Discover the transformative world of Central American prisons with Dr. Jarrod Sadulski, whose journey from the Coast Guard to criminology and federal law enforcement has led him to the heart of prison reform in Belize. As we navigate through his insights, you'll uncover the stark realities and surprising successes within the Belize Central Prison, a place where innovation in rehabilitation starkly contrasts with the turmoil often seen in neighboring countries' facilities. This episode promises an eye-opening look at how effective management and minimal resources are reshaping the lives of inmates through coexistence and self-sustainability.
Travel inside the Belize Central Prison, where harsh conditions meet groundbreaking rehabilitation efforts. From the Ashcroft Rehabilitation Program to the management strategies that emphasize peaceful coexistence among gang members, we explore the unique approaches that have led to impressively low recidivism rates. Despite the limited budget of just $9 per day per inmate, the focus on life skills and trade training is remarkable. Listen as Dr. Sadulski shares his firsthand experience of witnessing inmates working freely with machetes, challenging perceptions of prison life and offering a new perspective on the potential for redemption and reintegration.
Contact Dr. Jared Sadulski jarrod@sadulski.com
LinkedIn - Dr. Jarrod Sadulski
Belize prison articles by Dr. Sadulski:
- https://amuedge.com/belize-prisons-rehabilitation-programs-raise-morale-lower-recidivism/
- https://amuedge.com/belize-central-a-model-for-central-american-prisons/
Netflix documentary:
- Inside the World's Toughest Prison: Season 2, Episode 4 Belize: The Prison That Found God
- Inside the World's Toughest Prison Season 1, Episode 1: Danli Prison, Honduras
From crowd control to cell extractions, the PepperBall system is the safe, non-lethal option.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
In more than 28 years of corrections, I have used or
supervised Pepperball hundredsof times.
Now, as a master instructor forPepperball, I teach others
about the versatility andeffectiveness of this Pepperball
system.
From cell extractions todisturbances on the rec yard,
pepperball is the first optionin my correctional toolbox.
One of the most dangerous timesfor officers is during cell
(00:22):
extractions.
One of the most dangerous timesfor officers is during cell
extractions.
Pepperball allows officers torespond with the lowest level of
force and still be effectiveand ready if the situation
escalates.
The responding officer controlswhere the projectiles are aimed
, how many projectiles arelaunched and how rapidly they're
deployed.
This allows the response to betailored to the moment.
(00:43):
To learn more about Pepperball,go to wwwpepperballcom or click
the link below in the show'sinformation guide.
Pepperball is the safer optionfirst.
Well, hello and welcome back tothe Prison Officer Podcast.
My name is Mike Cantrell.
Today I've got Dr JaredSadulski.
He's a criminologist thatfocuses on the most pressing
(01:04):
issues in criminal justice.
Jared has over two decades offederal law enforcement
experience and for the past fiveyears he's been leading teams
to a prison in Central America.
These teams provide the onlytraining that the prison
officers receive down there.
In addition to that, he's beenproviding training on prison
operations, involved in thevarious rehabilitation programs
(01:27):
and he's been working directlywith the inmates to provide
trade skills training, lifeskills training.
His experiences have led him toeven testify before Congress
this year, so really excited tohave him on the program.
As most of you know, I'vementioned it before.
Have him on the program as mostof you know, I've mentioned it
before One of the things Ididn't know or I knew, but I
(01:47):
just didn't realize how globalCorrections is until I started
this podcast.
We have listeners from 61different countries, so when I
had the opportunity to talk toJared here and hear about what
he's seen down there in CentralAmerica, I just jumped on it.
So welcome to the PrisonOfficer Podcast, jared.
Thank you for the opportunityto be here.
Yeah, I'm really excited aboutthis.
(02:09):
I'd like to back up before westart and get into the prison
stuff.
Tell me a little bit aboutyourself, where you grew up, how
you got into law enforcement,that type of stuff.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
Sure.
So I grew up in SouthwestFlorida, sarasota County,
florida.
I joined the Coast Guard at 18.
That gave me some exposure tolaw enforcement.
So ultimately I made thattransition after my enlistment
and I did federal lawenforcement as well as local law
enforcement and getting to theend of that career I decided to
continue in criminal justice.
I went and pursued my PhD,became a criminologist and the
(02:44):
area that I studied the most ishuman trafficking.
Speaker 1 (02:47):
So that's ultimately what led me to Central America
to find the prison Right rightand human trafficking and
corrections often in many partsof the world go together.
They're intertwined.
The criminal, the crime excuseme about that, the crime, you
know, uh, the a lot of theinmates, drug trafficking and
(03:09):
stuff like that those areinterconnected.
So that's interesting that yougot involved in that.
So did that just come out ofthe blue?
How did you end up getting thechance to go to Central America?
Speaker 2 (03:20):
Great question.
So I was invited to come to theuh, come to Belize, in Central
America, which is anEnglish-speaking nation, the
only English-speaking nation inCentral America, and I was
invited to go speak to theirgovernment on counter-human
trafficking and counter-drugtrafficking.
So the event was kind ofturning into a big deal for me.
It was right after I finishedthe PhD and it was one of my
first main speaking events, andthe host, which is a university,
(03:45):
invited all of these differentpeople to come hear me speak the
Belize Coast Guard, customs,immigration.
And just before the trip Iwatched this Netflix documentary
titled World's Toughest Prisonsthe Belize edition.
And it was about two daysbefore the trip and what I saw
was just so unbelievable in thatdocumentary that when I saw the
(04:06):
prison director was on the listof people to hear me speak, I
reached out and asked if I couldget a tour of his prison and
not a request he gets very oftenbut he said sure, and what I
saw shocked me, wow.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
So my next question is tell me what you saw.
Well, so my next question istell me what you saw.
Yeah, I mean, I've seen stufffrom Central America where
there's prisons down there thatthey don't feed and stuff like
we do.
If your family doesn't bringfood to the gate, you don't get
anything.
Is it at that level?
Tell me what you saw.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
Right.
So, to put in perspective, sothe prison.
So I started doing someresearch after the documentary.
The prison to Belize is south,so there's only one prison in
the nation of Belize.
So the prison to the South isDanly, honduras.
Now that prison is completelycartel run, so the staff and the
prison officers maintain aperimeter around the prison, but
it's actually the cartels thatare controlling operations
(05:00):
within the prison.
In the prison to the north,until December of 2018, until
the Mexican military had to comein the prison to the north,
which is Chetumal, mexico was inthe same situation, where the
cartels were controlling thedaily operations in the prison.
Then you have bullies.
So when I watched thisdocumentary, it was so
(05:22):
unbelievable.
So I saw what existed in thedocumentary.
I saw firsthand.
The first thing I saw when Ipulled up to the prison gates
were 25 inmates with machetescutting down grass outside of
the prison across the street,with one guard that looked half
asleep.
And I'm watching this.
And so then I go in and this isa poor prison in a poor country
.
They receive $9 per day perinmate in operating costs and
(05:56):
yet they have one of the lowestfree offending rates in the
world.
Right, the prison was indeplorable conditions.
There was not running water inall of the facilities.
They were housing adults withjuveniles.
Oh man, they were constantlyhaving escapes, guards were
bringing in drugs, sometimesfirearms, and so it was so bad
(06:17):
that a businessman was buildingthe street in front of the
prison and he said, regardlessof what they've done, nobody
should live in that condition.
He reached out to the primeminister about the deplorable
conditions and the primeminister said well, if you're
concerned, why don't you takeover management of the prison?
So his name was John Woods andwhat he did was he was a
Rotarian in Belize.
He went to the other Rotarians.
They formed this ColbyFoundation, which is after
(06:41):
what's a Rotarian?
I didn't yep, so a rotarian.
So it's basically the rotaryyou know is is a?
Uh, we have them in the unitedstates and they're uh global
rotary club rotary, right, okay,okay, sorry, no, no problem.
So he went to his local rotaryand they formed this colby
foundation, which was namedafter a catholic priest that uh
sacrificed his life for somebodyelse in World War II in Germany
(07:06):
.
So they developed this programand they came in and they said
that if they're going to takeover management of the prison,
that it has to be done their way, which the government agreed to
.
First thing they did was theylet go of all the staff and they
brought new people in, and thenthey started building out the
prison to where the conditionsimproved.
They separated the adults fromthe juveniles and ultimately the
(07:29):
prison is on 220 acres of land,and so they're able to be
self-sustaining in that they'reable to farm, they have poultry,
they have agriculture, so 60%of the food that's served at the
prison is actually from theprison grounds.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
That's not unusual.
I mean many states, includingMissouri, Tennessee, Mississippi
that's the way they used totake care of the prisons.
The inmates made their own food, so that's not unusual.
It's a good program, so itshows this.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
Right, that's not unusual.
It's a good program, so itshows this Right.
So for me, I go in there andI'm standing on the second floor
and I was with the director andI was looking out over the yard
and there were a group playingsoccer together and he told me
the director told me.
He said that's Bloods Crips andMS-13 on the streets.
They kill each other here inthe prison they play soccer
together.
So I just was so amazed by whatI had saw.
(08:25):
And so we go, and now we'rewalking the grounds and I've got
inmates everywhere.
They're walking around me andI'd never been in a prison in my
life.
I knew nothing about prisonsfive years ago and I was
completely shocked at what I wasseeing.
And he explained that they havea variance between 9% and 14%
(08:46):
recidivism rate, which is one ofthe lowest that I'm aware of in
the world.
And yet they do that onreceiving $9 per day per inmate
for management of the prison.
Compared to last I checked,which is about five years ago, I
think we're looking at like$100 per day per inmate,
according to a study that I'veread in the United States.
So here they are doing thiswith only 10% of what prisons
(09:09):
are receiving in the UnitedStates and people aren't coming
back.
And so the first question Iasked was how?
Why?
So we go into a section of theprison that's a rehabilitation
ward area and I walk in there.
There's 30 inmates in there,there's no prison officers.
There's the director that'swith me, there's a counselor
(09:30):
that's in there, and I walk intothis room and you got a picture
of Belize Central Prison.
It doesn't have the modernluxuries of a regular prison in
a first world country.
So I'm looking around, thewalls haven't been painted in
years, it's concrete, theflooring is all just concrete
(09:53):
and there's no air conditioning.
I mean, it has electricity insome parts.
In some parts of the prison itdoes, others it doesn't.
And so I'm in there and I walkinto this room and I'm looking
and I'm surrounded by inmates.
They kind of put me in themiddle for some reason.
And the counselor said to theinmates he said you know, we're
going to have this counselingsession.
(10:13):
Does anybody, any of theinmates, want to start this
counseling session off in prayer?
And I'm thinking to myself okay, I'm in a third world prison in
a third world country, what amI doing?
And so this one inmate raiseshis hand and third world country
.
What am I doing?
And so this one inmate raiseshis hand and so I don't know if
I'm supposed to close my eyes.
I don't know what to do.
So I'm just kind of shocked.
Standing there and I listenedto the prison inmate which was
in there, convicted for murder,and during his prayer he said I
(10:34):
want to ask for God's blessingon the visitor.
And then it hit me he's askingfor God's blessing on me.
Here I am in this prison andthis inmate is asking for God's
blessing on me and the rest ofthe tour.
I just kept going back to that.
And I came back to the UnitedStates and I knew there was
something I needed to do, and soI reached out to the director
and I said what do you need?
(10:55):
And he said well, we need basictoiletries, we need basic,
basic supplies.
And he explained to me thebudget and the challenges they
were having.
So I rallied the troops and wewent and we filled up two
shipping containers and had itsent to Belize, or sent items to
shipping containers to meetvery basic needs Cloth so that
the inmates can sew to maketheir own uniforms.
(11:17):
So we're not sending uniforms,we're sending cloth, because
that's the level that they're at.
I still was unsettled, and so Ireached back out to the director
and I said well, is thereanything else?
And he said, well, we don'treceive any training.
So when somebody is hired,they're put out in the yard.
The only training they'rereceiving is from the person,
(11:37):
the prison officer, standingnext to them.
There was absolutely no formaltraining or even a training
manual or training programwithin the prison at the time,
and so I thought, well, let mesee if I can find somebody
that's an expert in corrections,has some corrections experience
, that will go down and providetraining.
As hard as I looked, I couldn'tfind anybody.
I mean, people would go, butthey want five or 10 grand.
(11:58):
I don't blame them, but I'masking them to go and even pay
their own expenses.
And so I couldn't find anybody.
I was still unsettled, so Idecided that I can't let this go
.
So what I did was I startedgoing into corrections
facilities here in my home stateof Florida and I explained to
the prison wardens and everybodythat would listen to me hey, I
just need to learn and then I'llgo down and deliver this
(12:21):
training.
So the first training that theyhad asked for was riots,
escapes and hostage-takingsituations, which are realities
in any prison right.
So that was what I focused on.
I went to three differentcorrections facilities, prisons
here in Florida.
I got manuals, I talked totheir tactical teams, I talked
to you know, basically some ofthe facilities would really open
(12:41):
up and give me everything thatI needed and basically let me
sit in on their training so thatI could go and replicate that
training.
So I went down there in Januaryof 2020, at this point, when I
provided the first training onriots, escapes and
hostage-staking situations,covid hit.
There were some problems in theprison right.
No longer allowed to see theirfamily members, they were on
(13:03):
lockdown for months and thatresulted of the guards in the
cells having them call outwhenever the radio calls would
(13:31):
come to report that everythingwas normal.
They waited for nightfall andthey escaped.
Now, as terrible as all that isand I'm not crediting the
training, but I will say not oneprison officer died and that
was the focus of the trainingsurvival, and so the last escape
was that particular one.
So they have not had an escapenow in four years, which, for
(13:54):
having no budget and the fencewas blown down after a hurricane
in 2023, and yet they've had noescapes.
So that was a very isolatedincident and you know, but it
really motivated me.
So, through COVID, all the wayto today in fact, I'll be there
next week I have been takingteams.
Now, now that you know, thishas kind of gained some
(14:15):
attention, I've been able tofind people that are willing to
go and we've been providingtraining now for several years.
Corrections One Academy.
I reached out to those folksand explained to them what I'm
doing and I said you know,they've never had anything close
to an online training academy.
You know, is this somethingthat you would partner with me
on?
And they did.
You know, they gave me a dealand we ended up graduating.
(14:37):
You know, the vast majority oftheir staff Wow, and that's the
first time they've receivedformalized training.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
That Wow, and that's the first time they've received
formalized training.
That's great, that's amazing.
So for those of us that haven'tbeen there, let's back up a
little bit.
Describe the prison to me,because I've got a bunch of
correctional officers I know,like myself, that are sitting
there trying to imagine whatthis looks like.
So are we talking, are therebars and cells?
Are they double bunked, triplebunked?
(15:04):
Are you talking tiers, multipletiers?
Do they have pods?
Is it bays, that type of stuff?
Describe that prison to me,okay.
Speaker 2 (15:13):
So when you walk in, there's the control center and
you know they're basically allthe inmates you know come
through there, and so from therethey hit the first checkpoint
where they're searched.
And then as you walk into theprison, setting to the left is a
large auditorium and there'sprobably about nine different
cell buildings.
(15:33):
And so when you walk into themain door, which is, I think
they call it a rickets Does thatsound right?
That's what they call it downthere.
So basically, you know, likethe bars of the doors, you know
like what I would typicallyexpect to see in a prison.
So they have that it's rusted,it's unpainted, and you walk in
(15:54):
concrete floors, concrete walls,and you walk in and there's
probably 30, there's two wingsand there's probably maybe the
prison house houses.
The current population is 1100,but I think it's built for like
2000 or something.
So it's one of the few prisonsI've heard of that is not
overcrowded.
So a lot of these wings are notactually even occupied, I
(16:15):
should say a lot.
Some of them are not.
So looking into the cell, youknow what you would see is all
concrete.
You know the walls, theflooring there they do.
It is double bunked and in andin places that it's not, in
places that it's not, whichwould be the what they call it.
They call it theiradministrative segregation.
(16:36):
So the people that break theprison rules, right, they are
sent to total deprivation iswhat I would call it.
And there's no electricity,there's no beds.
You know, if you don't want tolay on the ground, you could tie
a sheet to the metal bar of thedoor, to the window, because
the window's metal bars.
And you know, and that's whatit is, and as harsh as that
(16:57):
sounds, that's a much bettercondition than being in the
prisons.
And the neighboring countries.
You know, go to a prison inGuatemala.
A prison in El Salvador wouldbe the exception, but you know,
if you look at Honduras, forexample, you know these are
luxuries.
Adseg in Belize is a luxurycompared to these other prisons,
to where at least they're safe.
Right, we don't have at theBelize Central Prison you're not
(17:18):
having violence among inmates.
You know, even though theconditions are rough because
it's a poor country, the peopleare fed All of these standards
and they go by, I think, the UNstandards they're all met.
They are recognized as a prisonthat is operating without any
meaningful budget, in a powerfulway and doing amazing things,
(17:42):
and so what we've been doing thelast couple of years is trying
to, you know, help improve theconditions the best that we can
at the prison, right, so if Ican take people down there that
you know have constructionskills, that have different
skills, that we can help, youknow, strengthen the conditions
in the prison, you know we'reall for it.
Now, you know I will say that,you know, in the programs.
(18:03):
So if we go back to thatrehabilitation program so it's
called Ashcroft RehabilitationProgram and basically it's a, I
think it's a, I want to say a90-day program, and you know
they're receiving counselingevery day and they're staying
together.
So the same room that they aredoing the training and during
the day is the same room they'resleeping in, so and it's just
(18:26):
basically a big, a big bay, okay, and in that you know they have
, they have single beds and youknow it's, you know it.
You know on the outside itlooks, it looks, you know it
looks like a prison in the thirdworld country.
But you know, these guysthey're happy to be in these
programs because they'rereceiving life skills training.
These guys they're happy to bein these programs because
(18:47):
they're receiving life skillstraining.
They're receiving training ontrade skills and what to do when
they get out.
And I could give you story afterstory of people that I've come
across in that community that assoon as I tell them that I'm
down there because I'm providingtraining at the prison, oh, I
was in the prison X amount ofyears ago.
And I always say well, what doyou think of the prison?
And every single person thatI've spoken to that was
sentenced in that prison speakshighly of it.
(19:07):
They say that it changed mylife, it straightened me out, it
got me off drugs, and I meaneverybody from the taxi driver
to the tour guide it seems likeeverybody has been to that
prison.
I mean, it's not true, noteverybody hasn't been there, but
it's amazing to me how manypeople I've come across that
have that haven't gone back.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
Yeah, so talk to me about the prison officers.
I know when I've seen, you know, prisons in some other
countries, sometimes there's areally high female ratio to the
male inmates.
You know, even with when I wasdown on the border, I saw a
(19:46):
prison that was a maleinstitution.
It was almost entirely femaleofficers.
So is it that way?
What's the officer carrying?
Do they have cuffs?
Do they have a baton?
Do they have OC?
Tell me about what theofficer's day is like.
Great question.
Speaker 2 (20:02):
So I spend a lot of time with them and I've gotten
to know them and it really Ican't think of a better word
than inspires me.
So this prison, they have a lotof things in place to maintain
these standards, right?
So drug testing, they're alwaysdrug testing, both the staff
and the inmates.
Recently they did a sweep wherethey had the police come in
(20:23):
with dogs.
They pulled every inmate out ofthe cells, put them in the main
auditorium, had the dogs gothrough every cell.
There was no, I'm sorry I'm notanswering your question, but
I'll get to it.
No, you're fine.
So they put, basically, theydid a surprise search and they
brought in the dogs, went allthrough the prison.
It was like midnight, two inthe morning, so nobody would
have seen this coming and theydid not find any drugs in that
(20:45):
prison.
I'm not saying the drugs don'texist in that prison, because
they do, and there's a coupleincidents a year because I read
the annual reports of where theyare finding people, where they
are popping positive on a drugtest, but for those dogs to go
through those cells and not tohave found drugs or weapons.
They also searched, obviously,for weapons and that, and with
(21:06):
1,000 inmates and basicallybeing able to go through there
and not finding any major prisonviolations really speaks
volumes to how this prison isoperated.
And to answer your question, soif these guys are hungry for
training, if there's a period oftime where I don't go, because
I try to go once a quarter, andif there's time that I'm getting
six, seven months there, I'mhearing from them, they're
(21:27):
contacting me on the phone.
They're asking for training.
Seven months there, I'm hearingfrom them, they're contacting
by the phone, they're asking fortraining.
And it is inspiring to me thata prison officer that is being
paid last I checked, which isprobably about a year ago, $2.50
an hour, starting off yetmaintains his integrity,
maintains basically follows theprocedures that are in place.
(21:50):
And this prison operates insuch a good manner that I as an
American, walk freely throughevery aspect of that prison by
myself, and had I tried thatbefore 2002, I would be taken as
a bargaining chip against thegovernment here.
When I'm there next week I willwalk through the different
(22:12):
sections of the prison and notthink twice about it, and in
Central America that's unheardof.
Speaker 1 (22:17):
I wouldn't recommend you do it in a penitentiary in
America.
Wow, People have to go throughtraining before they're even
thought about and most of themare going to be escorted through
our prisons with an officer.
So, yeah, that says somethingabout just the.
I don't know, Is it the theintegrity, the the willingness
(22:40):
to help, because they're allkind of in the same low income?
Speaker 2 (22:45):
system, right.
So part of it is the size ofthe country, right, so the size
of the country is a populationof around 400,000 people, which
is a small country.
The entire country, so thelandmass of New Jersey,
population of 400,000 people.
So you know, it's everybody,kind of knows everybody and you
know, I think that that's partof it.
I think that there's, you know,it's a very much a Catholic
(23:08):
nation and so you know, I thinkthat's a big part of it.
But these prison officers, Iwatch them.
I watch them seeing if they'rethoroughly searching the inmates
, the supervisors run around,but if I'm standing there I
would think that whatever theynormally do in their daily
practice, they'll do with mearound.
And I'm seeing them go throughthe steps.
(23:29):
I'm seeing them go through thesteps.
I'm seeing them hungry fortraining.
But to answer your question interms of equipment, so the
average prison officer wouldonly have a uniform, the QRT,
quick response team.
They're going to have pepperspray and handcuffs.
Now the inmates obviously arehandcuffed if they're taken back
and forth to court.
There's a special group thatwould have handcuffs for that.
(23:52):
And you had mentioned OC, oc,qrt.
They're the only people with OC, but what I learned was.
They didn't do any trainingwith it.
So for the last couple of years, every time I'm down, any new
officer that didn't previouslygo through my OC training goes
through it.
Every one of them gets sprayedand then I make them fight
through it.
Every one of them gets sprayedand then I make them, you know,
fight, you know through it for acouple minutes and and then you
(24:14):
know we'll, we'll light up awhole cell, you know with with
pepper spray and we'll have, youknow, somebody, cause if you
saw what a lack of equipment wasthere, you know, like in the
United States, you know we mightuse, you know, 150 pound dummy
that you know that was given toher that we paid for there.
That's not going to happen there.
It's going to be one of theother prison officers that's
role-playing and is laying there.
(24:34):
These guys got to go in there,you know, through the thick
pepper spray and evacuate themout, and so that's part of the
training that we do.
You know it.
You know it's to see these guysget so excited over this
training, especially when wewere doing the corrections
online training.
But it just, you know, it shows, you know that, the pride they
take in their job Now because itis low paying, we do lose a lot
(24:57):
.
So when we do the training, alot of them go to the military
or the police because they nowhave a training certificate.
Speaker 1 (25:03):
And so you mentioned law enforcement.
You mentioned them earlier.
Are they better funded downthere, and why is corrections?
No, they're kind of in the sameboat, they're making maybe a
dollar or two more an hour.
Speaker 2 (25:18):
Yeah, they're not doing, not making much.
And then you know the otherthing is transportation, right.
So even the prison officers,you know they'll be on a shift
for it's a pretty long time Ithink it's like a week.
You know they're sort'sbarracks, but then when it's
time to go home you'reconsidered rich.
If you have a vehicle in Belize, so I can think of maybe six
and they're all part ofmanagement that have vehicles.
(25:39):
So the other staff of 250people because there's 250 staff
members are basically going onthe bus, the bus system to get
home, which their home could befour hours from the prison
because it could be completelyon the bus.
You know the bus system to gethome, which their home could be
four hours from the prisonbecause you know it could be
completely on the opposite sideof the country, which is all
jungle roads.
So you know it, you know it.
Just it's amazing to me, and notto say that there's not
(26:00):
problems or our problems,there's problems in every prison
, but the level of problems andthe type of problems they're
having are not to the level thatI've read about in other
prisons, not just in CentralAmerica but around the world and
it's very much.
And one thing I like about itis you know there's no political
correctness in this prison.
There's no.
(26:21):
You know things just work downthere differently, right?
So punishment is strict, youknow there's I mean it's.
They call it tough love.
I wouldn't want tough love fromthat prison.
So I've seen what those ad-seccells look like.
But you know what it acts as adeterrent and the steps are in
place to maintain that integrityand there's zero tolerance for
(26:42):
lack of integrity or policyviolations.
And for these officers theywant this job because it's very
difficult to get work in theleagues.
Speaker 1 (26:54):
So is part of the reason this works.
The supervision Do you get totalk to supervisors?
Do you get to train them in anytype of leadership?
Is that even a factor?
Speaker 2 (27:05):
Right, great question .
So the leadership is really thebackbone of that prison.
So you know, I speak with themalmost at least the prison
director almost on a daily basis.
I spoke with him yesterday andspoke with him today.
But I advocate for the prison.
I speak on their local or theirnational news to advocate for
the prison, about how peopleneed to hire these convicted
(27:29):
inmates when they get out.
People need to hire theseconvicted inmates when they get
out.
If they don't have and we allknow this but if there's no
opportunity for them, they'regoing to go back into dealing
drugs, doing whatever it takesto feed their family.
The level of poverty is not wellunderstood in that area.
I don't think I know.
I didn't understand it.
So I went.
So about two years ago I saidokay, well, I went to the
(27:49):
inmates and I talked to probablymaybe a couple hundred over a
week and I said to them I saidokay, well, if the prison,
because I've been doing this awhile, the inmates all know me
and I've been told because inBelize most of the inmates are
(28:11):
gang members, right, so before Istarted going into the street,
I went to some of thesehigher-level gang guys and I
talked to them.
I said I'm willing to go intoyour community because your
family, your children, yourmother, your dad, they're living
in I don't even know how todescribe it, I mean shacks that
don't have roofs.
And I said I'm willing to goand basically, especially the
(28:33):
children, try to implement somementorship programs, implement
some different things to keepyour children from following
your steps.
Tell me what that looks like.
And so I've kind of opened upthat dialogue.
And then what I did was I wentand met with the prime minister
and I met with the minister ofhome affairs and others and I
basically outlined what theprison officers I'm sorry, the
(28:55):
prison inmates are saying thatled them to prison in their
country.
And you know, we're still inthe process of implementing
different change, but I can tellyou that I was told that the
gang members on the street willtake a bullet for me before they
let anything happen to me,because they know the work that
I'm doing and that's because theorders are coming from the gang
(29:18):
members that are incarcerated.
Speaker 1 (29:20):
Sure, I was really interested in the fact that you
mentioned there were Crips downthere and MS-13.
Of course, ms-13 is for us uphere.
That's more of a Mexican gang.
I don't know if it's all SouthAmerica or not, but some of
those are considered Americangangs.
Speaker 2 (29:39):
Well, here's how that happened.
So in the 80s and 90s, whenpeople from Belize were locked
up in Los Angeles and locked upin American prisons, they
learned gang life from ourprison gangs.
Then they took that with themback to Belize and, fortunately,
the streets of Belize, thesafest place in Belize, I always
tell people, the safest placein Belize, other than the
(30:00):
tourist areas, is the prison.
It truly is.
It truly is and it's because ofhow well that prison's run.
So, as far as the management,the prison director, he's been
at the prison since 2002, sincethe takeover of 2002, right, he
started, I think he was anaccountant, worked his way up.
Now he's the directorTechnically they called it the
CEO of the prison there and sohe's been with that program.
(30:23):
That Colby program that isbased on reintegration into
society, is faith-based, and sohe's been a part of it from the
very beginning and he, alongwith his management staff,
really are the backbone andbecause they are so strict, as I
work, they maintain suchstandards that their policy
(30:44):
violations, whether the staff orinmates, are going to be dealt
with very, very seriously.
It's to the point that peopleyou know they just don't mess
around with it.
Speaker 1 (30:53):
Well, and I mean I can absolutely get behind
thoughts like that what we dealwith in prison there's not black
and white, I mean there's notgray, it's black and white.
People get hurt if we don't doour jobs.
Inmates get hurt if they aren'tdoing what they're supposed to.
So I can understand that.
So what kind of support, or ifany, are you getting?
(31:16):
I know you've brought stufffrom America there.
You say it's a large Catholiccountry.
Does the Catholic Church getinvolved in bringing anything in
to help these guys, to mentoror ministry to them?
Speaker 2 (31:30):
There has been a lot of people that have come from
both the church and that havecome from the community, that
will come in and provide theselife skills training or, I'm
sorry, life skills training too,but also job skills training.
So a lot of people have donethat, and you know I don't know
how many from the United States,but you know, locally I see a
lot of people in there providingtraining and I articulate when
(31:51):
I go and I speak for the newsabout the prison, I explain to
them that to keep these peoplefrom going through your bedroom
window, breaking into your house, stealing so that they can eat,
we can provide a certificatethat says, hey, they've been
trained, they've receivedcertificates for accomplishments
(32:13):
with anger management, whateverthe issues are that brought
them to prison.
We're able to providecertificates that articulate.
Maybe it's plumbing, electrical, whatever job they were able to
do in the prison or learn.
We're advocating for them, forthe community to hire them, and
some are.
We also really push the inmatesto get into self-employment.
Now, self-employment therelooks like farming, it looks
(32:33):
like woodworking and sellingyour wood products to souvenir
stores.
That's what self-employmentmeans down there.
But it works, it works.
Speaker 1 (32:48):
So I noticed that we spoke just a tiny bit about this
, that you got to testify infront of Congress.
So what were you testifyingabout there?
Was that the human traffickingor was it the prison?
Speaker 2 (33:01):
Great question.
So now you know at this stagethis was probably 2023.
So now it's going there atleast quarterly, typically
monthly.
This is when we were doing theCorrections 1 Academy training.
So I kept going down there toattend their graduations and
hand out the diplomas andsomebody had reached out and
asked.
He said that he was a formergang member in Los Angeles and
(33:25):
he went to prison for murder.
He was a pretty prominent gangmember, went to prison in
California for murder, then wasdeported back to his home
country in Belize, and he askedif he could come in and speak to
the current gang members.
Not wild about the idea, but Ifigured we'll give him a shot.
So I brought him in and hespoke to about 500 gang members
(33:45):
about his life and articulatinghow you know, basically
advocating for getting out ofgang life, was his message.
And so, but afterwards I talkedto him and I said you know what
can you tell me?
You know cause the guy's beenrehabilitated.
You know the guy is, you knowhe did his time to 27 years in
prison and before gettingparoled.
And so I said what can you tellme that I don't know about
(34:10):
gangs, about all of it?
And so he opened up in a waythat no one else ever has to me,
and in particular, he talkedabout human trafficking, and so
that was already an area thatI've really been working hard on
.
So I wrote an article based thearticle's titled I'd have to
pull up the exact time butsomething to the effect of human
trafficking from a gangmember's perspective, and so I
(34:32):
published this article.
Well, I get an email from theUS Congressional Committee on
Homeland Security and they saidthey needed to speak with me,
and I thought I was in trouble,and I've had bad run-ins with
the embassy and the US embassyin Belize before, so I figured
there was some other other issueI got to deal with.
(34:53):
And so I really did think I wasin trouble.
And so they said that thedirector, the staff director,
wanted to meet with me, and sowe did a Zoom call and she was
reading my article out and she'slike we haven't heard any of
this.
Where are you getting this from?
And I explained well, he's notat the prison, but I met him
because he came into the prisonto speak and she said would you
be willing to testify beforeCongress about what you've
(35:15):
learned?
And I said absolutely, becausehe was a sex trafficker.
He was an enforcer in a sextrafficking house involving
people that are coming throughthe border, and so his
information was so detailed.
He was just describing to mewhat the sex trafficking houses
look like, what organ harvestinglooks like.
I mean, he has seen it, he'sseen it all firsthand and so,
(35:44):
ironically, him and I we alsostay in close communication and
he's not affiliated with theprison, he's just a citizen down
there, but he really still is awealth of knowledge and so when
I have teams that go down therelike I had a retired FBI agent
that came to provide training atthe prison, he was dying to
talk to them and sit down andjust talk to them about all
these different crazy things.
So it's kind of an interestingworld that only I think prison
(36:06):
officers would understand interms of these people are still
like the public doesn'tunderstand.
In terms of you know, thesepeople are still like the public
doesn't understand.
They don't understand that youknow if somebody goes to prison
for murder, you know thatthey're a soulless, you know
lifeless body that's.
You know that's just in thecell.
But you know these people, youknow, I've seen it.
You know they can berehabilitated they can, and you
know my faith is very importantto me so I look at it from a
(36:27):
Christian perspective.
But you know I've seen aredemption in people that you
know were at the time the worstof the worst, which he was
probably one of the worst peopleyou know that I've ever talked
to at the time, right, I mean hemurdered the guy he was buying
drugs from because he didn'twant to pay him.
Speaker 1 (36:45):
That's how he ended up in prison and I try with this
podcast to explain a little bitto the public.
But until you actually seethere's an entire world in there
that has different morals, thathas different ways of looking
at things and it's shocking.
And especially I mean I startedI came from a little country
(37:08):
town when I got hired intocorrections and even in America
it was a huge culture shock.
So I can't imagine seeing someof that.
They don't have.
They just don't have choicesbecause of the, the, how poor
they are down there, right.
Speaker 2 (37:24):
To explain how bad it is growing up.
So the so the gangs on thestreets, especially in Belize,
southside Belize City.
So if you were a child notaffiliated with gangs, but
you're a 12-year-old child andyou live on a particular block,
you are not permitted to go onto the next block over if it is
controlled by a rival gang.
If you do, it's murder.
There's no second chance.
(37:45):
And then now all of a sudden,we start having the clashes and
so now the gangs are allshooting up each other's houses.
What's interesting down therewhich I wish at times, I wish we
could do this is the gangviolence will rise.
So they'll have a state ofemergency.
Anyone that's registered everbeen registered as a gang member
(38:05):
automatic.
They get picked up, they're putinto prison, they start off.
I think it's 60 days and then,if there's continued to be gang
violence, they'll attack onanother 60 days and then, if
there's continued to be gangviolence, they'll tackle it in
another 60 days.
You know, I know there's somedefense attorneys in my area who
do process with that thing.
But I've seen it and what'samazing to me is, you know
there'll be times that it's toodangerous for me to go into the
(38:27):
poorest parts of the city and dothe food drives that I do, and
it's you know.
Then I know a state emergencyis coming and I'll actually wait
for it to happen.
They'll scoop up all the gangmembers, put it in the prison.
I'll go down to the food drive,then I'll go provide training
at the prison and I'm lookingaround and it's just as peaceful
here as it as it always is,because at the prison.
(38:48):
You know they're going to obeythe rules or pay the consequence
.
Speaker 1 (38:51):
The government's almost taking the gangs hostage,
aren't they?
Speaker 2 (38:56):
Yep, and so it's, yeah, it's I mean yeah, I'm okay
with it.
Speaker 1 (39:03):
You keep messing up, we'll keep tacking time on.
You'll never get them back.
Speaker 2 (39:06):
Right, Wow, Well, in El Salvador they do that.
So El Salvador, PresidentBukele.
He came in, built these megaprisons and went, and if
somebody was MS-13, they're inthere.
Whether they committed a crimeat the time or not, they're in
prison.
And he's getting a lot of heatfor that now because they've
been in there a while.
But it works in Central America.
That's what you do.
Speaker 1 (39:28):
Unfortunately so, and this is going to back up to
something you said early in thepodcast.
But I've always heard the termcartel ran prison.
Talk to me about what thatmeans, because for me, I mean, I
just have no concept of thisprison that's being ran by, I
guess, the gangs Right.
Speaker 2 (39:50):
And the officers are all outside Right.
So fortunately in Belize wedon't have cartels.
We have gangs, but any cartelactivity is not.
It's nothing compared to thescope of other countries.
I do a lot of work with thehuman trafficking stuff
involving cartels, so I spend alot of time on the border, a lot
of time in Mexico, and so I ampretty well-versed with the
cartel world.
I am pretty well versed withthe cartel world and in terms of
(40:15):
when they're half the prison,you know, they it.
You know there's actually aNetflix documentary.
It's that same documentaryworld's toughest prisons.
If you watch the Danley Hondurasvideo, you know it'll, it'll
show you what that, what thatlooks like.
Okay, so, yeah, so it, you knowit.
Basically, it's the prisonofficers.
You know they maintain theperimeter, you know, but it's
it's truly the cartel leadersthat are maintaining order
within the prison, and thatexists in different countries
(40:37):
throughout.
You know Central America, youknow it's, it's insane.
But you know, if you think abouthow much power the cartels have
.
And you know, I see it all thetime in Mexico, where I'll see
the cartels moving drugs ormoving people, and the Mexican
military, which is a bunch ofkids 18 to 22 year old kids are
just standing there.
I mean, I have drone footage ofthe Mexican military.
(41:00):
Well, mexican military lawenforcement, along with the
cartels you know, workingtogether and we had drones at
the job, and so you know theseguys in a country that's
controlled by cartelsfortunately, like I said, belize
doesn't have a cartel problembut you know, in countries that
they're really controlled bythese, these gangs or cartels
northern triangle, which is elsalvador, guatemala and honduras
el salvador is the currentexception, but, uh, guatemala
(41:24):
and honduras, you know it, 95 ofcrime goes unpunished.
So you know the people that arein there are the worst of the
worst and you know they havemuch more control than certainly
the prison officers.
But really, in some cases, insome areas, the government, you
know, to stay alive, politicians, are accepting the bribes of
(41:47):
these cartel guys.
Speaker 1 (41:50):
So in Belize, how's the sentencing, you know, is
there?
Is there death penalty?
Is life mean you're nevercoming out and hope's gone?
Are they handing out 40, 50, 60year sentences, or is there
hope?
Speaker 2 (42:03):
Yep, so fair question .
So what's different down thereabout here is that you can
easily be in prison for three,four, five years, maybe more,
before your case ever goes tocourt.
So they're on remand and thathappens all the time.
I would say somewhere around40% of the inmates are there on
(42:24):
remand, and so the court systemwas based on the old English
system because they were British.
British Honduras is what theold name of Belize used to be.
So their court system stillfollows this English process and
it's very antiquated.
(42:45):
If you get bail, most people inBelize aren't going to be able
to pay it.
So when COVID was a thing, ifpeople weren't wearing a mask
and they were given a $100 fineand they couldn't pay it, they,
when COVID was a thing, ifpeople weren't wearing a mask
and they were given a $100 fineand they couldn't pay it, they
were sitting in the prison formonths and then sometimes the
prison director would advocatefor them to be released.
And so the court system is notI speak highly of the prison,
(43:08):
but the court system.
It's really a mess.
It's a mess, but the courtsystem, it's really a mess.
It's a mess For these guys thatI've talked to that have been
there for years.
I definitely encourage you towatch the prison, the Belize
edition of the World's ToughestPrisons.
I'll look that up and we'll putit in the show notes.
Okay, perfect, exactly what Isaw is in that documentary.
(43:32):
What's interesting is thedocumentary was done by Raphael
(43:58):
Rowe, which is an atheist, buthe says right at the end
Ashcroft Rehabilitation Program.
Then they're given basicallythey're trustees Now they're
given a job.
So they know that any violationis going to basically cause
them to lose that job.
Then they're going back intototal isolation.
So they're very careful and Ithink that's part of why I'm
able to walk freely around theprison is the stakes are so high
for them to lose their freedom.
So you know, when I walk aroundthe prison, you know there's 50
(44:21):
, 100 trustees doing everything,mowing grass to, to do all the
prison stuff.
And you know I walk up to himand there's never, never even
been close to an issue.
And in fact, fact, my partner,my business partner, she's a
Hispanic female, little like5'5", 5'2", and she will walk
(44:41):
shoulder to shoulder with methroughout this prison, just her
and I, yeah, wow.
Speaker 1 (44:45):
Is it?
Yeah, and be safe, right, right.
So one of the big things withrehabilitation, of course, that
I've seen American system isfamily contact.
So I'm guessing they don't havephones inside the prison to
call family and family may nothave phones.
Do they get visiting?
They do, do they just do itthrough letters?
Speaker 2 (45:15):
generous visiting policy, so they have visitors
nonstop and it's interestingbecause the visitors have to go
through the same searchprocedures as the inmates and
then they're put into a chainlink room and they have.
So basically there's aplexiglass and they're able to
communicate through a hole inthe plexiglass, but they're
basically in a concrete on thefloor like a concrete bench and
then able to communicate withtheir loved ones there.
(45:36):
But yeah, that's very common.
You had asked about the deathpenalty.
So Belize part of the deal.
Whenever Colby Foundation tookover in 2002, they said they
didn't want to do the deathpenalty and that was one of the
concessions the government made.
Speaker 1 (45:48):
Okay, okay, so I guess where are you going from
here?
What is it that you're lookingto?
I'm sure you're wanting to helpmore down there.
What is it you're looking to doin the future?
Speaker 2 (46:01):
Great question.
The need for training neverends.
So what I'm hoping is to bringadditional people that want to
see this, that want tocontribute, that want to get
involved.
I encourage them to fact checkme.
They go and do all the researchonline, maybe reach out to the
prison director.
And you know, I've taken teams.
Now it's been going on fiveyears now that I've taken teams.
(46:22):
I have not taken one persondown there that did not say that
it changed it.
Every single person that tookdown there said it changes their
lives.
To see people you know, justwith so much pride but with so
little you know, and but stillto be working hard, to be so
eager and hungry for training.
Speaker 1 (46:40):
It's encouraging, yeah yeah, and I mean I don't
see it at that level, but I dotraining around the country and
when you go to the small jails,that don't you know, I worked at
the federal bureau of prisonston of money, ton of training.
But you go out here to somelittle county where they got
small jails and those people are, I mean, they're just focused
on you, they're just soaking upwhatever you can give them.
So I'm sure it's like that onlya thousand times more to have
(47:03):
those people down there.
Speaker 2 (47:05):
And also the inmates.
You know, sitting and talkingto these inmates, you know it's
not, you know it's not commonfor an American to be going in
there and investing time intothem by talking to them and the
training that I provide them.
You know anger management, howto be a father when you're
incarcerated, and it resonateswith them because no one they're
not receiving it otherwise.
So you know that's.
That's part of, I think, why Ihave the safety that I do down
(47:27):
there is, you know, these guys,these higher ranking gang
members, are the ones that I'mproviding training to.
So the word gets out then youknow to to leave me alone.
And you know, speaking of theguy, it was a former gang member
that went to prison inCalifornia.
You know he's told merepeatedly and you know he, you
know he's, he's on the streets,he knows that he goes, they know
(47:48):
who you are, but you knowthere's an order not to mess
with you.
He goes.
Speaker 1 (47:51):
They know who you are , but you know there's an order
not to mess with you.
Wow, that's amazing.
That's just amazing what you'veseen.
So what's the next?
So is this part of anorganization?
Is this just you, just me, Justyou, just you, okay?
So do you make phone calls andsay, hey, they need this, or how
(48:12):
do people help?
I guess is the next question,great question.
Speaker 2 (48:15):
So you know there are always needs.
You know, with every need youcan imagine the person could
have, they have it.
So you know it's.
You know there's really not.
Like you know I don't try tofundraise for the prison.
You know what I do is I try tofind a specific need that they
have at the time right.
So at one point, you know, theprison director, you know,
(48:35):
reached out and said you know wedon't have the budget for
prison officer uniforms.
So you know he was concernedbecause he's putting the new
officers out there on the yardwith inmates that some of which
don't have uniforms so you knowthat are in civilian clothes
that they showed up to theprison with, don't have uniforms
that are in civilian clothesthat they showed up to the
prison with.
(48:55):
So that is always one need isthe cloth for them to sew to
create their own uniforms.
So what I would say is anybodythat is interested in getting
involved in either maybe goingdown there and seeing it
firsthand or at least having adiscussion about what could be
done to support this prison, iswelcome to reach out to me.
I do have a company.
It's not affiliated with theprison, but I do human
(49:16):
trafficking consulting, and somy website is my last name, so
it's wwwsadulskicom, and anyonecan reach out to me from there
and we can address, we can geton the phone with the prison
director and talk about thespecific needs of the day.
Speaker 1 (49:33):
Interesting.
Wow, that's just fascinating.
I can't even picture it.
I've been 30 years incorrections and I can't even
picture some of the stuff thatyou're telling me.
Speaker 2 (49:44):
So if we could put in the notes.
So I've written a lot ofarticles and I've taken a lot of
pictures and so maybe we caninclude those in the notes
because you know it'll walkthrough, you know really the
years of this work and it'llinclude the pictures of how the
prison was and how the prison istoday.
Speaker 1 (50:02):
Yeah, no, we can absolutely do that and, along
with your contact information,and, and uh, I'll look up the
the uh websites for these uh uhvideos here so that people can
get an idea and watch thosedocumentaries.
Thank you very much, justamazing.
Anything else you want to tellus?
Speaker 2 (50:19):
Nope, I just want to thank the corrections officers
that are listening.
It's sometime the forgottenpillar of the criminal justice
system, but it is certainlyequally as important and it's an
honorable profession, and youguys certainly have my support.
Speaker 1 (50:34):
Well, thank you very much.
I appreciate everything you'redoing down there for them
because I have brothers aroundthe world.
We're still brothers andsisters.
We all do the same job in someform.
Some of them don't have as much, some of them have more, so
thank you for being on here.
Absolutely Thanks for theopportunity.
Let's check back in in a yearand see what's changed down
(50:56):
there and you can talk some moreabout it.
That'd be great, thank you.
Have a great day.
Thank you.
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One of the most dangerous timesfor officers is during cell
(00:22):
extractions.
One of the most dangerous timesfor officers is during cell
extractions.
Pepperball allows officers torespond with the lowest level of
force and still be effectiveand ready if the situation
escalates.
The responding officer controlswhere the projectiles are aimed
, how many projectiles arelaunched and how rapidly they're
deployed.
This allows the response to betailored to the moment.
(00:43):
To learn more about Pepperball,go to wwwpepperballcom or click
the link below in the show'sinformation guide.
Pepperball is the safer optionfirst.
Well, hello and welcome back tothe Prison Officer Podcast.
My name is Mike Cantrell.
Today I've got Dr JaredSadulski.
He's a criminologist thatfocuses on the most pressing
(01:04):
issues in criminal justice.
Jared has over two decades offederal law enforcement
experience and for the past fiveyears he's been leading teams
to a prison in Central America.
These teams provide the onlytraining that the prison
officers receive down there.
In addition to that, he's beenproviding training on prison
operations, involved in thevarious rehabilitation programs
(01:27):
and he's been working directlywith the inmates to provide
trade skills training, lifeskills training.
His experiences have led him toeven testify before Congress
this year, so really excited tohave him on the program.
As most of you know, I'vementioned it before.
Have him on the program as mostof you know, I've mentioned it
before One of the things Ididn't know or I knew, but I
(01:47):
just didn't realize how globalCorrections is until I started
this podcast.
We have listeners from 61different countries, so when I
had the opportunity to talk toJared here and hear about what
he's seen down there in CentralAmerica, I just jumped on it.
So welcome to the PrisonOfficer Podcast, jared.
Thank you for the opportunityto be here.
Yeah, I'm really excited aboutthis.
(02:09):
I'd like to back up before westart and get into the prison
stuff.
Tell me a little bit aboutyourself, where you grew up, how
you got into law enforcement,that type of stuff.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
Sure.
So I grew up in SouthwestFlorida, sarasota County,
florida.
I joined the Coast Guard at 18.
That gave me some exposure tolaw enforcement.
So ultimately I made thattransition after my enlistment
and I did federal lawenforcement as well as local law
enforcement and getting to theend of that career I decided to
continue in criminal justice.
I went and pursued my PhD,became a criminologist and the
(02:44):
area that I studied the most ishuman trafficking.
Speaker 1 (02:47):
So that's ultimately what led me to Central America
to find the prison Right rightand human trafficking and
corrections often in many partsof the world go together.
They're intertwined.
The criminal, the crime excuseme about that, the crime, you
know, uh, the a lot of theinmates, drug trafficking and
(03:09):
stuff like that those areinterconnected.
So that's interesting that yougot involved in that.
So did that just come out ofthe blue?
How did you end up getting thechance to go to Central America?
Speaker 2 (03:20):
Great question.
So I was invited to come to theuh, come to Belize, in Central
America, which is anEnglish-speaking nation, the
only English-speaking nation inCentral America, and I was
invited to go speak to theirgovernment on counter-human
trafficking and counter-drugtrafficking.
So the event was kind ofturning into a big deal for me.
It was right after I finishedthe PhD and it was one of my
first main speaking events, andthe host, which is a university,
(03:45):
invited all of these differentpeople to come hear me speak the
Belize Coast Guard, customs,immigration.
And just before the trip Iwatched this Netflix documentary
titled World's Toughest Prisonsthe Belize edition.
And it was about two daysbefore the trip and what I saw
was just so unbelievable in thatdocumentary that when I saw the
(04:06):
prison director was on the listof people to hear me speak, I
reached out and asked if I couldget a tour of his prison and
not a request he gets very oftenbut he said sure, and what I
saw shocked me, wow.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
So my next question is tell me what you saw.
Well, so my next question istell me what you saw.
Yeah, I mean, I've seen stufffrom Central America where
there's prisons down there thatthey don't feed and stuff like
we do.
If your family doesn't bringfood to the gate, you don't get
anything.
Is it at that level?
Tell me what you saw.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
Right.
So, to put in perspective, sothe prison.
So I started doing someresearch after the documentary.
The prison to Belize is south,so there's only one prison in
the nation of Belize.
So the prison to the South isDanly, honduras.
Now that prison is completelycartel run, so the staff and the
prison officers maintain aperimeter around the prison, but
it's actually the cartels thatare controlling operations
(05:00):
within the prison.
In the prison to the north,until December of 2018, until
the Mexican military had to comein the prison to the north,
which is Chetumal, mexico was inthe same situation, where the
cartels were controlling thedaily operations in the prison.
Then you have bullies.
So when I watched thisdocumentary, it was so
(05:22):
unbelievable.
So I saw what existed in thedocumentary.
I saw firsthand.
The first thing I saw when Ipulled up to the prison gates
were 25 inmates with machetescutting down grass outside of
the prison across the street,with one guard that looked half
asleep.
And I'm watching this.
And so then I go in and this isa poor prison in a poor country
.
They receive $9 per day perinmate in operating costs and
(05:56):
yet they have one of the lowestfree offending rates in the
world.
Right, the prison was indeplorable conditions.
There was not running water inall of the facilities.
They were housing adults withjuveniles.
Oh man, they were constantlyhaving escapes, guards were
bringing in drugs, sometimesfirearms, and so it was so bad
(06:17):
that a businessman was buildingthe street in front of the
prison and he said, regardlessof what they've done, nobody
should live in that condition.
He reached out to the primeminister about the deplorable
conditions and the primeminister said well, if you're
concerned, why don't you takeover management of the prison?
So his name was John Woods andwhat he did was he was a
Rotarian in Belize.
He went to the other Rotarians.
They formed this ColbyFoundation, which is after
(06:41):
what's a Rotarian?
I didn't yep, so a rotarian.
So it's basically the rotaryyou know is is a?
Uh, we have them in the unitedstates and they're uh global
rotary club rotary, right, okay,okay, sorry, no, no problem.
So he went to his local rotaryand they formed this colby
foundation, which was namedafter a catholic priest that uh
sacrificed his life for somebodyelse in World War II in Germany
(07:06):
.
So they developed this programand they came in and they said
that if they're going to takeover management of the prison,
that it has to be done their way, which the government agreed to
.
First thing they did was theylet go of all the staff and they
brought new people in, and thenthey started building out the
prison to where the conditionsimproved.
They separated the adults fromthe juveniles and ultimately the
(07:29):
prison is on 220 acres of land,and so they're able to be
self-sustaining in that they'reable to farm, they have poultry,
they have agriculture, so 60%of the food that's served at the
prison is actually from theprison grounds.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
That's not unusual.
I mean many states, includingMissouri, Tennessee, Mississippi
that's the way they used totake care of the prisons.
The inmates made their own food, so that's not unusual.
It's a good program, so itshows this.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
Right, that's not unusual.
It's a good program, so itshows this Right.
So for me, I go in there andI'm standing on the second floor
and I was with the director andI was looking out over the yard
and there were a group playingsoccer together and he told me
the director told me.
He said that's Bloods Crips andMS-13 on the streets.
They kill each other here inthe prison they play soccer
together.
So I just was so amazed by whatI had saw.
(08:25):
And so we go, and now we'rewalking the grounds and I've got
inmates everywhere.
They're walking around me andI'd never been in a prison in my
life.
I knew nothing about prisonsfive years ago and I was
completely shocked at what I wasseeing.
And he explained that they havea variance between 9% and 14%
(08:46):
recidivism rate, which is one ofthe lowest that I'm aware of in
the world.
And yet they do that onreceiving $9 per day per inmate
for management of the prison.
Compared to last I checked,which is about five years ago, I
think we're looking at like$100 per day per inmate,
according to a study that I'veread in the United States.
So here they are doing thiswith only 10% of what prisons
(09:09):
are receiving in the UnitedStates and people aren't coming
back.
And so the first question Iasked was how?
Why?
So we go into a section of theprison that's a rehabilitation
ward area and I walk in there.
There's 30 inmates in there,there's no prison officers.
There's the director that'swith me, there's a counselor
(09:30):
that's in there, and I walk intothis room and you got a picture
of Belize Central Prison.
It doesn't have the modernluxuries of a regular prison in
a first world country.
So I'm looking around, thewalls haven't been painted in
years, it's concrete, theflooring is all just concrete
(09:53):
and there's no air conditioning.
I mean, it has electricity insome parts.
In some parts of the prison itdoes, others it doesn't.
And so I'm in there and I walkinto this room and I'm looking
and I'm surrounded by inmates.
They kind of put me in themiddle for some reason.
And the counselor said to theinmates he said you know, we're
going to have this counselingsession.
(10:13):
Does anybody, any of theinmates, want to start this
counseling session off in prayer?
And I'm thinking to myself okay, I'm in a third world prison in
a third world country, what amI doing?
And so this one inmate raiseshis hand and third world country
.
What am I doing?
And so this one inmate raiseshis hand and so I don't know if
I'm supposed to close my eyes.
I don't know what to do.
So I'm just kind of shocked.
Standing there and I listenedto the prison inmate which was
in there, convicted for murder,and during his prayer he said I
(10:34):
want to ask for God's blessingon the visitor.
And then it hit me he's askingfor God's blessing on me.
Here I am in this prison andthis inmate is asking for God's
blessing on me and the rest ofthe tour.
I just kept going back to that.
And I came back to the UnitedStates and I knew there was
something I needed to do, and soI reached out to the director
and I said what do you need?
(10:55):
And he said well, we need basictoiletries, we need basic,
basic supplies.
And he explained to me thebudget and the challenges they
were having.
So I rallied the troops and wewent and we filled up two
shipping containers and had itsent to Belize, or sent items to
shipping containers to meetvery basic needs Cloth so that
the inmates can sew to maketheir own uniforms.
(11:17):
So we're not sending uniforms,we're sending cloth, because
that's the level that they're at.
I still was unsettled, and so Ireached back out to the director
and I said well, is thereanything else?
And he said, well, we don'treceive any training.
So when somebody is hired,they're put out in the yard.
The only training they'rereceiving is from the person,
(11:37):
the prison officer, standingnext to them.
There was absolutely no formaltraining or even a training
manual or training programwithin the prison at the time,
and so I thought, well, let mesee if I can find somebody
that's an expert in corrections,has some corrections experience
, that will go down and providetraining.
As hard as I looked, I couldn'tfind anybody.
I mean, people would go, butthey want five or 10 grand.
(11:58):
I don't blame them, but I'masking them to go and even pay
their own expenses.
And so I couldn't find anybody.
I was still unsettled, so Idecided that I can't let this go
.
So what I did was I startedgoing into corrections
facilities here in my home stateof Florida and I explained to
the prison wardens and everybodythat would listen to me hey, I
just need to learn and then I'llgo down and deliver this
(12:21):
training.
So the first training that theyhad asked for was riots,
escapes and hostage-takingsituations, which are realities
in any prison right.
So that was what I focused on.
I went to three differentcorrections facilities, prisons
here in Florida.
I got manuals, I talked totheir tactical teams, I talked
to you know, basically some ofthe facilities would really open
(12:41):
up and give me everything thatI needed and basically let me
sit in on their training so thatI could go and replicate that
training.
So I went down there in Januaryof 2020, at this point, when I
provided the first training onriots, escapes and
hostage-staking situations,covid hit.
There were some problems in theprison right.
No longer allowed to see theirfamily members, they were on
(13:03):
lockdown for months and thatresulted of the guards in the
cells having them call outwhenever the radio calls would
(13:31):
come to report that everythingwas normal.
They waited for nightfall andthey escaped.
Now, as terrible as all that isand I'm not crediting the
training, but I will say not oneprison officer died and that
was the focus of the trainingsurvival, and so the last escape
was that particular one.
So they have not had an escapenow in four years, which, for
(13:54):
having no budget and the fencewas blown down after a hurricane
in 2023, and yet they've had noescapes.
So that was a very isolatedincident and you know, but it
really motivated me.
So, through COVID, all the wayto today in fact, I'll be there
next week I have been takingteams.
Now, now that you know, thishas kind of gained some
(14:15):
attention, I've been able tofind people that are willing to
go and we've been providingtraining now for several years.
Corrections One Academy.
I reached out to those folksand explained to them what I'm
doing and I said you know,they've never had anything close
to an online training academy.
You know, is this somethingthat you would partner with me
on?
And they did.
You know, they gave me a dealand we ended up graduating.
(14:37):
You know, the vast majority oftheir staff Wow, and that's the
first time they've receivedformalized training.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
That Wow, and that's the first time they've received
formalized training.
That's great, that's amazing.
So for those of us that haven'tbeen there, let's back up a
little bit.
Describe the prison to me,because I've got a bunch of
correctional officers I know,like myself, that are sitting
there trying to imagine whatthis looks like.
So are we talking, are therebars and cells?
Are they double bunked, triplebunked?
(15:04):
Are you talking tiers, multipletiers?
Do they have pods?
Is it bays, that type of stuff?
Describe that prison to me,okay.
Speaker 2 (15:13):
So when you walk in, there's the control center and
you know they're basically allthe inmates you know come
through there, and so from therethey hit the first checkpoint
where they're searched.
And then as you walk into theprison, setting to the left is a
large auditorium and there'sprobably about nine different
cell buildings.
(15:33):
And so when you walk into themain door, which is, I think
they call it a rickets Does thatsound right?
That's what they call it downthere.
So basically, you know, likethe bars of the doors, you know
like what I would typicallyexpect to see in a prison.
So they have that it's rusted,it's unpainted, and you walk in
(15:54):
concrete floors, concrete walls,and you walk in and there's
probably 30, there's two wingsand there's probably maybe the
prison house houses.
The current population is 1100,but I think it's built for like
2000 or something.
So it's one of the few prisonsI've heard of that is not
overcrowded.
So a lot of these wings are notactually even occupied, I
(16:15):
should say a lot.
Some of them are not.
So looking into the cell, youknow what you would see is all
concrete.
You know the walls, theflooring there they do.
It is double bunked and in andin places that it's not, in
places that it's not, whichwould be the what they call it.
They call it theiradministrative segregation.
(16:36):
So the people that break theprison rules, right, they are
sent to total deprivation iswhat I would call it.
And there's no electricity,there's no beds.
You know, if you don't want tolay on the ground, you could tie
a sheet to the metal bar of thedoor, to the window, because
the window's metal bars.
And you know, and that's whatit is, and as harsh as that
(16:57):
sounds, that's a much bettercondition than being in the
prisons.
And the neighboring countries.
You know, go to a prison inGuatemala.
A prison in El Salvador wouldbe the exception, but you know,
if you look at Honduras, forexample, you know these are
luxuries.
Adseg in Belize is a luxurycompared to these other prisons,
to where at least they're safe.
Right, we don't have at theBelize Central Prison you're not
(17:18):
having violence among inmates.
You know, even though theconditions are rough because
it's a poor country, the peopleare fed All of these standards
and they go by, I think, the UNstandards they're all met.
They are recognized as a prisonthat is operating without any
meaningful budget, in a powerfulway and doing amazing things,
(17:42):
and so what we've been doing thelast couple of years is trying
to, you know, help improve theconditions the best that we can
at the prison, right, so if Ican take people down there that
you know have constructionskills, that have different
skills, that we can help, youknow, strengthen the conditions
in the prison, you know we'reall for it.
Now, you know I will say that,you know, in the programs.
(18:03):
So if we go back to thatrehabilitation program so it's
called Ashcroft RehabilitationProgram and basically it's a, I
think it's a, I want to say a90-day program, and you know
they're receiving counselingevery day and they're staying
together.
So the same room that they aredoing the training and during
the day is the same room they'resleeping in, so and it's just
(18:26):
basically a big, a big bay, okay, and in that you know they have
, they have single beds and youknow it's, you know it.
You know on the outside itlooks, it looks, you know it
looks like a prison in the thirdworld country.
But you know, these guysthey're happy to be in these
programs because they'rereceiving life skills training.
These guys they're happy to bein these programs because
(18:47):
they're receiving life skillstraining.
They're receiving training ontrade skills and what to do when
they get out.
And I could give you story afterstory of people that I've come
across in that community that assoon as I tell them that I'm
down there because I'm providingtraining at the prison, oh, I
was in the prison X amount ofyears ago.
And I always say well, what doyou think of the prison?
And every single person thatI've spoken to that was
sentenced in that prison speakshighly of it.
(19:07):
They say that it changed mylife, it straightened me out, it
got me off drugs, and I meaneverybody from the taxi driver
to the tour guide it seems likeeverybody has been to that
prison.
I mean, it's not true, noteverybody hasn't been there, but
it's amazing to me how manypeople I've come across that
have that haven't gone back.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
Yeah, so talk to me about the prison officers.
I know when I've seen, you know, prisons in some other
countries, sometimes there's areally high female ratio to the
male inmates.
You know, even with when I wasdown on the border, I saw a
(19:46):
prison that was a maleinstitution.
It was almost entirely femaleofficers.
So is it that way?
What's the officer carrying?
Do they have cuffs?
Do they have a baton?
Do they have OC?
Tell me about what theofficer's day is like.
Great question.
Speaker 2 (20:02):
So I spend a lot of time with them and I've gotten
to know them and it really Ican't think of a better word
than inspires me.
So this prison, they have a lotof things in place to maintain
these standards, right?
So drug testing, they're alwaysdrug testing, both the staff
and the inmates.
Recently they did a sweep wherethey had the police come in
(20:23):
with dogs.
They pulled every inmate out ofthe cells, put them in the main
auditorium, had the dogs gothrough every cell.
There was no, I'm sorry I'm notanswering your question, but
I'll get to it.
No, you're fine.
So they put, basically, theydid a surprise search and they
brought in the dogs, went allthrough the prison.
It was like midnight, two inthe morning, so nobody would
have seen this coming and theydid not find any drugs in that
(20:45):
prison.
I'm not saying the drugs don'texist in that prison, because
they do, and there's a coupleincidents a year because I read
the annual reports of where theyare finding people, where they
are popping positive on a drugtest, but for those dogs to go
through those cells and not tohave found drugs or weapons.
They also searched, obviously,for weapons and that, and with
(21:06):
1,000 inmates and basicallybeing able to go through there
and not finding any major prisonviolations really speaks
volumes to how this prison isoperated.
And to answer your question, soif these guys are hungry for
training, if there's a period oftime where I don't go, because
I try to go once a quarter, andif there's time that I'm getting
six, seven months there, I'mhearing from them, they're
(21:27):
contacting me on the phone.
They're asking for training.
Seven months there, I'm hearingfrom them, they're contacting
by the phone, they're asking fortraining.
And it is inspiring to me thata prison officer that is being
paid last I checked, which isprobably about a year ago, $2.50
an hour, starting off yetmaintains his integrity,
maintains basically follows theprocedures that are in place.
(21:50):
And this prison operates insuch a good manner that I as an
American, walk freely throughevery aspect of that prison by
myself, and had I tried thatbefore 2002, I would be taken as
a bargaining chip against thegovernment here.
When I'm there next week I willwalk through the different
(22:12):
sections of the prison and notthink twice about it, and in
Central America that's unheardof.
Speaker 1 (22:17):
I wouldn't recommend you do it in a penitentiary in
America.
Wow, People have to go throughtraining before they're even
thought about and most of themare going to be escorted through
our prisons with an officer.
So, yeah, that says somethingabout just the.
I don't know, Is it the theintegrity, the the willingness
(22:40):
to help, because they're allkind of in the same low income?
Speaker 2 (22:45):
system, right.
So part of it is the size ofthe country, right, so the size
of the country is a populationof around 400,000 people, which
is a small country.
The entire country, so thelandmass of New Jersey,
population of 400,000 people.
So you know, it's everybody,kind of knows everybody and you
know, I think that that's partof it.
I think that there's, you know,it's a very much a Catholic
(23:08):
nation and so you know, I thinkthat's a big part of it.
But these prison officers, Iwatch them.
I watch them seeing if they'rethoroughly searching the inmates
, the supervisors run around,but if I'm standing there I
would think that whatever theynormally do in their daily
practice, they'll do with mearound.
And I'm seeing them go throughthe steps.
(23:29):
I'm seeing them go through thesteps.
I'm seeing them hungry fortraining.
But to answer your question interms of equipment, so the
average prison officer wouldonly have a uniform, the QRT,
quick response team.
They're going to have pepperspray and handcuffs.
Now the inmates obviously arehandcuffed if they're taken back
and forth to court.
There's a special group thatwould have handcuffs for that.
(23:52):
And you had mentioned OC, oc,qrt.
They're the only people with OC, but what I learned was.
They didn't do any trainingwith it.
So for the last couple of years, every time I'm down, any new
officer that didn't previouslygo through my OC training goes
through it.
Every one of them gets sprayedand then I make them fight
through it.
Every one of them gets sprayedand then I make them, you know,
fight, you know through it for acouple minutes and and then you
(24:14):
know we'll, we'll light up awhole cell, you know with with
pepper spray and we'll have, youknow, somebody, cause if you
saw what a lack of equipment wasthere, you know, like in the
United States, you know we mightuse, you know, 150 pound dummy
that you know that was given toher that we paid for there.
That's not going to happen there.
It's going to be one of theother prison officers that's
role-playing and is laying there.
(24:34):
These guys got to go in there,you know, through the thick
pepper spray and evacuate themout, and so that's part of the
training that we do.
You know it.
You know it's to see these guysget so excited over this
training, especially when wewere doing the corrections
online training.
But it just, you know, it shows, you know that, the pride they
take in their job Now because itis low paying, we do lose a lot
(24:57):
.
So when we do the training, alot of them go to the military
or the police because they nowhave a training certificate.
Speaker 1 (25:03):
And so you mentioned law enforcement.
You mentioned them earlier.
Are they better funded downthere, and why is corrections?
No, they're kind of in the sameboat, they're making maybe a
dollar or two more an hour.
Speaker 2 (25:18):
Yeah, they're not doing, not making much.
And then you know the otherthing is transportation, right.
So even the prison officers,you know they'll be on a shift
for it's a pretty long time Ithink it's like a week.
You know they're sort'sbarracks, but then when it's
time to go home you'reconsidered rich.
If you have a vehicle in Belize, so I can think of maybe six
and they're all part ofmanagement that have vehicles.
(25:39):
So the other staff of 250people because there's 250 staff
members are basically going onthe bus, the bus system to get
home, which their home could befour hours from the prison
because it could be completelyon the bus.
You know the bus system to gethome, which their home could be
four hours from the prisonbecause you know it could be
completely on the opposite sideof the country, which is all
jungle roads.
So you know it, you know it.
Just it's amazing to me, and notto say that there's not
(26:00):
problems or our problems,there's problems in every prison
, but the level of problems andthe type of problems they're
having are not to the level thatI've read about in other
prisons, not just in CentralAmerica but around the world and
it's very much.
And one thing I like about itis you know there's no political
correctness in this prison.
There's no.
(26:21):
You know things just work downthere differently, right?
So punishment is strict, youknow there's I mean it's.
They call it tough love.
I wouldn't want tough love fromthat prison.
So I've seen what those ad-seccells look like.
But you know what it acts as adeterrent and the steps are in
place to maintain that integrityand there's zero tolerance for
(26:42):
lack of integrity or policyviolations.
And for these officers theywant this job because it's very
difficult to get work in theleagues.
Speaker 1 (26:54):
So is part of the reason this works.
The supervision Do you get totalk to supervisors?
Do you get to train them in anytype of leadership?
Is that even a factor?
Speaker 2 (27:05):
Right, great question .
So the leadership is really thebackbone of that prison.
So you know, I speak with themalmost at least the prison
director almost on a daily basis.
I spoke with him yesterday andspoke with him today.
But I advocate for the prison.
I speak on their local or theirnational news to advocate for
the prison, about how peopleneed to hire these convicted
(27:29):
inmates when they get out.
People need to hire theseconvicted inmates when they get
out.
If they don't have and we allknow this but if there's no
opportunity for them, they'regoing to go back into dealing
drugs, doing whatever it takesto feed their family.
The level of poverty is not wellunderstood in that area.
I don't think I know.
I didn't understand it.
So I went.
So about two years ago I saidokay, well, I went to the
(27:49):
inmates and I talked to probablymaybe a couple hundred over a
week and I said to them I saidokay, well, if the prison,
because I've been doing this awhile, the inmates all know me
and I've been told because inBelize most of the inmates are
(28:11):
gang members, right, so before Istarted going into the street,
I went to some of thesehigher-level gang guys and I
talked to them.
I said I'm willing to go intoyour community because your
family, your children, yourmother, your dad, they're living
in I don't even know how todescribe it, I mean shacks that
don't have roofs.
And I said I'm willing to goand basically, especially the
(28:33):
children, try to implement somementorship programs, implement
some different things to keepyour children from following
your steps.
Tell me what that looks like.
And so I've kind of opened upthat dialogue.
And then what I did was I wentand met with the prime minister
and I met with the minister ofhome affairs and others and I
basically outlined what theprison officers I'm sorry, the
(28:55):
prison inmates are saying thatled them to prison in their
country.
And you know, we're still inthe process of implementing
different change, but I can tellyou that I was told that the
gang members on the street willtake a bullet for me before they
let anything happen to me,because they know the work that
I'm doing and that's because theorders are coming from the gang
(29:18):
members that are incarcerated.
Speaker 1 (29:20):
Sure, I was really interested in the fact that you
mentioned there were Crips downthere and MS-13.
Of course, ms-13 is for us uphere.
That's more of a Mexican gang.
I don't know if it's all SouthAmerica or not, but some of
those are considered Americangangs.
Speaker 2 (29:39):
Well, here's how that happened.
So in the 80s and 90s, whenpeople from Belize were locked
up in Los Angeles and locked upin American prisons, they
learned gang life from ourprison gangs.
Then they took that with themback to Belize and, fortunately,
the streets of Belize, thesafest place in Belize, I always
tell people, the safest placein Belize, other than the
(30:00):
tourist areas, is the prison.
It truly is.
It truly is and it's because ofhow well that prison's run.
So, as far as the management,the prison director, he's been
at the prison since 2002, sincethe takeover of 2002, right, he
started, I think he was anaccountant, worked his way up.
Now he's the directorTechnically they called it the
CEO of the prison there and sohe's been with that program.
(30:23):
That Colby program that isbased on reintegration into
society, is faith-based, and sohe's been a part of it from the
very beginning and he, alongwith his management staff,
really are the backbone andbecause they are so strict, as I
work, they maintain suchstandards that their policy
(30:44):
violations, whether the staff orinmates, are going to be dealt
with very, very seriously.
It's to the point that peopleyou know they just don't mess
around with it.
Speaker 1 (30:53):
Well, and I mean I can absolutely get behind
thoughts like that what we dealwith in prison there's not black
and white, I mean there's notgray, it's black and white.
People get hurt if we don't doour jobs.
Inmates get hurt if they aren'tdoing what they're supposed to.
So I can understand that.
So what kind of support, or ifany, are you getting?
(31:16):
I know you've brought stufffrom America there.
You say it's a large Catholiccountry.
Does the Catholic Church getinvolved in bringing anything in
to help these guys, to mentoror ministry to them?
Speaker 2 (31:30):
There has been a lot of people that have come from
both the church and that havecome from the community, that
will come in and provide theselife skills training or, I'm
sorry, life skills training too,but also job skills training.
So a lot of people have donethat, and you know I don't know
how many from the United States,but you know, locally I see a
lot of people in there providingtraining and I articulate when
(31:51):
I go and I speak for the newsabout the prison, I explain to
them that to keep these peoplefrom going through your bedroom
window, breaking into your house, stealing so that they can eat,
we can provide a certificatethat says, hey, they've been
trained, they've receivedcertificates for accomplishments
(32:13):
with anger management, whateverthe issues are that brought
them to prison.
We're able to providecertificates that articulate.
Maybe it's plumbing, electrical, whatever job they were able to
do in the prison or learn.
We're advocating for them, forthe community to hire them, and
some are.
We also really push the inmatesto get into self-employment.
Now, self-employment therelooks like farming, it looks
(32:33):
like woodworking and sellingyour wood products to souvenir
stores.
That's what self-employmentmeans down there.
But it works, it works.
Speaker 1 (32:48):
So I noticed that we spoke just a tiny bit about this
, that you got to testify infront of Congress.
So what were you testifyingabout there?
Was that the human traffickingor was it the prison?
Speaker 2 (33:01):
Great question.
So now you know at this stagethis was probably 2023.
So now it's going there atleast quarterly, typically
monthly.
This is when we were doing theCorrections 1 Academy training.
So I kept going down there toattend their graduations and
hand out the diplomas andsomebody had reached out and
asked.
He said that he was a formergang member in Los Angeles and
(33:25):
he went to prison for murder.
He was a pretty prominent gangmember, went to prison in
California for murder, then wasdeported back to his home
country in Belize, and he askedif he could come in and speak to
the current gang members.
Not wild about the idea, but Ifigured we'll give him a shot.
So I brought him in and hespoke to about 500 gang members
(33:45):
about his life and articulatinghow you know, basically
advocating for getting out ofgang life, was his message.
And so, but afterwards I talkedto him and I said you know what
can you tell me?
You know cause the guy's beenrehabilitated.
You know the guy is, you knowhe did his time to 27 years in
prison and before gettingparoled.
And so I said what can you tellme that I don't know about
(34:10):
gangs, about all of it?
And so he opened up in a waythat no one else ever has to me,
and in particular, he talkedabout human trafficking, and so
that was already an area thatI've really been working hard on
.
So I wrote an article based thearticle's titled I'd have to
pull up the exact time butsomething to the effect of human
trafficking from a gangmember's perspective, and so I
(34:32):
published this article.
Well, I get an email from theUS Congressional Committee on
Homeland Security and they saidthey needed to speak with me,
and I thought I was in trouble,and I've had bad run-ins with
the embassy and the US embassyin Belize before, so I figured
there was some other other issueI got to deal with.
(34:53):
And so I really did think I wasin trouble.
And so they said that thedirector, the staff director,
wanted to meet with me, and sowe did a Zoom call and she was
reading my article out and she'slike we haven't heard any of
this.
Where are you getting this from?
And I explained well, he's notat the prison, but I met him
because he came into the prisonto speak and she said would you
be willing to testify beforeCongress about what you've
(35:15):
learned?
And I said absolutely, becausehe was a sex trafficker.
He was an enforcer in a sextrafficking house involving
people that are coming throughthe border, and so his
information was so detailed.
He was just describing to mewhat the sex trafficking houses
look like, what organ harvestinglooks like.
I mean, he has seen it, he'sseen it all firsthand and so,
(35:44):
ironically, him and I we alsostay in close communication and
he's not affiliated with theprison, he's just a citizen down
there, but he really still is awealth of knowledge and so when
I have teams that go down therelike I had a retired FBI agent
that came to provide training atthe prison, he was dying to
talk to them and sit down andjust talk to them about all
these different crazy things.
So it's kind of an interestingworld that only I think prison
(36:06):
officers would understand interms of these people are still
like the public doesn'tunderstand.
In terms of you know, thesepeople are still like the public
doesn't understand.
They don't understand that youknow if somebody goes to prison
for murder, you know thatthey're a soulless, you know
lifeless body that's.
You know that's just in thecell.
But you know these people, youknow, I've seen it.
You know they can berehabilitated they can, and you
know my faith is very importantto me so I look at it from a
(36:27):
Christian perspective.
But you know I've seen aredemption in people that you
know were at the time the worstof the worst, which he was
probably one of the worst peopleyou know that I've ever talked
to at the time, right, I mean hemurdered the guy he was buying
drugs from because he didn'twant to pay him.
Speaker 1 (36:45):
That's how he ended up in prison and I try with this
podcast to explain a little bitto the public.
But until you actually seethere's an entire world in there
that has different morals, thathas different ways of looking
at things and it's shocking.
And especially I mean I startedI came from a little country
(37:08):
town when I got hired intocorrections and even in America
it was a huge culture shock.
So I can't imagine seeing someof that.
They don't have.
They just don't have choicesbecause of the, the, how poor
they are down there, right.
Speaker 2 (37:24):
To explain how bad it is growing up.
So the so the gangs on thestreets, especially in Belize,
southside Belize City.
So if you were a child notaffiliated with gangs, but
you're a 12-year-old child andyou live on a particular block,
you are not permitted to go onto the next block over if it is
controlled by a rival gang.
If you do, it's murder.
There's no second chance.
(37:45):
And then now all of a sudden,we start having the clashes and
so now the gangs are allshooting up each other's houses.
What's interesting down therewhich I wish at times, I wish we
could do this is the gangviolence will rise.
So they'll have a state ofemergency.
Anyone that's registered everbeen registered as a gang member
(38:05):
automatic.
They get picked up, they're putinto prison, they start off.
I think it's 60 days and then,if there's continued to be gang
violence, they'll attack onanother 60 days and then, if
there's continued to be gangviolence, they'll tackle it in
another 60 days.
You know, I know there's somedefense attorneys in my area who
do process with that thing.
But I've seen it and what'samazing to me is, you know
there'll be times that it's toodangerous for me to go into the
(38:27):
poorest parts of the city and dothe food drives that I do, and
it's you know.
Then I know a state emergencyis coming and I'll actually wait
for it to happen.
They'll scoop up all the gangmembers, put it in the prison.
I'll go down to the food drive,then I'll go provide training
at the prison and I'm lookingaround and it's just as peaceful
here as it as it always is,because at the prison.
(38:48):
You know they're going to obeythe rules or pay the consequence
.
Speaker 1 (38:51):
The government's almost taking the gangs hostage,
aren't they?
Speaker 2 (38:56):
Yep, and so it's, yeah, it's I mean yeah, I'm okay
with it.
Speaker 1 (39:03):
You keep messing up, we'll keep tacking time on.
You'll never get them back.
Speaker 2 (39:06):
Right, Wow, Well, in El Salvador they do that.
So El Salvador, PresidentBukele.
He came in, built these megaprisons and went, and if
somebody was MS-13, they're inthere.
Whether they committed a crimeat the time or not, they're in
prison.
And he's getting a lot of heatfor that now because they've
been in there a while.
But it works in Central America.
That's what you do.
Speaker 1 (39:28):
Unfortunately so, and this is going to back up to
something you said early in thepodcast.
But I've always heard the termcartel ran prison.
Talk to me about what thatmeans, because for me, I mean, I
just have no concept of thisprison that's being ran by, I
guess, the gangs Right.
Speaker 2 (39:50):
And the officers are all outside Right.
So fortunately in Belize wedon't have cartels.
We have gangs, but any cartelactivity is not.
It's nothing compared to thescope of other countries.
I do a lot of work with thehuman trafficking stuff
involving cartels, so I spend alot of time on the border, a lot
of time in Mexico, and so I ampretty well-versed with the
cartel world.
I am pretty well versed withthe cartel world and in terms of
(40:15):
when they're half the prison,you know, they it.
You know there's actually aNetflix documentary.
It's that same documentaryworld's toughest prisons.
If you watch the Danley Hondurasvideo, you know it'll, it'll
show you what that, what thatlooks like.
Okay, so, yeah, so it, you knowit.
Basically, it's the prisonofficers.
You know they maintain theperimeter, you know, but it's
it's truly the cartel leadersthat are maintaining order
within the prison, and thatexists in different countries
(40:37):
throughout.
You know Central America, youknow it's, it's insane.
But you know, if you think abouthow much power the cartels have
.
And you know, I see it all thetime in Mexico, where I'll see
the cartels moving drugs ormoving people, and the Mexican
military, which is a bunch ofkids 18 to 22 year old kids are
just standing there.
I mean, I have drone footage ofthe Mexican military.
(41:00):
Well, mexican military lawenforcement, along with the
cartels you know, workingtogether and we had drones at
the job, and so you know theseguys in a country that's
controlled by cartelsfortunately, like I said, belize
doesn't have a cartel problembut you know, in countries that
they're really controlled bythese, these gangs or cartels
northern triangle, which is elsalvador, guatemala and honduras
el salvador is the currentexception, but, uh, guatemala
(41:24):
and honduras, you know it, 95 ofcrime goes unpunished.
So you know the people that arein there are the worst of the
worst and you know they havemuch more control than certainly
the prison officers.
But really, in some cases, insome areas, the government, you
know, to stay alive, politicians, are accepting the bribes of
(41:47):
these cartel guys.
Speaker 1 (41:50):
So in Belize, how's the sentencing, you know, is
there?
Is there death penalty?
Is life mean you're nevercoming out and hope's gone?
Are they handing out 40, 50, 60year sentences, or is there
hope?
Speaker 2 (42:03):
Yep, so fair question .
So what's different down thereabout here is that you can
easily be in prison for three,four, five years, maybe more,
before your case ever goes tocourt.
So they're on remand and thathappens all the time.
I would say somewhere around40% of the inmates are there on
(42:24):
remand, and so the court systemwas based on the old English
system because they were British.
British Honduras is what theold name of Belize used to be.
So their court system stillfollows this English process and
it's very antiquated.
(42:45):
If you get bail, most people inBelize aren't going to be able
to pay it.
So when COVID was a thing, ifpeople weren't wearing a mask
and they were given a $100 fineand they couldn't pay it, they,
when COVID was a thing, ifpeople weren't wearing a mask
and they were given a $100 fineand they couldn't pay it, they
were sitting in the prison formonths and then sometimes the
prison director would advocatefor them to be released.
And so the court system is notI speak highly of the prison,
(43:08):
but the court system.
It's really a mess.
It's a mess, but the courtsystem, it's really a mess.
It's a mess For these guys thatI've talked to that have been
there for years.
I definitely encourage you towatch the prison, the Belize
edition of the World's ToughestPrisons.
I'll look that up and we'll putit in the show notes.
Okay, perfect, exactly what Isaw is in that documentary.
(43:32):
What's interesting is thedocumentary was done by Raphael
(43:58):
Rowe, which is an atheist, buthe says right at the end
Ashcroft Rehabilitation Program.
Then they're given basicallythey're trustees Now they're
given a job.
So they know that any violationis going to basically cause
them to lose that job.
Then they're going back intototal isolation.
So they're very careful and Ithink that's part of why I'm
able to walk freely around theprison is the stakes are so high
for them to lose their freedom.
So you know, when I walk aroundthe prison, you know there's 50
(44:21):
, 100 trustees doing everything,mowing grass to, to do all the
prison stuff.
And you know I walk up to himand there's never, never even
been close to an issue.
And in fact, fact, my partner,my business partner, she's a
Hispanic female, little like5'5", 5'2", and she will walk
(44:41):
shoulder to shoulder with methroughout this prison, just her
and I, yeah, wow.
Speaker 1 (44:45):
Is it?
Yeah, and be safe, right, right.
So one of the big things withrehabilitation, of course, that
I've seen American system isfamily contact.
So I'm guessing they don't havephones inside the prison to
call family and family may nothave phones.
Do they get visiting?
They do, do they just do itthrough letters?
Speaker 2 (45:15):
generous visiting policy, so they have visitors
nonstop and it's interestingbecause the visitors have to go
through the same searchprocedures as the inmates and
then they're put into a chainlink room and they have.
So basically there's aplexiglass and they're able to
communicate through a hole inthe plexiglass, but they're
basically in a concrete on thefloor like a concrete bench and
then able to communicate withtheir loved ones there.
(45:36):
But yeah, that's very common.
You had asked about the deathpenalty.
So Belize part of the deal.
Whenever Colby Foundation tookover in 2002, they said they
didn't want to do the deathpenalty and that was one of the
concessions the government made.
Speaker 1 (45:48):
Okay, okay, so I guess where are you going from
here?
What is it that you're lookingto?
I'm sure you're wanting to helpmore down there.
What is it you're looking to doin the future?
Speaker 2 (46:01):
Great question.
The need for training neverends.
So what I'm hoping is to bringadditional people that want to
see this, that want tocontribute, that want to get
involved.
I encourage them to fact checkme.
They go and do all the researchonline, maybe reach out to the
prison director.
And you know, I've taken teams.
Now it's been going on fiveyears now that I've taken teams.
(46:22):
I have not taken one persondown there that did not say that
it changed it.
Every single person that tookdown there said it changes their
lives.
To see people you know, justwith so much pride but with so
little you know, and but stillto be working hard, to be so
eager and hungry for training.
Speaker 1 (46:40):
It's encouraging, yeah yeah, and I mean I don't
see it at that level, but I dotraining around the country and
when you go to the small jails,that don't you know, I worked at
the federal bureau of prisonston of money, ton of training.
But you go out here to somelittle county where they got
small jails and those people are, I mean, they're just focused
on you, they're just soaking upwhatever you can give them.
So I'm sure it's like that onlya thousand times more to have
(47:03):
those people down there.
Speaker 2 (47:05):
And also the inmates.
You know, sitting and talkingto these inmates, you know it's
not, you know it's not commonfor an American to be going in
there and investing time intothem by talking to them and the
training that I provide them.
You know anger management, howto be a father when you're
incarcerated, and it resonateswith them because no one they're
not receiving it otherwise.
So you know that's.
That's part of, I think, why Ihave the safety that I do down
(47:27):
there is, you know, these guys,these higher ranking gang
members, are the ones that I'mproviding training to.
So the word gets out then youknow to to leave me alone.
And you know, speaking of theguy, it was a former gang member
that went to prison inCalifornia.
You know he's told merepeatedly and you know he, you
know he's, he's on the streets,he knows that he goes, they know
(47:48):
who you are, but you knowthere's an order not to mess
with you.
He goes.
Speaker 1 (47:51):
They know who you are , but you know there's an order
not to mess with you.
Wow, that's amazing.
That's just amazing what you'veseen.
So what's the next?
So is this part of anorganization?
Is this just you, just me, Justyou, just you, okay?
So do you make phone calls andsay, hey, they need this, or how
(48:12):
do people help?
I guess is the next question,great question.
Speaker 2 (48:15):
So you know there are always needs.
You know, with every need youcan imagine the person could
have, they have it.
So you know it's.
You know there's really not.
Like you know I don't try tofundraise for the prison.
You know what I do is I try tofind a specific need that they
have at the time right.
So at one point, you know, theprison director, you know,
(48:35):
reached out and said you know wedon't have the budget for
prison officer uniforms.
So you know he was concernedbecause he's putting the new
officers out there on the yardwith inmates that some of which
don't have uniforms so you knowthat are in civilian clothes
that they showed up to theprison with, don't have uniforms
that are in civilian clothesthat they showed up to the
prison with.
(48:55):
So that is always one need isthe cloth for them to sew to
create their own uniforms.
So what I would say is anybodythat is interested in getting
involved in either maybe goingdown there and seeing it
firsthand or at least having adiscussion about what could be
done to support this prison, iswelcome to reach out to me.
I do have a company.
It's not affiliated with theprison, but I do human
(49:16):
trafficking consulting, and somy website is my last name, so
it's wwwsadulskicom, and anyonecan reach out to me from there
and we can address, we can geton the phone with the prison
director and talk about thespecific needs of the day.
Speaker 1 (49:33):
Interesting.
Wow, that's just fascinating.
I can't even picture it.
I've been 30 years incorrections and I can't even
picture some of the stuff thatyou're telling me.
Speaker 2 (49:44):
So if we could put in the notes.
So I've written a lot ofarticles and I've taken a lot of
pictures and so maybe we caninclude those in the notes
because you know it'll walkthrough, you know really the
years of this work and it'llinclude the pictures of how the
prison was and how the prison istoday.
Speaker 1 (50:02):
Yeah, no, we can absolutely do that and, along
with your contact information,and, and uh, I'll look up the
the uh websites for these uh uhvideos here so that people can
get an idea and watch thosedocumentaries.
Thank you very much, justamazing.
Anything else you want to tellus?
Speaker 2 (50:19):
Nope, I just want to thank the corrections officers
that are listening.
It's sometime the forgottenpillar of the criminal justice
system, but it is certainlyequally as important and it's an
honorable profession, and youguys certainly have my support.
Speaker 1 (50:34):
Well, thank you very much.
I appreciate everything you'redoing down there for them
because I have brothers aroundthe world.
We're still brothers andsisters.
We all do the same job in someform.
Some of them don't have as much, some of them have more, so
thank you for being on here.
Absolutely Thanks for theopportunity.
Let's check back in in a yearand see what's changed down
(50:56):
there and you can talk some moreabout it.
That'd be great, thank you.
Have a great day.
Thank you.
I would like to take a minute tothank one of our sponsors that
make the Prison Officer Podcastpossible.
Omni RTLS is a company thatI've been working with for the
last year.
I am proud to be part of thisteam of correctional
professionals who have developedthe best real-time locating
(51:18):
system on the market today.
With Omni's real-time locationtechnology, you automatically
know the accurate locations andinteractions of all inmates,
staff and assets anywhere inyour correctional facility, and
you have this information inreal time.
Omni is cutting-edge softwarefor today's jails and prisons.
It is the only way to monitorevery square inch of your
(51:40):
facility while still being PREAcompliant.
Go to wwwomnirtlscom for moreinformation and to make your
facility safer today.
That's wwwomnirtlscom.
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