July 31, 2024 • 38 mins
Great teams make great restaurants. On The Pre-Shift, restaurant operators and industry experts dive into building great restaurant teams. We explore their stories, their strategies, and valuable lessons on running restaurant teams. Hosted by D.J. Costantino. Presented by 7shifts.
In the latest episode of the Preshift Podcast, host D.J. Costantino chats with Margaret Pak, chef and co-owner of Thattu in Chicago. Pak shares her inspiring transition from corporate life to culinary arts, detailing her journey from selling spicy ketchup to opening a successful food stall and finally establishing an award-winning restaurant. The episode delves into her passion for Kerala cuisine, her experience with food pop-ups, and her innovative no-tip service model. Pak also discusses the significance of transparent menu pricing, equitable staff wages, and her future plans, including participating in prestigious culinary events and creating retail condiments.
00:00 Welcome to the Preshift Podcast
00:17 Meet Margaret Pak: Chef and Co-Owner of Thattu
01:13 From Corporate to Culinary: Margaret's Journey
02:38 Falling in Love with Kerala Cuisine
03:41 From Prep Cook to Pop-Up Success
07:23 The Birth of Thattu: From Food Stall to Restaurant
10:41 Navigating the Pandemic and Reassessing Plans
11:59 Reopening and Expanding Through Pop-Ups
17:15 Innovative Business Model: No Tips, No Service Charge
27:19 Building a Collaborative and Equitable Team
31:06 Advice for Aspiring Restaurateurs
36:42 What's Next for Thattu?
38:21 Closing Remarks and Thank You
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Hello and welcome to the Pre-Shift Podcast, the show
featuring real restaurant people, real stories and real advice
to build high-performing teams.
I'm DJ Costantino and I'll beyour host Today on the show.
I'm joined by Margaret Pack.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
Hi, my name is Margaret Pack, chef and co-owner
of Thotta in the Avondaleneighborhood of Chicago.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
Margaret Pack is a chef-owner of Thotta, a
restaurant that specializes inthe Avondale neighborhood of
Chicago.
Margaret Pack is a chef ownerof Thatta, a restaurant that
specializes in the SouthwestIndian coastal cuisine of Kerala
that opened in 2023 inChicago's Avondale neighborhood.
After a successful pop-up runas a pop-up, margaret and her
partner, vinod, were James BeardAwards semifinalists in 2020
and made the New York Times listof America's best restaurants
in 2023.
On today's episode, we discusshow Pack fell in love with the
(00:46):
cuisine of Kerala, going fromketchup sales to line cook and
from successful pop-up to anaward-winning brick-and-mortar
restaurant.
We also dive into their servicemodel, transparent menu pricing
and work with Ray's High RoadRestaurants.
Just a reminder if you enjoythe show, please be sure to
follow us and sign up for ournewsletter, food Runner, to get
all the latest episodes and somuch more.
Margaret, thank you for joiningus today.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
Thanks for having me on the podcast.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
Yeah, absolutely.
So, to kick it off, I reallywant to learn a little bit more
about Tata the restaurant andhow you got started.
I know it was kind of a latercareer switch for you and Vinod,
your partner, and I'm justcurious what brought you to the
restaurant industry?
Speaker 2 (01:28):
Sure.
Well, first of all, I joinedthe industry very late in life.
It wasn't until 2015,.
After working in corporate fora good 12 dozen years, 2015, I
got fired for my last desk job.
2015, I got fired from my lastdesk job and that whole time for
(01:50):
the 30 plus years of my lifelife.
Up until that point I've alwaysbeen an expert eater, loved
food, but 2015 was like my bigpause of what am I doing with my
life.
And, by way of a spicy ketchup,I dived into the food industry.
I first started working in foodsales, actually in a self-made
(02:10):
sales job for about two years,and through that job I realized
I love spicy condiments.
But I also absolutely love avery particular cuisine that I
married into.
I did marry my husband nowhusband, business partner in all
(02:30):
things Vinod in gosh 19 yearsago.
So this is 2005.
And from 2005 onwards, I fellhard in love with cuisine from
Kerala.
2005 onwards, I fell hard inlove with cuisine from Kerala.
And that was the first seedTasting all of this beautiful
cuisine.
(02:51):
I mean I could talk about it.
It's coconut rich, rice rich.
It's not the lentils, butter,chicken, naan that I thought I
knew and loved, which I also doSaag paneer also still love that
(03:13):
.
But that was a big year meetingVinod and trying this new
cuisine and that's when thingschanged.
I was like I love this food, tobe honest.
It wasn't until after I workedin food sales and started
meeting more chefs for a coupleof years and just like getting
into the whole supply chain oflike wait, there is no
representation of this cuisineand meeting these great folks
(03:34):
it's like I want to cook and getinto the kitchen.
So truly no kitchen experience.
I started working in food salesand then I took an even bigger
leap and started as a prep cookat a at a Korean Polish
restaurant called Kimski on theSouth side of Chicago.
(03:54):
And that was like my crashcourse of do I want to get into
the industry and literally likeevery week is like I love this,
oh my gosh, this is hard.
And oh my gosh, I'm cooking formore than just a dinner party
and just learning how to cookbanchan all the Korean sides,
(04:18):
learning how to prep on such alarge scale.
It's like this is amazing, justto learn this new skill and
thinking, 10 years from thatpoint, I would open up a
restaurant.
I mean, that's how I dived intothe industry Food sales, first
fell in love with the ketchupSold.
Ketchup sold michelada mix.
So because of those two things,I got to meet Juan Kim, chef
(04:42):
owner of Kimsky, and then afterbeing a prep cook for a couple
of years.
During that time Juan is suchan artist and such an advocate
for just trying new things.
He had gently pushed to makefamily meal.
I was nervous.
I eventually did it.
I made a very homey egg curryand we're Venotas from the
(05:04):
states called Carroll atSouthwest Coastal State and
coconut is everything.
So I brought some coconut milkfrom home, some fresh curry
leaves, but then used everythingelse that was at Kimsky Eggs,
tomatoes, onions, just verybasic coriander like spices that
were available.
And it was because of thisstaff meal of egg curry that
(05:25):
really like, like, startedeverything.
And Juan was like, do you wantto do a pop-up?
I'm like, oh God, no, I'm.
That's scary To the point.
I mean I had not even, like,like, done any line cooking at
that point.
So I went from prep cook fortwo years and learned as much as
I possibly could and whathappened was I did do a couple
(05:46):
of pop-ups in Bridgeport andthen that led to doing a few in
West Sloop, another area ofChicago that's very bustly.
I was very nervous.
So after doing a handful ofpop-ups, doing a handful of
(06:09):
pop-ups that caught theattention of Saigon Sisters,
jeff and Mary.
She was also a wonderful mentor.
She recommended do you want totry out for a food hall?
And I was like, ooh, I don'tknow.
Or she asked do you want toopen up a restaurant?
I was like, oh God, no, that'stoo much.
I'm only a prep cook, I need tolearn like all these ranks, all
these things.
And she goes, oh, it's a foodstall.
I'm like, okay, maybe.
(06:29):
So what ended up happening?
From those five pop-ups, Ipulled together my favorite
dishes, six dishes and the onesthat I liked, and that was my
first tasting.
I did a tasting for a food hall.
I was in the West Loop ofChicago and that was an
(06:50):
immediate fit.
And one dish in particular Imade was called an op-bom, but
it's this rice coconut crepe andit's very concave, it's like
made in a mini wok and I think,like for me that was so near and
dear Cause that's what I havefor breakfast when I go back
home to Kerala, just withvarious curries, but that like
(07:12):
they were perplexed and amazed.
They're like this is amazing,we need to have this in the food
hall.
And at the end of that taste,they're like do you want to join
us?
And I said heck.
Yes, without hesitation.
And then later that day, I wasjust this is 2019.
As a prep cook, I said yes toopen up a food stall, which was
(07:34):
partially insane, but I also itjust felt right.
And the biggest thing is, I justwas so excited and I still am
to date to be able to share thisvery unique Carola cuisine with
Chicago.
So it was a combination of allof those pop-ups and that
tasting and then in 2019 May,between, like, doing my tasting
(07:58):
in Feb, we opened in May of 2019.
So it was a very quickturnaround and we were open for
seven days a week, had a veryshort and sweet menu and by we,
my husband Vinod, did quit hisperfectly well-paying job three
weeks before opening.
I brought him into this and hewould work the stall in the
(08:25):
front and myself, and like withsix others all eight of us we
operated this food stall.
It's in a shared kitchen and,getting back to our small menu,
we had like four curries, twosides, a fried chicken dish and
a masala biscuit cookie.
(08:45):
So it was very short and sweetand we were there seven days a
week.
And that's literally howThought2 was born as a food
stall.
Speaker 1 (08:56):
Yeah, I mean, that's quite the journey, starting from
just the passion of the foodand a staff meal that seemed to
really kick everything off,which is just a really cool
background for a restaurant.
Before we get into the business, I am curious about Kerala in a
little bit.
When was the first time youtraveled there and how often do
you go back there?
Speaker 2 (09:16):
now, the first time I went to Kerala is when Vinod
and I got married in 2005.
That was the first time I meanhis family visiting the country,
eating on a actual banana leaffor our own wedding feast and
feast is called asadia s-a-d-y-aand I was just on overload in
(09:43):
every sense, not just meetingthe whole family and eating it,
but like it was just so hot,tropical and just a lot of fish,
a lot of seafood, not just thevegetarian cuisine, but we would
also eat beef, beef and theseflaky wheat bread frittatas.
So that was my first visit andI was there for a good month
(10:06):
because, again, that was myfirst visit and I got to go
travel throughout Kerala,bangalore, mumbai and our
honeymoon actually was in a treehouse in a very beautiful area
of Kerala, and then since thenwe've gone back at least every
(10:27):
two years, so in our corporatelives we'd go more often and in
total I've been back 13 timesnow in the 19 years.
Speaker 1 (10:36):
Since 2005.
So, yeah, it seems like anaverage every other year pretty
much.
Speaker 2 (10:41):
Yeah.
And so, going back to the foodstall, we were forced to shut
down.
We were open for 10 months Mayof 2019 through March, and so
after that, we slept for abouttwo weeks and then we did trying
to like, figure out, like causewe were on track to open up a
restaurant.
We had an investor approach us,we were thinking about it, but
(11:04):
the whole point is like we wentfrom like getting some amazing
national James Beard recognition, recognition and then just
being forced to shut down tolike oh, we're not going to open
a restaurant, we're not goingto do this.
So, point being, we took a lotof time to reassess and then we
took a few months off and wentto India and just to go home
(11:27):
because we could.
We didn't know what was goingto be next.
That was a big pause and agreat way to spend time at home.
Speaker 1 (11:38):
So during that kind of pause period, you didn't
really know what was coming next.
Right, you had plans to open arestaurant from this pop-up.
Obviously, the world stoppedand people weren't opening
restaurants for a little bit.
So where did the path toopening, I guess, for real this
time?
How did that start?
I believe it was 2021.
You were kind of back in thepop-up space, is that correct?
Speaker 2 (11:58):
Exactly yeah.
So once we came back we're likewe missed this, we need to be
in Chicago.
We started slowly doing pop-upsVery generous restaurant
friends between Kim's Gagin andBridgeport, supercana, and Logan
Square.
Perilla Steakhouse, likemultiple restaurants, reached
out.
Hey, margaret, do you and yourteam want to come and pop up?
(12:20):
And we're like, yes, please.
And so that really started uslike getting moving again in
every regard, testing newrecipes and exploring new
restaurant or areas,neighborhoods, because we knew
eventually we would want toreopen.
We just didn't know where.
So we went as far south asBeverly to Two Mile Cafe, which
(12:45):
is very like south all the wayto Evanston.
So it's like a good like 30plus mile like distance with
just within Chicago Events,catering coffee shops, and
through that we found a spot.
We were referred to a placecalled Guild Row for a dinner
supper club and one of ourpop-ups at a super con we did a
(13:10):
Onam Sadhya takeout to go andit's a huge vegetarian feast
where each person gets like 20different sides.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (13:19):
In the middle of pandemic.
We packaged this along with twobanana leaves.
Speaker 1 (13:24):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (13:25):
Oh my gosh Packaging overload, but it was just like
the best.
It's like a major holiday inKerala, so it's like we really
wanted to do this and this wasin 2021, doing that takeout
pop-up of all these vegetariansides that led to creating a
sadhya zine and that was just apassion project that we did with
(13:48):
a talented food writer her nameMaggie Hennessy.
She had reached out and Ithought cookbook is big, too big
and scary 20 page zine,absolutely my speed, and after
coming back from Carola I waslike I really do need and want
to document all these recipesthat were just like off the cuff
(14:09):
, like I just did it for thepop-up Right Because of one time
.
So we also, after that pop-up,created a zine and through
self-publishing Everyday Sadhya,our first zine.
We self-funded that andpublished that and that was like
literally what kick kickstartedour self funding movement and
(14:33):
keep us busy during pandemic andthrough that we were able to
increase like our range to findour future restaurant space.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
Yeah, that's awesome.
It seems like it was reallyjust like one of those just like
made to be kind of things interms of the experience and, you
know, doing the pop-up and oh,we have this space and you know
it's definitely a cool story.
I'm curious about therestaurant and that transition
from the pop-up.
You know you mentioned thepop-up team.
I imagine was quite small.
(15:04):
What did it look like goingfrom the pop-up to the fully
staffed restaurant?
And I guess also curious, likewhat did you learn in the pop-up
to the fully staffed restaurant?
And I guess also curious, whatdid you learn in the pop-up
experience that you wanted tobring or not bring to the
full-on restaurant?
Speaker 2 (15:19):
Well, first, I mean, our team was everything during
pandemic.
When it was just catering, thatwas just Vinod and I, but when
we started doing events, that'swhen Cindy she was with us in
2019.
She came back and she was withus throughout the whole journey
from 2019 onwards, and thenslowly, other members just
(15:42):
started coming back.
But in terms of the concept,that was kind of the hard part,
because I wanted to do like thishuge laundry list of things for
lunch and dinner.
But the reality was like thisis our first restaurant, we
don't want to do too much.
We want to stick to our ethosof sticking to like having a
(16:04):
short and sweet menu and doingit well.
Well, so what we decided waswell, from our pop-ups, we
absolutely learned a lot of bothjust how to execute dishes, In
other words, like don't fryeverything to order, like do a
lot of pre-frying to then fryupon service, and just testing
(16:27):
out a lot of different dishes ofwhat we enjoyed making more
than others.
The holdup was, though it wasmostly pickup no one's dining in
, so that was the obvious thing.
It's like okay, what holds well.
So I think that was, like, froma menu standpoint, obvious but
important changes that we made,I think, aside from like the
(16:48):
menu updates, but just learninghow to adjust to different
kitchen equipment.
Speaker 1 (16:55):
So I do want to dive into and this is all great, I
mean I love hearing the storiesand you're a great storyteller I
am curious a little bit moreabout the business itself and
the way you guys have your menustructure, prices structured and
staffing.
And you know, I know you guysdo no tips, no service charge,
(17:19):
kind of this all inclusive price.
So if you could just break thatdown a little bit for me, how
you came to those decisions, whyyou wanted to run your
restaurant this way, from beingan employer standpoint.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
Sure.
So, first and foremost, we donot have tips or a service
charge and in fact we have asign that says so, right when
you walk in, and then inparentheses.
But we can't do anything abouttaxes.
And I will say, on many frontsfrom our pop pop-up times, it
(17:54):
was very cringy when we're doingtakeout and when people could
dine in, like ringing them upand then giving them the screen
and being like, oh, you can alsotip and like I didn't like that
and it was an interesting time.
But what I would say is that itbecame evident to us that we
didn't want to do that.
(18:16):
And background my husband andbusiness partner in all things,
vinod.
He was a CPA and also in hislast job was an auditor, so he's
very great with numbers and wehad gone back and forth about
what, if we actually havebuilt-in prices, we don't have
the tips and just factor in toour actual menu price everything
(18:42):
, because that's how they do itin India, that's how in most
places in Europe as well.
We were very fortunate to havebeen able to travel and in some
places it's like overseas it'salmost considered rude to tip.
But that was like some of thebackground thoughts of what we
were thinking and it reallybecame apparent to us that if
(19:07):
we're going to open a place,this is our chance to just like,
start fresh, start it the waythat we want to do it.
We literally put our savingsand a very significant city
grant into the building andcreation of our restaurant.
So we're very fortunate that wedidn't have to worry about
investors.
(19:28):
It was more like if we're goingto do this A, we need to do the
research and be very trulycalculated about that.
So, again with Vinod'sbackground, we did go through
our very short and sweet menu,did all of our cost food cost
and went through that.
And then he built in like whatwould a quote 20% look like on
(19:53):
that?
And at the end of the day, wefigured out our pricing, worked
that out.
And one of the biggest things iswhen people come into Dine, we
do offer that QR code and peoplecan order that and we, for us,
we just want to be fullytransparent to the customer of
like you literally see what youare ordering.
(20:13):
Like there are nothing.
There's nothing hiding.
The only thing hiding is thetax amount and maybe it's
different because you're buyingalcohol.
That's it.
So there's that part part justin terms of having fair pay
between our entire team, both inthe kitchen and in the front.
(20:34):
We do something different wherewe have a base rate plus a
revenue share.
So because and that's becausewe're not taking tips, and so
every two weeks Vinod does allthese calculations and he has
like extra checks of what is ouractual revenue for two weeks
(20:55):
and then splits that based onhours worked with the entire
team.
It does require some extra workand he has all of his
worksheets and checks too,because you know things and
that's revenue, both food,alcohol, events, catering, like
(21:16):
off-sites where possible, likewhere it makes sense, so that
it's truly it's for everybody.
So that's like how the paystructure is and that was just
really important for us to beequitable.
And I'm going to say like, atfirst, for hiring in the front,
(21:38):
that was a little like differentfor some of our servers to
understand.
It's like oh, so what's the tip?
Like what's the pay at the endof the day?
But the way we, and also whatwas also important to us, is
that their wage would not changeweek to week, so like if we're
(21:59):
having a bad week or a reallygood week, like we want to
guarantee a steady pay and inthe front, I mean we've been
very fortunate that our turnoverhas been very low, like one
went back to school and another,like went to a different
restaurant.
I mean it's, I mean thatnaturally happens.
But um, we've been now open for15 months, which is wild to say
(22:22):
, and I will add that before wewere opened, um, as part of that
research not just all thecalculations, but we did reach
out to raise high roads and onefair wage.
We did like, after some researchand learning from Jason Hamill,
lula Cafe, zoe, shore, splitRail just researching the
(22:46):
restaurants where we recognizedand liked what they were doing.
That led us to thoseorganizations where they worked
with and so that was reallyhelpful just to truly talk to
other restaurateurs, get theirperspective and honey, butter,
fried chicken as well, shout outto all of them.
I mean they were just so openliterally with their like how
they do their books and like howthey organize.
(23:08):
And I think, just from anoverall standpoint from our
small business, and I think justfrom an overall standpoint from
our small business, it's reallyimportant that we have an open
book policy.
So, as Vinod does thefinancials every quarter, like
we literally open it up, he doesthe analysis, shares it with
the entire team.
Some of it's a littleinformation overload, but again,
(23:32):
we want to literally know whatour whole team to know.
Where is this money coming from?
What are we selling?
Yes, we're selling all thesethings, but where is that going?
Speaker 1 (23:43):
Does the revenue split?
Is that equal or is itdependent on role front of house
and back of house?
How does that work?
Speaker 2 (23:49):
out A great question because traditionally, or
historically I should say, thefront would get more.
But that's not us.
We truly want to make it asequal as possible.
So I will say kitchen hours aremuch higher than what's in the
front.
So as a result, the bases arerespectfully different and this
(24:14):
revenue share, it goes back tothe fact that we want it to be a
consistent wage and we alsoprovide incremental, like we
recognize, as people progress,we give that raise on their base
pay, but the revenue share,that's where it's split, truly
(24:36):
based on the number of hours.
Speaker 1 (24:37):
Okay, so it's a flat percent based on hours and then
any sort of.
You know someone goes fromserver to a shift leader or
captain.
However you do it, their basewage will increase, or with
merit or seniority or thingslike that.
Speaker 2 (24:52):
Exactly, but it's truly like hours based.
Speaker 1 (24:54):
Hours based.
Awesome.
I'm curious, do?
Speaker 2 (24:55):
people still try hours based.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
Hours based awesome.
I'm curious.
Do people still try and tipdiners?
I'm curious that the diners umthe diner like how they respond
to it.
Do you get pushback?
Do people still say, like Iwant to leave a tip?
How, how has it gone over withthe guests?
Speaker 2 (25:09):
so I will say, going into it, I was nervous.
Finota was like you know, ofcourse we're going to be nervous
people.
People will figure it out.
And as a percentage, ourcustomers have been amazing.
I would say 95%.
They're like what do you mean?
You don't take tips?
And when we say it's alreadybaked, and they're like that's
(25:29):
amazing.
But we still and they do say,but we still want to leave a tip
we're like you don't need tojust come back again, bring a
friend.
At the beginning people justdid not listen.
They would still put cash down.
But I will say that customers,we're attracting the customers
that we want, Like they'll keepcoming back.
(25:50):
What we do with the cash, thatthe people that don't listen to
us.
We do keep that.
And we took a poll with ourteam and asked, like how do you
want to spend this?
Do you want caffeine?
Do you want food?
I mean, we do buy a lot ofcaffeine but we do save that for
, like, our team outings.
Speaker 1 (26:09):
I'm curious too.
You mentioned I think it was inan interview, an article in
another podcast that you noticedthere was like a tension
between people I think this wasin the food hall, the tipping
screen and the person on theother side of the counter and on
the tablet.
Is that something that kind offactored in as well to your
decision?
Through those experiences?
Speaker 2 (26:29):
Absolutely, both from the food hall and through our
pop-up time as well, of justlike that awkward pause and, in
addition, like some people, justwouldn't tip.
Speaker 1 (26:43):
Right.
Speaker 2 (26:43):
And I guess that's the point.
We don't expect anybody to tipnow, right.
Which is good, yeah, we justdon't want there to be that
extra pressure.
Speaker 1 (26:54):
Yeah, absolutely the guest impact.
Clearly the staff enjoys thisstructure.
You mentioned the turnoverbeing low, but how have you seen
it in your experience with therestaurants in general?
How have you seen the impact ofthis wage model on
relationships or the way peopleare at work or what's the kind
(27:15):
of impact it's had on the teamand their everyday work?
Speaker 2 (27:20):
I float to the front and get to work with the servers
and see how that operates.
And one thing that's veryapparent is that no one quote
owns a table or a section.
So that's the first and likeobvious thing.
Like everybody helps each otherand if, like someone needs to
(27:43):
like something happens, or likesomebody needs to go mop
something, it's like okay,myself or Edwin or somebody will
go swoop in and just like helpthat table.
So from that customer servicestandpoint it's I do feel like
it's more of a cohesive teameffort in terms of touching all
the tables, talking to peopletoo.
(28:05):
Also, if one of our bartenderswasn't feeling well, we do a lot
of cross-training so that weare able to have somebody else
go and bartend right away, andthen a server they can help each
other out.
So I mean that goes hand inhand with like cross-training.
But also everybody's on thesame team.
(28:27):
They want to like take care ofthe customers and like make sure
, like it's like they can't eventell like something's changed.
And then, similarly, I wouldsay in the kitchen um, this it's
, it's a all hands on deck.
We always we tend to have aboutfour in the kitchen plus our
(28:48):
dishwasher and a prep, cook, andit's a lot of bodies, and I
think as we tweak and makemodifications to our menu, we do
get insight from all of ourteam members, and I think it's
one of those things where wewant to generate different ideas
(29:08):
.
And it's not just all me, it'snot just our chef de cuisine,
danny, it's truly everybody'scontributing me, satya, or Chef
de Cuisine Danny, it's trulyeverybody's contributing.
And by having these differentspecials, it allows us to all
collectively like, come togetherand create different, truly
more revenue opportunities foreverybody.
(29:32):
We just had a soft-shell crab.
It was in season for everybody.
We just had a soft shell crab,it was in season.
So that was a really fun dishthat Danny created and that went
back to like one of the veryfirst dishes that Vinod had made
like 21 years ago, which isreally pretty amazing.
So, sorry, sorry, I'm gettingback to the food, but I guess to
the point, to the point thathaving it more of a
(29:55):
collaborative effort and anopportunity for different menu
items come up as well.
Speaker 1 (30:05):
Awesome.
So it just seems like what itreally does is you know one of
the.
Or it provides more room forcreativity.
You know you're not like in the.
You know working hard and kindof.
You know have room for, forthinking outside of the box.
Or you know you're justsurviving and getting through
the day, but it just allows formore of that time for people to
(30:27):
focus on their own developmentor, like you said, creating
specials and just being creativeand pushing the envelope,
rather than trying to just getthrough and get through the day
to day.
Speaker 2 (30:39):
Yeah, and I mean, just like I mentioned for the
front, cross trainings,everything like in the kitchen,
like everyone's constantlylearning all the different
stations and can jump in at anytime.
That's tremendous and it'severything.
Speaker 1 (30:52):
Absolutely yeah, no, I mean it's.
It's it allows people to helpout and I think the it seems
like the revenue sharing and thebase wage structure allows
people to do that, because theydon't have to worry about oh,
I'm losing my table if I go helpdo something else.
Speaker 2 (31:04):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (31:06):
I do kind of want to just wrap things up with some of
your recommendations for other.
You know you mentioned talkingto other restaurant owners and
people doing similar things inChicago and how that helped, and
that's kind of what I'm tryingto do with this show right is be
able to have thoseconversations available to
anyone who wants to and iscurious about running
(31:29):
restaurants in the way thatyou're doing it or looking to
try and do it in a way that'sdifferent from the norm or at
least the historical norm.
So what advice would you giveto a restaurant who's looking to
explore these alternative wageoptions not the traditional
tipped minimum, or any adviceyou would give to someone who is
apprehensive or thinking ofmaking that change for their
(31:51):
business or starting a newbusiness with that?
Speaker 2 (31:53):
in place.
First, I mean really identifywhat your customer base too.
I mean like, of course, youknow your concept, you know what
you're creating, but thinkabout who is your customer and
then, at the end of the day,what customer do you want to
(32:14):
attract?
That's the first part.
But then for us I think we,just for nodes, background,
knowing and wanting to do allthe calculations we're like we
can only do so much theorganizations one fair wage
raise high roads.
Those were the first two thatwe found and, like we, we still
(32:34):
go back and I will say that wasbecause we started researching
restaurants locally, that wereally respect and appreciate
what they're doing.
And, at the end of the day,we're all doing something
different, but we all went tothe same resources and I think,
at the core of it, just doingwhat feels right for your
(32:56):
business model, for yourcustomers, I think that's the
biggest thing.
And I will say one thing Ididn't touch upon too much was
using the QR code.
You know we were nervous aboutthat and our customer base, like
they're into it.
And so I think again, it's like, think about, like your, your
(33:19):
audience and also just try it.
If it doesn't work, pivot.
And I'm going to say, like wethought at the beginning we were
going to be a counter service.
A week into it we're like Nope,we're not, we need to take
reservations.
And then we started takingreservations and then we just
kept going.
So those are the two thingslike reach out, look for
(33:42):
organizations and restaurants,or reach out to us, and if
something doesn't work, thenchange it and keep going.
Speaker 1 (33:52):
Were there any big changes that you made quickly?
Speaker 2 (34:05):
or even recently, that just things that weren't
working out and you needed tomake an adjustment.
And then, like it'll be firstcome, first serve, we had an
overwhelming response and wewere open for just for lunch and
we just didn't feel comfortable.
Nor did we.
Just we didn't want customersto have to wait for so long and
(34:26):
then feel that pressure and wedidn't want to have the churn
and burn either.
And so after like a week and ahalf, we realized and we were
only open for lunch we're like,okay, we need to like pace this
out.
So we went to the first, weshopped around with the
different reservation platformsand immediately got onto one and
we've been with them sinceOpenTable and I'm going to say
(34:49):
that that really helped pace outthe seat of the customers.
And I think, to answer yourquestion, like we only opened
for lunch when we first opened.
So we opened at the end ofApril and only after a month of
being comfortable with lunch,then we're like, okay, we got
(35:10):
this.
And then we opened up fordinner and then, once we had a
dinner, that's when we realizedagain we need to make some
adjustments.
So we would make adjustments toour dinner menu.
So it was very much anincremental approach for us and
then once we tweaked our dinnermenu after that, we felt it was
very smooth sailing.
(35:31):
Just thinking back of any othermajor changes, since I would
say more just menu updates andthen our talking points, like as
we got to know our customersmore, as we had more repeat
customers, I think just changingsome of our messaging.
(35:51):
But I mean, I think I wouldjust like just learning from our
customers and just seeing, likewhat specials do better than
others and, for example, so Ithink, just constantly getting
that feedback loop from them aswell.
Speaker 1 (36:04):
Very cool, yeah.
So just focusing on that, youknow that, that feedback loop
and making sure that everybodyis comfortable with it and
everything's working out, and Iguess it just comes down to
talking to your staff, right?
Speaker 2 (36:17):
Exactly yes.
So I think that's and bless ourstaff, like we're so grateful
and we're so like we have anamazing team all around and and
our 15 months, like none of itwould be possible without all of
them.
It's, I'm very grateful and I'mso proud of our team.
(36:38):
We've accomplished a lot injust a short period of time.
Speaker 1 (36:41):
Absolutely yeah.
So I'm just curious, as we, aswe start to kind of wrap up,
what's next for you guys?
What are you looking forward tothis year, or any exciting
things that you're working on orthings you want to share that
you're up to with our audience?
Speaker 2 (36:57):
Sure, actually, as we speak, in just a few weeks I
get to travel to New York torepresent Chicago for James
Beard 20.
And there are 20 chefs comingtogether in New York for this
new cohort, and so what it'sabout this will be in a few
(37:20):
weeks, july 24th, and we will bepresenting a bite, so that will
be amazing.
And being able to do moreevents.
There's something called Tasteof Nations Share Our Strength,
which supports food insecurity.
Doing more events like that,it's like we got past our year.
(37:44):
One try to do more work withthe community.
It's like this is our time thatwe want to start doing more of
that.
Then the second part buildingout some of our condiments.
So I started in the industrymaking or selling other people's
ketchup.
I still love ketchup and I nowmake a spicy beet ketchup for
(38:06):
our lunch menu.
So looking into bottling andselling that in our retail space
.
So hot sauce and beet ketchupin our retail space in our
retail space.
So hot sauce and beet ketchupin our retail space in our
restaurant area.
Speaker 1 (38:21):
Thank you so much for joining us on the show today.
Speaker 2 (38:23):
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (38:25):
Thanks again for checking out this episode of the
Pre-Shift.
If you enjoyed it, please leaveus a review and rating and
share it with one of yourfriends to help the show grow.
Also, be sure to subscribe toour Food Runner newsletter.
Once a month you get a roundupof resources, practical tips and
industry leader insights tolearn more quickly.
Sign up at 7shiftscom.
(38:46):
Slash food runner.
Check the link in thedescription.
Until next time.
Hello and welcome to the Pre-Shift Podcast, the show
featuring real restaurant people, real stories and real advice
to build high-performing teams.
I'm DJ Costantino and I'll beyour host Today on the show.
I'm joined by Margaret Pack.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
Hi, my name is Margaret Pack, chef and co-owner
of Thotta in the Avondaleneighborhood of Chicago.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
Margaret Pack is a chef-owner of Thotta, a
restaurant that specializes inthe Avondale neighborhood of
Chicago.
Margaret Pack is a chef ownerof Thatta, a restaurant that
specializes in the SouthwestIndian coastal cuisine of Kerala
that opened in 2023 inChicago's Avondale neighborhood.
After a successful pop-up runas a pop-up, margaret and her
partner, vinod, were James BeardAwards semifinalists in 2020
and made the New York Times listof America's best restaurants
in 2023.
On today's episode, we discusshow Pack fell in love with the
(00:46):
cuisine of Kerala, going fromketchup sales to line cook and
from successful pop-up to anaward-winning brick-and-mortar
restaurant.
We also dive into their servicemodel, transparent menu pricing
and work with Ray's High RoadRestaurants.
Just a reminder if you enjoythe show, please be sure to
follow us and sign up for ournewsletter, food Runner, to get
all the latest episodes and somuch more.
Margaret, thank you for joiningus today.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
Thanks for having me on the podcast.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
Yeah, absolutely.
So, to kick it off, I reallywant to learn a little bit more
about Tata the restaurant andhow you got started.
I know it was kind of a latercareer switch for you and Vinod,
your partner, and I'm justcurious what brought you to the
restaurant industry?
Speaker 2 (01:28):
Sure.
Well, first of all, I joinedthe industry very late in life.
It wasn't until 2015,.
After working in corporate fora good 12 dozen years, 2015, I
got fired for my last desk job.
2015, I got fired from my lastdesk job and that whole time for
(01:50):
the 30 plus years of my lifelife.
Up until that point I've alwaysbeen an expert eater, loved
food, but 2015 was like my bigpause of what am I doing with my
life.
And, by way of a spicy ketchup,I dived into the food industry.
I first started working in foodsales, actually in a self-made
(02:10):
sales job for about two years,and through that job I realized
I love spicy condiments.
But I also absolutely love avery particular cuisine that I
married into.
I did marry my husband nowhusband, business partner in all
(02:30):
things Vinod in gosh 19 yearsago.
So this is 2005.
And from 2005 onwards, I fellhard in love with cuisine from
Kerala.
2005 onwards, I fell hard inlove with cuisine from Kerala.
And that was the first seedTasting all of this beautiful
cuisine.
(02:51):
I mean I could talk about it.
It's coconut rich, rice rich.
It's not the lentils, butter,chicken, naan that I thought I
knew and loved, which I also doSaag paneer also still love that
(03:13):
.
But that was a big year meetingVinod and trying this new
cuisine and that's when thingschanged.
I was like I love this food, tobe honest.
It wasn't until after I workedin food sales and started
meeting more chefs for a coupleof years and just like getting
into the whole supply chain oflike wait, there is no
representation of this cuisineand meeting these great folks
(03:34):
it's like I want to cook and getinto the kitchen.
So truly no kitchen experience.
I started working in food salesand then I took an even bigger
leap and started as a prep cookat a at a Korean Polish
restaurant called Kimski on theSouth side of Chicago.
(03:54):
And that was like my crashcourse of do I want to get into
the industry and literally likeevery week is like I love this,
oh my gosh, this is hard.
And oh my gosh, I'm cooking formore than just a dinner party
and just learning how to cookbanchan all the Korean sides,
(04:18):
learning how to prep on such alarge scale.
It's like this is amazing, justto learn this new skill and
thinking, 10 years from thatpoint, I would open up a
restaurant.
I mean, that's how I dived intothe industry Food sales, first
fell in love with the ketchupSold.
Ketchup sold michelada mix.
So because of those two things,I got to meet Juan Kim, chef
(04:42):
owner of Kimsky, and then afterbeing a prep cook for a couple
of years.
During that time Juan is suchan artist and such an advocate
for just trying new things.
He had gently pushed to makefamily meal.
I was nervous.
I eventually did it.
I made a very homey egg curryand we're Venotas from the
(05:04):
states called Carroll atSouthwest Coastal State and
coconut is everything.
So I brought some coconut milkfrom home, some fresh curry
leaves, but then used everythingelse that was at Kimsky Eggs,
tomatoes, onions, just verybasic coriander like spices that
were available.
And it was because of thisstaff meal of egg curry that
(05:25):
really like, like, startedeverything.
And Juan was like, do you wantto do a pop-up?
I'm like, oh God, no, I'm.
That's scary To the point.
I mean I had not even, like,like, done any line cooking at
that point.
So I went from prep cook fortwo years and learned as much as
I possibly could and whathappened was I did do a couple
(05:46):
of pop-ups in Bridgeport andthen that led to doing a few in
West Sloop, another area ofChicago that's very bustly.
I was very nervous.
So after doing a handful ofpop-ups, doing a handful of
(06:09):
pop-ups that caught theattention of Saigon Sisters,
jeff and Mary.
She was also a wonderful mentor.
She recommended do you want totry out for a food hall?
And I was like, ooh, I don'tknow.
Or she asked do you want toopen up a restaurant?
I was like, oh God, no, that'stoo much.
I'm only a prep cook, I need tolearn like all these ranks, all
these things.
And she goes, oh, it's a foodstall.
I'm like, okay, maybe.
(06:29):
So what ended up happening?
From those five pop-ups, Ipulled together my favorite
dishes, six dishes and the onesthat I liked, and that was my
first tasting.
I did a tasting for a food hall.
I was in the West Loop ofChicago and that was an
(06:50):
immediate fit.
And one dish in particular Imade was called an op-bom, but
it's this rice coconut crepe andit's very concave, it's like
made in a mini wok and I think,like for me that was so near and
dear Cause that's what I havefor breakfast when I go back
home to Kerala, just withvarious curries, but that like
(07:12):
they were perplexed and amazed.
They're like this is amazing,we need to have this in the food
hall.
And at the end of that taste,they're like do you want to join
us?
And I said heck.
Yes, without hesitation.
And then later that day, I wasjust this is 2019.
As a prep cook, I said yes toopen up a food stall, which was
(07:34):
partially insane, but I also itjust felt right.
And the biggest thing is, I justwas so excited and I still am
to date to be able to share thisvery unique Carola cuisine with
Chicago.
So it was a combination of allof those pop-ups and that
tasting and then in 2019 May,between, like, doing my tasting
(07:58):
in Feb, we opened in May of 2019.
So it was a very quickturnaround and we were open for
seven days a week, had a veryshort and sweet menu and by we,
my husband Vinod, did quit hisperfectly well-paying job three
weeks before opening.
I brought him into this and hewould work the stall in the
(08:25):
front and myself, and like withsix others all eight of us we
operated this food stall.
It's in a shared kitchen and,getting back to our small menu,
we had like four curries, twosides, a fried chicken dish and
a masala biscuit cookie.
(08:45):
So it was very short and sweetand we were there seven days a
week.
And that's literally howThought2 was born as a food
stall.
Speaker 1 (08:56):
Yeah, I mean, that's quite the journey, starting from
just the passion of the foodand a staff meal that seemed to
really kick everything off,which is just a really cool
background for a restaurant.
Before we get into the business, I am curious about Kerala in a
little bit.
When was the first time youtraveled there and how often do
you go back there?
Speaker 2 (09:16):
now, the first time I went to Kerala is when Vinod
and I got married in 2005.
That was the first time I meanhis family visiting the country,
eating on a actual banana leaffor our own wedding feast and
feast is called asadia s-a-d-y-aand I was just on overload in
(09:43):
every sense, not just meetingthe whole family and eating it,
but like it was just so hot,tropical and just a lot of fish,
a lot of seafood, not just thevegetarian cuisine, but we would
also eat beef, beef and theseflaky wheat bread frittatas.
So that was my first visit andI was there for a good month
(10:06):
because, again, that was myfirst visit and I got to go
travel throughout Kerala,bangalore, mumbai and our
honeymoon actually was in a treehouse in a very beautiful area
of Kerala, and then since thenwe've gone back at least every
(10:27):
two years, so in our corporatelives we'd go more often and in
total I've been back 13 timesnow in the 19 years.
Speaker 1 (10:36):
Since 2005.
So, yeah, it seems like anaverage every other year pretty
much.
Speaker 2 (10:41):
Yeah.
And so, going back to the foodstall, we were forced to shut
down.
We were open for 10 months Mayof 2019 through March, and so
after that, we slept for abouttwo weeks and then we did trying
to like, figure out, like causewe were on track to open up a
restaurant.
We had an investor approach us,we were thinking about it, but
(11:04):
the whole point is like we wentfrom like getting some amazing
national James Beard recognition, recognition and then just
being forced to shut down tolike oh, we're not going to open
a restaurant, we're not goingto do this.
So, point being, we took a lotof time to reassess and then we
took a few months off and wentto India and just to go home
(11:27):
because we could.
We didn't know what was goingto be next.
That was a big pause and agreat way to spend time at home.
Speaker 1 (11:38):
So during that kind of pause period, you didn't
really know what was coming next.
Right, you had plans to open arestaurant from this pop-up.
Obviously, the world stoppedand people weren't opening
restaurants for a little bit.
So where did the path toopening, I guess, for real this
time?
How did that start?
I believe it was 2021.
You were kind of back in thepop-up space, is that correct?
Speaker 2 (11:58):
Exactly yeah.
So once we came back we're likewe missed this, we need to be
in Chicago.
We started slowly doing pop-upsVery generous restaurant
friends between Kim's Gagin andBridgeport, supercana, and Logan
Square.
Perilla Steakhouse, likemultiple restaurants, reached
out.
Hey, margaret, do you and yourteam want to come and pop up?
(12:20):
And we're like, yes, please.
And so that really started uslike getting moving again in
every regard, testing newrecipes and exploring new
restaurant or areas,neighborhoods, because we knew
eventually we would want toreopen.
We just didn't know where.
So we went as far south asBeverly to Two Mile Cafe, which
(12:45):
is very like south all the wayto Evanston.
So it's like a good like 30plus mile like distance with
just within Chicago Events,catering coffee shops, and
through that we found a spot.
We were referred to a placecalled Guild Row for a dinner
supper club and one of ourpop-ups at a super con we did a
(13:10):
Onam Sadhya takeout to go andit's a huge vegetarian feast
where each person gets like 20different sides.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (13:19):
In the middle of pandemic.
We packaged this along with twobanana leaves.
Speaker 1 (13:24):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (13:25):
Oh my gosh Packaging overload, but it was just like
the best.
It's like a major holiday inKerala, so it's like we really
wanted to do this and this wasin 2021, doing that takeout
pop-up of all these vegetariansides that led to creating a
sadhya zine and that was just apassion project that we did with
(13:48):
a talented food writer her nameMaggie Hennessy.
She had reached out and Ithought cookbook is big, too big
and scary 20 page zine,absolutely my speed, and after
coming back from Carola I waslike I really do need and want
to document all these recipesthat were just like off the cuff
(14:09):
, like I just did it for thepop-up Right Because of one time
.
So we also, after that pop-up,created a zine and through
self-publishing Everyday Sadhya,our first zine.
We self-funded that andpublished that and that was like
literally what kick kickstartedour self funding movement and
(14:33):
keep us busy during pandemic andthrough that we were able to
increase like our range to findour future restaurant space.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
Yeah, that's awesome.
It seems like it was reallyjust like one of those just like
made to be kind of things interms of the experience and, you
know, doing the pop-up and oh,we have this space and you know
it's definitely a cool story.
I'm curious about therestaurant and that transition
from the pop-up.
You know you mentioned thepop-up team.
I imagine was quite small.
(15:04):
What did it look like goingfrom the pop-up to the fully
staffed restaurant?
And I guess also curious, likewhat did you learn in the pop-up
to the fully staffed restaurant?
And I guess also curious, whatdid you learn in the pop-up
experience that you wanted tobring or not bring to the
full-on restaurant?
Speaker 2 (15:19):
Well, first, I mean, our team was everything during
pandemic.
When it was just catering, thatwas just Vinod and I, but when
we started doing events, that'swhen Cindy she was with us in
2019.
She came back and she was withus throughout the whole journey
from 2019 onwards, and thenslowly, other members just
(15:42):
started coming back.
But in terms of the concept,that was kind of the hard part,
because I wanted to do like thishuge laundry list of things for
lunch and dinner.
But the reality was like thisis our first restaurant, we
don't want to do too much.
We want to stick to our ethosof sticking to like having a
(16:04):
short and sweet menu and doingit well.
Well, so what we decided waswell, from our pop-ups, we
absolutely learned a lot of bothjust how to execute dishes, In
other words, like don't fryeverything to order, like do a
lot of pre-frying to then fryupon service, and just testing
(16:27):
out a lot of different dishes ofwhat we enjoyed making more
than others.
The holdup was, though it wasmostly pickup no one's dining in
, so that was the obvious thing.
It's like okay, what holds well.
So I think that was, like, froma menu standpoint, obvious but
important changes that we made,I think, aside from like the
(16:48):
menu updates, but just learninghow to adjust to different
kitchen equipment.
Speaker 1 (16:55):
So I do want to dive into and this is all great, I
mean I love hearing the storiesand you're a great storyteller I
am curious a little bit moreabout the business itself and
the way you guys have your menustructure, prices structured and
staffing.
And you know, I know you guysdo no tips, no service charge,
(17:19):
kind of this all inclusive price.
So if you could just break thatdown a little bit for me, how
you came to those decisions, whyyou wanted to run your
restaurant this way, from beingan employer standpoint.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
Sure.
So, first and foremost, we donot have tips or a service
charge and in fact we have asign that says so, right when
you walk in, and then inparentheses.
But we can't do anything abouttaxes.
And I will say, on many frontsfrom our pop pop-up times, it
(17:54):
was very cringy when we're doingtakeout and when people could
dine in, like ringing them upand then giving them the screen
and being like, oh, you can alsotip and like I didn't like that
and it was an interesting time.
But what I would say is that itbecame evident to us that we
didn't want to do that.
(18:16):
And background my husband andbusiness partner in all things,
vinod.
He was a CPA and also in hislast job was an auditor, so he's
very great with numbers and wehad gone back and forth about
what, if we actually havebuilt-in prices, we don't have
the tips and just factor in toour actual menu price everything
(18:42):
, because that's how they do itin India, that's how in most
places in Europe as well.
We were very fortunate to havebeen able to travel and in some
places it's like overseas it'salmost considered rude to tip.
But that was like some of thebackground thoughts of what we
were thinking and it reallybecame apparent to us that if
(19:07):
we're going to open a place,this is our chance to just like,
start fresh, start it the waythat we want to do it.
We literally put our savingsand a very significant city
grant into the building andcreation of our restaurant.
So we're very fortunate that wedidn't have to worry about
investors.
(19:28):
It was more like if we're goingto do this A, we need to do the
research and be very trulycalculated about that.
So, again with Vinod'sbackground, we did go through
our very short and sweet menu,did all of our cost food cost
and went through that.
And then he built in like whatwould a quote 20% look like on
(19:53):
that?
And at the end of the day, wefigured out our pricing, worked
that out.
And one of the biggest things iswhen people come into Dine, we
do offer that QR code and peoplecan order that and we, for us,
we just want to be fullytransparent to the customer of
like you literally see what youare ordering.
(20:13):
Like there are nothing.
There's nothing hiding.
The only thing hiding is thetax amount and maybe it's
different because you're buyingalcohol.
That's it.
So there's that part part justin terms of having fair pay
between our entire team, both inthe kitchen and in the front.
(20:34):
We do something different wherewe have a base rate plus a
revenue share.
So because and that's becausewe're not taking tips, and so
every two weeks Vinod does allthese calculations and he has
like extra checks of what is ouractual revenue for two weeks
(20:55):
and then splits that based onhours worked with the entire
team.
It does require some extra workand he has all of his
worksheets and checks too,because you know things and
that's revenue, both food,alcohol, events, catering, like
(21:16):
off-sites where possible, likewhere it makes sense, so that
it's truly it's for everybody.
So that's like how the paystructure is and that was just
really important for us to beequitable.
And I'm going to say like, atfirst, for hiring in the front,
(21:38):
that was a little like differentfor some of our servers to
understand.
It's like oh, so what's the tip?
Like what's the pay at the endof the day?
But the way we, and also whatwas also important to us, is
that their wage would not changeweek to week, so like if we're
(21:59):
having a bad week or a reallygood week, like we want to
guarantee a steady pay and inthe front, I mean we've been
very fortunate that our turnoverhas been very low, like one
went back to school and another,like went to a different
restaurant.
I mean it's, I mean thatnaturally happens.
But um, we've been now open for15 months, which is wild to say
(22:22):
, and I will add that before wewere opened, um, as part of that
research not just all thecalculations, but we did reach
out to raise high roads and onefair wage.
We did like, after some researchand learning from Jason Hamill,
lula Cafe, zoe, shore, splitRail just researching the
(22:46):
restaurants where we recognizedand liked what they were doing.
That led us to thoseorganizations where they worked
with and so that was reallyhelpful just to truly talk to
other restaurateurs, get theirperspective and honey, butter,
fried chicken as well, shout outto all of them.
I mean they were just so openliterally with their like how
they do their books and like howthey organize.
(23:08):
And I think, just from anoverall standpoint from our
small business, and I think justfrom an overall standpoint from
our small business, it's reallyimportant that we have an open
book policy.
So, as Vinod does thefinancials every quarter, like
we literally open it up, he doesthe analysis, shares it with
the entire team.
Some of it's a littleinformation overload, but again,
(23:32):
we want to literally know whatour whole team to know.
Where is this money coming from?
What are we selling?
Yes, we're selling all thesethings, but where is that going?
Speaker 1 (23:43):
Does the revenue split?
Is that equal or is itdependent on role front of house
and back of house?
How does that work?
Speaker 2 (23:49):
out A great question because traditionally, or
historically I should say, thefront would get more.
But that's not us.
We truly want to make it asequal as possible.
So I will say kitchen hours aremuch higher than what's in the
front.
So as a result, the bases arerespectfully different and this
(24:14):
revenue share, it goes back tothe fact that we want it to be a
consistent wage and we alsoprovide incremental, like we
recognize, as people progress,we give that raise on their base
pay, but the revenue share,that's where it's split, truly
(24:36):
based on the number of hours.
Speaker 1 (24:37):
Okay, so it's a flat percent based on hours and then
any sort of.
You know someone goes fromserver to a shift leader or
captain.
However you do it, their basewage will increase, or with
merit or seniority or thingslike that.
Speaker 2 (24:52):
Exactly, but it's truly like hours based.
Speaker 1 (24:54):
Hours based.
Awesome.
I'm curious, do?
Speaker 2 (24:55):
people still try hours based.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
Hours based awesome.
I'm curious.
Do people still try and tipdiners?
I'm curious that the diners umthe diner like how they respond
to it.
Do you get pushback?
Do people still say, like Iwant to leave a tip?
How, how has it gone over withthe guests?
Speaker 2 (25:09):
so I will say, going into it, I was nervous.
Finota was like you know, ofcourse we're going to be nervous
people.
People will figure it out.
And as a percentage, ourcustomers have been amazing.
I would say 95%.
They're like what do you mean?
You don't take tips?
And when we say it's alreadybaked, and they're like that's
(25:29):
amazing.
But we still and they do say,but we still want to leave a tip
we're like you don't need tojust come back again, bring a
friend.
At the beginning people justdid not listen.
They would still put cash down.
But I will say that customers,we're attracting the customers
that we want, Like they'll keepcoming back.
(25:50):
What we do with the cash, thatthe people that don't listen to
us.
We do keep that.
And we took a poll with ourteam and asked, like how do you
want to spend this?
Do you want caffeine?
Do you want food?
I mean, we do buy a lot ofcaffeine but we do save that for
, like, our team outings.
Speaker 1 (26:09):
I'm curious too.
You mentioned I think it was inan interview, an article in
another podcast that you noticedthere was like a tension
between people I think this wasin the food hall, the tipping
screen and the person on theother side of the counter and on
the tablet.
Is that something that kind offactored in as well to your
decision?
Through those experiences?
Speaker 2 (26:29):
Absolutely, both from the food hall and through our
pop-up time as well, of justlike that awkward pause and, in
addition, like some people, justwouldn't tip.
Speaker 1 (26:43):
Right.
Speaker 2 (26:43):
And I guess that's the point.
We don't expect anybody to tipnow, right.
Which is good, yeah, we justdon't want there to be that
extra pressure.
Speaker 1 (26:54):
Yeah, absolutely the guest impact.
Clearly the staff enjoys thisstructure.
You mentioned the turnoverbeing low, but how have you seen
it in your experience with therestaurants in general?
How have you seen the impact ofthis wage model on
relationships or the way peopleare at work or what's the kind
(27:15):
of impact it's had on the teamand their everyday work?
Speaker 2 (27:20):
I float to the front and get to work with the servers
and see how that operates.
And one thing that's veryapparent is that no one quote
owns a table or a section.
So that's the first and likeobvious thing.
Like everybody helps each otherand if, like someone needs to
(27:43):
like something happens, or likesomebody needs to go mop
something, it's like okay,myself or Edwin or somebody will
go swoop in and just like helpthat table.
So from that customer servicestandpoint it's I do feel like
it's more of a cohesive teameffort in terms of touching all
the tables, talking to peopletoo.
(28:05):
Also, if one of our bartenderswasn't feeling well, we do a lot
of cross-training so that weare able to have somebody else
go and bartend right away, andthen a server they can help each
other out.
So I mean that goes hand inhand with like cross-training.
But also everybody's on thesame team.
(28:27):
They want to like take care ofthe customers and like make sure
, like it's like they can't eventell like something's changed.
And then, similarly, I wouldsay in the kitchen um, this it's
, it's a all hands on deck.
We always we tend to have aboutfour in the kitchen plus our
(28:48):
dishwasher and a prep, cook, andit's a lot of bodies, and I
think as we tweak and makemodifications to our menu, we do
get insight from all of ourteam members, and I think it's
one of those things where wewant to generate different ideas
(29:08):
.
And it's not just all me, it'snot just our chef de cuisine,
danny, it's truly everybody'scontributing me, satya, or Chef
de Cuisine Danny, it's trulyeverybody's contributing.
And by having these differentspecials, it allows us to all
collectively like, come togetherand create different, truly
more revenue opportunities foreverybody.
(29:32):
We just had a soft-shell crab.
It was in season for everybody.
We just had a soft shell crab,it was in season.
So that was a really fun dishthat Danny created and that went
back to like one of the veryfirst dishes that Vinod had made
like 21 years ago, which isreally pretty amazing.
So, sorry, sorry, I'm gettingback to the food, but I guess to
the point, to the point thathaving it more of a
(29:55):
collaborative effort and anopportunity for different menu
items come up as well.
Speaker 1 (30:05):
Awesome.
So it just seems like what itreally does is you know one of
the.
Or it provides more room forcreativity.
You know you're not like in the.
You know working hard and kindof.
You know have room for, forthinking outside of the box.
Or you know you're justsurviving and getting through
the day, but it just allows formore of that time for people to
(30:27):
focus on their own developmentor, like you said, creating
specials and just being creativeand pushing the envelope,
rather than trying to just getthrough and get through the day
to day.
Speaker 2 (30:39):
Yeah, and I mean, just like I mentioned for the
front, cross trainings,everything like in the kitchen,
like everyone's constantlylearning all the different
stations and can jump in at anytime.
That's tremendous and it'severything.
Speaker 1 (30:52):
Absolutely yeah, no, I mean it's.
It's it allows people to helpout and I think the it seems
like the revenue sharing and thebase wage structure allows
people to do that, because theydon't have to worry about oh,
I'm losing my table if I go helpdo something else.
Speaker 2 (31:04):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (31:06):
I do kind of want to just wrap things up with some of
your recommendations for other.
You know you mentioned talkingto other restaurant owners and
people doing similar things inChicago and how that helped, and
that's kind of what I'm tryingto do with this show right is be
able to have thoseconversations available to
anyone who wants to and iscurious about running
(31:29):
restaurants in the way thatyou're doing it or looking to
try and do it in a way that'sdifferent from the norm or at
least the historical norm.
So what advice would you giveto a restaurant who's looking to
explore these alternative wageoptions not the traditional
tipped minimum, or any adviceyou would give to someone who is
apprehensive or thinking ofmaking that change for their
(31:51):
business or starting a newbusiness with that?
Speaker 2 (31:53):
in place.
First, I mean really identifywhat your customer base too.
I mean like, of course, youknow your concept, you know what
you're creating, but thinkabout who is your customer and
then, at the end of the day,what customer do you want to
(32:14):
attract?
That's the first part.
But then for us I think we,just for nodes, background,
knowing and wanting to do allthe calculations we're like we
can only do so much theorganizations one fair wage
raise high roads.
Those were the first two thatwe found and, like we, we still
(32:34):
go back and I will say that wasbecause we started researching
restaurants locally, that wereally respect and appreciate
what they're doing.
And, at the end of the day,we're all doing something
different, but we all went tothe same resources and I think,
at the core of it, just doingwhat feels right for your
(32:56):
business model, for yourcustomers, I think that's the
biggest thing.
And I will say one thing Ididn't touch upon too much was
using the QR code.
You know we were nervous aboutthat and our customer base, like
they're into it.
And so I think again, it's like, think about, like your, your
(33:19):
audience and also just try it.
If it doesn't work, pivot.
And I'm going to say, like wethought at the beginning we were
going to be a counter service.
A week into it we're like Nope,we're not, we need to take
reservations.
And then we started takingreservations and then we just
kept going.
So those are the two thingslike reach out, look for
(33:42):
organizations and restaurants,or reach out to us, and if
something doesn't work, thenchange it and keep going.
Speaker 1 (33:52):
Were there any big changes that you made quickly?
Speaker 2 (34:05):
or even recently, that just things that weren't
working out and you needed tomake an adjustment.
And then, like it'll be firstcome, first serve, we had an
overwhelming response and wewere open for just for lunch and
we just didn't feel comfortable.
Nor did we.
Just we didn't want customersto have to wait for so long and
(34:26):
then feel that pressure and wedidn't want to have the churn
and burn either.
And so after like a week and ahalf, we realized and we were
only open for lunch we're like,okay, we need to like pace this
out.
So we went to the first, weshopped around with the
different reservation platformsand immediately got onto one and
we've been with them sinceOpenTable and I'm going to say
(34:49):
that that really helped pace outthe seat of the customers.
And I think, to answer yourquestion, like we only opened
for lunch when we first opened.
So we opened at the end ofApril and only after a month of
being comfortable with lunch,then we're like, okay, we got
(35:10):
this.
And then we opened up fordinner and then, once we had a
dinner, that's when we realizedagain we need to make some
adjustments.
So we would make adjustments toour dinner menu.
So it was very much anincremental approach for us and
then once we tweaked our dinnermenu after that, we felt it was
very smooth sailing.
(35:31):
Just thinking back of any othermajor changes, since I would
say more just menu updates andthen our talking points, like as
we got to know our customersmore, as we had more repeat
customers, I think just changingsome of our messaging.
(35:51):
But I mean, I think I wouldjust like just learning from our
customers and just seeing, likewhat specials do better than
others and, for example, so Ithink, just constantly getting
that feedback loop from them aswell.
Speaker 1 (36:04):
Very cool, yeah.
So just focusing on that, youknow that, that feedback loop
and making sure that everybodyis comfortable with it and
everything's working out, and Iguess it just comes down to
talking to your staff, right?
Speaker 2 (36:17):
Exactly yes.
So I think that's and bless ourstaff, like we're so grateful
and we're so like we have anamazing team all around and and
our 15 months, like none of itwould be possible without all of
them.
It's, I'm very grateful and I'mso proud of our team.
(36:38):
We've accomplished a lot injust a short period of time.
Speaker 1 (36:41):
Absolutely yeah.
So I'm just curious, as we, aswe start to kind of wrap up,
what's next for you guys?
What are you looking forward tothis year, or any exciting
things that you're working on orthings you want to share that
you're up to with our audience?
Speaker 2 (36:57):
Sure, actually, as we speak, in just a few weeks I
get to travel to New York torepresent Chicago for James
Beard 20.
And there are 20 chefs comingtogether in New York for this
new cohort, and so what it'sabout this will be in a few
(37:20):
weeks, july 24th, and we will bepresenting a bite, so that will
be amazing.
And being able to do moreevents.
There's something called Tasteof Nations Share Our Strength,
which supports food insecurity.
Doing more events like that,it's like we got past our year.
(37:44):
One try to do more work withthe community.
It's like this is our time thatwe want to start doing more of
that.
Then the second part buildingout some of our condiments.
So I started in the industrymaking or selling other people's
ketchup.
I still love ketchup and I nowmake a spicy beet ketchup for
(38:06):
our lunch menu.
So looking into bottling andselling that in our retail space
.
So hot sauce and beet ketchupin our retail space in our
retail space.
So hot sauce and beet ketchupin our retail space in our
restaurant area.
Speaker 1 (38:21):
Thank you so much for joining us on the show today.
Speaker 2 (38:23):
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (38:25):
Thanks again for checking out this episode of the
Pre-Shift.
If you enjoyed it, please leaveus a review and rating and
share it with one of yourfriends to help the show grow.
Also, be sure to subscribe toour Food Runner newsletter.
Once a month you get a roundupof resources, practical tips and
industry leader insights tolearn more quickly.
Sign up at 7shiftscom.
(38:46):
Slash food runner.
Check the link in thedescription.
Until next time.
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