December 22, 2025 • 33 mins
Five years in, the mission feels sharper than ever: equip correctional professionals with tools, mindset, and purpose that hold up under real pressure. We look back on a year of travel and training, thank the partners who help us serve, and pull together the most impactful moments from conversations that changed how we read risk, teach skills, and define what a good day on the tier looks like.
Greg Williams and Brian Marren break down human behavior pattern recognition in a way that clicks on contact: master the baseline, spot the deviation, act before escalation. From the “watching the watcher” concept to recalibrating your mind at every threshold, their insights show why anticipation beats reaction and why prisons are the ultimate classroom for sense-making. We build on that with practical training talk from Myles Cook, who turns skills into a repeatable process: define the real problem, design adult-learning solutions, and leave with a pitch your leaders can approve and measure. It’s training that sticks because it solves something that hurts.
We also get grounded in purpose with Lt. Col. Dave Grossman, who frames corrections as a life of daily sacrifice in service of public safety. That perspective threads through Pete Bloodworth’s story of earning trust at USP Marion, where open bars and lever locks demanded courage and clarity, and Jimmy Cummings walks us through a can’t-make-this-up escape tale that proves the job will surprise you no matter how many shifts you’ve worked. Along the way, we share updates on my upcoming new books—The Weight of Justice and Echoes of the Ozarks
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:34):
Hello and welcome back to the Prison Officer
Podcast.
You know, 2025 has been a busyyear.
Um I've had the opportunity tospeak all over the country from
Boston, Massachusetts, Lansing,Michigan, um, Bismarck, North
Dakota, to Ruidoso, New Mexico.
(00:56):
Um and so I've got to get out,I've got to meet lots of people
from corrections and interactand see what's going on in the
in our world.
And I'm I'm happy to report thatI meet a lot of great people.
I'm very excited about the levelof commitment that I see in the
classes and that I see when Imeet people and the number of
people I see out there that arethat are trying to make this
(01:17):
career better, that are tryingto make this profession more
respected in the public eye.
So that's the really good thing,you know.
I've got to travel around.
I've been to several conferencesthis year.
I've of course taught pepperballclasses, I've taught command
presence classes.
And of course, this has been abig year for me personally as an
(01:38):
author.
So I've got to go and uh doseveral book signings and
launched a couple of books thisyear.
So that has been great.
That's been exciting.
That's been a goal of mine sinceI was young.
So I really am uh happy aboutthat, that things are moving on
with that.
But, you know, honestly, I think2026 is gonna be even better uh
(02:00):
than 2025, and 2025 was great.
On March 28th, next year,that'll be the fifth anniversary
of the Prison Officer Podcast,and I just want to say thank
you.
I couldn't have done it withoutyou.
I never expected it to become asbig as it has, and I'm very
grateful for the people thattune in and listen.
But I also want to stop and takea minute because I I'm grateful
(02:21):
for Pepperball.
You know, not only I get to be amaster instructor for them, but
uh I want to thank them.
Without them and theirsponsorship, this podcast
probably wouldn't be possible atthe level it is.
You know, during my career incorrections, I used or
supervised pepperball hundredsof times.
And now as a master instructor,I get to go out and teach others
(02:42):
about the versatility andeffectiveness of the pepperball
system.
From cell extractions todisturbances on the wreck yard,
pepperball is the first option,the first thing I reach in my
correctional toolbox and bringout.
The ability to transitionquickly from area saturation to
direct impact with non-lethalPava projectiles gives officers
(03:02):
a wide range of options.
And I love going out andteaching them about that and
showing them how that works in acorrectional environment.
And you know, when the use offorce is over, decontamination
is easy.
No oily residue on the walls orfloors.
Another thing I love aboutpepperball.
To learn more about pepperball,go ahead and go visit them at
www pepperball.com.
(03:23):
Pepperball is the safer optionfirst.
What's 2026 going to be likearound here?
Well, I can't talk about it, butI have a special project that
you're going to be very excitedabout when I can.
Uh, I'll be announcing thatsometime in the second half of
2026.
It's something I've been workingon this year, and uh I can't
wait to share it with you guys,but I can't do that right now.
(03:47):
Some of the stuff I can sharewith you.
One thing I've been working hardin the last couple of weeks, and
I will be releasing two booksearly next year.
One of them, of course, is uhcorrections oriented, and it's
uh it's a book I've been workingon for a long time.
You may have heard me, if youwere at the book launch for
power skills, I read a littlebit of it.
But it's called The Weight ofJustice, and it's Leadership
(04:09):
Lessons from the Gray Line, acorrectional officer's journey.
And that book is it covers mostof my career from walking into
this career blind, or what Isaw, you know, the same as what
you guys see working in some ofthese prisons, the good, the
bad, I guess the ugly.
So I cover all that, and then Ibring the leadership lessons
(04:31):
that I did learn over a career.
I I do believe I became a bettercorrectional officer and
absolutely a better leader, andhopefully a better instructor
over that time.
So I share a lot of that inthere, and I'm really looking
forward to getting this outthere.
It's in the editing processright now, so I'm thinking uh a
couple of months, and we'll haveit out there and I'll let you
(04:52):
guys know.
Another book that isn't aboutcorrections, but it's just as
important to me is called Echoesof the Ozarks.
It's a family legacy of timber,words, and art.
I have a great, great, greatuncle who built a cabin in the
Ozarks when they came here fromTennessee.
That cabin is still there.
It's part of the Mark TwainNational Forest.
It's called the Falling SpringsMill.
(05:13):
So if you go there, you can seethe mill that my family built.
You can also see the cabin.
But that's only the first partof that story.
The second part of that story ismy great-grandmother who kept
journals when she lived in theOzarks.
She was an amazing woman who sawthe Ozarks and saw the birds and
the animals and the flora andall everything that was in the
(05:35):
woods and in nature.
And she wrote about that.
She wrote poetry, and I thinkthat's where I got some of my
ability to write from.
And then finally, my grandmotherwas a painter.
She painted in oil, and shepainted a bunch of the mills,
including Falling Springs Mill,the first mill in our family.
But a lot of the mills in OzarkCounty and around Missouri, she
(05:56):
painted those save the historyby doing that.
And so I I talk about that also.
And then finally, I think it was2010, add in the paper, and uh
is part of the Passport and TimePit Project with the National
Forest Service.
And I signed on to do thatbecause they were rebuilding
that cabin that mygreat-great-great uncle built uh
(06:20):
in 1851.
So I got to be part of that fora week and I tell that story in
there.
So it's really a family story,but it talks about how long the
Ozarks and the Mills and therocks and the stones and the
words and the art and how thatbuilt my family and how it has
stayed in my family.
So that's the other one I'mgoing to be releasing this year.
(06:42):
And if things go well, I'm alsoworking on what will be my
fourth children's book.
I just did a book signing lastweek.
I'm really excited about howwell these children's books are
doing.
I don't think that was ever inmy plan, but it has been a blast
doing the book signings, goingout and seeing the kids,
watching kids enjoy what I wroteand read it over and over again.
(07:06):
So that's been really specialfor me.
Now I don't do this very often,but I am going to take just a
minute and I'm going to ask youto do a few things to help me
keep this podcast going.
And before you get scared, noteverything involves money.
If you would like to donate tokeep the podcast going, you can
of course go towww.theprisonofficer.com or go
(07:27):
to the YouTube channel for thePrisonofficer.com and you can
follow the links to Buy Me a Cupof Coffee.
And it gives you some optionsthere where you can take a few
dollars and give it to thepodcast to buy me a cup of
coffee and show your support.
So if you'd like to, that's agreat way to do it.
Second, on YouTube, if you wouldclick subscribe or like, we're
(07:50):
getting close to 500.
I'd really like to get that goalbecause that goal helps us meet,
you know, helps us monetize thechannel and move up on the
ratings.
And so we've got that goal forthe podcast.
So if you could subscribe orlike when you're listening to
our podcast, I would reallyappreciate it.
And if you listen to Spotify,Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, or
(08:12):
any other platform, clickinglike or subscribe does make a
big difference.
It makes a difference in wherewe're seen in the lists.
And then finally, if you'vepurchased one of my books,
please take a moment and leave arating or review on Amazon.
I'm not telling you it has to bea five-star rating.
Tell me the truth.
I'm my feelings are okay.
(08:33):
I was a correctional officer formany years, so you're not going
to hurt my feelings, but leaveme a leave me an honest review.
Those reviews mean a lot to apublished author, especially a
self-published author.
You know, we have to do a lot ofthat work ourselves.
And those ratings directlyaffect how much Amazon promotes
our books when you see it inads, when other people see it in
(08:54):
ads.
So if you can go and leave us arating if you've bought one of
my books, any of them, thechildren's books, power skills,
keys to your career, any ofthose books, if you would leave
us a rating, that would bewonderful.
So thanks for being patient withthat.
I really do appreciate it.
I appreciate everything you guysdo for the podcast.
I appreciate the emails.
I appreciate the notes onLinkedIn and Facebook, and I
(09:16):
appreciate the interaction thatI get to have with you guys.
So now, as I looked back overthe year, I realized that we had
an incredible lineup of gueststhis year.
When I started this podcast, Inever imagined that I would get
to speak with some of the peoplethat I spoke with this year, or
that I would get to that I wouldget to learn at a level.
(09:38):
I know you guys learn from this.
I know you love hearing from theleaders, but I I started off
doing this so that I couldlearn.
So I could learn from people whohad done it.
Leaders, directors, wardens,great instructors.
Those are the people I wanted toengage and learn how to make
what I did better.
And so I've put together some ofour best conversations from this
(09:59):
year.
No, I didn't get to everyone.
But the links, I'm gonna goahead and put links in the show
notes.
In case you missed one of theepisodes this year, you can go
to the show notes and you canclick a link there in case you
missed one of them.
But I did highlight a few here.
So let's start with uh GregWilliams and Brian Miren from
Arcadia Congregati.
That always takes me just aminute.
(10:20):
Um, you know, they are thepremier instructors uh worldwide
when it comes to human behaviorpattern recognition and
analysis.
I love listening to them talk.
So much of what they teach hasto do with corrections and what
we do, and they help us theyhelp us put a name to a lot of
the instinct, the what we callit instinct, but it's not.
(10:42):
It is human behavior patternrecognition.
And so I had them on thepodcast, they were on podcast
number 100.
Uh, these guys have literallywrote the book on this subject,
and so let's listen to what theyhave to say.
SPEAKER_00 (10:54):
I'll I'll say his name because everybody knows
him.
Old Smitty.
I got old Smitty that said,Don't touch the radio, don't
touch the car keys, and don'twake me up.
And that was it.
You know what I'm saying?
It's like, okay, so we satbehind the fire station and I
watched the stars go by becauseI was like, man, there's all
those wonderful radio runs.
Can I be out there?
Nope, because I was with thewrong guy.
But what your guy told you is ascientific principle, and I want
(11:17):
you to think about that.
Don't watch the watcher.
So let's just talk about thatone thing that he said, Michael.
Okay, so your brain is set upwith your eyes looking to a
visual field of yourenvironment.
Okay, your eyes have asix-degree or an 11-degree
functional field of view, boy orgirl.
And when you scan yourenvironment, you're looking for
light motion, n edges, things toattend to, right back to
(11:38):
attention.
So that person that's watchingis a lookout.
So what you do is you draw a T,okay, making the T go across his
shoulders and down from his headand orient what he's likely
looking at.
Now you draw your six or 11degrees out from that, looking
from overhead, and you go, okay,he's watching out for the
guards, he's watching out forthe other gang, he's watching
(12:01):
out for the person deliveringwhatever, okay?
So who's watching the watcher?
Who's paying attention to thatperson and what's going on where
he's not oriented to?
Because that's where the peopleare hiding in plain sight.
That's where they're buildingthe shift, that's where they're
hiding the bootleg liquor or thedrugs.
And so what we do is exactly thesame thing that you do.
(12:22):
We just do it in a differentbaseline, in a different
environment.
So our baseline can changeanywhere.
It can be in a room, like aninterview room, it can be in a
factory, it can be in a vehiclebay, it can be out in the rest
of the world or on an airplane.
Well, that's no different fromyou.
You've got uh people that are incharge of transferring prisoners
to court, a back and forth, twodifferent prisons, in and out of
a jail cell to, for example, theinfirmary.
(12:44):
And what happens is each timeyou go from one threshold to the
next, you have to recalibrateyour brain and go, okay, now I'm
on the floor.
Now I'm in general population.
Now I'm coming into an officesetting.
Because if you don't, what'shappening is you're not
preparing your brain forlikelihood, those things that
likely could occur.
(13:05):
And that's just being alert andaware.
But your whole body is fightingthat.
Your whole body is saying, golay down, have more food, go to
sleep.
Now you hear that alarm, don'tworry, it'll go away soon.
So, so to be that good person,to be at the top of your game,
you have to fight what'shundreds of thousands, if not
(13:26):
millions of years, of thesedentary mindset that you're in
and embrace what all humans havebeen given, and that's the
ability to alert to certain cuesin your environment.
So, Brian gave you one.
We're wired to look at otherpeople and feel their emotion uh
through our mirror neurons,okay?
Which means that if you'rehappy, I'll be happy.
If I want you to be happy, Ishould be happy and you'll be
(13:47):
happy too.
Okay, that's great.
But you know, the other side ofthat same coin is danger.
We've been given the innateability to sense danger in our
environment and we talk it away.
We say, Oh, the hair in the backof my head stood up.
Oh, I got this hanky feeling.
Brian mentioned it, the spidersenses.
Look, I'll bet you you talk toall the people that you work
with routinely on in prisonofficers and staff and
(14:10):
administration, and everyonewill be able to tell you a story
about how they knew the crap wasabout to go sideways because of
a sound or a sight or a smell.
So you said earlier about whenit gets real quiet back to the
wall.
I'll tell you, you want topredict an ambush in combat,
radio is gonna either goabsolutely dead or it's gonna
spike.
(14:30):
It's gonna be all this rapidtransmission, you're not gonna
understand it.
And that's gonna be theatmospheric shift just before
the ambush, or it's gonna godead quiet, and everybody's
gonna go, hey, did you hearthat?
Yeah, exactly.
And now you're gonna get theambush.
So it's the same human behaviorrules, let's call them, and it's
the same interaction withhumans, it's just on a different
(14:51):
baseline level.
So you, I would agree withBrian, you've got it much harder
because you've got less flash tobang.
You've got it much harder.
We give the gift of time anddistance, which means the more
time you have to observe, thefarther you are away from the
incident, the better you haveit.
So you're actually right upclose and personal almost all
(15:11):
day long.
So I also know that you havesurveillance units.
So that's how you can offsetthat, right?
By watching and listening.
Because I'll tell you one thingI'll I'll tell you before I'll
end my rant here, Michael, isthat coppers on the street have
the red and blues.
They also have a siren, and thatgets them into more trouble
because you know what they do?
They race into a situationwithout giving it enough time
(15:34):
for the brain to consider whatmight be happening.
Your folks, even when you go toyou know, hands-on or less than
lethal, at least you can sitback for a minute, take a look,
and assess what's going on, andsay, I can compare that to this
person's previous behavior or tothat wing at that time during
the day or night or somethingwith with with uh uh uh police
(15:56):
work on the road, that tends tobe a little more random.
Do you understand where I'mgoing there?
SPEAKER_01 (16:01):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Um and we also have the ability,you know, most of these big
prisons have a thousand cameras.
SPEAKER_00 (16:09):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (16:10):
So I've got guys who are intelligence specialists who
are watching the camera and cangive you information while it's
going on with a whole differentviewpoint.
Right.
So let me uh ask this, and andand Brian, uh on your website,
and he it kind of leads intowhat Greg was talking about, you
talk about humans have devolved.
(16:31):
And I think prison, we get tosee some of that.
Can you talk to us about howhumans have devolved?
SPEAKER_03 (16:38):
So, what we kind of mean when we say that is um, you
know, our our ability to sensemake and problem solve, our
ability to understand and readand interpret the environment
has devolved.
And and that's that's over thecourse of human history.
It's a it's a slow process, it'sbeen accelerated by newer
technology, uh staring at aphone or screens and stuff like
that.
Meaning there's less sort ofhuman interaction out in the
(17:00):
world today, you know, even withlike kids, you know, and so we
don't learn as many of thelessons that we do anymore.
And so we're kind of so used tonow is there an app for that or
is there a technology for thatthat we're missing a lot of cues
right in front of us?
Now, take that to a prison, alittle bit different, uh um, in
a sense that now you're allreliant on on just that, on just
(17:23):
how someone looks, how theywalk, where they walk, who they
go and associate with.
That's that's how it kind of allused to be done, right?
In a sense, like in how tribesand humans and cliques and
groups would interact with oneanother, right?
We we we look for familiarityand so we we find comfort in
familiarity.
And so we're always going tolook for something that it's
(17:44):
just part of the reason whyhumans, all humans set patterns.
So every person, whether you'rean inmate or you're a
corrections officer, like you'regonna set a pattern.
You can't not do it.
It's what your brain wants todo, it wants to burn less
calories.
So it's gonna consistently dothe same thing over and over
again once it finds a way to dosomething by burning the least
(18:04):
amount of calories.
So what we look for is like,okay, you're gonna set that's a
that's just baseline behavior,and then you kind of if there's
deviations from that, there hasto be a reason.
There's there's some catalystthat caused you to do something
different today.
No one just randomly goes abouttheir day in their business,
like you know, unless there'slike you know, mental health or
(18:24):
or drugs or somethinginvolvement, meaning, meaning it
we all set those patterns.
So what you know, specificallywhat we talk about with a with a
prison is like it's like it'sthat petri dish.
It's that it's that scienceexperiment because there's only
so many things you can do.
There's only so many things youcan do during the day, or so
many places you can go, or orand there's different, you know,
informal rules in prisons, youknow, all over the place of what
(18:47):
who can hang out with who andand and what who belongs to what
group.
And you know, they don't mightnot have a lot of say about that
when they come in, but it'sgonna it's gonna formalize very,
very quickly.
And so that creates its ownecosystem.
And so what a lot of people tryto do is say, here's some things
(19:08):
to look for, you gotta watch outfor this, or you gotta watch out
for that, or here's some somesome pre-event indicators, or
here's some threat indicator, orhere's something, and that
that's all good.
But actually, you go back toeven what your your story from
when you first got there andsomeone showed you, it's like
get really, really good atwhat's normal, what's typical,
what should I expect to see?
(19:30):
The better you get at that, thebetter you get at reading and
understanding a baseline andknowing what normal is, the
easier it is to spot what thosedeviations are.
You may not know what it is,right, or what's going on, but
you'll be able to recognize it.
So, like when I'll go withdifferent groups, whether it's
like a task force or policeofficers doing whatever, or a
(19:50):
military unit, you know, andthey're going, okay, well, we
got this, we kind of look forthese things.
And I'm always like, Well, stop,hang on.
Don't don't tell me what youguys look for.
What should I expect to see?
Right?
We're out on the surveillancething, it's two o'clock in the
morning.
These are the people, like, whatshould they be doing right now?
What's normal for them?
And they go, Well, normallythey're doing this, normally
(20:11):
doing this.
Okay, great.
Because now I can spot, well,that's not normal, because you
said that, and they're going,shit, that's right.
There you must be up tosomething over there.
I didn't even see that.
It's like because you get soused to looking for all of these
different things, like you, youkind of there's some cognitive
biases that that will take over,and now you start to see things
that may not uh that might notactually be there in a sense.
(20:32):
But what you have there withthat ability, especially in the
Daily routine is like, and Gregwas kind of talking about this
earlier, is your brain wants toknow the answer before you get
to the it wants to know the restof the sentence or the paragraph
before you get to the end of it,right?
So it'll fill in words.
It doesn't want to be surprised.
So it'll, it'll, you know, writethings off or you know, not
(20:54):
attend to certain things becauseit's like, nope, I know this.
I've been in here a hundredtimes, you know, I I've got
this.
So what we try to really getpeople to focus on is sort of
that anticipation, right?
So you go, all right, whatbefore I walk out here, what
should I expect to see?
What's normal at this time onthis day, you know, whatever's
(21:15):
going on?
It's because two in theafternoon is different than two
in the morning, Monday'sdifferent than Saturday,
whatever.
Like you have to just know whatis typical, what should I expect
to see?
And then once I place myself inthe environment, the things that
aren't typical, they're gonnajust pop out to me right away.
And now I can start todetermine, okay, well, why is
that?
And I can start to uh sense makea little bit and try to put
(21:36):
things together and go, oh shit,this is now escalating.
That person never sits with thatgroup.
Uh, hang on, they should be overthere.
And you know what?
Wow, now that guy, he neverstands over there.
He's always over there with thatgroup.
Okay, I'll stop right now.
Now we have something before itescalates into whatever's coming
next.
SPEAKER_01 (21:53):
Wasn't that great?
Yeah, absolutely.
I was also thrilled to haveMiles Cook on the podcast.
Now, Miles and I work togetherat Command Presence Training.
He's I love listening to himinstruct.
I'm a huge fan of his classesand the way he reframes problems
to turn them into challenges.
I've learned a ton from Miles.
So I had him on here.
(22:14):
Miles is the trainingcoordinator at uh Walters State
Regional Law EnforcementTraining Academy.
He's a member of the TennesseeCorrections Institute Board,
TCI, which does amazing stufffor Tennessee.
And he's also a competitiveshooter.
So this guy lives and breathestraining.
Uh, in this conversation, wewe're gonna talk about what he
learned in corrections that helpshape the rest of his career.
(22:36):
Thank you, Miles.
SPEAKER_05 (22:38):
When I got there, yeah, I was fit.
I had a formal education, I wasready to roll, or I thought I
was ready to roll, and uh, I getuh into into working into
corrections.
And all right, first thing Iremember, I remember vividly, I
remember the guy's name andeverything.
It's uh all right, you know,we're gonna we're gonna search
search this guy out before hegoes upstairs, you know, the
(22:59):
whole squat and cough.
And uh that that whole kind ofthat whole kind of thing he was
about six foot six, gangly, youknow, and uh, you know, had been
stabbed in the throat, had somemetal in there.
And I got very nervous and Ifigured out very quickly the
skills that I was missing intalking duty.
And it was a real awakeningmoment for me uh in corrections
(23:21):
and then into my into my patroland law enforcement career, I I
was not as ready as I thought Iwas.
And I have always held thebelief, especially in Tennessee
with the sheriff's officeslocally, where corrections and
patrol visions are shared.
That if you want to learn to getgood at those power skills, like
(23:42):
the book behind you, there is nobetter world than corrections.
Absolutely, and so I know forus, you know, in and in some
ways in our in in my instructordevelopment, that's what you're
gonna develop the problem, thenwe're gonna work on a problem
statement, right?
I don't care.
I don't care if the problem is Iwant my line of shooters to be
(24:03):
faster firing your handgun, orI've got a cultural problem, or
how do I get the older people inmy agency to get excited
trained?
If I'm burnt out and I'm readyto quit, how do I feel?
I I don't care what the problemis, right?
It's not mine, it's yours.
So I'm I just want to kind ofhelp you look at it differently
or see if we can find an answer.
(24:24):
And we and we were able to dothat.
And I do think taking obviouslywhat they need into account is
important.
I know for our for thatinstructor development, and I'm
sure you set through a ton ofthem.
I know I have a lot of times,you know, the end is a
five-minute presentation onwhatever you pick, and it's you
know, how to apply a target oryou know, maybe something with
(24:45):
hyperbolt, right?
And so you you kind of deliverthat for us in our in our
instructor development class,when you sit through the
leadership and you sit throughthe problem solving and you sit
through the verbal and nonverbalcommunication, we have some
really killer exercises for thatthat are just amazing.
And you sit through all thesethings.
What you're working toward isactually solving the problem,
(25:07):
then you go through a day tryingto solve the problem, and then
your exercise at the end is a 15to 20 minute presentation based
on how, based on adult learning,based on all the things we went
through, how you plan to fixthat problem.
And so what you leave with is apackaged 15-minute pitch to your
(25:29):
administration on how toactually fix the problem.
So it it it's worked really wellfor us, but you know, I I don't
think it's just training.
I think there's some goodexamples and world.
We want to reduce foot pursuit.
That sounds great.
I would ask you, is that theactual terminal objective?
(25:52):
Well, the the actual realobjective is probably to reduce
the liability associated withfoot pursuits.
Well, that's gonna that's gonnaend up in a different answer.
SPEAKER_01 (26:02):
Another highlight for me this year was Lieutenant
Colonel Dave Grossman.
Now, Lieutenant Colonel Grossmanis an author.
He's a trainer who conductsseminars on the psychology of
lethal force.
Okay.
He's also a retired lieutenantcolonel in the United States
Army.
I've read several of his books.
I love them all.
I learned a ton, and I don'tknow that I have expected to
(26:24):
have him on my podcast.
So I was absolutely thrilled tohave him on the podcast.
In this episode, he speaks tothe role of corrections as a
public servant and why what wedo truly matters.
SPEAKER_02 (26:36):
You know, have you ever heard if you truly love
something, let it go.
If it comes back, it's reallyyours.
Yep.
That's how much God loves us.
He loves us enough to let usmake our own decisions.
That means a lot of people makereally bad decisions and a lot
of really bad things happen.
When I say, God, why don't youdo something?
He said, I did.
I send you.
You are his agent.
You are truly God's agent to dogood in this world, to give
(27:00):
people a second chance, to takecare of people off the streets.
You're truly a public servant.
SPEAKER_01 (27:05):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (27:06):
And and I and I talk in my presentations about the
opposite of evil.
What's the opposite of evil?
The opposite of evil is love.
Evil is absence of love, just asdarkness, absence of light.
And Jesus said, Jesus said,greater love is no one than
this.
That they lay down their lifefor their friends.
(27:26):
But listen, here's the key.
There are many ways to lay downyour life.
There are many ways to lay downyour life.
And sometimes the greatest loveis not to sacrifice your life,
right?
But to live a life of sacrifice.
And that's what corrections is.
Nobody's in this job to getstinking filthy American dream
rich, you know.
SPEAKER_01 (27:45):
No.
SPEAKER_02 (27:46):
Nobody's in this job to be a famous celebrity, at
least not legally, you know.
SPEAKER_01 (27:50):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (27:51):
When he chose this profession, he really chose to a
certain degree, he chose a lifeof sacrifice.
SPEAKER_01 (27:56):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (27:56):
And we must believe you're sacrificed for a noble
and worthy purpose.
And so we began by talking aboutfacing violence and how most
people are not wired to do that.
Right.
But when you face that, you say,I faced that violence today, so
my children didn't have to.
SPEAKER_01 (28:15):
Another one of my guests this year was retired
Bureau of Prisons AssociateWarden Pete Bloodworth.
In this discussion, Pete tellsus about what it was like
walking into one of the toughestprisons in America, Marion,
Illinois.
So he's got a great story here.
And by the way, Pete and anotherguest from this year, Chris
McConnell, have started theirown podcast called Corrections
Unfiltered.
(28:36):
So be sure and go to YouTube andcheck them guys out.
But here's Pete.
SPEAKER_06 (28:40):
Yeah, and it was a jump because I'm coming from, I
could just told you, where theyhug it out, shake it, shake
hands, and swear they'll nevertalk mean to each other again.
You know, Marion, uh, Marion isan institution where they've had
they had three tragic murders ofstaff members, and two staff
members were murdered in thesame day.
And the staff members who werethere, if they weren't there in
(29:01):
1983 when that happened, theyknew they were carrying the
baton for those staff members.
And so when you got there, theydidn't disrespect you, but you
had to earn the respect and showthat you were there for the
right reasons.
Right.
And only until you prove thatwould they embrace you with
caution.
Because you came in as a leaderand they knew that you could
come in and disrupt a lot ofthings.
(29:22):
And there was it wasn't itwasn't anything other than the
fact that you had to believethat you were there to safeguard
not only them, but the BOPbecause that's where the top
tier of bad guys were at.
Unlike the ADX, you know, itstill had the open bar concept,
it still had the old locks whereyou had to select the doors and
pull the levers.
It wasn't push button and stufflike that.
(29:44):
You didn't have sally ports atevery cell to protect you from
when they came out of the cellto a cuff port.
It was you're right there withthem.
So if they didn't like you,things came flying your way.
Uh and that was brought to meone of my first nights there.
They called me down insegregation and said they had a
guy who was a little upset.
Can you come talk to him?
I get there and I'm like, What'sgoing on?
They said, Well, he's down thatway.
And I like cell 17 of 18.
(30:06):
So I walked past all these openbars to get down to the cell.
And there was a guy, and he was,I had seen Rage before, but not
like this.
And when he threw his radio atme and it was a good size, it
was a wood box radio, and thatthing disintegrated and just
came flying by me, and he let meknow that he was going to kill
me.
There was no doubt whatsoever inmy mind he could make that
(30:26):
happen right there.
SPEAKER_01 (30:28):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_06 (30:29):
And I realized, you know, I'm in a whole different
place now.
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (30:34):
And finally, one of my favorite guests this year was
Jimmy Cummings.
Now, Jimmy spent a lifetimeworking in corrections with the
United States Marine Corps, andhe has the stories to prove it.
What you're about to hear is oneof those stories, and it also
became a viral hit for thepodcast.
So I hope you enjoy it.
SPEAKER_04 (30:51):
Bad luck.
And then he had another inmatebecause we had the two prisons.
So this one inmate gets outthrough the mess deck and he
jumps in a dipsy dumpster.
You know, you know what DipsyDumpster is?
The dipsy dumpster is those bigmetal things that they throw
garbage in and everything.
Big enormous garbage can, youknow, with thick metal and
(31:12):
stuff.
And they have to use like a theyhave to use a special dump truck
that comes down.
It's got like a forklift and itlifts the dipsy dumpster up and
dumps it into the into thegarbage truck.
So this inmate, he literallygets in the dipsy dumpster
because he knows the garbagegonna the guy's gonna come.
He's in the dipsy dumpster, sothe the garbage truck comes in,
(31:32):
it puts the the forks in, liftsit up, dumps it in there, and
now the guy that's driving thegarbage truck, he pushes the
button to compress it.
Now this guy's in the backthere, right?
And he's compressing, he's luckyhe didn't compress it all the
way, but he's crushed in therewith all the garbage.
So he leaves the gate, thecompound, but what does he do?
(31:53):
The garbage truck goes to theother brig.
Goes to the other brig, pullsinto the compound.
By the time this inmate workshis way through the garbage to
get out, he jumps out and hestarts running to find out that
he's in the compound of theother prison.
It's a lifetime of storiesthere.
(32:13):
Oh, there's you, yeah, you youtwo.
SPEAKER_01 (32:15):
You guys got such some some stories.
Well, that's it for this year,folks.
I hope you enjoyed it.
I wish each and every one of youa Merry Christmas and a happy,
healthy, and prosperous newyear.
I know several of you are goingto work those holidays, and I
appreciate the fact that you'rethere.
Be safe.
Watch out for each other.
And most of all, just the reasonwe have this podcast, I want you
(32:40):
to remember that what you do andhow you do it matters every day.
Hello and welcome back to the Prison Officer
Podcast.
You know, 2025 has been a busyyear.
Um I've had the opportunity tospeak all over the country from
Boston, Massachusetts, Lansing,Michigan, um, Bismarck, North
Dakota, to Ruidoso, New Mexico.
(00:56):
Um and so I've got to get out,I've got to meet lots of people
from corrections and interactand see what's going on in the
in our world.
And I'm I'm happy to report thatI meet a lot of great people.
I'm very excited about the levelof commitment that I see in the
classes and that I see when Imeet people and the number of
people I see out there that arethat are trying to make this
(01:17):
career better, that are tryingto make this profession more
respected in the public eye.
So that's the really good thing,you know.
I've got to travel around.
I've been to several conferencesthis year.
I've of course taught pepperballclasses, I've taught command
presence classes.
And of course, this has been abig year for me personally as an
(01:38):
author.
So I've got to go and uh doseveral book signings and
launched a couple of books thisyear.
So that has been great.
That's been exciting.
That's been a goal of mine sinceI was young.
So I really am uh happy aboutthat, that things are moving on
with that.
But, you know, honestly, I think2026 is gonna be even better uh
(02:00):
than 2025, and 2025 was great.
On March 28th, next year,that'll be the fifth anniversary
of the Prison Officer Podcast,and I just want to say thank
you.
I couldn't have done it withoutyou.
I never expected it to become asbig as it has, and I'm very
grateful for the people thattune in and listen.
But I also want to stop and takea minute because I I'm grateful
(02:21):
for Pepperball.
You know, not only I get to be amaster instructor for them, but
uh I want to thank them.
Without them and theirsponsorship, this podcast
probably wouldn't be possible atthe level it is.
You know, during my career incorrections, I used or
supervised pepperball hundredsof times.
And now as a master instructor,I get to go out and teach others
(02:42):
about the versatility andeffectiveness of the pepperball
system.
From cell extractions todisturbances on the wreck yard,
pepperball is the first option,the first thing I reach in my
correctional toolbox and bringout.
The ability to transitionquickly from area saturation to
direct impact with non-lethalPava projectiles gives officers
(03:02):
a wide range of options.
And I love going out andteaching them about that and
showing them how that works in acorrectional environment.
And you know, when the use offorce is over, decontamination
is easy.
No oily residue on the walls orfloors.
Another thing I love aboutpepperball.
To learn more about pepperball,go ahead and go visit them at
www pepperball.com.
(03:23):
Pepperball is the safer optionfirst.
What's 2026 going to be likearound here?
Well, I can't talk about it, butI have a special project that
you're going to be very excitedabout when I can.
Uh, I'll be announcing thatsometime in the second half of
2026.
It's something I've been workingon this year, and uh I can't
wait to share it with you guys,but I can't do that right now.
(03:47):
Some of the stuff I can sharewith you.
One thing I've been working hardin the last couple of weeks, and
I will be releasing two booksearly next year.
One of them, of course, is uhcorrections oriented, and it's
uh it's a book I've been workingon for a long time.
You may have heard me, if youwere at the book launch for
power skills, I read a littlebit of it.
But it's called The Weight ofJustice, and it's Leadership
(04:09):
Lessons from the Gray Line, acorrectional officer's journey.
And that book is it covers mostof my career from walking into
this career blind, or what Isaw, you know, the same as what
you guys see working in some ofthese prisons, the good, the
bad, I guess the ugly.
So I cover all that, and then Ibring the leadership lessons
(04:31):
that I did learn over a career.
I I do believe I became a bettercorrectional officer and
absolutely a better leader, andhopefully a better instructor
over that time.
So I share a lot of that inthere, and I'm really looking
forward to getting this outthere.
It's in the editing processright now, so I'm thinking uh a
couple of months, and we'll haveit out there and I'll let you
(04:52):
guys know.
Another book that isn't aboutcorrections, but it's just as
important to me is called Echoesof the Ozarks.
It's a family legacy of timber,words, and art.
I have a great, great, greatuncle who built a cabin in the
Ozarks when they came here fromTennessee.
That cabin is still there.
It's part of the Mark TwainNational Forest.
It's called the Falling SpringsMill.
(05:13):
So if you go there, you can seethe mill that my family built.
You can also see the cabin.
But that's only the first partof that story.
The second part of that story ismy great-grandmother who kept
journals when she lived in theOzarks.
She was an amazing woman who sawthe Ozarks and saw the birds and
the animals and the flora andall everything that was in the
(05:35):
woods and in nature.
And she wrote about that.
She wrote poetry, and I thinkthat's where I got some of my
ability to write from.
And then finally, my grandmotherwas a painter.
She painted in oil, and shepainted a bunch of the mills,
including Falling Springs Mill,the first mill in our family.
But a lot of the mills in OzarkCounty and around Missouri, she
(05:56):
painted those save the historyby doing that.
And so I I talk about that also.
And then finally, I think it was2010, add in the paper, and uh
is part of the Passport and TimePit Project with the National
Forest Service.
And I signed on to do thatbecause they were rebuilding
that cabin that mygreat-great-great uncle built uh
(06:20):
in 1851.
So I got to be part of that fora week and I tell that story in
there.
So it's really a family story,but it talks about how long the
Ozarks and the Mills and therocks and the stones and the
words and the art and how thatbuilt my family and how it has
stayed in my family.
So that's the other one I'mgoing to be releasing this year.
(06:42):
And if things go well, I'm alsoworking on what will be my
fourth children's book.
I just did a book signing lastweek.
I'm really excited about howwell these children's books are
doing.
I don't think that was ever inmy plan, but it has been a blast
doing the book signings, goingout and seeing the kids,
watching kids enjoy what I wroteand read it over and over again.
(07:06):
So that's been really specialfor me.
Now I don't do this very often,but I am going to take just a
minute and I'm going to ask youto do a few things to help me
keep this podcast going.
And before you get scared, noteverything involves money.
If you would like to donate tokeep the podcast going, you can
of course go towww.theprisonofficer.com or go
(07:27):
to the YouTube channel for thePrisonofficer.com and you can
follow the links to Buy Me a Cupof Coffee.
And it gives you some optionsthere where you can take a few
dollars and give it to thepodcast to buy me a cup of
coffee and show your support.
So if you'd like to, that's agreat way to do it.
Second, on YouTube, if you wouldclick subscribe or like, we're
(07:50):
getting close to 500.
I'd really like to get that goalbecause that goal helps us meet,
you know, helps us monetize thechannel and move up on the
ratings.
And so we've got that goal forthe podcast.
So if you could subscribe orlike when you're listening to
our podcast, I would reallyappreciate it.
And if you listen to Spotify,Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, or
(08:12):
any other platform, clickinglike or subscribe does make a
big difference.
It makes a difference in wherewe're seen in the lists.
And then finally, if you'vepurchased one of my books,
please take a moment and leave arating or review on Amazon.
I'm not telling you it has to bea five-star rating.
Tell me the truth.
I'm my feelings are okay.
(08:33):
I was a correctional officer formany years, so you're not going
to hurt my feelings, but leaveme a leave me an honest review.
Those reviews mean a lot to apublished author, especially a
self-published author.
You know, we have to do a lot ofthat work ourselves.
And those ratings directlyaffect how much Amazon promotes
our books when you see it inads, when other people see it in
(08:54):
ads.
So if you can go and leave us arating if you've bought one of
my books, any of them, thechildren's books, power skills,
keys to your career, any ofthose books, if you would leave
us a rating, that would bewonderful.
So thanks for being patient withthat.
I really do appreciate it.
I appreciate everything you guysdo for the podcast.
I appreciate the emails.
I appreciate the notes onLinkedIn and Facebook, and I
(09:16):
appreciate the interaction thatI get to have with you guys.
So now, as I looked back overthe year, I realized that we had
an incredible lineup of gueststhis year.
When I started this podcast, Inever imagined that I would get
to speak with some of the peoplethat I spoke with this year, or
that I would get to that I wouldget to learn at a level.
(09:38):
I know you guys learn from this.
I know you love hearing from theleaders, but I I started off
doing this so that I couldlearn.
So I could learn from people whohad done it.
Leaders, directors, wardens,great instructors.
Those are the people I wanted toengage and learn how to make
what I did better.
And so I've put together some ofour best conversations from this
(09:59):
year.
No, I didn't get to everyone.
But the links, I'm gonna goahead and put links in the show
notes.
In case you missed one of theepisodes this year, you can go
to the show notes and you canclick a link there in case you
missed one of them.
But I did highlight a few here.
So let's start with uh GregWilliams and Brian Miren from
Arcadia Congregati.
That always takes me just aminute.
(10:20):
Um, you know, they are thepremier instructors uh worldwide
when it comes to human behaviorpattern recognition and
analysis.
I love listening to them talk.
So much of what they teach hasto do with corrections and what
we do, and they help us theyhelp us put a name to a lot of
the instinct, the what we callit instinct, but it's not.
(10:42):
It is human behavior patternrecognition.
And so I had them on thepodcast, they were on podcast
number 100.
Uh, these guys have literallywrote the book on this subject,
and so let's listen to what theyhave to say.
SPEAKER_00 (10:54):
I'll I'll say his name because everybody knows
him.
Old Smitty.
I got old Smitty that said,Don't touch the radio, don't
touch the car keys, and don'twake me up.
And that was it.
You know what I'm saying?
It's like, okay, so we satbehind the fire station and I
watched the stars go by becauseI was like, man, there's all
those wonderful radio runs.
Can I be out there?
Nope, because I was with thewrong guy.
But what your guy told you is ascientific principle, and I want
(11:17):
you to think about that.
Don't watch the watcher.
So let's just talk about thatone thing that he said, Michael.
Okay, so your brain is set upwith your eyes looking to a
visual field of yourenvironment.
Okay, your eyes have asix-degree or an 11-degree
functional field of view, boy orgirl.
And when you scan yourenvironment, you're looking for
light motion, n edges, things toattend to, right back to
(11:38):
attention.
So that person that's watchingis a lookout.
So what you do is you draw a T,okay, making the T go across his
shoulders and down from his headand orient what he's likely
looking at.
Now you draw your six or 11degrees out from that, looking
from overhead, and you go, okay,he's watching out for the
guards, he's watching out forthe other gang, he's watching
(12:01):
out for the person deliveringwhatever, okay?
So who's watching the watcher?
Who's paying attention to thatperson and what's going on where
he's not oriented to?
Because that's where the peopleare hiding in plain sight.
That's where they're buildingthe shift, that's where they're
hiding the bootleg liquor or thedrugs.
And so what we do is exactly thesame thing that you do.
(12:22):
We just do it in a differentbaseline, in a different
environment.
So our baseline can changeanywhere.
It can be in a room, like aninterview room, it can be in a
factory, it can be in a vehiclebay, it can be out in the rest
of the world or on an airplane.
Well, that's no different fromyou.
You've got uh people that are incharge of transferring prisoners
to court, a back and forth, twodifferent prisons, in and out of
a jail cell to, for example, theinfirmary.
(12:44):
And what happens is each timeyou go from one threshold to the
next, you have to recalibrateyour brain and go, okay, now I'm
on the floor.
Now I'm in general population.
Now I'm coming into an officesetting.
Because if you don't, what'shappening is you're not
preparing your brain forlikelihood, those things that
likely could occur.
(13:05):
And that's just being alert andaware.
But your whole body is fightingthat.
Your whole body is saying, golay down, have more food, go to
sleep.
Now you hear that alarm, don'tworry, it'll go away soon.
So, so to be that good person,to be at the top of your game,
you have to fight what'shundreds of thousands, if not
(13:26):
millions of years, of thesedentary mindset that you're in
and embrace what all humans havebeen given, and that's the
ability to alert to certain cuesin your environment.
So, Brian gave you one.
We're wired to look at otherpeople and feel their emotion uh
through our mirror neurons,okay?
Which means that if you'rehappy, I'll be happy.
If I want you to be happy, Ishould be happy and you'll be
(13:47):
happy too.
Okay, that's great.
But you know, the other side ofthat same coin is danger.
We've been given the innateability to sense danger in our
environment and we talk it away.
We say, Oh, the hair in the backof my head stood up.
Oh, I got this hanky feeling.
Brian mentioned it, the spidersenses.
Look, I'll bet you you talk toall the people that you work
with routinely on in prisonofficers and staff and
(14:10):
administration, and everyonewill be able to tell you a story
about how they knew the crap wasabout to go sideways because of
a sound or a sight or a smell.
So you said earlier about whenit gets real quiet back to the
wall.
I'll tell you, you want topredict an ambush in combat,
radio is gonna either goabsolutely dead or it's gonna
spike.
(14:30):
It's gonna be all this rapidtransmission, you're not gonna
understand it.
And that's gonna be theatmospheric shift just before
the ambush, or it's gonna godead quiet, and everybody's
gonna go, hey, did you hearthat?
Yeah, exactly.
And now you're gonna get theambush.
So it's the same human behaviorrules, let's call them, and it's
the same interaction withhumans, it's just on a different
(14:51):
baseline level.
So you, I would agree withBrian, you've got it much harder
because you've got less flash tobang.
You've got it much harder.
We give the gift of time anddistance, which means the more
time you have to observe, thefarther you are away from the
incident, the better you haveit.
So you're actually right upclose and personal almost all
(15:11):
day long.
So I also know that you havesurveillance units.
So that's how you can offsetthat, right?
By watching and listening.
Because I'll tell you one thingI'll I'll tell you before I'll
end my rant here, Michael, isthat coppers on the street have
the red and blues.
They also have a siren, and thatgets them into more trouble
because you know what they do?
They race into a situationwithout giving it enough time
(15:34):
for the brain to consider whatmight be happening.
Your folks, even when you go toyou know, hands-on or less than
lethal, at least you can sitback for a minute, take a look,
and assess what's going on, andsay, I can compare that to this
person's previous behavior or tothat wing at that time during
the day or night or somethingwith with with uh uh uh police
(15:56):
work on the road, that tends tobe a little more random.
Do you understand where I'mgoing there?
SPEAKER_01 (16:01):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Um and we also have the ability,you know, most of these big
prisons have a thousand cameras.
SPEAKER_00 (16:09):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (16:10):
So I've got guys who are intelligence specialists who
are watching the camera and cangive you information while it's
going on with a whole differentviewpoint.
Right.
So let me uh ask this, and andand Brian, uh on your website,
and he it kind of leads intowhat Greg was talking about, you
talk about humans have devolved.
(16:31):
And I think prison, we get tosee some of that.
Can you talk to us about howhumans have devolved?
SPEAKER_03 (16:38):
So, what we kind of mean when we say that is um, you
know, our our ability to sensemake and problem solve, our
ability to understand and readand interpret the environment
has devolved.
And and that's that's over thecourse of human history.
It's a it's a slow process, it'sbeen accelerated by newer
technology, uh staring at aphone or screens and stuff like
that.
Meaning there's less sort ofhuman interaction out in the
(17:00):
world today, you know, even withlike kids, you know, and so we
don't learn as many of thelessons that we do anymore.
And so we're kind of so used tonow is there an app for that or
is there a technology for thatthat we're missing a lot of cues
right in front of us?
Now, take that to a prison, alittle bit different, uh um, in
a sense that now you're allreliant on on just that, on just
(17:23):
how someone looks, how theywalk, where they walk, who they
go and associate with.
That's that's how it kind of allused to be done, right?
In a sense, like in how tribesand humans and cliques and
groups would interact with oneanother, right?
We we we look for familiarityand so we we find comfort in
familiarity.
And so we're always going tolook for something that it's
(17:44):
just part of the reason whyhumans, all humans set patterns.
So every person, whether you'rean inmate or you're a
corrections officer, like you'regonna set a pattern.
You can't not do it.
It's what your brain wants todo, it wants to burn less
calories.
So it's gonna consistently dothe same thing over and over
again once it finds a way to dosomething by burning the least
(18:04):
amount of calories.
So what we look for is like,okay, you're gonna set that's a
that's just baseline behavior,and then you kind of if there's
deviations from that, there hasto be a reason.
There's there's some catalystthat caused you to do something
different today.
No one just randomly goes abouttheir day in their business,
like you know, unless there'slike you know, mental health or
(18:24):
or drugs or somethinginvolvement, meaning, meaning it
we all set those patterns.
So what you know, specificallywhat we talk about with a with a
prison is like it's like it'sthat petri dish.
It's that it's that scienceexperiment because there's only
so many things you can do.
There's only so many things youcan do during the day, or so
many places you can go, or orand there's different, you know,
informal rules in prisons, youknow, all over the place of what
(18:47):
who can hang out with who andand and what who belongs to what
group.
And you know, they don't mightnot have a lot of say about that
when they come in, but it'sgonna it's gonna formalize very,
very quickly.
And so that creates its ownecosystem.
And so what a lot of people tryto do is say, here's some things
(19:08):
to look for, you gotta watch outfor this, or you gotta watch out
for that, or here's some somesome pre-event indicators, or
here's some threat indicator, orhere's something, and that
that's all good.
But actually, you go back toeven what your your story from
when you first got there andsomeone showed you, it's like
get really, really good atwhat's normal, what's typical,
what should I expect to see?
(19:30):
The better you get at that, thebetter you get at reading and
understanding a baseline andknowing what normal is, the
easier it is to spot what thosedeviations are.
You may not know what it is,right, or what's going on, but
you'll be able to recognize it.
So, like when I'll go withdifferent groups, whether it's
like a task force or policeofficers doing whatever, or a
(19:50):
military unit, you know, andthey're going, okay, well, we
got this, we kind of look forthese things.
And I'm always like, Well, stop,hang on.
Don't don't tell me what youguys look for.
What should I expect to see?
Right?
We're out on the surveillancething, it's two o'clock in the
morning.
These are the people, like, whatshould they be doing right now?
What's normal for them?
And they go, Well, normallythey're doing this, normally
(20:11):
doing this.
Okay, great.
Because now I can spot, well,that's not normal, because you
said that, and they're going,shit, that's right.
There you must be up tosomething over there.
I didn't even see that.
It's like because you get soused to looking for all of these
different things, like you, youkind of there's some cognitive
biases that that will take over,and now you start to see things
that may not uh that might notactually be there in a sense.
(20:32):
But what you have there withthat ability, especially in the
Daily routine is like, and Gregwas kind of talking about this
earlier, is your brain wants toknow the answer before you get
to the it wants to know the restof the sentence or the paragraph
before you get to the end of it,right?
So it'll fill in words.
It doesn't want to be surprised.
So it'll, it'll, you know, writethings off or you know, not
(20:54):
attend to certain things becauseit's like, nope, I know this.
I've been in here a hundredtimes, you know, I I've got
this.
So what we try to really getpeople to focus on is sort of
that anticipation, right?
So you go, all right, whatbefore I walk out here, what
should I expect to see?
What's normal at this time onthis day, you know, whatever's
(21:15):
going on?
It's because two in theafternoon is different than two
in the morning, Monday'sdifferent than Saturday,
whatever.
Like you have to just know whatis typical, what should I expect
to see?
And then once I place myself inthe environment, the things that
aren't typical, they're gonnajust pop out to me right away.
And now I can start todetermine, okay, well, why is
that?
And I can start to uh sense makea little bit and try to put
(21:36):
things together and go, oh shit,this is now escalating.
That person never sits with thatgroup.
Uh, hang on, they should be overthere.
And you know what?
Wow, now that guy, he neverstands over there.
He's always over there with thatgroup.
Okay, I'll stop right now.
Now we have something before itescalates into whatever's coming
next.
SPEAKER_01 (21:53):
Wasn't that great?
Yeah, absolutely.
I was also thrilled to haveMiles Cook on the podcast.
Now, Miles and I work togetherat Command Presence Training.
He's I love listening to himinstruct.
I'm a huge fan of his classesand the way he reframes problems
to turn them into challenges.
I've learned a ton from Miles.
So I had him on here.
(22:14):
Miles is the trainingcoordinator at uh Walters State
Regional Law EnforcementTraining Academy.
He's a member of the TennesseeCorrections Institute Board,
TCI, which does amazing stufffor Tennessee.
And he's also a competitiveshooter.
So this guy lives and breathestraining.
Uh, in this conversation, wewe're gonna talk about what he
learned in corrections that helpshape the rest of his career.
(22:36):
Thank you, Miles.
SPEAKER_05 (22:38):
When I got there, yeah, I was fit.
I had a formal education, I wasready to roll, or I thought I
was ready to roll, and uh, I getuh into into working into
corrections.
And all right, first thing Iremember, I remember vividly, I
remember the guy's name andeverything.
It's uh all right, you know,we're gonna we're gonna search
search this guy out before hegoes upstairs, you know, the
(22:59):
whole squat and cough.
And uh that that whole kind ofthat whole kind of thing he was
about six foot six, gangly, youknow, and uh, you know, had been
stabbed in the throat, had somemetal in there.
And I got very nervous and Ifigured out very quickly the
skills that I was missing intalking duty.
And it was a real awakeningmoment for me uh in corrections
(23:21):
and then into my into my patroland law enforcement career, I I
was not as ready as I thought Iwas.
And I have always held thebelief, especially in Tennessee
with the sheriff's officeslocally, where corrections and
patrol visions are shared.
That if you want to learn to getgood at those power skills, like
(23:42):
the book behind you, there is nobetter world than corrections.
Absolutely, and so I know forus, you know, in and in some
ways in our in in my instructordevelopment, that's what you're
gonna develop the problem, thenwe're gonna work on a problem
statement, right?
I don't care.
I don't care if the problem is Iwant my line of shooters to be
(24:03):
faster firing your handgun, orI've got a cultural problem, or
how do I get the older people inmy agency to get excited
trained?
If I'm burnt out and I'm readyto quit, how do I feel?
I I don't care what the problemis, right?
It's not mine, it's yours.
So I'm I just want to kind ofhelp you look at it differently
or see if we can find an answer.
(24:24):
And we and we were able to dothat.
And I do think taking obviouslywhat they need into account is
important.
I know for our for thatinstructor development, and I'm
sure you set through a ton ofthem.
I know I have a lot of times,you know, the end is a
five-minute presentation onwhatever you pick, and it's you
know, how to apply a target oryou know, maybe something with
(24:45):
hyperbolt, right?
And so you you kind of deliverthat for us in our in our
instructor development class,when you sit through the
leadership and you sit throughthe problem solving and you sit
through the verbal and nonverbalcommunication, we have some
really killer exercises for thatthat are just amazing.
And you sit through all thesethings.
What you're working toward isactually solving the problem,
(25:07):
then you go through a day tryingto solve the problem, and then
your exercise at the end is a 15to 20 minute presentation based
on how, based on adult learning,based on all the things we went
through, how you plan to fixthat problem.
And so what you leave with is apackaged 15-minute pitch to your
(25:29):
administration on how toactually fix the problem.
So it it it's worked really wellfor us, but you know, I I don't
think it's just training.
I think there's some goodexamples and world.
We want to reduce foot pursuit.
That sounds great.
I would ask you, is that theactual terminal objective?
(25:52):
Well, the the actual realobjective is probably to reduce
the liability associated withfoot pursuits.
Well, that's gonna that's gonnaend up in a different answer.
SPEAKER_01 (26:02):
Another highlight for me this year was Lieutenant
Colonel Dave Grossman.
Now, Lieutenant Colonel Grossmanis an author.
He's a trainer who conductsseminars on the psychology of
lethal force.
Okay.
He's also a retired lieutenantcolonel in the United States
Army.
I've read several of his books.
I love them all.
I learned a ton, and I don'tknow that I have expected to
(26:24):
have him on my podcast.
So I was absolutely thrilled tohave him on the podcast.
In this episode, he speaks tothe role of corrections as a
public servant and why what wedo truly matters.
SPEAKER_02 (26:36):
You know, have you ever heard if you truly love
something, let it go.
If it comes back, it's reallyyours.
Yep.
That's how much God loves us.
He loves us enough to let usmake our own decisions.
That means a lot of people makereally bad decisions and a lot
of really bad things happen.
When I say, God, why don't youdo something?
He said, I did.
I send you.
You are his agent.
You are truly God's agent to dogood in this world, to give
(27:00):
people a second chance, to takecare of people off the streets.
You're truly a public servant.
SPEAKER_01 (27:05):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (27:06):
And and I and I talk in my presentations about the
opposite of evil.
What's the opposite of evil?
The opposite of evil is love.
Evil is absence of love, just asdarkness, absence of light.
And Jesus said, Jesus said,greater love is no one than
this.
That they lay down their lifefor their friends.
(27:26):
But listen, here's the key.
There are many ways to lay downyour life.
There are many ways to lay downyour life.
And sometimes the greatest loveis not to sacrifice your life,
right?
But to live a life of sacrifice.
And that's what corrections is.
Nobody's in this job to getstinking filthy American dream
rich, you know.
SPEAKER_01 (27:45):
No.
SPEAKER_02 (27:46):
Nobody's in this job to be a famous celebrity, at
least not legally, you know.
SPEAKER_01 (27:50):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (27:51):
When he chose this profession, he really chose to a
certain degree, he chose a lifeof sacrifice.
SPEAKER_01 (27:56):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (27:56):
And we must believe you're sacrificed for a noble
and worthy purpose.
And so we began by talking aboutfacing violence and how most
people are not wired to do that.
Right.
But when you face that, you say,I faced that violence today, so
my children didn't have to.
SPEAKER_01 (28:15):
Another one of my guests this year was retired
Bureau of Prisons AssociateWarden Pete Bloodworth.
In this discussion, Pete tellsus about what it was like
walking into one of the toughestprisons in America, Marion,
Illinois.
So he's got a great story here.
And by the way, Pete and anotherguest from this year, Chris
McConnell, have started theirown podcast called Corrections
Unfiltered.
(28:36):
So be sure and go to YouTube andcheck them guys out.
But here's Pete.
SPEAKER_06 (28:40):
Yeah, and it was a jump because I'm coming from, I
could just told you, where theyhug it out, shake it, shake
hands, and swear they'll nevertalk mean to each other again.
You know, Marion, uh, Marion isan institution where they've had
they had three tragic murders ofstaff members, and two staff
members were murdered in thesame day.
And the staff members who werethere, if they weren't there in
(29:01):
1983 when that happened, theyknew they were carrying the
baton for those staff members.
And so when you got there, theydidn't disrespect you, but you
had to earn the respect and showthat you were there for the
right reasons.
Right.
And only until you prove thatwould they embrace you with
caution.
Because you came in as a leaderand they knew that you could
come in and disrupt a lot ofthings.
(29:22):
And there was it wasn't itwasn't anything other than the
fact that you had to believethat you were there to safeguard
not only them, but the BOPbecause that's where the top
tier of bad guys were at.
Unlike the ADX, you know, itstill had the open bar concept,
it still had the old locks whereyou had to select the doors and
pull the levers.
It wasn't push button and stufflike that.
(29:44):
You didn't have sally ports atevery cell to protect you from
when they came out of the cellto a cuff port.
It was you're right there withthem.
So if they didn't like you,things came flying your way.
Uh and that was brought to meone of my first nights there.
They called me down insegregation and said they had a
guy who was a little upset.
Can you come talk to him?
I get there and I'm like, What'sgoing on?
They said, Well, he's down thatway.
And I like cell 17 of 18.
(30:06):
So I walked past all these openbars to get down to the cell.
And there was a guy, and he was,I had seen Rage before, but not
like this.
And when he threw his radio atme and it was a good size, it
was a wood box radio, and thatthing disintegrated and just
came flying by me, and he let meknow that he was going to kill
me.
There was no doubt whatsoever inmy mind he could make that
(30:26):
happen right there.
SPEAKER_01 (30:28):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_06 (30:29):
And I realized, you know, I'm in a whole different
place now.
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (30:34):
And finally, one of my favorite guests this year was
Jimmy Cummings.
Now, Jimmy spent a lifetimeworking in corrections with the
United States Marine Corps, andhe has the stories to prove it.
What you're about to hear is oneof those stories, and it also
became a viral hit for thepodcast.
So I hope you enjoy it.
SPEAKER_04 (30:51):
Bad luck.
And then he had another inmatebecause we had the two prisons.
So this one inmate gets outthrough the mess deck and he
jumps in a dipsy dumpster.
You know, you know what DipsyDumpster is?
The dipsy dumpster is those bigmetal things that they throw
garbage in and everything.
Big enormous garbage can, youknow, with thick metal and
(31:12):
stuff.
And they have to use like a theyhave to use a special dump truck
that comes down.
It's got like a forklift and itlifts the dipsy dumpster up and
dumps it into the into thegarbage truck.
So this inmate, he literallygets in the dipsy dumpster
because he knows the garbagegonna the guy's gonna come.
He's in the dipsy dumpster, sothe the garbage truck comes in,
(31:32):
it puts the the forks in, liftsit up, dumps it in there, and
now the guy that's driving thegarbage truck, he pushes the
button to compress it.
Now this guy's in the backthere, right?
And he's compressing, he's luckyhe didn't compress it all the
way, but he's crushed in therewith all the garbage.
So he leaves the gate, thecompound, but what does he do?
(31:53):
The garbage truck goes to theother brig.
Goes to the other brig, pullsinto the compound.
By the time this inmate workshis way through the garbage to
get out, he jumps out and hestarts running to find out that
he's in the compound of theother prison.
It's a lifetime of storiesthere.
(32:13):
Oh, there's you, yeah, you youtwo.
SPEAKER_01 (32:15):
You guys got such some some stories.
Well, that's it for this year,folks.
I hope you enjoyed it.
I wish each and every one of youa Merry Christmas and a happy,
healthy, and prosperous newyear.
I know several of you are goingto work those holidays, and I
appreciate the fact that you'rethere.
Be safe.
Watch out for each other.
And most of all, just the reasonwe have this podcast, I want you
(32:40):
to remember that what you do andhow you do it matters every day.
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