107: Inside the American Jail System: Leadership & Innovation - Interview w/Shaun Klucznik - The Prison Officer Podcast

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
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(01:03):
Well, hello and welcome back tothe Prison Officer Podcast.
My name is Mike Cantrell andtoday I've got Major Sean
Klusnick with me.
He currently serves as theJudicial Services Bureau
Commander and Jail Administratorat the Hernando County
Sheriff's Office in Florida.
He's been working in thecriminal justice field since
1997, holds dual certificationin both corrections and law

(01:24):
enforcement.
He's a working in the criminaljustice field since 1997, holds
dual certification in bothcorrections and law enforcement.
He's a graduate of the FBINational Academy, session 283,
american Jail AssociationNational Jail Leadership Command
Academy, class no 10.
Serves as the Commissioner ofthe Florida Corrections
Accreditation Commission.
Is a certified jail managerthrough the AJA Accreditation

(01:45):
Commission.
Is a certified jail managerthrough the AJA.
Major Klusnick holds anAssociate of Science degree in
Criminal Justice from StPetersburg College, a Bachelor
of Arts degree from St LeoUniversity, a Master of Arts in
Philosophy from St John VianneyCollege Seminary maybe you can
correct me on that and aGraduate Certificate in Criminal
Justice education from theUniversity of Virginia.

(02:07):
And most recently he was swornin as the 45th president of the
American Jail Association.
I am super happy to have him onhere Once again.
He's someone that I've beenfollowing and reached out to on
LinkedIn.
I know he's a student ofleadership and I want to talk
about some of that stuff.
And welcome to the PrisonOfficer Podcast, sean.
So, like you, if you'velistened to this podcast before

(02:31):
you know, I like to see howpeople got here and how we got
into corrections and whatformulated our lives.
So where'd you grow up at?

Speaker 2 (02:41):
Sean, there's some propaganda back there, some New
England Patriots propaganda.
So I grew up in Boston,massachusetts, and we actually
believe it or not.
My family owned a restaurant inFoxborough just before the
Patriots got good.
They were really terrible.
We owned a restaurant justsouth of the stadium before they
knocked it down and made it aparking lot and built a new

(03:01):
stadium.
But my dad said, listen, ifwe're going to be poor, we're
going to be warm.
Because we lost our buildingand we moved to Florida when I
was 12 years old and it's been alove affair with the heat since
then, I know I went to highschool down here and, believe it

(03:24):
or not, I was working a job asa kid 18 years old
roughly 18.
Just graduated high school andI saw one of my former coworkers
walk in the store where we usedto work together and she was
wearing a deputy uniform.
And I'm like what happened here?
Karen was a cashier.
Now she's walking in, she's,she looks like a cop.

(03:46):
Let me go see what's going on.
So I walked over and talked toKaren and she was telling me
that at the time the PascoCounty Sheriff's office in
Florida, um, was just open, avery large jail, and uh, they
were staffing it quickly and shehad got hired and sponsored
through an academy and she wasworking as a correctional
officer.
So I said, let me find out howto do that.

(04:07):
So I thought it was cool.
I just thought the uniform wascool at first.
So I filled out the application, turned it in and six months
later went through the hiringprocess and got hired on as a
corrections cadet, went to theacademy in a little place called
Gower's Corner, Florida.
My academy size was a whopping16.

(04:29):
We were sponsored and I wasexcited by the rate of pay.
At the time was $5.60 an houror something like that, and when
we graduated we jumped up to$10.77 an hour and I thought I
was rolling in it.
This is 1997.
Had a great start to my careerat Pasco County, did some cool

(04:50):
stuff.
I got to be an FTO pretty quick.
I was an FTO about a year afterI got off probation.
I went to the crossover at thatpoint and the only reason I
went to the crossover honestlywas the crossover to Law
Enforcement Academy was just toprevent myself from being
privatized.
We had two jails really closeto Pasco County, one to the

(05:11):
immediate north Hernando Countyand one to the north of that,
citrus County that were run byCCA and I didn't want to.
You know, the threat was alwaysthere at budget time.
We're just going to privatizethe jail and not worry about
trying to add staff or addfunding.
We'll just privatize.
That was a big threat.
Thankfully for me that neverhappened.
But I was an FTO and then Iloved being a and I'll admit

(05:34):
this.
The only reason I became atraining officer is because I
liked the chevron on the sleeveat first.
Right.
I thought it looked good, so Iwent into FTO school and then
realized I love training.
I actually loved.
You know that was your firstforay into leadership, yet
you're responsible for one staffmember, at least you know
before.
We're responsible for anywherefrom 48 to times 110 inmates at

(05:58):
a time yeah but having a havinga new person who's interested in
in the profession and doesn'thave any bad habits, especially
the ones that are straight outof the academy, it was by far
the best to teach.
But I loved being an FTO.
In 2004, I became a corporal.
I was appointed to the rank ofcorporal and in 2007, I was

(06:21):
appointed to the rank ofsergeant I'm sorry, promoted to
the rank of sergeant and thatwas by far my second favorite uh
rank.
Sergeant was fun because youknow you get to do that training
, you get to do that mentoringand then you get to develop your
squad the way you see fit, andum had some great times as a
sergeant, pasco, and then in uhwe had I think the whole country

(06:43):
experienced the economicdownfall of the mortgage
industry.

Speaker 1 (06:48):
Yep.

Speaker 2 (06:49):
And the Hernando County was still privatized was
still CCA was running up thereand the county was strapped for
cash.
So they asked the sheriff atthe time up there to take a look
at the jail to see if he couldrun it cheaper than CCA, because
, no matter what was going on,cca never missed a contractual
increase and there was no.

(07:10):
Oh, I know you guys are hurting, so let's back off the contract
a little bit.
So the sheriff went up thereand took a look and realized the
building was in real bad shapein 2010.
So the sheriff was consideringit, but he actually was quoted
in the newspaper saying thejail's a piece of junk, I'm not
interested.
Well, at that point the privatevendor saw an opportunity, I

(07:31):
guess, to ask for a raise in atime where we couldn't afford a
raise as a state, as a countryand they pulled plug.
So the sheriff was asked againif he'd do it.
At the time it was SheriffNugent who became Congressman
Nugent.
He agreed to it.
So then they hired a jailadministrator and then they

(07:51):
hired me.
Next I came on as the onlylieutenant from Pasco.
I was told I was going to bepromoted to lieutenant in Pasco
County three months from then,or I could be promoted to
lieutenant in Hernando County,you know, within two days.

Speaker 1 (08:08):
Was that part was part of that because you'd done
so much training that theywanted you in place to to do a
lot of this change over andtraining and stuff, or what do
you think the reason was thatthey were reaching out to you,
well, believe it or not?
Because you were on the streetat this time, right.

Speaker 2 (08:25):
No, I was.
I was still working in the jail.

Speaker 1 (08:27):
You were back in the jail, okay, my fault.

Speaker 2 (08:29):
I never went to the law enforcement side until
Hernando so I was dual certifiedthe whole time in the jail but
I was never allowed to go out topatrol.
Luckily in Hernando thingschanged a little bit.
Okay, hurt my feelings a littlebit.

(09:00):
I'm hoping Brian had to watchthis video podcast because when
he called me up and asked me ifI would consider going to
Hernando County leaving PascoCounty, he was my major at the
time.
He was my professional mentorand he basically kicked me out
of the nest.
He saw an opportunity for me toactually have a once in a
lifetime or once in a careeropportunity to take a jail over

(09:22):
from a private vendor.
So I went up and met with atthe time it was Major Mike Page
and he gave me the hey, I need alieutenant, Are you interested?
That was my interview.
I said how much time do I have?
He says I can give you 15 or 20minutes.
So I called my stepdad at thetime and he was a retired NYPD,

(09:42):
passed away since then, but hewas retired and I said hey, Tony
, what do you think I should do?
He goes, you should go.
The rest is history.
So, 2010, we were part of atransition team.
We hired 130 correctionalprofessionals, from control
operators to deputies.

(10:03):
We were appointing people intoranks, into corporal sergeant.
We had a whole medical unit, werun our own medical unit, we
run our own kitchen.
So we hired all in uh and wedid all that with full
background checks and we didthat in just under 90 days.
So to hire 130 people in under90 days with full background
checks, it's pretty impressive.

Speaker 1 (10:24):
How much of an academy were you putting them
through?

Speaker 2 (10:26):
We didn't.
So, believe it or not, the onlyperson that we hired that had
no experience was one, and he'sone of my two lieutenants now.
Javier De Jesus has been a rockstar and he's the only one that
came in with no experience, buthe picked it up pretty well.
He never actually had an FTOprogram.
Everybody we hired was alreadyno experience, but he picked it
up pretty well.

Speaker 1 (10:44):
He never actually had an FTO program Okay.

Speaker 2 (10:45):
Everybody we hired was already Florida certified.
They came from either theFlorida Department of
Corrections.
We did pull a few people fromPasco County, all over the state
of Florida, and we made our ownteam in 2010.
And since then it's been 15years and it's been an absolute
blessing.
It's been an absolute blessing.

(11:06):
2010, roughly 2017, I gotappointed to the rank of captain
.
The sheriff gave me anopportunity to become the jail
captain.
That's kind of when I had theopportunity.
When I was a lieutenant, I wentto HR for four months.
That was the sheriff giving memy first chance Outside of the
jail.
I was the interim humanresources director, where I
probably learned the most in mycareer in those four months

(11:28):
being in charge of humanresources.

Speaker 1 (11:32):
Helped you as a supervisor too later on, didn't
it?
Absolutely.

Speaker 2 (11:36):
I transferred back to the jail and then had an
opportunity to go over tospecial operations where they
allowed me to kind of justbasically dabble, where I
couldn't get in trouble with mylaw enforcement certification.
So at the time I was in chargeof animal enforcement and some
of the specialty units the SWATteam and aviation and marine
those kind of things that werepretty fun to be around and then

(11:58):
cool, great staff to learn from.
From there I got promoted tocaptain, went back to the jail
for a couple years and then mymajor at the time, major Page,
retired.
The sheriff brought over acouple majors from the law
enforcement side.
I got to train basically traintwo majors.
So one of them was there for ayear and then they switched out

(12:22):
and went back to the patrol sideand the other one came over.
I was there for a year and thenthey switched out and went back
to the patrol side and theother one came over Great guys
and one of them became the chiefdeputy and actually the other
one became the chief of policeat a local police department.
So it was pretty cool and whenthey left I had the opportunity
to share it for my birthday in2020.
They took me to lunch and askedme if I was interested in being
a jail administrator and I saidabsolutely.

(12:46):
He said you sure you're ready?
I said I've been ready, boss,and you know the most
professional, polite, notcondescending way, because it's
been.
That was my goal, was todevelop myself into that, to be
ready when the time came.
What an opportunity it's been,and so it's been just over five
years since then.
Been it's been, and so it'sbeen just over five years since

(13:07):
then been able to do some reallycool stuff, because I have
really amazing people.
You mentioned in the intro thatum, I'm a florida correction
accreditation, one of thecommissioners on that commission
, and then about three weeks ago, I was sworn in as the 45th
president american jailassociation, which is should be
the pinnacle your career, right,should be the absolute peak um,
but I hope to have at least 10years to go.
This year is going to be veryinteresting, very busy.

(13:30):
It's been a busy three weeksand I'm just looking forward to
what's next.

Speaker 1 (13:35):
Absolutely so.
How big is Hernando County now?
How many staff, how manyinmates are you working with
there?

Speaker 2 (13:43):
So we have for county inmates only you working with
there.
So we have for county inmatesonly we have 480.
Now when we took over oddlyenough 15 years ago we took over
the first count cleared at 602.
And now I have down to 480.
Covid really dropped.
It's spiked back up.
We've been hovering well like120 less than that day one.

(14:03):
But we also house prisoners forthe US Marshal Service and then
we actually hold inmates forPasco County because they're out
of that space.
They've got new constructiongoing on, so we house about 200
paying customers.
We say it that way and so I'msitting at, you know, 650 or so.
It's design capacity of thebuilding is 812.

(14:24):
We know that.
You know design capacitydoesn't mean anything when
classification gets involved.
Operationally 748 iscomfortable, and then in the
county we're just over 200,000people.
So as a county, staff-wise Ihave roughly 150, 160 staff and
that's sworn civilian medicaleverybody together.

Speaker 1 (14:45):
Okay, so just inform me.
In the state of Florida, whenyou say sworn, they're sworn
deputies and then they work incorrections, so they go through
the same academy as somebodythat works on the street.

Speaker 2 (14:58):
No, there's two different academies.
There's actually threedifferent academies.
There's a law enforcementacademy, corrections academy and
there's a probation academy anda corrections academy and a
probation academy and thecorrections academy is about
three and a half months and it'sgood training.

Speaker 1 (15:12):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (15:12):
Law enforcement academy is a little bit longer
than that, just over six months.
But it's better than a lot ofstates that don't even have a
base for a career academy, so weare definitely way ahead of
them.

Speaker 1 (15:24):
Sure, even have a base recruit academy.
So we are definitely way aheadof them, sure?
So is there a cto, fto programwhen they come back from the
academy also?

Speaker 2 (15:31):
yeah, we have a three-phase uh san jose model
fto program.
Okay, we do that's uh, fourweeks, four weeks, and then the
two-week third phase, finalphase, but that's now 12-hour
shifts.
It's really two weeks, twoweeks and one full week of work,
but it's worked for us, believeit or not.
My trainers have always beenawesome.
My FTOs have been awesome.
We've only really everremediated anybody three, four

(15:54):
times in 15 years.
They really take it seriously.
Obviously, as a trainer, you'retraining your partner, you're
training your backup, you'retraining that person you're
going to be relieving and youwant to make sure they're doing
the job right.
So when you get there, you'renot having to control chaos or
get everybody back in business.
But our FTOs are great and oursergeants in the middle

(16:17):
management especially right now,my middle managers are amazing.

Speaker 1 (16:21):
Yeah, so I just had this discussion a couple of
weeks ago about CTOs or FTOs,and they are one of the most
important positions that you canhave, because they not only
give these people the start andthe knowledge and everything
that they need to become acorrectional officer, but those
people truly set the cultureinside your agency, don't they?

Speaker 2 (16:43):
They can set it and they can ruin it if you're not
careful.
Your line trainers to CTO, ftoor in your training unit in
general can really set the tone.
They really spend the mostone-on-one time with anybody,
even if it's just a week ofin-service or a day here and
there at in-service, you have alot of influence when you're in

(17:04):
front of a room and you'remaking off-color comments about
the agency or maybe talkingabout the command staff, and
there's no place for that.
You've got to own your life andown your position, no matter
what, and obviously if you'recomplaining about it, you're not
trying to fix it.
So it's important to own yourspot and lead, no matter what.

Speaker 1 (17:26):
Right, that's actually how I became a
lieutenant.
I was griping, I was a GS-8,walked in the lieutenant's
office.
I can still picture it.
He looked up over his glasses.
He was typing.
He goes are you on thelieutenant's roster.
I said no.
He said then shut up and getout of here.
You're not going to help fix it.

Speaker 2 (17:45):
I don't want to hear it I mean in all reality, every
position, even if you don't wantto move up, every position is a
position of leadership, right?
But sergeants have a hugeinfluence, at least their squad
and shift lieutenants typicallyhave a huge influence on their
shift.
So they set the tone, they settypically the demeanor,
especially those night shiftlieutenants who get the new
people.
You've got to be careful abouthow you assign those and make

(18:15):
sure they're not beingcultivated into a negative
situation.
But that takes time, especiallyif you're inheriting a culture
that's challenging.
I mean, you've seen some of thethings going on across the
country.
I couldn't imagine trying to setup shop in certain places but I
mean leadership andrelationships work right.
So if you know your people andyou're willing to take the bull
by the horns and kind of youknow toe the line you know I'm

(18:38):
not backing off this.
These are the standards we'regoing to adhere to.
People need to be led that way.
We want to be Joke around.
Talk about the inmatepopulation, but even your staff,
even your kids, it's just theCesar Millan rule, the dog
whisperer.
They need rules, boundaries andlimitations, right they?

(18:59):
start doing something that youdon't want them to do.
You got to fix it.
I mean, obviously, coursecorrecting is not no, you can't
do it like with a dog.
You can't.
You can't just yoke on theleash a little bit and tighten
them up.
But some days you probably wantto, but it doesn't work that
way.

Speaker 1 (19:14):
Right.

Speaker 2 (19:14):
We all need that.

Speaker 1 (19:16):
Yeah, absolutely, and I think you see it in
corrections, because correctionsas a, as a position, is a
leader, whether it's justinmates or whether it's your
peers, coworkers.
But you look outside ofcorrections and our officers,
when they go out in thecommunity, they're running
t-ball coaches, they're runningthe Sunday school Bible study,

(19:39):
they're doing all these thingsin the community and the reason
is because they're such goodleaders.
Not everybody leads at Artelab.

Speaker 2 (19:47):
No, you're right.
And what kind of job do youtypically have where you have a
captive audience and you get todo practice public speaking
almost daily, right?
So you're used to managingcrowds and recognizing when
something's off a little bit.
You've gotten to the pointwhere you walk into a housing
unit and you know something justwent wrong.
Either something just happenedor something's about to happen,

(20:08):
and you can usually tell thedifference pretty quickly.

Speaker 1 (20:11):
But yeah, you're right.

Speaker 2 (20:12):
Every position, like I said it, just right.
I used to coach T-ball.
I used to coach, you know, uh,youth league baseball and and,
uh, I, I loved it.
Uh, actually, my nephew mynephew was just here and when he
gets old enough I plan on doingit again, but that is.
You're part of the communityand and my sheriff says it all

(20:32):
the time could see the inside ofwhat happens in a jail every
day, because you don't know, theonly time people pay attention
to a jail or a prison is whensomething bad happens.
Right, sometimes it somehowgets the news.
Or you know, all of a suddenthere's a perimeter and
somebody's looking for somebodyand that's a bad day, but
there's so much good stuff thathappens inside our jails and
prisons all across the countryevery single day that the public

(20:53):
just doesn't get to know about.
So sometimes we've got to beour best advocates, our own best
advocates, and share thatinformation.
Part of the reason I'm heretoday is to talk about.
You know, we are professionalsand this profession is a
legitimate profession.
And you know, I remember when Iwas probably 23, 24 years old
and I was visiting my aunt inMassachusetts and back then I

(21:18):
called her an aunt, but now it'saunt, but I, you know she's
like.
So when are you going to be donewith the jail?
When are you going to go to thelaw enforcement side?
What do you mean?
She goes.
Well, it's just a steppingstone.
I said nothing about what I'mdoing is a stepping stone.
We, you know, we're controllingchaotic places and most of the

(21:40):
time most places probably makeit look easy.
We do a good job.
I think we professionalize thisprofession so well that the
training is.
I mean, there's always a placefor improvement, there's always
room for improvement.

Speaker 1 (21:52):
Absolutely.

Speaker 2 (21:53):
It's something that I'm passionate about pretty
early and there's no place.
I'd rather be this is it.
Yeah, I'm passionate aboutpretty early and there's no
place.
I'd rather be this is it.

Speaker 1 (22:01):
Yeah, and I don't think I heard that when I
started 30 years ago as much.
But I am hearing more and moreof the officers I talked to know
this is my career.
This wasn't because when I 30years ago, I do feel like a lot
of people thought it was astepping stone, but I think now
there's a lot of people that dolook at it as a career and
there's such wow.

(22:21):
I mean, you can go anydirection in corrections.
Where do you want to live inthe US?
Where do you want to live inthe world?
And you could be a correctionalofficer.
That's the best part, you know.

Speaker 2 (22:30):
So my father-in-law I married into a great family.
My father-in-law, phil Wood,was.
He was a lieutenant for theHernanacash Sheriff's Office.
He retired before I got to workthere.
I met his daughter she workedrecords.
I met his wife.
She was the director of IT.
So it's a family business.
But he worked in a jail backwhen it was the small jail in
downtown Brooksville and heswore by former correctional

(22:54):
officers.
Anybody who worked in a jail orprison came to the street.
They had that gift of gab.
They were able to talkthemselves out of a lot of
scenarios and a lot ofsituations.
Because you know, you don't runinto the housing unit typically
with a bat belt, you don't havea firearm, you're not wearing a
baton typically I mean whatmost?
Pepper spray in a set ofhandcuffs most of the time.
And he raves about that.

(23:17):
And all the way to what we'redoing now, we started about two
years ago.
We finally, believe it or not,the state of Florida lowered the
lowest age to start as acorrectional officer to 18.
They did that to benefit theDepartment of Corrections
because their staffing was solow.
They were trying to just addbodies.
So we took advantage of it.
So we started hiring peopleright out of high school,

(23:38):
training them the way we want totrain them.
Put them through theCorrections Academy, give us two
and a half years, three years.
If you want to go to the lawenforcement side, we will put
you through the CrossoverAcademy, pay you to go and then
transfer you to patrol.
And quite often the formerdetention deputies, the former
COs that go to the patrol side,they flourish, they do a good
job.
Former COs that go to thepatrol side, they flourish, they
do a good job, they don't.
You know, pressure's not a bigthing when you're surrounded by

(24:00):
you know a hundred felons andyou compare that to talking to
one suspect in a room orclearing a scene.
It's something that should bemore taken advantage of.
I think you know I meanCalifornia, the Los Angeles
Sheriff's Department is who Ikind of saw that model where
they put them through the jailfirst.
I mean they come out of theacademy they're basically peace

(24:21):
officers, dual certified, wecall it in Florida and go to the
jail and if you want to go topatrol, then you transfer out,
and if you want to promote, yougo back into the jail, learn how
to be a supervisor and then goback out to the law enforcement
side.
We haven't gone that far, butthe models work so far.

Speaker 1 (24:39):
We're doing pretty well.

Speaker 2 (24:40):
We've had a lot of success and what I'm happy about
is some of those detentiondeputies are like, no, this is
right where I want to be.
I don't want to go anywhere.
So I thought you know could runinto a staffing issue for us,
but luckily for us, we areprobably right at 100% staff.
To be honest, actually,throughout the entire agency,
we're doing pretty well.
It's a blessing right now, nice.

Speaker 1 (24:59):
Yeah, you know I'm going to butcher this paraphrase
, but somewhere in the art ofwar it says something about in
the midst of chaos there isalways opportunity is because
how often does the normal personhave the opportunity to test
their leadership, to test theirdecision-making skills, to test

(25:22):
their communication skills,whereas in corrections, like you
were saying earlier, I meanthat's every day, Every single
day, yeah All the way down togetting the population to comply
with, getting their bunks madeand lining up straight for chow
Right.

Speaker 2 (25:37):
It's easier to let it get loose.
It's a lot easier as a person.
Why should I deal with thatEspecially?
You know we've all relievedthat officer that we were like,
oh no, taking this post overthis place is going to be chaos.
It's going to be a mess, right.
You know you hope for when youwalk into a housing unit and the
inmates are saying, oh no, it'scollusion, right, Because I'm

(25:59):
not going to be.
I've never been abusive,Absolutely not, Never been
disrespectful, but I told theline.
I knew that in my handbookbetter than any of the inmates
ever did so, and I enforced itand consistently enforced it.
So the consistency is the keyand I think that's where you
develop as a CO to flourishanywhere you go, because you're
going to be consistentlydisciplined and to do the right

(26:19):
thing no matter what, even ifit's pain in the rear when
you're relieving that oneofficer that you don't want to
relieve.
But you know you've got tostraighten that unit out.
It's going to take a couplehours, but it's definitely worth
it.

Speaker 1 (26:31):
Yeah.
So let me, because you haveworked your way up and you see
another side of corrections injail and I want to talk about
that because you're a member ofthe Florida Corrections
Commission and, of course, nowyou're president of the American
Jail Association.
So from that larger strategiclook, what are some of the

(26:54):
things that you're looking atnow that we can improve that,
that we're moving forward withwhat's some of those challenges
that are out there in front ofyou at that level.
So I still think um.

Speaker 2 (27:06):
So let's put it on a national level.
I think one of the biggestthings we can work on is still
continue thatprofessionalization of the
profession hard to say, it seemslike it's even harder to do.
I think one of the things Iwant to work on this year with
the American Jail Association istry to develop a sort of like a
one-size-fits-all at least verybasic corrections academy

(27:27):
curriculum of some sort thatjurisdictions that don't have
them could take a look at themand use them and try to develop
their own things.
We have so many good trainers,amazing trainers in Jail
Association that I would highlyencourage them to reach out to
anybody, even on the board ofdirectors or staff.
We'd be able to point anybodyout in the right direction.
I think, establishing thoseminimum standards too.

(27:50):
We just watched a situation inNew Orleans still unfolding
still two escapees out there.
But Louisiana doesn't haveminimum jail standards.
I believe it's something like24 states, don't?
Still the numbers are guess, sodon't quote me there.
But I know having the Floridamodel jail standards to follow

(28:10):
is just such a great guideline.
There are times where sheriffsget elected and they don't
always hire or have somebodythat they know from the jail, so
they want to put somebody theytrust in as a jail administrator
.
Well, what better way than tohave a good set of policies and
model jail standards to follow?
To run your jail will help youget out or stay out of so much

(28:30):
hot water.
But I think at the same time,nationally, just recognizing
correctional officers as firstresponders.
You know we are absolute firstresponders.
The first person, the firstgroup of people to respond to a
suicide attempt is a CO.
If there's a fire in a prisonor a jail, the correctional
officers are responding to thosefires.

(28:50):
First, you know we'reresponding to ODs.
There are times we'reresponding to and especially
hopefully in a jail setting morethan a prison, but we're
responding to, you know,pregnant inmates starting to
give birth going to labor, we'reresponding to anything like
that heart attacks, any of thatstuff so we are the first to
respond.
Of course we're going to callparamedics, we're going to call
the fire department, but we'rethe first ones in there and
there are plenty of places thatdon't recognize correctional

(29:12):
officers as first responders orjust at the same level as a
firefighter or a police officer.
You know we're going in thereserving and maintaining that
security as best we can everysingle day.
There are days where you'reshort-staffed.
Or you know, three years or afew years ago, when we were for
three years surrounded by COVID,no matter what, and all that

(29:33):
doom and gloom being stuck inthe buildings.
So when people wanted to come towork more then you know they
wanted to serve.
They recognized that scenarioand they wanted to make sure
that they were not part of theproblem.
They wanted to be there and Iremember some of my guys would
get COVID I'm trying to getcleared as fast as possible and
I was like don't get clearedwhen you're healthy and ready to
come back.
That's what I'm worried about.

(29:53):
But on a national level, if wecan get some even just
resolutions from the legislatorsto say you know, correctional
officers.
You know we got a week a year in.
May right, ronald Reagan nailedthat in 1984.
And you know, I think we couldbenefit the profession more if
we just recognize the great workthey do behind the walls every

(30:15):
single day.

Speaker 1 (30:17):
So how do we?
Because and you mentioned thiswe get noticed when somebody
leaves the jail.
We get noticed when a use offorce goes bad, but I can name a
couple of dozen times in mycareer that I know an officer
saved a life and if we wereoutside the walls it'd be front
page of the newspaper, butyou've never heard about it.

(30:37):
You never will.
How do we get that out there?
How do we bring about?
We're so secretive and thatcomes from the way we used to be
.
We didn't want people lookingat our jails.
They were a very private thing.
I don't know if because theydidn't want them to see what was
going on or what, but we're nolonger that way.

(30:58):
How do we open it up?
How do we bring people in?
And I mean more than just showslike Jail for 60 Days or
whatever that one is.
That makes they almost make funof what we do.
So any thoughts on?

Speaker 2 (31:11):
Yeah, some of those shows are beneficial, especially
the booking stuff.
The booking is, I think they doa good job of not, you know,
making us.
You know the days of theknuckle-dragging cage kickers
are over right.

Speaker 1 (31:24):
Right.

Speaker 2 (31:25):
We are absolute uniform professionals and I
think what we need to do is weneed to sell ourselves.
So I have the absolute blessingright now of working for an
agency that has about 180,000followers on our Facebook page.
So every time we do somethingwell, somebody gets a
certification.
We pass an inspection all theway down to somebody drops off

(31:46):
food to share with the staff.
We post it.
We do it as much as we can.
Our Citizens Academy is a jailday.
It includes the history, thebackground on how we operate and
then a huge tour.
We have to own our message.
We have to be able to tell ourstory and I know even all the
way down to when we have a GEDgraduation.

(32:07):
We make sure the sheriff comesover.
He's the master of ceremonies,basically.
We always invite a countycommissioner to come, and
typically they show up and theycome and enjoy that too.
So I mean, wins for inmates arewins for us too, right?
So if we're the vast majority ofthe people we work around every
single day, that live there,are going to return to your

(32:28):
community one way or another andif we can return a better
person to society, a morewell-trained I mean our GED
program.
The recidivism rate, at leastin our own county, is so low
it's not even funny.
I can't tell you if they'verecidivated somewhere else, but
the same people that get theirGED in my building.
They don't come back.
So I mean that says something.

(32:49):
I think we have to own ourmessage.
I mean social media.
Every time we can get on a mediaoutlet of some sort a podcast
like this, anytime.
We, from a jail associationperspective, we often and always
need people to write for ourmagazine.
So if you're an expert insomething and you want to share

(33:10):
your expertise, we are alwayslooking for content for our
magazine and we have a greatstaff.
Madison does a fantastic job atheadquarters no-transcript,

(33:34):
she's great.
Push the narrative that we haveto work on ourselves and and
just get better, and we have toown our mistakes.
I mean, I agree with you hidingbehind the wall and not telling
what's going on there is ischallenging.
Obviously you don't want toever mess up a criminal
investigation or something likethat, or or upset necessarily uh
, potential or you know victimsof people you want to make, you

(33:56):
want to be careful it.
But we have to own thenarrative and sometimes you know
sunlight's the bestdisinfectant and there are times
where you know telling the fullstory and showing the pictures
and sometimes showing the video,yeah, here's what we did here.
This was bad.
This is what we learned.
Here's how we're going to fixit.
If you come out and say, hey,we screwed up, it's better than

(34:17):
hiding for years and years andyears until the judge orders it
released.

Speaker 1 (34:21):
Absolutely.

Speaker 2 (34:23):
Just get ahead of it.
You've got to control thenarrative.
You've got to control your ownmessage.

Speaker 1 (34:28):
I know the AJA does some of this already, but I
would also love to see judges,congressmen, senators.
I want to see them come throughmore.
And it blows my mind because Iknow jails that haven't seen a
judge walk through in forever.
And how can you seriouslysentence somebody to jail or
prison if you haven't seen whereit's at?

(34:50):
And I would love to open it uplike that more and have those
people come through more,because they're the ones that
have the money.
They're the ones that put outthe resources.
Tennessee is a great example.
Do you know about TCI?
I'm sure over there, tennesseeCorrectional Institute you know.
A lot of that money comes fromthe legislature and they're not
very many states do that, andthat money goes out to the jails

(35:12):
for training and improves allof them.
So I would love to see ourpoliticians involved in this
more.
They've got to be involved init more.
It's a huge part of our country.

Speaker 2 (35:26):
So in the state of Florida, by statute jails I'm
sorry, prisons legislators,anybody from the executive
branch of the state, government,judges, at any time can just
walk into a prison and theyreally can't stop them.
We don't have that standard ofthe state.
Government judges at any timecan just walk into a prison and
they really can't stop them.
We don't have that standard atthe jail.
But if a judge or a localcongressman or somebody wants to
walk around, we're going toshow them in.

(35:47):
Come on in, my sheriff offersit all the time.
If you want to just see theinside of the jail, just because
you're nosy, perfect, let's go.
You know, it's funny.
Sergeant Brad Clito is myadministrative sergeant right
now and he did a presentationfor the county, kind of has like
a citizen's academy for theirstaff and it's you know.
They just show you all thedifferent parts of the local
government.

(36:07):
Well, in Florida the sheriff isan independent constitutional
officer.
So when they say but the countyis ultimately responsible for
the jail, so they recognize thatthe sheriff's running it for
their benefit, but they came anddid the jail, so they recognize
that the sheriff running it fortheir benefit, but they came
and did the tour.
And Brad pointed out before thetour started.
He said, just so you know, weoperate 24-7 here.

(36:28):
He says we are 95% inspectionready at all times.
But when you see the placeclean and you don't smell
anything it's because we do thatevery day.
We didn't clean up becauseyou're here, so you got to
operate that way.
But having that level ofopenness and the ability to, if
a citizen legitimately wants towalk into a tour, we'll do it.
I'll do a 24-hour stay.
I have staff there 24 hours aday.

(36:49):
Somebody can peel off and do atour real quick.

Speaker 1 (36:52):
But yeah, I agree with you.
Yeah, and you're absolutelyright.
I visited a federal prison lastweek.
They invited me up there forcorrectional workers week and we
started taking the tour and wehadn't been, I don't know a
couple of hundred feet insideand somebody was like well, let
me show you this over here.
You know we do a real great.
I said I already figured outyou do a real great job.
I said I've been around this along time.

(37:14):
I can walk in immediately andlook at the corners and look at
the inmates.
And the inmates were not scaredof the staff.
They were all engaging, theywere interested, and these were
inmates who are talked to,communicated with on a regular
basis.
And I knew that the minute Iwalked through the door.
So we don't have any reason tohide it.
We do a great job.

Speaker 2 (37:34):
Yeah, one of the other things we could focus on
too.
Speaking hiding is part ofbeing on the accreditation
commission in florida is wherewe're accredited and next week
actually, we're getting ourfourth three accreditation for
fcac.
I'm on the commission, so I'llhave to recuse myself for that
one, but it's going to be anawesome opportunity.
In three years or three yeah,three years from now, we're

(37:56):
going go to what's calledExcelsior status for FCAC, which
takes time to get there.
But when I have assessors inthe building, we have Florida
Model Jail Standards, whichrequires a scheduled audit or
inspection every year, and thenthere's a 120-day window post or
previous to that scheduledinspection they can have

(38:18):
unannounced.
So we're expecting anunannounced any day of the week,
but when the assessors are inthe building, my staff don't run
for them.
They, you know, walk throughthe hallways everybody's office
door isn't closed trying toavoid the assessors or the audit
team.
They want to engage, they knowtheir job, they love their job,
they're proud of their job andthey want to tell the story and

(38:39):
they're prepared, of course.
Of course, when our fcacinspection comes around, do we?
Do we send out the reminders?
And, hey, if you hypotheticallya question comes up, you don't
know the answer, it's okay, findthe answer and find that
assessor and go tell them youfound the answer here you go.
But you know when you, when youhave the culture of doing the
right thing no matter what andthen being inspection ready at

(39:00):
all times, there's no reason toavoid telling your story.
So I mean, that's how we getsome great ideas anyway,
sometimes your assessors comethrough your building and they
steal one of your programs orthey steal the way you're doing
things.
And as you get involvedpersonally as an assessor or an
accrediting body inspector, yougo get to steal some stuff too,

(39:20):
because everybody's doing goodthings.
You're not going to voluntarilydo extra accreditation if
you're not doing the right thing.
You're going to meet theminimum standards, and that's
what scares me about what I saidearlier.
Sometimes the minimum standardsaren't even there because you
don't know what they are.
But we just have to own thenarrative and that takes
training and that takes theculture of.

(39:42):
It's okay to make a mistake.
You're not going to have yourhead lobbed off.
If you make a mistake, behonest about it.
But we're much better off whenwe're telling our story and then
showing the world what we'redoing to the best of our ability
.
Obviously, you're not going tohave news crews walking around,
running around with live feedfrom the jail.

(40:02):
You want to control that tosomewhat, because you have to
make sure people have dignitytoo, meaning the people that
live there.
You've got to treat them likeprofessionals at all times.
If we can tell good stories andthen just get ahead of the bad
ones, I think we'll be okay.

Speaker 1 (40:18):
I think you caught my eye on LinkedIn because we
think a lot alike.
I know some of your leadershipthoughts you put out on LinkedIn
and one of them I saw prettyearly on I think you just posted
the word good, and so if you'veever listened to Jocko's, is
that where you oh, yeah, yeah,instead of making excuses, let's

(40:42):
figure out how we can moveforward.
So I know you study thisleadership.
What's some of if you're goingto give you know this let's
start off with a recruit.
If you're going to start offwith a new officer coming into
work at a jail, what's some ofthat information and advice you
want to give them?

Speaker 2 (41:00):
So this is going on right now.
As a matter of fact, one of mypatrol captains, his son, came
to work for me.
Gavin's a good kid and he metwith me before he decided to.
He applied to go to the lawenforcement training the cadet
path and I said why don't youcome to the jail first and learn
how to talk to people right?
And then John and I CaptainMcMurdo and I are pretty good

(41:22):
friends and he brought him overand we had a good conversation.
The first thing I did was handhim the Jocko and Leif book
Extreme Ownership.

Speaker 1 (41:29):
Absolutely and.

Speaker 2 (41:30):
I said read this.
This is going to become yourmanhood Bible.
When you are able to owneverything in your life, realize
that you're the cause of mostof it and you're the only one
that can take uh, you know,control your own emotions, as
you, your reactions to youremotions as you, um and truly.
And it all comes down toleadership, right you, every day
, we're leading ourselves.

(41:51):
And that's exactly what thattalks about.
Um, and?
And I hadn't heard back fromgavin, and I can't wait to point
this out to him and I sent himan email hey, how's the book
going?
And he admitted right away, hemeant I haven't had a chance to
get to it yet, I'll get started.
And then I said all right, I'mexpecting some kind of response.
And a couple weeks later heresponded I started the book.

(42:11):
Here's what's going on in thefirst three paragraphs or not
paragraphs, but chapters.
He's figuring it out prettyquick.
In our roll call room, we usethe mantra up there it's no bad
teams, only bad leaders.
So we have that right on theline.
And it's also it's not what youpreach, it's what you tolerate.

Speaker 1 (42:33):
Absolutely.

Speaker 2 (42:34):
You can have the gift of gab.
You can talk about the thingsthat you would ideally like to
have in an organization, butuntil you can back it up and
prove that you're doing that,you have nothing.
So I take advantage of those.
There's some phenomenal booksout there, especially when it
comes to leadership books.
There's so many different waysto look at leadership, but
you're truly all telling thesame story.

(42:55):
It's just a matter of how youlike to ingest it.
I was never in the military.
I started this job when I was19 years old, so I enjoy the
paramilitary lifestyle and sothe military books resonate with
me and those guys at NationalOff-Front.
They do a great job.
Those books are absolutelyamazing.
I had the opportunity a fewyears ago my wife bought me for

(43:18):
Father's Day.
I got to go to one of theirroll call sessions in Dallas.

Speaker 1 (43:21):
Oh, did you really Tell me about that?
Oh, that was man.

Speaker 2 (43:24):
It was awesome.
I remember I was back up to awhopping 260 pounds.
My all-time high weight was 302, not proud of that, but after
the FBI and A, it got down to210.
Now I'm sitting at like 230.
But I had to get down because Iknew that I was going to have
the full experience and I knewthey were going to do the PT in
the morning and I didn't want tomiss it.
So I did and I went to Texasand we got up and down.

(43:47):
We're in the parking lot at 430in the morning.
That's where I got to meetJocko and I got an autographed
picture of him and office.
And what a great group of peoplethough.
Those guys are, so down toearth.

(44:07):
Their stories are amazing,their leadership style is
amazing, and it was only a dayand a half seminar, basically,
but it echoed exactly what youread in the books and it was
cost effective.
It wasn't too expensive and itwas just an opportunity.
And I'm friendly with a coupleof them still and we're
connected on LinkedIn and we'refriends on Facebook a couple of
them and a couple of them I canalways reach out to.
Hey, I get this scenario.
What do you think?
And most of the time it getsback to like.
Dave Burke, as a matter of fact, is one of them.

(44:28):
He's like you've got to detach,you're taking it too personal,
and he's usually right, and it'snice to have that a little bit
of an outlet.
Luckily for me, I finally Ithink I figured it out.
We all have bad days, uh, butare you really having a bad day
or is it a bad few minutes,right?
so you have to just be able toadapt and overcome.
And those guys, the adaptationwhen it comes to that, that

(44:49):
three minutes of watching thatvideo, good, right, yeah,
everything's going wrong.
Good, this is an opportunity toimprove.
Find a better process.
Find, most of the time, thatbetter process is inside your
own head, getting it right andthen resetting and being able to
, to move forward.

Speaker 1 (45:07):
Yeah, you mentioned dave burke.
I'm super excited.
July is that when his bookcomes out.
Yes, it is july.
Yeah, so I'm really looking.
I love his, his conversationson there and, like you said, so,
down to earth Leadership.
Now I want you to step up toand I don't know how it works in
your jail, but I'm thatmid-level supervisor, that

(45:28):
person who's now taken that stepand they've got their peers
under them.
They're setting the standard,they're setting the culture.

Speaker 2 (45:37):
Tell me about what your advice for those guys is no
bigger challenge, I think, thangoing from being with your
friends and co-workers as a peerand then suddenly now you're
the boss and of course they getto know, especially when you're
taking over a shift.
I think we do a pretty good jobbecause I recognize when I made
sergeant I was suddenly incharge of my friends, which was

(45:59):
not an easy transition.
Right, you have to make surethat anybody being promoted to
rank a sergeant goes to adifferent shift and they get to
start over with a fresh slate.
Basically, yeah.
But that's the hardest partseparating yourself from the
line and recognizing that nowyou're responsible for
everything.
That line is doing Nothing,saying you can't be friendly.
You need to have relationshipsto be successful in leadership

(46:23):
or supervision.
You have to know your people.
You have to know them prettywell, especially at the line
level, because, honestly, you'retheir first responder.
Something's going on at home.
They're distracted or they'resick, or somebody in the family
is sick and they're having moneytroubles these things.
Eventually you get to knowtheir faces, you know
something's up.
As long as you're treating themright and you have good
relationships, you'd be able toidentify those things early, be

(46:44):
able to react to them and makesure that they're going to be
okay, because there's nothingmore stressful.
I'll say nothing more stressfulIf something, if I'm home and
something my wife and I have afight.
Thank God we don't fight veryoften, but I know that I'm
distracted until I get thatsorted out, because she's my
world, my family, is my mostimportant thing.
So until that's sorted out, Ican't concentrate fully on

(47:05):
anything else I'm doing.
So I'm thinking your staff isprobably going to have the same
challenges.
So, truly getting to know yourpeople, especially if you're a
new sergeant, I think that's thekey.
Moving into middle management,some shifts, some places, like
my facility, a sergeant runs ashift.
Historically, my last jail, alieutenant In Florida, most of
the mid-sized to large jailsit's a lieutenant or a captain

(47:30):
being able to now lead theleaders.
Nothing more stressful,probably, than a junior
lieutenant trying to tell a30-year sergeant hey,
something's wrong with yoursquad, we need to get this fixed
.
The paperwork's not right.
How come you can't formsentences?
I don't understand what's goingon.
These things you didn't have todeal with because they weren't
your sergeant.
You were working next to themright, but being willing to

(47:52):
stand up and be that leader, atthe same time trying to.
You can't just do as I say, notas I do.
You got to work with them.
But I think the challenge is,honestly, is keeping good, solid
relationships with people.
So you know your people and youknow their needs and if you can
meet their needs, do it.
There's no more frustrating ofa situation I was talking about

(48:14):
this at the AJA conference a fewweeks ago For people when they
put requests in or suggestionsin, or ask for clarification on
a policy or submit a memo toeven to ask for meritorious gain
time for an inmate, and theyjust don't hear anything back.
When you as a middle manager ora leader in general.
If you get something on yourdesk that somebody has taken the

(48:38):
time to create a document, tosend up the chain of command and
you can't take the time torespond to them, that is a
response right, and thatresponse looks like a middle
finger back at the staff.
Honestly, and nothing willdisenfranchise staff or lower
morale faster than people notresponding to suggestions.
If it's important to them, itshould be important to you, and

(49:01):
if it's something that justwon't work, that's okay.
Explain it to them, call themdown to your office or meet them
on their post and hey, I haveyour memo, I have your
suggestion.
Let's talk about it.
Can we afford it, you know?
Is it politically feasible?
Is it going to work long term,you know?
And have them work through it,because no supervisor wants

(49:22):
somebody to come to you withjust problems.
Right, you talked about thatearlier.
You're on the lieutenant's list.
Okay, stop crying about it.
If you have a problem, identifythe problem, come with
solutions and I will help youpick your best solution, because
it's not going to be mydecision.
One of the greatest complimentsI've received as a lieutenant
Sergeant.
Todd Dane, retired still one ofthe greatest people I've worked

(49:44):
with he came to me and said LT,can I say something to you?
I said any day of the weekbecause I appreciate the fact
that anytime we come to you witha situation if it's
classification versus housing orbooking versus the kitchen or
whatever and we come to you withan issue, as long as we come
with solutions, you always hearus out.

(50:06):
I said well, why wouldn't I?
I'm not here to.
I don't want to make all thedecisions.
I absolutely don't want to.
I want to be the tiebreaker ifnecessary.
That's the worst thing.

Speaker 1 (50:15):
I want to do.

Speaker 2 (50:20):
I want to be.
If I have to make the decisions, then I'm doing something wrong
.
If I'm not, I'm not developingpeople and I'm not making sure
that they're able to run theirshift or confident enough to
make decisions.
I shouldn't nobody's nobodyshould be that excited to make
the decisions all day long.
Listen, because you have thesame results If you work for a
micromanager or a laissez-faireleader, right, you have the same
results, called apathy.
Your staff don't care at thatpoint because the sergeant is

(50:42):
going to come down and tell themwhat to do anyway, so why
should I be proactive?
Or he doesn't care enough, sowhy should we care?
It's too, too easy to let themengage them.
I remember one of the firstarticles I wrote for American
Jail Association magazine waslowest level leadership.

Speaker 1 (50:59):
And.

Speaker 2 (50:59):
I would push as many decisions as possible down the
chain, not just because I didn'twant to, but empowering people
to reason through them and makethe decisions.
And what triggered that,honestly, was one day I was
sitting as a I think it was acaptain and I got a phone call
from a warden of a prison.

Speaker 1 (51:20):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (51:20):
And they were reaching out to me to ask me if
it was okay if one of theirprisoners wrote letters to one
of my inmates.
Why is the warden of a prisonasking me if an inmate can write
a prisoner's crime name?
Why can't that decision be madesomewhere else, Even in the
mailroom, as far as I'mconcerned?
check to make sure there's novictim issues and no
co-defendant issues.
And then who cares?
Right, especially the way we'vemade everything electronic.

(51:43):
We're going to gather intelpotentially, so why not let it
in?
As long as you're not hurtinganybody, why not?
So that was one of my favoritearticles I ever wrote and I live
it.
I don't need to make all thosedecisions.
I don't want that.
I want a culture of peoplewilling to make decisions,
willing to lead, and guess whatIf something goes wrong?

(52:03):
That's on me, right.
I mean, let's talk about Jocko,talk about his TED Talk.
That kind of started it all.

Speaker 1 (52:09):
It's on me.

Speaker 2 (52:10):
If something goes wrong, it's okay, I'll wear it.
And when I went to, when I wentto human resources for those
those first four months therethat I was there, I had a
meeting with the staff and Isaid listen, whatever goes wrong
back here is on me, whatever wewin is on y'all, so don't worry
about it, I'll take the bruntof it.
And that one goes such a longway because when you're used to

(52:33):
not, you know why is?
Why did this go wrong and howis this?
How did this happen?
Because I let it happen and youhave to be able to be willing
to own it.
It's, it's, it's.
So once you, once it clicks inyour head, read the books and
actually live a little bit onceit clicks it's easy, it makes
life easy, absolutely, yeah.

Speaker 1 (52:52):
Yeah, your decision is to build and surround
yourself with good people sothat you don't have to make
every decision.

Speaker 2 (52:58):
Yeah, I mean Henry Ford.
I think he was quoted as sayingthat too.
He's like I'm not the smartestperson in the room.
I'm going to surround myselfwith people that are smarter
than me and just let them work,because you can't, you can't
beat it, you can't beat it, youcan't, you can't.

Speaker 1 (53:13):
So tell me what's going on with you coming up with
the AJA, with what have you gotin the works?

Speaker 2 (53:20):
So we are getting back to basics, and hopefully
soon.
Actually, I just got notifiedthat some of our internal
podcasts are almost ready tocome out.
Congratulations, thank you.
We put together four of themwhile we were at the conference.
Don't let anybody know, I'mjust kidding.

Speaker 1 (53:40):
So we're going to put them out at least once a month.

Speaker 2 (53:42):
We're going to try to get our narrative out there a
little more active on socialmedia, all the way down to
YouTube, and I know we are, asan association, getting back to
the basics.
The reason why I fell in lovewith the American Jail
Association was in 2007,.
I went to a class calledMedical and Security Working
Together what a concept, right,and that's not always that easy

(54:03):
to do.
Luckily for me, my medicaldirector, christine Ducaney, and
I have worked together a longtime.
She was an LPN when I startedas deputy.
I'm sorry, vice versa, she wasan LPN when I was a deputy.
Already We've gone through theranks, we've grown up together.
Every time I got promoted, shegot promoted, and the last time
was the first time ever that shenow gets to work for me, which

(54:25):
was a tough adjustment for her.
Just kidding, we have such agood relationship.
But that first exposure toAmerican Jail Association
training was phenomenal.
I came back and that onetraining affected that part of
my career so much because I jokeabout the medical staff.
You know I love them Like youlove your little sister, right

(54:45):
when they come down to passmedication or you've got to deal
with a triage situation.
Protect them, get them out ofyour hair as fast as you
possibly can, but make surethey're safe and treat them
right and engage them.
And we do engage medical andmental health and most a lot of
decisions we make operationallybecause why not?
It's a different perspective.
Worst case scenario it's maybeit doesn't have anything to do

(55:08):
with medical, but somebody's gota different perspective.
So engage all your thoughtleaders that are surrounding you
, because not every like I saidearlier, not every decision has
to be yours.
But we're getting back to basics.
We are getting back toproviding world-class training.
We're going to make sure we aremeeting the needs of the
members.
I don't think we've ever notmet the needs of the members,
but I think we're going todouble down this year.

(55:29):
I'm excited we're going to talkabout online training.
We're going to revitalize thatonline training section on our
website.
We're creating good content.
I got to actually record somecontent a couple weeks ago,
which was the first time I'veever done that when it comes to
training purposes.
It was fun, but we are doingsome good stuff.
We're always going to lead theway in legislative stuff.

(55:49):
I know the FCC ruling that cameout a few months ago has really
hurt jails and prisons acrossthe country.
When it comes to funding aboutthe, they cut the.

Speaker 1 (56:02):
Oh, the collecting money off of phone calls.

Speaker 2 (56:07):
We stood to potentially lose $450,000 a year
, which paid for five people.
Well, if that funding goes away, then I got to find a way to
either lose people, which Idon't want to do, or get the
county to fund them.
So we're going to push thatlegislative initiative to make
sure we can try to get the FCCto at least come back to the

(56:27):
table and talk about how we canenforce it or, if not, just, you
know, forget about it.
Now the courts are going torule on that and I'm hoping soon
and I believe based oninteractions we've had, I don't
think the fcc is going to um,they're not going to hurt
feelings if it gets overturned.
So they're either way.
It's fine, but we need to pushit and make sure we don't lose

(56:51):
that valuable source of fundingand then also potential
long-term intelligence.
Because what's the benefit of a?
What prompts a phone company togo out and create technologies
that could help identify escapeattempts or criminal activity?
Why do it if you're not makingmoney?
Because they're in the businessto make money.

(57:13):
We're not there to give freephone calls away.

Speaker 1 (57:19):
And they're not truly free.
They're on the taxpayer's dime.

Speaker 2 (57:21):
Absolutely right at that point.
There's been a few sheriffsacross the country that have
said you know what, if I can'tmake money off of this to
support the inmate programs,then I just don't need phones.
No court case has ever come outand said you have to give an
inmate programs, then I justdon't need phones.
Nothing.
No court case has ever come outand said you have to give an
inmate phone calls.
You don't have to.
You have to give them access topeople.
You can do that on a letter,pen and paper, absolutely.

(57:44):
So we're going to continue tolegislate a front and make those
pushes and make sure we'repaying attention to bills all
the time that come out.
Even bills that you think wouldonly affect the Bureau of
Prisons eventually trickle downand affect the jail.
I mean, prea snuck up on us andpeople were like this will
never pass, this will never pass.
And guess what it passed.
Now we're even paying attentionto that the PREA Resource
Center being defunded during theDOGE situation with the current

(58:08):
administration.
So we've offered some trainingrecently on PREA.
Prea's still there, the rule.
It's still a law.
If you're going to remaincompliant, you're going to have
to get inspected and you'regoing to do all those things,
but those resources are gone.
So we're going to try to fillthat void a little bit, to offer
our insight, anything thatbenefits the members

(58:32):
specifically, especially intheir leadership development.
So one of the things I enjoytalking about is our
certifications.
So I'm a certified jail manager.
I was a certified jail officer.
And when I said in my speech acouple weeks ago, when I saw a
job advertisement in Texas for ajail administrator position
that required a bachelor'sdegree but preferred somebody
with a master's degree or anAmerican Jail Association

(58:54):
certified jail manager, I knewthat that credential meant
something.
So when they held it to thesame level as a master's degree,
that's important.
So credentialing is such agreat way to help
professionalize yourself, worktowards yourself.
I mean, it's not an easycredential to get, it's not a
gimme, and I'm 28 years in atthis point.
July 7th will be my 28th year,so I've been doing this a long

(59:18):
time, so I'm still trying towork on things.

Speaker 1 (59:21):
Absolutely.
Yeah, that is thoseaccreditations.
I did them through the ACA whenI first started and you do
learn a lot and it sets you upfor promotions.
It sets you up for successbecause you can go into the
house and you can learn from oldBob there in the back and he'll
teach you a few things.
But when you want to lookoutside of that housing unit and

(59:45):
you want to know how jails andprisons and the system runs,
you've got to, you've got toreach out farther.

Speaker 2 (59:51):
So that's great.
Back into the case law and thewhy behind the reasons why we do
things.
It really opens your eyes andit's going to help you later on
when you're answering grievancestoo.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:00:03):
I'm glad you mentioned that.
It's something I noticedtraveling the country and
teaching is the lack of case lawand we've really got to get
that back in our training.
A lot of officers are out thereworking and have no idea why
they're doing what they're doingand the repercussions of it is
the other thing.

Speaker 2 (01:00:21):
Locally we hosted a few months ago, american Jail
Association, my agency hosted aclassification course.
It wasn't the traditionalclassification course that we
offered.
It was modified and one of thethings we did do was we added a
legal section.
Now I took full advantage ofthe fact that our staff attorney
is also the attorney for theBoard of Directors for the
American Jail Association.
So I asked her if she'd offersome background and some insight

(01:00:43):
into the why behind what we'redoing, and she did a great job.
It turned into a two-hour basicof legal section before the
classification course kicked offand it really set the tone.
It was really beneficial andshe did a great job.
But you're absolutely right,it's too easy nowadays,
especially with the easy abilityto do the research.

(01:01:07):
We have all this opportunitywith AI.
I know I don't recommend youjust go write reports or start
making crazy ideas with AI andsubmitting them.
You have to use it as a tool.
You've got to take fulladvantage.
You have to vet the information.
But you can ask ChatGPT to do alot of stuff to include.
Give me some case law thatmight help here and it'll do a

(01:01:31):
good job of it.
You've got all.
You gotta make sure it'saccurate.

Speaker 1 (01:01:33):
but sure it'll really get you going have you used uh
notebook lm yet?
Oh, I got into that a few weeksago.
You just bring in, you point itto all these pdfs and all these
things and then ask itquestions based on everything
you've uploaded to it.
It's pretty cool, wow, allright, yeah, but same as every
other ai.
You got to go back through itand make sure that it's uh

(01:01:56):
giving you good information.
But uh, yeah, so I and I'll putall this stuff in the uh
underneath in the info section,but tell if people want more
information on certification,join in the AGA and that type of
stuff where where can they go?

Speaker 2 (01:02:14):
So just go to AGAorg.
The website is full ofinformation and if you can't
find it for some reason, I willanswer email almost 24 hours a
day.
So you can email me, seank atAGAorg.
Seank at AGAorg.
I have no problem sharing that.
I love engaging, especially ifyou're an AGA member.
Jump on iConnect.
Iconnect is a great opportunityto get a bunch of questions

(01:02:36):
answered for you.
It's basically a listserv, butit's basically live people
asking questions and providinggood information.
But, yeah, the website isdefinitely the best starting
point.
Any questions Anybody on theboard of directors is more than
willing to answer questions.
Anybody at headquarter staffall their emails are on the
website too Anybody.
And if you just want to followup and send me an email too,

(01:02:59):
I'll be glad to help push yourquestion along.
I'll probably have a lot ofanswers for you, but the nuanced
stuff the headquarter staff isgoing to be I would hope that I
wouldn't misspeak.
I prefer to get the rightinformation out there first, but
they do such a good job.
But I'd be happy to engage withanybody that's listening to
further their career in any way.

Speaker 1 (01:03:19):
Yeah Well, thank you so much.
It's a pleasure to meet you.
I'm super excited to have youon here.
I've been wanting to meet youfor a while.
Great conversation, I knew itwould be, and I appreciate you.

Speaker 2 (01:03:31):
Awesome.
Well, it was a great time andI'll be happy to come back
anytime.

Speaker 1 (01:03:35):
We'll do that.
Have a good day.
Thank you you too.
Hey, before we go, I'd like totake a minute to thank one of
our sponsors.
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(01:04:00):
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(01:04:24):
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(01:04:45):
Thanks for listening and let'sbe safe out there.

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107: Inside the American Jail System: Leadership & Innovation - Interview w/Shaun Klucznik

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}107: Inside the American Jail System: Leadership & Innovation - Interview w/Shaun Klucznik