March 24, 2025 • 58 mins
From military operations in the Gulf to the corridors of correctional facilities, Chris McConnell's journey is a narrative of resilience and leadership. Growing up in a law enforcement family in Pennsylvania, Chris was destined for a life of service. After serving as an airborne infantryman in Operation Desert Shield Storm, he transitioned into a civilian role, first as a municipal police officer and later embarking on a remarkable 30-year career with the Federal Bureau of Prisons. Chris's story is a testament to personal growth and adaptability and an enlightening guide to the diverse career paths available within the Bureau of Prisons.
The episode uncovers the complex realities and rewarding challenges of positions like lieutenant and associate warden, emphasizing the essential roles they play in maintaining safety and order within prison environments. Chris highlights the significance of mentorship and how it shaped his transition from managing daily incidents to overseeing emergency preparedness and critical operations. Whether you're considering a career in corrections or simply looking for leadership inspiration, Chris's journey offers valuable lessons and insights.
Chris's email - cmcconnell1968@outlook.com
Chris on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/christopherlmcconnell/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hello and welcome back to the Prison Officer
Podcast.
My name is Michael Cantrell andtoday I've got an old friend.
We've known each other forseveral years Chris McConnell.
We're going to talk about hiscareer and his life and what
he's doing now that he's retired.
He started off in the military,was airborne infantry and
(00:22):
worked in law enforcement for alittle while before he came to
the Federal Bureau of Prisons.
He's had several and we'll gothrough his career and learn
about each step, but he's hadseveral jobs through the years.
He was an emergencypreparedness specialist, which
was where we met each other onthe teams and with EPO stuff,
(00:42):
finally retired in 2022 as acomplex warden at USP Pollack.
So he has went through theranks from correctional officer
all the way to the top and I'mexcited to have him on here and
hear about his story.
So welcome to the podcast,chris.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Thank you, mike, I appreciate it.
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
Absolutely, and I'm sure you I know you have you
listen to the podcast.
I always like to start theseout the same Tell me where you
grew up and what it was that gotyou into corrections.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
Well, I grew up in a small rural town in northeastern
Pennsylvania called Canton.
It was a law enforcement family.
My mother was a secretary andoffice manager, but my dad and
my brother were bothPennsylvania state troopers.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
Oh, wow.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
They're both retired For a period of time.
My oldest brother was amunicipal police officer and he
worked for the sheriff's office,so, needless to say, a law
enforcement family.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
So I knew at a very young age that I wanted to be in
that brotherhood, thatfraternity, that civil service,
that law enforcement type job.
That internal desire never leftme.
It's probably still with metoday.
I graduated in 1987.
Of course I was 18 years old,probably a little wild, probably
(02:06):
not fully mature.
So I enlisted in the UnitedStates Army.
I went in as an airborneinfantryman.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
Nice.
Thank you for your service.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
Yes, thank you.
Probably one of the bestdecisions of my life.
I served four years and onecombat tour in Operation Desert
Shield Storm tour in OperationDesert Shield Storm, excellent.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
So then you came back and you went into law
enforcement.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
Is that right I did?
After I served in the militaryI decided to pursue civilian law
enforcement.
So after I was honorablydischarged I did something
that's rather unique In thestate of Pennsylvania.
I used my GI Bill to pay my wayto become a certified municipal
(02:53):
police officer.
So I attended a stateuniversity that hosted a police
academy and I paid my waythrough to become a police
officer, of course in the hopesof already being certified and
being hired by a department thatdoesn't have to pay for my
academy.
So it was kind of a new concept, I believe, at the time.
(03:14):
But once I got out I startedlooking around at the you know,
the municipal pay.
It wasn't the highest back inthe 90s it was actually pretty
low.
But knowing I needed experienceto move on, whether I went
state or federal or whatever mydesire was going to be, my
father had a contact in theTioka County Sheriff's
(03:34):
Department, so he knew thesheriff there.
It's kind of a funny story.
When I was interviewed by thesheriff I don't think he asked
me one question about myqualifications.
I think we talked about my dadthe entire interview.
But anyway, I was hired onthere for about a year and that
was my initiation, so to speak,into corrections transport court
(03:58):
, security, prison inmates,everything.
Speaker 1 (04:03):
So you had some time there as working in the jail as
a deputy.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
I did, I worked in the jail.
Yes, that's correct.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
And so what was it that made you want to keep going
in that instead of heading outto the street?
Because a lot of guys start inthe jail, you know, they get a
couple of years under their beltand then they try to hit the
road.
What was it that kept you incorrections?
Speaker 2 (04:26):
Well, I can say this as I previously mentioned, I
believe and I could be wrong,but I believe my hourly pay was
$8.08.
Yes, that was fairly low at thetime, so I knew it was probably
a position that I was going todo for a period of time, get my
experience and move on.
Now this is around 1993.
(04:49):
I'm 24 years old and theFederal Bureau of Prisons,
commonly referred to as the BOP,was having a job fair in our
area.
I did not have the BOP on myradar.
I did not know much about theBOP, but I was certainly
(05:11):
interested.
So there was a newly builtcorrectional complex in
Allenwood, pennsylvania.
So I thought, okay, job fairAllenwood Bureau of Prisons,
paramilitary Job fair AllenwoodBureau of Prisons, paramilitary,
law enforcement agency, canines, investigations, swat teams,
gangs, good benefits, pay,career advancement, travel.
(05:33):
I'm thinking all this stuff.
You know my mind is spinning.
Sure, of course, I went to thejob fair, I applied and I was
hired as a GS-6 correctionalofficer and that was the start
of my 30-year career with theBOP.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
Excellent.
So did you get hired on as aGS-6 because you already had
that year in at the jail?
Speaker 2 (05:56):
The year in at the jail and, I believe, my military
, if I remember correctly.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
Okay, yeah, yeah, because that was the thing.
If you didn't have some priorexperience, you had to come in
as that GS five and wait a year.
(06:21):
So now I guess there are someof them are coming in as GSA.
I've heard the BOP and I kindof had to walk in there and shut
my mouth and let them reteachme.
But yeah, we don't always getbrand new people off the street
like you.
They came in, they've alreadybeen doing the job, that's right
.
So where'd you start off?
At Allenwood?
Speaker 2 (06:41):
So I did.
I started off at Allenwood.
I was making a little moremoney.
I think my salary was $24,800back in the early 90s.
It was a little more.
It went a little bit furtherthan it does today.
But I together we put the bedstogether, the cells together,
the lockers together, brought inall the equipment.
So I didn't have that firsttime walking in a prison with a
(07:16):
gate slamming behind you effect.
I somewhat slowly eased intothe Federal Bureau of Prisons
because we were activating it.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
Did you guys get extra training and stuff because
you had some time there withoutinmates?
Was that a plus?
Speaker 2 (07:30):
It was a plus extra training.
I remember we had a guy, alieutenant, old school
lieutenant from Lewisburg and hewas our training lieutenant.
And what a great opportunity tohave the time to sit in classes
and be trained by someone thathas you know, 30 years
experience managing inmates.
So, yes, a definite plus.
Speaker 1 (07:52):
Probably one of the highlights of my career was when
I activated Thompson and I gotall those brand new people off
the street and got to spend timewith them, teaching them
everything that I'd learned,piece by piece, and it was very
rewarding.
I still keep in touch with alot of them, so you get the
complex up and going.
Complex is a different kind ofbird, I mean, it's a different
(08:13):
kind of world.
Multiple prisons how many there?
Three.
Speaker 2 (08:16):
Yep, there was actually four there, if you
count the minimum, because theminimum security or the federal
prison camp already existed.
So the complex consisted of thelow, the medium and high high
security, which we callpenitentiary.
The minimum securityinstitution, again, was already
(08:36):
existed.
So four levels and I believethe complex philosophy was
allowing staff to be promotedwithout transferring.
So I took advantage of that.
Again, I entry level as a GS-6correctional officer and I
promoted to a GS-11 lieutenantright at the complex.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
So you may not have had that day when the door
slammed, but you did have a daywhen all the inmates showed up.
Tell me what that week was like, because it's more like a week.
It's not really one day, butyou know it happens over a
period of time.
Tell me what that was like.
Speaker 2 (09:13):
Yeah, well, the good thing is is they came in slowly.
You know, a bus load here.
A bus usually has, was it 40inmates?
I believe that we put on bus.
Yeah, was it 40 inmates?
I believe that we put on bus,yeah, 40 inmates at a time.
So we were able to, you know,put so many in a unit at a time.
You may have 10 inmates in aunit and the correctional
(09:34):
officer can run the unit with 10inmates, and the next day we
may have 20, and then 30, andthen 40.
So we kind of, you know, builtour way into having a full
housing unit of 100-plus inmates.
So it was actually kind ofbuilt our way into having a full
housing unit of 100 plusinmates.
So it was actually kind of nice.
I like to think that that wasone of the reasons why Allynwood
ran so well.
(09:55):
I believe some institutionsstart out not running so well
for one reason or another, but Ibelieve that's one reason.
Allenwood was just one of thoseinstitutions that ran very well
.
Speaker 1 (10:09):
What was your next?
Speaker 2 (10:13):
Well, I like to say when I started the Bureau I was
still kind of looking for thatbrotherhood, that camaraderie.
So I did join the SpecialOperations Response Team.
We call it SORT.
It's kind of the BOP's versionof a tactical SWAT team.
They trained in dealing withhigh-risk situations, collateral
duty, generally train one totwo days a month, one to two
(10:38):
weeks a year, similar to theNational Guard.
And even back in the 90s wecompeted nationwide with other
sort teams like running andobstacle courses and tactical
entries and rappelling andshooting and things of that
nature.
So that was a neat opportunityfor me as well.
That was kind of myintroduction into emergency
(11:00):
preparedness or emergencymanagement.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
So one of the recent podcasts I did was on becoming a
member of a team.
It's one of the pieces ofadvice I give staff as soon as
you can get on one of thoseteams, whatever it is.
How important was it to you tobe the member of SORT that early
in your career?
Speaker 2 (11:19):
Extremely important.
That's one of the keys tosuccess that you know.
Maybe perhaps we'll talk aboutlater Corrections is a tough,
tough business.
It's a tough, tough business.
You have to do something else.
I highly encourage any staffmember to get involved in their
institution, whether it's partof a team, whether it's an
(11:39):
instructor.
It's your career.
Make the most out of it.
So extremely important to haveanother outlet, like the special
operations response team andactually getting a day or two
out of the prison hanging outwith the fellows shooting
weapons, taking your mind offcorrections Extremely important.
I didn't realize it back then.
(12:00):
I more realize it today.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
Yeah, and you're absolutely right about becoming
an instructor.
If you want to become themaster of a subject, the best
way to do it is to teach it, andthat's going to carry you
throughout your career.
Speaker 2 (12:13):
So yeah, that's a good point there.
Speaker 1 (12:15):
Your next step looks like you became a lieutenant.
When did you make up your mindyou were going to go into
leadership?
Speaker 2 (12:22):
Well, it's funny, at the time I was a GS officer so I
was considered a senior officerspecialist.
There was a position open acorrectional counselor.
It was a GS9 step.
I thought, well, I only have ashort time in the Bureau, I
doubt I'll get it.
But as we say, we like to testour paperwork, let's apply for
(12:45):
it.
We'll test our paperwork andsee where we're at.
So I applied for it and Iactually got the position.
Now I didn't think that was mycareer path.
It was a little bit differentfor me going from, say,
correctional services into unitmanagement.
So I don't think I was happydoing that job and I knew I
wanted to get back intocorrectional services.
(13:07):
So a position opened for alieutenant, actually on the
complex, and I applied for thatand I was selected as a
lieutenant.
So staff teased me and they saythat I have two scars in my
back, one when they removed mybackbone to be a correctional
counselor and one when they putit back in when I became a
lieutenant.
Speaker 1 (13:28):
There's a lot of reading.
Goes on with that stuff.
Speaker 2 (13:32):
I call it fun banter.
Speaker 1 (13:35):
We absolutely need those jobs, but they're
absolutely.
You know, I had the opportunityto become a unit manager at one
point and I was like I justdon't think I can do that.
That's just not who I am.
Yeah, so, but one thing aboutthe Bureau, one thing about
corrections people don't realize, people that are coming into
this, is how many options youknow.
You go in a police department.
There's pretty much like two orthree ways that you move up.
(13:57):
Corrections is just wide open,especially like the Bureau.
122 prisons I don't even knowhow many different
classifications of jobs.
Food service, unit managementfacilities.
Speaker 2 (14:10):
That's right, it's wide open.
Yeah, that's right.
A lot of opportunity out there.
And if you have a skill or abackground, if you have a, you
know, you can commit as acorrectional officer and say
you're, you have a skill, acertificate, a certification in
plumbing.
Well, you can go intofacilities and be a plumber.
It's amazing, you know.
(14:31):
A prison is the best way Iexplain it.
I'm sure you've heard it is asmall town.
A prison is a small town.
What a small town deals with isexactly what a prison deals
with.
We just don't have automobilesdriving around, sure, everything
else is pretty much the prisondeals with.
We just don't have automobilesdriving around, sure, everything
else is pretty much the same.
Speaker 1 (14:48):
Yeah, yep, absolutely .
So what was it like being alieutenant?
I mean, I don't know about you,but the lieutenants, of course.
I started off at Leavenworth.
I had some lieutenants thatwere larger than life, and then,
when I made lieutenant manyyears later, it was just like I
became part of that club orwhatever.
And so what was it likebecoming a lieutenant in the BOP
(15:08):
?
Speaker 2 (15:10):
Probably my second favorite job in the entire
Bureau of Prisons.
I was a lieutenant for about 10years, not only at the federal
prison camp for a short periodof time, but at the penitentiary
.
I always say I operate well inchaos.
(15:31):
I just I so enjoyed it becausea lot of people depending on me,
depending on my decisions,depending on my common sense,
you know there's times where wemake decisions that you know we
have to separate staff andinmates for whatever reason, for
the safety of staff and inmates.
You're the problem solver,you're the first responder.
(15:55):
You set the tone for anyincident that you deal with and
you deal with incidents on adaily basis.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
That's personal life.
Speaker 2 (16:07):
Yeah, and being in that position, having that honor
, that responsibility and, quitefrankly, that confidence,
there's nothing better and weall know that corrections is a
thankless job.
Like you say, most people haveno idea what we do, but we also
(16:34):
have a shift of you know staffand inmates that you know we
have to take care of and protectand give them our best and, as
a lieutenant, that was one ofthe one of my favorites.
Speaker 1 (16:38):
Yeah yeah, you know it is a thankless job, but when
you're a lieutenant, I thinkthat thanklessness that's the
public, maybe the administration, but you are so close to what's
going on and the people you'reworking with and the inmates I
mean, I had inmates thank me forthe job I did when I was a
lieutenant also, but you're soclose to what's going on you
actually do feel like you'remaking a difference as a
(17:02):
lieutenant.
Speaker 2 (17:03):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (17:05):
So did you start thinking moving up in leadership
beyond that?
Is that when that started?
Speaker 2 (17:11):
I did not, Okay.
However, someone else did forme.
Yeah, that happens.
So it was one of those things.
You know, my captain at thetime, a very respected
individual.
He pulled me aside and saidChris, I want you to promote up,
I want you to have moreresponsibility, I think you can
further your career.
(17:32):
I was like well, I don't havethat desire, I'm fine right here
.
And he says no, you're going toleave.
And I said I don't want toleave.
And he said you're going toleave.
So he actually persuaded me and, boy, I appreciate it today, I
appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
Where did that path take you?
Speaker 2 (17:53):
That took me.
I went to the central office orheadquarters in the Office of
Emergency Preparedness.
Speaker 1 (18:01):
Quite a warm shirt, didn't you?
Speaker 2 (18:03):
What a neat, what a neat job.
That's what I can say.
But then you know emergency.
I always say there's a there'sa huge difference between
emergency management andemergency preparedness.
They're both broad categoriesbut they're both entirely
different.
What I did was more emergencymanagement kind of the
mitigation, the preparedness,the response, recovery, things
(18:26):
of that nature, whereasemergency preparedness is kind
of you know, those steps before,during and after an incident.
But what a neat job that's.
When I became intimatelyinvolved with use of force and
less lethal munitions, theOffice of Emergency Preparedness
took me in that direction.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
You don't realize there's a lot of stuff that that
office is over.
I didn't even realize until Iactually went up there and took
it over.
I mean all the teams you'reinvolved with them, all the use
of forces across the Bureau.
You're putting a hand in,somehow, either reviewing, or
people are calling you up andgoing.
Did we do this right?
How do we do this?
(19:07):
So much training comes out ofthat office that goes back down
to those institutions.
So it's a huge job up there.
When I left, there was thechief and then there were four
specialists.
Is that what it was when youwere there?
Speaker 2 (19:20):
Yes, we had the chief , and let's see one, two, three,
I think we only had three atthe time, three specialists,
okay.
Speaker 1 (19:26):
Yeah, but yeah, huge job, but so rewarding.
Speaker 2 (19:31):
Yeah, and you know.
Again, we talked about you knowtaking advantage of your job,
you know volunteering, gettinginvolved.
I tell people all the time thatthe Bureau of Prisons sent me
(19:51):
to Indonesia, for example, andpeople are like, what are you
talking about?
Bureau of Prisons, that'sfederal, that's United States,
what do you mean?
Indonesia?
Well, I was part of a team thatwent over and did physical
security assessments on theirinstitutions that housed
terrorists.
Again, get involved, becomethat subject matter, expert in
that field that you enjoy andget involved in.
Opportunities like that willpresent itself.
Speaker 1 (20:14):
So you were up there from what 09 to 13?
.
Speaker 2 (20:18):
Yeah, I stayed there for about four years.
I actually was trying to figureout what do I do now.
You know what do I do now.
So I remember going to myassistant director and I said I
think I'm ready to put my showon the road and perhaps move to
the next position.
And he said okay, he goes.
(20:38):
What do you want to do?
And I said perhaps a complexcaptain, perhaps associate
warden?
And he said, chris, you've beenin custody pretty much your
entire career.
You need to get out of yourcomfort zone.
I want to see you go out as anexec executive assistant.
Speaker 1 (20:53):
Sure.
Speaker 2 (20:54):
I went.
Okay, I didn't have that one onmy radar either.
Okay, so I started applying toexecutive assistant positions.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
For those who don't know, tell us what that is.
Speaker 2 (21:05):
It's basically the executive assistant to the
warden Pretty much handle allthe paperwork, day-to-day
planning, just kind of keep thewarden in that straight path.
I'm the guy that does all theadministrative duties, but it
also prepares me for that nextlevel, that executive leadership
level.
Speaker 1 (21:26):
You learn a lot in that position.
When I was a deputy we were inbetween executive assistants
Like a couple of months.
The warden put me in there andI became so detail-oriented I
learned so much about the Bureauand, like you said, custody.
I didn't know a lot of thisstuff.
It's a big position as far aslearning.
Speaker 2 (21:45):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (21:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
And going to Butner.
Like you, I know you worked atSpringfield.
Butner, of course, is a federalmedical center.
People that may not know.
It's a full hospital facilitycomplete with hospice and a
morgue and everything in betweenmental health, palliative care,
dialysis, oncology, mentalcompetency, evaluations Wow, it
(22:11):
opened my eyes to a whole newarea of the prison system.
You know inmates that are sick,inmates that are older, things
of that nature Something Ididn't think about when I was a
correctional officer oremergency management specialist.
I've not dealt with that.
Speaker 1 (22:30):
It's a whole different world.
I need to do an episode just onmedical centers.
Talk about what all thatentails, because it is, I mean,
as a correctional officer orlieutenant or whatever.
You come in there and you'relike, okay, how do I put cuffs
on a guy with one arm?
You know, it's just.
It takes everything that youthought you knew about
(22:51):
corrections and puts twists toit.
And how do you treat somebodythat's, you know, hospice, you
know.
Speaker 2 (22:59):
Yep and I used to call it.
I would always call it.
You know correctional medicineBecause you had to find that
delicate balance between youknow safety and security.
Speaker 1 (23:09):
You know with compassionate medical care and
common sense sometimes,sometimes it's in the gray areas
, completely out of policy, whatyou're dealing with.
So sometimes it's just, youknow, being able to pull out
some common sense.
That's right, yeah.
So, executive assistant, whereare you headed to next?
Speaker 2 (23:30):
Executive assistant.
Now I'm ready to put my show onthe road again.
So I started applying forassociate warden positions and I
was lucky to get selected atUSP Lee in Virginia USP standing
for United States Penitentiaryhigh security.
It was quite an honor to beselected at a penitentiary as a
first-time associate warden,sure and because most first-time
(23:54):
assignments are low or mediumsecurities and so that was a
very neat experience.
And of course it was my secondpenitentiary at this point, so I
had a little familiarity ofwhat I was doing, what made you
choose your warden At the time.
I had two wardens when I wasthere.
One was Warden Chris Zink andthe other one was Warden Charles
(24:19):
Ratledge.
Speaker 1 (24:22):
Was he not there yet?
He wasn't there yet.
Speaker 2 (24:26):
He was not there yet, but I did work with Brecken
Mike Brecken in the Office ofEmergency Preparedness in
Washington DC for a short periodof time.
Oh, okay.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
Yeah, small world.
Speaker 2 (24:39):
I met him.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
So what was Lee like?
Speaker 2 (24:43):
Lee was different.
It was a great.
It was a good experience.
It was a good experience for afirst-time AW.
Speaker 1 (24:51):
How was it being the AW over programs instead of
corrections?
That's a whole new world.
Speaker 2 (24:57):
That's a whole new world because again you're out
of your comfort zone.
What do they say?
Jack of all trades, master ofnone type of thing.
So here I'm managingdepartments that I have, you
know, quite frankly, very littleknowledge in.
To be honest with you.
Let's just call it what it isFinancial management.
(25:18):
You know the business officer,the money Facilities.
You know infrastructure of theprison, food service.
You know the service, the foodwe serve to the end.
I mean, wow, I have a lot tolearn.
But that's why we move around,that's why we go in different
positions of higherresponsibility, more oversight,
(25:41):
to learn everything.
They learn the entire prisonoperation, every department.
So perhaps we can move to thatnext level as a warden.
Speaker 1 (25:51):
It's not by accident.
The Bureau has set this up overdecades and improved it the way
people move up through there,because they didn't want
somebody at the top who can onlymake decisions in one area of
knowledge.
So, yeah, they prepare you tocome up there and eventually be
a warden.
Speaker 2 (26:10):
That's right?
Yep, that's right, it takes it.
Yes, you know, generally you dotwo tours as an associate
warden, two tours meeting twodifferent institutions, a lot of
times in two different regions,two different security levels,
things of that nature, you know.
Speaker 1 (26:25):
To make you more rounded, yeah, so you went to
big.
Your second AW is going to beat Big Sandy.
Speaker 2 (26:32):
Second AW.
Speaker 1 (26:33):
Who knew it was Big Sandy at that time?
Speaker 2 (26:36):
It was fairly new.
Let's see, it was probably.
It was probably still 15, 20years old.
Speaker 1 (26:42):
Was it.
Speaker 2 (26:42):
Okay, it's been around for a hot minute before I
got there.
That was a great facility.
You know, sometimes when itcomes to executive staff, when
it comes to the selection of,you know, aws and wardens, you
don't have a choice.
The executive, the Bureauexecutive staff picks those
positions and we had an all-starteam there.
We really did.
It was an all-star team and wewere.
(27:03):
We just got along so well fromthe warden to the AWs to the
captain, which which makes for awell-run institution.
I thoroughly enjoyed my mytenure as AW at Big Sandy
because it was so well-run.
I learned so much.
I learned how to run apenitentiary Really and it was
(27:28):
and it was the you and it wasthe executive team, and then you
can be a well-run, you can be agreat exec team, but you still
have to have buy-in from thestaff and we had that as well
and it was just a pleasure to bean associate ward at Big Sandy
during my tenure there.
Speaker 1 (27:48):
So what do you attribute that to, because
that's something we have a lotof problem with right now.
What do you attribute that theexecutive staff were doing to
get that buy-in, to have thatinfluence?
Speaker 2 (27:59):
Again.
I had a very high-rankingindividual in the Bureau of
Prisons one time.
Tell me, sometimes we get itright, sometimes we get it wrong
, and there's probably sometruth to that.
Different disciplines,different philosophies.
You know you're merging allthese people together and you're
trying to come up with, youknow, a whole and it worked at
(28:22):
Big Sandy for us.
I think sometimes someinstitutions get perhaps, maybe
executive staff that don't seeeye to eye or just have
different philosophies orideologies or whatever, and
maybe they, you know, maybethey're resisting one another
and maybe it's showing on howthey manage the institution.
We didn't have that.
We were all on the same sheet.
(28:43):
We were a well-oiled machine.
Speaker 1 (28:46):
And that makes it comfortable for the staff where
they can look at the managementand they see that the
management's getting along,they're all working together,
they're headed in the samedirection and it's for the good
of the institution.
Then the staff know it's forthe good of them also.
Speaker 2 (28:59):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (29:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:01):
There's definitely a bigger picture.
Speaker 1 (29:03):
Yeah, so your next step is going to be warden.
And they looked around and theypicked out the prettiest
institution for you to go toPollock was kind of rough when
you went there, wasn't it?
Speaker 2 (29:15):
Well, it was rough and I got to the point where I
started applying for my warden.
I remember getting that phonecall and said Chris, we're
looking at you, we're looking atyou at El Reno and Pollock and
I said okay.
Speaker 1 (29:30):
Those are opposite ends of the spectrum.
Speaker 2 (29:32):
And they said do you have a preference?
I know that my preferencereally wasn't going to matter,
so I said I have no preference.
You know it's an honor to belooked at as a warden, not only
selected.
So I said you know, whateverthe agency wants me to do, I'll
do so.
I was selected as a warden atFCI Pollack, which is in
(29:53):
Louisiana, but, interestingstory, before that I was still
associate warden at Big Sandyand Hurricane Irma did some
damage down in Florida and Texasand as a part of ESF-13, if
people are familiar with that,emergency Support Function 13,
which provides federalassistance to areas of disaster
(30:15):
asked if I would take a team asthe team leader down to Florida
for Hurricane Irma.
And of course when you're askedsomething like that, you say
yes and I said of course.
So I didn't get muchpreparation time for a ward and
I went down to Florida as a teamleader for Hurricane Irma.
(30:35):
But that was a great experience, not only an honor to be
selected as a team leader, itwas an honor to take those men
down there to give them whateverhelp that we could give them.
Speaker 1 (30:51):
Yeah, and the ESF functions are part of FEMA plan,
where they can take individualsfrom different agencies, bring
those teams together to go out.
And for ESF 13, it tends to bea lot of search and rescue and
security type stuff and I didn'tget to go on any of those.
But if the guys that came backin corrections we get so little
opportunity to interact with thepublic and help the public and
they were always just so jazzedto be able to get called out and
(31:14):
go actually, you know, help thepublic outside the prison.
For those, that's right.
That's right.
Excellent.
So you come into Pollock.
Tell me about Pollock.
Speaker 2 (31:25):
Yep.
So I traveled back to Big Sandyafter Hurricane Irma and you
know, prepare for my transfer toPollock as a warden, a medium
security, fci, federalCorrectional Institution a
medium security.
But it was a pretty wild place.
It was a very, very activemedium security.
What do I mean by that?
(31:45):
A lot of incidents, a lot ofinmate-related incidents,
whether it's drug introductionsor violence, fights, things of
that nature.
It was just a very activefacility.
But what was nice about that isI took my years of emergency
preparedness, my years ofexperience at penitentiaries,
(32:06):
and I applied it to thatfacility.
I'd made a lot of securityenhancements.
I call it One nice thing aboutus when we were in the Office of
Emergency Preparedness, we hadthe ability to read all the
after actions.
Awesome, I mean we're actuallyreading what people did wrong
(32:27):
and because generally afteractions they focus on the
negative, not the positive, tobe honest with you.
So we're kind of reading whatwent wrong.
So put that knowledge in yourhead.
You don't want to make the samemistake twice.
So it was actually knowledgefor us, great knowledge to take
on to that next level.
So when that situation comes upat your facility, you already
(32:48):
have some exposure to it on howthat next level.
So when that situation comes upat your facility, you already
have some exposure to it on howto handle it and hopefully how
to handle it correctly.
So that was certainly a benefit.
Speaker 1 (32:59):
Yeah, that was just before COVID, but no, you stayed
at the same place, didn't you?
Speaker 2 (33:04):
Well, I, yes, I did.
I stayed right at Pollockbecause Pollock was a complex as
well.
So they had a medium securityinstitution and a high security
institution.
They had a complex warden andthen a warden.
So they had two wardens on thecomplex.
So I kind of call them juniorwarden, senior warden.
So the next step would havebeen an SES, or they call it
(33:28):
senior executive service,complex warden.
So I did apply for that and Istayed right at the complex and
I assumed the duties as complexwarden right at Pollock.
So I did two years as thewarden at the medium and three
years as the warden at thepenitentiary.
Speaker 1 (33:48):
Right, I'm sure at the penitentiary there were
daily challenges.
You got there just or youswitched jobs just before COVID,
so that had to have been one ofyour biggest challenges.
Speaker 2 (33:58):
I did COVID was.
I certainly can't sit here andtake all the credit, but I am
the complex warden and I led2,500 inmates and 500 staff
through this unprecedented,unchartered national COVID-19
pandemic.
(34:19):
We had no inmate-related deathsAgain.
Taking all those years ofemergency preparedness, all that
experience I've had all thoseafter actions I read and applied
it toward this pandemic and wehad a successful outcome.
So that's probably one of myfondest accomplishments in the
(34:46):
entire Bureau of Prisons wasmanaging my staff through that.
Speaker 1 (34:51):
Well, and those tend to be the things we remember,
except, I guess, for some of us.
You know the crisis, you knowwhen crisis happens, that's what
builds bonds, that's what youknow builds that community
inside the prison, whether it'sa fight or whether it's COVID-19
.
So, yeah, the prison, whetherit's a fight or whether it's
COVID-19.
So yeah, I think all of us havethat.
Where we have this, some of ourbest times are what everybody
(35:13):
else would go.
That's got to be the worst time.
Well, no, we were working hard,we were working together and it
was the true team at the time.
Speaker 2 (35:20):
That's correct.
You have to be comfortable inyour own skin, right?
You have to be ready.
You have to have prisonexperiences that prepare you for
something like that.
And I was lucky enoughthroughout my career to have
those experiences.
I was very comfortable managingthat pandemic with my staff.
(35:44):
I remember sitting down withall my department heads and you
know I remember looking them alland there's some don't get me
wrong, I'm a little nervous butI remember looking at them in
the face and saying I operatewell in chaos.
We got this, folks.
This is we're just going toapply what we know, we're going
to make good common sensedecisions and we're going to get
(36:04):
through this as a team.
And we did.
Speaker 1 (36:10):
So you've moved up into that warden position Kind
of talk to me a little bit about.
You know we get so comfortableand I know you did too.
Correctional officer lieutenant, we operate in that tactical
mindset.
But when you get up in warden,and especially warden over a
complex, you've switched a lotto the strategic mindset.
You've got to think about thewhole picture.
(36:30):
Even as a captain it was hard,you know you no longer just get
to think about custody, you'vegot to pay attention to
everybody else facilities, foodservice, education, make sure
all of it comes together.
So talk to me a little bitabout that strategic thinking
when you get up there in thecomplex board level.
Speaker 2 (36:50):
Well, the good thing is again, I transferred over
from the medium so I was alreadyat the complex.
So I knew all the staff.
I knew the department heads, Iknew the exec staff.
It was somewhat seamless.
I knew what the problems wereat Pollock, so I just didn't
transfer in.
I was already on the complexfor two years, so that was
(37:11):
certainly an advantage for me.
Pollock at the time had a blackcloud over it.
It just seems there was a lotof negative publicity
surrounding Pollock and I didnot like that.
One of my main goals was to getus out of the black cloud.
Let's change up a little bit,let's do some different
(37:33):
decisions, let's manage a littlebit differently and try to stay
out of what we call the funnypapers.
Sometimes, sure, I'm a firmbeliever in if it's not broke,
don't fix it, even if it's nothow you would do it.
Focus on the areas that needfixing.
(37:57):
And I think we did that and Ithink we got it to a point where
it was a you didn't knock onwood and I'm not trying to pat
myself on the back but we didstay out of the funny papers.
We were out of that black cloud.
I think we got it moving in theright direction All right.
And again, that's not a meeffort, that's a team effort.
(38:20):
I may be steering the boat, butyou know I have my crew in the
back that keeps it afloat.
Jim, but I have my crew in theback.
That keeps it afloat.
So did you retire out ofPollock?
I did retire out of Pollock.
Speaker 1 (38:33):
Yes, what was the just?
Was it time?
Were you tired?
Speaker 2 (38:40):
Other opportunities I had 30 years in, almost 30
years in, with four years in themilitary.
So I had 34 years of governmentservice.
It does get to be time.
It does.
To recap entry-levelcorrectional officer to an SES
warden.
I did six geographical moves,eight different institutions,
(39:00):
including headquarters, workedat complexes, medical centers,
penitentiaries, mediums,minimums, witsec, everything.
And one thing that sometimes wemay forget about is we're
towing our family around with usand it's hard on him as well.
My son, I think, at the timewas in 10th grade and he was
(39:21):
already in 10 different schools.
That's good in some respectsand bad in others.
So it was time to you know,think about the family as well.
That's good in some respectsand bad in others.
So it was time to you know,think about the family as well.
Speaker 1 (39:39):
Maybe look into a different endeavor and see where
the you know, see where ittakes us.
So, through all those moves andall the jobs, I mean it's no
easy task going from acorrectional officer to a
complex warden.
Speaker 2 (39:54):
What do you think the secrets to success are there?
Well, I think number one.
I believe the number one secretto success is training.
I refer to training and you'veheard this, I'm sure pay now or
pay later.
You're either trained or you'reuntrained.
Either invest in high qualitytraining now or pay later for
injuries and deaths and lawsuitsand community distrust and all
(40:15):
that stuff.
Training does not stop.
I participated in training forthe past 30 years and I still
learn new stuff every day.
Just because you're a wardendoes not mean you know
everything.
But I also think it's importantthat training and I teach this
training must be recent,relevant, realistic and ongoing.
(40:40):
Absolutely, that's very, veryimportant.
But number two another key tosuccess is something I did and
this is something I see in otheragencies where you really got
to be careful Learn your currentjob before taking on more
responsibility and promoting.
I see a lot of staff promote upquickly.
(41:01):
That's okay.
But if you don't know whatyou're doing in your previous
job, are you just chasing money?
Are you chasing promotions?
Take your time.
It's a career, it's a marathon,it's not a race.
I had 24 years in before I madewarden.
(41:24):
Some people can retire at 20years.
I had 24 years in before I madewarden.
I was 49 years old but, moreimportantly, I was ready.
You know, I was ready to takeon that responsibility.
I was in no rush when I was acorrectional officer.
I was in no rush when I was alieutenant.
I was in no rush when I was acorrectional officer.
(41:46):
I was in no rush when I was alieutenant.
I was in no rush when I was anemergency management specialist
or an exec or an AW.
I enjoyed learning the entireaspect of the job.
I wanted to be ready before Itook that next step and I think
that's two keys to success.
Speaker 1 (42:03):
That I hope would help out anybody.
So you've had many leadershippositions.
You know from lieutenant oreven GS8, but lieutenant is
usually when most peopleconsider themselves stepping
into the leadership positionsall the way up to complex warden
.
What are some of the?
I don't know if you've gotsomebody listening here and
(42:23):
they're moving into thosepositions.
What are some of yourleadership thoughts, tips, what
helped you?
Speaker 2 (42:32):
Well, first I will.
I will answer the age oldquestion Are leaders born or
made?
But I'm going to cheat andsplit the difference and say
both.
I do believe that you know somepeople do have, you know,
natural leadership abilities.
I do believe that some peopledo have natural leadership
abilities, but I also believethat those abilities and those
qualities need to be honedthrough experience and learning.
(42:53):
So there's a lot of catchyphrases out there.
One people will say isleadership's not a rank, it's a
service is not a rank, it's aservice.
You'll say how do you inspireand guide and influence others
into achieving a shared goal?
(43:13):
First, I would say integrity.
You have to be honest, you haveto have a moral compass or
staff will see right through you.
Now, that's first.
I believe another importantaspect of leadership is really
leading from the front.
Again, one of those catchyphrases don't ask your employees
(43:34):
to do something you wouldn't doyourself.
I led from the front, forexample, when I asked my
officers, my staff members, todo a shakedown.
I'm in a unit doing a shakedownwith them.
I'm in a cell.
I could tell that was a newconcept to some, because they
were all going the warden'sshaking down.
(43:54):
You know things of that nature.
Perhaps maybe they have notseen that, but, leading from the
front, I remember taking overin 2015,.
You know, I think I wasassociate warden at the time and
a new concept in the Bureau wasstab resistant vest.
There was some resistance there.
You know how do I tell a 30year correctional officer put on
(44:18):
a vest.
Wait a minute, I just went 30years I didn't wear a vest.
How do I tell a plumber, hey,put your vest on while I'm
working inside a pipe chase, Ihave no room as it is Put on
your vest while you'reinterviewing an inmate for
mental health reasons?
How about a hot climate, thesweat, the heat, a lot of
(44:42):
resistance.
But you know what I did as awarden?
I wore my vest.
I put it on when I left myhouse.
I took it off when I got home.
I wore it all day.
I set the example, I led fromthe front.
You know, I've actually heardpeople say well, the wardens do
it and I'm going to do it.
You know that thing.
You know, yes, it was a policy.
Yes, I could have enforced itthrough discipline, but that
(45:05):
wasn't the time or the place.
You wanted.
You want them to do it.
Because we care about you, we'regoing to give you equipment to
to you know, to protect, to sawthis in our careers is you
cannot manage from your desk,you have to manage by walking
(45:33):
around.
I remember the days when thewardens would have a picture, a
framed picture, in their officeand it said M-B-W-WA, manage by
walking around.
How are you going to knowwhat's going on in your
institution unless you get offyour butt, get inside there and
walk and talk with the inmatesand the staff.
(45:54):
It's that simple.
You have to manage by walkingaround.
That is leadership 101.
And when I was walking around Iwould ask him you know what
equipment, what supplies, whattraining do you need to
successfully perform your job?
What's one thing you wouldchange right now to to make your
job safer?
Is there anything I can do foryou right now?
(46:15):
You know those type ofquestions.
Engage with a staff.
I was also known to test them alittle bit too.
I'd quiz them.
You know what's the goal of OC?
You know involuntary closure ofthe eyes, things of that nature
.
If you lost control of yourunit from an inmate fight, kind
of a disturbance what would youdo?
You know those types of things.
You know.
Call for help, secure the unit,you know.
Wait for the cavalry to arrive.
You know additional staff.
(46:36):
You know where's your cut downtool.
You know things of that nature.
Just constantly make them think.
Speaker 1 (46:43):
Constantly training, constantly training.
Speaker 2 (46:45):
It's because training never stops.
Speaker 1 (46:49):
Everybody says we don't have time for training.
Yeah, you do.
Do it right there on shift.
Every time you see one, one ofthe officers give them just a
question.
And I saw several guys like you.
Of course, they were always thebest ones, the best AWs, the
best wardens were the ones thatquizzed you.
They wanted to do it.
It made them feel better.
I know that this officer getsit.
(47:10):
I know that they, you know,understand.
So they not only got that, butthen we also got this leadership
of.
They want to know that we'redoing what we're supposed to.
Speaker 2 (47:21):
That's right, that's right.
That's right, i's right.
Yeah, that's right, and it is.
I call it a general reminder.
You know, some of that trainingthat we do, some of those
questions that we ask, are justgeneral reminders.
It's just to, it's to get yourhead thinking.
You know, we used to say youknow what if, everything.
You know what would I do ifthis happened?
What would I do if thishappened?
I did that as a warden and itseems silly, but it's a great
(47:46):
game because I've asked myselfquestions that actually my heart
sank in my stomach because Iwasn't sure of my own answer.
And that's what I mean by youknow what if?
And then you have to.
Okay, I need to look into this.
I'm not confident in my abilityright now if that particular
what if, happened, and I need toexplore this a little bit
further.
Speaker 1 (48:06):
Yeah, getting the officers out of the.
There's so much stuff tied tothem being in the office.
I think, and I hope and we'reseeing some of it come across as
a technology and I hopetechnology is going to take some
of that back off.
The officers and thelieutenants Lieutenants are
stuck in offices too becausewe're filling out reports, all
(48:30):
these forms and all these Exceldeals, you know.
But I think technology that'swhat's coming into corrections.
I think that's going to be thenext great thing is it's going
to come in, take some of those,you know, just piddly jobs off
of us and allow us to get backto doing corrections.
Speaker 2 (48:48):
Right, that's right.
And if I could just close alittle bit more on the
leadership, a couple of otherpoints I wanted to bring up is I
think you know leadership isalso listening to your staff
before making tough decisions,especially decisions that's
going to impact the operation oreveryone.
(49:10):
I say I think that's important.
Everyone should have a voice, abuy-in opinion, and
unfortunately there's only oneperson that makes the decision,
but everything should be takenas a whole before a decision is
made.
Speaker 1 (49:27):
Let me ask you a question here while we're
talking about this.
So it's not on yet, but Iinterviewed a 28-year-old
correctional officer the otherday, so it'll be here in a few
weeks.
But one of the questions Iasked him I said I get to hear
from people up in the chain.
You know that your generationis tough.
You know to manage that theydon't look at things the same
(49:47):
way and he said we don't.
He said but what we want isexplain to us why.
So tell me, you know, as aleader and you're talking about
that communication is thatsomething we can give staff
coming up?
Is the why?
Or do we not have time and wejust say do it like we used to?
Speaker 2 (50:08):
Again, I think that's that manage by walking around.
That's going to allow thosequestions, that's going to allow
those answers.
Hey, ask me why.
I'm more than willing to tellyou why.
Why did you paint the egressdoor green?
Why did you do that, warden?
(50:31):
Why did you do that?
Well, because the statisticshave shown if an officer or
someone within that unit was indistress, actually running for
their safety, all they see isone color throughout that entire
unit.
They have no idea where thedoor is, because you know that
fight or flight takes over andyou know your mind's going 100
(50:54):
miles an hour, your adrenaline'sjust flowing throughout your
body.
But there's statistics wherethey've asked the officer why
didn't you just go out the, youknow, out the front door, out
the egress door?
I couldn't see it, I didn'tknow where it was at.
I was just running, all I sawwas one color, things of that
nature.
I think it's important toexplain why we do what we do as
a warden.
That was one of my difficulties.
I had to realize that there isa generational gap between me
(51:18):
and some of my new correctionalofficers coming on board.
But I had a mentor have youknow, have to explain that to me
saying you do.
You do have to recognize thatthey, they, they do look at
things differently.
It's not bad, it's justdifferent.
That's okay, you know so.
Speaker 1 (51:34):
Any final thoughts?
Speaker 2 (51:37):
Well, just to even get back, I want to mention one
other thing in leadershipbecause I think it's important.
Speaker 1 (51:41):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (51:44):
I think you know I used to call it.
You know there's sayers andthere's doers out there.
You know, some talk a greatgame and leaders get it done,
and I think Benjamin Franklinsaid it best well done is better
than well said.
So you know, action not words.
Action not words regardingleadership.
(52:05):
My final thoughts I guess myfinal thoughts would be one
thing that I, as a warden, Ialways hated to hear from staff
is you know, I can't wait tillretirement.
I can't wait till retirement.
This is your career, yourcareer.
Make the most out of yourcareer.
(52:33):
Don't wish for retirement.
Retirement will come.
You'll get there, trust me.
Enjoy your career along the way, get involved, volunteer,
become an instructor, makeyourself, your staff and your
institution a better place.
Something that I would pressupon my staff when I'd hear
(52:56):
about retirement.
I think that's extremelyimportant.
I've had, you know, probablylucky, but again I've traveled
outside the country, traveledall over the country with the
Bureau of Prisons, so that wasextraordinary, to say the least.
But to answer your question ona final thought, I guess I'd
(53:17):
just like to say you know, thankyou to all the correctional
professionals out there.
You're the true public servantsthat perform a dangerous and
thankless job with honor andcompassion and professionalism.
Be proud of who you are andwhat you do.
And I would also like to sayMike, I like to say thank you
for doing what you do.
(53:38):
I always said that the craziestthings regarding human behavior
happen in two places prisonsand hospitals.
So for you to try to make senseof a world that doesn't make
sense, it's probably extremelydifficult, but you're doing a
good job, so keep up the goodwork, brother, appreciate that
(53:59):
yeah.
Speaker 1 (54:00):
It's been a learning experience for me.
I'm still learning.
It's been a learning experiencefor me, I'm still learning.
And to get to do theseinterviews with you and you know
we're coming up on ourhundredth episode to get to do
that, I have learned so much.
So corrections hasn't stoppedfor me just because I retired
from the bureau.
I appreciate that.
Speaker 2 (54:19):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (54:20):
If someone wanted to contact you, what's the best way
to you have a email?
Or LinkedIn, or what would youlike to put in the show notes?
Speaker 2 (54:27):
I am on LinkedIn.
I am on LinkedIn.
I also have an email.
It's my first initial C, mylast name, mcconnell, so it's
CMcConnell.
That may or may not be the yearI was born, so
cmcconnell1968atoutlookcom.
I would welcome any questionsor comments or any advice or any
(54:49):
mentorship.
Speaker 1 (54:50):
Absolutely, and I'll put that in the show notes and
I'll say thank you before I letyou go, because you were a
mentor to me in emergencypreparedness and the teams.
We had a lot of greatconversations when I was coming
and I'm sure that's what allowedme to move up into.
I mean, I finished out as chiefof emergency preparedness,
which I'm very proud of.
That's right.
But, we had a lot ofconversations and you helped me
(55:13):
through that process and Iappreciate it.
Speaker 2 (55:16):
Well, we helped each other.
Speaker 1 (55:18):
Okay, have a great day, chris.
Speaker 2 (55:21):
Thank you, mike.
Thank you, it was an honorbeing on here.
I appreciate you interviewingme.
Hello and welcome back to the Prison Officer
Podcast.
My name is Michael Cantrell andtoday I've got an old friend.
We've known each other forseveral years Chris McConnell.
We're going to talk about hiscareer and his life and what
he's doing now that he's retired.
He started off in the military,was airborne infantry and
(00:22):
worked in law enforcement for alittle while before he came to
the Federal Bureau of Prisons.
He's had several and we'll gothrough his career and learn
about each step, but he's hadseveral jobs through the years.
He was an emergencypreparedness specialist, which
was where we met each other onthe teams and with EPO stuff,
(00:42):
finally retired in 2022 as acomplex warden at USP Pollack.
So he has went through theranks from correctional officer
all the way to the top and I'mexcited to have him on here and
hear about his story.
So welcome to the podcast,chris.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Thank you, mike, I appreciate it.
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
Absolutely, and I'm sure you I know you have you
listen to the podcast.
I always like to start theseout the same Tell me where you
grew up and what it was that gotyou into corrections.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
Well, I grew up in a small rural town in northeastern
Pennsylvania called Canton.
It was a law enforcement family.
My mother was a secretary andoffice manager, but my dad and
my brother were bothPennsylvania state troopers.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
Oh, wow.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
They're both retired For a period of time.
My oldest brother was amunicipal police officer and he
worked for the sheriff's office,so, needless to say, a law
enforcement family.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
So I knew at a very young age that I wanted to be in
that brotherhood, thatfraternity, that civil service,
that law enforcement type job.
That internal desire never leftme.
It's probably still with metoday.
I graduated in 1987.
Of course I was 18 years old,probably a little wild, probably
(02:06):
not fully mature.
So I enlisted in the UnitedStates Army.
I went in as an airborneinfantryman.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
Nice.
Thank you for your service.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
Yes, thank you.
Probably one of the bestdecisions of my life.
I served four years and onecombat tour in Operation Desert
Shield Storm tour in OperationDesert Shield Storm, excellent.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
So then you came back and you went into law
enforcement.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
Is that right I did?
After I served in the militaryI decided to pursue civilian law
enforcement.
So after I was honorablydischarged I did something
that's rather unique In thestate of Pennsylvania.
I used my GI Bill to pay my wayto become a certified municipal
(02:53):
police officer.
So I attended a stateuniversity that hosted a police
academy and I paid my waythrough to become a police
officer, of course in the hopesof already being certified and
being hired by a department thatdoesn't have to pay for my
academy.
So it was kind of a new concept, I believe, at the time.
(03:14):
But once I got out I startedlooking around at the you know,
the municipal pay.
It wasn't the highest back inthe 90s it was actually pretty
low.
But knowing I needed experienceto move on, whether I went
state or federal or whatever mydesire was going to be, my
father had a contact in theTioka County Sheriff's
(03:34):
Department, so he knew thesheriff there.
It's kind of a funny story.
When I was interviewed by thesheriff I don't think he asked
me one question about myqualifications.
I think we talked about my dadthe entire interview.
But anyway, I was hired onthere for about a year and that
was my initiation, so to speak,into corrections transport court
(03:58):
, security, prison inmates,everything.
Speaker 1 (04:03):
So you had some time there as working in the jail as
a deputy.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
I did, I worked in the jail.
Yes, that's correct.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
And so what was it that made you want to keep going
in that instead of heading outto the street?
Because a lot of guys start inthe jail, you know, they get a
couple of years under their beltand then they try to hit the
road.
What was it that kept you incorrections?
Speaker 2 (04:26):
Well, I can say this as I previously mentioned, I
believe and I could be wrong,but I believe my hourly pay was
$8.08.
Yes, that was fairly low at thetime, so I knew it was probably
a position that I was going todo for a period of time, get my
experience and move on.
Now this is around 1993.
(04:49):
I'm 24 years old and theFederal Bureau of Prisons,
commonly referred to as the BOP,was having a job fair in our
area.
I did not have the BOP on myradar.
I did not know much about theBOP, but I was certainly
(05:11):
interested.
So there was a newly builtcorrectional complex in
Allenwood, pennsylvania.
So I thought, okay, job fairAllenwood Bureau of Prisons,
paramilitary Job fair AllenwoodBureau of Prisons, paramilitary,
law enforcement agency, canines, investigations, swat teams,
gangs, good benefits, pay,career advancement, travel.
(05:33):
I'm thinking all this stuff.
You know my mind is spinning.
Sure, of course, I went to thejob fair, I applied and I was
hired as a GS-6 correctionalofficer and that was the start
of my 30-year career with theBOP.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
Excellent.
So did you get hired on as aGS-6 because you already had
that year in at the jail?
Speaker 2 (05:56):
The year in at the jail and, I believe, my military
, if I remember correctly.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
Okay, yeah, yeah, because that was the thing.
If you didn't have some priorexperience, you had to come in
as that GS five and wait a year.
(06:21):
So now I guess there are someof them are coming in as GSA.
I've heard the BOP and I kindof had to walk in there and shut
my mouth and let them reteachme.
But yeah, we don't always getbrand new people off the street
like you.
They came in, they've alreadybeen doing the job, that's right
.
So where'd you start off?
At Allenwood?
Speaker 2 (06:41):
So I did.
I started off at Allenwood.
I was making a little moremoney.
I think my salary was $24,800back in the early 90s.
It was a little more.
It went a little bit furtherthan it does today.
But I together we put the bedstogether, the cells together,
the lockers together, brought inall the equipment.
So I didn't have that firsttime walking in a prison with a
(07:16):
gate slamming behind you effect.
I somewhat slowly eased intothe Federal Bureau of Prisons
because we were activating it.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
Did you guys get extra training and stuff because
you had some time there withoutinmates?
Was that a plus?
Speaker 2 (07:30):
It was a plus extra training.
I remember we had a guy, alieutenant, old school
lieutenant from Lewisburg and hewas our training lieutenant.
And what a great opportunity tohave the time to sit in classes
and be trained by someone thathas you know, 30 years
experience managing inmates.
So, yes, a definite plus.
Speaker 1 (07:52):
Probably one of the highlights of my career was when
I activated Thompson and I gotall those brand new people off
the street and got to spend timewith them, teaching them
everything that I'd learned,piece by piece, and it was very
rewarding.
I still keep in touch with alot of them, so you get the
complex up and going.
Complex is a different kind ofbird, I mean, it's a different
(08:13):
kind of world.
Multiple prisons how many there?
Three.
Speaker 2 (08:16):
Yep, there was actually four there, if you
count the minimum, because theminimum security or the federal
prison camp already existed.
So the complex consisted of thelow, the medium and high high
security, which we callpenitentiary.
The minimum securityinstitution, again, was already
(08:36):
existed.
So four levels and I believethe complex philosophy was
allowing staff to be promotedwithout transferring.
So I took advantage of that.
Again, I entry level as a GS-6correctional officer and I
promoted to a GS-11 lieutenantright at the complex.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
So you may not have had that day when the door
slammed, but you did have a daywhen all the inmates showed up.
Tell me what that week was like, because it's more like a week.
It's not really one day, butyou know it happens over a
period of time.
Tell me what that was like.
Speaker 2 (09:13):
Yeah, well, the good thing is is they came in slowly.
You know, a bus load here.
A bus usually has, was it 40inmates?
I believe that we put on bus.
Yeah, was it 40 inmates?
I believe that we put on bus,yeah, 40 inmates at a time.
So we were able to, you know,put so many in a unit at a time.
You may have 10 inmates in aunit and the correctional
(09:34):
officer can run the unit with 10inmates, and the next day we
may have 20, and then 30, andthen 40.
So we kind of, you know, builtour way into having a full
housing unit of 100-plus inmates.
So it was actually kind ofbuilt our way into having a full
housing unit of 100 plusinmates.
So it was actually kind of nice.
I like to think that that wasone of the reasons why Allynwood
ran so well.
(09:55):
I believe some institutionsstart out not running so well
for one reason or another, but Ibelieve that's one reason.
Allenwood was just one of thoseinstitutions that ran very well
.
Speaker 1 (10:09):
What was your next?
Speaker 2 (10:13):
Well, I like to say when I started the Bureau I was
still kind of looking for thatbrotherhood, that camaraderie.
So I did join the SpecialOperations Response Team.
We call it SORT.
It's kind of the BOP's versionof a tactical SWAT team.
They trained in dealing withhigh-risk situations, collateral
duty, generally train one totwo days a month, one to two
(10:38):
weeks a year, similar to theNational Guard.
And even back in the 90s wecompeted nationwide with other
sort teams like running andobstacle courses and tactical
entries and rappelling andshooting and things of that
nature.
So that was a neat opportunityfor me as well.
That was kind of myintroduction into emergency
(11:00):
preparedness or emergencymanagement.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
So one of the recent podcasts I did was on becoming a
member of a team.
It's one of the pieces ofadvice I give staff as soon as
you can get on one of thoseteams, whatever it is.
How important was it to you tobe the member of SORT that early
in your career?
Speaker 2 (11:19):
Extremely important.
That's one of the keys tosuccess that you know.
Maybe perhaps we'll talk aboutlater Corrections is a tough,
tough business.
It's a tough, tough business.
You have to do something else.
I highly encourage any staffmember to get involved in their
institution, whether it's partof a team, whether it's an
(11:39):
instructor.
It's your career.
Make the most out of it.
So extremely important to haveanother outlet, like the special
operations response team andactually getting a day or two
out of the prison hanging outwith the fellows shooting
weapons, taking your mind offcorrections Extremely important.
I didn't realize it back then.
(12:00):
I more realize it today.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
Yeah, and you're absolutely right about becoming
an instructor.
If you want to become themaster of a subject, the best
way to do it is to teach it, andthat's going to carry you
throughout your career.
Speaker 2 (12:13):
So yeah, that's a good point there.
Speaker 1 (12:15):
Your next step looks like you became a lieutenant.
When did you make up your mindyou were going to go into
leadership?
Speaker 2 (12:22):
Well, it's funny, at the time I was a GS officer so I
was considered a senior officerspecialist.
There was a position open acorrectional counselor.
It was a GS9 step.
I thought, well, I only have ashort time in the Bureau, I
doubt I'll get it.
But as we say, we like to testour paperwork, let's apply for
(12:45):
it.
We'll test our paperwork andsee where we're at.
So I applied for it and Iactually got the position.
Now I didn't think that was mycareer path.
It was a little bit differentfor me going from, say,
correctional services into unitmanagement.
So I don't think I was happydoing that job and I knew I
wanted to get back intocorrectional services.
(13:07):
So a position opened for alieutenant, actually on the
complex, and I applied for thatand I was selected as a
lieutenant.
So staff teased me and they saythat I have two scars in my
back, one when they removed mybackbone to be a correctional
counselor and one when they putit back in when I became a
lieutenant.
Speaker 1 (13:28):
There's a lot of reading.
Goes on with that stuff.
Speaker 2 (13:32):
I call it fun banter.
Speaker 1 (13:35):
We absolutely need those jobs, but they're
absolutely.
You know, I had the opportunityto become a unit manager at one
point and I was like I justdon't think I can do that.
That's just not who I am.
Yeah, so, but one thing aboutthe Bureau, one thing about
corrections people don't realize, people that are coming into
this, is how many options youknow.
You go in a police department.
There's pretty much like two orthree ways that you move up.
(13:57):
Corrections is just wide open,especially like the Bureau.
122 prisons I don't even knowhow many different
classifications of jobs.
Food service, unit managementfacilities.
Speaker 2 (14:10):
That's right, it's wide open.
Yeah, that's right.
A lot of opportunity out there.
And if you have a skill or abackground, if you have a, you
know, you can commit as acorrectional officer and say
you're, you have a skill, acertificate, a certification in
plumbing.
Well, you can go intofacilities and be a plumber.
It's amazing, you know.
(14:31):
A prison is the best way Iexplain it.
I'm sure you've heard it is asmall town.
A prison is a small town.
What a small town deals with isexactly what a prison deals
with.
We just don't have automobilesdriving around, sure, everything
else is pretty much the prisondeals with.
We just don't have automobilesdriving around, sure, everything
else is pretty much the same.
Speaker 1 (14:48):
Yeah, yep, absolutely .
So what was it like being alieutenant?
I mean, I don't know about you,but the lieutenants, of course.
I started off at Leavenworth.
I had some lieutenants thatwere larger than life, and then,
when I made lieutenant manyyears later, it was just like I
became part of that club orwhatever.
And so what was it likebecoming a lieutenant in the BOP
(15:08):
?
Speaker 2 (15:10):
Probably my second favorite job in the entire
Bureau of Prisons.
I was a lieutenant for about 10years, not only at the federal
prison camp for a short periodof time, but at the penitentiary
.
I always say I operate well inchaos.
(15:31):
I just I so enjoyed it becausea lot of people depending on me,
depending on my decisions,depending on my common sense,
you know there's times where wemake decisions that you know we
have to separate staff andinmates for whatever reason, for
the safety of staff and inmates.
You're the problem solver,you're the first responder.
(15:55):
You set the tone for anyincident that you deal with and
you deal with incidents on adaily basis.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
That's personal life.
Speaker 2 (16:07):
Yeah, and being in that position, having that honor
, that responsibility and, quitefrankly, that confidence,
there's nothing better and weall know that corrections is a
thankless job.
Like you say, most people haveno idea what we do, but we also
(16:34):
have a shift of you know staffand inmates that you know we
have to take care of and protectand give them our best and, as
a lieutenant, that was one ofthe one of my favorites.
Speaker 1 (16:38):
Yeah yeah, you know it is a thankless job, but when
you're a lieutenant, I thinkthat thanklessness that's the
public, maybe the administration, but you are so close to what's
going on and the people you'reworking with and the inmates I
mean, I had inmates thank me forthe job I did when I was a
lieutenant also, but you're soclose to what's going on you
actually do feel like you'remaking a difference as a
(17:02):
lieutenant.
Speaker 2 (17:03):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (17:05):
So did you start thinking moving up in leadership
beyond that?
Is that when that started?
Speaker 2 (17:11):
I did not, Okay.
However, someone else did forme.
Yeah, that happens.
So it was one of those things.
You know, my captain at thetime, a very respected
individual.
He pulled me aside and saidChris, I want you to promote up,
I want you to have moreresponsibility, I think you can
further your career.
(17:32):
I was like well, I don't havethat desire, I'm fine right here
.
And he says no, you're going toleave.
And I said I don't want toleave.
And he said you're going toleave.
So he actually persuaded me and, boy, I appreciate it today, I
appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
Where did that path take you?
Speaker 2 (17:53):
That took me.
I went to the central office orheadquarters in the Office of
Emergency Preparedness.
Speaker 1 (18:01):
Quite a warm shirt, didn't you?
Speaker 2 (18:03):
What a neat, what a neat job.
That's what I can say.
But then you know emergency.
I always say there's a there'sa huge difference between
emergency management andemergency preparedness.
They're both broad categoriesbut they're both entirely
different.
What I did was more emergencymanagement kind of the
mitigation, the preparedness,the response, recovery, things
(18:26):
of that nature, whereasemergency preparedness is kind
of you know, those steps before,during and after an incident.
But what a neat job that's.
When I became intimatelyinvolved with use of force and
less lethal munitions, theOffice of Emergency Preparedness
took me in that direction.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
You don't realize there's a lot of stuff that that
office is over.
I didn't even realize until Iactually went up there and took
it over.
I mean all the teams you'reinvolved with them, all the use
of forces across the Bureau.
You're putting a hand in,somehow, either reviewing, or
people are calling you up andgoing.
Did we do this right?
How do we do this?
(19:07):
So much training comes out ofthat office that goes back down
to those institutions.
So it's a huge job up there.
When I left, there was thechief and then there were four
specialists.
Is that what it was when youwere there?
Speaker 2 (19:20):
Yes, we had the chief , and let's see one, two, three,
I think we only had three atthe time, three specialists,
okay.
Speaker 1 (19:26):
Yeah, but yeah, huge job, but so rewarding.
Speaker 2 (19:31):
Yeah, and you know.
Again, we talked about you knowtaking advantage of your job,
you know volunteering, gettinginvolved.
I tell people all the time thatthe Bureau of Prisons sent me
(19:51):
to Indonesia, for example, andpeople are like, what are you
talking about?
Bureau of Prisons, that'sfederal, that's United States,
what do you mean?
Indonesia?
Well, I was part of a team thatwent over and did physical
security assessments on theirinstitutions that housed
terrorists.
Again, get involved, becomethat subject matter, expert in
that field that you enjoy andget involved in.
Opportunities like that willpresent itself.
Speaker 1 (20:14):
So you were up there from what 09 to 13?
.
Speaker 2 (20:18):
Yeah, I stayed there for about four years.
I actually was trying to figureout what do I do now.
You know what do I do now.
So I remember going to myassistant director and I said I
think I'm ready to put my showon the road and perhaps move to
the next position.
And he said okay, he goes.
(20:38):
What do you want to do?
And I said perhaps a complexcaptain, perhaps associate
warden?
And he said, chris, you've beenin custody pretty much your
entire career.
You need to get out of yourcomfort zone.
I want to see you go out as anexec executive assistant.
Speaker 1 (20:53):
Sure.
Speaker 2 (20:54):
I went.
Okay, I didn't have that one onmy radar either.
Okay, so I started applying toexecutive assistant positions.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
For those who don't know, tell us what that is.
Speaker 2 (21:05):
It's basically the executive assistant to the
warden Pretty much handle allthe paperwork, day-to-day
planning, just kind of keep thewarden in that straight path.
I'm the guy that does all theadministrative duties, but it
also prepares me for that nextlevel, that executive leadership
level.
Speaker 1 (21:26):
You learn a lot in that position.
When I was a deputy we were inbetween executive assistants
Like a couple of months.
The warden put me in there andI became so detail-oriented I
learned so much about the Bureauand, like you said, custody.
I didn't know a lot of thisstuff.
It's a big position as far aslearning.
Speaker 2 (21:45):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (21:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
And going to Butner.
Like you, I know you worked atSpringfield.
Butner, of course, is a federalmedical center.
People that may not know.
It's a full hospital facilitycomplete with hospice and a
morgue and everything in betweenmental health, palliative care,
dialysis, oncology, mentalcompetency, evaluations Wow, it
(22:11):
opened my eyes to a whole newarea of the prison system.
You know inmates that are sick,inmates that are older, things
of that nature Something Ididn't think about when I was a
correctional officer oremergency management specialist.
I've not dealt with that.
Speaker 1 (22:30):
It's a whole different world.
I need to do an episode just onmedical centers.
Talk about what all thatentails, because it is, I mean,
as a correctional officer orlieutenant or whatever.
You come in there and you'relike, okay, how do I put cuffs
on a guy with one arm?
You know, it's just.
It takes everything that youthought you knew about
(22:51):
corrections and puts twists toit.
And how do you treat somebodythat's, you know, hospice, you
know.
Speaker 2 (22:59):
Yep and I used to call it.
I would always call it.
You know correctional medicineBecause you had to find that
delicate balance between youknow safety and security.
Speaker 1 (23:09):
You know with compassionate medical care and
common sense sometimes,sometimes it's in the gray areas
, completely out of policy, whatyou're dealing with.
So sometimes it's just, youknow, being able to pull out
some common sense.
That's right, yeah.
So, executive assistant, whereare you headed to next?
Speaker 2 (23:30):
Executive assistant.
Now I'm ready to put my show onthe road again.
So I started applying forassociate warden positions and I
was lucky to get selected atUSP Lee in Virginia USP standing
for United States Penitentiaryhigh security.
It was quite an honor to beselected at a penitentiary as a
first-time associate warden,sure and because most first-time
(23:54):
assignments are low or mediumsecurities and so that was a
very neat experience.
And of course it was my secondpenitentiary at this point, so I
had a little familiarity ofwhat I was doing, what made you
choose your warden At the time.
I had two wardens when I wasthere.
One was Warden Chris Zink andthe other one was Warden Charles
(24:19):
Ratledge.
Speaker 1 (24:22):
Was he not there yet?
He wasn't there yet.
Speaker 2 (24:26):
He was not there yet, but I did work with Brecken
Mike Brecken in the Office ofEmergency Preparedness in
Washington DC for a short periodof time.
Oh, okay.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
Yeah, small world.
Speaker 2 (24:39):
I met him.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
So what was Lee like?
Speaker 2 (24:43):
Lee was different.
It was a great.
It was a good experience.
It was a good experience for afirst-time AW.
Speaker 1 (24:51):
How was it being the AW over programs instead of
corrections?
That's a whole new world.
Speaker 2 (24:57):
That's a whole new world because again you're out
of your comfort zone.
What do they say?
Jack of all trades, master ofnone type of thing.
So here I'm managingdepartments that I have, you
know, quite frankly, very littleknowledge in.
To be honest with you.
Let's just call it what it isFinancial management.
(25:18):
You know the business officer,the money Facilities.
You know infrastructure of theprison, food service.
You know the service, the foodwe serve to the end.
I mean, wow, I have a lot tolearn.
But that's why we move around,that's why we go in different
positions of higherresponsibility, more oversight,
(25:41):
to learn everything.
They learn the entire prisonoperation, every department.
So perhaps we can move to thatnext level as a warden.
Speaker 1 (25:51):
It's not by accident.
The Bureau has set this up overdecades and improved it the way
people move up through there,because they didn't want
somebody at the top who can onlymake decisions in one area of
knowledge.
So, yeah, they prepare you tocome up there and eventually be
a warden.
Speaker 2 (26:10):
That's right?
Yep, that's right, it takes it.
Yes, you know, generally you dotwo tours as an associate
warden, two tours meeting twodifferent institutions, a lot of
times in two different regions,two different security levels,
things of that nature, you know.
Speaker 1 (26:25):
To make you more rounded, yeah, so you went to
big.
Your second AW is going to beat Big Sandy.
Speaker 2 (26:32):
Second AW.
Speaker 1 (26:33):
Who knew it was Big Sandy at that time?
Speaker 2 (26:36):
It was fairly new.
Let's see, it was probably.
It was probably still 15, 20years old.
Speaker 1 (26:42):
Was it.
Speaker 2 (26:42):
Okay, it's been around for a hot minute before I
got there.
That was a great facility.
You know, sometimes when itcomes to executive staff, when
it comes to the selection of,you know, aws and wardens, you
don't have a choice.
The executive, the Bureauexecutive staff picks those
positions and we had an all-starteam there.
We really did.
It was an all-star team and wewere.
(27:03):
We just got along so well fromthe warden to the AWs to the
captain, which which makes for awell-run institution.
I thoroughly enjoyed my mytenure as AW at Big Sandy
because it was so well-run.
I learned so much.
I learned how to run apenitentiary Really and it was
(27:28):
and it was the you and it wasthe executive team, and then you
can be a well-run, you can be agreat exec team, but you still
have to have buy-in from thestaff and we had that as well
and it was just a pleasure to bean associate ward at Big Sandy
during my tenure there.
Speaker 1 (27:48):
So what do you attribute that to, because
that's something we have a lotof problem with right now.
What do you attribute that theexecutive staff were doing to
get that buy-in, to have thatinfluence?
Speaker 2 (27:59):
Again.
I had a very high-rankingindividual in the Bureau of
Prisons one time.
Tell me, sometimes we get itright, sometimes we get it wrong
, and there's probably sometruth to that.
Different disciplines,different philosophies.
You know you're merging allthese people together and you're
trying to come up with, youknow, a whole and it worked at
(28:22):
Big Sandy for us.
I think sometimes someinstitutions get perhaps, maybe
executive staff that don't seeeye to eye or just have
different philosophies orideologies or whatever, and
maybe they, you know, maybethey're resisting one another
and maybe it's showing on howthey manage the institution.
We didn't have that.
We were all on the same sheet.
(28:43):
We were a well-oiled machine.
Speaker 1 (28:46):
And that makes it comfortable for the staff where
they can look at the managementand they see that the
management's getting along,they're all working together,
they're headed in the samedirection and it's for the good
of the institution.
Then the staff know it's forthe good of them also.
Speaker 2 (28:59):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (29:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:01):
There's definitely a bigger picture.
Speaker 1 (29:03):
Yeah, so your next step is going to be warden.
And they looked around and theypicked out the prettiest
institution for you to go toPollock was kind of rough when
you went there, wasn't it?
Speaker 2 (29:15):
Well, it was rough and I got to the point where I
started applying for my warden.
I remember getting that phonecall and said Chris, we're
looking at you, we're looking atyou at El Reno and Pollock and
I said okay.
Speaker 1 (29:30):
Those are opposite ends of the spectrum.
Speaker 2 (29:32):
And they said do you have a preference?
I know that my preferencereally wasn't going to matter,
so I said I have no preference.
You know it's an honor to belooked at as a warden, not only
selected.
So I said you know, whateverthe agency wants me to do, I'll
do so.
I was selected as a warden atFCI Pollack, which is in
(29:53):
Louisiana, but, interestingstory, before that I was still
associate warden at Big Sandyand Hurricane Irma did some
damage down in Florida and Texasand as a part of ESF-13, if
people are familiar with that,emergency Support Function 13,
which provides federalassistance to areas of disaster
(30:15):
asked if I would take a team asthe team leader down to Florida
for Hurricane Irma.
And of course when you're askedsomething like that, you say
yes and I said of course.
So I didn't get muchpreparation time for a ward and
I went down to Florida as a teamleader for Hurricane Irma.
(30:35):
But that was a great experience, not only an honor to be
selected as a team leader, itwas an honor to take those men
down there to give them whateverhelp that we could give them.
Speaker 1 (30:51):
Yeah, and the ESF functions are part of FEMA plan,
where they can take individualsfrom different agencies, bring
those teams together to go out.
And for ESF 13, it tends to bea lot of search and rescue and
security type stuff and I didn'tget to go on any of those.
But if the guys that came backin corrections we get so little
opportunity to interact with thepublic and help the public and
they were always just so jazzedto be able to get called out and
(31:14):
go actually, you know, help thepublic outside the prison.
For those, that's right.
That's right.
Excellent.
So you come into Pollock.
Tell me about Pollock.
Speaker 2 (31:25):
Yep.
So I traveled back to Big Sandyafter Hurricane Irma and you
know, prepare for my transfer toPollock as a warden, a medium
security, fci, federalCorrectional Institution a
medium security.
But it was a pretty wild place.
It was a very, very activemedium security.
What do I mean by that?
(31:45):
A lot of incidents, a lot ofinmate-related incidents,
whether it's drug introductionsor violence, fights, things of
that nature.
It was just a very activefacility.
But what was nice about that isI took my years of emergency
preparedness, my years ofexperience at penitentiaries,
(32:06):
and I applied it to thatfacility.
I'd made a lot of securityenhancements.
I call it One nice thing aboutus when we were in the Office of
Emergency Preparedness, we hadthe ability to read all the
after actions.
Awesome, I mean we're actuallyreading what people did wrong
(32:27):
and because generally afteractions they focus on the
negative, not the positive, tobe honest with you.
So we're kind of reading whatwent wrong.
So put that knowledge in yourhead.
You don't want to make the samemistake twice.
So it was actually knowledgefor us, great knowledge to take
on to that next level.
So when that situation comes upat your facility, you already
(32:48):
have some exposure to it on howthat next level.
So when that situation comes upat your facility, you already
have some exposure to it on howto handle it and hopefully how
to handle it correctly.
So that was certainly a benefit.
Speaker 1 (32:59):
Yeah, that was just before COVID, but no, you stayed
at the same place, didn't you?
Speaker 2 (33:04):
Well, I, yes, I did.
I stayed right at Pollockbecause Pollock was a complex as
well.
So they had a medium securityinstitution and a high security
institution.
They had a complex warden andthen a warden.
So they had two wardens on thecomplex.
So I kind of call them juniorwarden, senior warden.
So the next step would havebeen an SES, or they call it
(33:28):
senior executive service,complex warden.
So I did apply for that and Istayed right at the complex and
I assumed the duties as complexwarden right at Pollock.
So I did two years as thewarden at the medium and three
years as the warden at thepenitentiary.
Speaker 1 (33:48):
Right, I'm sure at the penitentiary there were
daily challenges.
You got there just or youswitched jobs just before COVID,
so that had to have been one ofyour biggest challenges.
Speaker 2 (33:58):
I did COVID was.
I certainly can't sit here andtake all the credit, but I am
the complex warden and I led2,500 inmates and 500 staff
through this unprecedented,unchartered national COVID-19
pandemic.
(34:19):
We had no inmate-related deathsAgain.
Taking all those years ofemergency preparedness, all that
experience I've had all thoseafter actions I read and applied
it toward this pandemic and wehad a successful outcome.
So that's probably one of myfondest accomplishments in the
(34:46):
entire Bureau of Prisons wasmanaging my staff through that.
Speaker 1 (34:51):
Well, and those tend to be the things we remember,
except, I guess, for some of us.
You know the crisis, you knowwhen crisis happens, that's what
builds bonds, that's what youknow builds that community
inside the prison, whether it'sa fight or whether it's COVID-19
.
So, yeah, the prison, whetherit's a fight or whether it's
COVID-19.
So yeah, I think all of us havethat.
Where we have this, some of ourbest times are what everybody
(35:13):
else would go.
That's got to be the worst time.
Well, no, we were working hard,we were working together and it
was the true team at the time.
Speaker 2 (35:20):
That's correct.
You have to be comfortable inyour own skin, right?
You have to be ready.
You have to have prisonexperiences that prepare you for
something like that.
And I was lucky enoughthroughout my career to have
those experiences.
I was very comfortable managingthat pandemic with my staff.
(35:44):
I remember sitting down withall my department heads and you
know I remember looking them alland there's some don't get me
wrong, I'm a little nervous butI remember looking at them in
the face and saying I operatewell in chaos.
We got this, folks.
This is we're just going toapply what we know, we're going
to make good common sensedecisions and we're going to get
(36:04):
through this as a team.
And we did.
Speaker 1 (36:10):
So you've moved up into that warden position Kind
of talk to me a little bit about.
You know we get so comfortableand I know you did too.
Correctional officer lieutenant, we operate in that tactical
mindset.
But when you get up in warden,and especially warden over a
complex, you've switched a lotto the strategic mindset.
You've got to think about thewhole picture.
(36:30):
Even as a captain it was hard,you know you no longer just get
to think about custody, you'vegot to pay attention to
everybody else facilities, foodservice, education, make sure
all of it comes together.
So talk to me a little bitabout that strategic thinking
when you get up there in thecomplex board level.
Speaker 2 (36:50):
Well, the good thing is again, I transferred over
from the medium so I was alreadyat the complex.
So I knew all the staff.
I knew the department heads, Iknew the exec staff.
It was somewhat seamless.
I knew what the problems wereat Pollock, so I just didn't
transfer in.
I was already on the complexfor two years, so that was
(37:11):
certainly an advantage for me.
Pollock at the time had a blackcloud over it.
It just seems there was a lotof negative publicity
surrounding Pollock and I didnot like that.
One of my main goals was to getus out of the black cloud.
Let's change up a little bit,let's do some different
(37:33):
decisions, let's manage a littlebit differently and try to stay
out of what we call the funnypapers.
Sometimes, sure, I'm a firmbeliever in if it's not broke,
don't fix it, even if it's nothow you would do it.
Focus on the areas that needfixing.
(37:57):
And I think we did that and Ithink we got it to a point where
it was a you didn't knock onwood and I'm not trying to pat
myself on the back but we didstay out of the funny papers.
We were out of that black cloud.
I think we got it moving in theright direction All right.
And again, that's not a meeffort, that's a team effort.
(38:20):
I may be steering the boat, butyou know I have my crew in the
back that keeps it afloat.
Jim, but I have my crew in theback.
That keeps it afloat.
So did you retire out ofPollock?
I did retire out of Pollock.
Speaker 1 (38:33):
Yes, what was the just?
Was it time?
Were you tired?
Speaker 2 (38:40):
Other opportunities I had 30 years in, almost 30
years in, with four years in themilitary.
So I had 34 years of governmentservice.
It does get to be time.
It does.
To recap entry-levelcorrectional officer to an SES
warden.
I did six geographical moves,eight different institutions,
(39:00):
including headquarters, workedat complexes, medical centers,
penitentiaries, mediums,minimums, witsec, everything.
And one thing that sometimes wemay forget about is we're
towing our family around with usand it's hard on him as well.
My son, I think, at the timewas in 10th grade and he was
(39:21):
already in 10 different schools.
That's good in some respectsand bad in others.
So it was time to you know,think about the family as well.
That's good in some respectsand bad in others.
So it was time to you know,think about the family as well.
Speaker 1 (39:39):
Maybe look into a different endeavor and see where
the you know, see where ittakes us.
So, through all those moves andall the jobs, I mean it's no
easy task going from acorrectional officer to a
complex warden.
Speaker 2 (39:54):
What do you think the secrets to success are there?
Well, I think number one.
I believe the number one secretto success is training.
I refer to training and you'veheard this, I'm sure pay now or
pay later.
You're either trained or you'reuntrained.
Either invest in high qualitytraining now or pay later for
injuries and deaths and lawsuitsand community distrust and all
(40:15):
that stuff.
Training does not stop.
I participated in training forthe past 30 years and I still
learn new stuff every day.
Just because you're a wardendoes not mean you know
everything.
But I also think it's importantthat training and I teach this
training must be recent,relevant, realistic and ongoing.
(40:40):
Absolutely, that's very, veryimportant.
But number two another key tosuccess is something I did and
this is something I see in otheragencies where you really got
to be careful Learn your currentjob before taking on more
responsibility and promoting.
I see a lot of staff promote upquickly.
(41:01):
That's okay.
But if you don't know whatyou're doing in your previous
job, are you just chasing money?
Are you chasing promotions?
Take your time.
It's a career, it's a marathon,it's not a race.
I had 24 years in before I madewarden.
(41:24):
Some people can retire at 20years.
I had 24 years in before I madewarden.
I was 49 years old but, moreimportantly, I was ready.
You know, I was ready to takeon that responsibility.
I was in no rush when I was acorrectional officer.
I was in no rush when I was alieutenant.
I was in no rush when I was acorrectional officer.
(41:46):
I was in no rush when I was alieutenant.
I was in no rush when I was anemergency management specialist
or an exec or an AW.
I enjoyed learning the entireaspect of the job.
I wanted to be ready before Itook that next step and I think
that's two keys to success.
Speaker 1 (42:03):
That I hope would help out anybody.
So you've had many leadershippositions.
You know from lieutenant oreven GS8, but lieutenant is
usually when most peopleconsider themselves stepping
into the leadership positionsall the way up to complex warden
.
What are some of the?
I don't know if you've gotsomebody listening here and
(42:23):
they're moving into thosepositions.
What are some of yourleadership thoughts, tips, what
helped you?
Speaker 2 (42:32):
Well, first I will.
I will answer the age oldquestion Are leaders born or
made?
But I'm going to cheat andsplit the difference and say
both.
I do believe that you know somepeople do have, you know,
natural leadership abilities.
I do believe that some peopledo have natural leadership
abilities, but I also believethat those abilities and those
qualities need to be honedthrough experience and learning.
(42:53):
So there's a lot of catchyphrases out there.
One people will say isleadership's not a rank, it's a
service is not a rank, it's aservice.
You'll say how do you inspireand guide and influence others
into achieving a shared goal?
(43:13):
First, I would say integrity.
You have to be honest, you haveto have a moral compass or
staff will see right through you.
Now, that's first.
I believe another importantaspect of leadership is really
leading from the front.
Again, one of those catchyphrases don't ask your employees
(43:34):
to do something you wouldn't doyourself.
I led from the front, forexample, when I asked my
officers, my staff members, todo a shakedown.
I'm in a unit doing a shakedownwith them.
I'm in a cell.
I could tell that was a newconcept to some, because they
were all going the warden'sshaking down.
(43:54):
You know things of that nature.
Perhaps maybe they have notseen that, but, leading from the
front, I remember taking overin 2015,.
You know, I think I wasassociate warden at the time and
a new concept in the Bureau wasstab resistant vest.
There was some resistance there.
You know how do I tell a 30year correctional officer put on
(44:18):
a vest.
Wait a minute, I just went 30years I didn't wear a vest.
How do I tell a plumber, hey,put your vest on while I'm
working inside a pipe chase, Ihave no room as it is Put on
your vest while you'reinterviewing an inmate for
mental health reasons?
How about a hot climate, thesweat, the heat, a lot of
(44:42):
resistance.
But you know what I did as awarden?
I wore my vest.
I put it on when I left myhouse.
I took it off when I got home.
I wore it all day.
I set the example, I led fromthe front.
You know, I've actually heardpeople say well, the wardens do
it and I'm going to do it.
You know that thing.
You know, yes, it was a policy.
Yes, I could have enforced itthrough discipline, but that
(45:05):
wasn't the time or the place.
You wanted.
You want them to do it.
Because we care about you, we'regoing to give you equipment to
to you know, to protect, to sawthis in our careers is you
cannot manage from your desk,you have to manage by walking
(45:33):
around.
I remember the days when thewardens would have a picture, a
framed picture, in their officeand it said M-B-W-WA, manage by
walking around.
How are you going to knowwhat's going on in your
institution unless you get offyour butt, get inside there and
walk and talk with the inmatesand the staff.
(45:54):
It's that simple.
You have to manage by walkingaround.
That is leadership 101.
And when I was walking around Iwould ask him you know what
equipment, what supplies, whattraining do you need to
successfully perform your job?
What's one thing you wouldchange right now to to make your
job safer?
Is there anything I can do foryou right now?
(46:15):
You know those type ofquestions.
Engage with a staff.
I was also known to test them alittle bit too.
I'd quiz them.
You know what's the goal of OC?
You know involuntary closure ofthe eyes, things of that nature
.
If you lost control of yourunit from an inmate fight, kind
of a disturbance what would youdo?
You know those types of things.
You know.
Call for help, secure the unit,you know.
Wait for the cavalry to arrive.
You know additional staff.
(46:36):
You know where's your cut downtool.
You know things of that nature.
Just constantly make them think.
Speaker 1 (46:43):
Constantly training, constantly training.
Speaker 2 (46:45):
It's because training never stops.
Speaker 1 (46:49):
Everybody says we don't have time for training.
Yeah, you do.
Do it right there on shift.
Every time you see one, one ofthe officers give them just a
question.
And I saw several guys like you.
Of course, they were always thebest ones, the best AWs, the
best wardens were the ones thatquizzed you.
They wanted to do it.
It made them feel better.
I know that this officer getsit.
(47:10):
I know that they, you know,understand.
So they not only got that, butthen we also got this leadership
of.
They want to know that we'redoing what we're supposed to.
Speaker 2 (47:21):
That's right, that's right.
That's right, i's right.
Yeah, that's right, and it is.
I call it a general reminder.
You know, some of that trainingthat we do, some of those
questions that we ask, are justgeneral reminders.
It's just to, it's to get yourhead thinking.
You know, we used to say youknow what if, everything.
You know what would I do ifthis happened?
What would I do if thishappened?
I did that as a warden and itseems silly, but it's a great
(47:46):
game because I've asked myselfquestions that actually my heart
sank in my stomach because Iwasn't sure of my own answer.
And that's what I mean by youknow what if?
And then you have to.
Okay, I need to look into this.
I'm not confident in my abilityright now if that particular
what if, happened, and I need toexplore this a little bit
further.
Speaker 1 (48:06):
Yeah, getting the officers out of the.
There's so much stuff tied tothem being in the office.
I think, and I hope and we'reseeing some of it come across as
a technology and I hopetechnology is going to take some
of that back off.
The officers and thelieutenants Lieutenants are
stuck in offices too becausewe're filling out reports, all
(48:30):
these forms and all these Exceldeals, you know.
But I think technology that'swhat's coming into corrections.
I think that's going to be thenext great thing is it's going
to come in, take some of those,you know, just piddly jobs off
of us and allow us to get backto doing corrections.
Speaker 2 (48:48):
Right, that's right.
And if I could just close alittle bit more on the
leadership, a couple of otherpoints I wanted to bring up is I
think you know leadership isalso listening to your staff
before making tough decisions,especially decisions that's
going to impact the operation oreveryone.
(49:10):
I say I think that's important.
Everyone should have a voice, abuy-in opinion, and
unfortunately there's only oneperson that makes the decision,
but everything should be takenas a whole before a decision is
made.
Speaker 1 (49:27):
Let me ask you a question here while we're
talking about this.
So it's not on yet, but Iinterviewed a 28-year-old
correctional officer the otherday, so it'll be here in a few
weeks.
But one of the questions Iasked him I said I get to hear
from people up in the chain.
You know that your generationis tough.
You know to manage that theydon't look at things the same
(49:47):
way and he said we don't.
He said but what we want isexplain to us why.
So tell me, you know, as aleader and you're talking about
that communication is thatsomething we can give staff
coming up?
Is the why?
Or do we not have time and wejust say do it like we used to?
Speaker 2 (50:08):
Again, I think that's that manage by walking around.
That's going to allow thosequestions, that's going to allow
those answers.
Hey, ask me why.
I'm more than willing to tellyou why.
Why did you paint the egressdoor green?
Why did you do that, warden?
(50:31):
Why did you do that?
Well, because the statisticshave shown if an officer or
someone within that unit was indistress, actually running for
their safety, all they see isone color throughout that entire
unit.
They have no idea where thedoor is, because you know that
fight or flight takes over andyou know your mind's going 100
(50:54):
miles an hour, your adrenaline'sjust flowing throughout your
body.
But there's statistics wherethey've asked the officer why
didn't you just go out the, youknow, out the front door, out
the egress door?
I couldn't see it, I didn'tknow where it was at.
I was just running, all I sawwas one color, things of that
nature.
I think it's important toexplain why we do what we do as
a warden.
That was one of my difficulties.
I had to realize that there isa generational gap between me
(51:18):
and some of my new correctionalofficers coming on board.
But I had a mentor have youknow, have to explain that to me
saying you do.
You do have to recognize thatthey, they, they do look at
things differently.
It's not bad, it's justdifferent.
That's okay, you know so.
Speaker 1 (51:34):
Any final thoughts?
Speaker 2 (51:37):
Well, just to even get back, I want to mention one
other thing in leadershipbecause I think it's important.
Speaker 1 (51:41):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (51:44):
I think you know I used to call it.
You know there's sayers andthere's doers out there.
You know, some talk a greatgame and leaders get it done,
and I think Benjamin Franklinsaid it best well done is better
than well said.
So you know, action not words.
Action not words regardingleadership.
(52:05):
My final thoughts I guess myfinal thoughts would be one
thing that I, as a warden, Ialways hated to hear from staff
is you know, I can't wait tillretirement.
I can't wait till retirement.
This is your career, yourcareer.
Make the most out of yourcareer.
(52:33):
Don't wish for retirement.
Retirement will come.
You'll get there, trust me.
Enjoy your career along the way, get involved, volunteer,
become an instructor, makeyourself, your staff and your
institution a better place.
Something that I would pressupon my staff when I'd hear
(52:56):
about retirement.
I think that's extremelyimportant.
I've had, you know, probablylucky, but again I've traveled
outside the country, traveledall over the country with the
Bureau of Prisons, so that wasextraordinary, to say the least.
But to answer your question ona final thought, I guess I'd
(53:17):
just like to say you know, thankyou to all the correctional
professionals out there.
You're the true public servantsthat perform a dangerous and
thankless job with honor andcompassion and professionalism.
Be proud of who you are andwhat you do.
And I would also like to sayMike, I like to say thank you
for doing what you do.
(53:38):
I always said that the craziestthings regarding human behavior
happen in two places prisonsand hospitals.
So for you to try to make senseof a world that doesn't make
sense, it's probably extremelydifficult, but you're doing a
good job, so keep up the goodwork, brother, appreciate that
(53:59):
yeah.
Speaker 1 (54:00):
It's been a learning experience for me.
I'm still learning.
It's been a learning experiencefor me, I'm still learning.
And to get to do theseinterviews with you and you know
we're coming up on ourhundredth episode to get to do
that, I have learned so much.
So corrections hasn't stoppedfor me just because I retired
from the bureau.
I appreciate that.
Speaker 2 (54:19):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (54:20):
If someone wanted to contact you, what's the best way
to you have a email?
Or LinkedIn, or what would youlike to put in the show notes?
Speaker 2 (54:27):
I am on LinkedIn.
I am on LinkedIn.
I also have an email.
It's my first initial C, mylast name, mcconnell, so it's
CMcConnell.
That may or may not be the yearI was born, so
cmcconnell1968atoutlookcom.
I would welcome any questionsor comments or any advice or any
(54:49):
mentorship.
Speaker 1 (54:50):
Absolutely, and I'll put that in the show notes and
I'll say thank you before I letyou go, because you were a
mentor to me in emergencypreparedness and the teams.
We had a lot of greatconversations when I was coming
and I'm sure that's what allowedme to move up into.
I mean, I finished out as chiefof emergency preparedness,
which I'm very proud of.
That's right.
But, we had a lot ofconversations and you helped me
(55:13):
through that process and Iappreciate it.
Speaker 2 (55:16):
Well, we helped each other.
Speaker 1 (55:18):
Okay, have a great day, chris.
Speaker 2 (55:21):
Thank you, mike.
Thank you, it was an honorbeing on here.
I appreciate you interviewingme.
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