October 7, 2024 • 55 mins
Meet Adam Dennis, a 28-year law enforcement/corrections veteran, who shares his early days, influenced by his father's advice and his brother's positive experiences, as he navigates through a career filled with challenges and unexpected culture shocks. From playing college baseball to earning a criminology degree, Adam's journey is inspiring and eye-opening.
Adam helps uncover the inner workings of specialized correctional teams, as he delves into the importance of units like CERT and HNT teams. He emphasizes the camaraderie, accountability, and professionalism that these roles demand, along with the leadership qualities that can make or break a team. Adam illustrates how trust, delegation, and high standards in training are crucial for effective team dynamics. His stories bring to life the intense and often unseen world of correctional facilities, shedding light on the importance of leadership and team cohesion.
To contact Adam:
serteou23@gmail.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
In more than 28 years of corrections, I have used or
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(00:24):
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To learn more about Pepperball,go to wwwpepperballcom or click
(00:45):
the show notes below.
Pepperball is the safer optionfirst.
Well, welcome back to thePrison Officer Podcast.
Today I'm really excited to havea new guest, adam Dennis.
He's a 28-year veteran of lawenforcement, served 22 years
with California's state hostagerescue teams.
His SWAT HRT assignmentsincluded assault leader,
(01:09):
tactical element leader and teamcommander.
He served for 10 years in theemergency operations unit as the
lieutenant responsible for thetraining and certification of
over 400 hostage rescue teams.
Those members were spreadacross 19 teams throughout the
state of California.
In addition, he spent 10 yearswith the DOJ Trident and
(01:29):
Narcotics Task Force and wasresponsible for certifying team
members as instructors intactical firearm certifications,
entry operations and high riskwarrants and hostage rescue
operations.
Holds certifications in OC,lsdds, chemical agents, less
lethal munitions.
He's very well-rounded in thetraining, I am sure, so I'm
(01:51):
excited to talk to him today.
Before we get there, I want togive a shout out to Liam McGee,
who he's one of our listenersand he reached out to me and
said I had this guy in class.
You got to get him on thepodcast.
I want to hear his stories.
So Liam's the one that kind ofbrought us together here.
So how are you doing today,adam?
I'm doing great.
Sounds like an exciting careerthere, yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
I was fortunate, you know, I was always around good
people.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
Absolutely.
Well, if you've listened to thepodcast, I always like to start
at the beginning, so kind ofwalk me through where you grew
up at and how that was with highschool and sports and that type
of stuff.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
Okay, I grew up in a little town up in the Sierra
Nevada mountains called Sonora,California, I'd say in the
mountains.
It was a foothill communityabout oh, we're probably
probably about 80 miles a littlebit south and a little bit west
of lake tahoe okay, a littlecommunity yeah, my mom and dad
uh a very strong christian, sowe went to a christian
(02:57):
elementary school and achristian high school, a small
high school.
So, uh, I have an identical twinbrother, um, and we, we
basically played uh soccer, uhbasketball and baseball because
they needed people right andwith an identical twin.
You probably played pranks onpeople only when we were younger
it only happened once and dadfound out, and that was the end
(03:19):
of that oh, that was the end ofthat, oh yeah okay, so where'd
you go after high school?
I went to a?
Uh christian college down in uhthe san fernando valley, just
outside of magic mountain, atown called new hall, california
.
Uh, the college is calledmasters college, so okay didn't,
didn't quite get the degree.
I went down more than anythingto play a little college
(03:40):
baseball, non-scholarshipcollege baseball, so okay I was
down there for, I think, two anda half years yeah, what was
your major besides baseball?
Criminology.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
Criminology was my major yeah so you know you were
going to go into criminology no,I, I, to be perfectly honest
with you.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
My dad um worked for, uh, the california department
of of Transportation for many,many, many years.
I retired as a supervisor after33 years, but once we're
getting done with college hejust kind of encouraged us to
look for a state job for theretirement.
(04:18):
That was his big thing, so wewould have a good retirement.
The Department ofTransportation was not really
hiring and I don't want to godown, they were hiring but
anyway.
But corrections was starting toboom and had a friend, an
acquaintance and plus our olderbrother had just got into
(04:41):
corrections.
He loved it.
He said it's a great job.
What year is this?
This would have been, uh, Iwent through the correctionals
academy in 1991 okay, well, youentered corrections.
Speaker 1 (04:55):
I came in in the first of 1992, so, okay, yeah,
yeah, we've been doing thisalmost as long.
So your brother went into andhe came back with good reports.
Speaker 2 (05:06):
My twin brother actually got hired about six
months before me.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
Okay.
Had you ever thought aboutcorrections before that?
Did you know what prison andjail?
Speaker 2 (05:15):
was, Didn't have any idea what it was, Didn't realize
the culture shock that I wasgoing to be exposed to, as you
well know.
Yeah, I didn't know any of that, Didn't know nothing about it.
I just at the time, thestarting payout there was really
good and to this day it'sreally good, and you know just
(05:40):
really didn't have a plan.
I knew that I was going to tryit.
I told myself, if I don't likeit, then maybe I'll I'll do
something else.
But I enjoyed it from the veryfirst day.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
So, going to a Christian school, do you think
you were a I don't know a littlebit at a disadvantage as far?
As you probably didn't have anygangs in your school.
You probably didn't have muchcriminality running around.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
And that's exactly right.
Okay, exactly right.
And we grew up in the town wegrew up in with 150 people.
Oh wow, no gangs or anything upthere either.
Speaker 1 (06:16):
Yeah, so you're learning on the run when you
walk through the door.
Yes, yes.
So tell me about that firsttime the door slams and tell me
about that first year.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
I have a really funny story about my first day.
I had an inmate walk up to me.
He was from the Rolling 90sCrips in Los Angeles, california
, and at the time when I startedthe inmates were still allowed
to have weight piles and whatnot.
So I'm sure you can attest tothis.
(06:46):
It's amazing how big they got.
You know lifting their weightsyeah people don't realize.
Yeah, he was probably 6'2" andas far as his upper body went,
there wasn't a bodybuilderaround that had anything on him.
I mean he was a giant man.
And he said he looked at myname tag and he said Dennis.
I said yes, sir.
(07:06):
He said new guy.
I said yes, sir.
He said what would you do if Idecide I'm going to put my hands
on you right now?
I said I'm going to hold on fordear life and when my partners
get here you're going to regretthat decision.
And he looked me in the eyesand he said you're going to get
along just fine.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
Yep Good answer.
Speaker 2 (07:23):
Just a little test first day Sure, yeah, see where
it stood.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
I remember kind of a similar thing and I know that
the other officers were backwatching us new group, you know
but they walked up and they gotin this one guy's face and you
know they were saying things tohim and he got all worked up and
he's emotional.
And of you know they weresaying things to him and he got
all worked up and he's emotionaland of course they just blew
him up, that one officer.
They just blew him up and uh,then he walks over to me.
(07:49):
He goes what's your name?
I said Cantrell, that's all Isaid.
You know the other guy's likeyou don't need to know my name,
and that was it.
You know he moved on to theshow off or you don't have to
show how bad you are, no.
Which is a thing that rookiesoften do.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
Yes, yes, yeah.
So you know, the first year wasjust, you know, as you well
know, a big learning curve.
The California DOC prisonsgenerally, a normal-sized prison
will have three facilities and1100 beds on those facilities.
So, um, I think, uh, peoplethat have never been inside the
(08:30):
prison system don't realize hownumber outnumbered you really
are.
Um, we were fortunate um mostnot all some of the older
prisons don't, but most of themodern prisons in california,
not too many places where youdon't have a tower or gun
coverage above you, um inside,outside.
So that's always an advantage.
But you know it was a biglearning curve.
(08:52):
Um, I met a lot of good peoplethat first year, Um, and then I
met um a couple of uh, uhcorrectional officers, and
that's how my um that thatreferred to there was a group
that referred to them as prisonguards.
They didn't want to be calledcorrectional officers and you
know we were sworn policeofficers in the state.
I just thought it was kind of ain in my heart it was kind of a
(09:14):
derogatory term.
I know some people like to becalled prison guards, but I just
, I just thought it kind of tookaway um from the profession
that we were involved in.
You know, sure and I had plentyof them at shift change would
just throw their keys down thetable and just say good luck,
not give me any advice.
What's going on in the pod?
What's going on in the unit?
Anything I need to know?
(09:34):
Here's your keys.
See you tomorrow, youngster, youknow and I told myself, if I
ever get to the point where I'ma senior person, I was going to
help out everybody that asked meanything as best as I could.
Yeah, and that's how I wasraised.
Speaker 1 (09:50):
Oh, absolutely yeah, and I don't know I think you
mentioned it the camaraderiethat I felt immediately.
Of course you do, becausethere's nothing like the first
time that you end up on thebottom of a pile or fighting an
inmate and 20 people show up tohelp you.
Most people have neverexperienced that before in their
life.
(10:10):
You know, I got in a fight inlike sixth grade, got beat up by
an eighth grader and all myfriends ran.
You know the other way and thenyou come inside and it's like
this you know it's camaraderiethey care for you, they care
about you.
Maybe not personally, maybe notthe person you are deep inside,
but they do care.
As another officer.
(10:32):
And that's something that takesa little bit to get used to.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
And I think that's a great point.
You know, we had, thank God, bythe time I got in we were
getting a lot more sophisticated.
We had personal alarm devicesthat would, you know, have a
blue light flashing and a sirenon, you know, on whatever
building we might be in, and itwas just good to know that when
you hit that you knew peoplewere coming.
(10:56):
Without a doubt there waspeople coming, and so if I was
like, say, a search and escortofficer or a yard officer, you
know, when a blue light went offin a building, no one was going
to keep me from getting therebecause I knew people needed
assistance.
You know, anyway, you do get acloseness in a brotherhood
because you're outnumbered right, I mean vastly outnumbered.
Speaker 1 (11:18):
Yeah, there's nobody else to help you, it's just the
people inside.
Yep, yeah, so at some point youdiscovered the teams?
I guess yes, so tell me aboutthat.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
Okay, a little background about the teams.
I'm sure a lot of yourlisteners and yourself remember
the 1980 New Mexico riot wherethey lost basically the entire
prison and it ended up a bunchof National Guards and State
Patrol and finally Russia prisonand it was a really bad
situation and a lot of peoplelost their lives.
(11:53):
So the governor at the time Iwant to say McCarthy, but don't
quote me on that asked thedirector of corrections if this
happens to one of my prisons,prisons, do we have people that
can handle it?
And he said no.
And he said, okay, you got sixmonths.
I want a plan, I want teamsstationed at every prison that
(12:15):
will have the capability whetherit's a hostage rescue, uh, a
giant incident where you knowthe regular staff on duty can't
handle.
I want people that areprofessionally trained to handle
that.
So that's kind of how itstarted and that was around 1983
.
So by the time I got, I triedout for the team in 1996, my
(12:38):
twin brother was already a teammember and he was the one that
kind of told me hey, you got todo this, you have the right
personality for it, um, and I atfirst, you know, I wasn't too
sure about it, um, but he kepton me and he said you're going
to love it.
He said you said you think it'sa brotherhood out there way to
get on this team, um, and so, uh, you know, I went to tryouts
(12:58):
and it's a long, hard day, um.
There there's no hazinginvolved, but they do test your
commitment.
There's a lot of commitmenttests during that day.
Are you going to quit?
Are you going to keep going, nomatter how tired you are?
Um, and a lot of other goodtests.
Can you?
Can you stay calm?
Can you keep a clear mind?
Can you make proper decisionsthat need to be made?
So I was fortunate, um, to passtryouts.
(13:21):
Um had a, took a shower, gotour class aides on then and then
we had to have an interviewwith the commander, assistant
commander and the seniorinstructors on the team and I
was fortunate, very fortunate,looking back, that they saw
something in me that theythought would make a good team
member and it really changed thewhole trajectory of my career
(13:43):
that day In California, eventhough we're prison-based before
the last 10 years, when I wentout to oversee the teams and
whatnot, we got called out ofthe prison all the time A lot
more now than back then, becausenow they're really helping
(14:04):
local law enforcement uh, almoston a daily basis.
One of the 19 teams is probablyout doing something, a warrant
or um, assisting with uh uh gangsweeps in in Fresno on a Friday
, saturday night.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
So well, you guys are your, your actual peace
officers when you graduate fromthe academy.
So that makes a big differencefor those agencies that have
that.
You know some places they don'thave that as a correctional
officer so they're not spendingmuch time outside.
Speaker 2 (14:33):
I found out it just differs from state to state.
You never know Like Ohio wasvery much so based along the
lines that we were out inCalifornia.
So it's just on astate-by-state basis and we were
fortunate enough to be peaceofficers and if we got a mutual
aid request, our color ofauthority immediately
transferred to the PD or thesheriff's department that asked
(14:55):
us to come with them.
Speaker 1 (14:56):
Yeah, you know, when rookies ask me, they'll say you
know what's a piece of advice?
Well, one of the pieces ofadvice I always give them is if
you can get on a team, I don'tcare what team, I don't care if
it's negotiations, I don't careif it's HRT, cert, whatever If
you can get on a team, becausenot only the camaraderie, but
now you have a group of peoplethat hold you accountable right,
(15:18):
exactly.
You have access to training thatyou won't have, so you're going
to be one of the more trainedofficers when stuff hits and
equipment.
Possibly even Tell me aboutsome of that.
I mean, do you look at that?
The same for rookies whenthey're coming in?
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (15:36):
You know we always looked at especially when I got
started getting up toward thecommand level, making decisions
or helping the commander make adecision before I was a
commander, you know we weren'tone for tryouts.
We weren't necessarily lookingfor the fastest, biggest,
strongest people.
You know we were looking forsomeone that was a consummate
professional, that had zeroarrogance and wanted to do the
(15:58):
job for all the right reasons,you know, and so we were looking
at people and what we wouldtell them is this hey, listen,
you get on a specialized team.
There could come a day in yourcareer it might or it might not,
but there could come a day inyour career where the only hope
that your fellow correctionalofficers ever have of coming
home is going to be you sure.
And I said that's, that's a bigcommitment that you're making.
(16:18):
That's a big commitment.
So, um, yeah, I would say, andI agree with you, whether it's a
cert team, a cell extractionteam, riot control team, a
negotiator, get on a team ifyou're so inclined and you want
to do something extra, dosomething beyond just going in
for eight hours and going home.
(16:38):
And it's not for everyone, butI would encourage people that if
that's your personality, thenseek those people out, ask them
questions, sure, see what theythink about being on those teams
, you know.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
And some of them are.
I know the Bureau of Prisonshas a crisis support team, which
is people who just walk aroundand, you know, talk after we
have an incident or something.
You got the negotiation teams,so I think you could find a spot
somewhere if you look hardenough.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
So I know, at one point you made a team leader, so
tell me about what it's likebeing a team leader.
What was your leadership styleat that point?
Speaker 2 (17:20):
in your career, my leadership style was to put good
people in charge of each squadthat I could trust.
And they knew we had an annualtraining plan.
Um, they, they could look at it.
They knew that when ourtraining was coming up, what
we're going to be training on,um, they would let me know.
Um, hey, we're going to beteaching this class.
Um, uh, rob Sharky is going toteach this part of it.
(17:41):
Phil Jensen is going to teachthis part of it.
Um, and I'd let them do theirjob, because I wouldn't have
picked them for that job if Ididn't trust them.
So, you know, and they alwaysreported back to me on how
training and I would go aroundand watch all the trainings, of
course, by then, and still, Iwould still run, jump and shoot
with them and all that goodstuff.
Because I made a commitmentthat, no matter where I went, if
(18:06):
I couldn't do thequalifications, the minimum
qualifications with guys I wasasking to do it, then I wasn't
going to, I was going to stepdown immediately.
So sure, and all the teams werethat way.
But one of the biggest parts iswhen you, when you become, you
know, and that position is theliaison to the chief deputy
(18:28):
warden in the ward.
And you know, and I told myguys, I don't care what they ask
us to do, we're going to do itand we're going to be
professional about it.
I don't care if they need us togo put sandbags to keep water
from coming into prison,whatever, whatever the mission
is, care if they need us to goput sandbags to keep water from
coming into prison, whatever,whatever the mission is.
(18:49):
Um, and I told them you know, Idon't want you to get in with
any of your line supervisors orany of that.
If, if any of that happens andyou come talk to me, um, I'm the
person that will go talk tothem and you know, and we'll
work it out.
So, and you know, so I was agood buffer for them and now you
know that was.
I felt part of myresponsibility was being a
buffer for them, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
When it came to administration.
Yeah, Take that off theirshoulders and let them do their
job.
Speaker 2 (19:16):
Let them do their job .
Speaker 1 (19:17):
Yep, yeah.
Another thing you mentioned, uh, just a second ago, was you
used to go around and watch thetraining and, uh, I was teaching
a class last week.
I teach for command presenceand I teach leading when it hits
the fan, which is for firstline supervisors decisions that
you make.
And one of the discussions wegot into was know your team's
(19:37):
capabilities, how often do yougo out and watch what they can
do?
Because, just like thatgovernor, you know when.
When he came back and he saiddo you have people in place that
can do that?
Well, thank God that thedirector gave him an honest
answer no, I don't.
There's a lot of administratorsout there that think I've got a
cert team so I can put them inwhatever instance there is, and
(20:02):
that's just not true.
It takes training, it takescommitment.
Talk to me a little bit aboutthat.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
Yeah, you know, we were part-time.
So you know, and I remember mycommander telling me, adam, the
easiest thing that you will everdo for this job is to stay in
elite physical condition.
He said it makes all the otherstuff that's harder a little bit
easier when you're doing it.
(20:29):
So, um, and you know and I tookthat to heart Um, and we would
have to do a lot of that on ourown time.
You know we weren't gettingpaid for it.
You know, going out for a runafter work or run before work,
um, hitting the weight room, youknow, on our own time in it, um
, it, I would tell people thatdo have spouses out there that
(20:50):
if you're going to decide to godown that road, you need to sit
down and have an honestconversation with them.
I do this, but there there'sgoing to be some times where I'm
going to have to be out goingto the gym, I'm going to have to
go for a run, and there's goingto be some times, at the most
inconvenient time it could everbe, where my pager I had pagers
(21:11):
back then or my cell phone lateron is going to go off and no
matter what I'm doing, I have torespond and that's the
conversation.
I really challenge youngcorrectional staff if they're
going to get on a specializedteam, just have that
conversation with the spouse.
It can save a lot ofmiscommunication and heartache
later on.
Speaker 1 (21:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:30):
Yeah, I had a great support.
Speaker 1 (21:32):
I had a great wife who put up with a lot when, I
was on the canine unit.
You know we'd get called outand escape.
She wouldn't know where I wasfor two, maybe three days.
I'm in the woods there's nophones.
We didn't have a phoneeverywhere back then, you know,
so she'd just sit home and worryor watch the news.
So no, that's absolutely right,yeah I haven't talked with them
(21:52):
, because they're going to beinvested in your time on the
team yes, they are wow and youneed their support to do it.
You need their support, yeah sotell me, as a leader, what was
one of the toughest decisionsthat you had to make during that
time.
Anything stand out.
Speaker 2 (22:13):
I didn't have to make too many tough decisions.
You know, one of the toughestthings was if we were running a
tryout and there was a lot ofgood people they gave everything
they had at the tryout, but itjust they, they, they weren't
going to be capable of doingwhat needed to be done.
Um, some of them were friendsof mine.
you know that I worked with onthe line with um and that was
(22:36):
always tough um yeah, and therewas a couple of times where um
one time in particular where atthe time this decision was made,
I was assistant and I had agreat commander and me and him
kind of had to make a decisionabout telling someone that they
couldn't be on the team no more,and that was tough.
But you know, me and him, wehad a long talk about it and he
(23:00):
said this is hard for me, adam,what do you think?
I said, well, I mean it is hard.
But I said you know, we justgot to look at the team as a
whole, not the individual.
You know, we've got to makethis decision for the team.
And and there was other teammembers, um, at the time um
didn't quite, uh, understandthat, but they came around later
(23:20):
on, um, when all the facts cameout about, it Right.
Other than that I the hardestdecisions I made was later on,
when I started running.
I had oversight to run in theschools.
I had to make some pretty toughdecisions then.
Speaker 1 (23:34):
Yeah, now, which job was that?
Is that the emergencyoperations?
Speaker 2 (23:39):
yeah.
So I started going down.
Um, we would run, uh, four tosix schools a year a basic SWAT,
which was nine days, and thenan advanced hostage rescue
school, which was another ninedays, generally about six months
apart.
But throughout the year wewould run maybe a sniper school.
(23:59):
We'd get input from the team.
Say what school do we need themost right now for attrition?
It might be a tactical firearmsinstructor school.
It might be an entry operationsinstructor school for
instructors.
So on a good year we'd run fourto six courses a year and I was
, very fortunate, A really goodteam member of mine.
(24:20):
He ended up getting a job tooversee the teams and he
immediately asked me to startcoming down as an instructor and
that was a big commitmentbecause he wanted me at all the
schools and, um, you knowthey're each nine days.
We get down there a couple daysearly make sure the base is all
set up for us.
So that's a lot of time awayfrom home, but it was something.
(24:41):
You know.
I'd already been fortunate atthe help and I was teaching at
the team.
You know had been through justabout all the schools at that
point but I really fell in lovewith teaching new operators.
So when he asked me if I'd bewilling to come down, I was.
I was pretty over the topexcited about coming down, but
(25:02):
it was for all the right reasons.
It wasn't about me, you know.
I wanted to.
I wanted to help.
We had a really good thinggoing.
I wanted to keep it going.
Speaker 1 (25:10):
Yeah, absolutely A little bit of legacy there.
Speaker 2 (25:13):
Yeah, a lot of good people came before so we felt
like we owed it to them.
All the people that fought allthe fights to keep the team they
.
At one time, before I got onthe teams, there was a big
movement, pretty hype, in thedepartment to get rid of the
teams.
They thought it was a waste ofmoney and resources.
And a lot of good people thatwere in charge of the program
(25:36):
fought a good fight and wereable to convince the decision
makers hey, you need us, you'regoing to need us.
Speaker 1 (25:43):
Yeah, I think, for those listening, I think every
agency goes through that at onetime or another.
You know you get really goodteams, you're doing your job,
things are not happening, sothey decide, oh, this is a place
we can spend money.
And then, as soon as they startbacking off on training,
backing off on teams, whenthings go to shit and now we
(26:03):
need them back, so yeah, I thinkevery agency goes through that.
I think so.
Um, let's talk a little bitabout california.
I had a ron on here in episode37.
He retired from san quentin,but you know, california is its
own.
Is it still the second largestsystem behind texas?
Speaker 2 (26:22):
as far as I know, it is I know they closed couple of
prisons but at one time when Iwas working we always covered
around 100,000 peopleincarcerated or something like
that if I remember right.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
Yeah, and I think that's about where you're at now
.
I always the thing I ran into afew years back when I was
working for the BOP.
The budget for California is$18.1 billion for CDCR, the
Bureau of Prisons.
The federal side of that, orside of corrections, is $8.1
(26:55):
billion.
So it really talks to theamount of money that's poured
into the CDCR out there.
Yes, but you guys have gangproblems.
It started out there.
I mean, that's the beginning ofprison.
Gangs was in the Californiaprisons.
So you deal with it violenceand stuff at a, I think, just at
(27:18):
a different level.
There's more of them out there.
Speaker 2 (27:21):
Tell me a little bit about what you saw there with uh
, I really got into gangs, um,and I was fortunate, uh, enough
to, um, I end up being asergeant, uh, running the gang
investigations unit at theprison that I was at at the time
.
Okay, um, so you know, and Ihad, up until that point, I'd
(27:43):
really educated myself.
Um, I was a yard officer,search and escort officer before
I made sergeant.
I would go around havingconversations with serenios and
asking about where they grew upWell, what neighborhood is that?
So I actually made a binder andhad all the little acronyms
(28:03):
that they would tattoo on themthat would signify what part of
LA or San Diego or San GabrielValley they were from.
So I really got reallyknowledgeable in that and it
really helped me on the yardbecause I could talk to them and
if they're, you know, say theirshirts are off on a summer day,
I could look at them and say,oh, hey, you're from La Puente
(28:24):
or you're from Bridgetown.
Look at him and say, oh, hey,you're from La Puente or you're
from Bridgetown, you know you're.
Hey, you're from White Fence,and it was a way to open up a
conversation.
So they're like, wow, he doesknow where we're from, you know.
So I was fortunate enough to endup being the gang investigator
(28:45):
for the prison.
Actually, I think I might havemisspoke.
I wasn't a sergeant, but youhad two sergeants in I guess you
would call it institutionalinvestigations unit.
Sure Investigated all thingsand they my one sergeant had
asked me to come in and be thehead gang investigator for the
prison.
You know, and I really enjoyedthat job, it wasn't a level.
(29:10):
I wasn't at a maximum securityprison at the time.
We had a level one, a level twoand then a level three yard and
most of the stuff went down onthe level two yard.
There was so many of them.
It was an open dorm setting,you know, 1100 people out on the
yard and that's where all thebig, the big incidents went down
(29:30):
was on that yard, um.
But uh, you know, california umis very unique, um, um, because
we have, you know, gangs thatbasically started back in the
you know 60s um, I guess aroundthe 60s um, and I heard your
podcast.
You know, uh, I think it wasron, was it ron?
(29:51):
From san clint, yeah, yeah, andhe basically gave a good
history of that why they started.
You know a lot of mostlystarted as protection groups and
it just kind of morphed afterthat.
Um, um.
You know, the thing that reallyhelped us with the prison gangs
was when they started openingthe SHU units up.
But since I've retired, they'vepretty much emptied the SHU
(30:13):
units out.
A lot of those guys are outwalking around now.
Speaker 1 (30:18):
Yeah, you've got to help a lot of people that don't
know what they're doing inpolitics, who've decided
restrictive housing is meanbecause they don't understand
what it does.
But you bring up a great pointand I want to back up to this
because you talked about how youwalked out on the yard and you
talked to these guys and when Igo inside these days and look
(30:41):
around and investigationsespecially, I see a lot of
people who are counting onreading letters and listening to
the phone.
You know they're, they'rewatching the cameras.
Cameras are the big thing.
I can see everything and I knoweverything.
If I watch the cameras and I'mgoing to argue that you don't
you know we.
We were taught to get out thereand talk to them, to watch them
(31:03):
, to be part of that yard.
That yard should not be leftalone.
You get the information bythose inmates know you and you
get to know them.
So talk to me more about that.
I love that you brought that up.
Speaker 2 (31:31):
Well, you know, I made a point before I got into
the gang unit, when I wasworking on the yards.
Was was hey, I want to, and Idon't like using the name shot
caller.
I, I, um, I like to think ofmore as, um, you know, the og
people, um, they do, they havethe ability to make calls, sure,
um, but I got to know who wasrunning everything right.
And so a perfect example is,say, if a Norteno disrespected
one of the correctional officersand it was a correctional
(31:51):
officer, I knew that wasn'tblowing it out of proportion or
anything like that Instead ofgoing and finding that young guy
and maybe getting in aconfrontation with him, I would
go talk to all.
I don't want to say his namebecause he's out now and he's
doing really good I've heard,but anyway, I'll just say his
name was Speedy, a long, longtime Norteno.
(32:12):
When he would come out dressedto the nines shoes, polished,
everything, pressed, and hereally carried himself very,
very respectful, and you know meand him had a good rapport, and
I remember him telling me hey,listen, you know, you've always
been so respectful to me and ourguys.
He said, if you ever have aproblem with any of my people
(32:35):
before he has to get locked upor something.
If you come talk to me, justgive me a chance, and if you
still got locking up, Iunderstand that.
So this particular youngster,you know, 21 years old, and he
really said a really derogatorything to a female correctional
officer and she was very upsetabout it.
(32:58):
She came to me right awaybecause she knows I've been on.
At the time I think I'd beenworking that yard as either
search and escort or officer forprobably 12 years, so I really
knew everyone on the yard, um.
So I went down and talked tothis guy and I said hey, um,
this is what happened.
I believe her um, uh, here'swhat I would like to see.
(33:18):
I would like to see him, um,apologize to her.
Sure, um, if he can't do that,then we'll have to go down a
different road.
But I know he's young, he justgot here, can you talk to him?
He said I'll talk to him.
Half hour later, um met us inthe sergeant's office and this
kid had been crying.
I don't know what he did to him, but um and he, I'm sorry,
(33:43):
that's not how the Nortainers onthis yard conduct ourselves.
I'm trying to get used toprison life, you know, and just
having a bad day, and you know,because you don't know what's
affecting them that day.
Maybe they got a bad call fromtheir mom, a bad call from their
girlfriend, you don't know.
Sure, and he I could tell hewas sincere, he was, he was
(34:03):
truly sincere about it.
So, you know, I think thecommunication aspect and showing
them respect, I used to tellthem all listen, you'll have
nothing but 100 respect for meuntil you don't give it to me,
and then we're going to go downan entirely different road.
Um, but I'm sure you saw this,um, the one thing that really
bothered me about, um, uh, somepeople in corrections, um, you
know, they thought the badge wassix foot tall and and they
(34:24):
could just go around being abully you know, now, you didn't
see a lot of that on the levelfour maximum security yards,
because you just wouldn't getaway with it yeah, they get
weededout pretty quick, yeah, on some
of the lower yards, and whatthey have to tell everybody.
Hey, listen, yeah, these guysare on a level two yard trying
to get a level one yard so theycan go be a firefighter.
But if you look at theirhistory, they've worked their
way down from maximum securityyards so they've been on those
(34:46):
heavy yards.
You know sure, um, and even ifan old sereno wasn't hasn't been
recognized by us as being partof the mexican mafia.
I guarantee you he had cousins,um, and I guarantee you he had
people from his neighborhoodthat were were part of his
little clique, and they all knoweach other they all know each
(35:06):
other.
You know.
So the respect thing and theway you carry yourself, and uh,
and I just found out the more Italked to him, interested in how
their lives were when theyweren't locked up, would ask him
how things are going on theyard.
How is it going?
Is there any issues?
You know, is anything botheringyou?
And I was sincere about thatbecause you know there would be
(35:29):
11 of us on yard and they'd beletting out 1100 inmates Right.
So you had to have thatcommunication skill and you know
they knew where I stood and.
I knew where they stood, but atthe same time, that does not
mean that you cannot showcompassion for people as long as
they know.
This is not weakness.
This is just me asking how youare.
You know, sure.
Speaker 1 (35:50):
Sure, yeah, you know, um, you'll see corrections,
people, and they talk about itand they'll sit through the
class, you know, when they'relearning leadership, and the
number one thing that you needas a leader is influence, and to
me, that's what some of what Icommunication Absolutely.
But you were going to the yardto find the person that had
influence with other inmates.
(36:11):
You were staying involved withthem so that you could have
influence, and you're absolutelyright.
Too many people think that youwait till the situation happens,
that you wait till thesituation happens.
Well, if you haven't developeda, you know, a discourse or
influence with that inmatebefore that moment, you're not
going to get it while they'reblowed up and, you know, hitting
(36:33):
on the door or whatever.
So I think we need to get awayfrom being so worried about some
of those words.
Influence is a good word.
If you're leading inmates, youhave to have influence with yeah
, they're not going to listen toyou.
Speaker 2 (36:45):
Yeah, then we're going to have chaos.
It's just real quick.
One of the you know you talkabout um, communication with the
, and knowing the influence andand them having enough respect
for you to come with a problemto you, knowing that you're not
going to blow the problem out ofproportion.
You're going to deal with itrespectfully, the right way.
Yeah, there's a guy I'll callhim cj.
He was from the bay area.
I'm a 415 gang member, um, bigguy, um, he had salt and pepper
(37:10):
braided hair, so he wasdefinitely an og but still in
tremendous shape, and me and himhad a great respect for each
other.
Um, um and we had, we had areally good rapport and um, uh,
I'll never forget.
Uh, the yard had only beenopened up after dinner for maybe
half hour and uh, he came downto the sergeant's office and he,
he told the sergeant hey, Ineed to talk to Dennis Um, and
(37:34):
the sergeant knew him, so heknew it was serious.
So I went outside and I saidwhat's up?
Well, him and Speedy, both um,wanted to talk to me and I said,
hey, what's up?
Guys, I lived in the same dorm,so the dorm for 36 beds, right
um, and they're secured by twosteel doors on each end, um
concrete walls.
And um, they said, hey, man,that guy.
They moved in in the dorm and Isaid I I didn't look at the the
(37:57):
movement after dinner.
Well, when he came in the dorm,he basically told he's a white
guy, um, skinhead from, uh, Iwant to say san bernardo,
california.
And he basically told I'm notgoing to be living with no ends
and no farmers and kind of aderogatory term to the
nortanians.
Well, sure, cj um and uh, twoof his guys had this guy in the
(38:20):
bathroom with a shank.
They were going to kill him.
And cj said stop everybody,stop what you're doing.
Let's get dennis involved.
Um, he'll get this guy out ofthis dorm, right, and they're,
and even the youngsters like,are you sure?
And he goes if I ask him to.
Yes, I'm going to tell himexactly what's going on, because
he knew.
And so here I told him okay, I'mgoing to move him, all right
(38:42):
nope I'll put him back down in adorm with Serrano's instead of
Norteno's, but here's whatyou're going to do for me.
He said what I'm going to dofor you.
I said as soon as I lock thefront door after he leaves, I
want that weapon to come out thewindow of the back door, out on
the tier.
Are we understood?
And he said absolutelyunderstood, adam.
Are we understood?
(39:04):
And he said absolutelyunderstood, adam.
I said okay, you were honestwith me.
We'll call it even at thatpoint.
Um, I can get a weapon off theyard and no one's gonna die.
It was all because they knew me.
They would.
They knew that I wasn't gonnabe like charging in there,
tearing up the dorm, you know,yeah if you had never talked to
them before that moment.
Speaker 1 (39:19):
You had no, you had no way to talk to them at that
moment.
Yeah, they wouldn't came at,they wouldn't came to talk to me
.
Speaker 2 (39:24):
You know, who knows what would happen that night.
Speaker 1 (39:25):
So yeah, yeah we need more of that these days kind of
unfortunate.
Speaker 2 (39:29):
Uh, I want to.
It's one of my fondest memoriesbecause I thought you know I I
did a lot of hard work, you know, building that respect and
rapport with those influencersum to have them come through
with a major issue, you know,and I was going to handle it the
right way.
And you know, and I did it theright way, you know, I let the
sergeant know what was going onand told him here was my plan.
What do you think he goes?
That's perfect, adam.
If you can make that happen,that would be great, yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:51):
I think a lot of people that don't know
corrections, not those that workin it, but the people on the
outside.
But most of those inmates,except for the violent ones,
we've usually got them at reallyhigh institutions.
Most of those inmates want todo their time quietly.
They want to do it.
Speaker 2 (40:08):
They want to go out.
Speaker 1 (40:09):
They want to get their rec, they want to get
their education, and when peoplelike that show up, you know, if
they did have to stab him orsomething like that, it would
shut down the whole institution,nobody's done anything for a
day.
Speaker 2 (40:22):
Oh yeah, yeah, I think that's one of the
misconceptions out there yeah,and you know that, um, for the
most part, the, the hispanicscontrol most of the drug
trafficking in californiaprisons.
Um, and they're the last onesthat want to see something go
down, especially on the lowerlevel yards, because if they get
locked down there's no onecoming in to visit and it just
(40:43):
stops the whole flow of moneyand everything.
Speaker 1 (40:45):
It's like a small business.
Speaker 2 (40:46):
You know, most people are like what?
Speaker 1 (40:48):
Yeah, that's why it's like a small business in the
pandemic.
Yes, so how many years did youstay with California?
28 years, 28 years?
Speaker 2 (41:01):
Wow yeah, my last 10, 18.
I was on the inside and then Iwas very fortunate enough you
know I've been going down as aninstructor and my good buddy
Doug, promoted to the SSU unit,which is another law enforcement
arm in corrections.
All special agents and hissergeant had promoted to
(41:22):
lieutenant Chris and Chris said,hey, I want you to interview
for the job.
I'd really like you to start.
And then that was another thingI really had to think about
because that was going to be ahuge commitment.
I had to move down toSacramento and that's where the
office was at, going to be gonea lot.
And you know I thought, Ithought long and hard about it,
but I made a decision.
You know, like anything longand hard about it, but I made a
(41:45):
decision.
You know, like anything else,once I made it I was going to be
committed to it and this is thetask force right the Department
of Justice task force.
So the emergency operations unit.
They oversee several things.
They oversee all the guns andbullets in the prison.
(42:06):
But me, when I promoted as asergeant with chris and then
when chris left, I promote tolieutenant tim came with me.
Our job was we over?
We had oversight over thetraining assessment and, uh,
certification okay, the membersthat were coming down to our
schools to be certified membersso along with that.
Um, you know, I got up there anda lot of the guys, like the ssu
(42:28):
guys, the fusion apprehensionpeople, um, almost all of them
have come out of corrections umdoing all the street stuff.
Um, they uh we started goingout and helping um, uh, one of
the doj funded narcotics taskforce teams, uh, okay, later,
later on they're called.
Right now they were a differentname now but I don't want to
put that name out becausethere's some stuff that went
(42:50):
down.
Anyway, that's fine.
So, whenever you know, like anytask force, they had like a
core of dudes.
That that's all they did, taskforce members.
But then when we would startworking a case, say, a hit was
coming up or a warrant here,whatever we got it, we'd have to
go down and take down amarijuana grow, sure, um, so
we'd get involved.
If they needed some of the teamguys to enhance our numbers, um
(43:11):
, it would go through me and mycaptain.
Yeah, well, how many do youneed?
What can we do to assist?
Whatever you know, whatever itis.
So, um, wore a lot of hats thelast 10 years, but it was fun,
it was a good time, yeah.
Speaker 1 (43:26):
Well, I think you're kind of like me.
You haven't done a real goodjob of retiring because from
what I hear, you're stillteaching.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (43:32):
You know I was, uh, um, when I was doing all the
team stuff, um, you know whenwe'd run our school.
You know we were such a bigorganization, you know.
Know, the biggest thing wefought was attrition.
You know, when you got 424spots statewide, um, you know
when we would run, uh, the basicSWAT school, um, you know we,
we could have as many as 65people going through it.
(43:54):
Um, yeah, so, um, that, youknow that was the.
The one thing that we had tofight down there was attrition.
Um, and uh, you know it was a.
Not only was I, you know,running the school, but you know
, one thing I did was, you knowI had a core of instructors that
(44:15):
would come out of the prisons.
You know a lot of them, teamcommanders themselves or, um,
senior guys that would come down, you know, as the instructors.
Sure, and you know my job wasI'll keep the make sure we got
the base lined up you guys comedown and everyone knew who they
were going to be, what they weregoing to be teaching.
(44:36):
We would set up to where aninstructor was going to be a
squad leader, because they werecoming down to be operators.
I don't want you to have to inno leadership or anything like
that.
You're coming down and learn tobe an operator, regardless of
what the mission is.
Um, smart.
So that was a big learningexperience for me.
Um, I you know cause.
As an instructor I was incharge of this block of
(44:57):
instruction, or running a squad,um.
But then when I got to theposition of Sergeant, and then
even more so when I became thelieutenant, whatever happened
down there the buck stopped withme.
But I had a good captain, I hada good chief and they were good
administrators and they werelike we don't care what happens,
just make sure we hear it fromyou before we get blindsided.
(45:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (45:19):
That's usually.
Speaker 2 (45:21):
I'm on the sidetrack from your last question, so if
you need to ask it, again.
Speaker 1 (45:24):
No, it's okay.
It's usually a hard and fastrule.
Make sure I know first.
Speaker 2 (45:28):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (45:28):
Absolutely no.
I was just moving into.
I know you're still teaching.
Speaker 2 (45:35):
Tell me what you're doing now, well, and what you're
doing now, that's what I meantto say.
Say we needed a certificationfor LSDD slash things, if you
will.
At the team level I would behaving like 40 guys 50 guys that
needed the certification.
Sandy Wallace, who was thetraining director at the time
(45:58):
for Defense Technology SafariLand.
He generally would cometraining director at the time
for defense technology safariland.
He generally would come out anddo the class for us, um, him
and another guy or anotherinstructor, um.
So we just became friends overthe years.
You know really good friends wewere.
As you can imagine, we were apretty big contract for them not
only buying 424, plus 120 uhfield agents, so that's over 500
(46:21):
.
You know, sets of plates andcarriers every year and helmets,
but on the on the, you know, inthe adult side of it, you know
that's 30, 30 000 staff proofvests every five years.
So now we're a big contract, um.
And so sandy would like to comeout, um and see us, um and do
the trainings.
And just over the years we gotto be friends.
And he, just before I retired,he said, hey, um, when you're
going to retire?
And I said to come out and seeus and do the trainings.
And just over the years we gotto be friends.
And he, just before I retired,he said hey, when are you going
(46:43):
to retire?
And I said I don't know, maybethree years, four years.
I haven't really thought aboutit, sandy.
And he said where are you goingto end up?
I said not in California,someplace where the cost of
living will, you know, as far asmy, we do have a fabulous
retirement system, so, but Ijust wanted to be someplace
where it was a little bit morequiet.
Um, and I want to get intoother reasons.
(47:04):
I'm sure you know why, but umsure.
So, uh, uh, we ended up in NorthCarolina and um, um hadn't been
here probably six months and Istarted driving Marietta my wife
crazy, you know cause.
I went to be in, you know, gonea lot, doing a lot of stuff,
running a lot of schools, andthat that at the team level.
(47:26):
The thing I miss the most isyou talking about a brotherhood
of people.
Sure, I mean that will be therefor you no matter what's going
on.
So I really miss that.
And she said well, you know,sandy told you, so you give him
a call, why don't you call him?
Yeah, well, the next day when Icame down, she poured me a cup
of coffee and she had a littlesticky note on my coffee cup
(47:47):
with Sandy's number and she saidyou will call Sandy.
I said hey, listen, sandy, Iknow we had the conversation
several years ago.
I'm retired now.
I ended up in North Carolina.
I was just wondering if youstill might be looking for some
instructors, and life has afunny way of working out.
(48:10):
He said hey, you know, I justhad two long East Coast
instructors that have taught mefor many, many years.
They're going to finally reallyretire.
I could really use someone.
You know, I know what kind ofinstructor you are, I could
really use you and I said okay,well, let me go to a class, and
(48:30):
you know you go to a class, butthere might be a different
format.
You teach for your people, right?
I just wanted to make sure Iwas on the same format with them
and so that's been.
It was five years ago, in march, and that I started teaching
for defense technology.
So yeah, and mostly um icpclasses.
So all the less lethal oc impactmunitions, chemical munitions
and flash games so I get to seea lot of good people, you know,
(48:54):
that are still, uh, willing to,uh, you know, put it on and and
go combat evil on a daily basis.
And absolutely I have a uniqueperspective, you know, because I
spent 18 years inside and thenI spent 10 years on the street,
you know, doing things with taskforce and warrants and whatnot.
You know and I always telleveryone this you know, um, I
(49:20):
really believe this in my heartof hearts that correctional
staff, um, are the mostunderappreciated law enforcement
in the united states.
They just are.
Yeah, nothing derogatory aboutthe people that think that.
I just think that, you know,until you've been inside a
prison, you know day in and dayout and see how they conduct
themselves, how they handlethemselves.
(49:41):
Be careful about saying that,because they're protecting us
from some of the most dangerouspeople that we can't let back
into society.
Speaker 1 (49:50):
I have a really good perspective about that.
I'll even expand that a littlemore because my horizon has been
broadened since I did thispodcast.
That's worldwide, you know, nomatter where you're at somebody
somewhere sitting in a brokenseg chair watching an inmate you
know Uh, yeah and uh, cause.
We've interviewed UK, australia, canada uh, 61 countries have
(50:14):
listened, listened to thispodcast, so that that blew me
away.
I didn't expect any of that,but I'm like you.
I love going out there and itwas almost a need for me to get
back into it, to go visit, and Iget to do it every week or
every couple of weeks.
I go out and I meet lawenforcement and corrections and
I get to talk to them and seehow they're doing and I'm never
(50:37):
disappointed.
I mean, of course, you know, inthe job we're in, where you're
going out and training people,you're already getting the best
of the best most of the time.
Speaker 2 (50:47):
Oh yeah, absolutely yeah, they've already vetted
them.
You're getting people that wantto be instructors.
You know they take pride inthat.
Um yeah.
So you know I like it becauseyou know I will get um
correctional staff, sometimesfrom state agencies, sometimes
from local jails, sometimesreally small jails, and then,
you know, I get a lot of SWATofficers in the class.
So you know, I've gained alittle bit of experience on both
(51:10):
sides of the house and you knowI'm able to pass that on things
that we did and learn, you know, inside and outside, and you
know the correctional staffreally appreciate that.
You know, having someone thathas that background, um, the
SWAT teams, that the SWATmembers that come in, they
really appreciate it.
You know, when they they say,wow, you guys, you guys were
like prison based but you'relike we're a SWAT team, I said,
(51:30):
oh yeah, we went outside.
You know we did warrants andyou know, um, so it's a unique
perspective.
Um, and I just I love beingaround the men and women who are
committed to the safety of ournation.
You know, I, just I, Iabsolutely love those people.
Speaker 1 (51:47):
I think that's great words to end with there.
Speaker 2 (51:50):
So what are you working on?
Next?
I'm going to down toMorrisville, north Carolina,
next week I'm going to do afour-day less lethal program for
them instruct program.
Okay, yeah, it's been a busyyear.
You know, defense Technology isa great company.
We train.
I think last year the trainingdirector said we trained over
(52:11):
25,000 law enforcement officers.
It is a big number on a varietyof classes.
It is a big number on a varietyof classes.
I do a CERT basic instructorcourse for corrections, along
with the ICP classes.
Those are the two main classesthat I do for them.
We do Red Dot, site Search,warrant, use of Force, vehicles,
just everything.
(52:33):
Really good company.
More importantly, they makereally good products that,
especially on uh, especially onthe correction side, really,
really help, you know, to getsome of these messes under
control.
And, um, yeah, it's.
I've met a lot of great people.
Good company, great people.
Speaker 1 (52:49):
I'm absolutely a fan of safari land and deaf tech,
deaf tech and CTS we we workwith a lot in the prisons.
Speaker 2 (53:00):
I got, I got really I got a really good friend, husky
rest rescue buddy of mine.
He was one of my headinstructors for many, many years
.
Saved, saved my ass a couple oftimes when I was in charge of
the schools.
He worked for cts on their side.
Speaker 1 (53:10):
So I know I know I've met phil and all the guys over
there great company, yeah, yeah,absolutely well, I'll get with
you after we get off here andfind out what kind of contact
information you want put inthere.
But but I appreciate you comingon the podcast today.
Great conversation and it's apleasure meeting you.
Speaker 2 (53:27):
Yeah, thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (53:28):
It's been great.
Yeah, maybe we'll do it againin the future.
Sure, Till next time.
This is Mike Cantrell with thePrison Officer Podcast.
Hope you have a great day.
Mike Cantrell with the PrisonOfficer Podcast.
I hope you have a great day.
I would like to take a minuteto thank one of our sponsors
that make the Prison OfficerPodcast possible.
Omni RTLS is a company thatI've been working with for the
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the show notes below.
Pepperball is the safer optionfirst.
Well, welcome back to thePrison Officer Podcast.
Today I'm really excited to havea new guest, adam Dennis.
He's a 28-year veteran of lawenforcement, served 22 years
with California's state hostagerescue teams.
His SWAT HRT assignmentsincluded assault leader,
(01:09):
tactical element leader and teamcommander.
He served for 10 years in theemergency operations unit as the
lieutenant responsible for thetraining and certification of
over 400 hostage rescue teams.
Those members were spreadacross 19 teams throughout the
state of California.
In addition, he spent 10 yearswith the DOJ Trident and
(01:29):
Narcotics Task Force and wasresponsible for certifying team
members as instructors intactical firearm certifications,
entry operations and high riskwarrants and hostage rescue
operations.
Holds certifications in OC,lsdds, chemical agents, less
lethal munitions.
He's very well-rounded in thetraining, I am sure, so I'm
(01:51):
excited to talk to him today.
Before we get there, I want togive a shout out to Liam McGee,
who he's one of our listenersand he reached out to me and
said I had this guy in class.
You got to get him on thepodcast.
I want to hear his stories.
So Liam's the one that kind ofbrought us together here.
So how are you doing today,adam?
I'm doing great.
Sounds like an exciting careerthere, yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
I was fortunate, you know, I was always around good
people.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
Absolutely.
Well, if you've listened to thepodcast, I always like to start
at the beginning, so kind ofwalk me through where you grew
up at and how that was with highschool and sports and that type
of stuff.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
Okay, I grew up in a little town up in the Sierra
Nevada mountains called Sonora,California, I'd say in the
mountains.
It was a foothill communityabout oh, we're probably
probably about 80 miles a littlebit south and a little bit west
of lake tahoe okay, a littlecommunity yeah, my mom and dad
uh a very strong christian, sowe went to a christian
(02:57):
elementary school and achristian high school, a small
high school.
So, uh, I have an identical twinbrother, um, and we, we
basically played uh soccer, uhbasketball and baseball because
they needed people right andwith an identical twin.
You probably played pranks onpeople only when we were younger
it only happened once and dadfound out, and that was the end
(03:19):
of that oh, that was the end ofthat, oh yeah okay, so where'd
you go after high school?
I went to a?
Uh christian college down in uhthe san fernando valley, just
outside of magic mountain, atown called new hall, california
.
Uh, the college is calledmasters college, so okay didn't,
didn't quite get the degree.
I went down more than anythingto play a little college
(03:40):
baseball, non-scholarshipcollege baseball, so okay I was
down there for, I think, two anda half years yeah, what was
your major besides baseball?
Criminology.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
Criminology was my major yeah so you know you were
going to go into criminology no,I, I, to be perfectly honest
with you.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
My dad um worked for, uh, the california department
of of Transportation for many,many, many years.
I retired as a supervisor after33 years, but once we're
getting done with college hejust kind of encouraged us to
look for a state job for theretirement.
(04:18):
That was his big thing, so wewould have a good retirement.
The Department ofTransportation was not really
hiring and I don't want to godown, they were hiring but
anyway.
But corrections was starting toboom and had a friend, an
acquaintance and plus our olderbrother had just got into
(04:41):
corrections.
He loved it.
He said it's a great job.
What year is this?
This would have been, uh, Iwent through the correctionals
academy in 1991 okay, well, youentered corrections.
Speaker 1 (04:55):
I came in in the first of 1992, so, okay, yeah,
yeah, we've been doing thisalmost as long.
So your brother went into andhe came back with good reports.
Speaker 2 (05:06):
My twin brother actually got hired about six
months before me.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
Okay.
Had you ever thought aboutcorrections before that?
Did you know what prison andjail?
Speaker 2 (05:15):
was, Didn't have any idea what it was, Didn't realize
the culture shock that I wasgoing to be exposed to, as you
well know.
Yeah, I didn't know any of that, Didn't know nothing about it.
I just at the time, thestarting payout there was really
good and to this day it'sreally good, and you know just
(05:40):
really didn't have a plan.
I knew that I was going to tryit.
I told myself, if I don't likeit, then maybe I'll I'll do
something else.
But I enjoyed it from the veryfirst day.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
So, going to a Christian school, do you think
you were a I don't know a littlebit at a disadvantage as far?
As you probably didn't have anygangs in your school.
You probably didn't have muchcriminality running around.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
And that's exactly right.
Okay, exactly right.
And we grew up in the town wegrew up in with 150 people.
Oh wow, no gangs or anything upthere either.
Speaker 1 (06:16):
Yeah, so you're learning on the run when you
walk through the door.
Yes, yes.
So tell me about that firsttime the door slams and tell me
about that first year.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
I have a really funny story about my first day.
I had an inmate walk up to me.
He was from the Rolling 90sCrips in Los Angeles, california
, and at the time when I startedthe inmates were still allowed
to have weight piles and whatnot.
So I'm sure you can attest tothis.
(06:46):
It's amazing how big they got.
You know lifting their weightsyeah people don't realize.
Yeah, he was probably 6'2" andas far as his upper body went,
there wasn't a bodybuilderaround that had anything on him.
I mean he was a giant man.
And he said he looked at myname tag and he said Dennis.
I said yes, sir.
(07:06):
He said new guy.
I said yes, sir.
He said what would you do if Idecide I'm going to put my hands
on you right now?
I said I'm going to hold on fordear life and when my partners
get here you're going to regretthat decision.
And he looked me in the eyesand he said you're going to get
along just fine.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
Yep Good answer.
Speaker 2 (07:23):
Just a little test first day Sure, yeah, see where
it stood.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
I remember kind of a similar thing and I know that
the other officers were backwatching us new group, you know
but they walked up and they gotin this one guy's face and you
know they were saying things tohim and he got all worked up and
he's emotional.
And of you know they weresaying things to him and he got
all worked up and he's emotionaland of course they just blew
him up, that one officer.
They just blew him up and uh,then he walks over to me.
(07:49):
He goes what's your name?
I said Cantrell, that's all Isaid.
You know the other guy's likeyou don't need to know my name,
and that was it.
You know he moved on to theshow off or you don't have to
show how bad you are, no.
Which is a thing that rookiesoften do.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
Yes, yes, yeah.
So you know, the first year wasjust, you know, as you well
know, a big learning curve.
The California DOC prisonsgenerally, a normal-sized prison
will have three facilities and1100 beds on those facilities.
So, um, I think, uh, peoplethat have never been inside the
(08:30):
prison system don't realize hownumber outnumbered you really
are.
Um, we were fortunate um mostnot all some of the older
prisons don't, but most of themodern prisons in california,
not too many places where youdon't have a tower or gun
coverage above you, um inside,outside.
So that's always an advantage.
But you know it was a biglearning curve.
(08:52):
Um, I met a lot of good peoplethat first year, Um, and then I
met um a couple of uh, uhcorrectional officers, and
that's how my um that thatreferred to there was a group
that referred to them as prisonguards.
They didn't want to be calledcorrectional officers and you
know we were sworn policeofficers in the state.
I just thought it was kind of ain in my heart it was kind of a
(09:14):
derogatory term.
I know some people like to becalled prison guards, but I just
, I just thought it kind of tookaway um from the profession
that we were involved in.
You know, sure and I had plentyof them at shift change would
just throw their keys down thetable and just say good luck,
not give me any advice.
What's going on in the pod?
What's going on in the unit?
Anything I need to know?
(09:34):
Here's your keys.
See you tomorrow, youngster, youknow and I told myself, if I
ever get to the point where I'ma senior person, I was going to
help out everybody that asked meanything as best as I could.
Yeah, and that's how I wasraised.
Speaker 1 (09:50):
Oh, absolutely yeah, and I don't know I think you
mentioned it the camaraderiethat I felt immediately.
Of course you do, becausethere's nothing like the first
time that you end up on thebottom of a pile or fighting an
inmate and 20 people show up tohelp you.
Most people have neverexperienced that before in their
life.
(10:10):
You know, I got in a fight inlike sixth grade, got beat up by
an eighth grader and all myfriends ran.
You know the other way and thenyou come inside and it's like
this you know it's camaraderiethey care for you, they care
about you.
Maybe not personally, maybe notthe person you are deep inside,
but they do care.
As another officer.
(10:32):
And that's something that takesa little bit to get used to.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
And I think that's a great point.
You know, we had, thank God, bythe time I got in we were
getting a lot more sophisticated.
We had personal alarm devicesthat would, you know, have a
blue light flashing and a sirenon, you know, on whatever
building we might be in, and itwas just good to know that when
you hit that you knew peoplewere coming.
(10:56):
Without a doubt there waspeople coming, and so if I was
like, say, a search and escortofficer or a yard officer, you
know, when a blue light went offin a building, no one was going
to keep me from getting therebecause I knew people needed
assistance.
You know, anyway, you do get acloseness in a brotherhood
because you're outnumbered right, I mean vastly outnumbered.
Speaker 1 (11:18):
Yeah, there's nobody else to help you, it's just the
people inside.
Yep, yeah, so at some point youdiscovered the teams?
I guess yes, so tell me aboutthat.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
Okay, a little background about the teams.
I'm sure a lot of yourlisteners and yourself remember
the 1980 New Mexico riot wherethey lost basically the entire
prison and it ended up a bunchof National Guards and State
Patrol and finally Russia prisonand it was a really bad
situation and a lot of peoplelost their lives.
(11:53):
So the governor at the time Iwant to say McCarthy, but don't
quote me on that asked thedirector of corrections if this
happens to one of my prisons,prisons, do we have people that
can handle it?
And he said no.
And he said, okay, you got sixmonths.
I want a plan, I want teamsstationed at every prison that
(12:15):
will have the capability whetherit's a hostage rescue, uh, a
giant incident where you knowthe regular staff on duty can't
handle.
I want people that areprofessionally trained to handle
that.
So that's kind of how itstarted and that was around 1983
.
So by the time I got, I triedout for the team in 1996, my
(12:38):
twin brother was already a teammember and he was the one that
kind of told me hey, you got todo this, you have the right
personality for it, um, and I atfirst, you know, I wasn't too
sure about it, um, but he kepton me and he said you're going
to love it.
He said you said you think it'sa brotherhood out there way to
get on this team, um, and so, uh, you know, I went to tryouts
(12:58):
and it's a long, hard day, um.
There there's no hazinginvolved, but they do test your
commitment.
There's a lot of commitmenttests during that day.
Are you going to quit?
Are you going to keep going, nomatter how tired you are?
Um, and a lot of other goodtests.
Can you?
Can you stay calm?
Can you keep a clear mind?
Can you make proper decisionsthat need to be made?
So I was fortunate, um, to passtryouts.
(13:21):
Um had a, took a shower, gotour class aides on then and then
we had to have an interviewwith the commander, assistant
commander and the seniorinstructors on the team and I
was fortunate, very fortunate,looking back, that they saw
something in me that theythought would make a good team
member and it really changed thewhole trajectory of my career
(13:43):
that day In California, eventhough we're prison-based before
the last 10 years, when I wentout to oversee the teams and
whatnot, we got called out ofthe prison all the time A lot
more now than back then, becausenow they're really helping
(14:04):
local law enforcement uh, almoston a daily basis.
One of the 19 teams is probablyout doing something, a warrant
or um, assisting with uh uh gangsweeps in in Fresno on a Friday
, saturday night.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
So well, you guys are your, your actual peace
officers when you graduate fromthe academy.
So that makes a big differencefor those agencies that have
that.
You know some places they don'thave that as a correctional
officer so they're not spendingmuch time outside.
Speaker 2 (14:33):
I found out it just differs from state to state.
You never know Like Ohio wasvery much so based along the
lines that we were out inCalifornia.
So it's just on astate-by-state basis and we were
fortunate enough to be peaceofficers and if we got a mutual
aid request, our color ofauthority immediately
transferred to the PD or thesheriff's department that asked
(14:55):
us to come with them.
Speaker 1 (14:56):
Yeah, you know, when rookies ask me, they'll say you
know what's a piece of advice?
Well, one of the pieces ofadvice I always give them is if
you can get on a team, I don'tcare what team, I don't care if
it's negotiations, I don't careif it's HRT, cert, whatever If
you can get on a team, becausenot only the camaraderie, but
now you have a group of peoplethat hold you accountable right,
(15:18):
exactly.
You have access to training thatyou won't have, so you're going
to be one of the more trainedofficers when stuff hits and
equipment.
Possibly even Tell me aboutsome of that.
I mean, do you look at that?
The same for rookies whenthey're coming in?
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (15:36):
You know we always looked at especially when I got
started getting up toward thecommand level, making decisions
or helping the commander make adecision before I was a
commander, you know we weren'tone for tryouts.
We weren't necessarily lookingfor the fastest, biggest,
strongest people.
You know we were looking forsomeone that was a consummate
professional, that had zeroarrogance and wanted to do the
(15:58):
job for all the right reasons,you know, and so we were looking
at people and what we wouldtell them is this hey, listen,
you get on a specialized team.
There could come a day in yourcareer it might or it might not,
but there could come a day inyour career where the only hope
that your fellow correctionalofficers ever have of coming
home is going to be you sure.
And I said that's, that's a bigcommitment that you're making.
(16:18):
That's a big commitment.
So, um, yeah, I would say, andI agree with you, whether it's a
cert team, a cell extractionteam, riot control team, a
negotiator, get on a team ifyou're so inclined and you want
to do something extra, dosomething beyond just going in
for eight hours and going home.
(16:38):
And it's not for everyone, butI would encourage people that if
that's your personality, thenseek those people out, ask them
questions, sure, see what theythink about being on those teams
, you know.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
And some of them are.
I know the Bureau of Prisonshas a crisis support team, which
is people who just walk aroundand, you know, talk after we
have an incident or something.
You got the negotiation teams,so I think you could find a spot
somewhere if you look hardenough.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
So I know, at one point you made a team leader, so
tell me about what it's likebeing a team leader.
What was your leadership styleat that point?
Speaker 2 (17:20):
in your career, my leadership style was to put good
people in charge of each squadthat I could trust.
And they knew we had an annualtraining plan.
Um, they, they could look at it.
They knew that when ourtraining was coming up, what
we're going to be training on,um, they would let me know.
Um, hey, we're going to beteaching this class.
Um, uh, rob Sharky is going toteach this part of it.
(17:41):
Phil Jensen is going to teachthis part of it.
Um, and I'd let them do theirjob, because I wouldn't have
picked them for that job if Ididn't trust them.
So, you know, and they alwaysreported back to me on how
training and I would go aroundand watch all the trainings, of
course, by then, and still, Iwould still run, jump and shoot
with them and all that goodstuff.
Because I made a commitmentthat, no matter where I went, if
(18:06):
I couldn't do thequalifications, the minimum
qualifications with guys I wasasking to do it, then I wasn't
going to, I was going to stepdown immediately.
So sure, and all the teams werethat way.
But one of the biggest parts iswhen you, when you become, you
know, and that position is theliaison to the chief deputy
(18:28):
warden in the ward.
And you know, and I told myguys, I don't care what they ask
us to do, we're going to do itand we're going to be
professional about it.
I don't care if they need us togo put sandbags to keep water
from coming into prison,whatever, whatever the mission
is, care if they need us to goput sandbags to keep water from
coming into prison, whatever,whatever the mission is.
(18:49):
Um, and I told them you know, Idon't want you to get in with
any of your line supervisors orany of that.
If, if any of that happens andyou come talk to me, um, I'm the
person that will go talk tothem and you know, and we'll
work it out.
So, and you know, so I was agood buffer for them and now you
know that was.
I felt part of myresponsibility was being a
buffer for them, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
When it came to administration.
Yeah, Take that off theirshoulders and let them do their
job.
Speaker 2 (19:16):
Let them do their job .
Speaker 1 (19:17):
Yep, yeah.
Another thing you mentioned, uh, just a second ago, was you
used to go around and watch thetraining and, uh, I was teaching
a class last week.
I teach for command presenceand I teach leading when it hits
the fan, which is for firstline supervisors decisions that
you make.
And one of the discussions wegot into was know your team's
(19:37):
capabilities, how often do yougo out and watch what they can
do?
Because, just like thatgovernor, you know when.
When he came back and he saiddo you have people in place that
can do that?
Well, thank God that thedirector gave him an honest
answer no, I don't.
There's a lot of administratorsout there that think I've got a
cert team so I can put them inwhatever instance there is, and
(20:02):
that's just not true.
It takes training, it takescommitment.
Talk to me a little bit aboutthat.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
Yeah, you know, we were part-time.
So you know, and I remember mycommander telling me, adam, the
easiest thing that you will everdo for this job is to stay in
elite physical condition.
He said it makes all the otherstuff that's harder a little bit
easier when you're doing it.
(20:29):
So, um, and you know and I tookthat to heart Um, and we would
have to do a lot of that on ourown time.
You know we weren't gettingpaid for it.
You know, going out for a runafter work or run before work,
um, hitting the weight room, youknow, on our own time in it, um
, it, I would tell people thatdo have spouses out there that
(20:50):
if you're going to decide to godown that road, you need to sit
down and have an honestconversation with them.
I do this, but there there'sgoing to be some times where I'm
going to have to be out goingto the gym, I'm going to have to
go for a run, and there's goingto be some times, at the most
inconvenient time it could everbe, where my pager I had pagers
(21:11):
back then or my cell phone lateron is going to go off and no
matter what I'm doing, I have torespond and that's the
conversation.
I really challenge youngcorrectional staff if they're
going to get on a specializedteam, just have that
conversation with the spouse.
It can save a lot ofmiscommunication and heartache
later on.
Speaker 1 (21:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:30):
Yeah, I had a great support.
Speaker 1 (21:32):
I had a great wife who put up with a lot when, I
was on the canine unit.
You know we'd get called outand escape.
She wouldn't know where I wasfor two, maybe three days.
I'm in the woods there's nophones.
We didn't have a phoneeverywhere back then, you know,
so she'd just sit home and worryor watch the news.
So no, that's absolutely right,yeah I haven't talked with them
(21:52):
, because they're going to beinvested in your time on the
team yes, they are wow and youneed their support to do it.
You need their support, yeah sotell me, as a leader, what was
one of the toughest decisionsthat you had to make during that
time.
Anything stand out.
Speaker 2 (22:13):
I didn't have to make too many tough decisions.
You know, one of the toughestthings was if we were running a
tryout and there was a lot ofgood people they gave everything
they had at the tryout, but itjust they, they, they weren't
going to be capable of doingwhat needed to be done.
Um, some of them were friendsof mine.
you know that I worked with onthe line with um and that was
(22:36):
always tough um yeah, and therewas a couple of times where um
one time in particular where atthe time this decision was made,
I was assistant and I had agreat commander and me and him
kind of had to make a decisionabout telling someone that they
couldn't be on the team no more,and that was tough.
But you know, me and him, wehad a long talk about it and he
(23:00):
said this is hard for me, adam,what do you think?
I said, well, I mean it is hard.
But I said you know, we justgot to look at the team as a
whole, not the individual.
You know, we've got to makethis decision for the team.
And and there was other teammembers, um, at the time um
didn't quite, uh, understandthat, but they came around later
(23:20):
on, um, when all the facts cameout about, it Right.
Other than that I the hardestdecisions I made was later on,
when I started running.
I had oversight to run in theschools.
I had to make some pretty toughdecisions then.
Speaker 1 (23:34):
Yeah, now, which job was that?
Is that the emergencyoperations?
Speaker 2 (23:39):
yeah.
So I started going down.
Um, we would run, uh, four tosix schools a year a basic SWAT,
which was nine days, and thenan advanced hostage rescue
school, which was another ninedays, generally about six months
apart.
But throughout the year wewould run maybe a sniper school.
(23:59):
We'd get input from the team.
Say what school do we need themost right now for attrition?
It might be a tactical firearmsinstructor school.
It might be an entry operationsinstructor school for
instructors.
So on a good year we'd run fourto six courses a year and I was
, very fortunate, A really goodteam member of mine.
(24:20):
He ended up getting a job tooversee the teams and he
immediately asked me to startcoming down as an instructor and
that was a big commitmentbecause he wanted me at all the
schools and, um, you knowthey're each nine days.
We get down there a couple daysearly make sure the base is all
set up for us.
So that's a lot of time awayfrom home, but it was something.
(24:41):
You know.
I'd already been fortunate atthe help and I was teaching at
the team.
You know had been through justabout all the schools at that
point but I really fell in lovewith teaching new operators.
So when he asked me if I'd bewilling to come down, I was.
I was pretty over the topexcited about coming down, but
(25:02):
it was for all the right reasons.
It wasn't about me, you know.
I wanted to.
I wanted to help.
We had a really good thinggoing.
I wanted to keep it going.
Speaker 1 (25:10):
Yeah, absolutely A little bit of legacy there.
Speaker 2 (25:13):
Yeah, a lot of good people came before so we felt
like we owed it to them.
All the people that fought allthe fights to keep the team they
.
At one time, before I got onthe teams, there was a big
movement, pretty hype, in thedepartment to get rid of the
teams.
They thought it was a waste ofmoney and resources.
And a lot of good people thatwere in charge of the program
(25:36):
fought a good fight and wereable to convince the decision
makers hey, you need us, you'regoing to need us.
Speaker 1 (25:43):
Yeah, I think, for those listening, I think every
agency goes through that at onetime or another.
You know you get really goodteams, you're doing your job,
things are not happening, sothey decide, oh, this is a place
we can spend money.
And then, as soon as they startbacking off on training,
backing off on teams, whenthings go to shit and now we
(26:03):
need them back, so yeah, I thinkevery agency goes through that.
I think so.
Um, let's talk a little bitabout california.
I had a ron on here in episode37.
He retired from san quentin,but you know, california is its
own.
Is it still the second largestsystem behind texas?
Speaker 2 (26:22):
as far as I know, it is I know they closed couple of
prisons but at one time when Iwas working we always covered
around 100,000 peopleincarcerated or something like
that if I remember right.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
Yeah, and I think that's about where you're at now
.
I always the thing I ran into afew years back when I was
working for the BOP.
The budget for California is$18.1 billion for CDCR, the
Bureau of Prisons.
The federal side of that, orside of corrections, is $8.1
(26:55):
billion.
So it really talks to theamount of money that's poured
into the CDCR out there.
Yes, but you guys have gangproblems.
It started out there.
I mean, that's the beginning ofprison.
Gangs was in the Californiaprisons.
So you deal with it violenceand stuff at a, I think, just at
(27:18):
a different level.
There's more of them out there.
Speaker 2 (27:21):
Tell me a little bit about what you saw there with uh
, I really got into gangs, um,and I was fortunate, uh, enough
to, um, I end up being asergeant, uh, running the gang
investigations unit at theprison that I was at at the time
.
Okay, um, so you know, and Ihad, up until that point, I'd
(27:43):
really educated myself.
Um, I was a yard officer,search and escort officer before
I made sergeant.
I would go around havingconversations with serenios and
asking about where they grew upWell, what neighborhood is that?
So I actually made a binder andhad all the little acronyms
(28:03):
that they would tattoo on themthat would signify what part of
LA or San Diego or San GabrielValley they were from.
So I really got reallyknowledgeable in that and it
really helped me on the yardbecause I could talk to them and
if they're, you know, say theirshirts are off on a summer day,
I could look at them and say,oh, hey, you're from La Puente
(28:24):
or you're from Bridgetown.
Look at him and say, oh, hey,you're from La Puente or you're
from Bridgetown, you know you're.
Hey, you're from White Fence,and it was a way to open up a
conversation.
So they're like, wow, he doesknow where we're from, you know.
So I was fortunate enough to endup being the gang investigator
(28:45):
for the prison.
Actually, I think I might havemisspoke.
I wasn't a sergeant, but youhad two sergeants in I guess you
would call it institutionalinvestigations unit.
Sure Investigated all thingsand they my one sergeant had
asked me to come in and be thehead gang investigator for the
prison.
You know, and I really enjoyedthat job, it wasn't a level.
(29:10):
I wasn't at a maximum securityprison at the time.
We had a level one, a level twoand then a level three yard and
most of the stuff went down onthe level two yard.
There was so many of them.
It was an open dorm setting,you know, 1100 people out on the
yard and that's where all thebig, the big incidents went down
(29:30):
was on that yard, um.
But uh, you know, california umis very unique, um, um, because
we have, you know, gangs thatbasically started back in the
you know 60s um, I guess aroundthe 60s um, and I heard your
podcast.
You know, uh, I think it wasron, was it ron?
(29:51):
From san clint, yeah, yeah, andhe basically gave a good
history of that why they started.
You know a lot of mostlystarted as protection groups and
it just kind of morphed afterthat.
Um, um.
You know, the thing that reallyhelped us with the prison gangs
was when they started openingthe SHU units up.
But since I've retired, they'vepretty much emptied the SHU
(30:13):
units out.
A lot of those guys are outwalking around now.
Speaker 1 (30:18):
Yeah, you've got to help a lot of people that don't
know what they're doing inpolitics, who've decided
restrictive housing is meanbecause they don't understand
what it does.
But you bring up a great pointand I want to back up to this
because you talked about how youwalked out on the yard and you
talked to these guys and when Igo inside these days and look
(30:41):
around and investigationsespecially, I see a lot of
people who are counting onreading letters and listening to
the phone.
You know they're, they'rewatching the cameras.
Cameras are the big thing.
I can see everything and I knoweverything.
If I watch the cameras and I'mgoing to argue that you don't
you know we.
We were taught to get out thereand talk to them, to watch them
(31:03):
, to be part of that yard.
That yard should not be leftalone.
You get the information bythose inmates know you and you
get to know them.
So talk to me more about that.
I love that you brought that up.
Speaker 2 (31:31):
Well, you know, I made a point before I got into
the gang unit, when I wasworking on the yards.
Was was hey, I want to, and Idon't like using the name shot
caller.
I, I, um, I like to think ofmore as, um, you know, the og
people, um, they do, they havethe ability to make calls, sure,
um, but I got to know who wasrunning everything right.
And so a perfect example is,say, if a Norteno disrespected
one of the correctional officersand it was a correctional
(31:51):
officer, I knew that wasn'tblowing it out of proportion or
anything like that Instead ofgoing and finding that young guy
and maybe getting in aconfrontation with him, I would
go talk to all.
I don't want to say his namebecause he's out now and he's
doing really good I've heard,but anyway, I'll just say his
name was Speedy, a long, longtime Norteno.
(32:12):
When he would come out dressedto the nines shoes, polished,
everything, pressed, and hereally carried himself very,
very respectful, and you know meand him had a good rapport, and
I remember him telling me hey,listen, you know, you've always
been so respectful to me and ourguys.
He said, if you ever have aproblem with any of my people
(32:35):
before he has to get locked upor something.
If you come talk to me, justgive me a chance, and if you
still got locking up, Iunderstand that.
So this particular youngster,you know, 21 years old, and he
really said a really derogatorything to a female correctional
officer and she was very upsetabout it.
(32:58):
She came to me right awaybecause she knows I've been on.
At the time I think I'd beenworking that yard as either
search and escort or officer forprobably 12 years, so I really
knew everyone on the yard, um.
So I went down and talked tothis guy and I said hey, um,
this is what happened.
I believe her um, uh, here'swhat I would like to see.
(33:18):
I would like to see him, um,apologize to her.
Sure, um, if he can't do that,then we'll have to go down a
different road.
But I know he's young, he justgot here, can you talk to him?
He said I'll talk to him.
Half hour later, um met us inthe sergeant's office and this
kid had been crying.
I don't know what he did to him, but um and he, I'm sorry,
(33:43):
that's not how the Nortainers onthis yard conduct ourselves.
I'm trying to get used toprison life, you know, and just
having a bad day, and you know,because you don't know what's
affecting them that day.
Maybe they got a bad call fromtheir mom, a bad call from their
girlfriend, you don't know.
Sure, and he I could tell hewas sincere, he was, he was
(34:03):
truly sincere about it.
So, you know, I think thecommunication aspect and showing
them respect, I used to tellthem all listen, you'll have
nothing but 100 respect for meuntil you don't give it to me,
and then we're going to go downan entirely different road.
Um, but I'm sure you saw this,um, the one thing that really
bothered me about, um, uh, somepeople in corrections, um, you
know, they thought the badge wassix foot tall and and they
(34:24):
could just go around being abully you know, now, you didn't
see a lot of that on the levelfour maximum security yards,
because you just wouldn't getaway with it yeah, they get
weededout pretty quick, yeah, on some
of the lower yards, and whatthey have to tell everybody.
Hey, listen, yeah, these guysare on a level two yard trying
to get a level one yard so theycan go be a firefighter.
But if you look at theirhistory, they've worked their
way down from maximum securityyards so they've been on those
(34:46):
heavy yards.
You know sure, um, and even ifan old sereno wasn't hasn't been
recognized by us as being partof the mexican mafia.
I guarantee you he had cousins,um, and I guarantee you he had
people from his neighborhoodthat were were part of his
little clique, and they all knoweach other they all know each
(35:06):
other.
You know.
So the respect thing and theway you carry yourself, and uh,
and I just found out the more Italked to him, interested in how
their lives were when theyweren't locked up, would ask him
how things are going on theyard.
How is it going?
Is there any issues?
You know, is anything botheringyou?
And I was sincere about thatbecause you know there would be
(35:29):
11 of us on yard and they'd beletting out 1100 inmates Right.
So you had to have thatcommunication skill and you know
they knew where I stood and.
I knew where they stood, but atthe same time, that does not
mean that you cannot showcompassion for people as long as
they know.
This is not weakness.
This is just me asking how youare.
You know, sure.
Speaker 1 (35:50):
Sure, yeah, you know, um, you'll see corrections,
people, and they talk about itand they'll sit through the
class, you know, when they'relearning leadership, and the
number one thing that you needas a leader is influence, and to
me, that's what some of what Icommunication Absolutely.
But you were going to the yardto find the person that had
influence with other inmates.
(36:11):
You were staying involved withthem so that you could have
influence, and you're absolutelyright.
Too many people think that youwait till the situation happens,
that you wait till thesituation happens.
Well, if you haven't developeda, you know, a discourse or
influence with that inmatebefore that moment, you're not
going to get it while they'reblowed up and, you know, hitting
(36:33):
on the door or whatever.
So I think we need to get awayfrom being so worried about some
of those words.
Influence is a good word.
If you're leading inmates, youhave to have influence with yeah
, they're not going to listen toyou.
Speaker 2 (36:45):
Yeah, then we're going to have chaos.
It's just real quick.
One of the you know you talkabout um, communication with the
, and knowing the influence andand them having enough respect
for you to come with a problemto you, knowing that you're not
going to blow the problem out ofproportion.
You're going to deal with itrespectfully, the right way.
Yeah, there's a guy I'll callhim cj.
He was from the bay area.
I'm a 415 gang member, um, bigguy, um, he had salt and pepper
(37:10):
braided hair, so he wasdefinitely an og but still in
tremendous shape, and me and himhad a great respect for each
other.
Um, um and we had, we had areally good rapport and um, uh,
I'll never forget.
Uh, the yard had only beenopened up after dinner for maybe
half hour and uh, he came downto the sergeant's office and he,
he told the sergeant hey, Ineed to talk to Dennis Um, and
(37:34):
the sergeant knew him, so heknew it was serious.
So I went outside and I saidwhat's up?
Well, him and Speedy, both um,wanted to talk to me and I said,
hey, what's up?
Guys, I lived in the same dorm,so the dorm for 36 beds, right
um, and they're secured by twosteel doors on each end, um
concrete walls.
And um, they said, hey, man,that guy.
They moved in in the dorm and Isaid I I didn't look at the the
(37:57):
movement after dinner.
Well, when he came in the dorm,he basically told he's a white
guy, um, skinhead from, uh, Iwant to say san bernardo,
california.
And he basically told I'm notgoing to be living with no ends
and no farmers and kind of aderogatory term to the
nortanians.
Well, sure, cj um and uh, twoof his guys had this guy in the
(38:20):
bathroom with a shank.
They were going to kill him.
And cj said stop everybody,stop what you're doing.
Let's get dennis involved.
Um, he'll get this guy out ofthis dorm, right, and they're,
and even the youngsters like,are you sure?
And he goes if I ask him to.
Yes, I'm going to tell himexactly what's going on, because
he knew.
And so here I told him okay, I'mgoing to move him, all right
(38:42):
nope I'll put him back down in adorm with Serrano's instead of
Norteno's, but here's whatyou're going to do for me.
He said what I'm going to dofor you.
I said as soon as I lock thefront door after he leaves, I
want that weapon to come out thewindow of the back door, out on
the tier.
Are we understood?
And he said absolutelyunderstood, adam.
Are we understood?
(39:04):
And he said absolutelyunderstood, adam.
I said okay, you were honestwith me.
We'll call it even at thatpoint.
Um, I can get a weapon off theyard and no one's gonna die.
It was all because they knew me.
They would.
They knew that I wasn't gonnabe like charging in there,
tearing up the dorm, you know,yeah if you had never talked to
them before that moment.
Speaker 1 (39:19):
You had no, you had no way to talk to them at that
moment.
Yeah, they wouldn't came at,they wouldn't came to talk to me
.
Speaker 2 (39:24):
You know, who knows what would happen that night.
Speaker 1 (39:25):
So yeah, yeah we need more of that these days kind of
unfortunate.
Speaker 2 (39:29):
Uh, I want to.
It's one of my fondest memoriesbecause I thought you know I I
did a lot of hard work, you know, building that respect and
rapport with those influencersum to have them come through
with a major issue, you know,and I was going to handle it the
right way.
And you know, and I did it theright way, you know, I let the
sergeant know what was going onand told him here was my plan.
What do you think he goes?
That's perfect, adam.
If you can make that happen,that would be great, yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:51):
I think a lot of people that don't know
corrections, not those that workin it, but the people on the
outside.
But most of those inmates,except for the violent ones,
we've usually got them at reallyhigh institutions.
Most of those inmates want todo their time quietly.
They want to do it.
Speaker 2 (40:08):
They want to go out.
Speaker 1 (40:09):
They want to get their rec, they want to get
their education, and when peoplelike that show up, you know, if
they did have to stab him orsomething like that, it would
shut down the whole institution,nobody's done anything for a
day.
Speaker 2 (40:22):
Oh yeah, yeah, I think that's one of the
misconceptions out there yeah,and you know that, um, for the
most part, the, the hispanicscontrol most of the drug
trafficking in californiaprisons.
Um, and they're the last onesthat want to see something go
down, especially on the lowerlevel yards, because if they get
locked down there's no onecoming in to visit and it just
(40:43):
stops the whole flow of moneyand everything.
Speaker 1 (40:45):
It's like a small business.
Speaker 2 (40:46):
You know, most people are like what?
Speaker 1 (40:48):
Yeah, that's why it's like a small business in the
pandemic.
Yes, so how many years did youstay with California?
28 years, 28 years?
Speaker 2 (41:01):
Wow yeah, my last 10, 18.
I was on the inside and then Iwas very fortunate enough you
know I've been going down as aninstructor and my good buddy
Doug, promoted to the SSU unit,which is another law enforcement
arm in corrections.
All special agents and hissergeant had promoted to
(41:22):
lieutenant Chris and Chris said,hey, I want you to interview
for the job.
I'd really like you to start.
And then that was another thingI really had to think about
because that was going to be ahuge commitment.
I had to move down toSacramento and that's where the
office was at, going to be gonea lot.
And you know I thought, Ithought long and hard about it,
but I made a decision.
You know, like anything longand hard about it, but I made a
(41:45):
decision.
You know, like anything else,once I made it I was going to be
committed to it and this is thetask force right the Department
of Justice task force.
So the emergency operations unit.
They oversee several things.
They oversee all the guns andbullets in the prison.
(42:06):
But me, when I promoted as asergeant with chris and then
when chris left, I promote tolieutenant tim came with me.
Our job was we over?
We had oversight over thetraining assessment and, uh,
certification okay, the membersthat were coming down to our
schools to be certified membersso along with that.
Um, you know, I got up there anda lot of the guys, like the ssu
(42:28):
guys, the fusion apprehensionpeople, um, almost all of them
have come out of corrections umdoing all the street stuff.
Um, they uh we started goingout and helping um, uh, one of
the doj funded narcotics taskforce teams, uh, okay, later,
later on they're called.
Right now they were a differentname now but I don't want to
put that name out becausethere's some stuff that went
(42:50):
down.
Anyway, that's fine.
So, whenever you know, like anytask force, they had like a
core of dudes.
That that's all they did, taskforce members.
But then when we would startworking a case, say, a hit was
coming up or a warrant here,whatever we got it, we'd have to
go down and take down amarijuana grow, sure, um, so
we'd get involved.
If they needed some of the teamguys to enhance our numbers, um
(43:11):
, it would go through me and mycaptain.
Yeah, well, how many do youneed?
What can we do to assist?
Whatever you know, whatever itis.
So, um, wore a lot of hats thelast 10 years, but it was fun,
it was a good time, yeah.
Speaker 1 (43:26):
Well, I think you're kind of like me.
You haven't done a real goodjob of retiring because from
what I hear, you're stillteaching.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (43:32):
You know I was, uh, um, when I was doing all the
team stuff, um, you know whenwe'd run our school.
You know we were such a bigorganization, you know.
Know, the biggest thing wefought was attrition.
You know, when you got 424spots statewide, um, you know
when we would run, uh, the basicSWAT school, um, you know we,
we could have as many as 65people going through it.
(43:54):
Um, yeah, so, um, that, youknow that was the.
The one thing that we had tofight down there was attrition.
Um, and uh, you know it was a.
Not only was I, you know,running the school, but you know
, one thing I did was, you knowI had a core of instructors that
(44:15):
would come out of the prisons.
You know a lot of them, teamcommanders themselves or, um,
senior guys that would come down, you know, as the instructors.
Sure, and you know my job wasI'll keep the make sure we got
the base lined up you guys comedown and everyone knew who they
were going to be, what they weregoing to be teaching.
(44:36):
We would set up to where aninstructor was going to be a
squad leader, because they werecoming down to be operators.
I don't want you to have to inno leadership or anything like
that.
You're coming down and learn tobe an operator, regardless of
what the mission is.
Um, smart.
So that was a big learningexperience for me.
Um, I you know cause.
As an instructor I was incharge of this block of
(44:57):
instruction, or running a squad,um.
But then when I got to theposition of Sergeant, and then
even more so when I became thelieutenant, whatever happened
down there the buck stopped withme.
But I had a good captain, I hada good chief and they were good
administrators and they werelike we don't care what happens,
just make sure we hear it fromyou before we get blindsided.
(45:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (45:19):
That's usually.
Speaker 2 (45:21):
I'm on the sidetrack from your last question, so if
you need to ask it, again.
Speaker 1 (45:24):
No, it's okay.
It's usually a hard and fastrule.
Make sure I know first.
Speaker 2 (45:28):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (45:28):
Absolutely no.
I was just moving into.
I know you're still teaching.
Speaker 2 (45:35):
Tell me what you're doing now, well, and what you're
doing now, that's what I meantto say.
Say we needed a certificationfor LSDD slash things, if you
will.
At the team level I would behaving like 40 guys 50 guys that
needed the certification.
Sandy Wallace, who was thetraining director at the time
(45:58):
for Defense Technology SafariLand.
He generally would cometraining director at the time
for defense technology safariland.
He generally would come out anddo the class for us, um, him
and another guy or anotherinstructor, um.
So we just became friends overthe years.
You know really good friends wewere.
As you can imagine, we were apretty big contract for them not
only buying 424, plus 120 uhfield agents, so that's over 500
(46:21):
.
You know, sets of plates andcarriers every year and helmets,
but on the on the, you know, inthe adult side of it, you know
that's 30, 30 000 staff proofvests every five years.
So now we're a big contract, um.
And so sandy would like to comeout, um and see us, um and do
the trainings.
And just over the years we gotto be friends.
And he, just before I retired,he said, hey, um, when you're
going to retire?
And I said to come out and seeus and do the trainings.
And just over the years we gotto be friends.
And he, just before I retired,he said hey, when are you going
(46:43):
to retire?
And I said I don't know, maybethree years, four years.
I haven't really thought aboutit, sandy.
And he said where are you goingto end up?
I said not in California,someplace where the cost of
living will, you know, as far asmy, we do have a fabulous
retirement system, so, but Ijust wanted to be someplace
where it was a little bit morequiet.
Um, and I want to get intoother reasons.
(47:04):
I'm sure you know why, but umsure.
So, uh, uh, we ended up in NorthCarolina and um, um hadn't been
here probably six months and Istarted driving Marietta my wife
crazy, you know cause.
I went to be in, you know, gonea lot, doing a lot of stuff,
running a lot of schools, andthat that at the team level.
(47:26):
The thing I miss the most isyou talking about a brotherhood
of people.
Sure, I mean that will be therefor you no matter what's going
on.
So I really miss that.
And she said well, you know,sandy told you, so you give him
a call, why don't you call him?
Yeah, well, the next day when Icame down, she poured me a cup
of coffee and she had a littlesticky note on my coffee cup
(47:47):
with Sandy's number and she saidyou will call Sandy.
I said hey, listen, sandy, Iknow we had the conversation
several years ago.
I'm retired now.
I ended up in North Carolina.
I was just wondering if youstill might be looking for some
instructors, and life has afunny way of working out.
(48:10):
He said hey, you know, I justhad two long East Coast
instructors that have taught mefor many, many years.
They're going to finally reallyretire.
I could really use someone.
You know, I know what kind ofinstructor you are, I could
really use you and I said okay,well, let me go to a class, and
(48:30):
you know you go to a class, butthere might be a different
format.
You teach for your people, right?
I just wanted to make sure Iwas on the same format with them
and so that's been.
It was five years ago, in march, and that I started teaching
for defense technology.
So yeah, and mostly um icpclasses.
So all the less lethal oc impactmunitions, chemical munitions
and flash games so I get to seea lot of good people, you know,
(48:54):
that are still, uh, willing to,uh, you know, put it on and and
go combat evil on a daily basis.
And absolutely I have a uniqueperspective, you know, because I
spent 18 years inside and thenI spent 10 years on the street,
you know, doing things with taskforce and warrants and whatnot.
You know and I always telleveryone this you know, um, I
(49:20):
really believe this in my heartof hearts that correctional
staff, um, are the mostunderappreciated law enforcement
in the united states.
They just are.
Yeah, nothing derogatory aboutthe people that think that.
I just think that, you know,until you've been inside a
prison, you know day in and dayout and see how they conduct
themselves, how they handlethemselves.
(49:41):
Be careful about saying that,because they're protecting us
from some of the most dangerouspeople that we can't let back
into society.
Speaker 1 (49:50):
I have a really good perspective about that.
I'll even expand that a littlemore because my horizon has been
broadened since I did thispodcast.
That's worldwide, you know, nomatter where you're at somebody
somewhere sitting in a brokenseg chair watching an inmate you
know Uh, yeah and uh, cause.
We've interviewed UK, australia, canada uh, 61 countries have
(50:14):
listened, listened to thispodcast, so that that blew me
away.
I didn't expect any of that,but I'm like you.
I love going out there and itwas almost a need for me to get
back into it, to go visit, and Iget to do it every week or
every couple of weeks.
I go out and I meet lawenforcement and corrections and
I get to talk to them and seehow they're doing and I'm never
(50:37):
disappointed.
I mean, of course, you know, inthe job we're in, where you're
going out and training people,you're already getting the best
of the best most of the time.
Speaker 2 (50:47):
Oh yeah, absolutely yeah, they've already vetted
them.
You're getting people that wantto be instructors.
You know they take pride inthat.
Um yeah.
So you know I like it becauseyou know I will get um
correctional staff, sometimesfrom state agencies, sometimes
from local jails, sometimesreally small jails, and then,
you know, I get a lot of SWATofficers in the class.
So you know, I've gained alittle bit of experience on both
(51:10):
sides of the house and you knowI'm able to pass that on things
that we did and learn, you know, inside and outside, and you
know the correctional staffreally appreciate that.
You know, having someone thathas that background, um, the
SWAT teams, that the SWATmembers that come in, they
really appreciate it.
You know, when they they say,wow, you guys, you guys were
like prison based but you'relike we're a SWAT team, I said,
(51:30):
oh yeah, we went outside.
You know we did warrants andyou know, um, so it's a unique
perspective.
Um, and I just I love beingaround the men and women who are
committed to the safety of ournation.
You know, I, just I, Iabsolutely love those people.
Speaker 1 (51:47):
I think that's great words to end with there.
Speaker 2 (51:50):
So what are you working on?
Next?
I'm going to down toMorrisville, north Carolina,
next week I'm going to do afour-day less lethal program for
them instruct program.
Okay, yeah, it's been a busyyear.
You know, defense Technology isa great company.
We train.
I think last year the trainingdirector said we trained over
(52:11):
25,000 law enforcement officers.
It is a big number on a varietyof classes.
It is a big number on a varietyof classes.
I do a CERT basic instructorcourse for corrections, along
with the ICP classes.
Those are the two main classesthat I do for them.
We do Red Dot, site Search,warrant, use of Force, vehicles,
just everything.
(52:33):
Really good company.
More importantly, they makereally good products that,
especially on uh, especially onthe correction side, really,
really help, you know, to getsome of these messes under
control.
And, um, yeah, it's.
I've met a lot of great people.
Good company, great people.
Speaker 1 (52:49):
I'm absolutely a fan of safari land and deaf tech,
deaf tech and CTS we we workwith a lot in the prisons.
Speaker 2 (53:00):
I got, I got really I got a really good friend, husky
rest rescue buddy of mine.
He was one of my headinstructors for many, many years
.
Saved, saved my ass a couple oftimes when I was in charge of
the schools.
He worked for cts on their side.
Speaker 1 (53:10):
So I know I know I've met phil and all the guys over
there great company, yeah, yeah,absolutely well, I'll get with
you after we get off here andfind out what kind of contact
information you want put inthere.
But but I appreciate you comingon the podcast today.
Great conversation and it's apleasure meeting you.
Speaker 2 (53:27):
Yeah, thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (53:28):
It's been great.
Yeah, maybe we'll do it againin the future.
Sure, Till next time.
This is Mike Cantrell with thePrison Officer Podcast.
Hope you have a great day.
Mike Cantrell with the PrisonOfficer Podcast.
I hope you have a great day.
I would like to take a minuteto thank one of our sponsors
that make the Prison OfficerPodcast possible.
Omni RTLS is a company thatI've been working with for the
last year.
I am proud to be part of thisteam of correctional
(53:50):
professionals who have developedthe best real-time locating
system on the market today.
With Omni's real-time locationtechnology, you automatically
know the accurate locations andinteractions of all inmates,
staff and assets anywhere inyour correctional facility, and
you have this information inreal time.
Omni is cutting-edge softwarefor today's jails and prisons.
(54:12):
It is the only way to monitorevery square inch of your
facility while still being PREAcompliant.
Go to wwwomnirtlscom for moreinformation and to make your
facility safer today.
That's wwwomnirtlscom.
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