112: Security, Innovation, and Leadership in American Prisons - Interview w/Pete Bludworth - The Prison Officer Podcast

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey guys, before I get to our first guest, I just
want to take a moment today andthank Pepperball.
You know they've been a sponsorof the Prison Officer Podcast
for more than three years andwithout their sponsorship I
wouldn't be able to bring thiscontent to you.
We wouldn't be able to havethese great conversations with
these leaders and trainers incorrections.
You know I used Pepperball formore than 20 years when I was

(00:24):
working in the institution.
It was something I believed in,so it was easy for me when I
got the chance to become amaster instructor for Pepperball
.
I get to go out and train lawenforcement and corrections and
I get to see you guys in thefield, so I really appreciate
that.
The great thing aboutPepperball is it gives the
officers the confidence to havea tool that they can use that

(00:46):
they know is going to work.
If you would reach out toPepperball wwwpepperballcom and
thank them for sponsoring thePrison Officer Podcast and,
while you're there, see all thenew things that are part of the
Pepperball family, well helloand welcome back to the Prison
Officer Podcast.
My name is Mike Cantrell.
Today I've got a longtimecolleague, pete Bloodworth.

(01:07):
Him and I both worked at theBureau of Prisons together.
We didn't cross pathsphysically a lot, but I crossed
paths with him as a mentor intraining.
I've crossed paths with him asdisturbance control team and
some of the ideas he broughtthat we accepted and stuff.
So I've got a lot to unpack andtalk to him about.
But today, pete Bloodworth,he's going to walk us through.

(01:29):
You know how he got intocorrections and everything.
But how many years did you havewith the BOP?

Speaker 2 (01:34):
I don't have a total.
It was closer to 25 than it was24.

Speaker 1 (01:38):
Okay, it was 24 and 7 months and 11 days 25 years
with the BOP and went from thereand went into the private
prisons, which I also want totalk about a little bit and just
hear about that because it wasfascinating.
I did get to go up.
What's it been?
Two years ago, about two yearsyeah.
Yeah, and got to come visit andwalk through and was extremely
impressed.
So I always like to start atthe beginning.

(02:00):
Pete, walk me through how yougrew up, where you grew up and
how you got into corrections.

Speaker 2 (02:06):
I started out, I grew up in Phoenix, arizona.
I actually lived in aneighborhood that was like on
the outskirts of Phoenix at thattime.
Now it's right in the middletype thing.
So I grew up in a very smalltownish type atmosphere.
We always kind of strolled tothe local Circle K store to, you
know, to get our candy andstuff like that.
We walked to school because itwas within a couple of miles.

(02:29):
I had a really good upbringingthere.
You know did have sometragedies as a child.
I had a brother that says someof the stuff you see on the wall
back here who was killed inVietnam.
I had another brother whoserved in Vietnam and he came
back, a different person.
But my mom was very strong andeven though my father had died
when I was a child, she was verydetermined to make sure we had
the best life that we possiblycould and she instilled a lot of

(02:51):
work, ethic, manners, you know,then that type of stuff as I
was growing up.
So even though it was achallenged environment, we did
the best that we could and mymom was definitely the.
She set the true north for allof us.
After graduating high school, Ijust grew up, stayed in the same
house all the way through.
I graduated high school.
I didn't know what to do withmyself.
Even though I was very good inschool, I had straight A's and

(03:14):
that type of thing I just had.
I wasn't really sure what to doand I always thought that
college was for rich kids, notfor kids like me.
So I did what my brothers did.
I joined the Marine Corps, hada fantastic upbringing in the
Marine Corps.
Started out I was in a sniperunit for a regimental scout
sniper platoon.
The S2 department Went fromthere into the infantry,

(03:37):
straight into infantry, deployedoverseas for the first time in
85.
Then I re-enlisted during thatdeployment and I was an
instructor at a naval schoolright there on Camp Pendleton
Field Medical Service School,and a lot of what led me through
the Bureau and gave me a lot ofadvantage in the Bureau was
what I received as an instructorthere, did two years there, and

(03:58):
I was trying to go to the drillinstructor field and they
assigned me to sea duty for anaircraft carrier, and I'm like
that's not exactly what I wastrying to do here, however, so I
went to sea duty, which wasfantastic, because you're a
small unit on a great big ship,you're surrounded by sailors
everybody's gonna learn to likeeach other.
And now it was a growingexperience for me, because not

(04:20):
only did I learn a lot when Iwas an instructor at the naval
school, I also, but there I wasin charge of training the
Marines and responding to thedifferent things that we had to
respond to on an aircraftcarrier.
My mom was really strained inthe fact that she had already
lost two sons in the MarineCorps.
The one brother of mine diedjust a few years, I'm sure.
So she had a long talk with meand she just said you know, I

(04:42):
don't want to lose another one.
So I went ahead and jumped outof the Marine Corps and I always
wanted to be a cop.
I had been testing for it as Iwas getting out of the Marine
Corps and I was doing prettywell, except for I couldn't make
the dates of the academies dueto my enlistment.
Then, when I got out of my, whenI got on the Marine Corps, I

(05:03):
went home to Phoenix, arizona.
They weren't testing and, uh, Iwent back to the same job that
I was doing at a building supplyand they welcomed me back and
it was great.
Um, one day the owner of thestore came out and he kind of
put his arms on my shoulder.
He said hey, pete, let's take awalk.
And he said hey, pete, youdon't belong here, you need to
go do something.
You didn't go do all that stuffin the Marine Corps and you
haven't had the life you've hadto be here.
I want you to go.

(05:24):
So I called a buddy of minethat I was in the Marine Corps
with and I said hey, rich, whatare you doing?
And he says, hey, I got a jobin a prison.
I'm like, I want to be a cop.
And he goes well, I got a jobin a prison and they have one
north of Phoenix.
He said you ought to go checkit out.
Well, a later I started, uh, atfci phoenix, uh, december 16th

(05:44):
1990, and I thought you knowwhat I'll do this, just long
enough to start testing againfor police agencies.
And uh, I think you know youhave to correct me, mike I
believe it was a two-weekacademy, the institutional
familiarization.
It might have been three weekat the time.
It was a very short period oftime.
And then you went inside thefacility and you worked, and

(06:04):
then you, you, eventually.
So I started in December,finished my institutional
familiarization early January,but I didn't go to Glencoe to
receive certification as acorrectional officer until later
on, towards the end of February, right, right.
And those first days wererather formative for me because
I'm thinking you're going into asystem that's going to be just

(06:26):
like the military.
I'm going to walk in, they'regoing to see me as a sergeant
from the Marine Corps.
Well, I wasn't like that at all.
No, yeah, so I got to work.
Luckily I was around otherpeople who had a ton of time in
the BOP or they had alreadytransitioned there also, for

(06:46):
example, within a few years, andso they kind of took me
underneath their wing and wereshowing me hey do this, hey do
that.
I made some of the proverbialearly mistakes along the way of
learning as you go and all that.
But then this is kind of wherethings started taking a change
for me.
During that first year therewas an intention for me to go on
the special operations responseteam because of my marine corps

(07:07):
background and I was walkingover to the camp to count one
day and I saw a group of peopledressed in blue and and they
were um at the training area andI said, what do they do?
And they said, oh, that's allright, our disturbance control
team, bct.
I said, well, what do they do?
And they said, well, into riotsand stuff.
And I went, you have a lot ofriots.
And they said, well, we've hadriots in the past and they're

(07:28):
our primary team to go in.
And I go, I want to buy thatapple.
I want to do that, I guessbecause I'd already satisfied
myself, you know, with what Ihad done in the Marine Corps,
especially on the Nimitz.
That's what we did, yeah, so,anyhow.
So the captain, the, the captainat the time, craig chalmers, he
called me and he's like bigmistake.

(07:49):
Big mistake, you know, if youwant to have a career you need
to stick in this specialoperational response.
He said, yeah, but I think Ican make a difference over there
.
So he goes I tell you what I'mgonna do.
I'm gonna send you toinstructor school and you're
gonna come back and you're gonnahave to prove yourself.
In a nutshell.
So they sent me to DCTInstructor School right after I
had a year in Right and I cameback and I started kind of

(08:13):
injecting what I had learned asan instructor at Field Medical
Service School and I was prettygood at keeping documentation at
the time because of myexperience when I was on Marine
Detachment running the trainingthere and it just kind of
started to click.
So I worked there, met my wifeshe worked at the prison too.
We had our first child andpeople were encouraging both of

(08:35):
us to move because it's fasterto promote if you move, to move
to another facility and promote.
I promoted to GS9 Lieutenant,first level Lieutenant at
coleman coleman low, and my wifewas.

Speaker 1 (08:47):
I'm sorry, let me back you up just a minute
because I want to.
I want to break down a coupleof things that you talked about.
One was how you viewed thattraining that you got when you
were in the marines over therein the medical unit and you were
teaching and you said that wasformative for you.
And then the training that yougot as a DCT instructor, which
would have been your first majorBOP training.

(09:09):
Tell me what it was that youlearned in the Marines there
that you saw about training thatmade you want to train.

Speaker 2 (09:16):
You know, the field medical service school was a
situation where I came in withno combat experience but the
Navy instructors had combatexperience from Vietnam.
So I was at the beginning of myMarine Corps career.
They were towards the end oftheir Naval career and they were
corpsmen.
It was a corpsman school andthey quickly got ahold of you

(09:38):
and let you know the seriousnessof the subject matters that
you're talking about.
They let you know there's noplaying in here.
We can motivate, we canencourage, we can do all those
positive reinforcements andstuff.
However, at the end of the day,when they graduate that school
they're going to go serve in aMarine Corps unit.
Some of them went off to go doother things for the Navy.

(09:59):
A few of them even went towardsa SEAL team to do that thing.
But they let me know howserious that was and so I became
laser focused.

Speaker 1 (10:08):
They set the stage for what your training was about
at that point.
It wasn't just I'm here to gettrained, it was.
There's something at the end ofthis that I have to be prepared
for.

Speaker 2 (10:18):
Yeah, a lot of what you had was you had E1 to E9.
So you had all ranks.
It wasn't like you were takingeverybody who just got out of
boot camp of their boot camp.
You were grabbing E1 to E9.
And every class had E1 to E, atleast E8, e7.
And you really.
So.
Now you have people who arehigher ranked than you.
You're in charge of them in avery intense instructor type

(10:39):
environment.
So you had to walk that line ofenvironment.
So you had to walk that line ofI got to get my point across.
I need to respect you, but youhave to respect me because I've
got to get this point across.
That's what I mean by.
It was a formative couple ofyears because I had to grow a
lot in a short period of time.
But luckily, my fellow navalinstructors Petty Officer Kim,
petty Officer Delegati they wereso helpful to me because we had

(11:03):
many, many talks, you know,after class or before class or
on weekends, and we did a lot ofthe training was out in the
field and so we would just gokind of like drive up, you know,
in Jeep, we will hang out onthe top and we would just
discuss their experiences andthings and where I need to
change this or where I need tochange that or reconsider the
way I was looking at things.
So that kind of brought a verystrong sense when I came into

(11:28):
the agency and I was luckyenough to get that instructor
certification.
That's kind of what brought onmy intensity level with that.

Speaker 1 (11:34):
Right, right, Well, and that's something that's
needed.
I mean, we've also got to takea look at what was going on in
the 90s, late 80s, 90s.
Riots back then were a realthreat.
I don't think people think thatthey are at this time.
I think we've kind of got tolay back, although we've had a
couple of bad ones in the US,had a bunch of inmates killed in

(11:55):
North Carolina a few years back, you know.
So it still happens.

Speaker 2 (11:59):
But in the 70s into the 80s and even in the early 90
90s, a riot was a real threatinside an institution and I was
at phoenix and in phoenix, um,in 1992 some guns were smuggled
in and I, I'm very, I'm very indepth on that because, uh, I was

(12:19):
pulled off and put in the sisdepartment, a special
investigative supervisor'soffice, to assist with that
investigation.
So I read every piece of theletter, every mail, every piece
of mail.
I listened to every phone call.
I went through the property, Ihelped them build the profile of
what was going on prior to theactual incident.
How did they get the guns in?
Then I was there as we wentthrough the security, they went

(12:40):
through the security process,identifying what the failures
were to allow them to get fromoutside the fence into their
hands and in between the fenceand eventually, you know, firing
on the truck and our staffmembers, as well as the staff
members in the truck inside thefacility and stuff it was a, it
was a tough moment, you know.
it's like, wow, this is, this isa pretty real thing, absolutely
so.
At phoenix, like you're talkingabout riots, we had a prison

(13:02):
riot, um, you know, when theydid the crack law chain Right,
and we had riots all across theUnited States.
Yep Went on lockdown for a while, didn't we?
Yeah, I was walking into thefacility on a weekend day, I was
the two to ten shift and peoplewere piling out of it.
What's going on?
And off it went and the inmatessaid they took over the entire

(13:25):
prison and the staff members hadmoved into the safe haven
locations in the back of thehousing units.
When we actually had a lady whowas working in our Unicor, the
factory that made the electroniccables for the military.
She was working that weekendwith a few inmates and we
weren't able to find, theyweren't able to locate her.
So we were all out.
People are in their safe harborareas.

(13:46):
So we had to go back in and wehad a.
We utilized small shotgun teamsto go around the backs of the
units.
We extracted people from the,from the housing areas.
Then we went to the unit coreand we're able to get her and
those inmates out.
They they were protecting her.
They were making sure that ifanybody did come in they were
going to be there to protect her.
But we got them out and then,as that happened, they

(14:06):
formulated the plan to go backin and take the facility back
over, and then I was luckyenough to be drawn on the bus
teams.
You know how special thatselection is to be on the buses.
It's not just anybody.
I was lucky, I don't know andwe started transporting the
inmates out of Phoenix to otherlocations and then grabbing
their rioting inmates and movingthem around.

(14:28):
So it was, there was that riot,and of course you know there
were more riots than Iparticipated total in five
different prison riots while Iwas in the view.

Speaker 1 (14:37):
Well, that explains to me why you became such a good
emergency preparedness officerlater on.
Let's go ahead and finish.
You got promoted, you're a nine.
You're going from an FCI, yougo to Coleman.
It's a complex.

Speaker 2 (14:49):
Yeah, tell us about that.
It's a complex of a medium anda low and a can't.
Okay, it first started out in1995.
We promote there.
My wife got her promotion toISM manager and a systems
manager and I promoted to nightlieutenant at a low.
Phoenix was a pretty hot spotbecause there was only one
penitentiary in the West Coastat the time, the Western

(15:12):
Division, western Region.
So we had a lot ofclassification people there that
probably could have been pennedbut they were classified as
mediums.
And I get there and Iremembered when we first started
getting inmates because weactivated, I don't know, we only
had a couple hundred or so, andtwo they called and said hey,
lieutenant, we have two inmatesand they're not getting along up
here.
It looks like they're going tofight.
Well, I was the nine and I hadan 11 Lieutenant who probably

(15:34):
had 25 or plus years at the time.
And so you know, I'm setting upthe room, I'm hiding the
staplers, I'm hiding thestaplers, I'm hiding the two
hole punch, I'm moving the trashcans in case these guys come in
and something breaks out,because I'd seen that happen
before, sure.
And then the other way, tennislooked at me.
He goes what are you doing.
I said, hey, in case somethinghappens, I'm getting ready, he

(15:54):
goes, just sit down, watch this.
And he brought him in and hetalked to them and, before you
know it, they both cried, theyshook hands, they hug, and
that's when I had to learnthere's different ways to manage
and handle inmate situationsand stuff like that, and so,
being at that low after Phoenix,I had to learn how to manage

(16:16):
and be the person that the staffmembers could call and I would
have the reasonable mind tomanage the difficult situation.

Speaker 1 (16:24):
Yeah, that's funny, I think we all go through that.
When the difficult situation?
Yeah, that's funny, I think weall go through that.
When we make supervision yeah,so how long were you at Coleman?

Speaker 2 (16:32):
There are five years, I think after 18 months or four
or five years, after 18 monthsor so, I promoted to 11
Lieutenant shift supervisor.
And the neat thing aboutColeman too it was the
activation is nobody wanted tohave anything to do with the
disturbance control team and Iwas a nine lieutenant.
And there's a medium which waslike that time the flagship, and

(16:53):
then you had the low and thenyou had the camp right and I
said I'll do it and they'regoing.
Oh, you're just a ninelieutenant.
I said yeah, but I'm a dctinstructor.
And then there was a gentlemanby the name of Robert Stock.
I don't know if you ever raninto Robert Stock in your career
?
He stepped up and said hey, I'ma DCT instructor and I'll do it

(17:15):
with him.
And so we got together and hesaid hey, look, I want nothing
to do with the training side ofthat, but I know how to order
equipment and I know how to setup, you know inventories and I
know how to set up trainingrecords.
He goes I'll do all of that,you do the training and we'll be
a team.
And boy, did we hit it off.
Cool, you know, because now youhave.
You know, at the time I thinkthe policy requirement was for

(17:36):
FCIs had to have two 15 personteams.
So we have two FCIs, now wehave to have four.
So we started out very bigrecruitment and then we started
sizing up teams and picking ourleadership and doing this
training stuff.
And I think the same mindsetyou got, the better you make the
training, the better the peoplewill feel and the more they'll

(17:57):
stay and put into themselves,they'll invest in themselves,
which is investing in the team.
We really got it going on outthere as far as getting that up
and off.

Speaker 1 (18:07):
Well, I was out there .
What was it four years ago?
Five years ago taught somepepper ball and they still have
a great DCT team very engaged.
We had a great time out there.
So you set the stage.

Speaker 2 (18:22):
Can I kind of go into the kind of way.
I think there's a reason forthat.
So during that time frame I gotsent to Artesia, new Mexico,
which was one of our federal lawenforcement training grounds.
I got sent out there for aclass on OC and less lethal
impact munitions.
It's a two-week course.
So when we arrived, we werewondering what's going to take
two weeks to learn this stuff.

(18:42):
Well, the instructor, who's nowa lifelong friend of mine, he
comes into the class and hestarts it in a way I've never
seen before.
And we're going through thetraining and what he did was he
taught it to you how to utilizethese things tactically.
And he started with your can ofOC is empty.
You've sprayed it, all theeffects are not taking place.

(19:04):
So what do you do when you havean empty can in your hand?
And we're like so we startedout with ground fighting, right,
and we're like how is this?
So he took it from the ground tostanding up to spraying five
feet, 10 feet, whatever yourdispensers distances were, and
then on the excuse me, and thenon the impact munitions, he
taught it to us as far as how doyou tactically deploy them, and
one of the things he focused onwas too many times people want

(19:28):
a munition that will go withtheir tactics.
What you need to do is developtactics based upon your
munitions, and it was allrevolutionary because at that
time, oc was not present in theBureau of Prisons and they were
looking at trying to bring itmore and more online.
And this is going to play outlater on in my career.
So I make friends with this guy.
It turns out I'm in Florida,he's in Florida and he says I

(19:51):
tell you what I'll do.
His name is Dave Young and hesays I tell you what I'll do,
pete.
He goes I always need someonewho I can beat up on when I do
my lot, and then, when I need touse somebody for a
demonstration, I'll pull you in,but you're going to learn the
things that you're asking me toteach you, but you won't have to

(20:11):
be going through the classes.
I couldn't afford the classes,so that's what I did.
He'd say, hey, pete, I got thisclass and so if I could take
the time off I'd run out there Isleep.
You know, he let me go sleep inhis room in the hotel, either
on the couch, the floor,whatever Right.
And I was his assistantinstructor and I learned all
these things about less lethalsthat weren't really widely known

(20:32):
at the time.
Now everybody knows them, youknow, that's a neat thing.
Now everybody knows them Sure,and so that kind of gave me an
edge.
Well, do you remember when theBureau came out with an armed
DCT in the Correctional ServicesManual?
I'm taking all this stuff thatI'm learning and nobody was
really paying attention to usout there training, but I had
actually six teams.

(20:53):
I'm out there practicing this.
I started developing a shotgunsquad, so to speak.
We utilized A-70, Remingtonshotguns, L-8s and shields.
I'm using these techniques thatI was taught and I'm trying to
apply Bureau of Prisons policies.
And we had a change in complexwardens.
And if I'm going into way toomuch detail, just let me know,

(21:13):
absolutely, I'm fascinated.
We had a change in complexwardens and Tony Stepp I don't
know if he worked for Tony.

Speaker 1 (21:20):
I remember the name, yeah.

Speaker 2 (21:21):
Icon from the 70s, 80s, 90s, early 2000s.
He happened to become thecomplex warden.
Well, complex warden is incharge of the budget, the money,
and I just knew that if I couldget the right kind of equipment
I could keep moving forwardwith my little idea out here.
So I go to him and he calls meover and he says you know, what
do you need?
Why are we buying this and whyare we buying this and why are

(21:46):
we buying that?
And I said, well, sir, I gotthis idea and I started
explaining it to him and he sitsback a little bit.
He goes do you know who I am?
And I'm like yes, sir, we didsome work on the witsack unit
when I was at phoenix.
Also, I went to the los angelescity riots and he was in charge
of those.
And so, okay, I was exposed tohim at the los angeles city
riots with rodney king and hegoes.
Well, I'm actually on anadvisory committee or something
like that, a work group, becausethe RMDCT is not popular

(22:10):
because it's putting lethalrounds into a riot control team
where we already have a lethalteam, and I went.
Well, I'm learning all thisstuff about these impact
munitions and he goes.
Well, next time you have atraining, let me see what you're
up to.
So he came out to a training andhe saw what we were doing and I

(22:31):
at that time I had pretty mucha mastery knowledge of of the
munitions and the deploymentsand the tactics to utilize them
for the maximum effects andthings.
So I was able to make it, youknow, look really, really good
in front of him and he, uh, hetold me he said, okay, do you
have this written yet?
I went, nah, it's kind of likeall up in here.
He said, okay, he guided me.
This is important because lateron, with the wrap at the top,
he guided me on what you have todo is you have to take the

(22:52):
policies of your agency and takethose and inject what you're
trying to do into them.
We worked on that for a coupleof years.
We made short video clips andthings I would write like I
would believe would be a manual,and then he would come along
and say, hey, change this,change that.
I want to pull this out.
I want to add that I don't likethat tactic, I like this tactic

(23:13):
, I don't like these commands, Ilike those commands.
And so we worked really closely.
However, as fate would have it,he was selected to be the
warden at usp marion.

Speaker 1 (23:24):
Okay, okay, and that's what starts my trajectory
to go over there yeah, that wasquite a jump from uh fci
coleman to uh usp marion.
What year is this?

Speaker 2 (23:37):
that was uh 2000 okay yeah, that's uh, that's uh.

Speaker 1 (23:42):
The ADX hadn't been built yet in 2000,.
Right?

Speaker 2 (23:47):
I think it might've been built, but we were still.
We had our batch of the of thattop tier yeah.

Speaker 1 (23:56):
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (23:57):
And it was a jump, cause I'm coming from.
I could just told you wherethey hug it out and shake it,
take hands and swear they'llnever talk, mean to each other
again.
You know, Marion, Marion is aninstitution where they've had
they had three tragic murders ofstaff members and two staff
members were murdered in thesame day and the staff members
who were there if they weren'tthere in 1983, when that

(24:19):
happened, they knew they werecarrying the baton for those
staff members.
They knew they were carryingthe baton for those staff
members.
And so when you got there, theydidn't disrespect you, but you
had to earn the respect and showthat you were there for the
right reasons.
And only until you prove thatwould they embrace you with
caution, because you came in asa leader and they knew that you

(24:51):
had to believe that you werethere to safeguard not only them
but the BOP, because that'swhere the top tier of bad guys
were at.
Unlike the ADX, it still hadthe open bar concept.
It still had the old lockswhere you had to select the
doors and pull the levers.
It wasn't push button and stufflike that.
You didn't have sally ports atevery cell to protect you from
when they came out of the cellto a cuff port.
It was you're right there withthem.
So if they didn't like you,things came flying your way.

(25:11):
And that was brought to me oneof my first nights there.
They called me down tosegregation and said they had a
guy who was a little upset.
Can you come talk to him?
I get there and I'm like what'sgoing on?
I said so he's down that wayand I had like cell 17 of 18.
So I walked past all these openbars to get down to the cell
and there was a guy and he was.

(25:31):
I had seen rage before, but notlike this.
And when he threw his radio atme and it was a good size, it
was a wood box radio and thatthing disintegrated and just
came flying by me and he let meknow that he was going to kill
me.
There was no doubt whatsoeverin my mind.
He could make that happen rightthere.
Yeah, no-transcript.

Speaker 1 (25:52):
Yeah, it's a.
I talked in a class last weekabout this.
It was some newer officers.
It's one thing to get on afight in the square Like you
talked about when you were young, you know that was what I
thought violence was until Iwalked into Missouri state, Penn
or Leavenworth.
And when somebody comes at youand has the desire to kill you,
hurt you, maim you, whatever,that's a whole different level

(26:13):
of violence and it's hard toprocess.
The first time you don't.
I don't think most humans areready for that, unless you're
raised up in certainenvironments, and I wasn't.

Speaker 2 (26:23):
Yeah, you know, and I'm sure for you is the same as
we move up in our career, whenit when it's happening around
you and you're an officer and mythis is just my opinion there's
other people who handle thingstotally differently or it's a
different experience for them.
When you're handling it as anofficer, it's like you're in the
now and you're doing this andyou're doing that.
And I think when I became thesupervisor at Marion, the

(26:43):
responsibility of being theleader really started hitting,
because it was yourresponsibility to make sure
everybody went home safe.
So your words mean more, youractions mean more, how you
handle things mean more.
You have to identify when maybethings are becoming more
emotional driven than not andyou have to make a lot of

(27:03):
choices that maybe at the momentmight not seem popular, but
you're there to protecteverybody.
So your head has to stay calm.
So, like you're talking about,you know, like the
discombobulation of your brainwhen these events are taking
place.
Now you've got to.
You have to focus on gettingclear minded in those situations
, because it's yourresponsibility to manage that.

Speaker 1 (27:23):
And it's not easy.
It's just not easy.
It was easy for me to run in asthe first person in a cell on
cell use force teams that was.
That took nothing and, matterof fact, we used to kind of
fight each other to get thatnumber one slot.
But when you have to step backand stand outside the door and
send five people in, it's awhole different world.
It's no longer about whether ornot I'll get hurt, it's about

(27:43):
whether or not they'll get hurt.
Have I done what I'm supposedto?
Have I prepared?
Have I made the phone calls?
All that stuff goes through mymind and it's much tougher to
lead people than it is to be thefirst person in line.

Speaker 2 (27:56):
Yeah, and it takes a while to get used to that
because, like you, I'm sureyou're standing there, you're
looking and you're actuallydoing a physical or, excuse me,
an equipment check, checkingthem.
You're this, you're that,you're checking documentation,
like you said, you're makingsure medical has been involved.
You're dotting all those I'sacross, all those T's.

Speaker 1 (28:16):
At the end, of safety falls on you.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely so.
You're at Marion, you'regetting adjusted there, but are
your DCT, your DCT, lead?

Speaker 2 (28:21):
there.
Okay, yeah.
And so what happens is wardenstep goes there and then me and
my wife show up.
She promoted to a 13 ISMmanager.
I lateraled over as justsupervisor at GS 11 Lieutenant
and yeah, he was kind of like,hey, look, the reason why I need
you here, one you're going toget, you're finally going to get
the credibility you need to sayto prove all these things that

(28:41):
you say you can do Right.
And he said uh, but also at thatfacility the staff member still
carried the 36, uh, excuse me,the 30 inch riot baton as
standard gear, daily equipment,and he said I want to start
mixing in OC.
Oc is becoming more popular touse.
I want to begin using OC and Iwant to begin using those
specialty impact munitions.

(29:01):
So those tactics and thingsthat you're talking about on a
squad level, I need you todevelop that for an immediate
response type, immediateresponse in the prison, and so
you know how to get to know theinfrastructure, how things work.
Figure out the distances sothat you know how to get to know
the infrastructure, how thingswork.
Figure out the distances sothat you know what munitions
would be effective.
Or how do you have to changethe way you deploy the munition

(29:22):
based upon distances?
I actually know.
So I spent some time studyingall that, but it was a pretty
active place and uh, he kind ofcame to me and said, hey, we
need to get this going faster.
So I want you to begin trainingyour fellowship supervisors in
how to deploy these things.
And, uh, because you know, weactually you know, at that time
we still had the 37 millimetersingle launcher that had the
beam batter brown.

(29:42):
We had the multi launchers, butthey really weren't used that
often because the single shotseemed to be the way to go.
And so we replaced the singleshot beam bag and we put in the
l8 and we began putting in thenew, the newer versions of the
specialty impact munitions.
And, um, you know the way itwent.

Speaker 1 (30:02):
Right, I don't.
And for the people who may belistening that don't understand
how things work, that's not afirst line, that is way down the
line when you have an incident.
We've already talked to thisperson.
We've given this inmatemultiple chances.
We've had possibly other staffcome in, do confrontation
avoidance.
We've done everything they cando.
But, like we talked about awhile ago as that leader of that

(30:25):
team, now you're thinking staffsafety and the things that
you're talking about are thattactical de-escalation, verbal
de-escalation didn't work, sonow I'm going to use the
opportunity of having lesslethal to tactically de-escalate
, get them to come up there andcuff up without me having to
open a door and everybody getinvolved in the violence of

(30:46):
person on person.
I could possibly get them toback up, and especially at a
place like Marion, that had tohave been just.
I mean, it was kind of new then, wasn't it?
It was very new.

Speaker 2 (30:59):
Yeah, and so we became one.
We had Warden Stepp, eventuallyWarden Randy Davis and others,
and so they really they requiredus.
But we wanted to be a part ofthat group.
That made it better, because ifwe felt if we could do that at
Marion, then the rest of theagency might be able to take
these tactics, develop itspecific to their facilities and

(31:19):
then they would be safer.
You know, just like you said, itwas one of those things where
you know it wasn't what youwanted to do and you only did it
when you absolutely had to.
But there were many, many stepsthat took place, you know,
before, like you said, thede-escalation, the confrontation
avoidance, the trying to getthings to calm down.
Hopefully their adrenaline isgoing to dump and they're not
going to be as excited by thetime that you get there.
There's all those tacticalthings that you do off the side

(31:41):
to deescalate that situation andthen when you show up with it,
you're still trying to say,please, don't do this, please, I
don't want to do this, youdon't want to do this, let's not
to restore order, gain physicalcontrol of someone who's either
harming themselves or harmingothers.
You know, unfortunately you dohave to deploy those, and the
thing to do is deploy it safelyand humanely.

Speaker 1 (32:01):
Right, and one of my biggest struggles and I'm sure
you can talk to this also was Ikept running across people who
would rather send five guys in acell and get them hurt because
they didn't understand thepolicy for less lethal.
They didn't understand how weused it, they hadn't studied it
to understand.
Like you were talking aboutdistances and impacts and you

(32:21):
know we need to know the footpounds of energy that we're
expending at what distances.
These are things that make theuse of those safe.
But I ran across in my career,supervisor after supervisor and
I'm talking more administrativewho were scared of using those
less lethal.
So that's when I started.
Running into you is why you wereat Marion and I'd see your

(32:42):
stuff come through.
I saw the videos that you putout with shotgun squads and I
was fascinated.
I appreciate it, yeah, that wewere doing that stuff, but it
wasn't where I was at, you know,the Federal Medical Center for
in Springfield.
They were like, oh no, well, Ican't use that on a.
I can't use that on a guythat's got one leg.
Well, show me where I can't ifhe's at a certain level of
violence.
And I'm protecting staff, youknow.

(33:04):
But it's about policy, it'sabout knowing your, your, your,
your munitions.

Speaker 2 (33:10):
Right, absolutely, and that's what it came down to.
And also you know what carriedme.
And that's what it came down to.
And also you know what carriedme I learned at Marion and it
carried me forward later on.
For my mindset and how I managethese things was if you did it
properly following policy andyou didn't try to do any victory
laps in front of inmates andstuff like that, they gained
respect for you and many timesthat deescalated the situation

(33:33):
because you would just walk upand say you know where we're
going, I don't want to go there,but you're taking us there.
I just assume you take ussomewhere else.
I just assume you know.
And after a while they thinkabout it, the adrenaline starts
to calm down.
It resolved many situationsbecause of the proper use before
.
Many situations were resolvedlater on and so I'm very proud
of that.

(33:56):
And, like all that stuff that Itook there, I learned from dave
young and and so I took thatshotgun squad, enhanced this dct
.
I took that and just made it alittle team and uh, so then we
started gaining our traction asfar as hey, maybe this enhanced
dct that's the name they wantedto give it I had something else.
I had alert and I I forget theacronyms now Advanced Less

(34:17):
Lethal Emergency Response Teamor something like that, but they
wanted to be called that.
That gave us the ability tomove forward to where it was
actually presented to thedirector and then to Glencoe and
then a gentleman by the name ofDoug Wambacher I'm not sure if
you ever worked with Ron Doug.
Didn't work with him, but Iknow the name.
Yeah, he got involved becausehe was in emergency preparedness

(34:39):
I think at the time, and hesort of paved the way for us to
finish it off and get theenhanced DCT approved and a part
of the Correctional Services.

Speaker 1 (34:50):
Management.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Dct.
It's interesting because everyexcuse me just a second, my
computer just went.
Okay, I'll cut that part outDCT has always interested me
because, yes, there's some veryspecific times that we might use

(35:10):
a special operations team, butDCT is is needed at every
institution almost.
Whether you're using it for afive-man use of force, whether
you're using it for a largedisturbance, it doesn't have to
be a riot large disturbance.
Those tactics work there and inthe Bureau of Prisons they do
believe in it because everybodytakes four hours of disturbance

(35:31):
control training each year.
So let me ask you a little bitabout that.
Being a DCT instructor Cause Igot a lot of pushback when I
went to uh, and I don't mindnaming them Springfield.
Um, when I went fromLeavenworth to Springfield and
started teaching disturbancecontrol, it was like Whoa, we're
supposed to go to lunch early,why are we dressing out and
doing all this stuff?
And when you come from aninstitution that's at a higher

(35:53):
security level, you understandwhy everybody needs to know a
little bit of this.
But sometimes at the lowersecurity levels there's some
pushback.
But how important is that?
Four hours for everybody toknow on disturbance control.

Speaker 2 (36:07):
I think in that aspect the Bureau's got it right
, Because what the Bureau doesis they take, like I said, if
the FCI is supposed to have two15-person teams and so on, it
takes that cadre of 30, 37, 38,whatever the number is going to
be for those two teams, and itgives them a team that trains on
a regular basis and hasstandards of training they have
to meet.
So my assessment is you'recreating small groups of subject

(36:30):
matter experts.
Then they take that time in anannual refresher training to
build those people to have alarger team Going back to
Phoenix.
Okay, it wasn't just the SORTteam and just the DCT team that
went in to reclaim FCI Phoenix.
It was every employee who showedup, and their basic

(36:52):
understanding was what they hadlearned in that four hours.
Then you tag them onto a personlike you or like me who's got
additional training.
One, they feel better becausethey know that we, in their
oppression, we know what we'redoing.
And two, they feel like theycan go along with us because
we're going to take care of them.
And so that's why we reenteredPhoenix with the way that we did
.
That's how we reclaimed it.
We didn't reclaim it with justthose two specialized groups way

(37:14):
that we did.
That's how we reclaimed it.
We didn't reclaim it with justthose two specialized groups, we
reclaimed it with the entirefacility.
And that's because the Bureauof Prisons ensured that every
year you had four hours of it.
And if it was an effective fourhours of training, then you had
people that were willing toattach onto a team and go into
those troubled areas ifnecessary.

Speaker 1 (37:29):
Yeah, absolutely so you spend your time at Marion.
What's your next step?
So you spend your time atMarion.

Speaker 2 (37:36):
What's your next step ?
Well, life changed in Marion.
Okay.
My wife was diagnosed withmultiple sclerosis about 2003,
and they really worked with usto try to get an understanding
of where our life was headed.
So in 2004, she had to make thedecision and we made the
decision as a family for her toretire medically so she could

(37:56):
spend what appeared to be herlast year's walking with our
kids and taking them to schooland spending that time with them
.
I moved into a position that wasnewer at the Bureau, then
called Emergency PreparednessOfficer.
I did all that kind ofemergency preparedness stuff for
Marion as well as Greenville.
I spent three years doing that.
They told me it was only forlong enough for us to get our

(38:18):
life together.
And Randy Davis showed up asthe warden and he pulled me in
and he said and he was the onewho really was pushing, trying
to help support me and Karen asbest that we could he pulled me
in and he just said, hey, timeto go.
He said this wasn't a permanentthing and you're doing a great
job, but you need to figuresomething else out.
And so I was applying fordifferent positions and I made

(38:39):
captain the charge of thesecurity department at USP
Allenwood.

Speaker 1 (38:44):
Okay, what's going on at Allenwood at that moment?

Speaker 2 (38:49):
Well, you know, lewisburg is just south of that
place, so it's a penitentiarytown, and so when I got there
two facilities, you know,they've worked very well
together, uh, kind of ahand-in-hand type thing.
And so lewisburg, and so thatwhole environment was there.
The penitentiary environment,wood, was a place that was

(39:09):
really not much on the radar butthey ran it so well.
And I was fortunate that when Igot there, the wardens that I
had, especially as a captain,you know, his name was Ricardo
Martinez.
He would walk me around thefacility every Thursday and he
would just it was just me andhim Nice, and he'd say hey,
captain, tell me, what do yousee?
And I'm like I see a couple ofguys playing basketball.
He goes no, no, what you see is, and he would explain to me, or

(39:31):
he would explain to me hisconcepts on on lockdowns, on
inmate discipline.
So I really had this was aformative time for me because I
really had this opportunity tospend it with somebody who just
knew how to read the tea leafand he uh took me down that
trail.
It was a complex.
So, you know, you're havingyour facility meetings, but your

(39:52):
facility also has to be able towork with the other two
facilities, a medium and a low,and then you also have your
fellow facility just a few milessouth of Lewisburg.
And so you know, there was alot of good communication, a lot
of coordination and justfantastic staff.
You know, fantastic staff.
I met some of the people Istill stay in touch with today.
I met, you know, at Allenwoodand I just they were such

(40:14):
professionals and I learned alot of great things.
But you know, it was a troubledfacility.
As far as you know, it's apenitentiary and so sometimes
penitentiary things happen andyou know extreme types of
violence and things like that.
But you know, that's where thatmanagement and learning,
management of the facility cameso important to me.

Speaker 1 (40:32):
It's interesting that you mentioned that about the
warden warden to me.
Yeah, it's interesting that youmentioned that about the warden
.
In my opinion, excuse me, thatwarden and captain relationship
is probably the most importantto any institution.
If those two have to be able towork together because you got
the chief of security and yougot the overall administrator,
which is the warden, and for youto have that kind of
relationship and be able to talkthat openly, that's pretty cool

(40:54):
.
That's pretty cool.

Speaker 2 (40:56):
Yeah, I had some really good assistant wardens.
Frank laura was one of myassistant wardens and you know
he he spent a lot of timetalking to me too.
He was a fellow marine, so wekind of, you know, cut the cut
the ice with that, uh, and hewas a great.
He had a lot of really greatinformation, great ways of
looking at things.
He kind of taught me to grow upa little bit.
I didn't have, and I regretthis and I regret my first year

(41:21):
as a captain at the facilitybecause I was never a 12 captain
.
I went from 12 EPO to 13.

Speaker 1 (41:30):
And that 12 step's important because you learn
office management with the sideissues of inmate management,
which is some of the hardestthings with going from a custody
supervisor up to captain.
You don't realize you'regetting into all this
administrative stuff, or Ididn't.

Speaker 2 (41:47):
Nobody warned me but that 12 is important because you
learn it and then when youbecome 13, you're more managing
inmate population behaviors andyour side gig is the because you
have a clerk and things.
So I jumped into it that firstyear without having that first
year background I didn't do thefacility as well as I should
have.
There were some errors thatcame up later on with my

(42:09):
administrative duties and Iregret that, learned a lot but
luckily it's a strong team.
I had great lieutenants, I hada great clerk I mean just had
great people around me, goodleadership.
So we climbed out of that andmy last two years there were all
about learning.
You know the high levelmanagement of a facility at a
complex level also.

Speaker 1 (42:28):
Yeah, Allen Wood for three years.
Yep, three years, and thenyou're going to finish up at
Florence.

Speaker 2 (42:35):
Yep, didn't realize I had put in for assistant warden
and I got a call saying, hey,congratulations, you're an AW at
USP Florence.
I'm like, nope, not me.
I have no ideas of going backwest.
I was kind of like in the eastcoast, that area, and they said,
well, we'll see you.
And I ended up.
So I went to Florence a greatassignment, went to the
penitentiary, had an opportunityto, you know, learn at that

(42:58):
level.
It's the sort of at that timekind of the flagship complex of
the Bureau.
At that time you had the ADX,you had the penitentiary, you
had the medium and a camp.
So the wardens and people thatwere there were, you know, they
were at the peak of theirperformance.
They were at the peak of theirknowledge levels.
So you know I'm able to bearound them.
I'm at one amongst six AWs andthe other five were awesome,

(43:22):
good at their jobs.
They were either been there fora while and were good at an AW
or liked me learning and just,you know, eyes wide open.
It was a great experience forme to be at Florence.
I was at the Penn for about ayear and then they asked me if I
would go over to the medium.
They had some issues going onwith some different STG groups,
some transitions were going onwith the executive staff that

(43:42):
were there hopped on over thereand you know that's really the
assignment that gave me requiredme to focus on programming.

Speaker 1 (43:54):
So how was that shift ?

Speaker 2 (43:56):
Well, a long time ago , when I was a captain, I made
some decisions and Mr Martinezthis is the word Martinez
decided to walk me around andexplain to me why I made a bad
decision.
And can I?
Can I say it?
Sure, so we're walking one dayand he says uh.
He says hey, let me ask youwhat's going on with education.
I'm like I don't know.
He goes.

(44:18):
Well, ask you what's going onwith education, I'm like I don't
know.
He goes.
Well, you should know, becausethey've been putting in requests
for you to change some movetimes and things.
And you said no, my answer.
And he started.
He had a laugh.
He had a certain laugh and whenhe had that laugh I was like
this is gonna be where I learned.
He laughed and he said can Itell you something, captain?
I said sure he goes.
You are one spoke on my wheel.
Sometimes, because you'resecurity, you're the strongest

(44:42):
and biggest spoke on my wheel,but there are other times when
you're not and I need you torecognize when you're not.
Right now, education is thebiggest spoke on my wheel and
you need to figure out how youcan strengthen that spoke.
I got another example, if youdon't mind.
No, absolutely.
I want to hear from you.
This is that first year.
This is that first year I'mtalking about.

(45:02):
First year.
Captain.
I go in and I wasn't gettingthings fixed in the facility at
the pace that I wanted them tobe fixed, so I got some advice.
Then what you do as the captainis you pull your tool room
officer Because you know in theBureau, in order to go to lunch
and stuff, they have to returntheir tools, account for the
tools and then they clear themfor lunch.
Then they come back, they workand they clear them to leave for

(45:25):
the day for the count.
Well, if the tool room officerwasn't available, I guess they
really didn't get to clearthings.
It was a a thing that I was amanagement tool that I was told
I should use and I implementedthat tool and the sally port,
the back sally port, the reargate went down and we were
having to crank it with thehandles and uh, so into the
maintenance guy and he's a goodman, and I said, hey, uh, kind

(45:49):
of need this fixed.
He said, okay, I'll get righton that.
One day goes by, two days go by, I'm out there cranking the
handle, everybody and I wentback to see him.
I'm like, hey, I really need toget that fixed.
He's like, yep, yep, we'regoing to get on that.
Thursday comes around.
I'm having lunch with WardMartinez.
He says, hey, let's go for awalk.

(46:10):
I having to go out to the Sallyport and crank on that handle.
I go yeah, you know, I reallywish maintenance would go out
there or facilities would go outthere and fix it.
He goes maybe if they had atool room officer they'd be able
to take care of things for you.
And that's another one he gaveme those the information of
remember, captain, you don'thave security unless he gives it
to you.

(46:30):
So you need to go, give himwhat he needs so he can give you
security.
I went over, realized I hadmade a humongous mistake.
I went over and talked with themaintenance guy that fixed the
gate right there on the spot,you know, and lesson learned we
learned a lot of the samelessons.

Speaker 1 (46:48):
I did the same thing.
You come up through custody,your world is security, you
don't think about anybody else.
I learned a little bit when Iwent to Springfield, because
it's such a medical facility, soyou had to learn how to work
with psychology and you had tolearn how to work with medical,
but I think it was AW DianeSmith.
When I left Springfield shesaid remember, you're

(47:08):
everybody's captain, and I hadnever thought about that before.
You're a lieutenant, you justhave to worry about custody.
Yeah, when you're a captain,everybody looks to you at some
point and yeah, it's a juggle.

Speaker 2 (47:23):
You have to learn how to juggle a little.
You don't need to become thenemesis, yeah.

Speaker 1 (47:28):
Yeah, and I did the same thing.

Speaker 2 (47:30):
Yeah, and that's what I mean by that.
First year was a proving groundof me growing up and realizing
that had I been a 12, I probablywould have got that earlier and
got over it faster.
But that's the way the carswere dealt when I played them
and I was lucky I learned.

Speaker 1 (47:43):
Yeah, the other thing I had to learn my first year,
dennis Treadway was my 13.
I came in Thompson as a deputyand I didn't believe in dress
down days.
I didn't believe in all thatstuff that we do.
You know, as a Lieutenant, asan officer, I'm there to work,
I'm there to get that job done,keep everybody safe.
And so I didn't show up for allthese little, you know,

(48:04):
different little parties orwhatever they had.
Dennis was the one that came byand talked to me and he said
you know you're excludingyourself from everybody.
He said they need you there,you need to be a part of this.
And it was something else I hadto learn because it just wasn't
comfortable for me.

Speaker 2 (48:18):
I was so security minded but yeah, yeah, growing
pains, you know, but they're soimportant because that
engagement is what gives thestaff confidence to approach you
when they have a problem.
Yeah, you know.

Speaker 1 (48:30):
I had to learn it.

Speaker 2 (48:31):
I had to learn that I had to be that person that they
felt they could approach.

Speaker 1 (48:35):
Yeah, learn it.
I had to learn that.
I had to be that person thatthey felt they could approach.
Yeah, perfect.
So I know you got the shotgunsquads you were doing less
lethal.
So when you went to florence orwas it marion, because I know
you got big into the right therapid rotation baton that was a
new tool that came out yeah.

Speaker 2 (48:52):
So through dave young , back in 95 when I met him in
artesia.
I was with him for years.
He introduced me to a gentlemanwho had invented the rapid
rotation baton.
And the rapid rotation batonwas interesting to me because of
all the different ways that youcan utilize it.
And then when you actuallystudy the science behind it,
it's there to.

(49:12):
It's not to say other batonsare bad, it's to say it's trying
to strengthen the things thatare their weaknesses, okay.
And so I became a mastertrainer for rapid rotation baton
, rrb systems and, uh, samething.
I'd take time off, I'd go runoff to a class teach stuff,
learn how to teach stuff.
I spent a lot of time with roybedard, dave young and we they
were, we're learning how to usethis thing up and downstairs, in

(49:35):
the water, in the water allkinds of stuff, yeah,
interesting stuff.
So Randy Davis was warden atMarion.
Mike Nally was in as theregional director and they
called me and he said hey,where's that funny little stick
you got?
Not at all, it's in my desk.
I worked outside the facility,it's in my desk.
He goes go get that thing, Iwant to show it to Mr Nally.

(49:56):
So I go in there and I startwhipping this thing around and
showing him how you know whereto, how do you wear it?
Why does it warn that way?
What are the techniques thatyou utilize to communicate?
Now you have it out, how youuse it close, how you use it far
away, mr, analogy just goes.
I like that.
Let's do a pilot program.
I didn't know what that wasright.

(50:16):
Well, I learned fast.
So he hooked me up with thegentleman by the name of lewis
eichenlaub and he was intechnology, up in corporate
office, and he he had had therapid baton for a couple years.
I forget where he got it, butit was sitting in his office and
I and so while he connected meto lewis eichenlaub, who then he
taught me how to run a pilotprogram.
Ok, so Dave Young, roy Bedard,they all came to Marion and they

(50:39):
certified a group of people asinstructors and then they taught
us, they made sure that wetaught basic user courses to get
people trained in the baton,and then, after it was approved
by the director, we beganputting it on specific posts
within the facility and thatkind of grew as it on specific
posts within the facility andthen that kind of grew as it was
a six month pilot program.
As that pilot program went on,every week I had to send in data

(51:01):
on what posts were used on orwhat posts wore it, what was it
ever used?
If it was used, what were thetechniques?
What was the circumstances?
Was it close contact, was itdistant?
What was it?
Escort techniques, controltechniques?
And so we did it for six months.
Then they had an exec meetingand they flew me to the exec
meeting.
It was funny because I land,get there, you know, put your

(51:24):
baton on, come in here, did ademonstration for Mr Lappin and
all the regional directors andeverybody else that was at the
exec meeting.
Okay, go, I walk out, mr Nallywalks out.
Great job, get to your airplane, got on an airplane, flew out.
Then they voted to go ahead andapprove its use and expand its
presence in the bureau and itwent to USPs.

(51:45):
It went to ADX, marion, uspsand MDCs, mdcs and MCCs.
Yep.

Speaker 1 (51:55):
Because it was a shorter baton.
That's why they put it in thedetention centers right.
Because it was shorter, it wasfor the outside patrol.

Speaker 2 (52:03):
Okay.
Okay, you know how they havethe officer who walks around on
the outside, or at least theydid.
I don't know if they still doand so it was for the outside
patrol officer, so that they hada baton.
Because they carried a baton,it was the PR-24.
So what they did was they keptthe PR-24 and the RRB, the
facility, could make a decisionon which one they were going to
utilize.
So they sent me around.

(52:23):
It was kind of neat.
I was an emergency preparednessofficer, slash lieutenant, and
so they would call me and sayhey, they want to know if you
can go teach.
I went to Springfield hey, wewant to know if you can go teach
a class on enhanced DCT andrapid baton at Springfield.
Can you go here, can you gothere?
So I drove around like six,eight facilities and I developed
instructors and so I wouldteach a class, a 24 hour

(52:45):
training course for instructors.
I worked with RRB systems tocertify them with the company,
and then they were able to teachthe basic user course at their
facilities.
And then you know, I mean, it'snot rocket science.
But then you know, how do youput them on your inventories,
how do you store them?
That type of stuff.
You know what shadows do theygo on?
And so I was involved in thatand it was interesting because,

(53:11):
you know, as time went on, Imean I got this thing going
around like eight facilities.
In fact, when I was at Allynwoodthey asked me to go down and
help Lewisburg when they turnedit into a SMU special management
unit because they had anextreme amount of violence.
So I went down and they werebetween captains and so I went

(53:32):
down there and I worked with anAW who was phenomenal.
Chuck Mariana and WardenBledsoe at the time told the two
of us you got to get thisfacility in order, there's just
too much violence.
And so we came up with thisplan and but luckily the staff
staff did it.
We were there to keep him inthe guardrails.
The staff did it, but they hadme implement the rapid rotation

(53:52):
baton there and that was thetoughest crowd.
Yeah, that was the toughestcrowd.

Speaker 1 (53:58):
Lewisburg is a tough crowd they're tough people.

Speaker 2 (54:02):
Yeah, it's a tough place, but I won them over what
it was.
It was realistic.
You didn't, I didn't floweranything up, it was here it is.
This is what it's supposed todo.
Let's see if it does it.
So, yeah, so after that and Imove I'm I believe I'm at
Florence they send me to Glencoe.
A gentleman takes over up incorporate, up in the corporate
office, I'm sorry, up in thecentral office, central office,

(54:25):
keep calling it corporate, youknow over emergency preparedness
.
He was a professional servicesadministrator and I he said you
know, hey, pete, what do youwant to do?
I hey, pete, what do you wantto do?
I said we need an RRB manualfor the agency because we don't
have one.
And so he put together me, rickHarns, another gentleman, and
we went out to Glencoe and wewrote this manual and it was

(54:48):
really neat.
It was such a learningexperience on how the attorneys
have to get involved to makesure that you're protecting.
Your language is protective,maybe learning experience.
So what happened was is, afterwe write the manual, they bring
Roy in, the inventor, rb systemsowner and me, and we teach a

(55:12):
group of Glencoe instructors tobecome instructors.
So I don't even remember in the, in the Bureau, you have a code
like you have a lead code, thenyou have an instructor code and
so on.
Well, the baton at that timedidn't have any of those codes.
Okay, okay, so we teach, weteach, we create these master

(55:32):
trainers is what they call themin the company.
We they're fighting that.
We create these master trainersis what they call them in the
company.
That means they went through 40hours of training.
So we give them the 40 hours oftraining, whatever week.
Two weeks later they createthese codes and they say, all
right, this is the guy who's incharge of the rapid baton
training for the agency and this, this and this.
And I'm looking around like,okay, great, you know, boy,

(55:54):
another thing has come tofruition.
Oh, and, by the way, pete,you're no longer a certified
instructor for the rapid baton.
And I'm like what do you mean?
They said, well, you don't havethe code.
I went, I taught them the classright, it was me and roy.
And uh, they're like well, hey,you'll have to go through the
classes sometime and receive aninstructor code that's the

(56:16):
government I wasn't allowed toteach it after that, isn't that
something?
yeah, it was just funny becausewhen I went to florence and I
checked in, they said hey, oneof the things you have to do,
just in case you ever go to theadx, you have to take this class
on this baton.
Okay, so you know, I show up, Igot my duty rig, I put it on
baton, back there, everything,and I show up for the training.

(56:38):
They're like, hey, where'd youthat?
Because they're thinking I musthave taken it out of their gear
.
Sure, no, no, I got my own.
Well, how do you have your own?
I went, boy, I've had one for along, long time, great.
And I was watching how thetraining on this is designed for
communication also.
So, like, if you see me, bothmy hands are present.
You know, I don't think there'sa problem If my hand's behind

(56:58):
my back.
That's telling you, that'slooking at me.
This might be a problem If myhand's down low, I'm telling you
.
I think the problem's reallycoming If I bring it out.
The problem's here.
The baton's a communicationdevice.
The drills demonstrate that.
Anyhow, I was watching theirdrills, I'm like they were just
going right to the hitting.
Let's hit them.

(57:22):
I went hey, you're not doingthose drills right, because
those drills are hey, aw, justgo have a seat.
All you got to do is just takethe class.
I'm like, no, what I'm tryingto tell you?
Those drills are actuallydesigned for communication.
You're going to lead to hittingsomebody, but they're designed
for communication, and it waspretty much that.
Go sit in the corner, get yourcertification.
Be on your way, sir.
Wow, yeah, man.

Speaker 1 (57:45):
So that's where you finished up, Florence.

Speaker 2 (57:48):
Yeah, retired out of there and you know I was just
planning on living my life.
My wife's disease was advancing, you know, and so we moved to
Arizona just to kind of pick ourstuff up, cause it's where we
met, as her family was my family.
And I got a phone call askingme if I wouldn't mind going and

(58:09):
helping a facility with one ofthe private companies, and then
that launched me into an 11 yearrun with the private Excellent.

Speaker 1 (58:15):
So I'm with the working private corrections.
I think private corrections hassuch a the media doesn't do its
service.
You know they act like it's allabout money.
They act like it's all justgreedy people and putting
inmates in cages and leavingthem there.
I've been to many privatefacilities, including one of
them that you were warden at atthe time, always been impressed.

(58:37):
I've always been impressed bythe staff that are there.
You know, the rumor is, or thetalk is, that staff don't stay.
I just I talked to a guy theother day, had 23 years in, you
know, with the same company.
I saw a lot of the stuff youguys were doing and I'm going to
ask about one of them, becauseI thought it was just so amazing
and the inmates were so engagedwas the way you take medical

(58:58):
equipment out there in Montana.
You take that medical equipment.
It all gets taken apart, nut bybolt by screw.
They clean it, they put it backtogether.
It's going back into thecommunity.
I talked to the inmates whilewe were out there.
They were so proud of what theywere doing and I can't think of
a better way because I getfrustrated.
I get frustrated in thiscountry that we take inmates, we

(59:21):
incarcerate them and they don'tpay back society for anything,
and that's not the way it shouldbe.
They should be working insideto help pay for just pay back
society for what the cost is,what they've caused the victims,
that kind of stuff.
And those guys were so engaged.

(59:42):
So tell me a little bit aboutthat working out there and what
that was like it was veryimportant and I had an
opportunity to embrace it.

Speaker 2 (59:51):
They also built sheds for people who were.
There's a program and the nameis eluding me right now, but
it's where they built houses forunderprivileged people, yeah,
and so what we did was we builtthe sheds that they used to
store their tools and theirequipment while they're building
those houses, and then thosesheds would then stay at that
house, so the homeowner had ashed to put their tools and

(01:00:12):
things into nice and habitat forhumanity.
Yeah, so they built sheds forhabitat for humanity out there,
and it was like you, everythingyou said it was them giving back
to the community because manyof them they committed a crime
and they were doing their time.
You know they were.
They committed a crime, butthey weren't bad human beings.
They committed crime when theywere removed from society, the

(01:00:34):
way the court decided, and theyhad a sense of wanting to give
back.
They wanted to feel value andworth, and that was one of the
ways of doing that, as well asalso dealing with the different
medical equipment and stuff likethat, because they're giving
something back because of allthe reasons that you stated.
You know they wanted to be apart of that community still and
it also gave them, you know,established for those maybe work

(01:00:55):
, ethic and pride and all thethings that you want to build
before you have them go back outin society.
So ethic and pride and all thethings that you want to build
before you have them go back outin society so that was a really
great experience for me.
Unfortunately, out there and wewere climbing out of it as you
came out to walk around with meCOVID really put a hit on a lot
of that stuff and because ofthat, some of the companies that
we used to deal with Habitatfor Humanity had to find vendors

(01:01:15):
and things that were closer tothe distribution point rather
than come all the way up to us34 miles south of the Canadian
border to transport it a fewhundred miles to get there.
So we weren't able to reclaimsome of those.
But that gave us the energyespecially the staff members'
energy to reach out and see whatelse we could get going again,
because they didn't want to feellike they were part of the
society.
They still wanted to feel asthough they were contributing to
the community.

Speaker 1 (01:01:37):
I think our prison systems all of them understood
better 20, 30, 40 years ago.
Like you mentioned, work, ethicand pride If you can give a
human being work, ethic andpride, they can go accomplish
anything on their own.
They sure can, and it's soimportant.

Speaker 2 (01:01:55):
And that's where I really enjoyed working with the
private industry.
Well, one, you had a chance towork for different agencies
because whoever was contractingyou, you generally followed
their inmate management policiesand their programming policies
Right, your human resources andyour business management, the
training and stuff like that,although you might be teaching
their training whereas generallythe company stuff.

(01:02:16):
So I had a chance to learn fromfour different agencies how
they did things.
It was, it was, it got the sameresult at the end, but the way
you went about it was a littlebit different and it was
intriguing.
You know to do that and I alsofeel like there were other
agencies that had a mandatoryretirement, like the federal
prisons did that you had to beout by 57.

(01:02:36):
And, um, people were justhitting their peak.
I mean, you know, think aboutit In the Bureau of Prisons, if
you met someone who was athree-time warden, they were a
season, they had steam things.
My first warden in the privates.
I was assistant warden.
10-time warden in the state ofTexas, right.
My second warden 14-time wardenin the state of Georgia.

(01:02:58):
There's depth, yeah, yeah.
And so you're learning such ahigher level of corrections, if
you ask me?
Sure, because you're takingpeople who are still
contributing to the professionof corrections.
That's what I really love aboutyour podcast and I'm so
intrigued by what you're doingbecause you're taking people and
you're getting the informationout there that corrections isn't

(01:03:20):
just a prison with a with afence or a wall.
It's a community of experts andprofessionals and you bring
your podcast is bringing out somuch attention to those.
I commend you for what you didand that's kind of what's, you
know, got me doing some of thethings that I'm doing I
appreciate that.

Speaker 1 (01:03:36):
let's.
Let's talk about yours.
I know that.
Corrections Unlimited.
Tell me about that.
Corrections Unfiltered yeah,unfiltered, I'm sorry, yeah it's
okay.

Speaker 2 (01:03:45):
Well, you know one thing I learned in the private
industry if we can jump back tothat real quick, and you said
that you know the media doesn'treally give it the proper
attention or the proper respect.
I remember my first time when Iwas working at a facility, I
got yelled at and shouted downcorrections for profit stuff

(01:04:05):
like that.
Well, they're not.
I mean, yes, it's a businessAll businesses, unless it's a
nonprofit, is for profit.
But they turn their money backinto the facility, into staff
wages, into growth.
If you figure the sites thatthese companies have their
prisons, like where I was atwhen you came to visit, that's

(01:04:26):
the largest employer in the area.
It can employ 178 people.
There's 178 lives out therethat can provide for their
families, put their kids throughcollege and contribute to
society.
What they say the dollar spentin the community is really spent
seven times.
So do you want these people whoare making you know, 60, 70,
$80,000 a year to spend that inyour community times seven?

(01:04:49):
What a great way to have it.
They actually turn the moneyback into expanding the company,
staff resources or whatever.
And the other thing about it isthe collective that you get of
the of the professionals.
If so, I like.
If you go back to the COVIDtimeframe, um, it hit us all
right and it came on fast.
Well, I'm on a telephone callas COVID that February, march,

(01:05:12):
april, covid is really startingto come in in 2020.
I'm on a phone call with 60professionals from a variety of
different agencies and they'reall talking about the way they
quarantined for the mumps,quarantined for chickenpox.
They had to manage thepopulation this way.
They had to separate the groupsthat could possibly be the most

(01:05:33):
effective.
We were able to develop a planbecause we had the resource of
all of these people with all ofthese years of experience, and
it really helped us out.
It really helped us out andthen, as our facility started
you know, being exposed andhaving having the COVID inside,
we were able, as a team, tomanage it so well because and

(01:05:53):
I'm not saying anything badabout any agency, but we did we
had more of a think tank Cause,if I'm talking to Mike Cantrell,
I got to deal with MikeCantrell and his experiences and
they could be totally differentfrom mine because he came from
a different agency and it was.
It was wonderful.
So it really bothers me whenpeople don't give the private
industry the credit that theydeserve, because they're a

(01:06:13):
melting pot of greatcorrectional minds and they are.
They are product driven.
I was going through four toseven audits a year.
Yeah, absolutely yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:06:24):
We were on top of our game and you know they talk
about for profit.
But is it really truly forprofit or is it fiscally
responsibility?
Or fiscal responsibility,Because I see more of that.
I don't have anything bad tosay about the Bureau, but when
you give somebody this giantcheck and say this is what you

(01:06:45):
get to spend, they don'tnecessarily spend it fiscally
responsible.
We spend it on whatever wethink.
Right now, the private industrytakes more time to figure out
where they're going to spend adollar.

Speaker 2 (01:07:00):
I have a great example on that.
I was assistant warden at myfirst facility.
The maintenance staff came upand they said hey, part of the
fence is down.
The last two times it was downis this one electronic part.
We'll just order in another oneand get it.
We need you to sign off on theprocurement and we'll get it in
here.
I said, okay, no problem.
It's a $2,500 piece of equipment.

(01:07:21):
They get it in, they plug it in.
It doesn't fix it.
So I get a phone call from amanaging director, like a
regional director, wonderful man, great man and he says, hey,
pete.
He says, hey, I understand thatyou signed off on that $2,500
part.
Yes, sir, he goes.
Let me just give you a littleadvice.
When something like thathappens, if you contact the
company, they'll send atechnician out who will diagnose

(01:07:43):
the problem.
That's $250.
I would rather you spend that$250 to tell me I don't have to
spend the $2,500, or to narrowdown the problem.
So I know what I'm spending.
I'm spending wisely, that's allI'm asking you to do.
That's their mindset.
Like you said, they don't mindyou spending the money.

Speaker 1 (01:08:00):
Spend it wisely, spend it wisely, sure, and I
think our tax money ought to bespent more wisely.
But that's a whole nother,that's a whole, nother show.

Speaker 2 (01:08:09):
Yes sir, yes sir.

Speaker 1 (01:08:24):
So, if you think back on your career and you're going
to talk to a new officer, whatis your number one leadership
advice?

Speaker 2 (01:08:27):
that you would give a new person coming into this
career, integrity, integrity Ithink everything builds off of
that.
I say because it's okay to makea mistake if it's an honest
mistake.
It's not okay to make a mistakeif you intentionally did
something Right, right, and so Ithink if you intentionally did
something right, right, and so Ithink if you do that, I mean
there's a lot of people who say,oh, they should go this route
or that.
But really, if you establishyourself as an honest person who

(01:08:48):
was willing to admit when theymade a mistake because your
intentions were good but thingsjust didn't work out like you
had planned or thought, there'sno problem with that.
It's it's and build from there.
And and, if you don't mind, ifI can do another one, it would
be adaptability, because you'regoing into an environment you
know.
Someone asked me the other daylike so what's so different

(01:09:09):
about corrections?
Why does it take seven weeks toteach someone to be a
correctional officer?
I said, hey, do you use ascrewdriver?
Yeah, okay, where's it at?
Well, it's over in the.
Okay, well, ours are on a boardand there's a hook that holds
or things that hold it there,and there's a shadow.
And you start explaining theprocess just to get to the
screwdriver just to go use it.
But then the supervision ittakes when the screwdriver's out

(01:09:29):
and one screwdriver might beconsidered this or another
screwdriver might be consideredthat, and they start looking at
you and they go and you say,yeah, we have a lot to train
people in, because even the setof keys that's in your pocket,
we have a way that we managethose keys to make sure the keys
are always in the right placeand use the right way.
So adaptability you have to bewilling to understand you're
entering into an environmentthat's unknown to you, just

(01:09:51):
adapt.
Too many times I think in the,my most recent years, people
were joining asking us to adaptto them and it it's like I'm
sorry, I can't let you put thecuffs in the desk drawer, the
keys in the desk drawer.
You know you'll turn to you.
Forgot the tools on your belt.
You'll bring it back tomorrow,right, we can't live like that

(01:10:11):
in a prison environment.

Speaker 1 (01:10:13):
Yeah, yeah, accountability, sometimes coming
in, I don't think people haveexperienced enough
accountability sometimes.
So, since I have you on hereSometimes coming in, I don't
think people have experiencedenough accountability sometimes,
yeah, so since I have you onhere, I'm going to follow up
with another question what'syour number one piece of
training advice for trainers?
Because I know over the yearsI've seen your training, I've
seen your passion, I've seen theway you develop stimulating

(01:10:35):
training.
It wasn't just, you know, oneof the last classes I took and I
tell this story when I teachone of the last classes I took
in the Bureau, I go up toWashington DC.
They have a guy come in and hesays, well, this is the third
time I've taught this class.
And I'm thinking, my God, dude,you've just shot everybody in
the classroom.
You know, nobody cares now,yeah, so what is it that was in

(01:11:03):
you to have that passion, tocause you to reach out and make
that training stimulating andexciting and look for new ideas
you have to believe in whatyou're training and if you don't
believe in it, step out.

Speaker 2 (01:11:12):
Unless somebody who believes in it comes to the
training.
And two, when you teach it.
You only have one opportunityto make a first impression.
So true, Make it.
I told you about Dave Young andI've known Dave Young since
1995.
You know why?
The way he started that firsttraining class I was in, I can
tell it to you word for word,step by step.

(01:11:35):
Today he made that impressionon me.
He understood.
I only have one opportunity tomake a first impression with
these people and I'm going tomake a first impression that
gives them the confidence to goall the way with me.
I remember when you talkedabout marion hard crowd to train
yeah so kind of stuck in theirways.
Pete shows up and I'll neverforget they.

(01:11:55):
They said we want you to startgoing out there and teaching you
know.
So I go out there and teachthis first class and I love the
people of Marion.
I'm not complaining about thepeople of Marion.
I had to learn.
I had to learn respect.
And as I started talking,newspapers came up.
I thought I didn't approachthis one correctly and I went
back and asked.

(01:12:16):
I said, hey, what do I need todo?
And they said you start walkingin and telling us what we need
to do.
Why don't you walk in and startasking questions upon what they
do and let them tell you howthey're doing things?
And so I thought, okay.
So the next week I went out andI changed my format from let me
teach you to hey, y'all, teachme what you guys are doing and
let me see how my stuff mightfit into that you guys are doing

(01:12:40):
, and let me see how my stuffmight fit into that.
And it became a lot betterenvironment.
So this.

Speaker 1 (01:12:42):
Uh, I guess adaptability again.
Yeah yeah, command presence.
One of the companies I work for, their.
Their motto is iron sharpensiron, and as an instructor, I
think sometimes we forget thatthere's as much knowledge
sitting in front of us as wethink we have to give, and so I
think that's something to keepin mind.
I think that's what affects methe most, too, when I go to give
, and so I think that'ssomething to keep in mind.

Speaker 2 (01:12:58):
I think that's what affects me the most, too.
When I go to classes and peoplewant to, they want to tell me
how I'm wrong before they evenknow what I do, you know, and
that then I just start shuttingdown like, okay, well, I'm gonna
sit here and be lectured toversus have an interaction with
these people and stuff rightright yeah well, thank you so
much.

Speaker 1 (01:13:17):
Tell me about your podcast.
I want to.
Where can people find that?
And uh, well, you're to blamefor it.

Speaker 2 (01:13:23):
Okay, yeah, because you know I'd like.
You talked to me about yourpodcast a couple years ago and
so I started watching yourepisodes and things and, um, you
know, I I have friends that are, you know, that are out of the
corrections completely, they'veretired, they've done whatever,
and but every time I got on aphone call with them it's like,
even even though you're like,hey, how's this, how's that?
The next thing you know you'reright back in talking about

(01:13:44):
corrections.
And I got to thinking about youand I said you know that's what
Mike's doing, is Mike'sbringing the professionalism of
corrections to the forefront ofpeople?
I got all these buddies andstuff that you know.
We think we have whimsicalthings to say and intelligent
things to say.
Why don't we start documentingit and getting it out there?
And maybe we can contribute thesame way you're contributing.

(01:14:06):
I happen to have been asked todo a podcast on veterans
transitioning into lawenforcement, especially
corrections.
That lady talked to me, mistyMoreno.
She talked to me and she saidhave you ever thought about
doing something like this?
I told her about it.
I'm like I got this guy and Isaid he's really bringing
corrections to the forefront ina professional way, because I'm
so tired of the impression beingwhat's that?

(01:14:28):
Green Mile or ShawshankRedemption and stuff like that,
and you're doing that, you'rebringing it, you're showing the
professional side of it.
It's intense, it's a chess game.
It's not checkers all the time.
That kind of got that going.
I talked to those three guysRick Harnes, chris McConnell,
charlie Bueno.
I convinced them.
I said, hey, just do this one.

(01:14:48):
They're like I don't reallywant to know if I want to do
that.
Chris was all in, we did thatone.
Now we're all prettyenthusiastic about it, so I
ain't going to lie, brother.
I go check out your stuff andthen I think about what I can do
.

Speaker 1 (01:15:04):
Yeah, well, I'm.
I'm absolutely happy to have asmany people talking about this
as we can.
You know I've.
When I started I reached out toAnthony Ganji just corrections
with William Young.
You know there there's a fewother podcasts out there and
when you think back 10 years,nobody was talking about this
stuff.
So I'm excited.
I don't I hope we get a 50podcast going talking about

(01:15:28):
corrections so that everybodycan have a conversation.

Speaker 2 (01:15:32):
So yeah, you're so good at what you do because I've
been watching your most recentones to catch up and and I tell
you this the way that you letthe person communicate what's
going on with them and then thequestions you ask, you can tell
that you're involved.
You've read the book, you'veread the articles, you've done
your research and I want to saythank you to inspiring me,
inspiring the guys onCorrections, unfiltered, and

(01:15:53):
yeah, let's get 50 of thesethings popping up.
I'd love sometime, if you don'tmind, join the four of us and
let's talk about old times andlet's talk about where you see
things going, because you'restill out there training.
You have such an impact throughyour podcast.
You're writing books, you areputting such a big shadow on
corrections and letting peopleknow that you're out there that

(01:16:13):
I want to say thank you to you.

Speaker 1 (01:16:16):
I sure appreciate that I do.
I'm happy to still be able tomake a difference because I care
about the profession.
You sure are doing it, yes, sir.
So where can they findCorrections Unfiltered?

Speaker 2 (01:16:26):
Go to YouTube channel it's Corrections, unfiltered
the YouTube channel and just hiton that and we have different
episodes.
If you're on LinkedIn, I oftenwill post things on LinkedIn.
I copycatted you and, luckily,luckily, brian Antonelli reached
out to us and said hey guys,I'd like to talk to you.
He had worked with Chris and Ithink he worked around Rick

(01:16:47):
Harns and stuff, and so we justdid Brian Antonelli last night.
Great, we just passed that oneon out there, yeah, but yeah,
that's the part of the best waysto find it and I was hoping
that maybe offline, you and Ican pick your brain and figure
out how I can get better.
Absolutely yes, sir.

Speaker 1 (01:16:59):
In the show notes.
If anybody wants it, I'll putthe link to Corrections
Unfiltered.
I'll also put your LinkedIn.
That's a good place for peopleto get in contact with you.

Speaker 2 (01:17:06):
I have a Corrections Unfiltered LinkedIn profile.
That's the best one to reach meon.

Speaker 1 (01:17:10):
Yes sir, Okay, Yep we'll post those in the show
notes if anybody wants to reachout and talk.
I can't tell you how excited Iam to have you on here.
Like I said, you've been atraining mentor and a person
I've looked up to for years, andit's always great to talk to
you.
I always learn something.
I appreciate you.

Speaker 2 (01:17:27):
I really appreciate you and the way you do your
business.
Sir, Appreciate it.

Speaker 1 (01:17:31):
Have a great day.
Hey, before we go, I'd like totake a minute to thank one of
our sponsors.
Omni Real-Time Locating Systemis a company I've been working
closely with for years.
I'm proud to be a part of thisinnovative team that's developed
the best real-time locatingsystem on the market today for
your jail or prison.
Omni's PREA compliant real-timemonitoring technology is the

(01:17:53):
very best way to track andrecord your inmates' locations,
their movements, theirinteractions, throughout every
square inch of your correctionalfacility.
Imagine getting an alarm thesecond an escape happens, or an
alert that lets you know when aninmate's heart rate drops below
a set level.
To learn more about Omni, go towwwomnirtlscom that's

(01:18:17):
omnirtlscom or you can click ontoday's show notes to get the
information guide.
Omni Real-Time Locating Systemis a powerful tool specifically
designed for the moderncorrectional professional.
If you haven't done so, pleasetake a moment to like my podcast
or, better yet, hit thesubscribe button so that you'll
be notified when the nextepisode comes out.

(01:18:38):
Thanks for listening and let'sbe safe out there.

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112: Security, Innovation, and Leadership in American Prisons - Interview w/Pete Bludworth

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}112: Security, Innovation, and Leadership in American Prisons - Interview w/Pete Bludworth