Transforming Science Engagement: Amanda Mathieson on the Power of Escape Rooms and Playful Learning

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In this episode of The PrimateCast, your host sits down with science communicator Amanda Mathieson, Head of Public Engagement, Education and Communications at Biorbic, Ireland's National Bioeconomy Research Centre.

She's also a pioneer in the space of developing STEM-themed escape rooms. And that was the main topic of discussion in the interview.

Throughout the episode, Amanda offers insightful anecdotes and creative ideas that reveal the potential of escape rooms as educational tools. We uncover the nuances of designing these immersive settings, from overcoming teamwork challenges to incorporating actors to enhance the experience. 

About STEM-themed escape rooms, Amanda notes in the interview that, "It really levels the playing field… Gives people a chance to excel at something that is science based but they might think, ‘oh wow, I did that, I beat that, even though I don’t think of myself as a sciency person'."

In an article she coauthored in the journal Research for All, Amanda writes that, "In an engagement scenario, perceived learning may be more valuable than actual learning, as this relates to self-efficacy and the likelihood of continued engagement.”

Amanda paints a vivid picture of how these innovative approaches can promote a love for science and encourage critical thinking, making learning an enjoyable adventure for all ages.

During the pandemic, Amanda also started her own podcast, conversing with science communicators in different fields and exploring how people can get into such roles. We touched on Amanda's own career path in the interview, but to learn more about the field and some of the people in it, check out that limited series podcast here.

In addition to her role at Biorbic, Amanda is also Coordinator of the STEAM Summer School, which provides practical training in communicating science through the arts.

And, she is currently working toward her doctorate at University College Dublin’s Earth Institute, where she studies “play”. We end the interview with a discussion of learning through video games like Age of Empires, and board games like Pandemic and Daybreak. 

As Amanda notes in closing, we all need to play more! And if we can do a little learning at the same time? Well, all the better.

Photo Credit: Amanda Mathieson.

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Episode Transcript

Andrew MacIntosh (00:00):
After the tune , a conversation with Amanda
Matheson of Biorbic on escaperooms for science, communication
and engagement.
Conservation BehaviorPrimatology.

(00:24):
Primatology Typically, primatesBecome the monkey.
Hey everyone and welcome to thePrimateCast.
I'm your host, andrew McIntoshof the Weiler Institute, calgary
Zoo, and for this podcast it'smy job to chat with experts in
primatology, wildlife scienceand beyond and share their
stories with you.

(00:45):
Before getting into today'sshow, I want to take a moment to
thank Ryzam and Sleuts.
That's with a dollar sign atthe end there to indicate
something I can only guess at.
Sorry about that, but they eachleft comments about the show
Posting on Spotify.
Ryzam says an excellent podcastfrom an excellent, verbose and
well-read human being.
Looking forward to seeinghearing what the new iteration

(01:07):
of the podcast looks and soundslike.
I'll take that verbose commentas a compliment rather than a
veiled criticism, but you and meboth in the future of the show
there and Sloot$ adds on ApplePodcasts always fantastic guests
, well-spoken and informed hoststhoroughly enjoy the podcast.
For many reasons I love it andI couldn't agree more about the

(01:29):
guests.
They're absolutely the reason ashow like this can exist and I
have a large amount of gratitudefor their time and willingness
to share their stories with me.
So thanks to you both forsharing those reassuring
comments and I'm looking forwardto reading and seeing more from
you out there in the days andweeks to come.
So if you're listening, pleaseget out there and post something

(01:49):
about the show.
And, while you're at it, ifyou're able to, I'd be extremely
appreciative of your financialsupport as well, either through
a small donation or a low feemonthly membership.
You can find links in thepodcast show notes or on the
website at eithertheprimatecastcom or
theprimatecastinfo.
But it's because of supporterslike you that the Primate Cast
can have an exciting future, butI do need your help to keep

(02:11):
sharing these informational andinspirational stories with the
world, so I sincerely thank youfor all your support.
Now to the interview.
Today's conversation is goingto be with Biorbic's Head of
Public Engagement, education andCommunications.
Going to be with Biorbic's Headof Public Engagement, education
and Communications, amandaMatheson.

(02:32):
I met Amanda in November 2023at the annual Japan SciComm
Forum Conference that year.
For anyone who's interested,you can check out the JSF
website at japanscicom to learnmore about what they do.
But their annual conference isa great chance for science
communicators in Japan to gettogether and share their
activities, all in English.
I was invited that year to givea workshop on podcasting for
science communication at theevent.

(02:53):
I've done a lot of publicspeaking in my time, teaching at
universities, presenting atacademic conferences.
I was recently even joking witha coworker about the time I
filled in for a MIA auctioneerto sell art at a Canadian Parks
and Wilderness Gala in supportof nature protection.
I'd even run or co-run ascience communication workshop

(03:14):
for grad students at KyotoUniversity for something like 12
or 13 years, but this was thefirst time I'd represented the
Primae cast and shared tips andtricks for science podcasting
with a group of sciencecommunicators.
I had so much fun there and Ithink what really stands out
about science communicators ingeneral is just how important we
all think sharing ourexcitement for science is with

(03:36):
the public.
And it kind of helped that2023's conference was also based
in Okinawa, at the OkinawanInstitute for Science and
Technology or OIST, and that wasjust such an incredible setting
for the event.
But Amanda was there visitingJapan from her home in Ireland
and she gave a reallystimulating talk.
It was a lightning talk, soquite short on science escape

(03:57):
rooms.
I fell in love with that idearight away and made a point of
inviting her on the show to talkmore about it In addition to
her role at Biorbic, which, bythe way, she'll introduce in the
interview so I won't introducenow.
Amanda is also a coordinator forSTEAM Summer School, which
produces or sorry, providespractical training in
communicating science to thearts, and it's based in Malta

(04:19):
Again, like really incrediblesetting there, if you check out
their website.
But she's also currently doinga PhD on play at University
College Dublin's Earth Institute.
So Amanda's had a reallyinteresting career path and I
wanted to flush that out a bitin the conversation to help any
aspiring science communicatorsfind their way forward.
But I really think that theidea of escape rooms

(04:41):
specifically for scienceengagement is brilliant,
especially now that I'm based atan organization that's
literally for communicatingscience to the public and, of
course, doing a lot ofincredible conservation work.
But in an article that Amandapublished in the journal
Research for All, titled STEMEscape Rooms for Public
Engagement, she writes that inan engagement scenario,

(05:02):
perceived learning may be morevaluable than actual learning,
and this relates toself-efficacy and the likelihood
of continued engagement.
I love this quote and the ideathat how we feel about our
engagement with scientificinformation can be so powerful
in whether we're likely toengage with such information in
the future.
The goal is obviously to worktoward a more scientifically

(05:24):
literate society, and Amandanotes that in the interview her
real motivation is not so muchto teach people about scientific
facts but to help them becomemore scientific thinkers, to
look at the world through ascientific lens that will help
them discern the world aroundthem in a more critical way.
We do land on, of course, someof the specific science-themed

(05:45):
escape rooms that she's beenpart of, that she's designed,
helped design and implement, andyou're really going to want to
hear about those and no doubtyou'll want to participate as
well.
But for that you'll have tolook Amanda up yourself or find
a science-themed escape roomnear you.
Maybe a primatologically-themedone is on the horizon somewhere
out there.
Primatologists, help me outhere.
Just promise me it won't haveany hyper-aggressive,

(06:07):
head-smashing gray gorillas likethe ones rampaging around the
lost city of Zinj in MichaelCrichton's Congo.
By the way, that's for Ryzam, ifyou're out there listening.
Thanks again for the comment.
But Amanda also talks moregenerally about her role or the
role of play in science,engagement more generally, even
learning, through video gameslike Age of Empires and board
games like Pandemic or Daybreak.

(06:29):
She leaves us with a bit of ateaser about the results of her
PhD work which she's piloting,by the way in early 2025.
So maybe a round two interviewis definitely in the cards.
In the meantime, here's myconversation with science escape
room pioneer Amanda MathesonCan you just tell me what is
BioOrbic?

Amanda Mathieson (06:49):
Yeah, that's a good question.
So BioOrbic is a researchcenter focused around the
bioeconomy.
So instead of being a physicalcenter that's based in one
location, we're actually acenter that's focused around one
topic.
So we bring togetherresearchers from all across
ireland um under this one topicand the idea is that, you know,

(07:10):
if researchers are working kindof in different institutions but
on the same thing, they'remaybe not talking to each other
as well as they could be.
So our center gives them anopportunity to collaborate much
more cohesively um so that itcan catalyse those big issues.
So our topic is bioeconomy,which most people haven't heard

(07:31):
of.
The word bioeconomy it's an oldconcept but it's becoming
increasingly important.
So what the bioeconomy is?
It's basically all the parts ofthe economy that rely on
biological resources, so plants,animals, microbes, basically
all the parts of the economythat rely on biological
resources.
So plants, animals, microbes,and obviously right now our
economy is very petrochemical,so we're heavily dependent on

(07:52):
fossil fuels and most peoplethink that's just fuel,
transport and maybe plastics.
They might think of that, butactually it's so much more than
that.
There's solvents, dyes it's inour cleaning agents, it's in our
um, let me think plastic fibersin our clothes and rubber,
glues it's basically ineverything.

(08:13):
If you were to look at itaround this room right now,
you'd be really hard pressed tofind something that doesn't have
a petrochemical component in it, and so that's why we really
need a bioeconomy.
So obviously we need to rely onthe bioeconomy for traditional
things like agriculture, maybemedicines, building materials
and so on, but the more we cantransition away from those

(08:37):
petrochemical components tobiological ones things like
bioplastic the easier it will beto move away from fossil fuels.
So the bioeconomy is big.
It's kind of the new economy,if you like.
It's the old economy in a way,but it's also what we need to go
back to and develop into a neweconomy as well.

Andrew MacIntosh (08:57):
What is the kind of historical placement of
that in Ireland, for example?
So I mean, are there specifictopics within bioeconomy that
are more a focal point for yourinstitution, for the country,
and what are the kind of likeinternational trends as well,
and is there a lot ofcollaboration between?
Is it UCD?
I guess would be the right wayto say yes, yes, so University
College.

Amanda Mathieson (09:17):
Dublin.
Ucd is our host institution, somost of the operations team of
our research center is based inUCD.
We have a lot of researchers inUCD, but then we have
researchers in all the otherinstitutions across Ireland and
we connect them together kind ofvirtually, which obviously they
meet in person and so on.
And then the other question interms of Ireland and its kind of

(09:40):
part that it plays in thebioeconomy Ireland has a really
strong agricultural industry.
Um, it also has a lot of marinearea around it and so the
marine industry is quite good aswell.
And Ireland actually produces alot of, um, food and
agricultural products.
So Ireland, I think, exports90% of its food, so it's a big

(10:04):
exporter.
So in a way, ireland's in areally good position to develop
a bioeconomy because we've gotso much in terms of natural
resources that we can rely on,we've got the infrastructure
there.
So if we were to think ofsomewhere that could develop
these products take the waste,say, from the agricultural

(10:24):
processes and turn that into,you know, glues, dyes, paints,
whatever it might be thenIreland has that wealth of
resources as well.
So I guess that's whybioeconomy is such a big focus
in Ireland, but the bioeconomyis kind of developing everywhere
.
If you kind of look online, youcan see there's now a policy
map of countries that eitherhave a policy on about

(10:48):
bioeconomy policy statement orum.
They're developing one um andit's it's kind of growing,
definitely in europe, definitelyin america, um.
So yeah, it's, it's, it'sdefinitely the future, is is
where it was headed, yeah okay.

Andrew MacIntosh (11:03):
So I kind of brought you on the primary cast
so we could talk about somethingthat I I learned about you at a
recent conference in okinawa,at the japan sci-com forum 2023,
which is about escape rooms inin science.
Yes, that that'll be like theteaser we'll get to that in a
minute, but I kind of want towork a little bit uh of the way
towards that.
So in you, um, as far as Iunderstand it, you have a

(11:27):
background in sciencecommunication.

Amanda Mathieson (11:29):
Yes.

Andrew MacIntosh (11:29):
But maybe you can.
So bioeconomy is now kind ofwhere you're sitting at the
moment in your current role.
But what was your kind ofpathway to becoming a science
communicator and what interestedyou about that?

Amanda Mathieson (11:39):
Yeah, so I actually I did plant science as
an undergraduate and what reallyinterested me about plant
science is there was only sevenpeople on the course, like there
was biology, zoology, you knowthere's like 80 people, and then
plant science was like sevenand there was a lot of plant
scientists in the university.
So it was like the ratio of youknow teaching stuff to students

(12:02):
was really good and you knowthere's lots of jobs
opportunities as well.
So that's why I kind of gotinto it.
But then what I realized was,as I was studying plant science,
whenever somebody would ask mewhat I was studying and I would
say plant science, they'd belike oh so what do you do with
that?
Is that gardening or what is itfor?
And I was like wow, I mean onlyeverything like food, fuel,

(12:27):
building materials, the oxygenyou're breathing right now, like
everything.

Andrew MacIntosh (12:31):
You know it's ironic because I have a similar
story.
But it's like why do you wantto be a primatologist?

Amanda Mathieson (12:37):
What are you going to do with that Like when
are you?

Andrew MacIntosh (12:38):
going to grow up.
I don't really have as manygreat answers as that.

Amanda Mathieson (12:42):
Right right have as many great answers as
that right.

Andrew MacIntosh (12:44):
They don't give us the oxygen we breathe.
I'm sure we could think of somecool things they do, like
dispersing the seeds for theplants that you might be really
interested in.
Yeah, yeah, and obviously wecame from them, so well, of
course we have the humanconnection, exactly, yeah, so
really, really important.

Amanda Mathieson (12:57):
But yeah, it just kind of like shocked me how
, how much of a disconnect therewas and that made me really
interested in communicating moreabout science.
Because I thought, you know,people need to understand this
connection a little bit more andunderstand more about where
things come from and theirenvironment and so on.
Just yeah, people need to bemore engaged with science.

(13:17):
I felt like so when I finishedmy undergraduate there was
either the option to do a PhD insomething science-related and
I'd be stuck in a lab, which isnot really where I find suits me
very well, or I could go outand talk to people about science
.
So I kind of took on acommunications role in a

(13:38):
hospital for a while.
But then Manchester Universityof Manchester, which is where I
did my undergraduate theyactually started their first
master's in sciencecommunication the following year
and I was like, great, that'sme, that's, I'll sign up for
that.
And so I did the master's inscience communication there, and
then I actually was justlooking for any job, any job

(14:01):
that was science communicationrelated.
I'd just come out of theuniversity and you know how it
is like just just give me a job,let me prove myself.
And I found this job in Malta,working with um Dr Edward Duker,
um in University of Malta anddoing um basically EU projects
that were focused on sciencecommunication, um, and it was

(14:21):
great.
There was two main projects Iworked on.
One was creations and that wasabout bringing art into the
science classroom.
So we had to there was 16countries, I think it was, and
we were all developingactivities that blended art and
science and then trialed them inschools and see if they worked
and evaluated them.

(14:41):
And then there's a list of allthese activities somewhere
online on the Creations websitenow.
So that was really interesting.
And then the other project wasSTEAM, and this was about
blending the art and science,but this time for science
communication and scienceengagement.
So there was kind of two partsto it.
One was STEAM Summer School,which is a short intensive

(15:04):
course where we trainresearchers, educators, science
communicators how to communicatetheir science through the arts.
It's very, it's kind of quitetheatre and performance based,
but basically they come to Maltaand we do this training.
But the point of STEAM is thatyou apply the learning as soon

(15:26):
as you're learning it.
So, um, we, we might do say asection on um how to design an
activity and then they'redesigning their own own activity
um, we might do a bit oncommunicating and promoting it
and then they're promoting theiractual event.
So the point is that theyarrive and within nine days they
have to deliver a performanceevent to a live, real audience.

(15:48):
That they have to, you know,somehow accumulate and and it's
really great, like it'sdefinitely intense.
People definitely get a littlebit like they're excited
initially and then they get abit stressed by like day seven,
but then it always goes reallywell.
They always have like afantastic event and it's always
a different event as well.
Like we've had theater, we'vehad um food.

(16:11):
Um, what was it like?
A food?
What do you call it now?
Um, like a food taster eveningtype thing.
Um, we had one of those.
We had like a, an alien treasurehunt where like aliens had
crashed down to earth and theyhad to, like, do this kind of um
, treasure hunt, mini escaperoom type thing, um, which was

(16:33):
great.
So, yeah, it's always reallyinteresting.
So that that's part of steam.
And then the other things I wasdoing with steam was developing
innovative activities forengagement.
So how can we use arts toreally get people engaged with
science and broaden the audienceas well, because not everybody

(16:55):
is interested in science.
But if we can kind of blend itwith things that people are
interested in, then that mightopen it up to new people who
might not be there otherwise.
So that's where I startedworking on things like escape
rooms, because escape rooms atthe time they were super popular
it was.
I was thinking it was 2016 andthey just exploded everywhere

(17:17):
and everybody was doing them andI thought, well, that would be
a really great way to to engagepeople with science, because you
know it's all puzzle based andsurely you can incorporate some
science into that.
So I thought, you know, thatmight be a way to make it fun
for people to like come and, youknow, test their skills at some
kind of science challenges in away that is interesting and has

(17:39):
a story around it and has sometheatrical elements and so yeah.
So then then yeah, so we, wedid the steam project there and
then, yeah, ever since, I'vejust been working in science
communication sorry, that's areally long-winded answer into
science communication yeah, andfrom that I'm trying to decide
whether we jump into escaperooms now or first go back a

(18:01):
little bit.

Andrew MacIntosh (18:01):
But I think I'm going to go back yeah so
I'll apologize to the peoplelistening who want to get into
the music, but uh, just I'm kindof interested in so this
master's in sciencecommunication.
Um, this was at the Universityof Manchester, but now of course
, there are degrees in sciencecommunication all over the world
yes, but what?
what was the kind of, what werethe kind of things that you
learned in that program?
Um, what was the kind of focus?

(18:22):
Did you have some opportunityto do your own projects as well
within that master's degree?
What did it actually look like?

Amanda Mathieson (18:29):
Yeah, so I will say that it was the first
year they were running it, so Ithink it's probably quite
different now.
But the place that thedepartment that ran the science
communication master's inUniversity of Manchester was the
Centre for History of Science,technology and Medicine, so they
had.
The teaching staff there werequite well versed in science

(18:51):
history.
So actually we learned a lotabout science history, funnily
enough.
So there were a lot of modulesabout that which I guess wasn't
really as what I expected.
It wasn't something thatinterested me as much.
It was great, great stuff.
But I wanted to focus more onthe the practical side.
But there was then one modulethat was more around science

(19:16):
communication theory and thatgot very into social science
studies, which for somebodywho'd come from a kind of a
standard science backgroundexperimental science, you know
life sciences it was definitelya transition.
You know, going from you knowhere's your method, your results
, your analysis, to here's along-winded like eight-page,

(19:40):
like monologue of my theories.
That was definitely a challengeto transition, transition to
but I think it's nice to to kindof experience both.
Yeah, um, and then we did havesome um more practical sessions
where they brought in, say,people who worked in a museum to
talk about that.
They brought, brought in ajournalist to talk about that

(20:03):
and we had um, a final um.
You could either do a paperlike a, a dissertation, or you
could do a project, and becauseI'm very practical, I was like I
want to do a project.
I think I did a documentaryseries about fracking, which was
quite in the news at the timeand I wanted to really explore
it from an unbiased perspective,like in my head, I was very

(20:27):
anti-fracking, but I kind ofwanted to put that aside and
explore, well, what's actuallythe real science here, what are
the pros and cons?
You know, completely taking thepolitics out of it and present
that to the audience to say,look, here's the facts.
Now you make up your own mind.
You know, I'm not here to tellyou what to think, I'm just

(20:49):
telling you what we'vediscovered, um, in in this
documentary.
So that was my, my project, forthat, yeah did it?

Andrew MacIntosh (20:56):
was it?
Did it stay private or have youtried to distribute that?
It's your one of your firstpsycom endeavors?

Amanda Mathieson (21:03):
I think it's on youtube somewhere.
Um, I'm not sure if it'sprivate or, at the very least,
unlisted, but it's definitely onyoutube somewhere like if
people are interested, I coulddefinitely make it unprivatized,
I'm sure at this point, um, infact, like I talked to three
different academics, um, and I'msure they would be more than

(21:24):
happy because they signed up forme to like be doing a
documentary that could promotetheir research.

Andrew MacIntosh (21:28):
So yeah, yeah, okay, well, yeah, maybe we'll
have to unearth that then in theshow notes of this podcast at
some point.
Um.
So the theme that that seems tobe coming up here is you're
very interested in getting kindof practical with this science
communication and, you know,reaching different kinds of
targets.
So maybe that's the segue intothe escape room idea.
But when I saw you present atthis um Japan SciComm Forum in

(21:53):
November, uh, it was somethingthat I hadn't thought of ever.
I hadn't come across that idea.
So it was initially just reallydrawn to it, thinking wow, what
a, what a wonderful idea,basically because, as you said,
it was so popular.
I have done one escape room inmy life.
Oh yay, it was for a stag nightfor a friend in Tokyo, and yeah

(22:17):
, it was I don't remember thename of the place, but one place
in Tokyo.
And you know spoiler alert wedidn't get out, we didn't escape
and I felt, you know,intellectually damaged.
After that, thinking, here'ssomebody coming?
from Kills University.
You know, maybe I should upholdthe reputation of the school
and ace this thing.
I did contribute but yeah, inthe end we didn't quite make it.

(22:37):
But it was neat.
It was kind of more historical,like very Japan themed.
You know, some of theactivities were piecing together
this samurai armor to learnsome kung fu in one of the doors
.
Um, so we were kind of in thisdusty library type room and and
and that was really fun, but, uh, it hadn't occurred to me that
this would also be a great wayto engage people in, you know,

(23:00):
topics that you want to exposethem to, like science.
So, um, maybe you can kind ofwalk us through.
You already started the storyof thinking this was an
explosion of escape room aroundthe world, and while you thought
the same thing, it would be agreat idea to push some science
themes in there.
So what was the process then ofthinking about that and
actually making something happen?
What was your very firstscience escape room?

Amanda Mathieson (23:19):
Yeah, so I will jump into that.
But I just wanted to also touchon what you said.
Said about you were thinking oh, you know, I work at university
, I should be able to beat thisescape room.
I think that's what most peopleassume, but actually what I
really like about escape roomsis it really levels the playing
field and sometimes you know thepeople who you expect to do

(23:40):
well actually find themselvesgoing down different tangents
and rabbit holes that waste time, and then other people are able
to do better.
And there's more it's.
It's more than just intellect,it's also like organization of
the team and being able to spotthings quickly and, yeah, see

(24:02):
patterns and things like that.
So it's, it's more than justacademics, which is nice, and I
think that that kind of givespeople a chance to excel at
something that is science-based.
But they might think, oh, wow,I did that.
I beat that, even though, like,I wouldn't consider myself a
sciencey person.
Um, in fact, we had uh, so Idid an escape room where there

(24:24):
was a puzzle about bioplastics,and at the time it was during
the pandemic and I was workingat Biorbix.
So we have like a lot of kindof props that we used to use for
engagement purposes and I foundthis like molecule.
I had no idea what it was, butI thought, oh well, that'll look
nice for like decoration orsomething, so I put it there and

(24:51):
then there was actually ascientist who did did the escape
room.
It was all online, it was onzoom and because it was during
the pandemic and she spotted themolecule and she was like
that's a bioplastic polymer andso so there must be something to
do with that and I was satthere thinking it's got nothing
to do with that and she wastedso much time on it and I was
like, oh, I feel really bad, butin the same time, that's,
that's really cool, that, likeyou know, because you would
think, oh, she's bioplasticscientist, she would, uh, she

(25:13):
would know, and then do itreally quickly.
But, um, yeah, it can end up.
It can end up um causingdetriment sometimes.

Andrew MacIntosh (25:19):
So well, first of all, thank you for letting
me off the hook.
Second of all I'm going to saythat there was probably a monkey
somewhere in a picture in theescape room and I got too
distracted.

Amanda Mathieson (25:27):
Yeah, exactly yeah, that's what you'll say.

Andrew MacIntosh (25:30):
I couldn't pry my mind away from that, so I
went down the wrong rabbit hole.

Amanda Mathieson (25:32):
You were too academic, but yeah.
So how did they come about?
So the original escape room wasway too elaborate.
Like I was way too ambitious.
Like I will, I was way tooambitious.
It was um.
What I really wanted to do wasbring young people onto the
campus and get them kind of usedto the campus and make it a
more familiar environment.

(25:53):
So my idea was it was actuallya pandemic, and this was before
covid um, so just my little hipbefore it was cool, um, but yeah
, um but yeah.
So it was a pandemic.
The idea was that there was aneurotoxin in, um, the shrimp in
the bay, um, you, you know the,the movie the birds, um which

(26:18):
alfred hitchcock?
yeah, of course yeah exactly sothat actually he was inspired
because there was a neurotoxinin these shrimp that don't
really affect the shrimp, butwhen the birds eat the shrimp
and they go crazy and so and hesaw all these birds going, going
wild, and that's how he came upwith this idea for that movie.
And so I was thinking maybe Icould have like a zombie thing,

(26:40):
but actually based on science,where there's something in the
water, there's some kind ofneurotoxin that is getting into
people's drinking water, andbecause Malta actually filters a
lot of its marine water forbecause it doesn't have much
groundwater, so the idea wasthat there's a neurotoxin, it's
getting into people's drinkingwater and it's turning them into
zombies.
And so you have to come to theuniversity, you're invited by

(27:05):
your colleague to come and helpdiscover what the cause of this
is, and the first puzzle waslike a biology puzzle, where you
had to analyze a Western blotand figure out what this
pathogen was getting into, whichhad the neurotoxin in it, and
then, once you'd solved that,the internet went down because

(27:27):
obviously everything was goingcrazy.
So then you had to go intoanother room, into the servers,
a server room, to then solve anIT puzzle to get the internet
back online, and then you had togo to the chemistry lab to
figure out how to purify somewater so that you would have
drinking water for your escape,and basically you were going
around the whole university andit was so elaborate it was, you

(27:51):
know, every room had to be likecompletely set up in terms of
props to make it look good.
So that was a lot of effort.
And then, if you can imagine,you've got players going around
these rooms and each room has tobe reset, and so we had, like
people kind of hiding in thehallways and as soon as, like,
somebody had solved a puzzle,okay, like run in and reset that

(28:12):
room, but don't be seen byanybody, you know.
And so it was.
It was, um, it was quiteelaborate and in the end we
couldn't get many people throughthe room, through the puzzles,
because we had to space them outso much.
So after that I really narrowedit down, um, into one room, and
we actually did it at sciencecenter.
They gave us two rooms toborrow for the space of a week

(28:36):
or so and we ran two identicalrooms concurrently, and that I
would recommend because then youcould get more players through.
But that was a space station andso basically there was
scientists up on a space station, they'd all died and you had to
go up and basically figure outwhat had happened to the

(28:56):
scientists.
That was a really fun one.
We had a video One of mycolleagues was one of these,
like head of the space agency,who was like briefing you on
your mission.
So they had to watch this videoand then they would go up in
the elevator and that would bethe space shuttle.
So yeah, it was really fun.

(29:17):
We also had like a plot twist atthe end that one of the
scientists was actually aliveand had murdered all of the
other ones and if you didn'tfigure this out in time, he set
off a gas leak to kill you.
So basically, if you didn'tsolve the room in time, we had
this fog machine that we wouldput just under the door and all
of this smoke would come in andthe actor would run to the door.

(29:39):
It wasn't locked, but theywould pretend they couldn't open
the door.
They're like, oh my God, we'redying Now.

Andrew MacIntosh (29:44):
I know you had also some pretty young
participants.

Amanda Mathieson (29:47):
We did.

Andrew MacIntosh (29:49):
We did, yeah, yeah.

Amanda Mathieson (29:53):
Hopefully, no children were traumatized during
the making of this game.
They loved it.
They loved it.
In fact, the murder weapon wasthese two.
What was it like?
Syringes of these chemicals?
And as soon as one of the kidsdiscovered it, they stuck it
into the actor and murdered theactor.
So they, they loved all thebrutality of it, actually like
they were having such a goodtime the kids of today yes, that

(30:18):
was funny, because when youcome out, when they come out,
we're like, oh, did you survive?
um, and the actor was like theysurvived, I didn't.
So, yeah, that was great.

Andrew MacIntosh (30:33):
To me the actor is like a really
interesting piece of this aswell.
So maybe later I'll ask youabout scaling, like how this
kind of thing can scale morebroadly.
But I think, if I readcorrectly, the actor that you
had is somebody with like someimprovisation background as well
.
Yeah, and so how do you findthat person and, and you know,
make that kind of work for, forthese escape rooms and just kind
of more generally?

Amanda Mathieson (30:52):
yeah, I think it has to be somebody who is
from an arts background or hassome experience of that.
Like, usually I actually lookat local improv groups and
there's people who who do improvbecause they love it.
You know, that's the thing theythey like to do in their spare
time anyway, um, and usually Ibring them on board and it

(31:13):
doesn't really matter if theydon't understand the science,
because a lot of the timethey're not meant to um
understand things, becauseobviously you don't want them to
give it away anyway, um, so theless they understand, the
better.
Right, usually there's somekind of story.
So the actor in the spacestation, for example, um was the
engineer who, who had almostdied, but um had amnesia.

(31:36):
Basically it had a foggy headand really didn't understand
what had happened, and they werelike, oh, you know, sometimes
they would um kind of nudgepeople in the right direction if
they really struggle.
They'd be like, oh, I feel likeI remember something about X.
And then that would kind of helppeople along.
So the actor is there to kindof provide a buffer.

(31:58):
Basically, you know, somepeople are really good at
science or interested in science, or you know they feel like a
sciencey person and and they'rereally they're doing well.
Um, in fact, scratch that.
Can we delete that bit?
some people are really good atescape rooms and they're really
good at solving the puzzles andthey're going through them
really quickly.
Other people they get kind ofstuck or they might get

(32:22):
intimidated by the science andthey might part.
That might stop them in theirtracks a little bit.
So the actor is there to kindof provide that buffer for
people who might be struggling alittle bit too much.
If they're just given a littlenudge in the right direction,
then all of a sudden they getthe ball rolling and then they
build confidence and thenusually after that they do

(32:43):
really well.
So I think it's important tohave the actor for that,
especially with thesescience-based escape rooms, in
case people are like oh, thatlooks like an equation.
I don't know if that's for me,but yeah, and they also really
help in terms of, like you say,the theatrical elements making
it a big memorable experience.
You know, like I say, theselittle improvised things, like

(33:06):
when the, the, the young, theyoung girl kind of killed the
actor with the syringes, youknow, these little kind of
impromptu things that youwouldn't have otherwise, makes
it a unique experience for them.
Um, so I think that's reallygood.
And also, if you're not, um, ifyou've got not got a
professional budget to do theseescape rooms.
They're not permanentstructures either.

(33:28):
You're kind of doing them justas an engagement piece.
Often you don't havehigh-quality props and things
like that that would maybe standkids messing about with them
too much or drawing on thingsand things like that.
So having an actor in the roomis really good as well if you

(33:49):
want to protect some of yourmaterials, like the actor, for
example, can say oh, we're notallowed to touch those because
of why?
Reason like um, one of my escaperooms is about time travel and
uh, the the actor is basicallythe head of this time-travelling
team.
They're going back into thepast to solve research about

(34:11):
climate change, so that climatechange doesn't happen in the
future.
So one of the lines that healways used to use was oh, let's
not touch too many things,because you know we don't want
to affect too many things in thefuture.
So, yeah, you can.
Usually the actor's really goodat improvising things and
making it work when there'scertain, you know, constraints.
So I would recommend having agood story, a good actor,

(34:33):
because then you can get overthose limitations quite easily
so these, uh, what you were justtalking about, these escape
rooms with the space station.

Andrew MacIntosh (34:42):
They were done at a science center in malta.
I believe, and so you had this,I guess, a good audience of
people coming with some interestin the science center itself,
but not necessarily a stronginterest in any specific science
or even in science.
And I know that one of the I'mjust referencing now this paper

(35:02):
that you wrote, STEM EscapeRooms for Public Engagement in
the journal Research for All,where you have this quote, which
is really great In anengagement scenario, perceived
learning may be more valuablethan actual learning, as this
relates to self-efficacy and thelikelihood of continued
engagement, which I found reallyinteresting because I think a
lot of times we think of sciencecommunication as a way to kind

(35:24):
of impart knowledge.
Communication, as you know, away to kind of impart knowledge
but actually what might be moreimportant is that how people
feel about science and theirexperiences, and then maybe that
, you know, could kind of open adoor to future learning
opportunities, even if thislearning opportunity wasn't, you
know, the most kind of factgathering of exercises, which
again might not be the goal.
So I wonder if you could justtalk about that a little bit.

Amanda Mathieson (35:46):
Yeah, I really do strongly believe that.
I think, you know, for peoplewho may not be as engaged with
science, you know, just evenjust doing something that's
science-based is different forthem, you know.
So, and a lot of the times, Ithink, with engagement

(36:06):
activities, like you say, we'retrying to impart knowledge.
And you know, say, the sciencefestival, you might be like
imparting all of these facts ona person, but that's like the
maybe the 10th stand thatthey've been to that day.
And how much of thatinformation are they really
going to retain?
Information are they reallygoing to retain, um, you know,

(36:28):
these short-term interventionsthat we have.
We only get a short amount oftime and there's so much going
on in people's lives.
So for me, I think what's more,um, what's going to have more
of an impact is having some kindof really positive experience.
Um, you know, establishing somesort of positive association or
memory in somebody's mind that,oh, that was really fun, you

(36:48):
know.
And the more, the more we canmake science fun and interesting
and have those positiveassociations and even build
people's confidence.
Like, oh, I did a scienceescape room and actually I beat
it and actually my score wasquite good.
Um, you know, the more we canbuild that, the more I feel like
they're more likely to seek outother engagement opportunities.

(37:08):
So I think you know you haveyour kind of preaching to the
choir audience who are alreadyinterested and probably they are
going to remember thingsbecause they're really they're
already building their scienceknowledge through all of these
other you know they might watchscience documentaries, they
might read popular science booksand so on.
But if it's just like thatsnapshot, you've got an hour

(37:29):
with this person who never doesany science otherwise, you know,
just building that positivememory I think is a really good
thing, because then they mightbe like oh, there's a science
thing on, I enjoyed the escaperoom last time.
Let's go and check that out.
So I think I think that's whatwe can do.
Is, uh, is do that, because noteverybody, you know, I don't

(37:49):
think everybody can beinterested in everything, but we
can at least appreciate thingsand and be um engaged with
things.
And when we see, you knowscience in the news and things
like that, if we have a positiveassociation with yes, I like
science, I like scientists Idon't know much about it, but
I'm sure they're doing a goodjob like that, that that in

(38:11):
itself is is important as well,I think yeah, I mean, I guess it
depends on where you are atthis psycom forum.

Andrew MacIntosh (38:16):
That came up in the panel discussion that we
had about the fact that I thinkyou asked the question actually
about if SciComm in Japandoesn't have a long history, why
is it that people are sopro-science is maybe the wrong
way to think about it, but whyis there so little kind of
anti-science, anti-scientistrhetoric within the society?

(38:40):
And I think that's true.
People do tend to think that theinformation that's coming being
generated by science isprobably pretty robust and yeah,
there's there's much less kindof, you know, bad sentiment
towards it, but that's that'snot obviously the case
everywhere yeah, yeah, exactlyyeah, and so I kind of wonder

(39:00):
maybe that was the background,like in the examples you've
given so far.
We had the space station issueof trying to figure out what
happened to all these scientists.
Time travel.
You have the figuring out apandemic cause and sorting that
out.
That became very important nowthat we're in a pandemic.
But do you have any learningtargets as well when you design

(39:23):
these escapes?
So maybe there are things.
You started this interview bytalking about the bioeconomy and
what.
BioOrbic's kind of role in thatis in disseminating information
and facilitating researchcollaborations.
But are there any examples then, of whether it's escape rooms
or something similar where youactually have specific learning
targets or outcomes?
That you want to kind ofinfluence sentiment around.

Amanda Mathieson (39:45):
That's a really good question, actually,
because actually all of myescape rooms do have learning
outcomes, even though it's notso much about the facts and the
figures, and they all have keymessages, and that's what I
really want people to take away.
You know, similar to kind ofTED talks, where you're trying
to get a message across, a keymessage, and I think if you have
a key message in your escaperoom, that's the thing that can

(40:08):
really last and have animpression on someone.
So, for example, with theclimate themed escape room, you
know they're from the future,where, um, the climate crisis
wasn't resolved, um, and they'reliving in a horrible, horrible
environment.
You know, there's very littlefood, there's very little nature
around, there's not so muchgreen things, uh, the weather's
atrocious, um, this was thisfighting, um, and the only thing

(40:32):
they can do at that point,because things are so terrible,
is to go back in time to wherewe are now and to to finish off
this research so that, um, theycan figure out how to resolve it
, so that the future is bright,and the message of that is that
we're in this time.
Now we do still have time tofigure things out.

(40:53):
So that's what I want people totake away is that we need to
act now because we don't wantthat future and a lot of the
puzzles.
They are based on real researchprojects and even though I
think in an escape room you'rekind of under time pressure and
you just want to figure thingsout, it's really difficult to
take things in in that way inthat kind of environment, but at

(41:17):
the very least it can be aprompt for discussion afterwards
.
So often what we do now in ourescape rooms is afterwards we'll
have a discussion with peopleand we'll talk about those
puzzles.
So, for example, there's apuzzle where we're talking about
farm biodiversity and they haveto figure out how to increase
the biodiversity of this farm.
Afterwards we sit down and wetalk about also did you know

(41:40):
anything about farm biodiversity?
You know before?
You saw that?
And that can kind of thencement a bit more of the of the
learning, the message of the,the research sometimes we even
have the researchers present toa bit more of the of the
learning, the message of the,the research.
Sometimes we even have theresearchers present to talk
about some of the puzzles, whichis really nice as well, and
that adds an element that youwouldn't get in a normal
standard escape room, um, and Ithink as well, uh, it kind of is

(42:03):
a good way to build people'scuriosity, because if you just
go up to people and say, hey,can I tell you about my research
, you know it's like, uh, whywould I be interested in that?
But then if they do an escaperoom and they've, you know, they
have some reason to beintrigued by us.
You know, oh, we just did apuzzle.
Um, then it's, you know, can Itell you what's behind that

(42:27):
puzzle?
Then they've got a link to it,they've got a reason to be like,
yeah, actually, actually, yeah,tell me about it, what was that
about?
So I think it's a good pathwayto kind of making it more coming
from them, the questions,rather than us kind of forcing
the information onto them, aswe're sometimes wanting to do.

Andrew MacIntosh (42:46):
Yeah, for sure .
No, it's brilliant.
And you know, yesterday I waswith my, my daughter, in a
shopping center and um justchecking out a hobby store and I
noticed they had on the shelfthis origin of species board
game yeah and so I know that inI don't know the last decade you
see this kind of proliferationof those kinds of so game

(43:06):
gamifying knowledge um, yeahknowledge acquisition, yeah, the
process of learning science,which seems really exciting.
Um, I don't know if that gameitself is that great.
I've seen various ones likethat are similar with
conservation messages or withbiodiversity messages, um, or
just, uh, other things, spacethemed things, time themed
things, whatever yeah but theyall look pretty fun.

(43:28):
Do you have any, by the way,any board science board games
that you recommend that you'veplayed?

Amanda Mathieson (43:32):
um, I think there is one about the pandemic
um maybe it's called pandemic.
And there is one.
Um god, my colleague's gonnakill me now because I've
forgotten the name of it there's.
There's one about, um climatechange, um, in fact, I'll tell
you afterwards and you can addit.

Andrew MacIntosh (43:48):
I'll add it to the show notes.

Amanda Mathieson (43:49):
Yeah yeah, yeah, but there's, uh, it's.
It's quite new and mycolleague's just been sent like
a kind of preemptive copy of itoh cool um, but it's by the same
guys that did the the pandemicuh board game, right, so yeah,
so it should be really good, Ithink yeah, so board games, it
seems like that's.

Andrew MacIntosh (44:06):
It's scalable in a way.
If they get some popularity,it's pretty easy for people to
pick them up and play them attheir kitchen table.

Amanda Mathieson (44:12):
Yes.

Andrew MacIntosh (44:13):
With escape rooms.
It might be a bit different,but I know you've also
experimented with or run themonline and you talked about that
during the pandemic.
So just for the listeners, whatwould that actually look like
if you were doing an escape roomonline?

Amanda Mathieson (44:24):
Yeah, so that's actually how we started
the climate-themed escape room.
We realized, okay, that'sactually how we started the
climate themed escape room.
Um, we realized, okay, it'sgoing to be on zoom, because
that's what everybody's using.
Um, it's going to be on someonline video conferencing
software.
So, um, they're not actuallygoing to be in the room, um, and
luckily, as I say, I alwayshave an actor anyway.
So I thought, okay, the actorsin the room, they control the

(44:46):
actor.
Um, how, how can we explain this?
How can we get away with thisin the way that would fit into a
story so that it still makes itimmersive?
So that's where the originalstoryline came from, that the
actor is traveling from thefuture into the past and they're
from the future as well.
So, basically, the actor is theonly one traveling into the

(45:10):
past and they're watching himand they're telling him what to
do in the past, like giving himum, and we had some kind of uh,
what was it?
A severe jet lag, because he'straveled in the past like by
decades, yeah, severe time like.
So he's like, uh, very kind ofhis mind's, very foggy at the
minute.
So that's why you, you're theresearch team you have to help

(45:32):
him and tell him what to do.
Um, and so, yeah, basicallythey would log in on zoom and
they would ask him to look in acupboard or try that key or try
this.
Um, and we had we wanted to makeit a bit more interactive as
well.
So we would have, um, we hadthis ai called skivvy bot, and
skivvy bot would be able to scanthings in the room and digitize

(45:53):
them.
Um, and obviously this was justlike on google docs, and skivvy
bot would scan it quote,unquote, scan it but then we
basically just drop it into thefolder and they'd be like oh,
it's scanned, now we can readthis document or we can interact
with it.
So, um, basically it was justthat they would.
They would unlock a puzzle inthe room and it would be some
email or printed email orsomething like that, and then

(46:16):
it'd be scanned and then they'dbe able to interact with it.

Andrew MacIntosh (46:18):
On the, on Google Docs, yeah, this is, I
mean, with the current levelstate of IT and AI.
I mean it sounds like probablythere's so many opportunities
yeah make this just incredibleyeah but I wonder if you know,
since you've been doing this andnow you've published about it
as well, have you had peoplecoming to you and asking for
like we want to?
We think this is a great idea.
We want to set up a scape room.

(46:38):
Help us out.
Are you doing any kind ofconsulting for?
that yeah what kind of ideas areout there that you might talk
about.

Amanda Mathieson (46:51):
It's typical of anything like.
When I had this idea, I had noidea if anybody else was doing
it.
I thought, oh, I might be thefirst one to do it, um, but I'm
definitely not.
There's other people doing itand doing it in interesting ways
as well.
Like some of the moreinteresting ones, um, in fact,
one that's like really low interms of resources was somebody
made a google form where it wasmore like a choose your own
adventure story, so you, youselect.

(47:12):
It's like a, like a, yeah, likea google form where you select
multiple choice and then ittakes you to a different section
based on what you chose, and sothat's a really easy way of
doing it.
And then there was one that Ireally liked, um, in uh, it was
imperial college london, someguys in the chemistry department
did something called breakingbag.
Where it was Imperial CollegeLondon, some guys in the
chemistry department didsomething called breaking bag
where it was basically they hada rucksack and each rucksack

(47:36):
partition had a lock on it andyou had to solve the chemistry
puzzles to get deeper into thebag.
So I loved, I loved that idea.
But yeah, there's so many waysthat you can do it and there's.
There's a few people out thereknow that.
You know, whenever I've spokenat a big conference like pcst um
, and I'm there talking about myescape rooms that they lump me
in with like one or two otherpeople who are also talking

(47:58):
about escape rooms.
So I'm like, okay, there'sdefinitely other people doing it
then that's cool yeah, so yeah,are there any?

Andrew MacIntosh (48:04):
are there any examples of like you know,
whether they're science centersor museums who've kind of done
it larger, who have likeexhibits, for example, for
escape rooms for science thatyou know of?

Amanda Mathieson (48:14):
there.
There definitely will be.
I know that um it was.
It wasn't a science museum, itwas a history museum.
But a history museum put out atender where they were asking
someone to design an escape roomfor them that would go into
their museum as kind of a semipermanent um exhibit or activity
.
So I would say that theyprobably aren't the only ones

(48:37):
doing it.
There aren't particular onesthat I know of, but I think
definitely, you know, that'ssomething that a science center
could definitely have absolutelyas an activity.

Andrew MacIntosh (48:46):
Yeah yeah, I mean so immersive and you can
just imagine with the right kindof funding.

Amanda Mathieson (48:50):
Yes, amazing yeah.

Andrew MacIntosh (48:52):
Yeah, Super cool.
So to all the primatologistsout there listening has an idea
about a primate themed escaperoom?
You can get in touch with theprimate gas or Amanda directly
and and throw around some ideas.
Um yeah, so that's superfascinating to me.
Um, I love these kind of.
Like I said, it was a bit of anoff the wall idea to me, but
obviously it's being done.

(49:13):
It's been done and I thinkpeople are getting a lot of
engagement out of it.
But I want to maybe transition,as we kind of start to close
this conversation out, toSciComm more broadly.
So I know you also during thepandemic you started a podcast
called SciComm Stories, and so Iwonder if you could just talk a

(49:35):
little bit about that and thenmaybe you can touch on some of
the not in detail, but just someof the things that you learned
doing that and from otherscience communicators.

Amanda Mathieson (49:44):
Yeah, definitely.
So when the pandemic hit, I hadloads of time on my hands and,
like everybody else and theirdog, I started a podcast.
Yeah, basically out of boredomand the fact that I had time.
But I also felt, like you know,I feel like I'm really lucky in
that I get to go to conferences, I get to travel and I get to

(50:07):
meet people who are doing allkinds of cool things in terms of
science communication, becauseyou see them, you know when you,
you know, whenever everyonegathers at a conference, you can
see, oh, this person's doingthis in Portugal.
Like when would I ever find outabout that?
Which is really amazing.
And I remember back when I wasan undergraduate, I didn't even
know science communication was ajob, and now it seems to be

(50:30):
growing and growing.
But at the same time, I thinkprobably a lot of young people
maybe don't know that sciencecommunication is a job.
So what I wanted to do was makeit a bit more open and
accessible to people.
You know, if they can't go tothe conferences themselves,
maybe they can at least hearfrom the people who are doing
these things.
So the point of it was to foreach episode to interview

(50:52):
someone who's done somethinginteresting, something different
in terms of science,communication and then, um, yeah
, just just promote that, youknow, put it out to to more
people.
Um, and it was really greatdoing it.
I really enjoyed it.
I met so many different peoplethrough that podcast.
I learned about so many coolthings, and some of them that
come to mind would be um, therewas a guy in edinburgh who did

(51:16):
um a science harry potter themedokay treasure hunt kind of
thing.
So people came to the I think itwas the royal botanical gardens
, and they had harry potterthemed classes like potions, um,
and herbology and care ofmagical creatures.
But it was, all you know, realscience based and which was

(51:37):
really cool.
And and I think from that Ilearned, if you take people's
fantasy worlds that they'realready kind of bought into,
like harry potter, and combinescience with that, that
definitely reaches more people.
And then there was another guyin Scotland who who does science
ceilidh, so that's atraditional Scottish dance, and

(51:57):
he gets people to figure out achoreography for a dance that
will describe some sort ofscience phenomena, so, for
example, a solar eclipse.
How can you do a dance thatwould demonstrate a solar
eclipse or like maybe it's ametabolic reaction or something,
um, so that that was reallycool.
Um, what else did we do?

Andrew MacIntosh (52:19):
I'm trying to think of other people that I
should mention that, um, therewas you I noticed that you had
some interviews with folks whoare trying to engage people with
maths.

Amanda Mathieson (52:34):
Yes, and.

Andrew MacIntosh (52:36):
I think that's maybe even more so than science
.
Maths seems to be somethingthat so many people, if not most
people, have a distaste for.
It's very unfortunate.
So I know there's a gosh I'mnot going to remember her name
either, but there was a recentbook.
The book title is Is is mathreal?
And it's a British author andmathematician uh, abstract

(52:57):
mathematician, theoreticalmathematician.
He's been really taking uh, ormaking um uh a kind of priority
on just getting out that messagethat math is not as scary as it
it could be.
And you know there are all thesedifferent ways of teaching,
engaging people with it andunderstanding it and it's just
really kind of connecting,trying to connect with people in
different ways so that theythey lose that kind of fear of

(53:19):
it.
But I, you know, I wonder ifyou have any thoughts on that
from yeah, maths is.

Amanda Mathieson (53:22):
Maths is an interesting one because, yeah,
people do find it kind of like abit intimidating sometimes.
But there was, there was oneguest on the podcast called
Katie Steckles, and the way Imet her was we were doing this
history tour about women who'dcontributed to science in some
way and were based in Manchester.
So this was when I was at theUniversity of Manchester and she

(53:46):
did a portion of the tour abouta famous female mathematician.
But I just remember thatbasically, when she so we would
pick people up from one locationand take them to the next.
And she came to pick people upfrom my location and took them
to her location, but she showedthem a Rubik's Cube at the

(54:08):
beginning.
When she picked them up, shewas like, by the time we reach
the next location, I will havesolved this like really, and she
was just talking like shewasn't even looking at the thing
I don't feel likeand then by the time we got
there, she'd solved it and thenshe was doing like some fun, um,
what I would call mathemagic.
Um, we had someone actually, itseems, summer school um, who so

(54:30):
as part of the summer school,we do like an open mic night
where they can do any sort ofform of entertainment for five
minutes, and one student didMathemagic.
So basically like figuring outwhat number people had guessed
in their heads, using all ofthese like behind the scenes
maths, but to you looks likemagic, so that's really good.

(54:50):
I think that's one way ofinspiring people.
And another thing that anotheractivity that I thought was
really good was there's a guy inGreece who's doing what was it?
Cooking with numbers, cookingwith the numbers it was called,
and basically it was forstudents who are struggling with
maths, but like cooking forstudents who are struggling with

(55:13):
maths, but like cooking.
So you have to use your mathsto measure out the ingredients,
to figure out the nutrition, to,to do the recipe.
Basically, and that's a anotherway of like.
If you combine something peopleare confident in and that they
like with something that maybethey feel less confident in, I
feel like that can be the bridgeto getting them over that
barrier.

Andrew MacIntosh (55:31):
Okay, so I think we can wind this down here
, but I have one kind of lastquestion, which is we've already
talked about a whole bunch ofdifferent ways to engage people
with science.
What is it that you're kind ofworking on right now that you're
really excited about, and maybethat involves, like a new
escape room that you'reenvisioning, or something else.

Amanda Mathieson (55:50):
Well, I'm actually right now I'm studying
a doctorate at Trinity CollegeDublin.
It's in the School of Educationand my focus is play, obviously
.

Andrew MacIntosh (56:01):
I mean.

Amanda Mathieson (56:02):
I love escape rooms, I love play.
I think play is such awonderful way to learn.
I know that when I was younger,you know, I used to play a lot
of video games and most peopleat the time, especially, would
say, oh, what a waste of time,you know, spending all evening
playing video games.
But I learned a lot from thosevideo games.
Like, there was a pirate gamewhere I basically learned north,

(56:24):
east, south and west from thatand you were kind of exploring
this map and the map was quitereminiscent of the globe.
So, like you know, you'd have,uh, cultures that were a little
bit like african cultures in inthat region.
You know the far east would bequite similar to kind of east
asian cultures.
So I kind of learned a littlebit about geography and where

(56:45):
these different cultures werefrom that game.
And there was another gamecalled Age of Empires where you
had to build your owncivilization and you had to do
campaigns as well that wererelated to history, like the
Spanish conquests in America andso on.
So I learned a bit of historyfrom that.
But also there were skills thatI learned, I feel like, or

(57:06):
maybe concepts that were alittle bit more abstract.
So, for example, when I wasbuilding these civilizations,
you start with just two villagesand you have to acquire wood,
you acquire materials, you buildlike markets, you build a
military base and all of thatkind of stuff.
And then in history we had towrite an essay, I remember,

(57:27):
about World War II from theperspective of the prime
minister and the government whowere running things at the time.
And I wrote this essay and myteacher said it was really great
, and they were like you reallyunderstand how to run a country,
and I was like I've run entirecivilizations, like I've got a
load of experience, but like youknow.

(57:47):
So I think games can reallyreally build these skills that
you wouldn't you know, and howyou have these experiences that
you wouldn't otherwise.
So I'm really interested in inthat, and so one of the things I
want to do for my project is todevelop a game that would teach
students how to be scientists,like if you were scientists and

(58:07):
you had to solve all of theseenvironmental issues like excess
plastic, like excess CO2, likebiodiversity loss.
You know the planet is in thishorrible state.
You are scientists, how are yougoing to fix it?
And so I wanted to design agame that secondary school
students would play over, say,10 weeks, and they have to do

(58:29):
all the things that scientistsdo.
They have to engage withindustry, they have to talk to
the public, they have to applyfor funding, like all of these
different things that you wouldthink um a kind of side to the
science, but really they're.
They're so much part of it andI want to kind of give them that
experience of what it's like tobe a researcher.

Andrew MacIntosh (58:47):
So I don't know if anyone will have fun
with the module on applying forfunding.

Amanda Mathieson (58:53):
It will be soul-crushing.

Andrew MacIntosh (58:55):
Teach resilience as well in the
process.

Amanda Mathieson (58:57):
Yeah, exactly, yeah, resilience is the whole
idea, I think.

Andrew MacIntosh (59:02):
I mean, it's fascinating and while you were
talking I was just thinking, youknow one of the most immersive
examples of a game that had acrazy outcome Science fiction,
orson Scott Card.
I said Orson Scott Card,ender's Game have you read
Ender's Game?

Amanda Mathieson (59:16):
I haven't read it, but I've heard of it.
I saw like the end of the movieonce when somebody else was
watching it and it looked reallycool.
So, yeah, I would definitelyread that.
Yeah.

Andrew MacIntosh (59:25):
I mean it's a bit of a spoiler alert, but the.
Yeah, I mean it's a bit of aspoiler alert, but the whole
idea there is this society islooking for the perfect general
to destroy this alien race thatthe human race is at war with
and rather than having.
well, the kind of reveal at theend is that the whole training
system that this kid geneticallyengineered for that purpose,
the whole training system thathe engaged in, was actually the

(59:48):
real war.
So by the end of it he kind ofdefeats the game, but actually
they defeated the aliencivilization wow and so I
imagine, with what you weretalking about is kind of like an
example of that.

Amanda Mathieson (59:58):
Yeah, how can you get these people to like you
know that end point, but thewhole time they think it's like
this fun kind of game or thisexperience where yeah so that's
really interesting without thekind of dystopic ideas yeah,
yeah, that would be more likehow do we solve and help the
planet, rather than how do wejust imagine like can we put
these people in trainingprograms to like solve the
climate crisis?

Andrew MacIntosh (01:00:17):
you know knowing that they're actually
doing it as they go that wouldbe really cool.

Amanda Mathieson (01:00:21):
Yeah, because you can test things um without
well, yeah, if you, if you werereally doing it, I suppose, yeah
, you can't just like, oh yeah,just throw this genetic variant
out into the world and see whathappens?
No, probably not.

Andrew MacIntosh (01:00:31):
Yeah, no, but yeah, I mean, that sounds really
interesting and, um, I knowyou're just at the start of that
, that PhD journey right now.
But I wish you the best of luckin that.

Amanda Mathieson (01:00:40):
Oh, thank you, I'll need it.

Andrew MacIntosh (01:00:42):
Maybe we'll have a I'll have you back on at
some point.
We can talk about some of theresults that you're finding yeah
, definitely how the games weregoing.
But, amanda, is there anythingelse that you didn't mention or
you want to come back to fromthis conversation to leave
people with?

Amanda Mathieson (01:00:54):
no, I just want to say thank you for having
me on and um, just to telleverybody to play more.
I think there's so manybenefits to it, um, not just
kind of via mental health, butalso in terms of you, you know,
developing skills, developingknowledge.
It's so much more productivethan we give it credit for.
And it's not just children whoshould play.

(01:01:16):
We should all play, we shouldall be playing.

Andrew MacIntosh (01:01:18):
Amanda Matheson.
Thank you so much for being onthe Prime 8 cast Wonderful
message to close.

Amanda Mathieson (01:01:23):
Thank you very much.