at it, but there's also people will
make apologies and people willdodge as well.
Just curious your thoughts onif we were to look at the NFL
and the CTE issue.
That's one that's being dodged.
So it does that ever catch upwith the NFL or will they keep
giving it the Heisman and keepout running it?
Like, what do you think aboutissues like that?
Jim Rocco (20:45):
It's the latter, it's the Heisman where they're just
going to dodge it.
It's not that they haven'tspoken about it, but again, it's
not the type of thing whereanyone's going to want their
brand of football changed.
We already hear peoplecomplaining about how football's
gone too soft and with the newkickoff rules and protecting the
quarterback and cradling them.
Clearly, the core football fanwants the rough and tumble game
(21:07):
they grew up with.
Can't deny the CTE stuff,right?
It's omnipresent.
Now, when you see the guys whodo wear those extra big helmets,
you're reminded of it.
At least I am when I watch now.
So I think things like thatvisually just bring it to the
surface.
It's no coincidence, I think,that you're going to see like
flag football as an Olympicevent.
Sure, that's to grow the game,but it's also a way to play
football that's a lot safer.
(21:28):
Who knows, 20, 30 years or morebeyond?
Could there be a scenario whereit's flag football and not
contact?
I don't know.
But I think the present-dayfan, a long time lifetime fan,
struggles with that if they wereto even bother to think about
it.
Like, I want need thebrutality, but we don't want
these guys dying before they're50 and suffering these horrible
lives that they sometimes haveto endure because of head
(21:50):
injuries.
Molly McPherson (21:51):
Right, exactly.
So now moving from the athleteitself, and then we talked about
the different major leaguegroups behind it, now thinking
it from more of a corporatepoint of view.
You talk about in your book,the CEO takes us behind the
scenes of a gun sale crisis.
I bet a lot of people wouldforget about this, but in 2019
(22:14):
with gun sales.
And in your book, you point outafter Sandy Hook and after
Stoneham Douglas High School inParkland, Florida, which has
produced a lot of baseballplayers that high school,
including Roman Anthony.
But that was a case where DickSporting Goods had to sit on a
side.
So what do you remember aboutthat?
Writing about that in yourbook?
Thom Weidlich (22:34):
Yeah, we have some stories in there about what
we call sports adjacentcompanies.
Dick Sporting Goods, it's aretailer.
We just thought that was a goodexample of the CEO said we're
gonna cut down on the gun sales.
And he said in an interview atfirst, we were just gonna put
out a press release about it,but then they realized they
needed a much bigger strategy.
(22:54):
So the big thing in crisis ispeople just don't plan.
They just hope nothing bad'sever gonna happen.
Here was a situation where heknew they were doing something
controversial and they had to beready for it.
And he really did that.
Molly McPherson (23:07):
You know, at the time, and I remember
covering it.
It worked.
It came with a lot of bumps,certainly along the way, but
fell on their value system.
And people, I find the publicfrom a public sentiment point of
view, when you go with yourvalues, you're going to get
stakeholders who are going tofollow you through that.
Thom Weidlich (23:23):
Which doesn't mean that you're not going to
lose some revenue and stuff.
Right.
Molly McPherson (23:27):
Yeah.
You're going to take your hitswith that.
And another example that youhighlight in your book as well,
titled here, Dodgers Try toDodge a Bullet.
This was such an interestingstory about LGBTQ plus pride
night in June for the Dodgers.
So, Tom, remind us about thatstory.
Thom Weidlich (23:50):
That's actually the opposite of the Dick
Sporting Goods story.
This was back in 2023, LGBTQnight for the Dodgers.
So they were going to honorthis particular group, the
Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence.
But then there was a backlash.
And because the sisters, theydo demonstrations sometimes in
nuns' outfits.
And so Catholic groups saw thisas an affront.
(24:12):
And the Dodgers eventuallyreneged on the invitation.
But then, of course, you gotbacklash from the gay groups.
And then to the point where theDodgers eventually said, We
will honor that.
But they went so back andforth.
Our point was all that waspredictable, that you were again
in crisis, you always upsetsomebody.
So they should have been awarethat it was going to be an
(24:34):
issue, especially at that timeyou had the I was a Mulrooney
Dylan Mulvania.
It was a hot topic around thattime.
So they really should have beenmore aware if that was going to
happen.
Molly McPherson (24:48):
I think that's what surprised me the most
because you're absolutely right,Tom.
We were in the throes of theBudweiser crisis, which started
in March during March Madness,when Budweiser came out with
that special can, included DylanMulvaney in the campaign.
So that's where it firststarted.
And then it trickled intoApril, where it absolutely
(25:10):
exploded.
And it was still a topic ofconversation because, again, it
brought in values.
And Budweiser, instead ofstanding by it, they absolutely
cut the woman whose idea it wasto do.
And then the CEO went on avictory lap on CBS morning to
talk about why they did it.
At CBS, Gail King sat down withthat CEO for a long time and
(25:32):
gave them the platform to say,we are sticking by our one
stakeholder here.
And it was very obvious whothat was.
It was the typical Budweiserbeer drinker.
So they didn't care.
But then the Dodgers skiddedright into this in June during
Pride Month, which made itreally complicated.
And why I found that crisisinteresting in particular,
(25:53):
because yes, they flip-floppedand they had a lot of pressure.
And if you remember, you youtalk about in your book, it was
Marco Rubio who was one of thenames behind that put a lot of
pressure because, and this goesdeep into it, but this is a part
of it.
It's the Dodgers.
I I was imagining at the timethe front office.
And not everybody in the frontoffice, like being hyper aware
(26:15):
of what happens online.
But then you have still theyoung guys and the front office,
young people who know what'shappening online.
And it was someone who madethat decision as someone who's
not online savvy to know aboutthat blowback.
And then they made that firstdecision.
But what I also foundinteresting and just about that
baseball aspect is yes, theysatisfied the one arm of the
(26:37):
Catholics, the Marco Rubioconservative Catholic, which is
what we have now.
But what they abandoned anddidn't think about were the
other side of the Catholics, alot of their fan base, the
Hispanic fan base, a lot oftheir players, they completely
ignored them.
And that's where a lot of thebacklash came from as well.
And so what happened, Tom?
(26:58):
What did the Dodgers do then?
Thom Weidlich (27:00):
Like you say, it was a flip-flop, and you have
all these stakeholders, andyou're just not looking at
including politicians, right?
Like Michael Rubio.
I think sometimes people dothis in such a bubble, they
don't think about what thereaction's gonna be.
Molly McPherson (27:14):
Yeah, and they had to flip-flop twice, which is
a bad look, which is a very badlook.
Okay, one more because this ismore current, and this is gonna
bring us back into the NFL.
So just yesterday, I wasreading my headlines, and there
pops Tom Brady, who's stillconsidered in these parts of New
England, like the GOAT, andthen he abandoned us.
(27:35):
And now there's some conflictsthere because he's another guy.
Everybody loves Tom Brady.
You knew that he was just gonnawalk into a bucket full of
money.
But Jim, what kind of conflictis Tom Brady dealing with right
now?
Jim Rocco (27:49):
Well, this is pretty interesting, and I'll be as
impartial as I can.
I mean, I I I I you know, as mygiants beat him twice in the
Super Bowl, I could I couldspeak comfortably on his own.
But I do consider him the GOAT.
He absolutely is.
I think you're crazy if youdon't think that he is.
So there's this issue wherehe's a minority owner in the Los
Angeles Raiders, and he's ofcourse also the lead analyst for
(28:12):
Fox Sports and Sunday footballgames.
They treaded lightly on thislast year, last season, and he
wasn't allowed to be in personat any facilities of other teams
for pre-production meetings andthings of that nature.
They've some reason sort ofrolled that back a little bit
now and said we could be thereremotely by Zoom or whatever.
So here's what happened.
Monday night, the Raiders areplaying and he's there in the
(28:33):
coach's box with a coach'sheadset on.
Now, everyone knows he's aminority owner with the Raiders.
So optics are terrible at aminimum, right?
But the thing is, okay, the theNFL statement is what really
sort of made me laugh of howthey dealt with this.
They said there are no policiesthat prohibit an owner from
sitting in a coach's booth orwearing a headset during a game.
(28:55):
Well, he's more than just anowner, he is the lead analyst
for Fox Sports.
And as fact would have it, theRaiders are gonna be playing the
Chiefs, whose game he calledthe day before and presumably
would have had access that noteveryone gets because he gets to
question them and talk to them.
And listen, if you listen toGMs and team owners, some
(29:17):
anonymously, some out front,it's sort of split, you know,
where they say it's not a bigdeal.
We we're not gonna give him thekeys to the kingdom.
If that's just a game of we'renot gonna tell him anything,
then that doesn't help hisbroadcasting credentials.
But the problem with all thisis that it feeds into the
conspiracy theory that TomBrady's on like this lofty level
and enjoys this rarefied airthat no one else gets, and that
(29:39):
these are Tom Brady rules,because I'm pretty sure if it
was anybody else, this justwouldn't be happening.
So look, he could gleaninformation from talking to
these other teams and pass on toraise, and he's an uber
competitive guy.
It's a big part of what madehim so great.
How are we just trusting thathe's gonna resist the urge to
pass something along that heheard?
It's a real problem.
And as long as people keepcomplaining.
Complaining about it.
(30:00):
I'm not quite sure how the NFLis going to deal with it.
I don't think they've dealtwith it well so far.
Even the CEO of Fox Sports waskind of we're not talking about
that at a conference here in NewYork earlier this week.
They got a lot of figuring outto do.
Thom Weidlich (30:12):
I said yesterday at the gym, as the non-sports
person, I don't see how thisisn't a conflict.
It sounds crazy.
Molly McPherson (30:19):
Is there anyone comparable to a Tom Brady where
we could compare it like A-Btesting?
There really isn't.
When you think of owners,commentator, big money, big star
players.
Or anyone like a techie.
Jim Rocco (30:31):
I think this is breaking new ground.
I don't know that there's everbeen a situation like this.
It could pop up again.
You could have a LeBron Jameswho's expressed an interest in
being a team owner one day.
Maybe he'll get intobroadcasting as well.
I don't know.
But obviously, if you're theGOAT, that means you're only
around once a generation in asport.
So there's really not manypeople.
There's not much precedence forsomething like this.
That's part of the reason why Ifind it fascinating, because
(30:53):
this is going to pave the wayfor the future, I think, in
similar situations when they doarrive.
Molly McPherson (30:58):
Yeah.
So looking back at all thesecases from Aaron Rogers to Brett
Favre to Tom Brady, what's thecommon thread you see in sports
crises or sports issues thatmake or break a response?
Jim Rocco (31:11):
I think it's a lot of the regular, I'll call it,
crisis rules do apply as far astimeliness and gathering all the
facts.
A lot of times, as we know, thefirst response is usually
bungled.
It's not handled well in a lotof crises.
I think a lot of that stillapplies.
You have to navigate throughsocial media and what the player
might be ready to say orwilling to say as opposed to
(31:32):
what their reps want him to notto morph off into basketball.
I think we're seeing somethingright now with Kawhi Leonard,
who's been accused of acceptingmoney to go around the salary
cap in basketball.
He hasn't said anything.
The Clippers, his team havespoken, the league has spoken.
He hasn't said anything.
And he's not going to have thatluxury in a few weeks when
training camp and media daystart up again for the NBA.
But I don't know.
(31:53):
For me, I kind of look at itand say, if I'm not guilty, I'm
screaming it from themountaintops.
And whether it's true or not, Ithink this helps him help
people believe that he might beguilty.
Again, that's the opticsbecause he hasn't said a word
yet.
Molly McPherson (32:07):
Right.
Yeah, that's a really goodpoint.
Tom, do you have any thoughtson that?
Thom Weidlich (32:09):
I think it is very similar to just crises
outside the sports world thatthe main issue is people don't
prepare for it.
It's really like, why should Iput so much energy into
preparing for something thatmight never happen?
So that's the big issue.
Molly McPherson (32:24):
So when you think about preparing, I have a
question for both of you.
Since you both work in publicrelations crisis management,
what advice would you give ifyou had the ear of a new
athlete, someone who's a bigcollege star, it's starting to
grow freshman year, maybethey're coming in.
You sit down with them.
What advice would you givethem?
Thom Weidlich (32:42):
We have this concept called the credibility
bank.
And that just meaning that onething that really helps you with
a crisis is to have a goodreputation in the first place.
It really helps you withstand anegative situation.
That would be one thing tofocus on that.
Jim Rocco (32:57):
Yeah, absolutely.
I would add just keeping youreyes wide open and head on a
swivel, be conscious thateverything you say can be fodder
for the media.
There's always a camera or amic on.
And to just be conscious.
This sounds kind of sillybecause Jim Agathew, I mentioned
earlier a boss has this theoryof like putting out social posts
late at night when you're maybeyou're not thinking clearly.
Just wait till the light of daya lot of times to express
(33:18):
certain thoughts, especially ifthere are things that could be
seen as controversial or thatwould alienate some people.
Maybe best to not send it likeat 10 o'clock or 11 o'clock at
night when you may not bethinking as clear as you were
earlier in the day.
Molly McPherson (33:31):
That's great advice.
Okay, so here's my lastquestion.
So here is someone else, andJim, this will be a good segue
between the Patriots and theGiants, actually.
What advice would you give toBill Belichick?
Jim Rocco (33:44):
Right now?
Wow.
Uh you know, he is there's sofew guys in in sports since
media has been a thing that arelike him.
Maybe a Greg Popovit, but he isso unique in the way that he's
conducted himself over theyears, that sort of animosity
mixed with brilliant coachingand just sort of not really
(34:05):
caring who he's pissed off.
He's maybe purposefully and notpurposefully just cultivated
his image.
What did I tell him now?
Go win, continue to be awinner.
Like what you've committed tothis college thing, this
experiment, I'll call it.
And uh look, the whole stuffwith the girlfriend, that's a
whole nother thing.
There's so many differentangles on that.
But at the end of the day,winning cures a lot.
If he could make North Carolinainto a respectable football
(34:29):
program, and I don't think it'sgonna happen in this one year,
one season, if he wants to keepgoing into his mid to late 70s
and coach him to a nationalchampionship, well, God bless
him.
Molly McPherson (34:38):
Tom, do you have anything that?
I know you say you're not not abig football fan, but certainly
you have to be familiar withwhat's happening with the legacy
of Bill Belichick and with hisgirlfriend.
Thom Weidlich (34:47):
Yeah, actually, I only followed it a little bit,
so I'm just gonna agree withwhat Jim said.
Molly McPherson (34:52):
You're gonna agree.
I think it's interestingbecause here you have someone
who has built a legacy, andthat's what you talk about, how
you bank that credibility andyou kind of bank that legacy and
you see someone slowly chipaway at it.
I mean, step by step.
And I also Bill Belchak playsby different media rules that
allowed him to get away withsaying nothing and just kind of
(35:14):
grunting through the pressers,post-game pressers.
But right now, they're askingharder questions.
So when he wants to sell a bookand he's sitting down for a CBS
television interview, you haveto play by media rules and you
have to speak.
And they have the right to askany question, especially about
the news that's being talkedabout right now in the form of
his much younger girlfriend.
(35:34):
All right.
Well, Jim and Tom, thank you somuch for spending the time
speaking with me about thistopic.
And we could go on about thetopic of sports forever, but
your book, Sports, Crisis,Communications, Cases and
Controversy, it's a great bookand it melds both of your
backgrounds togetherbeautifully.
So I encourage anyone who'sinterested in both to check it
(35:55):
out.
Jim Rocco (35:56):
Appreciate you having us.
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