115: From Rookie to Rank - Interview w/Matthew Hyde - The Prison Officer Podcast

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:34):
Hey guys, before I get to our first guest, I just
want to take a moment today andthank Pepperball.
You know they've been a sponsorof the Prison Officer Podcast
for more than three years andwithout their sponsorship I
wouldn't be able to bring thiscontent to you.
We wouldn't be able to havethese great conversations with
these leaders and trainers incorrections.
You know I used Pepperball formore than 20 years when I was

(00:59):
working in the institution.
It was something I believed in,so it was easy for me when I
got the chance to become amaster instructor for Pepperball
.
I get to go out and train lawenforcement and corrections and
I get to see you guys in thefield, so I really appreciate
that.
The great thing aboutPepperball is it gives the
officers the confidence to havea tool that they can use that

(01:21):
they know is going to work.
If you would reach out toPepperball wwwpepperballcom and
thank them for sponsoring thePrison Officer Podcast and,
while you're there, see all thenew things that are part of the
Pepperball family, hello andwelcome back to the Prison
Officer Podcast.
My name is Mike Cantrell andtoday I have a guest, matthew
Hyde.
Matthew is a leadershipstrategist, author and podcaster

(01:44):
with a decade of experienceleading high-pressure
correctional teams.
He served as a correctionalsergeant, cert commander, mobile
field force commander andinstructor.
He gained firsthand experiencein managing complex operations
and making high-stakes decisionsin these positions.
He's an FBI leader.
L, l, e, e, d A.
If you guys have seen that,it's a leadership trilogy, a

(02:11):
road, I'm going to cut that out.
He is an FBI leader, leadershiptrilogy award recipient and
holds a bachelor inorganizational leadership and an
MBA in management from Indianatech.
He specializes in translatinglessons learned and corrections
into actionable strategies forleaders in any environment,
helping teams buildaccountability, resilience and
high performance.
He's the author of a new book,from Rookie to Rank, and we'll
talk more about that.
He is passionate aboutempowering leaders to set clear

(02:34):
standards, lead with integrityand cultivate teams that thrive
under pressure.
Welcome to the Prison OfficerPodcast, matthew.
Hi, thank you very much,absolutely.
I'm glad to have you on here.
The people that listen to thispodcast regularly know when I've
got guests.
I want to know who they are andhow they got in corrections.
So start me out at thebeginning.
Where'd you grow up and how'dyour life progress from there?

Speaker 2 (02:55):
Yeah.
So I grew up like right in themiddle of Indiana, so nothing
going on around us.
Grew up playing prettycompetitive baseball, traveled
the country as a pitcher, hadsome scouting reports, teenage
mistakes, gotten that passion ofmy career of trying to be a
baseball player.
But I just wanted to live anormal life, went off to college

(03:16):
for a year, learned what it'slike to not have practice or
anything going on.
So all that freedom probablytoo much freedom One year of
college.
It was time to come back home.
I figured, hey, I'm just goingto be an entry-level guy
everywhere I go.
I was just going to accept that.
But as I got older, that reallyisn't what I wanted to do.

(03:38):
I saw people doing cool jobswith decent money and that's
what I wanted to do.
I saw people doing cool jobswith decent money and that's
where I wanted to go.
So I started looking into themilitary.
The National Guard hooked mepretty quick because I wasn't
sure if I really wanted to diveinto that.
I was still a mama's boy, Ididn't want to go too far from
home, but I still wanted to makea difference.

(04:01):
It's for something bigger thanmyself.
So I went down to Fort Benning.
11 Bravo Infantry made it allthe way through Training.
Accident shattered my arm, stillstayed in for about five years,
but off and on I had about fiveor six surgeries to try to get
okay.
So a lot of my time was notreally spent out in the field,

(04:23):
it was spent helping theofficers around or the higher
ranking sergeants.
So that's where I kind ofstarted noticing what they were
doing, what was working, whatwasn't working, and it was
really introduced me to ego anddifferent aspects of that.
Got out of the National Guard,started working some odd jobs I

(04:44):
was selling garage door partsfor a little bit.
I just really wasn't likingthat.
I had this dream of becoming apolice officer.
I was like, all right, let'sstart off in jail, let's see how
that goes.
Started off, I was hired as ajuvenile officer at first, which
is a totally different realm.
If anybody's ever workedjuvenile, that's that's its own

(05:07):
craziness.
They're starting to be some.
That's not police or correct.
No, that is a different world.
It is not the same there.
So there were some cutbacksgoing on and they were worried
about maybe cutting somejuvenile staff.
So what the sheriff did was heallowed some of the juvenile
staff to move over to the jailLike perfect, let's do that.

(05:27):
Fell in love with it right away.
Within like six months I wasalready becoming an FTO.
So that's when I really startedfeeling like somebody sees
something in me.
That's when I really startedfeeling like somebody sees
something in me and after that Ireally started to dig this
passion of all right, sosomebody sees something in me
and leading people and teachingpeople I know what I'm doing,

(05:49):
let's hone in on this.
And I just went 100 miles anhour there.

Speaker 1 (05:55):
Okay, so walk me back to the first time you walked in
the jail.
What was that like?
What do you remember?
What's the sights and sounds?

Speaker 2 (06:06):
of?
Had you ever been in jailbefore?
No, no, no.
Just for that.
I'm not built for jail.
There's no way I would last asecond, but I like having a key
to walk out it was different.
Anybody knows.
The smell is different.
The energy is thick.
It's either kind of calm orextremely hectic.
I think the first day I walkedin there's there's a dude like

(06:27):
mule kicking a door and staff'sjust like walking around, like
it's not a big deal.
I'm like what?
What is this?
And you know somebody's gettingbrought up.
So I'm like this is like this.
They're like this doesn'tusually happen, like it was just
a one of those first days oflike whoa dude right, but so how
large was your jail?

Speaker 1 (06:45):
how many inmates did you guys handle?

Speaker 2 (06:47):
I think we could house around 500, maybe a little
bit more if we needed to prettygood size jail yeah, pretty
decent size and we were, youknow, we needed an additional
area.
We were, we were bunking, youknow, three like three inmates
to one cell, so the hostilitywas really high.
We were kind of landlocked towhat we could do so we came in

(07:09):
at a pretty hectic time so maybethat was helpful once they did
expand.
But yeah, it was a pretty bigjail and a lot of, you know,
upset people.

Speaker 1 (07:20):
Yeah, people tend not to be happy when they go visit
jail.
It's usually not a good trip.
Some are You'd be surprised.
Well, yeah, there are some thatshow up.
Hey, good food, a mattress,exactly.
So you start off as an officer.

Speaker 2 (07:36):
Yeah, just right off as an officer.
Okay, and what's your next?

Speaker 1 (07:39):
as an officer.
Yeah, just right off as anofficer.
Okay, and what's your next stepafter officer?

Speaker 2 (07:43):
So I'd ride into FTO.
So I was, you know, about sixmonths in.
I started training people andthen I wanted to learn more and
I figured the best path to learnmore was to become an
instructor.
So I wanted to not just Tell meabout your yeah.

Speaker 1 (07:59):
I'd love to hear about your FTO program, cause
that's something that I've beendealing with a lot in the last
year.
Tell me about your guys' FTOprogram.
When, a when a new recruitshows up, a new trainee, what's
the program?

Speaker 2 (08:11):
Yeah, so when we've.
When I first started, it wasjust a hey, hi, here's a, here's
a trainee for you.
Today, like today, I haven'tput my food down yet.
I have a trainee for how manyweeks?
I don't even know this person.
Okay, I wasn't planning ontraining, but being an FTO and
then offering my ideas helpedout a lot because we had some

(08:35):
say For a while.
What we were doing is we werehaving all the ftos take a disc
assessment and we'd have all thetrainees take a disc assessment
and that way we knew who tomatch up with.
Because you don't want, like, adominant personality with a
very analytical personality likeme, very high analytical me

(08:57):
being trained by somebody who'smore of a dominant.
You know just that, doesn't?
You know to me they don't thinkanything through, so we would
bash heads constantly.
You know that it didn't helpour retention.
So, yeah, so we started doingthat.
And then we started having our,our officers go through an
actual fto certification course.
Okay, which there weren't a lotfor corrections, but we were

(09:19):
still sending them off to, likelaw enforcement, which is fine.
But you know, I started to seethese needs of like.
We need a corrections basedbecause it's it's not the same.
You know we're not stuck in acar with them for hours or weeks
.
You know we can at least weeks,months, we can at least expand
out and walk around and kind ofI don't know, it's just very

(09:41):
different.
But we're having them actuallycertified to at least talk to
other people, see what it's liketo FTO.
And then we had maybe asergeant that would overlook the
whole FTO program and thenmatch people and work with, with
the instructors, you know,during the academy.
How is this person acting?
What do you think we could workon?

(10:02):
Who do you think would matchbest with this person?
So still very informal.
I'm not sure where they're attoday, but I know a lot of
places are trying to advance thefto program because that's
where the retention is yeah,yeah, command presence.

Speaker 1 (10:15):
That's what I've been working on this year.
We developed the coach trainevaluate method for correctional
training officers, which was alaw enforcement one, but I took
and revamped it and we did ourfirst class in Michigan last
month.
Got another one coming up.
Oh, that's great.
Yeah, when people were lookingthere's not a correctional

(10:36):
training.
Well, there wasn't aspecifically correctional
training officer course thattalks about you know what
correctional officers need.
The thing that's hard is thetimelines.
What was your guys' timeline?
Because there is nothing acrossthis nation as a you know, a
set timeline.
It's all over the place, from acouple of days to a few months.

(10:59):
Yeah, you know what was yourguys's timeline?

Speaker 2 (11:02):
I think it was like six weeks okay that's not bad
from what I see, but I've been,I go places.
They're like, hey, we need thisperson ready, uh, two weeks.
Like uh, I know you want that,but that's yeah, we don't know
who we're getting.
They might need more time.
Or I think another issue issome people maybe don't pass FTO

(11:25):
and accepting.
That is okay, it's fine,there's a lot on the line.
And if they don't make itthrough FTO, we can't just put
butts in seats.
We also have to be open to you.
Didn't pass FTO, you go to theroad.
You fail FTO, you're done,that's it.
Corrections needs to be ifthey're going to be held to a

(11:45):
high standard or an equalstandard, it seems like in court
, then we have to do the samething, because I know all of our
guys would rather run shortwith a bunch of studs than a
packed house full of turds.
I don't, you know, I don't knowwhat, because that's your
backup.
Your family relies on that.
And if they don't can't pass FTO, that there's an issue here.

(12:07):
So I think accepting that youdon't pass is it's okay, it's
part, it's just part of the game.

Speaker 1 (12:14):
That's a great point and I won't ask you to answer
for where you were at, but Iwill mention that.
You know I talked to a lot ofCTOs and FTOs and the pressure
they get from admin, from thesheriff, from the warden, to get
people through, sometimes ifthey're not the right person,
and we all know it.
But recruitment and retentionis so high on the list right now
, they're like I don't care,push them through, I'll take

(12:36):
them for a few weeks, and then Igo to a class and I'm I'm
listening.
I've got three differentsheriff's departments in the
same state there and they'retalking about a guy that they
have all hired and fired in thelast like two and a half years,
you know, and this guy's justspreading hate and discontent
where he goes and but they'renot, they're not vetting them.

(12:57):
And you're absolutely right.
You hit the nail on the head.
I'd rather have one person thatI can trust than 10.
I can't working with me everyday.

Speaker 2 (13:06):
Yeah, and I think that you need to value what your
FTOs are saying, like ifthey're the, they're the one
like they'll be so honest.
But if you're like we don't, wedon't you're almost you hear it
as like we don't care aboutyour opinion.
Get them through.
You're like I don't care howwell they're trained, but the
one time that person screws up.

(13:27):
The first thing everybody asksis well, who trained them?
He told you they weren'tworking, it wasn't working out.
But they see it as like anattack where the FTO might be
picking and choosing, but you'vepicked that person to be an FTO
, so there's some level of trustand opinion in there.
Value that it's such animpactful.

Speaker 1 (13:47):
Part of leadership is just listening and being like,
hey, if you say so, but if itbackfires, but if you guys are
saying so Well, and I don't meanto be a little advertisement
here but one of the main thingswith FTO and CTO is the
documentation.
There's so many places that thedocumentation is well, they
were here today.

(14:08):
They were here today.
No, we've got to document dailyobservation reports.
What did they do?
How did they do it?
And for two reasons One, we canjustify why we kept them or why
we didn't, and then, two,you've got that backup as an FTO
.
When something comes becausethere is liability with training
and we may talk more about thatbeing an instructor and being a
training officer there'sliability.

(14:29):
So if you're in those positions, having that documentation is
what protects you, also down theroad when this person does
something that they weren'ttrained to do or that they
weren't supposed to do.

Speaker 2 (14:40):
Yeah, and I don't know if it's like an undervalue
of corrections Because you know,at county levels a lot of times
the sheriff will pick a roaddeputy to come in who's not
dealt with the jail.
So it's just kind of like theyalready have this view of the
jail it's like no big deal,whatever, we'll just transfer
people.

Speaker 1 (15:00):
But legally there's so much liability to it because
if the fto is like the sameliability that there is for the,
the patrol exactly.

Speaker 2 (15:05):
It's the same courtroom, it's the same judge,
it's the same jury.
So like same case.
What are we doing?
So if you really want toprotect yourself, you know, an
fto is such a good start inleadership like if you want to
learn how to manage people thatyou don't.
If you want to throw a baby inthe water, all right, you're an
FTO.
It is a hard job, it is noteasy and it's not meant for

(15:29):
everybody.
It's a big deal.
So that should be yourfrontline supervisor.
Do you have any FTO experienceUntil then?
We'd love to have you rank up,but maybe go FTO for a while and
see how you can manage oneperson, let alone 20, you know.

Speaker 1 (15:47):
Right.
So how did?
How long did you stay at FTO?
So, maybe a couple of years.

Speaker 2 (15:52):
Okay, and then you promoted Well.
So then I went to instructorand a lot of of times just to
kind of not spread too thinbecause I was already teaching
the new hire academy.
I didn't want to build acertain relationship there and
then go to FTO, Because FTO hideis not necessarily instructor
hide.
But I also want to open thedoor to other people.

(16:14):
So if I'm taking on somethingalready, I'll focus 100% on
instructor.
Because I got to go tospecialty schools, I got to go
through a whole bunch of stuff.
So FTO was just kind of like afoot in the door to show my
interest, Moved over toinstructor and then so yeah, it
wasn't maybe a couple years inFTO.

Speaker 1 (16:35):
Right and, as an instructor, what does that
entail in your department?

Speaker 2 (16:40):
So in Indiana you go through the Indiana Law
Enforcement Academy InstructorSchool.
Okay, it's a week-longcertification and then that
certifies you in to teachanything law enforcement within
the state of Indiana.
Okay, so I went through thatcourse okay, so I went through

(17:03):
that course.

Speaker 1 (17:03):
Yeah, everything from firearms to self-defense, or do
you go to additional trainingfor firearms and self-defense
and all?

Speaker 2 (17:06):
that separate.
So this, this would just belike how to be an instructor.
Here's your how to do yourdocumentation.
Here's the legal liability sideof instructing.
Okay, so it's like a basicweek-long course.
Then after that you go to youragency and you follow their SOPs
.

Speaker 1 (17:23):
Okay.
So yeah, train the trainer.
You're a general train thetrainer, you can step into any
of those and teach that.

Speaker 2 (17:29):
So if it's just like a.

Speaker 1 (17:30):
Tell me about that.
Yeah, go ahead.
I was just going to say tell meabout that.
What was that like as aninstructor, as a position there?

Speaker 2 (17:41):
Very busy.
Working nights was difficultbecause you know, hey, we've got
these amount of people thatneed trained in this.
Maybe pick a couple specialtiesand of course you know I really
like tactics.
So I started out as a taserinstructor.
You know, started looking intomore of the cert side.
I wasn't on cert yet but Ithink I was considering it Less

(18:04):
lethal, so I wanted to be an OCinstructor.
I went through a trainingcovered 40 millimeters, 37
millimeter, flashbangs, oc.
I became an OC instructor and Istarted doing that for a while,
certifying all the new jailstaff on Taser and OC, and a lot
of it was scenario based.
So it helped me expand my mindand kind of come up with these

(18:27):
crazy scenarios for them to gothrough.
So that helped out a lot.
Being an instructor helped outa ton because the only way to
really know something is to haveto teach it and I knew that.
So if I'm going to be the bestat something, I need to know how
to.
I should probably try to teachit Because now I have to be the
master, I'm the guy.
So yeah, it was very busy,rewarding, tiring.

(18:51):
It was all the emotions youknow it's like, oh geez, it's
fun spraying the new hires thefirst few times and then after
that it's just like God geez,does it take so long?
It's not.
Yeah, it loses its fun quickonce it gets real.
So it does.

Speaker 1 (19:06):
Yeah, well, that's cool.
So how long did you do that so?

Speaker 2 (19:13):
seven years.
I'm still an instructor now.
So, just nonstop.
Okay so what'd you step offinto?
Did you go ahead and move intocert?
Yeah, so I I joined cert around.
Uh, you know, the same time Ibecame an instructor I was just
a regular team member doing allthe the new guy grunt stuff, you
know.
But it was a good time, it wasfun getting started on that and

(19:37):
what exactly does theERT team doat your agency there?
So CERT at the uh, it was acounty level, uh.
So we did all call outs.
So it was cell extractions, uh,riot operations, hostage rescue
, high risk, high profiletransports, uh, really, anything
that essentially was to takeliability off staff.

(20:00):
So if it's something that youknow kind of guaranteed, maybe a
sort of use of force orsomething a little bit more
specialty, they would call CERTin to kind of take on that
liability.
Because we trained more, we hadmore.
You know, most of us were allinstructors already, so we teach
the stuff.
So, yeah, a little bit ofeverything full-time, or was it

(20:22):
a full-time game?
I wish it had been a lot, a loteasier, but I mean, we were
busy, but we still had to honorour shift.

Speaker 1 (20:28):
So okay, so you went from there, I, I got here.
That you're.
We're also the mobile fieldforce commander.
Walk me through that.

Speaker 2 (20:39):
Yeah.
So in 2020, our CERT commanderwent to the road.
So we had a process and Iwasn't.
I wasn't, I had no rank yet Iwas like, all right, well, it's,
it's open to anybody on theteam.
So I I went for it.
I studied really hard, I workedhard, I went through the
interview process and the team'sabout.
They're 25 years old at thetime, so I became the first

(21:00):
non-ranking CERT commander.
So I had no formal rankwhatsoever and that's typically
not what happens on that team.
So definitely learned tonavigate some emotions there.
But that was 2020.
So there were some riots andsome stuff going on around the
country where a lot of agencieskind of just got caught

(21:23):
unprepared.
They had the tools, they hadall this stuff.
Not one person trained in it,so they were just going to throw
people to the wolves and hopefor the best.
But, as we learned, that is ahorrible idea and they got
caught, and so we didn't want toget caught.
So the sheriff decided well,since CERT already has the riot
gear, and they got caught, andso we didn't want to get caught.
So the sheriff decided well,since CERT already has, you know
, the riot gear and they'vetrained in riots, let's go ahead

(21:45):
and have them start a mobilefield force unit.
So we get an email saying thatMatt Hyde is the mobile field
force commander.
So I looked at my jail commander.
I was like what is mobile fieldforce?
I have no idea even what thatis.
He goes.
What is a?
What is mobile field force?
I have no idea even what thatis.
Um, he goes, I don't know, dude.

(22:05):
So we Googled it, found out.
I was like, cool, perfect.
A couple of weeks later I flydown to Texas for a week to go
learn how to take on rideoperations and stuff like that.
Come back, train my team.
They would end up training theagencies within our County.
So the the local lawenforcement agencies were
calling us up to and then we hadthis big training which I
really wanted to unite everybodytogether.
So on paper it sounded verysimple.

(22:28):
But as jail guy no rank, riotoperations, police stuff let me
tell you the cops loved that.
They were very, very receptiveto the jailboy with no rank
telling them what to do.
So navigating that wasdifficult, but we did it.
So we did really well.
Ended up, they all adopted ourprogram.

(22:50):
So, yeah, successful, but a lotto take on.

Speaker 1 (22:56):
If you don't mind me asking, what training or who'd
you go to down there in?

Speaker 2 (22:59):
texas safari land.
We did safari lands rideoperations.
That was a really good course.
Really enjoyed it, right in themiddle of the.
They've been doing it quite awhile yeah yeah, and it's cool
working with some places becausea lot of the places down there
had had been through largeprotests.
So you know, we had some dallasswat guys.
Uh, it was in weatherford,texas, where they actually had a
pretty big protest therethemselves over statues.

(23:21):
So hearing their firsthandexperience was really
eye-opening.
It was taught by some officersfrom Houston PD who I guess they
have over like 250demonstrations a year so they're
very well-versed in it.
But yeah, the middle of adesert riot trainingiana guy, I
was not comfortable yeah, 100degrees and cs, what, what more

(23:46):
could you ask?

Speaker 1 (23:47):
man?
It was a blast, I tell you so,coming into that position, and I
think that's a position that alot of people step into, whether
they stay inside corrections orwhether they take on team
leadership.
But and that we'll get intoyour book a little bit more.
But you talk about from rookieto rank and you're dealing with
people who outrank you, peoplewho probably have more time than

(24:07):
you, people who possibly havemore experience in some areas
than you do.
I was put in that positionmyself.
How did you deal with it?
What?
What was it?
What did you learn from that?
Maybe you made some mistakes upfront, that's fine.
But what did you learn fromthat on how to deal with that?

Speaker 2 (24:23):
Well.
So I think it was nice becauseI didn't have an option.
It was there.
I couldn't be like.
So it's like, dude, you got tofigure this out.
You can't come in hot and heavy.
That's exactly what they'reexpecting you to do.
So I could have came in andbeen like this is what we're
doing.
We're changing the game.
I'm in charge, and there wasguys on the team.
They had been on the teamlonger than me, they had rank,

(24:46):
so on paper they 100% shouldhave been picked over me, but I
had to kind of not separatethose guys to show who's in
charge, which is maybe whatthey're expecting.
Maybe what a lot of peoplewould do is show force.
But what I want to do is bringthem together and acknowledge
you guys have been on thislonger than me.
You have Frank.
What do I need to know?

(25:07):
Where do we need to be?
So I mean, it was difficultbecause there's also staff that
didn't agree with that.
There were sergeants thatweren't on CERT, that disagreed
with that, and they wanted toshow that, well, you may be cert
commander, but I'm the sergeantyou know.
It's like okay, dude, we're I.
I know everybody knows who youare, what you are.
So then I kind of establishedthis when you walk into in the

(25:30):
cert locker room, man, there'sthere is no rank, like we're
just positions.
But when it comes down to we're, we're a team, we're going to
work together, we're going toget through this.
I know better than you.
It's just when things go wellyou guys get the praise.
When things go bad, I go to thecorner office and get told about
it Like that's, that's it.
I'm going to take the lashingsfor you guys.

(25:51):
I'll.
I'm the scheduling of thetraining.
I do all this.
I just make sure you guys runthe team.
So it took some time but oncethey saw my intentions it got
better.
And then how my goal was toadvance the team.
I wasn't thinking like a teammember, I was thinking like a
team commander.

(26:11):
Thinking like a team commander.
I'm not thinking of the smalltactics stuff or the team
movement stuff.
So I think that's what helpedwas you know, maybe just a
different mindset.
It was interesting navigating itthough.

Speaker 1 (26:28):
I think you're absolutely right.
You know you are the teamcommander.
You're not going to be theperson on the line standing out
front going follow me boys, andthat takes us.
A lot of people take that asbeing okay.
I'm the team commander,everybody's going to follow me.
We don't follow you.
We decide who's going to be inwhat position, we decide what

(26:48):
tactics are going to, what thisteam's going to specialize in,
and then and I did it quite abit and I think it makes a
difference and then, once wedecide all that, now I go grab a
batonon, I go grab a mask and Igo stack up in the back of the
squad.
Those are the leaders.
They're the ones that are goingto be on there, they're going
to be reaching out to thatcommander or that.
You know the person with rankin a real situation.

(27:10):
And yes, I'll be sitting in thetrailer at the end of that
phone or radio for you.
But during training it, nothing,I think, builds that
camaraderie more than just tograb a baton and get in the back
of the squad and do the drills,do the gas, do everything with
the people and they feel you aspart of that team.
But if we're always, and I hadso many of those that would
stand there and watch useverybody go through the gas,

(27:32):
you know, and they'd laugh andthey'd heckle and they'd do this
.
They never went through it.
Well, well, there's no respectwhen you come out on the other
side of that no, you know,that's my opinion.

Speaker 2 (27:41):
Yeah, it's well, if I'm the one always making all
the decisions, what do I needyou for?
Like, if I'm the one with withthe weapon system, then I don't.
I don't, like, I need everybodyand I need them to replace me.
So I'm going to put you inpositions to make calls like
that.
You're on this team, just likewe would bring on a brand new
person.
You know we had a I wouldestablish a pretty decent, you

(28:02):
know, vetting process, but onceyou're on the team now it
started you need to bringsomething to the team.
There's only so much we'regoing to teach you.
We'll teach you the basics, butyou need to bring something.
And if you're on this team,you're a leader and I'm going to
develop leaders, um, and futuresergeants, and you know, future
jail command or, like you knowpeople that can think outside

(28:22):
the box, um, and if you can't dothat, if you need me to make
every call for you, I don't needyou right like I've got my
stuff going, because my headset.
I have all the high rankingstaff talking.
Yeah, I have team leaders thatneed to be going to do that
right.

Speaker 1 (28:42):
And the way to give them and grow them is to give
them the situations where theyget to make those decisions.
And it's not just listening toyou, just listening to me, isn't
the best way to do anything.
I need people out there who canmake decisions, because they're
the ones with the eyes on,they're the guys who are facing
it, who are seeing what's reallygoing on, not having it relayed

(29:02):
, yeah.

Speaker 2 (29:03):
So yeah, I think it was important that I would have
it to where, since I'm the teamcommander, I only really need to
be communicating with the teamleaders when it came to assert
stuff.
Like if it was just we couldtalk like a very cool.
But if you had a question aboutwhen's this or what's training,
like what's going on, like youneed to go to your team leader,
not me.
So I would kind of take that aslike hey, team leaders, why are

(29:26):
your guys coming to me?
What do they not feelcomfortable coming to you?
Or because now I'm thinking youknow for an operation that's
who you need to be talking to.
So we're establishing thatearly.
If you have a question, you goto your team.
Like your team leader is yourperson, that is your team
commander, and that chain ofcommand helped out a lot because
during a large operation theywould already be used to going

(29:48):
to that person.
So we were kind of instillingthat and I put a lot of value on
team leaders and everybody else.

Speaker 1 (29:56):
And that transcends teams.
For me, if you're working ahousing unit and inmates aren't
asking you questions as anofficer, you're not running that
housing unit.
If you're a sergeant and yourofficers aren't asking you
questions, then you're notlooked at as a leader.
So I think that transcendsteams.
That's corrections as a whole,yeah, and there's for me

(30:16):
training.

Speaker 2 (30:17):
It might have sounded very nitpicky, or don't talk to
me, but really I'm justtraining you to use like chain
of command is one, not optionalobviously, but but it I mean it.
It teaches a lot more inleadership, so just you know,
knowing who to go to next is isalways you know, I don't know.
There's a lot more to it thanjust the nitpicky stuff.

Speaker 1 (30:40):
Yeah, and I think I mentioned a couple episodes ago
when I was talking aboutleadership, it also gives the
person in charge the opportunityto fix that problem.
If you go past them, if youskip them, they don't have the
opportunity to take care of thatproblem.
They don't have the opportunityto make decisions.
They don't have the opportunityto bond with their officer.

(31:01):
So yeah, I'm a huge chain ofcommand.

Speaker 2 (31:04):
Yeah, and I think a lot of people.
They want people to come to you, even if it skips the person.
Like open door, like yeah, butI need them to also handle it
Like that's their gig.
I don't mind helping you ifthey're not here or whatever.
Or if you don't feelcomfortable there's something,
then there's more to that, butyou need to go to that person.

(31:26):
That's the next in line, yeah.

Speaker 1 (31:31):
So apparently you made Sargent.
Yeah, yeah so when did thathappen?

Speaker 2 (31:37):
So I I had tested the first time and I failed the
test.
So the the testing process waslike read four or five books,
read all policies, procedures,take a.
Can I?

Speaker 1 (31:48):
ask which books man?
I'm always interested in.
What leadership books?
Do you remember any of them?

Speaker 2 (31:53):
So I mean there was one.
It was like basic corrections,case law and stuff, and then I
think John Maxwell's Five Levelsof.
Leadership was one of them.
No, yeah, I don't rememberbecause I took it twice.
So I read a lot of books.
They were good books, they weredecent, it was just a lot.

(32:13):
I've been COing for a while, notreally reading books I read
some Jocko stuff and listened tothe podcast and stuff like that
.
But then to take a test Ihaven't taken a test in forever,
I don't even know what to doanymore so I missed it by like
2%.
A test like man, I haven'ttaken a test in forever, I don't
even know what to do anymore.
So, uh, I missed it by like twopercent.
And that's in the middle of mebeing cert commander.
So that was a you know, prettyembarrassing um, you know

(32:36):
battling that because like, oh,this cert commander can't even
pass.
Yeah, it's a test man, like I,I can, I'm still still leading
people.
But then I take it the secondtime and I pass.
I get put on the list.
At that time, around 2020, I wasworking in video courts because
of COVID, which helped out,because I was taking on mobile

(32:58):
field force and CERT and there'sa lot going on.
It was hard to do it on shiftbecause then I'd have to do it
at home.
So the jail commander it onshift, because then I'd have to
do it at home.
So the jail commander, theyneeded somebody to run their
video court systems In betweencourt hearings.
I would do that.
So it was Monday through Friday, holidays off.
I'm loving it.
They're like hey, hyde, you'renext up for sergeant.
Do you want to take it?
I'm like no, no, I got a reallygood schedule.

(33:21):
I have never cared about titlesor rank.
It does not mean anything to mewhatsoever.
Like your character is what itshows and I know I'm a good
leader.
I don't need a label or asergeant label.
But then it really didn't comeup to me like all right, well,
we're eliminating your position.

(33:41):
Do you want sergeant now?
Like, yeah, yeah, all right, sothen.
So, yeah, I go from from that.
You know cert, high speed, goodmentalities.
I know who's coming on there.
They're easy to mold, they'rejust a good group of people.
And then I go to night shift,to a shift that's known to be a
little wilder and that wasdifferent.

(34:03):
So you know they're thinking,oh, we got the circ commander
coming now where he's gonna makeus work and do like all this
stuff.
And yeah, I just laid low for alittle bit.
You know it's because I was thenew guy to their shift.
I couldn't just come in therelike all hot and heavy.
I'm the new guy, so it was veryinteresting.

Speaker 1 (34:20):
Big big culture shock there, uh you know that's
something I don't think I'vetalked about on here, but it
depends.
The military has their ownthoughts on this and I've heard
different leaders talk about it,but it's something.
When you become a leader, dayone is not the time to come in
there and just start changingstuff or just start, you know,

(34:42):
throwing that rank around.
Some places say, you know 60days, some say 90.
I've heard at least a couple ofweeks, and your job during that
time as a leader is to observe,not just observe what's going
wrong, observe what's goingright, because you want to keep
that stuff, and I think that'ssomething people forget a lot.
They come in with this well,now I've got rank, I'm in charge

(35:04):
, I'm going to fix this.
Well, I guarantee you, noteverything needs to be fixed.
I mean, even at the worst, youcan find things that are working
or you wouldn't be there.
So, yeah, that's my advice tonew supervisors.
I don't know what the timelineis, whether it's a week or two
or three months, but walk inthere and observe.

(35:24):
That's your job.
Your only job is to observe andfind out what's going right and
what's going wrong, and thenyou go in there and enhance
what's going right the most youcan help them get it, get it
tied together, and then you canstart working on how to correct
or, uh, you know, fix thechallenges of what's not working
at the time.

Speaker 2 (35:42):
Yeah, I think that's a good point.
It's you're the new guy.
You're the new guy to them.
Everyone knows who you are.
Everyone knows you're asergeant.
Nobody cares.
That's the thing.
Like cool, right, awesome.
Like because there's peoplelike I could be sergeant, like
it's not who cares, like let'ssee how are you going to take
care there's a timeline to it,because your people will let you

(36:03):
know, just like the brand newperson that walks into the
corrections.
We all know nobody's talking tothat person.
You're brand new.
You kind of got to earn yourscars a little bit, earn your
trust, because these areinstitutionalized people as well
.
They get sucked into it as well.
So they have that mentalitythat you're new.

(36:23):
This is how we're going to dothings.
So if you try to match thatpower trip to both ends, it's
not going to work becausethey're testing you.
You're going to test them.
So if you're just like, hey,this is your shift, let me know
what I can do, because there'sstill clerical stuff I had to
learn.
So I'm trying to learn how to bea sergeant.
I got to do my job first beforeI can start telling people how
to do theirs.
You know, I think my first everlike thing I said on the radio

(36:46):
was I need somebody to cleanthis mess up from the kitchen,
like that was it.
I wasn't telling people what todo.
Like there's like a pizza messor something.
I said, ah, that's one of, Ican't let that slide.
But it kind of set thisstandard for me, like all right,
he likes things, but he's goingto leave us alone.
As long as we do our job, we'regood to go.
That's how I treat it in me aswell.

Speaker 1 (37:08):
So you don't have to what you're saying and tell me
if I'm wrong.
What you're saying is in orderto lead people, I don't have to
lead them step by step.
I have to set the expectation,but I don't have to tell them.
I need somebody to show up witha broom and a dustpan and a mop
and a trash can Let them figurethat out.
They know how to do that andthe only thing you're doing is

(37:29):
just uh, you know, making themfeel bad, um, making them feel
like you don't value them.

Speaker 2 (37:34):
Yeah, it's just about establishing a standard and you
know, we know a lot of uscommander's intent, like you
know what expected out of me.
Like, if I don't want to betold come clean the kitchen
which is a lame reason to haveyour sergeant come talk to you
then just have that cleaned up.
But that also sets the state thetone for my view on cleanliness

(37:55):
around the facility.
Like I don't like messes, Idon't want.
I just at least have, like atany moment somebody could walk
in.
That's you know, being a certcommander.
At any time the sheriff couldbe doing a tour with another
very high-ranking politicalfigure, and if my locker room is
not put together, it's a directreflection of me.

(38:15):
So everything is going to be putaway, everything's going to be
clean, because you never knowwho's going to show up and
what's going to happen is we hada jail commander that was like
he would come in.
He'd be like, hey, why is thisa mess?
Had a jail commander that waslike he would come in.
He'd be like, hey, this is, whyis this a mess?
Like it was, like I made themess, but essentially what it
showed him was are you evenwatching your people?
He caught me right and there'sno right answer.

(38:35):
Like, obviously I am.
Yes, I am.
They're leaving messes, that'sokay.
Yeah, you're gonna lose.
So, yeah, I think it's justestablishing standards early,
but carefully.

Speaker 1 (38:46):
Yeah, and tell me if I'm wrong, but I think that ties
over to inmates too.
Now you may have the inmate whohas a learning disability that
you have to guide a little more,but inmates hate it when you
come over there and go.
I need you to do this, this,this and this.
You know?
No, I need you to do this andhow you get there.
As long as it's within ourrules and policies, I'm okay

(39:07):
with.
Inmates can have good ideas onhow to do stuff.
Also, I've learned a lot fromhow to do things on inmates by
listening.

Speaker 2 (39:14):
Yeah, I think I've learned most of my leadership
through dealing with inmates.
You know there's when I waskind of when a new sergeant
would come to our shift.
They're like all right, so howdo I do this?
I was like well, it's not muchdifferent than your housing Firm
, fair and consistent.
Don't nag all the time or elseyou're going to get pushback.

(39:34):
Their pushback is a littledifferent, but you still have to
build rapport and humanbehavior is not much different.
So when I tell people it'sworded bad, but it's like, the
way I treated inmates was theway I treated staff in a
leadership sense of course, likefirm, fair, consistent.
It's setting standards.
When Hyde is here, this is theexpectation He'll stay out of

(39:58):
our way.
If we stay out of his way, cool, I know you're here, I'm here.
We kind of both don't want tobe here, but let's not make it
bad.
You know like, and it's likenitpicking.
You can be the guy that goesaround and writes everybody up
for every little thing, but thatis so exhausting, just like
being a supervisor.
I can go and nitpick everythingan employee does and try to

(40:21):
write them up and get the, butthen you're just, I don't know,
mean Like it's, it's like you'retrying to prove something or
you or you can grow thatemployee, and then you don't
have to watch them as much.

Speaker 1 (40:32):
If you teach them how to do things theirself, what is
it, you know?
Teach a man to fish.
It'll feed him forever.
Give him a fish It'll last hima day.
The same goes with training andinstruction and knowledge.
Don't don't go in there tellingthem all the time.
Let them figure it out, letthem decision make, and then
they're going to be able to makedecisions on their own, without
you, and that's a great thing.

(40:54):
That's what every leader wants.

Speaker 2 (40:55):
Yeah, I didn't like when a supervisor or sergeant or
lieutenant would come down andstart telling me how to do
things because I got a systemgoing.
It kind of interrupts my reportbecause the way I deal with
people is not the way you do,like you've got maybe a
different report, you've beenhere a lot longer so you can do
things differently, but it'skind of like that I've already
told them.
No, I need you to just let medo my thing, because you know we

(41:19):
had a lot going on.
I couldn't go around and justmake every decision for everyone
else like, well, well, hyde'snot here, I can't make a
decision.
Well, you're not going to grow.
You could be my boss one day,right like the way rank works.
Like you could be my lieutenant.
I need to, I need you.
I'm training you to be thatlike I'm.
I'm all for it.

(41:39):
But if I can train my boss,I'll definitely try to do that
the correct way, instead oftrying to prove myself.
I've already proved myself.
I got a sword.
Sure, cool, got it.

Speaker 1 (41:49):
Yeah, yeah, you're right, you're right, let's.
Let's switch gears just alittle bit.
So let me see here it's alwayshard for me to do this, but uh,
there's your book, from rookieto rank, and uh, I'll have a
link, of course, in the shownotes to that for people to see
where to buy that at.
But so what started you downthe path of wanting to write a

(42:09):
book?

Speaker 2 (42:10):
Yeah.
So I really started studyingleadership.
It was like human behavior andhuman you know just how the
brain works has always beenreally interesting to me and I
the more I studied leadership,the more I would get kind of
frustrated with Maybe people'sview on it or everybody.
Like if you're in a rankingposition, you're now a leader.
You're not.

(42:31):
Leadership is an action.
You know you may be in aleadership position, but it's
how you treat that position.
If you're going to beauthoritarian, if you're just
going to call yourself a leaderand you know, then there's
people that are like resumeleaders.
They go to all these differentleadership academies, these
little three-day courses likewell, I passed this, so

(42:56):
obviously I'm a leader now, butnow go take care of why you're
losing people.
Your retention is horrible,your staff is not.
There's maybe some things goingon, so you're not actually
leading people.
So I think it was a good wayfor me to kind of get some
emotions out as well, just myview of things and there's not a
lot of corrections basedthere's that's out there.

(43:17):
But you know, I kind of want togo against the mold, you know,
not so much rah-rah leadership,just kind of you know of my view
and my experiences andhopefully people can kind of
translate that to theirs,because I truly care about
correction staff everywhere andif I can maybe simplify some

(43:37):
things, then that's what Iwanted to do.
It worked for me really well andI wanted to kind of just put it
on paper and kind of spread theword.
So, yeah, it was a bucket listitem for me, I had just gotten
done with my MBA.
Just put it on paper and kindof spread the word.
So, yeah, it was a bucket listitem for me, I'd just gotten
done with my MBA.
I was like, well, I can do adoctorate and do a dissertation,
or I can be cool and write abook.
It's like not a lot of peopleget to do that, so let's do it,

(43:57):
it'll look cool.

Speaker 1 (43:59):
Okay, I will mention one way to find this.
If you go towwwtheprisonofficercom, when
that page comes up, I have alist of correctional leadership
books there.
There's a button, click that.
Matthew's book is on therealong with several others.
It's something I'm trying tocollect into one place because,
you're right, five, 10 years agothere were like maybe 10 books,

(44:23):
maybe you know, and nowcorrections is getting a little
bit more.
We've got a few podcasts, We'vegot a few books.
We're talking about correctionsmore and not about people keep
trying to and I get, I getemails every week.
Hey, I survived prison, I did20 years.
Now I want to be on yourpodcast.
My podcast isn't for that.

(44:45):
My podcast is for correctionalofficers and correctional
officers, correctional staff,people who've walked in the gate
and worked there, and we'restarting to see more of that
written by the people who walkedin the gate, worked there, and
I'm really glad to see thosestories coming out and these
books on leadership so I thinkcorrections just painted
differently like everything's tv, so it's.

Speaker 2 (45:08):
It's the 60 days in stuff that is.
It's that does not reflectcorrections, staff at all or any
.
Any sort of show kind ofglorifies the inmate.
You know, then you watch copsand it's glorifying the cop.
Or you know, like there's,there's nothing.
There might have been like ashow, but even then I don't
watch them.
My kids love it.
My wife's always like is thathow it is like it's so different

(45:30):
everywhere, like I have no idea, but a lot of times it doesn't
paint the officer very well.
So I think it's great and youknow, in this community is
growing, we, we all try to helpeach other out and, and you know
, expand it.
Uh.
So it's, you know not, it's nota very high ego thing and we,
we all want success for eachother, because there's times
where it's time to kind of moveon.

(45:51):
You get burnout and I don'twant to be done with it, so I
want to help.
That's how I get through someof my, I guess, traumas or
whatever that I've collectedalong the way.
If I can help somebody else outthrough mine, then yeah, no.
And I think that's kind of thementality of all of us is we
always want to help and it's avery tight knit group.

Speaker 1 (46:15):
Yeah, I mean, I retired five years ago.
I could have planted a gardenand put a big hat on and, you
know, raise peppers, but Iwasn't done.
You know, when you get to theend of your career, you get
farther in your career and youget to make a difference with
people and you get to helpcorrections as a whole.
There's a lot to that and Ithink you're right, it is
cathartic, it is.

(46:35):
It has helped me putting thisstuff down, putting it on the
podcast.
I'm being able to talk about it.
It's helped my family.
We've had an open conversationabout, you know, what they put
up with for years and I wasn'talways the nice person when I
came through the door after ashift.
So we've had those.
But let me get back to your bookI'm going to.
I've got a couple of thingshighlighted that I read in here

(46:57):
and I thought they wereinteresting.
I want to have you expand onthese a little bit.
One of the chapters you have inhere is leading through change,
and the little sentence thatcaught me was people don't
resist change because they'relazy, and I think that's the
thought that people have aboutwhy they resist change.
It says people resist changebecause it challenges what

(47:20):
they've already mastered, and Ithought that was a pretty cool
sentence.
Expand that on me and talkabout that.

Speaker 2 (47:28):
Through.
You know.
One thing I think every leadershould try to learn is how to
lead through differentgenerations.
You know you.
You talk, the way you hearthings from like a 25 year vet,
and how they talk about oh,we've done it for years like
this.
We used to just do this, and Ithink it challenges their

(47:49):
thought of being the new guyagain.
So they, they know everythingthat you're a brand new guy.
They know everything, they'vebeen through it.
They know everything that youyou're a brand new guy.
They know everything, they'vebeen through it.
So now here comes this changethat you know.
They either quite don'tunderstand or don't understand
because they're going to have tolearn something again and I
think that challenges a lot ofpeople and it hurts their, their

(48:10):
ego, because they don't.
They don't see the sense in it.
But yeah, I just kind ofwatching the behaviors of people
.
They see like why.
Yeah, just kind of watching thebehaviors of people.
They see like why I don't thinkit's laziness, because they've
been dealing with change forever.
Change happens, so changemanagement, corrections is so
fast.
But yeah, I think it just makesthem feel like the new guy

(48:30):
again and that kind of hurtstheir ego.
Instead of being open andknowing that's part of it.
They're going to have to askthe new guy a question Like what
does this mean?
And a lot of times they don'twant to do that because I don't
go to that person.
For that they come to me.
So, yeah, that's just kind ofbeen my thought of it.

Speaker 1 (48:50):
It's a good point.
I did an article for AmericanJail Association called Reverse
Mentorship and I think there issomething to be said about
letting you know the newgeneration teach the older
generation, and this isn't thefirst time this has happened.
When computers came in becauseyou're talking to a guy here
that started out withtypewriters and carbon paper you
know I've been around for alittle bit so I saw many changes

(49:12):
.
I went from lever hauls tohaving a board with our own
toggles to call and control, toopen a door.
So change has happened in mycareer.
But to be able, we did thatduring the computer era, when
those came into the system.
The newer people and I was oneof them that was all into
computers and loving video games, even though it was like

(49:32):
Pac-Man but we were the onesthat went in and taught the
older generation how to use thecomputer.
And you build bonds there.
It's reverse mentorship, butit's also training and you're
also building bonds betweenthose two generations.
So I think that's something wecan look at now.

Speaker 2 (49:48):
Yeah, and it just kind of shows some humility on
the older generations.
You have to adapt.
Anything tactical, you have toadapt.
It is what it is.
But there's some guys that aredefinitely stuck in their ways
and things are going to go thisway.
We've always done it this way,but I think we should value
those guys as well.
They have seen a lot more.

(50:08):
They've experienced with a lotless, so I always found value in
having those guys come induring a policy change and
letting them be part of it, atleast voice to where the higher
up people are answering thequestions and they can maybe
have a more of an understandingwhen it rolls out or feel like
they had a say in it.

(50:29):
That helps out a lot morerather than everybody learning
at the exact same time and, youknow, gaining frustrations.
At least these the older.
You show value in the peoplethat have been there through all
of it, the good and thehorrible.

Speaker 1 (50:46):
So, yeah, yeah, and, as an administrator, if you're
going to roll out a new programand you're going to have new
instructors, get one of theinstructors that's new, newer
generation, get one of theinstructors that's older
generation and have them teaminstruct.
That.
That's some of the bestinstruction.
Staff are going to accept thatbecause you've got both

(51:08):
generations up there talkingabout it.
So if you can do that, if youcan do that team instruction and
mix the generations, you'regoing to get better reception on
that.
Yeah, yeah, definitely so.
Another one was hardconversations and honest
corrections.
Disengaged staff don't improve,they disconnect and, more
importantly, they may recruitothers to join, to join them in

(51:32):
disengagement.
Isn't that the truth?

Speaker 2 (51:35):
Yeah, stuff spreads quick inside, especially
emotions, and if newer staff orstaff that are trying to fit in,
they're going to have to followthe path of everyone else.
And if it's disgruntled, thenthat's the culture.
Unfortunately, it's hard for alot of these guys to not wear

(51:58):
their emotion all the time, butnegativity spreads just like
anything else inside of afacility.
There's no secrets it spreadsfast.

Speaker 1 (52:08):
And everybody knows the old guy sitting in the back
corner that just he doesn't likeanything.
And that's what you have toprotect those newer recruits
from.

Speaker 2 (52:19):
Being an instructor.
You deal with that all the timethat I have to be here for
training.
I've already trained on thisfor 20 years.
Why do I need to come back?
Because it's legal liability.
Because when the courts ask thelast time you were trained in
this and they say 15 years ago,that's not acceptable.
We need to do it all the time.
So you need to know that, knowthat.
But that's the.
That's the person that'll sayyou don't need this, we don't

(52:40):
ever use any of this.
Um.
And then they start like nowwe're just kind of making stuff
up and you know it spreads soquick and yeah, that's the
negativity that's one thing Idon't miss.

Speaker 1 (52:52):
Was you know, annual training or whatever you call it
?
Where you're at and you go inthere as an instructor, in the
back half of the room hasnewspapers and their arms
crossed and this, this look likelet's get this the hell over
with.
Well, now you know, I'm retired, so I go out and train at
different agencies.
Well, the people at thosetrainings they want to be there.

Speaker 2 (53:11):
Yeah, so it's such a different world to go out and
train a room full of people thatare excited and they're engaged
and they're wanting the stuffthan it is to have to force
through ethics training, yeahand you know I would you know,
or whatever your annual trainingwhere you have to like some
people need to sit up front,like not everybody can pack in
the back, like we'd have peoplepull up chairs, not to a table,

(53:32):
just to sit, like guys, it'sokay, just scoot up, it's fine.
Like I still see you, I see youback there, you're there.
But that kind of showed peopleI don't know that, maybe they're
special, maybe I just looked atit a little bit differently.
Why do I have to sit up here?
They get to sit back there.

(53:52):
How do I earn my spot to sitwherever I want?
So it's like regulating thatclassroom.
But yeah, you could tell theydidn't want to be there, which
showed everyone else that thatthat's you know.
But you have to be there Like Idon't know, you're no, you you
joined this job.
Your training's a thing.
You're going to train a lot, oryou should.
There's places that have none.

(54:14):
We're doing double than what weneed to.

Speaker 1 (54:19):
So, yeah, not everybody sees it like that,
though I'll tell you, when Imade my Lieutenant, this was one
of the craziest things.
So there were a couple ofLieutenants who weren't good
Lieutenants and they decided totake me under their wing, and so
all three of us it's a bigenough agency that all three of
us were going to annual trainingtogether that week and they
both came up to me and said youknow, you need to sit on the

(54:41):
front row.
And I was like so that you knowwe can show people it's okay to
sit up in the front of theclass.
And they said no, because ifyou sit in the back you can see
what people are doing wrong andyou'll have to report it.
It just blew me away.

Speaker 2 (54:53):
Avoid it, that was the way they looked at life.
Yeah, if you don't seesomething bad, nothing,
nothing's happening.
But I think that's the.
That's kind of a facilitiesmindset, Like, ah, don't look
that way, it's, it's just.
But that's the opposite of whatI.
I don't want to get anybody introuble, but people need to not
get themselves in trouble.
Like that's what you've created, a culture that where if you

(55:16):
just don't do it in front ofthem, it's you're good to go.
But yeah, that's a lawsuit, man.
Sound advice though, that's.
That's hilarious.

Speaker 1 (55:22):
Here's one.
Here's one you and I have incommon and I don't really have
anything highlighted, but I felta lot of what you said and that
is leading through a difficultadministration, and I did that a
couple of times.
Yeah, difficult administration,and I did that a couple of

(55:43):
times.
Yeah, that was the mostchallenging part of my career,
where a couple ofadministrations who they didn't
like, the people who worked forthem they didn't like themselves
and they made the worldmiserable.
But what was your experiencewith that and how did you get
through it?

Speaker 2 (55:54):
Well, you know, in a county level it's politics, it's
very political, so I mean it's,it's a different animal than
maybe, you know, a prison, wherethat's a higher position.
This is an elected position, sothere's a lot more to it.
There's, you know, people runagainst each other, you know
there's I don't think manysheriffs quite know what they're

(56:16):
taking on when it comes to jail.
So a lot of egos, a lot of letme prove myself making decisions
without necessarily speakingwith the people that are inside
the building, kind of what'sbest for them, or here's money

(56:38):
cuts, or how can we get patrolthis?
We can we take this away fromthe jail?
You know, I don't know.
You know, it's just alldifferent types of stuff, um,
you know, and then it'ssometimes you just don't like
the administration and they,they know that that their people
are kind of turning on them.
So instead of leading they,it's a show of force, like well,
I'm here, um, and it's kind ofuniversal.

(56:58):
I thought that was like kind ofturn it on them.
So instead of leading they,it's a show of force like well,
I'm here, um, and it's kind ofuniversal.
I thought that was like kind ofa topic that a lot of people.
Could you know that that mightbe dealing like?
I don't want to just starttalking about things that I I
think it's something everybodyfaces or has the potential to
face yeah, so I lost myself fora while.

Speaker 1 (57:20):
I fell into the the we're getting picked on, you
know, and I was trying to avoidgetting in trouble.
But what I discovered and youtalk about it in your chapter
there what I discovered was thatwas when the people under me
and around me needed me the most, and so I actually learned that
I could not ignore what wasgoing on above me, but I found

(57:41):
out that that wasn't asimportant as what was going on
around me and below me.
Those people had a lack ofleadership, and when I, when I
checked out, they had an evenmore problem with lack of
leadership.

Speaker 2 (57:54):
Yeah, and you know, I think during that time I think
what I came to the conclusionwas I needed to be led.
I was so busy leading others.
I had nobody leading me On thepeople that I trusted.
I'm trying to take care of myteam.
I'm trying to do our job to thebest.
I'm trying to not show so muchfrustration to them, because it

(58:18):
spreads and I need them to knowbecause if I freak out, they're
going to freak out and I don'tthink people understand the
amount of weight you take onwhen you take on a cert,
commander role or stuff likethat, where you are dealing with
the top and it becomes budgetsand numbers and not.

(58:40):
So, yes, the mission's there,but there's a lot more to it.
So, yeah, no it's.
Yeah.
I lost myself quick.
I was so protective over mypeople and I got into this
mindset of us versus them,patrol versus corrections I
think that is a lot of placesand I wanted to protect my guys

(59:02):
and it got viewed a littledifferently from the above.
It just had a negative outcome.
And then in my head I was justthinking man, at that time I
needed a leader and nobody waswilling to do that for me and
maybe a leader could have slowedme down or like, hey man, you
need to check yourself here realquick.

(59:22):
Like this is probably not agood idea, but people were
fighting for positions and Ikind of just, you know, I don't
know, it's crazy.

Speaker 1 (59:34):
Yeah, and you're right.
I, as I travel around thecountry teaching jails, I see
such a discrepancy between oneend and the other.
You do have sheriffs who comein and they hire a jail
administrator or an undersheriffand say, hey, jail's yours.
I don't want to hear about it,because it is where their
money's going, it's where theirproblems are, it's all of that

(59:56):
and then I'll go other planet.
I hope they don't mind mespeaking about it, but I was
teaching up in Ingham County,michigan, a couple of weeks ago
and I was so excited the sheriffcame in.
I'm teaching the correctionalCTO class and the sheriff came
in two or three times and hewanted to know what they were
learning.
He was engaged and he kneweverybody's name.
You know it was.
It was exciting to see thattype of sheriff who really cared

(01:00:19):
about his corrections.
He'd spent the money, of course, to bring in you know, good
training just for his officers,made schedule adjustments so
that a bunch of them could bethere, and so that was exciting
to see also.
So, yeah, there's both sides ofit.
You're right.
I don't know what thedifference is, where they came
up, patrol corrections, I don'tknow, but there is both sides.

Speaker 2 (01:00:39):
Yeah, I think it's.
You know, a lot of times thesheriff will hire somebody that
is from patrol to run the jailand they're trying to learn that
.
I've seen that too.
I'm seeing a lot more placesmaybe hiring somebody like a
lieutenant from a jail to start,because they already have an
understanding of all of that.
You know, it makes it easier onthe staff as well, because we

(01:01:02):
can continue to lead, and Ithink that was like the main
focus of that chapter is youstill got to lead, man, like.
You still got to do it.
So we lead.
Anyway, it's just a littledifferent, a little bit more
careful, think tactically, youknow.
So we still got to lead, westill got our people, your
people depend on you.
So I just kind of felt like Iwas taking bullets for him all

(01:01:23):
the time.
But I would, I would do it allthe time.
Like I said, I was there to bethe whipping post, to protect
them, to save them.
I call it the shield.
Yeah, no, literally.
You literally feel that like,like I am getting rained on
right now with all theseproblems, but I'm like, hey,
we're good, I got this.
You guys, I need you to go doyour thing.

Speaker 1 (01:01:43):
But if you're not willing to shield and I said
this the other day if you're notwilling to shield the people
above you and around you, you'reprobably in the wrong position.
And corrections we learned thatearly, you know, because you're
shielding the person next toyou, yeah, people rely on you.
So what's next for Matthew Hyde?
What do you got going?

(01:02:03):
What's coming up?
Well, you know I'm, I knowyou're pushing the book?

Speaker 2 (01:02:08):
Yeah, no, I think the idea was, you know I want to
help, you know, kind of spreadthe simpleness of leadership and
, you know, maybe bring adifferent mindset.
You know I'd like to maybe.
You know I opened up acorrectional leadership
solutions LLC.
You know I got themirrorcheckcom.
It's got, you know, my podcast,my book, all my social medias

(01:02:34):
and you know I'd like to maybeturn it into maybe some speaking
engagements or, you know, likemaybe a couple of day training
or you know, or just some sortof consulting something.
I've consulted a couple ofjails in the past while I was
working as cert commander.
So the need's there I thinkpeople are more with corrections
isn't the same as 10 years ago.
So it's very heavy in the news.
There's a lot of liability, soI think people are becoming more

(01:02:58):
aware of right.
We need as much training aspossible.
You know some trainings arebetter than others, but if you
know if I can spread, you know,the leadership word, then you
know that would be a passion ofmine.
I love talking leadership.

Speaker 1 (01:03:12):
Yeah, so I did listen to the first episode there on
mirrorcheckcom.
Tell me about that.

Speaker 2 (01:03:18):
Yeah.
So that was just kind of likeyou know my buddy's like all
right, so you're going to, youknow, do a podcast thing.
I was like, well, I think it'dbe good.
You know, I'm still learningthe ropes of it, like it's still
kind of you know, I'm learninghow to do things.
But, you know, just trying toagain spread the message I got
it's gone worldwide so I've gotdownloads all over the place.
People are listening.

(01:03:39):
So I've got repeat listeners soa few people are liking it at
least.
But yeah, I'm trying.
Any way I can again helpanybody anywhere.
That's what I want to do.
What's the web address on that?
So TheMirrCheckcom will have alink to the podcast, which it is

(01:04:00):
on Spotify.
You can find it on Spotify.
It's on Buzzsprout, I think,apple podcast.
I kind of tried to spread itaround.
Um.
So yeah, mainly the mirrorcheckcom will get you right
where you all the other places.

Speaker 1 (01:04:15):
Does that have your contact information too, if
somebody wanted to get ahold ofit?

Speaker 2 (01:04:18):
It does.
It's got an email in there.
If you'd like to send an email,even if it's just a question,
we'll answer questions.
We'll come stop by, come hangout and kind of talk about it.
I like leadership strategy.
I don't want to bring onelesson plan.
Let's hear about what's goingon here, what is the issue, and
then what can we do to workthrough it.
But what is the issue?

(01:04:40):
Sure, and then what can we doto work through it?
But then you also have to beopen, understand that this might
be your doing.
So how are we going to unravelthis?
We got to take a step back, butit's just like anything else.
It's a good first step to reachout and you don't want to silo
yourself.
I'm seeing that with a lot ofplaces they silo themselves.
We know everything,no-transcript.

(01:05:06):
I never really thought aboutthat.
Let's break it down, let'sfigure this out.
So, yeah, it's just us helpingeach other out and you, it's
just us helping each other out.

Speaker 1 (01:05:20):
If I can talk leadership with anybody anywhere
I'm in Sounds good.
I'll put all that in the shownotes so that people can find
the link to that and get to yourwebsite and find your book and
ask you questions.

Speaker 2 (01:05:29):
Yeah, I appreciate it .

Speaker 1 (01:05:32):
I sure appreciate you being on the podcast.

Speaker 2 (01:05:34):
Thank you so much for having me Again.
It's really cool.
It's a really cool community.
I'm still new to it, buteverybody's been so nice and
very helpful and I'm doing whatI can to help everyone else.
So it's a very cool communityto be a part of and I'm excited
to watch it grow.

Speaker 1 (01:05:50):
Excellent.
Hey, you have a great day andwe'll see you soon.
Thank you, hey.
Before we go, I'd like to takea minute to thank one of our
sponsors.
Omni Real-Time Locating Systemis a company I've been working
closely with for years.
I'm proud to be a part of thisinnovative team that's developed
the best real-time locatingsystem on the market today for
your jail or prison.
Omni's PREA-compliant real-timemonitoring technology is the

(01:06:15):
very best way to track andrecord your inmates' locations,
their movements, theirinteractions, throughout every
square inch of your correctionalfacility.
Imagine getting an alarm thesecond an escape happens, or an
alert that lets you know when aninmate's heart rate drops below
a set level.
To learn more about Omni, go towwwomnirtlscom.

(01:06:39):
That's omnirtlscom.
That's OmniRTLScom.
Or you can click on today'sshow notes to get in the
information guide.
Omni Real-Time Locating Systemis a powerful tool specifically
designed for the moderncorrectional professional.
If you haven't done so, pleasetake a moment to like my podcast
or, better yet, hit thesubscribe button so that you'll
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(01:07:00):
Thanks for listening and let'sbe safe out there.

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115: From Rookie to Rank - Interview w/Matthew Hyde

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}115: From Rookie to Rank - Interview w/Matthew Hyde