106: Jujitsu, Justice, and Leadership - Interview w/Bryan Antonelli - The Prison Officer Podcast

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello and welcome back to the Prison Officer
Podcast.
Before we get to our topictoday, I just want to take a
minute to thank one of oursponsors.
Innovation has always been thekey to success of Pepperball,
and the Pepperball Blast is justone more way to deliver a
payload that will distract,disorient or incapacitate an
inmate.
This lightweight, refillabledelivery system is perfect for

(00:22):
carrying in a holster in yourpocket or just holding in your
hand as part of a cell entryteam or a cert team.
Each reloadable blast cartridgecontains up to three
projectiles worth of PAVA powder.
When the quick flip safety isturned and depressed, the PAVA
powder is pushed out of the tubeby a 1.8 gram nitrogen
cartridge.

(00:42):
This will quickly cover theinmate and saturate the cell.
Since there's no actualprojectiles deployed upon firing
, this is a truly non-lethalproduct with no impact.
To learn more about Pepperball,go to wwwpepperballcom or click
on the show notes today formore information.
Pepperball is the safer optionfirst.

(01:03):
Hey, welcome back to the PrisonOfficer Podcast.
This is Mike Cantrell.
Today I've got Brian Antonelli.
I've known him for a long timewith the Bureau of Prisons.
I'm really excited to have himon the podcast.
You know, brian's a nationallyrecognized correctional leader
and an Air Force veteran withover 32 years of distinguished

(01:23):
service in both federal andstate law enforcement.
To some he is known as thefixer or the cleanup guy, and
I'm sure we'll talk somethingabout that.
He built his reputation byrestoring order, structure and
leadership to some of the mostchallenging correctional
institutions in the country.
He began his career with theFederal Bureau of Prisons as a
correctional officer at FCI FortDix, and we'll, of course, go

(01:45):
through and get to hear abouthis career.
He later in his career wasselected as chief of the
Bureau's Office of EmergencyPreparedness.
As a matter of fact, he wasthere just before I went to
Washington DC, so we overlappedon a lot of stuff there.
He was involved in, of course,el Chapo's security protocols

(02:05):
after his capture in Mexico, andthe Willisee private prison
riot happened during that timewhile he was up there.
He was subsequently appointedto warden and complex warden and
would later be the seniordeputy regional director and
acting regional Director of theNortheast Region.
He now serves with the SouthCarolina Department of

(02:31):
Corrections as Assistant DeputyDirector of Prisons, where he
continues to lead statewidecorrectional reform, leadership
development and operationalrestructuring.
He's also a black belt inGracie Jiu-Jitsu.
He's a Master Mason, an AirForce veteran and the author of
a couple of books, one of whichwe're going to discuss both but
one I have read, so we're goingto discuss that today, but
welcome to the podcast, brian.

Speaker 2 (02:53):
Hey, thanks, brother.
Great to be here, man.
It's been a long time coming.
We've been chatting for a whileand my schedule's been crazy,
your schedule's been crazy, sothank you.

Speaker 1 (03:02):
Absolutely.
I'm just happy to get you here.
I know you've a wealth ofinformation.
We have a lot of stuff to talkabout, but I kind of start my
interviews the same way.
I always like to hear you knowwhere you grew up and how you
got into corrections.
Did you do it accidentally orwas it something you thought
about?

Speaker 2 (03:21):
Oh yeah, totally accidentally.
To be honest with you, you know, I grew up in a small little
town called Nanuet, new York.
Avid athlete, couldn't wait to,you know, spread my wings and
get out of there.
So I joined the Air Force rightafter high school.
I did four years.
It was a great time I wassecurity forces.
But to show how I wasn'tintending on going into

(03:42):
corrections, I'll remember myrecruiter's name to this day,
john Vaccaro.
I went in to see him.
I said you know, I'd like to bean airborne tactical computer
system specialist.
So he looked up at his littleDOS computer and said yeah, I've
got a report date of about twoyears.
I said okay, I was thinkingmore, like two weeks.

(04:02):
So I went back to the book andsaid I bought a law enforcement
specialist.
John said you don't want to dothat.
I said no, yeah, I've alwaysbeen interested in law
enforcement.
And he said I'm telling you youdon't want to do that.
He said there's a reason.
The score is a 42 and it's thelowest score.
It's a cook and a cop.
I have the same score.
So, yeah, yeah.

(04:22):
So I said no, I want to do it.
I definitely want to go thatroute.
So you know I did it, um, didfour years, loved it.
Uh, it was a good time.
Uh, six months, six months.
Where were you?
Initial assignment was RAFMildenhall, england.
Uh, wonderful, wonderful, firststation.
Um, you know, we, we got out alot, got to see the country

(04:45):
played rugby over there.
You know it was a real goodtime.
Then, after that, I transferredto McGuire Air Force Base, new
Jersey, which happens to connectNow you're going to see the
connection here it happens toconnect to Fort Dix where the
front prison is.
So you know, several of us,mcguire was kind of a feeder
fish for the Fort Dix prison.

(05:05):
So several staff before me hadgone over.
So I said what the heck, I'llgive it a shot.
You know I was that guy.
Everybody tells you not to doit.
But you know, young and stupid,I had an application in with
the marshals.
So I got into the BOP and Ikept saying I'm not going to be
here long, I'm golden marshals,you know.

(05:25):
So I got into the BOP and Ikept saying I'm not going to be
here long, I'm Golden Marshalls,I'm not sticking around.
I had about a year into it.
I was like you know what?
This is pretty cool.
I think I'm going to stickaround.

Speaker 1 (05:32):
So what kind of stuff were you doing in the security
forces?
Was that actual police work?

Speaker 2 (05:46):
I know I have a brother-in-law that did the same
thing, but he was watching a.
A missile silo, basically, waswhat he did, thank god, yes, it
was law enforcement.
There's two sides.
There's law enforcement andsecurity, and you know how we
pick on each other.
Um, there was some brotherlyfeuds back and forth and we
would call them rivet countersand you know they had all kinds
of slang terms for us and it iswhat it is, but good time yeah,
but you were actually doing long, so you were had a little law
enforcement background by thetime you went into the Bureau.

Speaker 1 (06:09):
Yes sir, yes sir, but did you?
Had you done much around jailsand prisons at that time?

Speaker 2 (06:15):
Zero, never even dropped a prisoner off at one,
to be honest with you, short ofour holding cell.
That was it.

Speaker 1 (06:22):
Right.

Speaker 2 (06:27):
So the first day day, tell me about that.
That's always interesting, yeah, real interesting actually for
me, uh, to be honest with you.
Uh, so I walk into the prisonand there's a kid that went to
my neighboring high school, thatI knew real well, comes running
down the hallway trying to sayhi to me, and then he comes back
like 15 minutes later and sayswell, that was pretty stupid.
He said you know, I'm getting alot of crap over saying hi to
you, so I think we're not goingto talk.

(06:47):
I said that's probably a goodidea.
This is so.
I'll leave his name out.
He's, I think he's out now.
Yeah, but I did.
It was interesting.
Fort Dix was one of those places, you know, not designed to be a
prison.
They not designed to be aprison.

(07:08):
They threw a fence around somearmy barracks, um, you know, 300
and some inmates per unit, 12man cells, no lock up.
Uh, you had, you know, betweenthe two sides you had over 3 000
inmates and not a single lockup bed.
So it was, it was challengingto run, to be honest with you.

Speaker 1 (07:20):
Uh, you had to get pretty creative but and
challenging later on in yourcareer or your next steps.
Did you feel like you maybedidn't get a good introduction
into corrections and had torelearn it next time?

Speaker 2 (07:36):
You know, I hate to say it, I almost think you need
to relearn it at every level.
Yeah that's true, at a low youdon't get the security and the
response side.
Quite honestly, at a low youdon't get the security and the
response side.
Quite honestly, at the Pens youdon't get maybe so much in the
communication side.
Absolutely, it's a lot harderto manage 12-man cells and 360

(07:58):
inmates in a dorm than 128 in acell that you can lock it in.
To be honest with you, yeah, Ithink it was a good lock it in,
to be honest with you.
So you know that was.
I think it was a good startthough, to be honest, it broke
me in slow and, you know, movedon from there.
From there I went over to FTCPhiladelphia.
I had to think back there, justshy of the activation.

(08:21):
I think they had a handful ofinmates when I got there.
Real good experience.
That's kind of when I startedto delve into the SAS world a
little bit, got a little gangexperience which was real neat.
A guy by the name of Bill Jazaractually taught me a lot when I
was over there.
He'd been around for decades atthat point, but real good time

(08:46):
fdc philly, philly, that's ahigh rise right.

Speaker 1 (08:49):
Yes, sir talk to me a little bit about the streets
because there's a lot of peoplelistening that probably have
never been to or around a highrise.
How much different is thatworking in one of those?

Speaker 2 (09:00):
it's crazy.
Yeah know you could work thesame block every day and it'll
be 60% new inmates fresh off thestreets.
Court runs, guys heading out,got sentenced and heading out to
be designated.
You never know what you'regoing to get.
Detox, mental health issues youname it Every single day at

(09:22):
high-rise.
A lot of respect to them, to behonest with you, because you
really don't know what you have.
Yet At the time they getsentenced, you know to a pen or
a medium, you pretty muchfigured out the image, character
and how they're going to act.
But they come off the streetsHalf the times.
They're still recovering frombeing high or still high.
You just don't know.

(09:44):
Yet you know.
So, recovering from being highor still high, you just don't
know.
Yet We've had some big namescome through there too.
What the heck was his name?
The Dallas Cowboy, hanzoSpelman.
He came in through there.
I don't know what his issueswere, but you get some high
publicity cases there too.

Speaker 1 (10:03):
Sure, with all the new inmates coming through, it's
probably a good place to getyour feet wet in SIS.

Speaker 2 (10:11):
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely.
And you know especially up inthat area of the country, even
to this day it still changes allthe different blood sets and
you know who gets along with whoand who doesn't.
And you know it, who gets alongwith who and who doesn't.
And you know you really have tobe a student in the game and
stay after it if you want to berelevant in that world for sure.

Speaker 1 (10:31):
Yeah, I think law enforcement forgets sometimes.
As a matter of fact, I lead alaw enforcement educator and
trainers conference last month.
Gary York did a class on howmuch corrections can help law
enforcement with intel from theinside.

Speaker 2 (10:48):
God, yeah, yes, sir, I think sometimes they forget us
.

Speaker 1 (10:50):
Those inmates talk to us like we're not cops
sometimes.

Speaker 2 (10:54):
Yeah, and they talk on the phone.
Like you know nobody'slistening.
So you know it's a wonderfulintel source the emails, the
phone calls, you name it.
You know obviously they needsubpoenas to get the stuff, but
you know it's a wonderful intelsource the emails, the phone
calls, you name it.
You know obviously they needsubpoenas to get the stuff, but
you know it's available and thatcommunication needs to be there
to those on the streets thatyou know we can work together.

Speaker 1 (11:14):
Yeah.
So what was the biggest thingyou learned while you were in
the shop?
What surprised you?
Oh Lord Tons.

Speaker 2 (11:24):
You know it's.
There's so many things I couldtell you.
I mean, you know, dealing withan attempted escape, you know
somebody had busted out a windowon the top floor.
He was all but out but justcouldn't get his head through
the window frame.
I mean, that's how close he was.
How close he was.
Thankfully Lieutenant was doinghis job, paying attention, and

(11:47):
caught him standing there with apiece of angle iron that he had
broken to bust a window out.
But yeah, that was, that couldhave been a bad day, but he was,
he was caught, which is good.
You know, being in the shop, Ithink that one of the biggest
things is we really do have topay more attention to the gangs

(12:08):
and not enable them.
But we need to understand, youknow, we don't need to start our
own trouble as well If you'vegot two groups.
You know, back then BorderBrothers Barry Ostech is, you
know, hit on sight.
You had to really pay attentionto those tattoos, if not that
unit was going to kick off themoment you put one of them in

(12:29):
there.

Speaker 1 (12:30):
Yeah, yeah, we do count on the shops a lot because
, yeah, one little mistake andyou've got a big fight going on
the yard.

Speaker 2 (12:39):
Yes, sir.

Speaker 1 (12:40):
So where'd you go from there?
What was the?

Speaker 2 (12:42):
next step, back as a lieutenant to Fort Dix.
It was an easy move Slid backover there no real, I will say
at this point, though they didfinally have a lockup, so that
was a huge step in regainingorder there.
Worked for a gentleman by thename of Mike Babcock Real good

(13:02):
captain Taught me a lot, reallytaught me a lot.
Uh, really taught me a lot, tobe honest.
Uh, you know, learned the wholeadministrative side of things
which I didn't know at all.
I mean, I knew how to run aprison, but you know the
paperwork and all that.
That.
That was a whole nother world.
Um, so he got me ready.
Um, from there I lateraled outand opened Hurlong California as

(13:23):
a lieutenant all the way acrosscountry.
That was a big move, to behonest with you, but it was a
great experience.
It was my first real activation.
So from there I transferred toHurlong California.
I got my first real fullactivation in.
I actually activated severalareas of that institution

(13:43):
Emergency preparedness, sis, theadmin shop, you name it
Activated all three of thosewhich are probably your major
components, which gave me agreat foundation.
You know you've got to.
You know, establish yourcontingency plans, establish
your post orders, all of thatand you know, when you build

(14:04):
them from the ground up, youintimately understand all of it,
which was, you know, great forfuture use.

Speaker 1 (14:09):
To be honest, Because that became your wheelhouse
quite a bit.
Yeah, is that where you got theknack for it?

Speaker 2 (14:18):
Yeah, I think the EP side of things really is where
that really clicked on, and theSAS side, to be honest with you,
is really kind of where thingsstarted to click there.
The next move was the big one,though, and this was really
where I started to earn my keep.
Got a phone call from acorrectional services

(14:39):
administrator in theMid-Atlantic Said hey, you want
to be the new SIA at Hazleton?
Oh wow, at that point, yeah atthat.
To be the new SIA at Hazleton?
Oh wow, At that point, yeah, atthat point.
I had no idea where Hazletonwas and never heard of it.
It was brand new.
My answer was where the hell isHazleton?
You know, I had no idea.
So he told me a little bitabout it, and I said sure, I'm
up for a challenge.

(14:59):
Um, so I went there and, oh boy, oh boy, that place was in bad
shape.
It was in dire need of a.
Oh yes, sir.
They brought in myself, lennyOdo, john Krogan and Joe Driver,
all within a month or so ofeach other, so a complete regime

(15:20):
change, and we really did getsome solid control.
We had some great, greatlieutenants, great staff.
Quite frankly, the staff werejust begging for leadership.
Uh, and I'm not talking badabout anybody but, um, you know
they they wanted it.
Um, you know they wanted to getthe place back under control,
so it wasn't even hard to gettheir buy-in.
To be honest with you, um, sothat was uh many, many, many

(15:44):
long days.
Uh, you, that's also when I hadmy twin daughters that were
born out at born right aboutthat time.
So, um, you know you're working12, 14, 16 hours a day.
You know, six, seven days aweek, uh, plus two brand new
kids.
So that was an interesting timeto be honest with you.

Speaker 1 (16:03):
Yeah, you know, the inmates at that place were
looking for leadership too.
Sometimes people forget, youknow they want to live in a safe
place most of them.
Now we've always got thatsection over there that doesn't
but a lot of them.
They're looking for somebody tocome in and keep things running
good.

Speaker 2 (16:23):
Yeah, definitely, they were definitely looking
forward to it.
You know there were severalhomicides right before we got
there, even one right as we gotthere, to be honest with you,
you know, and you know welearned a lot too while we were
there and I can tell you onelesson I learned is sometimes
you can't keep pushing right.

(16:45):
We were doing the right thing.
We got things under control.
Might have been going a littlefast, to be honest with you.
So what we ended up doing washaving a pretty large-scale work
and food strike at one pointduring our take back of the
institution.
Not to say we did anythingwrong, but we probably did go a

(17:06):
little bit fast, to be honestwith you.

Speaker 1 (17:09):
Push back from the inmates?
Yes, yeah.

Speaker 2 (17:13):
I mean, we were definitely doing the right thing
, you know 100%, but maybe thespeed was a little fast.
You know, if we would haveslowed it down and spread it out
a little more, we probablywould not have had that issue.

Speaker 1 (17:26):
Okay, well, I mean, that's what experience gives us,
you know, yeah.
So we can make better decisionsnext time.

Speaker 2 (17:34):
Yes, sir, what else?
So to experience my firsthomicide, first and second
homicide there and really, youknow, to show the whole prison
subculture without names orsituations or anything.
The first homicide was over a$35 debt.
An inmate at another yard itwas just the principal in the

(17:58):
respect had checked in and notgiven any names up, owing
another inmate $35.
Well, because he didn'tcooperate and give any names up,
owing another inmate $35.
Yeah, well, because he didn'tcooperate and give any names up.
They ended up at Hazletontogether and he killed him over
$35.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (18:14):
That's the part they don't show in the movies and the
TV shows.
Yeah, yeah, yes sir.

Speaker 2 (18:19):
Yes sir, but that was a very challenging yard, very
DC inmate, heavy, strong MexicanMafia and Serrano presence, you
know, a couple hundred betweenEmi Serrano's New Mexico
Syndicate.
They were all running together,sprinkled and some Paisa here

(18:41):
and there that were running inwith the Serrano's.
So that was a heavy yard, youknow, and you wonder why there
was so much here and there thatwere running in with the
Serenios.
So that was a heavy yard, youknow, and you wonder why there
was so much violence and therewas 300 to 400 DCs alone.
So, and those are notoriouslyviolent inmates, well, yeah,
absolutely.

Speaker 1 (18:57):
Yes, sir, so where was the next?

Speaker 2 (19:00):
From there.
It was a man, what a downshiftthis was.
My hardest shift of my wholecareer was going from Hazleton
to captain at Safford Arizona.
Wow, went from a million milesan hour to the slowest yard you
could ever ask for.
To be honest with you,basically I can't put the fence

(19:22):
around it.
You know it was.
You know it's low securitytechnically, but nothing ever
happens there.
Very well run yard, great again.
A great bunch of staff.
I was very lucky to work withsome of the best staff in the
world.
Man, you know I'll leave hisname out just because I don't
want the union getting mad athim.
But so the union president atthe time comes to see me, says

(19:43):
you know I'll leave his name outjust because I don't want the
union getting mad at him.
But so the union president atthe time comes to see me.
He says you know, you don'tknow me, I don't know you.
He said we're not here to fileany stupid stuff.
You know you can continue doingroll calls.
Because I was getting ready tokill the roll calls because we
had already lost that portablesettlement.
He said you know, here you cancontinue doing roll calls and

(20:05):
you will never see us file onthat.
He said we love the information, we appreciate our jobs, we
want our jobs, you know, and hekept his word.
They've never filed on thatever.

Speaker 1 (20:18):
That was such a loss for the Bureau as a whole, oh
yeah, yeah, that was yeah,definitely.

Speaker 2 (20:24):
I mean it was our number one source of information
uniform inspection, making surepeople are fit for duty,
nobody's coming in intoxicated,inebriated, whatever, and you
lose all that, but it was greatto look forward to it.

Speaker 1 (20:44):
I was, of course.
I was always one of thosepeople who showed up early
anyway.
Yes sir, yeah, I was sittingthere in the chair ready to hear
what was going on and preparemyself.
Yes sir, we didn't get to dothat much afterwards.

Speaker 2 (20:55):
No, and you also didn't make the connections.
To be honest with you.
You lost a lot of personalconnections, the whole I call it
the.
You know the Bureau, family,the brotherhood, sisterhood.
You know people actually madeplans at, at, at roll call, you
know, go out after work or youknow go play on the softball
team or whatever the case may be.
And when that died, a lot ofthat went with it.

(21:18):
Yeah, it's too bad.
Yeah, sir.

Speaker 1 (21:21):
Yeah, where to?

Speaker 2 (21:24):
next, uh, who, um, then was back up, back up to the
big leagues, uh, from there,captain, at USP McCreary, um,
and that's right, when it hadbecome a penitentiary it opened
as a medium and then I, Igrabbed it and it was had just
become a pen.
So, um, that was interestingfor me.
That was my first texas yard,uh, where we had texas syndicate

(21:52):
, uh, you know, uh, you know,excuse me, texas hemi, uh,
mexican me, um, so that was a awhole new world, norteños and
western familia, uh, the wholeopposite side of of what I'd
ever been used to.
So it was good to learn bothsides of the coin, uh, of who
can walk with who and who can't.
That was a very, very good yard.
Again, the staff were great.

(22:13):
In fact, I can't there's noplace that I'll talk about that.
I won't say I had the beststaff I could have ever asked
for, made the job easy.
They really did.
You know, I'm still, to this day, I'm one of those that likes to
get out there.
I, even to this moment, unlessI absolutely have to.

(22:33):
You will not see me in a shirtand tie, right, I'll be in a
polo shirt, five 11s and I'll beshaking down right next to you,
you know, crawling under thebeds, I don't you know, grabbing
hooch or buck or whateveranyone calls it out from the
cells.
That the bands I, I don't, youknow, grab a hooch or buck or

(22:55):
whatever anyone calls it outfrom the cells.
That's what I do.
I'm a ceo by heart, man, um, soyou know, to this day you'll
still see that, but leading fromthe front, oh, yeah, yeah, no
doubt.
And um mccurry?
Uh, in fact there's.
There's one example I'll givethere.
Um, I was in a suit and tie forone occasion.
I quite frankly can't rememberthe occasion, but I went out to
sword training and the leaderwas nowhere to be found.
And they were running theobstacle course.

(23:16):
So I took off my blazer, mysuit jacket and I ran the
obstacle course with the team indress shoes and a tie.
Now I will freely admit Iskipped the what's?
The sideways rope, the MaryJane, skipped the Mary Jane.
But there's some good picturesof me somewhere going up the

(23:37):
tough one in a suit and a tieexcuse me, a shirt and a tie,
with dress shoes on.
So that was pretty comical, butI didn't hear the end of that
for a while.

Speaker 1 (23:46):
Yeah, that's great that you went out there.
You know, I had a discussion ina class a couple of weeks ago
and we were talking about howimportant it is for leadership
to go out and see the teamsbecause someday you're you're
going to have to make decisionsbased on what they can truly do,
Not what somebody's told youthey can do, and from an
emergency preparednessstandpoint, I know you

(24:08):
understand that how importantthat is.

Speaker 2 (24:11):
And when you flip that coin over, they have to
trust your decisions.
That's true.
You know that they have to havefull faith and full buy-in that
you're leading them in theright direction.
And if you're not out there, atleast kicking some dirt with
them.
You're not going to have that,you're just simply not going to
be there.
Yeah, there, at least kickingsome dirt with them.

Speaker 1 (24:28):
You're not going to have that.
Yeah, you're just simply notgoing to be there.
Yeah, absolutely so.
Were you getting the idea theykept sending you to these places
that needed?
Was this the beginning of yougoing?

Speaker 2 (24:35):
hmm, they keep sending me places that need a
little fix it uh, yeah, I mean,maybe I really, to this day,
that I've never referred tomyself as that.
To be honest with you, thatcame from several other bureau
staff, you know.
I just think, you know I'msecurity-minded, I stick to the

(24:56):
basics, I don't do anythingextravagant, and that's how you
fix prison, right?
No, you can't have, and don'tget me wrong by this.
I agree with programming, right, but you can't have.
And don't get me wrong by this.
I agree with programming, right, but you can't have any of that
programming without discipline,order and control in a prison.
It's completely useless withoutthat.

(25:18):
So I've always stuck to that.
You know, I've had peoplearound me that were good and
experts in the programming.
I'll give you the calm and theorder so you can do it.
You know, and that's kind ofthe way I've always liked to
approach it.

Speaker 1 (25:34):
But I think the inmates appreciate that too, the
ones that want it.

Speaker 2 (25:38):
The ones that actually want to go home love it
.
You know, if you're looking tofurther your criminal career and
be a better drug dealer, thenyou're not going to like me.
Right, plain and simple, youknow.
But there were several lows butyou know we dealt with that.
It's all good.
And you know McCreary was alsochallenging for its remote

(26:00):
location.
That was really out there.
You know Dry County had todrive an hour and a half to
lexington if you wanted a beer.
That, yeah, that was.
That was super interesting.
Not that we're huge drinkers oranything, but you know I mean,
listen, if you want a beer withdinner, it's not an option and

(26:21):
that's when you miss it, youknow so I don't think I knew
that about McCreary.
Oh yeah, yeah, it may be.
I think they changed the termnow.
I think they call it a moistcounty now, so I think certain
restaurants are allowed to sellit.
They've progressed a little bit, but it's hilarious.
Yeah, yes, sir, but afterMcCreary was another activation.

(26:47):
I learned a ton up there.
I activated berlin, newhampshire, as an associate
warden.
Okay, um, and you, you'd beamazed that you know.
Yes, it was freezing, yes, itsnows a ton, but man, was it
outdoors?
Paradise up there.

Speaker 1 (27:03):
Um, some of the two years ago up there first time I
got got to see it.
It's gorgeous, nicest peopleyou'd ever meet.

Speaker 2 (27:12):
Oh yeah, the locals up there would give you the
shirt off their back.
As a matter of fact, I wastalking to the old sheriff and
chief of police.
He's been both Last week.
We still keep in touch.
He's actually considering acareer in corrections now, so

(27:32):
I'm definitely hoping he getswhat he's looking for.
So I can't be specific there,but he's definitely heading in
the right direction.
But up there it was wonderful.
Again learned a lot activatingat the executive staff level.
Activating at the executivestaff level.
I had a great warden.
Deb Schultz was our activatingwarden up there.

(27:53):
She was amazing to work for TomWarlick I don't know if you
remember him.
He was my counterpart.
We had a real good time upthere.
The inmates were fine.
They didn't want to be there.
Just to be honest with you, wehad a hard time staffing the
place just because of how remoteit was.

(28:13):
You know, no matter what, nomatter what incentives you threw
, just the applicant pool justwasn't there, just because of
how far north it was.

Speaker 1 (28:25):
But where else could you see a moose on the perimeter
road?

Speaker 2 (28:29):
we had a moose in the perimeter fence.
Oh really, before the fence wasclosed, oh yeah, oh yeah.
There on property the camperswould not go out to get
contraband because of the bear.
Right, they were scared todeath to go out in the woods at
night.
Um, oh, it was, uh, but.
But I will tell you it's minus30.
I'll give you an example.
A year before I left we had abarbecue planned for Memorial

(28:54):
Day.
So, mind you, late May we hadto cancel it Because of three
inches of snow Still, but it wasgreat.
Atv riding.
We got one of those Sidebyby-sides up there.
The wife and kids and I wouldall go out on rides on the
weekends.
Wonderful trail system, youknow, great outdoors area, so it

(29:18):
was good.
It was definitely a real goodtime up there.

Speaker 1 (29:23):
How many years did you stay up there?

Speaker 2 (29:25):
Was it three, two and a half, three, something like
that?
It wasn't too long, yeah.
But from there, that's when Iwent down to DC as the chief of
emergency preparedness.
Big job, very big job.
And, to be honest, for me itwas really personally tough

(29:45):
because, I will will admit,while I got up in New Hampshire
I got fat and lazy.
Um, I was in the worst shape ofmy life.
Uh, I mean, I let it go, Istopped working out.
You know it was.
It was not me, yeah, I'll behonest with you.
So.
So then you show back up in DCand you've got all these sort
teams, you know, and DCT teamsthat you're providing, you know,

(30:08):
trying to make trainingrecommendations to, and you're
the out of shape guy.
So that was, for me, that waspersonally challenging.
As soon as I left there, Ikicked myself in the butt and
got my tail back in shape,because you know, that was again
.
You know, I stress this in thebook you have to lead yourself
first.
Again, I stress this in thebook you have to lead yourself

(30:30):
first.
If you're not practicing whatyou preach, I mean, it's useless
.
And sometimes others can tellyou, hey, you're getting a
little big there, man, but untilyou decide yourself that, hey,
what are you doing, buddy, getback in the gym, get disciplined
, hit the reset here.

(30:52):
It definitely takes somediscipline and dedication, but I
loved it though.
Dc was a great assignment.
Worked for a bunch of goodpeople up there, several regimes
.
I was there for a while.
Got to go on securityassessments, like you mentioned,

(31:14):
with Chapo Security assessmentwith the Saipan prisons.
Got to go down there and checkout Guam and Saipan.
That was pretty neat.
Yeah, how different is that?
Saipan looks just like ours, tobe honest, but Guam is very
different, Um, very, verydifferent.
Um, not saying anything bad,just just different.

(31:36):
Oh, but no, saipan, you, youcould, you could almost
interchange um, the.
The way they run and the way werun is very, very similar.

Speaker 1 (31:45):
Yes sir, yes sir.

Speaker 2 (31:47):
That.
That choppo detail was neat.
We we flew in it was myself andone of the facilities
leadership down there, I'llleave his name out and they they
actually flew us into Altaplanowhere he was on a helicopter,
on a Black Hawk, and that wassuper neat, just to see where he

(32:10):
was.
You know, without saying toomuch, you know they made a lot
of structural changes based onwhat had happened when he got
out.
You know they took a lot ofcorrective action and listened
to our facility staff's adviceon rebuilding it.
But they also took some strongadvice on keeping them in

(32:31):
custody and who should watchthem and even where to move them
, you know, in their own country.
So it was good that they soughtsome advice that was good to go
there.

Speaker 1 (32:44):
Yeah, the resources he had access to you can't
imagine.
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (32:50):
Absolutely limitless, basically his own army if he
wanted.
Yeah.
So we came to the agreement.
We put them without sayingwhere we put them up in the New
York area, you know andobviously everything worked out
because he's tucked away rightnow he's fleeing quietly, so

(33:10):
when you, whenever you don'thear about it on the news, that
that's a good thing for us,right?
You know, we, uh, we don't wantto be the headline, for damn
sure.

Speaker 1 (33:19):
Okay.
So, um, did you get to doanything for the teams?
I mean, that was one of the.
I got interrupted by a covidwhile I was up there and I went.
I went up there with plans of,you know, helping dct and sort
and everything.
What did you get to do whileyou were up there?

Speaker 2 (33:37):
so we restructured and and if you remember the
complex that was kind of gettingput together at tucson for the
sort training was kind of likethe hub that was started by the
teams.
It was actually started beforeme, but we picked up on that and
built on it.
We kept that going while, I wasthere.
It's beautiful Revamped themulti-weapons course.

(34:00):
You know that was and we madeit realistic.
Some of it was in the past.
You know those static drillsare just turn know, turn shoot,
turn shoot, turn shoot it was.
You could train a smart monkeyto do that.
But you know we worked onshooting and moving, staying on
target, obviously not laseringanybody, safety issues.

(34:20):
But the big one was shootingand moving forward and back.
Shooting and moving forward andback.
You know, like after, let's sayafter you do a delivering
exchange for either hostage orfood or whatever you're dropping
off, you know you're movingbackwards and you've got to
still have eyes on target whileyou're doing that.
And that was a big focus of youknow maintaining integrity and

(34:42):
safety of the teams at all times, not just you know one
direction Right.

Speaker 1 (34:47):
When I really got into breaching.
That was when it brought tolight for me Corrections you
can't train a tactical team forcorrections the same way you do
a SWAT team.
You know when they breach andthey go in a house they can go
back out any way they wantCorrections.
You're coming back out the samehole usually.
You got to secure that hole andyou got to get things back to
normal.

(35:07):
Coming back out the same holeusually.
You got to secure that hole andyou got to get things back to
normal.

Speaker 2 (35:11):
So it's a different thought process and, yeah, much
like you're talking about.
Well, and one of the other bigthings I just remembered this
you talked about a SWAT team iswhat brought it up is we got all
the new equipment ordered toinclude the suppressors and
everything else, and that was along time coming, because anyone
that's ever fired a serviceweapon indoors understands that

(35:31):
you're not just going to haveringing ears If you fire that
thing in a in a concretecorridor.
I mean you're, you're, you'regoing to incapacitate everybody
around you.
Nobody's going to hear anythingon the radio, um, you know.
So we got the uh, you know,obviously the hearing protection
, the suppressors, the stuffthat attaches to radios.

(35:53):
It basically made them a fullyfunctional team the D-balls or
PEC-15s on the M4s, some nightvision for your snipers, clip-on
stuff, so you didn't have tocompletely change your optic.
But it basically gave the teamfull 24-hour capabilities,
because prior to that they werenot 24-hour capable.

(36:13):
Right, absolutely, that's cool,yeah, it was a good time.
I really, really enjoyed thatassignment.
To be honest with you, I willtell one story from that time,
and it actually has nothing todo with emergency preparedness.
It's when I went down to Guamand Saipan with myself, the

(36:36):
director I'll leave his name outat the time, several ADs and we
had just toured there inNagatna.
I'm going to butcherred theirNagatna.
I'm going to butcher the nameNagatnya it's a name they use
down there, their correctionalfacility.
And quite frankly, you know Iwasn't very impressed, right?

(36:59):
But of course we can't say that.
So we walk into what's supposedto be a private town hall with
their governor and some localkey leadership and as soon as we
sit down, on cue, the mediacomes out, cameras, everything.
It was a total, complete setup,right?

(37:20):
If you remember one of ourdirectors there was a negative
saturday night live skit abouthim not long before that, about
cell size.
I don't know if you rememberseeing that when they asked him,
they said director, you know,as the leader of the world's
largest correctionalorganization, he just toured our

(37:41):
facility.
What was your opinion of thefacility?
And of course he can't, youknow, he's not going to publicly
, you know, discuss that.
That's going to be a privateconversation and there's a long
pause with no answer.
So then the governor repeatsthe question and there was a

(38:03):
pause again, and I'm going tosay it was five to 10 seconds at
this point, and jumped in.
I said, director, would youmind if I took this question for
you?
Huge risk, right, because Icould have ended my career
politically right there, uh, butit was uncomfortable, the pause
, and I didn't want to let himbecause he couldn't answer that.
You know I could better.
So, uh, I'll leave theattorney's name out, but I never

(38:27):
saw a head snap in my directionso fast in my life, um, but the
director said sure, brian, goahead.
So I said, well, uh, governor,uh, you know, in addition to
coming down here to representcorrectional programs, uh, my
full-time job at the, at thebureau of prisons chief ofness,
part of our jobs there are toconduct assessments of

(38:48):
correctional facilities, whichwe spend at least 40 to 80 hours
reviewing blueprints, plans,procedures, et cetera, and at
least another 40 hours insidethe facility.
He said, sir, we were in yourfacility for about an hour.
You can't ask us to offer anysort of effective, informed
decision on your facility inthat timeframe.

(39:10):
So he took it and let it go theride back.
We jokingly had a big kid carand a little kid car.
I was in the little kid car atthe time and nobody would speak
to me.
So finally, about halfway backto the hotel, I cracked a joke.
I said well, I think in a fewminutes we're going to find
hotel.
I cracked a joke.
I said, well, I think in a fewminutes we're going to find out.
Either I'm okay or my career isover.

Speaker 1 (39:31):
And everybody laughed .

Speaker 2 (39:32):
You know what I mean.
I mean, what can you do at thatpoint?
You know it's it's done, youknow, um.
So anyway, actually he waswaiting for me in the lobby and,
um, he actually all he wantedto do was say thank you.
You know, he thanked me forhelping him out there.
He was not prepared for themedia coming out and none of us
were.
To be honest with you, um, andI've always, to this day, I've

(39:56):
always thought very highly ofthat man for that, because you
know he could have easily saidyou know, this was on statewide
tv down there, so he easilycould have said you know, who
are you to speak for me and youknow, you know, had a big ego
about it.
Um, he was very, veryappreciative, um, and I was, you
know, I've not forgotten thathe was.
He was a great man to work for.

Speaker 1 (40:17):
Yeah, absolutely.
I think I know who you'retalking about and he is a.
He is a a lot from him too.
Yes, sir, um, yes, sir, so I'dlike to.
Before we talk about whereyou're at now, let's talk a
little bit about.
You said you came back fromgetting out of shape.

(40:37):
I know that you're, uh, you'vegotten big into jujitsu again.
I don't think you'd like it,but it's kind of come back in
your life, is that right?

Speaker 2 (40:46):
oh yeah, yes, sir yeah, yes, sir, tell me about
that.
You get to win powerlifting.

Speaker 1 (40:50):
How that affects your career and your mentality, all
of it.

Speaker 2 (40:56):
You know, I think a lot of people fear submissions
and chokeholds and all this.
They're worried aboutlegalities.
I'm going to guarantee thatyou'll find that anyone that's
actually trained will use itless.
They will make better decisionsin all aspects of their jobs.

(41:16):
You know, imagine, you know,I'm in the heavyweight class.
So imagine a 280-pound behemothwho's also a black belt on top
of you trying to choke you out.
If you don't relax and makesolid decisions, you're done.

(41:37):
You're absolutely done.
So I think one of the biggestthings that jiu-jitsu gives you
is the ability to make toughdecisions in the worst possible
scenarios.
You know, I firmly believe thatthere's a discipline, there's a
humility that has to come withit.
You know there's days, you,that has to come with it.

(41:59):
Um, you know there's daysyou're going to be the hammer,
but there's a heck of a lot moredays you're going to be the
nail right, you know when you'retraining anyway.
So, um, you know I'm hooked.
Um, I'll be.
I'll be doing the worldchampionships or the masters,
the old, the deal man, worldchampionships, uh, again this
summer.
Um, didn't fare so well lastyear.

(42:21):
I'm actually trying to drop aweight class, uh, and see if I
can get out of the uh, as I callit, the big boy division.
Um, so we'll see.
Um, there are some monsters outthere, right, right, you know,
last, last year, I lost tofabiano scherner, who I believe
is 13 time world champion, sothat doesn't feel too bad, no,

(42:42):
no, um, I mean no excuses, right, I, I always want to win, right
, but I mean, yeah, I alsothanked him at the end for
sharing the mat with me.
I mean, what do you say to aguy like that?
You know?

Speaker 1 (42:54):
yeah, so I was, uh, but I was going through a book.
Have you ever read, uh, prisonsand beyond by the first
director of the bop?
I have not, actually, sothere's a part in there and I'm
gonna read this because I thinkit's interesting.
I think you'll get a kick outof it too.
So jujitsu was taught in theoriginal correctional officer

(43:18):
training.
Did you know that back in the50s?
Oh sir, yeah.
So here's just a little story.
I think it's pretty cool.
So they had a new recruit, uh,good use was made of the
physical training portion of thecourse.
Later, one of the graduates ofthis course, doing guard duty at
a prison camp, uh, was sentwithout a gun or club into open

(43:38):
country to hunt for twoprisoners who had walked off.
He came upon them suddenly inthe dark and held out his hand
as though he had a revolver, andthey put up their hands.
As he approached, though, theprisoners saw that he was
unarmed and rushed him was theway they wrote it one of them
with a dangerous knife.
The guard guard not onlystarted off the attack of the

(44:01):
prisoners with approved jujitsufashion, he took the knife of
one of them, whirling it to theground, to the side of the road,
captured the man with a lefthammer lock and when the other
prisoner attacked him, he tookpossession with a right hammer
lock and led them back to thecamp.
It is impossible to discover theinherent characteristics of a

(44:22):
man with such courage,dependability and alertness.
But much can be said tostimulate judgment he's talking
about jujitsu.
Much can be said to stimulatejudgment, initiative and
resourcefulness to such measure.
Yes, sir, that was what 70years ago.

Speaker 2 (44:43):
Yeah, and things don't change.
I mean, it is what it is.
I'm going to go back and readthat now for an unsure.

Speaker 1 (44:51):
I'm a huge reader.

Speaker 2 (44:53):
I'm going to read the whole thing.
That's really cool.
I've seen that the FBI and theMarshals have adopted a
jiu-jitsu curriculum and I'mvery hopeful that for the safety
of the staff and, quite frankly, the safety of the inmates,
that the Bureau gets into somesort of jiu-jitsu training.
For anyone listening to this,if your agency doesn't train you

(45:18):
, I fully recommend you go outand train, fully recommend.
And, quite frankly, even thetraining you'll get with your
agency is not going to beanywhere enough to be proficient
.
It'll be a starter or anexposure at best.
But when it becomes musclememory, that's when you're
relaxed and that's when you'reconfident and, quite frankly,
that's when you'll muscle memory.

Speaker 1 (45:36):
That's when you're relaxed and that's when you're
confident and, quite frankly,that's when you'll actually use
less force because you'reconfident in yourself in most
situations yeah, I was talkingto sim fosnot, uh, last episode
and he teaches for our tacticaland him and I got in a
discussion about the way thepublic sees us on these videos

(45:58):
on YouTube and stuff and you seeso many officers that don't
have the ability to control theinmates they're fighting, or
even three or four officers notable to control an inmate.
And when you have those skillswhich I have never taken jujitsu
, but I thought the state ofMissouri did a really good job
of teaching me arm bars andstuff very early yes sir, not
just offensive but some tacticsto control an inmate, and we

(46:21):
look so much better when we canget immediate control, when we
can protect them, not hurt them,and get control of them.

Speaker 2 (46:29):
We're calm, we're not screaming, it is better and it
looks better.

Speaker 1 (46:36):
Yeah, absolutely yes, sir.
So tell me about the otherbetter.
Yeah, absolutely yes, sir, sotell me about the other thing.
Oh, go ahead.

Speaker 2 (46:42):
I was going to say.
The other thing I've recentlygot into is competitive
powerlifting, that's what I wasgoing to ask about.
So, as a matter of fact, I'mdoing a heavy bench day tomorrow
.
I'm trying to break the old manbench record Right now 275,
it's 860 on open power lifting.
Tomorrow I'm hoping to getaround 700.

(47:04):
Uh, brand new shirt, umbreaking in a little bit so
we'll see um still ways off.
But uh, you know, at this pointI'll be top five in the world
if I do that in a in a meet Nice.
Yeah, it's getting there.
I'm one of those people that'snever satisfied.
I've got to push myself and mywife.

(47:26):
She's an amazing partner.
We're up at 4.30 every morning.
We hit the gym together.
She's as dedicated, if not more, than I am.
So it makes eating, working out, everything's easy when your
partner's doing it with you.
You know, and that's the otherthing people don't realize is so

(47:48):
much of being healthy and beingin shape is almost purely diet.
You know, prioritize protein.
Do not listen to what you'vebeen told for the last 30, 40
years.
Protein is the key.
Uh, keep your protein intakehigh.
Keep your sugar intake low.
Fat it's moderate, you're goodto go.

Speaker 1 (48:04):
Yeah.
It's uh, I've always lovedstrength sports.
Uh, so it's.
I love watching your posts onthere and stuff.
I used to compete in Highlandgames.
That's what some of thoseswords are back there.
Yes, sir, yeah, I love strengthsports, throwing defense bowls
yes sir.
Yeah, because it's personal.
In most of those sports it'syou against you.

(48:25):
You, yes, sir.

Speaker 2 (48:28):
Yes, sir, so doing all that when do you have time?
That took forever and, to behonest with you, the second book
is stuff I pulled out of thefirst book that was just either
too long or didn't fit the same.
It wasn't really leadership, itwas more prison management on

(48:50):
how to run the prison.
So I took that all out,reorganized it and the second
book wasn't really a full secondendeavor.
It was stuff I retracted fromthe first book.
To be honest, that took me God.
When did I start that?
At least five years of dabblingback and forth, um 2022 is when

(49:17):
I got the majority of it done.
I um, right before I retired, Iended up having my C five, six
and C six seven replaced with uhmetal discs.
There's metal box inserted inthere.
Now they cut you, move yourthroat over, put metal vertebra
or metal discs in between yourvertebrae, um, which it's much
better than a fusion.
You retain the majority of yourmobility, uh, or at least some

(49:40):
of it anyway, versus a fusion.
You're very stiff.
But that's when I got themajority of the book writing
done.
You know I had a lot of timewhere I couldn't do much, so I
was laid up and just sat my buttin front of the computer and
got after it.

Speaker 1 (49:58):
So well, I had a couple of things in here when
I've you touched on a couple ofthings that I haven't heard
other leaders talk about, so Iwant to, you know, pick your
brain a little bit.
One of them is is tactfullypushing back against poor
decisions, and I think everyonelistening has probably been in
that situation where, uh, youknow there's a poor decision

(50:20):
being made, uh, you may not bein the position to, uh, to stop
it, but how do you tell me alittle bit about that?

Speaker 2 (50:28):
What's your so you have to be careful, right, um,
because if you push too hard, orso there is.
There's also another book Irecommend reading, the Art of
the Indirect Approach by WendellHart.
It's an older book, he's aBritish guy, okay, but if you
were to make a decision that Ididn't agree with and I came

(50:50):
directly at you, you know, mike,what the hell are you thinking?
You know you're instantly goingto be defensive and you're
instantly going to be defensiveVersus.
If I look at it, maybe we talkto some of the teams hey, mike,
I got your idea.
I see it, it's on point.
But the guys have a way thatthey really prefer to do things,

(51:11):
still achieving the same endgoal.
Could you take a look at theops order that they prepared?
Big difference to me comingdirectly at you and say you know
, hey, I don't agree with this.
This is dumb.
You know, whatever, you have torealize a few things.
One you're dealing with anotherhuman's ego, right, which

(51:32):
everybody has an ego, I don'tcare how much we try to check it
.
Every single one of us has anego.
Number two you have to stay inthe game.
If I piss you off enough andyou're my boss you're not going
to hear anything I say in thefuture.
In fact, you may take me offcount and move me somewhere,

(51:53):
right?
So then nobody's going to pushback.
So it's got to be delicate.
Um, I'm not saying go questionyour boss on everything, and
there are some things that,quite frankly, aren't worth the
fight, right.
But if it's something that'sworth the fight, that that's
when I still say approachdelicately, but, you know, get
your point across in a in anon-direct manner.

(52:16):
I call it.
Leading up channel is reallywhat I call it.

Speaker 1 (52:21):
I know that you and I are both fans of Jocko and I
heard him talk about it.
Yes, yeah, he talked about youknow, you get these people who
go.
Well, I'm not going to be partof this.
Well, if you pull yourself outof it, you can't protect the
people below you, you can'tprotect your team.
You have no influence at thatpoint.

Speaker 2 (52:40):
Right.
Then they put a yes person inplace and it's over Right.
So you know it's delicatebalance and you really do have
to pick your battles.
But when it's important to youand or your team, again I still
say I wouldn't approach itdirectly head-on, at least not
right away, you know again,offer an alternative.

(53:01):
Hey boss, would you mind justtaking a look at this?
I'm really trying to build themorale and future leaders of the
team they developed this plan.
It'll achieve the same endresult.
I really believe it'll alsohelp their morale and more often
than not they're at least goingto read it.

Speaker 1 (53:20):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (53:21):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (53:22):
It's one of my weaknesses.
That's another reason why Ichose that one.
I'm not always the best atbeing tactful in some of those
situations I have to make myself, but it's good you know that
right, because I'm the same way.

Speaker 2 (53:42):
Sometimes I want to jump right head on at something,
but we have to be aware of ourown weaknesses as well and,
again, stay in the game.

Speaker 1 (53:46):
Another thing I wanted to ask you about, just
because I talk to a lot ofleaders on here and one of the
subjects that I haven't reallydrilled down on is
decision-making, and you havedecision-making frameworks there
.
So tell me about some of yourthoughts on when you make
decisions.
How do you do that?
What are you looking at?

Speaker 2 (54:08):
So one of the biggest things I use is called an OODA
loop, observe and Jocko, as yousaid, talks about this at length
Observe, orient, decide and act.
And it's almost a constantcycle and when you really get
into it you can almost haveseveral OODA loops inside of

(54:30):
maybe one big OODA loop when youreally start getting deep into
things.
But starting off what thatprocess does, it avoids
decision-making paralysis.
So the third step is you decide, you know you have to make a
damn decision.
You've talked about all this,you've observed, you've

(54:55):
developed, you know at least aconcept.
You're deciding, and the fourthstep is act.
So if it needs to be tweaked,you're going to pick it up on
your next loop.
Or observe, orient the side.
Do I need to tweak it?
Do I not need to tweak it?
Act or maintain status quo,right, right.
So that's one of the biggest andthe easiest methods to teach.
It's been around.
I should know that it was anAir Force pilot, but it was a

(55:16):
pilot from the Boyd, somewherein the 50s, I believe that came
up with it.
Yeah, did you say Boyd Boyd,colonel Boyd?
That might be right.
That might be right.
Yes, sir.

Speaker 1 (55:26):
Yeah, I think people do get stuck.
The OODA loop doesn't just goaround once it's spinning.

Speaker 2 (55:42):
Like a record.
It's going round and round.
Yes, sir, and it's.
You know, it's great to teachyour staff too, because then
they don't get scared to makedecisions.
You know, and while I say thatand I know it's probably touched
on, it's definitely touched onin the book but if your staff
make a mistake because they madea decision where they were
trying to do the right thing,don't kill them.
Oh, yeah, yeah, have that.
Talk with them.
You know, hey, man, you need tofind another way to do this,

(56:03):
because that one didn't work.
Brother, you know they make thesame mistake two or three times
.
Then maybe we have a differentconversation, right?
But the last thing you want isstaff that are scared to make a
decision, or staff that run totheir supervisor a decision, um,
or staff that run to theirsupervisor.
This is going on.
What do I do?
Well, why do I have you?

Speaker 1 (56:23):
you know so um, I talked about that in a keynote I
did a few years back, and theway I picture it is is you've
got one like one of those oldRoman boats, you know, where
everybody's got an oar.
You've got one of those oldRoman boats where everybody's
got an oar, and if you reachdown and slap somebody every
time they make a little mistake,pretty soon you're not going
anywhere because everybody quitsrowing.

(56:44):
That's all they do.
Yes, sir, yes, sir.

Speaker 2 (56:48):
Yeah, you know, and the other thing talking about
the decision-making process, andthis may or may not be where
you're going with this, but Ialso try not to make every damn
decision.
You know, there's a story inthe book and and names are out
on purpose.
When I first showed up atHazleton the second time as

(57:09):
warden, right after the WhiteyBulger murders a murderer, I
should say I was walking aroundand there were two AWs and you
know, and probably the captainand a few other people walking
with me, and one of the AWs wasjust in my ear the whole time.
This is Hazleton.
We don't have time to do allthis.

(57:29):
I'd never worked there beforeand didn't understand how busy
the place was.
I was just ignoring it, didn'tsay a word.
What I left out is the firstday when I was politely asked to
go up there.
I drove up from Williamsburg.
I was actually on vacation inMyrtle Beach sitting on our

(57:54):
fifth wheel.
All of a sudden my truckstarted.
I was going north.
So I ended up there and gotthere at like five o'clock.
I was like, well, screw it, I'mnot going to go.
You know, sit in a bar or sitin a hotel, I might as well, go
to prison.
So I'm walking around and, andyou know one thing, like on
lockdowns, we normally don't doshowers at nights.

(58:15):
At nighttime, you know, there'sless staff.
I walk into one of the housingunits and they're about halfway
done.
They weren't even close.
The staff didn't even know whoI was at that point A bunch of
new kids.
So I jumped in, I startedhelping them pull inmates for
showers.
We got it done.
I think we're down like 8, 30,9 o'clock at night.
Crazy it, crazy.

(58:39):
It wasn't working.
So I mentioned that to you know, the aws and the captain that
next morning I said hey, man,you gotta look at that is
whatever we're doing.
Something, something's notgoing right there, sure?
So on the third day the one awsays to the other one he says
hey, get all the execs togetherin the warden's conference room
at two o'clock and we'll developa new shower plant.
I turned around I said stop,you've been telling me for three

(59:01):
days how busy we are and how wedon't have time to walk around
and get the pulse of the placeand see what's going on.
I'll say the one guy's name.
I said Ryan, two seniorofficers.
Grab a union steward, grab alieutenant, put them in a room
together, ask them to write youa shower plan and, if it makes

(59:23):
half a bit of sense, enact it.
So he looks at me, he laughsand he goes and does it, because
he had worked for me before sohe knows how I like to operate.
So they do it.
We take an hour the nextmorning to brief the plan, you
know, and a staff recall, youknow so you lose an hour of the
day there.
They were done with showers byabout 1.30, 2 o'clock, not

(59:51):
because their plan was sevenhours more efficient, because it
was their plan.
They were bought in and theywanted to look good.
Sure, and that's the goal, man,you want their buy-in.
They even skipped eating lunchto finish the showers earlier
and then ate afterwards.
Yeah, uh, just so you knowtheir plan would look that much

(01:00:11):
better.
And you know, yeah, there aretimes when we have to snipe
decisions.
I'm a big leadership capitalbeliever, so every time we snipe
one of those decisions, we'reburning capital.
Anytime we got our staffinvolved and we get them

(01:00:36):
involved in the planning process, we're building capital.
You know, so it's.
You get so much more.
You know another example thereuh, I was looking to find a way
to copy.
The mail bureau had never donethat before.
Um, you know, full scalecopying, especially at a large
complex.
Sure, we were gettingslaughtered with paper drugs
coming in.
At that point drones weren't anissue yet, probably very close

(01:00:57):
to being an issue, but theyweren't yet Right, at least that
we knew of anyway.
So you know, we had some ideas,but we pulled all the mariner
room staff in, a couple of theunion folks, lieutenants, put
them in a room, you know, tocopy Jocko.
We gave him the commander'sintent and all the senior
leadership left.
So you know, here's yourresources, here's your intent.

(01:01:20):
You know, let us know what yourplan is.
And I figured it would be aweek or two.
To be honest with you, by 3o'clock they called us back in
and said hey, you know, we'vegot a plan, it's going to work.
Not only did they not ask usfor more bodies, they gave us
two bodies back.
Did they not ask us for morebodies?
They gave us two bodies back.

(01:01:40):
So you know, they consolidatedthe mailroom in one location and
it worked like a charm.
There was not one issue with it.
And again, it was their plan.
You know, full disclosure.
I would not have thought of.
What they thought of, you knowthat was solid staff making
solid decisions, and they knowthose institutions better than

(01:02:02):
we do, whether we want to admitit or not.

Speaker 1 (01:02:08):
I think a lot of people, when they get in those
administrative positions and youkind of touched on it earlier
with the analysis paralysis theyget so scared of making a
mistake that they well, colinPowell, he's got a quote out
there that he makes decisionswhen he has between 40 and 70%
of the information.

(01:02:29):
If he makes it with less than40% of the information he
doesn't have enough.
If he waits till he's got 100%,the moment to make the decision
is gone.
You know, and we have a lot ofadministrators that want it,
they want everything, they want100%, and you shouldn't be
making good decisions that way,yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:02:48):
Yeah, yes, sir, and you know.
The other thing you fail to dowhen you make all the decisions
is where and I'm going to saythis, uh, and I'm not shooting
at anybody, but this is what theBureau of Prisons is dealing
with right now you do not gel,develop your next generation of
leadership when you treatyourself like robots and you

(01:03:08):
make every decision from the top.
You know, and that's, that's aleadership vacuum that they are
dealing with right now, Uh, andit's, it's going to take a
minute to fix that.

Speaker 1 (01:03:20):
Yeah, it is, it is.
But yeah, we'll hope that somechanges are going to happen and
things are going to move forwardthere, because I love the
Bureau.

Speaker 2 (01:03:30):
I'm very confident.
I'm very confident in that newdirector.
I know he actually doesn't havethat much correctional
experience, that new director.
I know he actually doesn't havethat much correctional
experience, but listening to himspeak on your podcast talking
about you know you have tounderstand but you don't know
how he leads.
I'm very confident that he'she's going to be a strong leader
for that agency.

Speaker 1 (01:03:48):
So I saw him walking around the mock riot and of
course that's West Virginia's,you know big thing down there.
But he came down and he wasn'tstanding up front and everybody.
He was up there talking toeverybody, asking questions,
seeing what's in there.
He was very inquisitive.
I enjoyed meeting him there,yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:04:08):
Yeah, he seems like a great guy.
I've never met him, but hearinghim speak he sounds like
exactly what's needed.

Speaker 1 (01:04:13):
To be honest, yeah, so what's next for Brian
Antonelli?
I know you got another book.

Speaker 2 (01:04:21):
Let's talk yeah, that's out, seize Clear.

Speaker 1 (01:04:23):
Build Hold Regaining Control of Troubled Prisons.

Speaker 2 (01:04:29):
So Seize Clear, build , hold is how I put it.
For the prisons it's modified alittle bit.
Seize Clear, hold, build themilitary's counterinsurgency
model.
Um, that, that is what that'smodeled after.
And if you think aboutorganized gang activity, drug
sales, gang activity,counterinsurgency, that's

(01:04:51):
exactly what it is.
That's how we deal with it.
That's the model I've used atHazleton, at Coleman, at Reno
McCreary, williamsburg you nameit and it's proved effective
every single time.
Now I didn't have the flashyname for it then, but that's
exactly what we did.

(01:05:13):
What's next for me?
Nothing.
I'm in my career.
I'm happy where I am right nowwith the state.
Um, I'll do this as long as Iwant to stay gamefully employed,
and then I'm done.
Um, you know, I'm just.
I'm just going to enjoy lifewith the family and you know my
kids are staying right here.
They're going to into collegeat University of South Carolina,

(01:05:34):
both of them 20 minutes fromhome.
So we're all Gamecock fans.
But, yeah, no, you know, maybeif I ever get tired of this
which I really enjoy what I doright now if I ever get tired of

(01:05:55):
it, maybe some part-timeconsulting or something on the
side.
But that'll be when we want to.
To be honest with you.
It's just, you know, the Bureauof Corrections has been a
wonderful career.
You know I, I know we take alot of bad press I recommend it
to anybody I really do in theright organization.
Anyway, you know we are, we'reblessed organization Anyway, um,

(01:06:17):
you know we are, uh, we'reblessed to be where we are, to
be honest with you.
So, and and you know you, youtoo, you had a wonderful career.
Brother, you know something tobe proud of for sure.

Speaker 1 (01:06:29):
So, um, it was uh.
I still get to get phone callsand emails from people that I
affected, you know, and that'sthe huge thing.
But I see South Carolina.
You guys are on LinkedIn or onFacebook and you guys are doing
good stuff out there.

Speaker 2 (01:06:47):
Yeah, we have a wonderful director, um,
wonderful man to work for.
Um, super aggressive uh as faras getting us resources, pay
raises for staff technology, youname it.
He's probably the leadernationwide in the push for cell

(01:07:09):
phone interdiction and droneinterdiction.
Amazing man to work for Somegreat staff out here, and this
is one of those.
I won't get too much.
I promised him I wouldn't talkabout South Carolina, but one of
the things I love is we don'thave the age restriction, right,
so we have some staff.

(01:07:29):
You know, our director ofsecurity, for example, has over
50 years of correctionalexperience.
Okay, that is.
I mean, he's a walking enalexperience.
Okay, that that is.
I mean, he's a walkingencyclopedia.
Yeah, you know, um, the thing Ilike is they don't run their
experience out the door.
You know, just for a fictitiousage number that may or may not

(01:07:52):
be accurate, as to whether ornot you can still perform the
job, um, I, you know I couldn'tbe happier.
Um, as to whether or not youcan still perform the job, you
know, I couldn't be happier.
You know, my direct boss iswonderful.
He's got probably 30, 40 yearshimself in.
You know, I've got 32.
My counterpart's 35, 37, Ithink.
So I mean there is a ton ofexperience down here and

(01:08:15):
everybody is great to work with.
So you know the line staff havedealt with a lot, because
before they got their pay raisesit was it was hard to staff
this place, yeah, um, but nowthat they're uh, they're very
competitively paid down here, um, so especially for this area,
yeah, well, I love seeing thatall across the country.

Speaker 1 (01:08:34):
That's one thing that this has done.
Is it finally bumped up pay fora lot of people 20, 30, 40% in
some places.
So, yeah, corrections needed it.
They deserved it.
I'm glad to see that they'regetting it.

Speaker 2 (01:08:47):
Yes, sir.

Speaker 1 (01:08:49):
Well, thank you, Brian, for coming on here
tonight.
I'll get in the show notes.
I'll have Brian's books.
I'm actually going to put thatone book I wrote it down that
you mentioned.

Speaker 2 (01:09:01):
The art of the indirect approach.

Speaker 1 (01:09:03):
Yeah, yeah, I'll.
I'll put a link in there forthat too, for anybody that wants
to look it up.
I know you probably don't wantto get bugged at work.
Do you have a contact in thebook or an email?
I?

Speaker 2 (01:09:14):
don't Okay.
I am on LinkedIn, brianEttenoly, okay, so feel free to
reach out there.
I do respond to pretty muchevery message I get on there.

Speaker 1 (01:09:26):
I'll put that link on the show notes so they can, if
somebody wants to reach out andsay, hey, yes, sir.

Speaker 2 (01:09:30):
Yes, sir, thank you so much.

Speaker 1 (01:09:31):
Listen, I'm honored you had me on, brother, you know
great talk to you and, you know, always here, uh, if you ever
need anything in the future, bro, same here.
I appreciate you coming on thepodcast.
It's uh.
I haven't got to talk to you ina long time, so I enjoyed this.
Yes, sir, me too.
Have a good night you too, hey.
Before we go, I'd like to takea minute to thank one of our

(01:09:54):
sponsors.
Omni real-time locating systemis a company I've been working
closely with for years.
I'm proud to be a part of thisinnovative team that's developed
the best real-time locatingsystem on the market today for
your jail or prison.
Omni's PREA-compliant real-timemonitoring technology is the
very best way to track andrecord your inmates' locations,

(01:10:16):
their movements, theirinteractions, throughout every
square inch of your correctionalfacility.
Imagine getting an alarm, thesecond, an escape happens, or an
alert that lets you know whenan inmate's heart rate drops
below a set level.
To learn more about Omni, go towwwomnirtS dot com that's
OmniRTLScom or you can click ontoday's show notes to get in the

(01:10:40):
information guide.
Omni Real-Time Locating Systemis a powerful tool specifically
designed for the moderncorrectional professional.
If you haven't done so, pleasetake a moment to like my podcast
or, better yet, hit thesubscribe button so that you'll
be notified when the nextepisode comes out.
Thanks for listening and let'sbe safe out there.

All Episodes

106: Jujitsu, Justice, and Leadership - Interview w/Bryan Antonelli

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Stuff You Should Know

Dateline NBC

Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}106: Jujitsu, Justice, and Leadership - Interview w/Bryan Antonelli