Evolving Zoo Animal Welfare Science with Dr. Lance J. Miller of Brookfield Zoo Chicago

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Explore zoo animal welfare with Dr. Lance J. Miller, a leading authority in animal welfare science at Brookfield Zoo Chicago, formerly Chicago Zoological Society's Brookfield Zoo.

Lance is Vice President of Animal Welfare Science at Brookfield Zoo Chicago, but he also holds a slough of other appointments.

He’s Chair of the Alliance of Marine Mammal Parks and Aquariums Animal Welfare Committee, an Advisor to the Association of Zoos and Aquariums’ (AZA) Research and Technology Committee, Animal Welfare Committee, and the Behavioral Scientific Advisory Group, and he’s a Steering Committee Member for AZA’s Ambassador Animal Scientific Advisory Group. 

Lance is also internationally active in the field, currently serving as the Vice-Chair for the World Association of Zoos and Aquarium's (WAZA) Ethics and Animal Welfare Committee, and as Chair of the WAZA Ethics Subcommittee.

There's a lot to take in here. We talk about:

• the difference between animal rights and welfare
• going beyond the five freedoms to providing opportunities to thrive
• the cetacean welfare study - the largest multi-institutional study of cetacean welfare in existence
• behavioral diversity, behavioral stereotypies, and other indicators of indicator of animal welfare
• how technology like Zoo PhysioTrack and ZooMonitor are reshaping the landscape of animal welfare monitoring
• the ethics of animals in zoos and the perceptions of visitors in relation to conservation and welfare

This episode will enrich your understanding of a complex, interdisciplinary field that blends science and ethics and showcases in the best case human compassion and commitment to the animals we keep at zoos and aquariums.

I hope you enjoy the conversation!

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The PrimateCast is hosted and produced by Andrew MacIntosh. Artwork by Chris Martin. Music by Andre Goncalves.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
After the tune a conversation with Brookfield Zoo
, Chicago animal welfarescientist, Dr Lance Miller.
Evolution Communication.

Speaker 2 (00:17):
Cognition Conservation.
Behavior Primatology Typicallyprimates.

Speaker 1 (00:27):
Become the monkey.
Hey everyone, welcome to thePrimateCast.
I am your host, andrew McIntosh, now of the Wilder Institute
Calgary Zoo, and I believethrough this show it is my job
to chat with experts inprimatology, wildlife science
and beyond and share the storiesgained with you.

(00:47):
So before getting into today'sconversation, I just want to
take a moment to thank some newsupporters of the show Oliver
and MonkeyWire.
Oliver had this to say aboutthe show Happy to support the
Primate cast has been a greatsource of information to me as
I've developed in my own career.
It really helps make the fieldmore accessible to a wide range

(01:07):
of audiences.
Looking forward to seeing whereyou take it next.
Thanks, ollie, and me too.
On that last point, I'm alsoreally happy to hear you mention
accessibility.
I've said it before on thispodcast and elsewhere, but when
Chris Martin and I started thispodcast, it was really because
we noticed how many incredibleprimate scientists were actually
rolling through KyotoUniversity's Primate Research

(01:28):
Institute.
Despite that, we'regeographically so far away in
Japan, apart from those of youwho are lucky enough, like I was
, to be at or near one of thosevery few research hubs dotting
the globe, it's actually quitehard to get access to these
people and certainly hear aboutthose paths that took them to
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So I'm both happy and extremelygrateful to be able to share

(01:50):
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So, yeah, we are an accessibleshow and people seem to be
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It's super cool to see, and Ilove seeing those numbers keep

(02:11):
growing, so let's make sure thatkeeps happening.
Yeah, and then the other one,monkeywire, also added this
short but sweet note.
Thanks for all that you do.
You're welcome, it is apleasure and it is an honor, and
thank you for taking the timeto brighten my day with such
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show rolling here.

(02:32):
But just to remind all of youout there who are listening that
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(02:52):
from the show.
Word of mouth works just great,but I definitely look forward
to a new round of shout outsthat I'll be happy to give when
the next episode airs.
But in the meantime, I have agreat show for you coming up
here with Dr Lance J Miller,vice President of Animal Welfare
Science at Brookfield Zoo,chicago, formerly Chicago
Zoological Society's BrookfieldZoo.

(03:14):
Lance has a lot of differentco-appointments and I'm going to
try and go through them here,but these are born of his
commitment to, and clearexpertise in, animal welfare
science.
He's Chair of the Alliance ofMarine Mammal Parks and
Aquariums Animal WelfareCommittee.
He's an advisor to a wholebunch of programs in the
Association of Zoos andAquariums or AZA, for example,

(03:35):
their Research and TechnologyCommittee, their Animal Welfare
Committee and their BehavioralScientific Advisory Group, and
he's also a steering committeemember for AZA's Ambassador
Animal Scientific Advisory Group.
And he's also a steeringcommittee member for AZA's
Ambassador Animal ScientificAdvisory Group.
He is currently the vice chairfor the World Association of
Zoos and Aquariums Ethics andAnimal Welfare Committee and
chair of the WASA EthicsSubcommittee.

(03:58):
His involvement in internationalanimal welfare science is one
of the main reasons I invitedLance to Japan in March 2023,
which is when this interview wasrecorded.
The other reasons related tohis specific research that he
does in animal welfare science.
A few years ago I was fortunateenough to receive a grant from
Kyoto University to work ondeveloping novel behavioral

(04:22):
tools to assess animal welfareand, in particular, to implement
an early warning system foranimals descending into patterns
of abnormal or stereotypicalbehavior.
And totally coincidentally, bythe way, I was just presenting
some of that work at an Albertaprimatology conference right
here at the University ofCalgary last week.
But that digression aside,because of the research I was

(04:43):
conducting, I was made aware ofLance's work in behavioral
diversity, which he argues is akey indicator of animal welfare.
That topic does come up in theinterview.
But what ended up being muchmore important during his visit
to Japan was an event that weset up at Kyoto City Zoo through
my friend and colleague, drYumi Yamanashi, which was
focused on animal welfarescience in Japan and in the USA.

(05:07):
That event was attended byhundreds of participants, mainly
, or most even, based at zoosthroughout Japan.
Lance talked about thediscipline of animal welfare
science and the many ways inwhich Brookfield Zoo, chicago
and other AZA-accreditedfacilities are contributing to
animal care, health and welfareand the evolution thereof.

(05:28):
These are topics that became afocus of our own conversation
for the podcast, but Lance alsotalks about his own path to
becoming an animal welfarescientist and the many stops he
had along the way.
I think his story is reallygoing to help others considering
this as a potential career path, as well as just being of
interest to anyone who wants toknow about those who dedicate
their careers to this kind ofwork.

(05:49):
Some other topics that come upin the interview include the
incredible cetacean welfarestudy.
That's the largestmulti-institutional study of
cetacean welfare ever conducted,basically, and Lance had a huge
part in setting that up.
We also talk aboutstereotypical behavior in
animals and other behavioralindicators of health and welfare
, and we also talk aboutstereotypical behavior in
animals and other behavioralindicators of health and welfare
, and we even talk about publicperceptions of animals in zoos

(06:10):
and its relation to welfare andconservation.
Now, having taught anundergraduate course on zoo
biology for years at KyotoUniversity, I was really excited
to speak with Lance about histhoughts on the matter, and you
can just see me trying to tacklealmost all of the issues of
animal welfare at zoos in onesingle swoop, but it was really

(06:30):
nice that we had the week priorto the interview to get to know
each other a little bit reallyfacilitated the conversation.
But Lance always just had thethoughtful and really to the
point, insightful answers to allof my questions, even when it
seemed that I droned on and oninto the preamble abyss before
finally landing one.
But one of the key takeawaysfrom this conversation for me

(06:53):
relates to how societal viewsand the industry views on animal
welfare have evolved over theyears, from previously just
making sure that we addressedthe bare minimum to now where
we're really trying our best toprovide ample opportunity for
every animal or every individualanimal under human care, to
really flourish and thrive.

(07:15):
One can only hope that we'rewell on our way to achieving
that dream.
But as always, I learned a tonfrom this interview and we did
cover a lot of ground in the zooanimal welfare space.
So I hope you enjoy thisconversation about zoo animal
welfare science with Dr LanceMiller.
Currently I think zoos kind oflook at themselves as these

(07:35):
places not just for people to goand be entertained and have a
day out with the family althoughthey are that, they are that
but also to be educated aboutthe animals in the collection
and also about issues related totheir health, welfare and
conservation.
And then also there's researchis a big part of it, and so how

(07:57):
have you seen in your career andI'll ask you in a moment about
you know how you got into thiscurrent role but maybe to start,
how have you seen that kind ofphilosophy of zoos or activities
of zoos changing throughoutyour own interactions with them?

Speaker 2 (08:13):
I don't think things have changed a whole lot.
I think there's maybe a greateremphasis on some things, but I
don't think things have changedthat much.
Even before we called it animalwelfare, zoos were always
focused on providing the highestquality care At least
accredited I should sayaccredited zoos and aquariums
have always been committed tothe care and the welfare of

(08:33):
their animals, even if weweren't calling it animal
welfare at that point in time,so there might be a greater
emphasis on the terms that areutilized, but zoos and aquariums
have always been committed tothe care and welfare of the
animals under their care.
These days, we actually arefocused on what are the things

(08:57):
that we need to be doing,because animals are living
longer than they used to,because they do have such
amazing care, and so focusing onthat geriatric population and
making sure that we're meetingtheir needs as well.

Speaker 1 (09:09):
So for a little bit of context for the listeners,
Lance has been in Japan for thelast week and has been looking
at different or visitingcolleagues at different
institutions, and we had anevent at Kyoto City Zoo that was
about animal welfare science inthe US and in Japan, and we
were meeting with somecolleagues there.
Yumi Onashi, who's a goodfriend and colleague of mine,

(09:32):
was talking about the extremelyold rhesus monkeys that they
have or had until recently atKyoto City Zoo and how it became
a kind of fan favorite with thevisitors at the zoo.
So they set up a separatehabitat for the geriatric
animals that they moved theminto and called it kind of like.

(09:52):
This was kind of like aretirement home for the for some
of the monkeys, and it becamekind of a draw as well.
But so what do we?
What have we learned thenrecently about, you know, having
these really old animals?

Speaker 2 (10:05):
What we're learning is that these animals are
experiencing a lot of the samethings that older humans
experience, so things like heartconditions or arthritis, and so
just trying to learn the besttechniques to make sure that
those animals are comfortable inthe older ages.

Speaker 1 (10:21):
So, if we can go back a little bit, you in your
career.
I think you graduated or yougot a doctorate at the
University of SouthernMississippi and then we're off
to Disney's Animal Kingdombefore.
Maybe you can interjectsomething.

Speaker 2 (10:34):
Oh, the other way around.
Actually, the other way around,yeah.
So when I graduated from myundergraduate university, took a
job at Disney's Animal Kingdom,was there for about seven years
and then returned to graduateschool at the University of
Southern Mississippi.

Speaker 1 (10:47):
I see Okay, so what was your main kind of function
or role at Disney's AnimalKingdom?

Speaker 2 (10:51):
So I started off in the education department.
On the weekends I would go downto Tampa Bay and volunteer my
time to assist a graduatestudent studying bottlenose
dolphins in Tampa Bay, florida.
A research position opened upat Disney and they hired me in
as a research associate and Iworked my way up to a research
manager and kind of hit aplateau and realized I couldn't
go any further in my careeruntil I went back to school.

(11:13):
And so that's when I returnedto graduate school and did my
master's and PhD in experimentalpsychology.

Speaker 1 (11:19):
Okay.
So what were some of the kindof projects that you were
involved with?
I mean, disney's Animal Kingdomis kind of like maybe it's this
kind of iconic idea about,obviously, the Disney franchise,
um, and I've never been there,but I've heard, uh, you know,
maybe people talk about it andhave known some colleagues
who've gone through there andworked at it.
So I think the commitment tothe animal there is is is pretty

(11:41):
high, um, but also there's alot of research, there's a lot
of education happening there aswell.
So what were kind of yourinvolvements with that?

Speaker 2 (11:49):
So, from a research standpoint, I had a very unique
position, which was amazing.
Half my time was spent focusedon conservation projects and
then the other half of my timewas spent focused on the welfare
of the animals at Disney'sAnimal Kingdom.
And so, from the conservationside of things, I did everything
from working on projects withcotton-top tamarins in Columbia,
south America, to doing turtlecounts on the beaches of Vero

(12:12):
Beach, florida.
From a welfare standpoint, wedid some projects looking at
stereotypic behavior in tigers,all sorts of different studies
looking at animals throughoutthe animal kingdom.

Speaker 1 (12:28):
Okay, cool, you mentioned the cotton-top
tamarins, so what was theinvolvement of having the wild
population examined as well?
So there was a population atthe zoo, so was there any kind
of conservation activitiessurrounding that?

Speaker 2 (12:45):
So the work that we did with cotton-top tamarins was
through a group called ProyectoTT, which is located in
Columbia, south America.
My main role was trying to getthe staff that were on the
ground trained up to do somework looking at, basically, a

(13:08):
census so how many cotton-toptamarins are actually left in
Colombia and so we did a wholebunch of work getting them
trained up, getting them readyto go, and then they actually
conducted the field work after Ileft and went back to graduate
school.

Speaker 1 (13:23):
I see, so these were reintroduced.
Introduced animals.

Speaker 2 (13:26):
No, these are all just wild animals, just wild
animals.

Speaker 1 (13:28):
Okay, so you weren't doing.
I thought you meant you weredoing training at the zoo or
something.

Speaker 2 (13:32):
No training in South America?
In South America I see.

Speaker 1 (13:34):
Okay, yeah, really interesting.
I I'm quite fascinated by theinteractions that um that
zoological institutions,institutions have had with
conservation on the ground andthe field.
We had a podcast earlier with aformer graduate student and
postdoc of mine, valeria Romano,who worked.
She was a student in Brazil whoworked on the Golden Lion

(13:55):
Tamarin project and is now doinga bit more work with them as
well.
So she attended a meeting thatthey had for that project a
number of years ago andobviously a lot of zoos were
involved in the small populationmanagement and reintroductions,
in addition to theconservationists in Brazil and
the local landowners as well.
So it was kind of a nice, maybelike one of the typical success

(14:18):
stories that you know that wehave out there for kind of zoo
conservationists, localcollaboration.

Speaker 2 (14:26):
Yeah, that's definitely a good example kind
of zoo conservationists, localcollaboration, yeah that's
definitely a good example.

Speaker 1 (14:30):
There's a lot of them , though, yeah, yeah, well,
maybe we can get to some ofthose a bit later, but okay, so
you went after Disney's animalkingdom back to grad school, um,
and then, uh, at some pointended up at San Diego's
Institute for conservation, uh,research.
Is that what it was called SanDiego zoo Institute for
conservation research?
Is that what it was called SanDiego Zoo Institute for
Conservation Research?
Yep, okay, and so what kind ofrole did you have there?

Speaker 2 (14:49):
So I was in a scientist position very similar
but 100% of my time was focusedon the animals at the zoo in the
park, so it wasn't like thesplit at Disney.

Speaker 1 (15:02):
And so I think you mentioned too that your first
boss there was Fred Berkovich,who was a colleague of mine here
at Kyoto University many yearsago, and so I heard a lot about
some of the activities that werehappening there, and of course
it's a world-renownedinstitution as well for science
and research and forconservation.
So what were the kind of main Idon't know species or projects

(15:24):
that you were working on?

Speaker 2 (15:25):
So I was very fortunate In my time in San
Diego.
I got to work with a lot ofgreat individuals to grow animal
welfare program from the groundup.
We did everything frompreference assessments with the
large carnivores to looking atfactors that influence carnivore
welfare.
We did some projects looking athippo vocalizations, all sorts

(15:49):
of unique things.
It was a lot of fun.

Speaker 1 (15:52):
So what do you learn about hippo vocalizations?
Not a whole lot, to be honest.
I don't think I can recall atime of seeing hippos vocalizing
in my mini zoo experiences.
Yeah, we didn't learn a wholelot from that project,
unfortunately, okay, uh, but ofcourse many of the other ones.

(16:13):
I'm sure you still have a lotof lasting results from.
Uh, yes, yeah, not yesterday.
When we visited the kyoto cityzoo together on wednesday, uh,
we were fortunate enough to seea kind of interesting display by
the Asian elephants that theyhave there.
It was quite frenetic andactive and vocal.

Speaker 2 (16:30):
Yes.

Speaker 1 (16:31):
Yes, definitely true.
All right, so San Diego Zoo,and so you've been in the
current position in ChicagoZoological Society and
Brookfield Zoo for what?
Something like seven years.

Speaker 2 (16:43):
I started back in the spring of 2014.

Speaker 1 (16:47):
And so was it from the beginning in the same kind
of position that you had now.

Speaker 2 (16:52):
So I started off as Senior Director of Animal
Welfare Research and, probablyabout four years ago, was
promoted to Vice President ofConservation Science and Animal
Welfare Research.

Speaker 1 (17:02):
Okay, and so, in addition to kind of overseeing
some of the research there, whatis a kind of typical day or
look like for you?

Speaker 2 (17:11):
So a lot of my time is spent behind a computer
writing grant proposals, writingmanuscripts from research that
we've concluded.
But I do get to go out into thezoo, um, especially during when
when we have new stuff ortraining and different things
like that.
So, um, it's very rewarding.

Speaker 1 (17:32):
You presented some of the uh, some of the scientific
projects that you're doing foruh, and and maybe this is
something we can get into a bitlater too Um, but one of the
things that I wanted to kind ofstick on for a moment is, I
think more and more there's agrowing demand for
multi-institutional projects.

(17:54):
So within, of course, yourorganization, you have a certain
structure and certainactivities that you would
regularly be doing.
But so how does that?
You know, to what extent isthat really becoming a kind of
standard in the practice ofdoing animal welfare research,
to work in collaboration withother institutions?

Speaker 2 (18:13):
Yeah, so for a lot of the studies that we've been
conducting recently, they havebeen more multi-institutional in
nature In order to look at thevariability across institutions.
The more institutions thatprovide data for those studies,
it's just going to give youbetter results, and so the more
facilities that can cooperatetogether and really build those
larger data sets to give youmore information, it's just

(18:36):
really critical.

Speaker 1 (18:39):
Okay and does it?
Yeah, not to throw any otherinstitutions under the bus or
anything, but I was just curiousabout and I asked you this
during the seminar I thinkthere's a lot of administration
that goes into getting all thedifferent partners on board and
obviously you kind of expect acertain amount of additional
work that they have to put in.

(18:59):
So there's got to be this kindof reciprocal relationship that
you can have with people.
But for you, what was theprocess, like you know,
developing those collaborationsand you know, and also, how did
you approach?
You know, making sure that forthe partners there's, there
should be value also for doingthat kind of stuff?

Speaker 2 (19:19):
I think so.
To put it in context for thosethat are listening, the cetacean
welfare study was the largestever study of its kind for
cetaceans and I think it reallydemonstrates the industry's
collective commitment to thecontinuous improvement of the
welfare of cetaceans.
Those of us that work in zoosand aquariums have a pretty good

(19:44):
understanding that the animalsthrive under our professional
care, but we're always lookingfor areas where we can make
improvements and I think thisstudy was a really good example
of that in terms of justeveryone coming together and,
with the Association of Zoos andAquariums and the Alliance of
Marine Mammal Parks andAquariums support, it was really

(20:05):
easy to get these facilities toall work together and just do
what again?
just really does demonstratetheir collective commitment.

Speaker 1 (20:17):
So maybe it's a good place to talk about the Cetacean
Welfare Project.
Can you describe kind of whatthat was and what the goals were
?

Speaker 2 (20:24):
Sure, so we worked with 43 facilities in seven
different countries.
Part one of the study was todevelop reference intervals and
values for some common and novelindicators of health and
welfare for four species ofcetaceans.
Those were common bottlenosedolphins, Indo-Pacific
bottlenose dolphins, Pacificwhite-sided dolphins anduga
Whales.
The end result was a new IOSapplication called Zoo

(20:48):
PhysioTrack, where facilitiesthat have those species of
cetaceans can freely downloadthe app and pull up, enter some
basic demographic informationabout the animals that they care
for and make sure that theanimals fall within the healthy
reference intervals that areprovided.
Part two of the study focusedjust on common bottlenose

(21:10):
dolphins and Indo-Pacificbottlenose dolphins, and we
looked at factors such asenrichment, animal training,
habitat characteristics, socialmanagement and, ultimately, what
we found was that all thethings that our amazing animal
care staff do on a day-to-daybasis was most important in
terms of correlating withindicators of animal welfare,

(21:31):
while size of the habitat wassignificantly less important.

Speaker 1 (21:35):
Yeah, that was one thing that drew a bunch of
questions, when you presentedthis the other day, from us
wildlife researchers.
When we think of the size, Welland that's also an issue that
often comes up is, you know,providing the kind of space that
many of the animals needactually?
So it was interesting to seethat.
I think everybody canappreciate that there are many
factors that go into thewell-being of an animal, but to

(22:00):
see from your data that the sizeand I think I asked you what
range of sizes you had it wasquite large.
So there were many, you know,smaller to much larger by
multiples you mentioned.
So it's quite interesting tosee that that wouldn't be the
dominant and maybe not sosurprising, but interesting to
see that it wasn't the dominantfactor, Definitely.

Speaker 2 (22:20):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (22:20):
I mean, is that something in terms of an output
that kind of gives people a sighof relief in a way, or how
should zoos kind of look at thatresult?

Speaker 2 (22:45):
having animals such as cetaceans or elephants in
habitats that are so muchdifferent from their native
habitats.
So I think we really need to doa better job of educating them
that it really is all the thingsthat our amazing animal care
staff do on a day-to-day basisthat really makes for the great
care and welfare.

Speaker 1 (22:58):
Do you think then, on the flip side of that, if the
zoo has the opportunity toincrease the space that an
animal has access to, that it'sinsufficient in the way that?
So if, if having a smaller sizeisn't the dominating factor for
having negative welfareoutcomes, then the corollary of
that would be increasing thesize might not have as much

(23:19):
welfare benefit as you mightnormally predict correct.
In which case maybe justadjusting the size might not be
the first thing that they shouldfocus on, but it would be the
other kinds of activities orenrichment opportunities that
could be provided.

Speaker 2 (23:32):
Correct, yeah.
So from a welfare standpoint,zoos and aquariums should really
be investing more and more intheir animal care staff and
making sure that they have theresources that they need to
provide all that greatenrichment and training.

Speaker 1 (23:45):
So you mentioned a moment ago Zoo PhysioTrack.
So this is an app that peoplecan access.
I think you said it was free.
It is free, yes, and so thatwould be a way to track kind of
physiological markers in the zooanimals that you would be using
and could eventually use forreference values or comparative
purposes.
And I noticed you mentionedsome other.

(24:05):
There was something youmentioned in your talk the other
day ZooMorphTrack, I believe itwas called.
I know Lincoln Park Zoo inChicago has developed a
ZooMonitor, which is a behaviorrecording data collection
software that I think now isbeing used by many different
facilities around the US, and Iactually use it with my students
and interns.

(24:26):
It seems like, oh, and I thinkyou mentioned ZIMS.
So ZIMS is another moredatabase-oriented way to keep
track of the individuals thatare in human care, but at
institutions like ZIMS andaquariums.
But it seems like there's a lotof kind of tech also being
developed to support the welfarepractices, and so how do you

(24:49):
kind of implement these intoyour own kind of work?
Do you think there's a lot ofpromise for that and what maybe
is still kind of missing?
Do you see any other ways thatwe could automate things to make
them more effective?

Speaker 2 (25:00):
So yeah, zoom MorphTrack was an app that came
out of a collaboration between anumber of different
institutions.
We are very fortunate at theChicago Zoological Society to
have the Sarasota DolphinResearch Program, which is run
by Dr Randy Wells.
They've been studying thosedolphins for over 50 years in

(25:22):
Sarasota Bay Florida studyingthose dolphins for over 50 years
in Sarasota Bay Florida, andfrom that they have a whole
bunch of data that we can use tobetter manage animals within
the Brookfield Zoo or anyfacilities that have bottlenose
dolphins.
And so Zoo Morph Track isactually an application where a
facility can log in or downloadthe app for free and pull it up

(25:42):
and look at does their dolphinfall within the healthy range of
weights for an animal comparedto Sarasota Bay Florida?
And so they enter in the length, the girth and the weight of
their animal and the age and acouple other demographic
information and it'll actuallyplot where their animal falls

(26:03):
compared to animals in SarasotaBay Florida to make sure that
they're within a healthy weightrange.
But to answer your otherquestion, I think the technology
is continuing to advance to thepoint where, hopefully, in the
not too distant future, we'll beable to automatically record
behavior of animals withouthaving to be there in person.

Speaker 1 (26:22):
Yeah, this is something that's very
interesting to me, and I thinkin your cetacean welfare project
you had some devices that wereattached M-tags, I believe
they're called attached todolphins so that you could
record some kinds of behavior.
So can you maybe talk a littlebit about those?

Speaker 2 (26:38):
Yeah, sure.
So that actually came out of awonderful partnership with the
University of MichiganEngineering Department, dr Alex
Shorter's lab.
They had previously developedwhat were called digital tags,
or D tags, which had been usedon wild whales and dolphins for
quite some time, and, workingwith them, we partnered to

(27:03):
create what's called an M tag,or a movement tag, which doesn't
have the hydrophones that theoriginal D tag had, but but it
had a couple different sensorsto allow us to recreate 3D
tracks of how the dolphins wereusing their space for the
Salutation Welfare Study.

Speaker 1 (27:17):
So what kind of data were they actually collecting or
logging on the animals?

Speaker 2 (27:21):
So there's a variety of different sensors in it
there's an accelerometer,gyroscope, magnetometer,
pressure sensor to look at depth, an impeller to look at
velocity, and the suction cupsthat are used to attach it to
the dolphins were speciallydesigned to make sure that they
would stay on without doing anydamage to the dolphin's skin.

Speaker 1 (27:43):
Yeah, it was like super well.
That generated also someinterest because we have a lot
of people who do wildlifetracking, for example, and some
of our faculty at the WildlifeResearch Center also study
cetaceans and mentioned thatit's actually quite hard, so
they don't stay on kind of forlong enough.
And then there's other issuesgetting into international

(28:03):
waters around Japan.
that you don't have to worryabout, I think in a zoological
or aquarium setting.
But the kinds of data that youcan get are really interesting.
And I think I asked you, and Ithink I want to ask again for
the listeners, how you think sothose dolphins were wearing
those, the M tags and beforethat some dummy N tags so they
could habituate right, and theyended up wearing those for quite

(28:26):
some time.
They could be removed, you know, at certain times as well by
the training staff.
But did you hear anything aboutthe public perception of having
the animals wearing deviceslike that?
And you can ask the samequestion about having animals
interact with computer screensduring cognitive testing or, you
know, carrying iPads around.

(28:46):
So we've seen some gorillas inthe past doing.
Do you think there's anyspecial need for a different
kind of messaging when you havedevices deployed with animals to
make sure that the publicunderstands what's going on?

Speaker 2 (29:00):
So at the Brookfield Zoo during this study, we
actually had signs made toinform the public about the
research that was going on.
And what's great is, as welearn more and more from our
audience research, the morevisitors learn about what's
going on behind the scenes interms of the research and all
the great things that our animalcare staff does.

(29:20):
They really do have a higherperception of the level of care
and welfare that the animalsreceive.
So educating our visitors aboutall that stuff is really,
really important.

Speaker 1 (29:32):
So a moment ago you mentioned that.
So the partnership that youhave with the I'm forgetting the
name of it, but it was in theSarasota Bay.

Speaker 2 (29:44):
So the Chicago Zoological Society has the
Sarasota Dolphin ResearchProgram.

Speaker 1 (29:48):
Okay, so that's under the CZS.
Yes, then because of that youhave this opportunity to kind of
compare whether it's themorphological traits,
physiological traits, behavioraltraits you see in your animals
with what's actually happeningthere.
And it kind of raises this kindof philosophical, also

(30:12):
scientific, question of howshould we think about where the
goalposts should be for any ofthose range of traits with
respect to what you see in thewild.
So is it?
You know, if you see behaviorsof dolphins in the Brookfield
Zoo that kind of looks similarto what you would see in

(30:33):
Sarasota Bay would kind of giveyou a sigh of relief as well.
But is that?
Do you think that has to be thegold standard?
Is there a different way thatwe have to think about, like,
what the standards for animalsin professional care should be?

Speaker 2 (30:46):
The thing I always want people to think about is
the fact that nature isn'talways perfect.
It's not this pristine, perfectenvironment.
Take bottlenose dolphins inSarasota Bay, florida, for
example.
They have potential predators,they have pollution, they have
boats going by every 20 secondsor however often it is, and so

(31:06):
when we think about animals inzoos and aquariums, they don't
have to deal with all thosedifferent pressures.
And so when we think about thewelfare of animals, we do make
comparisons to wild, especiallyif there's data available, like
the Sarasota Dolphin ResearchProgram, which is absolutely
wonderful.
But in zoos and aquariums wehave so many different species

(31:28):
that there's just not naturalhistory information available,
and so in those cases, what wetypically do is look at okay,
how are our animals at thebrookfield zoo comparing,
compared to the same speciesacross aza institutions?

Speaker 1 (31:43):
and so what?
What would be the outcome ofthat?
So let's say you did a a bigcomparison.
You had some species that youwere interested in or worried
about.
You did some kind of broadcomparison within AZA
institutions, and maybe youcould even be expanded to
international institutions.
But so how would you use theinformation then to make
decisions?

Speaker 2 (32:01):
So it just really depends on the situation.
So if you're, let's say, youhave a species that may not be
doing as well as the other AZApopulations, or maybe you find a
difference compared to theirwild counterparts, the best
thing to do is collect moreinformation.
So either reaching out to thoseother facilities to find out

(32:22):
what are the differences inmanagement techniques that are
being used, and then either Amaking management changes to
improve the care and welfare ofthose species, or sometimes it
comes down to making a difficultdecision of maybe moving those
animals to a different facilitywhere they might have a better,
better overall welfare.

Speaker 1 (32:40):
Is that a pretty common outcome?

Speaker 2 (32:42):
I don't believe so.
I mean it does happenoccasionally, but I don't think
it's a very common thing.
I mean I'm a firm believer thatwith enough science we can
provide high levels of care andwelfare for pretty much most
species.

Speaker 1 (32:56):
So in the dolphin welfare project that you just
talked about, you had over 40different partner institutions,
and so was there any kind ofdirect outcomes in terms of how
the animals are managed or whatkind of enrichment is given from
that project itself?

Speaker 2 (33:11):
Yeah, so just using Brookfield Zoo as an example, we
already had a very robustenrichment program, but as a
result of that program there'snow a person who's dedicated
just to environmental enrichment, and that really is a result of
that project.

Speaker 1 (33:25):
What do they do specifically for environmental
enrichment for dolphins?

Speaker 2 (33:29):
So there's a variety of things I mean.
It can be anything fromcognitive enrichment to
providing different things inthe environment for the animals
to interact with.
It's all behavior-based.
So it's really about not what'sthe fun new little object that
you can put in with the animals.
It's more about what are thebehaviors we're hoping to see

(33:51):
and how to.
How can we get creative tothink about, what are the things
that we can do to allow theanimals to engage in those
behaviors?

Speaker 1 (33:57):
Okay, Interesting Another question I had based on
this dolphin welfare project is.
You mentioned with the M tagsthat you have a collaboration
with the university of of ofMichigan.
I think it was Correct.
And so I think there's a long,probably depending on the
institution, but a lot ofcollaboration between academic

(34:18):
and zoological institutions.
And you know, if you go back tomaybe the origins of many of
the iconic zoos throughout thehistory, at least in Europe and
North America, they were oftenoriginally conceived by or with
scientists and zoology in mind,right, so that you have that
long history.
But I think there's also a lotof I shouldn't say a lot, but

(34:39):
there may be.
I don't know if hesitation isthe right word, but there's not
always going to be tightcollaboration between academic
researchers and those based atzoological institutions, and so
I wonder if maybe you can talkabout like how that those
specific collaborations came outfor you and how that partner,
those kinds of partnerships, canbe really used or taken

(35:01):
advantage of to kind of improvewelfare and even conservation.

Speaker 2 (35:05):
So yeah, I always encourage um, so we teach a, so
we teach an AZA professionaldevelopment course every year
called Animal Welfare, evidenceBased Management, and one of the
things that I always talk aboutis encouraging facilities to
reach out to their localuniversities, because those
partnerships are just invaluable, like just what comes out of
them and what's really nice isfor external researchers.

(35:29):
Like a lot of times I getquestions about well, I don't
work in a zoo, but I'd like todo some research at a zoo.
How do I go about doing that?
And one of the things that theAssociation of Zoos and
Aquariums has done, which hasmade it very convenient, is
actually come up with auniversal research form, and so
if you're an external scientistlooking to do research at AZA
facilities, most will now acceptthis universal form, which

(35:53):
means you don't have to fill out30 different applications to do
a multi-institutional study.
You fill out the one and sendit to the 30 zoos.

Speaker 1 (36:00):
Okay, yeah, recently in the summer, I had some
experience with that in thecontext of Linkin Park Zoo and
for doing collaborative researchthere, and I thought that's
quite a nice idea, extremelyhelpful, Super helpful, and
really lowering the bar, as yousay, to kind of be able to
access those larger scalestudies.
All right, so that's reallyinteresting.

(36:22):
So how about we pivot to animalwelfare and animal welfare
science?
So you said earlier on thattaking the best possible care of
animals has always been animportant goal, or maybe the
primary goal, for you might wantto qualify that with accredited

(36:47):
institutions.
Maybe that's not the sharedgoal for all institutions, but
it's something that has alwaysbeen kind of there.
And I think now, from myunderstanding, at least in
academic institutions, animalwelfare science is like its own
fully fledged field of researchnow in a way that it probably

(37:07):
never was in the past.
Field of research now in a waythat it probably never was in
the past.
And I think the other day, whenyou started your talk about
animal welfare, welfare scienceat modern institutions, I think
your first slide was aboutanimal rights and animal welfare
, and so maybe we can move on tothat.

(37:28):
So, because I think it's reallyimportant distinction for the
rest of this conversation.
So what are animal rights?
And then what is animal welfare?

Speaker 2 (37:38):
So yeah, so a lot of times when I give presentations,
I like to start off talkingabout the difference between
animal rights and animal welfare, because I think it is a really
important distinction betweenthe two.
So when you're talking aboutanimal rights, you're really
talking about a philosophy.
So all of us, based on oureducation, our personal beliefs,
our religion, the people thatwe associate with, there's a

(38:00):
whole bunch of factors thatbasically help determine where
we fall on a continuum in termsof animal rights.
So on one side of thatcontinuum is people have,
basically, they believe animalscan be used for anything.
They can be used for clothing,for food, for entertainment, for
education.
And then, on the far other sideof the continuum, you have

(38:21):
people that believe animalsshouldn't be used for anything
at all, and so, again, based onour personal beliefs, we fall
somewhere on that continuum, andso those of us that work in
zoos and aquariums probably fallsomewhere, usually in the
middle of that continuum.
Now, animal welfare, on theother hand, is a science.
It's something that can bemeasured.
We can't measure animal welfaredirectly, but we can measure

(38:43):
indicators of animal welfare.
And, just like animal rights,animal welfare is also on a
continuum, but in this case itgoes from poor to what I like to
call thriving, and so,measuring those indicators of
welfare, or what we call outputsor outcomes, we can determine
approximately where an animalmight fall on that continuum out
maybe outdated, I'm not sure ifthat's the right word but one

(39:09):
of the frameworks for thinkingabout animal and in some ways it
relates to rights.

Speaker 1 (39:14):
So there was the five rights and freedoms.
Animal rights and freedoms, Isuppose, as a framework for how
we should think about makingsure the animals have the best
kind of or it can be avoided themost negative consequences of
being in in zoologicalfacilities.
So those could be, you know,the freedom from stress and

(39:37):
disease, the freedom from hungerand thirst, freedom from or I
guess to express naturalisticbehavior, freedom to escape as
well.
So but but my understandingfrom talking to people in the
zoo world now is that maybethere's a different way of
thinking about those, those.
But can you kind of walkthrough the history of that and
how it's influenced the kind ofthinking about, um, animal
welfare to now?

Speaker 2 (39:58):
yeah, so for decades the five freedoms were kind of
the gold standard andunfortunately those were kind of
minimum criteria or avoidingthe negative, as you said.
And so years ago I think it wasback in 2015, when I was
working back at the, or it wouldhave been before that, maybe
2013.

(40:19):
It was back when I was at SanDiego Zoo Institute for
Conservation Research and GregVecino and I had just gotten out
of an animal welfare meetingand decided that the five
freedoms just weren't enough.
I mean, those of us that workin zoo and aquariums are always
trying to continuously improve,just like the cetacean welfare
study, as I talked about earlier.
So we actually went back to hisoffice and sat down and came up

(40:42):
with what we called the fiveopportunities to thrive and it's
really just putting a morepositive spin on things and
trying to raise the bar andthink of new ways to continue,
like I said, continuouslyimprove the welfare of animals.

Speaker 1 (40:54):
It's an interesting philosophical switch, though,
isn't it?
Instead of trying to achievethe minimum like the lowest,
let's satisfy the lowest hangingfruit possible.
The goal would then be to gowell beyond that and try to find
ways for the animals to thrive,or flourish, as you said.
But so what would be the keykind of differences there and
how you would frame it, and howcould it lead to actually

(41:17):
differences in how we manage theanimals?

Speaker 2 (41:19):
So, for example, one of them is the opportunity to
engage in species appropriatebehavior.
So really focusing onbehavioral diversity and making
sure that we're meeting thebehavioral needs of animals.
Those of you that are listening, if you know me, know that I
talk about behavioral diversityquite a bit.
For those of you that aren'tfamiliar, behavioral diversity

(41:42):
the general idea behind it isthat if behavioral diversity is
high, we're likely meeting thebehavioral needs of the animals,
but if it's low, the animalsare probably lethargic or
stereotyping, both of which canbe signs of compromised welfare.
So it doesn't guarantee thatwe're meeting the needs of the
animals, but for everyadditional behavior that we see,
it's one less behavior thatthey might be motivated to

(42:03):
perform that they don't have theopportunity to.

Speaker 1 (42:06):
Yeah, you know it's, I have a personal anecdote with
this too.
Yeah, you know it's, I have apersonal anecdote with this.
During the pandemic we adopteda dog.
It was not a rescue, but it wasan ex breeder and normally
after maybe maybe it's young,like three, four years or
something the breeders will wantto give up those dogs and so
there are agencies that willrescue them from the breeders
and so we got one.
It's a miniature schnauzer,super cute, named Pie, was

(42:30):
terrified always and had almostno behavioral diversity.
So she doesn't play Even still.
We've had her for a couple ofyears now.
It's hard to get her to play.
We've found some ways.
She'll run around and bark atthe kids when they're doing
circles around the house, butshe very much just likes to stay
in her bed and doesn't like toexplore too much.
And so Kayon walks.

(42:51):
But one thing I noticed theother day and it's kind of a
silly, maybe a biology nerd kindof or a pet lover nerd kind of
thing.
I noticed that after defecatingin the boulevard on a walk she
started to kick the back legs.
You know as dogs do startburying.
That's a very species typical,almost a fixed action pattern,

(43:16):
more or less.
Not like they're thinking aboutit, but it's just part of the
animal's behavioral repertoireand she had never done that
before and I was kind of overthe moon nothing so simple.
But I thought this is, you know,this is, for me it was like a
small victory because I feltlike something is being unlocked
, you know, in the potential ofthis animal, which you know may

(43:37):
seem small.
And I don't think my wife fullygot it when I said she's
kicking, she's burying.
Yeah, it didn't really go overthat well, but it was kind of a
nice moment for me Definitely.

Speaker 2 (43:48):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (43:49):
So opportunity to express species, typical
behaviors.
What are maybe some of theother things we might consider
then, in opportunities foroptimal health, opportunities
for choice and control.

Speaker 2 (44:01):
Yeah, so there's five opportunities total.
I'm probably going to forget acouple of them at this point.
Trying to opportunity toself-maintain.
Yeah, it's really just like Isaid really trying to give a
framework that focuses on thepositive and really raising the
bar to make sure, again, thatwe're just always looking to

(44:23):
continuously improve.

Speaker 1 (44:24):
Yeah, I want to come back to choice and control in a
moment.
But first, do you think thatthis framing has already
replaced the idea of the fivefreedoms?
Maybe in different guisesdepending on the institution,
but have we made that switch inanimal welfare?

Speaker 2 (44:40):
So when you look across the zoo and aquarium
industry again primarily lookingat accredited zoos and
aquariums I think most haveadopted a new framework, whether
it be the five domains, whichis very popular especially in
Australia, or the fiveopportunities to thrive.
But I think most facilitieshave adopted new strategies and

(45:00):
frameworks.

Speaker 1 (45:01):
Yeah, okay.
So going back to choice andcontrol, this is something that
absolutely comes up and maybelisteners out there.
When you've gone to a zoo, Ithink maybe one of the clearest
examples is you know whether theanimals have access to related
to the freedom of being able toescape or I forget the exact

(45:23):
phrasing of it but places tohide in the habitat, or you know
, to access the non-visibleparts of the environment, to be
out of the human eye, thingslike that.
What are the other kind ofexamples of providing choice to
the animals that you can thinkof?
Or maybe that Brookfield Zoo isreally big on?

Speaker 2 (45:44):
So I talked a little bit earlier about we did some
preference assessments foranimals at the San Diego Zoo
Safari Park, looking at theircarnivores, and I think zoos and
aquariums really need to startthinking more about individual
differences.
Just because it's a tigerdoesn't mean it's going to have

(46:06):
the same preferences as maybe aprevious tiger at that
institution or facility.
And so when you think aboutchoice, it's not.
Do we give the animals one ortwo objects?
It's what are the plethora ofchoices that we can give?
Are we thinking about diets?
Are we thinking aboutenrichment?
And then the thing I always liketo point out is that choice is

(46:31):
one thing, but control isactually a completely different
concept, and what we know aboutcontrol a lot of comes from the
human research field.
Back years ago there were somereally nice studies done where
they looked at giving infantscontrol over a mobile of the
crib and what they found wasthat infants that could roll

(46:53):
over and touch a button to makethe mobile light up and make
noises and stuff Um, thoseinfants had laughing and cooing
and all those fun sounds, um,throughout the entire study.
But infants that were assignedto the control group where the
mobile just went off at randomtimes.
Um, those uh infants actuallystopped that laughing and cooing

(47:17):
over time.
So it really does demonstratehow important control is, not
just for humans, but fornon-human animals as well.

Speaker 1 (47:25):
So can you put that into, maybe give a concrete
example of how you might offercontrol to an animal in a zoo or
an aquarium setting?

Speaker 2 (47:39):
So control over their environment.
So it's what makes behaviormeaningful.
So if you take away control,you're basically putting animals
in a situation of learnedhelplessness where their
behavior doesn't mean anything.
And so giving animals a choiceor the option or the ability to

(48:00):
choose different locationswithin a habitat to maintain
themselves so if it's hot outcan they find shade, If it's
cold out can they find sunlightbut, yeah, creating environments
where it really does make theirbehavior meaningful.

Speaker 1 (48:14):
Okay, okay.
So do you mind if I ask youlike, maybe, to give the
listener some idea of whatthings might be happening at
Brookfield Zoo specifically forin terms of choice and control
or even other forms ofenvironmental enrichment?

Speaker 2 (48:39):
If you could just pick, like a couple of species
and maybe provide an example ortwo of what kind of programs
would exist to kind of improvethe welfare of those animals.
So one example I can give is wehad learned of some abnormal
behavior in our gorillas and wewanted to investigate some
potential solutions, and one ofthe things that was brought to
our attention was we were theonly facility in ACA that
allowed 360 degree viewing ofour gorillas, and so we

(49:02):
conducted a research projectwhere we actually blocked off
about 75% of the viewing, andwhile we didn't see conclusive
results in terms of everythingbeing or going in a direction
that we would expect if it wasproviding a more positive
experience for the animals, wedid see some positive changes,

(49:24):
and so, from a managementstandpoint, we made the final
determination that we were goingto close it off permanently,
and from a choice perspective,it now allows our gorillas to
actually get out of view if theyhave that decision.

Speaker 1 (49:43):
It seems like it would be a difficult decision to
make.
I think you mentioned that youdidn't have any complaints
ultimately about that.
No, we did not.

Speaker 2 (49:56):
We actually put up signs saying that, based on
research and the best of ourknowledge, that this is what's
best for the animals and wedidn't receive any of you want
to be able.

Speaker 1 (50:06):
problem at the zoos the animals may be wanting to

(50:40):
have some different or have somedifferent interest than the
visitors.
So I was kind of curious.
You know how complicated thosedecisions might be.
If you learn that some aspectof whether it's the environment
itself, structure or visitoraccess, you know when you learn

(51:00):
that there may be somechallenges with that current
situation, do you think it'sBrookfield Zoo obviously showed
that they can make decisionsthat might end up being in the
animal's best interest.
But yeah, maybe more generally,like, what do you think about
those kind of conflicts betweenthe different clients of zoos?

Speaker 2 (51:17):
So we know from research that if we want to meet
our mission as a modernzoological facility, we want to
connect people to wildlife andget them excited about
conservation, and throughresearch we know the best way to
do that is to have them seeanimals up close and engaged in
a variety of species-specificbehaviors, and that's always the

(51:38):
goal.
And engaged in a variety ofspecies-specific behaviors, and
that's always the goal is tohopefully accomplish that.
However, that said, we're nevergoing to make a decision that
jeopardizes the welfare of ouranimals to meet that goal.
Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1 (51:49):
All right.
So I want to ask a couple ofquestions about how we
understand welfare, and maybeit's related to the science of
it, but the sense that I gotfrom talking with you over this
week how we understand welfareand maybe it's related to the
science of it, but the sensethat I got from talking with you
over this week and seeing youpresent about the range of
activities that you're workingon is that there's no one size
fits all measurement of animalwelfare, and you've mentioned it

(52:14):
already.
There are different referencevalues that could be
physiological, could bebehavioral, could be
morphological and, in the bestcase scenario, you would maybe
have a suite of different thingsthat you keep track of.
You know, when you're trying toassess how the animals are
doing, but at the same time, forvarious reasons human resources

(52:37):
, budget limitations it's notreally possible to have all of
them, this whole smorgasbord allthe time, and so I wonder if
you can comment on how should wethink about prioritizing, what
kinds of assessment tools weshould be using and how species
specific should that be?
Or are there things that applymore generally that you could,

(53:00):
you know, kind of use across theboard?

Speaker 2 (53:02):
It's a great question .
So, yeah, I mean it's alwaysconsidered best practice to use
a suite of indicators of welfare.
There's no one thing that cananswer all of your questions.
Basically, in terms ofprioritizing, it really probably
does come down to the speciesthat you're looking at.
While looking at physiology isalways a good thing, it can get

(53:24):
very expensive very quicklyunfortunately.
So if you can find behavioralcorrelates of different
physiological markers, that youcan just look at behavior
instead of looking at physiology, that might be a good approach
to take.
Do you have?
examples of that so one of thethings we've been looking at is
behavioral diversity as anindicator of welfare and

(53:47):
consistently we find indirectrelationships with cortisol or
the cortisol to DHEA ratio.
So behavioral diversity may bea good solution to not having to
run endocrine values, but, thatsaid, I would always run
endocrine if I have the money tobe able to do so, and not just
rely on the behavior.

Speaker 1 (54:06):
Right, okay, yeah, it seems like a big ask to be able
to get all of the kinds ofinformation you want, and maybe
it's a good place to be thinkingabout enrichment as well.
In my experience and I've reada fair amount of papers in the
kind of zoo biology literature,both in, you know, standard

(54:27):
peer-reviewed journals, but alsothe gray literature, and you
have a lot I mean, there's somany people invested, I think,
in the quality of life ofanimals at places like zoos and
aquariums, and so there's a lotof kind of experimentation and
just trying to find differentways of doing things.
But what you often find is, youknow, maybe those programs are
short-lived, you know, maybethey're not done to rigorous

(54:49):
scientific standard.
So a lot of and in your case,with the gorillas you just
mentioned, the results you gotfrom after closing off 75% of
the area for viewing were notconclusively like.
This is you know what'shappening and so I wonder in in
for animal welfare.
It's kind of like a I guess wecan call it a crisis discipline,

(55:11):
in the same way you would callconservation a crisis discipline
where of course, you try andcreate the environments that are
sufficient and allow animals tothrive, but at the same time,
you're constantly trying toupdate them to satisfy new
knowledge that you get in newsituations.
So you are constantly trying torespond to these things that

(55:31):
you observe and it's very muchan applied science and the
results should be somehowactionable.
And so I wonder if you canmaybe comment on what do you do
with inconclusive results?
How do you decide when someintervention is not only
sufficient but looks like it'sgoing to do a lot of heavy
lifting towards improving thequality of life?

Speaker 2 (55:54):
I think we always want to err on the side of
caution.
So, in the case of the gorillastudy, while all the results
weren't going in the directionthat we would have expected if
it was a positive change for theanimals, the fact that we did
see some things change we erredon the side of caution and made
the permanent solution, and Ithink zoos and aquariums.
I think that's the approachthat zoos and aquariums need to

(56:17):
take.

Speaker 1 (56:17):
I think that's the approach that zoos and aquariums
need to take, until we can finda perfect solution, going with
what's best at that time iswhat's going to be best for the
animals.
So I wonder if you could talk alittle bit about behavioral
stereotypy.
So this is probably most of thelisteners will be familiar with
it.
You've all seen polar bearspacing back and forth in their

(56:38):
habitat as a sign of a kind ofresponse to some kind of
stressor.
We just came from the JapanMonkey Center this morning where
we looked at some of theanimals doing stereotypical
head-rolling behavior, forexample.
And it's just something that avisitor to a zoo is you know,
not everywhere, but it's commonenough that probably most people
have seen it and from a zoo isyou know, not everywhere, but

(56:58):
it's common enough that probablymost people have seen it.
And from a scientificperspective, and I think for a
zoo management perspective, nothaving those behaviors is better
than having them, because theytypically indicate that at least
something could be improved,depending, of course, on the
history of the individual thatyou have.
But also, having stereotypicalbehaviors doesn't necessarily

(57:21):
mean that the animals doing themare in the worst possible
condition.
So how should we currentlythink about stereotypical
behavior when we see it?

Speaker 2 (57:30):
So stereotypic behavior is not always linked to
a negative situation.
I think we still have a lot tolearn about stereotypic behavior
in general, but I think theimportant take home is that
anytime you have an animalengaged in stereotypic behavior,
trying to figure out the rootcause or what's the motivation
or what's driving that behaviorand sometimes it might be that

(57:54):
the animal had a poordevelopment early on in life and
there could be nothingabsolutely wrong in their
current environment.
So just having an understandingthat it's not always linked to
a negative situation, but alwaystrying to figure out if the
behavior that you're observingis happening because of the
current situation.

Speaker 1 (58:15):
I remember.
So I teach this zoo biologyclass to undergraduates at Kyoto
University and one of the dayswe have a practical exercise at
Kyoto City Zoo and, you know,often the students are
confronted with animals thatwould be engaging in some form
of stereotypy, some form ofstereotypy.

(58:40):
And I've received comments fromstudents who at that point have
already had like two full daysof discussions and lectures
about.
You know so much about zoos andfacilities and science behind
what's happening there and theethics, and they often are
listening to the comments of thegeneral public, and so there
was an elephant that engages in,sometimes engages in some
stereotypical head bobbing.
That's one of the types ofstereotypies that elephants can

(59:02):
develop.
And listening to a family orsomething you know next to them,
the student noticed that theywere you know the kind of
comments that were being made bythe family was kind of negative
in the sense that, oh, that's acrazy elephant or something you
know like, in the sense that,oh, that's a crazy elephant or
something you know like.
So it seems like it can havesome negative influence on the
visitor's perception as well.

(59:23):
And so I wonder about education, educating visitors like how
much focus should zoos have on?
And this is should or shouldn't, but maybe the open question of
do you think it's reallyimportant to talk to the public
about these kinds of behaviorsin a way that helps them
understand the problem well,that itself might kind of change

(59:46):
the way they view having thoseanimals there.

Speaker 2 (59:50):
Yeah.
So one of the easiest studiesI've ever done in my life.
We recorded 10 second videoclips of a tiger pacing and a
tiger resting in the exact samelocation.
So exact same animal, exactsame location within the habitat
.
Just the change in the behavior, and we randomly assigned
people to watch one of the twovideos.
And seeing a tiger pace for 10seconds in a video significantly

(01:00:12):
reduced their perception of thelevel of care and welfare that
that animal received, but also,importantly, it reduced their
interest in getting involved inconservation.
And so for zoos to meet theirmission and get people excited
about conservation again,stereotypic behavior is not
always linked to a negativesituation, but anytime visitors

(01:00:35):
see that it can have a negativeimpact on your mission.

Speaker 1 (01:00:37):
But anytime visitors see that it can have a negative
impact on your mission.
Just that description of thatstudy made me wonder if you have
any pet studies that you'vedone that you find really
fascinating or fun to have doneat the moment.

Speaker 2 (01:00:56):
So you've talked about a few of years ago where
we looked at what's thedifference between an in-person
experience versus a videoexperience, and so we randomly
sampled, from our membership atthe Brookfield Zoo, the
household members and asked themif they'd be willing to
participate in a study.

(01:01:18):
And people were assigned to oneof three conditions.
The first condition was theygot to sit in front of a glass
window and have an up-closepersonal experience with a polar
bear training session.
We recorded those sessions andgroup two got to see a video of
the exact same thing.
And group three was our controland they stared at a picture of

(01:01:38):
one of our animal care staffmembers and got to hear the same
audio.
And what we found was that thein-person experience people
retained more knowledge, theyhad a better experience overall,
they had more empathy towardswild polar bears and they were
more excited about gettinginvolved in conservation
compared to the control.
And we didn't see any of thosesame changes with the video.

(01:01:58):
So it was just kind of aone-off, kind of fun little
study, but important todemonstrate that those in-person
experiences, those up-closeexperiences, are really what's
important from a zoologicalmission standpoint.

Speaker 1 (01:02:10):
Yeah, you hear that a lot.
I think people and I thinkwe've experienced I feel like
I've experienced that myself.
I mean, as an animal scientistand wildlife biologist, I feel
like my early experience isgoing to places like zoos were
probably shaping.
You know this kind of interestI have in wildlife, but I don't

(01:02:32):
have a counterfactual and Ithink one of the challenges zoos
have is communicating orfollowing or tracking the
behavior of those individualsafter they've left the zoo,
Right?
So do you, what is yourperspective on that?
Do you think that these, whetherthey're self reports of
behavior change or more interestin conservation and welfare

(01:02:59):
welfare or do you think?
There's a study that I oftenteach my zoology students is
about the don't palm us offcampaign that was done in
Australia for trying to raiseawareness about oil palm and the
destruction of rainforests inBorneo and Sumatra to conserve
or to help conservation oforangutans, and they did some
really impressive follow-ups andit seemed like there was some

(01:03:23):
long-term impacts.
But a lot of it's self-reported, so it's hard to access whether
or not people's behavior doeschange, and so I wonder if you
have any ideas about that or howshould we be thinking about
that?

Speaker 2 (01:03:37):
It is really difficult because obviously you
can't follow people around andsee if they actually change
their behavior.
So most of it is based onself-report.
So for some of my graduate workwe looked at the impact of
dolphin education programs theDolphin Shows, dolphin
interaction programs and whatthe impact was on people.
In short term we saw increasesin knowledge, attitudes and

(01:04:01):
interest in conservation.
And then we actually did athree-month follow-up to see if
any of their behaviors hadchanged.
And again, it's self-reported,but they did report in engaging
in more conservation-relatedbehaviors three months following
the program.
So I think we have we have togo with what we have.

(01:04:22):
I mean, like I said, we can'tfollow people around and see if
they're actually changing theirbehavior, and I would like to
hope that people are beinghonest when they report that
they are doing these thingsbased on what we're trying to
accomplish.

Speaker 1 (01:04:34):
It was funny we did a .
I had an intern here some yearsago and she was very passionate
about conservation,biodiversity and we set her up
doing some visitor surveys atthe Japan Monkey Center with in
collaboration with the staffthere At the time that they were
doing the slow lorisconservation program.
They had.
They have a bunch ofconfiscated slow lorises for

(01:04:57):
confiscated from the pet tradein Japan.
Unfortunately, japan is a placewhere having slow lorises as a
pet is still relatively popular,so we have this problem.
But the Japan Monkey Centercollected a bunch of them and
then created this conservationcenter where they could take
people on a tour so they wouldhave a lecture first in the
lecture hall and then move tothe area where the animals were

(01:05:17):
being housed and they would getthis, you know, guided tour by
the keeping staff and learnabout the conservation.
And so we wanted to piggyback onthat and do a little visitor
study about kind of conservationknowledge in general, species,
typical knowledge and knowledgeabout primates.
And so we had that, thosecontrol groups of people who
were on the tour and who werenot on the tour and just looking

(01:05:38):
at these differences.
But the one thing we had hopedto do was have a follow-up study
.
So we had the plan three monthslater to do a follow-up, but
the total number of participantswe had was in the range of 100
to 200.
And in our follow-up surveys wehad an end of two and in our

(01:05:59):
follow-up surveys we had an N oftwo.
And so, yeah, I know fromfirsthand experience it's very
hard to track, because oncepeople leave the gates it may be
out of mind as well.

Speaker 2 (01:06:08):
Yeah, it can be extremely difficult.
First is getting email addressor phone number or whatever it
is to be able to do thatfollow-up work, but then
actually having them respond toyou is a whole other beast, yeah
.

Speaker 1 (01:06:21):
I guess if you have membership it might be a bit
easier for people who are.
You can tap into the kind ofmembership that you have.

Speaker 2 (01:06:27):
Yeah, I mean for, like the Brookfield Zoo's,
family memberships are a greatresource in terms of collecting
information, but that doesn'tgive you the full perspective of
the non-visitor or thenon-membership.

Speaker 1 (01:06:42):
Yeah, and the non-visitor, of course, which is
even less likely to be.
Yeah, so many different spheresthat are hard to access.
So maybe just to kind of gettowards closing this interview
out, I wanted to ask you aboutAZA and WAZA because one because

(01:07:06):
you've been involved for manyyears and working on developing
some programs through it Ibelieve by the end of 2023, wasa
has kind of mandated that allmembers have in place some kind
of animal welfare monitoring andassessment strategy or protocol
as a way to ensure that we'reall having due diligence.

(01:07:32):
Maybe it'll look differentdepending on the institution
they're at, but at least itseems like those accrediting and
organizing organizations that'sa funny word to put back to
back yeah, accrediting or kindof higher level institutions
seem to be putting like a bigfocus on this at the moment, and

(01:07:54):
so maybe you could talk aboutthat.
So first, this mandate for WASAin 2023 and kind of how you,
through AZA, are thinking aboutexpanding or improving how that
can be done across institutions.

Speaker 2 (01:08:08):
Yeah, so it's a pretty ambitious goal, but all
member associations of WASA bythe end of 2023, need to have a
welfare monitoring program inplace, and so it's all being
approved by WASA.
So, like I said, a veryambitious project, but
critically important so that wecan hopefully guarantee, or

(01:08:30):
hopefully ensure, that allfacilities are doing what's best
for the animals under theirprofessional care are doing
what's best for the animalsunder their professional care.
Back in 2017, aza made itmandatory for all AZA member
institutions to have a welfaremonitoring program.
Now, all of these facilitiesaren't required to do exactly

(01:08:52):
the same thing.
It's up to them to decidewhat's best based on the
resources that they haveavailable to them, but I think
it's critical that zoo andaquariums continue to move
forward on this front.

Speaker 1 (01:09:04):
So what kind of activities are you specifically
involved in through AZA for thatpurpose?

Speaker 2 (01:09:10):
So, right now.
I am currently an advisor tothe Animal Welfare Committee for
AZA and I'm also on the Boardof Ethics and Animal Welfare for
WASA.

Speaker 1 (01:09:23):
Okay, Okay, and so do you see.
I think AZA recently just had acall for a couple of new animal
welfare specialists.
How big is AZA as anorganization like staffed?

Speaker 2 (01:09:38):
I don't know the exact number to, to be honest,
off the top of my head, butwithin the conservation and
animal welfare side of things,they've got multiple staff.
Most recently they hired twopositions which are calling.
I don't know the exact titles,but they're focused on animal
wellbeing and those twopositions will focus entirely on
that which really does raisethe bar for AZA issues.

Speaker 1 (01:10:21):
That surrounds conservation work based on
ex-situ conservation work andits interaction with in-situ
conservation work, but the ideathat we can or should keep small
populations at places like zoosand aquariums for genetics
management, to increasepopulation size as a
metapopulation that caneventually, if needed, move back
into natural habitats.
So the ethics behind this areabout species preservation, but

(01:10:47):
while you have the animals there, welfare is also really
important.
However, sometimes you put andthis is where maybe rights
versus welfare is pitteddirectly against each other.
So let's take the example ofthe black-footed ferret
conservation work, whereblack-footed ferrets are
carnivores.
So in order to train them to beable to be successful wild

(01:11:08):
black-footed ferrets, they haveto learn how to hunt, and to
learn how to hunt in anenvironment that's provided by
places like zoos, you would haveto provide the prey, and so
that's often marmots or prairiedogs or animals of that nature,

(01:11:29):
and so you have this directcompetition.
Competition is the wrong word,but you're putting the value of
one life over the value ofanother for species preservation
.
So if you were, let's say, apure animal rights side, all
being equal, if you're like apure utilitarian, then that

(01:11:50):
would not necessarily be soacceptable because you're
sacrificing one for the good ofthe other.
I'm not sure how it fits in withwelfare.
Maybe life no life is not thedistinguishing character from a
welfare perspective, as long asyou're providing good welfare
opportunities for the animalwhen it's alive.

(01:12:11):
But this is a super long way ofasking you how do you think
about that interplay between theethics around zoos for
conservation and for animalrights and welfare Welfare,
sorry, in context like that, ordo you think about that much?
I don't know if it's somethingthat you're involved with in any

(01:12:31):
way, so yeah, so.

Speaker 2 (01:12:33):
I've never worked with black-footed ferrets so I
really couldn't comment on thatspecifically.
But from an animal welfarestandpoint, anytime we are using
live prey, in any situation,whether it's part of a
conservation, reintroductionprogram or not, you want to make
sure that even that live preyhas the best life possible until

(01:12:56):
the time that it becomes prey,and so that's kind of how we
look at it.

Speaker 1 (01:13:01):
This has become really interesting to me because
there's also this emergingphilosophy of compassionate
conservation, the idea that eventhough we're working towards
the conservation of some species, which may have negative
impacts on others, workingtowards the conservation of some
species which may have negativeimpacts on others, maybe you

(01:13:25):
should keep that in mind so thatwe're valuing equally the lives
of all the species that areinvolved in some interaction,
which seems quite complicated,and my group has recently
started working on invasivespecies in an island in southern
Japan.
Invasive raccoon dogs andraccoon dogs are kind of an
iconic animal in Japan.
You see them kind of everywherein the places where they're
native and they've become theseporcelain kind of statues

(01:13:48):
outside of restaurants, pattingtheir bellies, as you know, kind
of welcoming and signs of goodfood.
But in places where they may beinvasive they're actually quite
destructive.
So they compete with localcarnivores.
They prey, predate on variousother birds, mammals, reptiles,
amphibians, many of themendangered.
And so people who care aboutconservation are often the same

(01:14:14):
people that care about animalwelfare or dabble into animal
rights.
You said earlier that people whowork in zoos might be in the
middle of the spectrum on animalrights because you care deeply
about the animals, but you'renot going as far as to say none
should ever be in anywhereexcept where they naturally
belong.
I guess maybe the main questionthat comes out of that is how

(01:14:37):
could or how should a zoo and itwould be related to when you do
live feeding, because a lot ofpeople, a lot of the public,
won't appreciate live feedings.
Maybe they can stomach havingfish fed to tigers or to otters
or to penguins, even live fish,but as soon as you bring out a
bunny to feed to some largecarnivore, I think a lot of

(01:14:59):
people, that's where they woulddraw the line.
And so we naturally put somekind of value on certain species
over others.
We tend, I think, to do thatand maybe things that are closer
to us, we might feel morecomfortable with mammals than
birds, birds than reptiles, thatsort of reptiles than

(01:15:22):
amphibians.
I'm not sure, but I wonder ifthere's a place for zoos to help
us think about the ethics ofhow humans and animals interact.

Speaker 2 (01:15:33):
I think, the role zoos can play in terms of
thinking about wildlife is theability to celebrate all
wildlife, so not just thecharismatic megata fauna, but
what about the cockroaches?
So I think that's where zooscan play a critical role in
terms of really helping ourvisitors to connect with all

(01:15:53):
species of wildlife.

Speaker 1 (01:15:55):
So are you saying that the next exhibit at
Brookfield Zoo is going to bethe cockroach?

Speaker 2 (01:15:58):
We already have one.
You've got them.
Yeah, Hissing cockroaches there.
They're pretty popular with allspecies of wildlife.

Speaker 1 (01:16:02):
So are you saying that the next exhibit at
Brookfield Zoo is going to bethe cockroach?
We already have one.
You've got them.
Yeah, hissing cockroaches there, they're pretty popular, right,
yeah, yeah.
And how do you do you know?
Have you seen people'sreactions to them?
I personally have not.
Okay, it's maybe a tough sellfor some people, but fascinating
, fascinating animal.
Well, lance, is there anythingthat maybe you want to add on or

(01:16:24):
something you want to bring upthat we haven't covered before?
We kind of shut this down.

Speaker 2 (01:16:26):
I don't think so.

Speaker 1 (01:16:28):
It's pretty wide-ranging there.
Covered a lot, okay, well,thank you so much for joining me
on the PrimiCast.

Speaker 2 (01:16:35):
Thank you for having me.