October 21, 2024 • 30 mins
What if the key to managing conflicts in corrections is as simple as mastering the art of listening? Join us as we examine the evolution of de-escalation techniques, starting from the era of "verbal judo" to contemporary methods centered on active listening and emotional regulation. You'll learn why truly hearing and understanding the other person can be transformative, not just in corrections but also in law enforcement, nursing, and dispatch roles. We underscore the critical role of listening in managing tensions and preventing conflicts.
Have you ever wondered if less-lethal and non-lethal tools like Pepperball can be effective forms of de-escalation? Sometimes the mere presence of a non-lethal system or the professional appearance of a respected correctional officer is all that is needed.
This episode weighs the effectiveness of traditional force versus modern de-escalation tactics, emphasizing the importance of attempting de-escalation first to mitigate injuries and liabilities. Discover how strategic, less confrontational approaches can be game-changers in handling disruptive inmates.
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Keys to Your New Career: Information and Guidance to Get Hired and Be Successful as a Correctional or Detention Officer by Michael Cantrell
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
More than 28 years of corrections.
I have used or supervisedPepperball hundreds of times Now
as a master instructor forPepperball, I teach others about
the versatility andeffectiveness of this Pepperball
system.
From cell extractions todisturbances on the rec yard,
pepperball is the first optionin my correctional toolbox.
One of the most dangerous timesfor officers is during cell
(00:22):
extractions.
Times for officers is duringcell extractions.
Pepperball allows officers torespond with the lowest level of
force and still be effectiveand ready if the situation
escalates.
The responding officer controlswhere the projectiles are aimed
, how many projectiles arelaunched and how rapidly they're
deployed.
This allows the response to betailored to the moment.
To learn more about Pepperball,go to wwwpepperballcom or click
(00:47):
the link below in the show'sinformation guide.
Pepperball is the safer optionfirst.
Hello and welcome back to thePrison Officer Podcast.
Can we talk about de-escalation?
And I say that to be funnybecause you know a lot of times
that's what people think.
De-escalation is about that.
(01:08):
It's about talking, andde-escalation has a little bit
of talking but most of it islistening.
And that's one of the thingswe're going to cover today is
de-escalation and, hopefully,some listening skills, hopefully
some listening skills, some ofthe things that you can take
with you next time you'redealing with one of those
incidents where you've got aninmate on the door or possibly
(01:29):
an immediate use of force that'simminent, out on the floor
where you can talk that persondown.
So that's a little bit aboutwhat we'll talk today.
But you know, it's changed somuch.
Now Almost every lawenforcement agency has some form
of de-escalation class.
So I'm sure you guys have beenthrough it, I'm sure you've sat
(01:50):
through a class on de-escalation, but we've always had it.
It just wasn't always used aswell.
I think when I started back in1992 for the state of Missouri,
we went through a class calledverbal judo, which verbal judo
always kind of struck me as amisnomer, right, because it
(02:11):
implies conflict, it impliesfighting, it implies a back and
forth between two individuals.
And one thing you'll find as yougo into corrections and as you
stay there longer, as youdeescalate more people truly,
most of what we do is listening.
(02:31):
I think deescalation is um moreso a listening skill than
anything else.
But the funny thing is when youtalk to people, um well, I
guess first, do you thinkeverybody's a good listener?
Is everybody really good atbeing able to listen to others?
You know, studies have foundout that 95% of people consider
(02:58):
themselves good listeners.
But when they've done thesestudies and they've tested it,
people are really only retaining25 to 50% of what they heard.
And if you're listening to tryto find you know what the
problem is or how we can fixthis problem, how we can correct
it, how we can deescalate, howwe can lower the emotions of the
(03:22):
moment, de-escalate, how we canlower the emotions of the
moment.
If you're only catching half orless of the conversation, you
don't have a whole lot to workwith, do you?
So you know, I guess.
First let's start off with whatis de-escalation?
Well, de-escalation comes inmany forms.
Like I said, when I started itwas called verbal judo.
(03:45):
In later years they brought itabout and called it
confrontation avoidance, whichwas also kind of a misnomer
because we weren't dealing withwhat was going on, we were
actually avoiding it.
We were avoiding the use offorce is, I think, where the
name originally came from.
But that's not what it says.
It says confrontation avoidance.
(04:07):
Well, confrontation is going tohappen, whether it's verbal or
whether it's physical, andavoiding it is not necessarily
the best course of action If wejust avoid it, is it going to
get corrected?
Is it just going to come backlater on?
Probably so.
So that is what we did for manyyears was confrontation
(04:30):
avoidance.
Now it's moved and we call itde-escalation.
It's the law enforcementofficers on the street are also
getting trained in de-escalation, along with a lot of other
professions that you probablyhadn't thought of before.
There's nurses going throughde-escalation training,
dispatchers going throughde-escalation training, so it's
(04:51):
not just something thatcorrections is doing.
Another form of de-escalation,of course, is non-lethal or less
lethal de-escalation, and Ifound it really interesting.
As you know, pepperball is oneof my sponsors on the show here
and I also work for Pepperballas a master instructor.
So this last year we went tothe mock riot out in Moundsville
(05:14):
and one of the things I didthere was walk around with a
camera crew and do someinterviews.
They wanted some marketing, soI would go around and ask
questions of the officers thatwere there, the team members
that were there, and I wanted tofind out how they, you know,
worked with Pepper Ball, how itwas working for them.
So I was walking up,introducing myself and just
(05:36):
asking some basic questions, andone of the questions that I
asked was how's this working foryou?
Have you utilized Pepper Balland how's it working for you?
And I found it extremelyinteresting because about 75% of
the time, um, when I talked tothose officers, they told me,
yeah, we love Pepperball, but wedon't get to use it.
(05:57):
And I said what do you mean?
You don't get to use it?
They said, well, as soon as itcomes out, you know, the inmate
goes ahead and cuffs up, givesup, goes ahead and puts their
wrist through the tray slot sothat they can.
You know, restraints can beapplied and so we never use it.
So my question to you is isthat a win?
(06:18):
A lot of staff kind of talkedlike they didn't feel, like that
was a win.
They didn't get to use thesystem.
And my question to you is whatdo you feel?
Is that a win?
We show up with the launcher,the inmate submits to restraints
, goes ahead and cuffs up, we'reable to move on with the day.
(06:40):
Is that a win?
Absolutely that's a win.
That wasn't always the thoughtprocess when I started in this
business.
Confrontation avoidance waswent more like this we had an
inmate who was disruptive,banging on the door, flooding,
breaking light fixtures,whatever.
So we have this inmate that'sdisruptive.
(07:01):
We put a team together and thatwas a rule back then.
Once the team got dressed out,we were going through the door.
We were going to do a use offorce, a physical use of force,
with four to five staff membersto get control of the inmate.
But before that, we, with ourverbal judo and with our
confrontation avoidance, we saidwe're going to de-escalate,
(07:24):
we're going to attemptdeescalation.
Well, I've watched hundreds ofthose use of forces where
someone walks up to the door andthey say inmate, so-and-so, are
you going to cuff up?
No, go to hell.
Co.
Okay, he looks at the cameraand he says inmate refuses to
submit to restraints.
(07:45):
Team up, and now the team'sgoing through the door.
Did we actually try todeescalate that?
Did we look at cause?
Did we have any talking orlistening going on?
Did we take the time to get tothe root of the problem?
We didn't.
We'd already made up our mindwhere this was going because
(08:06):
we'd already invested the time.
We'd already invested ingetting staff off their posts,
dressed out, put in gear, andnow we're going to go through
the door and we're going to dothe use of force.
And when I was young, that wasexciting.
Okay, I'm the lead man on theuse of force team.
We're going through the door.
That was exciting.
But then when I got promoted, Islowed down a little bit on
(08:31):
that because the people I wassending through the door weren't
myself.
I wasn't responsible for my owninjuries and accidents.
I was responsible now for thepeople I sent through the door
and if they got injured, if theyhit their knee on the toilet,
if they fell down and bustedtheir shoulder now I'm
(08:54):
responsible for this.
I sent them through the doorand my brain started asking was
this necessary?
Was this necessary, or is thissomething that I could have
slowed down or improved bytaking the time to try to
de-escalate?
And a lot of times I was theuse of force lieutenant, so I
(09:16):
had that moment while the teamwas getting ready to try to
de-escalate to talk to theinmate.
I won't always say I was greatat it, but I did try to get
better at it.
Is it always incumbent upon theleader of the team to do the
de-escalation?
I say no.
I say anyone in an officialposition can do that
(09:38):
de-escalation.
If you've got a counselor, ifyou've got a psychiatrist doctor
, nurse, um, if you've got acounselor, if you've got a
psychiatrist, doctor, nurse, um,food service worker that you
know is normally his supervisor.
Uh, can we have them attempt todeescalate if that inmate
listens to them more than theylisten to other staff because
they have this?
Uh, you know this workingrelationship.
(10:01):
Absolutely, we can have thosepeople involved.
Deescalation is especially thesedays.
It always probably should havebeen, but especially these days
de-escalation is where we shouldhead for every time.
(10:22):
Because once you pop that door,once you open that door and you
send a team in or you sendthree officers in or whatever
your agency does, there's onlytwo things that you're going to
get out of this.
You're going to get the chanceat liability and the chance at
injury.
We get nothing else from that.
We regain control.
But we're going to regaincontrol.
No matter what right it's ourprison.
(10:43):
We will regain control.
At some point the inmate willbecome compliant, no matter how
far we have to take this.
But what if we could deescalateit?
What if nobody has to go inthere and get hurt, and that
includes the inmate?
The inmate gets hurt.
What's that cost the taxpayers?
It's absolutely going to costthem to have this guy fixed up
(11:06):
because he got smashed on thefloor ran into the bed.
Whatever happens, I can tellyou myself I've got a shoulder
that I go to the doctor and Iget shots in these days because
I landed at the bottom of one ofthose dog piles.
Everybody landed on thatshoulder.
I've got a knee that gives mefits that I take a lot of a
leave for because it's beenbanged into about 400 stainless
(11:28):
steel toilets.
That's part of doing that.
You get the chance at injuryevery time you go through that
door and you're going to beengaging someone who's violent
or out of control or wants tohurt you or wants to hurt
themselves.
So is de-escalation important?
Absolutely, it's the mostimportant thing we do, and
(11:51):
that's not just when somebody'son the door.
We can de-escalate throughoutour day, in the way we carry
ourselves as, the way we carryourselves as a professional, the
way we speak to each other andthe way we speak to the inmates,
the way we treat the inmates.
All these things have to dowith de-escalation.
(12:13):
Have to do with de-escalationBecause once inmates and you can
look back through history ofprisons once inmates are, either
and I'll add this in here oncethey're treated poorly, or if
they have the perception ofbeing treated poorly or if they
have the perception of nothaving their grievances heard.
(12:34):
Those right.
There are the three things thathave started most riots, most
disturbances throughout history.
De-escalation gets rid of a lotof that.
It makes people feel likethey're being heard.
Listening during these timesallows us to understand what the
(12:54):
perceptions are.
Whether they're real or notRight, it's still the perception
.
It's like arguing with a mentalhealth inmate and he has.
He lives in some fantasy worldwhere he thinks he sees, uh, you
know, things that aren'thappening.
You can tell him that that'snot happening, but his
perception is that it ishappening, and you can't him
that that's not happening, buthis perception is that it is
(13:16):
happening and you can't changethat.
So we need to understand theperception.
Once we understand theperception, we can find out
what's causing that, why theyfeel that way, and then address
it and hopefully change it Right.
So what's some of the things wecan do to improve our listening?
(13:40):
You're on that door, theinmates blowed up, a use of
force is possibly imminent.
So what's some of the thingsthat we can do when we approach
that and we're trying tode-escalate?
Well, the first we talked aboutis listening, and I mean really
listening, not standing thereletting it go in one ear and out
(14:03):
the other, but listening,active listening.
Sometimes you may want torepeat some of what they told
you to make to make sure toensure that they feel like
they're being heard right.
Well, the piece of chicken Igot on my tray isn't as big as
everybody else's.
(14:23):
So what you're saying is youfeel like you got shorted on the
tray.
You didn't get as much food onyour tray as other people did.
Is that what I'm hearing?
You know that's activelistening.
One of the other things we cando is be curious.
If you have deescalated verymany inmates, which I have, it
(14:47):
helps to be curious.
A lot of times they don't evenknow why they're upset.
They have feelings which haveturned into possibly rage, anger
, but they don't always knowwhat the root cause of it was.
Just like the chicken example,I got this little bitty piece of
(15:08):
chicken on my tray.
Well, that officer gave it tome.
Now I'm mad at that officer.
That officer didn't pick outwhat size piece of chicken was
going to be on that tray.
For you, that was a luck of thedraw, right.
But now all of your anger andyou're stressed, you're
(15:29):
frustrated, you're locked in thecell.
All of that anger is focused atone person and you're mad at
him, but he's not necessarilythe problem.
The problem occurred a coupleof hours ago in food service
when somebody wasn't payingattention to portion size.
They put it, they put the foodon the trays, the trays get, you
know, food gets cooked, thetrays get loaded and they get
(15:52):
sent over to the unit and nowone inmate's going to get a
smaller piece of chicken.
Well, that didn't have anythingto do with the officer that was
passing it.
It has to do with somethingthat occurred outside of there a
couple hours ago maybe.
So being curious and askingquestions might get you from I
(16:12):
hate that officer to.
This really stems from I'mfrustrated because I got a
smaller piece of chicken thaneverybody else did.
Ask questions, be curious andask questions.
That's one of the things we cando.
Another thing that I find ispeople are scared of silence,
(16:37):
and that's not just duringde-escalation but generally, and
investigators use this ininterrogation techniques.
You know they'll ask a questionand if the suspect doesn't
answer right away, they're notgoing to jump in with another
question, they'll wait.
They'll sit there and they'llwait, because what happens
(16:59):
during that time that suspect'sgetting uncomfortable right and
sooner or later he's going tosay something.
Well, silence can work in manyways.
If I've got a inmate who I'mtrying to deescalate, who I'm
trying to bring down, I'm askingthose questions.
I'm curious and I'm trying toget them to open up and say
(17:21):
something.
There's nothing wrong with alittle bit of silence.
Ask a question.
So how are you feeling thismorning when you woke up?
And then you can wait a coupleof minutes.
You don't have to follow upwith a question immediately.
Give them time to think.
(17:41):
They're not thinking rationallyright now because emotions are
involved.
They're blowed up, they've gotanger, fear, whatever else.
So give them a minute to workthrough that when you ask those
questions and see if you don'tget better answers that get you
(18:01):
closer to the true problem.
One of the other challengesthat I see when people are
de-escalating or even myself.
I was not immune to this,absolutely I wasn't.
But inmates are mastermanipulators.
They have practiced thisprobably before they ever came
to prison.
They grew up in a, in an areaor a gang or a family who
(18:24):
manipulated each other.
That's what caused a lot oftheir problems If they came from
a family or a situation thathad alcohol and drugs in it.
Absolutely, they were involvedwith manipulation of each other.
So they become very skilled inthis, and when you come to the
door, the first thing they'regoing to try to do is push a
button, get you to take the bait.
(18:46):
They want you to get emotionalwith them.
What happens when you getemotional?
Well, once again, just likethem, you don't think rationally
.
Your brain's having feelingsinstead of thoughts, and that's
where they want you, because ifthey can get you upset, they can
(19:08):
control that conversation,can't they?
One of the things I like to readis Marcus Aurelius' Daily
Meditations.
There's a lot of stoicphilosophy in there, and I take
comfort from that and try tolearn from it for myself.
Keep myself calm, right.
(19:29):
But one of the things he saysin there is get inside him, look
at what sort of person he is,and you'll find that you don't
need to strain to impress him.
So what does that mean?
That means when we're on thatdoor and we feel like we've got
to be big and tough.
We feel like we've got to showthem right.
(19:52):
They've gotten in our feelings,they've got our emotions amped
up and we feel like we've got toshow them.
We're the bigger person, right?
Pay attention to who you'rearguing with.
You're not arguing with aperson who's and I'll just say
it this way Some people may notagree.
I'm not arguing with a personwhose opinion of me I value,
(20:16):
right?
So for them to call me a namedoesn't mean too much to me if I
look at who it's coming from.
Now, that's not to say that Idon't treat inmates with the
respect that they have.
Coming because of the job Ihave, because my job is to care
(20:37):
for them and look over them, Iwill give them the respect of a
human being.
I don't respect their opinionand I certainly don't respect
their opinion of me, theiropinion of their self.
If it was better, they probablywouldn't be in the position
they're in.
So their opinion of otherpeople is suspect at best, right
(21:03):
.
So when you're feeling thatcoming up and you're feeling
that emotion and they're pushingyour buttons and you feel like
you're taking the bait, stepback a little bit.
Is this a person?
Is this a person whose opinionmatters to me about me?
Of course not.
(21:23):
So why am I getting upset?
Why am I letting them doexactly what they want to do?
Once they get you emotional.
They control you.
They control the situation andtake a look at your immediate
and your calculated use offorces.
You know this is kind of thesame idea there.
(21:45):
The reason why we don't want todo immediate use of force is
because the inmate controls thetiming.
The inmate controls a lot ofthe emotions.
The inmate controls firststrike Surprise.
A lot of these things can becontrolled by the inmate in an
(22:08):
immediate use of force.
So if at all possible, wealways try to back off and have
a calculated use of force,because that gives us the
advantage.
We will determine the resourcesbrought forward.
We will have plenty of staff.
We will set the time that thishappens.
(22:28):
Be careful when they're tryingto bait you, when they're trying
to anger you, when they'retrying to get the emotions right
.
This is not the time for this.
This is a time for you to askquestions.
This is a time for you tolisten, show empathy.
(22:49):
Wow Boy, a bunch of people justwent oh my gosh, empathy, I
don't have to care for them.
Empathy does not have anythingto do with caring for a person's
feelings.
Empathy is about identifying aperson's feelings.
So don't get caught up in thewords.
(23:11):
You can't have empathy as acorrectional officer.
You should have empathy as acorrectional officer, you know.
Have empathy as a correctionalofficer, you know.
Empathy is a matter of socialawareness, is being able to look
around and see what someoneelse is feeling and understand
(23:32):
how that influences andmotivates their actions.
Does that make sense?
So empathy is not a bad thingand we want to have empathy
towards them.
We can't truly do goodlistening without empathy on our
part.
It's like when you walk on theyard and you have situational
(23:55):
awareness, your backs to thewall, you know what people are
carrying in their hands.
You notice if everything goesquiet in the chow hall.
That's situational awareness.
Social awareness is walkinginto an area and noticing the
emotions that people have andbeing ready to understand those
(24:15):
emotions and how they motivatethose person's actions.
So that's all empathy is.
Don't get scared that empathymeans you have to care for this
inmate, not any more than youwould in any other professional
situation, but you don't have tocare for them personally to be
empathetic.
(24:35):
And finally, one of the lastthings you can do is a little
bit of self reflection, a littlebit of self-awareness and
understand how you come across.
It's tough for us.
We get used to barking orders.
Sometimes Does everything thatyou do come across as barking
(24:56):
and order.
How do you speak to otherpeople?
What's your tone sound like?
Are you sarcastic?
Are you judgmental?
These are things that matter.
People pick up on that.
The same way I was speakingabout you having social
awareness, other people havesocial awareness about you and
(25:20):
your actions.
Your tone, the feelings thatyou have when this is going on
go to the other person and inand those they interact with the
conversation that you're having, this de-escalation
conversation.
If you're not genuine and ifthey feel like you're being
sarcastic, if they don't feellike you're honest, then that's
(25:44):
going to affect the way thisgoes.
So I think that's about it fortoday.
I hope you understand thatde-escalation is one of the most
important things that we can do.
Use of force should always be alast resort and that's not
because I'm an inmate lover.
(26:07):
That's not because of all thesepast things that I heard.
You know they got it coming.
They deserve it, thispunishment mentality.
They got it coming.
They deserve it, thispunishment mentality.
The reason is is, if for noother reason, they're human and
they deserve the respect ofbeing a human being.
(26:28):
And remember the only thing youget for going through the door
on a use of force is a chance ofliability and a chance of
injury, and you don't needeither one of those.
So next time you're sittingthrough a de-escalation class,
hopefully some of these thingswill help you.
Hopefully there are things youcan think about, but hopefully
(26:50):
you'll get something out of thatand understand that
de-escalation is something wecan talk about.
It is something we can embrace.
When we de-escalation issomething we can talk about.
It is something we can embracewhen we de-escalate situations,
it's always a win and it servesus and our agency well.
So let's go have a good day outthere.
When you're going to worktomorrow, walk by somebody, ask
(27:13):
them how their day is going andthen take a minute and listen.
It's the most important thingwe can do for each other inside
is to make someone feel likethey're heard, and it helps you
practice listening skills.
That's it for today.
I hope you enjoyed this episode.
Don't forget to check us out.
These videos are on YouTube.
(27:34):
If you're listening to it audio, so you can go there.
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You can go to any one of those.
Whichever one you're listeningfrom, please like and share.
That's how we grow this podcast.
That's how we keep the lightson.
So have a great day.
I would like to take a minuteto thank one of our sponsors
(27:57):
that make the Prison OfficerPodcast possible.
Omni RTLS is a company that I'vebeen working with for the last
year.
I am proud to be part of thisteam of correctional
professionals who have developedthe best real-time locating
system on the market today.
With Omni's real-time locationtechnology, you automatically
know the accurate locations andinteractions of all inmates,
(28:18):
staff and assets anywhere inyour correctional facility, and
you have this information inreal time.
Omni is cutting-edge softwarefor today's jails and prisons.
It is the only way to monitorevery square inch of your
facility while still being PREAcompliant.
Go to wwwomniirtlscom for moreinformation and to make your
(28:39):
facility safer today.
That's wwwomnirtlscom.
More than 28 years of corrections.
I have used or supervisedPepperball hundreds of times Now
as a master instructor forPepperball, I teach others about
the versatility andeffectiveness of this Pepperball
system.
From cell extractions todisturbances on the rec yard,
pepperball is the first optionin my correctional toolbox.
One of the most dangerous timesfor officers is during cell
(00:22):
extractions.
Times for officers is duringcell extractions.
Pepperball allows officers torespond with the lowest level of
force and still be effectiveand ready if the situation
escalates.
The responding officer controlswhere the projectiles are aimed
, how many projectiles arelaunched and how rapidly they're
deployed.
This allows the response to betailored to the moment.
To learn more about Pepperball,go to wwwpepperballcom or click
(00:47):
the link below in the show'sinformation guide.
Pepperball is the safer optionfirst.
Hello and welcome back to thePrison Officer Podcast.
Can we talk about de-escalation?
And I say that to be funnybecause you know a lot of times
that's what people think.
De-escalation is about that.
(01:08):
It's about talking, andde-escalation has a little bit
of talking but most of it islistening.
And that's one of the thingswe're going to cover today is
de-escalation and, hopefully,some listening skills, hopefully
some listening skills, some ofthe things that you can take
with you next time you'redealing with one of those
incidents where you've got aninmate on the door or possibly
(01:29):
an immediate use of force that'simminent, out on the floor
where you can talk that persondown.
So that's a little bit aboutwhat we'll talk today.
But you know, it's changed somuch.
Now Almost every lawenforcement agency has some form
of de-escalation class.
So I'm sure you guys have beenthrough it, I'm sure you've sat
(01:50):
through a class on de-escalation, but we've always had it.
It just wasn't always used aswell.
I think when I started back in1992 for the state of Missouri,
we went through a class calledverbal judo, which verbal judo
always kind of struck me as amisnomer, right, because it
(02:11):
implies conflict, it impliesfighting, it implies a back and
forth between two individuals.
And one thing you'll find as yougo into corrections and as you
stay there longer, as youdeescalate more people truly,
most of what we do is listening.
(02:31):
I think deescalation is um moreso a listening skill than
anything else.
But the funny thing is when youtalk to people, um well, I
guess first, do you thinkeverybody's a good listener?
Is everybody really good atbeing able to listen to others?
You know, studies have foundout that 95% of people consider
(02:58):
themselves good listeners.
But when they've done thesestudies and they've tested it,
people are really only retaining25 to 50% of what they heard.
And if you're listening to tryto find you know what the
problem is or how we can fixthis problem, how we can correct
it, how we can deescalate, howwe can lower the emotions of the
(03:22):
moment, de-escalate, how we canlower the emotions of the
moment.
If you're only catching half orless of the conversation, you
don't have a whole lot to workwith, do you?
So you know, I guess.
First let's start off with whatis de-escalation?
Well, de-escalation comes inmany forms.
Like I said, when I started itwas called verbal judo.
(03:45):
In later years they brought itabout and called it
confrontation avoidance, whichwas also kind of a misnomer
because we weren't dealing withwhat was going on, we were
actually avoiding it.
We were avoiding the use offorce is, I think, where the
name originally came from.
But that's not what it says.
It says confrontation avoidance.
(04:07):
Well, confrontation is going tohappen, whether it's verbal or
whether it's physical, andavoiding it is not necessarily
the best course of action If wejust avoid it, is it going to
get corrected?
Is it just going to come backlater on?
Probably so.
So that is what we did for manyyears was confrontation
(04:30):
avoidance.
Now it's moved and we call itde-escalation.
It's the law enforcementofficers on the street are also
getting trained in de-escalation, along with a lot of other
professions that you probablyhadn't thought of before.
There's nurses going throughde-escalation training,
dispatchers going throughde-escalation training, so it's
(04:51):
not just something thatcorrections is doing.
Another form of de-escalation,of course, is non-lethal or less
lethal de-escalation, and Ifound it really interesting.
As you know, pepperball is oneof my sponsors on the show here
and I also work for Pepperballas a master instructor.
So this last year we went tothe mock riot out in Moundsville
(05:14):
and one of the things I didthere was walk around with a
camera crew and do someinterviews.
They wanted some marketing, soI would go around and ask
questions of the officers thatwere there, the team members
that were there, and I wanted tofind out how they, you know,
worked with Pepper Ball, how itwas working for them.
So I was walking up,introducing myself and just
(05:36):
asking some basic questions, andone of the questions that I
asked was how's this working foryou?
Have you utilized Pepper Balland how's it working for you?
And I found it extremelyinteresting because about 75% of
the time, um, when I talked tothose officers, they told me,
yeah, we love Pepperball, but wedon't get to use it.
(05:57):
And I said what do you mean?
You don't get to use it?
They said, well, as soon as itcomes out, you know, the inmate
goes ahead and cuffs up, givesup, goes ahead and puts their
wrist through the tray slot sothat they can.
You know, restraints can beapplied and so we never use it.
So my question to you is isthat a win?
(06:18):
A lot of staff kind of talkedlike they didn't feel, like that
was a win.
They didn't get to use thesystem.
And my question to you is whatdo you feel?
Is that a win?
We show up with the launcher,the inmate submits to restraints
, goes ahead and cuffs up, we'reable to move on with the day.
(06:40):
Is that a win?
Absolutely that's a win.
That wasn't always the thoughtprocess when I started in this
business.
Confrontation avoidance waswent more like this we had an
inmate who was disruptive,banging on the door, flooding,
breaking light fixtures,whatever.
So we have this inmate that'sdisruptive.
(07:01):
We put a team together and thatwas a rule back then.
Once the team got dressed out,we were going through the door.
We were going to do a use offorce, a physical use of force,
with four to five staff membersto get control of the inmate.
But before that, we, with ourverbal judo and with our
confrontation avoidance, we saidwe're going to de-escalate,
(07:24):
we're going to attemptdeescalation.
Well, I've watched hundreds ofthose use of forces where
someone walks up to the door andthey say inmate, so-and-so, are
you going to cuff up?
No, go to hell.
Co.
Okay, he looks at the cameraand he says inmate refuses to
submit to restraints.
(07:45):
Team up, and now the team'sgoing through the door.
Did we actually try todeescalate that?
Did we look at cause?
Did we have any talking orlistening going on?
Did we take the time to get tothe root of the problem?
We didn't.
We'd already made up our mindwhere this was going because
(08:06):
we'd already invested the time.
We'd already invested ingetting staff off their posts,
dressed out, put in gear, andnow we're going to go through
the door and we're going to dothe use of force.
And when I was young, that wasexciting.
Okay, I'm the lead man on theuse of force team.
We're going through the door.
That was exciting.
But then when I got promoted, Islowed down a little bit on
(08:31):
that because the people I wassending through the door weren't
myself.
I wasn't responsible for my owninjuries and accidents.
I was responsible now for thepeople I sent through the door
and if they got injured, if theyhit their knee on the toilet,
if they fell down and bustedtheir shoulder now I'm
(08:54):
responsible for this.
I sent them through the doorand my brain started asking was
this necessary?
Was this necessary, or is thissomething that I could have
slowed down or improved bytaking the time to try to
de-escalate?
And a lot of times I was theuse of force lieutenant, so I
(09:16):
had that moment while the teamwas getting ready to try to
de-escalate to talk to theinmate.
I won't always say I was greatat it, but I did try to get
better at it.
Is it always incumbent upon theleader of the team to do the
de-escalation?
I say no.
I say anyone in an officialposition can do that
(09:38):
de-escalation.
If you've got a counselor, ifyou've got a psychiatrist doctor
, nurse, um, if you've got acounselor, if you've got a
psychiatrist, doctor, nurse, um,food service worker that you
know is normally his supervisor.
Uh, can we have them attempt todeescalate if that inmate
listens to them more than theylisten to other staff because
they have this?
Uh, you know this workingrelationship.
(10:01):
Absolutely, we can have thosepeople involved.
Deescalation is especially thesedays.
It always probably should havebeen, but especially these days
de-escalation is where we shouldhead for every time.
(10:22):
Because once you pop that door,once you open that door and you
send a team in or you sendthree officers in or whatever
your agency does, there's onlytwo things that you're going to
get out of this.
You're going to get the chanceat liability and the chance at
injury.
We get nothing else from that.
We regain control.
But we're going to regaincontrol.
No matter what right it's ourprison.
(10:43):
We will regain control.
At some point the inmate willbecome compliant, no matter how
far we have to take this.
But what if we could deescalateit?
What if nobody has to go inthere and get hurt, and that
includes the inmate?
The inmate gets hurt.
What's that cost the taxpayers?
It's absolutely going to costthem to have this guy fixed up
(11:06):
because he got smashed on thefloor ran into the bed.
Whatever happens, I can tellyou myself I've got a shoulder
that I go to the doctor and Iget shots in these days because
I landed at the bottom of one ofthose dog piles.
Everybody landed on thatshoulder.
I've got a knee that gives mefits that I take a lot of a
leave for because it's beenbanged into about 400 stainless
(11:28):
steel toilets.
That's part of doing that.
You get the chance at injuryevery time you go through that
door and you're going to beengaging someone who's violent
or out of control or wants tohurt you or wants to hurt
themselves.
So is de-escalation important?
Absolutely, it's the mostimportant thing we do, and
(11:51):
that's not just when somebody'son the door.
We can de-escalate throughoutour day, in the way we carry
ourselves as, the way we carryourselves as a professional, the
way we speak to each other andthe way we speak to the inmates,
the way we treat the inmates.
All these things have to dowith de-escalation.
(12:13):
Have to do with de-escalationBecause once inmates and you can
look back through history ofprisons once inmates are, either
and I'll add this in here oncethey're treated poorly, or if
they have the perception ofbeing treated poorly or if they
have the perception of nothaving their grievances heard.
(12:34):
Those right.
There are the three things thathave started most riots, most
disturbances throughout history.
De-escalation gets rid of a lotof that.
It makes people feel likethey're being heard.
Listening during these timesallows us to understand what the
(12:54):
perceptions are.
Whether they're real or notRight, it's still the perception
.
It's like arguing with a mentalhealth inmate and he has.
He lives in some fantasy worldwhere he thinks he sees, uh, you
know, things that aren'thappening.
You can tell him that that'snot happening, but his
perception is that it ishappening, and you can't him
that that's not happening, buthis perception is that it is
(13:16):
happening and you can't changethat.
So we need to understand theperception.
Once we understand theperception, we can find out
what's causing that, why theyfeel that way, and then address
it and hopefully change it Right.
So what's some of the things wecan do to improve our listening?
(13:40):
You're on that door, theinmates blowed up, a use of
force is possibly imminent.
So what's some of the thingsthat we can do when we approach
that and we're trying tode-escalate?
Well, the first we talked aboutis listening, and I mean really
listening, not standing thereletting it go in one ear and out
(14:03):
the other, but listening,active listening.
Sometimes you may want torepeat some of what they told
you to make to make sure toensure that they feel like
they're being heard right.
Well, the piece of chicken Igot on my tray isn't as big as
everybody else's.
(14:23):
So what you're saying is youfeel like you got shorted on the
tray.
You didn't get as much food onyour tray as other people did.
Is that what I'm hearing?
You know that's activelistening.
One of the other things we cando is be curious.
If you have deescalated verymany inmates, which I have, it
(14:47):
helps to be curious.
A lot of times they don't evenknow why they're upset.
They have feelings which haveturned into possibly rage, anger
, but they don't always knowwhat the root cause of it was.
Just like the chicken example,I got this little bitty piece of
(15:08):
chicken on my tray.
Well, that officer gave it tome.
Now I'm mad at that officer.
That officer didn't pick outwhat size piece of chicken was
going to be on that tray.
For you, that was a luck of thedraw, right.
But now all of your anger andyou're stressed, you're
(15:29):
frustrated, you're locked in thecell.
All of that anger is focused atone person and you're mad at
him, but he's not necessarilythe problem.
The problem occurred a coupleof hours ago in food service
when somebody wasn't payingattention to portion size.
They put it, they put the foodon the trays, the trays get, you
know, food gets cooked, thetrays get loaded and they get
(15:52):
sent over to the unit and nowone inmate's going to get a
smaller piece of chicken.
Well, that didn't have anythingto do with the officer that was
passing it.
It has to do with somethingthat occurred outside of there a
couple hours ago maybe.
So being curious and askingquestions might get you from I
(16:12):
hate that officer to.
This really stems from I'mfrustrated because I got a
smaller piece of chicken thaneverybody else did.
Ask questions, be curious andask questions.
That's one of the things we cando.
Another thing that I find ispeople are scared of silence,
(16:37):
and that's not just duringde-escalation but generally, and
investigators use this ininterrogation techniques.
You know they'll ask a questionand if the suspect doesn't
answer right away, they're notgoing to jump in with another
question, they'll wait.
They'll sit there and they'llwait, because what happens
(16:59):
during that time that suspect'sgetting uncomfortable right and
sooner or later he's going tosay something.
Well, silence can work in manyways.
If I've got a inmate who I'mtrying to deescalate, who I'm
trying to bring down, I'm askingthose questions.
I'm curious and I'm trying toget them to open up and say
(17:21):
something.
There's nothing wrong with alittle bit of silence.
Ask a question.
So how are you feeling thismorning when you woke up?
And then you can wait a coupleof minutes.
You don't have to follow upwith a question immediately.
Give them time to think.
(17:41):
They're not thinking rationallyright now because emotions are
involved.
They're blowed up, they've gotanger, fear, whatever else.
So give them a minute to workthrough that when you ask those
questions and see if you don'tget better answers that get you
(18:01):
closer to the true problem.
One of the other challengesthat I see when people are
de-escalating or even myself.
I was not immune to this,absolutely I wasn't.
But inmates are mastermanipulators.
They have practiced thisprobably before they ever came
to prison.
They grew up in a, in an areaor a gang or a family who
(18:24):
manipulated each other.
That's what caused a lot oftheir problems If they came from
a family or a situation thathad alcohol and drugs in it.
Absolutely, they were involvedwith manipulation of each other.
So they become very skilled inthis, and when you come to the
door, the first thing they'regoing to try to do is push a
button, get you to take the bait.
(18:46):
They want you to get emotionalwith them.
What happens when you getemotional?
Well, once again, just likethem, you don't think rationally
.
Your brain's having feelingsinstead of thoughts, and that's
where they want you, because ifthey can get you upset, they can
(19:08):
control that conversation,can't they?
One of the things I like to readis Marcus Aurelius' Daily
Meditations.
There's a lot of stoicphilosophy in there, and I take
comfort from that and try tolearn from it for myself.
Keep myself calm, right.
(19:29):
But one of the things he saysin there is get inside him, look
at what sort of person he is,and you'll find that you don't
need to strain to impress him.
So what does that mean?
That means when we're on thatdoor and we feel like we've got
to be big and tough.
We feel like we've got to showthem right.
(19:52):
They've gotten in our feelings,they've got our emotions amped
up and we feel like we've got toshow them.
We're the bigger person, right?
Pay attention to who you'rearguing with.
You're not arguing with aperson who's and I'll just say
it this way Some people may notagree.
I'm not arguing with a personwhose opinion of me I value,
(20:16):
right?
So for them to call me a namedoesn't mean too much to me if I
look at who it's coming from.
Now, that's not to say that Idon't treat inmates with the
respect that they have.
Coming because of the job Ihave, because my job is to care
(20:37):
for them and look over them, Iwill give them the respect of a
human being.
I don't respect their opinionand I certainly don't respect
their opinion of me, theiropinion of their self.
If it was better, they probablywouldn't be in the position
they're in.
So their opinion of otherpeople is suspect at best, right
(21:03):
.
So when you're feeling thatcoming up and you're feeling
that emotion and they're pushingyour buttons and you feel like
you're taking the bait, stepback a little bit.
Is this a person?
Is this a person whose opinionmatters to me about me?
Of course not.
(21:23):
So why am I getting upset?
Why am I letting them doexactly what they want to do?
Once they get you emotional.
They control you.
They control the situation andtake a look at your immediate
and your calculated use offorces.
You know this is kind of thesame idea there.
(21:45):
The reason why we don't want todo immediate use of force is
because the inmate controls thetiming.
The inmate controls a lot ofthe emotions.
The inmate controls firststrike Surprise.
A lot of these things can becontrolled by the inmate in an
(22:08):
immediate use of force.
So if at all possible, wealways try to back off and have
a calculated use of force,because that gives us the
advantage.
We will determine the resourcesbrought forward.
We will have plenty of staff.
We will set the time that thishappens.
(22:28):
Be careful when they're tryingto bait you, when they're trying
to anger you, when they'retrying to get the emotions right
.
This is not the time for this.
This is a time for you to askquestions.
This is a time for you tolisten, show empathy.
(22:49):
Wow Boy, a bunch of people justwent oh my gosh, empathy, I
don't have to care for them.
Empathy does not have anythingto do with caring for a person's
feelings.
Empathy is about identifying aperson's feelings.
So don't get caught up in thewords.
(23:11):
You can't have empathy as acorrectional officer.
You should have empathy as acorrectional officer, you know.
Have empathy as a correctionalofficer, you know.
Empathy is a matter of socialawareness, is being able to look
around and see what someoneelse is feeling and understand
(23:32):
how that influences andmotivates their actions.
Does that make sense?
So empathy is not a bad thingand we want to have empathy
towards them.
We can't truly do goodlistening without empathy on our
part.
It's like when you walk on theyard and you have situational
(23:55):
awareness, your backs to thewall, you know what people are
carrying in their hands.
You notice if everything goesquiet in the chow hall.
That's situational awareness.
Social awareness is walkinginto an area and noticing the
emotions that people have andbeing ready to understand those
(24:15):
emotions and how they motivatethose person's actions.
So that's all empathy is.
Don't get scared that empathymeans you have to care for this
inmate, not any more than youwould in any other professional
situation, but you don't have tocare for them personally to be
empathetic.
(24:35):
And finally, one of the lastthings you can do is a little
bit of self reflection, a littlebit of self-awareness and
understand how you come across.
It's tough for us.
We get used to barking orders.
Sometimes Does everything thatyou do come across as barking
(24:56):
and order.
How do you speak to otherpeople?
What's your tone sound like?
Are you sarcastic?
Are you judgmental?
These are things that matter.
People pick up on that.
The same way I was speakingabout you having social
awareness, other people havesocial awareness about you and
(25:20):
your actions.
Your tone, the feelings thatyou have when this is going on
go to the other person and inand those they interact with the
conversation that you're having, this de-escalation
conversation.
If you're not genuine and ifthey feel like you're being
sarcastic, if they don't feellike you're honest, then that's
(25:44):
going to affect the way thisgoes.
So I think that's about it fortoday.
I hope you understand thatde-escalation is one of the most
important things that we can do.
Use of force should always be alast resort and that's not
because I'm an inmate lover.
(26:07):
That's not because of all thesepast things that I heard.
You know they got it coming.
They deserve it, thispunishment mentality.
They got it coming.
They deserve it, thispunishment mentality.
The reason is is, if for noother reason, they're human and
they deserve the respect ofbeing a human being.
(26:28):
And remember the only thing youget for going through the door
on a use of force is a chance ofliability and a chance of
injury, and you don't needeither one of those.
So next time you're sittingthrough a de-escalation class,
hopefully some of these thingswill help you.
Hopefully there are things youcan think about, but hopefully
(26:50):
you'll get something out of thatand understand that
de-escalation is something wecan talk about.
It is something we can embrace.
When we de-escalation issomething we can talk about.
It is something we can embracewhen we de-escalate situations,
it's always a win and it servesus and our agency well.
So let's go have a good day outthere.
When you're going to worktomorrow, walk by somebody, ask
(27:13):
them how their day is going andthen take a minute and listen.
It's the most important thingwe can do for each other inside
is to make someone feel likethey're heard, and it helps you
practice listening skills.
That's it for today.
I hope you enjoyed this episode.
Don't forget to check us out.
These videos are on YouTube.
(27:34):
If you're listening to it audio, so you can go there.
We're on 14 different podcastchannels.
You can go to any one of those.
Whichever one you're listeningfrom, please like and share.
That's how we grow this podcast.
That's how we keep the lightson.
So have a great day.
I would like to take a minuteto thank one of our sponsors
(27:57):
that make the Prison OfficerPodcast possible.
Omni RTLS is a company that I'vebeen working with for the last
year.
I am proud to be part of thisteam of correctional
professionals who have developedthe best real-time locating
system on the market today.
With Omni's real-time locationtechnology, you automatically
know the accurate locations andinteractions of all inmates,
(28:18):
staff and assets anywhere inyour correctional facility, and
you have this information inreal time.
Omni is cutting-edge softwarefor today's jails and prisons.
It is the only way to monitorevery square inch of your
facility while still being PREAcompliant.
Go to wwwomniirtlscom for moreinformation and to make your
(28:39):
facility safer today.
That's wwwomnirtlscom.
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