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May 5, 2025 68 mins

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The shocking disparity between training requirements—four weeks to become a correctional officer versus sixteen weeks to become a hairdresser in Washington State—highlights a systemic problem in how we prepare staff to handle some of society's most challenging individuals. Fosnott describes his earliest experiences, including being thrown into supervising inmates during a power outage with zero training, and how these moments shaped his understanding of corrections as a profession requiring specialized skills and knowledge.

As founder of ARC Tactical (Automatic Response Concepts) and director of training with Safe Restraints Inc., Fasnacht has developed innovative approaches to cell extractions, transport procedures, and restraint techniques that prioritize safety for both officers and inmates. His company's training programs have reached correctional facilities across America and internationally, including the United Arab Emirates and Australia, demonstrating the universal need for better tactical preparation in correctional settings.

Whether you're a correctional professional looking to enhance your skills, an administrator seeking to improve your department's safety record, or simply interested in understanding the complex world behind the walls, this episode offers valuable insights into the specialized knowledge required to work effectively in one of society's most demanding environments. 

Check out arctac.net to learn more about upcoming training opportunities and resources for correctional professionals.

Contact Tim @ ARC Tactical: tim@arctac.net

Contact Ian @ Chisel & Stone: Ian@chiselandstone.net

Check Out Michael Cantrell new book: POWER SKILLS for Corrections - You can pre-order here https://amzn.to/4iG2FtX

PepperBall
From crowd control to cell extractions, the PepperBall system is the safe, non-lethal option.

OMNI
OMNI is cutting-edge software designed to track inmates and assets within your prison or jail.

Command Presence
Bringing prisons and jails the training they deserve!

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Take care of each other and Be Safe behind those walls and fences!

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Transcript

Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
I came up with a live stream thing scared me for a
minute.
We're not live, okay.
Well, welcome back to thePrison Officer Podcast.
My name is Mike Cantrell andtoday you're going to have to
remind me again how do I say itFosnott.

Speaker 2 (00:20):
Yeah, Tim.

Speaker 1 (00:21):
Fosnott.
Well hello and welcome back tothe Prison Officer Podcast.
My name is Mike Cantrell andtoday I've got Tim Fosnott.
Well hello and welcome back tothe Prison Officer Podcast.
My name is Mike Cantrell andtoday I've got Tim Fosnott on
here.
For those of you that have beenaround corrections for a while
correctional training you knowof Tim as the owner of Arc
Tactical.
He's a corrections leader withnearly 20 years of experience in

(00:42):
law enforcement, currentlyassigned as the director of our
tactical and the director oftraining with safe restraints.
He's retired as a correctionsacademy commander with an
extensive background in trainingprogram management and advanced
tactics.
Instructor certificates inseveral disciplines, such as

(01:06):
firearms instructor master,defensive tactics instructor,
taser instructor, blue courageinstructor master, rap, safe
restraint instructor and, ofcourse, a cert instructor.
His past assignments includecorrections sergeant, field
training officer, deletion,detention programs to my fault,
detention programs coordinator,adjunct instructor for the
Criminal Justice TrainingCommission and a reserve police

(01:26):
officer.
He brings a unique and thoroughperspective when analyzing the
complex situations correctionalfacilities and staff face every
day.
Welcome to the Prison OfficerPodcast.
Thank you so much Dan.

Speaker 2 (01:40):
It's good to be on.
I'm a fan too, so it's kind ofcool to be on here.
Thank you.

Speaker 1 (01:45):
I appreciate that.
Um, it's really grown and, uh,I get to meet such interesting
people and you're my next one.
I've been, you know, I've I'veseen your classes come up, I've,
uh, you know, paid attention towhat you're doing there and
what you post on linkedin.
You've got some real insight,especially, I'm sure, with the
number of people you train andyou train all over the world.

(02:07):
We'll talk about that.
But where I want to start iswhere I always start on this
podcast when I interview people.
I want to know how you got intocorrections, how you got into
law enforcement work.
So how did that come about?

Speaker 2 (02:23):
Yeah, I think there's a lot of people out there that
got into corrections similar tome.
Right, my story isn't superspecial.
I was, you know, growing up inthe 80s and 90s.
Early 2000s is when I reallystarted to want to get into law
enforcement.
I come from a law enforcementfamily.
My father was a Seattle policeofficer here in Washington State

(02:46):
that's where I'm based out of.
My mother was the first femalecadet in Seattle Police
Department support services area.
She was a dispatcher and thenworked for another agency as
well.
So that came from that lineagethere and that's really where my
heart was.
So that came from that lineagethere and that's really where my

(03:09):
heart was.
But during that time in lawenforcement you would try to
test out for a law enforcementjob and there'd be like two
positions and 400 applicants.
It just wasn't practical.

Speaker 1 (03:19):
Yeah, I've talked about that on here.
People these days do notrealize, do they?

Speaker 2 (03:24):
No, no, there used to be a line out the door of
people just dying to do the jobthat we can't stand anymore.
But that was the culture andpeople were excited to serve Not
to say that they aren't still.
We have some really amazingpeople out there, um, walking

(03:45):
the streets and walking thefloor, but at the time it was,
it was challenging and and Ineeded a job.
You know, it's one of thosethings where you kind of fell
into it.
I wanted to do something in thevein of law enforcement.
I'd become a uh uh reservepolice officer.
I had done some time in supportservices for a local police

(04:07):
agency as well, and I waswaiting for my time to hit the
road and do that.
A corrections position openedup.
People thought I'd be good forit, and so I applied and got it
Excellent.
I just kind of fell in lovewith the profession after that.

Speaker 1 (04:24):
What was that position?

Speaker 2 (04:25):
It was first-line corrections officer, it was
brand-new recruit, you're goingto the academy type situation,
sure, sure, okay, it was kind ofan interesting thing and really
it kind of drove the rest of mycareer.
Because what I found and I'msure I'm not the only one but my

(04:48):
corrections agency and we havethis a lot in Washington it is
rare around the country, but mycorrections agency was attached
to a police department, so itwasn't a County jail, it was
attached to a police department.
And because of that I'll tellyou there's a lot of my law
enforcement friends, my roadbuddies, that when I told them

(05:09):
that I was going to get intocorrections, they're like do not
do that, nobody wants to dothat, that's a bad job.
And I was like well, what areyou talking about?
I'm super excited to be joiningthis.
And they were very discouraging.
I was like man, that's too bad.
And I couldn't tell why.

(05:29):
Once I got into the game,because I loved it, I just fell
in love with the job and I'mreally glad that I stuck it out.
So I'm sure Absolutely so.

Speaker 1 (05:41):
tell me about when you, of course, you grew up in
law enforcement, so you'd heardabout jails, you'd heard about
that stuff, but nobody reallyknows until they walk in.
What was that like?

Speaker 2 (06:05):
is hey look, you're going to get food for the
inmates and drop it off, oryou're going to be the one to
take evidence from here to therefor the police department side,
taking care of the fleet ofpatrol vehicles, that type of
thing, and so I was alwaysadjacent to it.
But I'll tell you the veryfirst time that I was involved
in corrections and this is ahorrible way to start for the
record, but we had a poweroutage in the middle of summer

(06:29):
at our jail and I was in theprocess of getting hired.
I was still working for thisagency, but I was in the process
of getting hired for thiscorrections officer role and
they're like look, we can't justkeep these guys in these cells
like that.
They're going to sweat it outand there's going to be a riot.
So what we're going to do iswe're going to open up all of
the doors and then we needpeople to stay by those doors

(06:54):
and we're out of people.
So you're it.
So here I am, I'm 21.
I don't know nothing aboutnothing.
I've never talked to inmateslike inmates before and they
throw me in front of this wide,open door full of 14 dudes that
aren't super happy to see me,and so that was my first

(07:14):
experience.
But what I found really quicklywas like you know, if you treat
them with respect, they'lltreat you with respect, and
that's where that line is.
I'm like okay, I can, I getthis.
I understand this now.

Speaker 1 (07:25):
Sure, yeah, just treat them like people and a lot
of times you'll get thatreaction back They'll act like
people, absolutely.
There's always the violence,there's always those inmates,
but most of the time, 90% of thetime, we can handle it through
that type of interaction.
Sure.

Speaker 2 (07:41):
For sure I was.
John Oliver has a show I thinkit's called tonight with john
oliver or something like that.
But he was talking about prisonhealth care and one of the
jokes that he said was there's astat out there that 100 of the
inmates in jails are people andI was like, yeah, that's, that's

(08:01):
that really true.

Speaker 1 (08:03):
That's good.
I like that.
Yeah, you're dealing withpeople.
You're working with people,absolutely so, yeah, that had to
have been kind of crazy.
What training had you had incorrections?
Up to that, nothing.
You hadn't been to the academyyet no, no.

Speaker 2 (08:19):
And what was interesting at the time, here in
Washington State we had afour-week academy and it was
like here's all the things forcorrections, good luck.
There was a lot ofproblem-based learning styles.
There was a lot of how wouldyou handle this type of
situation, heavy focus ondefensive tactics, and that's

(08:41):
one of the areas where I fell inlove with defensive tactics
stuff.
But I hadn't gone through anyof that.
I was a martial arts nerd rightfor most most 80s 90s kids
watching the ninja turtles.
So we were like, yeah, we cando this right.
So, um, I, I did some martialarts, some wrestling, so I I

(09:02):
knew how to to be physical andhandle myself, but I didn't have
, I didn't know when I should bedoing those things.
You know, I, I, if you were, ifan incident had broken off
during that time, I would havebeen toast number one physically
.
But then later in the court oflaw I would have no idea what to
be doing or if I did what wasright any of that.

Speaker 1 (09:21):
So yeah, I want to get into this some more.
I want to have this discussionwith you because you do a lot of
training, but I'll just touchon it here.
Four weeks, that's just, andthat's common across America.
You see it, I see it all thetime.
You know, to be a wildlifeofficer, a warden in Texas takes
30 weeks.
You know most police officers.

(09:43):
They get 12 weeks before theyever show up to their department
.

Speaker 2 (09:46):
I'll do you one better here in Washington State
and we did the research becausewe were actually part of the
team that got it legislated toextend it.
So it's now a lot longer, butat the time we were doing
research, it takes 16 weeks tobecome a hairdresser in
Washington State, right, andfour weeks to be among some of
the most violent, mostvulnerable people in our

(10:09):
communities.
Sure, you know so, my my friendand co-teacher, ian Edwards.
He's out of San Antonio, texas.
He was a commander at the timeand we worked through some
processes and got it legislatedto extend it from four weeks to
10 weeks.
But, um, and we had the honorof developing that program and

(10:33):
now we have 10 weeks.
What do we do with it?
How do we maximize it?
So that was a lot of fun, butI'm telling you, at the time we
we had nothing.
I mean, it was four weeks justisn't enough.

Speaker 1 (10:43):
So no, and I see people get thrown in.
I talked to.
It was a very small county inIowa and he had given one of his
newest officers which hedoesn't get a team, you know, a
class.
He gets one or two.
He'd given them three days andthen they went to work in the
block.
And you know what I'd love tosee, and maybe you know where to

(11:05):
find this at, or if somebodyout there does, I'd love it to
email it to me.
What is more likely?
Who is more likely to have ause of force early in their
career, or forces a correctionalofficer or law enforcement
officer?
You know, I'd love to see thestats.

Speaker 2 (11:24):
Yeah, I, I, I'm sure they're out there.
I think, anecdotally, what I'veexperienced in my career, but
also, you know, we have accessto hundreds and hundreds of
officers doing the work throughour training what we find is,
most of the time, our ceos arefighting with people more than
our law enforcement officers.
Right, and that's for a couplereasons, right?

(11:46):
Reason number one when a lawenforcement officer arrests
somebody, they bring him to usand typically the fight's not
out of them, right?
Yep, so we have to handlealmost 100% of the people that
the officers bring in.
Okay, they have an opportunityto deal with the public that you
know have a lost kitty orsomething like that.
Right, sure, for us there's nokitties in jail.

(12:09):
100% of them have been arrestedfor something.
Nope, probably not in the bestmental state, because nobody
likes their freedom taken away.
But that's just people comingin.
We're also dealing with all thepeople that are already in
there, you know.
So we're, we're doubling up onthat.
So, anecdotally, I I want tosay that we are probably more

(12:32):
likely to go hands-on, lesslikely to draw guns or any of
those things, um, on the regular.
But when it comes to unarmed orless lethal tools, those types
of of altercations we got tobeat, I'm sure of it.

Speaker 1 (12:47):
Yeah, I started off at a very violent place.
So I mean, in the door Ishattered for a couple of days
and then, you know, somebody hadto work someplace else and you
had to block yourself, right,and so we went right at it.
Yeah, that's.
I want to get deeper into that.
I want to learn more about thatbecause I don't think.

(13:08):
Just, I was on Facebook theother day and, uh, they were
talking about was it okay tohave 18 year olds as
correctional officers, or shouldthey be 21, or should they be
28?
And one of the answers was youknow well, an 18 year old could
serve their country.
They can grab a rifle and go towar.
And I said, yeah, but they geta whole lot more training to do
that.

Speaker 2 (13:31):
You know nothing against the military.

Speaker 1 (13:32):
But I'm just saying they get a, you get to go
through basics.
I'd love to put correctionalofficers through a level of
training that prepared them.

Speaker 2 (13:40):
I'll tell you that you know my angle on that
because you're right, there's alot of 18-year-olds out there
that are trying to getexperience almost similar to me.
I'll tell you, if they had beenhiring at 18, I would have been
a CEO then.

Speaker 1 (13:55):
They are across the country.

Speaker 2 (13:57):
now I know, I know I would not have been prepared for
it, and not just for thephysical command, presence
control type situation.
The biggest issue that I see isin minute inmate manipulation.
Yeah, because as an 18 year oldkid I don't know nothing.
Right, I think that I know somestuff, but the games that

(14:18):
inmates play are, and just toget a ibuprofen, I mean it's
ridiculous and you can't.
I'll tell you, when I startedat 21, I wasn't prepared for
those things.
I had to learn those the hardway, with excellent mentors at
my facility, right.
But if you don't have that,that's why we're going to have a

(14:41):
huge shift of criminal activityfrom corrections officers,
because they're kind of put downa path that they're not
prepared for.
And it's a challenging, notjust physically but, you know,
emotionally, mental health wise,it's a challenge.

Speaker 1 (14:59):
Sure, I think it's the manipulation that jaded me
the most.
I wasn't ready.
I hadn't been around people whomanipulated you like that and I
went from being a fairlytrusting person to trusting no
one and it took a long time toget over that.
You have to get some maturityand some experience to get over
that.

(15:19):
But that was probably thehardest thing on me was the
manipulation, the fights Hell,I'd been in fights my entire
life.
That wasn't right.
That wasn't that big a deal.
But I'd never had people try todeceive me at that level.

Speaker 2 (15:33):
so yeah, everybody's trying to run a game on you, you
know, um, and if they're not,you're like, yeah, you are right
, like there's a little.
There's a little bit of thatand, oddly enough, this is one
of the things that was hardestto transfer into the business
world, right?
So when I left in 2021, I wasworking with a lot of agencies

(15:56):
and I was working with peoplethat were outside of law
enforcement, doing self-defenseclasses, and I still felt like,
okay, I'm going to work.
Now People are going to try torun a game on me and I, I I'll
be honest, I still feel that waysometimes.
I'm still highly suspicious ofpeople, you know, but, um, it's
getting better, uh, but thatthat environment is just prone

(16:20):
for that, oh, absolutely you.

Speaker 1 (16:23):
You mentioned something.
You mentioned it a couple oftimes.
I know I'm getting off the mark.
I'll get back to your careerhere in a minute, but a couple
of things have just stirred me.
And you keep talking aboutdefensive tactics and I think a
lot of what.
The reason I'm thinking aboutthis is because of what I've, in
some curriculum I've beendeveloping lately Control
techniques.

(16:43):
We do a lot with defensivetactics.
I did when I went in, you know,and in the Bureau of Prisons.
I wasn't real excited.
Most of theirs was reverse crabcrawls, so that you keep from
getting stabbed.
I didn't think that was realgood.
But the Missouri Department ofCorrections we did quite a bit
with defensive tactics butcontrol techniques.

(17:05):
And when you go on youtuberight now and look at the videos
over and over and over again, Isee officers without good
control techniques, withoutknowing how to use an arm bar,
just a basic arm bar, to getcontrol and get cuffs on
somebody.
Um, how are we doing betterwith that these days?
Is that something you guys areum?

Speaker 2 (17:26):
yeah, out there.
You know that's such a greatquestion because, um, I think
there's been a focus and, listen, I'm, I'm a jujitsu guy, I like
, I like those grappling arts,um, and there's a lot of value
and there's a lot of transfer tolaw enforcement.
For sure, I'll never saythere's not.
When it comes to corrections,though, I think we find

(17:47):
ourselves in positions where wecan stop the fight before the
fight, simply by gaining controlwith some of those techniques,
right.
If it goes south from there,yeah, I'm going to turn my
jujitsu on, I'm going to wrapyou up and you're not going to
know what's happening, right.
But before that, if I can get ahold of an, an arm, if I can
get a grip or some type of hold,that just lets them know, hey,

(18:08):
look, we're, we're serious here,right?
No need to get crazy.
Those things, um, sometimes getoverlooked because they're not
flashy.
You know, it's nothing, it'snothing cool, it's, it's not the
ninja turtles, right, it's, uh,it's, you know, very simple
stuff, um.
So, to answer your question, we, we absolutely do handle that.

(18:29):
One of the things in correctionsthat I've found is that, though
, jujitsu techniques 100 help,because that's kind of the bench
right now in defensive tacticsworld and law enforcement and
corrections.
It's focusing on jujitsu and,again, I train.
I love that sport, but it's asport, right?

(18:50):
There are rules to it, justlike the UFC.
There are rules to that.
There's no rules on the inmateside of the house.
When we get into an altercation, they have a say in that.
So, when it comes to thecorrection side, what we try to
focus on is a transition betweenall of those different

(19:10):
techniques or concepts.
Really, we focus what we callas principle based systems.
Right, why does something work?
So if I'm fighting withsomebody, I'm probably not going
to try to put them in agooseneck or an armbar at that
point, right, because we'reusing the wrong tool for the
wrong situation.
So I might kick that up a bit.
The other thing that we foundis there is a lack of focus on

(19:32):
team tactics, and there's plentyof videos out there I know
because I make fun of them whenI teach my classes but there's
an officer who will get sometype of limb control and then
their partner will come in andthen they'll both try to do a
move opposite of each other andthen rip the guy in half, right,
like there's no concept of teamtactics, and so early on in our

(19:56):
game, we developed a verycomprehensive program to work
with each other instead ofagainst each other, to work with
each other instead of againsteach other.
And then I guess the third pointI'll say on defensive tactics
and corrections is that I'm notgoing to say all the time, but I
would say, in law enforcementon the road, your main goal is

(20:19):
one officer, two officers,against one offender.
Right, there's typically wehave one bad guy, we're going to
arrest that bad guy and that'sit In our jails.
Yeah, we have some officersthat are nearby, but we're
typically moving 20, 30.
Sometimes there's a county herein Washington state that you
have one officer in a pod with75 inmates, right.

(20:41):
So how do you do thateffectively?
What are the techniques thatyou can use?
Because, I'll tell you, if youtry to get on the ground with
somebody and we can't put themto sleep anymore, right, but if
we try to get them down on theground, you're gonna get your
head stomped in, and and sothat's not gonna work.
Yeah, so we have a lot of umagain, principle-based systems.

(21:04):
We call them systems becausethey have to interlock and work
with in flow and all that.
We have a lot of, again,principle-based systems.
We call them systems becausethey have to interlock and work
in flow and all that stuff.
But how do I protect myself?
How do I protect my partner?
How do we work together?
How do I exfil out of the cell,get more people, get more tools
, more resources and strategize?
So that's a long-winded answerto your question.

(21:29):
No, basic, basic control.
It's still there, not flashy,it's not highlighted.
Uh, and I think, as instructors, that's one of the reasons why
I think what we're doing isreally important in the industry
.
You're an instructor at youragency and you're going to show
an armbar for the 10,000th time.
You're going to get bored andpeople aren't going to want to
hear that from you.

(21:49):
So by being able to come infrom the outside and say, no,
this is valid, this is why it'svalid.
It tends to hold a little bitmore weight in that.

Speaker 1 (22:01):
So yeah, and it's not only the safety effect.
Just like you and I watchingthese videos, there's the public
watching these videos and whenthey see officers who are able
to get ahold of an inmate andtake control, that looks so much
better from a liabilitystandpoint.
When five of us are wrestling aguy on the ground and

(22:23):
somebody's throwing a haymakerover the top, you know that's
where it goes on the nightlynews for sure.
Some of this bad rap in the, inthe corrections industry well
you're never gonna see.

Speaker 2 (22:35):
It's very rare that you see a use of force incident.
That is pretty, that makes thenews.
That's true.
You just don't see it becausethere's no story there.
Right, everybody did what wewere supposed to do and it
worked out and that's it right.
But one of the things that myfriend Ian Edwards again, he's

(22:57):
from Chisel and Stone Training.
He does a lot of de-escalationstuff.
He's awesome, so shameless plugthere.
A lot of de-escalation stuff.
He's awesome, so shameless plugthere.
But he points out that thepublic expects excellence but we
train to the level ofcompetence, right, and that is a
huge discrepancy on humanperformance.

(23:18):
That's just not how people work, right, absolutely.
So it's always a challenge onthat so let me get back.
So you're a correctional officer, you're learning how to be a
correctional officer, um, andyou get the opportunity to
promote yeah, well, you know,what was interesting about our

(23:40):
agency is it was it has recentlygrown, um, but at the time when
I first started it was a cohortof officers and then one jail
commander.
There was no intermediate,there was no sergeants or no
corporals or no lieutenants,there was no promoting, and so
during that period of time I'msomebody that gets bored easily,

(24:04):
it's just my personality.
I got to be doing something andso I started leaning into
different aspects of the careerand kind of leaning on my
experience.
When I first started feelingcompletely under-trained, even
with the four weeks of academytraining and my FTO after that,
I just felt like, well, whathappens if we have this

(24:27):
situation?
And even my mentors were like,well, we go in and thump them a
lot and hope for the best right,like there was no real answer,
real protocol for that.
Sure, and at the time WashingtonState had a really robust
defensive tactics instructorprogram that I think is probably

(24:50):
800 hours total, throughdifferent disciplines like level
one, level two, uh, weaponretention, ground survival,
pepper spray, like they coveredeverything and it all led to
essentially what was a collegecourse in motor learning science
.
Uh, the guy that wrote thatcourse is on or was on the board

(25:12):
of force science, um, so heknew what he was talking about.
It turns out, um, but we got.
We got a crash course in thatum, we had seminars on use of
force law, uh, continuously gotupdated on that.
So because his vision was, whenyou become a master defensive
tactics instructor, you got toknow all the things and not just

(25:37):
how to do the things, when todo them, expected outcomes, you
know how to write about it, allof that stuff.
And so I was like that's what Iwant to do with my career.
I want to learn.
I want, when somebody has thequestions that I have, I want
them to come to career.
I want to learn.
I want, when somebody has thequestions that I have, I want
them to come to me and I cangive them the answer and help
them out.
Like that was my goal.

(25:57):
And so I leaned into that and Istarted training.
So about a year and a half in Istarted that process.
Nobody from the policedepartment side wanted to do it,
which was interesting.
So I got to train both ourcorrections guys and our patrol
guys.
And you know that was aninteresting thing because at the

(26:17):
time there was very much aseparation or an isolation
between the two.
You know, the corrections wasthe necessary evil, like, yeah,
we know you guys are there, butwe're cops right, we have a show
named after us, right.
So, um, but having somebodyfrom the correction side of the
house go into the patrol side ofthe house and train those guys,

(26:38):
they're like, oh well, you guyscan handle your stuff.
I'm like, yeah, I'm not unique.
It turns out they're all of uscan.
Um, so I leaned into that, gotmy master defensive tactics
instructor certification, um,and then I was like, well, what
else is there?
Uh?
So I started doing, uh, taserstuff and less lethal um.

(27:01):
Uh, started working with someagent.
We didn't have a dedicated certteam at my agency, so I started
working with people that didand started learning about that,
took some courses on that,became a field training officer.
I just really liked the idea oftraining and helping improve
others, because if I couldn'tpromote up which you know wasn't

(27:24):
necessarily something that Iwanted that leadership piece
didn't really speak to me at thetime, but there wasn't an
opportunity anyway, so I didn'teven consider it.
So with FTO, if you have an FTOprogram at your agency, you
know that you're trulyconsidered their first-line

(27:44):
supervisor that recruitsfirst-line supervisor.

Speaker 1 (27:47):
So were you coming from corrections and doing the
fto on the law enforcement side,the police no, mainly the
interaction with law enforcementis with combatives and stuff
like that.

Speaker 2 (27:59):
um, but that was kind of, that was kind of the.
The thing is just leaning intotraining.
Um, I got told, no, a lot, uh,which was kind of interesting,
you know.
I hey, I want to try this nowand they're like, no, we're
gonna bring out somebody else toit.
One of the major things that wefound was, um, you know, we,
because we were a smaller agency, we did all of the things,

(28:20):
meaning I could show up to workand I'm not stuck at booking or
release or in a pod.
I could show up, book a guy in,throw my gun on, do a transport
back, do a cell extraction,like we could do those things.
But we always we were allcertified to carry a firearm.
There were no correctionsinstructors for firearms at our

(28:41):
agency and my agency was veryold school where they're like,
yeah, corrections officers can'tbe firearms instructors,
clearly, because they'recorrections officers.
That doesn't work.
And around that time I startedworking with our local academy
here and they liked what I wasdoing, teaching our defensive
tactics stuff, and they said,hey, look, we'll pay you to go

(29:05):
become a firearms instructor andwe'll pay for all the course.
So you just got to get the timeoff at your agency.
And it was one of those pressit moments where I talked that
back to my agency and they'relike, well, you can't do that.
I said, well, I'm going to beon vacation and you don't get to
tell me where I can and can'tgo on vacation, so I'm going to

(29:25):
come back with a certificate.
If you want me to work for youthen then I'd be happy to do
that.
And so that's what I did.
And I came back and, sureenough, about a weekend, they're
like we really want you totrain the corrections officers
how to shoot guns now.
So it was one of those things.

(29:47):
But that's kind of how I didn'tpromote up right away.
I leaned into training.
That's been a passion of mineever since and that's kind of
why we do what we're doing now.

Speaker 1 (29:54):
So what you mentioned .
There's something I talked torookies about quite a bit, and
that is sometimes you have toinvest in yourself If you're
going to sit around and wait,you know, for somebody, for the
agency to invest in you.
There's only a certain amountof slots.
You know, I went out and didsame as you.
I paid for my own courses, didit on vacation.

(30:14):
Once a year I went somewhereand learned something new, and
what that does over the courseof a career is you become very
valuable to that agency.
Yeah, because you're the onebringing the new ideas, you're
the one bringing the new skills,you're the one up on what's
changing.
Yeah, so I recommend that foreveryone.
You're the one up on what'schanging, so I recommend that
for everyone.

Speaker 2 (30:31):
I do and I think I've thought about this a lot and
there's kind of a rift in someof our newer officers.
And it's a generational thing,right?
Because if you think about it,you have a generation of
officers that watched theirparents or people go to work
every day, invest in themselvesso that they can bring more

(30:52):
value to their agency and havealmost be a conduit for an
outside entity.
And then September 11thhappened, and now it's wow, all
these people were showing up towork that day to give their
lives to that organization, andthey're not here anymore.
So maybe we need to shift wherewe put our energy, and, though

(31:14):
I understand that for sure, Ithink bringing value to your
profession because that's whatit is it's not a job, it is a
profession.
Not everybody can do this.
A job is something anybody cando.
Corrections is a profession,and if you're going to bring
value to that profession, youneed to be a student of the game

(31:35):
.
Whether it's for you, for youragency, for your partners, for
your family, you need to putthat energy in.
So I'm a huge believer that,though, yeah, your agency might
take advantage of you, theymight not support you and then,
after they don't support you,they might still try to take
advantage of you.
Right, you do it for you andfor your partners, not for them.

Speaker 1 (31:57):
Yeah, absolutely.
And I think we are in an era,you see it, with the political
and social climate right now, ofthis distrust, so everybody has
this distrust above them.
But what kind of changed.
My whole viewpoint of my pointin the profession was when I

(32:17):
became a trainer and then itbecame personal.
And you know, I'm not takingcare of the agency, I'm taking
care of that person and thatperson, I'm making them better,
and that was a changing point inmy career, absolutely.
And that was a changing pointin my career Absolutely.

Speaker 2 (32:31):
Yeah, you know, I was very lucky enough to have some
immediate positive reinforcementfrom my training.
I was teaching a class at ouracademy.
The class graduated, we endedup booking a lot of inmates from
other agencies.

(32:51):
So I didn't always see and Ishould probably go back.
Our academy is the way it's setup here in Washington state is
that every CEO, every policeofficer goes to one central
location.
They have different classes butthey're one central location.
So I could be going into aclass of police officers and
train five, six, seven differentagencies in a class of 30.

(33:14):
The benefit of that is later onin life, when that officer went
back to their agency arrested,some guy brought him to me.
We had a relationship alreadybuilt in and I want to say,
right on FTO, this kid was fresh, you know, with his field
training officer came in, bookeda guy in and thanked me because

(33:35):
one of the things that I toldhim or showed him worked and I
was like, oh, I like the waythis feels I'm going to do this
a lot Right.
So I had that positivereinforcement as a trainer.
But that feeling is something.
If it ever happens to you, youknow that that's what you're
supposed to be doing.

Speaker 1 (33:52):
So yeah, yeah, so how you stayed there for how long?

Speaker 2 (33:58):
yeah, I was there until oh, let's see 2020, and
anybody that worked in the jailsin 2020 realized a couple of
things happened.
There's this thing called COVID.
It wasn't awesome.
That time period was verychallenging.
In our facility.

(34:19):
We got rid of as many inmatesas we possibly could.
Just oddly enough, as COVID washappening, some stuff happened
in Minneapolis in 2020.
Enough, as COVID was happening,some stuff happened in
Minneapolis in 2020 where causedculturally officers not to want
to go arrest people anymore.
Some stuff happened in 2020here in Washington, where

(34:43):
Seattle got taken over.
They gave up a precinct.
There were protests on I-5.
We would transport inmatesthrough that protest area.
That was our route.
We had to go through the mainthoroughfare on Interstate 5.
And you didn't know they couldbe blocking the freeway.
You didn't know what you'regoing to encounter, and so we

(35:04):
limited those transports.
It was just a really gnarlyplace to be and there wasn't a
lot of activity.
You know, when I first started,we'd be rocking and rolling
from the time we put our firstfoot in that jail to when we
left, right In 2020, I'd come in, there'd be no one waiting to

(35:26):
be booked, wasn't a lot ofactivity going on.
Nothing was happening, and thatwas a 12-hour shift, sure, and
I, I mentioned that I need to bedoing something.
Uh, I I get bored, easy right.
So during that time I was like,well, maybe we can focus our

(35:46):
efforts on training.
Well, because of covid, wecouldn't be near each other, we
couldn't be really doinganything effective, we'd get in
trouble for that.
And so it became very apparentthat, being on night shift as a
supervisor, I wasn't beingeffective.
It was affecting my mentalhealth.

(36:06):
I wasn't being a good leader.
There was ways that I needed tochange to feel my purpose again,
and that's when a spot openedup at our academy to be a
full-time TAC officer.
Tac is Training, administrationand Coach, and our goal with
those is to have one or two ormaybe even three TAC officers

(36:30):
facilitating training.
So when that came out, Iapplied.
My agency wasn't happy about it, um, but they realized we're
not really doing anything anyway.
Uh, so they, they sent me downthere and I did that for about
two months and, uh, at the time,the corrections side,
corrections side their commanderleft for another position and

(36:53):
they're like Tim, you're the guy.
So I got promoted to that levelthere and ran that for about a
year.
At the same time, I had beendeveloping my business, and
that's a whole different trackbecause, like I said, I always
have to be doing something.
I started my business in 2012.
So it's been going all throughmy corrections career.

(37:14):
But any entrepreneurs out thererealize, hey, there's a point
where you can keep your safefull-time job and do that, or
you can be risky and lean intothe thing that you're passionate
about.
And I had the opportunity, withsafe restraints, um, to work

(37:35):
with them on a contract basis tohelp supplement some income,
and it was the time time to go.
So that's when I turned in mypapers and leaned into our
tactical.

Speaker 1 (37:44):
So uh, tell me a little bit about safe restraints
.
I know what it is.
Not everybody does.
I worked at a mental healthinstitution.
A lot of those things weutilized, yeah, so tell us a
little bit about that.

Speaker 2 (38:00):
If you don't know what the RAP is, it's built by a
company called Safe RestraintsInc.
The RAP is I don't want to saya restraint chair replacement,
because it's a completelydifferent type of tool, but it's
essentially a human burritothat is designed to keep
somebody safe.
You know, we came to the RAP atmy agency at a similar way that

(38:26):
most people do.
Hey, we have a restraint chair,we have a need.
This person's very highlycombative.
If we put them in a cell justfree to roam around, they're
probably going to hurtthemselves.
So we got to do something morerestrictive to control this
person With our chair.
It was one of those ones thatsat up a little bit.
We'd fight somebody down on theground because we're in a fight
.
We'd get them cuffed up andthen, because we were super

(38:49):
smart, we'd stand them back upagain.
After gaining all that ground,we just gave it right back and
then we'd have to fight more tosit them in the chair right, and
then we'd have to lean themforward to take their hands out
from behind their back and cuffthem in.
The little arm stirrups there,and so, after doing that
hundreds and hundreds of times,one night we did this with a

(39:13):
female and I'll tell you some ofthe knockdown drag out fights
that I've ever been in withscrappy, scrawny little females.
But my sergeant at the time gotkicked and I was like, well,
why did this happen?
I'm the DT guy, how could thishave possibly happened?
Why did this happen?
I'm the DT guy, how could thishave possibly happened?
And the conclusion that I cameto was in order to put somebody

(39:35):
in that chair, you kind of haveto take a bad tactical position.
You kind of have to be right infront of that person,
especially to do the legs right.
And I started doing someresearch to see what else was
out there, and we made contactwith the RAP.
And the RAP's main goal was heylook, how do we keep people safe

(39:55):
, not just our officers, but thepeople in communities, right,
the people that are having a badday, and one of our taglines is
you know, don't let a bad daybe their last day, because we
want to stop that fight quickly,right that conflict quickly.
The longer a fight's allowed togo on, the more dangerous it is
.
We all know that right, notjust for us but for them, if

(40:17):
their body is exercising at arate that it can't sustain.
That's a problem, right right.
So we got to stop that conflictvery quickly and then get them
upright so that they can breathe.
Right, positional compressionalasphyxiation.
There's tons of studies outthere that all contradict each
other but all say no, there'ssomething to this, right Right.

(40:39):
And so putting them in abreathing positive position is
what we got to do and that'swhat the RAP does, so you can
look at it.
Saferestraintscom.
The concept is very simple Ifyou're going to put somebody
down on the ground becauseyou're in a fight, let's put the
restraint on them when they'rethere, instead of having to go
up down, up down, forward allthat stuff.
It locks the legs out so theycan't kick you.

(41:00):
It has a harness to get themoff their chest so that they can
breathe, and it's an amazingtool.
So I linked up with themprofessionally when I was at my
agency because I needed a bettertool.
I found them.
They're the easiest company towork with.
The owner, charles, is afantastic guy.
He sent me a test unit I was aDT guy and we beat it up and it

(41:26):
held the distance.
So we adopted it.
And it held, held the distance,so we adopted it.
And then, because of you know,my, my training world and some
of the defensive tactics worldsthat I've been, I I tend to have
a lot of contacts and um, Istarted teaching for him as an
adjunct rap instructor and um,those went well, you know.

(41:48):
So he was kind enough to offerme a director of training
position to help fix not fix tohelp refine some of their
training materials that they hadat the time, you know, creating
PowerPoints and stuff like that, and then teach classes and
kind of get the word out thatit's a better tool and that's

(42:08):
what that role was.
So that definitely helped ARCTactical grow to what it is
today.
Yeah, to get the word out thatit's a better tool and that
that's what that role was.

Speaker 1 (42:11):
So right, um, that definitely helped our tactical
grow to what it is today yeah,so you go in and you teach who
are going to be the instructorsfor the agency.

Speaker 2 (42:20):
That's it yeah, yeah, um, you know, these days, with
turnover the way it is, it'shard to to get.
You put a lot of money intosome 18-year-old right.
They get invested in, they getall this stuff and then a police
job opens up.
It gets more pay for somereason Still haven't figured

(42:42):
that out but they go and leaveand now we have to start back.
So instead of certifying fromthe company, each individual
person, we certify theirinstructors and spend
significant support time aroundthem making sure that they're

(43:04):
100% ready to go and teach therest of their team.
There's test processes for that, but that's the project there
is.
They get emboldened andcertified to teach their team
and begin with that goal ofkeeping people safe.

Speaker 1 (43:13):
Yeah, that's such an important being a master
instructor the one that teachesother instructors train the
trainer.
That's so important because ifyou don't have the right person
in that trainer position for theagency, the product's going to
fail.
I mean, I work for Pepperballso I see this.
You know, if you don't havethat instructor who takes that
and it feels comfortable with it, they're not going to use the

(43:35):
product, they're not going tofeel comfortable with it as an
agency.
So it's an important thing thatyou do.

Speaker 2 (43:41):
Thank you.
We also know that if it getsout there and it doesn't happen,
thank goodness right, ithappens, maybe like I don't know
every couple of years orsomething, where there'd be a
gnarly news story or somethinglike that.
But our training is always free,right, that's the cool thing.
It's provided at no cost oninitial adoption.

(44:02):
It's provided at no cost everytwo years.
It's provided at no cost ondemand, like if you're an agency
that's big.
They're like hey look, we needmore instructors, call us and
we'll do it for free then too,right?
So we have a vested interest inmaking sure that our
instructors out there are doingwhat they're supposed to be
doing, because it reps us aswell, right, and that's that's

(44:25):
important.
But our main goal is to giveour people a tool that will keep
them safe, keep our communitysafe, keep us out of the
courtroom, that type of thing.

Speaker 1 (44:37):
And there's also correct me if I'm wrong you guys
also have like some gloves thatcover the hands and stuff.
That's where I got to know youguys.
Is that right, because we do alot of four points in the Bureau
of Prisons and with thosemental health guys you can
four-point a guy and he canstill reach a stitch or

(44:57):
somewhere where he's hurthimself.
So yeah, those gloves where youcould cover them up and keep
them from injuring themselvesfurther.

Speaker 2 (45:05):
Yeah, we call them security mitts, but you're
exactly right.
They're like pads that goaround the hand.
They work around handcuffs.
You could get them connected orunconnected and they have a
panel in there, right, so athing like a Kydex panel that
makes it so you can't gripanything.
You're just scratching a wall,essentially, right, so you can't

(45:27):
do anything effective.
But it's all made out of thisvery comfortable nylon mesh that
is not going to lacerate you.
It's not going to cause anydamage.
It's simply a tool to protectthemselves from themselves.
We have a lot of ingesters, wehave a lot of self-harmers, and
to the average person, they'relike well, why would they do

(45:47):
that?
I don't know either, but theydo and we see it and it's
horrible.
It's it's horrible to see, andso we want to make sure that
they can't hurt themselves,especially when they're in our
care, and that's a great tool tostop doing that.

Speaker 1 (46:03):
So yeah, that's one of the worst things about our
prisons being used as mentalhealth facilities these days.
I've seen guys who could take apaint chip.
You could take everything awayand they'll get a paint chip and
just cut themselves up and thepublic doesn't understand that.
It's almost impossible to stopsome of that stuff.
So that's where I learned aboutyour guys' company was, you

(46:24):
know, researching some of thatand using some of it Sure.
So what does ARC stand for?

Speaker 2 (46:33):
That's a great question.
I would love to have someawesome, amazing, inspiring
story.
Truth is, I knew I wanted tostart my own company.
I was in traffic on I-5,because that's what you do on
I-5, as you sit in traffic and Iwas like like, look, I don't
want to have some gnarly namelike kick-ass tactical or

(46:55):
something like that.
No, no government agency isgoing to hire that and be
effective for obvious reasons,and that's not really our bent.
In anyway, right, where ourgoal is to um, use
principle-based training to makeall officers safe and injuries
less, all that stuff.
But, um, I was like you knowwhen, when I was learning to be

(47:21):
an instructor, I kind of doveinto the motor learning science
stuff and they talk about, um,different processing, like
system one, system twoprocessing.
There's a great book out therecalled Blink that talks about
immediately recognizing stuff.
You probably have it on yourback shelf, is that right?
There you go.

(47:43):
Yep, there you go.
Malcolm Gladwell, awesome book.
There's a more dense version ofvery similar material called
thinking fast and slow, um, and,and that heavily dives into
system one and system twoprocessing.
And just a quick breakdownbecause I promise that'll answer
your question.

(48:03):
Um, the idea is.
You know, uh, one system staysin the long-term memory.
It it's something that you canrecall, it's something that you
have time to process and you candrag it out.
The other system is like hey, Ineed to be able to read this
situation right now and create aresponse to that.

(48:25):
That's appropriate.
One of the demos that we takeour instructors through is we
say hey, look, finish thissentence and I'll do it with you
real quick.
Finish this sentence.
Bread and Milk Okay, mostpeople say butter.
So that was a yeah, they thinkpickles, I don't know.

(48:45):
Anyway, then we say, okay, thatwas a pretty automatic response
.
Why?
How did you know that?
Well, we heard this phrase athousand times.
We know what it is.
Oh, it's cool, let's do itagain.
How many vowels are in breadand butter?
Well, now I have to startthinking.
Right now I have to startdissecting.
You don't know that because youdon't think about that all the
time.

(49:15):
And so, when we look at thedifferent systems, what we need
to apply to corrections is anautomatic response.
If I open up a cell door andthere's a haymaker coming my way
, I don't have time to be like,hey, that's interesting, he's
using all of his fists at thatangle.
That's really good.
I don't have time to do that.
It needs to be automatic.
And so ARC, arc, tact arctactical stands for automatic
response concepts.
Our goal is to train people sowell and so frequently that when

(49:39):
the bad thing happens, when thedevil knocks at your door,
you're going to have thatautomatic response and not have
to have that buffering.
I like that, that's cool.
I always want an acronym Copslove acronyms and triangles for
some reason, I'm not sure why.
Yeah, that's what we do.

Speaker 1 (49:54):
Yeah, and yeah, I have looked into.
You know the way people learn,adult learning and you're
absolutely right with a lot ofthat stuff.
The bad thing in our professionsometimes is that those
automatic responses happen andwe, you know we respond to them,
but then someone who's notusing that same level of

(50:17):
response they're using theirsystem too is reviewing you
three days later on what you hada millisecond to come up with.
And that's what all of us,that's a challenge for all of us
.

Speaker 2 (50:27):
Yeah, absolutely.
You know, one of the things thatI do on as a part of our
wraparound services with ARC isthat I do expert witness
testimony and review, andoftentimes we'll have our
officers get hung out or theagency hung out to drive because
, somewhere along the line, asupervisor who is put in a

(50:51):
position that they weren'ttrained to evaluate or they
weren't trained on this learningstyle stuff.
They have stripes or they gotbars and they're doing the best
that they can.
I'm not even kicking theirshins.
They just don't understand.
And so, with that lack ofunderstanding, they'll make a
judgment call on that use offorce, and that use of force

(51:12):
could be well justified andwithin policy, given the
information that we know at thetime, which is what the standard
is.
That's objective,reasonableness, right, and so
that type of information howpeople perceive things, how they
learn, how they respond tothings, in conjunction with how
the law was written that'sreally one of the ways that our

(51:34):
tactical shines as we combineall of those things with our
physical skill concepts.
So we do all of that and youknow we have use of force review
classes, we have stuff forthose supervisors that are in
that evaluation role.

Speaker 1 (51:52):
That's great.
I didn't know you had those.

Speaker 2 (51:54):
We got all kinds of stuff man.

Speaker 1 (51:57):
That's great Because even for me, when I became a
captain, I mean I've reviewed500 use of forces.
That's the type of places Iworked at and even for myself,
knowing that I had and I haddone 500 before I ever reviewed
500.
Right, you walk in there andyou watch the film and you go
well, son of a gun, did you seewhat they did?
And you've got to be able tostep back.

(52:20):
And we tend to go to film soquick before we listen to what
the officer told us, before welisten to what the other people
in the area told us, and we justcount on what we see.
And what we see is not alwayscorrect.
I can name one veryspecifically that I thought the
the officer was just throwingpunches.

(52:40):
We'll come to find out theinmate on the bottom was biting
another officer and he wastrying to get him off there
which is legitimate all day longyou know.
So, yeah, I'm glad to hear thatyou're giving those classes to
supervisors and hopefullyteaching them to take that step
back and understand what they'reseeing.

Speaker 2 (52:58):
You know, whenever I review a case, there's a couple
of questions that I ask, right,and the first question was why
did you do the thing that youdid?
Okay, and we see there's somany times we get lost in
operations, right, like, hey,look this guy highly combative
person, he's in the cell butit's messy.

(53:19):
So I got to go clean the cell,fight's on.
Well, why did you do What's'smore important?
He's going to get sick becauseit's a messy cell or, for sure,
we're going to beat this guy,right, like what's what's worse?
So why are we doing the thingthat you're doing?
And then, secondarily, how areyou trained to do the thing that
you did?
Right, and most of the timethat I know this isn't going to

(53:41):
be shocking to you, but most ofthe time the answer is oh, oh, I
didn't get training on that, Ijust made it up and it's not
going to work in a court of law,you know.
So we got to, our agencies needto be putting more effort into
how they're training people andit's one of those things like,
look, you're going to pay now oryou're going to pay later,

(54:02):
because that's one of the thingsthat we hear Not a lot, those
things like, look, you're goingto pay now or you're going to
pay later, cause that's one ofthe things that we hear Not a
lot.
We don't nickel and dime peoplefor our classes but like, yeah,
we got to put it in a differentbudget Cause well, that's cool.
But when you're on the standand you're explaining why you
didn't provide training and youranswer was, well, we had to put
it in the next budget Cause wedidn't have time, that we didn't
have the finances.
Now that you're going to bepaying a lot more, I mean,

(54:23):
that's just how it is, and so Iwould rather take the approach
of hey, let's invest in ourstaff, let's make them feel like
they are confident in their job, that they're cared for, that
they're valued, get them thetools to handle these highly
dangerous situations and end upkeeping the inmates safe as well
and not having to be reactiveoff an injury or a death,

(54:46):
instead of getting ahead of thatgame right.
So that's kind of our advocacythere.

Speaker 1 (54:51):
And retention.
Everybody's talking aboutretention.
You want to keep your staff,make them feel knowledgeable,
make them feel like they knowwhat they're doing and they're
supported and they're cared forJust everything you said there.
That's an officer who will stay.
That's an officer who's notdoing it just for the money.
They're doing it for theprofession, because they care
about what they're doing.

Speaker 2 (55:12):
One of the taglines that we have on our website is
train your staff to retain yourstaff, yeah, and you just need
to make them feel confident.
I'll tell you, stacking up on adoor, like am I?
Am I supposed to be going inhere?
Where am I, you know?
Not feeling confident in yourabilities, not feeling confident

(55:32):
with having a system to workwith my teammates.
They're not confident either.
Right, like, let's not.
They're like.
One guy's done this a couple oftimes before.
Let's figure this out.
There is no like you get doneat the end of the day.
You're beat up, you go home,your spouse sees you.
They don't want you to be doingthat again because they care
about you.
That's how you're going to havethat high turnover.

Speaker 1 (55:53):
Let's avoid all of that you know and I mean I'm old
now, right, I could tell younow every stainless steel toilet
I hit going through the door.
You know my knees are tore upand I've got a shoulder that I
get shots in every three monthsnow from a dog pile.
Uh, you know you pay for itlater.
Yeah, you said so.

(56:15):
What's?
What's the class that you knowarc's teaching the most right
now?
What?
What are the agencies lookingfor and what are you guys doing?

Speaker 2 (56:22):
that great question.
Um, we have three main classes.
Um, that we've.
You know, our first class thatwe ever taught was a cell
extraction class.
Right, and the reason why wedid that is because, first of
all, there wasn't anything elseout there.
Um, I was like, okay, I want mepersonally, tim wants to go to

(56:44):
a class on how to do aneffective cell extraction, and I
just heard crickets.
There was nothing else outthere.
So I said, okay, well, if Ihave to figure this out for
myself, how would I do this?
What is the best way to do acell extraction?
And we kind of dissected it.
I battle labbed it with a bunchof my other nerd buddies that

(57:05):
dig this stuff right, and wefigured out okay, well, number
one that has to happen is wehave to prepare right.
Most of cell extractions thatgo wrong happen because they
went in there unprepared.
Nobody knew what was happening,somebody got hurt, so we have
to prepare for it.
The second thing that has tohappen is we need to have an
implementation stage that isworking with a team.

(57:30):
There are no silos.
When we're going into a cell,we all have to work together
because if we don't, somebody'sgoing to do the wrong thing.
It's going to counteractsomebody else.
It's going to be bad.
And then the third thing is wehave to talk about how to use
force appropriately and documentit after the fact, because I'll
tell you, reading hundreds ofcorrections officers reports,

(57:52):
there's no doubt in my mind.
Like our guys aren't maliciousby nature, but they don't know
how to tell the average publicwhat they did and why they did
it.
You know, they just don't know.
So our cell extractioninstructor school is a three-day
school that we developed withthose principals in line.
It talks about all of thosethings.
How do we prepare for a planneduse of force?

(58:13):
Do we really have to do aplanned use of force?
If we can, maybe we deescalateit.
So to your point, when I firststarted I thought fighting was
cool.
After doing it for a littlewhile, not so much.
It hurts, it hurts a lot everyday, right, um?
And so how do we avoid that?
By de-escalation?
Uh, you know, using our tools.

(58:34):
Um, as far as hey, look,there's a door here there's no
danger.
Yet maybe I don't open the doorright, like those different
concepts.
But then, if we have to go in,how are some very basic team
tactics be applied in aneffective way.
So that's our cell extractioninstructor course, and every one

(58:56):
of our courses truly isdesigned based off of the
concept of how do we do thisbetter?
What is missing Is this aroundsomewhere else.
If they're doing it better, Iwill tell everybody, because,
look, we're a company that'shoping to make money off of what
we're doing, for sure, but ourmain goal is to improve our
corrections officers, and so ifthere's another agency out there

(59:18):
that's doing good work, I willtoss them all the sunshine in
the world.
The truth is is we just lookedaround and couldn't find
anything, so we figured it out,and what we figured out has
taken us all around the world.
That's what I heard.
Yeah, yeah, you know, our ourfirst trip out outside of
America, we took our cellextraction instructor course and

(59:41):
our transport course.
That's another one of our bigthree that is going all over the
place to, um, the United ArabEmirates, and we went over there
and they're like, look, um, weneed, we need this information,
because it's not just America,by the way.
Most of the funding is going topatrol cops all over the world,
and when it comes to the jailguys, we're like we'll figure it

(01:00:05):
out right and so, um, they hadus come over there.
It was amazing experience, butthe stuff that we were showing
them was like showing them firefor the first time.
They it was.
They felt so invested in ourtactics, worked there too.
Uh, turns out, a body is a bodyis a body.
So we know how to, you know,work, work that problem.
And then, um, more recently, wewent to australia, um, focusing

(01:00:31):
on safer strength stuff, butwas had an opportunity to train
with some cert teams over there,showing them some of our
tactics, and they ate that uptoo.
So, um, it's tested, uh, it'sit trusted, and these tools and
concepts are very simple tolearn.
I mean, that's really the thingthat we people go to our

(01:00:53):
classes like, cool, we'relooking for something flashy.
We don't have that.
We have effective, we do thatreal well, but if you're looking
for backflips and stuff, itain't going to work.

Speaker 1 (01:01:04):
Yeah, and you're absolutely right like backflips
and stuff that ain't going towork.
So, yeah, I and you'reabsolutely right.
I find it amazing.
I think we're up to 131countries that have tuned into
the podcast.
Somewhere there's somebodysitting and watching an inmate
in a jail and yeah, I've trainedguys from overseas too, and
they do it.
We do a lot of things Well.

(01:01:24):
I know a lot of people thinkthat corrections in america
doesn't do things well, but weactually do.
Uh, we set the standard for alot of places and they love
getting our training.
So I love seeing you getting togo over there.
I just saw on linkedin thatyou'd been over there, so what a
trip yeah, yeah it was.

Speaker 2 (01:01:42):
It was awesome Such a good group of people there.
But really, what I found is, byand large, our corrections guys
, because of the dangeroussituations that they're in and
because of I don't want to saylack of recognition, but I will
say that they're kind ofunderserved.
There's a humility that's builtinto these guys and they're so

(01:02:05):
grateful, they're so generousand that's why I really think
that we need to invest more intoour people doing that hard work
.

Speaker 1 (01:02:17):
So what's coming up next?
You got any big plans?

Speaker 2 (01:02:20):
Yeah, you know we're doing a couple of things.
One of the things that we'redoing is we're working with
agencies specifically to hostour courses around the country.
We have several lined up.
Our next one is in DouglasCounty, nevada.
They're us out.
Man, if you don't like us, coolI get it, but my guarantee is

(01:02:46):
you're going to come to ourclass and you're going to be
like this is amazing stuff.
So we'll be there in June andwe still got spots open for that
.
We're also doing a cert teamschool in August, september.
Now I'm going to have toremember we're going to do some
stuff here in Washington and oneof the things I kind of glanced

(01:03:09):
over is we have our DT.
Instructor program is somethingthat we've had for years.
State of Tennessee adopted itas their program did a lot of
work with them.
Same here in Washington We'vebeen the DT instructor program
for a lot of specificcorrections agencies.
Our state still has our program, but we've been adopted for our

(01:03:33):
DT.
What's the R?
Oh, I'm sorry, our, I shouldsay the.

Speaker 1 (01:03:37):
Washington state still has our DT program.

Speaker 2 (01:03:39):
Yeah, but the one that I kind of grew up in.
But we're kind of identified assomething that supplements that
, you know.
So we have that that's going tobe in August in in Kent, right
by the airport.
So if you want to fly in andcheck it out, we won't stop you,
we'd love to have you, sothat'll be fun.

(01:03:59):
And then we're in Indiana inSeptember doing a cert course.
We're in Illinois in Septemberdoing a cert course.
We're in Illinois in Octoberdoing a cert course, we're in
Iowa doing our cell extractioncourse in November and then a
transport course in December.
Our website is always gettingupdated.
We're doing stuff all over theplace.

(01:04:20):
But just to kind of piggyback ofone thing that you talked about
earlier, if you're an agencythat does not have an academy
and there's plenty of them outthere they're like here's the
keys you know, academy umbrought to you.

(01:04:47):
Light us up, because we havethe arc core academy.
That is one of our productsthat we've worked with a couple
agencies on to help supplementyour FTO training and help
supplement that stuff.
Um, because we we know that weneed to get our officers out on
a good foot, so that that's ourgoal with that Um.
But you know to your point wehave a lot of different classes
out there.
If you have a need, either wedo it or we know somebody that

(01:05:09):
does.
So feel free to light us up atarctacnet, and you can get me at
tim at arctacnet.
We'd love to come train withyou guys.
And then the last thing I'llsay is that we do in-service
training in very specific states.
So in Indiana, tennessee,washington, idaho, oregon.

(01:05:29):
If you're a small agency thatdoesn't have your own instructor
and you want some of thedisciplines that we have, we
will come to you.
We have boots on the ground,instructors there that are
training our systems, that workwith us in conjunction with us.
We'll come to you and we'lltake over your in-service
training.
So happy to support that way aswell.

Speaker 1 (01:05:47):
Yeah, and Tim gave you the links there.
But if you'll go to the shownotes, of course I'll have
everything in there for yourcontact information and our
tactical and safe restraintsAwesome, I'll even make sure you
give me Ian's company and we'llthrow that in there too.
You got it, man.
You got it Well, I appreciateit.

(01:06:09):
It's nice to meet you face toface.
I know we've emailed andLinkedIn quite a bit, but it's
very nice to meet you and I'vebeen dying to hear your story.

Speaker 2 (01:06:19):
So awesome man.
Thank you so much for having me.
It's been so good.
I love what you're doing here.
It's an important message.
Our corrections officers thatare doing the hard work that are
there on their eighth overtimeday and they're gassed out.
They need to know that they'rerespected and they're valued and
they're worthy, and this is oneavenue that you're working

(01:06:42):
really hard to make sure thatthey know that and I just thank
you for what you do.
Well, you're part of that tomake sure that they know that,
and I just I thank you for whatyou do.

Speaker 1 (01:06:46):
Well, and you're part of that community that I want
to show off, you know, becausethere's so many people out there
doing such good stuff incorrections, but we're all
scattered and nobody hears aboutit.
So, uh, I love bringing guyslike you on here and, uh, I know
there's people going hey, Ineed that at my agency.
So go to the show notes andcheck out Tim and Arc Tactical.

(01:07:09):
I appreciate what you do.
I've heard good, good thingsfrom your classes and I'm
excited to see what you got inthe future.

Speaker 2 (01:07:17):
Awesome man.
Thank you so much.
We should do it again sometime.
I appreciate it.

Speaker 1 (01:07:20):
Absolutely have a great day Take care.
So don't click stop or don'tclick leave.
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