113: Beyond Toxicity: Building Healthier Correctional Workplaces - Interview w/Josh Ryle - The Prison Officer Podcast

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey guys, before I get to our first guest, I just
want to take a moment today andthank Pepperball.
You know they've been a sponsorof the Prison Officer Podcast
for more than three years andwithout their sponsorship I
wouldn't be able to bring thiscontent to you.
We wouldn't be able to havethese great conversations with
these leaders and trainers incorrections.
You know I used Pepperball formore than 20 years when I was

(00:24):
working in the institution.
It was something I believed in,so it was easy for me when I
got the chance to become amaster instructor for Pepperball
.
I get to go out and train lawenforcement and corrections and
I get to see you guys in thefield, so I really appreciate
that.
The great thing aboutPepperball is it gives the
officers the confidence to havea tool that they can use that

(00:46):
they know is going to work.
If you would reach out toPepperball wwwpepperballcom and
thank them for sponsoring thePrison Officer Podcast and,
while you're there, see all thenew things that are part of the
Pepperball family, hello andwelcome back to the Prison
Officer Podcast.
My name is Mike Cantrell.
Today I've got Joshua Ryle.
He started off or has workedfor the Tennessee Department of

(01:08):
Corrections, the Davidson CountySheriff's Office, the Tennessee
Department of Corrections, andis currently working at the
Montgomery County Sheriff'sOffice.
We met during some recenttraining and we had a talk and
he had some pretty cool ideas onsome of the stuff they were
doing there and I wanted to talkto him about it.
So welcome to the podcast, josh.

(01:30):
Thanks, mike, I appreciate youhaving me Absolutely.
This second season I've beentrying to focus a little bit
more on training.
I think that's one thing thatall of us in corrections can
improve on and I think it'sprobably the number one most
important thing that we can dofor our culture and our agencies
.
So I'm excited to talk aboutthat.
But I always start off at thesame way.

(01:51):
I like to learn about theperson I'm talking to.
So if you can let us know whereyou grew up and you know high
school and stuff like that, okayWell.

Speaker 2 (02:01):
I I'm originally from Dallas, texas.
I was born and raised there inthe music industry, the country
music industry.
My father was an entertainer,or is still currently, and he
got picked up by Mel Tillis inthe mid 80s and that kind of
just sent a roller coaster ofevents, of moves to Nashville,

(02:23):
tennessee.
And so I moved to Nashville asa teenager and spent all my
teenage years.
I went to high school atMcGavock High School.
I also went to high school atNashville Academy.
Right.
So, long story short, I ended up, you know, spending all my
youth in Nashville, and one dayhe moved up to Clarksville,

(02:44):
Tennessee, and he told me thatif I ever came up here, I'd
never leave it.
And I'm thinking now this is acity boy that grew up in Dallas
and Nashville and you're tellingme to come to little
Clarksville, Tennessee.
Well, I moved out here and Idid.
I came out, I fell in love withthe place and I've been here
almost 20 years since.
And I've been here almost 20years since.

(03:05):
So but kind of what got me intothis field as far as that goes,
is during my high school.
During my senior year I had myfirst child, my daughter Hope
she's 27, now Nice, and I leftschool.
I was going to, I was in a kindof a co-op program, so I was

(03:26):
working four hours a day andthen school four hours a day,
getting high school credit forfor work credits, and I ended up
leaving that year to go to workfull time.
And so I did.
And at the time I remember Iwas working for a Taco Bell and
I went to my boss and I said Ijust left high school, I had six

(03:47):
months to go and I'm having alittle girl and I need to go to
work.
And so he immediately bumped meto a shift manager.
And so in 1998, I was a shiftmanager at Taco Bell and my
daughter came in to be, andwhat's funny is I did well in
that field.
I moved up, decided to changevenues, so I went over to

(04:09):
Captain D's as a seniorassistant manager and then Jack
in the Box comes to town and Iknew everything there was to
know about Jack in the Boxbecause I'm from Dallas, texas.
So I go up there interview withthem and they hired me and I
became part of the managementteam that opened six locations
and during that time the vibewas on me.
You know, I remember growing upin high school and I remember

(04:32):
hearing things like, if youdon't finish school or if you
don't succeed and graduate, itwas never the fearful end of
well, you could end up, you know, selling drugs or you could end
up doing these things.
It was more focused on you'llflip burgers at McDonald's,
demeaning an honest living Right, and you know there was that

(04:53):
stigma that that went with itand it kind of haunted me
because I remember growing upwith that.
And so I had a friend of mine Iwas 21 and I hadn't seen him
since high school and he rang mydoorbell and when I opened the
door his name was Ken Ford.
He just recently passed away,but I owe him everything as far

(05:17):
as this field goes, because hewas standing on my doorstep in a
Tennessee Department ofCorrection uniform and he was
working for Riverbend MaximumSecurity Prison.
Okay.
I just remember looking at himand I thought okay, wait a
minute.
How did you get this job, youknow?
And how did I get into it?

(05:39):
Because he looked like he hadpurpose and that's what I feel,
like I was lacking at the time,you know.
Yeah, I took on theresponsibility to raise a family
.
But I wasn't fulfilled, and sohe gave me the process and to
give you an idea of how eager Iwas back then, you had to go
down to Dedrick Avenue downtownNashville and you had to test

(06:02):
for the position.
So I took the test and theysaid you did well, you passed.
Now you're going to receiveletters in the mail from prisons
across the state and they'llschedule interviews and things
of that nature.
You know, I've always been onethat lacked patience, and so I
told him I said I don't havethat kind of time.
Where's your closest prison?
And they were like well, that'snot usually how things are done

(06:26):
.
And I was like well,nonetheless, where's that?
And so they told me aboutCockrell Bend.
And there were three prisonsside by side MTRC, river Bend
and Deberry and so I just wentto the first one.
So I walked into Checkpoint.
There was a Checkpoint officer.
I asked to speak to anyone intheir HR.
I remember an older gentleman,retired military retired His

(06:48):
name was Jim Omnivet Lieutenant,and he came around and I
introduced myself and I told himyou know what I was trying to
do, and I think that he mighthave kind of been taken back by
my directed.
You know how direct I was beingBoldness.
Yeah, I mean I was pretty boldto walk into a prison saying I
need a job.
Sure, you know government jobsdon't usually go down that way.

(07:11):
But it was funny.
He interviewed me and you knowyou got to do the background
check and everything before youtake the test back then and so.
I was literally on a bus toTullahoma the very next week
where I went to the academy.
On a bus to Tullahoma the verynext week where I went to the
academy, they hired me and Iremember experiencing the
structure of that and you know,when you grow up in the music

(07:33):
world and your father's anentertainer, structure is
something that I was lacking.
I could see that.
So I went in, I graduated theiracademy and I remember walking
into the facility and this wasat Middle Tennessee Correctional
Complex.
It was a reception center, sothis is the first place people
go.
When they come from the countyjails, we classify them and then

(07:55):
you know, within the next 90days we'll ship them off to time
building facilities.
And I remember walking in thereand I was just all about it.
I wanted to learn any andeverything I could and I was
very fortunate that they threwevery ounce of training.
I mean, if I requested it, Imean they just gave it Back then

(08:18):
.
People who hired on.
This is 2001 now, so we'retalking almost 25 years ago.
Yeah, who hired on this?
is 2001 now, so we're talkingalmost 25 years ago.
We had a lot of retiredmilitary, a lot of older
generation that were fillingthose spots and so to get some,
you know, young kids our agecoming in there and just eager
to show up and just want to be apart of something they were

(08:40):
very receiving of that and theyjust, I mean, they really took
care of me and I was so takenback by them.
I worked there for almost fouryears and then, um, I I decided
to head County and, you know,tried detention.
And so that's how I ended upgoing to Davidson County
Sheriff's office and I was withthem for about three and a half

(09:01):
years.
And.
I wasn't very career minded, Iwas money minded, so I was
chasing who paid better, youknow in my early twenties.
And then I heard about theunlimited overtime opportunity
at Deberry special needs mentalhealth facility.
And so when you come to themwith seven years experience.

(09:24):
Your post is the mental healthunit and so I was a set relief
post within that mental healthunit.
Within Seven Charlie Bravo andFoxtrot, and I gave them about
two years.
About two years of the mentalhealth at that level was about
all I could muster up.
And so yeah it really was.

(09:48):
That was of any chapter of mylife, that was probably the most
beneficial two years of myfuture going forward and dealing
with mental health inmates andyou know, kind of being able to
decipher the difference betweendisciplinary and mental health
crisis.

(10:08):
Right.
And so in 2010, I put in toapply at Montgomery County and
they picked me up.
I remember speaking to theindividual that interviewed me
and you know he mentioned thatthey were on the same retirement
as Nashville at TDOC and I saidif you give me an opportunity,

(10:30):
I'll never leave.
And here we are all these yearslater, may of next year, I'll
have been in corrections for 25years, nice.
And so so, yeah, I've been withMontgomery County now 16 years,
yeah, so did you start withMontgomery County as an officer?

Speaker 1 (10:45):
I?

Speaker 2 (10:45):
did?
I started out as a deputy.
I was promoted to FTO withinthe first two years, back when
it was a separate it wasinitially a separate rank.
Then I promoted up to corporala year after that.
I was corporal for multipleyears before I ended up taking a
transfer.

(11:05):
My kids were getting older andI wanted to kind of be on some
normal hours.
I've been working nights andswing shift, you know, since
2001.
So I decided to give the courtsa try and I went and worked
courts for almost two years andduring all that time I've been
adjunct training, so as an extrato fill in, and I've done that

(11:27):
since about 2000.
And an opportunity came topromote up into full-time and
that's what led us to wherewe're at today, and that's been
almost four years.

Speaker 1 (11:39):
Cool, cool.
I want to back up just a littlebit, and this is from my own
personal knowledge.
Cool, I want to back up just alittle bit, and this is from my
own personal knowledge.
I work with Command Presenceand we've recently started up
the Correctional TrainingOfficer Program.
So tell me about your FTOprogram.
What did that consist of?
What were the timelines?
Because you know, as I went tostudy and started to build this

(11:59):
program for Command Presence, Idid some study across the United
States.
There is nothing written instone anywhere, it is all over
the place.
Some of them, you know, some ofthem we're talking, less than a
week We've got probably at themost I saw was four weeks, which
is crazy when you think aboutthe fact that to become a
wildlife officer in Texas, youknow you're going to go through

(12:22):
a 15 week Academy, you're goingto go through an FTO program for
six months and you're going totake almost a full year of
training to become a wildlifeofficer, but yet we're going to
throw people in corrections,just bam, bam, bam.
So I'm interested and this ison a personal note, but I'm
interested on the timeline ofthe FTO program that you worked
in.
How did that work.
Can you talk to me about that?

Speaker 2 (12:45):
Well, it grew substantially over the years.
We've been very fortunate.
The initial start is four weeksof initial training with me and
my partner in training.
I call her Action.

Speaker 1 (12:53):
Jackson.
Now is this after the academy.

Speaker 2 (12:56):
No, this is initial.
So for corrections.

Speaker 1 (13:00):
Institutional.

Speaker 2 (13:01):
Yeah, and so they'll spend four weeks with us and
then they go into an FTO processof seven weeks where, of course
, they're graded on a dailybasis, observed, you know.
You know polish up where weneed to polish up.
You know recognize the thingsthat are going well until they
have a formal graduation at thecompletion are they staying with

(13:23):
a FTO or a CTO that entire time?

Speaker 1 (13:27):
Yes, wow, yes.
Seven weeks with an FTO, thatthat's not.
Uh, you don't find thateverywhere.
That's a pretty good program,yeah.

Speaker 2 (13:35):
We, we've been very fortunate.

Speaker 1 (13:37):
Yeah, yeah, wow, really yeah.
So, um, you get in there, andnow you're, and now you are the
professional.

Speaker 2 (13:46):
What's the role I forgot I'm a training sergeant.
So a sergeant in the trainingdivision for the corrections
side under TCI TennesseeCorrections Institute.

Speaker 1 (13:56):
And there's two of you working there at Montgomery
County in that position, mm-hmm,okay.
How many officers?

Speaker 2 (14:02):
Or how many deputies you would ask me that Just
generally, I want to say justshy of 200.
Okay.
And that's figurative.
That's more of a guess becauseI have not looked at the count
yet or lately, but that's aboutaverage.

Speaker 1 (14:26):
Right, so yeah, so tell me about the training
program.
What all do you guys do forMontgomery County?

Speaker 2 (14:33):
Well, we do everything from firearms to
defensive tactics to emergencyresponse law, of course, the ins
and outs of our policy andprocedure and things of that
nature, deescalation, just allthe big topics that we do.
And then when I came into theposition, that's kind of led us

(14:55):
to where we're at.
I remember I got promoted on aFriday and my partner came up
and showed me my work area and Ithought, man, what a nice work
area and it was all so neat andpresentable.
And then I went over and lookedat her work area and I said
what's all that?
She said that's your workloadand I was like okay, what have I

(15:18):
done?
Welcome to the world oftraining.
But she had mentioned, she saidthat she had been carrying the
load of two of us waiting forthe process you know the
selection process for someone tocome in and give her a hand.
And she said I am under adeadline and I need a class for
in-service.
And I said okay, and she said Ineed it by Monday.

(15:40):
I need it by Monday.
And I said, jack, it's Friday.
She's like yeah, I'm going togive you a laptop.
And I said okay, how long do weneed?
And she said two, three hoursand I said wait a minute.

(16:04):
You want me to come up with atraining worth its salt that are
going to keep people focusedand interactive in two days, but
three hours of material.
And she's like yeah, I was likeokay.
And she goes the good news issubject matter of your choosing.
And then I thought, okay, yourchoosing Right.

(16:26):
And then I thought okay.
So I have always been someonethat what really?
I don't know that you.
You have some people that aredefensive tactics nerds.
You have people that are booknerds.
You know I am a human behaviornerd.
What just blows my mind?
I love to study why we behavethe way we do, specifically in

(16:48):
our field, because there arereasons why.
And a lot of times we don't wantto vote, we don't look at the
reasons why, and so I decided tostart digging, and so I did,
went home, I worked on my owntime at my house and I mean it
was hours and hours just to getenough to get through Monday,

(17:10):
because I knew it was going togrow bigger and bigger.
In general, not agency specific, because no matter what agency
I've ever worked for, we havesome very commonalities in
corrections culture across theboard.
It didn't matter whether I wasworking at the state prison or

(17:33):
for any county facility.
There were behaviors amongst us, as far as ourselves, that we
start to develop over time, thatkind of feed, this end-time
statistic of officer wellnessand things of that nature.

Speaker 1 (17:48):
So give me specific examples.

Speaker 2 (17:51):
Okay.
So I remember multiple timesI've been to several wellness
trainings over the years and thestatistics that that plague the
, the corrections field divorce,suicide, alcoholism, drug
addiction.
You know we die early when weretire.

(18:11):
I think the last statistic Iread was less than five years
after retirement.
These are things that I'vealways wondered.
Why, what feeds that?
And, of course, over time, youknow, as I've worked in the
field, I know that the stress,the high stress, high speed, low
drag.
You know constant moving,constant interaction with the

(18:35):
inmate population and not tomention fellow staff members too
.
There are things that we pickup along the way that we don't
even know is happening, pick upalong the way that we don't even
know is happening.
And my whole approach to thatwas well, what if we could take

(18:55):
a proactive approach?
Why not?
Corrections historically hasbeen a very reactive field when
things happen we react, wechange policies.
We change training Absolutely,but there's also some areas that
we could be more proactive, andso I wanted to focus on the
first part of the training.
It was the initial.
This was all it was ever goingto be was I wanted to focus on

(19:17):
workplace toxicity.
Okay.
And what were some of thethings?

Speaker 1 (19:22):
that.
Tell me what that means, Tellwhat we're talking about here.

Speaker 2 (19:26):
So, for example, when you, when you look at the
statistics of officer wellnessand you see all of those topics
that I just threw out duringearly training this, these were
kind of synonymous with peoplewho had spent a lifetime in
corrections and this was our endresult things to be aware of,

(19:47):
things to watch out for, okay,but whenever you start to ask
the questions of, well, whatfeeds that?
You start talking about thehigh stress or maybe some of the
trauma that we've interacted inalong the way.
Well, what does that say forthe one to five-year employee
we're seeing these statistics onand they're not at the end of

(20:07):
their career.
Five years ago, they come intoour line of work and they can't
wait to put your uniform on.
They're so excited.
And now, all of a sudden, we'reseeing wellness issues, we're
seeing divorce, we're seeingalcoholism, we're seeing these
things happen at a much fasterrate and that was kind of what
fed the prequel to the training.

(20:29):
So, but those same things thatfeed that were the same things
that start to change how weinteract with each other that I
went into were.
You know, from the moment thatwe come into this field, things

(20:53):
start happening, things startchanging and in the beginning.
You look at it and it's thethings that are changing in us
that make us really good in ourfield.
You know we start to developthings like an investigative
mindset, what it means to besecurity-minded, to be aware of
your surroundings, having thatsituational awareness these are
all great things that make youreally good.

Speaker 1 (21:11):
It becomes hypervigilance.

Speaker 2 (21:13):
Absolutely, yeah, okay.
So when you look at that andyou think of these things that
make, when you're constantlydealing with your inmate
population and you're constantlytrying to get to the bottom of
whatever it is you're dealingwith that day, whether it be you
know fights, you know floods,you know or just daily
manipulation you know when youleave the world that you've

(21:38):
lived in your entire life, forthe most part it's trustworthy
until given a reason not to.
But then you enter a worldthat's 100% manipulation and you
start to pick up some differentcharacteristics and what I've
noticed is those things thatmake us really great at that.
They start to become part ofour DNA as we continue on in our

(22:00):
career and then we start usingthose same concepts to deal with
each other Right Now.
That can be a problem, okay,especially then, because if this
is the same process that you'reinteracting with colleagues,
now your inmate population, yourcolleagues who you are spending
more time with than your family, do you not think that these

(22:22):
same things are going to go homeand now you're going to
interact with family, the sameway, right?
So, for example, some of thethings, just the common things,
that we kind of laugh about asfar as behaviors go and
corrections.
When you have to deal and livein that investigative mindset a
hundred percent of your of yourworkday, you immediately what it

(22:44):
does is it starts to train youto assume the worst in the
person that you're dealing with.
Whether it be staff, inmate,family doesn't matter, and it's
a habit that's hard to breakbecause you don't even know
what's happening.
And so, for example, you knowwhen somebody calls out sick on
you as a supervisor, the firstthing out of most people's minds

(23:05):
that have spent a lifetime inthis career isn't well.
I hope they feel better.
It's, they just didn't want tocome to work assuming the worst,
for example, it kind of straysour priorities.
I used to ask this question topeople, as I've taught this
class across other counties andother places, as I've taught
this class across other countiesand other places, and I always

(23:27):
ask the question when it comesto priority, just to kind of
show how that assumption changesfor the worst.
I said if I'm your colleagueand something is happening that
is life-threatening and you haveto get to me to save my life,
how many of you are going to doit?
And, mike, I'll get 100% handsin the air.
Yeah, we got you, brother, andyou know why?

(23:48):
Because that's what we do.
That's when we perform at ourbest.
Okay.
Well, then I say, okay, so nowlet's flip the script just a
little bit.
Now you're my relieving shiftand I didn't get all my showers
and my wrecked bed.
And now you got to pick up myslack.
God help me, because itcouldn't be because I got busy,

(24:10):
it's because I had to be sittingaround doing nothing, because
we're assuming that that's aperformance issue and there's
always been very littleforgiveness and performance
issues and corrections becausewe don't have a lot of room for
error.
And so essentially, we're saying, yes, we'll save your life, but
we won't help carry the load.
And it's funny to see thatlight bulb go off on people and

(24:33):
they go oh my gosh, I've donethat.
And what's funny is is thewhole time that we were putting
this together, as I was sittingthere putting in these details
and looking these things up, Irealized here I thought I was on
a soapbox.
I was guilty of every singleone of them, and then it just
intrigued me even more.
I wanted to know well, wheredoes that come from?

(24:55):
How does that start?
So it was funny.
The first time I taught it.
I remember you know it's hard.
You know you can go teach inanother area and the interaction
is very different than when youteach at home, because your
colleagues have seen you at yourworst, they've seen you have

(25:17):
those bad days.
And now here we are talkingabout how to address, you know,
a workplace toxicity and how tonot let it overcome all facets
of your life.
And I remember I got up therein front of these folks and I
was looking around the room andI
thought this was going to be atough one, you know, because
there's a lot of positivity init.
But instead of tacklingindividuals, it was more of just

(25:41):
tackling the behaviors andshowing where they come from and
how to change them, how topivot and move into something a
little more healthy.
And I got done with that class.
We taught for almost threehours and I remember having
colleagues that have been indouble digits come up to me and

(26:02):
they said why have I been inthis line of work this long?
And that's the first time I'veever heard that discussed.
And the response was I neededto hear that because I didn't
realize those behaviors that Iwas picking up and talking about
the topics of it, like negativefiltering, self-sabotaging

(26:23):
behavior.
Talking about the topics of itlike negative filtering,
self-sabotaging behavior, youknow where, over time, we
learned to self-criticizeinstead of self-reflect.
And you know, in dealing withthe two, one doesn't allow
growth and one does.
You know, and historically wedwell in our mistakes and we
that's what we do weself-criticize, which is why
that cycle just kind of keepsrepeating itself.

(26:44):
And so, after getting thatinitial response, I knew
especially from some of theindividuals that I got it from I
knew I was on to something thatwas for the good of our culture
and that was the goal was tojust show a different
perspective on correctionsculture and show people that our

(27:09):
culture is controlled byourselves.
Now, I may not be able to changeyou as an individual, but I
know somebody inspired me tomake change in myself and, if I
can do the same and inspire that, that want that need to make a
change, to bring a little morepositivity to what you do for a
living, because I think that oneof the most important things to

(27:33):
teach people in this field ifyou want to teach people to take
pride in the purpose that theyserve, they got to know why they
matter in the first place.
You know, and I can't tell youhow many times when I started
early in my career, mike, I usedto hear people tell me all the
time well, you know, you're notthe real police, right?
Well, telling me that doesn'thelp me grow better in my field.

Speaker 1 (27:57):
So where is that coming from?
Is that a lack of training?
Is it a lack of leadership?
Is it a lack of you know where?
Where is that feeling comingfrom that you know that you're
not worth whatever, that you'renot as?

Speaker 2 (28:10):
I don't know if I would call that a lack of
anything.
I think it was just historicalcorrections.
I used to.
I remember being 21 years oldand having colleagues just say
you know, all we are areglorified babysitters.
I used to hear them demean thatthat's culture.
Yeah, well, exactly.
And so I wouldn't say it waslike a lack of leadership or
training, I think it was justcommon culture.

(28:32):
And I've heard those things atevery area of my career.
And you know what's funny is myresponse anytime I ever heard
that, you know, I said,regardless of your faith, you
know, we can agree that that weget a good go around at this.
This is the road that we chose,this is what we chose to do
with it, and I just can't fathomthat doing something at a

(28:59):
mediocre level without all mypassion and all my drive, it's
my one go around, I know.
I have to believe that everyone of us have some purpose,
more than just thinking that youjust go to work every day and
punch a clock.

Speaker 1 (29:16):
Yeah, but I'm going to have to.
I guess I might have to pushback a little bit on this,
because I absolutely think it'sleadership If your employees.
Your employees won't have thatif they feel valued Now, whether
that's supervisory or whetherthat's administration, but you

(29:37):
know being a servant leader,letting people know that you
care, letting people know thatthey're worth, something that
comes from the top down.
And the opposite also comesfrom the top down.
I worked for a warden veryearly on at Springfield Missouri
and I have never met anybodythat hated line staff as bad as
he did, as he did, and hisleadership oozed into that

(30:05):
institution, to the point thatthe only thing that the inmates
and officers had in common wasthat they hated that man.

Speaker 2 (30:09):
Yeah, I think I'll add to that too, though If
that's the culture that he cameup in, that field in, he
wouldn't know any differenteither.
You know what I mean?
I mean, I guess, well, if youstop and look at it, I mean if
the culture never changes andlike I said from 01 throughout
my entire career, it's improvedbut you still have those pockets

(30:29):
of just folks that you know andyou're going to have them
everywhere in every walk of life.
But it seems like incorrections it seems to be a
little bit amplified as far asjust the amount that you deal
with on a regular basis.
And now what's funny is is whenyou see these folks come in they
didn't come in with thatattitude, you know.

(30:52):
They came in ready and eager totake on the world.
And after about six months to ayear, we start to see these
changes and it's like wait aminute, what's happening?
There's something about culturethat's affecting this, because
they didn't come to us this way.
But what it does mean is isthat they learned it.
They can unlearn it.
If you can learn that behavior,you can learn a better behavior

(31:13):
.

Speaker 1 (31:15):
I ticked off a guy in a training about a month ago
because here's what I told himabout culture because he was
sitting in the back with hisarms crossed while I'm teaching,
you know, and every and we weretalking about a use of force
and and in this situation, thesergeant had taken the time to
pull everybody back out we'llget our, you know, we'll get our
stuff in order, and now we'llgo back in.

(31:36):
I said that's the safest way todo that, you know.
And he pops off.
Well, we, they should have justwent in there and stomped him.
They should just so whoa.
I said that's the safest way todo that, you know.
And he pops off.
Well, we, they should have justwent in there and stomped him.
They should just say Whoa.
I said you know safety andliability, you know, that's,
that's what we've got to take alook at.
And he just kept going and hestarted talking about culture.
And here's what I told him.
I said if you don't like theculture and I'll tell this, go

(31:57):
look in the mirror.
You're the culture.
Every day, you set an example.
Whether you set a bad exampleor a good example is up to you,
and that's for the staff.
You're setting an examplethat's for the inmates.
You're setting an example, so II'm so glad you said that.

Speaker 2 (32:17):
Well, I say that, mike, because that's the
response I give as a matter offact, even when I was at that
last training with you inNashville.
Yeah.
And you know when I'm, when I'mtalking to people that that you
know, say you know they want abetter quality officer or better
quality deputy.
You know, as far as the youngergeneration and I don't know if

(32:38):
you remember what I said at thatevent, but my response was what
behaviors are you giving themto emulate?
If you want better, then yougot to make sure that you're
giving them something to be.
You are the one that they moldthemselves after, because you
are the one they report to, andso if you're putting that out,

(32:59):
you'll get a better quality.
You know people are worth theinvestment, mentally and
physically.
It's not just enough to trainthe mission, the life lessons
that we've learned over theyears, that maybe have been lost
in technology times.
Well then, the oomph falls onus that we have to be the ones
to go ahead and give them thoselessons, to make them more
effective at what they do and tohelp the mission.

Speaker 1 (33:20):
Right.
And so I think the other thingthat we need to take a look at
when we talk about thesecultures, when we talk about the
grumpy bastard back in thecorner you know that just is mad
.
Every day, and I've worked withthem too it's like anything
else in life.
It's about whether you're a lowlevel leader as a supervisor,
or whether you're anadministrator.
It's all about expectations,right.

(33:42):
It's about the expectations youset.
If you walk into a housing unitand you got an officer working
in there and those inmates aredoing what they want laundry's
hanging off the wall, they'vegot their chairs pulled out,
leaned back watching the TVthat's the expectation that that
officer has for those inmatesand you walk in the next housing
unit and it doesn't look likethat, and that's because of the

(34:04):
expectations we have toincluding those old grumpy
people.
We grab them by the collar, wepull them out of their
comfortable, grumpy place and weset expectations for them,
because they are a cancer yeah,they are a cancer in your agency
.

Speaker 2 (34:19):
Well, and the thing is, is they're not just a cancer
in your agency?
Well, and the thing is, is notthey're not just the cancer in
the in the agency?
I mean, yes, they will feed allof your problems, whether it
becomes to, you know keep, youknow maintaining your a low
level of retention or, you know,trying to increase morale.
I mean, yes, you will havethose that bring it down.
But what people don't realizeis is the amount of power these

(34:43):
individuals have, because, asthey start to infect your staff,
your staff are now carrying allof that home, their families.
You said that stress, thatconstant workplace stress, and
you know some of the ways that Itackled.

(35:09):
That was one individualbehavior.
The first one that I spokeabout in the training was
negative filtering, and you know, of course, you know there's a
lot of ways you can go withnegative filtering, and so I
gave an example.
I said how many of you haveever been to a meeting where
some change or some new lawshave changed, or whether we got
to pivot, change our policy,whatever we got?
to do, sure, and that meetingwas the most professional

(35:31):
meeting I ever sat through.
I mean, it was just put out.
This is what we got to do, thisis how we're going to do it.
I'm dependent on you to makethis happen and to present this
to the next level down.
And I remember going tobriefings and this is for over
the years, and I would have thatdelivery completely change from

(35:53):
what it was, because it wasstained with opinion, because
they didn't want to change, andso then they just spewed it to
the staff and it contaminatedall of them, and then they were
curious as to why it wasn'treceived well, You're talking
about the person who comes upand we've got to implement

(36:15):
change and they say I don't wantthis either, but this is what
central office or this is whatwhoever has said we have to do.
Right, and so, by doing that,what you've done is is you've
established a line between yourstaff and your admin and that's
not okay, that's not how it waspresented to you, but because
you've put the opinion on it andnow your people, who are a

(36:38):
product of you, see that it'snot well received by you, see
that it's not well received byyou.
So therefore, it's not wellreceived by them.
Now that behavior is going toprocess into the next one, which
is self-sabotaging behavior.
And so when you look at theword sabotage versus
self-sabotage, there is one bigword that is not in

(36:59):
self-sabotage, and that is myintent.
See if I set out to sabotageyou, Mike.
I'm setting out to make youlook bad, probably essentially
to make me look good.
Ok, right, Self-sabotage, whichis common terms in the world of
addiction, alcoholism, drugaddiction, whatever your
addiction.

(37:20):
Well this can also plug you inthe workplace.
So, for example, you take inthat negative opinion and that
message that was given to you tobe passed to the line staff in
the same manner and same intentthat it was intended.
You've now stained that.
And so, now that it's not wellreceived, they're purposely

(37:41):
going against the grain, they'repurposely dragging their feet,
they're purposely trying to makeit fail.
And then that's a reflection ofwho?
The guy who had the negativefilter, who did I sabotage
Myself?
But I don't realize.
I'm doing it because I thinkthat I'm just making my point or
I'm, or I'm.
So many times I hear in mypeople.
Well, backing your people withnegativity isn't really backing

(38:04):
them.
Right, right, you're not givingthem an example to follow
through on or leaning into them.

Speaker 1 (38:12):
I mean, if you've got to bring bad news, if you've
got to bring change, if you'vegot to do that kind of stuff,
you don't do it from this topdown with a hammer.
You go in there and you sitdown with the people that you
trust, the people that haveinfluence inside your, your
agency, your shift, whatever,and you talk to them about it.
Well, how would you implementthis?
What does this look like to you?

(38:32):
How can we make this work foreverybody?
And then you let that flow backup.
If you walk in, if you walkinto meetings and and that's the
way you run stuff, which I'veworked for him too and we're
going to do this and no moretalking about it.
I want to see this by nextThursday.
You're not getting any buy-in,you have no influence and it's

(38:53):
going to fail.

Speaker 2 (38:54):
Yeah, Well, and, and you know, when we were going
through those things, it wasjust funny to see the light
bulbs go off.
And I think that part of whatmade it well received was the
fact that you know I went intodetail of how I was totally
guilty of those things, how Ithis was not a matter of me just

(39:15):
saying where everybody else ismaking these mistakes.
I made these mistakes and I wasable to self-reflect and kind of
change my thinking process andnot assume the worst in others.
Because that's the other thingwhere the sabotage comes in is
you're feeding that behavior ofthe assumption of the worst in

(39:36):
people, the assumption of theworst in people.
So, for example, by saying,well, it's because these folks
said so, not given the real, itcould be the TCA changed, it
could be that you know the lawsays we can't do this anymore.
We didn't want to say that wewant to put it off on an
individual.
Well now, all I'm doing isfeeding that culture up.

(40:01):
Now they are assuming that thischange is happening and it's
personal, not professional, andthat's where that negative
filtering.
That's the form of cancer thattoxic people spread constantly,
and misery tends to love company, so that's why it grows at such
a rapid rate.
Looking at the science behindit, it doesn't help that we are
already predispositioned to leantowards the negative anyway and

(40:26):
some of our other trainings.
When we start talking about wedo a de-escalation course that
we adopted.
And when you start talkingabout gaining and draining
feelings, things that build youup and things that bring you at
your lowest, it's amazing to seewhen people write out a whole
list of those, about 98% of thetime when you ask them how many

(40:47):
of you have more draining thangaining, and they're all raising
their hand.
Well then, you know, of coursewe have some videos from some
doctors that we play, and ittalks about how we are already
wired to lean towards thenegative.
Well, we are already wired tolean towards the negative.
We actually have more negativeresponders in the brain than we
do for the positive, which feedsall kinds of behavioral biases,

(41:09):
like the negativity bias, thepessimistic, the hostile
attribution, these things thatcommonly plague us in our field,
because we start spiraling downthose behaviors before we end
up either at the termination orthe resignation Right, and which
is kind of what led into thebeginning of that course.

(41:31):
Remember, I told you we startedwith the one that addressed
toxicity.
I did a sequel to it that wasfor leadership and corrections,
and then I did a prequel becauseI got a phone call.
I'm getting a little ahead ofmyself.
The creating change class gotsuch a response that I'm going

(41:51):
to back up here just a sec.
I went to an instructordevelopment and while I was
there I was able to just speakon about five minutes of any
topic I wanted, and so I spokefor five minutes on that class
and I had multiple counties outof that class request the
training, and so I'll tell you areal treat that I got out of

(42:12):
that I got a.
I was there with a gentlemannamed Solomon Holly great guy
out of Davidson.
County and he called me out ofnowhere and he said Josh.
He said I've been talking withHeath Kane and Heath Kane was
one of my mentors, mike, when Iwas 24.
He was my training instructorat 24 and he is still at it and

(42:33):
doing great at it.
Well, they asked me if I wouldcome back to Davidson County and
teach that class, and so me andmy partner we loaded up, we
decided we were going to gopresent it as a team and we did.
And I remember walking in thatroom and I looked out at Heath
and his fellow staff and Iremember opening up I think it

(42:54):
was probably the most meaningfulopening that I could give for
that specific crew and I lookedat Heath and I said you know, 22
years ago I gave you a real rawreturn on your investment in me
, because when I left, I was theepitome of everything we're
going to talk about in thistraining.
I said but I want to let youknow that your investment wasn't

(43:15):
lost.
I just had to grow up a littlebit to know what to do with it.
And so I said I hope this makesup for it, you know.
And so I said I hope this makesup for it, you know, and so we
went into it.
The response that we got wasphenomenal.
At that point we started giftingit to other counties.
Counties would send their FTOsto shadow us and then I would
send the material home with them.
That's how I'm going to take it.

(43:36):
You know, let's kind of changethis culture together.
If we show people better waysto go about their daily and what
their purpose is, then theyshould be able to walk out of
here feeling a whole new levelof fulfillment, because we're
not focusing on all those thingsthat that feed the end demise.
You know the, the statistics ofwellness, you know.

(43:58):
And so when that startedhappening, I got a call from
David Ilowa from TennesseeCorrections Institute and he
came out and shadowed the classin Montgomery County and he
presented it at the conferencein Gatlinburg and it did really
well.
And I remember the next yearafter that conference he called

(44:20):
me out of nowhere and by nowI've already done the leadership
portion and we've startedrunning that for in services and
we're getting really goodresponse from that.
He says what are you working onright now?
And I said I'm working on aprequel to all of this.
Okay, and he said I'm workingon a prequel to all of this.
Are you like done with it orlike kind of give me an idea of

(44:45):
what it's on?
And so I told him I said well,I want to start from the
beginning, from the verybeginning.
So from the day that someonehires in, the course is called
my First Day, and that's thefirst section of this training
going forward.
And it focuses on the science asfar as the breakdown of the
brain, how you know, for example, the neocortex, the frontal

(45:09):
lobe of the brain, which iswhat's in control of all your
level of understanding andrationale and able to really
interpret what's going on.
You've got that section.
Then you've got your nextsection down, which is in charge
of your emotions, your limbicsystem, where you know they say
you know once you take a drinkof alcohol, you can no longer
think with that understandingportion of your brain.

(45:32):
You're immediately in thatemotional state.
And then, of course, thesmallest portion of your brain,
which is the amygdala, where youare geared.
This is the response for fightor flight.
Okay, now, what people don'trealize is is from the moment
that you step into those wallsor the step into any facility or

(45:53):
whatever, that's where we spenda hundred percent of our day in
that smallest portion.
We are always ready for thingsto pop off at any moment,
anytime, any place, anywhere.
Always ready for things to popoff at any moment, any time any
place anywhere, which is why,when the things are hitting the
fan man, that's where we rock,that's where we perform our best

(46:14):
, because that's what we knowexactly how to handle that the
problem with that comes.
There's a whole lot of dailyinteraction and communication
that has to take place with eachother and we're all in that
mindset, and so our normalinteraction can tend to come off
very offensive and verytransactional, because you are

(46:37):
in that state of mind where it'sall business and we don't have
time to focus in on the intentbehind a colleague's actions or
whatever.
We just assume it's the worst.
For example and I always usethis as a joke for any of us
who've ever worked any kind ofcontrol room, they're all the
same, they're busy, especiallyat shift change.
Let that phone ring duringshift change.

(47:00):
You'll hear them answer.
It's like what do you want?
You know just that immediateoff interaction that they would
have never responded that wayany other time and I'll use that
one just as a as an example.
But knowing that.
So now let's, let's add a littleportion to that.
If we know that this is wherewe're thinking 100 of the time,

(47:23):
let's start looking at thebreakdown of communication.
So when you look down at thebreakdown model of communication
, about 58% of our communicationis received successfully
through body language okay, andinteraction, all right.
Then 37% is your voice and yourtone, because you can tell my

(47:45):
intent behind what I'm saying.
But 7% 7% is the words thatface value.
So now you look at the times asthey've changed.
How do we communicate acrosssociety?
Email, text, instagram, socialmedia.

(48:07):
This is how we interact.
So the problem with that is isthat 7% success rate is now
based on the mood of the reader.
So now think, essentially, ifyou send out an email to and
I'll just say 50 people, you got50 staff members out an email
to, and I'll just say 50 people,you got 50 staff members and

(48:27):
they're all in that facility andthey're rocking and rolling,
doing their normal daily routine, and they're constantly in that
state of fight or flight.
Is it not understandable to seehow they would misinterpret the
intent behind an email whenthey're all reading it?
From that state of mind, nowonder we're getting all these
different interpretations of it.
And then you have arguments.

(48:48):
Now don't get me wrong, we'renot going to be able to get rid
of email and all these thingsthat make communication easier
or at least more efficient inthe level of how many people you
can cover at one time.
But it does mean that we have tomake sure that the people that
we task to translate that intothe intended message that it is

(49:13):
are doing it without thatnegative filter, because when
you know you're sending that in,we want to make sure that it's
interpreted in the way it'sintended.
And so it's funny because, youknow, emojis have ruined us.
I mean, I remember a time whereI sent out an email and I was
like, hey, I'm coming to pickthis up on this day at this time
.
Please have everything buttonedup ready to go.
And I mean I was getting phonecalls going.

(49:34):
Man, why are you yelling at meover this thing?
And I wasn't even typing in allcaps, right.
So now I have to have fun withit.
It's like, hey, this is not anasty gram, yeah, lol.
Hope you're having a great day.
Hey, just to let you know,while I'm making my rounds
through, I'm going to come by.
I need to pick these up.
I got a deadline I got to meet,whatever you know.
I hope you have a great rest ofyour day.

(49:55):
Y'all are doing great.
You have to add that additionalin to mentally disarm the
reader, because they are in thatmode of business, and it's not
that they assume that whatyou're saying is bad.
It's that they don't reallyhave a choice in the matter.
They're focused on the missionand this is something that's
taken their mind off of that.

(50:16):
And so we immediately beelineto deal with that as short,
sweet as possible that we can.
And then back to the mission.
You know, that can be a problemin your daily interaction with
folks.
And so while I was talking tohim about that, he said would
you be willing to teach at aconference?
And so Jackson and I wecollabed on this one, we sat

(50:38):
down and we put in the work andwe started talking about those
behavioral biases that peoplepick up and the reason we went
through that, focusing more onthe behavioral, not so much the
physical.
A lot of times, whenever youask the question in a classroom
about biases, and you ask a lotof times the class will lean on
the physical.
They'll talk about age, race,sex, all of those topics that

(51:02):
are biases that people have.
Where I'm focusing more onbehavioral.
So when you ask that, initiallythey're kind of like, you know,
you kind of get crickets.
And so then you start talkingabout like the negativity bias,

(51:30):
as I mentioned earlier.
Easy to fall into that,especially at the age that you
are able to hire in atcorrections.
So, for example, mostcorrections facilities that I've
seen that don't carry acommission status hire in at 18.
For those that do carrycommission status, it's 21.
Well, when you start askingpeople when they think that they
develop their biases, a lot ofthe feedback I've gotten over
the years is well.

(51:51):
During our childhood, andthey're not wrong you do.
You develop a lot of your biasesbased on how you were raised,
who you were raised, by allthese things.
But when it comes to thebehavioral side it's a little
bit different.
So, for example, on thebehavioral side it's a little
bit different.
So, for example, on thebehavioral end, the average
adult and I say that adultdoesn't stop or is not fully

(52:15):
developed in that frontal lobe,that neocortex, so I'm at the
age of 29.
Well, that's where a lot ofthose behavioral, those
behaviors are picked up.
So we've all heard the saying,you know, I remember hearing it
growing up when I was a kid ifyou hang out with a rough crowd,
you become the rough crowd,right?
Right.
Well, so can you imagine comingin at 18, 21 years old and you

(52:39):
enter a toxic culture and this,and then your daily interaction
with inmate population, iswhat's shaping your ability to
reason and understand?
And so essentially, thenegativity bias trains the mind,
basically the feeling of loss.
You feel that at so much highera level than you do of all that

(53:03):
you've gained.
So essentially, like I give avisual, it's like it's got this
guy with this wheelbarrow andhe's just it's full to the rim
of all these things that he hasin this wheelbarrow and then he
looks over and he sees the onething on the other side that he
doesn't have and it makes himmad.
You know, and we joke on thegun range because I tell all my
officers I'm like I see it everytime you get out there You'll

(53:23):
have a grouping this big and oneround will be down here and,
man, they're so frustrated withthat one round because they
didn't pull that one into therest.

Speaker 1 (53:34):
And so if you're a new officer and you feel like
you're in this toxic culture,what's some of the stuff you can
do?

Speaker 2 (53:43):
I mean how do they avoid this?
So one the training initiallyis that of what it is.
It is a red flag training.
These are behaviors now thatwe've talked about, we've
discussed.
So one is now you know how torecognize it.
The whole point of that was, Iremember years ago and I asked
this even at a facility I workedat before I used to ask them
when you hire people in, whatare you telling them?

(54:06):
They're like well, we tell themall the things that they can
accomplish with hard work andmake sure they show up on time,
be ready to just take onanything, be a solution to your
supervisor's problems.
I'm like that's awesome, butwhat are you telling them about
the daily interaction?
And it's well, we didn't wantto run them off.
And what are you telling themabout the daily interaction?

(54:26):
And it's well, we didn't wantto run them off, and I'm like so
they feel like they're lied to.
So let's, let's, let's betransparent about it.
Hey, this is what you'resigning on for, and these are
the behaviors that can eithermake or break you.
Let's talk about the ones thatbreak and then, if you start to
find yourself spiraling, here'ssome ways that you can actually
get yourself on the right track.

Speaker 1 (54:46):
What are some of those ways?

Speaker 2 (54:48):
Well, one initially is to first let them know.
Surround yourself with peoplethat are for you.
Sure.
Okay, people who feed advicewith things that end success are
not people who are for you.
Right success are not people whoare for you, people who remind

(55:10):
you of why you matter and whatthe end result of your goal is
and how you'll never meet it,because nobody ever won anything
throwing in the towel.
That's step one.
Step two if you start fallinginto this and it usually starts
to happen when we start to makemistakes, or maybe we get
ourselves in a little bit oftrouble Maybe we did something,
maybe we cut some cornerssomewhere we shouldn't have, and

(55:32):
now they're having to, you know, reprimand me or?
Or verbal counsel, you know allof those things that kind of
come with this.
Okay, instead of sitting thereand self-criticizing if we go
over in depth of self-criticismand why that is the common
mindset of corrections we thenshow them a path of how to

(55:55):
self-reflect, of how to actuallylook at what your part of this
issue was, and instead of justmaking this because I never
think that disciplinary actionshould be a point of discipline
I think it should be a point ofeducation.
You know, yes, we have to dothis to acknowledge the mistake

(56:16):
made, but we're going to endthis on the path to get you
right.
You know exactly, and if youpave that path one, you
eliminate the possibility ofthem thinking it was personal,
because now you're there fortheir benefit.
You still address the problem,you still did it with the way
that you had to do it.
But then you have to give thema path to self-reflect.

(56:37):
A lot of people don't know howto self-reflect and there's so
many steps in that.
You know some of them are, youknow, to one.
Take a break from thecircumstances, because when you
initially get primed or when youfeel threatened, you're already
in that state of fight orflight.
So at that point you start togo into an overload.

(56:57):
And so that's where we've seenpeople get so mad or frustrated
they just can't even function.
You know you're having to likewalk them outside, let them get
a cigarette or whatever theirCoke or whatever it is that
their advice is to kind of winddown.
If you know that this is howpeople are going to respond, we

(57:18):
have to teach them how to notfocus on exaggerated thoughts.
I give a prime example I had adeputy call me one day and they
said I need to speak to alieutenant right now, right,
this very second, and I saidokay, well, hold on now.
I said have you had a chance totalk to your shift commander?
No, I said okay, are you goingto Do they get a chance?

(57:41):
I mean, you know I'm not yourshift commander, but you can
find in me, and so I want tomake sure I'll steer you the
right way.
So they're not even going to geta shot at this.
I said what does this have todo with?
Is this with you, know, withthe shift commander?
No, well, the corporal.
I said okay, now we're gettingsomewhere.
Have you had a conversationwith the corporal?

(58:02):
No, because whenever I did, hehad that look on his face like
just get the heck out of my face, new guy.

Speaker 1 (58:08):
And I said well, wait a minute.

Speaker 2 (58:09):
Did he say that to you?
Well, no, but that's what hisface said.
I said wait a minute.
Did you just give this person amy face status?
Like, are you kidding me?
Like you just look at the moodand we just go ahead like it's
Facebook and put an emoji thereand they're angsty today.
Right.
So I said look, here's what youneed to do.

(58:31):
One go home.
You know, whenever you get home, like at the end of your shift,
take a night to process this.
The next day, I want you to goto that leader and I want you to
have a conversation and I wantyou to tell them what you feel
their delivery of whateverinformation was that got you to

(58:53):
this point, how that impactedyou, and I think you'll be
surprised at their response.
And so they did.
They go and talk to them andthey came back to me and they
said that was the best adviceever.
Everything that I thought wasthe intent behind the message
had nothing to do witheverything that I added to it

(59:14):
and it was a means ofencouraging that professional
conflict where there's nothingpersonal.
You know, a lot of people thinkthat that conflict is not a
good thing.
Professional conflict is a goodthing.
It's how we solve problems.
Absolutely Sure it is.
And so teaching these folks howto have that, because
communication across societydoesn't encourage it.

(59:36):
We communicate via thread orwhatever posting I'm putting,
and there's not really a wholelot of accountability, whatever
posting I'm putting, and there'snot really a whole lot of
accountability.
So when you start puttingpeople in an area that they have
to interact with each other alot of times with our younger
deputies they'll just, they'lljust recede back, they won't

(59:57):
even interact and some of themwould rather quit because that's
not being taught.
It's like well, wait a minute,let's encourage it.
That's how you're going to getto the bottom of this, and then
we can put it behind us and moveon to the next one.
And so there's a there's a wholeseven step process in
transitioning fromself-criticism to
self-reflection and thenstarting to focus on the things

(01:00:19):
now and behaviors that buildeach other on a daily basis,
like embracing each other'sgoals.
Build each other on a dailybasis like embracing each
other's goals.
Somebody comes to you and theysay for example, I used to hear
it all the time when I was justa deputy a deputy come in and
I'd say hey, what's your goal?
I want to go, I want to bepatrol one day.
Sweet, let me show you how toget there.
You know, this is the mindset bewhere your feet are, come in,

(01:00:42):
you know, be the best at thisjob, and that's what's going to
scream about your performancewhen it comes time for you to
move on to other things.
As opposed to what I used tohear back in 01, 02, and all the
way up until even the last fewyears, some people were like,
well, you'll never get there.
I've been doing this 15 years,I didn't get there.

(01:01:04):
Well also.
But that person is not sayingthat they tried either.
They didn't.
Sure, you know, if you tried,the laws of physics will tell
you as long as I keep moving inthis direction, I'm eventually
going to get there, right, youknow, one of these days.
And so just kind of teachingfolks how to pivot, that Some of
the other things too.
People aren't interruptions.

(01:01:25):
There are individuals that areseeking knowledge, and they can
be, you know, they can actuallypresent opportunities to make
some really good changes.
So, be available.
You know, when these, whenthese folks want to come
interact and they come withinitial issues or complaints.
One, let's get them on theright track of that, because, in

(01:01:46):
the name of venting, if all youdo is vent and there's never a
solution involved, well then, isthat really healthy?
You're not getting anything.
No, because you're just, you'redwelling.
You're dwelling in that process.
And so, talking about how tovent with a solution because one
thing I learned from being aleader is sometimes the best

(01:02:08):
solution is that of the boots onthe ground, because they are
interacting on a regular basis.
Make sure that we're available,Make sure that they have the
opportunity to interact in ahealthy manner that actually
feeds success.

Speaker 1 (01:02:25):
As a leader, if the only voice you're listening to
is your own, you're not leading.
Yeah, absolutely, you're notleading.

Speaker 2 (01:02:32):
And you know there's so many things that can be said
to that.
I always told people, you know,when I would interact, and
whether it be even just to sitdown for 10 minutes and have a
conversation about whatever itis that's on their mind, one of
the things that I would hear isyou know, I really appreciate
you taking the time to talk tome about that.
Or you know, I've talked toother people and nobody's given

(01:02:56):
me that advice.
And I was like and I said thenwhat does that say for who you
surround yourself with?
For who you surround yourselfwith, go, seek answers, fact
find from people you know aregoing to feed you the
information you need to gear youfor success.
Yeah, you know, and if you, dothat, if you do that, if you
seek it, you know, and that'show you get in front of that

(01:03:19):
rumor mill of corrections.
I tell people all the time I ama rumor killer.
Right, you hear something thatsounds conspiracy theorist,
because now they're crossingover into that hostile
attribution bias.
That's what that mindset takesyou.
Everything becomes conspiracyand it takes away your ability
to enjoy even each other'ssuccess.

(01:03:40):
So somebody gets promoted.
Oh, they only got that becausethey know this, or they only got
that because of this.
Well, no, they got it becauseit was their time and they
worked really hard.
But we're allowing that mindset, that hostile attribution bias,
to just sabotage us and thenthat becomes our reputation.
And then we wonder why nobodywants to touch us.

(01:04:00):
How come they're not picking me?
Probably because of theattitude I'm emulating.
You know I'm emulating.
You know that I'm pushing now.

Speaker 1 (01:04:08):
Yeah, I learned pretty early on watching when
people didn't get promoted.
You find out more about thatperson and the supervisor
they'll be on how they handlethe rejection than you ever will
on finding you know when theyget promoted or accepted.
Oh yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:04:25):
A hundred percent, and it just it blows my mind how
people act differently.
Like just so, some of thefeedback that we got just from
colleagues and then individualsthat taught this at their agency
, was the ability to attempt toapply this to their lives.
So they're actually takingactive steps in how they

(01:04:48):
interact.
And so, for example, when I seecolleagues go, they'll say
something that's veryconspiracy-ish and then you'll
see one of the others jump inand say you know what?
I don't think when that personwoke up this morning and made
that policy change, I don'tthink, while they were eating
their eggs and bacon thismorning, that they said, oh,

(01:05:10):
they can't wait to tick you offwith this policy change.
I think that's, and you knowwhat.
And to see them go my gosh,like you catch yourself and you
start to make those activechanges, and that's good culture
yeah, that's good culture tosee that kind of stuff happening
you know, and so I had a oldcolleague of mine, josh Barber

(01:05:30):
love him to death.
I mean, josh worked together atthe prison 22 years ago and you
know he he now works for anotheragency.
But he came and took thattraining to his agency.
He came down to Montgomery andsat through it.
He loved it, took it back andthen he shot me a message not
too long ago that said that thatwent down as the favorite

(01:05:52):
course of that year's in-serviceand that they really received
it and I knew if anybody couldreally sell it.
He's got the ability to justreally interact well and so tell
me what's going on with thetraining now.

Speaker 1 (01:06:04):
I know you've kind of broadened its scope recently,
so tell me about that.

Speaker 2 (01:06:08):
Yes, so it got.
It got a lot of exposure.
So I, um, I had the recent well, I won't say recent now, cause
it's been quite a bit of time,but I guess about a year ago, uh
, I interacted with, uh, acompany called Art Tactical.
I went to one of theirtrainings at another agency.
It was a de-escalation courseand it was phenomenal A

(01:06:29):
week-long de-escalation,specific for corrections, was it
Tim?

Speaker 1 (01:06:36):
It was Tim and Ian.
Ian, yep yeah.
We had Tim on here, episode 105.
Okay, yeah, he was on thepodcast here with Art tactical,
so okay, great instructor so Itell you I was blown away at
their ability to interact.

Speaker 2 (01:06:54):
You know a lot of folks that we get hyped up on
all that physical training whereme de-escalation falls right
down that behavior category thatI really, really just enjoy and
I was so blown away at theirprofessionalism and how they
interacted.
I thought, you know what youknow, I want to see some of the
other courses they had to offer,and so I did.

(01:07:16):
I looked at them and we endedup having an event where I got
to interact with Tim a littlemore and his colleague, his
director of operations for theWest Coast, tim Higgins, and
there was just a real clickthere.
I got to kind of sit andbrainstorm with him and I was
telling him about this trainingand he was just really into it.

(01:07:38):
Of course, you know we had alot of time that we were able to
kind of discuss that.
We had a Zoom over it, wediscussed it in detail.
I sent him a full-blownsynopsis on it, full lesson plan
breakdown, because it includestabletop exercises.
It gets people interacting witheach other.
You want those generationscommunicating and we're also
doing it.

(01:07:58):
There are very many times thatit's quite humorous because we
love to laugh at our ownbehaviors times.
That is quite humorous becausewe love to laugh at our own
behaviors but to see theminteract that well.
And he said you know, I just Ilove this course.
And he asked me what I thought.
He said how would you like tolaunch this?
And we'll send it across thecountry?
And I said, tim, I said nothingwould make me happier in the

(01:08:20):
world.
I, my goal out of this is Iwant people young people coming
into this field and people thatare in, because that's the
beautiful thing about thetraining is it addresses new,
existing leadership, all threecategories, all areas of your
career, from beginning to end.

(01:08:41):
And then how to not take ithome and ways to, if you start
seeing this in your home, someways that you can transition
that out.
And so I said so if I can savethem some of the grief and
mistakes that I made over theyear that I think really kind of
robbed me of the experiencebecause I didn't know how to

(01:09:02):
process what was happening.
If we can give them that on aproactive approach and start
seeing the response, then we'regiving them the tools to change
that culture themselves as theymove into those positions and
when you look at the end result,you're bettering your
communication amongst your staffbecause we're getting a better

(01:09:23):
understanding from all thosegenerational perspectives,
because we talk about all thosethings during those trainings.
So it's interesting when youstart getting multiple
generations in and we starttalking about the things about
other generations that we findtroubling and in reality you
start to see a real similaritywhen you start actually putting
those things to paper.

(01:09:43):
And so, anyway, they picked itup and then, on top of that,
they brought me on as a masterinstructor with them and I'm
going to start moving forwardwith them and we're going to try
to, you know, change theculture of corrections from all
facets, you know, from yourmental to your physical.
We will.
We want to be able to just goacross the world and right now

(01:10:06):
we're in several States and afew countries.
Cool.

Speaker 1 (01:10:11):
So I'll put the link to our tactical on here in the
show notes.
Make sure that everybody canget there.
If somebody wanted to get aholdof you, what's the best way to
get ahold of you?

Speaker 2 (01:10:20):
They can get ahold of me via phone or via email.
I'll be happy to give both.
My email is josh at art technet, and then my phone number is 9,
3, 1, 6, 2, 4, 44, 44.
Easiest phone number ever.

Speaker 1 (01:10:41):
Perfect.
Yeah, I'll get that put in theshow notes.
If you were going to recommenda book, if you could think of a
book out there that somebodyneeded to read that might give
them heads up on some of this.
Have you got one right off thetop of your head?

Speaker 2 (01:10:53):
oh my goodness you something that meant something
to you when you were readingwell, uh, so that well, there
was one recently that I've read.
You know, we we've been reallyfocused on leadership and you,
you know there's some books outthere, but there was one that I
didn't think that I would carefor until I read it and then I
realized, wait a minute, that'sactually a really that's a

(01:11:15):
really good book as far as forthe foundations of leadership
and so, yeah, the FiveDysfunctions of a Team.
That was a great one.
That was a great book.
That was a great book.
I really enjoyed the read.
That was the last book that Iread, uh, a couple of well,
about two months ago, right, sothat was a really good one.
As far as a team building, andyou know how to go about that

(01:11:39):
and he writes.

Speaker 1 (01:11:40):
all of his books are written and I can't.
I've got his.
I can't think of his name rightnow.
I'll put it in the show notesbut all of his books are written
from the point of view of astory to lead you through.
So it's kind of interesting.

Speaker 2 (01:11:54):
It's not just reading and regurgitating, it's
actually a story that has amoral or a purpose as you get
through it.
Well, and I enjoyed enjoyed thefact too that in dealing with
that team that they were tryingto to build and reshape, there
was every type of employee onthat team and just the the the

(01:12:15):
ways that they dealt andinteracted with each individual
and every one of them washandled differently, which
really the fact it wasn't a massdealing with.
So, for example, they weredealing with this one individual
.
Everybody didn't feel thatblowback.
That was an immediatecorrection on this individual
away from everybody else, andthey were solving problems.

(01:12:38):
And I just really enjoyed that.
I thought that was a great read.

Speaker 1 (01:12:41):
I'll get that book put in there if anybody wants to
take a look and link that Well.
Thanks, josh.
Thanks for stopping by the agreat read.
I'll get that book put in thereif anybody wants to take a look
and link that Well.
Thanks, josh.
Thanks for stopping by thePrison Officer Podcast.
I appreciate it.
It's a good conversation.

Speaker 2 (01:12:50):
Absolutely, Mike.
I appreciate you having me.
Thank you so much.

Speaker 1 (01:12:53):
Anytime, I will talk at you later and have a great
night.
All right, brother, you too.
Hey, before we go, I'd like totake a minute to thank one of
our sponsors.
Omni Real-Time Locating Systemis a company I've been working
closely with for years.
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(01:13:15):
your jail or prison.
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(01:13:37):
a set level.
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(01:13:57):
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113: Beyond Toxicity: Building Healthier Correctional Workplaces - Interview w/Josh Ryle

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}113: Beyond Toxicity: Building Healthier Correctional Workplaces - Interview w/Josh Ryle